# old black bottle found in melbourne



## kendolbottles1black (Jan 17, 2004)

here is some pics of a black bottle found in melbourne would it be early english 1800s or late 1800s it is three piece mould with a sharp pontil thanks ken[]


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## kendolbottles1black (Jan 17, 2004)

here is the base shot


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 17, 2004)

This is a really interesting bottle.  The lip appears to be earlier than the 1820s Ricketts patent 3PM bottles.  

 Roger Dumbrell in his book, UNDERSTANDING ANTIQUE WINE BOTTLES, mentions that  _A few three-piece mould bottles exist c. 1810-11 but have no base markings to indicate their place of manufacture.  It is thought, however, that they were early Ricketts bottles made before the advent of the company's policy of mould-marking the base._

 This 1810-11 date is consistent with the lip of your bottle.

 You can see an 1820s Ricketts patent bottle here: RICKETTS PATENT BOTTLE

 Good hunting!

 ------------Harry Pristis


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## kendolbottles1black (Jan 17, 2004)

thanks harry this one had me confused we get plenty of goldfields blacks c,1860s -70s  but this is the first i have seen of these thanks ken[]


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## IRISH (Jan 19, 2004)

The lip on that black look's pre 1820s but the base does not,   much as I would like to see a bottle that early found here I would say it's more like 1830s after the start of the town of Melbourne.   There has been older bottles found but they where probably from the crew's from sealers or whale ships that set up camp in the bay.

 Even if it is 1830s it's still 20 years older than most of the bottles found here and still a very nice black [] .


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 19, 2004)

That is an interesting diagnosis, Irish.

 Can you show us your Rickett's squat cylinders from the 1830s that resemble this one?  

 I have only a few of these Rickett's bottles myself; most of my squat cylinders are earlier.  The only match I have for this base-rim is the bottle on the web-page in my earlier post.  Here is the link again: http://members.aol.com/pristis/whatisit.html

 My other Rickett's bottles have ribs on the margins of the bevelled base-rim.  
 These bottles were pontil-scarred to about 1840, so that is not very useful in fine-dating the bottle.  

 The lip of Ken's bottle, OTOH, is a very nice fit in the 1810s style that Roger Dumbrell illustrates.  

 Of the evolution of the lip on these squat cylinders, Dumbrell says:
_The string-rim [of the 1820-50 period] had altered drastically and was now a neat, cone-shaped two-tiered affair which altered just a little over the next three decades or so.... _ 

 The lips on my Rickett's squat cylinder bottles fit that description, more or less.

 Perhaps I am relying too much on Dumbrell's analysis.  I am always eager to learn more about this early glass.  Thanks!

 ------------Harry Pristis


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## oz-riley (Jan 20, 2004)

Harry,
 I really donâ€™t know who made this bottle or an Age however, here is a page from one of Ken Arnolds books which has a short history of Rickett's patent.
 If the bottle is pre 1821 it could have been made by Chubsee of Bradley, Ensall & Holt Glassworks, Stourbridge? The bottle could also be a Rickett's knockoff made by another glassworks of the same period. 
 If it is one of the early Rickett's Patents, before they embossed the bases, it could date around 1822 to say 1827 (just a guess), this would give the bottle time to be filled by the producer, shipping to Melbourne took around 12 months in the 1830's.
 This would allow the bottle to arrive around the late 1820's or 1830.
 What I am getting at is we just don't see bottles found in Melbourne pre 1830, The first Settlement was established around 1835. There were Sealers and Whale Hunters also Pastoral Leases for a short period before the major settlement was established.
 So this bottle being from the 1810 period it is not out of the question just very unusual for Melbourne.


 Ken,
 Do you know which area in Melbourne this bottle was found? 
 My guess would be either right in the CBD around Flinders Street or in Port Melbourne or Dived in Port Phillip Bay. 
 The earliest bottle I have ever found in Melbourne was in Port Melbourne and that was a Salad Oil that had a registration diamond which dated it to 1838.


 Thanks

 Chris


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## IRISH (Jan 20, 2004)

Harry I don't have Rickett's bottles of that type but I have seen a few 1850's blacks with a base the same as that,  different tops but the same base.
 Chris's post say's pretty much everything else I was going to post [] (before my computer spat the dummy and killed my post [] ).


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## kendolbottles1black (Jan 20, 2004)

oz ;the fellow i got it off told me it came from an early part of melbourne he also had a few ricketts bottles would you class it as rare in australia what would it be worth thanks guys ken[]  ps has anyone seen black penfolds bottles []


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 20, 2004)

This is interesting!

 I don't know much about the history of Melbourne.  I accept the evidence of the bottle (and its sketchy provenience).  I don't put much reliance on probabilities based on history when the bottle is in hand.

 It is fruitless to speculate on how long this bottle was in transit or anything else about it except for its date and style of manufacture -- there is no archeological context to support such speculation.  The bottle could have been refilled many times over a long period of time before it came to its resting place in Melbourne.

 The only things we know are that it was made in England (almost certainly) using a revolutionary bottle-making technique (3PM) that helps us date it.  We can refine the date of its manufacture by comparing subtle lip and base details to dated seal bottles. The rest is romance.

 Not that there is anything wrong with romance!  That is a great attraction to collecting these old bottles.  For example, I have posted below the pic of a bottle I found years ago on the bank (private property) of the Suwannee River on the Gulf Coast of Florida.  The bottle is an English onion from about 1700 (+/- 10 years).  

 At that time, the only European settlement in peninsular Florida was Spanish St. Augustine on the Atlantic Coast.  At the same time, English soldiers and slavers from the Carolina colonies were wiping out the Spanish missions to the Indians in the interior of the state.  By 1710, the aboriginal Indians in North Florida had either moved westward out of Florida or were living in the immediate area of St. Augustine.

 So, was my onion bottle brought to this remote area on the Gulf Coast of Florida by English soldiers and slavers?  Maybe.  This river does reach the area of the Spanish missions, and rivers were the routes of access to the interior. 

 But wait.  At this same time, William Teach, the famous English pirate known as "Blackbeard" is reputed to have sheltered in the river.  My onion bottle was found not far from the place where local lore holds that Blackbeard buried some treasure!  

 Wooden vessels were sailed up freshwater rivers in order to careen them.  The sailors would tie ropes to trees on the bank and use winches to tip the ship.  Once the hull was exposed, the sailors would scrape away the marine growth.  Then they reversed the ship to clean the other side of the hull.  

 A clean hull meant less drag in the water.  Less drag meant greater speed.  Speed could be crucial if you were a pirate.  Blackbeard was slain in 1718 in a fight with a British warship off the coast of Virginia. 

 So, was Blackbeard the last person to drink from this onion bottle?  Maybe.  It's fun to think about it.

 ---------------Harry Pristis


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## kendolbottles1black (Jan 21, 2004)

great bit of history harry who would of thought a black bottle could cause so much conversation thanks again ken[]


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## David E Dearden (Feb 1, 2004)

I have a H RICKETT & Co Glass Works, seems to be around a push up on the bottom.
 1821 England.


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## kendolbottles1black (Feb 1, 2004)

hi david could you post a pic of the lip and base []thanks ken


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 1, 2004)

Ken . . .

 Here is a pic of one of my Ricketts bottles.  This one has a pontil scar and "PATENT" embossed on the shoulder.  Notice the crude double-collar lip -- that notch was left by the lipping tool.  I believe that this is an early example from the 1820s.

 -------------Harry Pristis


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 2, 2004)

Hi Harry , 
  Maybe you can provide some info on a Ricketts bottle I have ?
  It has I presume the word PATENT plated out or peened out on the shoulder. The first one I have ever seen like this. I have included some pics of the lip , base , and shoulder.


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 2, 2004)

The base


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 2, 2004)

The shoulder !   Anybody have any ideas on age and why the word PATENT was removed from the mold ????  Thanks , Brian


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## kendolbottles1black (Feb 2, 2004)

thanks harry and brian both very nice bottles .hey brian may be they made to many bottles and wore out the slug mould [] any way thanks again ken[]


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 2, 2004)

Brian . . .

 Nice bottle!  What does the base-rim embossment on your bottle read?  Use of such a light color glass became more common starting in the mid-1800s.  

 Dumbrell says that some of these Ricketts patent bottles were base-rim embossed, some weren't.  Some had PATENT embossed on the shoulder, others had IMPERIAL PATENT on the shoulder.  Some had no shoulder embossment.  He does not suggest the reasons.  It may have been as simple as customer preference.

 I don't know why the mold for your bottle had the PATENT peened out.    Perhaps, as Ken suggests, the embossing just wore out and didn't produce an adequate strike on the bottles anymore.  Or, perhaps the machinist made a mistake in cutting the letters into the mold, and a decision was made to salvage the mold.  

 Here is a Ricketts patent bottle with the shoulder-embossed PATENT and no base-rim embossing.  I think this one probably dates to the 1840s.

 --------------Harry Pristis


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 6, 2004)

Hi again Harry , 
  I see you asked what was on the base embossing on my Ricketts bottle . 
 It is embossed with H. RICKETTS & CO GLASSWORKS BRISTOL ( It's hard to make out , you have to hold it just right to make out what it says  ).
 It is a 3 piece mold and has an iron pontil( No iron left ) or I guess it could be a sandchip pontil. This bottle has been dug or spent sometime in the water and the pontil is hard to see unless examined closley. 
   It looks like the PATENT was removed and not wore out. A slug plate inserted in the mold perhaps ????????       Thanks for the info , Brian


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## kendolbottles1black (Feb 6, 2004)

hi brian i have a small black glass ricketts squat 3 piece mold it is embossed on the base but does not have patent on the shoulder .maybe some companys ordered them that way so as not to interfere with labels ect.[]anyway its just a guess by for now ken


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 7, 2004)

Hello, Brian . . .

 My point was that we cannot know why the "PATENT" was obliterated from the mold.  The lettering could have been worn out and removed because the bottles didn't look good any longer.  The lettering could have been removed due to machinist error, such as cutting a backwards "E", for example.  Or, it is possible that the buyer of these bottles just didn't want any embossment on the shoulder.

 A plate mold which would use "slug plates" is a development of the later half of the 1800s, according to Munsey.  This is a bit later than your bottle, I think.

 Perhaps there is someone here who is familiar with the repair of metal molds.  I am guessing that the grooves cut to make the letters were filled in with rod stock -- peened, welded, and ground smooth.   I think such a repair could never be perfect, especially at high temperatures, because of the differences between the welding stock and the mold, and because of unavoidable flaws in the patch.

 So that everyone here knows what we are talking about, here is a bottle from a patched mold.  I don't know the history of this patent medicine, but it seems clear that DR. W. H. BULL stopped advertizing himself as a "DR." as this was obscured by a patch in the mold for this bottle.  I guess this falls into the category of "error."  Can you see the trace?

 -----------Harry Pristis


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 7, 2004)

Hello, Ken . . .

 If you are talking about the bottle that started this thread, it may not have "PATENT" on the shoulder because there *was no patent* when the bottle was produced.  Remember, the Ricketts patent was issued in 1821.

 ---------Harry Pristis


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## kendolbottles1black (Feb 7, 2004)

no harry i have another smaller version embossed on the bottom thanks again ken[]


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 7, 2004)

Harry ,
  I thought it was a little unusual on my bottle.  Thanks for the info on it ! 
               Brian


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## BRIAN S. (Feb 7, 2004)

Harry ,
  Your Bull's looks more like the result of a dirty mold than as the Dr. being peened from the mold .     Brian


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