# Henry William Stiegel Amethyst Flask



## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

While on my daily hunt for snuff bottles, came across this bottle.. At the time, was pretty sure it was not a snuff bottle. Thought it could be a scent bottle. 

 What was confusing, was the ground beveling to the neck/throat. The rest of the bottle seemed so nicely done, that this rather crude beveling did not make any sense. Thought that perhaps it originally had a flared type that perhaps got damaged some how and someone ground it down in an effort to make it look better. 

 Any way.. Learned last night just exactly what this is !  Then to top it off, starting to see the potential value based on others I found online !

 It is quite a bit smaller than the average flask.. At about 2 3/4" tall.  The smallest I have found was 4". 

 It also took me a while to explain why some have a concave base, and others like mine are flat. 

 Quote from Wikipedia.

 A Pontil mark or punt mark is the scar where the pontil, punty or punt was broken from a work of blown glass. The presence of such a scar indicates that a glass bottle or bowl was blown freehand, while the absence of a punt mark suggests either that the mark has been obliterated or that the work was mold-blown.[1]

 Some glassblowers grind a hollow into the base of their work, obliterating the natural punt scar. Where the base of the work is sufficiently heavy, the entire natural base can be sawed or ground flat. Where the base of the work is concave, after the punt has been broken from the work, the punt may be used to attach a small gather of hot glass over the punt scar, into which a maker's mark is impressed.

 I am sure excited to say the least.. 

 Now that I know it is not a Chinese type snuff bottle, am going to try and figure out the best way to sell it.. Any portion of what I think the value is will sure let me add several new Chinese snuff bottles to my collection !

 I especially wanted to share it with you guys on this forum, because this is the type of bottle many of you have a great deal of expertise with. 

 So comments, and yes.., validation would be greatly appreciated !


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## kungfufighter (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi George!  Beautiful piece but absolutely not 18th century Stiegel.  Wish I had better news!


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

Oh gosh Jeff !

 Did not take long for someone to rain on my happy day Stiegel parade ! [] 

 So what is it then Jeff ? 

 It seems to have so many charactoristics of a Stiegel flask..


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

Just for fun.. Here is a pic showing the neck ..


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

I don't think it is a Clevenger Brothers Chicken wire bottle mold.It looks like someones eles own modern interpretation of a Stiegel bottle. George it should look like this if it was an authentic Stiegel flask.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

George here are some shards from Stiegels glass works.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

2. Stiegels main output was green bottle glass.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is authentic Stiegel pocket flask.It is plain but the glass is very thin. This was obtained in Manheim.It was part of a collection that descended down from one of Stiegels enamelers.To date I have purchased about 25 pieces from the collection.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Stiegel glass is very collectable and is under collected in our hobby. You can still find glass shards from the Manheim glass works right under and around the Subway store Located on West Stiegel street in present day Manheim.


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

I have searched high and low for any kind of modern bottle that even slightly resmebles the one I have.. I can not find anything.. 

 I think we can assume that it is a mold blown glass ?  

 Would a fair description be a "William Steigel style" ?

 Steve... 

 Although green was the main color of glass put out by Stiegel, I am *finding a whole lot of these in Amethyst color*..

 What one or two things eliminate this one from potentially being an early mold blown glass ? 

 You guys are the experts with these kind of bottles, and I truly do not mean to be stuck on thinking this to at least be an early mold blown glass.. , I am just seeing so many like this with the same color, diamond mold, neck shape, and beveled throat opening, that can't help but keep taking a double take when comparing them to mine..


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

You could call it Stiegel style.Your bottles mold is one that has not been seen before George. What the hobby is beginning to see is the influx of crudely made replicas of high end bottle to fool people.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  George Ingraham
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## kungfufighter (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> I don't think it is a Clevenger Brothers Chicken wire bottle mold.It looks like someones eles own modern interpretation of a Stiegel bottle. George it should look like this if it was an authentic Stiegel flask.


 Hey, I bought that bottle!


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Jeff check your PM box. Which bottle Georges or the one pictured.[8D]


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## kungfufighter (Mar 12, 2012)

George, your bottle was blown in a full-sized pieced mold - Stiegel type bottles were blown with the aid of pattern molds and expanded into their final forms. I have seen numerous bottles of this type over the years and I feel strongly that they are of (relatively) recent manufacture.  Please don't kill the messenger


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## baltbottles (Mar 12, 2012)

George also your bottle appears to have been blown in a two piece mold where as the originals were blown in a patterned dip mold. That is why the impression on your bottle is so bold compared to the originals.

 Chris


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## kungfufighter (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Jeff check your PM box. Which bottle Georges or the one pictured.[8D]


 The flask from Hecklers Steve.  It has already been sold.


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## kungfufighter (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
> 
> George also your bottle appears to have been blown in a two piece mold where as the originals were blown in a patterned dip mold. That is why the impression on your bottle is so bold compared to the originals.
> 
> Chris


 Jinx, buy me a Coke!

 Amazing how two great minds can think alike[]


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
> 
> Please don't kill the messenger


 
 Of course not.. I truly do appreciate the honest help... 

 Auf, 

 The only one I can answer is in regards to the base.. 

 Per Wikipedia. 

 A Pontil mark or punt mark is the scar where the pontil, punty or punt was broken from a work of blown glass. The presence of such a scar indicates that a glass bottle or bowl was blown freehand, while the absence of a punt mark suggests either that the mark has been obliterated or that the work was mold-blown.[1] 

 Some glassblowers grind a hollow into the base of their work, obliterating the natural punt scar. Where the base of the work is sufficiently heavy, the entire natural base can be sawed or ground flat. Where the base of the work is concave, after the punt has been broken from the work, the punt may be used to attach a small gather of hot glass over the punt scar, into which a maker's mark is impressed.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 12, 2012)

@ Jeff and Chris:  that was eerie !! []


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Refresh this page Jeff,to import my PM message, Charlie is there any way to send messages live almost like AOL messenger ? I know the system software probably cant perform the task just thought I would ask.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 12, 2012)

Yeah some of us are allowed to use ABNIM but one has to be invited.. kinda like the masons... []


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Jeff check your PM box. Which bottle Georges or the one pictured.[8D]


 
 Ok, I got lost... Am I missing out on something ? [8|]


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

I am sorry George another matter Jeff and I had been discussing.Where are you from George ?


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

Ah, ok.. Thought so.. 

 I live outside of Newport Wash

 Diamond Lake area.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

George I am somewhat of a Stiegel fanatic.Here is a customer who purchased from William Henry Stiegel Stove parts. Stiegel was as famous for his stove parts as he was for his glass.This same person was one of Stiegels merchants for his glass in Philadelphia. this invoice is from 1773 just before Stiegels financial ruin.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

A little closer....... I guess you wont be coming to the East coast anytime soon[]


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

All the names you see on this invoice are men that fought in the Revolutionary war of Independence. Reese Meridith,Issac Daschall,John Kaighn founded Kaighns point in Camden New Jersey across from Center City Philadelphia,John Litle famous Philadelphia Merchant supplied George Washington with tons of pig iron for the revolutionary war ammo.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

My bad 1772 November and December not 1773


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

This is one of my favorites George,
  Here is a footed Jelly or preserves dish or bowl. Cornelius Weygandt once owned this piece. It was part of an extensive collection from East Petersburg PA. Weygandt had at the time Hunter was gathering information for his book the largest Stiegel collection known. A litlle History............Cornelius Weygandt was born on December 13, 1871, in Germantown, PA. He was the son of Cornelius Nolan Weygandt and Lucy Elmaker Thomas. His ancestry consisted of a long lineage of German immigrants. His great-great-grandfather, also named Cornelius Weygandt, immigrated from Osthofen, Germany, to Germantown, Pennsylvania, in 1736. Moving into a German community had made the transition easier and helped keep his familyâ€™s German culture alive. Four generations later, Cornelius Weygandt led a life which was still strongly influenced by his ancestry, an influence evident by his writing.  

 Weygandt authored over eighteen books in his life. With his father a prominent banker and his mother a school teacher, it seemed fated that Weygandt would become a successful man. Weygandt proved to be enthusiastic and was motivated to become a scholar. He enrolled at the University of Pennsylvania at the age of fifteen. However, by his own admission, he didnâ€™t catch on to the entire meaning of higher education until his third year there. Weygandt seemed to possess a thirst for knowledge uncommon for a boy of his age; he quenched his thirst with a great number of books and volumes of history, as it pertained to his heritage. Throughout his childhood, Weygandt busied himself studying all manner of things about the world around him. He showed interest in many topics ranging from the local woodland creatures to the nursery rhymes of the local Pennsylvania Dutch.  

  His most notable work was in describing the culture of the Pennsylvania Germans which appeared in many of his books, the first being The Red Hills published in 1929.  Weygandt wrote about the influences and remnants of colonial culture that still existed in southeastern Pennsylvania, southern New Jersey, and New Hampshire (where he had a summer home). Weygandt wrote with pride of the Pennsylvania Dutch. He even opposed the movement to correct the phrase to Pennsylvania German, on the basis that, to the world, they were Pennsylvania Dutch. He felt that most of the greatest things about their heritage would be forever tagged as Dutch. Dutch cookbooks, Dutch furniture, Dutch pretzels, and more would all be lost to their rightful owners if they insisted on being called Pennsylvania German.  

  Between 1929 and 1946 he published fifteen books based on his higher provincialism model.In addition to his literary interests, Weygandt was also interested in the material world of the past.  He collected a great number of Colonial Pennsylvania German related artifacts.  He was also an avid bird watcher.His Stiegel glass collection numbered over 100 pieces at one time.These Stiegel glass items were once part of his personal collection.I have added a fourth which will arrive at my house between the 6th and 10th of June.Each item was tagged,and studied by him.Pieces from his collection appear from time to time and I have been fortunate to acquire all of these.Most of his collection of glass was gathered between 1890 and 1925.Mr. Hunter used a lot of the notes from Weygandt when he wrote Stiegel glass  between 1905 and the publication date of 1914 as Mr Weygandt interviewed a lot of the older German families throught the same period also for his own research.The two men shared a common interest in the Stiegel glass and remained friends and shared quite a bit of information.


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> All the names you see on this invoice are men that fought in the Revolutionary war of Independence. Reese Meridith,Issac Daschall,John Kaighn founded Kaighns point in Camden New Jersey across from Center City Philadelphia,John Litle famous Philadelphia Merchant supplied George Washington with tons of pig iron for the revolutionary war ammo.


  How cool is that !!


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

2.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

3. The tapered footed base seen here is a very American?German feature.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

4


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

5


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

6.Imperfect is referring to a small 1/4 inch crack where the handle is attached to the top of the pitcher.


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## bobble (Mar 12, 2012)

Hi guys.I don't mean to but in,I would like to know what distinguishes a snuff vice perfume container?This one looks like it's missing a pretty glass stopper.Don't mean anything by that,I just need schooling some.[8|]


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Which one bobble the initial post?


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is a pretty one George.  A 16 ribbed Stiegel  Jelly dish. It has one of the largest Pot stones I have ever seen .This bowl was found in East Petersburg Pennsylvania 7 miles south of Manheim Pennsylvania.It was in the same family for the last 130 years.I have never seen a piece of fine dinner ware glass with the amount of  pot stones this bowl has.The color is a pretty dark cobalt blue.This color blue was one of the Stiegel manufactories favorite colors to use in the making of fine dinner ware as many pieces turn up in Lancaster county with this type of ribbing and in this color blue.The bowl is 2  and 1/8 inches tall,4 inches wide at the top of the rim and the footed base is 2 and 1/4 inches round.There is a swirled type pontil mark and the base is much heavier then the rest of the piece.Salts and jelly bowls were listed by Stiegel in numerous newspaper ads and in his own personal inventory lists in possession of the Manheim and Pennsylvania historical societies. 

 Stiegel made these to fill the void when the colonies revolted against the British Parliament because of the excessively high duties placed on English imported glass in the 1767 Townshend acts.This over taxing and the forbidding of the Colonies to manufacture there own wares fueled Stiegels manufacturing fires.Between the years 1768 and 1773 Stiegel produced a large amount of fine tableware that was eagerly purchased by the common citezenry.The English Counter parts to these are a smoother lighter in color blue glass with very little debris and potstones in the glass in comparison.The piece is 1765 to 1770  in manufacture and matches nicely to other Stiegel attributed pieces in collections all over the U.S.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

2


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

3


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

4


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Look at the size of the largest potstone it looks like a kidney stone collection in a bladder.


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## bobble (Mar 12, 2012)

Sorry Steve,I drifted.Yes,the initial post.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bobble
> 
> Sorry Steve,I drifted.Yes,the initial post.


  We all drift bobble,George this posts author has an extensive website dedicated to your question  http://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/   George real nice collection you have!!!


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## bobble (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks.Those are all gorgeous pieces you guys own.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is a neat piece A very tall 8 inches cobalt blue Stiegel wine glass again once owned by Cornelius Weygandt. There were 4 of these I could only afford this one at the time of the availability. I was fortunate the owner agreed to break up the set. I would have loved the set but it would have broke my bank.


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Actually, that link is just my little internet hole in the wall where I post and record some of my bottles. My collection has grown even more recently.. 

 Hope it is ok to post this, but the site to learn and talk about snuff bottles is at http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

2


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  George Ingraham
> 
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> 
> ...


 Thanks George, another underrated type of bottle in this hobby the snuff bottle. Very personal very pretty.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

3 My wife drinks wine out of this one from time to time. It is her favorite glass in my collection. Its also huge as the bowl probably holds 10 ounces.


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## baltbottles (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 It is indeed.....[]


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## baltbottles (Mar 12, 2012)

Steve I thought the checkered diamond pattern molded flasks were generally considered to be Amelung not Stiegel....

 Chris


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## George Ingraham (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
> 
> 
> 
> George also your bottle appears to have been blown in a two piece mold where as the originals were blown in a patterned dip mold. That is why the impression on your bottle is so bold compared to the originals.


 
 Ah.. Yes.. Now that is certainly noteworthy for sure..


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
> 
> Steve I thought the checkered diamond pattern molded flasks were generally considered to be Amelung not Stiegel....
> 
> Chris


  They are Chris, the flask I showed which Jeff owned has a staggered patern and there are quite a few known stiegel flasks with this type of Diamond design. The design you speak of is this one.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

Chris here are two pieces with very good Provenance from the Philadelphia Glass works owned by John and Samuel Elliot and Issac Gray which were located in Kensington 1774 to 1780 and recently relocated right next to Dyotts glass factory ,more to come in a few days... Note the similarities to Stiegels and Amelungs glass.These were an exciting pick up for me. Some of the work men from this glass works fled Stiegel when his eminent failure was at hand. One of them Issac's Lazarus a German/Jewish Glass cutter,and  flowerer ran away from Stiegel as an indentured worker.John Elliot was a master Cabinet Maker and looking glass merchant in Philadelphia.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

2.


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

3


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

4


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## Steve/sewell (Mar 12, 2012)

5


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## botlguy (Mar 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  George Ingraham
> Quote from Wikipedia.
> The presence of such a scar indicates that a glass bottle or bowl was blown freehand, while the absence of a punt mark suggests either that the mark has been obliterated or that the work was mold-blown.[1]


 I think this Quote from wikipedia is in error.  Am I mis-reading this or am I correct or just plain wrong? I belive / am sure that both freeblown and mold blown bottles can and do have pontil scars.


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## George Ingraham (Mar 13, 2012)

Botlguy, 

 Coincidence that we both plucked that username out of thin air.. I use the username Bottleguy on another forum..

 Again, I am not an expert, but believe your right about both freehand and mold blown bottles end up with the pontil scars. 

 I think the answer why some don't is in the second part of that Wikipedia quote.. 

 "Some glassblowers grind a hollow into the base of their work, obliterating the natural punt scar. Where the base of the work is sufficiently heavy, the entire natural base can be sawed or ground flat. Where the base of the work is concave, after the punt has been broken from the work, the punt may be used to attach a small gather of hot glass over the punt scar, into which a maker's mark is impressed. "

 As with my bottle, it undoubtably had a pontil scar, but was ground flat. 

 Glad your asking the question, and looking forward to hearing what others think.. 

 I also have another question to ask.. 

 If it is fair to list this as a Stiegel style, would anyone care to share what the value of this bottle might be.. If any


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## kungfufighter (Mar 13, 2012)

Trying to reply to you Doug but your PM is full.


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## Clam (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think it was mentioned yet but in the current Heckler #98 auction item # 111 is the exact flask that started this thread (sorry for your misfortune George) but this one is real and will give you a good look at a Stiegel toilet flask (a least thats what it is called in my Stiegel book)


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## George Ingraham (Mar 14, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Clam
> 
> (sorry for your misfortune George)


 
 Hey.. Not even a problem.. 

 I was on a hunt for snuff bottles, and this one just sort of caught my eye..   

 Another of my first impression impulse purchases.  Was sure it was not a snuff bottle.. Thought maybe a scent bottle, but really had absolutely no idea.  Took a shot with a buy it now for 30 bucks. 

 Hey, I sure learned a few things in this thread though !

 Greatly appreciate all the replies.. 

 So, until the next wanna be bottle treasure comes along, will catch you all later !  

 I'm off to my early morning, online snuff bottle hunting ritual []


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