# Onion Bottle - Info Request



## Robert (Sep 6, 2013)

Hi Forum
 I'm new to this forum and to bottles in general. I once thought everybody I ever saw on TV enthusing about bits of glass were ready for the nut hole. BUT after finding this at the local flea market, I'm converted! Just holding it and knowing it could have been made a couple or three hundred years ago, has sunk to the bottom of the sea at some point then been hauled out again to end up at a flea market - and is still intact - well, the thing deserves a bit of respect for sure! My questions now to you doyens of sand and silica are thus: Is it old or is it old tat? Is there any way to tell from whence it hails? Do I call my local branch of the UBS and tell them to expect a visit? What is the best way to look look after it (iridescent bits are flaking off in my hand!)?
 Here are a few details: The glass is green when held up to the light, although this is difficult to see when light is shining on it rather than through it because it has layers and layers of iridescent material (similar to mother-of-pearl) on the surface. It seems to be in perfect condition - although the lip is a bit crusty therefore hard to tell for sure, but there are certainly no cracks etc. It measures 6.3 inches (16 cm) high and 5.9 inches (15 cm) accross the base and weighs ca. 850g (smaller than most of the ones I've found on the net so far - perhaps this will help with dating and origin?) I've included an image and hope you guys (and gals?) can help me  Thanks in advance! 
 p.s. I have more images but I can't seem to upload more than one...


----------



## fer_de_lance (Sep 6, 2013)

Robert,
              wine bottle circa 1710, the beveled string rim appears to be of English manufacture but body has a Dutch like shape, please send photo of bottom so we can view the pontil mark and that should determine origin. Also include shoulder height(from base to where shoulder starts to curve).I don't know if there is any way to stop the flaking other than to handle as little as possible. All that said it is a very nice example of what is typically called a black glass onion.

                                                                       cheers!
                                                                          Tim


----------



## cacarpetbagger (Sep 6, 2013)

Nice early onion for sure.  Likely English or dutch in origin dating around 1700 to 1730.  Not much you can do about the flaking as far as I know, polishing would not improve it in my opinion.  Enjoy it as is.


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 6, 2013)

Welcome to the forum, Robert!

 My opinion is.. 1700's Dutch onion. Could've been made in 1710 or 1780 or anywhere in between.. this was the primary wine/liquor bottle design of that period, and I'm gonna say it was made in continental Europe, probably in a north German principality.

 I believe its design made it popular on board sailing vessels, which tended to lean to and fro, so you can imagine the advantage of it not being easy to tip over.. the patina looks very nice on this one, be careful with it and don't try to clean it. Bottles like this in pristine condition usually bring around $100, but some might argue the nicely mineralized ones are more aesthetically rewarding.


----------



## Robert (Sep 6, 2013)

WOW! I haven't even finished my glass of wine and you guys are coming at me - fantastic! This must be one of the most active forums I've ever been in! Below is an image of the pontil mark. And if I've understood correctly the shoulder height (this is just the height of the bulbous part at the bottom?) is 3.14 - 3.34 inches (8 - 8.5 cm) high.


----------



## Robert (Sep 6, 2013)

And here is a close view of the rim...


----------



## fer_de_lance (Sep 6, 2013)

Robert,
 it looks Dutch or German to me which  are small circular scars. Nice photos.

                                I hope you continue in your search for more bottles.


----------



## epackage (Sep 6, 2013)

Fantastic onion, don't EVER clean it!!! Welcome to the forum.. Jim


----------



## Steve/sewell (Sep 6, 2013)

Great find Robert ,the pinnacle of the hobby. I used to be in the camp all bottles of this nature were European manufactured,.......however recent investigation by myself into a 100 year multiple Dutch based glass blowing operations right out of the Big Apple when it was New Amsterdam from 1640 right through the mid 1700s offer a different perspective,and we may (should) have to re- think and pause for a moment as to the origin of some of these vessels not always being stamped continental in nature. 

 While it is likely a product of Dutch manufacture and I agree with both Tim and Chuck in regards to dates of manufacture and I am in the camp the type of blow pipe pontil mark seen on your bottle fits either the Germans or Dutch as either of these makers used this type of empontiling.  Dutch and German were precisely the origin and heritage of all of the glass factory's operating out of the Big Apple.

 Tim I need pictures for my web site contact me I would like to include your onion Bottles  Thanks Steve

 Links to my website  

 http://historical-american-glass.com/new-york-state-early-glass.html

 http://historical-american-glass.com/newburgh-glass-house-co-1751-1759.html

 http://historical-american-glass.com/brooklyn-glass-house-co-1754-1758.html

 http://historical-american-glass.com/glass-house-farm-glass-house-co-1758-1783.html


----------



## Bass Assassin (Sep 6, 2013)

Congratulations on your find and glad to see you rescued it from a flea market. What a lovely bottle


----------



## botlguy (Sep 6, 2013)

Welcome Robert. I certainly cannot add to our experts analysis regarding age and country of manufacture of your DROP DEAD GORGEOUS onion but the size and patina are, in my opinion, superior. I am in the camp of:  " Please do not clean it". If one wants nice, clean examples of similar ware they are available but once cleaned these beautiful examples are gone forever. We can't reproduce THAT look. (Thank God)

 Congratulations on your find, Good Luck on your quest for additional treasure.


----------



## timmy (Sep 6, 2013)

WOW! AWESOME!


----------



## sandchip (Sep 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Fantastic onion, *don't EVER clean it!!!* Welcome to the forum.. Jim


 
 Yeah, what Jim said!  That patina is as beautiful as any I've ever seen.  Gorgeous bottle!


----------



## reach44 (Sep 7, 2013)

That thing aged into quite a beauty.  Nice buy.  Definitely no cleaning for that one.  Just lots of admiration.


----------



## Robert (Sep 7, 2013)

You guys are great! I would normaly wait weeks for such a number of replies and I got them here within a day! A masive thank you for your knowledge, advice, enthusiasm and admiration. I'm glad my instincts were right and I picked up that sweet black onion from that there dirt - it (he? she?) will remain uncleaned and I'll certainly be on the look out for more in the future!! Btw - I found it in Switzerland, so it could be Dutch or German.

 Oh - just one more thing can anybody put it into context for me? Somebody mentioned above it would have been on a ship (hence the celeverly thought-out, flat-bottomed design) I assume then it would have been swilled by the crew rather than transported as cargo?

 Thanks again guys!
 Robert


----------



## botlguy (Sep 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  Robert
> 
> Oh - just one more thing can anybody put it into context for me? Somebody mentioned above it would have been on a ship (hence the celeverly thought-out, flat-bottomed design) I assume then it would have been swilled by the crew rather than transported as cargo?
> 
> ...


 Not necessarily, could have been either or both. Methinks the preferred Adult beverage of seafarers is Old Demon Rum. (or whatever is at hand)


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 7, 2013)

I kinda picture the officers on board using these bottles while the poor crew had to settle for a ladle of grog from a barrel.. and yeah they were probably often shipped as cargo to colonies as well. I don't think the design was deliberately thought out for use on ships, seems to me it's just about the easiest form to create a free-blown bottle ..bear in mind my input is pure conjecture, I wasn't around at the time... []


----------



## fer_de_lance (Sep 7, 2013)

so now that you have revealed that bottle was found in Europe that decreases the possibility that it was manufactured in North America although trade with the colonies did occur. After comparing it to my small collection of Dutch onions, I now am leaning towards a German origin as the body is of a more bulbous form.The discussion of why they made these bottles with such a low center of gravity was no doubt due to them finding the earlier Shaft and Globe form(see photo) was subject to breakage due the height to base width ratio. As17th century foreign trade grew it actually had the opposite affect on the bottle form as illustrated in the photo I posted earlier, the body of bottles became taller and smaller in diameter for packaging purposes. The wider more stable forms were probably preferred onboard ship but I've always thought due to a premium on space usage that they would have had their primary store of wine/rum in a large barrel or keg and each of the crew would draw from using a vessel that would be less susceptible to breakage than a glass vessel.


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 7, 2013)

There happens to be a book about these on ebay, a few copies left: CLICK HERE


----------



## andy volkerts (Sep 7, 2013)

Really great article on these types of bottles and others, made in New York around 1640 or so. Check it out at   www.peachridgeglass.com


----------



## Robert (Sep 15, 2013)

you've all been a great help - thank you so much! wish you all the best with your collections and the best of luck finding those little glass treasures!
 Robert


----------

