# While all of you were living your lives.................



## Steve/sewell (Sep 27, 2011)

this happened yesterday, http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/26/geomagnetic-solar-storm-in-progress/#more-48238  and while this was happening subsequently all of this happened here on earth............      http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/                http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/NOAAscales/index.html#RadioBlackouts
http://maestro.haarp.alaska.edu/data/spectrum2/www/hf.html .Because of the solar storm,we can worry about the increased possibility of this happening..
 ..........................    http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/42.52.-130.-120.php  There has been good sound scientific evidence supporting the fact that when ever a solar event of this magnitude occurs earth quakes soon follow.Other side effects are pacemakers malfunctioning,,cell phones and wireless networks being severely affected ( I can attest to this as I had at least 10 customers complain their wireless signals on their data networks were either non existent or barley working.This was still occurring today although once dark arrived here in the east things cleared up big time.

 So you see Mr Gore,and the global climate change crowd, mans influence on the atmosphere is merely an eye dropper in an ocean compared to the moon and the sun.Once you have studied what really goes on here on earth it is plain and simple to see how the bright spot in the sky is 100 percent in control of our atmosphere and man is in control of ZERO.You youngsters on here at this forum still in school,fight back when you are being force fed all the go-green bullsh_t at school.Tell your teachers if every citizen in the world who owned a car all started them tomorrow evening at precisely 12:00AM  Prime Meridian Greenwich, England time and left them on for one year we wouldn't heat the planet up one degree,but if we enter a period similar to this one observed from 1645 to 1715, a period known as the Maunder  Minimum in which there were practically no sunspots. This period coincided with  part of the â€œLittle Ice Age,â€ in which average temperatures in the northern  hemisphere dropped by 2 to 4 degrees F. Then Al Gore and his likes will be stocking up on firewood for the next 50 years.Guess what ? Its coming, its all ready started, again while all of you were living your lives.We have just began a solar minimum and there are strong indications it wont be the usual 10 to 14 year one but maybe an extended one to rival the mini age mentioned here. http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-06/hibernating-sun-during-next-solar-cycle-could-chill-earth-new-forecast-predicts     Just thought I would pass this along to all the good folk at ABN.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 27, 2011)

Steve,
 You're scaring the school kiddies.


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

I am but a messenger,not to be feared or believed,[]its up to all of you to make good informed decisions about your own and the worlds future.[8|] I do read quite a bit of science literature and the consensus of most of the reasonable scientists on each side of the global warming debate are in agreement that an extended period of cooling has begun and will last for quite some time.[&:]That sunspot picture is amazing,once I have my telescope built I will be able to take pictures just like the one shown in the article.I have too much life occurring right now to allow that to happen but once winter settles in I will have much more time for my hobbies again maybe even bottles.[]


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## JOETHECROW (Sep 28, 2011)

> once winter settles in I will have much more time for my hobbies again maybe even bottles.


 
 If what you say is true Steve,..we should all have plenty of winter down time...(Glad we still have the bakery to dig under)...[]


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

If this rain would ever get out of here in the mid Atlantic we could perhaps join in viewing all of this...........   http://www.universetoday.com/89250/aurora-alert-for-september-26-and-27/   the Aurora Borealis  If it is clear out this evening particularly you forum members in New York State,Minnesota,Wisconsin ect  ect get out  and enjoy this as you _w_ont have another chance in your lifetimes like this one!!


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

A video animation to explain what happened yesterday and is still happening this evening. Oh How Tesla would wish he was here for this one!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUhqXU1KpZ0  Tonight at mid nite Eastern time look for the Aurora it should be outstanding!! The sun is roughly 93 million miles away it took 8 minutes 20 seconds for this flare to arrive here on earth.


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

Try this link    http://www.universetoday.com/89250/aurora-alert-for-september-26-and-27      I hate java (Sun micro) sometimes not as much as Microsoft but almost!!


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

Again while we worked slept and enjoyed life all of these were occurring around Southern California.    

 http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/27.37.-120.-110.php


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

Here is an interesting chart. Look how active Alaska,Hawaii and Southern California are       http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/


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## ajohn (Sep 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Again while we worked slept and enjoyed life all of these were occurring around Southern California.
> 
> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/27.37.-120.-110.php


 I must have been in the bathroom,cause I haven't felt a thing.


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## rockbot (Sep 28, 2011)

I've always paid close attention to our sun and its activity. After all 98% of all the events that we see on earth is directly related to the sun and moon.[]

 If I recall correctly in 1851 we were hit with a large magnetic storm. The Aurora was visible in Cuba and most of America was  inadvertently affected. Telegraph lines were severely damaged.

 If that same magnetic storm were to hit us today it would be catastrophic. All electronics, power generation systems, etc would be destroyed. It would take months to restore the power grid.


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 28, 2011)

Hey Steve's back


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 28, 2011)

Denying that we have screwed up the planet it simply a deluded fantasy: The effects may not be extremely visible right now, but our children's children will curse our very existence.


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## rockbot (Sep 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Wheelah23
> 
> Denying that we have screwed up the planet it simply a deluded fantasy: The effects may not be extremely visible right now, but our children's children will curse our very existence.


 
  We've come a long way though. Back in the early seventies I remember how polluted our rivers and lakes were. Its a whole lot cleaner now just looking at it but whats hidden in the silt and sediment will never go away.[]

 Hopeful with new technologies we will be able to clean up some the mess that we've done.

 I remember in grade school watching reel to reel videos and how back in the 30's they said it would take 100 years to pollute the great lakes, well we did it in 30 years!


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## carobran (Sep 28, 2011)

global warminh is a bunch of junk.............for instance around here we didnt get any measurable snow in 7 or 8 years............then the year before last we got an inch and a half,then last year we got 3 inches................and ill admit the ice is melting in the Artic.....................its called summer[8|]............its when things get hot and ice melts...........it happens around here too believe it or not......................your not another AL(knows nothing)Gore are ya Wheelah..................Lord i hope not [8|][8|][sm=rolleyes.gif][:'(][]


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## div2roty (Sep 28, 2011)

> global warminh is a bunch of junk.............for instance around here we didnt get any measurable snow in 7 or 8 years............then the year before last we got an inch and a half,then last year we got 3 inches................and ill admit the ice is melting in the Artic.....................its called summer............its when things get hot and ice melts...........it happens around here too believe it or not......................your not another AL(knows nothing)Gore are ya Wheelah..................Lord i hope not


 
 global warming is not directly related to snow and winter temps


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 28, 2011)

"Global warming" is now a term thrown around by stubborn conservatives who refuse to face scientific facts. That phrase was coined a long time ago, and doesn't encompass all of the problems we have caused. The average global temperature has risen considerably over the past hundred years. Rising temperatures change ocean currents and the weather in general, leading to more frequent extremes of climate. The term "global warming" isn't untrue; it is just not all that is happening. "Global climate change" is far more accurate.


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## cyberdigger (Sep 28, 2011)

If there is a silver lining to America's loss of industrial might and manufacturing prowess, it would be that we are not polluting our own country so much any more.. just an idle thought..
 I'm waiting for the next huge solar event which will knock out everything electrical, that is going to be a BIG GAME CHANGER, folks...


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## carobran (Sep 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
> 
> "Global warming" is now a term thrown around by stubborn conservatives who refuse to face scientific facts. That phrase was coined a long time ago, and doesn't encompass all of the problems we have caused. The average global temperature has risen considerably over the past hundred years. Rising temperatures change ocean currents and the weather in general, leading to more frequent extremes of climate. The term "global warming" isn't untrue; it is just not all that is happening. "Global climate change" is far more accurate.


 _i hope you never become a politician...............although youd make a good one..............._this country isny any hotter than it was 100 years ago.................all that stuff is is a bunch of lies[:'(][:'(][][][8|][:'(]


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## rockbot (Sep 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> If there is a silver lining to America's loss of industrial might and manufacturing prowess, it would be that we are not polluting our own country so much any more.. just an idle thought..
> I'm waiting for the next huge solar event which will knock out everything electrical, that is going to be a BIG GAME CHANGER, folks...


 
 My sentiments exactly Charlie.

 All one has to do is look at the other 80% of the world, China, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, India
 and most other 3rd world nations including some 2nd rate and European nations to see the facts. I've been to most of these places and they don't give a rats ars about "climate change" and the like. Some of these places are so polluted it boggles the mind. The  worst part is you see people living at garbage dumps. They scavenge through trash bags in the rivers below taking out what every they can sell and the rest of the junk washes out to the oceans. I've seen thousands of people do this every day! When basic survival is at hand no one but over educated wealthy people with to much time on their hands can worry about climate change. 

 The USA is only .5% of the earths population and I know we consume a whole lot but we can't put the blame on our fellow Americans being conservative or liberal for "climate change".

 If we as Americans want to make a difference we need to get away from a consumable society. That will solve a lot of problems, from the environment to greedy rich corporations making cheap junk that don't last.

 And as Cyber once said... " we got to much people" on this planet!


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Right, because you know all about that... [8|]

 There's propoganda coming from both sides, obviously. Personal agendas are always involved. But you can't honestly tell me you think the millions of tons of industrial garbage we as humans belch out every day has no effect on the world.


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 28, 2011)

Conner,and the rest of you
  I view the environment as a two edged sword.I have an Uncle Bill who worked at DuPont and CIBA Geigy for over 40 years.Uncle Bill suffers from the beginning stages of  Mesothelioma.He is not bitter about it and he does not blame DuPont or CIBA Geigy for giving him this terrible disease as his view is as follows.What would he have done differently or where he have worked at that would have paid the kind of money he made working at DuPont.He would not have been able to send all 4 of my cousins through college without the high paying job he attained at both companies.

 The trade off' sick in his elder years a victim of an unknown disease that has only recently in the last 10 years come to be recognized.Yes hes not happy he is sick but he is 78 years old and has seen and done everything imaginable.He will not join a class action lawsuit against his former employer as they gave him everything a man could ever wish for.They didn't know or cover up hazardous condition's at the plant just to benefit the share holders.They were making a product to the best of all the employees combined efforts to make the world a better place.  DuPont has founded some of the most important and innovative coatings and plastics the world has ever known.I am proud to say

  I am for mild pollution as it means we are busy manufacturing here at home,being innovative and productive.Hell none of us would be able to be sitting here this evening with out good old fashioned pollution the by product of the motherboards laying in all of our PCs that has allowed all of this forum to exist.None of us would have any of the bottles and glass we collect without the pollution created in the making process.Pollution we have been taught is a very bad thing when in fact there is just as much good with pollution as there is bad.Sit back and think where any of us would be today without pollution.I can tell you where.... in the Fri_gin dark that's where, because as soon as you started a fire to see where the heck you were at and to warm your cold A S S you would be creating pollution the big evil.

 Enough already bring back all of the industry we have lost the last 40 years and that unemployment number Obama hates to see every evening will go way down.   My advice......Stop being a bunch of mamby pambys, man up,, become self sufficient, stop sucking the governments teets, Love your God ,Love your family,help others less fortunate then you, be the answer and the solution,stay passionate be bold, speak out,call a spade a spade,walk and talk quietly but carry a big stick and know when its time to use it.

 Do you want to stop bullying in school let the kids fight for God sakes,hell my Dad made me fight a guy who wanted to kick my A S S badly,I lost but he never came around again lookin for a fight just to play pickup baseball.You older members here saw it you would fight your best friend and an hour later you were buddies again laughing and joking having a good time.Today we have crisis counselors telling all of us we are all A.D.D.and they can fix us with Yoga and parental meetings ect ect.Horse Sh_t I say stop watching so much damn TV, throw out you Xboxes and your playstations go dig a hole and look for our lineal ancestors pollution (bottles) It is great exercise and a lot of fun to do

 Its time we take the country back from the environmentalist extremists who have forced all of our industry to the Orient.Yes regulate mildly,yes try not to pollute but dammit don't stifle all of our country's greatness for the sake of saving the planet.We could not kill this planet if we tried.Remember this CO2 is a trace gas incapable of storing heat in fact Oxygen is much more capable of storing heat then CO2.Man made Global climate change is a MYTH its cyclic, its sun and ocean driven,and in the end nature has a way of fixing itself that none of us will ever truly understand. Where you heat it up in one spot on the planet mother earth corrects it elsewhere.This is what hurricanes were designed by God to do, dispel heat into the atmosphere Plain and simple.

 The storms are not getting any stronger because of mans influence on the climate,yea we had a lot of rain here in the Northeast this year,Texas and the other Southern middle states had a severe drought and there were a ton of Tornadoes this past spring and we had record breaking snow the past two winters but not because of human activity, but it is directly related to the sun and the ocean currents,as they did this alone and they are supposed to this as it their job to do so.All of the extremes seen here this year in our climate have appeared before in cycles and will continue to appear on and off  in the coming century's with out mans influence.

 If we dont get busy here again at home we will have a total welfare state dependent on the Government for everything and it is then we can start  singing BY BY Miss American Pie Drove my Prius Hybrid ethanol electric car to the levee and the levee was dry.That just doesn't sound right to me.....Wow slipped off my soapbox and hurt my A S S................NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.


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## southern Maine diver (Sep 28, 2011)

Well put Steve!!! Eloquent as usual!
 I have a "Big Stick" and I am so very ready to us it... it is time to take a stand. Good for you
 Wayne


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 28, 2011)

Wow. That's a lot to take in. 

 I feel like I'd be arguing with a brick wall here. Clearly nothing I can say would change your "AMERICA! F**K YEAH!" attitude. I think it's this attitude that continues and will continue to destroy this planet. That's all I will say on the subject.

 But I ask you to consider: what if the scientists are right? Are you all too selfish to care about what our planet will look like in 100 years, because you'll be dead? I know I was hoping to stay on this planet for a good long time, but at the rate we're screwing it up, who knows what will happen.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 28, 2011)

> what if the scientists are right?


 I try not to get into these types fo discussions but, oh well . . . 
 Wheelah. There is growing consensus among scientists that global warming is junk science. In fact, they try not to use the term 'global warming' amymore because their models have already been disproven by actual empirical data. Now, the correct term is 'global climate change'. That way, no matter what happens with the weather, you can still blame somebody.


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 28, 2011)

What "scientists"? The American Association of Petroleum Geologists doesn't count, for obvious reasons...


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 29, 2011)

How about 31,000 scientists including 9,000 phds in 2008? 
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=64734


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## andy volkerts (Sep 29, 2011)

[8D] I do not worry to much about our activities heating up the planet extremely. I know that there is a certain amount of truth to the global warming story. I fear the results of pollution by all our discarded garbage ruining the oceans more that anything else. I have been involved in rescuing birds and otters, seals and sea gulls tangled in plastic bags, soda can plastic hoops and all other kindsa garbage, fishing lines, plastic bottles disposable diapers and all the other trash we haul out into or throw into the sea, as it seems to be our own private garbage receptacle. Until you have rescued other living critters that are dying from this crap, dont believe that we arent doing harm to our planet, we might not be able to kill the planet, but we sure as hell can make it pretty unlivable for all us critters.......


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## rockbot (Sep 29, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  andy volkerts
> 
> [8D]  I fear the results of pollution by all our discarded garbage ruining the oceans more that anything else.


 
 Same here Andy. We have a beach on the south eastern coast of my Island that accumulates trash from all over the pacific ocean. We have beach clean ups and  the amount of trash unbelievable. Hundreds of tons of trash, mostly plastic containers, discarded fishing nets, syringes etc. Sick! A lot of the stuff has asian writings on them. The foreign fishing ships and European cruise ships dump all their trash in our oceans and the stuff washes ashore.


 Back in the 70's my Dad would take us there to find glass fishing floats. Most of the debris back then was glass and wood floats and some netting material.


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## rockbot (Sep 29, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  blobbottlebob
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I've expressed this before too. I work directly with scientists, astronomers and meteorologists. The majority of them debunk climate change by human activity.
 The whole concept is quite flawed. The more Co2 available the faster plant life grows and in return they absorb even more Co2. In fact when Co2 is increased in a green house, plants grow way faster. Ask all the indoor pot growers.[]

 Our earth began as a ball of dust and gas two billion years ago and look at us now! of coarse climate changes. We see seasonal changes every year. Cycles in 10, 100, million year intervals.

 Pollution on the other hand is a major problem![]


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## bostaurus (Sep 29, 2011)

Unfortunately science has become very political...not that it wasn't in the past too..Galileo comes to mind.  Different research or ideas are championed or picked up by the media and they become "the science" and dissenters are scoffed at or shouted down. Many researchers will toe the line because to publicly disagree is to face a backlash and even loss of your position.   Research works when there are differing ideas or theories and then folks set out to prove or disprove.  Actual trends have not been fitting the global warming theories.  So rather than circling the wagons to protect the "science" and the industries it has spawned  the science needs further study and work.  The science in the 70's told us we would all be in a new ice age by now, the holes in the ozone a the poles would not be all the way down to the Canadian/US border,  and recently a good percent of the world was supposed to contract and die of Bird Flu.  Maybe if media outlets would actually interview scientists that are not beholden to a strict ideology (right or left), a member of some advocacy group, or funded by an interested industry, such as oil or solar, then we might get a better feel for what is going on...of course the TV ratings would drop.  We all love a good disaster story.
 Sure we need to work on getting pollution under some sort of control but we don't need scientific hysteria.


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## ajohn (Sep 29, 2011)

HMMMMMM.....
   This discussion has got to be one of the most interesting I've read in a long time.
 Absolutely worth the reading.The way some of you expressed your passions was poetic and admirable,whether I agreed with them or not.
   My little 'ol 53 years on this planet does not stack up very high next to the history of mankind,let alone the history of this planet.I am humbled by that truth because it has forged into me the idea that alone I am nothing.I have learned this truth through living it.
  It is only when I attached myself to the rest of humanity did I become part of something.I now understand that I am no different than you,that the creator has given us all the fundamental ideas of right and wrong.Only when I entertain my ego can I not tune into that spirit,and that is when I become a selfish fearful human with the Idea that life owes me something.I stop contributing to mankind and begin to use up valuable resources,both spiritual and physical.
   Understanding why something has happened is important,but only to the extent that it does not take away from the fact that something IS happening.
  I've turned off the media and it's influences because it seems that the ones with the most money are the ones that seem to make the most confusing noise.
  I don't know what tomorrow will bring or what effect that it will have on my life.
 I only know that I have today to live with purpose.and choice,knowing that I may not effect the world as a whole, but that I will definitely effect the world around me.


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## carobran (Sep 29, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
> 
> Wow. That's a lot to take in.
> 
> ...


 _yeah whellah................shame on him for being  PATRIOTIC!!![:'(][>:][8|][8|]      STEVE/SEWELL FOR PRESIDENT^^^^!!!!!!![sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]_


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## carobran (Sep 29, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Steve/sewell
> 
> Conner,and the rest of you
> I view the environment as a two edged sword.I have an Uncle Bill who worked at DuPont and CIBA Geigy for over 40 years.Uncle Bill suffers from the beginning stages of  Mesothelioma.He is not bitter about it and he does not blame DuPont or CIBA Geigy for giving him this terrible disease as his view is as follows.What would he have done differently or where he have worked at that would have paid the kind of money he made working at DuPont.He would not have been able to send all 4 of my cousins through college without the high paying job he attained at both companies.
> ...


 i might just have to print this out and hang it on my wall^^^^^^[][][][][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 29, 2011)

Conner I respect your position honestly,
 I am just tired of watching all the industry down here get shut down completely or be running at a ghost of itself.
 Sunoco refinery 500 employees gone shut down out of business,DuPont Gibbstown New Jersey closed gone ghost town,400 jobs gone,Mobil Exon Paulsboro 1500 employees gone DuPont Chamber works Pennsville New Jersey maybe 300 employees left out of 2000 a shift in the mid 80s.The list goes on and on all of these businesses were forced out of business by over regulation all of these good paying jobs lost forever.

 Would all of you here at this forum give up your PCs, your cars,all the amenities of life because pollution was created in the making process.Most of you wouldn't and you know it!! Look I have NEVER littered in my life and I think heffty fines should be paid for illegal dumping and polluting.But on the other hand CO2 emissions coming from my work vehicle and my private automobiles are a nessasary item of evil for myself my families and all of your families needs to survive  today.We cant all take public transportation to work.We cant all ride bikes to work either because some of us enjoy being safe in our cars,bikes are not safe anymore.Lastly we all cant have Government based jobs because then we would be taxing the government to help out private industry.That seems bass akward to me.

 Conner if you think I am an evil F_ck Yeah American incapable of reasoning and compassion or open to suggestions its simply not true,the global climate science is severely flawed.I have researched a lot of different sources and have formed an opinion based on these findings.As for my own life Here is a Look at what I did monetarily personally and corporately last year.I just checked my company and personal check accounts and here is what I  gave monetarily.

 American Heart association 500.00
 Cancer Research 500.00
 United Way 500.00
 Habitat for Humanity 500.00
 Local PBA 500.00
 Breast Cancer 500.00
 Youth Sports donations from my company 1000.00
 Jerry Lewis telethon 500.00
 SPCA 300.00

 Sierra Club (I love the Shenandoah Valley and National Park) 200.00 Thats 5000.00 from myself and my wife that we didn't have to give away but felt compelled to do so.I am not wealthy and have struggled at times to pay the tuition costs of my childrens Catholic Education.
 Will help anyone with any problem all you have to do is ask.

 I have jump started more cars for total strangers then Triple AAA last year,Spent hours in parking lots getting peoples keys out of their locked cars.
 Stopped my car and  carried turtles off the middle of the road to the safety of the other side.Fished a woman's keys out of an elevator shaft who was panicking that she wouldn't be home on time to greet her kindergarten child off the bus,I ended up being very late for my next job and got reamed big time for it by the customer and ate a lot of crow because of it.Talked one person out of suicide one of the most rewarding things I ever did.It back fired though as the man ended up killing someone else.......Just kiddin about that part[8D]......... but I really did stop him from committing suicide.

 I have given tons of New not used Clothing to the Salvation Army.Donated bunches of canned Soup and other goods for food drives,Boy scouts Girl Scouts you name it supported them all and will continue to do so tll the day I die!!

 Plus numerous donations to private causes including this forum and some of the forum members here.
  I am not bragging,I am just motivated and p i s s e d off to no end about our great countries imminent demise.


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## carobran (Sep 29, 2011)

this has to be one of my favorite political threads.....................global warming & gun control...................my two favorite topics[sm=lol.gif]................P.S. i cant wait for your next rant^^^[]


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## ajohn (Sep 29, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> 
> My advice......Stop being a bunch of mamby pambys, man up,, become self sufficient, stop sucking the governments teets, Love your God ,Love your family,help others less fortunate then you, be the answer and the solution,stay passionate be bold, speak out,call a spade a spade,walk and talk quietly but carry a big stick and know when its time to use it.


  Good advice Steve!
 Now how do we get the message across that everyone is born with a stick.


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## carobran (Sep 29, 2011)

hit 'em in the head with one[8|]................hehehe[sm=lol.gif]


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 30, 2011)

I owe Peejrey a bottle or two Chuck ,I need his address.He,s a good sport. Conner I admire you also and I know you are sincere about your beliefs don't get frustrated with me I enjoy a good debate. Your a true asset here at this place and stay that way. One last item Conner you said the following ( But I ask you to consider: what if the scientists are right? Are you all  too selfish to care about what our planet will look like in 100 years,  because you'll be dead? I know I was hoping to stay on this planet for a  good long time, but at the rate we're screwing it up, who knows what  will happen.)                                             			 			 								 			 			  this is very prophetic and makes me pause for a second seriously and rethink my position and that is why debate is healthy....... You do need to add two phonetically small words in your above statement.  ( But I ask you to consider: what if     SOME OF     the scientists are right? Are you all  too selfish to care about what our planet will look like in 100 years,  because you'll be dead? I know I was hoping to stay on this planet for a  good long time, but at the rate we're screwing it up, who knows what  will happen.) Key words (some of) not (the scientists) meaning all of them.[]


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## surfaceone (Sep 30, 2011)

Hey Steve,

 I was taking a walk with my grandfather forty some years ago along the main drag downtown. The EPA had just been created and there was already a bunch of hullabaloo. He was saying, and he had the long view, as he was born in the 80's, that we had no idea what air pollution was all about.

 He walked up to one of the walls of the office buildings that we were passing. It had a blackened sandstone facade. He rubbed his index finger down about 2 feet of stone, and said, "See this?"

 His finger had a little dust on it, soot maybe. Not much at all. He said that when he was a lad, that finger would have been *"Black!"* He said that he could put on a white shirt, and at the end of the day it would be grey or worse.

 He said he loved air pollution, because it meant that all the mills and factories were working. The city was humming, and that was what he liked.

 I've never forgotten that talk.


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## div2roty (Sep 30, 2011)

"97â€“98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of anthropogenic climate change"

 So by some, you all must mean 97-98%.  

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.abstract

 As for the 3 percent of scientists who remain unconvinced, the study found their average expertise is far below that of their colleagues, as measured by publication and citation rates.

 The study also basically says that not all scientists are considered equal.  Are they performing orignal research, getting published in peer reviewed journals, etc?

 Just because someone has a BS in a science related field, doesn't exactly qualify them as an expert.  

 Also blaming the lack of manufactoring jobs in the US on environmental protection laws is like saying some is fat because they eat an icecream cone once a week.  While the icecream is not helping, the person is fat because of what they eat the rest of the week, their lack of exercise, and probably some genetic factors.

 The US has lost those jobs for many reasons, including several big reasons far more important than a few environmental laws.  We engage in "free trade" which is great for our businesses because they can easily import items, however most of the nations we trade with are not being free on their end.  Just because they don't directly tax our goods going into their countries doesn't mean its free trade.  China artificially undervalues its currency, making it cheaper for us to buy their goods, but harder for them to import.  Thats not true free trade.  Lots of other nations don't protect workers the way we do.  The do not have minimum wages, limits on work hours, and they often use force to exploit there workers.  How is that free, when those workers work for $2 a day and live in small buildings smaller than our garages, without running water, and often not enough food to eat.  Of course Nike, and others can get items made oversees for cheaper.  

 Its only free trade if both countries don't tax each others imports, but also if they are playing on the same level field.  

 Historically some of our manufactoring businesses have been terrible at reinvesting in their companies.  Look at Steel Production.  Sure China produces more, but so does Japan and Germany, both of which have high standards of living, environmental laws, and minimum wages.  Those nations steel production reinvested with better equipment and can now produce steel cheaper.  The car companies are another good example.

 Our country also allows states to compete with each other.  Have you ever heard of a company moving into your state because the state is financing their move, giving them tax breaks, or giving  them land for free or really cheap?  Basically every state does this, and the companies are playing states off of each other.  Often there is not a longterm contract making the company stay either, and then in a few years the company can move to another state providing a better deal.  The US needs a more comprehensive plan that makes the US competetive worldwide, not competition between the states.


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## bostaurus (Sep 30, 2011)

> His finger had a little dust on it, soot maybe. Not much at all. He said that when he was a lad, that finger would have been "Black!" He said that he could put on a white shirt, and at the end of the day it would be grey or worse.


 As a kid in the late 60's I remember London being a much darker, really blacker, place than it is now.  The buildings, sidewalks, and monuments all had a covering of coal soot.  Even the air had that slight oily tang of burning coal.  Things have changed a lot now....less coal burned in homes, cleaner industry burning, etc.
 When I took the kids to a museum on the harbor in Baltimore they talked about how polluted the harbor was in the 1800's.  All sewers dumped directly into the harbor, the large number of canneries and other industries lining the harbor dumped every bit and piece they didn't use into the harbor, the thousands of sailing ships that came into the harbor dumped their trash and sewage directly into the water.....and we tend to forget about the thousands of horses used to pull wagons and provide transportation...that is tons of manure and urine that washed into the water every day.
 We live and learn.


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 30, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 We still have a huge way to go. From up on the hill here, I can see the NYC skyline... Or can I? On hot days, the whole city is cloaked in huge swathes of fog. The haze makes it hard to see anything. And occasionally, pollution will even waft over here. I remember one time, there was this horrible mysterious smell. Dozens of people called 911, because no one knew what it was. Turns out, a weird wind pattern blew the NYC smog over here... 

 As an interesting bottle related note, I'm sure some people on the East coast have heard of Dead Horse Bay. The place is amazing, and horrifying. From the 1800's to 1954, every iota of NYC's household trash was dumped into the bay there. They then tried to cap it with clay, 10 feet thick. The trash buildup was so great, the cap burst. Now, millions of bottles and other assuredly toxic garbage is leaking out into the bay, destroying the ecosystem. It's scary to think what we can do as a people to the earth.


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## carobran (Sep 30, 2011)

we dont know what smog is down here[8|]..............so............HA-HA-HAHA[:-][:-][:-][:-]


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## bostaurus (Sep 30, 2011)

Dad was stationed in Long Beach and San Diego during the mid to late 60's.  We played outdoors a lot!  Some nights I would come in and it would be hard to breath deep, my lungs would hurt so bad.  I was too young to know much about smog.


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## andy volkerts (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINal
> 
> "97â€“98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of anthropogenic climate change"
> 
> ...


 [] Well said!! and accurate too!!


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## rockbot (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  div2roty
> 
> "97â€“98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of anthropogenic climate change"
> 
> ...


 
 While I agree with you on economic policy I have to disagree with you on climate change experts.

 There was a time in this world when people would go to college to study, practice and get degrees in the hard sciences like physics, astrophysics, chemical and nuclear engineering, and microbiology, genetics and biomedical sciences.

 Today there are climate change experts. A product of the "dumbing down of society" that started in our liberal institutions of learning, back in the 1960's.

 Their manipulation of science through epistemology and metaphysics spawned such experts in climate change.

 There is no level of degree that produces experts in anything. Just that term alone is proof of fallacy.

 So by " Proof of Assertion" your 97-98% of climate change experts are united.


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## bostaurus (Oct 1, 2011)

Nobel prize winner for physics in 1973 Dr. Ivar Giaever resigned as a Fellow from the American Physical Society (APS) on September 13, 2011 in disgust over the group's promotion of man-made global warming fears. Climate Depot has obtained the exclusive email Giaever sent titled "I resign from APS" to APS Executive Officer Kate Kirby to announce his formal resignation.

 Dr. Giaever wrote to Kirby of APS: â€œThank you for your letter inquiring about my membership. I did not renew it because I cannot live with the (APS) statement below (on global warming): APS: 'The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth's physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.'

 Giaever announced his resignation from APS was due to the group's belief in man-made global warming fears. Giaever explained in his email to APS: "In the APS it is ok to discuss whether the mass of the proton changes over time and how a multi-universe behaves, but the evidence of global warming is incontrovertible? The claim (how can you measure the average temperature of the whole earth for a whole year?) is that the temperature has changed from ~288.0 to ~288.8 degree Kelvin in about 150 years, which (if true) means to me is that the temperature has been amazingly stable, and both human health and happiness have definitely improved in this 'warming' period."

 Giaever was one of President Obama's key scientific supporters in 2008. Giaever joined over 70 Nobel Science Laureates in endorse Obama in an October 29, 2008 open letter. In addition to Giaever, other prominent scientists have resigned from APS over its stance on man-made global warming. See: Prominent Physicist Hal Lewis Resigns from APS: 'Climategate was a fraud on a scale I have never seen...Effect on APS position: None. None at all. This is not science'

 Giaever, a former professor at the School of Engineering and School of Science Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, has become a vocal dissenter from the alleged â€œconsensusâ€ regarding man-made climate fears. He was featured prominently in the 2009 U.S. Senate Report of (then) Over 700 Dissenting International Scientists from Man-made global warming. Giaever, who is a member of the National Academy of Sciences and won the 1973 Nobel Prize for Physics.

 Giaever was also one of more than 100 co-signers in a March 30, 2009 letter to President Obama that was critical of his stance on global warming. See: More than 100 scientists rebuke Obama as 'simply incorrect' on global warming: 'We, the undersigned scientists, maintain that the case for alarm regarding climate change is grossly overstated'

 Giaever is featured on page 89 of the 321 page of Climate Depot's more than 1000 dissenting scientist report (updated from U.S. Senate Report). Dr. Giaever was quoted declaring himself a man-made global warming dissenter. â€œI am a skeptic...Global warming has become a new religion,â€ Giaever declared. â€œI am Norwegian, should I really worry about a little bit of warming? I am unfortunately becoming an old man. We have heard many similar warnings about the acid rain 30 years ago and the ozone hole 10 years ago or deforestation but the humanity is still around,â€ Giaever explained. â€œGlobal warming has become a new religion. We frequently hear about the number of scientists who support it. But the number is not important: only whether they are correct is important. We don't really know what the actual effect on the global temperature is. There are better ways to spend the money,â€ he concluded.

 Giaever also told the New York Times in 2010 that global warming â€œcan't be discussed -- just like religion...there is NO unusual rise in the ocean level, so what where and what is the big problem?â€

 This is not the first climate induced headache for the American Physical Society. It's strict adherence to man-made global warming beliefs has created a stir in the scientific community and let to an open revolt of its scientific members.

 On May 1, 2009, the American Physical Society (APS) Council decided to review its current climate statement via a high-level subcommittee of respected senior scientists. The decision was prompted after a group of over 80 prominent physicists petitioned the APS revise its global warming position and more than 250 scientists urged a change in the group's climate statement in 2010. The physicists wrote to APS governing board: â€œMeasured or reconstructed temperature records indicate that 20th - 21st century changes are neither exceptional nor persistent, and the historical and geological records show many periods warmer than today.â€ An American Physical Society editor conceded that a â€œconsiderable presenceâ€ of scientific skeptics exists.

 In October 2010, the APS suffered more scientific woes when another one of its prominent physicists resigned. The late Physicist Hal Lewis, who died in May of 2011, excoriated the APS leadership for its strict dogmatic like adherence to man-made global warming beliefs.


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> â€œI am a skeptic...Global warming has become a new religion,â€ Giaever declared. â€œI am Norwegian, should I really worry about a little bit of warming? I am unfortunately becoming an old man. We have heard many similar warnings about the acid rain 30 years ago and the ozone hole 10 years ago or deforestation but the humanity is still around,â€ Giaever explained.


 
 This quote illustrates the reason most skeptics can't be taken seriously. He completely misinterprets the premise of global warming. Global warming will NOT have immediate consequences; it is the long term effects that have seriously mess up the earth. And he's saying deforestation and acid rain haven't had any serious effects? That's just laughable. Try the highest species extinction rate in the earth's history, and untold disruption of ecosystems by increasing pH in aquatic ecosystems!

 And another thing: this guy is a physicist! He has no expertise in the field of climatology. When you have no knowledge in a particular field of study, the best thing to do is defer to the opinion of true experts. Apparently 98% of experts agree that global warming is a serious threat. Who are you going to believe, the experts, or a couple of dissenters who don't even study climatology?


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## bostaurus (Oct 1, 2011)

> And another thing: this guy is a physicist! He has no expertise in the field of climatology. When you have no knowledge in a particular field of study, the best thing to do is defer to the opinion of true experts. Apparently 98% of experts agree that global warming is a serious threat. Who are you going to believe, the experts, or a couple of dissenters who don't even study climatology?


 I think if you looked at all the opinions, pro and con, out there most of the folks are not climatologists.  I mean what degree must one have to be an expert climatologist?  There can't be a whole lot of them out there and every science discipline these days relies on the other disciplines.  
 I think most of us would agree that we need to find better, less polluting ways to do things.  What is rubbing folks the wrong way is the way policy is made on an issue that is based in a large portion on mathematical models that many scientists will agree are not as accurate as they could be.   Climate models are not proof.


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The key here is that the true experts, the climatologists, etc. who study global climate for a living, are overwhelmingly in agreement that global warming is occurring. A physicist, no matter how well respected he is, is not going to understand global climate processes. You're not going to go to an electrician if you want to get your plumbing fixed.

"A new poll among 3,146 earth scientists found that 90 percent believe global warming is real, while 82 percent agree that human activity been a significant factor in changing mean global temperatures. 

 The survey, conducted among researchers listed in the American Geological Institute's Directory of Geoscience Departments*, "found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role". The biggest doubters were petroleum geologists (47 percent) and meteorologists (64 percent). A recent poll suggests that 58 percent of Americans believe that human activity contributes to climate change...

 ...Doran said wide support among climatologists does not come as a surprise. 

 'They're the ones who study and publish on climate science. So I guess the take-home message is, the more you know about the field of climate science, the more you're likely to believe in global warming and humankind's contribution to it.'

 Writing in the publication _Eos, Transactions, American Geophysical Union_, Doran and Zimmerman conclude, 'the debate on the authenticity of global warming and the role played by human activity is largely nonexistent among those who understand the nuances and scientific basis of long-term climate processes.' "​ 
From.


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## rockbot (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 dump. []


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## rockbot (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Wheelah23
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  These "EXPERTS" must have a time machine. They can travel into the future and return to tell us what the climate will be like.
 Boy, I wonder if they can tell me who will win the superbowl next year. I mean well since they can look at past weather data and events and tell the future
 picking a football game should be easy. and while their at it can they tell me what stocks to invest in next year. Oh maybe they, can lets see, solar panels and windmills.

 Let me tell all you climate mime's this. Why don't we stop the world from dumping garbage in our oceans and streams first then we can worry about adjusted
 gas levels in our atmosphere.


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## JOETHECROW (Oct 1, 2011)

Old Farmer's Almanac , they seem to be the only folks who can accurately call future weather predictions...Just got the 2012 edition,...(Have them back to 1986, when I started saving them.)[]


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## cyberdigger (Oct 1, 2011)

...tonight's forecast:  ..dark......

 []


 I love those old almanacks Joe! []


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## epackage (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> ...tonight's forecast:  ..dark......
> 
> []


 Followed by a chance of morning...[]


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## cyberdigger (Oct 1, 2011)

George was da man!!!


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## rockbot (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  JOETHECROW
> 
> Old Farmer's AlmanacÂ , they seem to be the only folks who can accurately callÂ future weather predictions...Just got the 2012 edition,...(Have them back to 1986, when I started saving them.)[]


 
 Very accurate too by the way. We follow that and the Hawaiian moon calendar for decades on our farm for planting and fishing. The Hawaiian moon calendar 
 is unbelievably accurate and has been in use for over 1000 years.[]


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## Steve/sewell (Oct 1, 2011)

Well said Rock, Andy, Matt, Conner read this  http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2009/11/30/penn-state-will-investigate-climategate
 Here is your leader of the movement,Michael E Mann a total  idiot who manipulated tons of data selfishly to bring global manufacturing to a complete halt and spread the doomsday fear to the less educated sheep of the world. Remember the hockey stick graph proudly proclaimed by Al Gore father of the Internet.The anthropogenic climate change movement hold no water.The 97 to 98 percent you claim is just a liberal think tanks answer to the equation. Here read some more it is all a hoax,   http://americaswatchtower.com/2010/02/14/climategate-phil-jones-admits-global-warming-ended-in-1995/
  As for business models States do need to compete with each other for companies to locate and may the best state win.This is Capitalism at its finest and how a free market system should work.If state A offers less then state B the business should be able to locate to state B The same way when you buy the antiques for your store you want to get the most for your dollar as the bottom line is the bottom line.Why would you buy goods through a state packed with regulation.States need zero help from the federal government to operate efficiently.The fat guy with the ice cream cone analogy is not very good as I view the federal government only offering the fat guy Ice cream A la carte through their not so friendly business menu.Yes the trade agreements have hurt tremendously also I don't deny that.I am not for garbage in the ocean,urine in the lakes and oceans,or any form of illegal dumping. I am for coal burning plants,Nuclear plants and manufacturing at home it is what made this country great and what will return it to its greatness if the Feds would allow it to.


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## nydigger (Oct 2, 2011)

Ha...Global warming tell that to my uncle in columbia, sc where they actually had measurable snow  this past winter. This earth goes through cycles. Grant it we may have a hand in it but the earth is ultimatly in control not us. We do have to watch what we do but its not just us. What about the rest of the world who doesn't give a sh*t. we are so few trying to do so much. we have come such a long way that most industry we can do it it with little or no environmental impact. but as soon as some one tries to build something for production or manufacturing the environmentalists sue to stop it. Judges buy it and halt the progress and job creation cuz the lobbiests say vote or decide this way or you wont get our vote. this whole environmental thing has gone from a noble cause to a political ralling cry to further peoples ideology. what is this whole thing coming to when people want to inject socialist and marxist ideas and policies into our society. We need to wake the F**k up. we need to put this nation right again. the current administration liberal and conservatives alike are not cutting it. we have people that want to force us to do things because they know better than i about my health and habits than i do and you have others that have no balls to stand up and make a change


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Well said Rock, Andy, Matt, Conner read thisÂ  http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2009/11/30/penn-state-will-investigate-climategate
> Here is your leader of the movement,Michael E Mann a totalÂ  idiot who manipulated tons of data selfishly to bring global manufacturing to a complete halt and spread the doomsday fear to the less educated sheep of the world. Remember the hockey stick graph proudly proclaimed by Al Gore father of the Internet.The anthropogenic climate change movement hold no water.The 97 to 98 percent you claim is just a liberal think tanks answer to the equation. Here read some more it is all a hoax,Â Â  http://americaswatchtower.com/2010/02/14/climategate-phil-jones-admits-global-warming-ended-in-1995/
> As for business models States do need to compete with each other for companies to locate and may the best state win.This is Capitalism at its finest and how a free market system should work.If state A offers less then state B the business should be able to locate to state B The same way when you buy the antiques for your store you want to get the most for your dollar as the bottom line is the bottom line.Why would you buy goods through a state packed with regulation.States need zero help from the federal government to operate efficiently.The fat guy with the ice cream cone analogy is not very good as I view the federal government only offering the fat guy Ice cream A la carte through their not so friendly business menu.Yes the trade agreements have hurt tremendously also I don't deny that.I am not for garbage in the ocean,urine in the lakes and oceans,or any form of illegal dumping. I am for coal burning plants,Nuclear plants and manufacturing at home it is what made this country great and what will return it to its greatness if the Feds would allow it to.


 
 The first article you posted is incredibly vague. What data was misrepresented? This "scandal" seems nothing in the face of such an overwhelming consensus of most scientists. Just a little fish in the ocean that is proof of global warming.

 As for the second article you posted... Here's the author's description of himself. I for one am not going to take seriously someone who goes by the moniker "America's Watchtower".

 "When the sun goes down and the boys are asleep I turn into the person that you read here. Something comes over me and my passion for politics overtakes me. I canâ€™t help it, I canâ€™t help myself. I become the Patriotic Dissenter, a part of the loyal opposition, and proud member of the Conservative Resistance. And now according to Homeland Security I am a right wing extremist and potential domestic terrorist."

 In reference to your overblown climategate "scandal", if you can call it that, here's what I found glaring right out at me from the wikipedia page about it... "Six committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct."


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> ...tonight's forecast:  ..dark......
> 
> ...


 
 LOL  I just looked out the window to make sure

 We are done,this planet  is so fu$%^7ed up from us polluting EVERYTHING the weather is going bonkers!  that's a fact. No need to try and figure it
 out,you can talk or type until your blue in the face,the more we dump and pollute  the more we pay the piper.
   lets build an ark and get one of those track machine Joe ran because we are going to need them to get to the store for milk and bread.


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 i better go get some blood pressure medicine.............._cause me's gettin' mad[8|][][][>:][:'(]_


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## rockbot (Oct 2, 2011)

Don't get mad carobran. 

 To prove a good theory one has to accept it being disproved first. That is the nature of science. If we just all agree and there is no debate then we are in trouble.

 After all, even Einstein's theory has never made it to a law of physics yet.

 Peace to all!


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: RICKJJ59W
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 _HUH!!................excuse me while i laugh[8|][:'(][:'(][:'(]............_and the weather is perfectly normal around here.............the sun comes up in the morning.........it goes down at night........we get some rain every now and then..............winter comes and it gets cold..........summer comes and it gets hot...............its done so for several thousand years and will continue to do so..............its not that hard to understand[8|][8|][8|][8|]


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## Steve/sewell (Oct 2, 2011)

Conner,
  All I can say is keep on believing we are killing the planet,and when your in your golden years sitting with your Grand Kids in an open field or if you are one of the very fortunate ones a Government sponsored grass hut ( that is all you will be able to afford) naked as a Jay bird as any form of manufacturing is bad for Mommy earth and lets face it clothes are manufactured and manufacturing is an evil earth hurt-er so clothes will no longer be available. So there you are naked, everyone's naked looking like the Geico cave men talking about how stupid people were up until 2040 when everything that humans did up to that point was ended forever and a newer cleaner earth was born and people were no longer needed to inhabit it as they almost destroyed it the first time so humans are now banned from it,but wait how could you be sitting with your grand kids if humans were banned?
 Perplexing isn't it

 You will have to explain to them what it was like to drive a car and why they can no longer drive cars,what is was like to start a fire and snuggle up with your wife or girlfriend in front of that fire,there will be no more fireplaces allowed in open fields,What it was like to own your own business instead of the state owning everything. What it was like to wear sneakers,shoes,clothing everything that is manufactured.What it was like to live in an air conditioned and heated home.What it was like to be able to move about in Air Planes and Jets and be on the other side of our great country in less then two hours.What it was like to go to school and learn about the past.What a computer was as they will be gone in your Eco-clean world you envision as they produce quite a bit of pollution when they are manufactured and would be one of the first items banned.Self worth will be gone as there will be no reason to get up anymore for there will be nothing to do.NO malls,No sporting events or Concerts,No movies TV forget it.Yes Conner you will get up everyday with absolutely nothing to do that sounds like a great time doesn't it.

 Are you really ready to give up all of your amenities you have as about 99 percent of them require some sort of manufacturing that has some form of pollution or by product with it you disapprove of.

 Instead of focusing on how you are going to save the planet ( it doesnt need Conner to save it,it was doing quite fine before you ever arrived here and will continue to do so with or without you ) focus on how you can contribute to mankind by providing jobs and self worth to people again.Be an innovator not an obstructionist to business.When you have finished school in the near future don't you desire to work somewhere? If you ban almost everything for the sake of a clean planet ( I am being serious here what the h e l l are we supposed to everyday?)

 Conner my advice to you  MAN UP get yourself in good fist fight,yes you heard me FIST FIGHT go kick someones A S S. I love your passion for 
 bottles it is great but it is time to stop hugging the trees and start hugging girls  they are much more enjoyable [] Go buy yourself a gas guzzling 80s muscle car instead of some p_ssy whiped hybrid piece of crap they are much more fun to drive.Your missing out on life boy, worrying about saving this planet.Stop and think if God intended for you to save the planet wouldn't he have sent you a personal letter by now? I am being serious here you are 
 p i s s i n g away the best years of your life worrying about something you have ( and you will hate me again for saying this) ZERO to able to impact with your actions.Go start living your life and give up this Left wing Commie crapola you have been told is Gospel.Your Grand kids you envision saving the planet for one day will be much prouder of a Grand Dad who had the largest late 1800s Soda bottle collection in the world a well tarveled man who owned his own business,and provided some sort of gainfull employment and self worth for others.A man who invented a solar and lunar panel to produce endless amounts of electricity.That's the kind of Grand Dad they would be proud of not some skinny,naked old man with nothing to talk because he was scared to do anything that might hurt mother earth......[]


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

_i.........i think im gonna cry[][]..^^^^( i just hope Conner doesnt[8|][])..........have you ever considered writing a book???.........ok.......that^^^^^was mean[8|]_


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## andy volkerts (Oct 2, 2011)

[8D]80s muscle car??? what crap!!  the only muscle cars built that worth a flyin fu-- were built in the 60s and first part of the 70s. I owned a 1963 chevrolet impala SS with a 409 engine with two four barrel carbs and a five speed gearbox with a posi traction rear end, aluminum hood and front end, only about 30 were made. They would do 12 seconds in the quarter mile stock from the factory with 8 inch wide tires onna back. THAT was American engineering and innovation. You can still watch one run on you tube, when he can get the aviation gas to run it. That car got 9 miles to the gallon, I loved it but thank god I was one of those lucky 30 people to have once owned one, cause if we all had had one we wouldnt be able to breath from all the pollution. Keep on beatin em onna head Connor, somebodies gotta do it or we will all die of the garbage and pollution burying us all .......


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 The END OF DAYS are here my son
  Your going to need your "winter" coat this summer and your shorts in the winter.


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  andy volkerts
> 
> [8D]80s muscle car??? what crap!!  the only muscle cars built that worth a flyin fu-- were built in the 60s and first part of the 70s. I owned a 1963 chevrolet impala SS with a 409 engine with two four barrel carbs and a five speed gearbox with a posi traction rear end, aluminum hood and front end, only about 30 were made. They would do 12 seconds in the quarter mile stock from the factory with 8 inch wide tires onna back. THAT was American engineering and innovation. You can still watch one run on you tube, when he can get the aviation gas to run it. That car got 9 miles to the gallon, I loved it but thank god I was one of those lucky 30 people to have once owned one, cause if we all had had one we wouldnt be able to breath from all the pollution. Keep on beatin em onna head Connor, somebodies gotta do it or we will all die of the garbage and pollution burying us all .......


 
 Blue  69 Chevy  chevelle SS  396 4 on the floor. I torn up the world with that car []
    mine had L 50s on the back. I have to find a pic of that car,I know I have one somewhere. 
   My hair was a lot longer then the driver in this car [8D] I was 18 when I had it.


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## Poison_Us (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> ...tonight's forecast:  ..dark......
> 
> ...


 


 "...Continued mostly dark tonight, with scattered light in the morning."

 The Hippie Dippy Weather Man!


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Conner,
> All I can say is keep on believing we are killing the planet,and when your in your golden years sitting with your Grand Kids in an open field or if you are one of the very fortunate ones a Government sponsored grass hut ( that is all you will be able to afford) naked as a Jay bird as any form of manufacturing is bad for Mommy earth and lets face it clothes are manufactured and manufacturing is an evil earth hurt-er so clothes will no longer be available. So there you are naked, everyone's naked looking like the Geico cave men talking about how stupid people were up until 2040 when everything that humans did up to that point was ended forever and a newer cleaner earth was born and people were no longer needed to inhabit it as they almost destroyed it the first time so humans are now banned from it,but wait how could you be sitting with your grand kids if humans were banned?
> ...


 
 Certainly an interesting vision. How likely is this, though? I can't help but chuckle when I read this. And you say global warming is a crackpot theory... []

 I'm not dedicating my life to "saving the planet". I just feel like posting my views on the subject when I'm bored. Obviously I don't want manufacture to be stopped; only regulated. We can manufacture at a huge rate still, with renewable energy sources, if we just devote our efforts to using them rather than fossil fuels. We'll run out of 'em eventually, what then? Not only are they non renewable, but they are screwing up the atmosphere... But you're turning a deaf ear to this. 

 I know this will alienate some of you, but I can't say I believe in God. Why would a "kind" or "merciful" protector allow rampant poverty and destruction to go on every day? Seems awfully hypocritical. I believe we are all that exists, there is no grand vision of life after death. As such, we should make the most of what we've got while we can. But we have to be considerate of people in the future, who will have to go through the same thing. Would this "God" want you to destroy the planet so that future generations can't live here? I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, Hell, we're already got a good debate going! []


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Wheelah23


 
 Certainly an interesting vision. How likely is this, though? I can't help but chuckle when I read this. And you say global warming is a crackpot theory... []

 I'm not dedicating my life to "saving the planet". I just feel like posting my views on the subject when I'm bored. Obviously I don't want manufacture to be stopped; only regulated. We can manufacture at a huge rate still, with renewable energy sources, if we just devote our efforts to using them rather than fossil fuels. We'll run out of 'em eventually, what then? Not only are they non renewable, but they are screwing up the atmosphere... But you're turning a deaf ear to this. 

 I know this will alienate some of you, but I can't say I believe in God. Why would a "kind" or "merciful" protector allow rampant poverty and destruction to go on every day? Seems awfully hypocritical. I believe we are all that exists, there is no grand vision of life after death. As such, we should make the most of what we've got while we can. But we have to be considerate of people in the future, who will have to go through the same thing. Would this "God" want you to destroy the planet so that future generations can't live here? I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, Hell, we're already got a good debate going! []
 [/quote]


 No God??? how do you expect to get permissions?  He is my main source of permissions.  []


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## bostaurus (Oct 2, 2011)

> I know this will alienate some of you, but I can't say I believe in God. Why would a "kind" or "merciful" protector allow rampant poverty and destruction to go on every day? Seems awfully hypocritical. I believe we are all that exists, there is no grand vision of life after death. As such, we should make the most of what we've got while we can. But we have to be considerate of people in the future, who will have to go through the same thing. Would this "God" want you to destroy the planet so that future generations can't live here? I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, Hell, we're already got a good debate going!


 
 That would be a good debate and one very worth having.  I love to have discussions and debates about God.  Unfortunately those discussions can become extremely heated.  The heat can be hotter in debates between Christians than a debate with an atheist.  I don't take unbelief personally...You put out your best understanding and arguements..it is up to God to make himself known to you through those arguments, events, or what ever else He decides to use,  then it is up to that person to make up his own mind.


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> 
> That would be a good debate and one very worth having.  I love to have discussions and debates about God.  Unfortunately those discussions can become extremely heated.  The heat can be hotter in debates between Christians than a debate with an atheist.  I don't take unbelief personally...You put out your best understanding and arguements..it is up to God to make himself known to you through those arguments, events, or what ever else He decides to use,  then it is up to that person to make up his own mind.


 

 "God helps those who help them selves"  if not suffer you bitches  lol[]


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## RedGinger (Oct 2, 2011)

Wow this thread is kind of all over the place.  Anyway, I went on a moose tour a few years ago, in northern NH.  The woman giving the tour had lived in the small town her whole life.  She said how it had snowed there in July a few times, but that as the years went on that didn't happen again.  This was before the whole global warming debate was popular.  I wonder why this would be? 

 I enjoy theological discussions too, Melinda.  Some of my best friends are religious and it's interesting to get their take on things, ask questions, and talk about why this or that is the way it is. Since they are good friends and mature, we can have interesting discussions without ever disrespecting each other's beliefs or being rude.  I think some members could so it, like you, but I don't think it's possible on here.


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: RICKJJ59W
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 fine with me(even though it wont happen[8|][:-])as long as they switch the hunting seasons[8|]


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
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 _Conner?you didnt drink any of the contents out of a hundred year old bottle lately did you??...........maybe you stay out in the sun too long (WAY TOO LONG FROM WHAY IM HEARING[8|][8|]) while digging those dumps???..........im not sure..........but somethings got your head all turned around(and dont start blaming "pollution"either!![8|][8|]).........[8|][:'(][][:-]_


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## cyberdigger (Oct 2, 2011)

You folks can talk about politics, religion, climate change, abortion, I don't care what.. just be nice about it and remember.. nothing anybody says is ever gonna change anybody else's mind. Now blabber on, gang! []


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## carobran (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: cyberdigger
> 
> You folks can talk about politics, religion, climate change, abortion, I don't care what.. just be nice about it and remember.. nothing anybody says is ever gonna change anybody else's mind. Now blabber on, gang! []


 _me is the king of blabbering...........hehehe[][]................_did you get my pm??.............and theres a thread someone would like deleted in buying and selling in case you havent seen it[]


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## bostaurus (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  RedGinger
> 
> Wow this thread is kind of all over the place.Â  Anyway, I went on a moose tour a few years ago, in northern NH.Â  The woman giving the tour had lived in the small town her whole life.Â  She said how it had snowed there in July a few times, but that as the years went on that didn't happen again.Â  This was before the whole global warming debate was popular.Â  I wonder why this would be?
> 
> I enjoy theological discussions too, Melinda.Â  Some of my best friends are religious and it's interesting to get their take on things, ask questions, and talk about why this or that is the way it is.Â Since they are good friends and mature, we can have interesting discussions without ever disrespecting each other's beliefs or being rude.Â  I think some members could so it, like you, but I don't think it's possible on here.


 I agree.  I think you and I could probably have some great chats.  I am always happy to talk about it and don't get my nose out of joint of someone does not agree.  I don't care for folks getting mad, bringing into questions one's intelligence, or being disrespectful ....Like you say, probably not possible here.


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## cyberdigger (Oct 2, 2011)

Now there's some respectful comments... ...hey wait... [>:]


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 2, 2011)

Are we disrespectfully talking about respecting disrespectful people? Do I have it backwards? My brain hurts now... [X(]


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## bostaurus (Oct 2, 2011)

Backwards...maybe, or maybe not.


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## cyberdigger (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm leaning towards forwards..


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
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 What will you hunt? the animals will be gone to [8D]
  Oh wait! cockroaches might live,you could hunt them,oh wait you will be gone to,they could hunt each other,

 Word*


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## rockbot (Oct 3, 2011)

I'm ready!


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 3, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> I'm ready!


 

 You should be able to hit a cock roach with that[]


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## rockbot (Oct 3, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  RICKJJ59W


 

 You should be able to hit a cock roach with that[] 

 [/quote]

 Not bad for an air gun![]
 check out these pellets too. they can shoot through just about anything.


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## carobran (Oct 3, 2011)

thats what i use to shoot birds with occasionly when squirrel is outta season[8|][]


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## cyberdigger (Oct 3, 2011)

I bet those would leave a nasty welt on the butt of a poacher... []


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## rockbot (Oct 3, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> I bet those would leave a nasty welt on the butt of a poacher... []


 
 No way Charlie, these copper pellets are in 22 cal and they are more deadly then a 22 rifle. I shoot wild hogs with these babies!

 Hey carobran, leave them birdies alone![]


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 3, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
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 Not bad for an air gun![]
 check out these pellets too. they can shoot through just about anything.







 [/quote]


 They remind me a  larger version of the pellets used in the 760 pump gun I used to have as a kid[]


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## JOETHECROW (Oct 3, 2011)

> They remind me a larger version of the pellets used in the 760 pump gun I used to have as a kid


 
 Crosman 760 powermaster baby!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I had a lot of fun with mine growing up...


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## carobran (Oct 3, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: rockbot


 
 No way Charlie, these copper pellets are in 22 cal and they are more deadly then a 22 rifle. I shoot wild hogs with these babies!

 Hey carobran, leave them birdies alone![]


 [/quote] _but then ill have nothing to do from February to October[8|][][]................_ive always wanted to kill a hog[][&o]


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## JOETHECROW (Oct 3, 2011)

> Hey carobran, leave them birdies alone!


 
 Branden!....Tony's right, lots of targets besides birds out there! What, we feed them all year so you can shoot them? [8|] Besides, my brother crows will be watching you ![]


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## carobran (Oct 4, 2011)

i limit myself(sometimes)[]..........i dont kill bluebirds or woodpeckers.................i do take shots at crows sometimes when the squirrels arent moving[]i feed em sometimes too,i only shoot them while their eating if im frustrated and desperate................i dont kill the squirrels around my house either,i like watching them[][][]


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## rockbot (Oct 4, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  carobran
> 
> 
> 
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 _but then ill have nothing to do from February to October[8|][][]................_ive always wanted to kill a hog[][&o]Â 
 [/quote]

 I kill only for food  and occasionally a pest or two on the farm.[]


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 4, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  JOETHECROW
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 Yep that's the one,had a few of them. Remember the seals used to go bad,and the air pressure wouldn't hold.
  I got shot in the leg with one of them bad boys lol not good[]

 I had the gold one to,the cream of the crop.

 opps wrong one[8D]


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## carobran (Oct 4, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: rockbot
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 I kill only for food and occasionally a pest or two on the farm.[]

 [/quote] do they taste like regular pork?how big are the ones you kill?[8|]..........a friend of mines brother killed one that weighed almost 300lbs[][][]


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## nydigger (Oct 4, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  andy volkerts
> 
> [8D]80s muscle car??? what crap!!  the only muscle cars built that worth a flyin fu-- were built in the 60s and first part of the 70s. I owned a 1963 chevrolet impala SS with a 409 engine with two four barrel carbs and a five speed gearbox with a posi traction rear end, aluminum hood and front end, only about 30 were made. They would do 12 seconds in the quarter mile stock from the factory with 8 inch wide tires onna back. THAT was American engineering and innovation. You can still watch one run on you tube, when he can get the aviation gas to run it. That car got 9 miles to the gallon, I loved it but thank god I was one of those lucky 30 people to have once owned one, cause if we all had had one we wouldnt be able to breath from all the pollution. Keep on beatin em onna head Connor, somebodies gotta do it or we will all die of the garbage and pollution burying us all .......


 

 Aviation gas? Omg that car is being robbed of all its horsepower potential. That fuel is designed to run at high altitude at a constant RPM. When I was in High Performance Engine building class when I was in a Tech school in Nashville, TN we had a chassis Dyno. My instructor had a friend he built a naturally assperated  1000 horse monster for his Vega. He religiosly ran aviation gas and was always wondering why it never seemed to be running at its rated horsepower. So he brought it by class on day and the instructor got the local VP Fuels rep. to come by with some fuel samples. He brought 110, 114, and 116. We ran the 110 for a baseline and it put about 875 to the wheels. Then we ran the aviation fuel and it fell on its face. It lost about 75 to 80 horsepower. We ran the 114 and it pulled about 890. Lets say the car didn't like the 116, not enough compression to burn it right. We put the 114 back in tweeked the carb jets and had it humming with 3 consecutive pulls at around 910 to 915 horsepower to the wheels. Lesson learned....av gas is crap for cars. His 1/4 mile times where better too since the fuel burn didn't flat line at higher RPM's


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## Plumbata (Oct 5, 2011)

This debate has surfaced in the past, and albeit stimulating I feel that the focus on greenhouse gas emissions being the cause of climate change is misguided. CO2 is constantly being recycled by the flora of the planet and in time all the excess will be re-sequestered in anerobic strata or peat bogs. As steve indicated, there have been many interesting global climatic shifts in the past 700,000 years; shifts which had nothing to do with human intervention.

 The problems I see are derived from improper use of land and natural resources, which causes changes in microclimates and the genetic variety originally found in such areas. The Dustbowl in the american southwest would likely not have occurred if a large percentage of the arable land was treated with more foresight. The Sahara desert used to be quite a lush region, but has been creeping south along with the nomadic herders who are allowing their livestock to nibble everything green and edible down to the roots. Valuable medicinal plants, such as the Sylphium, have been overharvested and pushed to extinction over the millennia, either directly or through improper use of resources, and now that science is in a position to make use of such valuable things, they no longer exist. There are likely 10s of millions of floral and faunal species on earth, most undescribed, and although the loss of many insect or fungus species would likely not cause any problems for the planet as a whole, over time the losses to the diversity found on this earth will tip the natural scales out-of-balance. Sometimes this is done consciously; the destruction of the Aral Sea by overuse of tributary waters and dumping of chemical-laden effluent, or the introduction of the Nile Perch in Lake Victoria, or accidentally, as in the Asian Carp in American waterways, Kudzu in the south and southeast, the spread of non-native insect and myco-parasites, etc. Us humans are resilient and can _survive_ such events, but can we really_ thrive _ as a species if our world has been polluted and the natural-order unbalanced for millions of years in a matter of several industrious centuries?

 Plain 'ole climate change or global warming, man-made or not, is of little concern to me. The global climate is resilient, and the emissions of industry and "progress" as we now know them are not likely to cause many problems. However, the damages wrought by the utter deforestation and rape of entire ecosystems to make way for oil palm, rubber, banana, and other plantations needed to feed these industries is not something that can be refuted. It is "anthropogenic" loss of global genetic diversity and eco-viability which has me most concerned. Conveniently, this trend is far less contentious than the debate at hand... Inconveniently, most people who do not believe in global warming will likewise not pay attention to the very real fact that the American, or Western manners of economic and material consumption are damaging and unsustainable presently, and that if everyone on the planet lived as us lucky folk do, then yearly industrial output of the irreplacable natural resources required to sustain such a lifestyle would be exhausted in a few months. This is a far more pressing concern than the amount of snow which fell in one's region last winter.


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## andy volkerts (Oct 6, 2011)

You are probably correct, that was just what the guy who owns the car told me. I used to run 76 ethyl in mine, was about 106 octane I was told, I dont even think you can get gas that high in octane today..........


> ORIGINAL:  nydigger
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## Steve/sewell (Oct 6, 2011)

> 80s muscle car??? what crap!! the only muscle cars built that worth a flyin fu-- were built in the 60s and first part of the 70s.


 
 Andy most of those cars are untouchable for most adults let alone a teenagers pocket book.I was referring too the last of the full frame rear wheel drive cars Mustangs,Camaros,Trans Ams,Buick Grand Nationals,Monte Carlo SS of the 80s.My 87 Monte Carlo SS and my 87 Grand National will take apart most muscle cars from the sixtys and seventys.The Monte Carlo has a Crate motor 427,Blower,3 inch pipes,Lowered, Hotchkis racing suspension system.Runs the quarter mile in 12 and a half seconds.This car is soon to be my sons.The Buick Grand National has an upgraded Turbo inter cooler,2 and a half inch pipes.Runs the quarter mile in 12.80 seconds.Each car is very affordable and is still a muscle car by the standards applied...................For the rest of you  witness the power of the sun On Oct 1st.
 .
 This impact just might have been felt and absorbed by some of the populace. http://strictlyhonest.com/amazing-comet-hits-the-sun-solar-flares-as-result/   The resulting solar flares can cause some people to experience equilibrium loss,unexplained fatigue and headaches.This impact will affect our weather and radio communications for the next two weeks.So while we were living our lives again this happened. [8D] Good explanation Plumbata your scientific data gathering is second to none.


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## Steve/sewell (Oct 6, 2011)

I tried the link and it doesnt display the animation yet if you copy and paste it it works.  http://strictlyhonest.com/amazing-comet-hits-the-sun-solar-flares-as-result


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