# govt protest



## rockbot (Feb 10, 2012)

Our local culture has been under attack and now its out of control. The environmental/conservation movement is killing off our food source, culture and overall
 access to our public lands.
 We've been protesting, submitting testimony and coming together with other groups to try to stop this madness.

 If HB2520 and SB2782 passes we will loose the last remaining parcel of public lands on the slopes of Mauna Loa.

 My fellow Americans, what is happening to this country?

 The following link below is helping to get the word out.

 http://milliontrees.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/conservation-refugees-the-misanthropy-of-ecological-restorations/


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## mr.fred (Feb 10, 2012)

Very sad Rocky!----stay vigilante in your protests [8|]----this country is upside down right now[]-----can't last forever  (or) can it?-----Hang in there   ~Fred


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## surfaceone (Feb 10, 2012)

Aloha Tony,

 You're looking to be in good company. More power to the defenders of the greater Hawaiian Ohana. Best wishes on not being exterminated by the government "helpers" who seek to remodel the environment in their own sterile image...


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## cyberdigger (Feb 10, 2012)

Hawaii should declare independence.. I'm serious.. Washy D.C. has no clue what is going on there..


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## RedGinger (Feb 10, 2012)

WTG, Rock.


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## surfaceone (Feb 10, 2012)

Aloha Charlie,

 Mr. Obama's wing of Washington is waging war against us on many fronts.

 Here's a pertinent SITE that concerns the war that the US government has waged against the Hawaiian people, officially, since January, 1893.

 I'd suggest viewing the video, Na Maka o ka `Aina. It's a compelling insight into an especially ugly, and not well known part of our history.


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## surfaceone (Feb 10, 2012)

The last Hawaiian Princess






 Victoria KaÊ»iulani Kalaninuiahilapalapa Kawekiu i Lunalilo Cleghorn


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

Iâ€™ve meet with several groups this week. Hunting clubs, recreational users, Native Hawaiians and political watchdog groups. Not to mention talking with hundreds of people and they pretty much all have the same conclusion.

 Our opposition is heavily funded and supported our Governor in the past election and now this administration is caring it out. Old Neil Abercrombie turned out to be quite the game changer.

 Abercrombie is on the buddy list with the messiah in chief too so we are getting hammered. The â€œOld boy networkâ€ is alive and well here and can rival the Chicago boys.

 If this bill passes weâ€™ll be paying .10 cents extra for every paper or plastic grocery bag we use. We already pay .05 cents so youâ€™re talking .15 cents a bag. Thatâ€™s to the tune of 30 million a year.

 Move your feet, Iâ€™ll tax your seat!

 To add insult to injury, our power company will be raising its rates again, and get this I sh*t you notâ€¦

 â€œDue to the increase in solar power systems we are incurring revenue losses and seek an increase in ratesâ€

 So the poor is going to taking one for the team. I donâ€™t think Obamaâ€™s offering free solar systems yet.


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

> I donâ€™t think Obamaâ€™s offering free solar systems yet.


 
 Hey Tony,

 We already did for his political benefactors... Hot Off the Presses.


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

my bad Surf![]

 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-visible-solar-power-success-2012-02-08


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

Yeah, Tony,

 I was sadly aware of the Chinese position on solar panels. Wondering all the while if they weren't backwards engineering some of our stuff...

 Chicago style, increasingly seems to be the methodology employed by our Obamacaring officials.

"Solyndra-linked fundraiser still boosting Obama campaign

Steven Spinner, a former Energy Department official with ties to the failed solar company, continues to raise money for the president and help organize events.

 October 24, 2011|By Peter Nicholas and Tom Hamburger, Washington Bureau
 Reporting from Washington â€” A former Energy Department official linked to the failed Solyndra solar enterprise deal continues to raise campaign money for President Obama and helped plan a fundraising luncheon that the president will attend in San Francisco on Tuesday.

 Steven Spinner, who remains in the top tier of Obama fundraisers, took part in a conference call in recent weeks devoted to planning the event at the W Hotel. He also has joined other Obama fundraising calls, according to a person familiar with Spinner's participation who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to comment publicly." From.

 Did you take note of the SunPower Tangled Web?

 "It is a fair question to ask how a company with such serious charges lodged against its management team could receive a $1.2 billion loan guarantee from the taxpayers, so it could built a new manufacturing plant in Mexico to build the solar panels it will install at a photovoltaic ranch that will create a total of 15 permanent jobs."

 ~~~~~~****~~~~~

 So, these guys seem to be the Anti-Kalua Klan. Man, they've had you in the Crosshairs for a long time.







 "Leslie Tam favors hunting wild pigs with a Robin Hood-type longbow and arrows in Nuuanu forest. He has hit just four pigs in five years. Other Oahu pig hunters use dogs and knives, and use guns for backup."

The Rest of the Story.

 ***************&&&&&&&&&*******






 "Neil Abercrombie is the Democratic Governor of Hawaii since December 2010.

 As far as the environment is concerned, Abercrombie claims to "take pride in [his] decisions supporting conservation and resource protection." [8] However, his voting record has not always been fully endorsed by environmental groups (he votes with them, on average, about 70% of the time). [9] He voted against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge." From.


 Yeah, Tony, ole Neil is just helping to  "perpetuate" your rights.

"The Abercrombie Plan

 Restore Capabilities of and Public Confidence in the Department of Land and Natural Resources

 Prior to Western contact, Native Hawaiian society had the konohiki to enforce its resource management model from the land to the sea. The Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) is our modern day equivalent with extensive land, marine, and cultural resources under its watch. DLNR has not had the resources needed to do its job. Failure to provide adequate support to DLNR has negative economic and social consequences that we pay for in other ways. With the right leadership and capacity to look for additional sources of funding, including federal funding, we can ensure DLNR has the capacity to carry out its mission. And we can make sure DLNR is managed well by an objective Director who has broad community and agency support, understands the uniqueness of different islands and communities, listens to concerns, ensures proper enforcement of the rules and laws, and takes active initiative in carrying out the agencyâ€™s critical mission. With the right leadership, we will make our parks great again; protect cultural resources and practices; appropriately support and regulate economic activities; acknowledge, respect, and perpetuate hunting, fishing, and other recreational and subsistence activities; and ensure that natural resources can be utilized and enjoyed by the people of Hawaii in perpetuity." From Horse's Mouth.

 Neil's voting record looks a tad Berserk,  He's pro Burro.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2012)

Tony,...this really sucks! Anybody we can write to,... or any online petitions, Credo action style? I can't stand it when agendas get shoved through, despite huge opposition from local reason....WTF? It's just wrong. Hang in Bro,...keep fighting the good fight.


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

They blame the game mammals for everything. I can take you to pristine forests that have populations of wild pig that have existed for a thousand years and its just fine. The environmentalist only see what promotes their agenda. 

 Surf that article talking about how invasive animals help spread invasive plants is totally off.

 I have scientific research and pictures to prove other wise. They never publish anything that doesn't fit the conservation mold.

 Below is a pic I took last week on my way up the mountain. The pretty yellow flowers belongs to a very invasive plant that originated in Madagascar and arrived
 about 10 years ago. The sheep and goats were eradicated from this area about 4 years ago. This past year the air born seeds from this weed spread and
 it has basically taken over the mountain. Our DLNR told me straight that they can't control it now.
 The sheep and goats loved it and eat every bit of it in the past. 
 Yet they blame the animals for spreading it. Its an air born seed plant. Morons I tell you.


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

Tony,

 The animals, and the native people are under attack, it seems. 

 Ever see a Mouflon? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 now, I come to find out even they are filthy disgusting native plant destroyers and alien ungulates.

 "Mouflon have also been introduced into Hawaii as game animals, where they cause serious damage to native plant species and are more difficult to control than other alien ungulates.
 Their habitat is steep mountainous woods near the tree line. In Winter they migrate to lower altitudes.[5]" From wiki-repeat.

 If I wanted to get the word out from Hilo, I might think of becoming a wiki-contributor...

 There has been a spate of Hog Hunting television shows on Mainland air waves in the last little while. Even one that featured robust women in tight shirts with pistolas! You might try and contact one of those shows. Maybe the Discovery Channel. They had that anti-ungulate Hogs Gone Wild show. You could pitch a Hunting Hawaiian Style show, for the other side of the coin time. Call the Fox news affiliate KHON2.

 The other side has already got you buried in repetitive paperwork and coverage. Time for a Kamehameha moment...


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

And thanks for the support Fred, Red, Charlie and Joe.[]

 It really is tough cause us hunters love the forest and we want to protect pristine places but our government and conservation groups keep taking more land and then they end up not having the resources to manage it or its just impossible to do. All the while its off limits to we the people.

 They have this utopia of a place that is pre man, and that is not the reality that exists.


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

Yep Surf, you got that right.

 We used to hunt Mouflon but they have been eradicated from public lands. 

 We have hybrids in a few spots. They are crosses from an early stock brought to Hawaii by Captain Vancouver in 1790's and have adopted and evolved into their own distinct species. Found no were else in the world I might add. Given to King Kamehameha the great and he had a kapu put on them for 10 years.
 He had the wisdom to know that it would feed his people some day.

 Of course the environmentalist would have no of that. Modern genocide with a twist of conservationalism!

 Quite a shame. Darwin would be proud to see such evolution in just a couple of hundred years.

 They are magnificent sheep and some of the only disease free animals in the USA.


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

These are slated to be shot from helicopters this month on the 21st and 22nd. They shoot babies and all. Heartless enviromentalism. []

 The emperor has no clothes!


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## rockbot (Feb 11, 2012)

Here is my little guy. how could any human kill such a baby?

 I figure in another 40 years this country will be practicing euthanasia! Soylent Green ring a bell?


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## epackage (Feb 11, 2012)

Tony I'm gonna read thru this later on tonight, too much going on at my end to comment intelligently at this time...Jim


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

> *Given to King Kamehameha the great and he had a kapu put on them for 10 years.
> He had the wisdom to know that it would feed his people some day.
> 
> Of course the environmentalist would have no of that. Modern genocide with a twist of conservationalism!
> ...


 
 Tony,

 This is compelling stuff, and you are an eloquent spokesman. The camera likes you, too. Keep out in front of this, man. 

 This couple is from Oregon, Makai Ohana productions. Maybe they do pro bono. Are there local producers that might take up the camera to portray the Hawaiian Up Country side?






 You got the beloved fiesty little guy role, sewed up. Hawaiian hunter versus Big Enviro a Cage Match. I can see it now...


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## andy volkerts (Feb 11, 2012)

[]Dont know how, but, they are killing babies in Syria every day. I wish you and your fellow protesters success in stopping this takeover, and be sure not to vote for your governor next election.........


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

> []Dont know how, but, they are killing babies in Syria every day.


 
 Alien ungulates, again?


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## RedGinger (Feb 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> Here is my little guy. how could any human kill such a baby?
> 
> I figure in another 40 years this country will be practicing euthanasia! Soylent Green ring a bell?


 
 He's precious!  Did you name him yet?  

 I'm really sorry about everything that is going on in Hawaii.  Keep spreading the word.  Again, good work, Rock!  Hang in.


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## andy volkerts (Feb 11, 2012)

not alien ungulates, but other so called humans, ie mercenaries alquaida cia whomever are killing babies in Syria, and other places as well[]


> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## surfaceone (Feb 11, 2012)

> not alien ungulates, but other so called humans, ie mercenaries alquaida cia whomever are killing babies in Syria,


 
 Dude,

 Thats Bashar al-Assad. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 You gotta keep up.

 Syria seems far removed from the Hawaiian Islands and the attempted Island Life Remodeling Project being undertaken by the DLNR.

 Perhaps, al-Assad's death from the air policy against the Syrian people, is the page that the DLNR is using against these Evil Ungulates...

 Are these also Evil Ungulates? 




BLM Program.


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## rockbot (Feb 12, 2012)

Thank you all for your support. []

 No name yet Red.[] He is 3/4 hybrid, 1/4 saint croix.


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## andy volkerts (Feb 12, 2012)

My original reply was to Rockbots question, how could a human kill an animal like his sweet little guy. I dont know is what i wrote. The human ability to kill defensless species never ceases to amaze me, that was my Syria referance. I find none of this amusing or humerous in any way whatsever and was not saying so. I really feel for members such as Rockbot who face this cruelty and stupidity every day, and if he will give me an addy for one of his representatives in Hawaii I will tell that rep what i think of there acts. Keep up the good work Rocky, the idiots need to be educated or thrown out!!


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## surfaceone (Feb 12, 2012)

Glad you clarified, Andy,

 I think you're still heading for non sequitur of the year though...[8D]


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## Plumbata (Feb 12, 2012)

This is alarming, but if you remember the map Surf posted which color-coded the states from most to least free (with Hawaii being the amongst least free out of the 5 tiers) this foolishness makes sense, unfortunately. 

 My father always said that my generation would see the loss of personal privacy and individual liberties. Seems like it is happening far faster than he predicted. []

 Good luck Rocky, and even if you and your fellow protesters aren't successful, at least you got out and tried to stand up for your righteous principles. That's more than most people can say.


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## rockbot (Feb 12, 2012)

Once again, thank you all for your concerns and comments. We know we are fighting a losing battle.  I've made some new friends along the way and I know the
 politics at work around here can't take that away.

 I heard that in some other States they are going to require a permit to protest if more the two people get together. I don't know to much about it yet, but if anyone else has heard something similar please chime in.


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## surfaceone (Feb 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> These are slated to be shot from helicopters this month on the 21st and 22nd. They shoot babies and all. Heartless enviromentalism. []
> 
> The emperor has no clothes!


 
 Hey Tony,

 What do they do with the meat?

 Are they in favor of rationing the native lands? Is there a concept of native lands anymore in Hawaii?


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## cyberdigger (Feb 12, 2012)

> I heard that in some other States they are going to require a permit to protest if more the two people get together.


 
 In Jersey, there's no such thing as less than 2 people in one place.. it's usually more like 2,000 ..and 75 different languages being spoken.. so that permit biz ain't gonna fly here.. it KILLS me to think they're gonna fly around in copters and blow away wildlife, like the crappy idiots shooting bison for fun out the train windows and other horrors of the not so distant past.. how can individuals be so great and worthy, while nations of them are so sick and demented?


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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 [
 [/quote]


 Surf,

 They allow a few vehicles to come and get meat. Usually no more then 10. You need a permit for that too and they are very selective. Last year I tried to get in with a couple of photographers, one has done work with National Geographic, thought we could get some video of the carnage to help spread the word but they shut us down.

 A lot of the native peoples lands are managed by a State run entity so they have your token native doing the dirty work for them. They are eradicating all the ungulates from DLNR lands, National Parks, Department of Hawaiian Homes land (DHHL) and Bishop Estate lands. Office of Hawaiian affairs is in the mix as well and is another State run agency. Most Hawaiians are divided down line between these "State run" organizations.

 Hey Chuck,

 Keep in mind they have been shooting these animals since the 1980's. Well over 20,000 sheep have been shot from copters since then and currently only a few hundred remain.


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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

Last year the military got into trouble because they decided to shoot 500 goats out of one of their training areas. They open fired from a military copter blowing apart these goats with machine guns. A new commander took over the base and was a conservation nut. Thought he could do what every he wanted on a military base. The story was posted on the net for about 4 days and then it was jerked from sight. Total cover-up after.


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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

Images like this aren't uncommon.


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 13, 2012)

What's the problem? I do not see where they are taking action on private lands. What I read said 'Public Lands' which means govt. lands............lands owned by you and I. It's not yours so the owners [U.S. goverment] can do what they want.

 What's wrong w/ getting rid of non-native & invasive species? Goats and pigs are a really nasty and destructive bunch of critters That's the reason they are refered to as pests..........true you can eat them, but who would want to? Brown Tree Snakes, now that's a fun critter you should stock your islands with.

  Restore it to pre-Eurprean times? Happening all over the America. From tearing out dams on rivers to demoing cooling towers on nuclear plants. Get used to it.

  17 sq. miles? That's not much. From the way the article reads, that small patch feeds half the island. I bet it doesn't. I'd bet not more than 1/10 of 1%. If someone has enough time to run around in the jungle hunting and gathering, they should plant a garden. It produces more......much more.

 "Support your local hunters" does that translate to "The jungles belong to the gun nuts"?  listen, if ya think your going hungry and gotta hunt to survive, buy some fishing tackle or better yet  go to the grocery store.


 "Govt attacking our culture"...........that's funny  white folks in Polynesian lands saying something like that. Is that what the natives said a 100 or so years ago?

 ..........and exactly what is this culture the govt. is attacking?


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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

You are a perfect example of someone with no culture, and if you think Govt lands belong to you and I then you are a lost cause.
 No need to go any further, your stupidity is out shining the sun.




> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> What's the problem? I do not see where they are taking action on private lands. What I read said 'Public Lands' which means govt. lands............lands owned by you and I. It's not yours so the owners [U.S. goverment] can do what they want.
> 
> ...


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## RedGinger (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> 
> 
> "Govt attacking our culture"...........that's funny  white folks in Polynesian lands saying something like that. Is that what the natives said a 100 or so years ago?


 1. the total of the inherited ideas, beliefs, values, and knowledge, which constitute the shared bases of social action 
 I see culture as meaning, along with native practices and heritage, a way of life.  

 Hawaii is a melting pot of cultures that come from Polynesian, Portuguese, Philipinno, Japanese, Chinese, White, etc.


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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

I will try to stay on the high road on this.

 We are not only representing hunters but hikers, bikers, people that gather native plants for culture practices, bird watchers and other recreational users.
 Land issues are in the hearts of many. 

 Pat you are correct that hunters may occupy a few percent but we are the ones who enjoy the areas as the greater percentage of the population either can't, don't know how, or are just unable to and thus never really see or experience first hand what its like.
 The land issues that they see or hear about are derived from Conservation programs aired on the boob tube and conjured up by the media. They would have you believe that everything is in a crisis. 
 They are using the restoration of water sheds as a key component to this environmental movement.

 This is what we are fighting, the take over of public lands to be fenced and eradicated of all animals and off limits to all but a few conservation biologists. No public access!

 Once fenced and eradicated they will remove invasive plants by poisoning them. Great idea, lets poison our watersheds. Monsanto (giant chemical company) has been a big part of this plant invasive species clan. I wonder why?
 Nice profits to be made poisoning our watersheds! they are currently paying farms 5 times their yearly farm salary for them to use their products including  GMO's.


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## Plumbata (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> You are a perfect example of someone with no culture, and if you think Govt lands belong to you and I then you are a lost cause.
> No need to go any further, *your stupidity is out shining the sun*.


 

 Bahahaha! []

 I am on your side Rocky, by all means keep fighting the good fight, but Pat does bring up some decent points. I have noticed over time that he likes to play the Devil's advocate and rile up discussions and arguments. I have done the same thing, but very recently learned the error of my ways. In reality he is a sharp fellow, I just think that bad things may have happened in his life which pushed him towards critical cynicism, and thus over time he has learned both how to push people's buttons very skillfully, and learned how to derive enjoyment/satisfaction from doing so. Only within the last week have i *found* and *understood* faith, and the goodness and grace which comes with it. Perhaps he has yet to discover the same?


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## surfaceone (Feb 13, 2012)

> Is that what the natives said a 100 or so years ago?


 
 Hey Pat,

 Thanks again. It is so amusing when you have one of your bouts of cultural constipation, and decide to cleanse your guts with this sort of digital droppings.

"The love of country is deep-
 seated in the breast of 
 every Hawaiian, 
 whatever his station"​- Queen Lili`uokalani​ 
"To prevent the shedding of
 blood of my people,
 natives and foreigners alike, I
 opposed armed interference, and quietly
 yielded to the armed forces
 brought against my throne....and
 have pursued the path of peace..."​- Queen Lili`uokalani​ 
"I owed no allegiance to
 the Provisional
 Government so 
 established,
 nor to any power or to any one
 save the will of my people and
 the welfare of my country."​- Queen Lili`uokalani​ 




​


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## bostaurus (Feb 13, 2012)

This does not relate to this topic directly but it does in a broader sense to what is happening around us including things in this topic.  This guy is my favorite politician..if I can even say that!
 It is a long speech but well worth the time.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BujuEpGmKMg#!


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 13, 2012)

I've been called worse, by better. []


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## Plumbata (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> I've been called worse, by better. []


 

 To judge by your interpersonal "skills", this statement is probably the most true thing you've ever written, most certainly backed up by thousands of altercations where the righteous have shined the light of truth upon your multitudinous failings... []


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## cyberdigger (Feb 13, 2012)

Ahh, more forum fun.. great..


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: cyberdigger
> 
> Ahh, more forum fun.. great..


 
 It always is Charlie.

 Now if Rocky,Surfe or Plumb can tell me what right they have to dictate the happenings on land that does not belong to them. Please, I'm all ears

 They do not own it or hold a lease on said land.

 If they can convince me that the 17 sq. miles in question, out of over 4,000 sq. miles that makes up the island is the key to the entire nutritional  sustenance needs of the archipelago.

 Show me how non-native invasive species is beneficial to the population as a whole.

 Is hunting a right or a privilege?

 Peroid.


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## surfaceone (Feb 13, 2012)

> Now if Rocky,Surfe or Plumb can tell me what right they have to dictate the happenings on land that does not belong to them.


 
 Hey Patsy,

 Golly, now you want to dictate the terms of the discussion, too. A minute or two ago, you said,



> lands............lands owned by you and I. It's not yours so the owners [U.S. goverment] can do what they want.


 
 I don't believe that Tony, Plumb, or I were doing any dictating. Tony was protesting the actions of DNLR agents and other bureaucrats in "our" government. I was saying, "Right on, Tony." with a fist pump. Plumb was trying to psychologically plumb your dark waters, and help model some communication "skills."

 You'll agree that legal protest, discussion of governmental affairs, and the policies concocted by Mr. Abercrombie's Tribbles, are still things we have the right to discuss and question.



> If they can convince me that the 17 sq. miles in question, out of over 4,000 sq. miles that makes up the island is the key to the entire nutritional  sustenance needs of the archipelago.


 
 You'll have to maneuver your own durn strawmen, by your own self.



> Is hunting a right or a privilege?


 Is that a trick question?



> Peroid.


 Nicely, put, Patsy. You're a credit to ole Chinquapin Falls.


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## cyberdigger (Feb 13, 2012)

I used to love set-to's like this, and I still find them fascinating.. then one afternoon I awoke from a nap and learned I had been made a moderator.. then I suddenly became cybercop, and it becaME QUITE INAPPROPRIATE FOR ME TO GET IN THE FRAY.. (oops) ..in the last couple months, though, I've come to realize that sparring is human nature, and to sterilize the forum of any such thing would not be good for ratings.. so, my friends, go ahead and hack away at each other! Just be clever about it, and leave out the potty mouth.. []


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## Wheelah23 (Feb 13, 2012)




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## rockbot (Feb 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Ahh finally a good set a questions that I can happily answer.

 We do not hold a lease on the land. It once belong to the Hawaiian Kingdom. In the Hawaii State constitution it is the right of Native Hawaiians to gather and hunt in all lands of Hawaii including private lands. Military is excluded.

 The area in question is 6,600 acres or 17 miles of fence. They already took the adjacent parcel in the 1980's and that was 18,000 acres. The National park has the adjacent parcel to that and thats another 333,000 acres. Hakalau forest reserve is another 38,000 acres. Much more around the other parts of the Island.

 Removing ungulates causes massive increases in invasive plants with no way to control it. This is a wetland and upper dryland forest area. 
 A ten year study was done that proves it. I'll will post it as its very technical and thorough.


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## Plumbata (Feb 13, 2012)

So, well over 600 square miles have been closed to hunters on the island in the recent past? Certainly some good huntin' land too. It is a terrible thing Rocky, what's next? Will Hawaii go the way of Oregon and make it illegal to dig antique bottles too?



> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> Nicely, put, Patsy. You're a credit to ole Chinquapin Falls.


 
 Normally I leave spelling/grammatical errors alone, but wow surf, that had me laughing for 2 minutes straight. I love it when you get riled up. []


 Some time ago Pat posted something to the effect of "Why should you expect people with a 19th century mind to operate in accord with a 21st century society", stated in support of racism and/or bigotry and in protest of political correctness. Must be a South Carolina thing. I was so appalled by the statement that I couldn't help remembering it.

 I find it strange that Pat could believe that such despicable ignorance is justified, while at the same time going to bat for the laws and social structure responsible for the problems which this 21st century society has brought down upon the liberties and rights which those of the 19th century enjoyed (such as hunting ungulates (nice word BTW) on public/Gov't lands).

 With all that being the case, it is even more strange that he would post something like this earlier today:




> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> I don't have a double standard. Never have.


 
 hmmmm.....

 So either the fellow is schizophrenic, or he seriously loves to argue and stir the turds whether or not he believes what he says. In internet parlance, such people are called trolls. One should avoid feeding the trolls.





> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> A ten year study was done that proves it. I'll will post it as its *very technical and thorough*.


 



> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> *Peroid.*


 

 Uhhm, Rocky, I have a feeling that you might just be wasting your time if you choose to post that. You are familiar enough with ungulates to know that one shouldn't cast pearls before _swine_.


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## rockbot (Feb 14, 2012)

Hey Plumb, The Cousins brothers who post a lot of digging videos out of Hawaii got their miranda's read to them last year. Apparently they were digging on State land unknowingly of course.



 Thanks for the link Melinda. The part about culture really hit home!


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## andy volkerts (Feb 14, 2012)

Hey Rocky, It is also unlawful here in California to dig on state land, including our national forest areas, but I know of a lot of diggers who are active wont mention the areas(dont want to help the BLM nazis) I think we are possibly  more restrictive than Hawaii regarding what ya cant do on so called public land...........


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## RedGinger (Feb 14, 2012)

It's the same way here.  If it's state land, you cannot dig.  Of course, you can hike and spot cellar holes and artifacts and see where the archaeologists from the local university have dug and put up their flags [&:]


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## rockbot (Feb 14, 2012)

What I find ironic about this water shed restoration plan is that once the ungulates are removed they will have to herbicide the invasive plants thus
 poisoning our watersheds for decades to come.

 Yes, lets poison the water shed. Does that sound right?

 Is this a common practice?


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## Penn Digger (Feb 14, 2012)

>


 

 Tony,

 Love the picture!!! Keep at it, good for you!  I have had a history of "holding the government's feet to the fire."

 Long story short,  when I moved back from NYC to the small PA town I grew up in and bought a building on Main Street, the "City" kept sticking their nose in my business and "telling me" what I needed to do or was supposed to do with the building according to them.  I never paid much attention to politics until then. I started to focus on how local things were run and my eyes bulged out of my head.  IDIOTS!!!!  

 I bought another building on Main Street for a song.  The "City" was all over me about what I was going to do with it.  They had pictures of it in their Main Street managers office as for sale or rent.  Their actions got me PO.  I threatened to open up an "adult club."  The "City" illegally enacted ordinances against me.  End result, I sold the building to them 2 and 1/2 months after I bought it for double what I paid for it because they broke the law!!!  IDIOTS again!

 I then used to put up hand painted signs about our local officials and their nonsense... nepotism, laziness, corruption, lies, political favors, dirty cops......I first put up one sign on an old barber shop I owned (we had a few digs later there that were posted here), the "City" then charged me criminally for violating an historic building ordinance.  So, I then kept putting up signs that covered the whole front of the building eventually and they charged me criminally for each one of them.   It became a local attraction, people would stop and take photos of the building.  Fox News even came from NYC and had Michael Kennedy (son of the late RFK Sr) did a story on it.

 People thought I was a nut a first.  I ended up in Federal Court several times.  The City changed their local ordinances several times to comply and all the charges were dropped.  This transpired over several years.  Through the course of this locals realized that the nutty sign guy made sense and I was eventually elected to City Council and then Mayor.  All of those people I used to put signs up about are now gone.  I just ran for re-election and I was the only candidate on the ballot!!!

 In summation, I know it is only a small city here in PA.  I have suffered a lot of personal damage in my life because of my actions.  I have been arrested and jailed and worse...death threats.  It may seem fruitless to most, but standing up for what you believe in can reward fruit.  If more Americans did this and voted we could get our Cities, States and Country back on track and away from the special interests, corporations and lobbyists.

 If any should doubt my story... google it. You'll figure it out.

 You the MAN Tony, keep it going on!

 Above all, I love old bottles, especially the locals.

 Best Regards,

 PD


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## Penn Digger (Feb 15, 2012)

*Love your home town*

I should also note that in the middle of this mess I fell in love with my home town and it's local history.  The bottle bug only later fueled this passion. Thus the obsession with local bottles.  I already had had the general bottle bug from JoeTheCrow.

 PD


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## rockbot (Feb 15, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

Great story PD and your trial and tribulations has inspired me. Thank you!

 Our governor has declared Hawaii a disaster area due to the drought. This is incredible because now they can bypass the EIS that would have been required. Under this emergency appropriation, they can eradicate and poison our forests. They want to drop poison from copters to kill the rats in the forest and
 use Monsanto herbicides to kill invasive plants. I assume they will have to hunt out or poison the feral pigs as well.

 We had two months of rain back in Nov., Dec. and now we are three weeks without rain. The whole forest/water shed issue is a fallacy, we get 100 to 200 inches a rain a year . More water then anywhere else in Hawaii!

 Monsanto supplied the DLNR with herbicide a few years ago to poison and kill off several mangroves around the Island. These guys are in bed with the Governor
 as I am sure they supported his campaign quite well.[:'(]


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## Plumbata (Feb 15, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

Monsanto eh? I f'ing hate that corporation, they are so evil on so many levels. My father, a chemical engineer and patent adviser/technology transfer coordinator for the USDA has seen first-hand how they are evil as well, though he can't divulge certain sensitive bits of information. He certainly can divulge the fact that he hates them with a bloody red passion too.

 Seriously, what is happening to this world? When Monsanto obtains patents for human genetics, will we need to pay them a royalty every time we take a breath?


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## rockbot (Feb 15, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

This really hits home with me Plumb!
 I'm starting to believe in some of the conspiracy theorist.[]



> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> Monsanto eh? I f'ing hate that corporation, they are so evil on so many levels. My father, a chemical engineer and patent adviser/technology transfer coordinator for the USDA has seen first-hand how they are evil as well, though he can't divulge certain sensitive bits of information. He certainly can divulge the fact that he hates them with a bloody red passion too.
> 
> Seriously, what is happening to this world? When Monsanto obtains patents for human genetics, will we need to pay them a royalty every time we take a breath?


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 15, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*



> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> Great story PD and your trial and tribulations has inspired me. Thank you!
> 
> ...


 

 Man,...spraying poison is pretty awful. I'm not in the thick of things and even I'm aware of evil Monsanto...


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## RedGinger (Feb 15, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

Anyone who is not aware of the evils of Monsanto should watch, "Food Inc."   It is a hard documentary to watch, but worth it in the knowledge you will gain.  Unfortunately, this knowledge puts some of us in a difficult position as you will really re-think the food you eat and be heartbroken from the stories. It takes some $ to be able to eat all organic.


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## rockbot (Feb 16, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

I haven't seen that documentary but will now.

 Yes Joe something crazy for sure.

 A lady friend of mine works for the Coalition for the Homeless here in Hilo and recently they got shut down due to no funding. Our poor are hurting and the Gov will spend monies to kill wildlife! sick I tell you... sick!



> ORIGINAL:  RedGinger
> 
> Anyone who is not aware of the evils of Monsanto should watch, "Food Inc."   It is a hard documentary to watch, but worth it in the knowledge you will gain.  Unfortunately, this knowledge puts some of us in a difficult position as you will really re-think the food you eat and be heartbroken from the stories. It takes some $ to be able to eat all organic.


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## surfaceone (Feb 16, 2012)

*RE: Love your home town*

Hey Rock,

 He's getting a great deal of outside support: Abercrombie Bucks...

 But, he was very PRO Cash for Clunkers, and... supports Protection of Free Roaming Burros & Horses. Say, aren't they evil ungulates?


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## surfaceone (Feb 16, 2012)

Hey Tony,

 Did'ya see how Monsanto influences the Abercrombie wing?

 :One reason for the unevenness of that playing field may be campaign spending. The current legislature is awash in money from corporations such as Monsanto, Pfizer, E. I. Dupont de Nemeurs, Syngenta and AstraZeneca, which have invested heavily in GMO crops. Monsanto alone spread campaign donations among at least 35 Hawaiâ€™i candidates in the 2010 election cycle. House Health Committee Chair Ryan Yamane, for instance, got $500 from Monsanto, $550 from Pfizer, and $250 from AstraZeneca. (A Yamane staffer, however, told BIW that the decision to defer HR 154 was made by committee vice-chair Dee Morikawa. BIW could trace no biotech contributions to her 2010 campaign. As of the deadline for this article Morikawa had not returned our call.) But even if HR 154 had survived the Health Committee, its next stop would have been the Consumer Protection and Commerce Committee, which is chaired by South Hawaiâ€™i Rep. Bob Herkes, who got $1,550 from Monsanto and Pfizer. The committeeâ€™s co-chair: Yamane.

 Over in the Senate, the Agriculture Committee that deferred or held three GMO bills is chaired by Clarence Nishihara, who got $750 from Monsanto.

 Herkes isnâ€™t the only Big Island legislator who benefited from Monsantoâ€™s largesse, even though most, if not all, of Monsantoâ€™s seed corn is grown on other islands. Rep. Jerry Chang (South Hilo, Keaukaha) got $1000 from Monsanto. Former Sen. Russell Kokubun, who became Abercrombieâ€™s Secretary of Agriculture, got $21000 from Monsanto, Dupont and Pfizer. Former Sen. Dwight Takamine, who also resigned to join Abercrombieâ€™s cabinet, got $250 from Pfizer and $150 from Dupont. Mark Nakashima (Kohala, Hamakua, Hilo)and Sen. Josh Green (Kona) each got $500 from Monsanto. But the biggest local beneficiary has been Rep. Clift Tsuji (S. Hilo, Panaâ€™ewa, Keaâ€™au, Kurtistown), who received $1,000 from Monsanto, $500 from Syngenta and $2,0000 from DuPont. In August of 2010, the Biotechnology Industry Organization named Tsuji and House Speaker Calvin Say (another member of Monsantoâ€™s $1,000 club) as "BIO Co-legislators of the Year." From  Genetically Modified Legislature?


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## rockbot (Feb 17, 2012)

Very good info and will be very helpful. Thanks Surf![]



> Hey Tony,
> 
> Did'ya see how Monsanto influences the Abercrombie wing?
> 
> ...


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## bostaurus (Feb 17, 2012)

This is from Jonah Goldberg's column today.  He is vacationing in Hawaii.  It relates to this topic...sort of... but in a humorous way.  Thought you might like it.


 "The Hawaiian Islands are a perfect place to research invasive species. There are no native non-marine mammals or reptiles here (with the exception of one ludicrous bat). Everything that walks or crawls here was brought either by the original Polynesian settlers or by WhiteyÂ®. In the late 1800s, sugar-plantation owners imported mongooses (not mongeese, alas) in the hope that they'd kill the invasive population of rats. Unfortunately, this was what biologists call "a really stupid idea" (the phrase sounds smarter in Latin). The rats are mostly nocturnal. The mongooses are diurnal (which is not to be confused with "die urinal!" -- something Gary Busey screams when trying to punish bathroom fixtures with his highly acidic pee).


 The result is that the two mammals basically pass each other like the sheepdogs punching in and out of work in the old Wile E. Coyote cartoons.


 The islands have a huge population of lizards -- all of them were introduced as well by the tag-team of Polynesian and the Man (not to be confused with the short-lived NBC 1970s crime-fighting "dramedy" Polly Nezian & the Man.


 I like having the lizards around because they eat bugs and I don't like bugs. The downside is they crap all over the place like Keith Moon in a hotel room.




 "There's a lot of hoopla over the horrors of invasive species, but my view is that they are a mixed blessing. They do less damage than people usually claim. My friend Ronald Bailey has written a lot on the subject and notes that invasive species increase biodiversity and do not lead to extinctions. Indeed, Macalester College biologist Mark A. Davis wrote in the journal BioScience in 2003 that "there is no evidence that even a single long term resident species has been driven to extinction, or even extirpated within a single U.S. state, because of competition from an introduced plant species."


 But that doesn't mean that invasive species are always a net good. I'm not a biological egalitarian. I think some species are better than other species. Better how? Well, for lots of reasons, but most of them boil down to "Better because I like them more." I would be heartbroken to see the tiger go. The loss of a species of dung beetle wouldn't bother me too much, if there were no significant larger ramifications.


 Anyway, I'll be researching these ideas intensely between tropical drinks because Goldberg never takes a vacation, Mr. Taxman."


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## glass man (Feb 17, 2012)

Hey don't be mean to PAT ..he has a right to his opinon too..don't he?Most times I see conservatives mocking people that want to preserve things..like rain forests..whales..the spotted owl where they want to strip the forest of the trees, the Alaskan wilderness for oil,on and on...

 wild pigs can grow in population at an unbelievable rate and are aggesive..get huge and carry diseases that gets into water systems.Hey watch old yeller again to find out...They were brought here by the Spanish long long ago and they do better in the wild then domasticated and travel in packs.

 BUT hey ROCKO you live there and it means alot to you..I don't always know whats right..but like you so go for it!..But it seems many consevtives don't want the gov. around unless they want the gov. around for their purposes...

 Of course round here it ain't the gov. that keeps us off the huge beautiful tracks of land that we could go fishing,hunting,etc. on most all the land even though not ours..but all took care of the land..now becuse folks from ATLANTA have moved here and bought it all up..it is all no trespassing..it is their right..but still sad I can't go to any of the beautiful spots I could as a boy..but it belongs to them!

 The gov. owned land should belong to all us..but I can't go build a house at any of em...just go there and do what ever I want to...cause..yes it belongs to us...but only it seems in a symbolic sence..the WHITE HOUSE belongs to the people too,but dammit I can't move into the Lincon bef room..but how I would love too !Now I don't understand why they will be getting rid of things like "passion fruit"..I mean if they are gonna get rid of it why not let the people do it slowly...

 Any way good luck to ya man!JAMIE


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## rockbot (Feb 17, 2012)

God bless you Jamie! I agree with you 100%
 Its a fine line we must walk but I lose my balance now and then.[]


 Thanks for the laugh Melinda!


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## surfaceone (Feb 17, 2012)

From.


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## surfaceone (Feb 17, 2012)

Yah, Tony,

 You see Dis Here?


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## surfaceone (Feb 17, 2012)

Aloha Tony,

 The more I find, "Privatizing Hawaii's Public Lands," the worse it gets.






 "Stanford Dole (center) proclaiming himself President of the Republic of Hawaii on July 4th 1894."


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## andy volkerts (Feb 18, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 [][][][][] Yeah, and our wonderful Supreme Court gave these monsters the power to buy all of our politicians for the next zillion years ( But only the ones who werent allready bought) !!!   And you accuse me of not planning ahead BWAHAHAHAHA


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## glass man (Feb 18, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 The Vietnam War was a boom time for my little town!We made AGENT ORANGE,NAPALM,and the main small bulldozer called the "ROME PLOW" which ws used to clear off land in NAM,,company  started earlier in Rome GA. 23 miles from here,but before the war moved  here.

 The price we pay for all those jobs?[the chemical co. has since moved on..too late] We have the highest rate of cancer in the state!!

 We are in Appalacia..and were poor[still are] but we had a nice big  beautiful creek they could run off crap into!Started in 1956...I went back and read how fish by the thousands were dying[my dad said best he could count there were about a thousand in one whirlpool alone! BEAUTIFUL FISH..large mouth bass,crappie,huge bream,shad,pike,trout,cat fishand many others..dad said during the DEPRESSION his family would take a wagon with some salt,pepper,flower.etc and the large family could live off fish,frog legs and turtles for two weeks...now only very small bream basically can be caught and it is not advisable to eat any thing caught there![&o]]...people from the University of GA. came down to find out why[8|]..in the paper it said no one is pointing fingers mind you [the chem. plant where the jobs were] Well low and behold the air was being taken out of the water some how..???WONDER HOW? Nothing at all was done to correct this..the co. lasted from 56- sometime into the 80s!

 Then like I said the NAM war came along and hot damn jobs for all that wanted one! Many got cancer[the wore smocks that went down right above the pelvis area...they must have been doing something with radiation to from what I have heard..many got cancer in the pelvis region..but hey we needed money!..but no one knows if it was from working there..nod nod wink wink...the crap that got into the creek,that once had 9 pound trout,got backed up during floods and got into our drinking water...many many had been dying of cancer for many years!

 Once while walking down the creek on a warm may day looking for bottles..I looked up to where the stuff from the chem. plant..they didnt even try to hide it..it looked like a stream running into the creek except this stream had STEAM coming off it!I took a few steps past and all of a sudden I steped into a soft silt that came bubbling up and smelled like suffer!I got out quick...Evidenty the stuff doesn't wash away in floods but just lies on bottom for  ever?

  bottles gotten out of there had solid black stuff on them that could never be completely cleaned off!!

 This was once a beautiful place...never again!YEP PROTECT IT IF YOU CAN..BUT WHEN IT COMES TO BIG INTEREST,MONEY,GREED..GOOD LUCK..THAT IS REALLY WHAT IS HAPPENING TO AMERICA..GREED FOR A FEW ..SIDES DON'T MATTER!  IT will take the effort of the masses to stop this...but we are broken into factions...just the way they like it!!JAMIE


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## rockbot (Feb 18, 2012)

As I said before, thank you all for the support and I've taken some of this info to my last meeting.

 The best part of this protest is that we've got people from all faiths, political parties and income classes coming together.

 Now if we can get the politicians to step up to the plate and give us answers...

 Sustainability is what they got elected on, now one would think managing game would be a part of that.


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## bostaurus (Feb 18, 2012)

Another interesting article I just read in the March 2012 American Hunter that kind of follows along with what you are going through.
 I don't know if you have access to the magazine.  I can't find the article on the website.
 They killed the entire population of Roosevelt elk and Kaibab mule deer on Santa Rosa Island.  They were introduced animals but the population was kept under control by regulated hunting.  The neighboring island of Catalina has an introduced population of bison but it was decided they were a "heritage herd woven into the island's cultural and economic fabric" and they are allowed to stay ....at the cost of $175,000 per year for contraception....heavens forbid that the herd be controlled by hunting.
 I would say that the hunting on Hawaii has a better case for being declared a "heritage herd woven into the island's cultural and economic fabric" than the bison of Catalina.


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks Jamie. I tell ya it's hard to battle the pseudo intellectuals and the far right, but as long as they are there.


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## rockbot (Feb 19, 2012)

Very well put Melinda.

 I just had a bison burger for lunch and it was very tasty. Nice lean meat cooked medium rare with a cut of onions, lettuce and a jalapeno. 

 I am fortunate not to have to rely on the grocery store yet.[]




> ORIGINAL:  bostaurus
> 
> Another interesting article I just read in the March 2012 American Hunter that kind of follows along with what you are going through.
> I don't know if you have access to the magazine.  I can't find the article on the website.
> ...


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## surfaceone (Feb 20, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> Thanks Jamie. I tell ya it's hard to battle the pseudo intellectuals and the far right, but as long as they are there.


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## andy volkerts (Feb 20, 2012)

Hey Surf what was the big red X???????


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## Wheelah23 (Feb 20, 2012)

It was this... I second the motion.


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## surfaceone (Feb 20, 2012)

Past time...






 Way past time...


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## rockbot (Feb 20, 2012)

We made some progress last week. Next saturday we'll be holding a meeting with our State Senators and our Mayor if he shows up. We're looking at pulling in two to three hundred people with several of us giving testimony and some question and answer time.

 The link below shows the senate bill and who voted on it. Our three senators that represent our Island are,

 Malama Solomon, Gil Kahele, and Josh Green. Gil Kahele represents the district that we are protesting.

 The energy and environment (ENE) committee and water,land and housing (WLH) committee both passed the measure. Notice
 that Malama Solomon was excused.

 Josh Green represents the leeward side, the dry side of our island. They have a small watershed there but is voting to expand ours. In fact all the other
 senators are from the other islands and they all have a much smaller watershed and most of the population.

 So the question is... why do they need for us to expand our watershed, we have the most forest and rain of all the other islands? why aren't they concerned 
 with improving their own watershed? most of the population of Hawaii is on Oahu so they have the most representation. Expanding our watershed does nothing 
 for their Island.

 JUST A LAND GRAB under the disguise of protecting our watershed. The real deal is the environmentalist and their native species projects. The hell with everybody else!

 http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/measure_indiv.aspx?billtype=SB&billnumber=2782&year=2012


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## surfaceone (Feb 20, 2012)

> So the question is... why do they need for us to expand our watershed, we have the most forest and rain of all the other islands? why aren't they concerned
> with improving their own watershed? most of the population of Hawaii is on Oahu so they have the most representation. Expanding our watershed does nothing
> for their Island.


 
 Hey Rocky,

 Sounds like they're sizing up the Big Island as a possible water source? I don't know. What's the whole inter island rivalry and covetousness sweepstakes like? I know all the other islands revolve around Oahu...[8D] 

 I'm reminded of an old Fish Story of yours:



> ORIGINAL:  rockbot on 6/6/2010
> 
> We are blessed with some of the best waters on earth. I hope we can keep it that way.


 From.






 Favorite malolo...


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## rockbot (Feb 20, 2012)

Its kind a like this Surf...

 We the island of Hawaii and its people have always been good stewards on our land and island. We have the best natural resources and abundant sources of
 alternate energy. We are like this because we retard progress and exploitation. Oahu looks at us as much like lets say some City dweller to a southern boy.

 Several years ago Campbell estates ran out on a lease on a 30,000 acre property. The land was given to him by the Hawaiian kingdom and upon the end of the lease Campbell would give back the land to the Hawaiian kingdom. Well when lease expired the Kingdom of Oahu (State) quickly gated off the property and
 took control of the lease. The Hawaiian group Pele Defense had to battle them in court for years. Come to find out the State was drilling for geothermal and was 
 going to connect the Island of Oahu with a underwater power cable. No EIS no public input etc.

 This is just one incident! don't get me started..[]


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## rockbot (Feb 26, 2012)

We had a very successful meeting last night. Two of our House representatives came out and our district Senator was a no show! The legislative session is in a one week recess so he had no excuse. This public access issue is in his district. This is how the they represent us![:'(]

 A few pics of the near 300 in attendance.


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## rockbot (Feb 26, 2012)

Darn good turn out for a one week notice.


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## rockbot (Feb 26, 2012)

The capacity for this place was 300.


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## rockbot (Feb 26, 2012)

Now we have to hold the "NO SHOW" politicians accountable!

 The old Hawaiian man to the left is Uncle Ka'alawai. He has throat cancer but still took the time to take the mic and teach us what ALOHA is about! God bless him!


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## surfaceone (Feb 26, 2012)

Aloha Tony,

 Wow, 300 is an impressive turnout. I'm noticing some skeptical body language amongst some of the attendees. I hope y'all hold that AWOL senator's feet to the coals. Make him think he's at Thermopylae next time.

 You guys should invite him for a luau & goat roast, and some dreaded non-native pua'a.


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