# what do we know about Iron Pontil marks



## AntiqueMeds (Apr 21, 2012)

I was trying to come up with a characterization of iron pontil marked bottles.
 In my case iron pontil marked medicines. I have recorded about 250 different iron pontil marked medicines.
 Since I have recorded at least 10 x as many open pontil marked medicines, iron pontils were apparently less commonly used or used for a shorter period (or both) on medicines.
 A couple things I have noted about  iron pontils...
 -they were typically used on larger medicines, 7" or larger
 -they were typically seen on bottles with applied lips (not flared or rolled)
 -they seem most prevalent from the 1850s.
 -they seem to have been used at most glass making locations in the USA

 my impression is it was a technology which offered an improved method of holding a heavier bottle while a lip was applied. It could be released with less chance of breaking the bottle. It was replaced by another improvement (the snap case) around the civil war fairly quickly.

 One question I have is when did use of an iron pontil generally begin?  What are the earliest examples of iron pontil bottles that people have (which dates can be verified)


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## epackage (Apr 21, 2012)

*1850 Matt...*


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## cowseatmaize (Apr 21, 2012)

I'd have to look deeper but my understanding is the IP was very short lived. It was overlapped in many factories by OP and Snap holders but really only used from about the late 1850's to early 1860's.
 Of course others will know from memory but I lack that facility.[][][][]


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 21, 2012)

we have an 1850 bid []  Can anyone show proof of an earlier one?  
 I will have look and see ones I have recorded that look early. I know most I have seen are mid 1850s to 1860s.


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## cowseatmaize (Apr 21, 2012)

Cecil Munsey states the bare iron pontil as 1845-70. I can't argue with the master so I retract my opinion.


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## kungfufighter (Apr 21, 2012)

> my impression is it was a technology which offered an improved method of holding a heavier bottle while a lip was applied. It could be released with less chance of breaking the bottle. It was replaced by another improvement (the snap case) around the civil war fairly quickly.


 
 I fully support this message.  There's an exception to every rule (in that I have seen a couple of iron pontiled umbrellas) but yes, by and large, this statement is in my experience spot on.


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## baltbottles (Apr 21, 2012)

Matt I would think that around 1844 iron pontils were being used on soda bottle replacing blow pipe pontils and there are morning star bitters with the 5 8 69 date that are iron pontiled so 1844-1870 would be a very good estimation of date range.

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 21, 2012)

That is pretty good evidence for at least the 1870 date.

 Are there any iron pontil marked bottles from the 1840s that can be specifically dated no later than that period?
 Like a druggist or brewer who went out of business in 1845?

 With all due respect for Mr Munsey I'd prefer to see actual evidence before I state it as fact. There is a lot of folklore in the collecting realm.


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## Road Dog (Apr 21, 2012)

On the Tweddle Soda Waters John Tweddle operated from the Courtland Street address from 1844 to 1848. From 1849 to 1854 he moved to 41 Barclay Street. My Courtland Street bottles are all Iron pontilled. I think the very earliest 1844 were the open pontil bottles.


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## botlguy (Apr 22, 2012)

I have always thought of 1855 - 1865 as the Iron Pontil / Improved Pontil (Graphite Pontil) era but definitely agree with Matt / AntiqueMeds that a proven date is what we need to have in order to call it fact, at least as for as can be determined. 

 I have read in this thread some outstanding evidence that the Improved Pontil was used 10 years before I thought it was and perhaps 5 years later. Thank you guys for your information. All of your approaches and attitudes are commendable. Excellent thread.


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## baltbottles (Apr 22, 2012)

Matt there is an iron pontiled soda from Baltimore marked Cole and Chickerng that dates probably dates 1844 by 1845 the firm was Cole Chickering and Gleason and the bottles were changed to Cole and company.

 of the 3 cole and chickering sodas known all are iron pontiled  there is however an open pontiled cole and company soda known but i believe this is a glass blowing fluke.

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 22, 2012)

thanks , that helps


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## cowseatmaize (Apr 22, 2012)

> It was replaced by another improvement (the snap case) around the civil war fairly quickly.


I agree with that for the US but if memory serves it came about in some form a bit earlier.
 Anyway, it appears that Mr. Munsey was about spot on with the 1845-70 range after reading this.
 What a great topic and so far from the political garbage that makes moderator positions so difficult.
 Thanks for bringing it to the table Matt. I think it may be worth a pin to the top or a breakdown as an FAQ.


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## CazDigger (Apr 22, 2012)

Smooth-base snap case bottles (John Clarke Saratoga-type) bottles were made, probably at Mt Vernon glassworks, sometime in 1834-1846, the years he was in business. There are iron pontiled versions of one of the later John Clarke pint bottles (closer to the 1846 date) made at a different glassworks. There are smooth base, sand pontil and iron pontil John Clarke bottles. Keep in mind, different glassworks and different workers used whatever tools they had and were comfotable with. If you were familiar with a particular way of making (mass producing) bottles, human nature says you will use the "old technology" to crank out as many bottles as you could in that shift unless there was a clear advantage. I worked with alot of guys in the 1980s who refused to learn how to use a computer! Placing a date on when a particular new advance was used is difficult at best. It clearly varied widely . As far as iron pontils, I think there are situations noted above where it was better to use, eg. larger bottles, etc. when open pontils or snap case were probably used at the same time for other bottle, eg. smaller medicines.


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## baltbottles (Apr 22, 2012)

I have to agree with Mark that there are many early smooth based bottles that were made along side pontiled bottles. I believe as more research is being done this has become far more obvious to collectors. I think you can safely call 1835-1865 a transitional era where various methods were being employed to hold the bottle while finishing its lip. You could also safely say that by 1870 the snap case had become the clear winner of these methods.

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 22, 2012)

there seems to have been various methods use in the same glass house at the same time based on the type of bottle being made.
 For instance a beer may have been held with a bare iron punty while a small medicine might have been held with a plow pipe rod.

 No question there are quite a few early smooth based bottles, especially the small flint medicines.
 I'm not conviced they were manipulated with a snap case though.


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## kungfufighter (Apr 22, 2012)

Paraphrasing here but Helen McKearin once wrote that "any discussions of dating glass should be punctuated with commas rather than periods."


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## div2roty (Apr 22, 2012)

> Paraphrasing here but Helen McKearin once wrote that "any discussions of dating glass should be punctuated with commas rather than periods."


 
 Meaning that not everything was known or that there are always exceptions?


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## saratogadriver (Apr 22, 2012)

I'd say "C, all of the above".

 I think for a decade or more, all these ways of manufacturing overlapped each other, depending on who the gaffer was or which factory was doing the work, or what tools were warmed up on a particular day.   And, sadly, a lot of the knowledge of such detail is long since lost.

 Jim G




> ORIGINAL:  div2roty
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 22, 2012)

I believe for the most part it has been generally accepted that iron pontiled sodas ended right around the 1860 mark, but i've always been curious as to how long after that they were possibly still being made that way. Great topic Matt!

 ~Tim


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 22, 2012)

As for the St. Louis area, Rudolph & John Adams was one of the first bottlers and in business as early as 1845. Their bottles are known with an iron pontiled base, although there is evidence of a few open pontiled examples from a couple of other soda water manufactures in or around the same time frame. I have never seen an OP R&J Adams bottle, whether one exists or not has yet to be discovered, but they are one of the earliest in business in that area of the country, and all of their examples are iron pontiled that are known. I know its already been covered that further back east they were using iron pontils on bottles much earlier, and I believe that is what you are working on defining. []

 ~Tim


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 22, 2012)

yes , a lot of glass making knowledge was lost.
 but, by looking at enough bottles which can be fairly precisely dated we might be able to fill in a few blanks.
 The exceptions dont really concern me much in this case, I'm more interested in the trends.


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## cowseatmaize (Apr 22, 2012)

> No question there are quite a few early smooth based bottles, especially the small flint medicines.
> I'm not conviced they were manipulated with a snap case though.


I've almost never seen an example that absolutely had to be pontil in my opinion.  I would think that real skilled workers with time on their hands could apply a gob and tool it  while it's in the mold or maybe after it cooled a bit. The experience of the maker and the quantity of production probably made a difference. It may have been faster for a less skilled worker to use a rod of some type.
 Exceptions would be where a fresh shear or crack off would have be to fire polished to smooth the lip.
 Of coarse this is just another whacked out theory of mine.[]


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## AntiqueMeds (Apr 22, 2012)

One thing I have noticed about early smooth based bottles is they are often flat on the bases and they often have small shards of glass melted into the bottoms.
 This makes me think that they were using the bench or floor as the base of the mold.
 These surfaces would be rough and covered with tiny shards which pretty much reflects these bottles' bases.
 They could also form a crude flat flared lip just by pressing on the top of the bottle which wouldnt require holding the bottle with a punty or snap-case.


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## cowseatmaize (Apr 22, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> One thing I have noticed about early smooth based bottles is they are often flat on the bases and they often have small shards of glass melted into the bottoms.
> This makes me think that they were using the bench or floor as the base of the mold.
> ...


I'm not an expert there either but Westford (1857-73) flasks comes to mind now with others. They are almost always called smooth base but always have an irregular base indent, as if something was pushed into the base. Talk about crude lip finishes too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[8|]


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## andy volkerts (Apr 23, 2012)

[] You are right Matt, I have a black glass Mrs S.A. Allens hair restorer that has a completely flat base with all kinds of glass pieces pushed up into it with a flattened tooled top that looks like it was made onna floor, crude as he__ I would post a pic of it if I wasnt so computer challenged[]  Its so dark it wont pass any light at all.........Andy


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## westernbittersnut (Apr 23, 2012)

For the western glass factories, 1859 was the beginning. Bottle examples from this factory have been found with sticky pontil mark. In 1860 an embossed medicine bottle was manufactured and examples of it have been found with a tubular pontil mark, iron oxide mark and smooth base all in the same year of manufacture.


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## GLOPTOP (Apr 28, 2012)

I have a rare cathedral pickle bottle embossed "Rowe & Co." with a graphite/iron pontil and in a light cornflower blue coloration, from Detroit, Mich. in the mid 1850's. The only other one that I know of was found in Canada several years ago and came from the same mold and in the same light cornflower blue color, but sports an open or tubular type pontil. Two different pontil applications at about the same time from the same glasshouse. I don't have a clue about the glasshouse they were made at, but would sure like to know. Any Michigan collectors out there that might have any info. on this bottle?


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 28, 2012)

Sounds like a really good one. You might contact Bill (justanolddigger). He's a big collector up in Michigan and might be able to help you in finding out more about it. []

 ~Tim


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## stlouisbottles (Apr 28, 2012)

Just to let you know Tim, I have held a green open pontil R&J Adams St Louis in my hands. It is in a collection and it is not for sale. I have a J.Cairns & Co. St Louis that is open pontil. I have seen a few others from St Louis but off the top of my head I cannot remember the names on them.


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks so much Theo, i'll document that. I've always figured there very well could be one. Did you have the OP Cairns when we was there? I'd love to have a photo of it if you didn't mind. Besides the M&W tenpin, I believe an M&W late soda shape could exist as well open pontiled. With the E.L. known, it's also possible other Lesters could exist that way. I also have my suspicions of others, but none verified as of yet. []

 ~Tim


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## stlouisbottles (Apr 28, 2012)

Yes, I did have the Cairns at the time and it was boxed up in the other room. I should have got it out and let you take a pic but forgot about it.


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## stlouisbottles (Apr 28, 2012)

Here is a pic of the base.


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## stlouisbottles (Apr 28, 2012)

Here is a pic of the front of the bottle.


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 28, 2012)

With all that killer stuff there to look at, I know we couldn't think straight! It was a great time for us, I wish we would have had more time. []

 ~Tim


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## bottlekid76 (Apr 28, 2012)

Awesome, thanks Theo!!

 ~Tim


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## bottlekid76 (May 22, 2012)

After getting the later C. Alfs soda, it got me thinking a little more about this subject. Norman Heckler stated that C. Alfs Soda Water was advertised in the 1836 Charleston City Directory. The cobalt pyramid bottle is believed to have been in circulation as early as 1839. All (what few) known examples bare an iron pontil mark from what I have gathered, though the period would indicate it would or should have been likely with an open blowpipe pontil. I seen where Tod suspects the iron pontil dating around 1844. I'm sure much further research is needed beyond what I do know about it. Tod may also have more information as to a more defined dating of the Alfs bottle.

 ~Tim


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## dave092162 (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re:  RE: what do we know about Iron Pontil marks*

[] Greetings from West Chester PA and Best Wishes to all my fellow collectors !!! Great Site here and glad to be a member.


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## RIBottleguy (Jan 24, 2015)

*Re:  RE: what do we know about Iron Pontil marks*

Great info!  I can't contribute much, but here's a smaller medicine (ca. 5") with an iron pontil mark.


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