# Best way to find bottles that were dumped in a deep, muddy river?



## MountainMan304 (Apr 17, 2022)

So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!


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## DeepSeaDan (Apr 17, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!


As an inveterate river-diver, I think I can help. The swift current may indeed have pushed bottles "way downstream", but that would depend on a number of factors, such as bottom material consistency, bottom elevation changes, obstructions ( natural and man-made ). These factors would contribute to the amount of bottles relocated & their condition - a gravelly/rocky bottom is hard on glass, causing 'river-rash' & breakage. Whether or not there are 'buried' bottles is, again, mostly a question of the nature of the bottom material & the degree of current at bottom level; the dredging you spoke of could be disastrous for surface & buried bottles and other artifacts. This river, in my estimation, sounds decidedly unpleasant & unsafe. What is the state of the water's cleanliness? What is the average velocity of the current? If the bottom is littered with large obstacles & trash, they could act as serious traps in low / no visibility water with a high velocity bottom current. I've worked as a commercial diver in such conditions & was very glad to have surface-supplied gas supply via umbilical tether, a surface support crew monitoring my communications and a stand-by diver at the ready to assist me if needed. I consider that a safe way to dive such conditions. At 50' you have, by PADI tables, an NDL of :80, but I'd be more concerned about your air consumption rate if things go south for you at depth. Then there is surface craft traffic - how many, how often & how large are the largest potential vessels overhead? Making an emergency ascent into large boat traffic is a recipe for disaster. If I were you, I'd look for safer environments to pursue your bottle diving urges!


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 17, 2022)

DeepSeaDan said:


> As an inveterate river-diver, I think I can help. The swift current may indeed have pushed bottles "way downstream", but that would depend on a number of factors, such as bottom material consistency, bottom elevation changes, obstructions ( natural and man-made ). These factors would contribute to the amount of bottles relocated & their condition - a gravelly/rocky bottom is hard on glass, causing 'river-rash' & breakage. Whether or not there are 'buried' bottles is, again, mostly a question of the nature of the bottom material & the degree of current at bottom level; the dredging you spoke of could be disastrous for surface & buried bottles and other artifacts. This river, in my estimation, sounds decidedly unpleasant & unsafe. What is the state of the water's cleanliness? What is the average velocity of the current? If the bottom is littered with large obstacles & trash, they could act as serious traps in low / no visibility water with a high velocity bottom current. I've worked as a commercial diver in such conditions & was very glad to have surface-supplied gas supply via umbilical tether, a surface support crew monitoring my communications and a stand-by diver at the ready to assist me if needed. I consider that a safe way to dive such conditions. At 50' you have, by PADI tables, an NDL of :80, but I'd be more concerned about your air consumption rate if things go south for you at depth. Then there is surface craft traffic - how many, how often & how large are the largest potential vessels overhead? Making an emergency ascent into large boat traffic is a recipe for disaster. If I were you, I'd look for safer environments to pursue your bottle diving urges!


Thanks for the in-depth reply! I wasn't planning on diving it, trust me, I've never gone diving in my life and the idea of diving in this river sends chills up my spine. Its water velocity ranges from 5-0.8 ft/s (from data of the last year). While historically it's a dirty river due to the chemical companies which once dominated the area, it's been cleaned up and now fishing and swimming are popular. My question more pertained to whether I would find the bottles downstream at a shallower point. The river bottom varies in depth and material quite a bit. There are sudden drop offs and many points are more muddy/silty than rocky, though this changes every now and then as you go down the river. A dozen or so miles downstream the river is fairly shallow, with wading possible (but, of course, the current is much greater here due to this shallower depth).

The dredging wasn't and isn't widespread, only happening when regions are having problems with flooding. Looking back on this question, I realized it was kind of stupid as lord only knows where those bottles are now (lost to time, probably).


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## Fenndango (Apr 17, 2022)

Bottles tend to to stay in place even in really fast currents. 

I was in N.S. and they banned bottle diving but I visited a bottle shop somewhere there and the guy said people were using underwater cameras and claws or grabbers of some sort and running everything from the boat.


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## Mailman1960 (Apr 17, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!


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## Mailman1960 (Apr 17, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!





MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!


Shallow areas try some rubber boots steel toes, kick around and a pitch fork and fish net. 
After you kick a few bottles you'll no what it feels like.


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 18, 2022)

Fenndango said:


> Bottles tend to to stay in place even in really fast currents.
> 
> I was in N.S. and they banned bottle diving but I visited a bottle shop somewhere there and the guy said people were using underwater cameras and claws or grabbers of some sort and running everything from the boat.





Mailman1960 said:


> Shallow areas try some rubber boots steel toes, kick around and a pitch fork and fish net.
> After you kick a few bottles you'll no what it feels like.


Thanks guys, that's a good idea. I'm thinking with a few engineering friends and a degree in physics, we can rig something pretty decent up. I'm wondering about the legality and environmental impacts, as we would undoubtedly be seen at the confluence of the two major rivers since it's right downtown. I'll brainstorm and update you guys if I end up making something lol.


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 18, 2022)

DeepSeaDan said:


> As an inveterate river-diver, I think I can help. The swift current may indeed have pushed bottles "way downstream", but that would depend on a number of factors, such as bottom material consistency, bottom elevation changes, obstructions ( natural and man-made ). These factors would contribute to the amount of bottles relocated & their condition - a gravelly/rocky bottom is hard on glass, causing 'river-rash' & breakage. Whether or not there are 'buried' bottles is, again, mostly a question of the nature of the bottom material & the degree of current at bottom level; the dredging you spoke of could be disastrous for surface & buried bottles and other artifacts. This river, in my estimation, sounds decidedly unpleasant & unsafe. What is the state of the water's cleanliness? What is the average velocity of the current? If the bottom is littered with large obstacles & trash, they could act as serious traps in low / no visibility water with a high velocity bottom current. I've worked as a commercial diver in such conditions & was very glad to have surface-supplied gas supply via umbilical tether, a surface support crew monitoring my communications and a stand-by diver at the ready to assist me if needed. I consider that a safe way to dive such conditions. At 50' you have, by PADI tables, an NDL of :80, but I'd be more concerned about your air consumption rate if things go south for you at depth. Then there is surface craft traffic - how many, how often & how large are the largest potential vessels overhead? Making an emergency ascent into large boat traffic is a recipe for disaster. If I were you, I'd look for safer environments to pursue your bottle diving urges!


Also, I should have asked: In muddy, silty bottoms, do bottles and other artifacts typically go deep beneath the bed of the river or does a swift current typically prevent them being buried deeply?


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## DeepSeaDan (Apr 20, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> Also, I should have asked: In muddy, silty bottoms, do bottles and other artifacts typically go deep beneath the bed of the river or does a swift current typically prevent them being buried deeply?


Depends on the bottom material's consistency, the depth of the material ( over the hard, natural bottom below the sediment ) & the average rate of flow at the river bottom. If the bottom sediment is deep and the water flow isn't sufficient to substantially move the sediments downstream, then anything with enough weight is going to sink into the sediment. In my experience, the natural state of the river bottom is rarely uniform, and typically changes over time, as varying directions of water current move material around. Most places I dive have a granite bedrock bottom, with a hard clay cap & large amount of sand overburden. Year by year, the sands shift, particularly in shallower water, alternately covering & un-covering areas of the river bottom, thereby revealing items once hidden, or, regrettably, covering over items once visible. Certainly keeps it interesting!


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## RCO (Apr 20, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!



there is likely bottles there , not sure you'd ever recover any , unless there is some downstream 

i've found bottles in rivers here but there small freshwater rivers and mostly checking near docks or places where people spent time years ago and most of the bottles i find are 40's > 60's era never anything rare


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## NC btl-dvr (Apr 20, 2022)

Yes there are bottles there, will you be able to get them, probably not. Bottle from the era you're talking about were pretty heavy and sank rapidly. I doubt they've moved much but if one did happen to roll a few miles down river I'm not sure it would be worth finding.


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## octavian8 (Apr 20, 2022)

Wait for a major drought and then try the banks and low areas.


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## K6TIM (Apr 20, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> So, in my large city there's no way to legally or practically dive into the river which runs through town. On the vast majority of records, all trash was dumped into it prior to city-wide sanitation services which began in 1914. The river itself is 50 feet deep with a swift current, boat traffic, and inches of visibility; on the fire department is allowed to dive in rescue scenarios. Do you think with such a swift current that the bottles may have ended up way downstream in a shallower area? Or do you think they're buried in time underneath the water near the floor where the current may not be so swift? They dredge it every now and then, but that's a restricted, highly regulated thing the city does and the banks of the river were redone with rocks to prevent erosion, which took out the first few feet of the bank. Maybe it's hopeless and just made the bottles more rare, but I figured I'd ask!


Sometimes you find your oldest bottles in both lakes and riversThey sometime wash-up on shore line!


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 20, 2022)

NC btl-dvr said:


> Yes there are bottles there, will you be able to get them, probably not. Bottle from the era you're talking about were pretty heavy and sank rapidly. I doubt they've moved much but if one did happen to roll a few miles down river I'm not sure it would be worth finding.





octavian8 said:


> Wait for a major drought and then try the banks and low areas.


Thanks guys for all the advice. They dumped (bottlers and everyone in the city, as well as the trash dump from 1914-1920) in one of the river which flows into the other (the confluence is right downtown). I looked at nautical chart and depth map and it seems like the deepest (20-50 feet) parts are _upstream. _Everything within city limits and for a decent way downstream is 5-10 feet. So I'll likely get a net and a kayak (or someone with a boat) and just try out scraping the bottom along certain spots. I'll probably go lurk around the banks and low areas before anything else, but the area uses locks and dams to ensure the water level stays high enough for boat traffic. Plus it's just a pain getting down to the waterline, with all the boulders, modern glass, and needles lol. But hey may as well give it a shot and if nothing else hop in a kayak. Even if I don't get anything old I'll get some trash out of the river!


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## Mailman1960 (Apr 21, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> Thanks guys for all the advice. They dumped (bottlers and everyone in the city, as well as the trash dump from 1914-1920) in one of the river which flows into the other (the confluence is right downtown). I looked at nautical chart and depth map and it seems like the deepest (20-50 feet) parts are _upstream. _Everything within city limits and for a decent way downstream is 5-10 feet. So I'll likely get a net and a kayak (or someone with a boat) and just try out scraping the bottom along certain spots. I'll probably go lurk around the banks and low areas before anything else, but the area uses locks and dams to ensure the water level stays high enough for boat traffic. Plus it's just a pain getting down to the waterline, with all the boulders, modern glass, and needles lol. But hey may as well give it a shot and if nothing else hop in a kayak. Even if I don't get anything old I'll get some trash out of the river!


Did I miss what city you're in? If it's a major city, your certainly not the first person to do this. Some bottles are worth some good money. Try reaching out to some older (61but I can still move some real-estate) diggers.  I did and got some great stories and places to try.


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 21, 2022)

Mailman1960 said:


> Did I miss what city you're in? If it's a major city, your certainly not the first person to do this. Some bottles are worth some good money. Try reaching out to some older (61but I can still move some real-estate) diggers. I did and got some great stories and places to try.



Eh, I’ve only heard of one other digger from an old Facebook thread. Every spot I’ve been to is untouched so far. I’ve posted on here before looking for digging buddies, but there’s no one in the general area it seems. I’m in Charleston, WV which is about 200,000 in the metro area 2020 and probably 300,000 in 1970–not too big, not too small. It’s really surprising that I haven’t been in any deadends yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mailman1960 (Apr 21, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> Eh, I’ve only heard of one other digger from an old Facebook thread. Every spot I’ve been to is untouched so far. I’ve posted on here before looking for digging buddies, but there’s no one in the general area it seems. I’m in Charleston, WV which is about 200,000 in the metro area 2020 and probably 300,000 in 1970–not too big, not too small. It’s really surprising that I haven’t been in any deadends yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It took me 2 1/2 years to have someone contact me thru this forum. I tell people what I do, show them what I find next thing I know 4 really good people that can't do it anymore but like helping me out. A little bigger area, Chicago but it took a long time to make contacts.


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 21, 2022)

Mailman1960 said:


> It took me 2 1/2 years to have someone contact me thru this forum. I tell people what I do, show them what I find next thing I know 4 really good people that can't do it anymore but like helping me out. A little bigger area, Chicago but it took a long time to make contacts.


I met a forum member through here--and older digger--from another state that's been helping me with mapping technology and looking at spots with me that I've picked out. I'm sure there are some lurkers on here or they just didn't see it, you're right. It's probably a matter of finding something good to show them it's worth it hahahaha


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## Harry Pristis (Apr 21, 2022)

*A clam rake is a possibility.  There are also oyster-collecting tongs:  https://thisfish.info/fishery/eastern-oyster-tongs-pei/




*


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 21, 2022)

Harry Pristis said:


> *A clam rake is a possibility.  There are also oyster-collecting tongs:  https://thisfish.info/fishery/eastern-oyster-tongs-pei/
> 
> View attachment 236377*


Genius idea! Thank you. Now just to find one long enough.


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## willong (Apr 29, 2022)

Harry Pristis said:


> A clam rake is a possibility.


You beat me to it Harry! 

I've been 600 miles away from home involved in a pressing and physically taxing project for past six weeks, or I would have offered the same suggestion. Haven't had much time and energy to spare for participating in this or another forum that I visit.

Also, my motorhome and most its contents, including my laptop, burned during the trip. I find cellphones frustrating compared to a computer with a keyboard. I'm home for a couple days to address some tasks before returning to the project in Montana; and I needed to take a break from wading through almost 1200 accumulated emails. I figured a visit to Antique Bottles.net would be less taxing than viewing additional videos of the Ukrainian's ordeal. Moreover, I've been following the adventures of *MountainMan304 *and a couple other members.


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## willong (Apr 29, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> Now just to find one long enough.


Extending a handle is easy enough. Pike poles, such as used by workers on log rafts, and boat hooks can be obtained in lengths up to at least 25 feet. The aluminum handle versions are quite light weight.

A 20' pike pole with fiberglass handle is available if you want non-conducting material for added safety should you ever be raking for bottles near energized cables.

Quick searches of "pike pole" or "boat hook" or perhaps even just "20' fiberglass pole" will return plenty of choices in material, lengths and prices. I found examples with D-handle ends that might be desirable if you are attempting to pull the rake through thick, sticky mud.






A lower cost, albeit heavier and less ridgid alternative would be PVC pipe. I think one could add sufficient rigidity by filling a PVC handle with expanding urethane foam, which should float the tool should you ever lose grip.


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## MountainMan304 (Apr 30, 2022)

willong said:


> Extending a handle is easy enough. Pike poles, such as used by workers on log rafts, and boat hooks can be obtained in lengths up to at least 25 feet. The aluminum handle versions are quite light weight.
> 
> A 20' pike pole with fiberglass handle is available if you want non-conducting material for added safety should you ever be raking for bottles near energized cables.
> 
> ...


Hey Will, good to see you drop back in! I hope things are progressing with your situations and a resolution to all of those misfortunes are in sight. Great ideas with using a pike pole or boat hook to extend the length of the clam rake.  It'd definitely be best to use something made of PVC, as there seem to be some underwater electrical lines laid. Graduation is coming soon, so hopefully I'll be able to test all of this theory we're throwing around and I can share the results within the month.


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## willong (Jun 1, 2022)

MountainMan304 said:


> Hey Will, good to see you drop back in! I hope things are progressing with your situations and a resolution to all of those misfortunes are in sight. Great ideas with using a pike pole or boat hook to extend the length of the clam rake.  It'd definitely be best to use something made of PVC, as there seem to be some underwater electrical lines laid. Graduation is coming soon, so hopefully I'll be able to test all of this theory we're throwing around and I can share the results within the month.


Have you had any bottle hunting adventures in the past month; ever rake that muddy river bottom yet?


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## MountainMan304 (Jun 1, 2022)

willong said:


> Have you had any bottle hunting adventures in the past month; ever rake that muddy river bottom yet?


Unfortunately not. Employment isn't the talk of the town in West Virginia right now--clam rakes and kayaks aren't too cheap! I have mapped a _ton _of places lately using KMZ overlays and historical documents in my time off, though. Waiting for the temperature to cool down so some of this underbrush dies out. Ticks are rampant lately! May try to go out soon, have had a few decent finds at the spot we've discussed. Just gotta tackle this arachnophobia first.


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