# refired pontil?????



## welddigger (Jan 25, 2007)

This is a half pint strapside. The crudeness of it makes to believe it is a earlier example. On the base is what looks to me like refired pontil mark. I have several odd colored strapsides in all sizes but I never seen one with a pontil. Tell me what you think, refired pontil or just some crazy mold mishap??? THANX!


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## welddigger (Jan 25, 2007)

sorry got logged off somehow..... heres the base,


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## welddigger (Jan 25, 2007)

Man I got some dirty hands!!! more.....


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## welddigger (Jan 25, 2007)

Here's  a pic of the top...


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## welddigger (Jan 25, 2007)

another............


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## earlyglass (Jan 25, 2007)

Hi Welddigger,

 Refired pontil.... I don't believe such a thing exists. A pontil was used to secure a bottle while the top was applied or refired. To refire a pontil wouldn't make any sense, and it would be inpossible to do. How would the bottle be secured to put it back into the oven? If a pontil mark disabled the bottle from standing, then the base would be ground down. So, this term "refired pontil" is used quite a bit, but I don't think such a thing could exist. 

 Mike


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## capsoda (Jan 25, 2007)

Hey Mike, Most fancy apothacary and decanters that were pontiled were fire polished so they would look good. They were fore long term use. Found this on the BLM site.

Some early 19th century bottles - particularly decorative bottles intended to be kept indefinitely - were often fire polished as the final step in the production process.  Fire polishing was reported to have been developed by the English in 1834, though some American flasks from an earlier period appear to have been fire polished.  Fire polishing was done to remove tool and mold marks and to achieve an esthetic shiny surface to the glass much like later turn-mold bottles achieved through a different process (Ketcham 1975; Toulouse 1969).  *Fire polishing would sometimes remove most or all evidence of the pontil scar making a very early bottle appear to be a later smooth base bottle.*


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## earlyglass (Jan 25, 2007)

Warren,  thanks for the information. I would really love to see how this was accomplished. Once the piece was cooled or had been through the annealing process, any attempt to reheat would have probably caused the piece to burst. If it was done while the piece was hot and still being molded, then how was the piece held and reheated if the pontil rod was removed and the top was already applied? Mike


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## welddigger (Jan 26, 2007)

After seeing lotsa of bottles with what looked like a pontil scar that had been smoothed out from heat. I asked at shows about it and was told that they are refired pontils. I also wondered how this was done, no one has been able to give me a real good answer to that. I just use the term because it's the standard for describing that type of marking on the base. If you find any info let me know because I'm interested to here how it was done. Oh yeh! What about the base on my strapside what do you think?????????


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## earlyglass (Jan 26, 2007)

Your strap sided is probably circa 1880s... way past the end of the pontil era by 20 years atleast. It is hard to say what it is... mold flaw, embossing that was filled, an air release hole in the mold... I am not sure what it is, other than added character!  Mike


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## zanes_antiques (Jan 26, 2007)

Here are my cracker jars? the one that puts me in mind of "Wavecrest" has a ground and polished pontil. Notice how it is dull and the glass around it is glossy, except where there is wear.


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## capsoda (Jan 26, 2007)

I will do my best to explain.  I have seen glass blown and manipulated and seen the use of some of the tools I have never used any of them.


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## zanes_antiques (Jan 26, 2007)

Here is the front of that jar and two others That I like very much.


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## zanes_antiques (Jan 26, 2007)

Here is the pontil to the light.


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## capsoda (Jan 26, 2007)

I will try to esplain. Bear with me. 

 My great uncle worked in a glass house when he wa a boy and he had a bucket and wooden shaping sticks and some long metal rods. He explained there use to me ehen I was young but I don't claim to remember what all of them were for. 

 I have some pics of the modern version of the ones used to manipulate hot bottles. Each is used for several functions but I will only discuss the ones that are pertianant to refiring. 

 The first are *bit irons. *They come in several diameters and are used for holding a hot bottle by inserting into the bottle. The large end will keep the bottle from slipping off.


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## capsoda (Jan 26, 2007)

Next is a punty but no pic. A punty is an iron rod with a wooden handle {I don't know what newer one use for a handle} that has an adjustable collar that slides up and down the rod so you can make the useable end go as deep into the bottle as possible. I have included a pic of the adjustable collar. I hope that Steinert doesn't mind me using their pics. They are getting free advertising. These are some of the tool that can be used for holding a bottle or jar while refiring. It is done while the glass is still hot and before tempering/annealing.


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## capsoda (Jan 26, 2007)

Did that make any since???[8|]


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## zanes_antiques (Jan 26, 2007)

Make any what?


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## kungfufighter (Jan 26, 2007)

I am behind earlyglass 100% in believing that refired pontils are a type of urban myth.  The reason a bottle had a pontil in the first place is because the technology (a snap case) had not yet been invented for the bottle to be held without use of a rod during lip finishing.  Logically then, there would be no way for the bottle to be held while the pontil was "refired" unless a rod was affixed to the mouth (which they had just tooled and PERHAPS "fire polished").  The proces would then have to go on indefinitely, as there would always be one end of the bottle with a rough scar.  Simply stated, if the technology existed to "refire" a pontil there would be no need for a pontil rod in the first place. When pontil are ground and polished there are not "refired" simply roughly ground and polished on a wheel.


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## capsoda (Jan 26, 2007)

The sabot and snap case tools were used on bottles that were fresh out of the mould and extremely hot. You rarely see bottles that were marked by them. Glass blowers handled hot glass every day and I would suspect that they were very adept at doing so without damaging the product how ever they did it. Its just that I have seen too many fire polished pontils not to believe they could do it.


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## RED Matthews (Feb 25, 2009)

Well every one,  I sure have enjoyed this thread.  I have picked off each of your post and put them into my word file for re-reading.  I will be back to a couple of you - like capsoda's information.  This stuff makes the Forum the fantastic media that it is.
 RED Matthews


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## glass man (Feb 25, 2009)

YOU ARE RIGHT RED!


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## jane8851 (Feb 25, 2009)

Lobey, your sense of humor cracks me up every time!


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## tigue710 (Feb 25, 2009)

this is an on going mystery...  My guess is that bottles that seem to have a refired pontil are just push ups...  Possibly a hot tool was used to push up the base of the bottle, creating what looks like a refired pontil.  I have seen pontil bottles with a half melted pontil in the kick up, maybe the tool was used on these also?  The tool would of had to have been hot as a cold tool would cool the glass or stress it...

 If you look at any bottle claimed to be a refired pontil you will see one of two things, some rough glass, making it a type of sticky ball pontil and not refired, or a completely smooth kick up...

 Early bottles always have the sticky ball pontil... the only ones that are really confusing are the later black glass bottles, which would of been held with a snap case, so there would be no evidence of the pontil although the base was kicked up separately after being taking out of the mold.

 The other possibility is that the annealing ovens were to hot, or very hot?

 I have seen a wood carving of a very old glass house where in there is a boy carrying a bottle in the way Warren described it, with a stick or rod stuck in the mouth.  So logically it could have been dome with this method, but financially and economically it did not make sense to waste time and resource on what were for the most part garbage bottles...


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## coldwater diver (Feb 26, 2009)

I am buy no means an expert but I am fortunate to have my business located right down the hall of a glass blowing co. in an old mill in Dover N.H. The company is called Salamandra Glass and have spent many an hour watching them blow glass. I can ask them next time Im in. It is interesting the book of On The Trail of Stoddard Glass shows a photo of New Granite Glass and all I have to say is things have not changed much from now till then. The boys at Salamandra will sometimes use the torch to touch up a piece I just dont think they had that technology back then. I will ask and get back soon.   Kevin


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## coldwater diver (Feb 27, 2009)

I spoke with George Cirrocco the glassblower I mentioned. He did agree that there were no real means to refire a pontil and that if it were a nicer piece such as a vase it would have been ground when annealed.  The  process is really interesting if anyone lives near Dover, N.H. they should check out the glassblowing.


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## RED Matthews (Feb 27, 2009)

Hello again,  Your contributions are still being collected.  I just want to point out that I am putting together a blog on glass making tools.  In that blog I will be pointing out that as far back as 1751-1772 the push-up was put into the bottom of bottles with a molette.  A wooden tool that was kept wet was used to push the push-up down into the bottom of a bottle being formed with this tool.  In Willy  Van der Bosswche's book, "ANTIQUE GLASS BOTTLES,  Their History and Evolution (1500-1850) on page 56 is a copy of early bottle making woodcuts from the Encyclopedia of Diderot and d'
 Almbeert (Pg 360), you can study the processing used at that time <Fig. 1>  In this illustration a bottle maker is shown using the molette to push down into the formed bottle a push-up of glass forming;  The mouth piece end of the blowpipe is insertied in a plate or stone on the floor, with a hole in it and the man is pushing the tool down into the pliable glass being formed.  After this going to <Fig 2> another man is shown trying to re- straighten the sides of the bottle.  The molette forming buldged and rounded the heal of these early bottles - so much so that the buldge could only be corrected to a certain extent.   
 I want to point out that this book of Bossche's is the #1 book on my homepage, recommended list of books.  It deserves your consideration for purchase, if you want to learn about how some of these things were done back in time.  RED Matthews


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## cyberdigger (Feb 28, 2009)

This is a really good thread.. I be BUSY lately but I stop in and see what's up here.. Lobe, that def. cracked me up!!!


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## RICKJJ59W (Feb 28, 2009)

I think he held it a bit to long []


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## tigue710 (Feb 28, 2009)

thats it then...  the process of creating the push up smeared out evidence of the pontil.  There is no such thing as a refired pontil...


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## glass man (Feb 28, 2009)

> ORIGINAL: lobeycat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


                                                                  ALL THE GIRLS CALL HIM "HOTTIE"!


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## RED Matthews (Feb 28, 2009)

> tigue710
> Super Member
> Posts: 2312
> Joined: 7/11/2007
> ...


 
 Hi  Tigue;  I guess I missed something.  I just couldn't figure out what you mean.  I didn't indicate that conclusion.  RED Matthews


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## cyberdigger (Feb 28, 2009)

..the term "refired pontil" IS out there.. but it might or might not have been meant to be interpreted literally..

 I think it just proves that the fantastic 4 is for real...


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## baltbottles (Feb 28, 2009)

There are also smooth based bottles that are much earlier then the 1860s There are some early flint glass smooth based bottles that are 1840s and most torpedo sodas could be blown smooth base by the 1830s. The presence or absence of a pontil scar is not always indicative of age. The context a piece was found in has to be taken into account.

  Chris


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## GuntherHess (Mar 1, 2009)

> There are also smooth based bottles that are much earlier then the 1860s


 
 That's definately true. Good example is the 76 Union St Langley's Bitters I have sitting on my shelf. Smooth based and made probably around 1850.


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## tigue710 (Mar 2, 2009)

Chris this is true, but I'm talking more about the black glass porter and junk bottles most often referred to or as refired...  The torpedoes I have no idea about although the ones I've seen do not look to have been pontiled and refired, while I a few of the early flint glass bottles I've seen all looked to be ground and polished if there is no evidence of the pontil...

 post some pics if you have something, I'd like to chase this one down.  We need to lay the myths to rest all ready!


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