# Middle Class post ?????



## epackage (Feb 27, 2011)

What happened this time to get a whole post deleted. is this site just full of children who can't have an open discussion  or is it over moderated ???????? I didn't see one post in the whole thread that anyone could even begin to take offense with, why not close it down and let the people here decide before it vanishes forever, that's just bull shite !!!!
      Jim


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## rockbot (Feb 27, 2011)

Jim, it vanished along with the middle class![]

 Seriously though, I was wondering the same thing.

 Rocky


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## epackage (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm more amazed everyday by this site not allowing people to have a healthy discussion, there wasn't anything nasty going on in that thread at all.....guess we will never know....UGH this site is starting to suck...why even have a General Chat forum at all ????


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 27, 2011)

I guess if it's not bottle related and people voice their opinion, if the tone doesn't conform to the beliefs of the moderators, it has the possibility of being axed. If this is supposed to be a bottle site and non bottle views are not to be aired here then all non bottle categories should probably be deleted. Then one would not be tempted to view their opinion on controversial issues.


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## epackage (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Staunton Dan
> 
> I guess if it's not bottle related and people voice their opinion, if the tone doesn't conform to the beliefs of the moderators, it has the possibility of being axed. If this is supposed to be a bottle site and non bottle views are not to be aired here then all non bottle categories should probably be deleted. Then one would not be tempted to view their opinion on controversial issues.


 Dan, I guess I'll have to post my views in the ever important marble forum on the antique BOTTLES site....lol.....what a crock of shit


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## epackage (Feb 27, 2011)

...and for those who think Unions are useless and teachers shouldn't have collective bargaining rights here's a tidbit you might want to know...

 Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

 South Carolina -50th
 North Carolina -49th
 Georgia -48th
 Texas -47th
 Virginia -44th

 Wisconsin -- WITH its collective bargaining for teachers -- is ranked 2nd in the country.


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 27, 2011)

> Ony 5 states do not have collective bargaining for teachers. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:
> 
> South Carolina -50th
> North Carolina -49th
> ...


 I had forgotton what collective bargaining actually was so I looked it up in Wikipedia. Here's their definition: Collective bargaining is a process of negotiations between employers and the representatives of a unit of employees aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions.
 That brings up an interesting point Jim. Maybe we should vote as a group to determine if a member or a topic or whatever should be axed. That might up the intellegence of all concerned.


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 27, 2011)

Again, a healthy discussion is going on here. No one is being personally attacked. This thread needs to be able to run it's course or delete the General Discussion About Aanything Else category altogether.


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## jskirk (Feb 27, 2011)

I cannot believe I just saw that you are comparing a Teacher to a walmart stock employee.......The Education a teacher needs to get is very comprehensive and expensive, and with the salary they get even with Union representation they are still for the most part on the lower end of the middle class.......So lets get rid of any rights that they might have to actually  being able to live a moderatly comfortable life, make them take horrendous paycuts, take all of their benefits and retirement and lets see what happens to the common mans children when they cant get a good education,,,Maybe your kids or grandkids.  The only kids that will have a chance will the those of the rich and elite that can afford private education.  WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU WANT TO TEACH PAIN IN THE ASS INNER CITY KIDS IF YOU WERE ONLY MAKING POVERTY LEVEL WAGES AND STILL HAVE TO TRY TO SAVE FOR YOUR RETIREMENT.  i DO NOT SEE ANY  FUTURE FOR THE MDDLE CLASS IF THE RICH ELITISTS HAVE THIER WAY.  Also good luck with getting any new  Nuclear power plants. powerhouses ,hospitals, bridges, stadiums, skyscrapers roads or any other building thats not a shoeshop built safely, uptocode on time and under budget with out the Members of Union Trades that are very well trained and deserve the pay and benefits that their contrators and members that is agreed upon through Collective Bargining.    Jay


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## jskirk (Feb 27, 2011)

I for one think the welfare system could be overhauled to save money, the first thing that I would do is to make everyone that is on welfare pass a monthly drug test in order to collect the benefits, That would create jobs with drug testing sites, and decrease Welfare payments.


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## peejrey (Feb 27, 2011)

I have to believe Kirk there;
 I went into Save-Alot one day, and we were standing in the line at the check out counter.
 We waited 10 minutes for this lady and her 4 kids to pay with food stamps.....THEY HAD FREAKING STEAKS!!![>:], EVEN I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MOO-LA FOR STEAK!!!!![]
 I'm just sayin, food stams should only be used for the needs, not the wants
 The whole politics thing bothers me anyway, every time i listen to the radio, they talk about hyperinflation, Mass Defecit,  ect.......
 Sound like Germany, before heck broke loose, but it's getting better....
 Just had to put this out there
 -Preston


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## baltbottles (Feb 27, 2011)

No the problem with unions is the overly increasing rate of pay and benefits. On top of that crazy city and town regulations forcing people to use union labor. Case in point I just remodeled a house and city code required a front porch light that wasn't there when we bought the place. I could easily have put this light in myself however city code requires that a licensed electrician do the job as the house would not be my primary residence. So what did it end up costing $60 an hour plus materials with a two hour minimum for 20 minutes work.

 All I'm saying is I'd have no problem with $30 an hour for skilled labor then you bill for an hour of work not for 2. This is the reason people cut corners because they are being gauged by the union labor rates. Now I'm not saying teachers should get paid the same as a wal-mart cart pusher. But people need to look at what is a fair rate for the job they are doing. Not keep pushing for more and more every chance they get. 

 Look at it like this the more you pay a teacher them more it cost the school system the more money is needed by the state so the more taxes are collected. So the cost of living goes up and many wages go up. Driving the price of basic necessities up. further devaluing the dollar. It really doesn't matter how much money you earn what really needs to be looked at is the buying power of the dollar.

 As for this inflation there is no way to stop it sence all our money is worthless. In the end even precious metals are worthless. Because in a world without bread even the man with the box of gold starves.

 Chris


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## jskirk (Feb 27, 2011)

Here is the thing Chris, the 60.00 an hour rate with a 2  hour minimum charge is being charged by both Union and nonunion electrical contractors, the biggest difference is that, I assume,the electrician that did the job for you was union, went through a 4-5 year apprenticeship supported by dues that are agreedupon through collective barganining, and is well trained to do that job as well as wire a NICU floor in a childrens hospital.  He is usually paid 25-30 dollars an hour as well as employer provided benefits and retirement. He or she is also drug tested.The nonunion electrician very rarely is getting any class room training is being paid 10 -15 dollars an hour and has very little benefits provided , and also usually not requiered to take drug tests. So in the case of the union electrician both you, and him are happy. In the case of the nonunion electrician the only person who is happy is the Buisness owner because he is making more than twice the money on the employee.
  If you have not guessed by now I am a member of IBEW Local 481 , and have been for 18 years, I also worked nonunion for 7 years. When I realized that 12.00 a hour was all I was going to make for at least while and not get any benefits I went to the union where I was trained, and given a good living wage to do a job that is very demanding and dangerous, and I am proud to say that I am union and I am part of the most skilled electical workers and tradesman in the world.  Jay


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## jskirk (Feb 27, 2011)

The Infrastructure of the united states is in dire need of repair in many places, roads and bridges are crumbling. Who would you like to have repair them, skilled trained union employees who make a decent wage and spend their money to help support the economy of your state and nation, or illeagle migratory workers, who send all their money to anothe country, or dont make enough to even help their local economy


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## glass man (Feb 27, 2011)

DID THEY EVER REALLY FIND JIMMY HOFFA?


 I WORKED I THE ED. SYSTEM HERE IN GA. FOR 3 YEARS AS A KINDA A GLORIFIED TEACHER'S AIDE...GET ABUSE FROM PARENTS,STUDENTS AND SOME PRICIPALS WANT TO BE MINI-DICTATORS...THAT IS WHY I STARTED PAINTING HOUSES! JAMIE


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

I worked 2 different union jobs in the past and here is what I saw:

 Money out of my paycheck.
 No incentive to work harder - hey, why bust your butt when it all pays the same?
 Money out of my paycheck.
 Advancements by the "bid process" or more like the buddy system instead of merrit.
 Money out of my paycheck.
 Union bosses stiring up trouble.
 Money out of my paycheck.
 Union reps. doing whatever it is they do instead of actually working.
 Oh and how about a dues increase in July - retroactive back to the beginning of the year?
 Money out of my paycheck.

 I quit because I finally realized that there wasn't anywhere to go from there.  I couldn't negotiate my pay or benefits.  I couldn't set a goal of where I wanted to be in, say, 5 years.  I punched the clock, put my time in and collected whatever the union had agreed on for pay.  Break time - shut it down.  Lunch time - shut it down.  And you better not do any extra - it makes the rest look bad.

 I was part of a small group that tried to fight for employees rights to choose for themselves if they wanted to join or not.  That didn't go well.  The union fed the masses every lie they could think of - Your pays going to be cut to $5 and hour!  They will take all your vacation time!  You'll have to work forced overtime with NO pay!  They'll take your first born...

 I watched my parents put their time in for 30 years and retire on mine and my kids paychecks.  

 Some people like to get the best deal on a new car and will shop around and haggle.  Others are content to pay whatever is on the sticker at one of those "No haggle lots"  For me, I'll decide what's in my best interest and how much I want or need to make.

 Dave


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## cordilleran (Feb 28, 2011)

Lobey's my main intellectual squeezebox on this issue. No free rides. Cardboard chalets for everyone. A bottle of Dago Red for the ubermensch. Education? Ain't coming from a classroom. Intellect? I'm for casual sex with the eyefulls (let the chromosomes fall where they may). Success? Its measured by the brass bangin' ball measure coming from within the skin. Chiclets and a cheshire grin to beat all catcalls. The kid gloves are off and funky sidewalk commandos are urged to retire to the back of the Greyhound bus.


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## druggistnut (Feb 28, 2011)

> States are going backrupt because we have to pay Joe Blow's two pensions from two University jobs.


 
 What does it matter if a person has two retirements?  All that means is that they were ambitious enough to do it. The retirement would be paid to someone else, if not them..
 The statement made no sense.
 Bill


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## Plumbata (Feb 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  lobeycat
> Did that make sense Bill? Should i type a little slower?


 
 If you typed with slightly more care, the corrected misspellings and grammatical errors would, perhaps, deprive less from your posts in the way of effect and affect, and in the more careful construction of your ideas, instill within the reader a faithful understanding regarding your actual position. So yes, you probably should write more slowly, but more for the sake of your own interpersonal intellectual clarity than the falsely imagined deficiencies of your readers.

 This isn't subatomic physics, and you aren't lecturing about the quirks of quarks. The pedestrian level of the simple opinions you are attempting to convey require no hint of condescension in order to communicate them adequately. I do not pretend to know what genetic background you possess, but if the nature of the quoted post constitutes the pinnacle of your ability then the faults lie within your own development, and not in the abilities of your conversational combatants.

 Or, possibly, I am just mentally retarded in your biased perceptual framework of social interaction as well. Such a comprehensive mode of social categorization sure is easy, isn't it? It makes life almost as simple as that of those who believe that since they believe _what_ they believe _in the manner_ they believe it; they will go to heaven, and all others who dissent will suffer an eternity of damnation. Aren't you so incomprehensibly lucky... []


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 28, 2011)

Some of the typo's are from Dells new industry standard tiny keyboard.Fat fingers and small keyboards don't mix.I can attest to this as it happens quite frequently when typing anything.Well Rich we have fat fingers big hands, big feet (mine are size 14, I am sure your feet are large too .)You know the old saying big hands big feet in between lots of...................................poor typing skills.[8D]When gas hits 5.00 a gallon and unemployment goes double digit again you know a meltdown rivaling the great depression is just around the corner.It is then we will see what this great country is made of.Are we whiners and quitters or people who pull them selves up by the boot straps and say enough is enough and take personal responsibility in the matter very seriously.


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## towhead (Feb 28, 2011)

The Vanishing Middle Class post is still there....?  7 posts down....or was there another one?  -Julie 

 ok, now it's about 10 down, or something


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## old.s.bottles (Feb 28, 2011)

I believe that it was resurrected by popular demand. I found this, thought it was funny and fitting. 

 A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Are the cookies not the CEO's to do with as he sees fit?

 Seems to me that the TEA Party guy would soon get smart and look for another job if he wanted more cookies.  But while he is at this job, the Union will decide how many cookies he may have.  At his current job he would not be able to negotiate with the CEO for more cookies for his hard work.


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## old.s.bottles (Feb 28, 2011)

The cookies are the CEO's and he _can_ do with them what he see's fit. Unfortunately, he sees them fit in his stomach. []


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

My point was that a a non-union worker has the freedom to tell the CEO, "I want 3 cookies for my work and if you are not willing to give them to me I will be looking for another job."  The CEO might counter with a 2 cookie offer and then the employee can decide if they would like to accept.

 The union worker would only have the choice to accept what the union negotiates for him, minus the 1/2 cookie union dues, or look for another job.

 Who has more freedom and rights?

 I would rather have the freedom to choose for myself, then to blindly accept what the collective does.


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Background:  I am self employed.  In the past I worked 2 different union jobs.

 I salvage barns, log houses and stone.  Sometimes I need an extra hand or two and have to hire someone(s).  I would love to pay them $5 an hour or even $10, but I can't even find someone reliable to pull nails for less then $10.  As the owner, I can either do the work myself, or increase what I pay in order to get workers.  The lie, that without unions, pay would go to $5 an hour or whatever, is just a bunch of bull.  

 The best paying job and best benefits I had while working for someone else was at a small family run company that knew that in order to get and retain quality employees, they needed to take care of them.


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## old.s.bottles (Feb 28, 2011)

I must say I have no counter points as I am not informed on the subject as I probably should be. Maybe that's why I keep posting stuff, to keep the discussion alive. Is it not true that they are trying to take the benefits away from the current union worker's though? The benefits that they had planned on supporting themselves and their families with? Something seems terribly wrong with that if it is true.


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Bernie Madoff promised lots of people lots of money too.  Some "made" a lot through him, too.

 Problem is - the bill eventually comes due.  You eventually run out of other peoples money.  How can someone expect to work for 20 or 30 years, retire at 50 or 55 and collect a pension and benefits for another 40 years?  Where is the money going to come from?  

 As a friend of mine - a retired public school teacher - likes to say, "I got mine.  Screw you!"


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Here's something to think about:

 What happens when the world no longer uses the US Dollar as the standard?

 Remember the British Sterling?

 What about Yugoslavia?

 Take some time and think about it.  What happens when you have a bunch of pieces of paper in your wallet and no one wants to accept them?  What happens when your loaf of bread is $2 not $1?  And tomorrow it will be $4? 

 Who determines the value of the dollar?  What happens when a barrel of oil is no longer bought in dollars?  

 What happens when China calls in some of our debt?

 Lets make it personal.  Say you make $50,000 a year.  For quite awhile, you have been living well.  New car every 2 years.  Suppers out.  The house that you could only afford because the bank loaned you more then it was worth.  And that trip to Disney that you put on your credit card.  Well, you were ok at first.  You paid the mortgage.  You paid your credit card bills.  But art some point you found that you could no longer pay the balance plus all your principle.  So you started carrying a balance.  Sure, it wasn't much.  You'd be able to pay it back with your Christmas bonus or your tax return.  And that tax return?  Well that's great!  Look at how much money you got back!  Except that it was really just you loaning the government your money and collecting no interest on it.  Would you loan me your money for 0% interest?   But anyhow, you keep living the way you are.  And at some point, you are only able to pay the minimum due.  Well, what happens when you can no longer pay the interest payments on your loans?  And what happens when this occurs when gas prices are up, food's going up, electricity and oil is going up?  Oh, and don't forget that great rate you got on your home loan - that variable rate sure looked good, but now that rate is starting to creep up...  What would you do?

 Think it can't happen here?  Tell me why not.

 But before you (not anyone in particular, just anyone reading this) base your beliefs on emotion, take some time and do some research.  Find the facts for yourself.  Check your sources.  Who funded that study?  Where did they get their info?  Follow the money.  Look at the history of other nations.

 And tell me why it can't happen here.


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## Dugout (Feb 28, 2011)

Very well said David! 
 Agree wholeheartedly!
 We need our gold standard back.


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

http://www.berkshares.org/index.htm

 http://localcurrencycouncil.org/

 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/06/communities-print-own-cur_n_183497.html

 I would caution against local paper currency.  Gold and silver have a limited supply and a worth in almost all parts of the world.  Gold is easily portable, however I believe it will be silver that is most useful in day to day transactions.

 And, yes.  I accept payment in gold and silver, and I know others who do the same.  It is fairly simple to calculate.  Old US gold coin is 90% gold.  Silver coin pre-1964 is 90% silver.  New US or Canada for that matter, along with others, mint bullion coins in .999% pure.  You want to buy this bottle?  Car?  Loaf of bread?  I'll take $50 for this bottle or $2.30 face dollars in silver coin.  How about $10,000 for that car?  About 7.25 oz. of .999 gold.

 Yeah, it might take a little extra time to throw it on the scale, but like I said before, when no one wants your paper money then what?

 And I can take my gold (and silver) to Canada or England or South America and it's still an ounce of gold.


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

And how many of you have traded bottles?  

 I'll trade you my such-and-such bitters for your 2 milks and that soda.


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## rockbot (Feb 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GuntherHess (Feb 28, 2011)

> I've been working the past 18 years specializing in receiver detection systems, cryogenic and hvac systems, servo motor and data gear box control systems and over all general maintenance of a 25 meter cassegrain radio dish antenna.


 
 Sounds like fun work.


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 28, 2011)

Has Dilbert checked in on this yet?


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## rockbot (Feb 28, 2011)

language of the universe.

 fx(x)=Pr(X=x)=Pr({sEs:x(s)=x})


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## bostaurus (Feb 28, 2011)

Who let the engineers on here!!


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## cyberdigger (Feb 28, 2011)

[] that was funny Mel!!


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## Jim (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm glad I'm not the only one of "us" left, Dave. I too am self-employed, and will gladly barter my services for gold, silver, bottles or anything else that I want that is agreeable to the other party. The way I see it, when I get paid in US dollars, I use some of them to purchase those items anyway. Plus, if it saves my customer from spending cash that they either do not have or would just prefer to keep instead of keeping what they are trading to me, it's a win-win.

 Also, some may not realize that we who are self-employed get the added "bonus" of paying 100% of our Social Security and Medicare expenses. No "employer contribution" here. That is in addition to all of our medical insurance and retirement plans/savings. Paid sick days? Vacation time? Nope.

 Now, don't get me wrong- I love the freedom and opportunity for growth that being my own boss provides, and I would not trade it for a job that paid more money and benefits working under a boss and a union. I just wanted to show why I have a very hard time finding any sympathy for well-paid individuals when they are asked to contribute a bit more towards their benefits. It is simple reality. Nobody is asking anyone to take five bucks an hour and no benefits. ~Jim


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## Plumbata (Feb 28, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  lobeycat
> 
> Yes Plumb, I'm quite impressed with  your wordsmithmanship and eloquene as I'm sure everyone else here to the  man is. Your first sentence there contains fourty or so words. Most  folk would have summed up your statement in twelve words and wouldn't  have put anyone to sleep while reading it. You set the standard here. Do  you actually speak like you write? It must take you twenty minutes to  order a pizza.
> I bow to your greatness. Please forgive my hamfisted  writing style. I will strive in the future to come up to your standard  of self important triteness.


 
  The simple "eloquence" was not the point of the post. I really don't  care whether or not others are impressed; it is just a tool to be used  to clarify my ideas or opinions. I am not most folk either, and choose  to express myself as I please. Long, run-on sentences reflect the  somewhat disorganized way I think. If it puts you to sleep, then you  probably were sleep-deprived and needed the rest anyway. Feel free to  thank me later. When I am annoyed, angry, have my principles trampled  upon, or are cornered by the police, yes I actually do speak in that  manner. It totally disarms my social equals, and it distracts the police  from the activities which caused them to take an unwelcome interest in  me. When ordering a Pizza, it takes no longer than normal. I neither  want you to bow to my nonexistent greatness, nor to sarcastically strive  to achieve what you have classified as my "self-important triteness";  sarcasm utilized in order to circumvent the core reality of the  situation: that you were being a condescending punk to Bill for no good  reason, and don't have the metaphorical guns to back up the  condescension.

  You told Steve/Sewell several times to apologize for being mistaken  about that cobalt bottle being ground down (I assumed it was altered  myself also).

  Perhaps you should take your own advice which was distributed with  abandon, and apologize for disrespecting Bill in a blatant and  conversationally irrelevant manner? But I know you won't, because you  are an insecure human being who is incapable of the _sincere _admission  of personal fault, and instead of dealing with the core issues or your  own imperfections, you grasp desperately for unrelated but poignant  elements unto which you divert the focus. Clever, but not _that_ clever.

  I call you out for being condescending, and instead of tackling the core  issue, you say that my post puts you to sleep and that I am  self-important and trite. Well good for you old man, you sure are a  commendable and wise human being. Congratulations on being so observant  and relevant.

  To return the sarcasm, I hope in 25 years when I am your age now that I  can be just as smart and eternally faultless as yourself. 




> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> Does this reflect my intelligence?


 
   Certainly not! It is very clear from your previous posts that you are a  thoughtful, sensitive, and gifted individual. There are many many kinds  of  intellectual abilities, and they can involve emotions, macro-systems,  micro-systems,  engineering of all sorts, linguistics, philosophy, the arts,  naturalistic skills, etc etc. No one can enjoy a mastery of all  categories. I believe that your grasp of the English language is totally  fine, and can bring to mind no examples which support the low opinion  you hold regarding your own abilities. Don't be so hard on yourself.

   You are also very respectful of others, and, it seems, would never  do and have never done anything warranting the least bit of reactionary  negativity. No one is judging you, largely because you don't judge  others. (I could learn from that) As Jesus said:



> Do not judge, or you too will be  judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and  with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


 




  In regards to the actual topic, I am really enjoying the comments posted  by David Fertig and Jim and can find nothing to disagree with. About a month  ago I spent an evening researching alternative currencies, the Ithaca  Hour bills (what a cool concept, not really viable over a larger area  but still quite interesting), NORFED and the Liberty Dollar, and the  unfortunate imprisonment of Von Nothaus. He had a really nifty idea, and  the level of support was astounding. The idea really appeals to me, but  unfortunately I was not aware of the Liberty Dollar before it was shut  down and all the precious metals confiscated. I wouldn't mind getting a  few of the certificate/bills just as collector items, and a few of the  bullion coins. I know that the stated reason for the raid was that the  bills and bullion coins resembled US currency, but could another reason  be that the income of store owners, in the form of silver or gold, would  be somewhat "off the books" and thus very difficult to derive tax money  from?

  I have nowhere near the level of work experience possessed by David  Fertig or Jim, but have also accepted antiques, sterling silver, and  other items in payment for my work. I actually prefer getting paid with  items of substance or metals rather than cash, and many times have  bartered with friends and associates in favor of dealing with the medium  of currency, which only retains its value for as long as the aggregate  trust/faith of the public in the paper is maintained.

  Bartering should become more widespread, but since the Gov't can't  easily tax a non-standardized medium of exchange it is not widely  supported. Actually, I am not sure about the process. If someone  "traded" an amount of gold for an automobile, as suggested by David F.,  could that transaction be taxed somehow?

  The process of bartering, albeit often more slow than the transfer of  cash, can be far more helpful both in the short term and in the long  run. If each party possesses something that the other party wants, and  each of them places an equivalent value on the items, then the  transaction represents an almost immediate transmutation of what was  useless/unwanted to something that can start serving a desired purpose.  The whole stage of converting the items into cash, which them must be  converted back into materials is skipped and money(or value) is saved  from taxation. This is all pretty obvious, but here is an example of how  trading/bartering can be very beneficial to the savvy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip

  In a less dramatic way, people who collect "Collectible Card Game" (CCG)  cards will often set out to trade up from something worth less than a  dollar, up to the best card in the game. In the MTG game, for example,  people would start with something common, and over time and after  mutually beneficial trades go from having something worth less than a  dollar to the Black Lotus, worth over 600 bucks. I knew a few people who  did this, and it would have been impossible if they relied upon US  Dollars.

  Are there any "barter" markets that operate regularly in the United  States? I'd love to go somewhere with, say, a bunch of ingots of Indium,  or seasoned Oak Burls, or Sassafras Root, or jugs full of food grade  35% H2O2, and trade for fresh vegetables and other wares. That would be  awesome.


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Plum,

 When buying/selling a car in PA, there is a form to fill out where you list the purchase price.  The tax is calculated here and in order to get the title transfered into your name, you need to mail a check in to the good folks at the DMV.  Now there is nothing stopping you from stating that the purchase price was less then (or more then) what you paid.  This is easier when buying a used car private, where the two of you would just go to a notary to fill out the forms.  Not so much at a dealer.

 But the main point is that the sale price is calculated in dollars.  Do the math.  5 bitters, 10 milks, 2 ounces of gold and 40 hours labor on your house = ?

 I collect sales tax on items I sell where the buyer does not have a sales tax ID (sale-for-resale, agriculture, manufacturing, etc.).  PA is 6%.  So - $100 bottle plus tax is $106 or about $4.80 face value in 90% silver coin (based on current market).  Convert (sell) some silver and deposit $$$ into your checking.  Then every 3 months I call the 800 number and enter my sales, taxable sales, tax collected, etc. and mail them a check which comes out of my bank account based on US $.

 You could just as easily do this with most anything.  Peanuts.  Coffee beans.  Your time and labor.  Art work.  Whatever.  Sure there are plenty of ways to take advantage of the system by doing it this way.  But then again, with a good accountant and lawyer, you can work the system with a strictly by the book business too.  I do my best to keep it legit, by from time to time items are sold at a yard sale.

 Now don't go thinking that I do this on a day to day basis.  I've been buying and selling since I've been 11 or so and will consider almost anything that I can legally make a buck on, but most of my business is based on cash and checks.

 Craigslist has a barter heading and I know there are other sites where you can barter all kinds of stuff.  There's even a site where you can barter a week or month at your house for the same at their house - think vacations or extended business trips.

 The dollar is not too different from colored beads or smoked fish.  It's worth whatever 2 parties agree it's worth.


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## peejrey (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm soooooooooooooooo confused........
 I glad to be going, maybe into the ag. stuff....
 Plant, grow, pick......
 That's the life, hard work, long hot hours, but my bed will only be 50 feet away......
 Lemonade, and sandwiches with my wife, (hopefully) at lunch, and no long commute home from work.........
 Yep, 
 Preston


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## David Fertig (Feb 28, 2011)

Peej,

 Confused?  Just trade some of your 'maters & cukes to your neighbor for some of his eggs.  You'll catch on in no time!


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## cordilleran (Mar 1, 2011)

Plumbata:

 I have always enjoyed reading your posts. It is refreshing to know that the mantle is passed onward unfettered and there are a scant few thinkers of the male pursuasion still possessing the naugles to back-up their ruminations.

 I suspect you'll be even more entrenched 30 years hence. TFFT.


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## morbious_fod (Mar 1, 2011)

Being from the coalfields of Southwest Virginia, I have been around the coal unions for years. The unions were a godsend and one of the death nails for the industry. There were actual union wars between the Unions and the Companies in places like Matewan WV. There was a real reason for the Unions to exist back then, because the companies were taking advantage of the workers, even to the point of paying them in company specific script they would only use in company stores, and giving them housing that they would immediately be evicted from if they lost their job. Things are better now for the coal industry; however, the companies found a new way to address the problem through automation which allowed them to do more without having to to hire more union employees. The glory days of coal are gone, and only a few are able to get these jobs, and thus the area is dying.

 I completely understand Unions to stand up to the "evil" corporations and companies; however, I don't see the need for those who work for the public to be able to demand more and more money and benefits from us the taxpayer while this country's educational system is losing ground year after year. The public job sector is the fastest growing sector in the country at the moment, and they seem to be making much more than their private sector counterparts who are paying for it all, then they expect us to feel for them? I live in Virginia and am quite glad that collective bargaining isn't allowed, because all I ever heard from the teachers during my time in school, when I noticed, was them always bellyaching that they weren't paid enough Nevermind that these same teachers made much more than my mother who also worked for the Virginia Highway Department. 

 Someone pointed out that the states without collective bargaining were the worst in the country, maybe these teachers in these areas who can't go to greener pastures are just doing the bare minimum, because they are spending all their days moaning that they don't make enough. If you aren't doing it for the love of teaching kids, then don't become a teacher.

 Whatever happened to performing public service because you feel the need to serve the public, not because you can get the big money and fabulous prizes by working for the gubberment?


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## Wangan (Mar 1, 2011)

.                                                   haha,I take it all back


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## David Fertig (Mar 1, 2011)

Well said Morbid Food.


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> Whatever happened to performing public service because you feel the need to serve the public, not because you can get the big money and fabulous prizes by working for the gubberment?


 

 Good post morbious. In regards to this rhetorical question, I think you know the answer. The mentality which leads to that kind of selfless service is dying fast, and probably has been since the 1950s. 

 The manner in which this society is constructed allows little room for someone to be satisfied with public service without adequate compensation. This is a very materialistic, consumer-oriented culture and in order to demonstrate one's social competence and status (through material consumption) one needs money. Perhaps a few people would commend the efforts of those who make 20K a year working at a non-profit food pantry, but the rest of society would just look at their junker car and their worn clothing, stop there, and cast the judgment that they are unambitious, unintelligent people who aren't worth a minute of time. These people would get treated poorly on a daily basis. Very few people want to pursue a vocation which would allow others to cast them in such a negative, socially-constructed light.

 Perhaps if the manner in which the people of this country (or, rather, Westernized capitalist consumer cultures in general) utilize their economic resources was different, and social benefits were realized from displays of frugality and asceticism rather than superficiality, material consumption, and over-enhanced body image, then more people would answer the call to serve the public. Also, more natural resources would be conserved, the chain of raw material to product to recycling back to raw material would become strengthened, and the future generations would have a chance at appreciating the splendors of the world which are becoming more and more despoiled by the minute. No longer do people use nature as their playgrounds; now they sit inside, buy games and movies and cable access, and get their stimulation from sources nowhere nearly as edifying (in 2009 the average time spent per day watching TV was 2.8 hours in America). This cost of such material is far greater than that of taking a stroll in a park, down Main St., or a hike in the woods, but since people have adapted to consume that form of constructed stimulation they now need lots of money to entertain themselves, when it used to be done for free, or at least very inexpensively. What used to be an expensive luxury is now seen as a daily requisite. The whole way that the people of western consumer cultures live out their lives is diseased and unsustainable, and may ultimately lead to their downfall if the trend continues.


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## GuntherHess (Mar 1, 2011)

> The mentality which leads to that kind of selfless service is dying fast, and probably has been since the 1950s.


 
 Still alive. JFK's Peace Corps in the 60's. One of the best ideas ever to come out of the USA. Still going strong.

 Habitat for Humanity, tons of volunteers, my favorite charity.

 Service isnt dead you just have to look around.


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

I suppose that is true Matt, and I have volunteered at H for H and soup kitchens myself, but overall there is far less selflessness nowadays.

 How many people are entering religious service orders nowadays? Perhaps the dwindling numbers have something to do with general disillusionment with organized religion, but then again it may be a function of the changing mentality of the society at large. Money and Image are our Gods now.

 How many people conduct themselves in a neighborly fashion, or even know the names of their neighbors in this age? When it snows I would shovel the sidewalks and walkways of my neighbors, and offer to help fix things free of charge. I can count on 1 hand the number of times it was reciprocated. When a tree fell in the road during a nasty storm I didn't wait for the road crew to get there and i chopped it up and moved it out of the way while it was still pouring. Someone saw, came outside and repeatedly insisted that i take their 20 dollars. They wouldn't take no as an answer, as the tree was blocking their driveway and they were very appreciative that they could make their appointment. I guess the modern mentality is that no one does anything for free, and when they do they must be paid in order to ensure similar favors in the future. It kinda takes the fun out of it.

 There are no longer wide-spread community barn-raising events, or churches built in a day by hundreds of volunteers, at least outside the few organizations you mentioned. People in general are more selfish and self-serving in this country nowadays than they were before, and for some reason their leisure time and comfort is more valuable than genuine needs of others. Only a few lucky and wealthy societies can enjoy this culture of "I don't feel like it... Now gimme back the remote control"


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## GuntherHess (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm not seeing it.  I've been alive since 1960 and I havent noticed any real change in general selflessness.
 We just did scouting for food with the cub scouts and picked up a ton of donated food from people's houses. 
 I didnt see one person complain about us asking for food donations.
 Maybe you are confusing urban with rural attitudes? Maybe hanging with the wrong folks?
 There was definately the impression of the "ME" generation during the Regan era but I'm not sure how you quantify that.


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

Perhaps you are right, I can get rather cynical sometimes. It's not like i was around 100 years ago so I really can't say how people operated back then, aside from what is gleaned from what is read, and even then what is remembered is often only what you are looking for, or what is colored by one's biases and thus more tangible or accessible in memory.


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## epackage (Mar 1, 2011)

great to see the discussion can continue without being shut down....


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## David Fertig (Mar 1, 2011)

Plum - people more selfish now?!?  Ever read the Bible?

 Did you (anyone in general) ever go out to eat, not at one of those swanky restaurants, but just a sit-down place and see someone that you could just tell didn't have much?  Ever pay your bill and give the waitress $20 and tell her to cover their meal?  Then leave before they know who it was?

 Kind of makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.


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## GuntherHess (Mar 1, 2011)

I hope any post that turns into personal attacks gets shut down...and quick.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

They will..


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## GuntherHess (Mar 1, 2011)

> Perhaps you are right,


 
 I could be wrong. How do you quantify general selflessness in a population? I dont know.
 Everyone has different perceptions. 
 All you can do is stick to what you think is right.

 Hey, worst case, its just another decline of a great civilization ... has happened many times before, will happen again.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

Any of you seen "Gran Torino" ?? It really hit home about what's going on out there these days..


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## rockbot (Mar 1, 2011)

This has been a wonder thread. A great way to understand this complex universe we all live in![]


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## bostaurus (Mar 1, 2011)

> Hey, worst case, its just another decline of a great civilization ... has happened many times before, will happen again.


 
 Just read this quote that a friend posted online:

 We are, I believe, fast becoming a society of the moment, with little knowledge of our past or our history. We are fast becoming a society without the ability to analyze information or create new solutions to the problems that face our society. We are in effect fast becoming a society enslaved to a select few who want to supply us with the answers so that they can control us and control society.

 We are entering a period of time where the old solutions will not work but they are the only ones available because no one has been taught how to think â€œoutside the box.â€ Yet we may not be able to meet the challenges of the coming years. 
 ~ Tony Mitchell

 What do you think?


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## bostaurus (Mar 1, 2011)

That is funny that it blocked out the beginning of analyze.


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> How do you quantify general selflessness in a population?


 
 You really can't, as it is a qualitative, culturally-constrained variable. That makes it a real pain in the arse to communicate, criticize, or defend from a solid informational foundation.



> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> no one has been taught how to think â€œoutside the box.â€


 
 Doing the best I can over here. Got a long way and many years to go though. Thankfully my father was very open-minded and taught me to be both open to and quite skeptical of just about everything. I plan to instill within my children the same lessons he taught me, and then some of my own.

 In general I agree with your friend. Both society and technology are evolving at a speed which would utterly mystify Darwin. Psychologically, us human beings are nowhere near the level of refinement or advancement that we would like to believe we collectively possess. We are just civilized animals, ultimately.


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## bostaurus (Mar 1, 2011)

We taught our kids that it is okay to question what they were being told or taught, respectfully.  It is one of the many reasons we decided to home school our kids.  They are all in college now and very independent minded.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

I am an independent minded civilized animal.. and I vote! []


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

> very independent minded.


 That's how we get-er-done......down here were independent minded 6 years earlier..... 
 How do you think i've made it this long.....[sm=rolleyes.gif]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

U aint been around *that* long.. heheee... [8D]


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

Let me ask you Charlie, What do you define as "Independent minded"?[]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

You may ask...
 []

 When you've been paying your own bills for 20 years, you won't have to ask..


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

hmmm.......Well played.....[8D]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

With utmost respect, PJ.. mind you! 
 You're a bright young fellow.. I'm sure there are others who would agree..


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks Charlie,
  When i retire from teaching to start my business, I'll name a greenhouse after you......[]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

That's better than a compost heap named after me.. ain't it? [&:]


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

I don't know, compost isn't cheap anymore.
 Plus it grows great plants....[]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 1, 2011)

But I wanna be the greenhouse!! You promised.. [][&o]


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

If that compost was growing some quality cannabis indica, I would be  honored to be named on the subsurface foundation of the greenhouse structure. 

  ... assuming I received royalties in the form of properly cured product...


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## peejrey (Mar 1, 2011)

OK OK!!
 Palin will be the compost
 You'll be the second greenhouse
 My grandpa has rights over the first one[]


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## rockbot (Mar 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> Both society and technology are evolving at a speed which would utterly mystify Darwin. Psychologically, us human beings are nowhere near the level of refinement or advancement that we would like to believe we collectively possess. We are just civilized animals, ultimately.


 
 The problem is that we are advancing with the wrong kind of technology. To much cell phone and biofeedback video games are zapping us of our ability to make any real technological advancements. Only 3% of our National budget is dedicated to science and research. 

 Our future lies in the heavens. Whether you believe in a creator or not the universe is an apparent infinite realm to be explored. Things beyond our imagination in waiting.

 This planet is finite in resources and time but the universe is endless.


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## beendiggin (Mar 2, 2011)

I want to dig bottles on other planets.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 2, 2011)

I bet there's some rockin' OP Romulan ales and Saurian whiskies out there.. and maybe we'll finally figure out where all those camel flasks came from!


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## GuntherHess (Mar 2, 2011)

> Romulan ales


 
 it comes in a can now[:'(]


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## cyberdigger (Mar 2, 2011)




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## rockbot (Mar 2, 2011)

Dilbert has arrived.


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## JOETHECROW (Mar 2, 2011)

Dilbert! [] Too funny,...always read it first in the comics! Anyone else appreciate the flying monkeys or accounting trolls? Great humor and pretty interesting thread...(although I've contibuted "squat" to it so far...) anyways,...thanks. 

 P.S. Tony, you've been "hiding your light underneath a bushel"! Pretty impressive stuff.

 David Fertig,...Cool business and outlook you have going on there....


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## glass man (Mar 3, 2011)

THE SOUTH FOUGHT HARD IN THE CIVIL WAR TO GET OUT OF THE UNION...WHERE DID IT GET US?

 I THINK WE SHOULD JUST SKIP IT ALL AND GO DIRECTLY LIKE IT IS 1930 AGAIN...NOW IF A PERSON DID NOT LIKE THEIR JOB THEN OR WHAT THEY WERE PAID,THERE WERE 50 MORE WAITING TO TAKE IT...PEOPLE COULD GO IN WITH BATS AND BEAT PEOPLE TO DEATH IF THEY WERE TRYING TO START A DAMN UNION...THAT WOULD CLEAR THEM CHEESE HEAD TEACHERS OUT OF THE HOUSE IF THAT WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN NOW!!

 "DIDN'T NEED NO WELFARE STATE,EVERYBODY PULLED THEIR WEIGHT...BROTHER WE COULD USE A MAN LIKE HERBERT HOOVER AGAIN ...THOSE WERE THE DAYSSSSS!" JAMIE


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## cordilleran (Mar 3, 2011)

This much I've come to know. People do not learn from their mistakes. They take offense with people who may have a solution and not a rehash of the same old hoary mistakes. They crucify people with original thought. Most people think not beyond adolescence. Childhood pasttimes are now big business. Procrastination is key. Flotsam is the high water mark to grasp like seasweed when floundering in a heaving crest. People are easily swayed with appeals to base emotion. The latter appraisal is critical when reviewing the vitality of a civilization. Ethos and logos are considered passe. Have a nice day.


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## ktbi (Mar 3, 2011)

I have to take issue with some of the generalizations implied on this thread.  I won't address specifics, like unions, as I have no real experience to draw on. But I know a lot of people locally, young and old, civil servant and private enterprise, etc., and most, if not all, are very decent people that I am proud to call friends.  They all have a bug or two that some might find off-putting, but then so do I.  Bottom line is they are today, not the future and not the past, but today - and I like it. Cord - you mentioned _people_ do this and _they_ do that.  About 20 people have posted on this thread.  By your reckoning, at least 11 of them are adolescent thinkers who don't learn from their mistakes and crucify people with original thoughts. If really true, I'd have left this forum a long time ago. There really is a lot of good out there and we will correct the mess we are in.  Easy - no, quickly - no, but it will get done.  Anyhow, just don't forget the good out there...Ron


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## David Fertig (Mar 11, 2011)

Here you go!

 http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/10/utah-legislature-goes-gold-silver-legal-tender/


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## Dugout (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks David. That will be going to my governor.


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## JOETHECROW (Mar 11, 2011)

> Easy - no, quickly - no, but it will get done. Anyhow, just don't forget the good out there...Ron


 
 The power of positive thinking!


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## suzanne (Mar 13, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  old.s.bottles
> 
> I believe that it was resurrected by popular demand. I found this, thought it was funny and fitting.
> 
> A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."


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## suzanne (Mar 13, 2011)

Plumbata, you are very articulate.  But when writing sometimes you want to use big words sparingly and only if they are going to have a real impact on the reader, otherwise you can lose your audience.  Not that I'm an expert.  I was looking at your post to Lobeycat.  It is very difficult to grab people's attention let alone keep them reading to the end.  As a mom I know this. 

 Anyway, I'm going to be gone at work and I leave an instructional note to  Dana to perform a simple task while I am gone.  It goes like this:

 "Dana, please let the goose out and feed the stray cat.  Love, mom."    I set bowl of cat food on counter and leave.

 When I get home the goose is still locked up and I can plainly see the starving  cat  hiding furtively  behind a chicken cage.  I guess he thinks he is invisible to me back there.

 I realize I have to be more creative.  The next day I'm going to be gone at work and I leave an instructional note to Dana to perform a simple task while I am gone.
 Dana, the goosey is crying out for justice - oh God  why must I languish in this stinky prison when the promised land lies just beyond this door?"
 Please free the Goosey Dana.  You have the power.  Also, feed cat please.  Love mom.

 I realize what I just said has nothing to do with big words.  I got off on a tangent.  Sorry.  Maybe you are not still with me.


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## suzanne (Mar 13, 2011)

Hopefully you are still with me.   I could have said "the emaciated cat" but  "starving" is better because you can feel it in your gut.  If you like cats you are going sit up a little straighter at the unjustice.  Of course if you hate cats you are going to sit there smiling.  Maybe thinking, "What a great day!  Cats are starving!"  Either way you are going to feel something.


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## David Fertig (Mar 13, 2011)

While I would not say that cats taste like chicken, I might offer that the meat is textured similar to chicken.  A little tougher and a little "stringier." 
 When dressed however, what once looked like a large cat does not go too far for a hungry guy.


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## David Fertig (Mar 13, 2011)

Oops.  Almost forgot the goose.  Now that makes a good family meal!


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 14, 2011)

> Please free the Goosey Dana.  You have the power.  Also, feed cat please.  Love mom.


So what happened? Did the cat eat the goose or what?[]


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## Wangan (Mar 14, 2011)

I believe that unions,presidents,store owners,parents EVEN LAWYERS or whoever can be good or they can be bad.It all depends on how they are doing their job to the best of their ability without a secret agenda or ulterior motives.What?Parents with ulterior motives?Think about those who are borrowing money on their infants social security numbers.A dictator could even be good if he cared for his people more than himself,but with greed and corruption and personal agendas running rampant around the world,this will never be.Take any subject and follow the money or power trail and it is obvious,the world is all about "whats in it for me".The few this doesnt apply to are not allowed in any position of money or power because it infringes on those that are.The power of positive thinking is great.Too bad our leaders are not that way for us instead of for themselves.I have lost faith in most of humanity's ways.This used to be a great country,now it is a shell of its former self.A day will come when we will not be heard,but told.I hope I am not alive when this happens and if I am I will stand my ground to my end.You see even I have my own agenda,my family.


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## rockbot (Mar 16, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Wangan
> 
> I believe that unions,presidents,store owners,parents EVEN LAWYERS or whoever can be good or they can be bad.It all depends on how they are doing their job to the best of their ability without a secret agenda or ulterior motives.What?Parents with ulterior motives?Think about those who are borrowing money on their infants social security numbers.A dictator could even be good if he cared for his people more than himself,but with greed and corruption and personal agendas running rampant around the world,this will never be.Take any subject and follow the money or power trail and it is obvious,the world is all about "whats in it for me".The few this doesnt apply to are not allowed in any position of money or power because it infringes on those that are.The power of positive thinking is great.Too bad our leaders are not that way for us instead of for themselves.I have lost faith in most of humanity's ways.This used to be a great country,now it is a shell of its former self.A day will come when we will not be heard,but told.I hope I am not alive when this happens and if I am I will stand my ground to my end.You see even I have my own agenda,my family.Â


 

 Very well put. That is why politics makes me laugh. Whether its Dem's or Repub's they all have their own agenda. Back in the 1990's I read an interesting article about our congressional delegates and how much of them were millionaires. It was ironic to read that more democrats were millionaires then republicans.  
 Funny how that works.


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## suzanne (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't know where you came from but I know exactly where you're going to end up.


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## David Fertig (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's another:

 http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/03/17/1059132/legislator-says-the-state-needs.html

 Not to be confused with:

 http://charlotte.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/ce031811.htm

 Please see and understand the difference.


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