# EARLIEST "CROWN TOP" SODA BOTTLES 1892 - 1900



## SODAPOPBOB

I call this Part II of my continuing interest in early soda pop bottles. However, this time I would like to focus on the early-early crown tops from around 1892 through about 1900. I am primarily interested in American made bottles, but all are welcome to post any crown soda bottle from any part of the world if they wish to.

 I realize crown "tops" pretty much all look alike, but it's the bottles themselves, and the various brands that I am most interested in seeing. As for myself, I only have a single example of one of these early crown top's, which is the Godfrey Archer bottle from Clevedon, England that I posted a separate thread to earlier today. 

 Although I have done my homework on this topic, I came up short with finding the images of these types of bottles that I was hoping to. Thus, the reason for this new thread and my invitation for all members to share photos and information on those extremely early and most interesting soda bottles.

 I'll start things off with the image and link below regarding William Painter's invention of the first crown top that was applied for in 1890, and received it's patent in 1892. The link itself is for those among us who like details and enjoy reading legal patent jargon. It's about six pages long, and contains everything you ever wanted to know about this particular patent ... and then some.

 I hope this thread generates some interest, as I would love to see photos of those rare and treasured "crown top" soda bottles from before the turn of the century.

 Thank you in advance for your time and interest in this topic. I'm hoping we will all learn a lot before we're done here.

 Patent Link ...             
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/0468258.pdf

 [/align]Sincerely,

 SODAPOPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As a general rule for those not familiar with what might be a pre-1900 crown top, they can more easily be recognized by where the "seam" on the bottle ends. I'm still learning about the specifics on this myself, but have discovered so far that "most" if not all of the early crown seams will stop about an inch or two below the very lip top of the bottle. The photo below is a poor example, but is from my only pre-1900 Godfrey Archer bottle. The seam stops just above the shoulder, and "exactly" two inches below the lip. Another aspect of an early crown is that they are "Embossed" bottles, and not the ACL varieties that came into popularity in the mid 1930s.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

So as not to turn this into a debate as to the proper method of dating early "crown" soda bottles, which can be extremely complicated and confusing for some, I would like to simplify things by suggesting that "any" crown top soda bottle with a disappearing seam will suffice for out interest here. It will be easier and more fun that way. The dating information and photo below are for general interest purposes only, and not to be confused with any form of prerequsite for posting images.

 I guess what I'm really looking for here is, "The earliest crown top soda bottle known to exist." (If such a distinction can even be made). But I hope you will agree that it's worth a try, and I can think of no better place to begin this search that right here on good'old Antique-Bottles.net ... "Where The Experts Live!"  

 Thanks again,

 SPB

*Dating Notes*:  It appears that no crown finish bottles date prior to the 1892 patent date.  In fact, virtually all crown finish (soda and beer) bottles date to after ca. 1894-1895, since in 1893 a national depression (the famous "Panic of 1893") made investment capital very scarce for several years deterring the use of new and expensive equipment like that needed to accommodate this new closure (Lief 1965).  As an example of the progression in acceptance of this finish/closure style, the crown finish first shows up in the 1896 _Illinois Glass Co._ (IGCo) catalog with just one soda bottle offering.  In 1899 the IGCo. offered several different crown soda bottles, by 1903 21 different soda bottle molds were listed with crown finishes (as well as other similar bottles available for beer), and 37 different molds listed by 1911 (IGCo. 1896, 1899, 1903, 1911).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least is this full image of my Godfrey Archer bottle from England. (With cool image of a race horse and the famous jockey, Fred Archer).  I'm still working on trying to more accurately date it, but I'm confident it is circa ... 1900 (or "possibly" a little earlier). I think some collectors call this a "Bowling Pin" bottle.

 SPB


----------



## appliedlips

In these parts, close to Alton,Ill.( home of the Illinios glass co.) alot of our local bottlers were using crowntops by the late 90's opposed to hutches and blobs. I have lived in other parts of the country were hutches were predominate right up to or even a little later than 1910. The early IGCO sodas are more of a squat form than most used in other parts of the country.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

appliedlips ~

 It must be hard to speak with applied lips, but you type really good. Thanks for the insight. Illinois Glass played a huge part in the whole soda making world. You must be surrounded by old soda bottles, (not so here in southern Cal), and I envy you enough to want to move back there and start digg'n around like a gopher. Everytime I hear that familiar "clink" sound at the end of my digging rake, I get the chills from bottle fever. 

 Send us some pics if you hav'em.

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I found the following information to be of interest and thought I would use it to help illustrate some of what was going on during the early soda bottle days of the late 1800s. As you will read, it speaks about one of the "first" Coca Cola bottles ever used ... starting in "1894." If Coca Cola wasn't using crown tops yet, I wonder who was?  I believe the reference to the "Root" bottles is speaking of Coca Cola's first crown tops, with a corresponding date of 1901. I'm not sure, but I don't believe Root ever made Hutch-top bottles ... only Crown's! 

 SPB

*BIEDENHARN CANDY CO. VICKSBURG MISS* 
 The Biedenharn Hutchinson-style bottle is accepted as being the first to ever contain Coke after Joe Biedenharn started filling them with Coca-Cola in 1894. The ROOT bottles (i.e. have "ROOT 471 on the foot) were made after Nov 1901 since that is when ROOT Glass Works was first started. The most valuable hutches are embossed with _Coca-Cola_. 


       This is the 1894 bottle referred to above  ...   (remember, the "Crown" was invented in 1892).  [8|]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

They say there is no search quite like "re-search."  And based on my latest research, if we hope to find bonified examples of the first crown closures, it appears I will have to move the dates forward from 1892-1900 to around 1897-1905. The following article will explain why.

                                                                    ~ * ~

_Substantial use of the new _(crown)_ closure by soda water bottlers did not get started until about 1897._ Mouth-blown, tooled crown finish soda bottles date from possibly as early as 1894, but more likely from about 1897. "Machine-made" crown finish bottles all date after 1905 when the first license for soda and beer bottles was issued for the _Owens Automatic Bottle Machine. M_achine produced bottles would exhibit suction scars. The semi-automatic machine production of narrow necked bottles was not significant until after about 1910 making machine-made, non-suction scarred crown finish bottles likely to date no earlier than the early 1910s.

                                                                                                                 ~ * ~

The next phase of my research will deal with these so called "suction scars." Once we determine exactly what the heck those suction scars look like, it should make it easier to recognize the early crown-tops we are looking for. I know they are out there somewhere. 

I'll be back,

SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For those of you who already know all this stuff, please bare with me, as this is a work in progress. I said earlier I didn't want to get into a "mold seam" debate, and yet here I am right in the middle of one with myself. But it appears there is no other way to narrow down those early crowns without first understanding something about seams and scars. Hopefully this next article will be sufficient enough to get us back on track.

 Note: For me, the point being made here is that if we have bottles with suction scars, then our bottles are machine made ... thus, made during or sometime after "1905." Which would then confirm the "earliest" crown-top soda bottles as being produced between about 1897 and 1905. Which is close enough for me, and now all we have to do is find photos of those early crown bottles that don't have suction scars on them. Easy-smeasy ... right?  Hopefully we'll find out soon. By the way, I just discovered that my Godfrey Archer bottle from England not only doesn't have suction scars, but that it was also made in a 3-piece mold. But I don't know yet when the 3-piece molds were last used. If I can determine that date, (another easy-smeasy) then I should be able to narrow down the date on my bottle even more. 

 Thanks for hanging in there,

 SPB  


*Owens machine suction scars*



A suction scar is the diagnostically distinctive mark most commonly found on the base of earlier bottles produced by the Owens Automatic Bottle Machine.  The mark is a result of a mechanical blade or "knife" which cut off the glass being drawn upwards into the blank or parison mold via a suction process once enough glass was drawn to produce the desired bottle. Click Owens machine cycle to see an illustration of a portion of the Owens machine cycle (Stages 2 and 3) which shows schematically how the knife cuts off the glass. Suction scars are a more or less round, very fine line that is can be either incised into (typical) or raised above the glass surface.  If the mold blade was dull or the base of the blank/parison mold worn or poorly fitting, the scar gets a "feathered" or "splotchy" edge to it, like shown in the picture above.  The feathering is a result of the sliding or "smearing" action of the blade/knife and the rolling of slivers of glass in the narrow clearance between the blade, mold, and the drawn glass. The pictured bottle actually shows some of the smeared glass slivers imbedded into the bottle base adjacent to the suction scar itself.  Suction scars are usually not perfectly centered, particularly on square and oval bottles, and will frequently slop over onto the heel and lower sides of non-round bottles.  This latter features is particularly pronounced on smaller bottles.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was able to determine that 3-piece bottle molds were last used "around" 1908. And even though this does't narrow down the date on my bottle as close as I was hoping it would, at least I know now with a reasonable amount of certainty that it was made sometime between 1897 and 1905. Which, again, is close enough for me.

                                                   So now for the fun part ...

 First ...

 Check out this film clip from the early 1900s" ( pre-1905 ? ), showing how bottles were blown in a mold. I found it totally facinating. (By using the slide bar at the bottom of the film clip, you can start/stop/pause, etc.)  Note:  The video takes a minute to open, but is worth waiting for. Thanks.

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/handblownoperation.mpg 

 Second ...

 Now that we "kind of know" what to look for, let's see those photos of your early crown top soda bottles. And if you are still as confused as I am, please just remember the following ... (general guidelines).

 1.  The mold seam should "disappear" somewhere near the shoulder or neck.
 2.  There should not be a "suction scar" on the bottom of the bottle. 

 Other than that, I would say this thread is wide open for any and all who would like to participate and share images of their early crown top soda bottles with the rest of us. And please be sure to show the embossed side so we will know who made it.

 Thanks again to one and all who have found this topic worthy of exploring, and especially to those who have something to share.

 Sincerely,

 SODAPOPBOB ... (Student - Not Teacher).


----------



## celerycola

Biedenharn was at best the third bottler of Coca-Cola. It was bottled in Atlanta in the 1880's by two separate bottlers according to Samuel Candler Dobbs who at the time he made the statement was President of The Coca-Cola Company. He was also Asa Candler's nephew and involved in the Coca-Cola business from 1888 onward.

 Root did make Hutchinson bottles. As far as the crown Coke bottles they were made by many other glass companies as well as Root. 

 Hutchinson bottles were still being used in 1918 in the US. I've seen several with the contents embossed as required by the Gould Amendment. How quickly bottler's switched to crowns depended on local custom.

 Hutchinson bottles were used only briefly in 1899 for Coca-Cola in Atlanta and Chattanooga because the rubber washer affected the taste of the drink. Most of the Hutchinson bottles embossed Coca-Cola were actually used for fruit-flavored soda water, even those with the script trademark. The Birmingham Coca-Cola plant started as a branch of Atlanta in 1901 and used crown bottles for Coke from the beginning. Crawford Johnson bought the plant in February 1902 and added the script Hutchinson bottles for the soda water flavors because that is what other local bottlers used at the time.


----------



## surfaceone

Hey Bob,

 Thanks for writing up this topic. It's one, in which I've been interested in for some time. I've been calling them transitional bottles in my mind's conversations. The above guy is a quart sized, turn moulded, crown top. I'm guessing a mineral water, rather than a soda, but close enough, I hope.

 It was one of the last pieces to come out of my last lamented dump digging spot. The excavators filled me in the other day. This one was about 2 feet below the dated 1909 layer. Here's a not too good picture of the finish: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I was trying to illustrated the the concentric rings that highlight this guy, but didn't quite capture them.

 Here's Bill Lindsey's synopsis on 'Turn-molds,' "Turn-mold (paste mold) - Refers to a mouth-blown bottle produced in a mold where the bottle is rotated in the mold to erase the mold seams and give the bottle a glossy sheen.  Also called a paste mold since the interior mold surface had to have a lubricant added to facilitate the rotation.  Both the terms "turn-mold" and "paste mold" were used by glassmakers to describe these bottles (Scholes 1952).  Turn-mold bottles date at least as early as the Civil War through the later mouth-blown bottle era as they were still listed as late as 1911 in glass manufacturing catalogs (Putnam 1965).  There are no machine-made turn-mold bottles to our knowledge.  Contrary to the implications of the name, the bottle turned in the mold - the mold did not turn around a stationary bottle.  This process is discussed in more depth on the Glassmaking & Glassmakers page." From. There's more over here.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celerycola ~

 Thanks for helping to connect some more of the missing links. It's starting to look as if I may have bit off more than I can chew here, as there doesn't appear to be a definitive method for recognizing the earlier, and especially pre-1900 crown soda bottles.

 So what in your opinion is the best method for dating pre-machine-made crown bottles prior to around 1905 or so? You said (quote) ... "The Birmingham Coca-Cola plant started as a branch of Atlanta in 1901 and used crown bottles for Coke from the beginning." Are you saying they are only identifiable if they are embossed with a particular city, thus knowing when that specific bottler started would establish a date? Or is there some other method dependent on how the bottle was made etc? And lastly, do you happen to have an example of one of those 1901 Birmingham Coca-Cola bottles that you could share a photo of?

 Thanks a million. I truly appreciate it.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

surfacetwo to surfaceone ... can you read me? Over!  Lol  []

 It looks like you were posting while I was typing. Thanks for the information. I'm beginning to think I need to take a closer look at is the finishes (lips) regarding how and when these early crowns first appeared. That blob-looking stuff under the applied lips may be a clue as well. Hmmm? The words "applied lips" rings a bell! 

 Also, thanks for the photos. I'm definitely a ... "one picture is worth a thousand words" kind of guy.

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

This is an interesting subject.. I have long wondered if the shape of a crown top was around in some other incarnation before the invention of the cap.. probably not, but maybe somewhere out there..
 Here is the lip of an unembossed applied crown I dug up a ways back.. quite crude:


----------



## cyberdigger

Here's 2 of my favorite crowns, these local squats.. they've gotta be close to day 1 of cappydom...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

cyberdigger ~

 Thanks. You're cook'n some grits now! But other than being able to identify the brand/bottler itself, what about your two bottles leads you to think they may be from day one? And please know I am not trying to put you on the spot here, as I don't know the answers myself yet. So this question goes out to everyone ... "How can we know with certainty whether cyberdigger's two bottles are from 1899 or 1909? Or somewhere inbetween?"

 Great photos, by the way, and exactly the sort of thing I have been looking for. And I agree, the just "gotta be" some of the first crown tops!  But, speaking entirely for myself, I'm just "guessing."

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

Well in the spirit of the quest for knowledge, I can make contributions only on  my intuition and the age of the digs from whence some of these came.. I will look through things here and see if there aren't any other crowns in the hoarde which are suspiciously early and post them with pics, but I've got more Q's than A's right now.. [] BTW I find your enthusiasm catchy and enjoyable!! Just one thing... are those _magic_ grits??


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

cyberdigger ~

 Nope ... not magic grits! Just everyday ground-up hominy. But your two "Red Bank's" are a couple Genie's in a bottle.

 I was wondering if you would be interested in disecting them? By that, I mean to tell us everything you can about them, including the mold seam placements, makers marks, tooled lip, etc., etc. Maybe you/we can figure out something about them that would establish some kind of guideline for a better understanding of early crown-tops. Earlier, "appliedlips" mentioned that some of the early crowns were "squats," and likely was referring to examples like yours.

 I hope to hear back from you soon. And if you are the ace photographer I suspect you are, maybe a couple of good closeups would help too.

 Gracias,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I ran across the information below, and was hoping someone could explain how to recognize those so called "shoulder air venting marks." This may be a significant clue in our continuing desire to date those earlier crowns. Regarding my "Godfrey Archer" bottle, (which is the only early crown I have), I just discovered it was actually made in a 4-piece mold, as opposed to the 3-piece mold I thought it was earlier. But other than the tooled finish on the lip/neck area, I don't see anything that looks like  "air venting marks."  HELP !!!  Where's Red Matthews (the mold guy) when you need him? 

 Thanks,

 SPB

                                                                          ~ * ~  

"Some of the early crown bottles had tooled crown finishes and were blown in a cup base mold with multiple shoulder air venting marks."


----------



## cyberdigger

Here's a family portrait for you, Bob.. on the right is one of the squats I showed yesterday.. the other two, believe it or not, are from the same exact mold, #376 on the base of both, and every facet of the embossing is identical.. I don't know if this demonstrates that blobs and crowns were made concurrently, or if they switched over from blob to crown during the life of the mold, but it says one or the other.. 







 Here's a close-up of the tall crown.. notice the bulge in the neck, about 3/8 inch from the lip portion, which creates the opinion of mine that the bottle was not designed for this lip treatment, which had to be an exact size to allow the cap to fit correctly.. conjecture, yes, but we who are interested in this TOC stuff need to work this out.. [8|]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

You may have "de-cybered" something there. I'm not sure what just yet, but someth'n. I've never been a proponent of coincidence, so I'm going to "guess" again and say the W.A.F. in the center was intended for a blob-top and adapted to fit a crown. We already know the early crowns were "applied," so everything seems to fit ... or, should I say, "not fit?" In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if we were able to look into a crystal ball into the past, that we would see and hear Mr. W.A. French saying to the bottle maker , "Hey Mr. Bottle Maker, I just bought one of them'thar new-fangled crown cap machine thingy's ... any chance of you making me some of the same bottles as last time, except this time make'em with crown tops?"  ...   And the rest of the story is history  ...   Maybe   ...  Maybe not  ...   How do you "prove" such a claim? 

 Great observation on noticing the difference between the two bottles. Do you have any cyber-thoughts regarding those so called "air venting marks?" 

 Thanks,

 S.P. Blob


----------



## cyberdigger

> Do you have any cyber-thoughts regarding those so called "air venting marks?"


 
 I think you are talking about the dots they put on the bottle to help the worker position the label properly? Or what? [8|]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Cy ~

 Do you remember that old TV program called "You Asked For It?"  Well, here's a sampling ...

                                                                        ~ * ~

*Dating notes:*  All mold air venting related dating trends relative to bottle manufacturing known to the author are only relevant to *mouth-blown* bottles.
Mouth-blown bottles: Air venting began being used significantly by the early to mid-1880s on mouth-blown bottles and appears to have been quickly accepted, becoming an industry standard by the early 1890s.  A large majority of all types of mouth-blown bottles made from or after the early 1890s exhibit mold air venting marks somewhere on the bottle shoulder, body and/or base.  Conversely, very few bottles made before 1880 will have mold air venting marks with the one speculative exception noted above. Check the surface of the bottle carefully as air venting marks can be very difficult to see and are sometimes easier to feel.  One clue to consider in your search for vent marks is that bottles made in molds with air venting usually have sharper, more distinct embossing and body design features (e.g., panel edges) and less distortion to the body glass than bottles without vent marks.  Conversely, bottles produced in non-air vented molds tend to have more rounded and/or flattened embossing and body design features and more surface glass texture distortion than air vented bottles. These characteristics are highly variable and can be difficult to discern even to the experienced eye though should be considered in hand with other dateable, manufacturing related, diagnostic features.  As a general rule, the more air venting marks present on the surface of a mouth-blown bottle the later the bottle was produced.  Specifically, just one or two very small air vent bumps on the front and back shoulders (cylindrical bottles) or the body shoulder corners opposite the vertical side mold seams (square or rectangular bottles) tend to be the earliest (mid to late 1880s through the 1890s) with multiple air venting marks scattered around the bottle, including those integrated into the embossing pattern, side mold seams, and/or on the bottle base, being the latest dating, i.e., 1900 -1920 (empirical observations). This ample venting helped insure that the embossing - and bottle shape - was as crisp and sharp as possible.​​Machine-made  bottles: There are no reliable mold air venting related dating trends known to the author for machine-made bottles made on semi-automatic or fully automatic machines.  Air venting marks may or may not be visually present on machine-made bottles from the earliest 20th century machines to those produced today (take a look at the bottles in your pantry).  The number and location of air venting marks appear to have no relationship to the age or type of bottle.​​                                                                    ~ * ~​​This, and the photo to follow on the next page will better illustrate what is being said here. With the bottom line being ... if you W.A.F. (Tall Green) bottle has any of these air venting "bumps" then more than lokely it is hand blown, as opposed to machine made ... thus making it a very early crown top. (I think ??? )​​SPB​​
​


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's another example of a flask with "multiple" air vent bumps.


----------



## cyberdigger

Thanks a lot! I guess you wouldn't believe me now if I said I was only kidding, would-ja?

 Anyways, there are no vent marks on these bottles.. unless they were cleverly hidden in the embossing..


----------



## cyberdigger

I don't think vent marks are a great way to date beverage bottles.. the method worked without them long enough to skip that part of bottle blowing development.. vent marks are just not to be found on this bottle type.. perhaps the very thickness of the glass was enough force to fill the mold nicely... as opposed to a skinny little med or a thin-walled flask..?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Cy ~

 Wrong answer!  []   You were supposed to reply back and say there "were" vent marks. So now I'm lost again. But we do know that your bottle wasn't made prior to 1892, and that mold venting didn't come about until the "late 1890s."  We also know that these vent marks typically are not found on the later machine-made bottles beginning "around" 1906 or later. 

 Bottom line?

 I'd say that any blown-in-a-mold crown top bottle was "most likely" made prior to 1906, but no earlier than about 1896. Thus, (in my opinion) making those same bottles some of the earliest crowns around.

 Next question ... are your W.A.F. bottles "Hand Blown" or Machine Made?" You have 60 seconds to respond!  Remember that old TV program called ... "Beat The Clock?"  Your time starts ... NOW !!!

 Tick-tick-tick ...

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

OK I found them.. three VERY faint dots in triangular formation over the slugplate.. you happy now? []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Fantastic! I knew you would find them. And to answer your question about whether I'm happy now?

                        The image below will have to suffice for now .... as it's dinner time!

 But I'll be back ... in the meantime, what about the "Hand-blown" vs. "Machine-made" question?

 Thanks a bunch,

 SPB


----------



## bottlesjhbottler

NICE BOTTLES I LOVE MY CROWN CAP GINGER BEERS,CHEERS


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks bottlesjhbottler ~

 I dig those ceramic bottles. Never dug one before, though. They would make an interesting study unto themselves. Nice collection.

                                                                      ~ * ~

 Some may be wondering why all the interest in being able to determine a "near exact" date for an old crown top soda bottle, or for any type of old bottle. Especially knowing that many learned individuals before us have been scrutinizing and researching this very subject for years. And yet it is the results of that research that most of us access on the internet or from books. But even with all the research that's been done, the authors of those works still use terms like "circa" - "about" - "possibly" - "maybe," etc; etc. ... and once in a while they even say "I'm guessing." So there we have it! Nobody knows for sure, and no one person has all the answers. Personally, I still have more questions than I do answers. 

 And yet, I will try and answer my own question by saying that I have of a sudden taken a genuine interest in turn of the century soda pop bottles. For the past thirty years or so my primary interest has been with ACLs from the mid 1950s. But now, I'm looking at new horizons, with the sun shining really bright on those wonderful old crown-top sodas like my grandpa use to pop open and drink as a kid. Extremely interesting time in American culture to research. It has kind of an early Walt Disney /  Norman Rockwell feel about it.

 The thing is, if I start getting into this so called "Victorian" age of soda bottles, I'd like to know something about them first. And the first thing I need to learn is how to recognize one when I see it. Because what I have in mind is to collect crown sodas "as near as I can get" to the year 1900. (Give or take a few years either way). Hopefully the end result of this thread will be to better prepare myself and others so we will have more confidence the next time we walk into a bottle show and see one of them gems sitting there waiting for us. I'd like to be able to walk up to the display table and say, "Hey, there's one of those 1902 John Doe bottles from Cityville, California. Wow! I'll take it." 

 But I'm not at the comfort level yet, which is why I am interested in being able to properly date bottles that don't already have a date on them like my collection of ACLs do. And thanks to y'all, I've already learned a ton of stuff and learning more every day.

                                                      Thanks for letting me jabber - 

                    And thanks for being a part of Antique-Bottles.net ... "Where the experts live."

                                                                      SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

> The thing is, if I start getting into this so called "Victorian" age of soda bottles, I'd like to know something about them first. And the first thing I need to learn is how to recognize one when I see it. Because what I have in mind is to collect crown sodas "as near as I can get" to the year 1900. (Give or take a few years either way)


 
 Just look for the hand-finished ones, Bob.. those tooled crowns positively date from 1892 to WW1...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks again cyberdigger  ~  you have been a tremendous help.

 And even though I have found examples of early crown sodas on e-Bay and elsewhere, it would still be great if members here could share a few photos and information of what they might have in their collections. And it would be especially nice if something other than straight sided Coca Cola bottles were to turn up. I know there are tons of those around, but I think it would be of particular interest to everyone concerned to see some of the other, more obscure brands that were also popular around the turn of the century. And I won't even ask that they be dated accurately. An approximate date like "circa 1900" is close enough for this country boy. Speaking of country boys, I wonder what type of sodas Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn were drinking back in ... 1??? 

 Thanks again,

 EARLYCROWNSODASBOB


----------



## appliedlips

Not that it helps on the venting question, but I think it misleading to compare English made bottles to American made crowntops as far as dating. Not that I know anything about English bottles but I have dug quite a few hand blown,applied lip crowns from across the pond in layers dating from the 1910-20 period. Their glasshouses took longer to transition into tooling lips and automatic bottle machines. As far as dating I think glasshouse marks and research on the bottlers themselves would be the only effective method since the bottles you are concentrating on are from such a short lived period..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

appliedlips ~

 Thanks. I was hoping to hear from you again. And you are 100% right! A study of the makers marks and specific bottlers of the era would be the place to look. But as we all know, those records can be a study in themselves. Which sort of brings me back to square one again. But this doesn't mean the search is over, only that I just need to pursue a slightly different avenue of research.

 Take Coca Cola for example. You would think with everything known about the company these days, that someone, somewhere would be able to say with definitive certainty which of their bottles was "the very first crown" Coke ever made. But even specifics on those particular bottles have eluded me so far. Almost without exception I keep running into terms like "circa 1905," etc. Which, like I said earlier, is close enough for me. But you'd think someone would have this all figured out by now.

 Lastly, my initial hope with all of this was simply to have a few old crown soda bottles (ideally from around 1899 or so) and be able to say, "Hey, check this out! This is one of the very first crown soda bottles ever made. Isn't it cool?"  

 But it looks like I will have to do some more homework before that day ever comes. And the place to start that research is with a list of bottlers and the dates when they first began operation. Which brings me to my next, and hopefully final question ...

                   Does anybody have a good internet link where I can find this information? 

 Thanks again to all,

 SPB

 P.S. Shortly I intend to post the photo of a bottle that I recently bought and "may" be a candidate as to what I have been looking for.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Although this is not a very good photo, it is of a bottle I purchased just this morning from e-Bay. I'm taking a gamble on it though, as the seller knew absoloutely nothing regarding the date other than to say it was "old." I know it's in pretty rough shape, with some extensive casewear, etc., but apparently there are no cracks or chips. I got it for just under $15.00, so I'm not too concerned about that part of the transaction. The only reason I even bought it was due to some research I did regarding (colbalt ?) "blue" crown top soda bottles. There may be exceptions as to what I discovered about them, (there are always exceptions), but it appears that this particular color of blue was rarely used after the turn of the century. (Most of the early soda bottles were either aqua or amber). Thus, I thought it would be a worthy candidate, and purchased so as to take a closer look at it and use it as a guinea pig in my continuing pursuit of those elusive first crown top soda bottles. It should be here within a week or so, and I will let you know what I discover about it when it arrives. Who knows, "maybe" I just purchased the very first crown soda ever made!  "NOT!"   []

                                   It has been real, and it has definitely been fun!

                                  Your soda pop collecting and researching buddy ...

                                                                 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And for good measure, I thought I would show this illustration of a 1901 bottle which, thus far, is the earliest confirmed date I have been able to find for a crown top soda. But whether it was actually ever put into full production or not still remains a mystery to me. I guess I will have to put it on my list of about 100 different things I still need to research.  Oh, woe-is-me!   []

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

Well, it's no sodee-pop, but you might like this, because I think it's the type of bottle you're looking for.. early brand name crown top products..  this one was hand blown in a mold and finished with a lipping tool, just like the good ole days, except the glass congealed a tad sloppily inside this specimen, making it a fun one to hold up in front of a light and twirl it around.. [] ..the Brooklyn bottling facility for which this container was made was.. indubitably.. a very big and  busy one, and there is a pretty good chance that some research could turn up some clues as to exactly when they began to use crowns.. instead of trying to navigate my way through TOC DOCS I offer to send this bottle to you at shipping cost, Bob.. for inspiration.. [] PM me if inerested..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Cy ~

 Thank you so much for the offer, and I may take you up on it in a week or two. But for the time being let's see what I can find out on the blue bottle I bought from e-Bay this morning. I've already done a little research on my bottle and, interestingly, it appears to have been made by the same Mfg. as yours. The only difference is your's says "Anheuser Busch," whereas mine says "Aldolphus Bush." According to the seller, my bottle is marked on the bottom ...  A. B. G. M. Co.  Which I already know stands for ... Aldolphus Bush Glass Mfg. Company, and that they were in business from 1891 to 1925. (I like the 1891 part, but the 1925 has me a little concerned). I'll PM you soon and discuss your most generous offer.

             Surely Aldolphus and Anheuser are connected/related?  Hmmm ...  More research.

                                                               Thanks again,

                                                                     Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

                     I forgot to mention that the label embossing on my blue bottle reads ...

                              "ACKERMAN SODA WATER - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI"

     But as yet I have found very little on Ackerman - and no additional photos of any of their bottles.


----------



## cyberdigger

Hey Bob, maybe some of   THESE   are BIM?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Cy ~

 Hey!  How'd you do that? Are you and "ncbred" the same guy? But don't answer that question. Just tell your buddy ncbred to send me the Durham, NC Coca Cola bottle for me to "research." I'm sure he will understand.  Seriously, that Durham bottle looks like a really good candidate for a super early crown. But who can say for sure?

 By the way, I just exchanged a couple of e-mails with Bill Porter (Coke Bottle Checklist) and even he admits it's "extremely difficult if not impossible" to precisely date early crown Coke's, not to mention other brands. He even added that if I stumble onto some kind of formula for dating them to let him know about it. In my opinion, if Bill doesn't know the answer, likely no one does. So with that said, I plan to change the focus of my search from the bottles themselves to the name on the embossing, and then to try and figure out when that particular bottler was in business. Bill said this is probably the only way to narrow it down without driving myself nuts! And I certainly don't want to lose my sanity over a little thing like a soda pop bottle. Right? - Wrong!  Because when I see what looks like an early crown sitting on the shelf in a antique shop, how the heck am I supposed to know how long the bottler had been in business when it's a company I never heard of? Especially when I have about two minutes to make a decision?  Hmmm ... Maybe I've already lost my mind. All this writing - writing - writing sure suggest it.

                           I think I'm going to take a nap now ... my head hurts!  Lol  []

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

[] you crack me up!!

 As you lay to rest, think peaceful thoughts.. like the splendid notion that these bottles were built to last years of service, and many of them did.. which is why it's so hard to put an exact year on early returnable bottles.. they lived long lives, some of them.. one reason I love 'em so much, they are sturdy little pieces of silicon heaven! []


----------



## celerycola

Your Ackerman was Ginger Ale, Cream, or Celery Soda.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celerycola ~

 Hmmm ... I wonder if the various flavors mentioned in the ad and your profile name have anything in common?

 Okay then. You're my new best friend! At least you will be if you can come up with a date for that ad. Just be sure it's sometime in the late 1800s or very early 1900s. If it's later than 1905, then I'm going over to cyberdigger's house and punch him in the nose. I know, I know, cyber is wondering what he did wrong, and the answer is that he didn't come up with the ad before you did. Man-o-man, it's hard to get good help these days.

 Seriously, that's a valuable bit of advertising memorabilia. And I see their phone number is listed. Maybe I should give them a call and find out how long they've been in operation. This is really great. I haven't even received my bottle yet, and I already feel like I hit a home run.

 Seriously serious this time ... Thank you for the contibution. I plan to blow up the image and frame it. By the way, where can a guy find that kind of imagery ... and if you say "gono.net," then I'm going to punch cyber in the nose again because I have that site in my favorites list and didn't even think of it until now. 

 Mucho gracias to one and all ... oh, and you too Cy.  []

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was wrong ... It wasn't gono.net - it was gono.com

 And although I didn't find an Ackerman Soda Water ad, I did find this one for Hires Rootbeer from 1896!  And if that isn't a crown-top soda bottle, then I don't know what is! Bingo! I'm on my way now!

 SPB


----------



## celerycola

1894


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celerycola ~

 I am assuming the 1894 is the date of the Ackerman Soda Water ad you posted. Which is good news for my blue bottle. I have searched for other Ackerman ads but haven't found anything yet. If you find one showing their bottle, please post it. Thanks again.

 cyberdigger ~

 I want to take this opportunity to thank you for your much appreciated participation in this thread. I couldn't have done it without you. You're a good sport and take ribbings with the best of them. Now all you have to do is send me that bottle you offered and we'll be best friends again.   Lol   []

                                                                          ~ * ~

 Following is a sampling of early magazine ads showing a variety of different crown soda bottles from the early 1900s. Thus far, the Ackerman and the Hires ads are the only ones I am aware of that date before 1900. I'm sure there are others, but nothing I have seen yet.

 WHITE ROCK 1903


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

DEERFIELD 1904


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

HIAWATHA 1906


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

ARCADIAN 1907


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Of the 1016 Coca Cola ads, this is the earliest one I could find showing a crown top soda. Most likely not their first crown bottle, but every ad I looked at prior to this date was of a soda fountain (served in a glass) type. I never did find one showing their hutch bottle, and at this point I'm not sure if they ever even advertised it in print.

 COCA COLA 1909


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One additional note I would like to add is that all of the preceeding ads show bottles with paper labels. Thus, without the label it would make them extremely difficult to identify. Which, in a way, "almost" puts us back to where we were earlier and trying to identify this era of bottles by the bottle design itself. But perhaps with additional research something may turn up to more easily recognize these bottles without their labels. But the problem with that is that all of these particular bottles would almost look the same and be pretty boring without the wonderful graphics the labels depict. Oh well, at least we know some of the earlier brands now.

 Also, did you notice in the Coca Cola ad there is no embossing on the bottle?  Hmmm, I wonder?

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

~ IN CONCLUSION ~

                                                  (At least for the time being).


   Most of us are familar with the following dates. I post them primarily for those who are not.

    This is a list in chronological order of the earliest national brand soda beverage companies. 

                                                          MOXIE 1884
                                                          DR. PEPPER 1885
                                                          COCA COLA 1886
                                                          HIRES 1890

 The U.S. Patent Office recognizes December 1, 1885 as the first time Dr Pepper was served. It was introduced nationally in the United States at the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition as a new kind of soda pop, made with 23 flavors. Its introduction in 1885 preceded the introduction of Coca-Cola by one year.

                                                          ~ MOXIE ~

 According to everything I have learned so far, "Moxie" may have been the first company to use the crown-top closure. Records indicate their first crown bottle was introduced in 1893. But whether the one shown here is an example of that bottle, I'm not sure. There were no specific details associated with the photo. But currently it is a strong contender for ...

             ~ AMERICA'S FIRST CROWN CLOSURE SODA POP BOTTLE ~  (?)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

~ MORE MOXIE ~

                                                            QUESTION :  

 Would this "crown-top" Moxie bottle with a "wire stopper" be considered as a "true" crown top?

                                                             ANSWER :

                          I vote "yes!" In my opinion a crown is a crown is a crown!

 (But I'm still not sure this is Moxie's first crown bottle. It may be later than I have been led to believe) ???


----------



## ncbred

Here is a pretty old one although its from the early 1900's.  Probably around 1908.  Punch I Nello from Goldsboro, NC.






 Mold seam stops about half an inch under the crown.  The seam also sticks out from the bottle about a 16th of an inch.  I tried to get a good picture of it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

ncbred ~

 Good photos?  Those are "Great" photos. And a great bottle to boot! I believe the "Punch" refers to the "Punch & Judy" puppets/cartoons that go way-way back. Google should have a ton of stuff on it.

 Super cool bottle! Thanks for sharing.

 Bob


----------



## celerycola

Circa 1905 ad for Orcherade - a soda brand sold by W. H. Hutchinson & Son of Chicago who first produced the Hutchinson Stopper in 1879. There was also Orcherade advertising picturing Hutch bottles.


----------



## celerycola

Punch-i-Nello label


----------



## Sam_MaineBottles

Concerning early Moxie bottles I believe most of them (except the hutches) were embossed with the words 'Moxie Nerve Food'. The FDA act of 1906 forced Moxie to drop the Nerve Food reference.  I sold my collection of Moxie Nerve Food bottles that contained 23 variants (lip styles and embossing) but there were at least 10 of them with BIM crown tops.  This pic is one of the few I have of that collection but it doesn't include the more common crown variety.

 -Sam


----------



## Sam_MaineBottles

In this quest to find early crown tops I can be of some help.  The Murdock & Freeman Co. of Portland ME included embossed years on their bottles for several years.  Here's a pic of a couple of their script embossed bottles from 1904, 1903 and 1902.


----------



## Sam_MaineBottles

Here are two more dated Murdock & Freeman crown top bottles, these are from 1901 and 1899.


----------



## Sam_MaineBottles

It's like doing the limbo, how low can you go?  The two bottles in this pic I always take with me when I do bottle presentations as they clearly demonstrate the transition to crown tops.  Thes two are both dated 1895.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celerycola ~

 I normally keep stuff like the following to myself, but since it was you who put the "Punch & Judy" idea in my head, and since I would never have thought to look for this in a million without your bottle connection, I feel obligated to share it with you now. Put let's keep this between us for the time being, and don't mention it to anyone else.  []

 I was looking on Google, as well as on e-Bay to see what I could find related to Punch & Judy, and discovered the puppets go as far back in England as early as the 1600s. But what I found that "really" caught my eye was on e-Bay. Someone is selling what they call their grandfather's "original" Punch & Judy mechanical, cast iron bank. No bids yet, with a $.99 cent option to open bidding. But what's so amazing about this is that there is another seller offering the same bank on a "Buy It Now" basis, and is asking $3,499.99 !  I don't think the $.99 seller even knows what they have. I should have kept my mouth shut and hoped no one else sees the $.99 cent one and then "steal" if if I can.  But, what the heck ... we are all friends here, right? Plus, I seriously doubt it will remain at $.99 cents for long. (Six days left). But I intend to watch it like a hawk anyway!  But even though it appears to be an original, I'm no expert and could be wrong. But I don't think so. Check it out and see what you think. Hopefully one of us will get it. Wouldn't that be nice. And please, no one send the seller a message with this information. It's not our fault if they don't know what they've got. Personally, this sort of thing doesn't make me feel guilty in the least.

 Good luck!

 SPB

 Here's the e-Bay link and photo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Punch-and-Judy-Bank-Old-/120560139646?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c11f1bd7e


----------



## Sam_MaineBottles

This pic is of two Murdock & Freeman blobs dated 1892 and 1894.  So to summarize, Murdock & Freeman made their switch to crown tops circa 1895.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Sam_MaineBottles ~

 Sorry 'bout that ... I got side-tracked for a minute.

 Your Murdock & Freeman bottles are awsome!  How much easier could it be? I've never-ever seen a bottle with the dates embossed on them like that. The 1895 Crown example is the earliest and first "confirmed" crown-top to date. Good job - and great photos!

 Thank you,

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

Wow that really is an EXCELLENT run of dated bottles, Sam!! WTG!!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I hope nobody minds this little detour. It's just too hot to pass up!

                Anyway, here's the link and photo of the $3,499.99 Punch & Judy bank.

                             I might be imagining things here ... but I don't think so!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Cast-Iron-Mechanical-Bank-PUNCH-AND-JUDY-/120304442945?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c02b41e41


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I intend this to be my last mention of the "Punch & Judy" bank.

 In fact, someone (Cy ? ) should "punch" me in the nose for even posting it. Because now that I have the two enlarged photos side-by-side for comparison, the $.99 cent one clearly appears to be a reproduction.

              But what still confuses me is the seller saying it was their "grandfather's" bank.

                 Anyway, "Buyer Beware!"  I'll keep an eye on it and see what develops.

 Heck, I can't even recognize an early crown soda bottle when I see one, what makes me think I know anything about old cast iron banks?

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

I'm not the violent type, but that probably is enough about the banks on this thread.. [&:]


----------



## ncbred

> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> Punch-i-Nello label


 
 Thanks for that!  Did any other town bottle Punch I Nello besides Goldsboro, NC?


----------



## coboltmoon

Hello Sam, I am glad I got to see your Moxie collection when it was complete, very impressive.
 A couple things I would like to add about the crowntop.  Somewhere I read that the crowntop was invented in France in the late 1880â€™s and was patented in the US later by completely different company apparently a somewhat common practice in the day.  So France may have the oldest crown top.
 I did just pick up a Moxie nerve food crown top that is often seen with a blob.  I will try to get a pick up soon.


----------



## Sodasandbeers

Baltimore is a good study for early crown top bottles; both beer and soda bottle.  In Baltimore, many of the large breweries consolidated into a beer trust in 1899 (Maryland Brewing Co.) and another in 1900 (Gottlieb Bauernschmidt Straus Brewing Co).  So any crown top bottles for the brewies that formed the Maryland Brewing Co. date 1892-1899. and any from the Maryland Brewing Company 1899-1900.

 Several collectors believe that the first crown used in Baltimore was by the George Bauernschmidt Brewing Co.  The earliest can be seen at this link Earliest Crown.  You can click on the pictures to expand them.  These crowns are hand applied and not swipe tops and are crudely applied.

www.sodasandbeers.com can be used to serach for other examples of early crown bottles. Although the I do not agressively catalogue crown top bottles, I will catalogue cross over bottles where the same mold is used to produce both blob and crown bottles.

 Painter was also a big advertiser of his closures.  I have lists of bottlers that he advertised using the Loop Seal in the early 1890s that list hundreds of bottles by state.  I believe that I have seen similar lists of crown users form the same period.  Get one of these list and you will be able to id early uses of crown.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Tod ~

 It was good to hear from you. You have certainly done your homework on old bottles, and your website is one of the best of it's kind. In fact, I was perusing it just the other day, and have had it in my favorites file for some time now. But, to tell you the truth, I eventually steered away from it when I discovered it primarily focused on hutch/blob type of closures. But I see now after taking another look at the beer bottle listings, (which I had passed over earlier), that there is a great deal of helpful information to be discovered. I am kind of wondering though why there are few if any dates listed with the image/description pages that focus on a particular bottle? But still a great site, and the first time I ever came across the term "pony bottle," which I had never heard of before. If you happen to have one of the "list" you referred to, or know of a link where one can be found, please share it with us. I wouldn't be surprised if it is just what I have been looking for. 

 Thank you for your time and interest in what is beginning to look like a "neverending" pursuit of the first/earliest crown-top bottle ever produced. You are to be commended for you contributions to the bottle collecting hobby worldwide. 

 In closing, I would like to share a little about the photo(s) below which, by the way, I found because of your recommendations. 

 I'm still researching these two particular bottles, and although the information on them was somewhat non-specific, it did say they were examples of the "transition" period from Hutch/Blob to Crown ... "Circa" 1900. It said both bottles were from Johannesburg (Mass ?) and were retrieved from the same dump in Forest Hill, (Boston area ?)  I would give my eye teeth for either one of them. I love emerald green bottles!

 Thanks again Tod ... My hat is off to you!

 Respectfully,

 SODAPOPBOB ... a.k.a., Bob  [] 

 Blob on left = Kops & Rawlings
 Crown on right = Crystal Springs


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Like I've said previously, this appears to be a "neverending" thread. But this may be the last post from me on the subject unless I happen to stumble across something specific that distinctly states, "This is the earliest crown bottle known to man." But I'm beginning to think this may never occur. 

 So with that said, I would like to cast the spotlight on Coca Cola for a moment who, as we all know, surely must have been in the thick of things during the transition period from Hutch to Crown. And yet, even with the endless amount of information available on the history of the Coca Cola company, the information regarding their first crown-top bottles is somewhat sketchy at best.

 The straight-sided Coca Cola bottle shown here is listed as "circa" 1900-1905, and most likely is one of Coca Cola's very earliest crowns. But to say for a fact it is the "first" one that Coca Cola ever produced is something we may never know for sure. Perhaps a visit by someone to the Coca Cola museum in Atlanta, Georgia will be where the answer(s) will eventually be found.

 But please don't hesitate to keep posting those photos. I'm sure our elusive "King of the Crowns" is out there somewhere.

 Thanks again to all members who took the time and interest to participate in and/or view this thread.

 My hat is off to each and every one of you.

 Sincerely,

 SODAPOPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here is the "Ackerman Soda Water Co." bottle I spoke about at the top of page 4.  On that same page, member "celerycola" posted an old Ackerman magazine ad he said was from 1894.  I just got my bottle in the mail today and was pleasantly surprised to discover it was in a lot better shape than the seller had indicated. He said it was badly caseworn. But as you can see from the photo there is barely any rubbed areas on it at all. I think I did okay for $15.00.

 I'm still trying to more accurately date it. It has a huge embossed "A" on the bottom, and a teany-tiny (slant/connected) AB on the heal. I found this for the small AB, but not sure yet about the huge "A."

                                          "American Bottling Company 1905-1917"

 The information I found on this company is a little confusing. Maybe someone can tell me more. My bottle is definitely blown in a mold, and has an applied and tooled lip. Plus it's obviously a "crown-top." 

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding my interest in finding out more about the American Bottling Company, I contacted Bill Lockhart, (who is well know for having done extensive research on various aspects of bottling), and below is the copy/pasted reply to the inquiry I sent him. So it appears that my Ackerman bottle is a fairly early crown, but obviously not the first. However, I am still interested in fnding out more about the "Ackerman Soda Water Co." of St. Louis, Missouri, and if anyone has information or a website link regarding this, I would very much appreciate hearing from you. 

 Thanks,

 SPB

 (Bill Lockhart's reply).

Hi Bob,
  [/align]That bottle style was popular during the very early 20th century, especially the 1900-1910 period. With the AB-connected manufacturer's mark, it would date between 1905 and 1909. The large "A" on the base is for Ackerman. Crown-capped soda bottles often had either the initial of the company, the company name (if the name were short enough), or the two initials of the owner on the base from about 1900 to the mid-1930s. This was a hangover from the Hutchinson-style bottles that were used prior to the invention of the crown cap. Hutchinsons were packed with the finish/top down to keep the seal wet. In order to easily distinguish that a case of empty bottles ONLY had their own brand, many Hutch users had their initial (or company name) embossed on the base in a large letter. The practice continued with crown caps -- even though the main reason no longer existed.[/align] [/align]The terms soda water, soda pop, pop, and soda all mean exactly the same thing. Soda water is the oldest term. It was eventually shortened to just "soda" and was the term used by the bottling and bottle making industries. Pop was a term used in common speech. It apparently originated in England in the late 19th century with cod-stopper bottles. When the marble that plugged the opening was forced into the bottle, it made a loud popping sound, and the kids began calling it "pop."[/align] [/align]Bill[/align]


----------



## Bottle Junkie 56

ncbred, Punch-I-Nello was also bottled in Rocky Mount, NC. I have the bottle. It is aqua with the little goomer figure embossed on it, but no 5 cent embossing. Much tougher to find than Wilson. Thanks. Randy


----------



## RED Matthews

Hello to both Jay and SPB.  This thread is the type of thing I enjoy on the Forum.  Thank you both for your reviews.  Through my years of working with glass studies, I never had the time to get into all the little details of when, what type of finish was used from when to when, or all the different types of glass items that had their own indiviual ideosyncracies.  These coverages help a lot  Thanks!!!
 RED Matthews


----------



## Lordbud

"I'd say that any blown-in-a-mold crown top bottle was "most likely" made  prior to 1906, but no earlier than about 1896."

 Well, none of the other more Advanced Collectors out here in California posted. So a little information:  the PCGW (Pacific Coast Glass Works of San Francisco) didn't switch over to machine made bottles until 1923-24. We have a wealth of tooled crowntop sodas made by PCGW from cities all over California but perhaps moreso in the Bay Area. Most Advanced Western collectors would eschew the very thought of digging a tooled crowntop but I have added a good number to my collection over the past few decades. Many of these tooled crowns are reeduckulously common (for example Williams Bros, S&E Golden West, Oakland Pioneer, Hayward, etc.) however some are perhaps less common than others. See my thread here for a trip South from San Francisco on the railroad stopping in various cities to sample their crowntop offerings...https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-214059/mpage-1/key-train/tm.htm#214062

 Paid $25.00 for this at the recent Golden Gate show, Mayfield Soda Works. I'm personally aware of about ten known examples, but I would be surprised if there weren't at least several more sitting in boxes in some bottle collectors' garages. These always are clean, and are almost certainly products of the PCGW.


----------



## Lordbud

Mayfield was annexed to Palo Alto in 1925. The hutch is one of the rarest from Cali.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lordbud ~

 Thanks for the info. It's good to here from another California collecter. I'm interested in checking out your website, but the link didn't post properly. Maybe you could try it again.

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was surfing the internet today researching something else bottle related, when I accidentally stumbled onto this bottle that was described as follows ...

 Description :

 "Round Bottom Soda Bottle Applied Crown Top ca.1890s. Also known as a Cucumber.This bottle was blown in a mold, and has what is known as an applied crown finish closure.The lip, a crown top, was fashioned after the bottle was removed from the mold in which it was blown. It is 8-1/4 inches long. Nice shade of aqua. Probably held Gingerale, though other soft drinks were bottled in round bottom bottles as well. Mouth-blown, true applied crown finish closure soda bottles are very uncommon. Mouth-blown, tooled crown finish soda bottles date from possibly as early as 1894, but more likely from about 1897."

 Unfortunately there is no embossing or other marks on this particular bottle for identification, but I can't help but wonder if this may be an example of our mysterious "First of the Crowns?" Besides the photo shown here, I also have a closeup of the base which shows it is indeed a fully rounded bottom with no hint of a flat surface. Typically a pure rounded bottom is only found on Hutchison and similar early bottles. So, once again, I can't say for sure. 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record, here's the closeup of the fully rounded bottom.


----------



## Lordbud

This is a thread right here on the forum:

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-214059/mpage-1/key-train/tm.htm#214062


----------



## ruccello

Sodapopbob, are you sodabottlebob from TN? You ID'd an imposter coke hobbleskirt for me recently - "handy hold bottle" BIM. I was just reading this post and noticed the round bottom applied crown top pictured. I have the exact same bottle, found at the same dump as the imposter coke. Very crude top, very heavy, mold seam goes around the entire base. I also have a similar one with a partially flat bottom from same dump. I'm glad I saw it on this thread, as there doesn't seem to be much info on it anywhere.

 Richard


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

ruccello ~

 Welcome aboard. I'm fairly new to Antique-Bottles.net myself.  

 That pirate from TN and I be the same scoundrel. I've set my sails here lately. More bottles equal more rum, er ... I mean "fun."  

 I recall the "Handy Hold" bottle topic, but when I went back to check it out again I couldn't find it. I can't remember the title.

 Stick around. The folks here are the best of the best, and if they don't have the answers I do!  Lol  []

 SODAPOPBOB ...  a.k.a. SPB ...  a.k.a. SBB ... a.k.a. Bob ...  a.k.a. Dad ...  a.k.a. Grandpa  []


----------



## ruccello

Bob, it's nice to hear from you - I had a feeling you were one and the same! I enjoy reading your posts, always extremely informative. I pop on this site every now and then to see what's new. I've been really interested in sodas lately, as I've been finding many early crown tops, and some very interesting ones. I'll have to post some new finds here. I'm digging tomorrow, so I should have even more. I'll try to post some next week. 

 Richard


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I hope this update will interest those of you who have been following this thread. I have been in contact with two of the nations leading experts involved with bottling history, and although most of you would immediately recognize their names, I will refrain from mentioning them just yet until I get their permission, as both are published researchers and I want to respect their privacy.

 Both of these individuals have expressed a genuine interest regarding the "When" and, by "Who" of the first crown closure soda bottles. As it turns out there appears to be very little, if any, published information specifically dealing with this topic. My inquiry was forwarded to what was referred to as "The Bottle Research Group," (Which I'm sure many of you have heard of). As far as I know they are the leaders in this field.

 What I am discovering most interesting of all is the possibility that this little thread of ours may be the first of it's kind to fully address this subject. The two researchers I've been referring to have both said they are surprised by the lack of readily available information there is on this time period of the early bottling history. And it also appears they are going to look into it with renewed interest, and have promised to get back to me when they find something. Who knows, this might even be the beginning of a new book. Of course, this is just wishful thinking on my part, but one never knows what might develop. In any event, my personal research continues, and I am holding my breath in anticipation of hearing back from the two experts. 

 In closing, I wish to add it "appears" that Hires Rootbeer may be the place to focus our attention. And for anyone wishing to do additional research, another place to look might be with the history of "The Crystal Bottling Company," who supposedly were the first company to bottle Hires in 1893. So far I haven't found out much on this company, and would appreciate your help if you are so inclined.

 Thanks again for everyone's interest in this subject, and I will keep you posted as the information develops. And hopefully I will hear back from some of you as well.

 Sincerely,

 Bob

 P.S.  Here's an image that may also lead to more clues and/or information. (Date unknown, but no earlier than 1892-93).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> I offer to send this bottle to you at shipping cost, Bob.. for inspiration.. PM me if inerested..


 
 This is a reminder for "cyberdigger."  The quote above was posted on April 21, 2010. Since then I have sent you two PMs. It's no big deal really, but I'm wondering if you need to check your in-box. The PMs I receive usually come through my e-mail notifications. But maybe your's is set up that way.

 Anyhoo ... I'll take that bottle if you are still interested in sending it. Plus, I'll send you something in return for the courtesy. We'll figure out what later. Just PM me your address, or include it if/when you send me your package. My mailing address is with both of the PMs I sent you.

 Thanks a million, and I hope to hear from you soon.

 Bob

 P.S.  This may also be of interest to others who possibly have PMs in their in-box but don't realize it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

General Interest ~

 I'm not sure how I missed seeing this Bill Lockhart article before, but I sure did. The title suggest that it's primarily about the soda bottling history of El Paso, Texas. But I have found it to be so much more than that, and is in itself a mini history of soda bottling nationwide. It's pretty long - 66 pages - but should be of interest to anyone who has never read it before, and especially to Texas collectors. I felt it would fit well here as it discusses a great deal about early crown closure soda bottles. I hope you enjoy it.

 By the way, I'm still researching early crowns, and although I am making some progress regarding the "Who" and "When" of their very first use, the process has been slow but rewarding. I hope to have more information to post in the future.

 Take care,

 Bob

 Link to Bill Lockhart's article ...  http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap1-4.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still hot on the trail of the who-and-when of the first crown-closure soda bottle, and although I haven't fully nailed it down yet, indications (like the following) keep pointing to Hires Rootbeer as possibly being one of, if not the first. Hires started with syrup in 1876, but ...

                                       {Quote from a Hires Rootbeer history website}

 "The Hires family continued to manufacture root beer and in 1893 first sold and distributed bottled root beer. Charles Hires and his family certainly contributed greatly to the popularity of modern root beer, however, the origins of root beer can be traced further back in history."

 So if you happen to have one of these 1893 bottles, and it's a crown top, then you can possibly make history by sharing it with us. The earliest example of a Hires crown bottle that I have been able to find so far is 1896.

                  Thanks ... and hopefully one of these days I/we will have this figured out.

 SPB

                                                Hires Rootbeer magazine ad 1896


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I hope no one minds my resurrecting this thread from time to time ... with this particular posting to reiterate a reference I keep running across for Hires Rootbeer, and how it is claimed they started bottling their beverage in 1893. As we know, the crown closure wasn't invented until 1892. So Hires may very well have been the first national brand to use the crown top. However, I am not "absolutely" certain about this, and the only early Hire's bottles I can find with crown tops are like the one shown below. Also, here's one of the references I'm talking about ...

 Dr. Russell Conwell convinced Charles to present his root beer at the 1876 Philadelphia Centennial Exhibition. Hires root beer was served at their soda fountains and was a huge success. Hires also sold their root beer extract and their cough syrup. In 1893, Hires offered bottled root beer for the first time. Once the public tasted Hires root beer, the demand exploded.

 If someone happens to have one of these early Hire's bottles in their collection (with label intact) please post it for us to see, and perhaps study.

 Thanks again,

 SPB

 This particular image is from a 1896 magazine ad, and is a cropped version of the one I posted previously. It is the earliest image of a Hire's crown top bottle I have found so far.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Additionally ...

 It would also be doing me a huge favor if someone had one of the following Dr. Pepper bottles in their collection, and could post a photo of it. I'm close to putting together a "Top Five" crown list, but rather than post magazine ads, etc., I would prefer actual photos instead. By the way, I recently heard from one of the nations top researchers, and he complimented me on taking on such a "Herculean Task" of trying to identify the first crown closure soda bottles. He added that he was surprised this has never been fully addressed before, and was equally surprised on how little information their is to narrow down the dates and brand names. He offered his assistance, and may very well publish his own article eventually. But he too has been running into some of the same road-blocks that I/we have, and stated it will be a milestone if/when someone completes this area of research and connects all of the dots.

 Here's the information regarding the Dr. Pepper bottle I am looking for. I think they are referring to the same bottle, but with just a slight difference in the wording. Thanks again to all, I sincerely appreciate everyones help and interest.

 SPB

  1897, Crown Top, Artesian M.F.G. & Bottling Co., â€œRegisteredâ€ embossed on Shoulder, has A on bottom.

 1897, Crown Top, Pre Thief, only has registed on shoulder, paper label, has â€œAâ€ on bottom.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here is a "sample" photo of what I believe is one of the first crown top Dr Pepper bottles. However, this particular example has a "D" on the bottom, for Dallas, Texas. And although the one I am hoping someone has in their collection may be identical, it is the one with an "A" on the bottom for Artesian, that I am hoping to see. Plus, this "D" bottle has no confirmed date with it, which is something I hope to establish with the "A" bottle. (But please post either one, and you will be included in the "Top Five" oldest (known so far) major brand crown top soda bottles).  Whew!  I just barely made it through all of this repeated "A" vs "D" references. Sorry 'bout that ...  [8|]   

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## Wangan

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> Unfortunately there is no embossing or other marks on this particular bottle for identification, but I can't help but wonder if this may be an example of our mysterious "First of the Crowns?" Besides the photo shown here, I also have a closeup of the base which shows it is indeed a fully rounded bottom with no hint of a flat surface. Typically a pure rounded bottom is only found on Hutchison and similar early bottles. So, once again, I can't say for sure.
> 
> SPB


 
 Would this possibly have been a corker with a crown top? I thought round bottoms were made to keep the cork stopper wet so as not to dry out.This has been an interesting and informative ride through history for sure!


----------



## TheCaliKid

Nice bottles everyone!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

wangan ~

 Here's a link where I got that photo, which is about all I know about it. But so far there has been no way to "confirm" the date it was made, thus putting it on the back burner for now unless something more substantial turns up on it. It's still a bit of a mystery bottle, and was part of a topic of discussion a while ago. Scroll back through the soda forums to page 5 and look for a thread titled, "Ever See a Round Bottom Hutch?" by jays emporium. Round bottom bottles were discussed at some length there, including the one you posted. Plus, here is the original link (if it's still active ?) where I found the info.  http://www.etsy.com/listing/35960982/round-bottom-soda-bottle-applied-crown

 Part of the mystery is why would they make a round bottom bottle (typically intended to lay on it's side to seal and keep the cork wet) when the crown closure would seal it just fine without having to do this. All things considered, I personally don't think it is "one of the first," crowns, but I could be wrong.

 Thanks for the interest,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Cali ~

 Good to "see" you again. Thanks for stopping by for a visit. I hope you enjoyed it. And here's what I call "The pot of gold" at the end of the rainbow. If you haven't run across this site yet, I'm sure it will soon be one of your favorites just as it is mine and numerous others. It is quite extensive, and all I can say is to start clicking away and see what you find. Start with the "Soda & Beer Collector's Pad" and go from there. The yellow highlighted areas that appear will connect you to a wide world of soda bottles. And the "Ad Art Gallery" (especially the "thousands" of soda ads) are a work of art unto themselves.

 Enjoy, and good luck tomorrow.

 SPB

 Link :   http://www.gono.com/


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just wanted to take a moment and expound on why I feel the "round bottom crown" is not one of the first "American" crowns.

 1.   It is thought by some that the crown closure was first invented in Europe, (England - France ?) and that William Painter's "patent" was just that ... The first "U.S. Patent" on a European design. And although I and others have researched this idea, currently there is nothing that I know of to substantiate it one way or the other. And since our primary interest here is with American only soda bottles, I have put the European research behind me, and will leave it for others to figure out.

 2.   It is possible these so called "cucumber" bottles may very well have been a transition of some sort from Hutchinson bottles to Crowns, but it has all the earmarks of being foreign, thus a mystery bottle until more research can be done.

 If someone has anything to add to this, your comments are always welcome.

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## coboltmoon

Here is a pic of a super early Moxie nerve food crown top.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

colboltmoon ~

 Man! Talk about resurrecting the dead ... this thread was buried on index page 28. It hasn't been posted to since June 18, 2010.  []

 Thanks for sharing your Moxie bottle. I still have a lot of research to do on the brand. But I did find the photo below of the same (similar ?) bottle with a portion of the original label. It also shows what may be one of the earliest "caps" ever.

 See if anyone can come up with an agreeable count on the 'teeth.'  The first 1892 caps had 24 teeth. The later and current ones have 21.  On this particular cap I come up with either 22 or 23. (Possibly 24 ? ). It was already cropped this way, and I can't quite make out the bottom 'points.'

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## cyberdigger

Personally, I find resurrecting the dead easier than counting teeth! [] Every once in a while somebody brings a post from 2004 (for example) usually because it came up in a search.. our words ring eternal..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey Cyber ~

 Long time to see. I'm glad someone opened this "Pandora's Box."  []

 Regarding the teeth ... there are 20 showing "for sure."  But how many more I'm not sure.

 Later

 SPBOB


----------



## cyberdigger

I'm gonna say 21 teeth.. I doubt there's four of them squished together at the bottom! []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Yeah ... You may be right. I really don't know. But if I were a betting man (and I yam) I'd have to say at least ...  22   [8|]

 Below is one of the places I came up with the 24 count. Plus I have read other accounts to this. One of which was on a bottle cap website.  


 From 1892 Patent.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

On April 22, 2010, (page 4 of this thread), member Sam_MaineBottles shared his amazing collection of Murdock V Freeman bottles with us. My interest in those particular bottles resulted in a search for one of my own. I lucked out recently and found exactly the one I was looking for. It is the 1895 example and is the earliest "confirmed" date on a crown closure bottle I am aware of. I was excited to obtain it and add it to my collection.  It is now one my personal favorites.

 After examining it I noticed something distinctive about it that I was previously not aware of. In the photos that follow you will notice that these early crowns have what I call a "tapered-top." By this I mean that the very top of the lip has a slight "shoulder" on it that sharply tapers at an angle that is not like they are now.

 This original William Painter patent image should better illustrate my point. Notice that the outer edge of the very upper lip is more sharply moulded and less round.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's my 1895 Murdock V Freeman bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here is a closeup of the same bottle along with a typical crown from the 1950s. The Murdock V Freeman is on the right. See how it looks different from the other one. The post 1900 bottles don't usually have the angled and more unusual lip.

 So this may be something to look for when trying to identify pre 1900 crowns that are not marked or easily dated.

 If you know of a 1894 or earlier crown closure bottle, I sure would like to see it.

 Thanks for stopping by.

 SDODAPOPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This final page is dedicated to Sam_MaineBottles


*THANK YOU !!!*


----------



## cowseatmaize

Before the crown caught on the made the lips but did this. It may have been said but I didn't re-read the whole post.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

cowseatmaize ~

 Thanks for drawing attention to an aspect of this topic that has not been fully researched by anyone that I know of. Which is ... "Exactly" when did they start using crown caps vs crown closures? We do know that William Painter patented both in 1892 and that they were filed separately by only a few months, with the bottle closure being the first of the two patents. But when they started slapping metal caps on them we may never know. I have tried to find an answer to this question, but as yet have not been able to find a precise date. To be honest with you, I think we lucked out by coming up with the 1895 Murdock V Freeman bottle. Had it not been for the fact they have the dates embossed on them, I'm not sure we would have been able to accurately date them. Most of the pre-1900 crown bottles are difficult, if not impossible, to properly date. (At least by any method that I am aware of). For example, the Freeman bottle I own has no maker's mark on it of any kind. (Please refer back to page 4 of this thread where you will find Sam_MainBottle's chronological order of the Murdock V Freeman bottles. It will better illustrate my point than I could ever put in words here).

 Regarding the Moxie bottles, they have always been a strong contender for being some of the earliest crowns. But as I recall, the earliest "confirmed" date we were able to come up with was 1897, and I believe that was from a magazine ad. And by some standards, magazine ads are not always accepted as a "true" form of identifcation as to when a certain bottle was actually "made." The same is true with the Hires bottles; lots of text references and magazine ads, but no "precise" confirmation on the bottles themselves.

 I'm not sure it will be me, but it would be interesting to see what can be found regarding exactly when the first crown caps were used. As it is now, I'm personally happy with Sam_MaineBottles discovery of the Freeman bottles. This doesn't mean there are no 1892 - 1893 - 1894 bottles. They may very well exist. But finding and confirming them is the tricky part.

 Thanks again for participating. And I hope my discourse here has helped in part to answer your question.

 SPBOB

 Sam_MaineBottles 1895 Murdock V Freeman crown bottle with "ceramic" seal.  Where's the William Painter metal cap ???  That's the $64.00 question!  []  (Please note:  These ceramic seals were not always "factory" applied, and may have been an after market application). ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 The following is copy/pasted from page one of a "Part Two" that I started on this subject. But for some reason it's this original thread that keeps popping up. Here is the link to Part Two for anyone interested in checking it out.

 A-B.net Link :  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-320458/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#320458

 And here is an article from Part Two that may help explain some of the early transitions in question here. I can't recall exactly who wrote the article, but believe it was either Bill Lockhart or Bill Lindsey. However, I do know that the 1895 Murdock V Freeman bottle has been confirmed as authentic and is currently the earliest "know" crown closure bottle. 

                                                                   ~ * ~

The crown cap was not an immediate success since it required new bottles, new bottling machinery, and a level of uniformity of bottle manufacture that was just beginning to be possible in the early 20th century. It was also possibly perceived as being "too good to be true" - the corollary to the human inclination to resist change.  There was also already a lot of fully functional beverage bottles in use that only accepted other closure types; businesses could not or would not make the large investment in new bottles without some proof that this new closure was a significant improvement on the old. Although it has been noted that by 1905 less than 25% of U. S. bottlers had adopted the crown finish/bottles, some areas seemed to have adapted to the new closure earlier.  For example, El Paso, TX. appeared to have the majority of bottles with crown finishes by 1905 or so. Conversion also came a little faster in New England and the Mid-West. 


 [/align]*Dating Notes*:  It appears that no crown finish bottles date prior to the 1892 patent date. In fact, virtually all crown finish (soda and beer) bottles date to after ca. 1894-1895, since in 1893 a national depression (the famous "Panic of 1893") made investment capital very scarce for several years deterring the use of new and expensive equipment like that needed to accommodate this new closure.  As an example of the progression in acceptance of this finish/closure style, the crown finish first shows up in the 1896 _Illinois Glass Co._ catalog with just one soda bottle offering. In 1899 the IGCo. offered several different crown soda bottles. By 1903 21 different soda bottle molds were listed with crown finishes, and 37 different molds listed by 1911.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> The following is copy/pasted from page one of a "Part Two" that I started on this subject. But for some reason it's this original thread that keeps popping up. Here is the link to Part Two for anyone interested in checking it out.
> 
> A-B.net Link :  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-320458/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#320458
> 
> And here is an article from Part Two that may help explain some of the early transitions in question here. I can't recall exactly who wrote the article, but believe it was either Bill Lockhart or Bill Lindsey. However, I do know that the 1895 Murdock V Freeman bottle has been confirmed as authentic and is currently the earliest "known" crown closure bottle.
> 
> ~ * ~
> 
> The crown cap was not an immediate success since it required new bottles, new bottling machinery, and a level of uniformity of bottle manufacture that was just beginning to be possible in the early 20th century. It was also possibly perceived as being "too good to be true" - the corollary to the human inclination to resist change.  There was also already a lot of fully functional beverage bottles in use that only accepted other closure types; businesses could not or would not make the large investment in new bottles without some proof that this new closure was a significant improvement on the old. Although it has been noted that by 1905 less than 25% of U. S. bottlers had adopted the crown finish/bottles, some areas seemed to have adapted to the new closure earlier.  For example, El Paso, TX. appeared to have the majority of bottles with crown finishes by 1905 or so. Conversion also came a little faster in New England and the Mid-West.
> 
> 
> [/align]*Dating Notes*:  It appears that no crown finish bottles date prior to the 1892 patent date. In fact, virtually all crown finish (soda and beer) bottles date to after ca. 1894-1895, since in 1893 a national depression (the famous "Panic of 1893") made investment capital very scarce for several years deterring the use of new and expensive equipment like that needed to accommodate this new closure.  As an example of the progression in acceptance of this finish/closure style, the crown finish first shows up in the 1896 _Illinois Glass Co._ catalog with just one soda bottle offering. In 1899 the IGCo. offered several different crown soda bottles. By 1903 21 different soda bottle molds were listed with crown finishes, and 37 different molds listed by 1911.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops!  I hit the "Quote" button instead of the "Edit" button like I intended to ... and don't know how to fix it!  Sorry 'bout that. [8|]   (But the only difference between the two is the corrected spelling of the word know to known). 

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola

THOSE CRAZY CANUCKS;
 (Earliest Crown Soda in Western Canada)

 I just received my copy of Pioneer Soda Water Companies of BC and read that the earliest Crown Soda Bottle in British Columbia dates to 1907. The interesting thing about this one is it's a 'hybrid.' It was made to use either a crown or an internal screw stopper. What do you expect from a country where their National Sport is Hockey.


----------



## Bixel

Little known fact about Canada.... our national sport is actually Lacrosse.


 The More you Know.......


----------



## celerycola

> ORIGINAL:  Insulators Rule!
> 
> Little known fact about Canada.... our national sport is actually Lacrosse.
> 
> The More you Know.......


 Thanks for setting me straight. My grandparents came from Canada but neither had an interest in sports. I've missed the Toronto Bottle Show the last couple of years.

 Dennis currently living across the Niagara River two miles from Canada.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Celery ~

 Interesting bottle. That's a new one to me too. I've never heard of a crown that was "threaded." I wonder if it was patented? And if so, what it would be called ... "A screwed up crown?"   Lol  []

 Thanks

 SPBOB


----------



## web44ca

Here is an early crown top beer bottle ... applied crown ... the bottom has what some call a bare iron pontil mark ... & the bottom style also indicates a date earlier than the late 1890's ... comments anyone.


----------



## epackage

That is NOT any kind of pontil but the bottle appears early...


----------



## cowseatmaize

As Jim said it's not a pontil base. Crown tops were long after that era and into the early machine age and beyond. Yours I would guess 1905-20 but could be a bit later depending on where it was manufactured. That has yet to be determined.


----------



## surfaceone

Hey Ron,

 Long time no see, not even a card... I agree that is not pontiled.

 Knowing of your figural expertise, I gotta ask you to take a look at this thread: https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/%22Noble-Catcher%22-Is-this-a-Cyrus-Noble-Whiskey-Bottle%3F/m-494423/tm.htm

 I'd be interested to learn your thoughts.


----------



## web44ca

My reference to a pontil mark comes from Munsey's book ... am quite aware of the evolution of the glass bottle & the time period of the crown top ... but have always been puzzled by Cecil Munsey's photo & description.


----------



## epackage

Here is a nice 1900 crown, coolest part for me is the compnay was making hutch's at the same time and for at least another 5 years after this one.....


----------



## epackage

Here's how I know it was for 5 more years...


----------



## epackage

> ORIGINAL:  web44ca
> 
> My reference to a pontil mark comes from Munsey's book ... am quite aware of the evolution of the glass bottle & the time period of the crown top ... but have always been puzzled by Cecil Munsey's photo & description.


 While this may look similar to you they are not nearly them same....but I love the color of your crown, it's not too dark...


----------



## Wheelah23

The "iron pontil" mark is easily identifiable by the rusty iron residue left on the bottom of the bottle. Your crown doesn't have that, although Munsey's picture makes it easy to see where you went wrong. It's probably 1900-1910, and definitely made in Europe, whose glass manufacturing techniques lagged behind ours for a decade or two.


----------



## web44ca

Appreciate your comments especially that it may have been produced in Europe ... my crown top beer has been ID. as being used by A. Keiths brewery in Halifax Nova Scotia ... during recent construction at the brewery site... shards & whole bottles have been found identiical to mine.

 Here is a 1860's 3-piece mold liquor with what might be the bare iron pontil mark ???


----------



## celerycola

I like those dated Hutches.


> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Here's how I know it was for 5 more years...


----------



## web44ca

Thought it would be a good comparison to show the two bottoms together ... now ... what is the "nipple" on the crown top?


----------



## web44ca

Thanks Jim ... your hutch dated photo provides a clear & better understanding into the many exceptions to the rule that regional production provided ... without the amazing photo ... wouldn't believe the hutchinsons were produced in the 20th cent.


----------



## cowseatmaize

> ORIGINAL:  web44ca
> 
> Appreciate your comments especially that it may have been produced in Europe ... my crown top beer has been ID. as being used by A. Keiths brewery in Halifax Nova Scotia ... during recent construction at the brewery site... shards & whole bottles have been found identiical to mine.
> 
> Here is a 1860's 3-piece mold liquor with what might be the bare iron pontil mark ???


 Again, sorry. That's more like a scottish whiskey from the same 1910-20 or even later. They look old as the hills but aren't.


----------



## celerycola

Two Birmingham bottlers: National Dope Company started in 1909 and Birmingham Bottling Company started in 1911 used Hutches alongside crowns. One of the Birmingham Bottling Company Hutches has contents embossed to comply with the Gould Amendment indicating 1914 or later. Jefferson County Bottling Works reportedly used them as late as 1918 and one of their bottles has a seam at the top of the blob indicating a machine made bottle. 


> ORIGINAL:  web44ca
> 
> Thanks Jim ... your hutch dated photo provides a clear & better understanding into the many exceptions to the rule that regional production provided ... without the amazing photo ... wouldn't believe the hutchinsons were produced in the 20th cent.


----------



## web44ca

first off ... expert doesn't apply to me ... I have some knowledge on the late Victorian French figurals ... had enough passion to produce a website on them ... very little knowledge on American figurals & nothing on sports related figurals.

 Had a look at the Noble Catcher figural ... first impression ... the basic form & detail characteristics looks more European than American ... the base & bottom look French & certainly frosted French figurals are common ... sheared finish not that common except for candy containers & lay down perfumes.

 The baseball player must be a figural wine bottle holder???  amazing clarity ... you must have the new 36.8mp. Nikon???


----------



## surfaceone

> ORIGINAL:  web44ca
> 
> Thought it would be a good comparison to show the two bottoms together ... now ... what is the "nipple" on the crown top?


 
 Hey Ron,

 It's a Mamelon. Thanks for your thoughts on that Catcher figural.

 "*Mamelon*  - The following description of a mamelon is from Jones & Sullivan (1989): "A rounded eminence, a small circular protrusion found on the basal surface, usually at the tip of the pushup.  These may be a type of vent mark...On champagne bottles the mamelon is large and protuberant."  Click mamelon base for a picture of a early 20th century wine bottle that shows a mamelon in the center of the base.  As noted, it is thought by some that the mamelon acted as an early form of air venting which facilitated the exit of the hot gases around the expanding bottle and allowed for a quicker and better "fit" of the hot glass to the sides of the mold (Boow 1991).  The line between a mamelon and an embossed dot in the middle of an indented base (a common bottle base feature) is vague, although a mamelon would be more protrusive than a typical embossed dot, though both are formed the same way (by molding); mamelons are uncommonly encountered on free-blown and dip-molded bottles (Jones 1986)." From.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is an update regarding my ongoing search for which "major brand" of soda pop was the first to use a crown closure. Both Hires and Moxie were contenders, but I have never been able to confirm this. And even thought the following needs more research before labeling it as the earliest, it is a pretty good indicator that "Vernor's Ginger Ale" of Detroit, Michigan opened their first bottling plant in 1896, and that their first bottles were "most likely" crowns. If/when I ever find one of their early bottle, I will be sure to post it here.

 SPB

 Vernor's ... 1896 ... bottling plant

 Here:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=HQdTa9ZXlVAC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=vernor's+bottling&source=bl&ots=BTmjeO3PU4&sig=KQddZXGCBtrhCSN42qM_EBcSneQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tY5OUO2jIseq2gWqoICACA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vernor's%20bottling&f=false


----------



## celerycola

Here's two more:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1895-RICE-BROS-HUTCHINSON-HUTCH-SODA-BOTTLE-/180971897817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a22c403d9

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Murdock-Freeman-Soda-Bottle-Portland-ME-1892-/120984951634?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2b43db52



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> I like those dated Hutches.
> 
> 
> 
> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Here's how I know it was for 5 more years...
Click to expand...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celery ~

 The Murdock & Freeman reminds me of these posted previously by Sam_MaineBottles ...

 [ Transition / Both 1895 / Blob and Crown ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I came across the following information recently and thought I would add it here for a future reference. I have only skimmed the surface on it so far but intend to research it in more detail sometime in the future. It involves the possibility that the Robert Portner Brewing Company of Alexandria, Virginia (1868-1916) might have been the first bottler to use a Crown closure. And even though they primarily made beer, apparently they also made soda pop including Mayfield's Celery-Cola and High Grade Ginger Ale. As you might recall, the earliest confirmed crown closure so far is that by Murdock & Freeman bottle from 1895. If it fact a 1894 Portner Crown closure soda bottle can be found and confirmed, it will establish a new date of being the earliest known.

 I have included several links for future reference


 http://alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/historic/info/archaeology/ARSiteReportHistoryPortnerBrewingCoAX196.pdf

 And on this link we find ...

 http://livability.com/danville/va/attractions/explore-crossing-dan-danville-ky

 "Robert Portner Brewing Company, which â€“ due to Prohibition â€“ became Celery Cola Bottling Company in 1931."

 ~ * ~

 As I said, I haven't fully researched all of this yet, nor do I know the full histories of Mayfield's Celery-Cola or High Grade Ginger Ale, but I do feel there is ample evidence here that might be worth looking into, especially if the result is in finding a 1894 Crown closure soda bottle.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

[ Mayfield's Celery-Cola Hutchinson bottle - Exact date unknown to me ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Another link for future reference ...

 http://www.chosi.org/bottles/portner/portner.htm

 Is there a Crown-top *soda bottle* hiding among the beer bottles? And if so, I wonder when it was made?


----------



## celerycola

As usual, Bob, you have taken things out of context and added your own meaning to create new "facts."

 Trust me as someone who knows a bit about Celery-Cola (and owns the two items you picture) â€“ you will not find facts to justify your hypothesis stated here.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I came across the following information recently and thought I would add it here for a future reference. I have only skimmed the surface on it so far but intend to research it in more detail sometime in the future. It involves the possibility that the Robert Portner Brewing Company of Alexandria, Virginia (1868-1916) might have been the first bottler to use a Crown closure. And even though they primarily made beer, apparently they also made soda pop including Mayfield's Celery-Cola and High Grade Ginger Ale. As you might recall, the earliest confirmed crown closure so far is that by Murdock & Freeman bottle from 1895. If it fact a 1894 Portner Crown closure soda bottle can be found and confirmed, it will establish a new date of being the earliest known.
> 
> I have included several links for future reference
> 
> 
> http://alexandriava.gov/uploadedFiles/historic/info/archaeology/ARSiteReportHistoryPortnerBrewingCoAX196.pdf
> 
> And on this link we find ...
> 
> http://livability.com/danville/va/attractions/explore-crossing-dan-danville-ky
> 
> "Robert Portner Brewing Company, which â€“ due to Prohibition â€“ became Celery Cola Bottling Company in 1931."
> 
> ~ * ~
> 
> As I said, I haven't fully researched all of this yet, nor do I know the full histories of Mayfield's Celery-Cola or High Grade Ginger Ale, but I do feel there is ample evidence here that might be worth looking into, especially if the result is in finding a 1894 Crown closure soda bottle.
> 
> Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Celery ~

 Okay then, please tell us *exactly* when Celery-Cola first appeared in a Crown closure bottle. And please provide verification and not just an opinion.

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## celerycola

Bob, I'm not going to get into a shootout with you. You have been a doggedly persistent researcher and a great asset to this forum. I myself have learned a lot from your efforts and the combined comments of many on this forum. I don't know why you have shifted so far down a path of conspiracy theories that would make Oliver Stone blush. I miss the Old SodaPopBob and hope to see him back here soon.

 Besides, I wouldn't want to spoil your fun in proving your theory.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Celery ~
> 
> Okay then, please tell us *exactly* when Celery-Cola first appeared in a Crown closure bottle. And please provide verification and not just an opinion.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Bob


----------



## epackage

From the Portner book....

Considering variations in size, color, labeling, lip finishes, closures, and manufacturers, there were easily 100 types of Portner bottles. They can be dated relatively easily; those that read "R. PORTNER" or "ROB. PORTNER" predate the firm's 1883 incorporation, but are unlikely to be older than the establishment of the breweryâ€™s first depots in 1875-1876. A bottle with the â€œTIVOLIâ€ trademark postdates 1877. *The company began using the bottle cap in 1894-1895 but may not have switched to it entirely until 1901-1903*, by which time the breweryâ€™s depots and bottling operations were modernized and there was a large enough supply of the new crown-finish bottles from Alexandria manufacturers. Most of the companyâ€™s extant bottles are crown finish and date to the twentieth century, as do dateable, extant â€œPortnerâ€ bottle openers. The "HYGEIA" mineral water bottles appear to date to the 1890s, suggesting that the company may have discontinued such sales shortly after the turn of the century.

 and this that Bob mentioned...

1894 The brewery begins using crown closures for bottling its â€œTivoli-Hofbrau,â€ coinciding with its first use of paper labels. Lightning and Hutter porcelain stoppers remain in use as well for several years.


----------



## Headhunter2

I recommend pistols at dawn for you two.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> Bob, I'm not going to get into a shootout with you. You have been a doggedly persistent researcher and a great asset to this forum. I myself have learned a lot from your efforts and the combined comments of many on this forum. I don't know why you have shifted so far down a path of conspiracy theories that would make Oliver Stone blush. I miss the Old SodaPopBob and hope to see him back here soon.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't want to spoil your fun in proving your theory.
> 
> 
> 
> celery ~
> 
> I guess its a case of certain members, including yourself, of often asking for specific *facts* when they themselves cannot produce them and then accuse me of posting misleading information. If facts were at our fingertips and easily found, then there would be no need for this forum where members come to seek help in determining various aspects of soda bottle collecting, including dates, values, etc. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your comments lead me to believe that you do not know when *Mayfield's* Celery-Cola first appeared in a Crown closure bottle. And if you don't know, then please just say so instead of putting the ball back in my court with unrelated topics. Surely you do not deny there is a connection of some kind between Robert Portner Brewing and Mayfield's Celery-Cola?
> 
> By the way, I wasn't the one who said ...
> 
> 1894 - "The brewing company begins using Crown closures."
> 
> Nor am I certain if that information is correct - but I trust the individual who stated it enough to look into as a possible *clue / lead* that might develop into more accurate information and confirmation. No "conspiracy theories" on my part, but rather just a everyday bottle collector doing some *research*.
> 
> Bob
Click to expand...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Jim / epackage ~

 Thanks. Now that's what I call doing some *research* !!!

 Bob


----------



## celerycola

Bob, I have tried to correct you when you are wrong. Yet you often choose to disregard the facts when they do not support your speculation. 

 I understand as well as anyone how difficult it is to research these old companies. No one is demanding that you produce facts, only that you don't blur the line between facts and speculation. Your comments below are a good start: "I wasn't the one who said" and "Nor am I certain if that information is correct." That helps to qualify your statements at the top of this page.

 Again, I will not get into a shootout with you. I think you're a good guy and I share your enthusiasm every time you find a new gem of information. I only hope that anyone who comes by this page in the future knows they shouldn't believe everything they read on the internet.


> celery ~
> 
> I guess its a case of certain members, including yourself, of often asking for specific *facts* when they themselves cannot produce them and then accuse me of posting misleading information. If facts were at our fingertips and easily found, then there would be no need for this forum where members come to seek help in determining various aspects of soda bottle collecting, including dates, values, etc. Please correct me if I am wrong, but your comments lead me to believe that you do not know when *Mayfield's* Celery-Cola first appeared in a Crown closure bottle. And if you don't know, then please just say so instead of putting the ball back in my court with unrelated topics. Surely you do not deny there is a connection of some kind between Robert Portner Brewing and Mayfield's Celery-Cola?
> 
> By the way, I wasn't the one who said ...
> 
> 1894 - "The brewing company begins using Crown closures."
> 
> Nor am I certain if that information is correct - but I trust the individual who stated it enough to look into as a possible *clue / lead* that might develop into more accurate information and confirmation. No "conspiracy theories" on my part, but rather just a everyday bottle collector doing some *research*.
> 
> Bob


----------



## zecritr

So from what you both posted,I read that there might be a bottle with a crown closure from that date of 1894





> The company began using the bottle cap in 1894-1895 but may not have switched to it entirely until 1901-1903,


 
 it may not have been in full use but looks like a limited use was or is a possibility.

 or am i reading that wrong?


----------



## OsiaBoyce

In this corner we have that 'West Coast Speculator' SOOOOOOOOOOOOODAPOPBOOOOOOOOOB

 In the opposing corner we have 'Wrote a Dozen Books Dennis' aka celerrrrrrrrrryyyyyyycola.

 Mean and nasty me will be sitting this one out..................................

 At the sound of the bell come out w/ your best references................


----------



## cyberdigger

Sorry guys, I had to remove a toxic link from this thread, it almost crashed my hard drive..!


----------



## celerycola

Do you mean an 1894 Celery-Cola crown bottle? An 1894 Portner Brewing crown bottle? Or any crown bottle from 1894? IMHO I would answer these questions in order: no, possibly, definitely. No on an 1894 Celery-Cola crown bottle (or any Celery-Cola bottle since that drink did not exist in 1894). Maybe on an 1894 Portner bottle since the information we have is a quote of a quote without knowing the original source.  And definitely on an 1894 crown bottle from somewhere since the crown was invented in 1892 and logically there are bottles out there. 

 If someone has contradictory or clarifying information please share it.


> ORIGINAL:  zecritr
> 
> So from what you both posted,I read that there might be a bottle with a crown closure from that date of 1894
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The company began using the bottle cap in 1894-1895 but may not have switched to it entirely until 1901-1903,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it may not have been in full use but looks like a limited use was or is a possibility.
> 
> or am i reading that wrong?
Click to expand...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Despite the controversy, I have already accomplished what I set out to do - which is to draw attention to a *possible* 1894 Crown-top bottle (soda and/or beer) that would predate the 1895 Murdock & Freeman bottle we already know about. Ideally, I would like to find a soda bottle as early as 1892-93-94, but so far there is no bona fide evidence of there ever being one that early. Thus, my reason for jumping on the Robert Portner wagon to see what might come up related to it. It doesn't hurt to take a closer look and, as I have said numerous times, especially if it results in finding a pre 1895 Crown bottle. And just because William Painter invented the Crown closure in 1892, that doesn't necessarily mean there are Crown bottles from that year. Logic may suggest there is, but it's facts the folks really want and not speculation. I have even contacted the "Bottle Research Group" (BRG) which is spearheaded by Bill Lockhart, Bill Lindsey, Carol Serr and others, and even they are not certain when the first Crown bottle was produced. In fact, at one point they asked me to keep them posted in the event I came up with anything substantial, which is exactly what I am attempting to do now ... but I need a little help like the valuable information that epackage recently provided us with.   

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'll say one thing about my recent research, it led to my finding this ...

 http://www.chosi.org/bottles/finley/finley.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the 1895 Murdock & Freeman bottle again ...


----------



## T D

Run, Forrest, run...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

T D ~

 Thanks for the pic. But let's not jump to conclusions just yet about finding a bunch of 1894 Crown-top bottles. The jury is still out and I'm sure someone will remind us they are not *soda* bottles but beer bottles. But that's okay with me because at this point a Crown is a Crown is a Crown. And if you really want to make me run for the record books, please come up with either a 1892 or 1893 Crown bottle - beer or soda - it don't matter which.

 Bob


----------



## T D

Not jumping to conclusions, just further illustrating how RIDICULOUS conclusions can be drawn.  YES this is a soda but I no more believe this is an 1894 bottle than I believe the moon is made of cheese.  There is an Oscar Fluker HUTCH dated 1894, and an extremely rare HUTCH dated 1901.  Why this 1894 crown?  YOU CANNOT DATE BOTTLES JUST BY THE DATE EMBOSSED IN THE NAME.  Just sayin...

 And by the way, why do you draw conclusions that I would not know if it was a soda bottle made 23 miles from me?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 I forgot to mention the following from the chosi.org website (which is information obtained from a *Finley family descendant*).

 "1883 ...  Advertisements for the Finley company at this time also list soda and mineral water among its products."

 So is it possible the 1894 bottle I posted a picture of is a soda bottle after all? I'm not sure, either.

 Bob


----------



## epackage

> ORIGINAL:  T D
> YOU CANNOT DATE BOTTLES JUST BY THE DATE EMBOSSED IN THE NAME.  Just sayin...


 *You can't???*


----------



## epackage

*Are you sure???*


----------



## T D

Hehe, touchÃ©.  The Southern guys had to reuse their junk over and over I guess[]


----------



## epackage

[]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL:  T D
> 
> And by the way, why do you draw conclusions that I would not know if it was a soda bottle made 23 miles from me?


 
 T D ~

 When I said "*someone will remind us they are not soda bottles but beer bottles*," I was *not* referring to your bottle but to the Finley bottles on the Chosi website.   

 Plus there's the following which is also from the website which is the same company name and address embossed on the 1894 bottle I posted a picture of.

 "F.H. Finley & Son, 1206 D Street NW (1892-1902)"

 ~ * ~

 With all do respect for those concerned, I believe some companies *did* emboss their bottles with the date they were produced!

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey Jim ~

 Touche indeed!

 Here's your reward for a most helpful contribution ... [sm=thumbup.gif]

 Bob


----------



## T D

E, as a local collector myself, those bottles would be a dream come true, and yes, I believe that you can date bottles this way many times, but not always.  You can't tell me a tiny bottler from Union Point, GA would have bottled both a hutch and a crown top in 1894.  I'm just making the point you can't judge a book by its cover.  I've said it in other posts, I always worry about the NEXT guy Googling "crown top" or whatever, and they get....?  The research is exhaustive and I really do enjoy it  and appreciate it, but like Dennis said, we need to make sure theories don't morph into fact.


----------



## T D

Oops, sorry, I thought you were talking about mine...


 Post 166


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And please don't think that I overlooked the following from the description associated with the 1894 Finley bottle I posted a picture of, because I didn't overlook it ...

 "*Rear on heel: AGW*"

  â—¾A.G.Wâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..in some cases, American Glass Works, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (1866-1905). This company, which was officially known as â€œAmerican Glass Works, Limitedâ€ after 1880, MAY have produced some glass marked â€œA.G.W.â€ during the time period of 1866-1880, although I am not aware of any definitive proof that they did. American Glass Works reportedly manufactured mostly window glass prior to 1880. After 1880, the mark was most frequently â€œA.G.W.L.â€, although various bottles that date after 1880 (such as certain hutchinson sodas, and aqua coffin or â€œshooflyâ€ flasks) do carry â€œA.G.W.â€(no L) so I tend to believe that both mark variants were used, at times, during the 1880-1905 period. (See next two entries).

 â—¾A.G.Wâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..American Glass Works, Richmond, Virginia (1908-1925) and Paden City, West Virginia (1918-c.1935). Bottles (especially crown-closure soda bottles) of the teens and 1920s from the VA and surrounding area with â€œA.G.W.â€ marked on the base are virtually certain to be products of this company (not to be confused with the earlier American Glass Works of Pittsburgh, an unrelated company). Machine-made bottles date after 1916 (Toulouse 1971:23). The Richmond plant burned in 1925 and was not rebuilt. This company also reportedly used an â€œA in a circleâ€ mark on some bottles. In any case, that mark was primarily used by the Armstrong Cork Company from 1938 to 1969.

 â—¾A.G.W.Lâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦American Glass Works, Limited, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (1880-1905). Advertisements exist which show this company produced a large line of Hutchinson type soda bottles, as well as many other bottles including beers and mineral waters. The mark â€œA.G.W.L.â€ which appears on the heel of many Hutchinson's can bedefinitely attributed to this company. Please see the above two entries on â€œA.G.W.â€


----------



## cyberdigger

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> T D ~
> 
> Thanks for the pic. But let's not jump to conclusions just yet about finding a bunch of 1894 Crown-top bottles. The jury is still out and I'm sure someone will remind us they are not *soda* bottles but beer bottles. But that's okay with me because at this point a Crown is a Crown is a Crown. And if you really want to make me run for the record books, please come up with either a 1892 or 1893 Crown bottle - beer or soda - it don't matter which.
> 
> Bob


 
 Beers and sodas were identical during the 1890-1910 period.. except hutches, they were rarely used for beer.


----------



## epackage

> ORIGINAL:  T D
> 
> E, as a local collector myself, those bottles would be a dream come true, and yes, I believe that you can date bottles this way many times, but not always.  You can't tell me a tiny bottler from Union Point, GA would have bottled both a hutch and a crown top in 1894.  I'm just making the point you can't judge a book by its cover.  I've said it in other posts, I always worry about the NEXT guy Googling "crown top" or whatever, and they get....?  The research is exhaustive and I really do enjoy it  and appreciate it, but like Dennis said, we need to make sure theories don't morph into fact.


 I hear ya, I have this bottler with a 1900 crown and a 1905 hutch, things can sure be tough to figure out...


----------



## cyberdigger

..yeah tough to figure out resonates with me right now.. lol..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Murdock & Freeman bottles and whether or not they dated them, here's one currently on eBay dated *1892*, which is not a Crown but a Blob ...

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Murdock-Freeman-Bottle-Aqua-Portland-Maine-1892-Big-K-on-Bottom-/121120038341?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c33511dc5


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

More Murdock & Freeman ~ Left to right ... 1904 ~ 1903 ~ 1902


----------



## UncleBruce

*Let me put this issue to rest.  Looking at this bottle HARTMANN & FEHRENBACH it is plainly seen the that the crudity of the bulbous applied crown top indicates a very early hand tooled process.  Beneath the applied ring (crown) lip it looks like a blob top.  I have an example of this bottle that is even more blobby, but being lazy did not take the time to find it in my stock pile.  This company was in existence 1865-1920.  So the timing is right.  Also due to the relatively large number of bottles available from this brewery it was producing and bottling a lot of beer from early on.  Even the blob tops are somewhat plentiful.  I am guessing they were an early innovator who went to the crown top style early on.  WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!*  [8|]  [sm=thumbup1.gif]

 PS:  Too bad it is not a soda bottle then it would be a slam dunk on this topic!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

UB ~

 Thanks for stopping by and sharing. Good points! Exactly what do you mean by "early on?" I'm not sure if you mean early on "during the first few years of distribution = 1892-94" or early on "during the infancy of the patent = which some might consider to be anytime between 1892 and 1905" 

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## UncleBruce

I am suggesting the Hartmann bottle was produced in the (early) middle 1890's.  William Painter the crown inventor was from Maryland so the proximity to Delaware works well too.  This is all just conjecture on my part as I only have observations of the crown top bottles I own to rely on.  The latter crowns are more uniform and less bulbous in their appearance.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL:  T D
> 
> YES this is a soda but I no more believe this is an 1894 bottle than I believe the moon is made of cheese.


 
 T D

 If you are sticking to your guns and continue to believe what you said above, I will accept and honor that. But, on the other hand, if you ever change your mind, it might interest you to know that its highly possible your 1894 Oscar Fluker bottle is the earliest Crown closure soda bottle currently known and one for the *record books*.

 If congratulations are in order, you have mine wholeheartedly. 

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 T D

 As to your comment/question ...

 "*There is an Oscar Fluker HUTCH dated 1894, and an extremely rare HUTCH dated 1901. Why this 1894 crown?*"

 The answer could be as simple as the possibility that one or more of the grocers/stores that Fluker distributed to (providing he was a distributor) preferred Hutch's over Crown's. I have seen accounts claiming Hutch's were being produced and distributed as late as 1915 - 1920, which seems totally weird considering that almost everyone had switched to Crown's by that time. 

 Bob


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Another thing I'm glad I don't have to worry about.

 Pait,paint,paint,paint.......................................


----------



## T D

> T D
> 
> If you are sticking to your guns and continue to believe what you said above, I will accept and honor that. But, on the other hand, if you ever change your mind, it might interest you to know that its highly possible your 1894 Oscar Fluker bottle is the earliest Crown closure soda bottle currently known and one for the record books.
> 
> If congratulations are in order, you have mine wholeheartedly.
> 
> Bob


 


 You are going WAY OFF task here, because you so very much WANT an earlier crown top bottle.  The part of the story that you don't know is, this bottle was dug in a dump that is almost exclusively crown top sodas.  Out of the thousands of bottles dug in this dump, there was ONE hutch found (believe it or not, it was a Fluker hutch).  Most are straight sided bottles with part of the dump being 1915 Cokes.  We can date this dump to as early as 1900, but there has been virtually NOTHING any earlier than crown tops- no hutches, no blobs, no medicines that appear to be any older, nothing.  We can date the Cokes and the Chero Colas from the written record in the newspaper and these Flukers (several including shards) were right in with the other straight side Cokes and bottling works bottles.  It is my opinion, and I feel sure of the others that have dug there, that there are mostly post 1910 bottles with very few 1900- 1910 bottles in this dump.  Therefore, I feel like the hutch was the first Fluker bottle put out near 1894 (or could it be 1894 was when the company started?  Not even necessarily the "drink part of the business") and when crown tops became more available, the owners either liked the fact that his company and birth date was on the bottle or maybe even they used the same slug mold to save money.  I doubt a tiny town like Union Point used two different bottles because of some customer preference.

 Sure fire fact:  Date a bottle from where it was found in the dump.


----------



## cyberdigger

Don't forget about them late throws TD..


----------



## T D

Yes, I have seen some late throws, but there have been way too may hours spent reading this dump.  That hutch may have been a late throw, but not the crowns.  Them puppies were all thrown out together.  

 And there is Rick and all the REAL diggers sitting up there saying, "CROWN TOPS?  CROWN TOPS?  Who gives a flyin' rat'sazz about CROWN TOPS![sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]


----------



## cyberdigger

Don't worry about the REAL diggers, they're gonna pay for it through the thing when they realize tooled crowns and tooled blobs came from the same mold lots of times.. they'll be goin back lookin at a brand new McMansion where their dump used to be, think of all what was left in there..


----------



## celerycola

> ORIGINAL:  T D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T D
> 
> If you are sticking to your guns and continue to believe what you said above, I will accept and honor that. But, on the other hand, if you ever change your mind, it might interest you to know that its highly possible your 1894 Oscar Fluker bottle is the earliest Crown closure soda bottle currently known and one for the record books.
> 
> If congratulations are in order, you have mine wholeheartedly.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are going WAY OFF task here, because you so very much WANT an earlier crown top bottle.  The part of the story that you don't know is, this bottle was dug in a dump that is almost exclusively crown top sodas.  Out of the thousands of bottles dug in this dump, there was ONE hutch found (believe it or not, it was a Fluker hutch).  Most are straight sided bottles with part of the dump being 1915 Cokes.  We can date this dump to as early as 1900, but there has been virtually NOTHING any earlier than crown tops- no hutches, no blobs, no medicines that appear to be any older, nothing.  We can date the Cokes and the Chero Colas from the written record in the newspaper and these Flukers (several including shards) were right in with the other straight side Cokes and bottling works bottles.  It is my opinion, and I feel sure of the others that have dug there, that there are mostly post 1910 bottles with very few 1900- 1910 bottles in this dump.  Therefore, I feel like the hutch was the first Fluker bottle put out near 1894 (or could it be 1894 was when the company started?  Not even necessarily the "drink part of the business") and when crown tops became more available, the owners either liked the fact that his company and birth date was on the bottle or maybe even they used the same slug mold to save money.  I doubt a tiny town like Union Point used two different bottles because of some customer preference.
> 
> Sure fire fact:  Date a bottle from where it was found in the dump.
Click to expand...

 +1


----------



## hemihampton

Wouldn't the hutch be a early throw instead of late throw?


----------



## T D

Since my day started at 4 this morning, at the point I'm not sure anymore...


----------



## cyberdigger

Late throw = it was old when it got tossed in the trash.


----------



## hemihampton

I thought maybe it was tossed there first, before the rest of the newer trash.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*1896*

 "*I bottle the best that's made on this globe and I manufacture as pure soft drinks of all kinds as can be bought.*"

 http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DC-OLD-NEWS/2004-05/1084830020


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I contacted Bill Lockhart (of the Bottle Research Group / B.R.G.) regarding the 1894 "F.H. Finley & Son" bottle and exchanged several emails with him. Among other things, Bill said more research will likely have to be done before a full confirmation can be established on the date. However, in his last reply to me, Bill wrote ...

*Hi Bob,

 I am pretty sure that 1894 IS a date of manufacture.

 As you mentioned, it certainly fits with the time period for that address.
 I also can't think of another reason to use that date.

 Bill*


----------



## web44ca

Hi Bob,
This applied crown soda bottle is embossed on the bottom " Z C " am wondering if it stands for Zanesville City Glass Works?
The c.u. of the neck shows the gripping tool scars - bottom right corner


----------



## SODABOB

web44ca

Thanks for the pic. Actually, I'm thinking the bottle is of European origin because of the applied finish (lip) and especially because of the "slop over" glass below the base of the lip. I'll look around and see if I can find anything to explain the Z C


----------



## bottle-bud

Wow! Quite a story, I am fairly new to the forum and this is the first I have seen of this thread. I read all 20 pages and it was very interesting. Now I will look at my early crowns in a new fashion, that is looking for suction rings, vent or breather holes, variations in lip design etc. I have that same Ackerman bottle that sodabob has plus another variation. I think I'll do my next write up or thread for the Ackerman Soda Water Co.


----------



## hemihampton

I'm bumping this up to the top for all the newbies that never read it.


----------



## hemihampton

My Hires 1897 Ad.



 1897 Hires Crowntop Ad. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, hemi

Wow!  Has it really been ten years - how time flies - this was one of my very first post.  I see it currently has approximately 13,000 views. As far as I know, the 1894 F.H. Finley & Son is still the earliest known Crown.  Maybe a newbie or someone will come up with an earlier example.  I'm still a little confused about the Oscar Fluker bottles mentioned earlier - perhaps something has developed to clarify them.  Its been a long time since I looked for anything to add to this discussion, but if I do find something I will be back and share it.

Bob

This article that Bill Lockhart and I published Online about a year ago might also be of interest to some newbies ...



			https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/ACLArticle2019.pdf


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.  

In case I didn't post it earlier, this link is where I found the 1894  F. H. Finley & Son crown bottle - which also includes a brief history as well as pics of their other bottles ...

http://www.chosi.org/bottles/finley/finley.htm


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of F.H. Finley & Son bottles, I just bought this one on eBay.  I'm not sure what to make of the 1894-1902 that's embossed on it, but it might have something to do with the address - although it is not the address itself, but year dates.  Similar bottles are shown on the link I posted.  

Check it out ...









						Blown Soda Bottle F H Finley & Son Mass Ave NE Washington DC 1894-1902 Aqua Nice  | eBay
					

For sale here is a scarce, early, antique, blown in mold, aqua, heavily embossed, crown top soda bottle from Washington, DC. AVE. N.E. / WASHINGTON, D.C. / THIS BOTTLE / NOT TO BE SOLD all on the front.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## treeguyfred

Wow.....! I just got done, I think catching up on ten years of info and debate on this thread.... I'm going to try to digest and ruminate and seek out my bottles with early crowns. I do have (close at hand) an E&J Burke Guiness Extra Stout with a gloppy hand applied crown top but... again we know that UK bottles tended to be made in old fashioned methods much later than new world manufacturing.
Intriguing thread,
~Fred


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.  

I just checked the eBay link and it shows the bottle sold for $19.99 - which is incorrect because I made them an offer of $10.10, which they accepted.  I never noticed before, but I guess eBay doesn't show offered prices. The reason I offered $10.10 was so the total, including $14.90 for shipping, would come to $25.00.  Of course, I forgot taxes, so the final-final total was $25.78.  I don't sell on eBay, so I'm not sure how everything works, but I was surprised when they accepted my offer exactly ONE minute after I made the offer.  They were either Online at that very moment, or else there is some type of automatic program that involves offers. ???


----------



## SODABOB

treeguyfred

Thanks for the information.  If you haven't already seen it, this link will take you directly to the "Finishes & Closures" section of the sha.org website.  Just scroll down to the "Crown" section - which also has some information about European bottles.  I am a current member of the Bottle Research Group (BRG) that contributes to the website on a regular basis.  If you click your way to the ACL section in the Bottle Glossary, you will find a link to the ACL article I mentioned earlier.  Bill Lockhart and I just finished an interesting soda bottle related article that will appear in the ACL section sometime this summer.  I will share a link to it once its ready for viewing. 

https://sha.org/bottle/finishstyles2.htm


----------



## SODABOB

This is the heel mark on the Finley bottle I bought - along with the maker / dates from the sha.org website


----------



## Hamco

Great information here sodapopbob! very interesting.


----------



## hemihampton

In the Auction Description, Seller said likely dates to around 1905. I've never considered dates on some bottles or Cans as totally accurate, They didn't change the date on mold every year & ran that date for years, just like they do with coins & currency, ect., ect.,  LEON.


----------



## PlaneDiggerCam

Here is an interesting one for ya guys....


----------



## hemihampton

Mine from 1898.


----------



## RelicRaker

hemihampton said:


> My Hires 1897 Ad.View attachment 208288



Just pulled a tall early crowntop Hires. Base embossed, or I'd never have known what it was.


----------



## hemihampton

Nice, could be as old as 1897 possibly. LEON.


----------



## ESmith

F. H. Finley also apparently produced Sarsaparilla along with the Sodas and Mineral Waters. Check out this link https://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoodman/albums and click on Scorecards-1800s. Lots of interesting ads.


----------



## UncleBruce

I'd say this one is pretty early for a crown.


----------



## CanadianBottles

UncleBruce said:


> I'd say this one is pretty early for a crown.


That's an interesting one, what does the rest of the bottle look like?  Is it from the US?


----------



## UncleBruce

CanadianBottles said:


> That's an interesting one, what does the rest of the bottle look like?  Is it from the US?


I've attached another photo of the bottle for your reference.  It is a WISCONSIN bottle.


----------



## PlaneDiggerCam

UncleBruce said:


> I've attached another photo of the bottle for your reference.  It is a WISCONSIN bottle.


That one is certainly unique in the way that the crown looks! Mug base and amber too! Absolutly killer!


----------



## BrentC

Here are two early ones that I have. The first one has "The non corkable patent bottle" embossed with the name of the company. It has 4 pieces of glass that are inside the lip of the bottle.

The second one has a seam that sticks out about 1/16" and then disappears.


----------



## CanadianBottles

Wow that non-corkable patent bottle is really cool!  Definitely never seen one of those before.  I guess the idea with the pour pieces of glass inside the neck were to prevent people from re-using it with corks?  Seems like a bit of an odd thing to be concerned about preventing.  I guess maybe it would have worked to prevent people from stealing your bottles in the earliest days of crown caps before they became ubiquitous.


----------



## BrentC

It is the only one I have ever seen like that too. It is a bonus that it if from the area where I grew up.


----------



## SODABOB

UncleBruce

Thanks for sharing your Willms Bros. bottle. The unusual crown finish is interesting - but a little confusing as well. The reason I say confusing is because I did some research on the brothers and the earliest date I can find for them as bottlers is 1910-11.

For starters is the attached snippet from a book titled "South Milwaukee, Then To Now"  by Gertrude Moe Endthoff.  I'm not sure when the book was originally published, but it may have been in 1955 and then republished in 1976. Based on some additional research I did, it appears the information in her book is accurate.  If it is accurate, then you will understand my confusion related to your Willms Bros. bottle.

I also did some research on George Zeiger - who apparently sold his bottling works to the Willms brothers in 1910 or 1911. Notice the similarity of his bottles with the Willms bottles. Here's a brief chronology I came up with for George Zeiger ...

Born in 1857 (Death year unknown)

1900 U.S. Census Milwaukee - Mfg. Soda Water - 42 years old
1910 U.S. Census Milwaukee - Soda Water Maker - 52 years old
1920 U.S. Census Milwaukee - No occupation / Retired? - 62 years old

And here's a chronology I came up with for the Willms brothers from U.S. census records and early Milwaukee directories ...

The brothers were Jacob Willms and John Willms Jr
Their father was John Willms Sr

Jacob -    Born 1879 - Died 1963
John Jr -  Born 1887 - Died 1962

1900 U.S. Census
John Sr - Occupation Farmer
John Jr - Occupation Laborer - 21 years old
Jacob  -  Still in school - 13 years old

(No records found between 1901 and 1910 - but still searching)

1911 Milwaukee City Directory - Willms Bros Bottlers

1917-18 WWI Draft Registration
Jacob and John both listed a Soda Water Mfg.

1920 Milwaukee U.S. Census - Jacob and John - Soda Water Mfg.

1930 Milwaukee U.S. Census - Jacob - Owner of Implement Store (No record for John)

1940 Milwaukee U.S. Census - Jacob - Tavern Owner (No record for John)

( I downloaded all of the above and can post them if necessary )

Reminders ...

1.  The Crown finish was patented by William Painter in 1892
2.  In 1892, Jacob Willms was 13 years old, and John Willms Jr was 5 years old

What's really confusing are the bottles themselves. Notice that one of their bottles has a 'Blob" finish. So called blob bottles generally range between about 1850 and 1880, and were typically replaced when the Hutchinson bottles became popular. I can't explain the Willms brothers using blob bottles because they seem way too early. In fact, your bottle appears to have a combination blob and crown. The brothers also used Hutchinson bottles. However, I don't know which bottle they used first, blobs or Hutch's. Last but not least is their typical Crown bottle - which I don't know the date of either.

More research is required to try and make sense of all this, but hopefully some of what I have provided will lead to other finds and a better understanding of what actually took place. Based on what I have found so far, it appears to me that your particular bottle is early 1900s - and possibly as late as 1910-11 - which is not what I consider to be a super early Crown - although I am keeping an open mind as to when your bottle was actually made and used.


----------



## SODABOB

And here is the earliest confirmed date I can find for Willms Bros. bottling - which is from a 1911 Milwaukee city directory ...


----------



## UncleBruce

Great post SODABOB!


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, Bruce

As you probably know, some bottlers used Hutchinson bottles well into the 1920s. So it isn't surprising that the Willms brothers were possibly one of those bottlers.  But what is surprising are their blob-top bottles. Its hard to imagine they used that type of bottle in the 1910s and 1920s - although I suppose its possible. By the way, does the finish (lip) on your Willms bottle appear to have been applied after it was originally made? And is it hand-blown or machine made? 

Check this one out - which is embossed with "Weiss Beer" and has what appears to be a "groove" between the neck and finish.  I found two of these, but don't have an explanation for either of them.


----------



## shotdwn

From the looks of weiss beer bottle picture with a groove like that under the top you would think the whole top of the bottle would snap off when you were trying to remove the cap.


----------



## SODABOB

BrentC

Thanks for sharing your "Non Corkable" bottle.  I'm still researching it, but haven't found anything specific yet.  I have only been able to find one other example of it. I suspect they are extremely rare.  In David Graci's book "Soda and Beer Bottle Closures 1850-1910" the maker is listed as "Unknown."  If we can find a patent for it, that will give us some dates to work with, as well as some other helpful information.  Do you happen to know if it is hand-blown or machine made?


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn

I agree - weird - I'm still looking for others like it, and hopefully some answers as to when it was made and why it has a groove.  The only explanation I can think of at the moment is that the groove was for a wire attached to a cork.  ???


----------



## SODABOB

BrentC

According to this news article, the Sterilized Beer Bottling Co. (Carbondale, Pa.) was established in 1904. Which suggest that your "Non Corkable" bottle was made in 1904 or later.  I'm also attaching an article from 1905 that provides some names for future research.  They also used a Hutch bottle - although those were typically used for soda and not beer.  Your bottle appears to be hand-blown - which was still being done in 1904-05


----------



## BrentC

SODABOB said:


> BrentC
> 
> According to this news article, the Sterilized Beer Bottling Co. (Carbondale, Pa.) was established in 1904. Which suggest that your "Non Corkable" bottle was made in 1904 or later.  I'm also attaching an article from 1905 that provides some names for future research.  They also used a Hutch bottle - although those were typically used for soda and not beer.  Your bottle appears to be hand-blown - which was still being done in 1904-05
> 
> View attachment 212625
> 
> View attachment 212626
> 
> View attachment 212627


 
Thank you for the information. This gives me a great starting point for further research.

Brent


----------



## SODABOB

Brent

I did a little research on your Martin Gerchman bottle from Forest City, Pennsylvania, and the earliest date I can find for the company is *1907*.  The information I found is a little confusing, but the company apparently had some connection with the Krantz Brewery and the Zeller Bottling Works - both of which were located in the Forest City area.  If I find anything more specific, I will let you know.


----------



## SODABOB

Here's another one of those weird Willms Bros. bottles - but still no explanation about the groove.  Unlike the bottle I posted earlier that was straight-sided, this one has a hex shaped base. It was described as being ABM (Automatic Bottling Machine) and having an "elongated" Crown


----------



## CanadianBottles

SODABOB said:


> Thanks, Bruce
> 
> As you probably know, some bottlers used Hutchinson bottles well into the 1920s. So it isn't surprising that the Willms brothers were possibly one of those bottlers.  But what is surprising are their blob-top bottles. Its hard to imagine they used that type of bottle in the 1910s and 1920s - although I suppose its possible. By the way, does the finish (lip) on your Willms bottle appear to have been applied after it was originally made? And is it hand-blown or machine made?



Bob, I think the blob top bottles you're referring to as becoming obsolete around 1880 are the ones that were designed to take a cork.  The ones you're showing I'm pretty certain were lightning stopper bottles, and those were used much more recently, and only invented in the mid 1870s.  These wire stoppers never really stopped being used, so it would make sense to me to see blob top bottles in the early 20th century.  Apparently Henry Putnam's company, one of the major US suppliers of lightning stoppers, continued selling them until the early 1920s https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/HenryPutnam.pdf
Here's a similar bottle with a lightning stopper: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/full-old-el-husting-milwaukee-wi-blob-weiss-beer


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Here's another one of those weird Willms Bros. bottles - but still no explanation about the groove.  Unlike the bottle I posted earlier that was straight-sided, this one has a hex shaped base. It was described as being ABM (Automatic Bottling Machine) and having an "elongated" Crown
> 
> View attachment 212716




Could the lighting be reflecting of the top neck area like you see it reflecting off the lower mug base part to give it that grooved look?


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Thanks, Bruce
> 
> As you probably know, some bottlers used Hutchinson bottles well into the 1920s. So it isn't surprising that the Willms brothers were possibly one of those bottlers.  But what is surprising are their blob-top bottles. Its hard to imagine they used that type of bottle in the 1910s and 1920s - although I suppose its possible. By the way, does the finish (lip) on your Willms bottle appear to have been applied after it was originally made? And is it hand-blown or machine made?
> 
> Check this one out - which is embossed with "Weiss Beer" and has what appears to be a "groove" between the neck and finish.  I found two of these, but don't have an explanation for either of them.
> 
> View attachment 212612


As you probably know, some bottlers used Hutchinson bottles well into the 1920s. 



BOB, Do you have any Documentation that Hutchinson Bottles were still being used well into the 1920's? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

CanadianBottles said:


> Bob, I think the blob top bottles you're referring to as becoming obsolete around 1880 are the ones that were designed to take a cork.  The ones you're showing I'm pretty certain were lightning stopper bottles, and those were used much more recently, and only invented in the mid 1870s.  These wire stoppers never really stopped being used, so it would make sense to me to see blob top bottles in the early 20th century.  Apparently Henry Putnam's company, one of the major US suppliers of lightning stoppers, continued selling them until the early 1920s https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/HenryPutnam.pdf
> Here's a similar bottle with a lightning stopper: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/full-old-el-husting-milwaukee-wi-blob-weiss-beer




CB

Thanks - I understand what you are saying and agree for the most part. What I find really confusing is what appears to be a combination Crown/Blob finish on the Willms Bros. bottles - not to mention the groove on TWO different bottles - which is not a optical illusion.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> As you probably know, some bottlers used Hutchinson bottles well into the 1920s.
> 
> 
> 
> BOB, Do you have any Documentation that Hutchinson Bottles were still being used well into the 1920's? LEON.




hemi

Read what it says at the bottom of this page - which can be found on this link ...



			Industry History Hutchinson Era Demise
		


As far as I know, the HutchBook people know their stuff. If they say as much, that's good enough for me. However, I would like to see an actual Hutch bottle that is confirmed as being from the 1920s. I might contact them and see what they have to say.


----------



## hemihampton

I just sent Ron 2 new Hutch Pics earlier today. I'll ask him about the 1920 comment? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Sounds good - thanks

I forgot I had this one in my files - considered the latest known example - Puerto Rico - 1929 - Owens Illinois


----------



## hemihampton

I got a a black & white pic from 1917 showing them filling Hutch's at a bottling works, this was in a small upper penninsula Town in Michigan. Up there  in small towns in sticksville they are always behind the Big Cities. No insult to Yuppers. If they did make Hutch's into the 1920's I don't think it would be very common & probably a rare occasion? I'd be less surprised to see a 1910 blob top & more surprised to see 1920's Hutch.


----------



## hemihampton

Looking through my 1903-04 Illinois Glass Co. Catalog I see they show/offer about 50 different Beer Bottles they sell. Out of those 50 bottles, I see 49 of them are blob tops & they only offer 1 crown top. I see they do offer a few more crown tops for Soda Bottles.


----------



## CanadianBottles

SODABOB said:


> CB
> 
> Thanks - I understand what you are saying and agree for the most part. What I find really confusing is what appears to be a combination Crown/Blob finish on the Willms Bros. bottles - not to mention the groove on TWO different bottles - which is not a optical illusion.


Yeah the crown/blob finish is odd.  I have two theories for that - one is that they used a lightning stopper but wanted the option to switch over to crown tops at a later date.  The second theory is that people had come to associate that exact form of bottle with Weiss beer, and they wanted to keep it looking as similar as possible when switching closures.  This is something you see with those Irish round-bottom ginger ale bottles, which continued having quite rounded bases even after they were made to take crown caps and were able to stand on their own.  Since lightning stoppers worked on standard crown top bottles, I'm leaning towards the second theory.

As for the groove, I have no clue what that would be about.


----------



## UncleBruce

CanadianBottles said:


> Yeah the crown/blob finish is odd.  I have two theories for that - one is that they used a lightning stopper but wanted the option to switch over to crown tops at a later date.  The second theory is that people had come to associate that exact form of bottle with Weiss beer, and they wanted to keep it looking as similar as possible when switching closures.  This is something you see with those Irish round-bottom ginger ale bottles, which continued having quite rounded bases even after they were made to take crown caps and were able to stand on their own.  Since lightning stoppers worked on standard crown top bottles, I'm leaning towards the second theory.


I do like your theories CanadianBottles.
I cannot prove this, but I know that it took special tools for the glass company to make a CROWN TOP lip.  The key to the lip finish was it *HAD TO BE* precise for the cap to fit correctly. In the early day of the CROWN TOP these tools may not have been readily available so the glass company *made due*. I don't have a photo of it, but I have had beers with what looked like a cork top blob with the crown lip on the top similar to the Willms beer. I know for sure there are HARTMANN & FEHRENBACH bottles floating around that have this oddity.


----------



## SODABOB

I have been thinking along the same lines in that certain beer bottles, especially Weiss beer bottles, might be the missing link that explains the unusual crown/blob finishes.  Its highly possible they were specifically designed to accommodate a variety of different closures. Of particular interest are some of the John Graf beer bottles. Its ironic that Graf's main brewery was located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin - which is also where the Willms Bros. were located.  I just this morning began my study of Graf bottles, and plan to continue my search and see what else I can find.  I am particularly interested in trying to figure out how to date them. 

I do not know when any of these bottles were made - John Graf was in operation between the 1870s to the 1960s. Notice what appears to be a fairly substantial "overhang" that might have been intended for a wire attachment.


----------



## SODABOB

I realize this is not a Crown/Blob bottle, but because I have seen several Graf bottles with this identical closure, I suspect it might have been their standard closure at some point.  Not to mention that it could just as easily have been used for the Graf Crown/Blob bottles I posted earlier.

I have David Graci's bottle closure book - The best match for this particular closure was patented by ...

Charles de Quillfeldt - Patent # 158,46 - January 5, 1875

( I acknowledge that the closure on this Graf bottle might not be a Quillfeldt closure )

This link is to the 1875 Quillfeldt patent



			https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/3a/77/7f/2f5d3c5e82ee95/US158406.pdf


----------



## SODABOB

And there is this from here ...






						North American Soda & Beer Bottles - Beer Closures
					

This site offers a history of North American antique soda and beer bottles.  Within you will be able to date your old soda and beer bottles based on shape, color, base style, lips, and closures.




					www.sodasandbeers.com


----------



## SODABOB

This Graf bottle is currently on eBay and has one of the closures I have been discussing.  However, I'm still not sure if this particular type of closure was standard for the John Graf Brewing Co. Now all I need is to find a similar closure on one of his or the Willms Bros. Crown/Blob bottles.   ???









						Vintage John Graf 8 Sided Beer Bottle Dark Amber Swing Top Cap  | eBay
					

John Graf collectible bottle. Dark amber 8 sided with bale wire closure swing top cap. Excellent condition with only a very small chip. Near perfect. See photos.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## shotdwn

SODABOB. If you go over to Mr. Bottle website and look at the crown top soda bottles from Milwaukee there are two Graf picnic soda bottles that look like the blob/crown top that have a lightning stopper that are porcelain.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, from talking to Ron I came away with this info, Puerto Rico & Mexico purchased old used Hutchinson equipment in the 1920's from the USA because by the 1920's most USA Bottlers have already made the switch to Crown Tops. He also said after WW1 the use of Hutchinson in USA was uncommon although a few still did use them. SO, I guess you could say they still seen widespread use in Puerto Rico & Mexico in 1920's but not widespread use in USA. That's kinda like saying the Codd bottle is still widely used, Maybe in India & Japan but I don't think they made a Codd for widespread use in USA for about 100 years. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn said:


> SODABOB. If you go over to Mr. Bottle website and look at the crown top soda bottles from Milwaukee there are two Graf picnic soda bottles that look like the blob/crown top that have a lightning stopper that are porcelain.




shotdwn

Thanks - I am familiar with the Mr. Bottles website and found some of the bottles there that I posted earlier. Here's the link - type a brand name in the search box and it will pull up the corresponding matches

http://www.mrbottles.com/

Attached is the Graf (Picnic) bottle that I believe is the one you were referring to.  I'm also attaching the finish on UncleBruce's Willms Bros. bottle to compare it with the Graf beer and Graf soda bottle finishes. Although the three finishes might not be 100% identical, they are similar enough for further discussion.

I suppose the question that needs asking is ...

How many of us think these three finishes are the so called Blob/Crown finish?

Graf (Picnic) Soda Bottle





UncleBruce Willms Bros.





Graf Beer





Graf Soda


----------



## SODABOB

I wonder of these had anything to do with the so called Blob/Crown finish?

*Kork N Seal*

This closure was primarily intended for after-market use to seal a variety of small-mouth finishes such as those on beer, soda, catchup, etc. bottles - to keep the bottle sealed whenever the contents were not immediately consumed. As far as I know, they were not applied to bottles where the various products originated.  I have seen numerous examples of these caps with the brand names printed on them.      

Patent Link



			https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/b3/d4/d1/08f871d5192b33/US822567.pdf
		


Patent Illustration - G. A. Williams - 1905-1106





1911 Ad - Notice where it says "Combining Crown Cork / Lightning Stopper"


















*Goldy Finish / Cap*

Notice the Goldy finish just below the Crown finish on this page from a 1920 Illinois Glass Company catalog.  It also depicts the Kork N Seal cap - that apparently had it's own finish - but cannot be seen. The Goldy finish is somewhat similar to the so called Blob/Crown finish.  By the way, there are no known examples of a Goldy cap.  If you have or find one, please share it here and you could be the first.

Hmmm ... I also wonder what the Crown and Brandy finish is all about?






This is the only illustration of a Goldy cap/closure that I have been able to find.  But, with no known examples, I don't know if they were ever actually used.


----------



## shotdwn

Here is my question on Kork-N-Seal cap as they would apply to the use on the blob/crown bottle top. If the blob/crown top used a lightning type bottle seal, either porcelain or rubber, wouldn't you just reseal the bottle with the original stopper? In the event it used a totally different original seal then the Kork-N-Seal could be a possibility but I believe the Kork-N-Seal was mainly an after market product.


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn

Thanks a lot - great observation!

I totally agree that the Kork-N-Seal caps were intended to be used after the bottle was opened and were not applied at bottling plants and/or breweries. My primary reason for posting them was to present them as a possible explanation as to why some bottles, such as the Willms and Graf bottles, have what appear to be dual-purpose finishes (Blob/Crown).  Maybe the Blob/Crown bottles originally had a Cork/Wire closure, but were designed to also accommodate a Kork-N-Seal type of cap after they were opened. However, no matter how we slice it, without knowing exactly when certain bottles were made, all we can do is speculate about the dates. If we can determine some of those dates, it might solve the mystery. By the way, I do a LOT of speculating - which sometimes leads to other clues and/or answers, and sometimes it doesn't. 

For example:  Check out these two ads for Otto Huber beer.  The first one was published in March of 1898 and only depicts blob bottles. The second one was published in December of 1898 and depicts blob AND crown bottles.  Even though I'm speculating, I'll bet that 1898 was when Otto Huber switched from blobs to crowns. By the way, I'm currently researching Huber beer bottles to see what else I can find. If nothing else, there should be some fairly early Crowns that were used by them.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

I'm also wondering when these were made and used - and whether they were for blob or crown bottles? Or, maybe for both?  I have seen quite a few of them - none of which had a wire attached to it. The upper part is porcelain.


----------



## SODABOB

I also found this today.  Notice what it says about "England" - which supposedly is where the Crown finish originated before William Painter patented his cap in 1892

*St. Louis Post Dispatch - December 13, 1894*


----------



## SODABOB

*Update ...*

As far as I know, this F.H. Finley & Son bottle with 1894 embossed on it is still the earliest known Crown bottle.  But, what I don't know is whether it is a soda bottle or a beer bottle. Notice in the article where it says "Val Blatz Milwaukee Beer."  So far, this is the earliest article I have been able to find for F.H. Finley. Because the article says "Bottling" and not "Brewery" or "Brewing" it sounds like a soda bottling plant. However, also notice where it says "Bottlers Of" - which clearly suggest they bottled Blatz beer.  Like so many other topics in this thread, this one needs some more research.

Especially notice the address on the bottle is the same address that's in the article.



 


*The Washington Post, Washington D.C.  ~  February 16, 1895  ~  1206 D St. N.W.



*


----------



## shotdwn

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> I'm also wondering when these were made and used - and whether they were for blob or crown bottles? Or, maybe for both?  I have seen quite a few of them - none of which had a wire attached to it. The upper part is porcelain.
> 
> View attachment 212864
> 
> View attachment 212865
> 
> View attachment 212866


I would think that these could have been used for both. My speculation on these was that they were advertising give away.


----------



## shotdwn

SODABOB said:


> *Update ...*
> 
> As far as I know, this F.H. Finley & Son bottle with 1894 embossed on it is still the earliest known Crown bottle.  But, what I don't know is whether it is a soda bottle or a beer bottle. Notice in the article where it says "Val Blatz Milwaukee Beer."  So far, this is the earliest article I have been able to find for F.H. Finley. Because the article says "Bottling" and not "Brewery" or "Brewing" it sounds like a soda bottling plant. However, also notice where it says "Bottlers Of" - which clearly suggest they bottled Blatz beer.  Like so many other topics in this thread, this one needs some more research.
> 
> Especially notice the address on the bottle is the same address that's in the article.
> 
> View attachment 212869
> 
> 
> *The Washington Post, Washington D.C.  ~  February 16, 1895  ~  1206 D St. N.W.
> 
> View attachment 212870*


I agree with you on thinking this could be a soda bottle. I believe Blatz had their own embossed bottles with the Blatz name on them and I wouldn't think they would allow a bottler to bottle their beer in a bottle other than their own.


----------



## SODABOB

*News Flash!*

*Earliest "Crown Cork" Bottles*

*1893*

I just found these - which is a year earlier than the 1894 F. H. Finley bottle - and a new earliest date.  I found several bottles by these two brewers, including some blob-tops, but not a Crown that I can definitely say is from 1893. Please join the search and together we will make history - providing that someone can find one of these bottles that can definitively be dated to 1893 

*Meyer Beer - Wolters Brewing Company - Savannah, Georgia

The Atlanta Constitution - Atlanta, Georgia - April 30, 1893







King's Beer - Joseph F. Higgins - Hartford, Connecticut

The Hartford Courant - Hartford, Connecticut - July 12, 1893



*


----------



## hemihampton

Very Interesting, Nice Detective Work Bob. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, Leon

The only progress I have made are the locations for the two breweries

King's =  Boston, Mass
Meyer = Savannah, Georgia


----------



## UncleBruce

SODABOB said:


> I also found this today.  Notice what it says about "England" - which supposedly is where the Crown finish originated before William Painter patented his cap in 1892
> 
> *St. Louis Post Dispatch - December 13, 1894*
> 
> View attachment 212868


I'm not sure how you glean from this ad that the crown "ORIGINATED" in England when it was 100% invented by Painter residing in the US.  I think we can look at the ad as a reference to how quickly the CROWN came into use in England.  Not that it originated there.  The bottling industry was very strong in Europe and were always looking for an edge over competitors.  I'm sure that this device being called a *CROWN* didn't hurt either with the strong presence of *MONARCHY*.  In the US the lightning type closures were in vogue and WORKING just fine while the crown was looked on with suspicion due to the SIMPLICITY of the closure so it took longer for the US companies to come on board invention.  The writer of the article may not have been aware of what was going on in the US closure market and only learned about this through some other venue.  The closure wars were big money and I would say if a European entity had invented this, litigation would have quickly ensued.  Litigation never happened.  Instead of conjecture a good reference book is: *SODA AND BEER BOTTLE CLOSURES by David Graci.* He is the expert in the field of closures.


----------



## hemihampton

My research sez Painter started working on this invention in 1885 but didn't get it perfected or patented until 1892.


----------



## UncleBruce

hemihampton said:


> My research sez Painter started working on this invention in 1885 but didn't get it perfected or panted until 1892.


He invented several closures one notable other was the *BALTIMORE LOOP SEAL.  *Here are a few of his other patents.


----------



## hemihampton

I was referring to the crown top when I said that.

P.S. Painter had 85 patents under his name.


----------



## UncleBruce

hemihampton said:


> I was referring to the crown top when I said that.
> 
> P.S. Painter had 85 patents under his name.


That Painter boy was busier than a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.


----------



## hemihampton

Painter Info.


----------



## hemihampton

lawsuits.


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> I also found this today.  Notice what it says about "England" - which supposedly is where the Crown finish originated before William Painter patented his cap in 1892
> 
> *St. Louis Post Dispatch - December 13, 1894*
> 
> View attachment 212868




Re-read my post #253 and you will see where I said the "FINISH" (which is part of the bottle) supposedly originated in England.  I wasn't referring to William Painter's patented "CAP."  It would be easy to assume that the Finish and Cap were designed and patented simultaneously - although I have never seen or heard of a patent for that particular bottle Finish.

This link is to the original patent - where you will find the information in the attached snippet.



			https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/87/6c/ec/f957e641a05852/US468258.pdf
		


This link is to the bottle opener that Painter patented in 1894

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/77/7c/85/72139706fa6963/US514200.pdf





Its a bit like what came first; The chicken or the egg?  But in this case its, which came first, the Crown bottle or the Crown cap?  In other words, I have heard for years that the Crown bottle/finish originated in Europe - and specifically in England - and that William Painter designed his cap to fit on bottle types that already existed.  But, whether this is 100% accurate or not, I can't say with certainty. I researched this in the past, but never found anything conclusive. So, let's all take another look and see if we can find anything.  If we do, it will likely be a first.

Thanks to all

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

See what y'all think of this and we will discuss it later ...

*London, England - 1897



*


----------



## hemihampton

Notice my Ad here sez Patent in US & Europe.


----------



## SODABOB

I will address the crown FINISH bottles later, and see if we can figure out once and for all whether they originated in Europe or the United States.  For now I want to focus on the 1893 King's beer bottle with the crown finish and crown cap. I found dozens of the King's beer bottles, but could not find one with a paper label like the one in the 1893 ad - which depicts a picture of a bottle on it. I can't say for certain, but it's possible that that particular label was only used by Joseph F. Higgins in Hartford, Connecticut. Notice at the bottom of the ad where it says he was the "Sole Agent." That means he was a distributor and/or seller, but did not actually bottle it. This is confirmed where it says "These different brands of export bottlings are prepared only at the brewery."  Notice on the bottle label where it says "Continental Brewery - Boston." I did some brief research on the brewery, and it appears they were in operation between about 1877 and 1900.

Like I said, the only example of a paper label with a bottle on it I could find is in the 1893 ad itself. There were dozens of identical ads - all of which were published in the summer of 1893. I really don't know if that particular label was exclusive to Joseph H. Higgins or not. The problem is that most ads don't include illustrations of their bottles, and are what I call 'line' ads with not artwork.  I also looked through some ads from Boston, but the earliest one I could find that included an illustration of a King's beer bottle was from 1900. However, it depicts a different label. That particular label is on a lot of the King's bottles I have seen. Check out the King's bottle that is on eBay. Even though its a blob bottle, it has a paper label like the one in the 1900 ad. Its definitely King's bottle, as you will see on the base embossing. 

eBay link ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/KINGS-PURE...CINAL-BEER-BOTTLE-BLOB-CORK-TOP-/362691084421

The long story short is, of the dozens of King's crown-top beer bottles I have seen, the one I am attaching is the only one I have been able to find that might be pre 1900.  Of course, there is no way of knowing for certain if the label is original to the bottle - and only suggesting that it might be. What I like best about it is the crown finish itself - which looks kind of odd and is not what I would call a typical crown finish. But, who knows. Without a date mark or some other type of marks, its really difficult to determine when the bottle was made.  It would have to be examined in-hand to try and determine that. 

So, even though I can't say with certainty if the bottle I found is pre-1900, I suppose its as good a place to start as any. After this I'm going to research the Meyer beer bottle from Georgia and see if I have better luck with it.

*1893*






*1900



*

*????*

Notice the flat sides on the middle part (reinforcing ring) of the finish - not typical

*

*


----------



## SODABOB

Update ...

I went back to where I found the green King's bottle and saved an image of the base - which was so dark when I first saw it that I couldn't see any marks.  However, I highlighted it and discovered that its marked with ...

*VE*

The VE stands for Vetreria Etrusca - which was a glass works located in Italy.  They also made some of the early Vichy bottles.  Vichy was located in France and goes back to the 1800s. Unfortunately, neither I or the Bottle Research Group I belong to know how to accurately date VE bottles - mainly because they are foreign - which gets kind of confusing.  Just about the only way to approximate when a VE bottle was made is to determine if the bottle is hand-blown or machine made.  At the moment I'm not sure if the King's bottle is machine made or hand-blown.  All I know with relative certainty is that some of the VE bottles are possibly pre-1900.  Of course, there is also the possibility that the paper label is not original to the bottle - that some wazoo just stuck on it. 

*King's Beer Base*




 

*King's Beer Crown Finish





Vichy Bottle Date Unknown





Vichy Bottle Base w/VE



*


----------



## hemihampton

Seems odd a american label on a foreign bottle. while the Vichy is a France Label on a Italy Bottle, which makes more sense? LEON.


----------



## UncleBruce

hemihampton said:


> Seems odd a american label on a foreign bottle. while the Vichy is a France Label on a Italy Bottle, which makes more sense? LEON.


Your post reminded me of this oddity showing that the glass companies did not let geography isolate them.  Here is a NEBRASKA beer bottle FRED KRUG BR'G. CO. , made by STREATOR BOTTLE & GLASS CO (S B & G CO.) of ILLINOIS, using a GERMAN company DRESDEN (?) GLASS INDUSTRY blob top and stopper design.


----------



## SODABOB

Meet ...

*George Meyer*

Born - June 19, 1860 - Georgia
Death - Undetermined - Possibly 1930s
Father - Rudolph Meyer
Mother - Louise Meyer
Wife - Amelia - (Married in 1890)

1880 Voter Registration Occupation - Driver - Age 20 -  Likely for Knickerbocker Ice Co. - Savannah, Ga.
1884 - Associated with Anheuser Busch - Savannah, Georgia
1893 - Permanent receiver of P. H. Wolters Brewing Co.
1894 - General Manager - Georgia Brewing Association*

*Most references say the Georgia Brewing Association incorporated in 1894 - but I found a news article that indicates they incorporated in December of 1893.

Even though I have not found a George Meyer Crown-top bottle that can be definitively dated to 1893, the April 30, 1893 ad I posted earlier confirms they existed. So please keep that in mind when reviewing any histories related to this topic.

The paper label in the 1893 ad clearly depicts ...

1.  Meyer
2. Wolters Brewing
3. Savannah, Ga.

Atlanta Constitution newspaper - April 30, 1893






Atlanta Constitution newspaper - November 6, 1893





News Article - Georgia Brewing Association - December 18, 1893






Books - Memoirs of Georgia - Volumes 1 and 2 - Published in 1895





Page 403 from Volume 2





The only P. H. Wolters bottle I could find - Likely pre 1894 (The P is for Peter)





Meyer Blob - Date Unknown






Based on the above evidence, the next bottle is likely from 1894 or slightly later - although this is not confirmed. "Tooled" generally means it was handblown. The D.O.C. is for the D. O. Cunningham Glass Co. who used the mark from 1880 to 1931. The 125 is likely a catalog and/or a model number used by D. O. Cunningham.

Even though this particular bottle may not be the same one as the bottle illustrated in the 1893 ad, it is the closest I have been able to find and is worth considering as a possible candidate for one of the earliest Crown-top bottles known.  If this is a 1894 bottle, its possible that Meyer's 1893 bottle is similar to it.

In other words, the search continues.

This bottle and others can be seen via this link

http://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/ga/savannah/georgia.htm


----------



## SODABOB

I wanted to add these to the mix - both of which are from the same book that was published in ...

*1886








*


----------



## SODABOB

This is primarily for future researchers and/or anyone who questions the validity of the Meyer's Crown Cork bottle ad being from 1893 - the date of which can be seen at the top. I converted it to a pdf because the entire page is too large for posting and reading.


----------



## SODABOB

And here's the entire page for the 1893 King's Beer Crown Cork ad in pdf


----------



## greendirt330

According to Dale at OldBreweries.com P.H. Wolters Brewing Company was in business from 1892 to 1894 . All the bottles I have seen from there are blob tops , so I kinda doubt there was ever a crowntop from them.


----------



## hemihampton

If a crown top is in Ad I'd assume a crown top exist. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

To clarify ...

I did not intend to insinuate that the P. H. Wolters Brewery ever produced a Crown-top bottle.  My intent was to establish a connection between the Wolters Brewery and George Meyer.  It was George Meyer who used a Crown-top bottle in 1893.  Hopefully the following articles will help shed some light on the subject. 

The Morning News ~ Savannah, Georgia ~ November 9, 1892





The Morning News ~ Savannah, Georgia ~ March 18, 1894






The entire pages can be viewed in the pdf's


----------



## SODABOB

Meet ...

Peter Herman Wolters and family 


https://silverbluff.com/brunswick-georgias-historic-brewery/

http://www.glynngen.com/history/bottleskegs.htm


----------



## SODABOB

*The search continues ...










*


----------



## SODABOB

*In search of ...*


( Enlarged )


----------



## greendirt330

Wonder where the Artesian Manufacturing & Bottling Co. Dr. Pepper King of Beverages Waco Texas bottle would fall in this timeframe ?


----------



## SODABOB

greendirt330

Based on what I know about Dr. Pepper, the Artesian Manufacturing & Bottling Company was established in 1891. Their first bottles were Hutchinson's.  I don't know when their first Crown-top bottle was introduced, other than it would have been after 1891.  The tricky part is accurately dating them.  Even though this particular Hutch has a makers mark on the heel, its hard to say exactly when it was made.  It was made by the Illinois Glass Company and has their I. G. Co. mark - which was used between 1880 and 1915. So, even if an Artesian Crown-top bottle has this same mark, it would be difficult to accurately date.  However, there is a possibility that pre-1900, and possibly even 1892 to 1894 Artesian Crown-top bottles exist, but properly dating them is the challenge.  I will take a look around and see what else I can find.

Thanks for what I consider a great question.

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

They were definitely using a Crown-top bottle by ...

*1900



*


----------



## SODABOB

This may or may not help in dating certain Crown-top bottles - but thought I would post it anyway.  I have already found a lot of their bottles - the majority of which are Blob-tops - but there are also some Crown-tops that I am still researching.  Sometimes you have to research the brewers and/or bottlers themselves to determine the years they were in operation, and then correlate the bottles they used, who made them, and when - which can be as complicated as it sounds.  If interested, please join the search and see what we can find.  The EHE marks I have seen are usually on the heel of the bottle, but also can be found on the base.

*Everett Glass Works/Co.   ~  Everett, Pennsylvania  ~  c 1885 to c 1904  ~  EHE Mark  ~  Edward H. Everett*

These two articles are the earliest I have been able to find for the Everett Glass Co. that mentions Crown Cork bottles - and still looking for earlier ones.  Notice the Crown Cork & Seal Co. connection - and trying to determine when it was first established.  If nothing else, these articles are the earliest I am aware of that focus on a particular bottle manufacturer who made Crown-top bottles. 

*1896



*


*1897






Sha.org



*


----------



## SODABOB

This list includes some of the Crown-top bottles I found that have the EHE mark. As time allows, I will research each of these brands and see if I can determine what years they were in operation. If one or more of them ceased operation prior to 1900, that should help narrow down when a particular bottle was made. The majority of these bottles are amber beer bottles, with only one of them being aqua colored. The only one I know for certain that is a soda bottle is the amber Coca Cola. I'm also attaching two examples of the EHE CO mark. If you don't hear from me before the year ends, then you will know that I struck out.  

Coca Cola - Pulaski, Virginia - Base script - Amber Soda
Bavarian Brewing Co. - Covington, Kentucky - Amber Beer
Orange County Brewery - Middleton, New York - Amber Beer
Jung Brewing Co. - Cincinnati, Ohio - Amber Beer
Weideman Brewing - Newport, Kentucky - Amber Beer 
G. W. Meredith - East Liverpool, Ohio - Amber Beer
South Chicago Brewery - Amber Beer
J. C. Schemm - Saginaw, Michigan - Amber Beer
Robert Portner Brewing Co. - Alexandria, Pennsylvania - Amber Beer
Roseneck Brewing Co. - Richmond, Virginia - Aqua Beer


----------



## brent little

Ever seen a crown top torpedo bottle? i have one.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, Brent

Yes, I did find one - but didn't post it because it wasn't embossed with a brand or bottler's name.  But it is embossed on the rounded base with EHE CO.  Does yours have this mark?  And do you know who used these bottles?


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, Brent

Please don't take this wrong, but you might have opened a can of worms with your Crown-top Torpedo bottle.  The reason I say that is because ...

1.  Most of them are foreign made
2. An indication of a foreign Crown-top is the "Slop" below the Crown 
3. The "Slop" is the result of the Crown being "Applied" after the body was formed
4. Which takes us back to where Crown-top bottles originated - Europe or the United States?   

Torpedo Bottle - Very likely foreign made







Torpedo Crown finish with "Slop-over"


----------



## BrentC

I don't know if this will help with the crown top torpedo bottles. Here are some pics of one I have with a label. 

Brent C


----------



## embe

Wow, that's pretty cool


----------



## UncleBruce

It is interesting that they would continue to use a "ROUND BOTTOM" torpedo for a crown top.  I guess they didn't trust that cork in the cap think it would dry out.  Could have been easier to continue using this shape in lieu of change.


----------



## BrentC

embe said:


> Wow, that's pretty cool


 I lucked out with this one. It was in a box of bottles I bought a few weeks ago for $5.  

Brent


----------



## SODABOB

Brent

Beautiful bottle - Thanks for sharing it.  The closeup of the Crown appears to show some of the "Slop" that I referred to earlier.  If it is "Slop" that I see, its highly likely the bottle was made in Europe, with England (Great Britain) being the most likely source.  

This ad is from a 1909 issue of the American Bottler magazine.  Notice that "Bull Ginger Ale" is from Belfast, Ireland.  Also notice where it says Max Rosenheim "has been on the market for 12 years."  if we deduct 12 years from 1909, that means he entered the market in 1887.  So its possible that your bottle is earlier than 1909.  But, if it is earlier than 1909, its hard to say how much earlier without knowing more about it.


----------



## BrentC

SODABOB said:


> Brent
> 
> Beautiful bottle - Thanks for sharing it.  The closeup of the Crown appears to show some of the "Slop" that I referred to earlier.  If it is "Slop" that I see, its highly likely the bottle was made in Europe, with England (Great Britain) being the most likely source.
> 
> This ad is from a 1909 issue of the American Bottler magazine.  Notice that "Bull Ginger Ale" is from Belfast, Ireland.  Also notice where it says Max Rosenheim "has been on the market for 12 years."  if we deduct 12 years from 1909, that means he entered the market in 1887.  So its possible that your bottle is earlier than 1909.  But, if it is earlier than 1909, its hard to say how much earlier without knowing more about it.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 213326


You are absolutely amazing finding out info on these bottles. Thank you. There is quite a bit of slop where the top was applied. Hopefully this pic gives a better angle.


----------



## SODABOB

Brent

Thanks for the pic - looks like slop to me. Applied finish bottles with slop are very rarely seen on bottles made in the U.S.

However ...

The Bull Ginger Ale story doesn't end in England.  I don't know the date of this particular label, but I did a little research on Peter Schille. He operated a bottling plant in Columbus, Ohio starting in the late 1800s, and at one time used Hutchinson bottles. The label appears to indicate that Schille signed up with Max Rosenheim to bottle and distribute Bull Ginger Ale in Columbus. I suspect there were other American bottles who did as well.

This link is to a 2011 forum thread and has quite a bit of information about Peter Schille

https://www.antique-bottles.net/threads/info-value-on-a-bottle.407589/


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of British made bottles ...

Although I can't say for certain, some of the bottles in this 1892 ad look suspiciously similar to Crown-top bottles.  At first I thought some of them were depicted with corks and/or stoppers, but now I'm not sure. The torpedo bottle at the bottom is definitely blob - but what about the others?

Double-click on the image and it will expand. And then click again for super-zoom


----------



## SODABOB

In case the double-clicker quits working.  Its these bottles that I am the most curious about - especially the one on the right.  Crown-top or something else?


----------



## hemihampton

They all look like blobs with corks to me. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

*1894 Canadian Crown Cork Bottle

Edward L. Drewry
E. L. Drewry*


This is the earliest Canadian Crown Cork ad I can find - and might be of interest to Canadian collectors. I have found lots of Drewry bottles, but not sure how to date them.  Some of them are amber colored with the name embossed in what is typically called a slug-plate - and others are aqua colored with a lot of embossing, such as the one in the attached snippet.  I don't know how accurate the 11-B information is, but there is an example of one currently on eBay.  There are also a couple of the amber slug-plate bottles currently on eBay.  Plus a couple of the aqua bottles that are embossed with 06 and 08.  They also used stoneware bottles - which I don't know how to date either.  Apparently the company was established in 1877, and also used some ACL bottles in the 1940s or later.  If anyone has one, or knows how to date their 1894 Crown Cork bottles, please share it with us.


*1894 Ad*


----------



## embe

Research like that takes some effort, and I appreciate the effort


----------



## SODABOB

embe

Thanks - Sometimes my efforts pay off and sometimes they don't.  As you will see in my next post, they might have paid off handsomely. 

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

BrentC said:


> Here are two early ones that I have. The first one has "The non corkable patent bottle" embossed with the name of the company. It has 4 pieces of glass that are inside the lip of the bottle.
> 
> The second one has a seam that sticks out about 1/16" and then disappears.
> View attachment 212570View attachment 212571View attachment 212572View attachment 212573View attachment 212574




Hey, Brent

You might have a 1892-1893 bottle and not even know it.  I can't say for certain if this particular patent is directly related to your Non-Corkable bottle, but if it isn't, it's pretty dang close.  Notice it was first filed on May 16, 1892 - which was only three months after William Painter was granted the patent for his Crown closure on February 2, 1892.  This is another example where more research is needed, and hopefully determine the exact date for your bottle.  In other words, it could turn out that your Non-Corkable bottle is the earliest known Crown-top bottle.

Here's the link to the original patent - where I found the attached images. Compare it to your bottle.

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/6e/70/61/718028d6b775e4/US491198.pdf









Coincidence or Connection?


----------



## BrentC

That is crazy. I think it looks like the enlarged detail above.  Thank you for doing the research on this bottle.

Brent


----------



## SODABOB

Brent

You're welcome. Could you please post another photo showing the entire bottle with the embossing on the front.  This is the only one you posted of the entire bottle.  Now we need to try and find another example similar to it that can be dated - which I am currently focusing on.  Just for the record, the following applies to the Alexander Straus patent ...

Patent Number = 491,198
Filed = May 16, 1892
Granted = February 7, 1893
Note:  Some bottles were produced before they were granted a patent.


*In Search of ...*


----------



## BrentC

Here are a few more pictures. Let me know if you need something more specific or zoomed in.


----------



## SODABOB

Perfecto - Thank you.  Your attachments even work with the double-triple-clicking for closeups.  By the way, are there any unseen symbols, numbers, or letters embossed on the bottle?


----------



## BrentC

There are no additional markings on the bottle.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks - I was hoping there was. Another clue to finding others like it might be to search ...

*The Sterilized Beer Bottling Company ~ Carbondale, Pennsylvania*


----------



## SODABOB

The following is to confirm the company actually existed - and even used Hutchinson bottles






						STERILIZED BEER BOTTLING COMPANY
					






					brucemobley.com
				







SODABOB said:


> BrentC
> 
> According to this news article, the Sterilized Beer Bottling Co. (Carbondale, Pa.) was established in 1904. Which suggest that your "Non Corkable" bottle was made in 1904 or later.  I'm also attaching an article from 1905 that provides some names for future research.  They also used a Hutch bottle - although those were typically used for soda and not beer.  Your bottle appears to be hand-blown - which was still being done in 1904-05
> 
> View attachment 212625
> 
> View attachment 212626
> 
> View attachment 212627




*This re-post is intended as a reminder - but still doesn't address the 1892-93 Alexander Straus patent*


----------



## SODABOB

This one does address Alexander "Alex" Straus - and hopefully will provide us with some more clues. In case you didn't notice, the Alexander Straus who was granted the 1892-93 bottle patent lived in Baltimore at the time.  Speaking of which, I'm surprised there was no mention of William Painter in Straus' patent.  Painter was also from Baltimore. 

*The Baltimore Sun ~ November 4, 1892*


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

I wasn't sure what the definition of "Purloin" was, so I looked it up ...


----------



## SODABOB

In the 1892 newspaper article I posted, notice the names ...

*Gottlieb - Bauernschmidt - Straus*

and then read these ...

History - Established in 1901

https://baltimoreheritage.org/issue/eigenbrot-brewery/

Bottles

https://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/md/baltimore/gott.htm

Maybe one of them produced a super-early Crown-top bottle


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If anyone is confused at this point, please don't feel like the Lone Ranger because I'm a little confused myself.  I never know where my research will take me until I actually perform it.  All I am fairly confident about at the moment is as follows ...

1.  Brent's Non-Corkable bottle was most likely made in 1904 or later.

2. Because Alexander Straus' bottle was patented in 1892-93, there is a good chance that "someone" produced it at that time - although I currently do not know who that "someone" might have been.

3. However, because a lot of what I have seen centers around Baltimore, Maryland, that appears to be as good a place as any to focus our attention - especially with any of the breweries that were in operation in Baltimore around 1892 and 1893.

Thanks again to everyone who has participated and/or taken an interest in this topic - with a little luck one of us might actually find a confirmed 1892 Crown-top bottle.

Confused or not, this link is to a LOT of Maryland breweries - 115 of which were located in Baltimore ...






						Maryland | Old Breweries Information | Breweriana Values
					






					www.oldbreweries.com
				




Bob


----------



## hemihampton

Looks like a Salesman Sample for a Bottle. After a Patent was applied for, since there was lag time to get it approved items were made with some stating Patent(s) Pending. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Because Bruce Mobley seems to know his stuff, I'm adding these Pennsylvania breweries to the list - which includes the Sterilized Beer Bottling Company located in Carbondale.  Maybe one of these produced a super-early Crown-top bottle.  If you aren't already confused, this should do it and keep us busy - dare I say "forever"  






						PENNSYLVANIA'S BREWERIES AND BOTTLING COMPANIES
					






					brucemobley.com


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Looks like a Salesman Sample for a Bottle. After a Patent was applied for, since there was lag time to get it approved items were made with some stating Patent(s) Pending. LEON.



Leon

Are you referring to Brent's bottle or some other bottle?  

Thanks

Bob


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> Are you referring to Brent's bottle or some other bottle?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bob



Brent''s Bottle. It was popular/common for salesman to go around trying to sell there products & they had to have a sample to show potential customers. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

for example.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Thanks - I get what you are saying.  However, if Brent's bottle was a salesman's sample, wouldn't it also include the name of the bottle manufacture who was making them - similar to the can you posted that says it was made by the Continental Can Company?  In other words, WHO do you think MADE Brent's bottle?  I can't say for certain, but I doubt it was MADE by the Sterilized Beer Bottling Company - although it might have been made exclusively FOR them - but by WHO? Which takes us back to the 1892-93 Alexander Straus patent.  If they were made in quantity and distributed, I wonder WHO made them?  

I apologize for any confusion this might generate, but confusion seems to be par for the course with me lately.

Bob


----------



## hemihampton

Maybe it was like my first pic where it advertise the Hutchinson Bottle, but The Hutchinson bottle was made by at least 20 different Bottle makers, it was not made or marked WWH which is Hutchinson.?


----------



## SODABOB

*Bay View Brewing ~ Baltimore, Maryland and/or Norfolk, Virginia

Possible 1892 Crown-top Bottle or Wild Goose Chase?

Baltimore Sun Newspaper ~ 1975





Brewing In Baltimore Book ~ Maureen O'Prey ~ 2011





Norfolk, Virginia Newspaper ~ 1890





Brewers' Review Magazine ~ 1902 ~ Gottlieb-Bauernschmidt-Straus





One Hundred Years of Brewing Book ~ 1903 ~ H.S. Rich & Co. New York





Bruce Mobley Websites*

A B Co = American Bottle Co. = 1906-1914
D. O. C. = D. O. Cunningham Glass Co. - 1880-1931
E H E Co = Edward H. Everett Glass Co. - 1885-1903
N. B. B. G. Co. = North Baltimore Bottle Glass Company - 1885-1920s

*


			BAY VIEW BREWERY
		


GBS ~ Stands for Gottlieb-Bauernschmidt-Straus



			GBS
		

*


----------



## SODABOB

This bottle is currently on eBay.  I contacted the seller and he said it is marked with ...

E H E Co 761 or 192  =  Edward H. Everett Glass Co. - 1885-1903









						GBS AQUA BAY VIEW BREWERY BALTIMORE MD MARYLAND NORFOLK VA BEER BOTTLE CROWN  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for GBS AQUA BAY VIEW BREWERY BALTIMORE MD MARYLAND NORFOLK VA BEER BOTTLE CROWN at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


----------



## SODABOB

*If ...*

If Maureen O'Prey's information is accurate about Bay View Brewery being the first to use a Crown-top

If the following articles are accurate in that G.B.S. (Gottleib-Bauernschmidt-Straus) was established in 1901

The Baltimore Sun October 10, 1901





"One Hundred Years of Brewing" published in 1903





Then it appears to me that we can eliminate any of the bottles embossed with GBS as being produced any earlier than 1901 - and likely not the Crown-top that O'Prey was referring to. Which leaves us with this bottle as a possible contender for a 1892 Crown-top (Pre GBS)

Bay View Brewery Norfolk Branch









D.O. Cunningham Mark - Used between 1880 and 1931
(I don't know what the 27 stands for but likely a catalog or style number and not a date)






From Bruce Mobley site


----------



## SODABOB

This is the only brand of beer I can find related to the Bay View Brewery in Norfolk, Virginia in 1892.  The brand was not exclusive to Bay View and was sold in other states as well.  I am still searching for an ad that illustrates the type of bottle they used in 1892, but no luck yet, and will keep looking.  

Have a safe and happy Halloween 

Bob


The Norfolk Virginian - March 15, 1892


----------



## hemihampton

You might have better luck finding a early crown if you looked for a bauernschmidt brewing bottle also known as bauernschmidt & marr  brewing co in 1889-1899 & also known as Baltimore United Breweries at same time. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, Leon

Finding Baltimore and/or Norfolk beer bottles is the easy part - but accurately dating them can be a Nightmare on Elm Street - especially when it comes to narrowing it down to a single year such as 1892. These links are to Bruce Mobley's site and include some of the bottles you mentioned. Take your pick as to which of them was made in 1892.

Baltimore

https://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/md/baltimore/bauernschmidtf.htm

https://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/md/baltimore/babreweries.htm






						MARYLAND'S BREWERIES AND BOTTLING COMPANIES
					






					brucemobley.com
				





Norfolk






						VIRGINIA'S BREWERIES AND BOTTLING COMPANIES
					






					brucemobley.com
				






Thanks, again

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

The book via this link was published in 1914 and includes everything we ever want to know about William Painter and his Crown Cork.  Its a fun read where you can enlarge the pages by using the (+) and turn them with ease using the < > 

https://archive.org/details/williampainterhi00pain/page/n6/mode/2up


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Thanks, Leon
> 
> Finding Baltimore and/or Norfolk beer bottles is the easy part - but accurately dating them can be a Nightmare on Elm Street - especially when it comes to narrowing it down to a single year such as 1892. These links are to Bruce Mobley's site and include some of the bottles you mentioned. Take your pick as to which of them was made in 1892.
> 
> Baltimore
> 
> https://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/md/baltimore/bauernschmidtf.htm
> 
> https://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/md/baltimore/babreweries.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARYLAND'S BREWERIES AND BOTTLING COMPANIES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brucemobley.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norfolk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIRGINIA'S BREWERIES AND BOTTLING COMPANIES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brucemobley.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, again
> 
> Bob




I've always agreed with that, that narrowing down a exact date on any 1890's crown top would almost be impossible, unless the Brewery was only used or in Operation a couple short years. Even dates embossed into them I think are questionable since I think they could & would use those same molds/dates for years afterwards. if not then why not have a different date embossed into each bottle for each year, haven't seen that. I'm talking about big full dates, not little morse code 2 digit bottle maker code needing deciphering. LEON.


----------



## UncleBruce

Here is the great thing about crown top lips.  Bottling companies didn't have to use the crown cap they could still put lightning closures on them.  I have several of these with similar closures.


----------



## SODABOB

Bruce

Thanks for the observation - it reminds me of this 1897 article that I posted earlier.






I recently acquired a copy of Maureen O'Prey's 2011 Book "Brewing In Baltimore" and she cites the source for the information on page 37 as coming from the BMI / Baltimore Museum of Industry.  The CCS at the bottom of the page stands for Crown Cork & Seal located in Baltimore. I'm still reading the book and as far as I can tell she knows her stuff and is a professional author and researcher - which suggest that her claim about the Bay View Brewery in Baltimore being the first to use a Crown Cork is probably accurate. However, that being said, we still have to figure out how to accurately date those particular bottles - which likely won't be easy.













I'm also looking for a copy of the book "Background to the Crown" by Cecil J. Parker.  I'm not sure when it was published but believe it was in the 1950s.  Somewhere in it there is a discussion about a closure invented by William Gedge that looks a lot like a Crown-top.  Just for curiosity sake I would like to see what it has to say. William Gedge was from England.









1878 London Patent Journal - British patent number 2481 - June 21, 1878





Later Alligators - There is still a lot of research that needs to be done - which I plan to do as time allows and will be back if I find anything substantial.  And if anyone else finds anything of interest, especially if it pertains to a *1892 *Crown-top bottle, please share it with us.

Thanks again to all

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I also plan to buy this book "The Bottle King" when I can find an affordable copy.  The cheapest one I have found so far is $30 - but I don't want to pay that much.  Its about the Edward Everett Glass Co. and might have some helpful information. They were in operation in 1892 and the book might say when they produced their first Crown-top bottle. This is the same company connected with the 1897 article I just posted. 

https://www.amazon.com/Edward-Hamlin-Everett-Bottle-King/dp/B003X5WHMS


----------



## SODABOB

*1892?



*


----------



## PlaneDiggerCam

Found this one with a really sloppy top. Probably English, but it has some neat etching!


----------



## nhpharm

English and from 1910ish.  I've dug those as well, usually from resort dumps.


----------



## embe

Speaking of Crown, are these crates desirable?  I messaged the seller and didn't hear back.  Wondered if it was worth pursuing further


----------



## BrentC

Here is a crown top from the 1700's on ebay.









						VTG/Antique ocean Artifact Bottle opaque green V-1710 Ale beer FLORIDA⛵Shipwreck  | eBay
					

Good, pre-owned,  condition: This rare dark green bottle will display beautifully on your sow case wall. The 1710 is likely a style or mold number and not a date. ( Estate find of bottle collector/Deep water diver ).



					www.ebay.com


----------



## hemihampton

Wow, Didn't know they were making crown tops in 1710 or 1700's? LOL. I'm guessing more like 1910, they are off by about 200 years.


----------



## sandchip

hemihampton said:


> Wow, Didn't know they were making crown tops in 1710 or 1700's? LOL. I'm guessing more like 1910, they are off by about 200 years.



But they're rare, almost as rare as the pimple pontils.


----------



## SODABOB

No Way - NOT made in 1710 - I contacted the seller and educated him the best I could - which he thanked me for and admitted he was not an expert and knew very little about bottles, and just assumed 1710 was a date.  He also said that he was going to revise the listing and include some or all of the information I shared with him - which is that I believe the bottle is of European origin (Crown finish is "sloppy") and was most likely made in the early 1900s or 1920s. The V on the base is also a clue, and could very well be the mark for the Vetreria Etrusca Glass Company located in Italy. I suspect the 1710 is either a mold or style number - definitely not a date.  

This link is to a brief history about the company ...









						Company - Vetreria Etrusca
					

Vetreria Etrusca




					www.vetreriaetrusca.it


----------

