# "A lot of bottle collectors have gone underground"



## subsoil (Nov 21, 2007)

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004025049_webbottle20m.html


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 21, 2007)

> "People need to be sensitive," he said. "Once you move a bottle, once you move an arrowhead, the historical significance is reduced."


 
 The historical significance is greater when it's not known about? Duh, aaah, what?


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

http://science.jrank.org/pages/6540/Stratigraphy-Archeology.html


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks Ron, informative and it has it's place but... Blah blah. 
 We're talking Shi%^ers. Dating the age of the shi% doesn't date a bottle. What about that pontil that got tossed in for fill at the top in the teens or the 1860 penny that dropped down into a 1880 privy after it's dug.. Those rules just don't apply here.
 If I were to find an ancient artifact I'd want to tell the right people, whoever they may be.
 ...but 75 years, oh noo, Mr Bill! Pick up that 1930 soda off the side of the road and go directly to jail?


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## tigue710 (Nov 21, 2007)

Getting a lot grief for going on that show I see...  I dont know one way or an other if it was more good or more bad for the hobby but you wouldn't of caught me dead on that show!


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

Archaeological stratigraphy  _Main article: Archaeological stratigraphy_[/align]  In the field of archaeology, soil stratigraphy is used to better understand the processes that form and protect archaeological sites. The law of superposition holds true, and this can help date finds or features from each context, as they can be placed in sequence and the dates interpolated. Phases of activity can also often be seen through stratigraphy, especially when a trench or feature is viewed in section (profile). As pits and other features can be dug down into earlier levels, not all material at the same absolute depth is necessarily of the same age, but close attention has to be paid to the archeological layers. The Harris-matrix is a tool to depict complex stratigraphic relations, as they are found, for example, in the contexts of urban archaeology.  [edit] See also


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

The government will not be happy until they turn the US into an ABSOLUTE socialist country. they want to control everything. But you see, they can't be everywhere. hahahahahahaha![X(][:-][8|][8D] Just keep a low profile and dig on!


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## Humabdos (Nov 21, 2007)

This really sucks!  Let's see now the stuff my dad threw out in the back yard 75 years ago now belongs to the state?  F$%# that!  Our governor lets in 100,000 illegal aliens to ruin our state now they want to stop us from digging up our history? Do you think the Mexicans give a shat about our history? They( the mayor of Portland) have already started re-naming our streets after Mexicans! 
 What the State of Oregon should be focused on is ridding our state of Illegal aliens who are destroying the quality of life here with their gangs, drugs and violence not to mention the burden they place on social services with their excessive breeding habits. [/align]


 As Dale said "most Oregon diggers are going under ground".... pun intended

 The digging will continue...   Their is no law saying you can't clean out your privy or remove trash from your land that would be very unhealthy besides ridiculous! [/align]


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

> Tell me I wouldn't!


 
 Not without suffering some consequences, Lobes... Oh, wait... This is Adams' Country... Maybe for that particular stiff, you might be OK...


 R(ool) (Rhymes with "drool")


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

Land of the free my but! I am glad you all feel the same way I do. They complain about an honest, hardworking person having a hobby so he can enjoy himself and maybe get away from all the crap in the world. Now they want to regulate digging for old trash? Thats what it all is guys, TRASH. Instead of focusing on stopping the real criminals, like robbers, ILLEGAL ALIENS, drug traficers,  etc... they spend their time harrassing the honest HARD WORKING MAN. Thats where they can make the most money in fines. They dog the middle class because they rely on the rich for their campaign contributions (corruption), and try to help the poor and ILLEGALS so they can look good while weeding out the middle class. It is the middle class american they gaff. This is the USA of today! LAND OF THE FREE FOR ILLEGALS AND CRIMINALS! HOME OF THE RICH! It is disgusting!


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## Humabdos (Nov 21, 2007)

Very well said Citydigger! 
 Archaeological sites: What the Oregon law says:

 A person may not knowingly and intentionally excavate, injure, destroy or alter an archaeological site or object on public or private lands without first obtaining an archaeological permit, according to a series of state laws. The one pertaining to private lands is Oregon Administrative Rule 736-051-0090. On private or public non-federal lands, an official archaeological site is defined when it has 10 or more artifacts that are 75 years or older located in a concentrated geographic area, said Susan Lynn White, Oregon assistant state archaeologist. Violation of these laws is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by up to six months in jail, White said.
 â€œRemoval of human remains is a Class C Felony,â€ she adds. â€œThe state police can be contacted and the site shut down.â€
 Oregon law also prohibits a person from selling, purchasing, trading, bartering or exchanging an artifact that has been removed from an archaeological site on public, non-federal land or obtained from private land without the written permission of the landowner, White said.

 For more information, contact White at 503-986-0675 or e-mail Susan.White@state.or.us.
 Reach reporter Sanne Specht at 541-776-4497 or e-mail sspecht@mailtribune.com.Please call and E-mail Susan and let her know what you think about this.


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

they say it is illegal. they complain about the items we excavate from OLD TRASH DUMPS and say when the items are taken from the ground they loose their context (meaning). Obviously they had no meaning or they would not have been thrown into a DUMP! What context? It was all trash that people threw away? This is just the government flexing its SOCIALIST muscle. Nothing more. Makes me SICK![:'(]


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: tigue710
> 
> Getting a lot grief for going on that show I see...  I dont know one way or an other if it was more good or more bad for the hobby but you wouldn't of caught me dead on that show!


 
 Me niether, your just asking for the WRONG kind of attention when you do stuff like that. All the best diggers I know keep a low profile [:-]


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## GuntherHess (Nov 21, 2007)

Keep in mind we are talking about Oregon here, which has about as much in common with other USA states as Sweden or Lichtenstein[][]
 I expect they enacted the laws to protect American Aboriginal sites, which needs to be done , but they did it in a typically wishy-washy Oregonese government way. Hey , they may not of even realized there were European Americans in Oregon earlier than 75 years ago [][][]
 You cant take that law toooooo seriously, apparently they dont.

 Anyone that goes on national tv and divulges ANYTHING they do privately is just asking for trouble, isnt that fairly obvious?


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

> This is just the government flexing its SOCIALIST muscle. Nothing more.


 
 Is this a joke? Must be...


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

> Obviously they had no meaning or they would not have been thrown into a DUMP! What context? It was all trash that people threw away?


 
 Most of the material culture that archeology deals with is "trash that people threw away"... Shell middens, tells, refuse pits, hearths... It's all the nitty gritty of archeolgy, for God's sake!


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> 
> Keep in mind we are talking about Oregon here, which has about as much in common with other USA states as Sweden or Lichtenstein[][]
> I expect they enacted the laws to protect American Aboriginal sites, which needs to be done , but they did it in a typically wishy-washy Oregonese government way. Hey , they may not of even realized there were European Americans in Oregon earlier than 75 years ago [][][]
> ...


 
 I will have to agree with you GuntherHess, especially about the going on TV part. We cannot go on TV and brag about what we do. It just gives these government SOCIALIST nuts the ammunition they need to make a stink. We need to understand, most of these government funded archaes have nothing better to do. Most of them just sit around thinking of ways to sound more intellegent. It takes them 10 years to do what us treasure hunters to in one day. I think the point is:
 IF YOU BLATANTLY CALL ATTENTION TO YOURSELF, THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
 It is one thing to get caught by the cops while out digging for bottles/artifacts. Most of them, at the worst, will kick you out, thats it. But when you go on PUBLIC TV and announce what you are doing, your fate is inevitable.


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: bearswede
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 You are correct. but when the trash is taken to a massive dumpsite and tossed in, there cannot be any context associated with it since it was taken from it's place of origin and brought to a separate site in which it was disposed of. The best archaeologists try and focus on a site with historical relevance where the items found can be linked to that specific site. An example of what I am saying would be an old cellar hole. The cellar hole can be linked to who lived in that place. If the person who lived in that house took their trash to a town dump outside their residence, there is no context. Is there?


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## tigue710 (Nov 21, 2007)

I think there is still context in the dump site, just not relating to who used it.  Sometimes the patterns of society in general as read through the trash they threw away gives a better picture of the way people lived at the time then the objects used by an individual, which only relate to that persons habits and health.  

 The arcy's want every little bit of information they can, in context to what ever!  Mostly they just like digging stuff up and get jealous that we go do it when it cost them 150,000 to get a degree to do it and they dont get to keep anything!

 Bwaaaahahah... sniffle sniffle, get a shovel and dig in your own yard mr archaeologist!


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## capsoda (Nov 21, 2007)

I believe that a large portion, at least of the many that I have met, of the arcky types have no problem with the average poop hole dump type bottle digger. Most of us will never even see them BUT there will always be one or two overzellous obnoxious pains in the butt. These are the ones we will have all the fun with. The ones who call us thieves and destroyers of history. They are generally insignificant little ladder climing worms just like the ones that we all have met in every organization we will ever be in or come in contact with. They want their 15 minutes of fame and don't care who they step on to get it. you just have to beware of them. I have dug bottles with some friends who were archy types and I know the differance in what is significant and what is just another dump but I try not to call to much attention to my self even though the laws down here alow diggers freedom to dig for the most part.

 I have several friends who are archy types who dig and collect bottles including Ron (Bearswede) but I don't go on TV telling people I dig with them and I can make a pile of cash by digging in what ever state I may be in. That is the kind of bad idea that will make us look like tomb robbers. We have all tryed to convey to others our passion for digging and collecting bottles but you have to admit that most just don't get it.[8|]


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## citydigger (Nov 21, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: tigue710
> 
> I think there is still context in the dump site, just not relating to who used it.  Sometimes the patterns of society in general as read through the trash they threw away gives a better picture of the way people lived at the time then the objects used by an individual, which only relate to that persons habits and health.
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah, I can agree with that Tigue. You make a good point, I guess there is SOME context, but on a MUCH broader scale. I agree with what you say about archae's 100%. This has been a very good thread, I hope we can keep it on a informative note and not let it get out of hand like things sometimes do around here. So far it has been very educational.


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## tigue710 (Nov 21, 2007)

Very true Cap, I should verify in my last post that by no means do I shun all arcy's.  It is only a few that hold resentment and become a pain in the butt, (for what ever reason).  

 I have a friend who is an Archologist who I took digging one time, and he loved it!  The funny part was at the end he was giving me all the bottles he dug.  I said you dont want to keep any?  To which he replied, shoot I forgot I could keep anything!  Normally we give everything to a cataloger and they put em up!  He picked a few to take home and wants to line up a few more digs!


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## bearswede (Nov 21, 2007)

*RE: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!!!!!!*



> Happy Thanksgiving Swedeman!


 
 Hey Herr Katsmeow...

 HAPPY THANKSGIVING yourself! And to all our Forum brothers & sisters, their families & friends: Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Can you dig it?

 Ron


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## California Dream N (Nov 21, 2007)

I Love Lobey..He says it like it is..Sums it up and then goes about his business!! So True Lobey.......


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## subsoil (Nov 21, 2007)

This is great you guys, I am really enjoying the posts, I knew this link would draw tons of feedback, all I gotta say is look at the energy here, anything can be accomplished, it's up to us...


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## ktbi (Nov 22, 2007)

Has anyone actually ever called an archy to watch them dig?  Did they ever do it again??

 Ron


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 22, 2007)

i bet if someone dug a GX-23 in puce, donated the auction money to charity, or the bottle to a museum only with publicity...that would shut up a few people. But some of you will argue that most wouldnt do that. 



 and i thought subsoil and citydigger was the same guy with his own forum [], but im just showin some love.


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## digger mcdirt (Nov 22, 2007)

I have learned two rules in this hobby after 30 years of digging and collecting. "Loose lips sink ships and out of sight out of mind". I have never allowed newspapers etc to do stories of my collection of bottles and Civil War. I have turned down many offers for interviews etc. Why? It advertises your collection whats in your house to everyone good and yes bad and it opens eyes and makes awareness to who you are and what your doing. I had the best dump site in the world closed because a new digger had to pose with his finds for the paper and even told (stretched) how much stuff was worth. One week later we had 50 new diggers one week later the owner posted the land and fenced it. Today it is still off limits the Police watch it like Hawks.All thanks to a nice little newspaper story on what he did and what he had found. Loose lips sink ships !


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## citydigger (Nov 22, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: PhilaBottles
> 
> and i thought subsoil and citydigger was the same guy with his own forum [], but im just showin some love.


 
 why does everyone think I am someone else? I don't get it? Well I am sure you have your reasons. [] Hey Phila, you guys have been digging some cool stuff. Nice job.


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## privvydigger (Nov 22, 2007)

On a dig the other day a neighbor came over with a video camera and wanted to film us..  He said "don't you want to be on U-TUBE on the world wide web"  I said nooooooooo
 thx anyway
 HAPPY THANKSDIGGING 
 privvydigger


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## appliedlips (Nov 22, 2007)

I copied this from a post I made on another forum.I totally agree with McDirt and Gunther.This law was not set out to stop privy digging but they will try to apply it to anything to serve their needs.McDirt mentioned Newspapers,which are never good,either.Historical sites need to be saved and not every pit or dump is one but lets use some common sense.I always post bluntly on these topics and for this reason,new diggers and collectors always love seeing the press and need to see the flip side.Doug




     The law is ignorant,but we all know archeologists feel this way
 and the feeling will continue to spread.What I think is ironic
 is,many folks in here thought a show called CASH AND TREASURE
 featuring privy digging was good for the hobby.That was the dumbest
 thing I'd ever heard of,not this law.This story infuriates us but
 the way that show infuriated them.The law was there before the show
 and was put on the books to primarily protect Native American sites
 I imagine.Alot of guys continue to think being in your local paper
 and public information is a good idea but it will only lead to
 negative opinion of privy digging to uptight scholars.I learned
 about digging privies on the internet and the information put online
 continues to grow the number of diggers.This will surely lead to
 more bad press for the hobby.I love to brag and show off my dug
 stuff to other diggers but to do it in public is stupid.Regardless I
 will write Susan White and voice my opinion.Doug


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## appliedlips (Nov 22, 2007)

You sir are correct.This issue probably hits close to home for him since his dump was closed and in the paper.He openly hates this forum and puts it all over the net but can't stay away.If you look at Citydiggers past posts you won't see a whole lot of positive posts.Only stirring trouble.Happy Thanksgiving guys!




> and i thought subsoil and citydigger was the same guy with his own forum , but im just showin some love.





> ORIGINAL: PhilaBottles
> 
> i bet if someone dug a GX-23 in puce, donated the auction money to charity, or the bottle to a museum only with publicity...that would shut up a few people. But some of you will argue that most wouldnt do that.
> 
> ...


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## Humabdos (Nov 22, 2007)

Let not start bashing Oregonians "friend" [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


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## tigue710 (Nov 22, 2007)

We had a little fun there, and it's all gone now....


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## whiskeyman (Nov 22, 2007)

Interesting thread and many good points made:

I've been interviewed a couple of times by the local paper. It hasn't resulted in any kind of negative responses and I got very few leads from it.[/align]I made sure to state I enjoyed digging for bottles, but I never said where. I also stated I traveled to shows, yard sales, and flea markets in pursuit of bottles.[/align]Last week I was invited to give a talk about bottles at the local historical association meeting.  Unlike at bottle club meetings where I had spoken, it caused me to go round & round with how to do such a talk as 99 % of the members knew nothing at all about bottle collecting, etc. [/align]I began with old pontilled bottles and ended with ACLs and had examples of bottles to show. I lost my way a couple of times - my mind just went blank. LOL[/align]The large crowd  of 60 or so Peeps, didn't help.[/align]At the end several approached me and said they enjoyed the talk, learned something and,  would look at bottles in an entirely different way now. So, I guess I was "successful"  in gaining both interest and attention to the Hobby.[/align]Another thing that came out of the talk was during the question & answer session. My wife pointed out to the President and membership that lots of bottles were still in the ground and what was the historical association going to do about it?[/align]The result: I was to draft a sample letter to send out to contractors, builders, the Cities of Bristol, and construction/demolition companies to contact names on the letter in the event any old bottles were unearthed/ found during the course of work, and the contacts would remove and preserve the bottles in question. Even if they all went to the historical association, that seemed a much better option than having them crushed and/or reburied .[/align]All in all, positive press for the Hobby can't hurt as long as properly "handled" and we do need new "blood" to continue to enter the Hobby. The more Peeps out there looking and digging - the more bottles will come to light.[/align]WE don't really own any of this "stuff". We simply enjoy it, gather it up ,and later dispose of it for like minded individuals to enjoy. Along the way we spend money, make money, trade back & forth and share our knowledge and expertise. [/align]I would imagine that in the long run, we're lucky to "break even" monetarily, considering all the *time & labor* we exhaust in the pursuit of our Hobby.[/align]


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## citydigger (Nov 22, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: appliedlips
> 
> You sir are correct.This issue probably hits close to home for him since his dump was closed and in the paper.He openly hates this forum and puts it all over the net but can't stay away.If you look at Citydiggers past posts you won't see a whole lot of positive posts.Only stirring trouble.Happy Thanksgiving guys!


 
 Come on appliedlips, no one wants any trouble. I have dug with Matt and know he is not well liked in this forum. I also know he dislikes a few of the members in here for his own reasons but I don't think he wants any trouble these days, he has calmed down a lot. I am not trying to start any trouble in here, are you? Because by posting the remark above it sure sounds to me like you are the one with a grudge. Just give me a break and let stick to the topic. I am not going to be provoked into an argument with you guys just because you do not like someone I know.

 Now about that dump you were mentioning in you previous post. I think every local digger has dug in that place since the 60's. It sucks that they closed it down but to be honest, most of the stuff that came out of there was sick junk TOC stuff. A lot was melted. So the state closing it down really just gave us the opportunity to find better areas to dig. Privies are where the really old stuff is these days anyhow. Have a nice holiday and don't be haters. No one want any trouble on this end.


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## Oldtimer (Nov 22, 2007)

We have 10,000 year old human settlements found and kept under gaurd here...bottles dug from surface dumps is such small potatoes no one cares except the landowner and the digger.


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## JGUIS (Nov 22, 2007)

Boy, it's nice to know that a guy can make a post on here now, and the thought police will take it down without a word because they don't agree with what it says.  [:-]  Like I said before, land of the free my a$$.


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## bearswede (Nov 23, 2007)

> the thought police will take it down without a word


 
 To what do you refer????


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## splante (Jul 24, 2011)

opps didnt mean to restart this one just wanted to copy the advice


> ORIGINAL:  digger mcdirt
> 
> I have learned two rules in this hobby after 30 years of digging and collecting. "Loose lips sink ships and out of sight out of mind". I have never allowed newspapers etc to do stories of my collection of bottles and Civil War. I have turned down many offers for interviews etc. Why? It advertises your collection whats in your house to everyone good and yes bad and it opens eyes and makes awareness to who you are and what your doing. I had the best dump site in the world closed because a new digger had to pose with his finds for the paper and even told (stretched) how much stuff was worth. One week later we had 50 new diggers one week later the owner posted the land and fenced it. Today it is still off limits the Police watch it like Hawks.All thanks to a nice little newspaper story on what he did and what he had found. Loose lips sink ships !


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## saratogadriver (Jul 24, 2011)

I can see why you wanted to quote that advice.   I don't dig, but I don't tell anyone much of anything about my hobby or my collection, either.   I've known one or two crooked antique dealers over the years who have gotten mixed up in burglary rings.  While my collection is hardly at the national level, I DO have a few pieces that would be worth stealing to an unscrupulous person...

 Jim G




> ORIGINAL:  splante
> 
> opps didnt mean to restart this one just wanted to copy the advice
> 
> ...


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## bostaurus (Jul 24, 2011)

I seem to remember a story from a few years ago, that I think, dealt with a stoneware collection.  The man and his wife left home for a collectors convention, when they returned home much of his collections was gone.  They seem to think it was another collector as only the best pieces were taken.  So very sad.
 One of the joys of collecting is sharing it with others.  You hate to wonder if the person you are showing around your collection is making note of values, entry points, etc.  It is a rather small collectors world too...when you steal something rare you have to lock it away and show no one.  If you try to sell it you get caught or have to sell it at a very reduces price to someone that does not know any better.


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## VTdigger (Jul 24, 2011)

Interesting, where can one find the laws for each state?


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## RICKJJ59W (Jul 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cowseatmaize
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 People need to be sensitive," he said. "Once you move a bottle, once you  move an arrowhead, the historical significance is reduced."

 I should have left that puce eagle there in the pit,I should have never touched it,man do I feel bad now,the history is gone. Hahaha are these people insane or what.[8D]


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