# Clover Pontil ?



## deenodean (Nov 9, 2012)

I dug this black glass beer bottle, cup mold in June 2010. Cup molds were made from the late 1700's to 1860ish.  It has what I read is a ' Clover Pontil ', where the excess glass left by the pontil  looks like a piece of clover spice.  Anyone ever heard of this term? The bottle leans like the Leaning Tower of Pisa, it has a very deep pontil scare with blueish color at the pontil left behind, it is very heavy in weight and extremely whittled. The imperfections can only be appreciated by holding it up to a light.  Unfortunately the top was broke of, but I found it and glued it back on. I'd say it is a British made. Thanks for looking.


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## deenodean (Nov 9, 2012)

I am trying to make the photo of the bottle smaller...[8|]


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

Hey Danny, nice bottle.  I've been looking into the pontils on these black glass bottles and trying to close the debate on the re-fired pontil.  What I have found is that the bottles were empontiled with the process that resulted in what we now call a sticky ball pontil.  I believe the strange misshapen kick-ups in the base were the result of a tool being used to make the kick-up, prior to the pontil being attached.

 A clover pontil is a metallic pontil mark.  It has been attributed to Stoddard.  It seems they started cutting grooves into the pontil rod to make it easier to detach the bottle from punty rod.  This resulted in a few different strange metallic pontil marks, one that looks like a clover, or just a four piece mark, an 8 piece mark that looks like a star, and a few others.


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 16, 2012)

I think the four pronged ones are also called lobed pontil marks.


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## surfaceone (Nov 16, 2012)

> A clover pontil is a metallic pontil mark. It has been attributed to Stoddard. It seems they started cutting grooves into the pontil rod to make it easier to detach the bottle from punty rod. This resulted in a few different strange metallic pontil marks, one that looks like a clover, or just a four piece mark, an 8 piece mark that looks like a star, and a few others.


 
 Afternoon, Daniel & Matt,

 I had never heard the term "cliover pontil" before, did a little looking, and saw nothing illuminating. I'm getting confuseder by the moment.

 Could you guys, or anyone that's got some clover examples, please photo illustrate this...



 
"Fig. 16. â€” Pontils and Blowing Iron.

 a, Puntee; b, spring puntee; c, blowing iron." From.​


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 16, 2012)

There is a four lobed pontil in this post but its not as apparent as the iron ones.
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-290114/tm.htm

 They are fairly uncommon. Some large gothic food bottles used them.


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

They are most often seen on large Gothic pickles and some large meds.  The link you've provided is to a modern piece Matt, I'm not sure what that thing is!  Here is a picture of a Clover pontil, attributed to Stoddard.  You can see as I traced in red the image of a clover, which is really just the Punty being divided into four sections, all part of one piece...


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

here is another strange cross hatched type


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 16, 2012)

Bill Lindsey calls them a quatrafoil pontil.  I see them rarely on Dr Townsend Sarsaparilla bottles.
  The one below I wonder about though. I'm thinking it was just a round pontil rod end that had multiple contacts due to the beveled bottom. Need a good photo of one of the big pickles. They illustrate it better.


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

I believe its just a round rod on the Townsend's Matt.  I haven't been able to come up with any other pics of a Clover, It would be nice to figure out which glass house used them, besides Stoddard...


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 16, 2012)

I seem to remember seeing one on a Vaughn's Lith med.  Its ext uncommon on medicines.


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## deenodean (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks for your replies Matt & Matt...Perhaps it is a re-fired pontil mark. I really dont know. I'll have to find where I read the term ' clover pontil '. Regardless,  there is a blob of glass on one side of the center kick up point..
 Too bad the bottle top was broken ( as with most of the stuff I find here ) ...It is the only cup mold I have.


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

I do see the blob of glass, must be remnants of the pontil.  Please dont go away with re-fired pontil though, the re-fired pontil is total hogwash!  The kick-up in the base was likely caused by a tool used to make the kick up.

 Here are two bases with kick ups.  The marks in the base are from the tool, not from a pontil.  The only evidence of a pontil are the rough edges towards the outside of the kick-up.








 Here in this picture are two bases from a very similar mold, one with and one without the kick-up.  The one on the left is likely what these bases looked liked before a kick-up tool was used.  It is without a pontil.


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## deenodean (Nov 16, 2012)

Excellent photos Matt..The bottle on the right in the 1st picture resembles mine. It also has a nice blob of glass.. Do you think my bottle is British or American made?


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

Thanks Danny.  I'd go with British for sure.  The majority of Black glass bottles found over here in North America are British.  It seems the American bottles just didn't last or were not made in the same quantities because they are rather tough to come by although common.  I see one for every hundred British bottles.  The American manufacturing techniques were quite different, and in my opinion stand out boldly from the British glass.


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## surfaceone (Nov 16, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> 
> They are most often seen on large Gothic pickles and some large meds.  The link you've provided is to a modern piece Matt, I'm not sure what that thing is!  Here is a picture of a Clover pontil, attributed to Stoddard.  You can see as I traced in red the image of a clover, which is really just the Punty being divided into four sections, all part of one piece...


 
 Hey Matt,

 Thanks for the great illustration, and helping to flesh this out in my mind's eye. So this was accomplished by filing, or otherwise cutting the business end of the punty rod?



> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> 
> here is another strange cross hatched type


 
 This one is almost like a signature. Very unique.

 Thank you, gentlemen, for a very educational thread.






 "Evidence that the tip of the iron rod was patterned is sometimes seen in the mark left behind, like the hatch markings shown in the iron pontil mark pictured to the left on an 1850-1860 calabash bottle.  Other iron pontil scars can show evidence of a rod with a four quadrant head, i.e. a quatrefoil, and many other shapes (Jones 1986). .." Thanks Bill.


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## surfaceone (Nov 16, 2012)

Gentlemen,

 I'd be pleased to have your thoughts on my old black bottom.


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

That cross hatched example is very cool!  Yes, they are like a signature, no two rods would be exactly alike.  This is what is so exciting about them is that they will help us indisputably attribute certain bottles to a certain glass house and possibly even certain dates.  So far a few have been found to have been used at Stoddard, that being the type of clover I've posted, and an 8 piece star type, or more like a pie, cut into 8 pieces.  All I have seen look to have been made by cutting into the head of the punty rod.


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## tigue710 (Nov 16, 2012)

That looks to me like a typical kick-up from a black Surf.  Here is another picture of a Townsend's base with what looks like a clover or quatrafoil  pontil.  This one is easily recognized in my opinion as just a round pontil broken up by the shape of the base.  It would be unnecessarily time consuming and difficult to line the pontil up with the sides of the base every time.


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## baltbottles (Nov 17, 2012)

here is a late 1850s American Blackglass ale.

 Chris


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 17, 2012)

> This one is easily recognized in my opinion as just a round pontil broken up by the shape of the base.


I suspect most are do to the contact points of the base. The exception would be the rectangular ovals that had the sides of the rod cut off the accommodate the shape better.
 Also Daniel, as in Chris's picture. Are you sure it's a cup mold and not TPM? It looks like a later UK bottle to me.


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## sandchip (Nov 17, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> ...I'm thinking it was just a round pontil rod end that had multiple contacts due to the beveled bottom...


 
 Bingo.  The answers are usually the simplest ones.


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## epackage (Nov 18, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  sandchip
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 I have to disagree, there are clearly four angled indents to the base, a round punty would have pushed the base up round and not squared off like this IMO...


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## druggistnut (Nov 19, 2012)

> I have to disagree, there are clearly four angled indents to the base, a round punty would have pushed the base up round and not squared off like this


 
 I agree with Jim and Matt. The angled sides would have made contact and the (ball section) in the center would never have touched and left residue.
 Bill


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 19, 2012)

It must have been slightly conical to hit the center and the sides.  I cant imagine they would take the time to exactly line up a four lobed pontil device. That doesnt seen consistent with fast mass production. Time wasted is money lost.


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 19, 2012)

I'm still wondering if the OP got what they needed or replied to the TPM question I asked.
 I wish I had Willies book or a better description of Rickets machine and the bottle but I don't. I still think it looks like a TPM and a later adaptation of a process like the Ricket but this seems to have gone away from that question altogether. [8|]
 I guess I'll never know.[]


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 19, 2012)

> I'm still wondering if the OP got what they needed


 
 I never figured out what "clover spice" was. Is that like the spice cloves? Or like a 4 leaf clover?
 I just sort of went in the direction of the 4 leaf clover or four lobed pontil since it was familiar.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> It must have been slightly conical to hit the center and the sides.  I cant imagine they would take the time to exactly line up a four lobed pontil device. That doesnt seen consistent with fast mass production. Time wasted is money lost.


 
 Quoted for truth.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> 
> That cross hatched example is very cool!  Yes, they are like a signature, no two rods would be exactly alike.  This is what is so exciting about them is that they will help us indisputably attribute certain bottles to a certain glass house and possibly even certain dates.  So far a few have been found to have been used at Stoddard, that being the type of clover I've posted, and an 8 piece star type, or more like a pie, cut into 8 pieces.  All I have seen look to have been made by cutting into the head of the punty rod.


 Partially true but remember, these glassblowers moved from Glass House to Glass House and brought their tools with them.


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## tigue710 (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
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 True true, good point Jeff.  Still a lot can be told with these individual marks...


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## epackage (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> It must have been slightly conical to hit the center and the sides.  I cant imagine they would take the time to exactly line up a four lobed pontil device. That doesnt seen consistent with fast mass production. Time wasted is money lost.


 Matt or Jeff can you tell me how such a rod would have made these 4 distinct angles creating 4 seperate panels on the bottom, I'm just not grasping what it would have looked like to you? I'm just thinking if it were round how did these panels get so defined instead opposed to the whole base just pushing up as on a typical pontil, didn't something have to define those angled panels? Thanks my friend...


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
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 The four panels are part of the mold design.  They were created before the pontil rod was attached to the base.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
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 Agreed Matt - there is much to be told but we need to wary of making specific attributions when the entire process was in constant flux.


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## epackage (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks Jeff, I knew someone with more experience regarding pontils would know, it's appreciated...Jim


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 19, 2012)

correct, the base of the sarsaparilla mold had angled panels.
 I believe the end of the pontil rod was not the typical spherical iron pontil. I think they used one that was modified to be a bit more conical in shape. This allowed getting a good contact in the center without deforming the nice flat panels. But it did touch slightly at the closest points on the flat panels. I doubt this was a very good scheme and it was probably a pain to dislodge the rod. All we know for sure is it was seldomly used (which often indicates its wasnt a great idea[]).


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> correct, the base of the sarsaparilla mold had angled panels.
> I believe the end of the pontil rod was not the typical spherical iron pontil. I think they used one that was modified to be a bit more conical in shape. This allowed getting a good contact in the center without deforming the nice flat panels. But it did touch slightly at the closest points on the flat panels. I doubt this was a very good scheme and it was probably a pain to dislodge the rod. All we know for sure is it was seldomly used (which often indicates its wasnt a great idea[]).


 I disagree with this statement in its entirety.  

 Or not.

 The one thing I might say (not to disagree with you but rather to expand upon your thoughts) is that the INTENT was to create a base profile that in theory made it easier to remove the pontil rod - rather than touching at all points it would in this instance only touch on some points, lessening the potential for damaging the bottle while removing the pontil rod.  

 Thanks much for describing the process in greater detail than I Matt.  Funny, I've been on here for several years now and I've never disagreed with anything you have said about glass manufacturing.  It's your politics I can't stand

 And for those without a sarcasm meter, that's a joke.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Thanks Jeff, I knew someone with more experience regarding pontils would know, it's appreciated...Jim


 No worries Jim - as another Jim said earlier, it's the simple answers that are usually the best answers (paraphrased).


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 19, 2012)

That's an interesting way to think about it.  I wasnt there so everthing I say is conjecture.
 Whatever their intent , I have to conclude it wasnt very successful or it wouldnt be so rare.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> That's an interesting way to think about it.  I wasnt there so everthing I say is conjecture.
> Whatever their intent , I have to conclude it wasnt very successful or it wouldnt be so rare.


 This is similar to my thinking about the molette - a tool used to push up the base so that the entire blowpipe or pontil rod would not stick to the base (resulting in a "tube" pontil scar) but rather a process in which only the outer edges touched the base so that it was easier to remove the rod.  My sense is that these indented bases were created at or about the time or commensurate with the creation of the snap case.  For that reason I am not sure that they are as rare as they are short lived.  I was not there either of course so this is just my .02.


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 19, 2012)

what I find odd about the snap-case is it was around for a long time but only apparently sprang into widespread use around the early 1860s. Was it due to the culture of optimized manufacturing that was required during the Civil War period? 
 The snap-case was obviously a great improvement in bottle production but did it take a war for everyone to see the light?[]


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## kungfufighter (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> what I find odd about the snap-case is it was around for a long time but only apparently sprang into widespread use around the early 1860s. Was it due to the culture of optimized manufacturing that was required during the Civil War period?
> The snap-case was obviously a great improvement in bottle production but did it take a war for everyone to see the light?[]


 Not everyone wants to embrace a technique that would enable less skilled workers to produce bottles at a similar rate.


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## RED Matthews (Nov 19, 2012)

Hello all of you  I think that since it was a two part mold, there is a good chance it had a plate bottom with the four diagonals formed in the bottom cavity.  One would need to see the seam around the four sides up on the heal to confirm this, but it seems logical to me.  A regular balled end pontil could have made this mark that way.  RED Matthews


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## tigue710 (Nov 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
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 Molette, that's a word I was looking for earlier in this post while attempting to explaining kick-ups.  Wasn't it around for a long time and used to make the kick-up bases Jeff?

 Also pertaining to one of my earlier posts, do you think the Clover pontil I pictured and explained as attributed to Stoddard is actually Stoddard?  I possibly jumped the gun on that one...


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## bottlekid76 (Nov 20, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
> 
> here is a late 1850s American Blackglass ale.
> 
> Chris


 
 Great discussion! I always enjoy learning more about the empontiling process.

 Chris - I have that same nice ale, love that example. []

 ~Tim


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## kungfufighter (Nov 20, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
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 There is definitely a clover shaped scar on some Stoddard made products - the photo you posted may be one but I have seen others that were better defined.  Let's ask Mike George to post some pics - I believe he has a Jewett's with the scar we are looking for.


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 20, 2012)

I know I've seen it well defined on pickle bottles but cant find any photos in my files.
 Hopefully someone else can dig up a photo.


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## baltbottles (Nov 20, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bottlekid76
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 Tim, mine looks identical with the iron pontil and central mold vent dot on the base. We dug 4 of them out of a Brooklyn Ny pit last spring. They are an interesting bottle and hard to attribute where they might have been made.

 Chris


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## deenodean (Nov 20, 2012)

Just got caught up on what I started!! 

 What is a TPM Cowseatmase? Whatever it is I am sure my bottle is a cup mold. Only one seam, it is  around the base of the shoulder. 

 Antique Meds-- my thought of what a clover pontil is... it is a blob of glass next to the center dot that looks like a clover spice, not a 4 leaf clover. I read that somewhere, I'll have to dig back into the archives to see where it is written.


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## tigue710 (Nov 21, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
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 Chris, there is an ale shape very similar to this one attributed to Stoddard, but these two do not look like Stoddard glass...


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 21, 2012)

> What is a TPM Cowseatmase? Whatever it is I am sure my bottle is a cup mold. Only one seam, it is around the base of the shoulder.


TPM= three part (or piece) mold. Sometimes the seams aren't clear but can usually be found going from the shoulder part up the neck some. The cup mold was all but abandoned by the the time of the iron pontil but there were a few exceptions.
 Sorry about the redirection here Dan, it happens sometimes.


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## deenodean (Nov 21, 2012)

I am 100% sure it is a cup mold. There is only 1 seam. 
 No problem with the re-direction!


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## AntiqueMeds (Nov 21, 2012)

a three part mold could be considered a cup mold, just one with a really tall cup portion[]

 For medicines, cup molds have been used through most of the 19th century, THey became extremely popular roughtly around the 1890s when post molds started being phased out.


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## deenodean (Nov 21, 2012)

Well Cows , I have to eat 'Humble Pie'.  [:-]  U R RITE!! I put the bottle up to the fluorescent light above my computer desk and sure enough, there are 2 very faint lines going from the top of the shoulder to the bottom of the neck, making this bottle a 3 piece mold and NOT a 2 piece mold as I had thought. MAN, it is soooo hard to tell under normal daylight but still I had to look good and hard to see it. The black glass is sooo back it s very difficult to see.  U and A-Meds know your stuff! []Now I have to find myself a 2 piece mold bottle!!


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