# Help identifying beer/wine (?) squat bottle.



## tropichahni (Feb 22, 2017)

Here is another bottle I have which brings up a lot of questions. I see ring marks consistently through the bottle, so does that identify  it as a turn molded bottle? I see no visible seams on neither the bottle nor be applied finish. Am I correct in identifying this as an applied finish? I see two places where the glass has seeped down past the application point. This bottle confuses me because of the applied finish and the shine. I'm looking for more information to help me continue to identify bottles. Any help in identifying and correcting me in this process is appreciated. I'm looking for the age usage and value of a bottle like this. Thank you


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## diggansearch (Feb 22, 2017)

Nice bottle tropichahni ! 
This brings up some questions to me too. However it´s definitly a turnned tool finish one.
It dates 1900´s. See in this page "What is it before 1900" and  "What is it after 1900" forums.


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## tropichahni (Feb 22, 2017)

diggansearch said:


> Nice bottle tropichahni !
> This brings up some questions to me too. However it´s definitly a turnned tool finish one.
> It dates 1900´s. See in this page "What is it before 1900" and  "What is it after 1900" forums.




 What do you mean by "tool finish" ? I thought tooled was when the finish was tooled on and you can see the tool finish between the top and the next where it blends into the other. I thought this spilling of the glass around the connection was "applied" finish. Is there more clarification on this? Where can I find that?


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## whittled (Feb 23, 2017)

I think e's referring to Turn Mold.


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## sandchip (Feb 23, 2017)

The bottle was turned in the mold after blowing but before removal, then separated from the blowpipe after removal from the mold, and the top applied and tooled to shape. They really had to hustle in applying a band of hot glass to the top of the neck, resulting in the bit of excess which was mashed against the neck by the underside of the lipping tool.  The bottle was being held horizontally during this process, so it's not where glass ran down the neck as you so often hear.  The glass is quite viscous and wouldn't run in that state at that point during the manufacturing process.  Hope this helps.

Nice bottle, by the way!


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## botlguy (Feb 23, 2017)

Be careful what you believe. I see some misinformation in the responses. Sandchip says it best. It appears to be an 1870 - 80 English / European ale bottle. Applied finish means a separate piece of glass applied, tooled means finishing with the original gather.

Note: I can be mistaken, search further.
Jim


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 23, 2017)

I would describe this bottle as a TOC19 medicinal (we call them 'dietary supplements' these days) for beef broth or 'liquid bread' or similar.  It's probably American-made.

My understanding is, with the improvement of molds late in the 19th Century, application of a separate bit of glass for the lip was no longer necessary.  Cecil Munsey refers to these as 'full height molds.'  The date of that transition was about 1880.

I collect demijohns, so testing for an applied lip is easy: I can stick a finger into the mouth of one of these bottles and feel for a ridge where the join was made.  Feel for it, that is, if it is not visible when held to the light. 

Lipping tools were adopted in the USA about 1850, according to Munsey.  No matter which way the lip glass was in place, some excess glass may be squeezed beyond the lipping tool.  Not a drip, as sandchip correctly points out.

Turn-mold or paste-mold bottles had a brief popularity at the TOC19.  But, turn-mold bottles couldn't be embossed, so they didn't compete successfully with embossed bottles, especially after slug plates became available in the latter 1800s. 

Here's an exaggerated example of a lipping tool used on an applied lip.  It's a very neat lip, but a very crude join in the neck of the bottle.

[SUP]​[/SUP] 
​


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## diggansearch (Feb 23, 2017)

Hello all !
I have got many bottles with finish like this but the interior of the necks are different .
Many  have no marks inside the neck.  Many other have a circular groove  inside like two pieces joined toghether and some have an irregular  ridge.
Because of it I doubt your bottle has realy an applied lip.
In my opinion the bottle turned in the mold still after the blow pipe was separated .
Then , still turning,   a lipping tool shape using same glass from the previous crude top.
Note: Forgive my bad English.


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## tropichahni (Feb 23, 2017)

Harry Pristis said:


> I
> I collect demijohns, so testing for an applied lip is easy: I can stick a finger into the mouth of one of these bottles and feel for a ridge where the join was made.  Feel for it, that is, if it is not visible when held to the light.
> 
> Lipping tools were adopted in the USA about 1850, according to Munsey.  No matter which way the lip glass was in place, some excess glass may be squeezed beyond the lipping tool.  Not a drip, as sandchip correctly points out.
> ...



I looked with a flashlight as well as felt inside. Let me try to  describe it the best I can. There is an uneven ridge but not large. when  I look at it ... it looks as if the glass has been pulled up into the  mouth and formed this ridge. like it was adhered by pulling and  smoothing the bottle neck glass up into the mouth. Does this sound like  what you mention?


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 24, 2017)

Could be we see the weld between the body and an applied lip.  The weld looks pressed in place by the rod portion of the lipping tool which is inserted into the opening.


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## sandchip (Feb 24, 2017)

Your bottle does indeed have an applied lip.  I have plenty of turn-molded bottles with applied lips.  What we call tooled top bottles were formed in full height blowback molds where the bottle and lip are all formed in the mold which enlarges above the top, resulting in the glass becoming very thin at that area, so the blowpipe and the thin glass is knocked off instead of being wetted off.  Then the lipping tool is inserted and the bottle finished, saving time over the course of a workday and producing more bottles.  I did see an early video (around 1900) of workers blowing little drugstore bottles like this.  They were flat out gettin' it!  Anyway, the fact that the glass becomes so thin in the bulbous blowback portion of the mold above the lip would preclude any turning of the bottle in the mold.  So, just because turn-molded bottles were popular in the latter part of the 1800s when tooled tops became so prevalent, doesn't mean that all earlier manufacturing techniques were abandoned.  In the case of turn molding, the gaffers couldn't.  I have more applied top turn-molded bottles than tooled top examples.  It's conceivable that, in the case of tooled top, turn-molded examples, that a full height mold was used, the bottle wetted from the blowpipe just at the top of the lip, and the top tooled.  I have a whiskey like this.  I'm not sure if this is the case or not.  Still stewing on that one.

As far as inserting the finger into the mouth of the bottle to check for an applied top, sometimes that works, sometimes it does not.  It all depends on the size of rod portion of the lipping tool, temperature of the glass, etc.

Hope this helps, if it all makes any sense.

Another thing:  we can't always pigeonhole things into defined time periods as far as technology goes.  How long have smart phones been on the market?  And many folks still use flip phones, and a few, rotary desk phones?  There will always be periods of transition of varying lengths in regards to the acceptance and use of all types of technologies.


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## diggansearch (Feb 24, 2017)

I drew these trhee diferent sections I identified. Hope they explain better than words. The second drow is definitly your bottle. Maybe the uneven ridge mentioned in other posts is a diference of diameter inside, like te third section.
Somone can explain how was made ich one of they? If there is another kind of finish, I want to know.


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## sandchip (Feb 24, 2017)

Hope you don't mind me amending your drawing, but this might better explain what's going on in the case of Tropichahni's bottle.


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## diggansearch (Feb 24, 2017)

That drawing just illustrate your good explanation, sanchip


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## tropichahni (Feb 24, 2017)

OK it's pretty clear now. I have definitely added to my knowledge with this one. So, with this information. What sort of value does a bottle like this have?


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 24, 2017)

"It's conceivable that, in the case of tooled top, turn-molded examples, that a full height mold was used, the bottle wetted from the blowpipe just at the top of the lip, and the top tooled.  I have a whiskey like this.  I'm not sure if this is the case or not.  Still stewing on that one."

Stew no longer, sandchip.  You've described how tooled top bottles are finished, whether or not they are turned in the mold.

On the other hand, I think your description the use of burst lip or blow-back molds is exaggerated.  Why would a lipping tool be required if the lip is already created in the mold?  Grinding the ragged lip or fire-polishing would be less labor intensive.  For reference, blow-back molds were used for early canning jars and for British inks and perfumes.

Here's what Munsey says about blow-back molds:


​


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## sandchip (Feb 24, 2017)

I always thought that the full height blow-back molds were used only on fruit jars and screw tops like snuffs, *until *I saw that video.  It was a real eye opener.  I wish I could remember where I saw it.  Tooling would take no longer on a bottle blown in a full height blow-back mold than it would an applied top, and far less time than grinding.  It would shock you just how fast the seasoned glassworkers accompished this, probably under 15 seconds per bottle, from gather to blow to tooled and done.

I'll see if I can take a few pictures to illustrate those examples where the entire top was formed in the mold, then the top tooled as well.  It is what it is.


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 24, 2017)

sandchip said:


> [snip]
> I'll see if I can take a few pictures to illustrate those examples where the entire top was formed in the mold, then the top tooled as well.  It is what it is.



I agree that you should provide some evidence for your claim that blow-back molds were used on bottles like the original in this thread.  And, that a lipping tool was used on those bottles. 

We already agree that full height molds were used, then the lip was tooled.  These are common at the TOC19. 

The disagreement is over the use of the BLOW-BACK full height mold.  So, if you are going to present images here, they should demonstrate that the bottle was blown in a blow-back mold.  Good luck with that.


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## sandchip (Feb 24, 2017)

Harry Pristis said:


> We already agree that full height molds were used, then the lip was tooled.



How else would a full height mold be configured without the enlarged (blow-back) area above the very top of the bottle?  I wasn't there, nor am I being contentious, just want to hear what you're thinking on the matter.  I guess that the gaffer could withdraw the blowpipe just enough to clear the top opening of the mold and give it another puff, but that would take more time, when making the mold with the blow-back cavity in the first place would make more sense.  The main reason for the blow-back is allow the glass to be blown thin enough in that spot to break from the blowpipe easily, eliminating the need to wet.  The picture of the mold that you shared appears to be that of an ale.  I've seen many ales of that shape, but never one with a ground top.  No bigger than the cavity appears in the picture, maybe a tooled top, turn mold is possible in a blow-back mold, since the glass in that spot would retain enough thickness to turn the bottle without twisting in that spot.

When I post some pictures, how will you be able to determine if the bottle's mold had or didn't have a blow-back cavity?  I don't see how that would be possible without having the original, corresponding mold for that particular bottle, but maybe I'm missing something here.  I've got some ideas, but I'm gonna have to look at some (many, that is) bottles first.

I only thought that I had looked closely at old bottles.  I would think that of all the TOC19 bottles blown in a full height mold, if they were wetted off and tooled, that there would have to be an example out there that would exhibit crazing lines.


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 24, 2017)

sandchip said:


> *How else would a full height mold be configured without the enlarged (blow-back) area above the very top of the bottle?*  I wasn't there, nor am I being contentious, just want to hear what you're thinking on the matter.  I guess that the gaffer could withdraw the blowpipe just enough to clear the top opening of the mold and give it another puff, but that would take more time, when making the mold with the blow-back cavity in the first place would make more sense.  The main reason for the blow-back is allow the glass to be blown thin enough in that spot to break from the blowpipe easily, eliminating the need to wet.  *The picture of the mold that you shared appears to be that of an ale.*  I've seen many ales of that shape, but never one with a ground top.  No bigger than the cavity appears in the picture, maybe a tooled top, turn mold is possible in a blow-back mold, since the glass in that spot would retain enough thickness to turn the bottle without twisting in that spot.
> 
> *When I post some pictures, how will you be able to determine if the bottle's mold had or didn't have a blow-back cavity?  I don't see how that would be possible *without having the original, corresponding mold for that particular bottle, but maybe I'm missing something here.  I've got some ideas, but I'm gonna have to look at some (many, that is) bottles first.
> 
> I only thought that I had looked closely at old bottles.  I would think that of all the TOC19 bottles blown in a full height mold, if they were wetted off and tooled, that there would have to be an example out there that would exhibit crazing lines.



The lip of a full height mold is at the opening of the mold.  The parison is sheared off (less likely 'wetted' off because the glass is still plastic) at the top of the mold. The lipping tool is then inserted into the exposed mouth of the bottle both to create a uniform opening and to press the glass firmly into the lip part of the mold.

If the mold has been prepared with paste and a few drops of water for lubrication.  Perhaps the same or similar lipping tool could be used to turn the bottle which is still in the mold. The same tool might also be used to remove the bottle from the mold.

All the illustrations of mold marks in Munsey's book employ the same generic bottle drawing.  Don't take the form literally.

Ah, yes! It is not possible to look at the bottle in question or any similar bottle and say that it was blown in a blow-back mold.  Yet, you were willing to assert that bottles like this were blown in such a mold. 

I appreciate your willingness to examine this subject with equanimity. 

*[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]*


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## sandchip (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks for your response, Harry.  This is what it's all about in trying to figure out how bottles were made in a time before Youtube and from which there is no one left alive to tell us.  This may or may not be straying from the original subject yet seeming relevant in the big picture, but "shearing" of the bottle from the blowpipe has never been a popular theory with me, if taken literally in its execution with what, from the pictures I've seen, looks like a large pair of tin snips.  Was the neck:  1.  Sheared like a piece of clear vinyl tubing at the hardware store?  or 2.  Did the worker poke a hole in the side of the hot, plastic glass tube (bottle neck), insert the tip of one blade and began cutting around its circumference? or 3.  Did they make a pinch cut in one side of the neck to create the hole before cutting?  None of the aforementioned "guesses" seem practical at all to me, but instead quite time consuming, not to mention frustrating.  In working with glass in its hot, plastic (and very sticky) state, it would seem that: 1. would result in a neck opening pinched shut.  2.  probably the same result as 1. as the neck is pushed in from the side, contacting the other side before being perforated by the shears' blade tip.  or 3.  might actually work, but still result in having to open that portion of the neck stuck together by the pinch cut.  With the bottle held horizontally (presumably with a snap), the edge of a thin, wet, wooden paddle (like a paint stir stick) being held against the neck in the desired point of separation, bottle rotated and blowpipe rapped, all taking place in mere seconds, wetting seems so much more productive in terms of time with zero deformation of the neck opening.  All this is my opinion, and only an opinion.

Harry, it may just be you and me, partner because I feel like everybody else has left the room, but I hope others will chime in with their opinions.  I'm admittedly a bottle junkie.  Not a day has passed since I was 14 when I haven't thought about old bottles at least once, well, dozens of times.  Maybe this old carpenter/sign maker should've taken up glassblowing instead, huh?

There's glass blowing studio about 20 minutes from here.  Maybe the craftsmen there can offer some insight on the matter, although most of theirs is offhand work with very little use of molds.


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## sunrunner (Feb 25, 2017)

common t . o . c bottle malt extract . yours ? 1890s.


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## tropichahni (Feb 25, 2017)

I don't know if this helps any... along the edge, under the lip or applied top. I have no idea the right technical term. I have observed that most of the glass from the molded finish has adhered to the bottle neck but there is one place where there is a clear space where some dirt has even gotten up in it making it so it looks like the finish was indeed applied after and pressed against the hot glass and this small spot didn't adhere as well as the rest. Maybe It is insignificant but that is the only other thing I have noticed about it. And to be honest... I am really confused now about what is being questioned. I thought it was clearly an applied finish but is it now being questioned?


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## tropichahni (Feb 25, 2017)

Ok One other thing... I don't recall who said it but the idea that they cut off the glass top ... in this case seems plausable, first because you can clearly see a jagged line where the neck ends and is pressed against the glass if it had been a clean cut, I think it would have been a much smoother line... but I may be wrong. Also because there is a big scar leading to the top which could have been a slip of the scissors but... that then leads me to the question... would it have been cut while it was still turning in the mold?


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 25, 2017)

Tropichahni . . . Your bottle is as Sunrunner just summarized, a malt extract (a "dietary supplement" today) with an applied lip.  Your bottle was not blown in a full height mold.  Sandchip and I are in the weeds discussing which sort of full height mold was most likely used to make other bottles.

Sandchip . . . I shouldn't have tried to distinguish between "sheared" and "wetted off."  It was a needless flourish.  Can we agree that a full height mold bottle was separated from the blow-pipe while still in  the mold, then the opening was tooled for uniformity while still in the mold.  At this point, the bottle would have a full length side seam.  Only further tooling or fire polishing would 'wipe' the seam from the lip.  

A full height turn mold bottle was turned in the mold by the blow-pipe attachment or by the lipping tool.  Seams would have been wiped, perhaps completely at the lip by fire polishing.

We are close to, if not past, the point of diminishing returns on this subject.


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## sandchip (Feb 25, 2017)

Hopefully getting close, brother.  LOL

BUT, I still got pictures to post when I get time.  Meanwhile, catch yer breath!

Oh, the infinite tangential discussions of bottledom.  Sorry 'bout that, Tropichahni.


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