# colored pontil medicine-cure



## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

What do you guys think of this bottle my friend and I dug on Friday. Any info would be appreciated.


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

2nd picture


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

3rd picture.


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

4th picture.
 Also the bottle reads.
 1st panel-Prepard by
 2nd panel-Dr.Braddee
 3rd panel-Cordial Balm
 4th panel-of Health


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## passthebottle (Nov 24, 2007)

That my freind is one nice looking bottle, looks to be an unusual color, what color would you call it.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 24, 2007)

That's quite a rare and early medicine.  It doesnt seem to be listed anywhere especially in that color. From what I can tell it was made by John F Braddee in Uniontown PA as early as the 1830s.
 If someone offers you a couple thousand for it just laugh at them and say make me a real offer [][]


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

I have the bottle on Ebay starting price is $500, do you guys think that is to low? Also thanx, GuntherHess for the feedback.


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## bearswede (Nov 24, 2007)

Here's some info from the Arkansas Gazette from 1836:



The Cordial Balm of Health 
  			An excellent medicine, prepared and sold only by me or my authorized  			agents. It is acknowledged to be peculiarly efficacious, to all  			inward wastings, loss of appetite, indigestion, depression of the  			spirits, trembling, or shaking of the hands or limbs, shortness of  			the breath, consumptive habits; it thins the blood, eases the most  			violent pains of the head and stomach, and promotes gentile  			respiration.

  			Those who have the care and education of females, or are of  			sedentary habits, should never be without the cordial balm of  			health, which removes diseases of the head, invigorates and improves  			the mind, and quickens the imagination. And it is recommended to the  			weak, the relaxed and debilitated, as a speedy restorative; also in  			consumptions, spittng of blood, or loss of blood, pain in the breast  			and side, inward weakness or loss of flesh, also in cyspepsias. It  			is valuable in diseases attended with such symptoms of difficulty of  			breathing, sense of cold, as if water was poured on the patient,  			flying pains in the arms, limbs, back, and belly like in the gravel;  			the pulse variable, sometimes slow at others quick, frequent  			sighing, and sometimes a feeling of suffocation, as from a ball or  			lamp, alternative fits of crying; the stomach frequently disordered,  			the body weakened, paleness or emaciation, eyes sunk in the head.  			The value of this medicine is daily demonstrated, in removing the  			most dangerous effects of nervous debility, and nothing has given it  			greater fame than its success in those complaints which take a deep  			root on the condition, and are so fatal to the happiness of mankind;  			it is also good for the whooping cough. I have never used this  			valuable medicine in my practice without success in the diseases  			mentioned.

  			Dose - from one third to a whole tea spoonfull one hour before  			meals, with light diets and mild drinks.

  			Dr. John F. Braddee, Uniontown, Pa.

  			The following are selected from numerous
  			RECOMMENDATIONS
  			This is to certify, that my wife was in the last stage of  			consumption, and so far gone that she lost her hearing, and I had to  			life her about the same as a child. The place of my residence is  			Wheeling, Va. where I has applied to the most eminent physicians in  			that place, all to no purpose, and she still grew worse, until I  			made out to get her to Uniontown, where I placed her under the care  			of Dr. J.F. Braddee, in that place, where she commenced taking this  			cordial balm of health, and she is now able to return hom and is  			nearly as well as ever, and out of danger, and when I left her in  			Uniontown, I did not expect she would ever return again. I wish you  			to make this known for the benefit of the public. Given under my  			hand and seal, this 14th day of November 1834. 

  			George Carter [Seal]
  			and wife, [Seal]

  			Test. Walter Carlie
  			Wm. Eskry

  			Receive my thanks for the great benefit you medicine has rendered  			me. The people here talk a great deal about my recovery; it was the  			thought impossible.

  			From Elizabeth Beamer, dated Franklin, Westmoreland county, Pa.  			September 9, 1834

  			For farther particulars and a host of recommendations, see the  			wrapper of the bottle.

  			Sold by McLain & Badgett, Little Rock; L.N. Clarke, Morrison's  			Bluffs; John Henry & Co., Columbia; George S. & C. Bernie, and W.W.  			Fleming, Fort Smith; W.W. Fleming, James Forbe, Joseph Bennett & Co.  			Mouth of White river.

 06/07/1836 THE PUBLIC MEETING,


 Ron


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## GuntherHess (Nov 24, 2007)

I hate to tell you this but you will probably only get about 1/2 of what you should get for it selling it on ebay. A great bottle like that should be sold at a major glass auction house like Glass Works auctions. I watch realized prices constantly and there is a big difference for these high end pieces. 
 If it was mine I would quickly end the ebay auction and consign it with a real bottle auction company of your choosing. Just my opinion of course, its yours to do with what you wish. Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 24, 2007)

I looked at the ebay auction. A few things I noted... You only accept paypal. A lot of people paying that type of money are going to want to pay with check or money order. Some of the big buyers seem to be anti-Paypal.  You should try to take some photos in daylight outside to get the real color. If you set a reserve price there is no point really setting a high start price. Reserve auctions seem to work better if you set a low start value. You have a low feedback and are only selling the one bottle. That tends to make sellers hold on to thier wallets a bit tighter..
 Not trying to beat on you, just giving you a different view from a buyer's perspective.


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## tigue710 (Nov 24, 2007)

very nice, I'll give ya 550!  Take it to Heckler, he gets the big money rare bottle buyers.  Glassworks will get you good money the regular stuff, Heckler will get you good money for the good stuff....


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## LC (Nov 24, 2007)

If it is listed on eBay, I can not find it. Did you end the auction, or is it still active ? And if still active, what is the auction number ??


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## GuntherHess (Nov 24, 2007)

I wont post a link to the auction, I'll leave that up to Blade if he wants to.
 He didnt list it with Braddee in the title, that may be why you didnt find it.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 24, 2007)

cool bottle.         where did you dig it?

 and im not sure how many people collect colored pontil meds from Uniontown PA, so i dont think a couple thousand is a bad offer from someone who needs it.

 Matt


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## LC (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks Matt, stands to reason I did not find it, I did do my search on Braddee.


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

I took everyone's advice and ended my listing on Ebay. Any opinions as to which auction house to use to sell the bottle would be greatly appreciated.  THANX FOR THE FEEDBACK !


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## madman (Nov 24, 2007)

hey blade that is simply beautiful !!!  wow! mike


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## downeastdigger (Nov 24, 2007)

Ron you are a credit to the hobby, Blade is lucky you're out there.
 Blade, congrats on the awesome find


> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> 
> I wont post a link to the auction, I'll leave that up to Blade if he wants to.
> He didnt list it with Braddee in the title, that may be why you didnt find it.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 24, 2007)

> I took everyone's advice and ended my listing on Ebay. Any opinions as to which auction house to use to sell the bottle would be greatly appreciated. THANX FOR THE FEEDBACK !


 
 That's probably a smart move. You might not ever dig another bottle that nice and you should get the best deal you can for it. Hecker's and Glass Works are both fine companies as far as I can tell. I wasnt that thrilled with the bidding format for Heckler's last auction but that may just be my perception. I havent dealt with any other auction companies lately so I cant comment on the others out there.
 You should contact a couple and pick who you feel comfortable with. I'm sure they will all be interested in that bottle. You may need to be patient since they only run auctions a couple times a year. If you need money bad another option is to take it to a big bottle show like Baltimore and see what offers you can get.

 When you do sell it I would really appreciate you letting me know the value for my price guide. I doubt I will see another one sell for a looooong while. Of course I totally understand if you dont want people to know what you got for it. 

 Just to give you a very rough sense of value ,an I COVERT'S BALM OF LIFE in olive green sold for $4150 early this year and I think I like you bottle better


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## Oldtimer (Nov 24, 2007)

I'm So jealous right now I could scream! SUPER nice bottle! killer! I'd NEVER sell that until I was forced to.

 I was into the _old_ stuff myself a few days back..... found shards of an pontiled amber bottle...and 4-5 clay pipes in a pile..I'm goin back, count on it..


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## tigue710 (Nov 24, 2007)

Heckler and Glassworks will both be running an auction in January.  I recommend Heckler, he has a client list surmised of all the top collectors.  But be sure you to let them know you wish to sell the bottle in an absentee auction.  That is one sweet find!

http://www.hecklerauction.com/

http://www.glswrk-auction.com/


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## blade (Nov 24, 2007)

You guys have been great with the info, I really appreciate it! GuntherHess - when I sell the bottle I will gladly give you the selling price + I'll let everyone no which auction house I decide to use so you guys can follow it.


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## druggistnut (Nov 25, 2007)

Here are some bottle auction house links for you.
  Keep in mind, there are several who charge 12% commission (or more), to the buyer AND the seller. That's how a few of them can take digging trips overseas, several times a year. I would also closely watch the descriptions they give on items. One well-known auction house never gives any pictures of damage they MIGHT describe. The color descriptions are questionable, too.  I won't buy a thing from them. I also called the owner early one Saturday morning (at home) to see what his reaction was. He reacted like a BUSINESS man, not a bottle hobbiest. Get my drift?
 I have had very good dealings with Dennis at bottle auction.com   He has gone out of his way to provide extra photos, etc, and his fee only goes one direction (as it should). http://www.bottleauction.com

 Here are some more, in no order of preference.

Bottles and More - Catalog Lots 1 to 15

American Bottle Auction - Catalog Lots 560 to 574

Glass Works Auctions - Catalog Lots 1 to 15

Norman C. Heckler and Company ~ Antique, Bottle and Glass Auctioneers


 I hope you fellas uncover some more beauties- be sure to let us know.
 Bill


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## druggistnut (Nov 25, 2007)

Follow-up to my last post.
 There are other auction houses out there, my list wasn't all-inclusive. I either haven't looked at other house sites or have forgotten them.
 Here are a couple interesting posts by Glenn Poch. You take what you need from them, but I was happy to have read them, when I did, BEFORE I ever consigned or bid on anything.

 "As you may be aware,  there are a select number of Antique Bottle Auction Houses in the United States: Glass-Works, Pacific Glass, Norman Heckler, Skinner (Glass) and what was once known as Harmer-Rooke and then Charles G. Moore Americana. Only of recent has this last auction house comes under investigation for a number of unscrupulous actions including embezzlement. Charles Moore allegedly has vacated his business office without paying many of the consignors and failing to ship some of the items sold in prior auctions. The total of one consignor alone is over $100,000. It was later learned that he may be residing in Arizona, and even more disturbing he is rumored to be starting a new antiques business in this state. I have yet to find a story that would give Mr. Moore a beneficial outlook. Talking to a few of Chuck's former Employees provided an insight to his credibility and lifestyle, it seems that he was living a lavish lifestyle and could not afford to pay his bills during his finally auction years, feel that the number of corrupt individuals in this hobby is very minimal, lets keep it there and show that there will be no tolerance for this type of action within our hobby. Needless to say if some quality bottles start showing up, please take time to know whom you are dealing with and make sure that none of these bottles were already paid for."

 "ANOTHER THOUGHT ON BOTTLE AUCTIONS

 [ol][*]Auctions of all types have been around forever. They serve two functions: 

 [ul][*]they help to dispose of estates (or otherwise unwanted collections) quickly
 [*]they help get the highest prices for top pieces [/ul]glassCo, and I would presume all other bottle auction houses, is used for both. I would stress that option a) is used just as often as option b). Most pieces in any auction are not "the top" pieces, they are just regular, run-of-the-mill pieces. 

 [*]Auctions level the playing field. 
 In Auction No. 7, there were many pieces we could have sold with a phone call. The left-handed pint Beaver, the 1737 sealed mallet, the Pressburg Warners all could have sold by a phone call. But by that means of selling, most collectors would NEVER have the chance to purchase quality pieces. A good example was our previous auction, No. 6, where we sold a rare Canada West medicine at auction. It could have quickly slipped into the hands of one of Canada's premiere collectors. As it was, the top three bidders on the piece were newer collectors, without the "connections", who never would have had the chance to own these pieces without the open auction process. 

 [*]Auctions and prices. 
 Do auctions raise the prices of pieces? Probably yes, for the most part. Why? Because they stimulate DEMAND. In your newsletter No. 18, you mention one collector who was finally able to buy a Beaver jar, in Canada, from their computer in the states, via bottle auction. And yes, the price of Beavers is probably going up. If the Red Book on a quart Beaver is $50 (just guessing here), and they are now trading at $80, that rise is due to the fact that a larger American market finally has ACCESS to Canadian jars. The quantity has remained the same, just more collectors are interested in adding a certain piece to their collection. Competition has been stimulated across a wider marketplace. In the purest form, if you are against this competition and the subsequent rise in prices, look at your own collection. You would have to argue that Americans should not be able to buy Canadian fruit jars, and that in fact, they should be restricted to buying pieces from there own state or even their own hometown in order to force competition down. And that's not about to happen! And there are bargains every auction. If every auction house maintained current prices on there site like glassCo does, you could scan the auction every day as closing day comes, checking out the bargains and buying stock, traders or just plain bargains for your shelf! 

 [*]Problems with auctions, and regulation. 
 There are always problems with auctions. You must be able to trust your auctioneer, as integrity is the only thing an auction house has going for it. I have been in contact with Kevin Sives of the FOHBC about setting up some sort of an ethics committee for the bottle community, similar to the NIA (National Insulator Association) ethics community, to police auctioneering and general selling in the hobby. We would like to see this put in place, and accreditations given to certified auction houses. Anyone can open a mom and pop bottle auction house on the web (we did, although we won't be a mom and pop until about August 15th!). Certification would mean that the FOHBC ethics community could review your bid sheets any time a sale is questionable. 

 [*]Things to be wary about: 

 [ul][*]The auctioneer owns the piece you are trying to buy. 
 This is the single largest problem in the auction industry. The auctioneer is trying to sell you their own property. How do you get burned? Because you are bidding against a phantom. You bid 60, the auctioneer tells you they have a bid of 65...and so on as far up as they think they can take you. If they guess right, they get the maximum value for their piece. If they lose, hey, they just recycle it again two or three auctions from now. Since they own the piece, they are not responsible to a consignor to give the consignor money for the piece that didn't really sell. glassCo's policy is to neither sell nor buy bottles in its auctions (which really hurts sometimes when something I love goes thru our auction!). See, if you consign a left beaver to me, and I bid someone up, and they drop out...I have to pay you for the beaver jar. I now own it. So I'm not going to bid anyone up! But if I as the owner of the auction house buy the beaver from you before the auction, then I know what I paid for it, and I can sell 

 [*]The auctioneer bumps your bid close to, or all the way to, your protected bid. 
 In absentee auction houses, as at other auctions, you can leave an advance bid which is higher than the current level. There is always the danger that the auctioneeer will bid you up higher than the next highest bid, PARTICULARLY if the auctioneer owns the piece! They could always reason that you would be willing to go to the certain bid level anyhow, so what's the harm? The harm is that the auction process is corrupted by those actions. There is only one way to police this, which is by enforcing the above mentioned certification and bid sheet review by a central ethics committee. Before anyone who reads this has the warning bells ringing in their ears about previous bids they have left, remember...most auction items are highly contested, and it is pretty normal for your bid to get pushed to its limit, particularly on lower value (<$200) lots. Having sold a couple thousand pieces thru auctions, I know that most lots are won by one bid increment. In the last auction, someone left a bid of $210 on a piece, and ended up winning it for $210. Which can seem fishy. But I have the underbidder's email "$200...no more!", and I know this happens quite frequently. So all I can offer is that you have to be able to trust your auctioneer, and you have to be comfortable with your bid levels. Bidding only one increment above the previous bidder is the safest way of protecting yourself, but I guarantee you will lose lots this way, as you will be outbid by one bid by someone who waited until 5 minutes closer to closing time! In my view, if you feel good about the auctioneer, then leave a bid a couple jumps up, if that's within your comfort level for payment. 

 [*]Another problem that doesn't affect buyers but affects sellers, is the auctioneer taking the sales money and using it for personal purposes. So long as you are constantly having auctions, and you can keep your consignors at bay, you can easily remove thousands of consignor dollars from the business and use it for business investments or personal purposes. Here's how you do it: George consigns 20,000 worth of bottles for auction 10, in January. You sell them, get the money in February, and use the 20K to buy stock for your store. George wants his money, but you put him off, telling him you are waiting for payment by buyers (or whatever). Fred consigns $20000 worth of bottles for the April auction. You sell them, get the money in May, and pay George. Now you go thru the same process with Fred, putting him off til the next auction. The cash flow crunch comes at some point, and everyone gets hurt. Jim Hagenbuch at Glass Works in Pennsylvania suggests a trust account, such that the auctioneer cannot take anything out until the consignor receives their percentage. Good idea, but such an animal as a trust account like this does not exist in Canada. [/ul][/ol]
 Buyer beware, I guess. Ask around. I have bought and sold at many of the known glasshouses. There are some I will never deal with again, some I would happily leave a very high advance with (and no, given my position in the marketplace, I won't name names). But many many collectors have bought from the likes of Pacific Glass, Glass Works, GlassCo, Hecklers and others, and will have their opinions. Ask around. And ask the auctioneer. I strongly recommend asking the auctioneer whether they own the piece you are thinking about buying. The wonderful thing about the Net is that more opportunities to buy are coming up. In Auction 7, we had what I thought was a unique book on wine glasses. When it sold, I was sad to see it go. But a search of the Web found a copy at a used book site. So if you really aren't comfortable with auctioneer X, just hold off...the piece will probably come up at another auction house, at another time. 
 All in my humble opinion. All in all, I think auction houses as a rule are excellent. I love auctions, and I love the variety that is opened up to me. Auctions can be a ton of fun when you are buying, and even when you are selling."

 Both quotes are from Glenns' newsletter #19,  dated Sep/Oct 1997.
 The advice about asking the auctioneer if the Glass House OWNS the piece you want to bid on is important. Ask and I'll tell you why.

 Bill


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

good piece there druggist, that is some reading I think everyone needs to see.  As far as indescribed and un photographed damage goes it is more then one of them.  I always thought it was funny that the big guys can say "hair line", "chip" or "flake" with out a picture, while anyone on e-bay doing the same will not sell their item!


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## bottlesam (Nov 25, 2007)

Hi Everyone,
*Blade,* what druggistnut and tigue710 both say, are VERY TRUE regarding the bottle auction sites. They could care less about you. *What they do care about is making as much money as possible, period.* They make money on both the seller and the buyer. In most cases 15% both ways. That's *30% of the selling price folks!* You bet they are going to Europe each year. Heckler nor Hagenbush *ever* show you a picture of damage,* never*. 
            Heckler doesn't even post his prices during the auctions. What does that tell you? Some auctions he doesn't even post the final prices either. I still am wondering what one of my bottle's really sold for on one of Heckler's auction's because he never posted the  final prices. Do you understand what I am saying?
           Now Hagenbush, it's always a inside joke between me and my friends that Hagenbush is having another "scratch and dent sale". To me 80 to 90% of his items are damaged in some way. Again no pictures. He tried to sell me a 1K soda that had a glued on top. His reply when confronted at the National Show was "it must have slipped by" slipped by my $%^. Theses people are professionals nothing "slips by them". He didn't even say he was sorry! I even had to pay the postage back, per Hagenbush's contract! I have never paid less than my maximum bid to Hagenbush. What does that tell you?
            Jeff Wichmann now is another story. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Jeff both as a buyer and a seller. But he sells mostly Western glass which might be a drawback. But, he is the *ONLY* bottle auction that have won a bottle on LESS than my max. bid. What does that tell you?
                                                                                        Bottlesam


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

Keep in mind we were discussing SELLING through an auction house not BUYING though one. Things like downplaying damage benefit the seller. The auction house is an agent for the seller , not the buyer. When you list your house with a realestate agent they are going to do what they can to benefit you as a seller not the buyer (there are now buyer agents of course).  That's not to say that the auction house should not still be honest with buyers. They realize if they dont also treat buyers reasonably well they wont have many customers after a while.

 A couple years back I saw a high priced med at one of those major bottle auctions that had been modified. The neck had been cut off, ground down, and fitted with a metal cap to make it appear undamaged. I contacted the auction house and sent them documentation proving the item was damaged. They did not change the listing. This certainly helped the seller but hurt the buyer (and lowered my opinion of the auctioneer's integrety).


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## baltbottles (Nov 25, 2007)

I will have to say I've bought bottles from the 4 major Bottle auctions. Hecklers, American Bottle Auction, Glassworks, and BAM. I've had both good and bad experinces with all of them. I'm not going to go into detail and slam one pirticular auction house. But my opinion is that there is much room for improvment. Honestly if I was you and i was selling this bottle. I would contact several of the top pontiled med collectors and Just ask them to make offers. And had my own auction privately. Or just put a large reserve on it and ran it on ebay to get a starting point of its value. Then sit on it for a year or so before deciding what I was going to do with it. You could also consider consigning it to one of the better and more well known bottle dealers to sell for you Such as Jeff Noordsy, or Ed Gray. These people both get good prices for quality bottles because they have built a reputation for selling quality bottles and have large lists of  contacts.

 Chris


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

Some good ideas there.


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## bottlesam (Nov 25, 2007)

guntherhess quote ([Keep in mind we were discussing SELLING through an auction house not BUYING though one.)
  Agreed, I went a tiny bit overboard on personal experiences. But they were both buying and selling experiances. This should be about selling.

guntherhess quote (just giving you a different view from a *buyer's* perspective.)
But in my opinion, (and your's too, it seems?) looking at *only* selling and not the buying as well, is like looking at only one piece of the puzzle.

guntherhess quote ( The auction house is an agent for the seller , not the buyer. When you list your house with a realestate agent they are going to do what they can to benefit you as a seller not the buyer (there are now buyer agents of course).
Let's talk *SELLING *Now I *totally disagree* with your above statement. Your logic is *totally erroneous*. A auction house works for* THEMSELVES* not the seller! That's where many people are confused. A  real estate agent makes money *only *off the *seller,* not the buyer. A bottle auction  makes  money off *both* the *SELLER* and the *BUYER*, so they represent neither (or both) depending how you look at it. They are simply, a high priced middle man, period.

 I have bought and sold bottles for 38 years and used all of these bottle auction houses.
*IN MY OPINION:*
*HECKLER'S:* Most well known, best client base, alot of high rollers. Expect to pay 15% right off the top of the final price.
*HAGENBUSH:* 12% right off the top.
*BOTTLES AND MORE:* Free to selllers!
*AMERICAN BOTTLE AUCTION:* 10% for A high dollar item.

*I agree with some of Chris' ideas*.
  I also believe that there is room for improvement in the bottle auction houses. But, I also think you need to hear some of the "slam's", (as Chris calls them). However, a slam is a derogatory statement,(which I tried not to do). I would rather call them* facts*!  I wish someone would have told some of them to me, before finding out the hard way. The best advice Chris gave you was to get in contact with as many of the high end pontil medicine collectors that you can and offer it to the highest bidder.I totally agree. You don't need a agent or middleman to sell that bottle as long as you are not in a hurry. I forgot to tell you GREAT FIND!!!
                                                                                  bottlesam


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## appliedlips (Nov 25, 2007)

First off,congratulations on a great find and good luck in whatever you do with it.

     As far as the auction houses are concerned my preference would be Glassworks.I have used several both to sell and buy and they have treated me the best.Most will negotiate on commission if you have a great item to sell,which you do.I do not think it is wise to choose based on SMALL differences in fees.Just like any service,you get what you pay for.Would you rather end up with 90% of the fair market value or 100% of half the fair market value?Sometimes if you have a good item that has sold recently you can establish a value of a similar item and price and sell it yourself.In this case where you have a very rare item I would think sending it to auction is the way to go.Everyone has good points and as long as you get it to one of the large auction houses and put in a premium catalogue sale and not a Clean up sale you will do fine.As far as Glassworks selling a bunch of damaged stuff that is absurd,they sell far more items than Hecklers over the course of the year and do sell off some lower end stuff from time to time but they also sell the best in hobby,also.Good luck in your future digs,Doug


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## earlyglass (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I guess I will add my two cents, especially since I was the high bidder when the auction was pulled from Ebay. I liked the piece, but to be honest, I thought it was reasonably priced in the hundreds, not thousands. I could be mistaken, but the bottle had characteristics that are much more consistent to English bottles, so I had some difficulties believing it was prodcued by an American glasshouse. The font is very similar to many of the other English "cordial balm" bottles... but that observation is not what is in question here. With a lack of provenance and historical data, it is difficult to make an accurate assumption, and define a value. 

 I have bought and sold through all of the auction houses listed above, and trade regularly on Ebay, and sell through my site (which I won't plug!). There is really no ryme or reason as to what works best because the tides are always changing. I have purchased bottles from Hecklers, and sold them for a profit on Ebay, and vise versa. I will say that most of the collectors of colored pontilled medicine bottles are on Ebay. A GW Stone for $17,000, a Howards for $11,000, just a few weeks ago there was a Smiths for $3900 and a Covert's for $4000. So the big stuff is selling there. You could put these with Norm Heckler, and they may bring more or they may bring less. However, if you sell at auction, you will have to pay a consignor fee (10-15%) and there are no reserves, and you won't get paid for atleast 3 months from when you deliver the piece. I am not bashing the auction houses, I am just stating the obvious facts. 

 Sell wherever you feel comfortable. Limit your exposure to fees, and make sure you use a reserve. In my opinion, it is always best to sell privately or direct through a seller/buyer interaction. 

 Good luck with your bottle. Please keep us informed as you obtain information.

 Earlyglass


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## appliedlips (Nov 25, 2007)

Mike,

      I thought people were going high on putting a value on it also.I was guessing $1000-$2000 but not more.It is a great bottle but you are right about it looking like other English cordials but if it where English that could even boost value depending on the rarity.You do have a point about advoiding auction when possible,I try to sell and buy privately when I can fairly price an item.Doug


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

when guntherhess told him to reject an offer for a couple thousand, i was confused. i agree that the bottle should gain english intrest and american if its english made, but it doesnt jump the value that much. id hold onto it. then sell it in 10-15 years. 

 everything was said about auctions that needed to be said. all thats left is educated speculation. my educated speculation predicts that the bottle will bring 2500-3200 right now.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

and doug...way to go on your 666th post.


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## druggistnut (Nov 25, 2007)

> Sell wherever you feel comfortable. Limit your exposure to fees, and make sure you use a reserve. In my opinion, it is always best to sell privately or direct through a seller/buyer interaction.


 
 I agree, Mike. 
 One big thing we all forgot about (or didn't post) was tax.  If you sell through an auction house and they send you a check, you get to pay Uncle Sam his BIG percentage, if it is a high end piece. Then, since Uncle Sam got his, you have to pay your state sales tax, too.  With a private sale (or eBay, as of right now), it's the "what goes on in Vegas" rule.
 Bill


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

You guys know it is American maker, and yellow olive right?  Similiar types have reached 8,000.00.  Top dollar of course.  Id go with Philla's estimate...


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

I guess people dont read earlier posts in the thread?  I think we already established it is American and from Uniontown PA. It's unlisted, as early as the 1830s, and a rare color. If those features dont bring a lot more than a couple hundred I guess I am in the wrong hobby and should be collecting PEZ dispensors[][][] 
 These threads seem to degrade to chaos after more than one page[]


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

tigue, we suggested an english glass house.

 gunther, maybe you should read previous posts. we suggested an english glass house. and i didnt say it was worth hundreds. i gave my price, and im sure collectors would agree.

 also, This one went to chaos in your own head because you think you can value bottles based upon ebay listings.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

im sorry matt. there is no need for you to reply, but this pisses me off because he had the right idea with the reserve. you could have just told him to up the reserve.


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

thats why I said American maker...  although the embossing looks similar to a few American made bottles also, it was common to send orders over seas at the time....


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

ok tigue, sometimes its hard to understand what people are typing.

 do you have any pictures of bottles that have this shape that can be attributed to an american glass house?


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

We will have to disagree until it is sold then if I am wrong I will say so.


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

what came to mind was a strange bottle, the balm of silliness, and also the teal pint size udolpho wolfe's...

 In retrospect American maker is not very clear...!


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

oh matty, i know you were trying to be a good guy, but if your unsure about something...dont assume a value. [] You did know its a harder one to get, but that doesnt mean its worth a mint. the highest it would go is the $4700 range, but thats pushin it.

 i too would say i was wrong if by some slim chance i am. [] i would however like to see pictures of your PEZ collection when all is said and done.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

> he had the right idea with the reserve. you could have just told him to up the reserve.


 
 I recommended he not sell it on ebay because high end bottles on ebay have been realizing much lower final values than those at the glass auction companies. His listing did not do justist to the item he was selling as I have stated. Its just my opinion nothing more , nothing less. 

 I also thought it was English as soon as I saw it and the London directories were one of the first places I searched. It has definate English features. But it is apparently an American product.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

read above your last post....

 a high reserve of oh say 2 grand if met would be a very good price for the bottle. if it didnt meet the reserve, he could let the collectors touch and feel it at a bottle show (like the one you go to) and tell them the reserve. then he would get the 2 grand. play it smart pez man, you like puttin prices on bottles...you should know this.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

> I also thought it was English as soon as I saw it and the London directories were one of the first places I searched. It has definate English features.


 
 i bet you did.


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

You girl scouts still fighting over who can sell more cookies?


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

> collectors touch and feel it at a bottle show


 
 I think I already stated that as an option


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

right, and i didnt disagree. you just took out PART OF WHAT I SAID.

 dude, youve got nothing.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

> You girl scouts still fighting over who can sell more cookies?


 
 No way, we are just agreeing to disagree without getting personal []

 Its a free country we are just speaking our minds.


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

[]


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

its something that two adults do when they get married little Sally. 

 oh wait, wrong forum......


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

I've put some strange stuff in the google search engine but I still havent seen that forum yet!


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

arguing with my wife is definately not as fun as arguing about bottles


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## blade (Nov 25, 2007)

This should help clear up the question as to the origin of this bottle. I got this from a book online about the history of Uniontown PA.​On​​Jacuary 26 *1832, *Dr. Braddee purchased from Judge​  Thomas Irwin the property since known as the National House,​located on the northwest corner on Fayette and Morgantown​streets, and finished the third story and erected a two-story​brick wing to the north, extending to the stage yard. To this​he moved his office and his family, and his medical practice in-​creased to the extent that the streets were thronged for squares​with the vehicles of his patrons. I t was estimated that his​practice produced him from​​*$30 *to $70 per day; and his patron-​age extended from Bedford and Somerset, and from as far as​​​North Cardim and New Orleans.​Here he compounded a line of proprietory medicines for​which he had great demands; such as​​" Elroy," " Female​Cordial,"​​" Camomile Cordial," " Rheumatic Cure," " Cancer​Salve,"​​" Cordial Balm of Health," " Tincture of Health,"​"​​Gravel Elixir," " Black Drops," etc.​Digital Scan by Fay-Wesy.com. All Rights Reserved.​


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## tigue710 (Nov 25, 2007)

blade, it was a valiant effort, but it still does not clear up where the bottle was made!

 Gunter, argue about bottles, love the wife, that is wisdom, and some good advice I think I'll remember...


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## GuntherHess (Nov 25, 2007)

Nice research job. If you can just figure out where he ordered his empties from you will have the complete picture.


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## baltbottles (Nov 25, 2007)

Ok my 3 cents. I'd say that with the proximity of Uniontown to Pittsburgh I'd say it was blown there. If not Pittsburgh then Philadelphia or Baltimore. The inwardly rolled lip is typically American. And would be highly odd for an English pontiled medicine. Also The tubular open pontil is more typically American. Most English pontiled meds have more of a sand chip or solid rod type glass pontil. Though sometimes an American looking open pontil can be found on a few examples. As for value Its a smaller sized bottle. But it is early has nice embossing and is colored. I'd personally think around $2-3000 is a fair price. Because For one its a Pa colored pontiled medicine. Pa colored pontiled meds are not as highly collected as those blown at New England, New York, or Baltimore Glass houses. Simply stated Pa has a high percentage of colored pontiled bottles and a smaller number of collectors willing to spend the money for them. This keeps their price down. Combine that with all the active digging going on in Pa towns thereâ€™s a good chance more examples will be uncovered.

 Chris


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 25, 2007)

whamo


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## deepbluedigger (Nov 26, 2007)

Not much I can add, except on the subject of it being English or not. The embossing looks very English, but it is otherwise a bottle that looks competely American made, IMO. 
 As Chris says, the inward rolled lip is very American. They do occur on English bottles, but so rarely that I've only ever seen one bottle with that type of lip, that I'm confident is English. 
 The pontil could be English or American, but the smaller size suggests American (have a look at http://www.diggersdiary.co.uk/Articles/Pontils/Pontilmarks.htm for some pointers on English pontil marks - this is a page that needs more work and will be updated in the next couple of months. Comments and ideas very welcome!).
 The colour - so long as the photos on the thread give a good representation - is almost unheard of on English made bottles.
 There was another Braddee Cordial Balm bottle on eBay about a year ago. Six sided, colourless flint glass, pontiled, but with a flared lip and solid pontil. Looked a bit later than this one, and was a bottle that could have been English made. Having said that, Dr Braddee was definitely an American medicine man, with a very interesting story.
 Jerry

 P.S. I'm ALWAYS looking for English pontiled or hinge mold meds. If I thought that one was English I'd be fighting to get to the front of the queue!!!


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## botil (Nov 26, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> A couple years back I saw a high priced med at one of those major bottle auctions that had been modified. The neck had been cut off, ground down, and fitted with a metal cap to make it appear undamaged. I contacted the auction house and sent them documentation proving the item was damaged. They did not change the listing. This certainly helped the seller but hurt the buyer (and lowered my opinion of the auctioneer's integrety).


 
 Were you referring to that?


 The bottle for sell:

*Fancy Early Two Piece Mold Flask, *Europe. 1800-1820. Oval form with vertical ribs at shoulder, a face in the sun at the center and a floral motif at the base surrounding the letters "Mottee" (in script)- reverse plain, dense amber (black), ground mouth with tin collar - pontil scar, ht. 5 7/8 inches, wdth. 3 inches; (no closure). 
 A most unusual bottle, perhaps of European origin for an alcoholic beverage. Estimate* $500-1000*





 The bottle I found:









 Helpful comments about glass auction houses' activities.
 Juan Carlos


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## GuntherHess (Nov 26, 2007)

> Ok my 3 cents. I'd say that with the proximity of Uniontown to Pittsburgh I'd say it was blown there. If not Pittsburgh then Philadelphia or Baltimore. The inwardly rolled lip is typically American. And would be highly odd for an English pontiled medicine. Also The tubular open pontil is more typically American. Most English pontiled meds have more of a sand chip or solid rod type glass pontil. Though sometimes an American looking open pontil can be found on a few examples. As for value Its a smaller sized bottle. But it is early has nice embossing and is colored. I'd personally think around $2-3000 is a fair price. Because For one its a Pa colored pontiled medicine. Pa colored pontiled meds are not as highly collected as those blown at New England, New York, or Baltimore Glass houses. Simply stated Pa has a high percentage of colored pontiled bottles and a smaller number of collectors willing to spend the money for them. This keeps their price down. Combine that with all the active digging going on in Pa towns thereâ€™s a good chance more examples will be uncovered.
> 
> Chris


 
 "It's a smaller sized bottle"  and  "It's from smalltown PA not one of the other more highly collected cities"  
 Those are two very good points and they will weigh against its rarity and color. It also appears to be dug and not attic mint which hurts it with the people who want perfection.


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## earlyglass (Nov 26, 2007)

Two more cents... I indicated that the embossing, font, and subject "cordial balm" looked English to me. Shape looks English as well. The color could be anywhere. Rolled lip does look American. Who knows for certain, so much of this is speculation. The fact that you have documentation regrding this merchant practicing in PA has alot of weight for certain. With that documentation... call it "American" until someone proves you otherwise!

 Regarding the value, I still don't put the "highest" regards on it. I don't want to do any bashing at all, but the attractions (in my opinion) for colored pontilled medicines include...

 1. Embossing which include a name (Dr. Whosit), concoction (health restorative), and location (Boston, MA) 
 2. Strong attractive color ( rich emerald green, yellow, puce, honey amber, etc)
 3. Size and shape ( large bottles in a rectangular form are most desired) The typical 9" rectangle with indented panels, and embossing on 3 or 4 sizes
 4. Naturally, rarity is key. A few known examples is often better than a unique piece. People feel more comfortable with what they know and have always desired. 
 5. Keep in mind that value is only relative to the level of "buying power" of the collectors in that market, at that time. 

 This is just my opinion and two cents. There are no real rules, attraction and desire, like everything else, has alot to do with it. Here are some great medicines in my opinion (picture). Chris, I love your Berlin bitters... and that is a bit different from the norm, but highly attractive and desired... also well-known. 

 Sorry, I am typing quick so I don't "time-out"

 Earlyglass


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## GuntherHess (Nov 26, 2007)

Very well stated. Good points on what makes the bottles desirable.

 > _I am typing quick so I don't "time-out" _
 have you tried selecting the text and using CTL-C to save it in the paste buffer before pressing the OK button? One of the forum members suggested this (sorry I forgot who) and it seems to work well when you type a long message and hope not to lose it.


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## tigue710 (Nov 26, 2007)

considering how much of a knot this bottle has gotten everyones panties into I bet it hits 4,500!


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## idigjars (Nov 26, 2007)

Beautful Earlyglass.  Just making a suggestion, if you want to type something long why not cut and paste to and from Word?  Take care and thanks for sharing that great pic and information.  Paul


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## kungfufighter (Nov 26, 2007)

I am thoroughly confused.  To those folks bashing the auction houses I would ask how they make their living.  The selling of objects is the auctioneerâ€™s livelihood and thus it stands to reason that they charge for their services.  Insurance costs, storage costs, energy costs, employee costs, catalog costs, research costs et al must all be considered when determining how to set their fees.  These men are professionals providing services as dictated by demand and they are compensated accordingly.  They are in business to make money, yes (and what businessman is not?), but in doing so they face the unenviable task of trying to keep both buyer and seller happy.  Having been privy to both the buyers and sellers perspectives I can assure everyone that that this is not an easy task.     To the gentleman who slammed an auctioneer for acting like a â€œbusinessmanâ€ when he called him at home on a Saturday morning I would ask specifically what he does for work and when I could call him at home to discuss that with him.  On one hand it seems that we want these men to be professional (in complaining about the way they list their bottles or charge for their services) but when it suits us we want them to be our chums.  Thatâ€™s ridiculous.  These folks are engaged in making a living, just like every other able bodied man and woman in this country should be doing.  And, like anyone else working to get by they DO MAKE MISTAKES.  Though they are experts, some of these auctioneers catalogue thousands of bottles each year and things do in fact â€œslip by.â€  There is no intended malice or subterfuge here but rather simple errors of omission.  Can anyone out there say that they have never made a mistake at their job?       Please understand I am not plugging the auctions â€“ in fact, as a full time dealer the auctions hurt my business.  Still, it is difficult to sit here and read these wild accusations and inappropriate assumptions without somehow responding.     As for the bottle in question we must remember that just because it is embossed with the name of an American physician it was not necessarily made here.  There are countless examples of objects (bottles and otherwise) made overseas for the American market.  This is especially true in the aftermath of the war of 1812 when inexpensive imports (commissioned or otherwise) flooded our shores.  Several good points have been made in favor of English or American manufacture and I do not have anything to add on that score other than to emphasize that the embossing itself does not give definitive evidence of origin.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

hey jeff, good points, but there are good doctors and bad doctors. there are good auction houses and bad auction houses. everyone is a critic, and everyone can have there own opinions about personal experiences. im sure you didnt like the service somewhere, but liked it another time.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

back to the bottle...i know little about molds other than Philadelphia and NJ made bottles and what Chris has told me about the Baltimore stuff. I do not assume an amber puff is Stoddard just because its amber. This bottle looks to be dip molded? maybe an early Pitts made bottle? It almost takes the shape of a snuff.


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## kungfufighter (Nov 26, 2007)

> there are good doctors and bad doctors. there are good auction houses and bad auction houses


 
 I couldn't agree more.  I simply have a difficult time with folks making unfounded assumptions and/or questioning an auctioneer's right to charge for their services or act in a businesslike manner.  Are any of the auctioneers perfect?  Of course not.  With that said, they do provide an important service to the business (yes, I said that)/hobby of collecting old bottles and I don't think that they as a group should be unfairly maligned.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

ignore the assumptions and work with the experiences. and when someone complains about the premium, think about what you would like to pay at an any auction house. I usally pay 10% for a general auction and 15% for an antique sale. That is totally ridiculous, but like you said...this is how these people make a living. If the auction house appeals to the consumer in the quality manner, they should appeal to the consumer in the financial manner. I agree that its hard work to do thousands of bottles for an auction, but theres only how many sales a year?? they have plenty of time to consign and catty the shibby. to tell you truth jeff, i really dont care. if i wanted to buy a bottle i would want to touch it, and if i wanted to sell a good one, id sell it at a show. Id rather see the collector get it and id rather get as much as its worth. I dont want to worry if the right people see it etcetc. I sell good bottles that dont fit on the shelf about twice a year...i make my money off antiques and pimping.


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## earlyglass (Nov 26, 2007)

Please, just don't mix antiques and pimping... nothing is gained from 80 year old prostitutes.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

guntherhess is my #1 customer in that category....ill say that some people have wierd fetishes


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## GuntherHess (Nov 26, 2007)

If I was looking for a woman of ill repute I certainly wouldnt come to you for that service.[]


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

well matty, it made it to page 4 before going downhill.


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## baltbottles (Nov 26, 2007)

Matt,

  The bottle obviously isn't dip molded. Its blown in a 2 piece hinge mold. If the bottle had been "dip molded" the process of expanding the gather fully in the mold to create the shape and embossing. Would have left no way to remove the bottle from the mold other then pulling it straight out. This would have distorted the embossing very badly and probably misshapen the bottle due to the bold embossing becoming stuck in the mold. In dip molding the mold only creates the basic shape of the bottle below the shoulder. the shoulder and neck are all free blown. This process was generally used to create unembossed utility forms. Such as Snuff and liquor bottles. The only embossed Dip molded bottles I can think of is the BGW (Baltimore Glass Works) Squat Cylinder circa 1800 ish. The embossing on these is so week it could easily go unnoticed if you didn't know to look for it. And another slightly taller cylinder of about the same age with a small W embossed on the side. Again the embossing is very week and distorted. As for amber utilities I'm sure most east coast glass houses made utility forms in colors other then aqua. 

  Chris


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## kungfufighter (Nov 26, 2007)

Kudos Chris, as usual, you make a very clear explanation of the bottle making process.


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## Digger George (Nov 26, 2007)

*What A Find!*

I agree with chris

did you paint your fingernails?

i like turtles

ebay 12,000 buy it now, do it.

good luck with whatever you do.


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## baltbottles (Nov 26, 2007)

Thanks Jeff


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: Digger George
> 
> *What A Find!*
> 
> ...


 
 thats why i always call george first to dig.


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## appliedlips (Nov 26, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> 
> arguing with my wife is definately not as fun as arguing about bottles


 

 Great quote!Too many get bent out of shape when you challenge stuff you hear.Arguing about something you are passionate about is fun.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

i was saying hes a funny guy.

 and if you want to take sides, dont let your blood-pressure get too high, 

 but then again if you got out and dug more youd be in tip top shape.

 [][][][]


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## appliedlips (Nov 26, 2007)

What Balm of Silliness bottle are you referring to?The only one I have seen was blown in photoshop on a Privydigger named John's website.



> ORIGINAL: tigue710
> 
> what came to mind was a strange bottle, the balm of silliness, and also the teal pint size udolpho wolfe's...
> 
> In retrospect American maker is not very clear...!


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## appliedlips (Nov 26, 2007)

You are wrong Philly boy.That is all there is to it.Please admit it,now!
 What is it with guys named Matt around here?




> ORIGINAL: PhilaBottles
> 
> oh matty, i know you were trying to be a good guy, but if your unsure about something...dont assume a value. [] You did know its a harder one to get, but that doesnt mean its worth a mint. the highest it would go is the $4700 range, but thats pushin it.
> 
> i too would say i was wrong if by some slim chance i am. [] i would however like to see pictures of your PEZ collection when all is said and done.


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

your a funny guy dougie. funny guy.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 26, 2007)

> guys named Matt around here?


 
 I can't help it, I was born with the name, some type of Biblical error I fear.


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## tigue710 (Nov 26, 2007)

you got that huh? lol....  peterpans bottle....

 I also enjoy turtles, but not hang turtles....

 I started a thread on Matt's if you want to take it over there by the way...


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## PhilaBottles (Nov 26, 2007)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y


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## Bottleman (Nov 26, 2007)

> http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y


 
 ...so random but so funny...LOL!


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## tigue710 (Nov 26, 2007)

> ORIGINAL:  PhilaBottles
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y


 
 now that is good, how in the h-e- double L did you find that?!


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## phil44 (Nov 30, 2007)

Frustrated by the general publics preference to buy English over American. It is very logical that American Proprietors would package thier items in English looking packages.

 Hi everyone new member here, thought I'd chime in on this for my first post. The only thing I havent read or perhaps missed is the molds similarity to  the common London bottles blown here and England. 

 The embargo was actually one of  the ballooning controverseys that ultimately lead up to the Civil War. People especially in the South didn't want the Feds taxing the goods they prefered.

  The bottle screamed English to me when I saw it on the Bay. I was waiting to see who bid on it to determine whether it was american or not. Besides being a good place to sell bottles Ebay is good for learning about the bottles listed there, just like this site is. Thanks everyone for  contributing what they know about it.


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## GuntherHess (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey Phil, 
 Glad to see you made it on the forum.


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## earlyglass (Nov 30, 2007)

Phillip, I agree with your observations. Ebay is a fine place to buy and sell, and it seems that Ebay is also the best forum for determining if a bottle is American or English. Since Ebay has international reach, it will access the foriegn buyers as well as the American buyers. For one, prospective buyers have an opportunity to email the seller with any information regarding the piece. Second, as you mentioned, you can see who is bidding, which will often help you base your decision. 

 Many people do not care for Ebay, sometimes I don't care for the process myself, however, you have to admit that the audience reach helps level the playing field for buyers and sellers. 

 When I made my comments about the desirability of colored pontilled medicines... one of my comments were that collectors would rather buy an extremely rare medicine (one of 5-10 known examples) over a unique (only known example) medicine because of the fear of the unknown. To me, this bottle was unknown.

 ... just my opinion. Another 2 cents (I have like 6 cents in this thread)

 Mike


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## portland med. man (Nov 30, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: earlyglass
> 
> Phillip, I agree with your observations. Ebay is a fine place to buy and sell, and it seems that Ebay is also the best forum for determining if a bottle is American or English. Since Ebay has international reach, it will access the foriegn buyers as well as the American buyers. For one, prospective buyers have an opportunity to email the seller with any information regarding the piece. Second, as you mentioned, you can see who is bidding, which will often help you base your decision.
> 
> ...


 i like early glasses thinking does appear to be on the english side or an english blower in america...... it doesnt look like it was dug but thats my thoughts what else have you found with that bottle and what state did you dig it in.......... got any diggin photo`s??????????


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## blade (Nov 30, 2007)

The bottle was dug in a Lancaster County PA. privy (wood liner) along with a few other local bottles. The privy was honey dipped.


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## phil44 (Dec 2, 2007)

It is interesting the bottle was found so far east of Uniontown in Lancaster. There are quite a few western Glass Houses it could have come from. Glass House attribution would greatly increase interest in your bottle. Geographic location of UnionTown and the color of the glass are clues to go by if one would attempt to connect it to a glass house. Another helpful clue but not always totally reliable-is determining when the hole it came from was filled in- knowing the time line of all artifacts found with it- etc. Someone found advertisments there may be more. 

 I've seen English glass that color but it would be expensive to ship things west before the trains and the canal. Not impossible but un-likely to come east of the Appalachians before the 1830 time period. Western Glass House workers werent as skilled as the guys in the east which may be the reason for the extreme crudeness to your bottle . I've seen 1840ish Pittsburgh and Wheeling glass that color. Also the first successful fintglass manufactory was in Pittsburgh which would explain flint examples.  My feeling is it dates closer to 1840 than 30. Its hard to to arrive at a 100% + conclusion....The more clues you have the better the hypothesis.


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## digger don (Dec 2, 2007)

Phil44  This is the friend of blade that was with him when we found the braddee bottle . All the bottles and the shards in the hole were pontiled I believe this was a very early hole that even had broken black glass bottles in it. The braddee bottle was found against the back wall .It could have even been thrown in when the hole was first dug with the back fill behind the wood wall. Hope this helps


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 3, 2007)

Guys I collect English pontiled meds, live in the UK, buy a lot of US-found English bottles via eBay and directly from friends in the US, and there's just _no way_ that's an English bottle.


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## GuntherHess (Dec 3, 2007)

> Guys I collect English pontiled meds, live in the UK, buy a lot of US-found English bottles via eBay and directly from friends in the US, and there's just no way that's an English bottle.


 
 Deepblue, I would like to hear your reasoning on that. Do you agree with the same arguments Chris made against it being English or are there other reasons? I dont believe it is English either but the shape and embossing might lead people to think that.


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## PhilaBottles (Dec 3, 2007)

everyone shush, give me the bottle, and we can powerwash each other.


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## phil44 (Dec 3, 2007)

What's so funny? There are a number of obscure glassworks in the Uniontown area. I think it's interesting to est. a time line.


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 3, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hi Gunther,
 This is an ongoing story, the whole 'British or American' thing. There are huge numbers of US bottles here in the UK that are sold and re-sold as being English. Turlingtons, Dalby's and Essence of Peppermint are the 'worst', but also Hastings Naphtha Syrup, Buchans Hungarian Balsam and many others. All of those except the Hastings also exist in genuine English versions, which just adds to the confusion. I will be adding a 'British or American' page to the diggersdiary website in the next month or two, which hopefuly will be useful.
 For this Braddee bottle there are four things that, together, mean (to me) it is 100% American made.
 1. There is really solid documentary evidence that Bradee was a US proprietor selling home-grown US medicines. A really interesting guy, who died in prison in 1846 - he was sentenced in 1840 or '41 for robbing the US mail (see http://elements.fay-west.com/pdf/haddens/ch27.pdf), so it's a bottle with really great provenance. If I was a US pontil med collector I would be finghting to get this bottle. But I'm not a US collector. Although it is a great bottle and if money was no object ...... !
 2. The inward rolled lip. Chris and I agree 100% on this. British bottles with inward rolled lips are rare as hens teeth. To the point that they almost don't exist.
 3. The open pontil mark is quite small, and would be very unusual if it was an English example.
 4. The colour is very, very, rare on early English bottles. Green yes, olive yes, but this green-with-lots-of-yellow (or yellow with a hint of green, perhaps)? Almost never.
 The body shape _is _very similar to many English Cordial Balm bottles (Dr Solomons, for example), and the embossing is also English in style, but that is not enough to overturn the four points above.
 Of course, there's always the chance that I'm wrong. But I doubt it on this one.


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 3, 2007)

... at the risk of being boring, and having just had another look at the photos on the first page of this thread, I do have to say that that is one phenomenal bottle. I SO WISH it was English!


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## GuntherHess (Dec 3, 2007)

Deepblue, Thanks for posting your opinions on it. A great benefit of this forum is to be able to get input from English (and other nationalities) collectors who we would never meet otherwise.


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## GuntherHess (Dec 3, 2007)

> Sorry Phil that was not directed at you. Twas another Phila all together.
> 
> Lobey.


 
 You're lucky your name's not Matt, there are about a dozen of them on the forum[] Quite confusing sometimes.


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## PhilaBottles (Dec 3, 2007)

makes me wanna go rob some stagecoaches.


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## phil44 (Dec 3, 2007)

In my experience: alot of embossed stuff with it would indicate a newer bottle. If it were the only embossed thing in the hole older.  

 The link attached by the Deepbluedigger provides alot of insight. Lots of hypothesizing material to hypothesize there.[]

 Don't remember exactly, he was married during the 1820s shortly after his arrival to Uniontown I wouldn't expect it to be before then.


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## GuntherHess (Dec 3, 2007)

It was apparently being distributed in a bottle in 1834. Whether it was the same style bottle (or even an embossed bottle) is hard to say. It was a bottle with a paper wrapper which was the common practice back then. It's pretty amazing when you find any documentation on some of these early medicines. I have a whole list I havent found much of anything on.


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## Road Dog (Dec 3, 2007)

Got a list Matt?


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## GuntherHess (Dec 3, 2007)

Not a list per se but ones within the group of medicines I have been trying to research.  I will probably post on my website. I am working on a new medicines section that tries to provide historic info on medicines I find interesting. Mostly post-Civil War at this point so may not be of great interest to the early glass collectors.


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## Road Dog (Dec 3, 2007)

I have alot old bottle info and could do some lookin for ya. The Pre-1860 stuff that is. I 'll keep a watch out for the list.


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 4, 2007)

Here is a pic from the flint glass example on eBay a year or two ago. Apologies (and thanks) to the oringial photographer if they're on here: I sometimes keep pics of interesting stuff from eBay just for my own reference, but this thread seems like one that would find these pics useful. I don't remember how much this bottle sold for, but it wasn't a huge amount. It's embossed on the other side 'Cordial Balm', and has a solid pontil. It's a flattened six sided shape in cross-section.


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## phil44 (Dec 5, 2007)

Wow Deepblue you seem to a tapped the forever running well of information!!! 

 I have to get my American Glass Book out to accurately supply you this bit.

 General James O'hara one of the original proprietors involved in starting the Pitts. Pa. Glass Works from 1797 to 1819 was known to seek and aggressively lure experienced glass workers from other places to work for him in Pittsburgh. Around 1800 they brought in William Price from Stourbridge England as a superintendant expressly to supervise construction of a Flint Glass Furnace. The attempt wasn't fully successful, may have produced a few bottles. William Price is the depicted  on a Wheeling Va.  Flask. McKearins American Glass book  lists more than a few Glassworks that were close enough to Uniontown to supply Flint bottles to Bradee before 1830.   

 Phil44


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## Lordbud (Dec 6, 2007)

Ebay update the current bid is:  $261.76 -- three different bidders so far -- 5 total bid amounts -- 15 hours, 25 minutes left.


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## Road Dog (Dec 7, 2007)

What happened?


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## GuntherHess (Dec 7, 2007)

See the Dr Wood's thread, that's actually the bottle currently at auction not the Braddee. 

https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-134908/mpage-3/key-/tm.htm#135843


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## midway49 (Dec 7, 2007)

deepbluedigger,
   I was the photographer/owner/ digger of the Braddee on ebay last year.  I'm glad you had the pic as I was in the process of getting one posted and adding my thoughts.  
   Three of us dug it in northern Kentucky. It was in thin, black muck, pontil layer right on bottom of hole.  I never considered it to be an English bottle after I did my internet research on the Dr.  But I am not a glass expert, so it could be.  But my opinion is:  Given Dr Braddee's character, I doubt he would have payed extra to have bottles imported.


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 7, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: midway49
> 
> deepbluedigger,
> I was the photographer/owner/ digger of the Braddee on ebay last year.  I'm glad you had the pic as I was in the process of getting one posted and adding my thoughts.
> Three of us dug it in northern Kentucky. It was in thin, black muck, pontil layer right on bottom of hole.  I never considered it to be an English bottle after I did my internet research on the Dr.  But I am not a glass expert, so it could be.  But my opinion is:  Given Dr Braddee's character, I doubt he would have payed extra to have bottles imported.


 
 Thanks for being cool about me posting your Braddee bottle photo here! I reckon you're probably right about Braddee's character and paying for imported bottles. 

 I've got a great little pontiled opodeldoc bottle in my collection that looks 100% English in it's manufacture, but is likely 100% American: _E. Byam's / Liquid / Opodeldoc_. Flint glass, folded flared lip, solid pontil, English style serif letters. Ezekiel Byam was another American patent medicine man of the first half of the 19th century who was a real character, but he stayed on the right side of the law. There's a lot about him on Google.


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## GuntherHess (Dec 7, 2007)

> I was the photographer/owner/ digger of the Braddee on ebay last year.


 
 If you dont mind me asking, what was the selling price of that bottle last year.
 PM me if you dont want to post it. Thanks


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## GuntherHess (Dec 7, 2007)

> Given Dr Braddee's character, I doubt he would have payed extra to have bottles imported.


 
 Interesting reasoning, I cant say its right or wrong but I wouldnt nessisary assume that imported bottles were more expensive than having them locally made.  Locally made bottles probably did have a more predictable delivery schedule.[]


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## GuntherHess (Dec 7, 2007)

> E. Byam's / Liquid / Opodeldoc. Flint glass,


 
 I've seen several of the Byam's in flint glass and one in aqua, maybe a bit later. 
 It does have an English look.


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## midway49 (Dec 7, 2007)

My Braddee bottle did not meet reserve.  Partner and I made a trade, and he now, very proudly, has it reside in his house. 
  Wanted to add, my research indicated Braddee bottles most likely late 1830's, as he was arrested about 1840 and died in prison early 1840's.


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## GuntherHess (Dec 7, 2007)

> My Braddee bottle did not meet reserve


 
 Thanks for the response. Do you happen to remember what the bid was when it ended?


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## blade (Dec 27, 2007)

Hey guys, my buddy and I decided to sell our bottle in the upcoming February auction at www.glswrk-auction.com. ( Glass Works Auction )


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## phil44 (Dec 27, 2007)

I was hoping to see it in the preview....It'll be interesting to see what it does........I'll bid atleast 2$!


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## blade (Dec 27, 2007)

It will be in the preview hopefully by the end of next week along with a pontiled Wells, Miller & Provost peppersauce bottle that was dug during the summer.


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## phil44 (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm sure he'll get it on there.


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## Bottleman (Dec 31, 2007)

Blade, I just looked at the preview from the auction site and I didnâ€™t see the bottle on there. Did I just miss it or is it not on there yet?


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## blade (Dec 31, 2007)

I was told the bottle should be on the web site by the end of the week.


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