# A Stone Soda ?



## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

I found this bottle in an ancient dump many moons ago.....It's a small size (8" tall) and multi sided (12 sides) pottery "stone bottle".........debossed _D.L.Ormsby (a star) 1849_......... _with  pressed by W.Smith_  on a shield at the base........If one is to find gold rush stuff in California....lets have it dated 1849...it certainly works for me.

 Light does not pass through this bottle (well duh) but I proudly display it with several other colored sodas....I mean "really" debossed 1849......

 The bottle is dead mint.


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

That's unusual! [:-]


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

He has alot of bottles on sodasandbeers.com, including this exact example, apparently he was a NY bottler/brewer

 http://www.sodasandbeers.com/SABSearchResults.aspx?Source=Firms&Firm=51196&SourceDesc=Ormsby%2c+Dorman+L.


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

He has them listed as early as 1847, that would be a nice run of dated stones to own...[]


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

In fact, that pic is the same one that appears in Tod's listing for bottle 51196AI ..why were we not informed sooner?? []


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> In fact, that pic is the same one that appears in Tod's listing for bottle 51196AI


 That's what I meant in my first post...[]


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

I realize that, but I felt it was such an important point to make, I reiterated.. with additional evidence.. []


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

[]


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

Why yes....Tod was so kind to put this bottle in sodas & beers....Thought you-all might wanna see it on this forum....He has also added several other bottles I have found on the West Coast.....Thought I would add them to the data bank as well as share them here....I have a one of a kind Golden Gate soda from San francisco....that is also on Sodas & beers....should I be hesitant to post?

   Personally, I look forward to your posts & pics....Kinda like going to a bottle show on the computer.


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

cyberdigger....evidence of what?  Hmmmmmm, wonder what-cha thinking? And the point you made is what?


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

No worries, we're just proud of ourselves that we realized it was the same pic.. derp.. we're well accustomed to sharing images for archival websites like TOds, as well as including them in threads, it's part of every day life.. here's a pic of a tough to find blob I will soon list on the New Jersey bottle site:


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## tigue710 (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Potlidboy
> 
> I have a one of a kind Golden Gate soda from San francisco....


 

 uhhh, can we see that please?!


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I just checked it out Matt, it's a jaw dropper...[&:]


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

[]


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## tigue710 (Aug 4, 2012)

yes sir, I like it a lot!


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

I think it's this one Chuckles...[]


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

I like the one with the shark tooth better.. [&:]


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

WoW you guys are good.....I don't even have to post my own bottles now, lol....

 Matt  whatcha think of the golden Golden Gate???


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## NYCFlasks (Aug 4, 2012)

W. Smith was a potter in NYC at this time, and he patented a method of pressing these stone bottles.  A common mark is "Pat. Pressed W. Smith" or "Pat. Pressed W. Smith Greenwich NY".  He also produced the typical jugs, crocks and jars of the era.


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry to break the news but D. L. Ormsby is a nyc bottle, the stoneware is actually 1870s (1869-1874), and I know Ive seen them before, and Ive got the glass versions too:










 Its a $20.00 stoneware, would love to buy it if your willing to sell.

 Thanks, HH, Mike


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> Sorry to break the news but D. L. Ormsby is a nyc bottle, the stoneware is actually 1870s (1869-1874), and I know Ive seen them before, and Ive got the glass versions too:


 So he wasn't making them in 1847, 48, 49 & 50 ?? What are those numbers for Mike?


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

Sooo I'll  reverse the offer.......I'll buy your dated D L Ormsby stone bottles all day for $20..00 a piece....I'd like an 1848 & 1847 please.....

 Oh & by the way...Yes that appears to be a much newer Ormsby....I bet he was bottling soda a loooooong time.


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Potlidboy
> 
> Sooo I'll  reverse the offer.......I'll buy your dated D L Ormsby stone bottles all day for $20..00 a piece....I'd like an 1848 & 1847 please.....
> 
> Oh & by the way...Yes that appears to be a much newer Ormsby....I bet he was bottling soda a loooooong time.


 []


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

I'll pay $21 for a perfect one.. []


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

Darn....and now there will be a bidding war. ......I'm feeling the love.


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> Sorry to break the news but D. L. Ormsby is a nyc bottle, the stoneware is actually 1870s (1869-1874), and I know Ive seen them before, and Ive got the glass versions too:


 Mike here are the dates & locations I have for Ormsby...

 Dorman L. Ormsby, Brewer & Root Beer Maker (253/255 West 16th Street) 1853-1854

 Dorman L. Ormsby (Readdressed to 423/425 West 16th Street) 1866-1873

 Dorman L. Ormsby & Son 1873-1875

 Closed in 1875


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

There's also this post about Ormsby being in business earlier as you can see, sadly the link showing these dates from the Potomac Bottle club no longer works, NCbred was the original poster...This seems to make alot of sense considering the dated stonewares from 1847-50[]

*Dorman L. Ormsby was in business as a bottler at 255 West 16th Street in Manhattan from 1844 to 1860. 

 Ormsby either moved after that date or the street numbers changed as the business from 1860 to 1874 was primarily listed at 423 West 16th Street. 

 Ormsby appears to have quit the trade in 1876. 

 Over these years, the business was listed as D.L. Ormsby with and without the "Son." * 


 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-344921/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#344921


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

I just found the Rosetta Stone on Ormsby and when he started brewing and bottling, here is the real scoop...[]


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## Potlidboy (Aug 4, 2012)

epackage....you're an animal......!


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Potlidboy
> 
> epackage....you're an animal......!


 Thanks, I've been many things on this site, some not nearly as flattering as that...[]


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

I know full well what I said, no need for pointing out, I was at a very large nyc collectors house last week, he has the full ormsby set. Say what you want, true he did make stoneware in ealier years (as I fully well know from what ive gathered on my own website) but those bottles are much different, one line near the top of the neck that said "ormsby" is the oldest variant. There are actually 5 different ormsby stonewares and this one is the fourth in line. Just stating facts, if you dont like it get off my case.

 Just because i have an 1890s blob top that says registered 1866 doesnt mean it was made that year or anywhere close.


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

http://mikesbottleroom.weebly.com/

 read for yourself under the "Blob Tops: Manhattan" page what I have on ormsby


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

Well you're taking this all wrong, I guess your dates are right and the info I found is wrong??....This might be why people question you like you asked in the other post when you mentioned being fedup. I wasn't getting on your back I was just doing research Mike, you need to be able to admit that you don't know everything, hell nobody does....[8|]


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> 
> Just because i have an 1890s blob top that says registered 1866 doesnt mean it was made that year or anywhere close.


 A registered glass bottle and a stamped stoneware are two very different animals Mike...


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> There are actually 5 different ormsby stonewares and this one is the fourth in line. Just stating facts, if you dont like it get off my case.


 While you know of 5 Tod has 10 listed on his site, 7 before the Son and 3 including the Son...


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

D.L. Ormsby & Son
 Address: 423 W. 16th st.

 Dorman L. Ormsby's first address was in use from 1844 to 1860 at 255 W. 16th st. His second was used from 1860 to 1874 at 423 W. 16th st. The company's third address was used from 1876 to the early 1900s at 168th st east of Amsterdam ave. and succeeded by his son. The company closed down in the early 1900s.


 Dormann L. Ormsby - A.B. Co.
 Address: 168th st. east of Amsterdam ave.

 Dormann L. Ormsby changed his brewery locations every 20 years or so and quit the business in 1876. This bottle variant is made by his son. The older variants would have "& Son" in the name. The company went out of business in the early 1900s.


 ^^^ Quoted directly from my website. This particular stoneware was the fourth in line made in the late 1860s-early 1870s. So wheat I said before, I knew full well what I was talking about.


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## cyberdigger (Aug 4, 2012)

So where did the $20 price tag come from?


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

I take offense to the "getting on your back" comment... I collect from a tiny area compared to NYC and I'm at it night and day and I learn new stuff every day, and I'm also proven wrong on a regular basis. So for you to think you know everything there is to know about NYC bottles, even when shown the proof that you were wrong, is just maddening....You're really pissing me off here...[]


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

the $20 came from what I was told they were worth / how much theyve gone on ebay in the past


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

What in your writeup shows this bottle was made in the 1860's???????????????? I am missing something here....


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

and epack I understand where your coming from and that comment wasnt direct towards you it was directed towards potlid for saying this:

 "Sooo I'll reverse the offer.......I'll buy your dated D L Ormsby stone bottles all day for $20..00 a piece....I'd like an 1848 & 1847 please..... 

 Oh & by the way...Yes that appears to be a much newer Ormsby....I bet he was bottling soda a loooooong time."


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

I see nothing that says this bottle was made anytime after 1849, so I'll go with that was when it was made, there's nothing that I see that shows it was made at a later date with 1849 stamped in it...

 It just doesn't add up that there would be an 1847, 48, 49 & 50 yet they were made at later dates, oh well. I can't get my blood pressure jacked up over this crap...


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

According to: New York City Beer bottles (I have the book on my lap as I type this)

 "On this page there are 5 different ormsby bottles that might have contained beer. As is the case with a lot of early bottles, Ormsby also bottled sodas, flavored beers, mineral waters, and ciders for many years. The majority of bottles, especially the stonewares, probably once contained beer and are included. However THE ONLY FIVE CONFIRMED BEER/PORTER & ALE VARIATIONS are shown on the preceding pages.

 This type of stoneware bottle was made and distributed in 1/2 pints, pints, quart sized bottles. Originally they were made by Washington Smith, a prominent Manhattan potter. Smith was one of the few potters that manufactured molded sided beers.
 Most date from the mid-19th century 1849-1876" On the same page are listed pictures of the 5 stonewares in question

 ^^^ QUOTED FROM THE BOOK it has pictures of all of the stonewares

 In this book are also examples of the 1850s pontil porters made by ormsby. Although true there could be more stoneware versions listed like you said Epack, only 5 examples have been confirmed to exist.


 Like I said, the date printed on the stoneware does not necessarily reflect the date it was made, I have 1890s blobs with an 1866 registration date, thats only the patent date, not the date it was made.


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> 
> Like I said, the date printed on the stoneware does not necessarily reflect the date it was made, I have 1890s blobs with an 1866 registration date, thats only the patent date, not the date it was made.


 I could buy that argument if he didn't do it for 4 years running, and where in what you're reading says that the 1849 pictured was made at a later date....You didn't post anything that says that from what you're reading...


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 4, 2012)

I think im not going to post comments with info anymore. This is a site where people post bottles asking for info that no one seems to later want. Also no one seems to even look at my website for info and im just quoted from "other pages"

 This is the last im going to say I quoted the book on this one and this is the last time im going to reply because I know im right.

 I know its the fourth because it (the book) has the pictures of the stonewares IN ORDER OF PRODUCTION, and the one that was posted on this thread is fourth in the book.

 Good Night


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

I ain't buying it, it makes no sense to me, I believe it was made in 1849, and I believe the ones stamped 1847 were made in 1847 and so on.... Please post pics from the book so I can better understand what you're trying to show me, either it's not getting from your fingers to my brain or I need to see what you mean for myself...


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Im not going to anger myself with this anymore, believe what you want, and let the owner of the bottle believe what he wants


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  NyDigger1
> 
> Im not going to anger myself with this anymore, believe what you want, and let the owner of the bottle believe what he wants


 I'm just trying to understand what your seeing and basing your statement on, your website doesn't help with this matter, there aren't any of his stoneware bottles shown there. Can't you post a pic of the page you're looking at?


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## Potlidboy (Aug 5, 2012)

epackage....phew...this whole thread went sideways....I believe it was made in 1849 as well......oh well.

 NYdigger1.....My offer still stands (really) I would like to buy other debossed years of the Ormsby stone bottles....dude you've got to chill....no one here is trying to offend you.


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

It just makes no sense to me, we know he was in business as early as 1836, what was he using for bottles in 1847, 48, 49 & 50 if not the ones stamped with that date?? Why would a patent be taken out in those years yet the bottles weren't stamped that way until 20 years later?? I wish I had the book Mike is looking at because I can't fathom what is being said without seeing what he's seeing, I'm very confused...[:-]


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## RICKJJ59W (Aug 5, 2012)

wow you dudes are out of your freaking minds [:-]


 Scan the pix already  "NYDigger" scan,save send.


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## Wheelah23 (Aug 5, 2012)

Mike, you're way too dogmatic about your NYC bottle stuff... I don't see any evidence this bottle is from any year but 1849... And $20 seems like way too low a price for such an early bottle. I don't mean to offend you but you're gonna have to change your ways if you want to have success in this hobby! [:-]


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RICKJJ59W
> 
> wow you dudes are out of your freaking minds [:-]
> 
> ...


 I was out of my mind loooooooooooooooooooooong before this post rick....LOL

 This is just a minor detour in the madness that's in my head...[8D]


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## RICKJJ59W (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

   I can relate [8D]


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## tigue710 (Aug 5, 2012)

the form is a type that was popular in the 1840's, and went out of use for the most part after the 50's.  The date is usually the year of production on stoneware, and the fact that there is a serious of dates points to a line of production years...



 Now as for that green golden gate I thought that was nice but was wondering what was special about it... now this yellow amber one, no question!

 Mike, there was a guy at our club meeting a few months ago who brought in a yellow green one with amber swirls through out!  It was dug in the 1970's in a town named for its early shingle machine






> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> I think it's this one Chuckles...[]


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## RICKJJ59W (Aug 5, 2012)

Send your pictures to dear ole captain Noah send today,send right away!


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## RICKJJ59W (Aug 5, 2012)

I think Chuck has an alarm rigged up to detect when there is trouble brewing on ABN. You were sleeping, were you not you chuck?  lol


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## tigue710 (Aug 5, 2012)

"series of dates", wish we could edit longer on here


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## cyberdigger (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RICKJJ59W
> 
> I think Chuck has an alarm rigged up to detect when there is trouble brewing on ABN. You were sleeping, were you not you chuck?  lol


 
 I just hope someone wakes me up when it's over.. [8D]


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

I did find this writeup on Smith, but it doesn't really move the story forward...

 Production of sided stoneware bottles continued for many years but only two other potters left their mark on sided ware besides Washington Smith and Edwin Merrill. Smithâ€™s earliest dated, sided bottle, is marked â€œD.L. Ormsby / 1847.â€ Dorman Leonard Ormsby was a brewer from Manhattan who operated from 1847 to 1873. A later marked example carries the date â€œ1849â€ with a â€œStarâ€ and at the base the â€œPatent / Pressed / W. Smithâ€ within a shield. 
 Smith may have been working on the same type of molding process as the Merrill brothers, as Merrillâ€™s first patent was granted on July 31, 1847, and Smithâ€™s earliest dated bottle is marked â€œ1847â€. It is unclear why no patent record is found in Smithâ€™s name. Smithâ€™s use of the term â€œPatent / Pressedâ€ and â€œPatent / Issuedâ€ begs an explanation. It is interesting to speculate on the possibility of these two potters working together to perfect this process, though no written records point in that direction. Their timing may be just coincidence, but Edwin Merrill and his brother Calvin were first to make a record of this effort at the patent office.


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

Smith was in business making things out of clay since 1833, here's a billhead of his...


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2012)

And with that I am done, I wish potlid luck in finding other dates, this is just painful...[:-]


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Im sorry everyone, Epack was right on this one, I just did some additional research, there was a misprint in the book. Everyone again, Im sorry.


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## tigue710 (Aug 5, 2012)

It's all good,  A good debate is far from a bad thing.

 You don't tug on super mans cape, spit in the wind...


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 BUT there is one matter left in all of this, 

 Carobroan if you have something else to say spit it out, this is the second time youve made a rude comment on one of these threads, Ive never talked to you, never done anything to you, so why dont you just back off? Its like my parents taught me, if you dont have nothing nice to say, dont say it at all.


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## RICKJJ59W (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> 
> It's all good,  A good debate is far from a bad thing.
> 
> You don't tug on super mans cape, don't spit in the wind...


 

 You don't pull the mask off that ol' Lone Ranger
 And you don't mess around with Jim"Epackage" []


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## NyDigger1 (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
> 
> I understand now why no digging groups will let you dig with them.


 
 wow a low blow, you want to go there? and you're wrong by the way.

 w/e I wont waste my time on you, not worth the effort


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## Plumbata (Aug 5, 2012)

*RE: A Stoned Soda ?*







 Man, I sure am glad that I have better things to do nowadays than argue with y'all. Things like earning a living while sitting in the garage drinking beer, chain-smoking and listening to the radio. Argued plenty during my stay here but with experience comes nuggets of wisdom, and they suggest that the primary impetus behind a heated exchange like this and many others has less to do with establishing unequivocal and impartial fact, and much more to do with "winning" and thus asserting intellectual/informational dominance over another for base, crude, uninspired personal gratification and social edification. 

 But I had to argue, stomp on toes, and be a general arrogant ass for a while before i figured out why it was immature and unbecoming. Part of the learning and self-discovery process I guess.

 The problem with presenting oneself as an informational or intellectual authority figure is that there will always be someone more informational or intellectual out there. Or muckrakers who will seek to bring you down in some other manner. Below is an example of how a big ego can get ya into trouble (may have related it before). 

 My dad had a female, eugenically-minded co-worker who told him years ago "My IQ is 120. If I was pregnant and knew that my child would have an IQ less than 100, I would have it aborted"

 My dad, a quick-witted and arrogant arse himself at the time, took offense and quickly shot back "Well, My IQ is 160, and if I knew I would have a child with an IQ less than _*140*_, I would have _*it*_ aborted!"

 This shut her up quick and apparently permanently, as he never spoke with her again. But if DaVinci was in the room, he could say "My IQ is 205, so I'd abort the whole damn lot of ya!" []

 So whether they know it or not, in the end everyone who gets sucked into a pointless argument comes out looking like a raging idiot, and it may indeed be the case that the resemblance goes far, far deeper than the surface. Best to just stay out, watch, eat your popcorn, and deprive onlookers the opportunity to observe you at your worst, as that will comprise the majority of their impression of you afterward.


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## bostaurus (Aug 5, 2012)

*RE: A Stoned Soda ?*

Youngsters and testosterone...I love menfolk but you can get your hackles up over the simplest things especially when you are young and feeling your oats.

 Great research Jim and I always love your posts Plum.


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## Potlidboy (Aug 5, 2012)

*RE: A Stoned Soda ?*

Has the dust cleared????   You know, I'm new to the forum, a long time bottle affectionado.......Does this sort of small mindedness go on often?  Come on kids play nice.....As to the positive information that was presented here....thank you epackage, tigue710, cyberdigger..........You-all make this hobby a better place.


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## cyberdigger (Aug 5, 2012)

*RE: A Stoned Soda ?*

Sorry the 'outbreak' had to occur on your post.. you never know when the madness will strike! [&:]  Please don't take any of it personally.. I would just delete this thread if it didn't have a lot of good info mixed in there.. maybe I will try some surgery on it.. []


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## tigue710 (Aug 5, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RICKJJ59W
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Nice, Rick got it!  lol

 I'm known for an occasional out burst Mike, it takes quite a lot to get me there as I operate on the bases that all people are good and honest and end up very disappointed and disgruntled when I learn that isnt true in some cases...  Other times I just say whats on my mind without any filtration...  I dont think its a bad thing but it gets taken the wrong way more often then not...


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## NYCFlasks (Aug 5, 2012)

I found the information on the Merrill brothers and Washington Smith to be very useful.  Having collected stoneware for about 40 years, I was not aware of the involvement of the Merrill's until now.
    In spite of the sandbox antics, a very useful and informative thread.  Thanks!


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## surfaceone (Aug 6, 2012)

A couple more recent Merrills for contrasting.

Smith vs. Merrill.


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## cowseatmaize (Aug 6, 2012)

> I found the information on the Merrill brothers and Washington Smith to  be very useful.  Having collected stoneware for about 40 years, I was  not aware of the involvement of the Merrill's until now.


There was info on that? Was it this?
 Production of sided stoneware bottles continued for many years but only two other potters left their mark on sided ware besides Washington Smith and Edwin Merrill. Smithâ€™s earliest dated, sided bottle, is marked â€œD.L. Ormsby / 1847.â€ Dorman Leonard Ormsby was a brewer from Manhattan who operated from 1847 to 1873. A later marked example carries the date â€œ1849â€ with a â€œStarâ€ and at the base the â€œPatent / Pressed / W. Smithâ€ within a shield. 
 http://www.glswrk-auction.com/contest-6.htm

 If it was I apologize to whoever it was. I got lost in some other stuff.
 It looked like caro needs more bran so I thinned things out a little.
 Nice job everyone else for not getting completely out of hand. Thank you.


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