# Question concerning an early machine BALLL hg.



## dygger60 (Aug 14, 2014)

I have had this jar for a few months and need some input on it.  It is the HG in the middle of the picture.  I put it  in between two clear jars to show it better.      Would this jar be considered a light amber?  Or maybe some kind of contamination in the batch? It is an early  machine made jar, probably pretty late 1890's.      I have been collecting jars for going on 20 years now and have not come across or heard of one with  this hue. It is definitely not listed in the Red book.      Comments?       David


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## coreya (Aug 14, 2014)

That's a strange one for sure! straw color? great find!!!!


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## MNJars (Aug 14, 2014)

I have a jar in my collection that is not Ball, but has a similar color.  I've always thought that it was a sun colored yellow color.  Sort of like when some jars are nuked they get super gasoline colored, but much lighter.  Is that it?  I can't remember what compound in the glass causes it to turn that color.


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## botlguy (Aug 14, 2014)

Selenium will turn colorless glass that straw color. Selenium was used as a Manganese substitute during WWI. That's what it looks like to me.    Jim


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## jarsnstuff (Aug 14, 2014)

David, here's my first thought - and I sincerely hope I'm wrong. When clear jars are irradiated, they turn either deep purple, or a weird shade of brown.  If they are left out in the sun for a long period, or if they are placed in a 200 degree oven, they tend to lose much of that color but not all.  I don't know for sure if that's what happened to your jar, but the doubt that it's a genuine color lingers.  My guess is that you're pretty familiar with the irradiated jars, what can you tell me that will make me change my mind?  -Tammy


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## MNJars (Aug 14, 2014)

I wonder if that jar was made during the same timeframe as selenium was prevalent in glass.  It seems older than the jars that I've seen irradiated to colors beyond that.


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## dygger60 (Aug 14, 2014)

Because of the time period this jar was made I, without reservation, will say it is not nuked.  The introduction of Selenium as an additive in place of Manganese because of WW1 restrictions did not occur for at least another 10 or so years _after_ this jar was more than likely made.  We are talking late 1897 or early 1898 time period.     LOL...there is one thing I did not consider when posting this morning. Now please be patient, it takes a bitto explain this. And it, I am pretty sure answered the question.  (Hitting myself in the head right now).     Ball Brothers suffered a massive warehouse fire during this time period. There were 10's of thousands ofjars, ready to be shipped...in _wooden boxes_, that were destroyed. And knowing Ball Brother' philosophy on "waste not, want not", they remelted the mounds and mounds of destroyed glass that remained.      Now,  the wooden boxes when burned, would produce...CARBON..(this is when I got my book to reference). It is noted in the book that  "because of the high amount of carbon in the remelted glass from the wooden boxes, there were jars produced during this period that had a brown tint to them".        I don't know why over the past couple months I did not think about this while looking at this jar.  But it is, I think the most plausible explanation.     I do remember coming across a 3L SURE SEAL quart about 20 years back that had the top half of anail embedded in the glass.     And there it is, now that I remember about the fire, it ties in with the time period this jar was made.     David


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## LisaTammy (Aug 14, 2014)

Oh that is such a cool story. I really want on of these now simply for the history behind it. I have been looking at the green Mason jars (after I dug a broken one), but they are expensive and it's hard for me to tell what is genuine over the internet. I found one I really liked but there was absolutely no bottom mwear which seems weird because they were utilitarian jars.    Anyway, GREAT FIND!Lisa


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## coreya (Aug 14, 2014)

David, The fire theory would certainly explain it but my question would be why aren't they more common as the amount of cullet from that fire would have made millions. I haven't seen that color in the last 20 years or so.


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## dygger60 (Aug 15, 2014)

Good question....along with a lot of the glass came junk....stones, nails stuff like that.  Most of the re-melted glass could not be used because of contamination.  The fires although hot enough to melt the glass, were not hot enough to melt metal, stones stuff like that...lots of junk.     I also have never came across one of these, except for the nail in the glass.  I have in the past came across jars with lots of stuff in the glass...black specks and what looked like sand. This is the first I have come across of the tinting that was mentioned.    And as before, it is only a theory. But the times jive.       David


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## cowseatmaize (Aug 15, 2014)

> There were 10's of thousands of
> jars, ready to be shipped...in wooden boxes, that were destroyed. And knowing Ball Brother' philosophy on "waste not, want not", they remelted the mounds and mounds of destroyed glass that remained.





			
				coreya said:
			
		

> David, The fire theory would certainly explain it but my question would be why aren't they more common as the amount of cullet from that fire would have made millions. I haven't seen that color in the last 20 years or so.


I don't see how it would make more than were burnt, less I would think.[8|]


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## MNJars (Aug 15, 2014)

I think you're on to something with the fire theory.  Great research and a great story.  That jar's a keeper!


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## dygger60 (Aug 15, 2014)

Correct, seeing how the glass turned brown like that, maybe the batches were remixed with other glass making      agents to the point thebatch was aqua again and concealed the brown pigment.  And at the same time saved      them from having to toss the re-melt.       The glass they re-melted already was paid for with the insurance claim. So anything they could save and use      was pure profit.       It would not show in jars with color.  At the time Ball was not producing clear jars on a regular basis.       But I do believe they are limited.  The information I have does not cover the "after", well not too far after.      That may be why I found that Sure Seal quart with the nail embedded in the glass. It was a 3L and from that period.      Lots of questions about this.       David


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## dygger60 (Aug 15, 2014)

Here is a bit more on the warehouse fire....from the Fruit Jar Newsletter from the mid-90's.  I was wrong on the number of jars though, way wrong.  But as to my guess on the tinting and coloring prettymuch on the money.  However, one thing that was pointed out is that some of the amber swirled jars from this period that we seesuch as BALLL MASON and so forth, most of the amber swirling in the glass was a result of the carbon from theburned boxes in concentration.   Cowseatmaize, that was a good call.  Below is a post I found from several years back.  And explains and expands on   what I was thinking and also what maize asked about.  This post is from a gentleman that worked at Ball for almost   40 years.     David      Here is the post: On May 26, 1898, a fire at Muncie, Indiana destroyed the warehouse at Ball Brothers fruit jar glass factory. Losses of 15 million fruit jars were valued at $275 - 300,000. [Crockery & Glass Journal] In 1912, Edmund B. Ball testified that 150,000 gross of fruit jars nailed up in wooden boxes were completely destroyed by the 1898 warehouse fire. This glass was gathered up with the nails and charcoal as it was found at the ruins, and was melted over in a cullet melting furnace. [1909 Brooke vs. Ball suit]"     This is the source of amber tinted and the amber swirled jars from this period.


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## cowseatmaize (Aug 15, 2014)

Holy cow!!! I can see 10's of thousands (say 30-50 thousand) but 15 million in a warehouse? That's a BIIIGGGG warehouse with very little shipping output. What's a 1 quart jar measure? say 4" by 7" in a square for container multiplied by 12 so 12 jars packed about 13"x17"x7.5" is about 1.4 cubic ' x 15,000,000 is say 2.1 million cubic feet? If my math is even close than that makes it at #8 FROM HERE. No, I must have done something wrong.[8|] Ah yes, cubic feet, not meters. divide by about 3? or is it 9? Dang it, I got to start over.Ah, 150,000 gross so that's only... oops, 21,600,000 jars. Hmm that doesn't work either. 30,240,000 cf goes about #8......... screw it, it was big and a lot of jars.[][][]


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## cowseatmaize (Aug 15, 2014)

Lets try acres. 1 Acre = 43,560 Square Feet and a 10 foot ceiling so,... on second thought.... that's about 100 x 430 x 10 building and doesn't come close at about 430,000 cf..Insurance fraud or am I screwed up?Only answer the first part, I know the answer to the second part.[]


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## MNJars (Aug 15, 2014)

Math is our friend!  I know it's LOTS of jars!


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## cowseatmaize (Aug 15, 2014)

I use to think so but I've lost it. I once got a decent estimate on how long a groove of an album (remember those?) would be if it were rolled out. I'll be danged if I want to try that again. I still like pi but go more for key-lime or lemon meringue now.


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## dygger60 (Aug 16, 2014)

I do remember reading that one of the Ball Brothers were pretty badly burned in the trying to put out the fire.     Below is a  picture of the inside of one of the warehouses, I do not know if it was the one the burned, butyou can see the MASSIVE amount of  wooden boxes and picture why the fire was so big.     David


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## jargeezr (Aug 16, 2014)

I believe that picture is of early cardboard boxes for pints and quarts of Ball Masons. They could date from as early as 1910 when the third L was dropped and Ball began experimenting with the cardboard boxes. But it is probably 1912 or later.


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## coreya (Aug 16, 2014)

I remember reading someplace that the slag pile after the fire was 10 feet tall by 80 or so feet wide by football fields long so yea it was a bunch of jars! Wish I had 1 box of them!!!


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## dygger60 (Aug 16, 2014)

Imagine some of the jars destroyed.   There was a comment made at the time about how many of the PAT APL'D FOR boxes were in there.....I myself have never seen one of these boxes.     But they have to had existed at some point.  One of the boxes complete or just a side panel would be worth its weight in gold.      David


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