# Vernors Ginger Ale 150th B-Day



## iggyworf

Vernors Ginger Ale. Considered the 1st 'soda' pop. Is celebrating it's 150th anniversary this wk in Detroit Michigan.  Started by James Vernon in a Detroit pharmacy before the civil war. And being sold by 1880(not 1866). It's a Detroit staple. I am not sure how far it's distributed, but Michigan and the surrounding states know all about it. Including Canada.

In honor of that I wanted to show all my Vernors bottles. And some links for more info  on Vernors. Thanx and I hope you enjoy.

1st pic - three are embossed. The first 2 of those are from Canada.
2nd - PL from Canada also. Probably late 70's.
3rd -  ACL a.1973 with Gnome on the neck harder to find. b. 1967 1pt 12oz, harder to find c. 1976 32 oz
4th pic - Foil labels all 28oz early 70's
5th pic - PL two 1liters 1979(20cent deposit) 2 28oz mid 70's
6th pic - PL 16.9oz 1979, ACL 16oz & two 16.9oz 1978-1985-1988
7th pic - 3 ACL 10.6oz 80's, 8oz 69, 12oz limited edition 2000, 10oz foam label stubby, 10oz embossed, probably had a PL.
8th pic - 12oz can pull tab & stubby again




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernors
http://detroithistorical.org/learn/encyclopedia-of-detroit/vernors-ginger-ale


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## hemihampton

I got a bunch of different Vernor's cans. One is even from Gardenia California so it was sold out there. LEON.


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## RCO

found my first vernor's bottle In a dig a few weeks back , it was from Windsor Ontario so it was sold in Ontario too . I've also seen some older aqua bottles from Windsor so it must of been sold there fairly early on . 
also tried a can of vernors as well , I liked it , it definity has a unique taste compared to other ginger ales I'm used to ,


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## iggyworf

Leon, I knew you had to have a bunch of those. Thanx for posting them. RCO, yes it is different from other ginger ales. 'Deliciously Different'


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## Canadacan

A couple of Canadian 1970's cans for you...very cool post iggyworf!


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## M.C.Glass

I have a nice mid 50s 2-qt. bottle carrier and an extract bottle with the cap and nice paper label.



The blueish embossed bottle has the Food and Drug Act Guarantee on the back. 
The "Detroit's Drink" embossed, pre dates the "Deliciously Different" embossed. Both are missing rare paper labels. I saw one offered last year that someone stuck into an album, but no luck.


And an unused "genuine cap with the red lettering" referred to on the embossed bottles from 1910 era.

Sorry, I gotta get a photo setup with some lighting.


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## iggyworf

Cool stuff you guys. Thanx for sharin. I love that extract bottle.


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## hemihampton

I like the Canadian versions & like that extract bottle, Been trying to find a Vernor's Med or Pharmacy bottle from late 1800's but no luck digging one & when they rarely pop up in ebay they always get over $100.00  LEON.


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## iggyworf

For those interested, here is a link from google books with excellent info and pics and history. Fascinating stuff.

https://books.google.com/books?id=X...EILzAB#v=onepage&q=vernors ginger ale&f=false


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## hemihampton

I think I heard on the news they were having some celebration over the weekend at Vernors plant. Only heard the end of story, so not exactly sure whats going on? LEON.


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## hemihampton

Here's a link. LEON.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/vernors-ce...rsary-detroit-historical-museum-to-host-party


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## SODAPOPBOB

Iggy / Rich

Nice collection of Vernor's bottles - Thanks for sharing

Here's a recent link about the anniversary - where I found this picture of the Vernor's drug store on 235 Woodward Ave, Detroit, Michigan. It also has a lot of other pictures as well as a Vernor's timeline ...

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detroit/June-2016/A-Ginger-Tale/


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## SODAPOPBOB

hemihampton said:


> View attachment 172549View attachment 172550I like the Canadian versions & like that extract bottle, Been trying to find a Vernor's Med or Pharmacy bottle from late 1800's but no luck digging one & when they rarely pop up in ebay they always get over $100.00  LEON.



Leon

This bottle appears to be the same as the one you posted except it has an original paper label ...


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## iggyworf

Thanx Bob! I haven't seen that link before, Thanx.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

I don't intend to rewrite the Vernor's history, but I do want to say there is quite a bit of confusion as to when Vernor's Ginger Ale was first produced. For example; the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to includes Detroit newspapers that go back as far as 1837, which is six years before James Vernor was born in 1843. And yet the earliest mention of Vernor's Ginger Ale I can find is 1885. I'm not sure when Vernor's Ginger Ale was first produced, but based on what I'm seeing the 1866 date is possibly when James Vernor established his pharmacy but not when he actually started producing and selling ginger ale.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Go back to the link I posted and in the Vernor's timeline you will see where it says ...

*1866 Vernor opens Vernor’s Pharmacy at 235 Woodward Ave., where he starts selling his ginger ale.*

Note: I question the part where it says he started selling his ginger ale in 1866!


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## SODAPOPBOB

On second thought, maybe I will try and rewrite some of the Vernor's history. The reason I say this is because there also seems to be some confusion as to when James Vernon started his pharmacy at 235 Woodward Ave. 

Notice in this article where it mentions ...

 "*the drug store of Messrs. Vernor & L'Hommedieu, 219 Woodward Ave*"

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ August 3, *1867*



Now notice in this next article where it indicates the company was "*dissolved*" and James Vernor bought out his partner Charles L'Hommedieu, and that the drug store was located at 219 Woodward Ave.

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ December 11, *1868*




Question: 

If James Vernor was located at 219 Woodward Ave. in 1867 and 1868, then how could he have started a drug store at 235 Woodward Ave. in 1866? 

Note: There are zero newspaper articles about James Vernor having a drug store at 235 Woodward Ave. in 1866. The 1867 and 1868 articles above are the earliest mention I can find of him having any connection with any drug store in Detroit at that time.


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## hemihampton

Maybe they meant it was the place he started selling his Vernors, at that same store he started in 1866 (or 67 or 68) but did not sell it at that same time but at that same store at later date?  LEON.


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## iggyworf

It is possible that way back then, newspapers were not accurate. Some accounts say that Vernors was not sold first in 1866 but 1880.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I hear what you guys are saying, but I'm still confused why 99 out of 100 accounts say Vernor's Ginger Ale was first produced and sold in Detroit in 1866? If the 1866 date is merely referring to when James Vernor established his drug store, then why don't they say as much? 

All I know at the moment is that this newspaper snippet is the earliest published account for Vernors Ginger Ale I have been able to find so for ...

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ June 28, *1884*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Vernor's newspaper accounts, here's just one of hundreds ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ June 17, 1941




Key wording ...

1. *1866*

2. Offered over his drug store counter, Vernor's Ginger Ale was received with *immediate* enthusiasm.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Not to mention numerous accounts like this ...


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## iggyworf

You may be right Bob about 1866. I have seen this a few times though 'Vernor's ginger ale first entered commerce in 1880, not 1866' Now what would the meaning of that be?

Could it be that he did not sell it anywhere but his drug store until 1880? That's what the 'commerce' might stand for. That's when he started selling outside his store maybe?


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## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> On second thought, maybe I will try and rewrite some of the Vernor's history. The reason I say this is because there also seems to be some confusion as to when James Vernon started his pharmacy at 235 Woodward Ave.
> 
> Notice in this article where it mentions ...
> 
> "*the drug store of Messrs. Vernor & L'Hommedieu, 219 Woodward Ave*"
> 
> From ...
> 
> The Detroit Free Press ~ August 3, *1867*
> 
> View attachment 172697
> 
> Now notice in this next article where it indicates the company was "*dissolved*" and James Vernor bought out his partner Charles L'Hommedieu, and that the drug store was located at 219 Woodward Ave.
> 
> From ...
> 
> The Detroit Free Press ~ December 11, *1868*
> 
> View attachment 172698
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> If James Vernor was located at 219 Woodward Ave. in 1867 and 1868, then how could he have started a drug store at 235 Woodward Ave. in 1866?
> 
> Note: There are zero newspaper articles about James Vernor having a drug store at 235 Woodward Ave. in 1866. The 1867 and 1868 articles above are the earliest mention I can find of him having any connection with any drug store in Detroit at that time.



All I can say is, I did an extensive search and the next date showing James Vernor having any connection with a business in Detroit that followed the 1867 and 1868 dates above is ... 

The Detroit Free Press ~ May 22, *1869*

Note: This doesn't necessarily date his ginger ale, but only his drug store. I still can't find an 1866 date!  

 

(I'll be back)


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## iggyworf

Great work again Bob! Waiting to see what you can come up with.


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## hemihampton

Yes, Thanks for the info & research. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is likely the best I'm going to come up with as far as the addresses/locations are concerned. I'm still working on the ginger ale date(s) ...

*1866-1867* Detroit Directory - Speed Scroll to Page 305 - pdf 

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/detroit/1866 Detroit Directory.pdf

The bds stands for "Boarding House" and apparently is where James Vernor lived at the time. 80 Farrar Street is the address.

Notice the "Vernor & L'Hommedieu"



*August 23, 1866* - New pharmaceutical members - Vernor and L'Hommedieu - No address



*August 3, 1867* - Vernor & L'Hommedieu - 219 Woodward Avenue



*1868* - 219 Woodward Ave



Everything prior to this next listing shows the 219 Woodward Avenue address - This is the earliest date I can find for the 235 Woodward Avenue address. 

 

I'm also trying to figure out exactly who Charles L'Hommedieu was and why he is rarely if ever mentioned in the various Vernor's histories. 

(To be continued)


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## hemihampton

There is is Vernors book out there, tells the History of Vernor's with lots of old Pics ect, ect. Produced 5-10 years ago I think. Lots of good info in It. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

If you're referring to Lawrence L. Rouch's book published in 2003, I have a copy but its just as confusing as most of the histories I've read. It has lots of good pictures, but the author supports the 1866 birth date for the ginger ale and doesn't mention the 219 Woodward Avenue address nor Charles L'Hommedieu. In fact, Rouch's chronology in the back of the book states that 1866 is the "official" birth date for Vernor's Ginger Ale. Which could very well be true, except that I'd like to see some docu-mented proof of that date to set the record straight. 

Here's the cover of the 128 page book I have ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...

I honestly think there is something fishy about the numerous claims that state ...

"*Vernor's Ginger Ale was born and first served at James Vernor's drug store at 235 Woodward Avenue in 1866*"


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## hemihampton

NO, I was thinking of another book by Keith Wunderlich in 2008. I don't have the book or the one you mentioned. LEON.


P.S. This book mentions they are not so sure of the Aged 4 years story while he was off serving in the civil war.


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## M.C.Glass

I have Keith Wunderlich's Vernor's book, from Arcadia Publishing, with those sepia cover photos of historical subjects of every town in the US.
In it, he states that in a 1932 publication, Pharmaceutical Era, it says Vernor's Ginger Ale sales were $700 in 1870, and rose to $10,000 in 1872.
The 235 Woodward address was considered too far north of town to do brisk business, so JV was looking to draw customers in with the fountain and flower sales.


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## M.C.Glass

Have an 1870 Det. Directory page showing Vernor's Pharmacy at 235 Woodward.


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## sunrunner

Vernors the best Ginger ale on the market !


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## SODAPOPBOB

The following link is to the earliest docu-mented history of Vernor's Ginger Ale that I'm aware of ...

When it opens, scroll back to Page 140 where the article starts. Notice on Page 143 where it says ...

"He [James Vernor] came back to Detroit in 1866 and entered into the retail drug business in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu, *later* buying the latter's interest and continuing until he embarked in the ginger ale business."

When you couple the link information with the attached newspaper snippet, where it indicates the Vernor/L'Hommedieu partnership was officially dissolved on December 7, 1868, it sounds to me that the earliest James Vernor could have ventured out on his own and relocated to 235 Woodward Avenue would have been in late 1868 or early 1869. 

*The Bulletin of Pharmacy  -  Detroit, Michigan*

1919

Note: Of all the histories I've read about Vernor's, this one appears to be the most accurate, especially because it includes mention of Charles L'Hommedieu.

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...#v=onepage&q=Vernor's Ginger Ale 1866&f=false

Newspaper article - Detroit Free Press - December 11, 1868


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Especially notice in the 1919 history where it says in the first sentence ...

"*Starting as a retail druggist, way back in 1868, James Vernor, Detroit, has built up a mammoth business on ginger ale*"

1868


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## SODAPOPBOB

1866


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## SODAPOPBOB

Off topic but ...

Just in case you don't hear from me later its because my community is currently in the path of a raging brush fire. They have already issued an evacuation notice but myself and numerous other residents are staying put as long as we can. Currently the winds are to the east and pushing the fire away from us, but if they switch to the north, it could get dicey around here. 

The red outline on this map shows where the fire has already burned - with the red arrow pointing north - the yellow X is about where I live and only about four miles north of the currently active blaze. For more information, Google "San Diego County Border Fire." 

Map ...



Plane dropping fire retardant ...



Firefighter wishing he was somewhere else ...


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## iggyworf

Stay safe Bob!


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## andy volkerts

Yeah Ditto here!!


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## M.C.Glass

It seems normal to me, that if a fella comes out of the army in early 1866 or so, and discovers that his ginger ale has mellowed in the barrel for four years and tastes great;
You are going to have trouble getting your business going until you can create additional batches of GA and let them age for four years.
So, by 1870, you are able to deliver the proper aged stuff and create a sensation.

Bob, stay safe out there.


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## hemihampton

Yes, in 1870 it would of been his next batch that aged 4 years. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Rich, Andy, and MCglass

Thanks for the words of concern. They finally got the fire under control by creating a backfire about a mile ahead of the main fire, which created a sort of neutral zone that impeded the main fire's progress to the north. Because the winds dictate a fires direction, they only do backfires as a last-ditch effort, which in this case worked. The closest the fire got to where I live was about two miles. Myself and numerous others stayed put during the evacuation to help keep an eye on things, but were ready to evacuate if necessary. There were so many fire crews and emergency personal in the area during the three day evacuation that it was like a war zone. Fortunately everything worked out for the best and we are now getting back to normal. It will take at least a week or more for the utility company's to replace the dozens of poles that burned. As of yesterday they were already on the job setting new poles, many of which had to be transported by helicopters such as this one I captured a picture of in flight ...




Here's a helicopter dropping water on one of numerous "hot spots." It will take CAL FIRE several days to fully extinguish all of the hot spots like this ...




(I will be back shortly with more Vernor's stuff)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Back to Vernor's Ginger Ale ...

I'm still liking the 1919 account best because it was compiled while James Vernor was still alive and some of it is in his own words. James Vernor was born in 1843 and was 76 years old in 1919 when the article was written. He died in 1927, which was eight years after the article was written.

Especially notice the title itself ...

*A Druggist Side-line that Eventually Became a Big Business*

For me, the key word in the title is "Eventually"  This leads me to believe that James Vernor's ginger ale wasn't served on day one but came later, possibly as late as 1868. 

Notice on page one of the 1919 article where James Vernor says in his own words ...

*"Our gross receipts in this particular department [ginger ale] jumped from $800 in 1868 to $10,000 in 1870."*

For me, Vernor's own words suggest at least three possibilities ...

1. That he did not venture out and start his own drug store until 1868. It appears that prior to 1868 he was partnered with Charles L'Hommedieu for two years and located at 219 Woodward Avenue.

2. That he didn't relocate to 235 Woodward Avenue until 1868 or 1869.

3. That even if there is some truth to the 1866 date, where James Vernor said "$800 in 1868" indicates to me that he could not have aged his ginger ale for four years. 1866 to 1868 is only two years!

Here's the link again to the 1919 publication ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...#v=onepage&q=Vernor's Ginger Ale 1866&f=false

(More later)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because I don't want to keep going in circles, I guess I'll just have to rest my case with this listing from a ...

1867-1868 Detroit, Michigan Directory



Which shows the (druggist) partnership of James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu located at 219 Woodward Avenue and not 235 Woodward Avenue. 

Note: I consider directories as some of the most accurate and reliable resources for setting historical records straight!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the way I currently see things, and will stand corrected if proven otherwise ...

*1865* = James Vernor returns to Detroit, Michigan after the Civil War ends in the spring of 1865.

*1866* = James Vernor is officially registered as the first druggist in the state of Michigan.

*1867* = James Vernor partners with Charles L'Hommedieu and they open a drug store at 219 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Michigan.

*1868* = James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu officially dissolve their partnership. James Vernor relocates to 235 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Michigan.  

*1868* = James Vernor develops and serves ginger ale for the first time at 235 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Michigan.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Vernor's Ginger Ale 1866?



I have reason to believe that date is incorrect!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Aged Four Years?

I have reason to believe the first batch (1868) wasn't aged at all!


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Next question ...*

When was Vernor's Ginger Ale first *bottled*?

1. First extract bottle date?

2. First carbonated bottle date?


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## hemihampton

My Retro 6 pack. On the side they tell the 1866 Story. If this date was proven wrong, it may be to hard to change/rewrite History. LEON.


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## hemihampton

Side Story close up. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> *Next question ...*
> 
> When was Vernor's Ginger Ale first *bottled*?
> 
> 1. First extract bottle date?  1887
> 
> 2. First carbonated bottle date? 1897




I still need to do some additional searching, but as it stands now the earliest dates I can find are added in red to the above ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

Its not so much that I'm trying to rewrite history as it is to shed some light on the subject for others to reference in the future. I'm not sure who or when someone started using the 1866 date, but as near as I can determine it was the Vernors themselves. The only docu-mented account I can find for James Vernor from 1866 are those that state he and Charles L'Hommedieu became members of the Michigan druggist society in 1866. Specifically in August of 1866.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I don't save every account I find, but I do recall one account where James Vernor Jr. and James Vernor III both said in their own words that neither of them fully accepted all of their father's and grandfather's claims about the early days of the company. I'll go back and see if I can find those accounts, and then post them.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Some new directory dates ...*


*1864-1865* Detroit Directory 

No James Vernor ~ He was still involved with the Civil War at the time. Benjamin Vernor was James' brother who was an insurance agent.






*1866-1867* Detroit Directory

James Vernor & Charles L'Hommedieu ~ drugs retail, 219 Woodward Avenue


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's James Vernor's Civil War record, showing he mustered out on July 1, 1865 ...


Name: James Vernor 

Residence: Detroit, Michigan 

Age at Enlistment: 19 

Enlistment Date: 14 Aug 1862 

Rank at enlistment: Hospl Steward 

Enlistment Place: Detroit, Michigan 

State Served: Michigan 

Was POW?: Yes 

Survived the War?: Yes 

Service Record:

Enlisted in Company S, Michigan 4th Cavalry Regiment on 29 Aug 1862. Promoted to Full 2nd Lieutenant on 20 Sep 1864. Mustered out on 01 Jul 1865 at Nashville, TN.  

Birth Date: 1843 

Death Place: Grosse Isle, Michigan 1927 

Sources: Record of Service of Michigan Volunteers 1861-65 Union Blue: History of MOLLUS


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## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> I still need to do some additional searching, but as it stands now the earliest dates I can find are added in red to the above ...



Based on the most reliable sources I can find, it appears that James Vernor bottled his carbonated ginger ale for the first time in ...

1896

Which apparently was a crown finish bottle as there are no examples or records to support that he ever used a Hutchinson type bottle.


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## hemihampton

I read somewhere that some of his first carbonated bottles from that time frame were not crown top but porcelin stopper or rubber lightning stopper. Not sure if thats true, I have not seen any. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Even Keith Wunderlich, who is supposed to be the most advanced Vernor's collector in the United States and possibly the world, says ...

"There are conflicting stories about how the ginger ale first began. The most popular story, and one found frequently in the Vernor's Company's own literature, says that Vernor began experimenting with a formula for ginger ale prior to leaving for the Civil War. Upon returning from the war, he opened a wooden cask of his extract and found the taste he had been hoping to discover. The secret combination of ingredients, along with the four years of aging in wooden casks during the Civil War, perfected his ginger ale. Another story says he began experimenting with his formula after returning from the war." 

http://vernorsclub.weebly.com/vernors-history.html


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## SODAPOPBOB

These Google Books snippets are the first and only accounts I have found that appear to have gotten at least half of it right. Its from a 1966 book titled ...

"Historical Sketches of Chemistry in Michigan"

Notice where it says ...

*In 1866, James S. Vernor, a Civil War veteran, and partner Charles L'Hommedieu, druggist at 219 Woodward Avenue, first served ginger ale in their drug store.*






Notes:

I'm still not convinced of the 1866 date, but I am convinced the original address was 219 Woodward and not 235 Woodward. Now I'm wondering if the Vernors used the 235 Woodward Avenue address in their recollections and historical accounts so they wouldn't have to include Charles L'Hommedieu and share credit with him for the birth of Vernor's Ginger Ale?


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Just in case I'm right about some of this, I'd like to take this opportunity and be the first to acknowledge and give credit to ...


Charles L'Hommedieu

... as possibly having *something* to do with the creation and birth of Vernor's Ginger Ale in Detroit, Michigan.


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## SODAPOPBOB

What I find even more interesting is, I checked the 1868-1869 and 1869-1870 Detroit directories, and both of the them list James Vernor as still being located at 219 Woodward Avenue. It isn't until the 1871-1872 Detroit directory that James Vernor is listed at 235 Woodward Avenue. With that said, why do 99.9% of the historical accounts say Vernor's Ginger Ale was born in 1866 and first served at 235 Woodward Avenue when James Vernor didn't move to 235 Woodward Avenue until 1870 or 1871? Hmmm, something is fishy in Denmark! Err, I mean "Detroit"

*1871-1872 Detroit Directory*  ~ Source Ancestry.com


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the 1866 Michigan annual tax record for ...

Vernor & L'Hommedieu  ~  219 Woodward Avenue  ~  Apothecaries 

Noun, plural apothecaries.  

1. a druggist; a pharmacist. 

2. a pharmacy or drugstore.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Question;

*Need I say more?*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ...

*Charles A. L'Hommedieu*

Born: September 4, 1842
Died: December 30, 1890

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=11813793&ref=acom

(I'm going to see what else I can find about him)


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## iggyworf

Bob thanx for digging deep into one of my hometown soda's. Didn't think there would be any kind of contraversy so to speak about the beginings. 
But why would he not want to give any credit to *Charles A. L'Hommedieu?*


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## hemihampton

I know where that Woodmere Cemetary is, I dig privies & bottles near it. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:


> But why would he not want to give any credit to *Charles A. L'Hommedieu?*



Rich

I don't know the answer to that yet, but show me a typical/current Vernor's history that mentions the name Charles L'Hommedieu and I'll eat my hat!


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I will also eat my hat if anyone can show me documented proof of James Vernor being located at *235 Woodward Avenue* in 1866. And by "documented" I don't mean a typical/current Vernor's history. I mean something from that actual year!


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## M.C.Glass

Why are you asking Bob why? He wasn't there either. Maybe Lahommedeu disagreed with spending time and resources on soft drinks. That could be why the partners split. Or it could have been over politics. Or a disagreement over sharing the rent. It takes brass cohones to refute first hand accounts after a period of a hundred+ years.
Ya have to separate the opinion from the public records, 
also, city directories sent out cards for people to fill out and that's where the info came from. If they get lost or mutilated in the mail or misplaced, I doubt they lift out the previous years listing or update the address on time.
I do enjoy the discussion.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I will post some official documents later, but all I have time for at the moment is to tell you that ...

1. Just prior to joining the Civil War in 1862, James Vernor worked at Higby & Stearns in Detroit and was about 19 years old.

2. I can't find any documentation showing that Charles L'Hommedieu served in the Civil War, but the 1863 through 1865 Detroit directories list him as a clerk/salesman for Farrand, Shely & Company, which was a wholesale drug business in Detroit located at 435 Woodward Avenue.

3. In 1866 James Vernor was 23 years old and Charles L'Hommedieu was 22 years. Even though both had prior experience as drug store clerks/salesmen, its impressive that a 23 and 22 year old were able to start their own drug store in 1866. The hat I might have to eat later is off to both of them!


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## SODAPOPBOB

MCglass said:


> Maybe Lahommedeu disagreed with spending time and resources on soft drinks. That could be why the partners split. Or it could have been over politics. Or a disagreement over sharing the rent.



MCglass

Later, I might be able to shed some light on why they split. I have been tracking what Charles L'Hommedieu did from 1868 on, and some of it is quite revealing.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Another Question:

Where did a 23 year old man, fresh out of the Civil War, and a 22 year old drug store clerk, get the necessary money to start a partnership and open their own drug store?


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## SODAPOPBOB

About James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu, with some rarely disclosed information and dates ...

1919


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Charles A. L'Hommedieu
Born: September 4, 1842
Died: December 30, 1890 ~ 48 years old*

Cropped from 1919 article ...

Note: The use of the word "retired" is a polite way of saying he quit to pursue other interest.



*Brief Timeline* ...

The 1869 through 1873 Directories only show a residence address for him and not an occupation. The following Directory listings include occupations and addresses ...

*1863-64*

Note: Farrand, Sheley & Co. was a wholesale drug business.



*1864-65*



*1868* ~ Newspaper



*1874* ~ (No pertinent records found between 1869 and 1873)



Note:  Between 1874 and the time of his death in 1890, every available directory list him as an agent, most of which specifically saying a "Travel Agent" 

*1889* 




Note:  I do not know exactly why he dissolved his partnership with James Vernor, but my best guess is that he had other interest in mind and pursued a career as a Travel Agent instead.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I forgot to mention it appears to me that Charles L'Hommedieu retired/quit/dissolved his accociation with James Vernor *before* Vernor's Ginger Ale was created/born/served.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Photo Timeline ...



*Circa 1870s*





*1940s*







*1950s-60s and Later*



*2016* ~ What the downtown location looks like today ~ Same 1870s corner location


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Side-by-side comparison of same corner location on Woodward Avenue ...

1870s



Current ~ 2015-2016


----------



## iggyworf

That's a cool photo timeline Bob! I have been by there many times in the past.


----------



## hemihampton

Are you sure that's the same corner, was it at woodward & Jefferson? I thought it was a block closer to the river & that road now gone? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

The skyscraper I posted is a Google Earth result when I searched 235 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan.

According to every historical account I have seen, Vernor's original drug store is described as being located at either ...

1. 235 Woodward Avenue

or ...

2. Corner of Woodward and Clifford 

Of course, their were also later locations, such as ...

*33 Woodward Ave*

... which is where Vernor moved to around 1896. 

According to the Detroit Historical Society, this picture is dated circa 1900

Note: Click at the bottom where it shows Full Data

http://detroiths.pastperfect-online.com/33029cgi/mweb.exe?request=image;hex=2011036157.JPG


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

33 Woodward Avenue is where James Vernor first *bottled* his ginger ale around 1896


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Example of Woodward and Clifford ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Note:  I'm starting to do exactly what I did not intend, and that's to try and place every piece of the Vernor's puzzle together, when what I really had in mind was to only focus on two primary aspects, which are ...

1. The 1866 date.
2. The 219 and 235 Woodward Avenue addresses.

So with that said, I'm going back to my original plan and only focus on those two basic aspects. I will leave it for others to try and figure out the rest of it, such as where James Vernor moved to and when, which is just as, if not more confusing than his early years between about 1866 and 1870.

Which brings us to this advertisement from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1868

 

Notice:

1. Vernor & L'Hommedieu
2. 219 Woodward Avenue

3. Where it says ...

"*Been in use but ten days*"

This is a pretty vague reference connecting Vernor & L'Hommedieu with anything "soda fountain" related, but because it indicates the fountain was "used," it leads me to suspect they used it to dispense ginger ale, and possibly other fountain beverages. 

Here's what I found regarding "Arctic Soda Fountains." (Of course there were other Arctic models, and I can't say for certain which model was being sold by Vernor & L'Hommedieu in the 1868 ad). 

http://www.hagley.org/librarynews/quenching-thirst-knowledge-about-soda-water


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question(s):

I wonder why they used the Arctic Fountain for only ten days? Was it not what they expected it to be? And did they replace it with something else? And was it their first soda fountain apparatus? 

Answer:

We may never know!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As it stands now ...

1. I'm okay with the claims that state James Vernor established a drug store in 1866

2. I'm not okay with the claims that state James Vernor established a drug store by himself in 1866

3. I'm not okay with the claims that state James Vernor's first drug store was located at 235 Woodward Avenue

4. I'm not okay with the claims that state Vernor's Ginger Ale was first served at 235 Woodward Avenue in 1866

As it stands now ...

1. It appears to me that the 1866 drug store was a partnership enterprise between James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu

2. It appears to me that the original drug store was located at 219 Woodward Avenue and not 235 Woodward Avenue

3. It appears to me that Vernor's Ginger Ale was first served in 1868 and not 1866

4. It appears to me that Vernor's Ginger Ale was first served at 219 Woodward Avenue and not 235 Woodward Avenue

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I take back what I said earlier about Charles L'Hommedieu possibly not being associated with James Vernor when Vernor developed his ginger ale. The April 7, 1868 advertisement about selling the Arctic fountain apparatus now leads me to suspect that Charles L'Hommedieu was involved with "some type" of fountain service at 219 Woodward Avenue. Remember, the partnership between Vernor and L'Hommedieu was not officially dissolved until December 7, 1868 ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Advanced reading where you will find (in part) ...

http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/servlet/org.oclc.lac.ui.DialABookServlet?oclcnum=52623519


Two legends have been passed down about the origin of Vernor's Ginger Ale. In the first, James Vernor is said to have developed the first batch while working at Higby and Stearn's, storing it in a small oak keg where it brewed while he served in the Union Army. Returning four years later, he discovered his drink had matured to that "deliciously different" flavor. In the other version, Vernor carried the idea in his head throughout the war and first brewed the formula after returning to Detroit and establishing his own drugstore. 

The first legend is more exciting and nicely fits the "Aged 4 Years in Wood" claim that the company promoted since its beginning, but the second is more plausible. James would probably not have left his experimental keg of soda in an employer's basement while going to war. James's son said in 1936, "I suspect that all through the war he carried in his mind that formula for the soft drink," implying the formula had not yet been mixed while Vernor was at war. A 1962 interview with James Vernor Davis, president of the company from 1952 to 1966, also dismisses this theory.



James Vernor entered the industry just as it began to take off, finding his new career after his service in the Civil War. Upon returning to Detroit, Vernor quickly resumed work in the pharmacy business, opening a drugstore on the corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street with Charles L'Hommedieu. They bought their own carbonation equipment and began dispensing their own soft drinks. Whether Vernor had retrieved his legendary wooden keg at the end of the war or actually began formulating his ginger ale at this point, this was the beginning of the Vernor's empire.


----------



## hemihampton

Clifford is 7 blocks north of Woodward & Jefferson where that newer Skyscraper pic was taken. When he moved in 1896 to 33 Woodward I think he moved closer to the River. Here is a Pic of Woodward looking south to the River. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

I'm not sure if anything remains of the first two Vernor's locations, but the best descriptions I can find for both is ... 

1866-1896 - 235 Woodward Avenue - Southwest corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street



1896-1940 - 33 Woodward Avenue - South of Jefferson



Interior - 33 Woodward Avenue - circa 1922



Woodward Avenue - circa 1900 - (ink/woodblock)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a brief history about Woodward Avenue ...

http://www.motorcities.org/Story/Woodward+Avenue++the+Spine+of+Detroit-168.html

And here's a 1807 map of downtown Detroit

It doesn't show Clifford Street, but it does show Woodward Ave in the center going somewhat north and south and Jefferson Avenue near the bottom going somewhat east and west. This was long before any changes were made along the waterfront.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If 33 Wooward Avenue was "south of Jefferson" then Vernor's 1896-1940 drug store should have been located somewhere in the vicinity of the yellow X


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's what that area of downtown Detroit looks like today ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

When world's collide ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

I got the location right this time for ...

*Vernor's Drug Store
Southwest Corner of Woodward Avenue & Clifford Street
235 Woodward Avenue
Detroit, Michigan*



1873 Map of Detroit



2016 Google Earth Aerial



2016 Google Earth Street View


----------



## hemihampton

hemihampton said:


> Are you sure that's the same corner, was it at woodward & Jefferson? I thought it was a block closer to the river & that road now gone? LEON.




I'm quoting myself, Like I said, 1 block closer to the river & that road now gone. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Four+ hours of studying dozens of Detroit maps finally paid off with ...

*1884* Detroit Map

*Drugs*  ~  Corner of Woodward St. and Clifford St.  ~  Notice the number 235 on the Woodward side of the building ...





*1897* Detroit Map

*SODA WATER FACT'Y* - Notice the number 33 on the Woodward side of the building ~  Located between Woodbridge and At-water. Woodbridge St. is one block south of Jefferson Ave. ...





*1807* Detroit Map for birds-eye view. The colored squares at the bottom indicate ...

Green = Woodbridge Street
Blue = At-water Street



Note: For some reason it won't allow me to use the word "At-water" so I had to hyphenize it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was curious what type of business was at 33 Woodward Avenue before James Vernor moved there around 1896, and discovered that in 1884 the building was a Shoe Factory. Of course I don't know how long the Shoe Factory was in business, nor if other types of businesses occupied the building between 1884 and 1896, but I think its interesting to note it was a Shoe Factory at least 12 years before Vernor moved there. Vernor was located at the 33 Woodward address for about 44 years between 1896 and 1940 when he relocated again to the well known downtown multistory building.

*1884* Detroit Map


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

However ...

Its possible that only the shaded area //// on the 1884 map was the Shoe Factory and that the Woodward side of the property was a vacant lot - I'm really not sure!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Standby ...

I just figured out that the shaded areas on the "Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps," like the ones I have been posting, indicate the businesses that Sandborn insured. So any building that was not insured by Sandborn would not be shown on their maps. In other words, there were definitely other businesses in that particular block, some prior to 1884, and some after 1884, which I will be posting newspaper ads for just as soon as I get them together. For starters, here's one from ...

*April 14, 1884*



Note: I title everything with "Vernor" whether it applies directly to James Vernor or not - that way all of my saved stuff is alphabetized in the same file.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's another ad from ...

*1899*

Note: James Vernor did not use the entire building at 33 Woodward - He rented out some of it.


 

Note: Now all I have to do is fill in the gaps between 1884 and 1899 and see who occupied 33 Woodward Avenue during that 15 year timespan.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which tells us this 1922 picture of the interior at 33 Woodward was likely on the ground floor - and most likely in the back of what appears to be an extremely long building as indicated on the 1897 map. The drug store and soda fountain were surely in the front of the building.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just realized there's no way that I'm going to be able to figure out who all of the businesses were at 33 Woodward Avenue prior to when James Vernor moved there in 1896. The building had four floors and the ads I'm finding don't say which floor the business was on. Such as this one from ... 

*July 2, 1891* 
(Which will be exactly 125 years ago tomorrow)

  :flag:


Note:  I just discovered that I typoed the image title which shows July 27 - It should be July 2


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In case you're getting your buildings mixed-up, here's the 33 Woodward Avenue building again. But I'm not sure of the exact date for this particular picture. Nor am I certain if it shows three floors or four. The upper un-windowed part could be an attic loft?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ...

This picture definitely shows four floors ... which leads me to believe the last picture was earlier and that the building, plus the ones on either side of it, had been added to ...

View attachment 172939


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or ...

The black & White picture is the newer one and the buildings had the upper floors "*removed*" ... ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

Do you know when they changed the Detroit waterfront and eliminated/demolished the now-gone streets and buildings?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Leon
> 
> Do you know when they changed the Detroit waterfront and eliminated/demolished the now-gone streets and buildings?



In answer to my own question, according to the maps I've been looking at, it appears the riverfront reconstruction project took place sometime between 1944 and 1949 - give or take a few years ...

*1944* Detroit Map



*1949* Detroit Map


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy / Leon / Anyone

Help! I'm lost and cannot figure out what the deal is with what appears to be three different Vernor's buildings that also have three different signs. The weird part is, all three pictures are described as being at 33 Woodward Avenue, but only the first one pictured actually shows the address. As for the dates, they came from the Detroit Historical Society ...

Circa 1900 - Notice the wagon on the right - but also notice what appears to be a truck on the left - or is that just another wagon with stake-bed rails and wood spoke wheels?   



Circa 1920-1925 - Notice the trucks



Date Unknown - Location Questionable


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of the 33 Woodward Avenue address and the wagon ... 

Described as circa 1909



Note: I'm only drawing attention to the wagon itself and not the building its in front of.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Perhaps the historical pictures on this website will help make sense of things. By the way, any references to *239* Woodward Avenue are for the well known 10-story Vernor's building that was completed in 1941 ...

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2016/06/detroit_historical_society_to.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB




----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One more "weird thing" while I'm at it ...

It appears the 10-story Vernor's building located at 239 Woodward Avenue, that was completed in 1941, was also demolished when they reconstructed the water front. If the demolition/reconstruction took place between 1944 and 1949, it strikes me odd that they would tear down a building that was relatively new. I wonder what the story is on that?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or did the 239 Woodward Avenue building survive the reconstruction/demolition?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Ah, ha ... More advanced reading!

Check out what I found in Keith Wunderlich's book about the 239 Woodward Avenue address. Plus a ton of other stuff and lots of pictures. 

Start by scrolling to Page 26 ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=X... building 239 woodward avenue detroit&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't figured out the date and location for the 3-story tiled roof building I posted a picture of, but I did discover the following ...

Just prior to the onset of World War II, Vernors built a 230,000 square foot bottling plant and headquarters, encompassing an entire city block on Woodward Avenue, one block from the Detroit River. In the late 1950s, when the City of Detroit proposed construction of Cobo Hall and other riverfront projects, a *land-swap* was negotiated, and Vernors moved its bottling plant and headquarters to the location of the old civic exhibition hall at 4501 Woodward Avenue, incorporating many of the popular features of the old plant. 

*March 2, 1941*

Notice where it says ...

"This will be the *fourth* building to be occupied by the Vernor Co. at this location."



*June 17, 1941* ~ New Location 75th Anniversary









*September 17, 1954*  ~  New Location Open House  ~  4501 Woodward Avenue


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on my notes, this new timeline should be pretty accurate ...

 1866 to 1896 = 30 Years @ 235 Woodward Avenue

(Southwest Corner of Woodward & Clifford)

 

1896 to 1941 = 45 Years @ 33 & 239 Woodward Avenue

(Building went through various changes and the address changed from 33 Woodward Avenue to 239 Woodward Avenue in the 1920s)



1941 to 1954 = 13 Years @ 201-251 Woodward Avenue

(Same Location as above but building became a high-rise and address changed from 239 Woodward Avenue to 201-251 Woodward Avenue)

 


1954 to 1966 = 12 Years @ 4501 Woodward Avenue*

(Relocated from 201-251 Woodward Avenue to 4501 Woodward Avenue)

*This particular plant occupied over seven acres. On a daily basis it would produce 75,000 cases of Vernor's Ginger Ale. Which would be about 6,000,000 drinks per day.The plant was set up for public tours so one could watch the entire process taking place on any day. The Vernor Family sold out in 1966.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> View attachment 172947
> 
> View attachment 172948




But I'm still not sure what the story is regarding this three-story tile roof building!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder/Clue from the March 2, 1941 newspaper article ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Questions of the day ...

1. Is the three-story tile roof building how it looked before it became a four-story building?

or ...

2.  Is the three-story tile roof building how it looked after it was a four-story building and the fourth floor was removed?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Partial Answer ...

Whatever occurred to the Vernor building also occurred to the buildings on either side. 

In this picture all three buildings are three-floors high ... Date unknown




In this picture all three buildings are four-floors high ... Date described as circa 1900


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I figured out one thing ...

The *4* and other numbers on the street-side of this *1897* map indicate the number of floors each building had at the time ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm starting to think the mystery building with the tile roof might not have been in Detroit, but possibly in some other town and state. The reason I say this is because ...

This picture is described as circa 1920-1925 - Which the line of trucks seem to support. 



And even though this next picture was not dated, which is from the same angle as the last picture, the cars appear to be late 1930s or early 1940s. Notice the glass and the word Ginger Ale is missing from the sign, which might indicate the sign was either being taken down or possibly repaired. ???



In other words ...

The building seems to have gone unchanged between the 1920s and 1940s. And because the new ten story building was completed in 1941, I don't see a time period when the tile roof building could have fit into the mix. I seriously doubt the tile roof picture is from the late 1800s or early teens, although I suppose it could be. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

I researched the "Merit Shoe Co." and could not find where they were ever located on Woodward Avenue in Detroit!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The only other thing I can think of to explain the tile roof building are bits and pieces of unconfirmed information that mention a Vernor's soda fountain that was located "across the street" from the new ten-story building that was completed in 1941. Maybe, just maybe the tile roof building was that soda fountain. ???


----------



## hemihampton

I took these Pics Yesterday of Clifford & Woodward. Looks like some older Building exist but most replaced with newer buildings. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Here's 2 pics of Woodward looking south, Similar location of my old Black & White pic I posted the other day & one looking north from the very end of Woodward. Where Hart Plaza park is now is where Vernors was 100+ years ago.


----------



## hemihampton

The end of Woodward at Jefferson nowadays. Hart Plaza at right & Reneaisance Center Building at left. I heard when the were building the Reneaisance building in 1975 they found/unearthed tons of old 1850-1890's bottles. my Cobalt blue ten pin Teller's Mineral Water came from that find. Hart Plaza is where Vernors & many old streets & buildings once stood. now long gone. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Lot's of cool info you guys. Thanx. I don't frequent Detroit as much as I used too. Occasionally I go to 'Indian Village' for work.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy 

Thanks - but you ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait until you see what I found this morning.

I'll be back later after I organize some attachments and dates.

Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, here goes, I hope I get everything in the proper sequence ...

*James Vernor Drug Store - 235 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan - Described as dating circa 1870*




*Vernor's Pharmacy - 235 Woodward Avenue Detroit, Michigan*

Although this next picture was not dated, it appears to be during the time when James Vernor was selling out and preparing to move to 33 Woodward Avenue, which was about 15 blocks away near the riverfront. 

Notice the banner says ...

Clearance Sale 
Being About To Retire From The Retail
Business I Offer My Stock At Less Than Cost
To Close It Out Quickly - James S Vernor 

Notice the "Vernor's Ginger Ale" sign on the side of the building. 

Also notice ...

1. The Goldberg Brothers Department Store
2. The Number 229 on the Goldberg Store

Note: Of all the pictures I've posted, this is my personal favorite. Its extremely rare and almost ghostly in appearance.

Unless proven otherwise, I am giving it a circa date of ...

1896 



(To be continued shortly with more detailed timeline information)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now let's backup a few years to see when the Goldberg Brothers Store first opened / and closed ...

*Detroit Free Press - April 2, 1892*

Note: Please save & zoom to read the entire article that contains lots of information and mentions multiple floors and multiple departments. The store officially opened on April 1, 1892 





And officially closed on ...

*Detroit Free Press - May 5, 1912*

... when they relocated to Gratiot & Library Avenues




(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now lets return to 1896 ...

Note: Even though there are numerous ads like the examples that follow, for simplicity sake I'm just posting the earliest and the latest I could find. Even though these two ads are brief, they clearly indicate that it took some time for James Vernor to close out the old store in preparation for moving to his new location at 33 Woodward Avenue. 

Earliest ...

*Detroit Free Press - April 5, 1896*



Latest ...

*Detroit Free Press - September 23, 1896*



(Next up will be the company that moved into the 235 Woodward Avenue building after James Vernor moved out)


----------



## iggyworf

That is an excellent pic you found Bob! Of the 1896 building.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The company that moved into 235 Woodward Avenue after James Vernor moved out in 1896 was ...

*Eckert & Angell* - Confectionary & Candy

But first, let me establish that Eckert had a different partner and a different location prior 1896. Which was ...

Eckert & Hadeler's Sugar Bowl - 180 Woodward Avenue

*Detroit Free Press - October 31, 1894* - 
(This is the earliest I can find regarding Eckert being involved with any type of business) 



*Detroit Free Press - December 17, 1894*

Note: The "Sugar Bowl" was the name of their store.





(To be continued with Eckert & Angell - 235 Woodward Avenue)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Enter ...

Eckert & *Angell*

(I don't know what became of Ekert's former parner, Mr. Hadeler - he just disappears)

*Detroit Free Press - November 15, 1896* 

(Which was about two months after Vernor moved out - and the earliest I can find for when Eckert & Angell moved in)




*Detroit Free Press - November 23, 1896*

Notice "Sugar Bowl Confectionery"









(More to follow)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

An then, sometime between about 1905 and 1907, Mr. Eckert disappears and Mr. Angell goes it alone ... 

Notice its "Angell's Candy Store" now and no longer the "Sugar Bowl"

*Detroit Free Press - May 15, 1907*



Note: Because the 235 Woodward Avenue building had four floors, its almost impossible to keep track of all the different businesses that came and went over the years. There were many, many of them! 


I don't know the date for this 5-cent store token, but I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for one. As far as I know they are one of the few collectible items that has the 235 Woodward Avenue address on it. I believe they are extremely rare. 

Front ...



Back ...



(Almost done)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I still have a little more searching to do, but as it stands now this is the latest reference I can find for 235 Woodward Avenue. I might have to do some deep digging to find a later date, but its possible the building was torn down at this time and/or had one of those address changes we read about earlier. I will be sure and post a later reference if/when I find one.

*Detroit Free Press - February 20, 1920*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In the meantime ...

Happy 4th of July  :flag:

Sodapopbob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

*235 Woodward Avenue ~ Southwest corner of Woodward and Clifford* 

Early ...



Later ...



Current ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. 

I can't say for certain, but it appears to me the original 1892 Goldberg Brothers Department Store building is still standing.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. ~ P.S.

I checked and the address for the "Kit Ace Clothing Store" that Leon and I posted pictures of and that's currently located on the southwest corner of Woodward and Clifford is ... 

1459 Woodward Avenue

(But I have no clue when the address changed from 235 to 1459)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the earliest date I can find for ...

1459 Woodward Avenue

Detroit Free Press - July 20, *1924*

Note: I don't know if this was in the original Vernor building or a newer building - but now that I have the right address, I'm going to try and find out. I'm curious when the original Vernor building was torn down.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I will post some more information and attachments later, but for now it appears that Vernor's original building was torn down ...

... *sometime after 1936*

Later Alligators - I'm just leaving to go to my daughter's for some 4th of July fun!


----------



## hemihampton

Nice Detective work. I thought I noticed what looked like that Goldberg Building still standing also. If you double click my one pic you can read the 1459 address an kit Ace store. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

Thanks

This next picture is of poor quality but will confirm that Vernor's old building at 235 Woodward Avenue was still standing as of ...

*Detroit Free Press - March 16, 1913*

Compare it to the circa 1896 picture and you will see its from the same angle and shows the same power lines as well as the same chimneys on the Vernor and Goldberg building. Its a clearance ad for Goodyear raincoats but I don't know if they leased the entire building or just the ground floor. Also notice the tall building behind the Vernor building, that wasn't there in 1896.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Ads like the following have me a little confused and is where I'm coming up with the possibility that the old Vernor building was still standing as late as 1938. 

The ads involve "Karsten's Kafeteria" (Sometimes spelled 'Cafeteria') that I have seen lots of ads for, and which was a popular place to eat in Detroit in the 1920s and 1930s.

Detroit Free Press - February 20, *1920*

Notice:

1. 235 Woodward Avenue
2. 2nd Floor



Detroit Free Press - July 11, *1935*

Notice:

1. 1459 Woodward Avenue
2. Second Floor



Detroit Free Press - May 1, *1938*

Notice:

1. 1459 Woodward Avenue
2. 24 year old (Business)
3. Same Location
4. 2nd Floor




Footnote:  I don't consider this as confirmation that the Vernor building was still standing in 1938, but its pretty close and I will continue to look for more substantial proof.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

1938 - 24 years = 1914


----------



## hemihampton

Looks like they changed the address sometime between 1920 & 1935. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The earliest date I have found so far for 1459 Woodward Avenue is ...

1922

I have seen brief references that suggest it was 1920 when the address changes occurred, but I have not found any confirmation for that date.

This article is about the violin dealer named Adolph Krug that I posted an ad for earlier ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Woodward Avenue, if this next part doesn't blow your mind, nothing will! When I realized what I had stumbled onto I was skeptical at first. But after triple-checking everything it started to come together. As a result, I came up with this ...

*Detroit Free Press  ~  June 26, 1914*

Notice:

1. Eight-story building
2. Southwest corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street




Which led to this ...

*Detroit Free Press  ~  November 15, 1914 *

Notice:  235 Woodward Ave; Cor. Clifford St. 



Which led to this ...

http://digitalcollections.detroitpubliclibrary.org/islandora/object/islandora:145932



Remember the article I posted about Kartsen's Caferterian being on the second floor? Well, check these out - which are cropped from the picture above ...





Which led me back to this ...



In other words ...

The building that's there now is the same building that was built for Kresge's Department Store in 1914. Which leads me to believe that James Vernor's original building was torn down to make way for the new, eight-story building.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way, did you know that the 'K' in Kmart stands for ...

Kresge 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._S._Kresge


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Because the 1913 newspaper article I posted shows the Vernor building, and because of Kresge's grand opening in 1914, and because it would take at least a year to construct an eight-story building, I suspect the 1913 picture might have been the last one ever taken of the Vernor building.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least ...

I purchased this postcard on eBay today ...

(Look close at the sign on the right)



Date stamped 1907 ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm posting this next entry because its the 4th of July and because I wanted to exit with a ...

:fireworks:Bang:fireworks:


Hey, iggy

Thanks for allowing me to bombard your thread! It was fun.

Bob  :flag:


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> By the way, did you know that the 'K' in Kmart stands for ...
> 
> Kresge
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._S._Kresge




Yes. SS Kresge was one of the first all purpose cheap department stores here in Detroit. I remember going to one at 'Eastland Mall'

Thank You Bob and Leon  for expanding on this thread. I never thought it would get this involved. but I am glad it did. I found out alot of things about Vernors I didn't know.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Is 'Eastland Mall' one of these Kresge locations?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's another (somewhat) Vernor's related collectible to look for ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Check out this current eBay listing about photo reprints of James Vernor's original drug store. It has a really cool zoom feature that allows you to examine it in detail. Just click on the second image and it will open the zoom magnifier. Notice the words ginger ale or anything else soda pop related is not on the building. "Picks" are cigars. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-1870s...700165?hash=item2c6dae4b85:g:tP8AAOSwhcJWMX12


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> iggy
> 
> Is 'Eastland Mall' one of these Kresge locations?
> 
> View attachment 173043


 
No it is not. The one I was thinking of is  actually located in the far northeast area of Detroit. Where I grew up. Not the 'downtown' area. Technically it has a 'Harper Woods' address, but everyone considered it 
Detroit. Located at Kelly & 8 mile rd. It is not a nice place now. Too bad.


----------



## hemihampton

When did Vernor's move to 33 Woodward. Bob, Here's another Pic of Vernor's Building from your 1907 Postcard. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

In 1917 he expanded to the building next to Vernors. In this pic notice in lower left corner say's New Home Of VERNOR'S.  LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

Those are great pictures. They help reinforce my belief that the tile-roof building may not have been in Detroit. As for when Vernor moved from 235 Woodward to 33 Woodward, the earliest *published* date I am aware of is ...

*June 1, 1896*

... as found in this pharmaceutical publication. It also mentions Vernor leaving the drug trade to pursue his ginger ale business. 

https://books.google.com/books?id=v...page&q=Vernor 33 Woodward avenue 1896&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In case anyone needs reminding, here's the tile-roof building again that I'm trying to figure out the location of. If its at 33 Woodward, then it and the buildings on either side appear to have had the fourth floor removed, and portions of it, such as the windows, completely remolded. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Compare Leon's picture of the 33 Woodard building with mine and notice the utility pole on the sidewalk. They look to be in the same spot. Weird! But I cannot explain the difference in the buildings themselves.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

But then again, the signs are different. Weird! Here are both pictures together for comparison ...


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, If you want I can e-mail you a much bigger pic where you can actually read the address's on each Building & Vernors seemed to take up more then one building or address? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

SODAPOPBOB said:


> In case anyone needs reminding, here's the tile-roof building again that I'm trying to figure out the location of. If its at 33 Woodward, then it and the buildings on either side appear to have had the fourth floor removed, and portions of it, such as the windows, completely remolded. ???
> 
> View attachment 173052





Yeah, I'm not sure where that is? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

What do you think about these pictures? It looks to me like the trucks might be parked on the long side of the building where I placed the red arrow in your picture ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For future reference ...

Circa 1896


----------



## hemihampton

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Leon
> 
> What do you think about these pictures? It looks to me like the trucks might be parked on the long side of the building where I placed the red arrow in your picture ...
> 
> View attachment 173055
> 
> View attachment 173056





Yes, That's the same place. Another give away is the Mariners Church which was on other corner & can be seen in your pic. Here's a Pic of the Mariner Church bei
ng moved in 1955. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

The Pic you posted with Trucks was looking north up woodward & that street corner is Woodbridge.. Vernors on south west corner. Right across the street from Vernor's was a HUGE Giant Advertisement for Coca Cola. Seems odd? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Wow! Talk about demolition!

The various pictures help locate this one because it also shows the Mariner Church ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought I was done with my Vernor's research but just this morning discovered something that could be a game changer. It involves the questions ...

1. Are we 100% proof-positive certain when Vernor's started bottling *carbonated* ginger ale?

2. Are we 100% proof-positive certain that the bottle on the sign in this Vernor's postcard is a carbonated bottle?

3. Is it possible that the bottle pictured in this postcard is an *extract* bottle and not a carbonated bottle?

Note: Just because the postcard is date stamped 1912 doesn't necessarily date the picture itself. I have seen references for this same postcard that claim it is circa 1900. However, this is the first example of the back that I've seen. The wording doesn't mention anything about a carbonated beverage, but does focus on the extract. In fact, the wording sounds like it was intended as an advertising tool for potential franchise dealers and not as your typical tourist-type postcard. Especially notice the horse drawn wagon parked out front. Check it out and see what you think ...


----------



## hemihampton

BOB, That colored postcard with horsedrawn wagons is the same as this building cirled in black in my pic below. Notice how he kept expanding to the buildings next to him. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Here's a close up, Notice the Address #29 to the left, the next Building would be address #31. Then the next Building is Vernors #33. BUT, Notice he also expanded to the next building next to him that would be #35, Then he expanded the the next Building which was taller & bigger on the corner which should be #37? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

2 more Vernor's Post Cards. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

Thanks for the pics.

I'm totally up to speed on the building locations. What I'm trying to draw attention to now is ...

1. The Vernor's sign itself
2. When Vernor's started bottling carbonated ginger ale? 

The bottle on the sign sort of looks like an extract bottle to me and not a carbonated bottle. Especially notice what appears to be a soda fountain *handle* on the sign. Its like they're saying ... 

Combine the extract with soda water into a glass for a refreshing drink of Vernor's Ginger Ale


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> For future reference ...
> 
> Circa 1896
> 
> View attachment 173057
> 
> View attachment 173058




Here is a link to an ebay auction showing this bldg. The person states it's from the 1870's. Interesting. The cursor over the pic gives a good close up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-1870s-Detroit-Michigan-James-Vernors-Drug-Store-/190818700165


----------



## hemihampton

iggyworf said:


> Here is a link to an ebay auction showing this bldg. The person states it's from the 1870's. Interesting. The cursor over the pic gives a good close up.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Photo-1870s-Detroit-Michigan-James-Vernors-Drug-Store-/190818700165




Yes, As far as I know that Pic on Clifford was 1876. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I agree - 1870s / 1876

There are thousands of ads and articles for Vernor's in the newspaper archives, many of which I have already posted. There are lots of ads for Vernor's extract, which are easy to find. Finding ads for carbonated bottles are also easy to find. The thing about the early carbonated bottle ads is, the information is a little vague at first, but then becomes more evident as the years roll by. In other words, distinguishing an early extract ad from an early carbonated ad can be a little challenging but not impossible. So, all things considered, the earliest ad I have been able to find for a Vernor's carbonated bottle is ...

*July 5, 1902*

Note: Based on ads similar to this one, but later, it appears the 15-cent price is referring to a quart size bottle, which would also account for the 3-cent deposit.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And as near as I can determine, this is the earliest carbonated Vernor's Ginger Ale *paper label* ... 

(Exact date unknown, but possible 1902)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

I bought a 6-pack of Vernor's Ginger Ale today and am going to taste-test it tomorrow after it chills and "ages" overnight. I'm not particularly fond of ginger ale, and can't remember the last time I had a Vernor's, but it will be interesting to see if it taste as good as all the hoopla claims. I'll let you know what I think of it tomorrow.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Strange but true!

Starting from 1902, I slowly picked my way through hundreds of Vernor's ads looking for one that showed a bottle, but all of them were nothing more than the little snippet ads like the one I posted from 1902, which clearly advertised Vernor's as being available in bottles, but yet they did not include a picture of a bottle. Strange but true, the earliest ad I can find that includes a picture of a bottle is this one from ...

*The Detroit Free Press  ~  May 28, 1921*

Note: Even though the ad itself has May 26th on it, it wasn't published until May 28th. But its a true beaut and was well worth searching for. Save it to your files because this might be the first time it has ever appeared on the Internet!

Notice it says "new label"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Leon

This one is especially for you!

I found it by accident while searching for a picture of a bottle. Its from ...

*Detroit Free Press  ~  December 24, 1911*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

According to Vernor's collector, Keith Wunderlich ...

"A delivery boy, not the gnome, was the first company graphic. He probably appeared in advertising in about 1910. His appearance on bottles is guessed to be about 1915."


----------



## hemihampton

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Hey, Leon
> 
> This one is especially for you!
> 
> I found it by accident while searching for a picture of a bottle. Its from ...
> 
> *Detroit Free Press  ~  December 24, 1911*
> 
> View attachment 173080
> 
> View attachment 173081






Yeah, Interesting, It's the same corner I pictured earlier. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I'm going to speculate here. My Opinion the first Vernor's bottles did not have a paper label at all. I'm guessing my Vernor's with 1906 Pure Food statement on back predates all the paper label bottles. Pic below. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Leon, excellent bottle in the 1st pic. I have the one in your 2nd pic. Or is that the same bottle? If it is mine does not have that on the back. I also have 2 others, embossed from Canada that probably didn't have a paper label on them. I am thinking from the 1920's?


----------



## hemihampton

Yes, It's the same bottle. They seem to be much harder to find with that Statement on the back. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize I'm going out on a very thin limb with the following, but having done an exhaustive search involving every form of publication I can think of, I am fully prepared to take a stand and state it is my opinion that Vernor's Ginger Ale was not born, developed, created, served, etc; *until 1880 at the very earliest*. Please note that my claim does not imply that James Vernor did not establish a drug store as early as 1866, because there is ample evidence to support that he did. My claim only involves James Vernor's ginger ale and not his drug store. In other words, I'm saying that any and all claims that state Vernor's Ginger Ale was born, developed, created, and served in 1866 are *pure myth*. With that said, I am challenging anyone and everyone to provide a dated publication to support the 1866 creation date. And by "dated publication" I do not mean articles and histories that were published after 1866. I mean publications that were actually written and published in 1866. In fact, I would even settle for a publication dated anytime between 1866 and 1880 that refers to "Vernor's Ginger Ale" in any manner, shape, or form. But if one exist, I have yet to find it!

So without further ado, here's the earliest dated publication I have been able to find that refers to "Vernor's Ginger Ale." 

*The Detroit Free Press  ~  Detroit, Michigan  ~  June 28, 1884*

Note: This first image is the entire page where I circled in red the cropped article that follows. That way you can save and examine the entire page for yourselves.

Full Page




Top of Page



Cropped Article from Page



Please note that my intent here is not to prove that I'm right and that others are wrong, as nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm merely attempting to find an earlier published article and inviting others to join the search to see if one exist. If an earlier published account does exist, I will stand humbly corrected.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Most of us agree this picture of James Vernor's drug store was taken in the 1870s, with some accounts stating it was taken in 1876. If this is correct, then why are the words "Ginger Ale" not found anywhere on the building? Even if it was taken as early as 1870, that's still a full four years after 1866. Not to mention if it was taken in 1876 that that's a full ten years after 1866


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...


Happy 150th Birthday to Vernor's Drug Store


Happy 132nd Birthday to Vernor's Ginger Ale


----------



## iggyworf

Thanx Bob for all your work on 'Vernors'. I like your conclusions. But will always try too look for further info.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For Future Reference ...

I haven't been able to find the original document yet but this will do for the time being. The original document will have "first use 1880" on it ...

*1911*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

This one is just for you! 

Paper Label Front



Paper Label Back ... 

Ink stamped with *MAIL ROOM U.S. PATENT OFFICE MAR 29 1911*

Note: The ink stamp is extremely faint and this is the best I could do to highlight it. I will make some additional attempts later to try and make it more visible.


----------



## hemihampton

I drove by the Detroit Public Library & Detroit Hitstorical Society today, they are both next to each other on Woodward across the street from the DIA (Detroit Institute of Arts). If I had a free day or 2 to go to them to Investigate I assume I could find some more Vernors History doing Research. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I still haven't been able to find the original 1911 Trademark document but I'm getting closer. This one is for when A&W filed for a renewal of the Trademark in 2011, which does have the 1880 first use date on it ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> In other words ...
> 
> 
> Happy 150th Birthday to Vernor's Drug Store
> 
> 
> Happy 136th Birthday to Vernor's Ginger Ale



Because of recent *documented evidence* that supports the "1880 First Use" date, I have edited (in red) my birthday greeting to accommodate the 1880 date. But that's all I'm willing to rescind at this present time!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Found It!

Here's the original Trademark application that James Vernor filed in 1911. It shows the first use date of 1880 and is signed by James Vernor himself ...

Notice it mentions "labels" "bottle caps" and "bottles."









And here's how the officially registered 1911 Trademark first appeared in U.S. Trademark publications ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...


"Since about January 1st, 1880"


... signed by and in James Vernor's own words!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

If anyone can provide us with *officially documented* evidence for "Vernor's Ginger Ale" earlier than 1880 I will send them a free copy of Rick Sweeney's ACL book. And if the individual who finds such a document has already purchased one of Rick's books from me, then I will send their $60 back!

Note: I reserve the right to determine if such evidence is valid or not, which might include the assistance of other members in determining the date of said evidence. 

Signed ...

Sodapopbob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And I'm not the only person who questions the 1866 date. There are others like me who feel the date was 1880. Such as the following ... 


http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/...y-and-great-flavor-of-vernors-ginger-ale.html

So, 1865—oldest soft drink, case closed, right?

At least, this is what the company—ironically since acquired by Dr. Pepper—would have you believe. There's quite a bit of uncertainty about this, however. According to a great article that Roger Grace wrote for Metropolitan News, up until 1885, James Vernor was actually listed in the Detroit city directory as a "Druggist and Florist," not a soda entrepreneur. Indeed, a trademark for "Vernor's" was not even applied for until 1911, at which time James Vernor claimed that the ginger ale entered commerce in 1880—not 1865.


http://www.metnews.com/articles/2005/reminiscing101305.htm

He did not become an instant soda pop entrepeneur. The 1885 city directory for Detroit listed him as “Druggist and Florist.” His ginger ale entered commerce in 1880, according to a 1911 application for a federal trademark on “Vernor’s” as a name for ginger ale and ginger ale extract. (The application was granted a few months after it was filed.)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Some guy named iggyworf thinks it was 1880, too ...    




iggyworf said:


> Vernors Ginger Ale. Considered the 1st 'soda' pop. Is celebrating it's 150th anniversary this wk in Detroit Michigan.  Started by James Vernon in a Detroit pharmacy before the civil war. And being sold by 1880(not 1866). It's a Detroit staple. I am not sure how far it's distributed, but Michigan and the surrounding states know all about it. Including Canada.
> 
> In honor of that I wanted to show all my Vernors bottles. And some links for more info  on Vernors. Thanx and I hope you enjoy.
> 
> 1st pic - three are embossed. The first 2 of those are from Canada.
> 2nd - PL from Canada also. Probably late 70's.
> 3rd -  ACL a.1973 with Gnome on the neck harder to find. b. 1967 1pt 12oz, harder to find c. 1976 32 oz
> 4th pic - Foil labels all 28oz early 70's
> 5th pic - PL two 1liters 1979(20cent deposit) 2 28oz mid 70's
> 6th pic - PL 16.9oz 1979, ACL 16oz & two 16.9oz 1978-1985-1988
> 7th pic - 3 ACL 10.6oz 80's, 8oz 69, 12oz limited edition 2000, 10oz foam label stubby, 10oz embossed, probably had a PL.
> 8th pic - 12oz can pull tab & stubby again
> 
> View attachment 172498View attachment 172499View attachment 172500View attachment 172501View attachment 172502View attachment 172503View attachment 172504View attachment 172505
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernors
> http://detroithistorical.org/learn/encyclopedia-of-detroit/vernors-ginger-ale


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I'm also calling into question the claims that state Vernor's Ginger Ale was America's first soda pop and was first served in Detroit, Michigan ...

From ...

*The Detroit Free Press  ~  Detroit, Michigan  ~  May 21, 1871*

Note: This is the earliest use of the words "Ginger Ale" I can find in any Detroit, Michigan newspaper. I realize it says "Imported" but that's not what's in question here. I'm questioning the first ginger ale ever "sold" in Detroit, Michigan.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of American made ginger ales, according to various accounts ...


History Notes

The first company in America to bottle Ginger Ale was DOWS of Boston, Massachusetts, in 1861.

In 1866, Cantrell & Cochrane, known as C & C, began exporting Ginger Ale from Ireland to America. 

In 1871, Lemon's Superior Sparkling Ginger Ale received the first Canadian soft drink trade-mark registration. 

In 1880, James Vernor started making Ginger Ale. He aged the concentrated syrup for his ginger ale in oak casks. 

Clicquot Club Ginger Ale was started by Henry Millis sometime in the 1880s in Millis, Massachusetts. He named it after the famous French champagne.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize I might be :deadhorse: but just trying to set a few records straight regarding American made ginger ales in relation to Vernor's Ginger Ale ...

Advanced Timeline ...

http://www.mohawkvalleybottleclub.com/archivearticles/pdf_articles/sodaindustrymilestones.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least ...

I conducted my ginger ale taste test today. I tried Vernor's along with Canada Dry and ... 

1. Vernor's actually has a mellow, true ginger flavor.

2. Canada Dry taste more like Sprite than it does ginger ale.  

But then again, I'm not a ginger ale expert. So what do I know?


----------



## hemihampton

I just ordered a Vernors Ginger all today at a Detroit McDonalds along with my Burger. All soft drinks only $1.00 so I got a large Vernor's. Unfortunately only a select few Detroit McDonalds serve it, None in the Detroit Suburbs that I know of ? I think all Detroit area fast food places should support local soft drink makers like Vernor's & Faygo & Town Club, ect. Besides some Detroit Billboards that's about all the support I see which is a shame. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I found this 1876 pic. Read the Vernor's sign carefully. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

hemihampton said:


> I found this 1876 pic. Read the Vernor's sign carefully. LEON.View attachment 173124



Sorry Charlie! No Cigar! Nice job with the photo-trickery but that dog won't hunt!


----------



## andy volkerts

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Sorry Charlie! No Cigar! Nice job with the photo-trickery but that dog won't hunt!



Shucks Bob I thought it was real, he did do a pretty fair job of it though, what gives it away.....Andy


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the original photo and Leon's fake photo for comparison ... plus one of my own


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of cigars ...

Notice the sign on the sidewalk for "*Picks*" cigars. There are tons of ads about Vernor's selling Picks ...



Smoke Picks



Detroit Free Press  ~  May 7, 1876

Notice the capital letters on the left spell 'VERNOR SELLS PICKS'


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Leon

On second thought, here's your cigar for trying. And, yes, this dog hunts ... for cigars!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The best for last ...

This dog definitely hunts!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the 1911 labels the 1911 Trademark document referred to ...

Main Label



Neck Label


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question of the day ...

Is that a feather I see on the main label? 



I don't see it on this one!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

After closely examining the label, it appears what looks like a feather is actually a potion of the paper that has peeled away on the crease line and is partially loose. I'm not sure which side has peeled away, but if it was folded back and glued it would be repaired. (I think) ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of paper labels ...

This link shows the Delivery Boy Trademark that was ...

Used Since: April 14, 1921
Filed For: April 25, 1921
Registered: July 25, 1922

U.S. Trademark Number: 157,293

(Which I'm trying to find the official document for)

"The Beverage Journal" August, 1922

https://books.google.com/books?id=g...ge&q=vernor ginger ale 1911 trademark&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> If anyone can provide us with *officially documented* evidence for "Vernor's Ginger Ale" earlier than 1880 I will send them a free copy of Rick Sweeney's ACL book. And if the individual who finds such a document has already purchased one of Rick's books from me, then I will send their $60 back!
> 
> Note: I reserve the right to determine if such evidence is valid or not, which might include the assistance of other members in determining the date of said evidence.
> 
> Signed ...
> 
> Sodapopbob




I'm eager to give away one of Rick Sweeney's books - so I'm expounding on my offer to include any official document or ad *from 1880* or earlier that refers to Vernor's Ginger Ale. Because the 1911 Trademark document says ...

 "Since about January 1st, 1880"

... its highly possible there is some type of document or advertisement from 1880. Remember, the earliest ad I have been able to find so far is from 1884


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

Close but no cigar, yet!




Similar construction with tile roof - but the rest of it doesn't match - unless one is earlier and one is later and the building was dramatically changed?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's what the Flint, Michigan building looks like today - Link has super-zoom ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/army_arch/8743376297


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to 1880 ...

It would be interesting to know the date and what catalog this Vernor's glass was advertised in. The description where I found the picture did not even hint at a date nor mention the catalog source. But I'm betting its pretty dang early because it has Vernor's in block letters and not the cursive script that came later.


----------



## iggyworf

Here is a pic of a horse drawn delivery wagon with the 33 Woodward address.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Notice the side of the wagon has ...

1. Vernor's in script
2. A bottle with the *1911* patented paper label

Hence, I'm circa dating the photo to 1911 or later! 

I'm not 100% certain yet, but I believe they switched to the cursive script around 1900. As for the paper label, they switched to the "Delivery Boy" paper label around 1921-22


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Sorry, folks ... but the devil made me do it!*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Actually, it was Woody the Gnome who made me do it!  He said he was tired of getting blamed for the wrong dates!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

Notice Woody is winking. If that doesn't tell us something is amiss, nothing will! Its his mischievous way of saying they are just kidding about the anniversary date!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB




----------



## hemihampton

Here's a nice sign. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Yeah, I've always liked that picture.

Speaking of pictures ...

Eye winking seems to run in the family. I wonder if they're trying to tell us something?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Rich / Leon / Vernor's Collectors

Ever since I found this link I have been keeping it to myself. I apologize for that but want to share it now. It contains an incredible amount of Vernor's information and is where I found the various trademark documents and paper labels. It contains 119 pages and I have been reading through it for a couple of days but still haven't digested all of it yet. As far as I know it is the most extensive file of its kind. Its printer friendly and I'm sure you will enjoy it. 

https://tsdrsec.uspto.gov/ts/cd/casedocs/bundle-download.pdf?rn=83107


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hmmm ...

It seems like photo-trickery also runs in the family ...


----------



## M.C.Glass

I don't believe the "tile roof" building picture is 33 Woodward. I think  it could be Pontiac or Flint, MI. I have a better 1916 image of the 33  Woodward building showing and talking about the block, with its cigar  stores, etc. You can see the addresses, 27, 29 and two doors down, Vernor's.
Detroit did a major address changeover city wide in 1920. If you want to  see various postcard and other pics of the 33 Woodward area, a search  of Bob-Lo Island and docks and related show the area over the years.
I  think they tore down the area to build Cobo Hall and the [acoustically  perfect] Fischer Theatre where the DSO played, when we had one.


----------



## M.C.Glass

Yes, it is Pontiac, according to Vernor's GA by Keith Wunderlich & Images of America.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

MC

Great pictures - especially the one of the Pontiac location. One of these days I'd like to find a good close up profile of the sign on the Woodward Avenue building. I'm still thinking its an extract bottle with a soda fountain handle. Does Keith Wunderlich's book say anything about it?


----------



## M.C.Glass

He doesn't say anything particular about the sign on the 235 Woodward building. His picture in the book crops the sign out. It does mention that in 1896, he retired after 30 years of pharmacy work, during which he held Michigan State Pharmacy license #1. His son, James II joined him and focused their efforts on the Ginger Ale business. At that time it was just the 2 Vernors and their horse, Dick.
It says at one point that Vernor grew his business out of extract sales to hundreds of fountains across Detroit and beyond and his sales literature spoke to how little extract was needed for big profits. The pic covers the timeline of the growth of the bottling plant.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

MC

Thanks for the info - very helpful. 

Does the book happen to say by who and when they started saying Vernor's Ginger Ale has been served ...

 "*Since 1866*"

I'm currently trying to find the earliest reference for "Since 1866" but haven't narrowed it down yet.


----------



## M.C.Glass

I'll check tonight. It occurs to me that a barrel of extract could have been the funding for the pharmacy. He surely served it in 1866 even if it took til 1870 to get it really rolling. 
here's a pic of the Pontiac store now.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Here's some Pics
 of that Sign being Installed but I don't see a bottle or handle in pics unfortunately. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Vernor's in Color. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*All Things Considered ...*

We may never know why James Vernor waited until 1911 to file for a trademark that bore his name in connection with his ginger ale. But we do know that James was born in 1843 and was 68 years old in 1911. His son, James Jr., was born in 1877 and was 34 years old in 1911. Which tells us that both of them were mature adults in 1911 who no doubt had full control of their mental facilities at the time. So with this said, I have to believe when James filed for his ginger ale trademark in 1911 that he was well aware of what he was doing and to some extant knew what was required to file for a trademark, which included filling in the part where he wrote ...

The trademark has been used in my business since "*about January 1st 1880*"  

The point I'm trying to make is, he could just as easily have written, since "about January 1st 1867" - but he didn't! And I believe the reason he didn't write 1866 or 1867 is because he was being honest and wrote in the correct year for when he actually started his ginger ale operation. If it had been in 1866 or 1867, then why didn't he say as much when he had the opportunity? After all, that was in 1911, so why would James Vernor be thinking about history books when the full extent of his fame hadn't even been realized yet? In my opinion, which is based entirely on the documented trademark itself, is that James Vernor filed for his trademark 'by-the-book' and wanted it to be totally legal without any false statements that might haunt him later. In other words, he wrote "about January 1st 1880" because that was the 'truth' and was the actual date when he began his ginger ale operation. 

[ Attachments ]

Original Trademark Application  ~  1911




I cropped-out this portion that includes the part about 1880 and then 'pasted' James Veror's signature on it for comparison. I'm no handwriting expert, but it appears to me that the 'J' in 'January' and the 'J' in James were written by the same hand. In other words, it appears to me that James Vernor himself wrote "about January 1st 1880" and that he was well aware of what he was writing. Which is why I am of the opinion that "Vernor's Ginger Ale" was born in 1880 and not in 1866!  



This last attachment is of the trademark itself which was published after the application had been filed, processed, and officially registered. It has the same exact wording about the 1880 date as the application does!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...


Vernor's Ginger Ale

.....Since 1880.....


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

We may never know exactly who or exactly when they stared saying "Since 1866" but the information on this link is the earliest I have been able to find that even comes close ...

"American Druggist"

1922

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...Ac#v=onepage&q=vernor ginger ale 1866&f=false


----------



## hemihampton

Sounds like they are saying 1866 in that link? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As for the numerous accounts I've read about James Vernor Jr. supposedly saying in the 1930s that he did not support his father's claims about the 1866 origin date, I believe that's a lot of bunk, too! The reason I say this is because ...

This newspaper article is a full page advertisement about Vernor's Ginger Ale's 70th Anniversary, which was in 1936. James Vernor died in 1927, which was nine years before this ad was even published. Which means James Vernor Sr. had nothing to do with it - but James Vernor Jr. surely did. Full page ads like this weren't cheap and I have no doubt that James Vernor Jr. was involved with it and/or was at least aware of it and its contents. Its even possible that James Vernor Jr. wrote the original draft. Which compels me to ask, if James Vernor Jr. did not support his father's 1866 origin date, then why would he have allowed such an advertisement to be published in ...

*The Detroit Free Press  ~  July 29, 1936* 

Notice how conveniently the exact date of the paper and the date when they say the first glass of Vernor's Ginger Ale was served are exactly the same to the very day!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

hemihampton said:


> Sounds like they are saying 1866 in that link? LEON.



Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make. They're saying 1866 when they should have said 1880. The reason I posted it is because articles of that nature are possibly where the 1866 myth originated, which just expounded over the years to the point where it was too late to change it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Anyhoo ...*

That's my educated opinion and it will take some unquestionable, valid, bona fide documentation to convince me that Vernor's Ginger Ale was born, created, and/or first served in 1866. I consider myself one of the most open minded people in the world and open to all possibilities and will gladly stand corrected if/when the appropriate documentation is presented, but until that occurs I am of the opinion that Vernor's Ginger Ale was born, created, and/or first served in 1880 and not in 1866! As I said earlier, I base my opinion entirely on the 1911 trademark documents where James Vernor said in his own words ...


"Since about January 1st 1880"



(That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!)  :flag:


----------



## hemihampton

I think maybe he played around with it, experimented with it for years, before he thought he perfected it. Then one day after years of experimenting & perfecting it decided to get serious about it. And that might of been 1880. He couldn't of just made it in 1880 & then decide to get serious & trade mark then in 1880. LEON.


----------



## M.C.Glass

You're trying to revise history. References state that his profits increased in 1870 from $700 to $10,000 selling ginger ale. 
Just because you write your conclusions in big font doesn't make them more correct. State your doubts, as others have.
There  may be legalities that caused him to choose the 1880 date for his  trademark. Does not mean he didn't sell any ginger ale before that.  Doesn't mean he didn't sell the first batches of ginger ale extract or  from a fountain in 1866. The reason he was working with ginger ale before the war is  because it was popular in Ireland. Maybe he called it Irish Ginger.
But  you're comfortable calling him a liar because you can't find any news  stories from 150 years ago describing it. It continues to irritate. 
Try to figure out who invented Dr. Pepper.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

MCglass said:


> You're trying to revise history. References state that his profits increased in 1870 from $700 to $10,000 selling ginger ale.
> Just because you write your conclusions in big font doesn't make them more correct. State your doubts, as others have.
> There  may be legalities that caused him to choose the 1880 date for his  trademark. Does not mean he didn't sell any ginger ale before that.  Doesn't mean he didn't sell the first batches of ginger ale extract or  from a fountain in 1866. The reason he was working with ginger ale before the war is  because it was popular in Ireland. Maybe he called it Irish Ginger.
> But  you're comfortable calling him a liar because you can't find any news  stories from 150 years ago describing it. It continues to irritate.
> Try to figure out who invented Dr. Pepper.



MCglass

You're right! I am trying to revise history! That's what I attempt to do almost every day! Please show me a reference that's actually dated 1880 or earlier, (that wasn't written later) that says ...

*"His profits increased in 1870 from $700 to $10,000 selling ginger ale"*

... and I will stand humbly corrected! But if such a claim is found in publication dated later than 1880, then my opinion remains the same. 

Respectfully, 

Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

hemihampton said:


> I think maybe he played around with it, experimented with it for years, before he thought he perfected it. Then one day after years of experimenting & perfecting it decided to get serious about it. And that might of been 1880. He couldn't of just made it in 1880 & then decide to get serious & trade mark then in 1880. LEON.



Leon

That's a reasonable assumption, but proving it is another thing. Accurate historical accounts demand bona fide documentation to support such claims. Believe me, I would like nothing more than to find absolute proof that Vernor's Ginger Ale was born in 1866, or even 1876, but so far I have not seen a single thing that supports that. But I have seen an official document that says 1880. 

Respectfully, 

Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

The 1911 trademark documents didn't come from a newspaper archives, they came from here ...

https://tsdrsec.uspto.gov/ts/cd/casedocs/bundle-download.pdf?rn=83107


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

Of the thousands of words contained in this thread, the one word I find most interesting of all is where James Vernor scribbled on the 1911 trademark ...

"About"

That leads me to believe he wasn't absolutely sure of the exact day or year, but that it was "about" January 1, 1880 to the best of his recollection. Remember, the 1911 trademark was filed thirty-one years after 1880, and that's a long time for someone to recall exact dates. He wasn't even sure himself, but had it been 1866, 1876, etc; I have to believe he would have said as much and scribbled that on the trademark form instead of 1880.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

From 1866 to 1880 is fourteen years! That's a really long time to be experimenting with a formula for ginger ale or any other type of beverage! But that's not my point, my point is that almost every account on the planet says Vernor's Ginger Ale was born and first served at James Vernor's drug store at the corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street in Detroit, Michigan in 1866. The 1936 70th Anniversary newspaper article stated it was specifically on July 29, 1866. So its not as if I'm trying to rewrite history, I'm just challenging those claims and asking for 'proof' of the 1866 date. But so far I have not seen that proof!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

U.S. Census' and Tax Record for James Vernor. Please save and zoom to read ...

1866 Tax Record - Vernor & L'Hommedieu - Apothecaries 




1880 U.S. Census - Keeps Drug Store



(1890 U.S. Census - Not listed on Ancestry.com)

1900 U.S. Census  

James Sr. - Manfg.
James Jr. -  Clerk Wholesale Ginger Ale



1910 U.S. Census  

James Sr. - Manufacturer Ginger Ale
James Jr. -  Manager Ginger Ale


----------



## iggyworf

Even before this thread, Of the little info I knew about Vernors, I didn't think it was 1866 either, but 1880. With all this new info and documents I tend to stick with the 1880 date. But no need to get irritated, We are just having fun discussing the past and trying to decifer information. We are not trying to disrespect anyone. This has been an excellent thread. thanx everyone. I think I will go by a Vernors this morning!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Rich

Have you visited this site that shows Keith Wunderlich's amazing Vernor's collection and where he says (in part) ...

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detroit/June-2016/A-Ginger-Tale/

Today, the story is proudly repeated on the Vernors corporate website, though historians have cast doubt on whether it is fact or fiction. A July 29, 1936, Detroit News article about the 70th anniversary of the company doesn’t even mention the myth. Instead, Vernor’s son James Vernor II told the reporter that his father didn’t start making the ginger ale until after he returned from the war, saying “I suspect that all through the war he carried in his mind that formula for the soft drink.” A June 11, 1962, Detroit News story acknowledges the myth, but dismisses it as “fascinating, even if inaccurate.”


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## hemihampton

I'm not Irritated. Here's my Speculation. in 1866 he was Full time Pharmacist & Florist that in his spare time, on the side, experimented with some concoction called Ginger Ale. He served it to people that came into his Pharmacist. As the years went on the popularity of his Ginger Ale grew. And Grew. Then people said hey, this stuff is so good & getting so popular you oughta just sell Ginger Ale full time. He said your right, I think I will, this was 1880. Up until 1880 no news articles were written & no documents because this was a small little known secret of his & loyal Customers. Until he let the Cat out of the Bag in 1880 & went BIG TIME.  LEON.


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## iggyworf

Yes, Bob I did read most of that one. Yeah, I tend to agree it wasn't till after the war that he started to make it. Leon I like your Sum up of the story. 
It would be neat to check out his collection in person.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's an even closer look at Keith Wunderlich's incredible collection ...

http://photos.metrotimes.com/62012-2/?slide=1&img_1455-2


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## hemihampton

Wish they shown his cans of Vernors more, Lots of cans I did not see, Seen a few soda company's sell a Swiss Creme Soda can but never seen one by Vernors. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

In Search of ...

Proof-positive verification that James Vernor had a *Soda Fountain* at 235 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Michigan.

Please note it is not my intention to create controversy or upset any apple carts, but I feel it would be an injustice to any discussion about the history of Vernor's Ginger Ale not to question certain aspects of those histories that in some cases don't appear to be based on facts. Which, to my surprise, is exactly what I discovered when attempting to find verification about James Vernor having a soda fountain at his first location on the southwest corner of Woodward and Clifford. Even though about 99.9% of the accounts about Vernor's mention a soda fountain, some of which that even say his first glass of ginger ale was served over the counter of that soda fountain, I just can't for the life of me find an account from that actual time period between 1866 and 1880 that supports those claims. My investigation into this involved no less than ten hours of searching through ...

1. U.S. Census records
2. Detroit Business Directories
3. Newspaper Archives
4. Periodical Publications
5. Etc.

... and in none of sources could I find proof-positive verification that James Vernor had a soda fountain at 235 Woodward Avenue. So if anyone should ever find a verifiable reference for the supposed soda fountain in an account that was published anytime between 1866 and 1880, please share it with us and I will do the same. 

Note: I do not consider accounts from the early 1900s, such as a popular one from 1919, as verifiable. Some of those accounts were written 50+ years after the fact and do not necessarily support something that was supposed to have occurred between 1866 and 1880. 

Lastly: I would like to emphasize I'm not saying that James Vernor did not have a soda fountain at 235 Woodward, I'm just saying that I cannot find bona fide proof of it!

Respectfully,

Sodapopbob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As crazy as it might seem, after no less than 60 hours of searching various aspects about Vernor's, this newspaper snippet is still the absolute earliest published account I can find that refers to James Vernor's ginger ale. The only other reference I can find that even comes close to this is the 1911 Trademark document where it mentions 1880.  

The Detroit Free Press - Detroit, Michigan - June 28, 1884


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is for anyone who wishes to search through Detroit directories between 1852 and 1895. I personally prefer the same directories found on Ancestry.com because those are more easily searchable, whereas with these you have to figure out how to navigate through them. But because these directories are free to view and Ancestry.com requires a paid subscription, they are likely to appeal to more people. Check'em out and see what you can find ... 

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/detroit/DetroitRLPolkCityDirectories.html

Also check out this publication from 1891 about Charles L'Hommedieu ...

"The Pharmaceutical Era"  ~  February 1, 1891

(Scroll to or click on Page 69)

https://books.google.com/books?id=M...blfCq04FBDoAQgkMAA#v=onepage&q=vernor&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because it is rare to find accounts in an individual's own words, check out this documented testimony from James Vernor Jr. regarding bottling taxation. (Which has a lot of other interesting information as well)  

From ...

Internal-Revenue Hearings - May 9-27 1921

(If necessary, scroll back to Page 614 for the start of the testimony)

https://books.google.com/books?id=O...Ak#v=onepage&q=Vernor's soda fountain&f=false


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## iggyworf

Good work Bob! I will try to look thru some of those Detroit directories. I have access to ancestry.com also.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Rich

Thanks!

I don't know how familiar you are with Ancestry.com but if you dink around with it there is a way to isolate various directories without pulling up a bunch of other stuff. Once they are isolated you can then search any name or date you desire. Its definitely better than the link I posted because with those you have to figure out what's what on what page and then scroll through a jillion pages looking for the right listing. By the way, I found some interesting information about Vernor's "*Outfits*" that I will explain about later. 

Bob


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## hemihampton

Thanks for the Links Bob. Here's a old Vernors Cap I recently picked up. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Most of the Vernor histories I've read lead me to believe that James Vernor had a full-fledged soda fountain at his 235 Woodward Avenue drug store and that it had a counter-top and stools and was your typical 1800s style of soda fountain. Now, I'm not saying this is a myth, but I am saying I cannot find any published documents between 1866 and 1896 to support it. Even the 1884 newspaper article I posted that says "J. S. Vernor sold 1,500 glasses of ginger ale" is a little vague. The reason I say this is because its easy to assume the 1,500 glasses of ginger ale were served from a counter-type soda fountain, and I would agree with this myself if it wasn't for my steadfast opinion that assumptions don't necessarily confirm the existence of such a fountain. Before continuing, let's consider those 1,500 glasses of ginger ale for a moment. There are 720 minutes in 12 hours, which means if the Vernor drug store was open for 12 hours on that particular day, they would have had to serve a glass of ginger ale about every 30 seconds in order to serve 1,500 glasses in 12 hours. Even if Vernor's was open for 24 hours on that particular day, that's still about one glass of ginger ale every minute around the clock. For those who might be thinking that James Vernor had numerous employees serving the ginger ale, that too is an assumption that would need to be verified in order to set the record straight!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Even though I'm having difficulty confirming the existence of a soda fountain at James Vernor's drug store at 235 Woodward Avenue between 1866 and 1896, there is ample evidence for what was referred to as a "Vernor's Ginger Ale Outfit." I have not been able to narrow down exactly when those so called 'outfits' were first introduced, but I do know they were available at least as early as 1895, which I will show you shortly. 

But first, please open this link to Keith Wunderlich's book where he shows an image of one of the 'outfits' that he describes as having come from an old brochure. Unfortunately, he does not date it, but it appears to be genuine ...

Note: In Keith Wunderlich's book also notice the 1914 picture described as the 33 Woodward Avenue soda fountain and what *might* be two of those 'outfits' on the right side. It even appears that a clerk is filling a glass from one of them. Again, I'm not certain those are Vernor's Ginger Ale 'outfits' I'm just saying they might be! 

https://books.google.com/books?id=X...AF#v=onepage&q=James Vernor Apparatus&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next up is the earliest reference I have been able to find so far regarding one of James Vernor's so called 'outfits' 

from ...

The Pharmaceutical Era ~ May 9, 1895 

Notice on the link article where it says "his new scheme"

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...#v=onepage&q=vernor ginger ale outfit&f=false

Note: Google Books often only allows portions of an article to be saved, such as this partial snippet of the entire article ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

More references for Vernor's 'Outfits' ...

This first reference is questionable, but because it says "The novel way in which it is served" and "system" I thought I'd share it anyway.

Detroit Free Press ~ August 20, 1901

 

Detroit Free Press ~ May 20, 1902



Detroit Free Press ~ September 3, 1905

Notice the word 'plant' instead of 'outfit'


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a sampling of various establishments that sold Vernor's Ginger Ale on draught or in the form of an extract. I don't know if the draught examples were dispensed from one of James Vernor's 'outfits' or from some other type of fountain apparatus. I selected these particular examples because they are pre-1896, which is when James Vernor and his son relocated to 33 Woodward Avenue. Another reason I selected these particular examples is to illustrate how abundant such references were for Vernor's Ginger Ale during the late 1800s. That is, they are abundant for sales of Vernor's Ginger Ale by other merchants, but not so abundant by ginger ale sold by James Vernor himself. In other words, there are very few ads during this same time period that were published by James Vernor himself, but lots of ads published by various other merchants.   

All of the following are from the Detroit Free Press newspaper ...

June 2, 1885



June 4, 1887



July 2, 1893



1894 (I forgot to write in the exact day/month)



June 23, 1895


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

When I said "very few" Vernor's Ginger Ale ads between 1885 and 1895, what I actually meant was very few "different" ads. The reason I say this is because this *identical* word-for-word ad appeared at least 30 times during the summer of 1894. And to be more specific, this identical ad only appeared between June 23, 1894 and July 31, 1894. But even with that said, the ad is a little confusing because even though it has James Vernor's name and 235 Woodward Avenue address on it, it also says ... 

"*your grocer keeps the extract"*

So I'm not sure if James Vernor also sold the extract or if the only place you could get it was at a grocer. 

1894


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...

Any and all of the accounts that refer to a soda fountain at 235 Woodward Avenue *might* be referring to some type of portable fountain such as those called an "Outfit" and not necessarily a full-fledged soda fountain with a marble counter and stools. 

Regarding the 1,500 glasses of ginger ale again ...

Although unconfirmed, I have seen tid-bits of clues that hint at the Vernor's Ginger Ale Outfits as holding about 15 gallons of liquid. And if you do the math, we find ...

1. 15 gallons of liquid equal 1,920 ounces

2. If a serving of ginger ale was 12 ounces, then there would have been about 160 servings per each 15 gallon "Outfit"

3. Five individual "Outfits" held a combined total of about 800 servings

4. Ten individual "Outfits" held a combined total of about 1,600 servings

Which would have been totally doable in a single day if they had enough outfits and/or kept replenishing the ones they did have!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In search of ...

Exactly when James Vernor first introduced his "Vernor's Ginger Ale *Outfit*"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Note:  I take back parts of what I said in this earlier post. Its too vague and does not confirm that Vernor's Ginger Ale was available at the time. Nor does it confirm that Vernor & L'Hommedieu operated a soda fountain. Just because they sold a used fountain apparatus doesn't mean it was used by them. Please know that I'm not trying to be obstinate, but I do feel that such assumptions are not necessarily based on facts. And we all know what they say about "assume / assumptions"    





SODAPOPBOB said:


> Note:  I'm starting to do exactly what I did not intend, and that's to try and place every piece of the Vernor's puzzle together, when what I really had in mind was to only focus on two primary aspects, which are ...
> 
> 1. The 1866 date.
> 2. The 219 and 235 Woodward Avenue addresses.
> 
> So with that said, I'm going back to my original plan and only focus on those two basic aspects. I will leave it for others to try and figure out the rest of it, such as where James Vernor moved to and when, which is just as, if not more confusing than his early years between about 1866 and 1870.
> 
> Which brings us to this advertisement from ...
> 
> The Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1868
> 
> View attachment 172894
> 
> Notice:
> 
> 1. Vernor & L'Hommedieu
> 2. 219 Woodward Avenue
> 
> 3. Where it says ...
> 
> "*Been in use but ten days*"
> 
> This is a pretty vague reference connecting Vernor & L'Hommedieu with anything "soda fountain" related, but because it indicates the fountain was "used," it leads me to suspect they used it to dispense ginger ale, and possibly other fountain beverages.
> 
> Here's what I found regarding "Arctic Soda Fountains." (Of course there were other Arctic models, and I can't say for certain which model was being sold by Vernor & L'Hommedieu in the 1868 ad).
> 
> http://www.hagley.org/librarynews/quenching-thirst-knowledge-about-soda-water
> 
> View attachment 172895
> 
> View attachment 172896


----------



## hemihampton

Pic of another Outfit. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least (for the time being) ...

My offer for the free acl book still stands but I'm adding the following to it ...

1. Any published and verifiable reference for Vernor's Ginger Ale during or earlier than 1880

and adding ...

2. Any published and verifiable reference about James Vernor operating a counter-top-type with stools soda fountain during or earlier than 1880. 

Signed,

Sodapopbob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

hemihampton said:


> Pic of another Outfit. LEON.
> 
> View attachment 173361



Leon

Thanks 

I've seen those around but believe they are from the 1930s or 1940s. Do you have any specifics on the dates? The earliest example of the cabinet style, like the one I posted, is this patent from the 1930s. But it seems way too late unless Vernor waited several years to actually file for a patent on it. 

Filed: June 30, 1930
Registered: March 1, 1932

William E. Doughty was an assignor to the Vernor Ginger Ale Company. James Vernor was involved with quite a few patents but this is the only one I can find that looks anything like his cabinet-style "Outfit"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

For those who might not be aware of it, Google has a separate site called "Google Patents" that you can search by simply typing in the words 'James Vernor' and it will pull up every patent he was involved with. Google also has a separate site called "Google Books" that I use all the time but haven't figured out how to save images from, only small snippets. Anyway, check out those sites and see what you can find.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here are a couple of shortcut links for those that don't have time to search for websites ... 

Google Patents

https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_rd=ssl

Google Books

https://books.google.com/


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I forgot to mention I taste tested a bottle of Schweppes Ginger Ale today (that has 'Since 1783' on it) and it taste more like Sprite to me than it does ginger ale. Like I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of ginger ale but at least Vernor's taste like what I believe a ginger ale should and not like some type of highball mixer like Canada Dry and Schweppes.


----------



## hemihampton

I agree, No Ginger Ale as good as Vernor's. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

I am drinking a Vernors right now. Ice cold. Incredibly tasty! They are the best ginger Ale.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Here's a Vernors Product I bet you never seen before? Lift. Did not see any in Keith W. collection? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon

I'm not all that familiar with "Lift" other than I believe it was introduced in the late 1950s or early 1960s. I don't recall seeing anything about it in Keith Wunderlich's collection but could have missed it. What's the story about it? Did they ever produce it in a bottle?


----------



## hemihampton

I would assume made in a bottle but have not seen it. I don't know much about it but tough to get in a can. I have 4 different variations of it. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Leon, very cool! Strangely I have never heard of this one. Have to keep my eyes open for this one.


----------



## M.C.Glass

You posted the ad from 1868 showing J. Vernor and L'Hommidieu offering for sale, a 10 day old soda fountain. James Vernor was said to be a perfectionist. Maybe he thought the new fountain was sub standard or that he could have a better one built, after seeing the newest. No matter. 1868 is well before 1880.
To clarify, the 219 and 235 Woodward addresses are the same building. The change occurred in 1869-70.






SODAPOPBOB said:


> In Search of ...
> 
> Proof-positive verification that James Vernor had a *Soda Fountain* at 235 Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Michigan.
> 
> Please note it is not my intention to create controversy or upset any apple carts, but I feel it would be an injustice to any discussion about the history of Vernor's Ginger Ale not to question certain aspects of those histories that in some cases don't appear to be based on facts. Which, to my surprise, is exactly what I discovered when attempting to find verification about James Vernor having a soda fountain at his first location on the southwest corner of Woodward and Clifford. Even though about 99.9% of the accounts about Vernor's mention a soda fountain, some of which that even say his first glass of ginger ale was served over the counter of that soda fountain, I just can't for the life of me find an account from that actual time period between 1866 and 1880 that supports those claims. My investigation into this involved no less than ten hours of searching through ...
> 
> 1. U.S. Census records
> 2. Detroit Business Directories
> 3. Newspaper Archives
> 4. Periodical Publications
> 5. Etc.
> 
> ... and in none of sources could I find proof-positive verification that James Vernor had a soda fountain at 235 Woodward Avenue. So if anyone should ever find a verifiable reference for the supposed soda fountain in an account that was published anytime between 1866 and 1880, please share it with us and I will do the same.
> 
> Note: I do not consider accounts from the early 1900s, such as a popular one from 1919, as verifiable. Some of those accounts were written 50+ years after the fact and do not necessarily support something that was supposed to have occurred between 1866 and 1880.
> 
> Lastly: I would like to emphasize I'm not saying that James Vernor did not have a soda fountain at 235 Woodward, I'm just saying that I cannot find bona fide proof of it!
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Sodapopbob


----------



## M.C.Glass

hemihampton said:


> I agree, No Ginger Ale as good as Vernor's. LEON.



If you breathe in too close to the glass too soon after pouring it, you'll cough. Sprite, it's not.


----------



## M.C.Glass

Chirp, chirp, chirp... Crickets.


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah, it's weird how it does that. When you breath it in. I love it!


----------



## M.C.Glass

OK, so it turns out James Vernor DID have a soda fountain in his store before 1880 - in 1868. 



Mr. Vernor was a prominent man, his reputation as a perfectionist definitely manifested itself in his pharmacy and his business dealings and the respect and honesty with which he comported himself. By all accounts, he was an old-school, old-world, stand-up guy.
No one, can compare him to the low standards of personal and professional integrity displayed regularly today. 
If he says he sold ginger ale more or less continuously since 1866, you have to come up with proof that he did not. And you can't overlook evidence that contradicts your objective. It's irresponsible, to just scan your computer and refute publicly, and in the record, of the word of an honest man. Doubt if you will, but join me, in wishing
Vernor's Ginger Ale

a HAPPY 150th BIRTHDAY!!    :fireworks:     :boom:               

PM me for where to send the ACL book.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

MCglass said:


> OK, so it turns out James Vernor DID have a soda fountain in his store before 1880 - in 1868.
> 
> View attachment 173617
> 
> Mr. Vernor was a prominent man, his reputation as a perfectionist definitely manifested itself in his pharmacy and his business dealings and the respect and honesty with which he comported himself. By all accounts, he was an old-school, old-world, stand-up guy.
> No one, can compare him to the low standards of personal and professional integrity displayed regularly today.
> If he says he sold ginger ale more or less continuously since 1866, you have to come up with proof that he did not. And you can't overlook evidence that contradicts your objective. It's irresponsible, to just scan your computer and refute publicly, and in the record, of the word of an honest man. Doubt if you will, but join me, in wishing
> Vernor's Ginger Ale
> 
> a HAPPY 150th BIRTHDAY!!    :fireworks:     :boom:
> 
> PM me for where to send the ACL book.






MCglass

With all do respect ...

1. That 1868 newspaper advertisement does not confirm there was a full service soda fountain in James Vernor's drug store. It only confirms he had what was probably a portable fount for sale. 

2. I found that 1868 advertisement and originally posted it. 

3. The ACL book goes to the individual who finds and provides us with ...

A. Verifiable confirmation of the existence of "Vernor's Ginger Ale" from a source that was published earlier than 1880.

B. Verifiable confirmation there was a full service soda fountain at James Vernor's drug store that had a counter-top and stools from a source that was published in 1880 or earlier.

Respectfully,

Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB

The same applies to this 1867 newspaper article where it says ...

"Messrs. Vernor and L'Hommedieu, for the free use of a soda fount." 

It only confirms they loaned what was probably a portable soda fount. It does not confirm there was a full service soda fountain in James Vernor's and Charles L'Hommedieu's drug store. Nor does this article confirm the existence of "Vernor's Ginger Ale" earlier than 1880. 

The Detroit Free Press  ~  July 7, 1867


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## SODAPOPBOB

Most of the histories written about James Vernor and his ginger ale state he had a soda fountain in his first drug store on the corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street. I'm merely challenging those numerous histories in that I cannot find a single reference between 1866 and 1880 that confirms the existence of a full service soda fountain in James Vernor's drug store located on the corner of Woodward Avenue and Clifford Street. Here's the link to one of the more recent histories where it says ...

"Regardless of exactly how and when he arrived at his formula, Vernor started selling his ginger ale at his pharmacy’s soda fountain by 1866."

Note: The article is from a magazine called "Hour Detroit" that was published on May 31, 2016 and written by Leyland DeVito.

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detroit/June-2016/A-Ginger-Tale/


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## hemihampton

May be he served his Vernors at the first store in a portable non full service soda fountain. LEON.


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## SODABOB

I recently changed my email address which resulted in my having to re-register under a different name. My new name is now ...

*Sodabob *... and was formerly Sodapopbob

Now I can get email notifications and will be posting this message on various other threads in order to get notifications from those as well.


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## VernorsGuy

You guys are amazing! What a great discussion. I know the discussion has died out, but I'd like to get it going again. I'll need to look a little closer at some of the items in my collection and see if I can help with the date debate. Given the seriousness of it all, we might need to start calling it "Vernorgate". The biggest shame of all is that Dr Pepper, the owners of the Vernors brand, has no history at all. Dr Pepper soda pop history is intact. But, Vernors history was lost in the 1960s and 1970s when a series of different owners threw just about everything out. I sent Soda Bob an email saying the Detroit Historical Society has James Vernor's hand-written recipe book. I've never handled it. It's kept in a separate building from the museum in a secure and temperature controlled environment. He was so meticulous, I bet he dated his recipes. I have asked for someone to go look. (and take photos)

In the meantime, let me find some of my old paper artifacts - like the "outfit" brochure - and see if it's dated. I'll scan what I have and put things out here for everyone to see.

Glad I found you guys. You have some resources I've never seen. Totally against Soda Bob's advice, I go with the assumption model a lot. But, my guesses have been pretty close to correct - give or take five or ten years - to the facts I've read in this thread.

Looking forward to seeing what else you detectives can find.

Keith Wunderlich
(The guy who wrote the Vernor's book.)


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## SODABOB

Keith

Welcome to the forum ... :welcome:

I tried emailing you several times but for some reason (possibly on my end) they all failed. I can't wait to see what you come up with!

I didn't get your email - at least not yet! ???

Thanks for stopping by, 

Bob


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## VernorsGuy

Bob and other Vernor's enthusiasts-

I'll take some photos over the weekend and figure out how to add them to these posts. I have some cool stuff, but it looks like you do, too! This is going to be fun!

if anyone has requests not necessarily related to Vernor's starting in 1866, let me know. 

My email is vernorsclub@yahoo.com 

Keith


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## hemihampton

Hi Keith & Welcome to the site. Do you live in Detroit Area? LEON.


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## VernorsGuy

Trying to figure out how to insert photos on this site. I think I have attached three images from a price list brochure that had been mentioned earlier. There is no date, but it doesn't matter. The address is 33 Woodward Avenue so it's after 1896. (Hard to believe 1896 is "too new" for this discussion!) 

if the photos on this post actually appear, I'll send a great photo I have of a brochure that Vernor's made that says "Since 1868". That one was printed in 1927. 

Yes, I live in metro Detroit.


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## VernorsGuy

Looks like I can attach photos. Now I just need to figure out how to get them right side up! Two photos of two different, yet almost identical, brochures. The first says "Since 1868". The next one was corrected to "Since 1866". Print date is 1927. 

Part of me wants to believe 1868 was the true date. It makes more sense than the Civil War aging story. But, why would they throw away the 60 year anniversary celebration they could have had in 1928 by changing the year to 1866? 

Earlier in this thread someone said Vernor's is not America's oldest pop. Very true. I've never heard them claim that. The claim is America's oldest continuously produced pop. There were lots of pops before Vernor's. They just didn't make it to 2016.  So, maybe in 1927 the two year difference was important. Maybe another brand from 1867 was still in business and Vernor's needed that extra two years to be the oldest. 

Sorry, Bob, assumptions.


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## VernorsGuy

Great photo postcard with Vernor's on the left. It says from Ferry. Well, Ferry street is up in midtown. So, I think they actually mean a ferry - like a boat. Vernor's was only a few buildings away from the Detroit River in its second location.


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## VernorsGuy

Seeing that this IS a bottle forum.......

(Sorry for the upside down. Just learning this software!)


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## hemihampton

I like those Vernor's bottles. I dig Privy's in Detroit & never found one yet. LEON.


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## VernorsGuy

April 3, 1867 Detroit Free Press.
Stearns Drug Store sells soda fountain equipment and syrups, wholesale, for making soda. This is where James Vernor worked before the Civil War. Makes sense he would know something about soda fountains and making soda pop.


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## hemihampton

Their was a Fred Sterns Manufacturing co also. They manufactured pharmacy, drugs, medicines ect, ect. It was a huge building & Factory not on Woodward. Could he have worked there? LEON.


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## SODABOB

Keith

Great stuff! Please post more - especially the original stuff like the fountain brochure. Speaking of which, I hope you don't mind that I uprighted some of your images. Not all members save them to their files and this way they can be read without tilting your head. I'm not sure what causes certain images to post sideways, but it occasionally happens with other members as well. I'll be back later with some stuff of my own, but for now will start with these uprighted images ...


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## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> April 3, 1867 Detroit Free Press.
> Stearns Drug Store sells soda fountain equipment and syrups, wholesale, for making soda. This is where James Vernor worked before the Civil War. Makes sense he would know something about soda fountains and making soda pop.



Keith

Please correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I thought ...

1. That James Vernor worked for *Higby* & Stearns before the Civil War.

2. That the Stearns Drug Store in the 1867 newspaper was established later when Mr. Stearns opened his "wholesale" drug store that was not associated with Mr. Higby.  

The following two items are related to this and hopefully will be of interest. 

First up is this 1860 U.S. Census for Detroit, Michigan that shows James Vernor was employed as a "Clerk Drug Store" at the time and was 17 years old. Notice the Census was conducted on June 5, 1860. The Civil War began on April 12, 1861, so this should clearly establish that James Vernor was involved with the drug store trade at least a full year before the Civil War began. Even though the 1860 Census doesn't say which drug store James Vernor worked for, I'm pretty sure it was Higby & Stearns.





Notice it list the entire Vernor clan



Next up is this newspaper advertisement from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ July 24, 1860

The ad was published about six weeks after the U.S. Census was conducted on June 5, 1860 and establishes that Higby & Stearns was in operation at the time. It also establishes that Higby & Stearns had a soda fountain. If James Vernor worked there at the time (which I believe he did) then it indicates he had at least some soda fountain exposure and was possibly even a soda fountain clerk, or should I say, soda fountain *jerk*. (Pun intended).

Please note I never said James Vernor didn't have any hands-on experience with soda fountains in his early years or later. But what I did say is that I cannot find any time-period documentation to confirm he actually had a full service soda fountain at his Woodward Avenue address prior to about 1880. I know there are numerous accounts that were published in the teens and 1920s that allude to his having a soda fountain as early as 1866-67-68, but I just can't find one that was actually published in 1866-67-68. Finding ads that use the words "Soda Fountain" in 1860s Detroit newspapers is easy and there are lots of them like the one attached here. The only problem is, they refer to other Detroit soda fountains such as Higby & Stearns, but not a single one for James Vernor. (That I can find).

By the way, "Catawba Syrup" was used for some type of grape drink.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Their was a Fred Sterns Manufacturing co also. They manufactured pharmacy, drugs, medicines ect, ect. It was a huge building & Factory not on Woodward. Could he have worked there? LEON.



Leon

I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that Frederick Stearns was one and the same of Higby & Stearns. Even though I haven't narrowed down the exact year yet, indications suggest he established his "wholesale" drug business around 1867 or 1868. There are also indications that he parted ways with Higby about the same time to establish his "wholesale" drug business. 

Notice in this 1869 Detroit directory where it list Stearns, Frederick as a "Druggist, Wholesale." Also notice that it list Vernor J. & Co. 

Note: The Vernor listing is carried over from page 84 of the directory where it had "Druggist, Retail" (which I did not save a picture of when I was subscribed to Ancestry.com, and is where I found it).


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## iggyworf

Kieth, welcome. I am glad to have another Michigander on the site. A lot of us like sluething about bottle history. I also love those bottles you posted. I don't have any of those. I didn't think this thread I started would get so much attention. I love it!


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## SODABOB

Hey, iggy

Wait until you see what I just found! It might open an entirely new discussion pertaining to ...

This!




(To be continued after I get my ducks in a row)


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## iggyworf

That's great Bob. Now start lining up those ducks! LOL.  I have to catch up on this one also.


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## hemihampton

Interesting Bob. Here's a pic of the Frederick Stearns Pharmacy Co Inc. on my old 1800's Sanborn Maps. What's the relation if any to Vernor's? LEON.


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## VernorsGuy

Thought you would be interested in these extract bottles. Unfortunately, the two with paper labels have the 33 Woodward address. I was hoping the bottle style was older. There don't seem to be any markings - but if there's something I should look for, let me know.  It looks like not much changed from the James Vernor Druggist bottle I posted earlier. However, Vernor was thrifty so he could have reused these for years and just put new labels on them. I assume all the extracts like these had paper labels at one time. The blue one is probably older because it doesn't have the 1906 Food and Drug act mentioned.


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## VernorsGuy

Happy Labor Day!

When I was a kid, and I suspect when many of you were kids, every drug store had a soda fountain. In fact, every five and dime had one, too. 

I would love to find proof of the 1866 Vernor's soda fountain. In the absence of that proof ( depending on what Bob has up his sleeves) I think we have some evidence that points to the probability:
    - James Vernor worked at a drug store, Higby & Stearns
    - Higby & Stearns had a soda fountain
    - Stearns went on to wholesale soda fountain equipment
    - James had soda fountain experience (even Bob will give me that one)

This one is a bit of a leap:
    - James opened up his own drug store in the image of the one he knew best, Higby & Stearns. 

The question to me is, if all drug stores had soda fountains why wouldn't James Vernor's drug store have one? Especially if that was a comfortable skill?

His is location at Woodward and Clifford was considered too far north of the central business district to succeed. So, he had to be a creative entrepreneur. He was the CVS of the 1860s, selling everything from cigars to flowers in addition to his main prescription business. Why not soda pop?

I know the answer - we don't have proof.

But, I think the reason it wasn't advertised was he never imagined it was going to be his "hit" product. To me, I think he thought flowers were going to be his fortune. There was quite a bit of effort advertising that part of his business. The soda pop was no big deal. Just something every drug store sold. Flowers - now that was different!


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## VernorsGuy

James Vernor Florist cards. Sorry for my newness with posting photos. The order was changed from how I posted them. Photos 1 and 3 go together. Photos 2 and 4 go together. Photos 5 and 6 go together. Front and back of florist cards.


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## hemihampton

I like those Extract Bottles. Nice. LEON.


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## SODABOB

Keith

Happy Labor Day to you, too.

First of all, thanks for the great pictures of some great bottles. If you haven't done so already, there are advanced collectors of medicinal-type bottles who can possibly date your Vernor's extract bottles within a few years of when they were made. Even if they were reused, a knowledgeable collector should be able zero-in on how and when they were made. They might even be able to use your pictures for a circa date. The business cards are especially cool. They are in amazingly good shape.

Speaking of cards ... 

You're right, I do have something up my sleeve. I wouldn't exactly call it an Ace of spades, but it might qualify as a King of spades. I'm working on it now and hope to have it posted later today. It will include some additional comments in reply to yours. 

I'll be back!

Bob

(I selected this particular card because of the bottle the King is holding)


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## iggyworf

Nice bottles and cards. Kieth, thanx for jumping in on this. I know I have not contributed a lot but still love it.


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## SODABOB

First things first!

Please know, and I mean this sincerely, I'm as eager as anyone to find confirmation ...

1. That James Vernor had some type of soda fountain in his first location at 219/235 Woodward Avenue.

2. That James Vernor had some type of soda fountain at that location prior to about 1880.

3. That James Vernor actually served and sold some type of fountain drink at that location.

4. That James Vernor created and served his Ginger Ale at that location prior to about 1880.

5. That James Vernor invented his Ginger Ale in 1866 as 99.9% of the accounts claim. 

Additionally ...

I do not now, nor have I ever doubted that James Vernor established his first drug store in 1866.


However, I do call into question whether he had a soda fountain and served his Ginger Ale at that original location. 

One of the reasons I say this is because in his own words and own handwriting he stated on his 1911 trademark application ...

"The trademark has been continuously used in my business since about January 1st, 1880"

 

If he created his Ginger Ale in 1866, or even 1876, then why did he say "About January 1st,1880"




Another reason I say this is because the earliest time-period publication I can find that uses the words "James Vernor" and "Ginger Ale" in the same sentence is dated June 28, 1884.




Furthermore ...

If James Vernor had a soda fountain at 219/235 Woodward Avenue and served his Ginger Ale there as early as 1866-1868, then why, among the easy to find and numerous ads about flowers, cigars, etc; is there not a single ad about his soda fountain or Ginger Ale? From 1866 to 1884 is 18 years. 18 years seems like an extremely long time to be involved in business and various forms of advertising and not, at least occasionally, advertise your soda fountain and what was served there. 

And yet ...

Even with all the doubts and negative press I have contributed to this discussion, I remain open minded to the point where I'm willing to share what I call a "King of Spades" up my sleeve that will hopefully add a new spin to this discussion and give some of us reason to believe that ... 

(To be continued)  :flag:


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## SODABOB

Meet ...

*James Walker Tufts

*Born: 1835
Died: 1902

This link opens to the best bio I can find for him - From 1894

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...nepage&q=James Tufts Arctic Trademark&f=false



Inventor and manufacture of ...
*
The Arctic Soda-Water Apparatus

*This is the earliest Patent I can find for James Walker Tufts (But there may be earlier ones)

Patented: April 27, 1869








1871 Article/Ad - "Boston Journal of Chemistry" 



1874 Book (Considered rare and valuable)



Page from book




(To be continued with "The King of Spades")


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## SODABOB

By the way, it was Keith who inspired me to come up with the term "King of Spades" when he said ...

"I would love to find proof of the 1866 Vernor's soda fountain. In the absence of that proof (depending on what Bob has up his sleeves) ... "

And the reason I say "King of Spades" and not "Ace of Spades" is because an Ace is often a sure winner, whereas a King is, well, not a sure thing compared to an Ace. In other words, the following is not, in my opinion, absolute confirmation that James Vernor operated a soda fountain at his original location, but it does give us reason to ask ...

1. Where did he get the Arctic Soda Fountain mentioned in this newspaper snippet from ... 

The Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1868



2. Did he buy it new and personally "use" it for "ten days" or was he possibly selling it for some other reason? And if he didn't use it for ten days, then who did?

Notice in this next article, posted by Keith earlier, that the Stearn's drug store sold a variety of different soda fountains, but they did not sell the "Tufts' Arctic" soda fountains. I wonder why?

Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1867



The best explanation I can find as to why Stearn's did not sell "Arctic" soda fountains might be found in this advertisement from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ May 22, 1867

Notice where it says ...

"W. Johnston, 155 Jefferson Avenue, Detroit, ......... *is my authorized Agent*"



W. Johnston was still selling them in 1868



And still selling them in 1869

Notice where it says ...

"Michigan Agent" 




Notice in this article from September 19, 1868 where it describes the Arctic as ...

"... having receptacles for ten or twelve different kinds of syrup" 

(Compare this description to the pictures of the Arctic I posted earlier)




So, as you can hopefully see, I'm leaving the door wide open for the *possibility* ...

1. That James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from W. Johnston.
2. That James Vernor "used" the Arctic Soda Fountain himself for ten days.
3. That James Vernor decided to sell it because he didn't like it, or possibly to upgrade to a different one.

However, and this is the tricky part, and why I said a "King" and not an "Ace," because everything I just posted is pure speculation on my part and might not amount to a hill of beans unless research allows such conjectures and speculations to become truth regardless of what the actual facts might be. In other words, I'm taking a single newspaper ad about James Vernor selling a used Arctic Soda Fountain and using that advertisement to suggest he did indeed have a soda fountain in his original location at 219/235 Woodward Avenue. Which I have to admit is kind of weak evidence, and why I would prefer something more substantial. And yet, because of the likelihood that James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from William Johnston, it does make me wonder why he would do that if not to use it himself. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but truth and proof are dependent on facts and not conjecture or speculation!

So there you have it! My "King of Spades" (up my sleeve). I don't know if it will prove anything, but it should definitely give us something to think about. 

Bob ... a.k.a Sodabob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

To summarize in a single sentence ...

Because of the likelihood that James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from William Johnston, it makes me wonder why he would do that unless he intended to use it himself?


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## SODABOB

In Search of ...


----------



## VernorsGuy

Well, as long as you said cards.....

This has a copyright date of 1888.


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## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> To summarize in a single sentence ...
> 
> Because of the likelihood that James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from William Johnston, it makes me wonder why he would do that unless he intended to use it himself?
> 
> View attachment 174624




Maybe he used it to sell/serve his Customers Vernor's Ginger Ale. makes sense to me. LEON.


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## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Maybe he used it to sell/serve his Customers Vernor's Ginger Ale. makes sense to me. LEON.



Leon

You hit the nail on the head with the word ...

"Maybe" 

Which sort of takes us back to square one. Meaning; I wish we could eliminate such words as maybe, possibly, might have, perhaps, etc; and be able to determine with absolute certainty  ...

1. If James Vernor did or did not have a soda fountain at his Woodward Avenue drug store prior to about 1880?

2. If James Vernor did or did not produce and sell his Ginger Ale prior to about 1880?

And if the answer to either or both of the above questions is "Yes, he did!" then why is it even a question and where is the evidence, proof, confirmation, to substantiate it? It seems to me it shouldn't be that difficult to find. And yet, here we are still wondering about it. (At least I still am)


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## hemihampton

Sounds like we have proof he had a soda fountain he used for 10 days in 1868. Now we need proof he sold Vernor's using it for that 10 days. I don't think the ad would go so far as to specify he used Vernors in it but if it did then it would be case closed wouldn't? LEON.


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## SODABOB

I'm not sure what I stumbled on to here and whether its relevant or not, but I thought it was kind of interesting. Earlier I posted some ads for W. Johnston's Drug Store regarding his involvement with the sale of Arctic Soda Fountains. I was curious about him and discovered he had a drug store(s) in Detroit at least as early as 1862. That would have been the same time period when Higby & Stearns was going strong. I also discovered that W. Johnston had a soda fountain where he served Belfast Ginger Ale. (And possibly his own brand of ginger ale, but I'm still looking for confirmation on that). Anyway, he was a prolific advertiser and it appears he was quite successful. This got me to wondering about other drug stores who had soda fountains and served ginger ale, especially those who did a lot of advertising. The reason I'm tying this in with a Vernor's discussion, is because there seems to have been a great deal of competition among Detroit drug stores in the late 1860s and early 1870s, and W. Johnston seems to have been one of the biggest. 

Which makes me wonder ...

What, if any, influence Johnston and Vernor might have had on one another? Surely they were aware of each other, being as they were both druggist in the same city and, as near as I can determine, almost in the same neighborhood. Johnston was at Jefferson Avenue and Vernor was at Woodward Avenue. I realize customers probably didn't travel long distances during that time just to buy a glass of ginger ale, but I doubt druggist relied strictly on customers within a few blocks of their store for all of their sales. If that was the case, then why advertise if all you needed to do to stay solvent was to rely on local trade? With my point being; if someone like W. Johnston was big into advertising his soda fountain and ginger ale, then why wouldn't someone like James Vernor do the same? Vernor advertised flowers, cigars, etc; but if he had a soda fountain and served ginger ale there, then why not advertise those as well? 

Anyway, here's what I thought was an interesting newspaper page from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ May 25, 1873 

(There are approximately 20 Johnston's ads on this one page)

(There are no Vernor's ads on this page) 

(Save and zoom to read in detail)





Sampling of Johnston's ads

 





Reminder: 

Because W. Johnston was an authorized agent for Tufts' Fountain Apparatus', I'm thinking its "possible" that James Vernor bought his Arctic Fountain from him. If so, then they likely knew each other and possibly talked about such things as soda fountains and ginger ale.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

The newspaper I just posted falls in with what I said earlier about soda fountain and ginger ale ads being easy to find. There are literally tons of them between about 1860 and 1880 - but the earliest Vernor's Ginger Ale reference I can find still stand at 1884.


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## SODABOB

I'm going to share this ad and call it a day. Starting tomorrow, I'm going to see what else I can find about my mysterious Mr. Johnston. Maybe he was ... ???

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ April 30, *​1871

*I think the smudged word is 'Dealer'


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## SODABOB

One more for the road - from Page 3 Post #21 of this thread - June 20, 2016

"Drug Store *Counter*"  ???




SODAPOPBOB said:


> Speaking of Vernor's newspaper accounts, here's just one of hundreds ...
> 
> The Detroit Free Press ~ June 17, 1941
> 
> View attachment 172759
> 
> Key wording ...
> 
> 1. *1866*
> 
> 2. Offered over his drug store counter, Vernor's Ginger Ale was received with *immediate* enthusiasm.
> 
> View attachment 172760


----------



## VernorsGuy

Bob or others with your amazing resources-

Do you have any dates or information on C.R. Holman? This Vernor's seltzer/syphon says "Vernor's Ginger Ale sold by C.R. Holman". 

Not even sure if this is Detroit or somewhere else. 

Syphons in this style began in 1830 - but never changed much. Maybe Holman's era will help us date Vernor's.


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## hemihampton

Really like that Seltzer, I got a few from Detroit & Michigan & never seen that one. LEON.


----------



## VernorsGuy

One more piece of information about the origin of Vernor's.

I saw a reference to an article in the September 10, 1919 Detroit Journal (I don't have the article) that said "Druggist Vernor often thought of dropping the soft drink sideline because it took up too much room and required so much attention that the prescription business fell off." I don't know if the author is quoting the Journal article or not, but they also say "In the first drug store of James Vernor Sr., on Woodward at Clifford, was a gooseneck and a regular soda fountain. From the soda fountain flower carbonated water for making plain sodas; from the gooseneck came ginger ale of a peculiarly seductive vintage. The gooseneck, designed by Mr. Vernor, was a pip in the form of an inverted U with a dispenser faucet in the center."

So - what if James Vernor got rid of his Arctic Soda Fountain because it took up too much room? What if he designed his own gooseneck dispenser to meet his need for space? What if he didn't advertise his ginger ale because it was disrupting his prescription business even without advertising? 

Yes, many "what ifs". However, let's remember that he wasn't just another druggist. He was Michigan's first registered pharmacist. He created the Michigan pharmaceutical Association  and served on the Board. He took the pharmacy part of his business very seriously.


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## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> Bob or others with your amazing resources-
> 
> Do you have any dates or information on C.R. Holman? This Vernor's seltzer/syphon says "Vernor's Ginger Ale sold by C.R. Holman".
> 
> Not even sure if this is Detroit or somewhere else.
> 
> Syphons in this style began in 1830 - but never changed much. Maybe Holman's era will help us date Vernor's.
> 
> View attachment 174648



Keith

I'm not sure the word "amazing" applies here because I conduced an exhaustive search but could not find a single thing that connects a C.R. Holman with Vernor's Ginger Ale. I found at least fifteen different C.R. Holman's in as many different states from the mid 1800s to the early 1900s, but none of them had anything to do with bottling, drug stores, grocery stores, etc., or merchandising of any type. I also looked for other seltzer bottles with Vernor's name on it but couldn't find one of those, either. Which brings me to the following questions I'd like to ask about the bottle ...

(Assuming you own it) 

1. Does it have any type of makers mark or any embossed numbers/letters on it, especially on the heel and/or base? 

2. Does it have the original spout/dispensing fixture? (I can see the glass straw in your picture). Often times those dispensing fixtures will have a manufacturer's name and/or location on it.


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of "glass," I came across the following that I thought was kinda interesting ...

This newspaper snippet is from the Detroit Free Press and is dated June 17, 1927. Its one of a series of articles the newspaper used to run about what happened on a particular day in the past. In this case, the particular day it refers to is June 17, 1877, which is exactly 50 years to the day when the 1927 article was published. Because of the way its worded, I'm assuming it refers to actual articles the Detroit Free Press published and is sort of like a "This day in history" column. 

Anyway, notice it says ... 

"James Vernor is putting in a glass front to his drug store at 235 Woodward avenue." 

( I looked for the original 1877 article but have not been able to find it - at least not yet)




Take a close look at the glass front in this early picture (exact date unknown to me but often described as circa 1870) and notice the windows appear to be in segments ... 



Now take a close look at the glass front in this next picture (which I also do not know the exact date for) and compare it to the windows in the last picture. Notice they are no longer segmented but are full panes of glass ...

 

When you take into account what is says in the newspaper article and compare the pictures, it leads me to suspect the last picture was taken sometime after June 17, 1877, which might help to narrow down the date a little more, such as "circa 1877" (at the earliest).


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> One more piece of information about the origin of Vernor's.
> 
> I saw a reference to an article in the September 10, 1919 Detroit Journal (I don't have the article) that said "Druggist Vernor often thought of dropping the soft drink sideline because it took up too much room and required so much attention that the prescription business fell off." I don't know if the author is quoting the Journal article or not, but they also say "In the first drug store of James Vernor Sr., on Woodward at Clifford, was a gooseneck and a regular soda fountain. From the soda fountain flower carbonated water for making plain sodas; from the gooseneck came ginger ale of a peculiarly seductive vintage. The gooseneck, designed by Mr. Vernor, was a pip in the form of an inverted U with a dispenser faucet in the center."
> 
> So - what if James Vernor got rid of his Arctic Soda Fountain because it took up too much room? What if he designed his own gooseneck dispenser to meet his need for space? What if he didn't advertise his ginger ale because it was disrupting his prescription business even without advertising?
> 
> Yes, many "what ifs". However, let's remember that he wasn't just another druggist. He was Michigan's first registered pharmacist. He created the Michigan pharmaceutical Association  and served on the Board. He took the pharmacy part of his business very seriously.




Keith

Here's pretty much the same information from a periodical called ...

Bulletin of Pharmacy ~ Volume XXXIII ~ January to December, 1919 ~ E.G. Swift, Publisher 

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...v=onepage&q=Vernor gooseneck fountain&f=false

(I wish I knew how to print-out these types of files but haven't figured out how to do it, or if its even possible)


----------



## VernorsGuy

I do own the seltzer and will take a look at it this evening. 

Regarding the "quotes" in my recent post (#341), it looks like it's actually a second or third hand quote from the article posted in #44, which is the Bulletin of Pharmacy from 1919. If you look at that article, it's a direct quote from James Vernor 1 that the soda fountain took up too much room. But, he stops short of saying he got rid of it. "I was on the point of throwing the fountain out" is the actual Vernor quote. So, sounds like he didn't.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

We discussed that 1919 article earlier in this thread, which I personally discounted because of the 1919 date and the possibility it might have been where some of what I consider misinformation originated, not to mention is says 1868 and not 1866, which I find kind of strange if we are to accept it as being 100% accurate.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> I do own the seltzer and will take a look at it this evening.



Thanks. 

If it has any marks, it could be easy-smeasy to date. By the way, do you think because Vernor's is etched in block letters and not in script that that has any connection to when it was made?


----------



## VernorsGuy

Yes, the block lettering was 1800's and early 1900's. Once they went to the script lettering they used it for a very long time. But, even with block lettering, if the seltzer dates after 1880 it doesn't help the argument.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Hopefully these photos will help. Here is the bottom of the Vernor's by Holman seltzer:



Those are the only markings. No markings on the spicket. 



I also have have this one - sorry for driving all you bottle collectors crazy with this stuff - this is one of my prize pieces:



No manufacturer markings at all. The spicket says "Vernor Detroit Mich". Here are more photos attached. Any help with dates is very much appreciated.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Totally unrelated to previous post. But, as long as I had my display case all torn apart to grab the seltzers, thought I should grab this photo. Two different very early paper labels.


----------



## hemihampton

I like those 2 Seltzers & paper label bottles. What date would those 2 paper label bottles be?. Also, most of the Seltzers I have & Seen are usually made in Czeckaslovokia (did i spell that right?) LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I have a question. If Faygo made a Hutch bottle why didn't Vernors? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Yes those PL bottles are excellent. I have also wondered about a Vernors hutch.


----------



## VernorsGuy

The paper labels are around 1910. Post #196 pegged them with a trademark at 1911. But, seems like Mr. Vernor was always late getting his trademarks.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Quick question ...

Is your Vernor's Austrian seltzer bottle Hand-blown or Machine-made? 

Note: Check the mold seams on either side and see if they stop near the shoulder or go to the top of the lip.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon & iggy/Rich

Good question about why there are no Vernor's Hutchinson bottles. The Hutchinson bottle was patented in 1879 and was still being produced by some glass makers into the 1920s. The Crown closure was patented by William Painter in 1892, but the earliest confirmed examples are dated 1894-95. You'd think James Vernor would have started with a Hutchinson if he was bottling his (carbonated) ginger ale prior to about 1895. You also gotta wonder why it appears he waited until about 1902 to start bottling his (carbonated) ginger ale?


----------



## SODABOB

Food for thought ...

Hires Root Beer was introduced in 1876 and only available as an extract at soda fountains and in small extract bottles for home use until about 1897 when it was first bottled in a carbonated version. There are no Hires Hutchinson bottles that I'm aware of, and as near as I can determine, Hires was the very first "major/national" brand to bottle its beverage in a Crown finish bottle. I wonder if the manufacturing and bottling of Hires Root Beer had any influence on James Vernor?


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If it turns out that Vernor's Ginger Ale was not introduced until "about 1880" (as the trademark document indicates), then the 1876 introduction of Hires Root Beer would make Hires "America's oldest, continuously produced soda pop." Hmmm, I wonder!


----------



## SODABOB

Now that I stop and think about it, this entire mystery might be solved (or at least part of the mystery) if someone can "accurately" date what they believe is the "earliest/first" Vernor's Ginger Ale *extract bottle*. Surely there's some expert out there who knows how to accurately date early medicinal-type bottles and can figure out how to date an early Vernor's extract bottle within about five years or so. ???

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that a mid to late 1800s medicinal type bottle would be hand-blown and not machine made. Machine made bottles would typically date to about 1910 or later. The type of "finish" or "closure" on a mid to late 1800s medicinal type bottle should also help to date them.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Here are some answers and thoughts:
1. I'll check the seam on the extract bottles and let you know.
2. I believe Vernor's started bottling carbonated pop in 1896. This is the year they sold the pharmacy and moved. If you were going to concentrate on ginger ale, it makes sense you'd be bottling it and not just running a soda fountain and shipping out extract.
3. The Vernor's extract bottles look exactly like the largest Vernor druggist bottle. I'm not a bottle expert. Maybe an expert could tell the difference. 
4. One of my paper label extracts still has some extract in it and is corked. But, not sure if that's the original closure. 
5. In over 35 years of collecting Vernor's, I've only found a handful of druggist bottles. Seems like there should be thousands of them. But, even with eBay and the internet, they don't pop up. My point: there could be a Hutch. There could be some earlier extracts. He could have used plain bottles with no embossing and the paper labels have long since vanished. I know of a ton of Vernor's items that I don't have in my collection. But, usually when I find something new, it's a brand new find. I didn't even know I didn't have it. Even though I have a large Vernor's collection, I'm not ready to say I have a complete history of early bottles. I know of one other seltzer - totally different from the two I've shown. I'm sure there must be others. All I'm saying is, as we try to piece together the early history of Vernor's we are only putting the pieces together that we have. There are undoubtably missing pieces of the puzzle. And, some of those missing pieces could change the entire story. 
6. Hires. I love Hires. It's my favorite root beer. But, where do you buy it? Nowhere. I've heard there might be a place in Mississippi where you can get it. It's still listed on the Dr Pepper web site. But if Hires still is a brand, which is questionable, it's distribution is non-existent. Not sure it qualifies as "continuously produced".


----------



## hemihampton

Before Keith said it I always wondered that if Vernor's trademark was not until 1880 couldn't he have produced it earlier but just not trade marked it? I don't know about trade marks but as far as I know a Patent will be pending sometines for years before approved. Are Trademarks the same? LEON.

P.S. First Faygo hutch was 1907. Kinda late as I think most people were starting to switch to the crowntop by then.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> 6. Hires. I love Hires. It's my favorite root beer. But, where do you buy it? Nowhere. I've heard there might be a place in Mississippi where you can get it. It's still listed on the Dr Pepper web site. But if Hires still is a brand, which is questionable, it's distribution is non-existent. Not sure it qualifies as "continuously produced".



Keith

Hires Root Beer is still being produced and available in many areas. You can even buy 12 Packs on eBay, The Sodafinder, and The Soda Emporium. I just checked and there are at least two listings for it currently on eBay.

Here's a link to one of the eBay listings ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hires-Root-...854514?hash=item46498f8a32:g:i5QAAOSwll1Wz4BD

Described: 

[FONT=&amp]This item is for One 12-pack of Hires Root Beer in 12-oz cans. Expiration date 10-10-2016.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]This item will not come in original packaging. It will be unpacked so that the individual cans can be repacked into a large Priority Mail flat-rate box.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]I wish the costs were cheaper, but this soda is expensive, very rare, I have to go to out-of-state to get it, and the shipping alone is more than $16.00. 

[/FONT]Note: This particular seller is located in Oregon




And here's the link to the Soda Emporium ...

http://soda-emporium.com/FRESH-12-P...edium=Product_Search&utm_campaign=google_base


----------



## VernorsGuy

I just checked both seltzer bottles and don't see any seam at all, even on the sides. I looked very carefully and felt for a seam, too. 

The extracts have a pronounced seam running right up to the flat ring at the very top of the bottle.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> I just checked both seltzer bottles and don't see any seam at all, even on the sides. I looked very carefully and felt for a seam, too.
> 
> The extracts have a pronounced seam running right up to the flat ring at the very top of the bottle.



Keith

Because the Extract bottles have a seam going all the way up and over the lip, they are most certainly machine made, dating them to about 1905 at the earliest. 

As for the Seltzer bottles, that gets a little trickier. Based on what I know about them, seltzer bottles produced in places like Austria and Czechoslovakia were more of an art form and its possible they were hand blown during the entire time they were being produced. Whereas, many American made seltzer bottles eventually fell victim of the machine era of the early 1900s. So, it might take an expert in Austrian and Czech bottling making to accurately date them. The seams alone don't tell the whole story. 

Additionally, I discovered that the mark on the base of the C.R. Holman seltzer bottle is ...

C St. S ... as in ... C Saint S

And even though I have found several examples with that same mark, no one, including me, seems to know what the C St. S stands for, other than it was a glass maker of some type in Austria. What I'm going to do is, to try and determine when the company brand names on the C St. S bottles I found started their operations, and from there hopefully be able to determine a circa date for when their bottles were made. I'll let you know if/when I figure it out.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> Hopefully these photos will help. Here is the bottom of the Vernor's by Holman seltzer:
> 
> View attachment 174681
> 
> Those are the only markings. No markings on the spicket.
> 
> View attachment 174682
> 
> I also have have this one - sorry for driving all you bottle collectors crazy with this stuff - this is one of my prize pieces:
> 
> View attachment 174683
> 
> No manufacturer markings at all. The spicket says "Vernor Detroit Mich". Here are more photos attached. Any help with dates is very much appreciated.



P.S.

I forgot to ask if the C.R. Holman seltzer bottle has what collectors call a "Footed" base like the bottle does that you posted a full-image picture of? Based on what I've read, those so called "Footed" bottles were apparently made earlier than the standard-base bottles. But just how much earlier, I don't know, yet.


----------



## SODABOB

Okay, I'm finally making some progress - now we just need to figure out the date for Keith's C.R. Holman / Vernor's Ginger Ale seltzer bottle ...

*CStS* stands for ... *Carl Stolzles Sohne ~ Vienna, Austria


*Very confusing dates - but take a look, anyway

http://www.bottlepickers.com/trademarks.htm


http://www.cmog.org/library/palmen-press-kristall


http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/geisel-glaswerke-stoelzle.pdf


http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass notes/mans-s.htm


http://dati.acs.beniculturali.it/oad/uodMarchi/MR027458


http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2010-4w-sg-stoelzle-zeittafel-neu.pdf


1886 Seltzer Bottle Patent (But different than Keith's)


https://www.google.si/patents/US334159

1925 Invoice


----------



## SODABOB

[FONT=&quot]*Palmen Press-Kristall.
*
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][h=2]Bibliographic Record Display[/h]

*Database*The Rakow Library Catalog

*Author:*C. Stölzle's Söhne. Heřmanova Hut, Plzeň, Czech Republic. 

*Title:*Palmen Press-Kristall.

*Publisher:*[Wien : C. Stölzle's Söhne AG, n.d., 1932-1935] (Wien : Josef Gerstmayer)

*Description:*4 leaves : col. ill. ; 23 x 30 cm.

*Notes:*Cover title.
Trade catalog.
Glass manufacturer has been identified as C. Stölzle's Söhne AG of Vienna, Austria who owned multiple glasshouses during this time. Glassware in this catalog was manufactured at Heřmanova Hut, Plzeň, Czech Republic. There is no company name on the catalog, however a trademark of a circle, with 4 prunted points protruding outwards from the circle, with "C·St·S" on the inside ("St" is larger than other letters) confirms company name.
Heřmanova Hut was established in 1907 by the company Carl Stölzle & Sohne and began producing glass in 1910.
Catalog is not dated. Suggested date derived from related catalog (Bib no. 136043), whose catalog number was compared to other numbered and dated catalogs from Stölzle.
Leaves numbered 24-27.
Ware numbers all in the 18300 range.
Includes pressed glass tableware, most of which seem to have the palm tree insignia emcompassed in the design of the piece.
Includes plates, bowls, cups, saucers, knife rests, open salts, tumblers, pitchers, sugar and cream sets, vases, trays, ashtrays, perfume, atomizers, covered boxes, ring holders, and more.
Glassware in this catalog can be found in "Pressed glass: price list for catalogue 186" (Bib 136043), with the same ware numbers and same prices. That catalog was attributed to Heřmanova Hut which was owned by C. Stölzle's Söhne AG - the company whose trademark is found on this catalog.

*Provenance:*Purchase; James Steerman;

*Record Number:*132392
*Subjects:*C. Stölzle's Söhne AG. Heřmanova Hut--Catalogs. 
Pressed glass--Czech Republic--Catalogs. 
Tableware--Catalogs. 
Glass industry and trade--Czech Republic--20th century. 
[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

A trademark of a circle, with 4 prunted points protruding outwards from the circle, with "C·St·S" on the inside ("St" is larger than other letters) confirms company name.



"Prunted Points" ?


----------



## SODABOB

*prunt*

[pruhnt] 

Noun 1.   A small mass of glass fused to the body of a glass piece.

Origin of prunt:
1890-95; of obscure origin


Related forms:
*prunted, *adjective


----------



## SODABOB

Heřmanova Hut was established in 1907 by the company Carl Stölzle & Sohne and began producing glass in 1910.


----------



## SODABOB

Text and illustration from 1886 Patent Link

(No ModeL) L. BERE'TZ. SODA WATER APPARATUS.


Patented Jan. 12,1886.


I5z V672 foju STATES UNITE YATENT Orricn.


LUDWIG BERETZ, OF VIENNA, AUSTRIA-HUNGARY, ASSIGNOR OF ONE-HALF TO STOLZLES SOHNE, OF SAME PLACE. SODA-WATER APPARATUS


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I *might *have narrowed down your CStS Seltzer bottle to ...

*1905-1906 ... ( At the earliest ? )* 

I have some double checking to do and will let you know what I come up with tomorrow.


----------



## hemihampton

Some of my different Vernor's cans in my Michigan Soda can collection. 23 different Vernor's cans. Do you have all of these Keith? I might have some extras if you need any? LEON.

P.S.  Double click pic to supersize.


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, iggyworf / Rich

It was exactly three months ago today (6-9-16 > 9-9-16) that you started this thread. I just wanna thank you again for starting it. Because of all the twist and turns its taken, I should change my name to "ziggy-zag-bob." I Just hope you don't mind that its @ 38 pages now and still seems like there is no end in sight. There's just so much to digest - a lot of which I've contributed that's hard to swallow. Anyhoo, I just wanted to acknowledge the date and say "Hooray for Vernors"


----------



## iggyworf

Ziggy-Zag-Bob, Thank you. I love that this thread grew so big. There is a lot of info to digest. I sometimes go back a reread parts to try and keep on track. Thanx to everyone else who showed interest and input. Regardless of our final outcome, we are in no way trying to discredit James Vernor. We are just trying to dig up facts and explore Vernors history from the once great city of Detroit Mi.

Leon, those cans are awesome! Thanx Keith for finding us.

(maybe someone should play those numbers in the lottery? 6-9-16 &9-9-16)


Here are 3 more common bottles I got a couple of weeks ago. That I didn't have. The 1st with the #16 on the neck 1963? . 2nd 16 0z stubby 1978. No PL though. 3rd 16 oz diet PL 1988.


----------



## SODABOB

Here is an original U.S. Trademark Document for ...

C. Stolzles Sohne

Filed: November 28, 1905
Registered: August 14, 1906
Number: 55,369

Note: Trademarks are for names, symbols, drawings, etc; and not for specific items such as inventions. Inventions would require a Patent. 

Notice where it says ...

1. Trade-Mark For Glass Bottles And Siphons
2. The trade-mark shown in the accompanying drawing
3. The trade-mark is usually applied to the goods by *etching *it into the glass 

Note: The site where I found this did not include the drawing. I searched for the drawing but have not been able to find it. So I'm not 100% certain if it pertains to the etched marking on the base of Keith's CStS seltzer bottle, although its possible that it does. We'll know for certain if/when the accompanying drawing is ever found. If it does pertain to the etched mark on the base of Keith's bottle, then it suggest the bottle would date to 1905-06 or later. 

(I believe the black stuff is aged Scotch Tape)

 







This snippet is from a magazine called Scientific America and shows the Trademark was renewed on August 14, 1926



Etched mark on base of C.R. Holman / Vernor's Ginger Ale seltzer/siphon bottle


----------



## SODABOB

Or ...

The 1905-06 Trademark document might pertain to this symbol that's on the 1925 invoice I posted earlier. I'm just not sure which of the marks is the one that's referred to in the 1905-06 Trademark document ...


----------



## SODABOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> If anyone can provide us with *officially documented* evidence for "Vernor's Ginger Ale" earlier than 1880 I will send them a free copy of Rick Sweeney's ACL book. And if the individual who finds such a document has already purchased one of Rick's books from me, then I will send their $60 back!
> 
> Note: I reserve the right to determine if such evidence is valid or not, which might include the assistance of other members in determining the date of said evidence.
> 
> Signed ...
> 
> Sodapopbob



The above offer still stands - except now I'm also making it available to ...

 "The first member who post a picture of the "Drawing" that accompanies U.S. Trademark # 55,369"

Note: This offer also applies to the 1905 Austrian Trademark mentioned in the U.S. document.



Footnote: I searched for the drawing for at least three hours but was not able to find it. But it could be out there "somewhere"


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

The Austrian Trademark was ...

"... registered in Austria on the 27th day of October, 1905, under No. 26,206 ... "


----------



## SODABOB

If you enjoy searching for early U.S. Patents and Trademarks, this site offers a huge selection of them. I'm still searching for the #55,369 drawing, but haven't found it yet, and not sure if its even among these listings. Perhaps someone will have better luck than me and find it here or possibly elsewhere ...

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000498155


----------



## SODABOB

I just found this, but still no drawing ...

1906 ~ No. 55,369


----------



## SODABOB

One of the reasons I'm determined to find the Trademark drawing is because it appears that C Stolzes Sohne had two different Trademarks. But I'm not sure which one was register in 1906.

Here's the other one described as ...

[FONT=&amp] A very old example from northern California which is hand blown and has the footed base. Looks to date from the late 1890's to about 1910. On the base it has an etched hot air balloon logo. It reads across the balloon "C. ST. S." Then it also reads below the balloon, with etched lettering which is quite small "Made in Austria / Registered".

[/FONT]



Note: I'm just now beginning a search for the "Hot Air Balloon" mark/trademark


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record ...

Foreign Trademarks 

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q...AE#v=onepage&q=CSTS Balloon Trademark&f=false


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> Some of my different Vernor's cans in my Michigan Soda can collection. 23 different Vernor's cans. Do you have all of these Keith? I might have some extras if you need any? LEON.
> 
> P.S.  Double click pic to supersize.View attachment 174698



Very nice! I probably don't have all of those. Thought you'd enjoy these. I know you have the one Lite N Lemony.


----------



## hemihampton

I like that Swiss Creme. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Using ever attribute I could think of pertaining to your C.R. Holman/Vernor's Ginger Ale seltzer bottle, I did an extensive study that involved the histories of ...

1. Seltzer/Siphon/Syphon/Sifone [Austrian spelling] Bottles
2. Seltzer Bottle Spouts/Tops
3. Glass and Bottle "Etching"
4. Footed Bases vs Rounded Bases
5. C. Stolzles Sohne
6. Etc; etc.

... and my sort-of-educated evaluation for your Holman/Vernor seltzer bottle dates it sometime between about 1890 and 1910, with a slightly more accurate best guess date being ... 

circa 1905-1908


----------



## VernorsGuy

That's amazing information and great to know the date of the seltzer. I was hoping it would help us with the 1866 dilemma. Sounds like it doesn't. The only resource out there that might help is the hand-written recipe book of James Vernor. I'm still trying to get some information about it from the Detroit Historical Museum.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> The only resource out there that might help is the hand-written recipe book of James Vernor. I'm still trying to get some information about it from the Detroit Historical Museum.



Keith

We're looking forward to seeing what you find out about the recipe book. In the meantime I'd like to share this newspaper article I found. In presenting it I fully anticipate that it will be interpreted in different ways by different people, in that some will consider it proof-positive that James Vernor had a full-service soda fountain at his 235 Woodward Avenue location prior to 1880, whereas others, like myself, will take it at its face value without reading anything into it other than it shows James Vernor was in possession of a soda fount that he may or may not have used in his drug store. Please know I am not trying to be obstinate and that I would like nothing more than to be able to determine without a shadow of a doubt ... 

1. If James Vernor did or did not operate a soda fountain at his origional location prior to about 1880?

2. If James Vernor did or did not develop and sell his ginger ale prior to about 1880?

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ July 7, 1867





*... , and to Messrs. Vernor and L'Hommedieu, for the free use of a soda fount ; ...

*


----------



## hemihampton

Anybody see this Vernor's on ebay?  LEON.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VER...V7JyGDGezU17WwCzFKFlY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Anybody see this Vernor's on ebay?  LEON.
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-VER...V7JyGDGezU17WwCzFKFlY%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc




Yes! I've been watching it but did not bid. Notice that bidder *l*****a* placed a bid 15 seconds before it closed and won it.


----------



## hemihampton

He placed his high bid with only 2 seconds left after his 17 second bid got outbid. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Yes. I was bidding on it but it went way to high for my wallet.


----------



## SODABOB

Bottle that sold on eBay today for $113


----------



## SODABOB

I was also watching this Vernor's bottle that I won about 30 minutes ago and was the only bidder @ $9.99. It has June 30, 1906 embossed on it and is the same/similar bottle that Leon posted a picture of on Page 19, Post #188. This is my first Vernor's bottle and I hope its in as good of shape as it appears in the seller's pictures. It will make a nice memento/souvenir for this discussion.


----------



## hemihampton

I think you got a good deal on it Bob. I see that variation a lot less the the Vernor's with out the Statement on back. LEON.

P.S. If this is not Vernor's first bottle then what is?


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Thanks - The shipping was more than the bottle itself @ $16.95 + $9.99 = $26.64

I'll post some pictures of it after it arrives in about a week.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> P.S. If this is not Vernor's first bottle then what is?



Leon

That's the $26.64 question!


----------



## SODABOB

I posted this ad earlier but not sure if its referring to an extract bottle or a carbonated bottle. But it seems highly unlikely to me they would have a 3-cent deposit on an extract bottle. ???

From ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ July 5, *1902 

*(Which would precede any bottle with 1906 embossed on it)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

No way, Jose that a single bottle of pop cost 15-cents in 1902 - The six ouncer's were a nickle at the most!


----------



## SODABOB

But then again ...

*Maybe *​the 15-cent price was for a 28 or 32 ounce bottle of pop. ???


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> That's the $26.64 question!
> 
> View attachment 174752




What's the $26.64 Answer?

P.S. That's way to much for shipping, should be more like $6-8 depending on location.


----------



## hemihampton

A little known soda fact. Pepsi outsold Coke for the first time when they started putting there Pepsi in a 12 oz bottle for a nickel while Cokes 6 oz's was nickel.


----------



## SODABOB

Oh, oh, here I go again. The earliest reference I can find for bottled/carbonated Vernor's Ginger Ale is 1911. But don't hold me to that date just yet because I have a lot more searching to do. As for the 1906 date, I think that refers to the Food & Drug Act and doesn't necessarily mean that's when those bottles were made. 

Hey, Leon

Exactly what does it say on the bottles with the 1906 date?


----------



## SODABOB

Even though this postcard is dated 1912, it could have been produced earlier - but surely after 1896 which is when James Vernor relocated to 33 Woodward Avene. The picture on the front is obviously the 33 Woodward Avenue location, and yet it doesn't mention a thing about carbonated ginger ale, but it does mention the extract. If Vernor's Ginger Ale was being bottled after the relocation in 1896, then I wonder why the postcard doesn't mention it?


----------



## SODABOB

Like I said, don't hold me to the 1911 date just yet - because I just found a for sure date for bottled Vernor's Ginger Ale from ...

1908

... but having a hard time finding it any earlier!


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the 1908 reference ...

Detroit Free Press - September 22, 1908

(And still searching for an earlier date)


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## hemihampton

1908 Close enough for me with the 1906 bottles. Bob, Can't tell you exactly what it sez since I have if boxed up somewhere. I did stumble across my other version with out the statement &  it has a group of small numbers at bottom that could be a date code? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

hemihampton said:


> What's the $26.64 Answer?
> 
> P.S. That's way to much for shipping, should be more like $6-8 depending on location.



Congrats on that bottle Bob! I was watching it as you bid on it. I didn't realize it was that much for shipping. that is high. My bottle like that does not have the embossing on the back side.


----------



## SODABOB

To help answer the $26.64 question, I'd like to start with these regarding the price of Vernor's *extract*



1894 = 25-Cents - Makes 5 Gallons





1896 = And for some reason lowered the price to 15-Cents - Makes 5 Gallons



(More to follow)


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> I posted this ad earlier but not sure if its referring to an extract bottle or a carbonated bottle. But it seems highly unlikely to me they would have a 3-cent deposit on an extract bottle. ???
> 
> From ...
> 
> The Detroit Free Press ~ July 5, *1902
> 
> *(Which would precede any bottle with 1906 embossed on it)
> 
> View attachment 174753



Based on some additional information I've been seeing, I'm about 90% certain now that ads like this one that I posted earlier are referring to extract bottles and not carbonated bottles. However, I'm still searching for more reliable references to confirm it.


----------



## SODABOB

I realize this ad is somewhat vague, but because it says "Popping corks" I find it hard to believe its referring to Vernor's Ginger Ale extract. And, yes, this is the earliest reference I have been able to find so far that even hints at a carbonated version of Vernor's Ginger Ale, but I will continue to search for an earlier reference, if one exist ... ?

Detroit Free Press ~ August 22, 1906


----------



## VernorsGuy

Wow! This conversation added about two more pages since the last time I posted! 

I love the resources you're finding! Great stuff I've never seen before. 

No word on the recipe book yet.

Regarding Vernor and L'Hommedieu loaning out a soda fountain: This would be very consistent with Vernor's throughout their history. I have printed information about Vernor's dispensing units you could rent for a party. I even own one unit that was rented out for Hot Vernor's. (I'm going for the fountain loan as proof of 1866, by the way!)

Regarding 25 cents for extract: This is true. I don't own the bottle, but I have a photo of a very small extract bottle and it says 25 cents. He must have lowered the price to compete with Hires. I'll find the photo and add it to this discussion.

Regarding the postcard of the store at 33 Woodward Avenue: The sign on the building is not the original sign. So, this postcard would have to be much later than 1896. There are Detroit riverfront postcards that show the original sign. (I posted one earlier.) 

Regarding the date of bottled carbonated Vernor's: I had assumed most of the embossed bottles without the Food and Drug Act on the back were earlier bottles. You find more inconsistency of colors, lots of bubbles in the glass, and a wide variation of block lettering size in the non Food and Drug Act bottles. It wasn't long until they moved to paper labels. I think Bob dated the earliest label at 1920.  Even though the bottles were still embossed at the shoulder, they protected the embossing from case wear by indenting the embossed area. I wonder how many years producers were required to have the Food and Drug Act compliance noted on their products? 

Regarding the paper label bottle that just sold on Ebay: Great bottle! The price was very high, but you just don't see many paper label Vernor's bottles. That was in pretty good shape, too. No, I did not buy it. (But, I thought about it!)


----------



## VernorsGuy

This photo is a great one of the 33 Woodward Avenue location. Notice that Woodward is paved in bricks, not a dirt road. There also looks like there's a car among the carriages to the left side. I don't know when Woodward was brick or when that type of car was made, but we're certainly in the 190? era. The Vernor's sign is still the original, but there wouldn't have been a car out front in 1896.


----------



## hemihampton

If I can find my 1906 bottle I'd like to look at it's seam & neck to compare to my Non 1906 statement bottle. I'm going to guess my 1906 statement bottled is what I think they call a Tooled crown top with disappearing seam & whittle marks ect. My non 1906 bottle is a ABM & I'd guess after the 1906 statement bottle but would need to find mine to confirm. Bob would probably get his in the mail before I could dig mine out of hiding. LEON.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Leon-

I'll be very interested to hear your findings. I don't know anything about early bottle styles and how to tell them apart. I'll enjoy the education! I can take some photos of bottles, too, and post them here.

Keith


----------



## VernorsGuy

Here's the 25 cent Vernor's extract bottle.


----------



## iggyworf

That is an excellent bottle!


----------



## VernorsGuy

I agree! Wish it was mine. But, all I have is the photo. It's small, maybe about three to four inches tall.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Now for some embossed bottles:
 

Four of these have the Food and Drug Act embossed on the back. One of the Food and Drug Act bottles has a different wording. Some of the bottoms are embossed and others not.  For some reason I can't get the rest of them to embed in the post. So you'll need to look at the attachments.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Here's an embossed Vernor's bottle from Saginaw Michigan. Bottled by Emil F. Greve.


----------



## hemihampton

That close up pic of top looks like a ABM bottle. Automated Bottle Machine. Do you have any where the seam line disappears before it reaches the top of bottle? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

The Suspense was killing me so I had to find my 1906 bottle. Got good & bad news. Good news is I found it much quicker then I suspected, only 2nd box out of like 30 boxes. Usually what I'm looking for is in last box. Bad news is it's just a ABM which surprised me. I'd guess these bottles date from at least 1906 but how many years did they produce them with that Pure Food 1906 Statement I don't know. 1 year? 5 years? I'd like to see what if any Vernor's has the tooled crown top & non ABM. LEON. 
 P.S. Double click pic to supersize.


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> That close up pic of top looks like a ABM bottle. Automated Bottle Machine. Do you have any where the seam line disappears before it reaches the top of bottle? LEON.



Leon-

I'm a real amateur when it comes to identifying bottles. My close up was of a Food and Drug Act bottle. I'll look at some of my others later tonight and see if there's a difference.

Keith


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## hemihampton

Keith look at my pic below. It will show you the ABM lines to look for. ABM came out in 1903 or 1905. forgot which date, going by memory. But not all bottle switched to ABM at that time. Some used the tooled crown or non ABM for a few years after this date just like they did with the blob after the crown top came out so no definate switch date as it was a slow transition that took years. Look at all your Vernor's bottles for these lines at the top. If any don't have the lines at the top it's probably a older tooled crown top or pre ABM, being older. LEON.




P.S. DOUBLE CLICK PIC TO SUPERSIZE.


----------



## hemihampton

Keith, Here's a pic of my Straight Side Michigan Coke. Notice the side seam lines disappear in neck before they go all the way to top. This is a older tooled crown top pre ABM. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith and Leon

Do any of your early Vernor's soda bottles have a makers mark, words, letters, numbers, symbols, etc. that might identify which glass company made them and when?


----------



## SODABOB

I thought this newspaper article was interesting ...

Detroit Free Press  ~  February 9, *1907*

Notice where it says ...

*"A good portion of my forty years of business life has been devoted to the manufacturer and sale of ginger ale ..."

*Note:  1907 - 40 years = 1867 

(I wonder how many years of 40 years is considered "A good portion" ? / Apparently not all 40 years ? )

Also notice the reference to the "February 30, 1906 Food & Drugs Act" and the "Serial Number 1246"







Compare to this extract bottle that has the Food & Drugs Act label

Note: The same info is on some of the soda bottles, which also have the Serial Number 1246





Leon's Bottle


----------



## hemihampton

Since that was said in erly 1907, early Feb of 1907 you don't count the whole year of 1907. SO, Wouldn't be 1866-1906= 40 years.? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Yes I do have codes or #'s on 2 of my early Vernor's bottles. Hard to see them but here's some pics. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Since that was said in erly 1907, early Feb of 1907 you don't count the whole year of 1907. SO, Wouldn't be 1866-1906= 40 years.? LEON.



Leon

I never doubted that James Vernor opened his first drug store in 1866. But I do wonder what "a good portion" of 41 years amounts to?


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Bob, Yes I do have codes or #'s on 2 of my early Vernor's bottles. Hard to see them but here's some pics. LEON
> 
> .View attachment 174813View attachment 174814View attachment 174815[
> /QUOTE]
> 
> All three bottles were made by The Graham Glass Company
> 
> ( I'm currently double-checking the rest of the coding )


----------



## SODABOB

And made at the Graham Glass Company plant located in Evansville, Indiana in ...

1. 1925
2. 1925
3. 1923  ?


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Can you decifer my codes #'s? They are 1143E G25    6.   The other one is# 1143E  G23.  What do they mean? Is there a date in there any where. I don't see a bottle makers mark, just sez Vernors Ginger Ale on the bottoms. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I'm a little  late, just now seen your 2 post above mine. LEON.


P.S. Note both of the 2 bottles with the codes did not have 1906 statement. My Bottle with the 1906 statement was blank along bottom edge & bottom. I assume it's the older version? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Are you saying the "1906 Statement" bottle does or does not have a code? If so, what is the code?


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## hemihampton

It Does not have any codes. Sorry for any confusion. LEON.


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## hemihampton

Here's a 12 oz. tooled crown top early Ginger Ale bottle from early 1900's I have (& from Research I think it's from Grand Rapids Michigan area) that has cool embossing on it. Sez Return for 5 cent deposit. Being a 12 oz'er it might of cost 10 cents full.  Thought Bob might like this bottle pic. ALSO, If Vernor's lowered there extract price it might of been to compete with competition like the BRYANT's Root Beer extract which was extremely popular in Detroit in same time Period. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Nice bottle(s) - I can't wait to receive my one and only example, that shipped yesterday.


Based on what I know about the 1906 "Pure Food & Drugs Act" the statement was likely on bottles and paper labels no later than about 1913-1914, when it was amended.


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## hemihampton

OK, So does that mean they would date from 1906-1913-14?  LEON.


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## SODABOB

Yes, 1906 at the earliest and 1914 at the latest.

Does the "Statement Bottle" have the contents embossed on it?


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## hemihampton

Both my bottles with codes & no 1906 statement do say 10 fluid ounces on back. my other one with no codes & does have 1906 statement does not list any contents. as far as I know from collecting Beer bottle labels many years ago the oz's or contents amount was not required to be added on labels till around 1913. LEON.


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## SODABOB

The 1913 "Gould Amendment" to the 1906 Pure Food & Drug Act required that all food and drug containers have the contents (Fluid Ounces / Weight / Etc.) clearly marked on all bottles/labels/etc. There was a grace period until 1914 when the amendment started to be enforced. However, if certain embossed bottles had paper labels, then it was not required that the bottle itself have the contents amount on it, but the paper label did. Do you know if the 1906 statement-bottles originally had paper labels? If not, then they almost certainly date between 1906 and 1914.


----------



## hemihampton

If your asking about the Vernors bottle I have no Idea. I'd guess not. I got many prepro beer bottles with labels that come in both embossed brewery names & some with out & most have the 1906 Statement & some have the oz's on label & some dont, some have all 3. Pic below. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Thinking about it if the 1906 statement bottle were to have labels then most likely it would not be embossed on bottle but printed on label instead, if it did have one. since embossed on bottle I would guess never had a label. If no label & no contents embossed along with the 1906 statement must predate 1913. LEON.


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## hemihampton

2 Beer Bottles with the 1906 statement.


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## SODABOB

I just discovered that the use of "Serial Numbers" in connection with the 1906 Pure Food & Drug Act are...


Pre 1914

The Serial Number on the 1906 statement-bottle is *1246 *but I'm not sure yet what it stands for, except that I've seen it on other food products labels, but not on drug product labels.


----------



## hemihampton

They'd have to be if stopped or amended in 1914 wouldn't they? LEON.


P.S. Do you mean #1206 instead 1246, my Vernors sez #1206.


----------



## hemihampton

My Vernors 1906 back. LEON.


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## hemihampton

I looked at Vernors guy 1906 statement bottle again & the one looks like it could of been Serial # 1246? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

This is a picture you posted in a 2012 thread ...

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?547225-Early-VERNOR-S-crown-top/page3


----------



## hemihampton

Interesting, I forgot about that post & thread. SO, I guess that's another variation I need, Plus the other 1906 Statement version Keith posted & I thought years ago I seen another version where statement was there along bottom not running up back side but lower bottom back side. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

My bottle arrived today, and after closely examining all of its attributes, I'm assigning it a date of ...

*circa 1907 **at the earliest

circa 1912 at the latest 

*Later today I will post some pictures and explain how I came up with those date. By the way, the bottle is in near mint to mint condition!


----------



## hemihampton

sounds nicer then mine, i should of outbid you LOL. Is yours ABM I assume. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Here are some of the attributes I used to date my bottle ...

1. ABM / Machine Made
2. Owens Suction Scar on Base ( But no makers mark or date codes)
3. Ghost Seam on One Side ( Evidence of being Machine Made) 
4. Micro Bubbles in Glass

5. With the best evidence being this claim ...

[FONT=&amp]*The Pure Food and Drugs Act of 1906* (effective January 1, 1907):

  The _Pure Food and Drugs Act of 1906 _imposed regulations on the labeling of products containing alcohol, morphine, opium, cocaine, heroin, alpha or beta eucaine, chloroform, _Cannabis indica_, chloral hydrate, or acetanilide.  It required that products containing any of those substances be labeled with the substance and quantity on the label.  Use of the word "cure" for most medicines was nominally prohibited, though there were little teeth in the law and enforcement was rare.  However, the word "cure" began to be replaced by "remedy" and other terms about this time, though "cure" was still used at least up to the passage of the next discussed law in 1912 the Sherley Amendment.

​[/FONT][FONT=&amp]NOTE: From implementation of the above Act (1907) until the early to mid 1910s, virtually all patent medicines were required to meet the requirements of the law and be labeled with the following notation - 

"_This product guaranteed under the Pure Food and Drugs Act, June 30th, 1906._"  

Thus, labeled bottles with this notation do not date prior to 1907 and appear to not date after - or much after - the passage of the following act in 1912.

​[/FONT][FONT=&amp]*The Sherley Amendment* to the _Pure Food and Drugs Act_ (1912):  

The _Pure Food & Drugs Act_ was considerably strengthened with passage of the Sherley Amendment in 1912.  According the Food & Drug Administration website - _Congress enacts the Sherley Amendment to prohibit the labeling of medicines with false therapeutic claims intended to defraud the purchaser, a standard difficult to prove. _ The use of the word "cure" was largely curtailed and this is for all intents and purposes the end date for patent medicine bottles for human use that are embossed (or labeled) with "cure."  However, enforcement was still not complete and some use of the term most likely did occur after 1912-1913, although not likely embossed on bottles after this point.  One of the first patent medicine producers to be prosecuted in 1913 was _William Radam's Microbe Killer_ whose bottles claimed boldly to "Cure All Diseases."  The company lost their case and the Microbe Killer - and most other "cures" - faded quickly from the market. 

Thus ...

*Circa 1907 .. to .. Circa 1912 

*Note:  What appears to be blemishes in the glass are camera bloopers. The bottle is in near-mint condition. 

( Triple-click to enlarge )






Notice the Owens Suction Scar = Large, offset, hairline circle on base.



Ghost Seams = Two hairline seams side-by-side between arrows



​[/FONT]


----------



## hemihampton

Same bottom I have on mine. Are you happy with your Purchase & Price? What I want to know is What if any Vernor's carbonated soda bottle came before this one? Not counting the extract bottles. Anybody know? I'd like to see one pre ABM or tooled crown top.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Being as I rarely purchase soda bottles anymore (having just sold the majority of my 500+ bottle collection), I'm very happy with the Vernor's bottle and was prepared to go as high as $50 if necessary.

As for the earliest non-extract Vernor's bottle, I'm actually leaning toward the possibility that 1906-1907 might be the earliest. And not because I might have just purchased one, but because I can't find any solid evidence for an earlier example - but plan to keep searching and see what I can find.


----------



## SODABOB

Here's an example of a "Ghost Seam" I found on the Internet. Ghost Seams are not uncommon on Machine Made bottles. Google has detailed explanations for it, as well as definitions for the term "Owens Suction Scars." 

The term "Owens Suction Scar" doesn't necessarily mean it was made by The Owens Glass Company - It just means that it was made by an Owens bottle machine, that different glass companies used during the early years of Machine bottle making (circa 1905 to circa 1920).


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

We may never know the exact date for my bottle, and others like it, but its possible they actually date to 1907-1908. The 1912 date is merely what I think is a "latest" date. I say this primarily because of the 1906 statement embossed on the bottle. It seems to me that anyone who went to the lengths to have that put on their product likely used it when it was first introduced in 1906-1907. To tell you the truth, I have never seen that statement embossed on any other soda bottle. Has anyone else ever seen the statement on a soda bottle?


----------



## SODABOB

Coca Cola used the same statement in many of their early ads - with this one being from 1907. But I have never seen the statement embossed on a Coca Cola bottle - although there may be examples I'm not aware of. 

Notice the different serial number ...

Coca Cola Serial # 3324

Vernor's Serial # 1246


----------



## SODABOB

I just did a brief search of Coca Cola ads and it appears they stopped using the 1906 Statement around 1909 - But I need to do a more thorough search and fine tune it.


----------



## hemihampton

That statement or similar statement is common on early Michigan beer bottles with labels & Embossing & some surrounding areas like Ohio & a couple of other nearby states possibly but not other states. Why is it more popular on Michigan Beverages? I don't know. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

The answer to your question(s) might be found in this online copy of the 1906 Food & Drug Act. Its a 1914 supplement and contains 857 pages and is searchable if you full-screen it. I'm reading through it myself as time allows. Check it out ...

Its what I call a 'page-turner' if you click and hold to turn the page. It can also be enlarged by using the (+)

https://archive.org/details/fooddrugsactjune00unit




Footnote:

If you use the [Search Inside] feature, you need to be patient while waiting for the results. Sometimes it takes a full minute for the results to appear. But trust me, they will appear and its not your computer. I love these types of 'books' and have read many different ones.


----------



## hemihampton

The beers have a similar statement I'm not sure if it's the same as the 1906 act. I was told it's different & came out earlier? LEON.

P.S. Not my bottle, Credit goes to Bruce.


----------



## SODABOB

Does the following information mean that the slogan ...


"_This product guaranteed under the Pure Food and Drugs Act, June 30th, 1906._" 


... was only used in 1907 and 1908, and possibly early 1909?




[FONT=&amp]Manufacturers or wholesalers could label their drugs or foods with a guarantee that the article complied with the law, exempting the retailer from prosecution under the 1906 act. The original version of the guarantee stated, "Guaranteed under the Food and Drugs Act, June 30, 1906." However, some manufacturers advertised the guarantee as a government endorsement. A revised guarantee in December 1908 read ...

"Guaranteed by [name of guarantor] under the Food and Drugs Act, June 30, 1906." [/FONT]


The St. Louis Star  ~  St. Louis, Missouri  ~ September 29, 1912

(Save and zoom to read entire article)



Part of particular interest


----------



## SODABOB

In other words ...

If the December 1908 Amendment does mean the original slogan was only used between 1907 and early 1909, then it *might *narrow down the Vernor's Statement-bottles to ...
*
Circa 1907 ... to ... Circa 1909


*


----------



## VernorsGuy

I knew I had a couple embossed Vernor's bottles with wired stoppers. It's possible they're fantasy pieces, but I've seen enough of them that I think they're real. (Maybe not the porcelain stopper.) 

My assumption was the wire stoppers were the original bottles with the crowns following. However, even my own logic doesn't make sense when the embossing says "crown cork". 

Now that I've been educated on ABM bottles, my additional hope was these wired bottles were not ABM. You can study the photos attached, but my untrained eye says they're ABM. 

So, my question to the bottle experts out there is: what are these? Fakes? Rube Goldberg models? Vernor getting creative? Or, from a 2016 perspective, someone using old Vernor's bottles to make their own home brew?


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Unfortunately, ceramic and rubber stoppers only date the stopper/closure itself and not the bottles they are attached to. Based on what I know about them, those types of closures were primarily used on after market bottles to temporarily seal in the carbonation for later consumption. However, that doesn't mean there was never a pre-machine Vernor's soda bottle. Most accounts claim the first bottle machines were made by Michael Owens in 1903 and became readily available by 1905, with 1905 generally being the launch-year for modern bottle manufacturing. 

Which brings us to this newspaper ad from ...

The Detroit Free Press  ~  June 18, *1904* 

Notice it list Hire's extract as well as Hire's carbonated, with two different prices. And even though the Vernor's portion of the ad doesn't use the word carbonated, because it list two different choices, I'm assuming the one for $1.65 per dozen is referring to carbonatd bottles and not extract bottles, which are listed separately. So, because of the dates (Owens Bottle Machines 1905) / (Vernor's Carbonated Bottles 1904) its highly possible there exist a (BIM) (Blown In a Mold) Vernor's soda bottle. That is, of course, if the ad is indeed referring to a carbonated version of Vernor's Ginger Ale. ???



Footnote: There are tons of Vernor's Ginger Ale ads between 1900 and 1910 that use the word "bottles," but determining which are extract bottles and which are carbonated bottles is a real challenge.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

However, even if 1904 or earlier Vernor's Ginger Ale (carbonated) bottles exist, it doesn't necessarily mean they were fully embossed. It could be they were plain, generic bottles that had a paper label. So at this juncture, I think it wise to conduct a close examination of Vernor's paper labels and see what's what!


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of paper labels ...

Notice in the 1904 ad I posted earlier that it also mentions "Arcadian Ginger Ale." The attached Arcadian bottle doesn't say ginger ale, but notice at the bottom of the paper label where it has the Food & Drug Act statement. Especially notice the statement has the name "Waukesha Springs Co." inserted within the statement. The name insertion likely occurred after the Act was amended in December of 1908. 

 



Footnote:

The main reason I'm posting this particular bottle is to illustrate there various ways of approximately dating bottles other than by makers marks, codes, etc.


----------



## SODABOB

In search of ...

A 1904 (or earlier) Vernor's Ginger Ale (carbonated) bottle and/or paper label ...

(I'm confident they exist!)  :flag:


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> View attachment 174864View attachment 174865View attachment 174866View attachment 174867I knew I had a couple embossed Vernor's bottles with wired stoppers. It's possible they're fantasy pieces, but I've seen enough of them that I think they're real. (Maybe not the porcelain stopper.)
> 
> My assumption was the wire stoppers were the original bottles with the crowns following. However, even my own logic doesn't make sense when the embossing says "crown cork".
> 
> Now that I've been educated on ABM bottles, my additional hope was these wired bottles were not ABM. You can study the photos attached, but my untrained eye says they're ABM.
> 
> So, my question to the bottle experts out there is: what are these? Fakes? Rube Goldberg models? Vernor getting creative? Or, from a 2016 perspective, someone using old Vernor's bottles to make their own home brew?





Since Vernor's also sold this in a extract I would not be surprised if people just reused these bottle using the extract. When I found 300 bottles under a Detroit house 2 years ago they all dated around 1915-late20's & many of those bottles had these same wire lightning stoppers from them using the bottles to brew there own home brew during prohibition. People with soda extracts might of did the same thing. Plus like you said, the statement on bottom of front of bottle sez it used a red crown cap. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> In search of ...
> 
> A 1904 (or earlier) Vernor's Ginger Ale (carbonated) bottle and/or paper label ...
> 
> (I'm confident they exist!)  :flag:





I'd like to see one also. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I don't know when this photo was taken, but I don't think the label depicted on the wagon and the patented 1911 paper label are the same label. (We've seen the VGA symbol on the left)


----------



## hemihampton

With the horse pulling wagon looks like it could be late 1890's? early 1900's? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Team of Horses / Wagon / Bottles / Isadore Barnett 

The Detroit Free Press  ~  July 18, 1907



I wonder if the driver in this picture is Isadore Barnett?


----------



## SODABOB

New Delivery Wagons - Appears similar to Vernor's wagon

Detroit Free Press ~ December 6, 1906


----------



## SODABOB

Detroit Free Press ~ June 3, 1906


----------



## VernorsGuy

I think I may have found the non-ABM bottle and discovered an easy identification method. I took out my earliest paper label bottles again for another look. I posted photos of two of them previously, but I also have a third (and in my opinion, poor, with most of the label missing) example of the early paper label bottle. I knew the embossing was different between the bottles.

My first attachment shows the three bottles together. The second photo is the back of each. You can't see it, but the full bottle has the same embossing as the middle one. The bottle on the left only has embossing on the bottom of the bottle. The third photo is what that looks like. 

The fourth and fifth photos are the top of that bottle. Again, I'm no bottle expert. But, from what I've learned during this discussion, this looks like the seam ends and there has been a totally different top applied. In fact, even the quality of the glass looks very different.

So, I rummaged through some of my other bottles that I remember having the same embossed bottom and found a code on one that wasn't on the paper label. That's the sixth photo. I'm hoping that means something to some of you. There is no paper label left at all on this bottle, but the bottom embossing leads me to believe it's the early paper label. The top isn't quite as obviously different as the other bottle, but it does look like the seam ends. That's the seventh photo.

Seems like the bottom embossing shown in the third photo is a good an easy way to find those early bottles. I know I've passed them up in the past because that's the only place it has Vernor's and I liked the side embossing better. Until today, I didn't realize those were the earliest Vernor's bottles. 

The last photo is the correct "crown cork in red" crown. That original full paper label bottle has the red crown. The one I'm holding is almost always available on EBay. 

The second to last photo is just for fun. It's a delivery tag attached to a wood crate. What I find most interesting is it says the delivery method is DUR, which means Detroit Urban Railroad - the streetcars!


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Fantastic! 

This will require some studying/researching, but the bottom line could be older "reused" bottles with newer paper labels. The C.G. CO. needs narrowing down because it could apply to about a half-dozen different glass factories.


----------



## hemihampton

Yes, I think you might have something with that different bottom embossing, it's plain looking with no monogram compared to the 3 I have. That 7th pic looks like it could be a older non ABM which would be very Interesting if it is. Hard to see on the other top pics. I'm sure Bob would know what the C&C means. THANKS, LEON.


P.S. Looks like the one with other color top could possible been a repaired replaced top?


----------



## SODABOB

Take your pick ... 



C.G.Co…………….This mark was evidently used by four (or more) different glass companies. _Mos_t bottles with this mark along the lower heel are believed to be products of the Coshocton Glass Company, Coshocton, OH (1902-1923),  a prolific manufacturer of beer & soda bottles distributed widely but especially throughout the midwest. Other _possibilities_ include Canton Glass Company, Canton, OH (1883-1890) & Marion, Indiana (1890-1958) [See Canton]; and Cohansey Glass Manufacturing Company, Bridgeton, NJ (c.1870-1900). ALSO, please see the two following entries!

C.G.Co…………….California Glass Company, California, Pennsylvania (c.1890s). Harvey Teal, a researcher and historian on South Carolina history, (author of a published book on the SC Dispensary flasks) reports that he has documents proving that some of the dispensary flasks dating from the c.1893-1897 period marked “C.G.CO.” were definitely made by California Glass, although Phillip Kenneth Huggins (_The South Carolina Dispensary_-1997), attributed the marking to the Carolina Glass Company, Columbia, SC (1902-1913). Apparently, _both_ glass companies made the dispensary bottles AND used a C.G.CO. mark for a time on them.

C.G.Co.(on “POLAR BEAR” pattern glass bread tray) …………..believed to be Crystal Glass Company, Bridgeport, Ohio (1883-1907). This particular Crystal Glass Company was started in c.1868 at Pittsburgh, and later moved to Bridgeport. The C.G.Co. initials which are known on the bread tray from approximately 1885 (and may be on other items in the “Polar Bear” pattern as well) were attributed to Crystal Glass Co. by Ruth Webb Lee in her groundbreaking reference work “Early American Pressed Glass” (1931 and later editions) from a personal conversation she had with an elderly knowledgable Pittsburgh-area glassblower. Crystal Glass Company made mostly pressed glass tableware items (usually classed under “Early American Pattern Glass”, known to collectors as simply EAPG) and was not a producer of blown commercial containers, so this mark is virtually certain to be UNRELATED to the “C.G.Co.” seen commonly on beer bottles.


----------



## SODABOB

My initial pick is ...

_Most bottles with this mark along the lower heel are believed to be products of the Coshocton Glass Company, Coshocton, OH (1902-1923), a prolific manufacturer of beer & soda bottles distributed widely but especially throughout the midwest._


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I'm a little confused - Does the bottle with C.G. CO. on the heel have Vernor's on the base? And if it does, can you please post a picture of the entire bottle and explain again about the mold seam on the side. 

Thanks


----------



## SODABOB

History of the Coshocton Glass Company w/pictures of heel marks ...

https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/CoshoctonGlass.pdf

C.G. CO. mark





Keith's bottle


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## VernorsGuy

Attached are photos all of the same bottle. It's the one with the code. It has no label left on it. It's hard to take photos of the seam disappearing. It looks like it stops about 3/4 inch before the bottom lip of the top. Much easier to see in person, tough through a phone camera!


----------



## SODABOB

Kieth 

Mucho Gracias'

This is from the Coshocton Glass Company history I posted a link to. Notice what it says about the C.G.CO. marks that have double digit numbers associated with them. Which means your bottle could have been made by the *Cohansey Glass Company *and not Coshocton Glass ...

( Your Vernor's bottle has a double-digit 14 - 3 )

Our study of the C.G.CO. logo (see the Cohansey Glass Co.section) concluded that both the Cohansey Glass Co. and theCoshocton Glass Co. made beer and soda bottles embossed with theC.G.CO. mark. Typically, however, most of the bottles with theCohansey logos were used by breweries and bottlers in or nearPhiladelphia. The vast majority of bottles marked “C.G.CO.” usedin the Southern states and elsewhere were made by the CohanseyGlass Co. The “C.G.CO.” logos fell into four patterns:

1. C.G.CO. on the heel with no accompanying numbers
2. C.G.CO. on the heel, followed by a two- or three-digit number
3. C.G.CO. on the heel (usually reverse heel) with a three-digit number on the base
4. C.G.CO., followed by a two- or three-digit number (or no number), all on the baseBottles with heel logos followed by numbers (#2 in the above list) were apparently onlymade by the Cohansey Glass Co. (Figure 1). 

The remaining bottles – with CGCO heelmarks andno numbers; heelmarks and base codes; or basemarks of all kinds (with or without numbers) –were made by the Coshocton Glass Co. (Figures 2 & 3). Apparently, only Coshoctonmanufactured Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola bottles. As noted above, our full study was reported inthe Cohansey Glass Co. section.


----------



## SODABOB

And here's the link to the Cohansey Glass Company history. Which is very detailed and will require some close reading to make sense of it ...

( I have only scrolled through it so far )

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/Cohansey.pdf


----------



## SODABOB

This is from the Cohansey Glass Company history link ...


Patterns:

 It is thus clear that both soda and beer bottle logos fall into the same fourconfigurations:

1. C.G.CO., with no accompanying numbers

2. C.G.CO., followed by a two- or three-digit number

3. C.G.CO. on the heel (usually back) with a three-digit number on the base

4. C.G.CO., followed by a two- or three-digit number (or no number), all on the base

"We have only discovered three glass houses that fit all four characteristics:" 

Carolina Glass Co. (1902-1910)

Cohansey Glass Co. (1900-1909)

Coshocton Glass Co. (1902-ca. 1915)

Footnote:

If Keith's bottle was made by one of these companies, then we have a date range between 1900 and 1915. (Coshocton Glass didn't start using bottle machines until about 1915)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If Keith's bottle was made by the Cohansey Glass Co. (1900-1909), then determining when (if ever) they started using bottle machines should help narrow the date down even more.


----------



## hemihampton

More info on tooled top crown top. Click link below & scroll down. LEON.


https://sha.org/bottle/finishes.htm#Molded & Tooled finish


----------



## SODABOB

According to the following, the Cohansey Glass Company never used bottle machines and all of their bottles were hand blown. Apparently they ceased operation in 1909 ...

"Trouble was eminent in 1909. In February and March, the glass works were only running two furnaces, but did not closedown as had been rumored. A hundred men and boys were without work for several months. In June, the glass worksclosed down for the summer as usual. In September, the glass works did not resume operations. The start was delayedto October 1st and then to November 1st. The delay wasn’t caused by a lack of orders as the company had enough ordersto keep the factory running steadily until the next spring.During this time of shutdown, several meetings were held between the workers and the firm. The matter was discussed,but a reply failed to be given. Many of the men left town for work in other plants. This was the first seriousunemployment that had occurred at the glass works.Finally in late November of 1909, the official announcement came by the head of the Cohansey Glass Works. The plantwould not run that year and the factory would be boarded up indefinitely. This was sad news for the town. Manymerchants lost hundreds of dollars, having trusted the glass blowers to pay as soon as the plant opened. The men hadbeen leaving town for weeks and there was a clearing out, many going to Bridgeton, New Jersey where there were largeglass works. During December, the apprentices, who had been learning glass blowing, were summoned to the office,paid off and given their paper as journeymen, being advised to look for work elsewhere.One of the biggest bottle contracts by a patent medicine firm, which for nine years were made at the Downingtown plant,had been transferred to Salem, New Jersey, and the men who worked on the medicine bottles had left Downingtown andothers followed.Why Did the Plant Close?Simply put, the work could be done cheaper in New Jersey. Material for the glass was cheaper and closed-at-hand,whereas they had difficulty in securing raw material (sand) at Downingtown in the quantity desired.Michael J. Owens invented a bottle-making machine which revolutionized the bottle making industry. By 1909, he haddeveloped a ten-arm machine, capable of producing more bottles per day with less workers."


----------



## SODABOB

If ...

Keith's bottle was made by the Cohansey Glass Company, then it appears to me it was most likely made sometime between ...


1900 and 1909


----------



## SODABOB

This is from earlier and is slightly edited for a better understanding of what's being said ... 

Note: The key terms are "Heel" vs "Base" as to where certain marks are located.

1. C.G.CO. on the heel with no accompanying numbers.
2. C.G.CO. on the ​heel, followed by a two-or-three-digit number.
3. C.G.CO. on the heel (usually reverse heel) with a three-digit number on the base.
4. C.G.CO., followed by a two-or-three-digit number (or no number), all on the base. 

Bottles with heel logos followed by numbers (#2 in the above list) were apparently only made by the Cohansey Glass Co.


----------



## hemihampton

BUT, We are not sure what Co. manufatured the bottle, to much speculation & what if's? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Here's Bill Lockhart's email address ... bottlebill@tularosa.net

Bill is a leading member of the Bottle Research Group (BRG), and with the help of other members, did the research and wrote the Coshocton and Cohansey Glass Company histories, not to mention numerous other bottle articles. I recommend contacting him about your Vernor's bottle and see what he has to say about it. Be sure to attach some pictures, especially a close up of the C.G.CO. mark. Bill is a great guy who I have communicated with many times over the years and I'm sure he would find your bottle to be of interest. And don't be shy - let him know you're the Vernors Guy. I think he will get a kick out of that and bend over backwards to help date your bottle as close to accurate as anyone I know can. But please be patient about hearing back from him. He is retired now and does a lot of traveling. If you contact him, please let us know what he has to say.


----------



## VernorsGuy

A few odd topics:

1. Thanks for the lead on a C.G. CO. bottle expert. That will be interesting information. I will follow-up with the group when I hear back. 
2. I have attached a photo of an extract bottle that I don't own. I think this may have been for sale on Ebay many years ago. I love the "Detroit's Drink" logo on it. I believe "Detroit's Drink" was used later than the era we're concerned with - like around 1920. 




3. I have started re-reading this entire post from the beginning. I've made it to page 21 so far! However, after having all this new information in my head, I can't help but think the 1911 trademark application was misinterpreted.

Two articles doubting Vernor's age were quoted earlier in this post. 

One said "Indeed, a trademark for "Vernor's" was not even applied for until 1911, at which time James Vernor claimed that the ginger ale entered commerce in 1880—not 1865." 

Another said "His ginger ale entered commerce in 1880, according to a 1911 application for a federal trademark on “Vernor’s” as a name for ginger ale and ginger ale extract."

Both of those quotes are inaccurate. What James Vernor _really_ said in the trademark application was "The trademark has been continuously used in my business since about January 1, 1880." He says nothing about when he started making ginger ale. The application also says "trademark shown in the accompanying drawing". So, he's only talking about his trademark being used, not extract or ginger ale being made. The "drawings" were actual labels for extract and the earliest paper label for carbonated ginger ale - which was probably not 1880 vintage. 

I still believe Vernor made ginger ale, and probably other flavors, at his drug store for many years before he figured out that would be his money maker. Once he figured that out, sometime around 1880, it became Vernor's Ginger Ale. 

True, still no absolute proof. But, I don't think the trademark application saying 1880 is proof of anything either, except that he took 31 years to apply for it. If the application proves anything, it proves Vernor started using his trademark "Vernor's Ginger Ale" (or "Vernor's Ginger Ale Extract"). It says nothing about when he started making the extract. 

Still hoping the recipe book the Detroit Historical Museum has will give us some proof.

Keith


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## hemihampton

"I still believe Vernor made ginger ale, and probably other flavors, at his drug store for many years before he figured out that would be his money maker. Once he figured that out, sometime around 1880, it became Vernor's Ginger Ale. 

True, still no absolute proof. But, I don't think the trademark application saying 1880 is proof of anything either, except that he took 31 years to apply for it. If the application proves anything, it proves Vernor started using his trademark "Vernor's Ginger Ale" (or "Vernor's Ginger Ale Extract"). It says nothing about when he started making the extract"



I agree with this statement above. I kinda said that same thing earlier. LEON.


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## SODABOB

I'm still trying to identify and possibly date the C.G. Co. bottle and during the course of my search have found hundreds of bottles with that mark. As it turns out, they are actually quite common. And yet, there are mixed opinions as to who the mark(s) belonged to and when they were made. The general consensus boils down to either Coshocton Glass or Cohansey Glass, but no one seems to know for sure. So what I'm doing is focusing on a single brand whose bottles bare that mark and see what I can find. The brand I'm referring to is The Grand Rapids Brewing Company of Grand Rapids, Michigan. I selected that particular brand because it was located in Michigan and in operation between about 1892 and 1920, which fits nicely with the Vernor's bottling era. Anyway, not all of the Grand Rapids Brewing bottles are marked with C.G. CO., but there appears to be enough of them to conduct a worthwhile search. I'm hoping if I can find some common denominator between Grand Rapids Brewing and Vernor's Ginger Ale that I might be able to find a more definitive answer regarding the who, what, when, and where for the C.G. CO. mark. I'll let you know if/when I find anything.


----------



## iggyworf

"I still believe Vernor made ginger ale, and  probably other flavors, at his drug store for many years before he  figured out that would be his money maker. Once he figured that out,  sometime around 1880, it became Vernor's Ginger Ale. 

True, still no absolute proof. But, I don't think  the trademark application saying 1880 is proof of anything either,  except that he took 31 years to apply for it. If the application proves  anything, it proves Vernor started using his trademark "Vernor's Ginger  Ale" (or "Vernor's Ginger Ale Extract"). It says nothing about when he  started making the extract"

Great work Kieth and everyone else. These statements sound very plausible to me also. When I have time I am also going back to reread everything in this thread.


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## SODABOB

P.S.

This Grand Rapids Brewing Co. paper label was described as being original and still adhered to an original bottle that is marked on the heel with C.G. CO. Barely visible in the lower right corner of the label is Michigan Litho Co. Grand Rapids. I did a search for the lithographing company and discovered they began operation in 1901. Because beer bottles were typically not returned/recycled, there's a pretty good chance the bottle dates to about 1901 at the earliest. Anyway, these are the type of clues I'm working with, and hopefully will find more, that will eventually lead to some manageable dates (maybe).


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, Keith

Here's a little curve-ball for you (and for me). This amber Coca Cola bottle was described as being marked on the base with ...

*C.G. CO. - 14
*
Does that mark ring a bell?

Note: I'm still looking for an actual picture of the mark on one of these bottles for 100% confirmation. As it stands now I'm taking the seller's word for it - with no reason to doubt him at this time. He also described it as being from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and said it was blown and tooled.


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## SODABOB

I'm putting a great deal of faith into this ad in that its referring to "carbonated/bottled" Vernor's Ginger Ale for $1.65 per dozen. Even though I might be assuming this, I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy twelve bottles of extract, especially when you take into account that a typical bottle of extract made five-gallons of ready to drink beverage. Not to mention it list Vernor's extract separately. Anyhoo, this is still the earliest reference I can find that even hints at carbonated/bottled Vernor's Ginger Ale. If anyone has or finds an earlier reference, please share it with us. I'm using clues like this in an attempt to date Keith's C.G. CO. bottle.  

Detroit Free Press ~ June 18, 1904


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## SODABOB

Keith

Question:  Do you have any information that says with certainty if there was ever a refund/rebate allowed for Vernor's extract bottles? 

I have seen tons of references about Vernor's Ginger Ale refunds/rebates for bottles, but for the life of me I can't figure out if they're talking about extract bottles or carbonated bottles!


----------



## SODABOB

For example, how do you interpret this ad?

Note: 

The 15-cent price sounds high for a carbonated bottle, which typically sold for a nickle at the time - that is unless its referring to a quart size bottle. If for an extract bottle, then they did offer rebates for the return of extract bottles. But if for a carbonated bottle, then this is now the earliest date I can find for carbonated/bottled Vernor's Ginger Ale. 

Extract or Carbonated - which is it referring to? 

Detroit Free Press ~ July 5, 1902


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## hemihampton

I got hundreds of Michigan soda's & beers from early 1900's in crown tops & I'm sure I got a few with the CG Co. but most of them boxed up as I only got shelf room for a few hundred blob tops & pre 1900 bottles. I did find this Detroit Brewing co tooled crown top with the CG Co. but with the Guaranteed by (Company name) wouldn't that date it a little later then we are looking for. LEON.


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## SODABOB

Hey, Leon

You just made my day! I've been looking for one of those boogers! And, yes, the basic guarantee statement would date to 1907 at the earliest - with the amended [Name Here] statement dating to 1909 or later. But it at least confirms the C.G. CO. mark on a *Detroit *bottle, which is good news. However, we still don't know for sure which glass company its for. Your bottle appears to have some additional numbers or letters to the right of the C.G. CO. mark. What are they? Knowing what those additional marks are could help to better identify and date the bottle.


----------



## VernorsGuy

I just happened to find this very different version of an embossed quart Food & Drug Act bottle when looking for something else. It's the only one I have embossed like this. But, thought I'd throw it out there just for fun. No CG CO markings and the seam goes all the way to the top. So, a little later era bottle than we're talking about right now.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

You said "No C.G. CO. markings," but what about other types of markings, symbols, numbers, letters, etc, on the base or heel?


----------



## VernorsGuy

I have good news and bad news!

The good news - amazing news - is I found something that's probably the proof we're looking for about Vernor making sodas in his pharmacy. 

The bad news is it's a photocopy and not dated.

Two photos are attached. (The top and bottom of the same piece.)  At the bottom it says James Vernor Pharmacist and Florist.

Exciting discovery! But still doesn't have the detail - a date - that we need.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith
> 
> You said "No C.G. CO. markings," but what about other types of markings, symbols, numbers, letters, etc, on the base or heel?



There's large 5 at the base of the bottle on the opposite side of the embossing. No other markings. No embossing on the bottom of the bottle.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith
> 
> Question:  Do you have any information that says with certainty if there was ever a refund/rebate allowed for Vernor's extract bottles?
> 
> I have seen tons of references about Vernor's Ginger Ale refunds/rebates for bottles, but for the life of me I can't figure out if they're talking about extract bottles or carbonated bottles!



You're identifying all my assumptions! I have rebate cards. Due to the era, 1930's, I assumed it was carbonated bottles. The two extract bottles I have don't say "return for rebate", but neither do any of the early carbonated bottles. I have a couple of business card size rebate cards that I though were stuck in the six pack holder to identify the money for return.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Because your last bottle is machine made, the 5 is likely a mold number or something along those lines. Michael Owens came out with a 10 mold machine around 1909, and it could be from one of those. Speaking of Owens machines, does there happen to be an "Owens Suction Scar" on the very bottom/base? The "scar" looks something like a hairline circle found on the very bottom of the bottle, and almost the same diameter as the base itself. 

(I'll comment on your document at a later date)


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> I'm putting a great deal of faith into this ad in that its referring to "carbonated/bottled" Vernor's Ginger Ale for $1.65 per dozen. Even though I might be assuming this, I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy twelve bottles of extract, especially when you take into account that a typical bottle of extract made five-gallons of ready to drink beverage. Not to mention it list Vernor's extract separately. Anyhoo, this is still the earliest reference I can find that even hints at carbonated/bottled Vernor's Ginger Ale. If anyone has or finds an earlier reference, please share it with us. I'm using clues like this in an attempt to date Keith's C.G. CO. bottle.
> 
> Detroit Free Press ~ June 18, 1904
> 
> View attachment 174944



I agree that the separate line for Vernor's extract means he thought we all knew the $1.65 was for a dozen carbonated bottles. However, five cents times 12 bottles is only 60 cents. It must have been 12 quart bottles, which would make sense because that was a standard number of bottles for a quart case.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> I agree that the separate line for Vernor's extract means he thought we all knew the $1.65 was for a dozen carbonated bottles. However, five cents times 12 bottles is only 60 cents. It must have been 12 quart bottles, which would make sense because that was a standard number of bottles for a quart case.



Okie, dokie, great! I agree 100%. (Sort of). Because if it is indeed referring to "Quart" bottles, then that means there are *1904* quart-size Vernor's Ginger Ale bottles out there, which I'm hoping are "*embossed*"


----------



## SODABOB

But how do you tell the difference between a 1904 quart-size bottle from a 1911 quart-size bottle? Remember, not all glass factories adopted bottle machines right away (1903-1905). Some didn't switch until much later. In other words, just because a bottle is BIM bottle doesn't necessarily date it - only approximately, such as circa this-or-that!


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Okie, dokie, great! I agree 100%. (Sort of). Because if it is indeed referring to "Quart" bottles, then that means there are *1904* quart-size Vernor's Ginger Ale bottles out there, which I'm hoping are "*embossed*"



All three early paper label bottles I posted earlier were quarts(ish). The one label says 1 pint 8 ounces. So, 26 ounces, not a full 32 ounce quart. The C.G. CO bottle is also 26 ounces.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I'm still leaning toward your C.G. CO. bottle as being the earliest bottle you've posted so far. It might even have been made in 1904. That's why I'm so obsessed with it. I just need the missing-link to connect it with circa 1904, or earlier.


----------



## hemihampton

You might like this Bob, I got another Detroit Beer bottle that has the CG Co. on it. It's a tooled crown top not ABM. It's from Idependant Brewing co. Independant first came out in 1907.  I wish it was older. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Great! But what about the accompanying marks that follow the C.G. CO. mark? Those marks might be key clues to dating other bottles like Keith's C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Somebody's got to ask this - so I guess I will ...

I wonder if the 3 on Keith's C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle stands for 1903?


----------



## hemihampton

The #'s on the Detroit Brewing bottle are # 640  B.  The Independant #'s are 590 or S90. Can you decifer them? LEON.


P.S.  The Independant is embossed with no paper label.


----------



## hemihampton

Sorry for delay in responding. Watching a Crime Mystery on TV. Responding during commercials.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

This is the best I can come up with at the moment about deciphering the codes you posted ...




SODABOB said:


> This is from earlier and is slightly edited for a better understanding of what's being said ...
> 
> Note: The key terms are "Heel" vs "Base" as to where certain marks are located.
> 
> 1. C.G.CO. on the heel with no accompanying numbers.
> 2. C.G.CO. on the ​heel, followed by a two-or-three-digit number.
> 3. C.G.CO. on the heel (usually reverse heel) with a three-digit number on the base.
> 4. C.G.CO., followed by a two-or-three-digit number (or no number), all on the base.
> 
> Bottles with heel logos followed by numbers (#2 in the above list) were apparently only made by the Cohansey Glass Co.


----------



## SODABOB

And this ... 



SODABOB said:


> If ...
> 
> [Leon's] bottles were made by the Cohansey Glass Company, then it appears to me they were most likely made sometime between ...
> 
> 
> 1900 and 1909


----------



## hemihampton

Seems like a nearby Ohio bottle manufacture like Coshocton would be more likely then New Jersey?


----------



## SODABOB

Food for thought copy/pasted from my Post #486 ... 

(Which originated from the BRG / Bill Lockhart article)

(Slightly edited) 

Bottles with C.G. CO. heelmarks and *no numbers*; heelmarks *or* base codes; *or* basemarks of any kind (with or without numbers) – were made by the Coshocton Glass Company.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Question:

Do any of your C.G. CO. bottles have any numbers, letters, etc; on the *base*?


----------



## hemihampton

SO, Since mine has #'s on heel bill sez not possible to be Coscocton. I'm no expert so I can't dispute or disagree. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> Question:
> 
> Do any of your C.G. CO. bottles have any numbers, letters, etc; on the *base*?




The Detroit Brewing bottle does have a faint Registered on bottom or base & the Independant has nothing, blank, zero, nada. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

The Cohansey Glass Company we are talking about was in Downingtown, *Pennsylvania *and not in New Jersey. Based on the following history (that I posted earlier), they transferred all their work to Salem, New Jersey in 1909




SODABOB said:


> According to the following, the Cohansey Glass Company never used bottle machines and all of their bottles were hand blown. Apparently they ceased operation in 1909 ...
> 
> "Trouble was eminent in 1909. In February and March, the glass works were only running two furnaces, but did not close down as had been rumored. A hundred men and boys were without work for several months. In June, the glass works closed down for the summer as usual. In September, the glass works did not resume operations. The start was delayed to October 1st and then to November 1st. The delay wasn’t caused by a lack of orders as the company had enough orders to keep the factory running steadily until the next spring.During this time of shutdown, several meetings were held between the workers and the firm. The matter was discussed,but a reply failed to be given. Many of the men left town for work in other plants. This was the first serious unemployment that had occurred at the glass works. Finally in late November of 1909, the official announcement came by the head of the Cohansey Glass Works. The plant would not run that year and the factory would be boarded up indefinitely. This was sad news for the town. Many merchants lost hundreds of dollars, having trusted the glass blowers to pay as soon as the plant opened. The men had been leaving town for weeks and there was a clearing out, many going to Bridgeton, New Jersey where there were large glass works. During December, the apprentices, who had been learning glass blowing, were summoned to the office,paid off and given their paper as journeymen, being advised to look for work elsewhere.One of the biggest bottle contracts by a patent medicine firm, which for nine years were made at the Downingtown plant, had been transferred to Salem, New Jersey, and the men who worked on the medicine bottles had left Downingtown and others followed.Why Did the Plant Close? Simply put, the work could be done cheaper in New Jersey. Material for the glass was cheaper and closed-at-hand,whereas they had difficulty in securing raw material (sand) at Downingtown in the quantity desired. Michael J. Owens invented a bottle-making machine which revolutionized the bottle making industry. By 1909, he haddeveloped a ten-arm machine, capable of producing more bottles per day with less workers."


----------



## hemihampton

OK, I didn't read all that. So, which on of the 4 above did Coshocton make? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I'm sure if I went thru my boxes I can find more examples. I'd like to find one I know was from 1904 or before because either the brewery closed or changed it's name at that time but not sure what that would prove. What if Vernors used 2 or 3 different bottle makers. One that used the ABM crown tops much sooner then another Co. that still used the old tooled crown top technology to long. You'd assume the tooled non ABM must be the older bottle that came first but it's very possible maybe it's not. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> SO, Since mine has #'s on heel bill sez not possible to be Coscocton.  LEON.



Yes, that's the way I understand what Bill is saying. Which is the same as saying your bottles were made by Cohansey Glass (Downingtown, Pennsylvania)


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

I realize there's a lot to digest here - I'm having a challenge with a lot of it myself. So as not to get any more confused than what things appear to be right now, I'm going to try and laser-focus on Keith's C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle and use every clue I can muster up and try and date it within about two years. I'm already leaning toward it being pre 1905. Now I just need that little boost of a clue to confirm it. Your information has certainly helped the cause.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> OK, I didn't read all that. So, which on of the 4 above did Coshocton make? LEON.



1., 3., and 4.

Apparently 2. only applies to Cohansey Glass


----------



## hemihampton

OK, Thanks. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> I just happened to find this very different version of an embossed quart Food & Drug Act bottle when looking for something else. It's the only one I have embossed like this. But, thought I'd throw it out there just for fun. No CG CO markings and the seam goes all the way to the top. So, a little later era bottle than we're talking about right now.




I think thats the other variation I said I seen before. But I thought the pure food thing was along bottom back, it could of been the front, don't remember as it was many years ago. But I'd say thats not a very common bottle, Only 2nd one I seen & the other one I seen might of been a smaller 10 or 12 oz. version. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

By the way ...

It wasn't just Bill Lockhart who did the research on the Coshocton Glass and Cohansey Glass bottles. It was a collective effort by the entire Bottle Research Group (BRG). I know Carol Serr personally, (she lives in the San Diego area) and she is one of the most tenacious researchers I have ever met. That gal comes up with stuff that others didn't know even exist. The BRG may not get it right all of the time, but there is no bottle group I know of who digs deeper for facts than they do. Once they all retire, it will be a sad day for wanna' be researchers like myself.


----------



## hemihampton

hemihampton said:


> BUT, We are not sure what Co. manufatured the bottle, to much speculation & what if's? LEON.




Nevermind, I guess we are, Cohansey. My Mistake.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Although not 100% conclusive, I think there is enough evidence pointing to the Cohansey Glass Company to at least warrant a closer look at them as a possible candidate for who made Keith's C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle. I might come to a fork in the road later that requires reevaluating things, but for the time being I'm taking the Cohansey path and see where it leads. Which hopefully doesn't turn into a dead-end.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

I forgot to mention there are about 1,000 results for the Cohansey Glass Company in the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to. Eee-gads, I hope I don't have to open and read every one of them! If that occurs, I'll retire myself. Oh, wait! I'm already retired! So I guess I have no excuse and just need to get with it no matter what the outcome might be.


----------



## hemihampton

OK, Good luck on your journey. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks

And to think I have only scratched the surface of the approximately 5,000 listing for Vernor's Ginger Ale!


----------



## SODABOB

Keith = Does your Vernor's bottle marked with C.G. CO. 14-3 have a 'period' at the end of the mark? 

Leon = Do any of your Michigan beer bottles marked with C.G. CO. have a 'period' at the end of the mark?


The following is copy/pasted from the Cohansey Glass Company article by the BRG ... 

"Although generally not recorded by the sources, in our own photos and those from eBay, the numbers after the heelmarks were all followed by a period. This suggests that the bottles were made by the same manufacturer."


----------



## SODABOB

For future reference ...

Heelmark on Keith's Vernor's Ginger Ale bottle ...


----------



## SODABOB

*A. Trombley ~ Hutchinson Bottle ~ Bay City, Michigan



*

Described as ...

Heel =  Embossed with C.G. CO.
Base = Blank (No Marks)

Note: Bay City is about 150 miles north of Detroit.

I only did enough research on the bottler to establish that he was in operation during the late 1800s and early 1900s. I do not know the exact start date nor the end date for the bottler. The main reasons I'm focusing on this particular bottle is because ...

1. It confirms there are Hutchinson bottles marked with C.G. CO. (One of many different brands).

2. It confirms there were C.G. CO. Hutchinson bottles distributed in the state of Michigan.

With my main observations being ...

1. Even though I don't know for certain which glass company made this bottle, because there's a possibility it was made by the Cohansey Glass Company of Downingtown, Pennsylvania, I thought it was worth taking a looking at. 

2. If it was made by Cohansey Glass, and Keith's Vernor's bottle was also made by Cohansey Glass, then it suggest that James Vernor had the option of using a Hutchinson bottle for his first carbonated bottled ginger ale. In fact, if Vernor had wanted to use a Hutchinson bottle, he could easily have had them produced by any number of glass houses who made Hutchinson bottles, and not just by Cohansey. 

With my main points of emphasis being ...

1. As far as we know, there are no Hutchinson bottles embossed with James Vernor or Vernor's Ginger Ale.

2. Which leads me to suspect that James Vernor's first carbonated bottle was a Crown-top-closure bottle. 

3. And that Keith's C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle could very well be Vernor's first carbonated bottle. 

(Maybe)


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

Earliest possible date for Hutchinson bottles ...


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, Keith

Do any of your Vernor's *extract *​bottles have makers marks, symbols, codes, letters, numbers, etc; on them?


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Keith

I know its a lot to ask for you to make a list of every Vernor's extract bottle you have that has embossed codes on them, but such a list could prove helpful in narrowing down certain dates for certain bottles, and might even shed some more light on your C.G. CO. 14-3 bottle. That is, of course, if any of the extract bottles are even marked. ???


----------



## VernorsGuy

I'll take a look at my extract bottles tonight. I have about six or seven of them. So, not a big chore. I wish I had more of them, but they're tough to come by. I'll also look at the James Vernor Druggist bottles. One of them looks just like the early extracts. 

I'll also get the C.G.CO bottle out again and see if there's a period. My untrained eye thinks that paper label bottle with the tooled top looks earlier. I attached a photo again. It's just so poorly done - even the diameter looks slightly bigger than the neck of the bottle - it makes me think it was an earlier era. But, maybe just not as good of a bottlesmith!

I've been going through a lot of Vernor's paperwork I've collected over the years. Attached is another photocopy of a James Vernor Pharmacist piece about soda water. He doesn't mention ginger ale, just fruit syrups. There's no denying he's making sodas. But, no date! There's also no florist mentioned. It could mean nothing, but it could mean this was before he added flowers to the business. In the piece I posted last night he said "pharmacist and florist".


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, I got 4 McBride Detroit Hutch's that has the CG Co. on it. Pic below. I know I've dug these in early 1900's dumps. I don't think these go back to 1880's but there is a different McBride that might. I'm sure I got more if I look. First 2 have a #594  A   after the CG & the next 2 nave no #'s. No Periods after the #'s on any of my bottles. I did notice the Font & Size is different on some of them. Some have a taller longer square or block letters while some are smaller rounder letters. The different font or size or shape hints to me a possibly differren
t Company, or maybe changed throught out the years. That list of 4 companies you had with & with out #'s would mean they are different co's? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

For some reason this site will now only let me post 1 picture at a time. whats wrong with this site? Here's another pic. LEON


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith = Does your Vernor's bottle marked with C.G. CO. 14-3 have a 'period' at the end of the mark?
> 
> Leon = Do any of your Michigan beer bottles marked with C.G. CO. have a 'period' at the end of the mark?
> 
> 
> The following is copy/pasted from the Cohansey Glass Company article by the BRG ...
> 
> "Although generally not recorded by the sources, in our own photos and those from eBay, the numbers after the heelmarks were all followed by a period. This suggests that the bottles were made by the same manufacturer."



No period. I've also attached a new photo. I'm sure the code is 14-B, not 14-3. That's an imperfection in the glass after the B, not a period.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Hey, Keith
> 
> Do any of your Vernor's *extract *​bottles have makers marks, symbols, codes, letters, numbers, etc; on them?



I just checked them and, unfortunately, no there are no marks of any kind.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I found the attached photo and want to know what it is. Do you think this is what the bottle washing process looked like? Those look like suds in the bottle. It could be a bottle filler. But, that seems like way too much carbonation fizz with no liquid ginger ale yet.


----------



## SODABOB

I can't explain what looks like soap suds in the bottle, but the apparatus itself looks like some type of siphon head. The attached patent is the closest thing I could find along those lines. 99.9% of the siphon heads I looked at have a push lever for dispensing the liquid, whereas the Vernor bottle example and the attached patent are the only two I could find that had a faucet with a turn-handle. According to the text on this particular patent, it described the head as containing pressurized gas to maintain the flow. This patent also has a clamp feature for securing the head to a bottle. I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that such a device as the Vernor example was intended to be used for a single bottle of soda pop, which would normally be consumed by drinking from the bottle itself. That is, unless it was intended as a bar type bottle for dispensing a blast of Vernor's or other types of carbonated pop into a highball drink. I don't think the devise is related to bottle washing. Not when you take into account they had machines that could wash 100+ bottles at a time. 

This patent is called a closure, but the text describes it as a dispenser with pressurized gas. Like I said, this is the only one I could find that had a faucet instead of a lever. It also has the snap-on clamp.

1930


----------



## SODABOB

Long story short ...

After rereading the Cohansey and the Coshocton Glass Company histories and using every piece of evidence available to me, I have arrived at the sort-of-educated opinion that Keith's C.G. CO 14-B Vernor's bottle was produced by ...

*The Coshocton Glass Company - Coshocton, Ohio - In operation between 1902 and 1921

*Please note this is just my personal observation and that a more advanced study will be required for confirmation. I'm also leaning toward the possibility that the number 14 might very well stand for 1914. Plus, it wouldn't surprise me if the 'B' stands for 'Beverage.'  According to the BRG article, the Coshocton Glass Company converted to semi-automatic bottle machines around 1915-1917, which would account for a 1914 bottle being BIM and tooled. Again, I can't say for certain, but because the bottle in question is a quart-type, I'm thinking it might have been Vernor's first carbonated bottle of that particular size and that the smaller, 1906 Drug Act bottles were made earlier and precede the C.G. CO. bottle(s). Anyhoo, that's my interpretation and I will remain open minded in the event that a confirmed or better explanation is presented.


----------



## SODABOB

I'd like to take this opportunity to explain that when I say something like ...

"This is the earliest reference *I can find*"

... that I mean just that and do not intend for such declarations to be 100% conclusive or definitive. I try my best not to have an agenda when doing research, which means I let the results *I find *speak for themselves whether they fit into the scheme of things or not. So, please know that from this point forward I will not try and justify or prove anything *I find *and just present the results as *I find *them whether they are accurate or not. I will leave it to the discretion of others to determine if they think any information *I find *is true or not. 

Hence ...

The earliest (time period) reference *I can find* that refers to James Vernor as a florist is *​1881*


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

In the event I find an earlier reference on any given topic, I will be sure and post those as well. And should anyone else find something to clarify or refute something I find, I will humbly stand corrected and say as much if/when such a reference is found. This isn't about me being right - its about searching for and hopefully finding facts if they exist to better our understanding and appreciation pertaining to the hobby of soda bottle collecting and soda bottle related topics.


----------



## SODABOB

Question:

Without having to reread this entire thread, does anyone recall off the top of their head when James Vernor's 219 Woodward Avenue address changed to 235 Woodard Avenue? Or was James Vernor's original drug store address always 235 Woodward Avenue?


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> Question:
> 
> Without having to reread this entire thread, does anyone recall off the top of their head when James Vernor's 219 Woodward Avenue address changed to 235 Woodard Avenue? Or was James Vernor's original drug store address always 235 Woodward Avenue?



In answer to my own question, I came up with ...

*About 1870

*​I'll explain later where I came up with that date.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> In the event I find an earlier reference on any given topic, I will be sure and post those as well. And should anyone else find something to clarify or refute something I find, I will humbly stand corrected and say as much if/when such a reference is found. This isn't about me being right - its about searching for and hopefully finding facts if they exist to better our understanding and appreciation pertaining to the hobby of soda bottle collecting and soda bottle related topics.



That's a good way to put it. I agree totally.


----------



## hemihampton

I have a Question. When did Vernor's start useing that Monogram or fancy design they have? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Here's where I found the circa 1870 address change ...

Detroit Directory ~ 1869-1870 ~ 219 Woodward Avenue




Detroit Directory ~ 1871-1872 ~ 235 Woodward Avenue


----------



## SODABOB

Which means, anything with the 235 Woodward Avenue address would date circa 1870-71 or later, to about circa 1896-97 when Vernor relocated to 33 Woodward Avenue.


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the earliest reference I can find that list James Vernor as a florist ...

The Chronicle ~ University of Michigan Periodical ~ Published June 30, 1881


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I thought you might like these in particular. This first one must have been a pretty big deal because of the detail it goes into describing the floral arrangement. It was even displayed in James Vernor's window ...

Detroit Free Press ~ May 1, 1884



And check out this one about a new floral delivery wagon ...

Detroit Free Press ~ May 10, 1885


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> I have a Question. When did Vernor's start useing that Monogram or fancy design they have? LEON.



Not sure if I can pinpoint the exact year. But, attached is a photo of an invoice from 1900 that doesn't have the design. Then, we know the bottles referencing the Food and Drug Act of 1906 had the design. The design is a V G A (for Vernor's Ginger Ale) superimposed on one another.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith
> 
> Question:  Do you have any information that says with certainty if there was ever a refund/rebate allowed for Vernor's extract bottles?
> 
> I have seen tons of references about Vernor's Ginger Ale refunds/rebates for bottles, but for the life of me I can't figure out if they're talking about extract bottles or carbonated bottles!



The front and back of a rebate card is attached. If you look at the codes on the back of the card it says "50M 5-29". On other Vernor's printed pieces that would mean 50,000 printed in May of 1929.


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> Not sure if I can pinpoint the exact year. But, attached is a photo of an invoice from 1900 that doesn't have the design. Then, we know the bottles referencing the Food and Drug Act of 1906 had the design. The design is a V G A (for Vernor's Ginger Ale) superimposed on one another.




Well, to me that's good Interesting info. Because your first Vernor's bottle does not have the Monogram on bottom of bottle (or anywhere else) while the 1906 & after bottles have the mongram on bottle, some on front, some on bottom, some on both front & bottom. I think the no monogram bottle might help prove it predates the 1906 monogram bottle?  Opinions? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

When Vernors relocated to 33 Woodward in 1896 or 7 it was supposable so they could concentrate on there Vernors full time & opened a bottling department at that location at same time. If they did open a bottling plant there in 1896, shouldn't there first bottle be from 1896? And if so where or what is it? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

The other day I saw this identical invoice/letterhead dated 1897, but I did not save a picture of it. I'll see if I can find it again. Notice ...

*The Siphon Bottle ...

*


----------



## SODABOB

I especially like dated material like that found on this link ...

The Pharmaceutical Era ~ April 9, 1896

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...e&q=Vernor's ginger ale bottling 1896&f=false


The only bummer is, it isn't clear whether they're referring to the extract or the carbonated version.

This image from the article got chopped off, but its the best I can do with this type of file ...


----------



## SODABOB

Next question ...

Is it even remotely possible that Vernor's first carbonated and bottled ginger ale was sold in a *siphon bottles*?


----------



## hemihampton

Sounds like the bottling department was used for mass production. I don't think Siphon bottles were ever mass produced. Who used Siphon bottles? Hotels/Motels, Restuarants, Train Cars, Boats, ect. LEON..


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Sounds like the bottling department was used for mass production. I don't think Siphon bottles were ever mass produced. Who used Siphon bottles? Hotels/Motels, Restuarants, Train Cars, Boats, ect. LEON..



Leon

I should have been more specific in the way I worded my question. The point of emphasis I was trying to make and draw attention to is the fact that the 1900 invoice/letterhead that Keith posted shows a siphon bottle but not a soda bottle. I realize the invoice itself could have been printed earlier than 1900, but even if it was, why does it show a soda fountain 'outfit' and a 'siphon bottle' but no soda bottle?


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

In other words ...

It would be helpful to determine, if possible, when that type of invoice was first used? The stamped date does not tell us that. Maybe Keith knows.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S. 

I just discovered the invoice has 33 Woodward Ave on the left side of the ribbon below the name Vernor's - look close! So I'm thinking the earliest date that particular invoice could have been used is 1896. Right?

View attachment 175006


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S. ~ P.S.

I know we're all on the same page in that we're trying to determine when Vernor's first soda pop bottle was produced. I acknowledge that! I'm just trying to point out that the first fully prepared and 'bottled' version of the ginger ale, no matter who it was intended for or who used it, *might *have been a siphon bottle - and that the siphon bottle *might *have led to the soda bottle.


----------



## andy volkerts

After reading the gazillion pages of this thread, I believe Sodabob may be correct in assuming Vernors was first put up in Siphon style bottles. Would be nice if a Seltzer bottle collector had one of those siphon bottles. I do not think we will ever know for sure what kind of bottle Vernors started out with,but, it could well have been a siphon bottle sold from there Fountains, reusable and probably sold with a deposit on them ...Andy


----------



## SODABOB

For Andy ...




VernorsGuy said:


> Hopefully these photos will help. Here is the bottom of the Vernor's by Holman seltzer:
> 
> View attachment 174681
> 
> Those are the only markings. No markings on the spicket.
> 
> View attachment 174682
> 
> I also have have this one - sorry for driving all you bottle collectors crazy with this stuff - this is one of my prize pieces:
> 
> View attachment 174683
> 
> No manufacturer markings at all. The spicket says "Vernor Detroit Mich". Here are more photos attached. Any help with dates is very much appreciated.


----------



## SODABOB

And this one, too ...



VernorsGuy said:


> Bob or others with your amazing resources-
> 
> Do you have any dates or information on C.R. Holman? This Vernor's seltzer/syphon says "Vernor's Ginger Ale sold by C.R. Holman".
> 
> Not even sure if this is Detroit or somewhere else.
> 
> Syphons in this style began in 1830 - but never changed much. Maybe Holman's era will help us date Vernor's.
> 
> View attachment 174648


----------



## andy volkerts

Didn't Vernors start around 1880 sometime, I forget the date is somewhere in this thread, anyhow it gave them quite a long time to develop there sales of Ginger ale in Siphons or soda bottles, in any case the product would have been sold originally from there soda fountains wouldn't one think??......Andy


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> I should have been more specific in the way I worded my question. The point of emphasis I was trying to make and draw attention to is the fact that the 1900 invoice/letterhead that Keith posted shows a siphon bottle but not a soda bottle. I realize the invoice itself could have been printed earlier than 1900, but even if it was, why does it show a soda fountain 'outfit' and a 'siphon bottle' but no soda bottle?



Good Question, I'd like to see another Invoice or Ad or anything similar from early 1900 with a soda bottle, not extract or siphon. Bob, What do you think about that Early Vernors bottle Keith has with Vernors on bottom but no Monogram? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> The other day I saw this identical invoice/letterhead dated 1897, but I did not save a picture of it. I'll see if I can find it again. Notice ...
> 
> *The Siphon Bottle ...
> 
> *View attachment 174997





This one Bob? Looks like it might say Siphon right on receipt?


----------



## hemihampton

1928 Receipt, Front & back.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

We know these three bottles were made by the Graham Glass Company in the 1920s, and that at least one of them apparently has the VGA on the base. Please post pictures of the entire bottles and/or describe how they are embossed in the portions we cannot see in these pictures. And do all of them have the VGA on the base? 

The thing is, because one or all of them have VGA on the base, and they are from the 1920s, that tells us the VGA symbol was used fairly late. Whereas what appear to be earlier? bottles, like some of the examples that Keith posted, apparently don't have the VGA symbol. In other words, its starting to look as if the VGA bottles are later and that the Non-VGA bottles are earlier.  




hemihampton said:


> Bob, Yes I do have codes or #'s on 2 of my early Vernor's bottles. Hard to see them but here's some pics. LEON.View attachment 174813View attachment 174814View attachment 174815


----------



## hemihampton

So, Your saying my bottle with Monogram & no #'s & the 1906 statement is from 1920's & graham glass. How do you know? you did say all 3? I'd like to know when Keiths bottle was made, The one with tooled crown top & no Monogram or insignia or what ever you wanta call it on bottom. It had this plain bottom & I think a paper label still intact. Pic below. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder:

The Food & Drug Act bottles with VGA embossed on the front (like the one I recently purchased) cannot date any earlier than 1906-1907


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> We know these three bottles were made by the Graham Glass Company in the 1920s, and that at least one of them apparently has the VGA on the base. Please post pictures of the entire bottles and/or describe how they are embossed in the portions we cannot see in these pictures. And do all of them have the VGA on the base?
> 
> The thing is, because one or all of them have VGA on the base, and they are from the 1920s, that tells us the VGA symbol was used fairly late. Whereas what appear to be earlier? bottles, like some of the examples that Keith posted, apparently don't have the VGA symbol. In other words, its starting to look as if the VGA bottles are later and that the Non-VGA bottles are earlier.





Only the 2 without the 1906 statement have the Vernors monogram on base or bottom as I call it. The 1906 statement bottle has nothing on bottom bottom. Al 3 have the monogram of front face of bottle but only the 2 later bottles have it on bottom. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Do you remember this from earlier about your Graham bottles? All of your bottles have the EG


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Reminder:
> 
> The Food & Drug Act bottles with VGA embossed on the front (like the one I recently purchased) cannot date any earlier than 1906-1907



But you said mine was a 1920's graham bottle didn't you?


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> We know these three bottles were made by the Graham Glass Company in the 1920s, and that at least one of them apparently has the VGA on the base. Please post pictures of the entire bottles and/or describe how they are embossed in the portions we cannot see in these pictures. And do all of them have the VGA on the base?
> 
> The thing is, because one or all of them have VGA on the base, and they are from the 1920s, that tells us the VGA symbol was used fairly late. Whereas what appear to be earlier? bottles, like some of the examples that Keith posted, apparently don't have the VGA symbol. In other words, its starting to look as if the VGA bottles are later and that the Non-VGA bottles are earlier.




This whole comment above has me confused, what are you talking about? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, I think you messed up when you said this comment above you said "We know these 3 bottles" when you should of said these 2 bottles. By saying this you kept adding or including my older 1906 non graham & non 1920's bottle with the other 2 later bottles confusing me. ????????????  LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> hemihampton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob, Yes I do have codes or #'s on 2 of my early Vernor's bottles. Hard to see them but here's some pics. LEON
> 
> .View attachment 174813View attachment 174814View attachment 174815[
> /QUOTE]
> 
> All three bottles were made by The Graham Glass Company
> 
> ( I'm currently double-checking the rest of the coding )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I see our confusion. I said 2 bottles had codes but posted 3 different pics so you said all 3 1920's Grahams because you seen 3 pics thinking 3 different bottles. They were not 3 different bottles. Only 2 different bottles. I posted the same bottle twice because it's letters were extremely faint & hard to see. LEON.
Click to expand...


----------



## SODABOB

10-4

Let me try this again ...

1. I'm not saying every bottle with the VGA monogram was made in the 1920s. I'm still trying to determine when the VGA monogram was first introduced.

2. I am saying that any bottle marked with EG 25 was made by the Graham Glass Company in 1925.

3. I am saying that any bottle with the Food & Drug Act statement cannot date any earlier than 1906-1907


----------



## hemihampton

OK,  I agree. What I'm saying is since the 1906 statement bottle is at least 1906 or 7 & does have the monogram & this monogram lasted into the 1920's Wouldn't this make Keiths tooled top no 1906 statement & no monogram earlier then 1906. I think it has a label with no monogram.? LEON.



P.S. my 3 pics instead of 2 DeReailed the whole conversation. sorry about that.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> OK,  I agree. What I'm saying is since the 1906 statement bottle is at least 1906 or 7 & does have the monogram & this monogram lasted into the 1920's Wouldn't this make Keiths tooled top no 1906 statement & no monogram earlier then 1906. I think it has a label with no monogram.? LEON.



Yes! At this juncture I do think Keith's Non-VGA bottle is earlier than the Food & Drug bottles. But just how much earlier, I can't say at the moment - and not sure we'll ever know unless we can solve the C.G. CO. marks.


----------



## hemihampton

OK, Let me know when you solve it. THANKS, LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I/we may never be able to determine *exactly *when Keith's Non-VGA / C.G. CO. bottle was made, but I'll bet a nickle it was sometime between 1900 and 1906


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> I/we may never be able to determine *exactly *when Keith's Non-VGA / C.G. CO. bottle was made, but I'll bet a nickle it was sometime between 1900 and 1906




Which is another way of saying ...
*
circa 1903 *(Allowing a three year lea-way on either side)


----------



## SODABOB

I'm betting all of my nickles on there being a connection between ...

This bottle ... 

(Keith's C.G. CO. Non-VGA)


 



And this 1904 advertisement ...


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> I/we may never be able to determine *exactly *when Keith's Non-VGA / C.G. CO. bottle was made, but I'll bet a nickle it was sometime between 1900 and 1906





I'll bet a dime.  leon.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> I thought this newspaper article was interesting ...
> 
> Detroit Free Press  ~  February 9, *1907*
> 
> Notice where it says ...
> 
> *"A good portion of my forty years of business life has been devoted to the manufacturer and sale of ginger ale ..."
> 
> *Note:  1907 - 40 years = 1867
> 
> (I wonder how many years of 40 years is considered "A good portion" ? / Apparently not all 40 years ? )
> 
> Also notice the reference to the "February 30, 1906 Food & Drugs Act" and the "Serial Number 1246"
> 
> View attachment 174808
> 
> View attachment 174809
> 
> View attachment 174810
> 
> Compare to this extract bottle that has the Food & Drugs Act label
> 
> Note: The same info is on some of the soda bottles, which also have the Serial Number 1246
> 
> View attachment 174811
> 
> View attachment 174812
> 
> Leon's Bottle
> 
> View attachment 174817



Somehow I missed this the first time around. I'm going through a much more thorough re-read of every post and am up to page 43. This letter from James Vernor is incredible. My interpretation of "*A good portion of my forty years of business life has been devoted to the manufacturer and sale of ginger ale" *is the fact he was a pharmacist. He wasn't a ginger ale maker by trade. He made and sold prescriptions. In fact, other articles quote him as saying the ginger ale took too much time away from the druggist business. Then, he must have not been making enough money as a druggist so he became a florist, too. I think he was successful with ginger ale in spite of himself. It doesn't seem like it was his first love. So, for 40 years he made ginger ale but it was not his main passion all those years. If 100% of his 40 years was devoted to ginger ale, he would not have been a pharmacist and florist. 

Of course I'm biased. But, this is the best evidence yet. You owe yourself a book, Bob!


----------



## hemihampton

I don't think he got serious with the Ginger Ale until he moved into his new building in 1896. 1866-1896 = 30 years. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Why the 2 different Serial #'s on these bottles?


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record ...

I have decided to give up the search for "Vernor's Ginger Ale" prior to 1880. The reason for this is because I have already devoted untold hours to the search and have come up empty handed. If James Vernor was involved with the production and sale of ginger ale prior to 1880, I cannot find what I consider a credible reference to support it. I acknowledge that just about every history ever written on the subject claims otherwise, but as things stand now, I disagree with those accounts. This does not mean I'm closed minded to the possibility of a date earlier than 1880, it just means I would have to see some form of documentation that was actually published between 1866 and 1879 in order for me to be convinced. Please note I am not referring to documentation that just hints at James Vernor's possible involvement with ginger ale prior to 1880, I would actually have to see the words "J S Vernor / James Vernor / Alderman Vernor / Etc" used in the same sentence with "Ginger Ale" to accept it as fact. And if such a document were ever to surface, it would have to of been published at the time of occurrence and not some later account such as the histories I mentioned. Therefore, I would rather not involve myself with any more debates or discussions on the subject, but will look forward to the day if/when it can be proven that Vernor's Ginger Ale has roots that extend beyond 1880, and possibly even as early as 1866.   

However ...

This doesn't mean I'm giving up on the bottles! I look forward to devoting every resource at my disposal in an attempt to correctly identify and date as many Vernor's Ginger Ale soda bottles as I possibly can. I also look forward to the comradery that I anticipate will come from forum members in a collective effort to search for those oh so mysterious but amazing Vernor's Ginger Ale soda bottles.

Respectfully,

Sodabob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I thought I'd post this newspaper snippet one more time with the declaration that it is the *earliest* time period reference *I can find *that uses the words "Vernor" and "Ginger Ale" in the same sentence, paragraph, or time period account of any type ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ *June 28, 1884

*


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Thanks for your time & many hours of research devoted to the subject. Much Appreciated. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Thank you from myself also. Bob you have done a great job in all your research. And thanx to Kieth and Leon and anyone else for their input as well!


----------



## VernorsGuy

I'll echo the accolades! Thanks, Bob! You came up with some resources I've never seen before. This was fun and a great learning experience. I appreciate everyone's input and your bottle expertise. 

I'm not done, though. I've exhausted anything I have in my collection. But, I still plan on getting my hands on James Vernor's hand written recipe book that the Detroit Historical Museum has. I also want to find the original sources for the two soda water letters/articles I posted written by James Vernor. I'm guessing they were newspaper ads and I'm hoping the opposite side is dated. 

As I find things, I will post them here for everyone. Please do the same if you find something. Happy collecting!


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, guys ... but like I said, I'm still going to try and find and date as many early Vernor's Ginger Ale soda bottles as I can. And possibly even determine what was the very first bottle they ever used. We've seen the following before, but I wanted to focus on it again for a minute to see if anything jumps out at us that we might have missed earlier. Its the original trademark document that was registered on August 15, 1911. 

Notice ... 

1. That it list ginger ale and ginger ale extract separately. Which is no major revelation in itself, but it at least tells us there was a distinction between the two in an official sense and that one refers to prepared ginger ale and one refers to the extract. 

Especially notice ...

2. In the cropped segment where it mentions labels, bottle caps, and says "blown in bottles." Again, no major revelation, but it confirms there were definitely embossed bottles at least as early as 1911. Of course it doesn't differentiate between extract and carbonated bottles, but because the header list them separately, I think its safe to assume it's referring to both types of bottles. 

Note: I'm still searching to see if the VGA monogram was ever officially registered, but so far have not been able to find anything related to it along those lines. If it was ever registered, it could be helpful in determining the dates for certain bottles.


 





(To be continued)


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Why the 2 different Serial #'s on these bottles?
> 
> View attachment 175049



Leon

Good question! That's the 1206 serial number you referred to earlier. Other than the different serial numbers, is there any major difference between the 1206 and 1246 bottles? If so, please explain.


----------



## SODABOB

I'm currently searching for the earliest reference I can find that uses the word "Bottling" in connection with Vernor's Ginger Ale. I could end up being wrong, but I doubt they would use the word "Bottling" in connection with the extract. The word "Bottling" is almost always used in reference to the mass production and bottling of the carbonated version.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> Good question! That's the 1206 serial number you referred to earlier. Other than the different serial numbers, is there any major difference between the 1206 and 1246 bottles? If so, please explain.



No other differances between the 2 that i'm aware of. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Thanks!

Unless you've already done so and I have forgotten, could you please post a full image of your 1206 bottle, both front and back. And if you do, I'll put my 1246 bottle along with your 1206 bottle and see if anything jumps out at us. There's got to be an explanation for the two different serial numbers but the only thing that pops into my head at the moment is that serial numbers are usually sequential and the 1206 was probably issued before the 1246, but why they would do that I really can't say right now. 

In the meantime, check out this ad that was described as being from 1916. I found it on the Internet but it didn't say if it was from a magazine or a newspaper, nor can I confirm the 1916 date. But I'm going to try and find another one like it for confirmation.

Note: I don't know what the text says because I have not been able to enlarge it. Early ads that include pictures of Vernor's bottles are extremely rare. 

1916 ?


----------



## SODABOB

The book on this link was published in 1916 and discusses in detail numerous aspects of the 1906 Food & Drug Act. It should open on the part about serial numbers. I haven't been able to make complete sense of it yet, but perhaps someone else can find something specific that I missed ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=w...pure food and drug act serial numbers&f=false


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Unless you've already done so and I have forgotten, could you please post a full image of your 1206 bottle, both front and back. And if you do, I'll put my 1246 bottle along with your 1206 bottle and see if anything jumps out at us. There's got to be an explanation for the two different serial numbers but the only thing that pops into my head at the moment is that serial numbers are usually sequential and the 1206 was probably issued before the 1246, but why they would do that I really can't say right now.
> 
> In the meantime, check out this ad that was described as being from 1916. I found it on the Internet but it didn't say if it was from a magazine or a newspaper, nor can I confirm the 1916 date. But I'm going to try and find another one like it for confirmation.
> 
> Note: I don't know what the text says because I have not been able to enlarge it. Early ads that include pictures of Vernor's bottles are extremely rare.
> 
> 1916 ?
> 
> View attachment 175066



It's hard to see the label, but it looks like one of the two early paper label bottles I posted earlier. There is more lettering on it, so my guess is it is not the "Bottled By James Vernor" label that was part of the 1911 trademark application. There are quite a few more words in that section of the label, so 1916 could be just about right.

Keith


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> This one Bob? Looks like it might say Siphon right on receipt?View attachment 175014



This is a very interesting receipt. Just to add to the mystery, attached is a photo of a Vernor's extract can - not bottle. I've never seen one in person. It sure looks early, though.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, here's a pic of my 1906 bottle. Pictured on left. Bottle on right does not have the statement. Bottle on right has the words & monogram closer or spaced tighter on the bottle.


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> This is a very interesting receipt. Just to add to the mystery, attached is a photo of a Vernor's extract can - not bottle. I've never seen one in person. It sure looks early, though.




I've seen Pepsi & coke & others with syrup bottles (tin can & glass) similar to this. Pic below.


----------



## hemihampton

Two other Trademarks with Dates. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Thanks for the bottle pics!

Does either one of them have the Glenshaw codes or any other type of makers mark, etc?


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> I'm currently searching for the earliest reference I can find that uses the word "Bottling" in connection with Vernor's Ginger Ale. I could end up being wrong, but I doubt they would use the word "Bottling" in connection with the extract. The word "Bottling" is almost always used in reference to the mass production and bottling of the carbonated version.



Preliminary Results ...

This is the earliest reference I have found so far that list James Vernor as ...

 "Bottler / Bottling" 

Detroit City Directory ~ *1905

*


----------



## SODABOB

*Final Results* !!!

Detroit City Directory ~ *1895  

*(Druggist and Florist - But Not Bottler)



Detroit City Directory ~ *1896 

*Notice it list 235 and 33 Woodward Avenue - Indicates Transition

(Earliest reference I can find for James Vernor as a Bottler / Bottling)


----------



## SODABOB

Sooooooooooooooooo ...

I guess that means there should be a *1896 Soda Bottle

*


----------



## SODABOB

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not jumping the gun just yet about there being an "identifiable" 1896 Vernor's *soda bottle*. If such a critter exist it should (in my opinion) have been a Hutchinson bottle and not a Crown bottle. The earliest crown closure bottle I'm aware of is from 1894, and they are extremely hard to find. However, whether the 1896 Vernor's bottle was a Hutchinson or Crown, it may have been generic and not embossed with his name. But I'm keeping an open mind and will see what develops.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Regardless of whether a 1896 Vernor's Ginger Ale soda bottle was embossed or not, you'd think it would have at least had a paper label. But what do we know about Vernor's paper labels prior to about 1911?


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the earliest Crown closure bottle I'm aware of ...

Note: According to Bill Lockhart, the 1894 date indicates when this particular bottle was made and not when the bottler was established ...

View attachment 175093


----------



## SODABOB

F. H. Finley and Son ~ Washington, D.C. 

Timeline of company and its bottles ...

http://www.chosi.org/bottles/finley/finley.htm


----------



## SODABOB

In search of ...

A pre 1911 Vernor's Ginger Ale *soda bottle *​paper label ...


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

The first chance you get, I'd like to discuss these two bottles you posted. Depending on your descriptions of them, I might have a new (crazy) theory ...

Note: The 1906 I painted on the images obviously refers to the Food & Drug Act statement and not the bottle's date of manufacturer! 

Fronts




Backs


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Sooooooooooooooooo ...
> 
> I guess that means there should be a *1896 Soda Bottle
> 
> *View attachment 175090




That's what I been saying, if he moved to his new bottling plant & location in 1896 like they said he did where's that first 1896 bottle?  LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Where's that first 1896 bottle?  LEON.



Maybe you already have one but don't realize it!  Does your Non-1906 Statement bottle have any marks, codes, etc; on it? And is it BIM or ABM?


----------



## hemihampton

My non 1906 has the monogram so I don't think it could be pre 1906?  I already told you the codes or marks ect & they are all ABM.   LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Thanks

What I'm trying to say is ...

1. Vernor's first soda bottle might have been generic without his name embossed on it. If that was the case, then we'll likely never be able to properly identify and connect it to him. That's where a paper label might be a factor. 

2. Vernor's first "identifiable" soda bottle might be one of the embossed examples we've already seen but we just don't realize it yet.


----------



## hemihampton

Like you said it's possible we already seen it. And the most likely suspect so far would be Keith's no monogram Tooled Top crown. You said Keith's bottle could be pre 1906 . Could it be 1890's? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

These are the earliest Vernor's paper labels I'm aware of, which were submitted when James Vernor filed for his 1911 Trademark. But apparently no one knows for certain how long prior to 1911 they were used.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Like you said it's possible we already seen it. And the most likely suspect so far would be Keith's no monogram Tooled Top crown. You said Keith's bottle could be pre 1906 . Could it be 1890's? LEON.



I dunno! 

Its @ post #485 but the thumbnail images won't automatically transfer. I'll save and transfer them later. But it has all the earmarks of being super early!


----------



## SODABOB

Here's Keith's bottle from post #485

And his text copy/pasted ...

" It's the one with the code. It has no label left on it. It's hard to take photos of the seam disappearing. It looks like it stops about 3/4 inch before the bottom lip of the top. Much easier to see in person, tough through a phone camera!"


----------



## hemihampton

Keith also had the same bottle as the one you pictured above but
 with a paper label but no codes on bottle. Pictured below on far left. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

According to Keith's Post #478

This Bottle ...



Goes with this Base ...



Goes with this description ... 

"The bottle on the left only has embossing on the bottom of the bottle. The third photo is what that looks like." 

Slightly Edited:

"The bottle on the left only has embossing on the bottom. The third photo is what the base looks like."


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I expect Keith will be along eventually and will clarify things for us - but the way I understand what he's saying is ... 

1. The *only *embossing is on the base of the bottle

2. There are *no codes *or any other type of embossing anywhere on the bottle.

Which, if accurate, makes it a strong contender for a super early bottle and possibly one of, if not the very first ... ???


----------



## SODABOB

And there's this I forgot about that pertains to the same bottle being discussed ...

"The fourth and fifth photos are the top of that bottle. Again, I'm no bottle expert. But, from what I've learned during this discussion, this looks like the seam ends and there has been a totally different top applied. In fact, even the quality of the glass looks very different."


----------



## SODABOB

And no *VGA Monogram *anywhere on the bottle! 


( Which I think we all agree came later )


----------



## SODABOB

But let's not forget, this C.G. CO. 14-B bottle doesn't have the VGA monogram, either ...


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> According to Keith's Post #478
> 
> This Bottle ...
> 
> View attachment 175110
> 
> Goes with this Base ...
> 
> View attachment 175111
> 
> Goes with this description ...
> 
> "The bottle on the left only has embossing on the bottom of the bottle. The third photo is what that looks like."
> 
> Slightly Edited:
> 
> "The bottle on the left only has embossing on the bottom. The third photo is what the base looks like."



 YES,That's the same bottle I posted.


----------



## SODABOB

I think the missing link might be found by determining when the VGA~MONOGRAM was first used ? / trademark ?


----------



## hemihampton

Yes, That's what I was thinking also.


----------



## hemihampton

Found this in the April 1896 Western Druggist. Vernor's selling & closing his Druggist Business. Why? Because he was moving closer to downtown to concentrate full time on his Booming Ginger Ale Business with the opening of a Bottling dept. & new bigger building. Which eventually expanded to take over the whole block.LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I did a little detective work on this photograph and discovered that ...

1. The only dry cleaning store I could find in Detroit that used a 406 address was the La France Dry Cleaners that were located at *406 Scotten Avenue*.

2. The grocery and tobacco store on the left (which I'm confident is *408 Scotten Avenue*) was owned and operated by a gentleman named O. Witmore.

The reasons I investigated this photograph are ...

1. I was curious when it was taken.

2. It has the Vernor's VGA logo on the wagon - plus 33 Woodward - plus Phone Main 469 - plus a paper label bottle. 

Taking all of the above into consideration, I'm giving it a date of ...

*circa 1907

*


*

*


----------



## SODABOB

With my point of emphasis being ...

If my circa 1907 date is accurate, then it suggest the paper label bottle was in use at that time. There's more that I found regarding the 406 and 408 Scotten Avenue addresses, but the best dates I could come up for them were between 1905 and 1909. Hence, my circa 1907 date.


----------



## SODABOB

Regarding the *Main 469 *phone number, the earliest date I can find for that is 1896. And was used until sometime in the late teens or early 1920s when it was changed to *​Cherry 5400*


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

I searched high and low but could not find where the VGA logo was ever trademarked. It just seems to have appeared out of nowhere around 1906-1907 (But this is only based on a somewhat-educated guess and is not confirmed)


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the Detroit Historical Society's description of the photograph I just posted ...

[FONT=&quot]A team of horses pulls a Vernors Ginger Ale delivery wagon in this 1909 photo provided by the Detroit Historical Society. The driver is seated in the front of the wagon, which is parked at the curb in front of a grocery store and a dry cleaning and dyeing shop, possibly on Scotten Avenue between Porter Street and Ida Avenue in Southwest Detroit. (Image courtesy of the Detroit Historical Society)


[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

But regardless if the photograph was taken in 1907 or 1909, it suggest the paper label bottle depicted on the wagon was used at least as early as 1907-1909, which is earlier than the 1911 Trademark date we discussed previously.


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> But let's not forget, this C.G. CO. 14-B bottle doesn't have the VGA monogram, either ...
> 
> View attachment 175114
> 
> View attachment 175115



The best I can come up with about this particular bottle is what the Bottle Research Group claimed it their study.

Which is (copy/pasted) ...

Carolina Glass Co. (1902-1910)

Cohansey Glass Co. (1900-1909)

Coshocton Glass Co. (1902-ca. 1915)

Bottle Types: 

Although the Carolina Glass Co. produced soda and beer bottles during its entire tenure, its main output was liquor ware – first for the Carolina Dispensary, then for the county dispensaries. It is very telling that neither Huggins (1977) nor Teal (2005) mentioned a single instance where Carolina Glass sold bottles to a Coca-Cola or Pepsi-Cola franchise – the two major southern brands represented in our sample.

The Conansey Glass Co. also made beer and soda bottles during its production life at East Downingtown from 1900 to ca. 1914. However, the main line of the factory appears to have been product jars and fruit jars (often indistinguishable from each other).

The Coshocton Glass Co. began manufacturing only beer bottles in 1902 and continued to produce beer containers as its main product until the advent of Prohibition in 1920. The firm soon added soda bottles to the inventory and included various other containers at different times. It is clear that this was the major beer and soda bottle manufacturer with C.G.CO.initials.


----------



## SODABOB

I did a brief search on all three class companies, and the only one I could find that produced *soda bottles* in 1896 and 1897 was the ...

*Cohansey Glass Company ~ Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

*From ...

The Labanon Daily News ~ Lebanon, Pennsylvania ~ July 29, *1896



*

( But I do not know if they were Hutchinson-type bottles or Crown-tops )


----------



## hemihampton

went by my buddy's house today. In his Garage Attic he said he had a old Wooden box of Vernor's full of Vernor's bottles. I say lets see them, Here's what he had, case dated to 1952 but bottles looked like 1960's maybe? Was not full of Vernors bottles only 7 were quart size Vernors. The other 5 in there were seperate. 4 different ones though, odd I figured all the bottles would be the same?  Anybody have a Idea what a fair offer would be? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Case I just picked up today in better shape then most I've seen. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

In search of (bottle related) clues...

I'm not sure this tells us very much, but I thought it was interesting and worth taking another look at. Its the original Vernor's trademark document filed on March 29, 1911 and registered on August 15, 1911. Notice the part I underlined in the Declaration where it says ...

*... that the mark has been in actual use as a trademark of the applicant for ten years next preceding February twentieth, nineteen hundred and five, ... * 

Note: The term "Trademark" pertains to the word "Vernor's" in relation to ginger ale and ginger ale extract, but not necessarily to the product itself. That's why trademarks are sometimes referred to as "Word-marks." The registering of products and product containers falls under the category of "Patents" and not trademarks. Just as the words Coca Cola pertain to a "Trademark" and their bottle designs fall under "Patents."

Anyway, the main reason I'm focusing on this is because of the way its worded. It doesn't say "at least" ten years, but is very specific about the date *February 20, 1905. *And when you do the math, 1905 minus ten years is 1895. 

My question/observation is this ...

What occurred on *February 20, 1895 *that was important enough to include that specific date in the official trademark document?


----------



## SODABOB

To clarify / Just in case its confusing ...

The word "Preceding" means ... "Before" / "Prior To" / "Earlier" / Etc.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> In search of (bottle related) clues...
> 
> I'm not sure this tells us very much, but I thought it was interesting and worth taking another look at. Its the original Vernor's trademark document filed on March 29, 1911 and registered on August 15, 1911. Notice the part I underlined in the Declaration where it says ...
> 
> *... that the mark has been in actual use as a trademark of the applicant for ten years next preceding February twentieth, nineteen hundred and five, ... *
> 
> Note: The term "Trademark" pertains to the word "Vernor's" in relation to ginger ale and ginger ale extract, but not necessarily to the product itself. That's why trademarks are sometimes referred to as "Word-marks." The registering of products and product containers falls under the category of "Patents" and not trademarks. Just as the words Coca Cola pertain to a "Trademark" and their bottle designs fall under "Patents."
> 
> Anyway, the main reason I'm focusing on this is because of the way its worded. It doesn't say "at least" ten years, but is very specific about the date *February 20, 1905. *And when you do the math, 1905 minus ten years is 1895.
> 
> My question/observation is this ...
> 
> What occurred on *February 20, 1895 *that was important enough to include that specific date in the official trademark document?
> 
> View attachment 175130
> 
> View attachment 175131



I just did a quick bit of research and February 20, 1905 was when a new US Trademark law was adopted. There had been a previous law in 1881, but it was for interstate goods and dealings with Indian tribes. Right now, I'm just finding references to the 1905 law and not the law itself. I'm guessing there might be something in the law that asks if the mark being used has been used for ten years. Someone must have convinced James Vernor that even though he was using his family name, he better protect it. Maybe it makes a little more sense now that he only took six years to get Vernor's Ginger Ale trademarked instead of 45 years. And, just because the law was passed in 1905 doesn't mean it was readily known in 1905 that the protection was available.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> But regardless if the photograph was taken in 1907 or 1909, it suggest the paper label bottle depicted on the wagon was used at least as early as 1907-1909, which is earlier than the 1911 Trademark date we discussed previously.



That's pretty interesting information. But, we're still missing ten years from 1896 to 1906. I'm leaning toward your theory that he used generic bottles with some sort of paper label. His extract labels were very simple looking. His carbonated ginger ale bottles could have been the same one color block printing type of label. The only thing that bothers me about the theory is that I've never seen anything like that in Vernor's literature. I have seen the diamond shaped (1911 trademark) label in their literature (in a line-up of historic bottles). However, to doubt my own doubting, if it was a really boring looking bottle, the advertising guys might have left it out of the line-up.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> I expect Keith will be along eventually and will clarify things for us - but the way I understand what he's saying is ...
> 
> 1. The *only *embossing is on the base of the bottle
> 
> 2. There are *no codes *or any other type of embossing anywhere on the bottle.
> 
> Which, if accurate, makes it a strong contender for a super early bottle and possibly one of, if not the very first ... ???



All true. The only embossing is on the bottom and there are no codes. This could be the earliest Vernor's bottle type that we can identify. Maybe not the earliest Vernor's bottle (for carbonated soda pop, that is), but the earliest we can identify.


----------



## hemihampton

I noticed that Trademark said even though in use for many years he sought to have it Registered for more Protection. All labels Registered will have the R or R in circle like the Pepsi I posted below. Does any of the Vernor's have the R added to label & if so this might help date them? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Or, Maybe the labels would just say "Reg U.S. Pat Off" Like the can pictured below? LEON.


----------



## VernorsGuy

It looks like the earlier bottles say Reg. US Pat. Off. and newer (after 1970) just have the R.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> It looks like the earlier bottles say Reg. US Pat. Off.



How early?   And is the "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." on the bottles, the labels, or both?


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> It looks like the earlier bottles say Reg. US Pat. Off. and newer (after 1970) just have the R.





Keith, Do you have any old Vernor's labels that do not have the Reg U.S. Pat Off?  LEON.


----------



## VernorsGuy

I have a limited supply of Vernor's bottles in my office at work. But, I have a decent representation of the eras, not including the very early paper labels. Attached is a photo of an embossed bottle with "registered" embossed on it. All the ACLs and cans say Reg US Pat Off right up to the late 1960s. After that it's the R. I don't have a delivery boy paper label here or the diamond shaped label. I can look at those later tonight.


----------



## hemihampton

None of mine say Registered below the IN RED or anywhere else on the bottle. Does that one you showed above have any codes like G25 or anything else? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

My 2 Canadian ones have 'registered' embossed on them.


----------



## SODABOB

I don't want to jump the gun, but the earliest use of "Registered" I'm aware of is connected with the 1911 Trademark.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> I don't want to jump the gun, but the earliest use of "Registered" I'm aware of is connected with the 1911 Trademark.





Yeah, That's What I'm guessing. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

My recently acquired 1906-Statement bottle does not have "Registered" on it. Nor does it have a makers mark or any other type of date codes, etc. I suspect anything with "Registered" on it dates to 1911 or later.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, why does my 1923 & 25 Glenshaw bottles have the monogram & ounces content but no Registered?  LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Check this out regarding the 1895 and 1905 Trademark laws ...

Dated 1913

https://books.google.com/books?id=t...age&q=February 20, 1895 Trademark law&f=false


By the way, I like what you said about "identifiable" bottles ... 

"This could be the earliest Vernor's bottle type that we can identify. Maybe not the earliest Vernor's bottle (for carbonated soda pop, that is), but the earliest we can identify."

That might be as good as it gets to even coming close to identifying and dating the first/earliest bottles.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Bob, why does my 1923 & 25 Glenshaw bottles have the monogram & ounces content but no Registered?  LEON.



Good question, but at the moment I dunno!


----------



## SODABOB

In search of ...

Any/All Vernor's Ginger Ale *paper labels* other than those we've already seen ... if they exist?


----------



## hemihampton

Not sure if you seen this label before. leon


----------



## hemihampton

This bottle say's REGISTERED 38.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Not sure if you seen this label before. leon
> 
> View attachment 175143



I don't recall seeing that particular label, but sure Keith has. Because it has "James Vernor Company" on it I suspect its later. Keith will likely know the exact date, but the earliest use of "James Vernor Company" I'm aware of is 1915-1916. 

I'm kind of thinking the imagery on this 1897 invoice might have been used on other "stuff" as well. Possibly a variation of it was used on early paper labels. Because it has 33 Woodward Avenue on it, the earliest it can date is 1896. Which is right in the ballpark of the bottles we're looking for ...


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

I just noticed something! The *1897 *looks like it was printed on the invoice and not hand written. The month part looks hand written, but not the 1897. Am I seeing things, or what? What say the rest of you "eagle eyes" ?


----------



## SODABOB

This 1900 invoice is definitely "ink stamped" ...


----------



## SODABOB

Question ...

Is it possible the 1897 invoice was the first one and the 1900 ink stamped type were intentionally left blank so they could be used year after year?


----------



## hemihampton

I have a Question. I knew the answer before but forgot. in 1896 he moved to 33 Woodward. When was the last time or year he used that 33 Address & when did they change the 33 to a new Address? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

I used to know the answer, too, but have also forgotten. I bet Keith knows!




Hey, Keith

Another question ...

This first image is an extract paper label - but do you know approximately when it was first used? 

Notice the "ribbon" graphics. 

(Ignore the "1897" in my title - I just did that for my file cataloging).



Now compare the extract label to the "ribbon" graphics on this 1897 invoice



Connection or Coincidence?


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

Anything, including bottles, labels, literature, etc; that has "Detroit's Drink" / "Deliciously Different" associated with it were used later than 1896-97 and don't factor into our search for Vernor's first/earliest soda bottles. Without remembering this it would be really easy to get even more confused than I/We already are. There may be other, later slogans, but those two are the only ones I can think of at the moment.


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> Keith, Do you have any old Vernor's labels that do not have the Reg U.S. Pat Off?  LEON.



The earliest paper label bottle in the diamond shape does not have any mention of "registered" on it.  The other bottle I have has a slightly different label which lists the number of ounces in the bottle. I believe this was a requirement of the Food and Drug Act of 1906. However, neither of the diamond labels say registered or Reg US Pat Off. Once you get to the delivery boy labels, they say Reg US Pat Off. 

I also checked a bunch of my embossed bottles and most do not say registered.


----------



## VernorsGuy

hemihampton said:


> I have a Question. I knew the answer before but forgot. in 1896 he moved to 33 Woodward. When was the last time or year he used that 33 Address & when did they change the 33 to a new Address? LEON.



1921 it changed to 239.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Question ...
> 
> Is it possible the 1897 invoice was the first one and the 1900 ink stamped type were intentionally left blank so they could be used year after year?



It wouldn't surprise me at all if James Vernor kept using whatever he had - stationery, invoices, receipts - until they were gone. It was a thrifty company and I can't picture them throwing out anything they could still use.


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> I used to know the answer, too, but have also forgotten. I bet Keith knows!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, Keith
> 
> Another question ...
> 
> This first image is an extract paper label - but do you know approximately when it was first used?
> 
> Notice the "ribbon" graphics.
> 
> (Ignore the "1897" in my title - I just did that for my file cataloging).
> 
> View attachment 175148
> 
> Now compare the extract label to the "ribbon" graphics on this 1897 invoice
> 
> View attachment 175149
> 
> Connection or Coincidence?



I don't have any valid information on these designs. Looking at Vernor's artwork over the years there are similarities and differences. It was quite often up to the artist to figure out the finer details - like which eye winks on the gnome. (It changes depending on the artist.)


----------



## hemihampton

VernorsGuy said:


> 1921 it changed to 239.




OK, Thanks, That's later then I was thinking. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I have a heavy suspicion that the older Vernor's Diamond label should come both ways, with & without the "Reg U.S. Pat Off."
 I like to see one with it? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

*New Theory ...
*
I've been struggling on exactly how to word this, but decided to just throw it out there and let the chips fall where they may. The only thing I ask is that you allow me the opportunity to share this new theory of mine whether you agree with it or not, and not to think of me as some type of obstinate trouble maker. It is by no means conclusive and I will do my best to gradually introduce evidence that led me to this new theory. So without further ado, I am currently of the opinion that the following 1896 Detroit, Michigan directory listing for James Vernor is referring to the bottling of *Siphon Bottles *and not Soda Bottles ...




(To be continued)


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> *New Theory ...
> *
> I've been struggling on exactly how to word this, but decided to just throw it out there and let the chips fall where they may. The only thing I ask is that you allow me the opportunity to share this new theory of mine whether you agree with it or not, and not to think of me as some type of obstinate trouble maker. It is by no means conclusive and I will do my best to gradually introduce evidence that led me to this new theory. So without further ado, I am currently of the opinion that the following 1896 Detroit, Michigan directory listing for James Vernor is referring to the bottling of *Siphon Bottles *and not Soda Bottles ...
> 
> View attachment 175154
> 
> (To be continued)




I'm familiar with all those other names on the list & they all made Hutch's (which I have ) except Fielder that made a stoneware & blackburn never heard of. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

It seems like if all the soda competition in town & all around you are bottling with the Hutch wouldn't you do the same? Maybe the Vernor's hutch so rare it's just never been found? I know, far fetched & I doubt it but you never know? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

We're thinking along the same lines, again!  Do you happen to know if any of those bottler's you are familiar with ever used a Crown-closure bottle in 1896-97?


----------



## hemihampton

I do have some of those other Company bottles in a crown top but don't know if they would be from the late 1890's or tooled crown top.  LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

We've seen this Vernor's 1897 invoice before - But let's take another look at it ...

Note: This is not the sum and total of my new theory, but it definitely had a major influence on it. There are certain aspects about the invoice that I feel are obvious. Which are ...

1. The 1897 is lithographed on the invoice and not hand written. Suggesting it was intentional and specific to 1897.

2. It depicts the image of a soda fountain outfit.

3. It depicts the image of a siphon bottle.

4. It shows the sale of "6 Siphon Ginger Ale" for a total of $1.20. Which is 20-cents each. 

5. It confirms Vernor's Ginger Ale was sold in siphon bottles in 1897. 

6. It does not depict the image of a soda bottle. Which suggest (to me) that Vernor's Ginger Ale was not available in a Hutchinson or Crown bottle in 1897. 


 

Footnote: I honestly feel if Vernor's Ginger Ale was being bottled as a typical soft drink in 1897 that the invoice would have depicted the image of such a bottle. And yet the 1896 Detroit Directory, which was the previous year, list James Vernor in the "Bottlers" section. But can we say with 100% certainty that the term "Bottler" does not also include siphon bottlers?


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, Got got most of my crowntops packed in box's & scattered about. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Bob, Got got most of my crowntops packed in box's & scattered about. LEON.



Leon

Been there, done that! That's one of the reasons I sold about 400 bottles a few months ago. Please check 'em out when you get the time. 

Thanks


----------



## hemihampton

If I could sell most of my 3,000 beer cans it would give me more room to put more bottles up. That's the plan. Someday. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of 1897 ... 

( Just one example of what was going on at the time )

Life Magazine ~ 1897





The exact date for this bottle is unknown, but it is strikingly similar to the bottle depicted in the 1897 Ad



Footnote:   In 1893, Hires offered bottled rootbeer for the first time.


----------



## SODABOB

Which takes us back to this Vernor's siphon bottle of Keith's ... (Date Unknown)

I fully acknowledge in the center of the etching it says "Druggist"  Based on everything we've seen, I think we all agree that James Vernor quit the drug business in 1896. Which might mean this siphon bottle is connected with James Vernor's drug store at 235 Woodward Avenue. If my assumption is correct, then it suggest he was involved with siphon bottles prior to relocating to 33 Woodward Avenue. Which helps support my new theory because it might explain the siphon bottle depicted on the 1897 invoice. Also, please be reminded the 1896 Detroit Directory I posted earlier includes both 235 Woodward Avenue and 33 Woodward Avenue - indicating a transition between the two locations.

Note: I acknowledge this siphon bottle does not have ginger ale etched on it. At least not on the side that Keith photographed. 

 



 

Compare the etched druggist mortar & pestle on the siphon bottle to the mortar & pestle sign on Vernor's 235 Woodward Avenue drug store

 



1897 invoice, again


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> It seems like if all the soda competition in town & all around you are bottling with the Hutch wouldn't you do the same? Maybe the Vernor's hutch so rare it's just never been found? I know, far fetched & I doubt it but you never know? LEON.



Leon

Since I'm acknowledging things, I want to acknowledge this post of yours and say I agree there is a possibility that Vernor's Ginger Ale might have initially been bottled in a Hutchinson bottle. However, because an (embossed) example has never surfaced, at least not that I'm aware of, suggest if such a critter ever exist that it was most likely un-embossed and had a paper label.


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the fun of it ...

This is the earliest catalog I'm aware that discusses siphon bottles and includes their various sizes and wholesale prices ...

Illinois Glass Company  ~  1906 

(The wholesale prices were likely less in 1897 - But just how much less I don't know)


----------



## SODABOB

More 1897 ...

The Detroit Free Press  ~  Detroit, Michigan  ~  September 10, 1897



(Approximately 8-cents per bottle)


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

The ginger ale siphon bottles listed on the 1897 Vernor's invoice were priced at 6-cents each. And if resold, they were probably marked up. But just how much they might have been marked up, I don't know.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Reminder ...
> 
> The ginger ale siphon bottles listed on the 1897 Vernor's invoice were priced at 6-cents each. And if resold, they were probably marked up. But just how much they might have been marked up, I don't know.




6 for $1.20 looks like .20 cents each.


----------



## SODABOB

Typo! 

20-cents each

That's what I get for counting with my fingers!


----------



## SODABOB

*"Pop" Quiz

*


----------



## SODABOB

Not a typo ...

Vernor's Extract Bottle ~ *25-cents* ~ Date Unknown ~ Posted Earlier by Keith


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> *"Pop" Quiz
> 
> *View attachment 175178





Quart size Carbonated Ginger Ale Bottle.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Quart size Carbonated Ginger Ale Bottle.



Perhaps like this one?


----------



## SODABOB

You will recall the siphon bottle I posted from the 1906 Illinois Glass Company catalog. Well, as it turns out, there was some type of Illinois Glass Company operation in Detroit, Michigan in the early 1900s. I have just now started researching it, but thought I'd post what I found so far ...

1903 Detroit Business Directory ~ Bottles/Bottling/Bottlers

1. Both Pages 



James Vernor (Middle of left page) 



Illinois Glass Company (Bottom of left page)



Detroit Free Press ~ August 2, 1903 ~ K.G. Smith manager


----------



## SODABOB

Example of Illinois Glass Company makers mark ...

<I> ... ( I in a Diamond )



1903-1904 Catalog



1903-1904 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ 220 Jefferson Avenue


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I don't know (yet) if the Illinois Glass Company had a factory in Detroit or just an office. But regardless of which, it wouldn't make sense (to me) to have an operation there unless bottles could be made/acquired/ordered.


----------



## SODABOB

From the 1903-1904 Illinois Glass Company catalog



Keith's unmarked/generic bottles



Me


----------



## SODABOB

To keep stock of what?

Detroit Free Press ~ April 1, 1903


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> To keep stock of what?
> 
> Detroit Free Press ~ April 1, 1903
> 
> View attachment 175192



Maybe keep stock of all those Vernor's Siphon Bottles?


----------



## SODABOB

That's what I'm thinking / hoping. By the way, did you know that 220 Jefferson Avenue was only a few blocks away from 33 Woodward Avenue?


----------



## SODABOB

I'm still searching for specifics, but as near as I can determine at the moment, the Illinois Glass Company in Detroit appears to only have been in operation (at 220 Jefferson Ave.) for two years in 1902 and 1903.


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> To keep stock of what?
> 
> Detroit Free Press ~ April 1, 1903
> 
> View attachment 175192



Maybe to keep stock of all those Vernor's *soda bottles*​?


----------



## SODABOB

If the Illinois Glass Company was in operation in Detroit for only two years (1902-1903) it seems mighty coincidental to me they were located there at about the same time that James Vernor might have started bottling his ginger ale. Especially when you take into account they were only a few blocks away from each other.


----------



## hemihampton

How come only 2 short years. Keiths Siphons don't have that Illinois makers mark. I guess the good thing is that if we could find a Vernor's with that mark we could pin point it to 1902-3. Unless made outside of Detroit. No Coincedence, Lots of other soda & brewers were in the same area. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Illinois Glass Company ~ Detroit

I dug a little deeper and discovered ...

1. The manager's full name was Kenzie G. Smith
2. The company was located there at least as early as 1902 and as late as 1909
3. For a number of years it was called Illinois Glass Company & U.S. Bottlers Supply

Based on some other tid-bits of information, the company appears to have been a distributor, supplier, warehouse and not a factory. And even if there are pre 1929 Vernor's bottles with the Illinois Glass mark <I> it might be hard to precisely date them and determine their exact place of origin. But it might be worth looking into if any Vernor's bottles have the <I> mark, especially the extract bottles.

​<I>

Illinois Glass Company. Alton, Illinois (1873-1929). This mark was used from approximately 1895-1915.


----------



## SODABOB

Putting the siphon bottle theory aside and returning to your basic soda pop bottle, this looks like its going to be the best and earliest I'm going to come up with ...

July 1902



Everything preceding this appears to be related to siphon and/or extract bottles!


.?.


----------



## SODABOB

For comparison ...

Same Year / Same Newspaper / Extract / 20-cents / No Bottle Rebate

May 1902


----------



## SODABOB

In case you haven't seen this one ... 

Now that's how to load a truck with cases of Vernor's Ginger Ale! Not one case at a time, but all at once, including the truck-bed itself! Check out that overhead loader/conveyor.  

1924


----------



## hemihampton

Never seen that pic before, the truck looks older then 1924? LEON.

P.S. Faygo truck for Comparison.


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> In case you haven't seen this one ...
> 
> Now that's how to load a truck with cases of Vernor's Ginger Ale! Not one case at a time, but all at once, including the truck-bed itself! Check out that overhead loader/conveyor.
> 
> 1924
> 
> View attachment 175207



The site where I found the Vernor's truck photo described it as 1924. Of course the truck could be older than the photo. I really don't know. But here's an original ad for a 1924 Chevrolet truck made in Detroit ... 



This next photo is described as ...

[FONT=&quot]Vernor’s Ginger Ale delivery trucks parked in front of the company bottling plant located on the west side of Woodward Ave just south of Woodbridge St. Mariners Church, located at the n.w. corner of Woodward and Woodbridge, can be seen in the center right area of the photo. c. 1925 (Detroit Hist. Soc.)

[/FONT]


----------



## hemihampton

From the Ad's looks like It could be 1924. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I'd like to let everyone know that I'm pretty much through contributing to this discussion. I might respond to comments from time to time, but other than that I can't think of anything more I can contribute that I haven't already contributed. I acknowledge that my observations might not be conclusive, but they are the best I can come up with. Speaking of which, it appears to me that ...

1. James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu established a drug store in Detroit, Michigan in 1866.

2. James Vernor may or may not have had a commercial soda fountain in his drug store prior to 1880. 

3. James Vernor may or may not have sold fountain drinks in his drug store prior to 1880.

4. James Vernor most likely started producing and selling his celebrated ginger ale around 1880-1884, and might have sold it in siphon bottles during that same time period. 

5. James Vernor discontinued his drug business and relocated to a larger facility to focus on the mass production of his ginger ale extract in 1896. Which was something he didn't have room to do at his relatively small drug store. 

6. Once James Vernor relocated and got the mass production of his ginger ale extract going, he then started focusing on bottling it in a carbonated version. 

7. It appears to me the carbonated version of James Vernor's ginger ale in soda bottles was first introduced to the market place around 1902.

Anyhoo, that pretty much sums things up for me personally. I will remain open minded to any and all observations that might be contributed in the future. Again, I do not present any of my observations as being 100% conclusive. They are merely the best I can find. 

Thanks in particular to Rich/iggyworf for starting this thread. I'd also like to thank Leon and Keith Wunderlich for their much appreciated and invaluable contributions. And especially to Keith for sharing his amazing Vernor's Ginger Ale collectibles. 

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

Last but not least ...

This is the earliest reference I can find regarding James Vernor having a commercial soda fountain at his 235 Woodward Avenue drug store. Even though it doesn't include the address, because of the date we know he was still located at his original drug store ... 

*The Detroit Free Press ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ October 12, 1895

*

Reminder:  I never said he didn't have a soda fountain at 235 Woodward Avenue. I merely said I could not find a time period publication to support the existence of a soda fountain prior to about 1880. Nor am I saying he didn't have a soda fountain prior to the one mentioned in this 1895 newspaper snippet. I'm merely saying its the earliest reference *I can find *that uses the word "fountain." The other references I posted regarding the loan of a "soda fount" and the sale of a used "Arctic fount" are inconclusive in my opinion. Whereas this one is fairly specific.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Be prepared! If a Vernor's Ginger Ale bottle like those pictured here from Keith's collection ever come up on eBay, I plan to fight tooth & nail for it! I just gotta get me one of them thar bottles! 

On second thought - if it has a missing or extremely tattered label, then I might let you have it. Otherwise, watch out! (Lol)  

By the way, I wonder what a bottle like these with an intact label is actually worth? Remember, a delivery boy paper label bottle just sold on eBay for $113


----------



## iggyworf

Well Bob I will probably be in that fight. But fear I will go down when the bidding gets high.............or will I????????


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Actually, the odds of one ever coming up on eBay are probably pretty slim. But ya just never know. If one ever does become available, Keith will probably outbid both of us.


----------



## SODABOB

To show I'm a good sport and not a soda jerk, I'm currently working on a way to give away one of the ACL soda bottle books. I'm not sure what I'll come up with just yet, but it will be fair and simple and something that everyone who is interested can participate in. 

Signed,

Sodabob


----------



## hemihampton

Thanks for your Research Bob, Wish I could of Contributed more. LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

hemihampton said:


> Thanks for your Research Bob, Wish I could of Contributed more. LEON.



The same goes for myself.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Yes, thanks for everything Bob, Leon and others. Due to all the impressive resources Bob brought to the table, I bought myself one month of the Detroit Free Press archives. Detroit also had the Detroit News and Detroit Times. Seeing that the Detroit Free Press was originally called the Democratic Free Press and Vernor was a Republican, I wonder if he put more of his advertising money other places? 

Also, stay tuned. My plan is to take a half day off of work next week and go downtown to the library and do some research. This question intrigues me and I'd love to find proof.

Also, regarding paper label bottles, the photo attached is a paper label from Windsor that went for $24 after the delivery boy sold. Of course, not nearly as old, but still tough to find. Seems like a good price compared to the other one.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I can't wait to see what you find in the newspaper archives. I'm ready to send you the ACL book if/when you find a relevant reference that pertains to the questionable dates, locations, products that I raised. If you have never searched newspaper archives, be sure and search for addresses in connection with specific dates. Sometimes addresses such as "235 Woodard Avenue" don't always have the name "Vernor" associated with them but will still shed some light on what was going on at that particular address in a particular year. The fewer search words you use the easier it is to find what you are looking for among what may total millions of "pages." The newspaper archives I'm subscribed to has 190,397,990 "pages" (they add more pages almost daily) and it goes all the way back to the 1700s 

Staying Tuned! 

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Keith

To receive the free ACL book, all you have to find is ...

1. The words "Vernor" and "Ginger Ale" in the same sentence/paragraph, dated 1879 or earlier.

2. The words "Vernor" and "Soda Fountain" in the same sentence/paragraph, dated 1879 or earlier. 

3. Or any similar, but relevant, combination of those words that are specific and dated 1879 or earlier. 

Good Luck! I truly hope you find something!  

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

In the meantime ...

Because I don't want to disappoint anyone who was looking forward to participating in a chance to receive a free ACL book, I still plan on doing that and hope to have something put together in a day or two. If Keith comes up with a qualifying reference I will send him an ACL book separately just for him.


----------



## SODABOB

I suppose there's no reason to wait any longer - here's what I came up with for the free acl book ...

*The first person who can tell us "exactly" what every word is on the sign that's displayed on the wall of James Vernor's drug store in this circa 1870s photograph will receive a free ACL Soda Bottle book. *

Notes: 

1. This does not apply to Keith because he's on his own quest and I don't think it would be fair to everyone else. 

2. You can enter as many guesses/entries as you want, but they must be the "exact" wording for every part of the sign to win. 

3. Because I only know some of what it says, to win the book you have to be able to convince the majority of us that your guess/entry is accurate. If it comes down to it, we'll take a vote and let the majority opinion be the determining factor. That way we all have a say in it, which I think will be fairer and more fun. 

The main reason I'm presenting it in this manner is because I'm dying to know what the parts of the sign say that I haven't been able to figure out yet. Knowing "exactly" what the sign says may be the missing clue we have been looking for all along! 

Footnote: 

If no one can figure out what the sign says within one week from today, (Friday, October 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM Eastern Time), then I will come up with something else. I just don't want it to be a "pick a number" kind of thing. 

Signed,

Sodabob

Good Luck and Have Fun!


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Did you receive the *PM *(Personal Message) I sent you the other day? If you are not familiar with them, please go to your "Settings" and make the necessary changes to receive them. 

Thanks

Bob


Edit:  Keith received my PM so we're good-to-go on that!


----------



## SODABOB

By the way ...

About a week ago I came across a "painting" someone did of Vernor's Drug Store that they used the 1870s photo as a source for the painting. However, I did not save a picture of it and having difficulty finding again. If anyone finds it, please share it with us. But don't get your hopes up about the sign being accurate. The artist obviously painted in the wrong information that he apparently just guessed about. He also painted a street sign on the corner of the sidewalk that said "At-Water Ave" that was also obviously incorrect. Anyway, if you come across the painting, please post it just for the fun of it. 

Thanks!


----------



## SODABOB

To Clarify ...

In the original free book offer I said if the winner recently purchased an ACL book from me that I would send them $60.00 instead. That still applies to the original offer but not this new one involving the sign. If the winner of this sign offer recently purchased an ACL book from me, then I'll just send them another book that they can either keep, trade, or sell at their discretion.


----------



## SODABOB

I found the Vernor's drug store / pharmacy painting!

As you can see, the artist got some of it right but not all of it. For one thing, he added the gentlemen standing outside that came from a later photo. Plus, there's the 'At-water' street sign I spoke about. Not to mention that some of the text on the building itself is totally bogus. So, if anyone intends to submit the painting as an entry, I'm pretty sure it will get voted down.


----------



## hemihampton

Here's what it sez. LEON.


P.S. Double click pic to supersize.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

If you can prove your entry beyond a shadow of a doubt, then you receive the book. Otherwise, I suggest we put it to a vote. I'm not the Judge & Jury here, but I just don't see what you see. In the attached image I placed question marks next to the parts I question. The rest of it I see and agree with!


----------



## SODABOB

I've been working on this too - but trying to fit things in based on the general size of the letters. By determining the size of the letters I hope to determine how many letters there might be per line. And from there, what the words themselves might be. Here's what I came up with using Leon's image. I realize its just a start, but hopefully it will give you some idea of how I'm approaching this. Because I'm sort of the moderator here, I'm not sure I should be helping out like this, but the way I see things, this isn't going to be easy to figure out and I just thought I help speed things up. 


Hey, Leon

I'm not saying your entry is right or wrong - that's up to the jury. But because I have a dog in this hunt, I thought it would be okay for me to put in my 2-cents worth. 

Leon's Image

 

Leon's Image - My Editing 

( Letters size based on width more so than height )


----------



## SODABOB

Just trying to lend a helping hand - Images just enhanced and darkened


----------



## hemihampton

From what I've been reading, Vernor's went to a Soda Beverage Exhibition in New York in 1868. It was implied at this Exhibition where he got the idea to work on a Ginger Ale Formula & he did in 1868. This info came from a 1919 book. Anybody else read this? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

I have not read that book, but would like too. 

Leon's answers to the pic seem pretty close, but I will study it more.


----------



## SODABOB

I might have the wording figured out where I placed the red arrow on the attached image. Because I'm not allowed a guess, I will have to refrain from saying what I think it might be. However, if I did say what I think it might be, and it was put to a vote, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of individuals might agree. The only thing I can think of along the lines of presenting a clue without disclosing it entirely, is to say I think ...

1. Its two words

2. The two words contain a total of 17 letters


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If you think its proper for me to give more clues, I will. But I need to hear from some of you first to let me know its okay.


----------



## SODABOB

A few things I can say about the signage that I don't think anyone will object to are ...

1. The photo was likely taken sometime between 1866 and 1876

2. Some accounts describe the photo as being taken in 1870

3. Some accounts say it was circa 1870s

4. So what I did was to search Detroit newspaper ads between 1866 and 1876 to see what type of terminology druggist were using during that time period. I wasn't looking for anything in particular, but I discovered that a lot of the druggist used the same "two word" term that contained a total of "17 letters" and that those two words might be the words I placed the red arrow next to.


----------



## SODABOB

I just searched outside the box and found ...

1. Approximately 1,500 different ads in the Detroit newspapers between 1860 and 1880 that used the same two word terminology I'm referring to. 

2. Approximately 50,000 different ads in nationwide newspapers between 1860 and 1880 that used the same two word terminology I'm referring to.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Help!  

I'm dying to tell you what I think the two words might be but I can't think of a way to do it that will be considered fair and proper!


----------



## SODABOB

Here's what I'd like to do ...

I'd like to go ahead and present my "Two Word / 17 Letter" theory for all to see and get some feedback on it. Even though the words look right to me, I could be totally wrong. But even if you think they are accurate, that still leaves the second to last line above "Reasonable Prices" that I currently have no clue as to what it might say. In fact, I'm starting to think we'll never be able to decipher the second to last line and that I'm probably going to have to come up with something else in order to give away a book. 

Please Vote ...

1. Yes - Show my two word guess!

2. No -  Do not show my two word guess!


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

Please know I'm sincere when I say that I am not trying to discredit or undermine your guess. But after seeing what I came up with, I think even you might be inclined to reconsider things, and that I might have nailed it. Mainly, I just want to get this over with and move on to something else. Which will likely involve something easier if I ever expect to give away a book. 

Respectfully and Sincerely, 

Bob


----------



## iggyworf

After looking at it a bunch and seeing what Leon came up with. I cannot think of anything else it could be. I vote that you tell us what you came up with!


----------



## hemihampton

OK, I vote you tell us what it is because we would still have to come up with the other line. Not sure how many other's are playing this game, might just be 3 of us? BUT, Before you do I'd like to say I see what looks like a Capital L with a period after it. Only thing I can think of is L. Hommedieu. Maybe L. Hommedieu Propriator? What dId you come up wIth Bob? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks, guys!

The only glitch is, I might have figured all of it out!  Do you want me to post the whole enchilada, or just part of it?


----------



## hemihampton

Maybe post the whole thing. Maybe your wrong & we can vote NO GOOD. Try again? I don't think anybody else will figure it out. I sent the Pic to NASA but will take 6 months + to hear back from them. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Okay, here goes!

But first, let me explain a few things ...

1. I wasn't kidding when I said there are thousands of ads from the mid to late 1800s that use similar wording. Its uncanny how common the wording is. Its almost as if Pharmacist and Druggist coast to coast were using the same text book reference. Especially the first two words. 

2. The attached ads are just a sampling of where I got the idea for the wording that I came up with. 

3. I should also point out there are variables to the wording. For example; some ads use "Pharmacist" whereas others use "Druggist." Plus, some ads use the word "With" where I used the word "From." Nor am I sure about the words "By" and 'At" but I put them in, anyway. 

4. In the hundreds of ads I looked at, there were two words that almost every one of them used. And those two words were ...

Carefully Prepared 

1874 Ad


 

1875



1876



Click back and forth between the two sign images and it will 'flicker' the wording. 

? (Inconclusive but possibly close) ?





Footnote: 

Depending on your initial response, we can discuss optional wording for some of what I came up with .


----------



## Canadacan

I vote keep going!!!!!!!!...you lost me a page..47...lol, but the most astounding thing is this post is at 700++++ responses!...I know you can hit a thousand!:deadhorse:...never before seen on this site!:fireworks:

BS aside...great detective work Bob!:flag:


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

I just noticed this ...


----------



## hemihampton

I could read the fully Prepared part, just could not Identify the CAR part. I'm not so sure about that Experianced Pharmacist. Maybe but maybe not looks more like a shorter word with longer word? I also noticed that At part & was going to throw that out there but was just to distorted to be sure. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, why the lighter white letters & then the one Dark letter looking like a & sign. Looks like 2 words something & something. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Leon

I don't have an explanation for what appears to be a bold *3 *but perhaps the following will shed some light on it ...

I examined hundreds of ads and the two most often used wordings in connection with *Carefully Prepared *were ...

#1 (Vast majority) 

By an *Experienced Pharmacist / Chemist / Druggist

*#2 (Very common but not majority)

At *All Hours Day or Night* 

There are variations of those two wording, but I'd say they account for about 75% of the ads I saw.


----------



## SODABOB

Some of the variables I saw were ...

1. Under the supervision of
2. By a Licensed Pharmacist
3. Promptly Delivered
4. By a Competent Pharmacist

Note: I especially like the ads that use Delivery/Delivered, but I can't quite fit that wording into the sign, yet.


----------



## hemihampton

Since he was more a Florist at that time I think it's gotta mention Florist. Maybe it sez "Confection & Florist" with the & a backwards 3 ?


----------



## SODABOB

I'm kind of wondering about ...

1. What appears to be cursive writing where I placed the yellow arrow

2. The last letter in the cursive writing that falls below the others 

Such as in the word ...
*
Every

*









*

*


----------



## SODABOB

A few of the ads I saw said ...

For *Every Ailment and Disease

*


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, Keith

This one is especially for you!

I'm not a medicinal bottle expert, but the two bottles pictured here look strikingly similar. Of course, that type of bottle could very well have been available for many years earlier, but it at least suggest it was available in ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ October 16, *1886



* 



And best of all, the remedy was sold by James Vernor (Extreme lower right corner of ad)


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the fun of it ...

If this illustration doesn't boggle your brain, nothing will!

By the way, 1886 is the earliest date I can find for Cooch's Mexican Syrup and/or the Cincinnati Drug & Chemical Company who produced it. 


*​1886*


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Since he was more a Florist at that time I think it's gotta mention Florist. Maybe it sez "Confection & Florist" with the & a backwards 3 ?



Leon

A lot depends on when the photograph was taken. I posted some information earlier that indicated James Vernor installed plate glass windows at his 235 Woodward Avenue location in 1877. The photo we're working with does not show full, plate glass windows, but segmented windows. 

Keith might have more information and dates, but the earliest reference I can find that in any way connects James Vernor with the words "Florist" "Floral" "Flowers" is *1879* 

Here's the photo we're currently working with - Notice the segmented pane glass windows ...




And here's the photo that shows the plate glass windows 



Look close and you'll see a sign inside that might say "La Roses" or "La Rosca"

(Which might be a brand of cigar) 

Or, the sign might say something else entirely, and what appears to be an 'R' might be a 'P' or possibly some other letter. ???


----------



## SODABOB

In other words ...

1. If James Vernor installed new windows in 1877, then the first photo dates earlier than 1877

2. If James Vernor installed new windows in 1877, then the second photo dates 1877 or later

3. If James Vernor didn't get into the floral trade until about 1879, and the first photo dates earlier than 1877, then the first photo would likely not have any reference to flowers on the building.


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

219 Woodward Avenue changed to 235 Woodward Avenue in 1869-1870

Which means the photo we're working with has to date during 1869-70 or later. But 1869-70 at the earliest. I don't recall ever seeing a photograph that shows 219 Woodward Avenue - But maybe Keith has one? 



Footnote:

James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu dissolved their partnership in 1868


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> A few of the ads I saw said ...
> 
> For *Every Ailment and Disease
> 
> *



'
I noticed what looked like a y also which is why I disagreed with the Experianced you mention. with the Every Ailment & Disease it fits better with my idea of a & sign where they used the backwards 3, LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

I read somewhere that, that picture was taken in 1876 but don't know how accurate it is? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I got to thinking about James Vernor's competition and discovered during the mid 1870s there was one drug store in particular that seemed to advertise more than anyone else. And not with just small, two-line ads, but ads like the one shown here that appeared quite often during that time period. James Vernor did very little advertising. Most of what's found pertaining to him (about 90%) has to do with his involvement with the city council. In fact, there are so many articles about him as an Alderman, its surprising he had time to operate a drug store. 

Anyway, here's one of Frank Inglis' typical ads, this one being from 1876. Maybe some of the wording is similar to the parts we're not sure about on James Vernor's building.

*1876* 

 

Notice on this Detroit map that Vernor's drug store and Inglis' drug store were only a few blocks apart ...


----------



## SODABOB

Frederick Stearns was another major advertiser. But many of his ads are like the one shown here that seem to focus on the variety of different goods he sold and not on prescription drugs.

Notice the "Mortar & Pestle" illustration

*1879

*

Even this three-liner is more about goods than prescriptions. Notice "Reasonable Prices"

*1875

*

Reminder: Frederick Stearns was originally part of Higby & Stearns where James Vernor worked prior to and just after the Civil War.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Do you have one of these business/advertising cards? Date unknown but has 235 Woodward Avenue ...


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith
> 
> Do you have one of these business/advertising cards? Date unknown but has 235 Woodward Avenue ...
> 
> View attachment 175398



No, I don't have that particular card. I have some other designs, but not that one. Maybe it's just another assumption, but I have always assumed he dropped the florist business and druggist business (and cigar business) when he moved to 33 Woodward.


----------



## VernorsGuy

The problem with so many of the photographs we're looking at is that they have been reproduced multiple times and each time lose some of their sharpness. 

The next photograph challenge is attached. It's still the James Vernor Drug Store. 

However, this time it's the writing under the windows. In the early drug store photo (with smaller panes of glass) there is writing printed under each window. I'm pretty sure in a better example of this photo (attached - but let me clarify - this is NOT a better example of the photo) the green arrow would be pointing to "patent medicines". The question is what does it say by the red arrow? I'm hoping for "soda fountain", of course! "Vernor's Ginger Ale" would be even better!

It's possible I'll find a better quality example of this photo when I go to the Detroit library tomorrow.


----------



## iggyworf

Sorry guys,my worked picked up a lot so I have not been able to spend much time on this myself. But keep up the good work.

And thanx for keeping the Vernors torch burning!


----------



## hemihampton

Has any body ever read this Article? It's Interesting. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Has any body ever read this Article? It's Interesting. LEON
> 
> .View attachment 175420



Leon

I posted a link to that article several weeks ago. I realize not everyone has time to open and read all the links I post, but that particular article appeared in a journal called ...

*The Bulletin of Pharmacy  ~  1919
*
Here's the link again ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=Vernor Ginger Ale&f=false

*Have you seen this?

*


----------



## SODABOB

I messed around with this for over an hour and still not happy with all of the fonts, but its the best I can do as a final draft ... 



Here's the link where I found it on eBay. Scroll to the bottom of the seller's page and click on the picture for the (mouse micro-zoom) I bought a copy of the reprint for $19.00. (The seller has more copies available)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190818700165?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If you look at the picture on eBay using the super-zoom, notice ...

1. What appears to be sheets of newspaper on the edge of the sidewalk.

2. What appears to be a pile of gravel/asphalt in front of the wagon.

I wonder if the newspapers on the edge of the sidewalk were to protect it from oil and they were in the process of surfacing the street? If it was the first time the street got paved and we can determine when that occurred, then we might be able to date the photograph within a month or so.


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> Leon
> 
> I posted a link to that article several weeks ago. I realize not everyone has time to open and read all the links I post, but that particular article appeared in a journal called ...
> 
> *The Bulletin of Pharmacy  ~  1919
> *
> Here's the link again ...
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=I...AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=Vernor Ginger Ale&f=false
> 
> *Have you seen this?
> 
> *View attachment 175421View attachment 175422





Sorry.  Either I missed that link or forgot I seen it? I do look at most of the links, But, sometimes I say I'll come back to it later to read & forget to.


----------



## SODABOB

Check this out!

Detroit Free Press ~ *​May 29, 1874* 

"Paving Clifford Street"


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

There are lots of articles about paving Clifford Street, but some of it is kind of confusing. It looks like the work was completed in the fall of 1874. I'm not sure if they used stone, but based on what I've seen so far, it appears they did. I'll report back later after I find something more specific.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S. 

The confusing part is that Vernor's Drug Store was on the corner of Woodard Avenue and Clifford Street. I'm pretty sure the long section of street we see is actually Woodward Avenue, with Clifford Street being out of view behind the wagon. So I guess what I need to do is try and determine when they surfaced that part of Woodward. And its possible they did both at the same time. ???


----------



## hemihampton

SODABOB said:


> P.S. ~ P.S.
> 
> The confusing part is that Vernor's Drug Store was on the corner of Woodard Avenue and Clifford Street. I'm pretty sure the long section of street we see is actually Woodward Avenue, with Clifford Street being out of view behind the wagon. So I guess what I need to do is try and determine when they surfaced that part of Woodward. And its possible they did both at the same time. ???




Yes, Your right about that. Woodward is a big main street while Clifford is more like a little side street. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

It appears they also paved portions of Woodward Avenue in 1874, but they did it in sections so its confusing when they did which parts. Based on what I've seen so far, it appears the majority of the work was done in 1874. I'm just not sure! But if it is roadwork I'm seeing in the photo, the 1874 date would certainly fit.


----------



## SODABOB

Its too confusing trying to figure out when certain sections were paved. So I'm giving up on it. But the majority of the roadwork stuff I'm seeing is from 1874, so I'm going to leave it at that as my best guess. However, because I'm not certain its roadwork I'm seeing in the photo, its kind of like a wild goose chase until that can be confirmed. Regarding the rail tracks in the photo, that's even more confusing because the rail lines go all the way back to the 1860s, if not earlier. Anyhoo, I think the safest bet is simply to date the photo ...

circa 1870s 

(Which is good enough for Government work!)


----------



## SODABOB

Last but not least ...

The only ads I can find pertaining to James Vernor selling ...

*"Picks Cigars"

*... are from *1875 and 1876. *

Of course he could have sold them earlier and/or later than that, but those two years are the only time I can find when he actually advertised them.


 

*1876 Picks AD

*

And if you think that's a ginger ale label on the Picks sign, all I can say is ...

(To be continued)


----------



## hemihampton

Bigger Pic.


----------



## SODABOB

Gracias' Amigo ~ Looks Great!

When my print arrives (in about a week) I'll try and capture some super close ups.


----------



## iggyworf

Bob I like what you have here!


----------



## SODABOB

Rich / iggy

Thanks!

I'm still trying to date the photograph and discovered ...

1. The Painting & Wallpaper business next door is 233 Woodward Avenue

2. It was owned and operated by Fred Bamford

3.There is a clear paper-trail that shows he was located there for only four years 

4. Those four years were ...

1874 to 1877

Here's one of his typical ads ... April 18, 1875



In the photograph you'll see his name at the top of the building 

*FRED BAMFORD

*


----------



## SODABOB

Hence ...

Unless something is discovered to refute it, I am assigning a date to the photograph of ...

circa ​1875 & 1/2


----------



## SODABOB

And, yes, our buddy James Vernor was selling "Picks" cigars in 1875. In fact, 1875 and 1876 are the only two years I can find where he advertised them. With this ad being the earliest I can find ... 

Detroit Free Press ~ November 21, 1875



Reminder: I posted a 1876 ad earlier, which is the latest ad I could find where he advertised selling "Picks"


----------



## hemihampton

I'm going with the 1876 I read somewhere before. LEON.


----------



## VernorsGuy

I have good news, bad news and interesting news!

Good news: yesterday I was able to personally look through the entire James Vernor recipe book. There's a photo attached of me wearing gloves taking a look at some incredible history. 

Bad news: there was no formula for ginger ale extract. There were several recipes for making ginger ale using the extract. But, nothing more detailed than what we've already seen printed on the label of extract bottles. So, I don't think this was his absolute original recipe book. However.....

Interesting news: Wow! What an amazing recipe book. It spanned a time period from the drug store days to beyond. There were formulas for perfumes, palmade (hand cream), laxatives, toothpaste, hair dye and many more drug store type items. The handwriting inside is elegant. Just beautiful. But, not dated! Every original entry - and there are a couple hundred of them - is beautifully written but not dated. Subsequent entries, changing a formula for example, are dated. The earliest "change" date was 1895. However, the handwriting looked different so I assume it was James Vernor II. I was surprised they were still tweaking formulas for pineapple syrup, strawberry syrup, and others after they closed the drug store. It made me think the Vernor's Soda Fountain didn't just serve Vernor's in the later years. In looking at the evidence, they must have been a full-service soda fountain - at least when they first opened it at 33 Woodward. 

I took some photos of the recipe book with a good camera, but have not uploaded them to my computer yet. I'll post them when I do.

I also went to the Detroit Public Library and looked through the Vernor's artifacts files. Unfortunately, the soda water publication I had posted here earlier wasn't in the things I looked through yesterday. I was hoping to find a date. 

Bottom line: I had a great time and felt a sense of awe that I was touching (well, with gloves on) something that James Vernor I and II wrote in and worked from for many years. The pages were stained with the items they were making. It was a wonderful journey back in time. But, the answers I was looking for are still questions. I learned some things, but not the things I went to learn.


----------



## iggyworf

That is awesome Kieth. Hope too see the pics soon.


----------



## hemihampton

I would guess the original recipe for the extract was a highly guarded secret. Just like Colonel Sander's Kentucky Fried Chicken, ect, ect, ect. Locked away in Vernor's personal home Vault or Fort Knox LOL.  LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

I have been gone for a few days and enjoyed reading your post when I got home this morning. Because I haven't had time to digest it yet, I will comment on it later. In the meantime, I thought the following might interest you and be something to look for to add to your Vernor's collection. It also involves my attempt to date the attached photo, with certain indicators suggesting it was taken in 1877 at the earliest.

Notice the sign in the window for "*Centaur Liniments"*

 

And compare the sign to this one ...

 

I have just begun researching the brand, and all I can tell you about it at the moment is found on this link where the author says the brand "arrived on the scene in 1871"

http://thequackdoctor.com/index.php/centaur-liniment/


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record ...


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I wonder if James Vernor was so proud of his new windows that the picture of him standing outside was taken shortly after the work was completed in June or July of 1877?

(The June 16, 1877 snippet uses the words "putting in" which suggest the work was either in progress or to be done sometime soon)


----------



## SODABOB

This snippet is from the Detroit Free Press and dated June 17, 1927 and is a "This Day in History" column. Or as they call it, "Turning Back the Pages"  

However, I'm thinking June *17th *is a typo and they meant June *16th*. I looked in the June 17, 1877 newspaper and could not find any mention of the new windows. But it does appear in the June 16, 1877 edition, which I just posted ...


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> I have good news, bad news and interesting news!
> 
> Good news: yesterday I was able to personally look through the entire James Vernor recipe book. There's a photo attached of me wearing gloves taking a look at some incredible history.
> 
> Bad news: there was no formula for ginger ale extract. There were several recipes for making ginger ale using the extract. But, nothing more detailed than what we've already seen printed on the label of extract bottles. So, I don't think this was his absolute original recipe book. However.....
> 
> Interesting news: Wow! What an amazing recipe book. It spanned a time period from the drug store days to beyond. There were formulas for perfumes, palmade (hand cream), laxatives, toothpaste, hair dye and many more drug store type items. The handwriting inside is elegant. Just beautiful. But, not dated! Every original entry - and there are a couple hundred of them - is beautifully written but not dated. Subsequent entries, changing a formula for example, are dated. The earliest "change" date was 1895. However, the handwriting looked different so I assume it was James Vernor II. I was surprised they were still tweaking formulas for pineapple syrup, strawberry syrup, and others after they closed the drug store. It made me think the Vernor's Soda Fountain didn't just serve Vernor's in the later years. In looking at the evidence, they must have been a full-service soda fountain - at least when they first opened it at 33 Woodward.
> 
> I took some photos of the recipe book with a good camera, but have not uploaded them to my computer yet. I'll post them when I do.
> 
> I also went to the Detroit Public Library and looked through the Vernor's artifacts files. Unfortunately, the soda water publication I had posted here earlier wasn't in the things I looked through yesterday. I was hoping to find a date.
> 
> Bottom line: I had a great time and felt a sense of awe that I was touching (well, with gloves on) something that James Vernor I and II wrote in and worked from for many years. The pages were stained with the items they were making. It was a wonderful journey back in time. But, the answers I was looking for are still questions. I learned some things, but not the things I went to learn.



Keith

I'm trying my best to find a time-period reference for Vernor's Ginger Ale earlier than 1884, but the only thing earlier than 1884 is the "About January 1st 1880" that's on the 1911 Trademark document. As you know, I do not consider histories written in the early 1900s and later as being totally credible. However, I do consider time-period references from the 1800s to be 100% credible. The following is a timeline of sorts that illustrates various aspects of Vernor's Ginger Ale advertising starting in 1884 (Which is still the earliest reference I can find). 

1884 ~ Detroit, Michigan

 

1885 ~ Alpena, Michigan

 

1885 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ Hull Brothers



1887 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ James E. Davis & Co.



1893 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ Immel-Kirchberg Co., Ltd. 



1894 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ McWilliams & Moore 



1894 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ "Your grocer keeps the extract"

Note: There are numerous ads identical to this one, all of which are from 1894

 

1895 ~ Detroit, Michigan ~ Hurdy & Gray




Questions:

1. Why is 1884 the earliest time-period ad I can find for Vernor's Ginger Ale?

2. If James Vernor produced and sold ginger ale prior to 1884, then why can't I find any time-period references earlier than 1884? 

3. If James Vernor had a soda fountain at 235 Woodward Avenue and was serving ginger ale, then why can't I find any pre-1884 time-period references to support it? 

4. Why were other stores serving and/or selling Vernor's Ginger Ale extract between 1884 and 1895, and even advertising it, but apparently not James Vernor himself? (Other than the identical 1894 ads that only appeared in 1894 and not in 1895 or later)

Footnote: 

Starting in 1896, things really took off for Vernor's Ginger Ale and the time-period advertising fully supports it!


----------



## SODABOB

In other words ...

If Vernor's Ginger Ale was produced and served during a 17 year time period between 1866 and 1883, then (in my opinion) it shouldn't involve mere guessing to prove it! If its true, then there should be proof somewhere! But where?


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I really hate to say this, but I'm not entirely convinced the sale of 1,500 glasses of ginger ale actually took place at James Vernor's drug store. That seems like a lot of individual servings to take place at one small drug store in a single day. I'm kind of wondering if it might have occurred at a fair or some other type of outdoor event? 

*June 28, 1884*



24 Hours = 1,440 Minutes
12 Hours = 720 Minutes
8 Hours  = 480 Minutes

1,500 servings equates to ...

24 Hours = About one serving every minute during the entire 24 hours.
12 Hours = About two servings every minute during the entire 12 hours.
8 Hours  = About three servings every minute during the entire 8 hours.


----------



## iggyworf

Good work Bob.   I would like to say again that we are not trying to discredit the man. Just researching history and trying to find out the facts. We all agree that he was a great business man and propelled his Vernors Ginger Ale to great heights.


----------



## hemihampton

Reading that 1919 article it sez or sez Vernors sez he's been making his ginger ale for past 40 years. That would make it 1879. Which is similar/close to his trademark saying since about 1880. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich and Leon

Speaking of the 1919 article ...

As near as I can determine, its the first of its kind and possibly the earliest so called history ever published about James Vernor and his ginger ale. Its also possible that its the origin for all of the other histories that have ever been published. 

It appeared in ... 
*
The Bulletin of Pharmacy  ~  Published by E.G. Swift, Detroit, Michigan  ~  January, 1919
*
Here's the article in its entirety, consisting of four pages ... (Not counting the cover page) 

Note:  I have cropped certain paragraphs from it, that I will post shortly, and would like to discuss in more detail. So please allow me a few minutes to post the cropped portions before making additional comments. Once you see the cropped portions, I'm sure there will be a lot to discuss. Thanks!

By the way, this is possibly the first time the article has ever been posted in a savable format, so please be sure and save it to your files for easier reading.












(I'll be back momentarily with the cropped portions I'd like to discuss)


----------



## SODABOB

Notice on the first page where it says ...

*"way back in 1868"

*Note: 

As we know, James Vernor established his first drug store in 1866 in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu. So I'm assuming the 1868 date refers to when James Vernor ventured out on his own after dissolving the partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu. I do not believe it means to say that James Vernor established his 219 Woodward Avenue drug store in 1868. 

 

On the first page we also find where it says ...

*"$800 in 1868 to $10,000 in 1870"*


Note:

This slightly contradicts the next part because it definitely uses the dates of 1868 and 1870. Whereas the next part suggest some different start dates. This is the part I think needs to be clarified and discussed the most!



Notice on page four where James Vernor Jr. says ...
*
"We have continued to make it the same way for over forty years"*

Note:

There are a number of ways to interpret the meaning of "over forty years" 

1. If, like Leon said, you take away the full forty years from when the article was published in 1919, that suggest 1879 as a start date for when James Vernor began making his ginger ale. 

2. However, the actual wording says "over" forty years. So, if we allow the benefit of a doubt and use a total of forty-nine years, that places the start date at 1870. Which still falls short of the 1868 date. 

3. If we use the 1919 date and take it all the way back to 1866, that comes to a total of fifty-three years. 

4. But James Vernor Jr. didn't say over fifty years. He said "over forty years." So, is the "over forty" a typo or is it accurate? 

 


(Please contemplate all of the above and we'll discuss it in detail later)


----------



## SODABOB

Follow Up / Personal Interpretation ...

We will likely never know exactly what James Vernor Jr. meant when he said "over forty years." But I'm thinking if it was forty-five years or more, that he would have said "over forty-five years" and not "over forty years." With that said, I'm thinking it was forty-four years at the most. And when you take the the 1919 date of the article and deduct forty-four years, it takes us to 1875. 

Regarding the part where James Vernor Sr. said ...

"Our gross receipts in this particular department jumped from $800 in 1868 to $10,000 in 1870. The business continued on the upward trend until 1896, when I disposed of my store so that I could devote all my time to it."

... I'm not sure how to interpret that part yet, because, as I said earlier, it slightly contradicts what James Vernor Jr. was saying about it being "over forty years." 

In other words ...

It appears that James Sr. and James Jr. were not on the same page when the 'interviews' were conducted and James Sr. was saying one thing and James Jr. was saying something else entirely. It appears that James Jr. was eluding to sometime in the mid 1870s, whereas James Sr. was being specific about 1868. So I really don't know what to make of it at the moment and will need more time to contemplate it.


----------



## hemihampton

I would think the over 40 years could mean 41, 42 or 43 but that's it. Because of it was 44 he would of said nearly 45 years & if 46,47  over 45 years & 48 or 49 nearly 50 years? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

I'm okay with *42 *years. Which equates to ...

1919 - 42 years = *1877

*But what about James Sr's 1868 and 1870? If it was a typo for 1878 and 1880, then I wouldn't question it. Which raises the question again ...

Why is James Jr. hinting at the mid to late 1870s, but James Sr. seems to be specific about 1868 and 1870?


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> The problem with so many of the photographs we're looking at is that they have been reproduced multiple times and each time lose some of their sharpness.
> 
> The next photograph challenge is attached. It's still the James Vernor Drug Store.
> 
> However, this time it's the writing under the windows. In the early drug store photo (with smaller panes of glass) there is writing printed under each window. I'm pretty sure in a better example of this photo (attached - but let me clarify - this is NOT a better example of the photo) the green arrow would be pointing to "patent medicines". The question is what does it say by the red arrow? I'm hoping for "soda fountain", of course! "Vernor's Ginger Ale" would be even better!
> 
> It's possible I'll find a better quality example of this photo when I go to the Detroit library tomorrow.



I received my Vernor's drug store print yesterday and discovered ...

1. It does say "Patent Medicines" under the right side window. I can't make out what it says under the left side window.



2. The small sign above says ...

*E.M. Wright Dental Rooms

*

E.M. Wright moved into 235 Woodward Avenue in ...

Detroit Free Press ~ August 13, *1872

*

And was located there until at least 1889, which is the latest date I can find for him at 235 Woodward Avenue

This is from a 1877 Detroit Directory under the Dental/Dentist listings ...


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the fun of it ...


----------



## SODABOB

Here are some scans of my print. I tried various resolutions but the 300 (DPI) turned out the best ...





600 (DPI) / Blurry


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

After studying the images more closely, the word on the left appears to be ... 

*PRESCRIPTIONS


*


----------



## hemihampton

SO, Whats on the sign under Selected Materials? I see the Word BY. Whats next under the BY?  Comepetant? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> I messed around with this for over an hour and still not happy with all of the fonts, but its the best I can do as a final draft ...
> 
> View attachment 175423
> 
> Here's the link where I found it on eBay. Scroll to the bottom of the seller's page and click on the picture for the (mouse micro-zoom) I bought a copy of the reprint for $19.00. (The seller has more copies available)
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/190818700165?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
> 
> View attachment 175424



I'm confident that my imagery/draft is 99.99% accurate!


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> After studying the images more closely, the word on the left appears to be ...
> 
> *PRESCRIPTIONS
> 
> 
> *


That looks like an accurate interpretation. Too bad! Was hoping for "Vernor's Floats 10 cents!"


----------



## VernorsGuy

I have some fun photos for you. None of them will help us with the dating question. But, you'll love these photos.

Photo 67: Recipes for cologne. Note the handwriting. This is James Vernor I. No dates.
Photo 52: Ginger Ale Syrup - Different handwriting. James Vernor II.
Photo 53: Ginger Ale Syrup written by James Vernor I.
Photo 49: More James Vernor I ginger ale syrup.
Photo 43: Interior of Detroit Public Library.
Photo 31: Photo of a young James Vernor - similar to era to store front photo.


----------



## SODABOB

Keith

Fantastic book (and pictures of it). 

I can imagine you excitement being able to "turn the pages of time."  Do any of the notations, such as the Rx, indicate if the product was exclusive to and/or patented by James Vernor? 

I came across the following regarding the James Vernor collection at the Detroit Public Library ...

[FONT=&amp]5.5 linear ft. : (11 boxes, 1 large manuscript)
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
This collection is open for research use.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Papers include family letters, biographical information and letter of James Vernor to his brother, Charles in Detroit during the Civil War.



Have you been able to go through all 11 boxes?


[/FONT]


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> Keith
> 
> Fantastic book (and pictures of it).
> 
> I can imagine you excitement being able to "turn the pages of time."  Do any of the notations, such as the Rx, indicate if the product was exclusive to and/or patented by James Vernor?
> 
> I came across the following regarding the James Vernor collection at the Detroit Public Library ...
> 
> [FONT=&amp]5.5 linear ft. : (11 boxes, 1 large manuscript)
> [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
> This collection is open for research use.[/FONT]
> [FONT=&amp]Papers include family letters, biographical information and letter of James Vernor to his brother, Charles in Detroit during the Civil War.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you been able to go through all 11 boxes?
> 
> 
> [/FONT]



Over the years I've been through those boxes. This past week, it was just one of the boxes. They aren't readily available to the public. You have to check them out and then you can only look through one envelope at a time from each box. So, it's a time consuming process. Most of what I looked through this last week was from the estate of James Vernor I granddaughter. There were some very old family photos in there.


----------



## VernorsGuy

Regarding the question about Rx meaning exclusive or patented by James Vernor, I'm not sure. What I did see in the recipe book were recipes attributed to other people. There were several that named doctors by name such as "Dr. Smith's cough syrup" or something like that. So, if not a patent, there seems to have been some honor in the profession toward those who came up with winning formulas. 

There were other recipes that had people's names attached. I figured those were special formulas made for a specific customer.


----------



## SODABOB

Note: I acknowledge having said earlier that I was dropping out of the discussion involving the 1866 vs 1880 debate as to when James Vernor first developed and began selling his ginger ale. But do to recent developments surrounding the 1919 article I feel it would be a contradiction on my part to have come so far and not point out what I feel are some noteworthy aspects of the article. Especially when you take into account that the 1919 article could very well be where a lot of the controversy originated from. To the best of my knowledge, the 1919 article is it first so called history ever published about the Vernor legacy.  

Speaking of which ...

The following is found on the last page and last paragraph of the article. Notice where it says ...

*"later buying the latter's interest and continuing until he embarked in the ginger ale business."

*Isn't that another way of saying ... 
*
James Vernor and Charles L'Hommedieu dissolved their partnership in 1868.  Vernor then continued to operate the drug store on his own for several years until he developed and began selling his celebrated ginger ale.

*


----------



## SODABOB

Of course, that still doesn't explain James Vernor's use of the 1868 and 1870 dates! I think what it boils down to is, which parts of the 1919 article are accurate and which parts might be myth? In other words, do you believe the father or the son? Or is it possible the reporter made some errors, typos, misquotes?


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

To all who read this:

What is your interpretation of ...

​"... continuing until he embarked ..."


----------



## VernorsGuy

Bob-

If you can't believe a 1919 or later article when it says Vernor's started in 1866, you can't believe it when it says it didn't. We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century. So, I'll attach the same doubt to the 1919 article. 

Everyone-

Look at the attached photo from ebay. The company is W.H. Prittie. In 1878 he dissolved his partnership with another druggist and set out on his own. (Sounds kind of like the thing to do back then!) In this ad he's serving ginger ale out of a siphon. His address is 131 and 133 Woodward. So, he's about halfway between Vernor's Pharmacy and the river. Must be a big enough place taking up two storefronts. Looks like he manufactures everything you need to bottle ginger ale in siphons, too. 

He retired in 1887. He died in 1907 in California. Apparently he moved out of Detroit due to the murder of his store clerk. 

It's possible Vernor just stayed "bottling" in siphons until those turn-of-the-century glass bottles. The word "bottling" is just a historical perspective. A siphon is certainly a bottle. It also makes sense that if the only space Vernor had was the ground floor of his new place at 33 Woodward in 1896 he probably didn't have enough space for a real bottling machine. The 1900's postcard makes it look like most of the space was for soda fountain customers.


----------



## SODABOB

I'll have some more comments to share later, but for now want to re-post this other article from 1919 that followed the other one six months later in July of 1919.


----------



## SODABOB

VernorsGuy said:


> Bob-
> 
> We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century.



Keith

I concur! 

That's what I've been hoping someone would say since this discussion started several months ago. Please don't think ill of me for asking, but ...

1. Exactly where did you come up with the information for your 2008 book that, for the most part, seems to support the 1866 origin? 

Especially where you said  ...

2. "Over 140 years ago, James Vernor served the first glass of Vernor's in his pharmacy at 235 Woodward Avenue in Detroit."

And go on to say ...

3. "There are conflicting stories ..."  

4. "So he opened a soda fountain within his drugstore." 

5. "Vernor's Ginger Ale still originated in 1866 but probably was not perfected until about 1870." 

Is that information, and similar statements, from time-period (late 1860s) publications? If not, then where did come up with it? 

Footnote: 

Please know I am not trying to offend anyone, especially you! I'm just genuinely curious where you and others, such as Lawrence L. Rouch's 2003 book, "The Vernor's Story ~ from Gnomes to Now" got the information for your books? 

Respectfully, 

Bob



By the way, if you click on the little blue arrows at the top of transferred quotes, it will immediately take you to the page and post where the quote originated.







I'm not familiar with this book/magazine other than it was published in 1966


----------



## VernorsGuy

Let me clarify a few things before I answer those questions:
 - I'm enjoying this discussion and am not offended at all by the questions. This has been great fun. 
 - I never questioned the 1866 origin date of Vernor's Ginger Ale. My book only questions whether the first extract was made before or after the Civil War. I've always been okay with Vernor messing with the formula and that it wasn't instantly perfect.
 - I have seen more historical resources during this blog discussion than I ever did while writing the book.
 - They might have come in handy! I've learned some amazing details about James Vernor in the last couple months. But, my 1866 start date opinion hasn't changed. (I believe Vernor's Ginger Ale started in 1866.)
 - I'm more comfortable with assumptions than Bob and I've seen enough evidence here to believe that Vernor & L'Hommedieu operated a soda fountain. The recipe book also leads me to believe that their soda fountain was just like every soda fountain serving many different flavors. One of them was ginger ale. 
 - Vernor was just trying to make a buck. If his Pick Cigars had been a bigger hit, he would have been known for that. Somehow, of all the things he made and sold, ginger ale was the one where he made his fortune.

Now the answers:
1. I got all my information from Vernor's history from a time period we now refer to as BSB. (Before Soda Bob)
2. "Over 140 years ago" in 2008 was 1866. Consistent with BSB Vernor's history.
3. Conflicting stories about if the extract was made before or after the war. 
4. I still believe he had a soda fountain in 1866. Just because we don't see ads right away doesn't mean anything. We don't see Vernor's Laxative ads either.
5. Interviews with Vernor Davis leaned to the theory that the first extract was after the war and he worked on it for a few years. 

As for my quote "_We're looking for proof from the late 1860's, not from the 20th century." 

_That simply means you can't have it both ways. On one hand, we've heard you can't use an article from the 1920's that says Vernor's started in 1866 as proof that it did because it's not a source in the right time period. If you buy that argument, you also can't use a 1919 article that portrays a non-1866 start date as proof of anything. 

The bottom line is, we have no proof either way. 

Now, there's no need to repost all the articles that can prove the 1880's. That only proves the 1880's, it doesn't disprove 1866.


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> To all who read this:
> 
> What is your interpretation of ...
> 
> ​"... continuing until he embarked ..."


Simply means when he went full time just into the Ginger ale business...?...


----------



## VernorsGuy

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> To all who read this:
> 
> What is your interpretation of ...
> 
> ​"... continuing until he embarked ..."



The previous part of that sentence confirms the meaning of this quote:"entered into the retail drug business in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu buying the latter's interest and *continuing until he embarked*...." I'm with Canadacan. Vernor continued the retail drug business until he embarked on ginger ale full time.


----------



## iggyworf

VernorsGuy said:


> The previous part of that sentence confirms the meaning of this quote:"entered into the retail drug business in partnership with Charles L'Hommedieu buying the latter's interest and *continuing until he embarked*...." I'm with Canadacan. Vernor continued the retail drug business until he embarked on ginger ale full time.



I also agree with this statement.


----------



## SODABOB

I'm having major computer problems and it took me two days to get online and post this. It could crash again any second. I'll be back if/when possible. So, if I don't reply on a timely basis, you'll know why. 

In the meantime ...

All things considered / Based on current evidence ...

Because we have no time-period (1860s-70s) documentation to support that Vernor's Ginger Ale existed before 1880-1884, I am leaning toward the possibility that ... 

Hires Root Beer might be the oldest continuously produced soda pop in the United States ...

1876

(Stay tuned for a new thread coming soon)

Recently acquired book ~ 128 Pages 

(Only known example that I'm aware of) 



Pre Crown Finish Bottles



The Crown Finish/Closure/Sealing Device was Patented by William Painter in 1892



Earliest confirmed ad I'm aware of that depicts a Crown Finish Hires Root Beer bottle ...

Life Magazine ~ 1897





Possible 1897 Bottle



(To be continued in my new thread)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Because I still want to give away a free ACL Book ...

The first person that can find and post confirmation of another 1885 Hires Diary (other than the example I recently purchased on eBay) will receive the free ACL Book. Confirmation for another 1885 Hires Diary needs to be unquestionable. If you already acquired one of the ACL Books from me, then I'll send you another one that you can keep or do with as you please. 

Signed,

Sodabob


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the link to my new thread, titled ...

*Hires Root Beer ~ vs ~ Vernor's Ginger Ale

**(Which brand is America's oldest continuously produced soda pop?)*

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?687359-HIRES-ROOT-BEER-vs-VERNOR-S-GINGER-ALE


----------



## SODABOB

Error / Please Ignore


----------



## hemihampton

Picked up this Vernor's bottle today at a Antique store. Appears to have a 1930 date embossed near the bottom. other side is embossed Registered. Bottom embossed Vernor's ect, ect. Nothing else on the outside. I assume it had a paper label at one time. I don't remember seeing another one with this 1930 date. I've seen lots of Vernor's bottles but don't go out of my way to look at them all. Curious if anybody else has this bottle or knows if it's a tough one or common? THANKS, LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

That is pretty cool. I have never seen one with the '1930' near the bottom like that.


----------



## hemihampton

iggyworf said:


> That is pretty cool. I have never seen one with the '1930' near the bottom like that.





Thanks Iggy, Wonder what Bob or Keith have to say? LEON.


----------



## hemihampton

While we are on the subject of Vernors, How many people seen or have the Quart with the pure food 1906 statement on front? Is it rare or common? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Another cool one. I have the smaller one but not that quart size.


----------



## hemihampton

Bob hasn't posted in like a Month. Odd. Hope he's OK? LEON.


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah I noticed that also. But from what I know about him, he does other research projects and such. I hope he chimes in soon though.


----------



## hemihampton

I PM'ed Bob but have not heard back from him. Hope he is OK? LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

Please see my new post "Message from Sodabob"


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Picked up this Vernor's bottle today at a Antique store. Appears to have a 1930 date embossed near the bottom. other side is embossed Registered. Bottom embossed Vernor's ect, ect. Nothing else on the outside. I assume it had a paper label at one time. I don't remember seeing another one with this 1930 date. I've seen lots of Vernor's bottles but don't go out of my way to look at them all. Curious if anybody else has this bottle or knows if it's a tough one or common? THANKS, LEON.
> 
> View attachment 178443View attachment 178444




LEON

Sorry for the delayed reply - computer problems ...

I found this 1927 example and suspect there are also 1928s and 1929s. I don't know anything specific about them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-192...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## hemihampton

Welcome back Bob. Yeah, I seen that one on ebay & kinda liked it but did not like the high $13 shipping. Especially when Toledo is so close to Detroit. LEON.


----------



## SODABOB

My computer is still up and running - But could crash any moment - If I disappear again, you'll know why - And will return if/when possible. In the meantime ...

If you thought some of my earlier observations were far-fetched, this next one is a real doozy. Check it out! 

Detroit Free Press - April 7, 1868  

*Discussed earlier. But uncertain if the Arctic soda fountain was used by Vernor or just sold by him. 



I'm not certain what model of Arctic fountain the article refers to, but suspect it might have been the "Cottage" pictured here - or one similar to it? 

1. 1869 Patent



2. Similar Arctic fountain - 1871 Ad



3.  "Cottage" model - 1872 Ad



4. Cropped close up of 5th knob "Ginger / Arctic" 



5. Actual "Cottage" Arctic Soda Fountain that sold in 2012 for $15,000

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/10853142_190-the-cottage-marble-soda-fountain





(To be continued)


----------



## SODABOB

Now for the Doozy / Far-fetched part ... 

1.  Vernor's Drug Store - Circa late 1870s

*Notice the segmented window panes. 



2. Vernor's Pharmacy -  Circa 1877 or later*

*Earlier I established that the segmented windows were replaced with plate glass windows in 1877

** I recommend saving this picture to your files where it can be zoomed and tinkered with for detail. 

*** Study this picture closely and you will notice that some of the imagery on the windows is reflected from across the street - especially the trees, etc. 



3.  Here's the same picture that I tinkered with and lightened. 

*Notice the area I circled in red where we see "something" that appears to have "round knobs" 
**Also notice the pictures of the Arctic soda fountain that I inserted. 

 

4. Here's a cropped close up of the so called apparatus with knobs. 

*Notice where I placed the red X and what 'might' be a fountain handle above the knobs



5. Now compare the handle on the 1872 Arctic fountain to the so called handle in the window image.

*Save and zoom and you should notice a similarity between the two "handles" 




Long story short / Questions ... 

1.  Is it even remotely possible that the "thing" in the circa 1877 window is an Arctic soda fountain - or possibly some other brand of soda fountain?

2.  If it is a soda fountain apparatus of some type, what does that tell us, if anything?


----------



## SODABOB

3.  Or am I just seeing things that don't exist and the so called fountain in the window is just a reflection from across the street? 

Answer: 

I don't think its a reflection - but other than that I can't say for certain what it might be - and we may never know for sure. But if it is a fountain, then that means James Vernor did indeed have a soda fountain in the front of his store around 1877 or later. But whether it was actually used or was just for sale, like the one mentioned in the 1868 ad, we may never know for sure. What say you?


----------



## SODABOB

*​For future reference ... Page 18 - Post # 343*






SODABOB said:


> Speaking of "glass," I came across the following that I thought was kinda interesting ...
> 
> This newspaper snippet is from the Detroit Free Press and is dated June 17, 1927. Its one of a series of articles the newspaper used to run about what happened on a particular day in the past. In this case, the particular day it refers to is June 17, 1877, which is exactly 50 years to the day when the 1927 article was published. Because of the way its worded, I'm assuming it refers to actual articles the Detroit Free Press published and is sort of like a "This day in history" column.
> 
> Anyway, notice it says ...
> 
> "James Vernor is putting in a glass front to his drug store at 235 Woodward avenue."
> 
> ( I looked for the original 1877 article but have not been able to find it - at least not yet)
> 
> View attachment 174661
> 
> Take a close look at the glass front in this early picture (exact date unknown to me but often described as circa 1870) and notice the windows appear to be in segments ...
> 
> View attachment 174659
> 
> Now take a close look at the glass front in this next picture (which I also do not know the exact date for) and compare it to the windows in the last picture. Notice they are no longer segmented but are full panes of glass ...
> 
> View attachment 174660
> 
> When you take into account what is says in the newspaper article and compare the pictures, it leads me to suspect the last picture was taken sometime after June 17, 1877, which might help to narrow down the date a little more, such as "circa 1877" (at the earliest).


----------



## SODABOB

I don't know if its my computer or what, but my last post just shows Attachment numbers but no actual images. In case its not just me who sees the Attachment numbers, here's the 1927 article about the new windows ... 

Detroit Free Press - April 17, 1927


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record ...

If you open this link that I posted earlier about the Arctic Soda Apparatus, you'll see where it was Patented on ... 

June 30, 1863

... so its possible this was the same model that James Vernor was selling in the April 7, 1868 ad.

https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/10853142_190-the-cottage-marble-soda-fountain

Here's a picture of one of the plates, which appears to be the same type of plate on the Arctic fountain that sold in 2012 for $15,000 shown in the link. 





Notice the plate on the side of this Arctic Soda Fountain


----------



## SODABOB

Interesting Side Note ... 

I searched every Detroit, Michigan newspaper I could find between 1866 and 1880 and the absolute earliest mention of "*Ginger Ale*" I could find in any way, shape or form is from ...
*
The Detroit Free Press ~ May 21, 1871* 

"Imported Belfast"  /   "At Bush & Graves"


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

The earliest mention of James Vernor in connection with Ginger Ale that I can find in the Detroit newspapers still stands at 1884 ...

Detroit Free Press ~ June 28, 1884




Footnote: 

I continue to challenge myself (and everyone else) to find a time-period reference (other than the 1911 Trademark that says "About January 1st 1880) that's earlier than 1884 and connects James Vernor in any way, shape or form with Ginger Ale. And if someone does find an earlier time-period account, my offer to send them a free "ACL BOOK" still stands. 

"Time-Period" = Actually published between 1866 and 1880, and not from one of the later so called historical accounts.


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of various Vernor historical accounts, here's one of the better examples. And, yes, I continue to challenge the 1866 claim. Despite the fact that James Vernor was considered by many to be an upright and honest man, I still believe the 1866 date refers to when he started his first drug store and not when he developed and first sold his celebrated ginger ale. I honestly believe the dates got tangled together somehow and that once the 1866 date was connected with ginger ale that it never got untangled, at least not until now. 

Note:  

This is a PDF file that is user friendly and can be printed, etc. The Vernor story starts on Page 3 and continues through Page 6. It then jumps to Page 24 for its conclusion. There is a typo at the beginning that says 1886 but should be corrected to say [1866] 

*The Pharmaceutical Era  ~  January 1922*


http://books.googleusercontent.com/...BAQnqlEhj10eyKM3C3s00eV-2aveOoSZMXKVDRuQPMMxA


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

When I said the PDF file was "user friendly" that also includes the ability to Copy/Paste. Here's a copy/pasted portion from page one of the Vernor story. This might shed some light on those who believe that Soda Fountains in drug stores were commonplace in the early to mid 1860s ... 

"Early Ideas About Soda" 

"To comprehend in a full measure the success of James Vernor, it is necessary to revert back and picture the conditions of the drug business and soft drink trade when he was laying the foundation for his reputation and fortune. There are very few living who can visualize the dress and habits of the people and the commercial conditions in 1866. The drug store was largely an emporium for the sale of patent medicines, paints and window glass. Very few stores, even in the large eastern cities, had soda fountains and these were only operated during the summer months."


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## hemihampton

Good Detective work Bob. LEON.


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## iggyworf

Bob, the link seems to have been broken. It comes up error?


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## SODABOB

iggyworf said:


> Bob, the link seems to have been broken. It comes up error?




Iggy / Rich

Try this link. The PDF version can be accessed from the task-bar options ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=4...ernor pharmaceutical era January 1922&f=false


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## VernorsGuy

It’s been quite a while since I posted anything. I recently bought another very early Vernor’s paper label bottle. The glass is different than ones I have posted here before. Previously, we collectively decided the earliest “marked” Vernor’s bottle was one that was embossed only on the bottom with Vernor’s Ginger Ale. It did not have the VGA logo. This new purchase has nothing except a couple of 1’s. Take a look at the photos. 

Here are are my three full label diamond-label Vernor’s bottles, circa 1911:



The bottom of all three. The new purchase is in the middle.



The one on the right has a newer label and much more embossing. So, here are the top of the left two bottles:



I have previously admitted to not being a bottle expert. However, to my eye, both of these bottles look like the top was applied later. The seam stops before the bottom lip. Here are the bottoms of the two pictured above:

 

The one on the left has been posted here before. The one on the right is my new purchase. Hopefully you can make out the two number 1 s on the bottom. One is in the center and the other above it to the left. 

Any thoughts on this? The two numbers are not lined up with each other. But, maybe it identifies a company or an era.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you!

Keith


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## iggyworf

Excellent bottles! thanx for posting them. I have never seen a Vernors bottle like that one, with those number markings on the bottom. They seem to be very faint. could it be just a 'stock' kind of bottle that they used back then?


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## SODABOB

Keith

Good to hear from you again. Its been almost two years since any of us posted to this thread. I can't recall if we discussed this previously, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of your bottles were made in and imported from Europe, especially from England. Particularly those with an applied finish/closure. The so called "slop over" aspect I see on at least one of your bottles is generally an indication the bottle is of European origin. (Notice where I placed a red arrow on the center bottle). If I were to thoroughly research the origin of your bottles that have an applied finish/closure and feature the "slop over" I would take a close look at European bottles made between circa 1905 and 1920. Another thing I would do is to see if you can find a reference where James Vernor might have had contact with European bottle makers and/or European producers of ginger ale. Based on what I know about the subject, it appears that ginger ale originated in Europe. Following are some attachments that might shed some light on subject. 

Your bottles with red arrow pointing to "Slop Over" 



Sample of applied finish/closure with "Slop Over" 
From Sha.org



From Sha.org. Notice mention of "ginger ale"


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## SODABOB

P.S.

Any bottle with an unusually "long neck" might also be an indication of a bottle made in Europe.


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## SODABOB

Keith

You probably already know this, but I was reading through Lawrence L. Rouch's book "The Vernor's Story" and on page 12 noticed where he wrote the following ...

"Two beverage firms in the home of Vernor's ancestors, Grattan (of Belfast) and Cantrell and Cochrane (of Belfast and Dublin), developed ginger ale around 1852." 

I'm still leaning toward the possibility that some of your bottles were made in Europe and imported to the United States and thought the Belfast and Dublin locations mentioned above might be a connection if James Vernor's ancestorial roots did indeed originate in Europe.


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## hemihampton

As far as I know most if not all the early European Ginger Ale bottles had the round bottom or Torpedo type. Not like the Vernors bottles. LEON.


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## SODABOB

The Times ~ London, England ~ April 6, 1909

(This brand used a cork closure wrapped in foil)





The Times ~ London, England ~ July 29, 1919

(This brand used a Crown closure)


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## hemihampton

In the 1800's they had the round bottom but when then eventually moved away from them & went flat I don't know. Here's a 1870's Ginger Ale I dug.


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## VernorsGuy

Thank you! Great information. Yes, the numeral 1s are faint. In fact, at first I thought there was nothing on the bottom of the bottle. You have to tilt it just right to catch the embossed numbers. If nothing else, it looks like this could be the earliest non-siphon non-extract Vernor’s bottle if it is an English import. Thanks for the help.


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## SODABOB

I haven't taken the time to re-read all 885 post in this thread so I'm not sure if the first newspaper page shown below was posted or not. All I know about the page is that it was in my photo files and described as having been published in 1916. The page does not have a date on it that I can see, but it does have an article titled "International Y.M.C.A. Opens Cleveland Today."  So, in an attempt to possibly confirm the 1916 date, I found the article below from May 12, 1916 that confirms there was a Y.M.C.A. convention held in Cleveland in 1916 that started on May 12th. If all of this is accurate as I believe it to be, then it appears that Vernor's Ginger Ale was being sold in a tall paper label bottle at the time. I'm not sure how this fits into the Vernor's bottle timeline, but I thought I'd share it for consideration.


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## hemihampton

This Past Summer driving through Detroit I seen this new Vernor's Sign Painted on the side of this Building. Cool. LEON.


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