# Serious about Persian saddle flasks



## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

OK, lets start over, but this time we will be civil and respect the topic of the thread: to provide information about this somewhat mysterious bottle type.. not attack each other, no antagonistic wise cracks.. let's get the skinny on saddle flasks.. clean and neat, no?


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## epackage (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm out Charlie, Marlena was nice enough to send me text and pic's, as for Mark, I'm out....best wishes my friend.....[]


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## TJSJHART (Sep 16, 2010)

ok     ??   i missed something....or .....flash  backs     again....


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## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

We need a thread where the Persian saddle flasks can be discussed in a serious manner. I will not tolerate any mischief on this thread, and I will not name names Jim, but everyone better be on his or her best behaviour. 

 If these flasks are to be understood, you must contribute what you know, not what you don't know...


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## saratogadriver (Sep 16, 2010)

Looks like there is already another thread that has arisen, not so much from the ashes but rather in spite of the ashes.

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/%22CAMEL-JUG%3F%3F%3F%22/m-11648/tm.htm


 FWIW, these things DO seem to crawl out of the woodwork in some quantity, don't they?



 Jim G


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## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

Yes, I noticed.. well, let's see which thread survives.. if there can't be two...


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## saratogadriver (Sep 16, 2010)

There was some stuff that arose in the now awol thread that was of some value.   

 Can someone re-post the add from the 70's?   I don't have that one.

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320588711181&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 Marlena aka blueglass1's ebay posting.

 http://www.glasskisser.com/REPROS.html

 glasskisser link

 http://www.cosbert.com/bottles/collection2002/view_persian_flask100p1.html

 A persian saddle flask from a collection, saying maybe persia, maybe austria.

 http://www.bottlebooks.com/questions/December2001/december_2001_questions_ask_digg.htm

 What Digger Odell has to say on the subject.

 I can't find the link now to the one museum that had a persian saddle flask listed on the web.   They said persian, circa 1700, but also said their listing was incomplete on the bottle.   

 I've already asserted elsewhere, I've owned two since the 1970s, with one coming from a rural VT picker who did not try to tell me it was anything particular other than an old bottle.

 Jim G


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## epackage (Sep 16, 2010)

The ad from Old Bottles Magazine....


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## potstone (Sep 16, 2010)

Thanks Charles, I think being civil is the best approach. As for the Persian saddle flask I have often looked at them wondering myself about there history. As collectors of early glass and bottles, I think I would consider most collectors students of early glass. I enjoy studying early glass but I
 donâ€™t draw any lines on where the glass was manufactured. I have invested large amounts of money on reference material covering glass manufacture through out Europe and the Mediterranean areas. The one geographic area in which I need reference material on is the Middle Eastern region. With out that information I cannot and will not make any assumptions on the manufacture and age of the Persian saddle flask. We all know for the most part the earliest glass production was in Egypt and Mesopotamia.
 The production was basically simple in technique but never the less it was made there approx. 3500 BC.
 It was about 27 BC to 14 AD Syrian craftsman created glass blowing , a major advancement. Basically
 What I am trying to say is the Middle Eastern region of the world has been producing blown glass
 long before any other region. I am sure large quantities of a particular type and style vessel would have been produced through the centuries. Look how many Onion bottles are floating around. I also consider the climate in the Middle Eastern Region along with the nomadic life style of many natives. Wouldn't you think other then large leather pouches for carrying liquids, multiple glass containers would
 have been needed for travel through the large arid regions? This is only speculation on my part and until I acquire the needed reference material that would be helpful I guess I will just keep wondering.
 Greg


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## saratogadriver (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks epackage.   Sadly, I consider this the best evidence against these bottles having any great age or value.  The story is just too hokey.   This ad smacks of "we got a crate of these turkeys from turkey..."

 Allegedly, Marlena aka blueglass1 has the bottle that was given to the Queen.   I'd like to see a pick of that, with the museum documentation.   THAT would be some real evidence.

 Jim G

 P.S.   I can't imagine anyone going to DC to engage in a fight.  By the time you get done fighting traffic, you'd just be too dang tuckered to fight.   Drink maybe..., but not fight...    LOL!

 Jim G


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## kungfufighter (Sep 17, 2010)

> Allegedly, Marlena aka blueglass1 has the bottle that was given to the Queen.   I'd like to see a pick of that, with the museum documentation.   THAT would be some real evidence.


 
 Really Jim?  Not for me.  Granny labels can be great fun and at times informative (if penned by Nina Fletcher Little, Lura Woodside Watkins, et al) but I have seen many such labels with obviously incorrect information and others that are simply faked.  I'm of the opinion that one should always look at the object first and consider any ancillary information second.  That's not to say that I necessarily discredit provenance, simply that one should primarily consider the object itself.  Major publications by museum related authors (Barlow, Hunter and Barrett to name a few) contain numerous errors and some outright fabrications.  Again, not questioning anyone or any specific object, simply saying that the written word alone, even with museum documentation is not necessarily the end all be all.

 For what it's worth, I agree with Marlena and others that there is a clear distinction between to the so-called Persian saddle bottles (which I do think are "antiques") and the novelty junk that was at one time sold as "boarding weapons."


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## cyberdigger (Sep 17, 2010)

Yes I am serious. Not saying we can't be jokers, but no potty mouth and no personal put-downs is all.. the fact is, whether everyone likes it or not, these bottles are around and some people collect them. It would be embarrassing if every time someone came along with a question or comment about them, we collectively jump on it and trash the thread. We don't all need to like or admire all types of bottles, but there should not be selective intolerance on this forum. Nuff said.


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## kungfufighter (Sep 17, 2010)

> Yes I am serious. Not saying we can't be jokers, but no potty mouth and no personal put-downs is all.. the fact is, whether everyone likes it or not, these bottles are around and some people collect them. It would be embarrassing if every time someone came along with a question or comment about them, we collectively jump on it and trash the thread. We don't all need to like or admire all types of bottles, but there should not be selective intolerance on this forum. Nuff said.


 Well said Charlie!


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## TJSJHART (Sep 17, 2010)

Well Charlie knows how to say it when it needs to be said..enough said....[]


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## cyberdigger (Sep 17, 2010)

Who da man!?

 Know what?  that long, weird thread that got kaputt-skied yesterday was enough to make me appreciate these more now.. tho I still have never seen one in person.. at least when I do encounter one, I will know everything there is to know about it already...


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

INFO:
 Hi. I recently purchased a saddle flask, supposedly antique and of Asian > > origin. I am trying to find an authority on this subject so that I might > > better understand the origin of this piece. I am wondering if you might > > be able to point me in the direction of such a person. > > > > I would be happy to send digital photographs if necessary. > > > > Thanks in advance for your consideration > > > > Tom Pesacreta
_
 These so-called Persian Saddle Flasks have an obscure history. Not much has been written about them. There was some debate as to whether these were ever produced in America. One was found in a grave dating 1814. In general, these bottles date from the 17th and 18th century. Some were certainly used as saddle flasks. They are surprisingly common. Most, like yours, are crude and beautifully colored. Digger _ 



 http://www.glasskisser.com/REPROS.html



 http://www.cosbert.com/decanters_flasks.html


 Saddle Flask c.1700

 Origin: Persian

 Colour: Emerald green

 Dimensions: Height 9.00in Body Width 7.5in Base Width 4.0 inches 

 Lip: Applied string rim/pouring lip

 Base: Kick-up blowpipe pontil scar

 Source: London. England

 Condition: Excellent. Typical surface wear 

 Special features: 
 These saddle flasks with applied neck-rings and blowpipe pontil scar are usually attributed to Persia but could also be from Austria. 



 http://www.thepriceguide.com.au/index.cfm/item/22725-turquoise-green-glass-persian-saddle-flask-free-blown-form-with/



 http://www.mapleleafauctions.com/Auction25/111-120.html

 113 Early Saddle Flask.

 This is an early Persian saddle flask in a great teal colour. Thought by some to be products of the 1700s. Given the number which survive, it is likely these had a long production. This example is excellent. No chips or cracks. Huge nasty pontil! A nice crude coloured flask.

 Opening Bid: $50
 Estimated Range: $60-100

 Sold for $120.




 http://www.bottleauctions.com/news/naval-deck-sweeper-and-naval-boarding-weapon/

 http://reviews.ebay.com/FAKE-DECK-SWEEPERS_W0QQugidZ10000000002803892


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

as can be plainly seen: the Persian saddle flasks and deck sweepers/boarding weapons have nothing in common...
 The saddle flasks have a history, according to one site (Digger O'Dell's) dating back to at least 1814. The deck sweepers/boarding weapons are about 2-3 years old.


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

This seems authentic to me>


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

the next pix are suspect/suspicious as they resemble the Persian flasks...*resemble.*


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

boarding weapon/deck sweeper


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

boarding weapon/deck sweeper


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

boarding weapon/deck sweeper


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

another suspicious flask:


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## whiskeyman (Sep 19, 2010)

what I mean by suspicious: looking at my 1st Persian flask...note how *tight * the threads are around the neck? Note the "sandy" pontil scar and also "sand" deposits on the threading?
  All missing on the other flasks.



 the other thread about these: >>
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/%22CAMEL-JUG%3F%3F%3F%22/m-11648/tm.htm


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## KentOhio (Sep 25, 2010)

Here's a picture of one in London, in the British Museum:
www.offexploring.com/lovebirds/albums/in-london-lets-go-to-egypt/8089736

 They say it's from Iran, maybe Shiraz, and 18th century.


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## RED Matthews (Sep 25, 2010)

The link didn't work for me.  RED M.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 25, 2010)

try this...
 http://offexploring.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/lovebirds/photos/210910-DSCF1373.JPG


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