# DATING ACL SODA BOTTLES ... (PART I)



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

NOTE :  In the event you happen to be online as I am creating this thread, please hold off posting replies until it is done. It may include as many as a dozen pages initionally, and I would like for them to follow in sequence if possible. I will indicate on the last page when I'm done. And please bare with me as the edit feature may mess me up from time to time, which I will not be able to correct without posting a separate page regarding it. The toughest part of a project like this is the editing, and promise again to do my best. When editing I only have about five minutes per page to make corrections.   

 Thank you,

 SODAPOPBOB



                                         ~ DATING ACL (Applied Color Label) SODA BOTTLES ~


 Recently I noticed a number of new members coming on board and thought some dating information may be of help to them. Whenever possible I will include an accompaning photo to better explain the oftentimes difficult text. Plus I wish to say right from the start that what follows is based on my own personal experiences as I know it, and openly admit that some of it may be subject to interpretation and debate. Thus I will try my best to keep with the basics. I sub-titled it "Part I" because I feel it will eventually be followed up with a more complete and comprehensive "Part II."     

 For starters here are a few words (see attachment below) about the hobby of collecting acls, plus a brief explaination of the ACL process itself ...

 The process of applying an adhesive paint to soda bottles was first introduced around 1934. But it did not become immediately popular until a few years later when bottlers were finally able to switch over to the necessary equipment to accomplish this new invention. Plus it took a while to gain in popularity. The Coca Cola Company did not start using it until around 1957. Which I suspect one reason was because they had so many thousands upon thousands of the embossed contour/hobble skirt bottles in the market place that it must have been quite a transition to switch over to the new process. Plus I secretly think Coca Cola was old fashioned and just held off as long as they could.  But there are many thousands of other companies that jumped on the idea right away and their amazing bottles are both collected and treasured today by collectors like myself and numerous others who also call Antique-Bottles.net "Home."  So hopefully this will do for an introduction, and please be reminded there are volumes of books and internet sites with more specific information on the subject of dating and collecting acl soda bottles.

                             I'll be back shortly with more. Thanks for stopping by for a look.

                                                                   SPB

                                           By Cecil Muncey from ACL Collecting book.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page two ...

 I failed to mention on page one there is no way I will be able to include the dating information of every bottle maker and their various dating codes, etc. That would require a lot more talent and time than I have. So with this said I will just focus on the more commonly known glass bottle makers like Owens-Illinois and a few others. Most of the Acls in my personal collection (and those of most acls) are from the more familiar glass makers anyway. So I will stick with those for the time being. (And please be reminded this is not intended to be a complete history of the bottle makers themselves, but rather with the dating of their various acl bottles).

                                              Starting with the afore mentioned ...

                                           ~ OWENS-ILLINOIS GLASS COMPANY ~

 Most Owens-Illinois bottles can be easily identified by their familiar mark that looks something like this ...  <( )>   (Which can be created on any keyboard). Of course on the bottles themselves this symbol will have various numbers connected with it. Which we will discuss in more detail shortly. The attachment below is pretty self explainatory. Please study it for a moment while I take a little break. Thanks. SPB  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page Three ...

 Before continuing I feel it appropriate to acknowledge the book where I "borrowed" some of the images above and a few others to follow. Most (if not all) of the additional photos to follow will be from bottles in my personal collection. 

 If you don't already have this book I highly recommend it. I believe a Fourth Edition is in the works, but I have no information on it's current status. I personally consider it to be the "Best of the Best" of the acl collecting books ever published!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page Four ...

Just for the record I would like to include this photo from the base of an early Owens-Illinois bottle. You likely won't find it on any acls, as it was only used from 1919 thru 1929. Remember, the acl process wasn't introduced until 1934.

                         Owens-Illinois early symbol ... An "O" in a square ... 1919-1929


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page Five ...

 From Acl book again ... Owens-Illinois bottling plant locations with corresponding dates of operation.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page Five ...

 Now this gets into the tricky part that may be subject to debate. But from everything I know about dating Owens-Illinois bottles, I personally believe the following to be true and correct. As seen in the image on Page Two ... it depends on where the numbers are located as to their meaning. 

                     For example a typical Owens-Illinois bottle will look something like this ...

                                                              21 <(I)> 52

 With the main focus of our interest being on the 52 ... which in this case means the bottle was made in 1952. Other bottles will have other dates. The 21 would be for a specific bottling plant number. 

             However, prior to the 1950s the mark would look something like this ...2 <( )> 6.

 Notice that the six has a dot next to it. I know for certain it does not mean 1956. And have every good reason to believe it represents a 1946 bottle.

 And then there is the mark that looks similar but does not have a dot. Which would be for a 1936 bottle. And looks something like this ... 7 <( )> 6

 Also note on the above symbols the absence of the 'I' in the center circle. I am not 100% sure when the 'I' was first introduce, nor if it is or is not on all of the earlier acls. This will have to remain the topic of another discussion. But I honestly believe it is not of major significance here anyway.

 Here's an example of a 6. (dot) acl bottle base ... indicating a 1946 acl. Notice the name Duraglas that (if I am using the correct term) 'merged' with Owens-Illinois around 1940. (The 6. may look like a 5. but under a magnafying glass it looks more like a 6.  ... (irrelevant either way).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 14, 2010)

Page Six ... (Done for now ... with more to follow this week).

 And here we have a ( not too clear ... but please take my word for it [] ) example of a Owens-Illinois bottle from 1935. Notice there is no dot. And I know this is a 1935 acl because it is on the base of a (slender) amber 7up bottle that was only made in the 1930s. (I believe only from 1935 to maybe 1937).

 Anyway, I am getting a little blurry eyed from all of this and will continue with it over the next few days. My next installments will focus on what I know about the Lauren Glass Works ... Glenshaw Glass Co., and possibly a few others.

    I hope all have found this to be both informative as well as "Fun" ... which is my main hope.

                                                ~ ALL COMMENTS WELCOME ~

                            This is a learning process, and I am completely open minded!

                                                         Thanks ... SPBOB

                                                        1935 7up acl (Base)


----------



## morbious_fod (Aug 15, 2010)

Nice thread you got Soda, but you need to deal with the O I of the late 1950's and forward. Some interesting variations on the date code there. The earlier "non I" symbols are most likely due to the mold, it should have the symbol with the I and instead of straight across they should be in a v shape. Great article keep it up, and move on to the Chattanoogas, I'm still waiting to learn how to interpret those from 1930 forward. I think you are on to something with this thread, keep up the good work.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

Morb ~

 Thanks for the advice. And please feel free to share with us what you currently know regarding the Chattanooga bottles. That area is more than just a little confusing to me personally.

 Also, please post a photo example of that so called "V" symbol you mentioned. And perhaps a brief explaination of what you mean by "straight across." I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about something like this ...   <(V)> ...   or this ...  < I />  ...  or something else entirely?   

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

OWENS-ILLINOIS SUMMARIZATION  ... (So Far)


 1.   Early Mark ... On embossed / Non Acls ...  A capital "O" in a box  =  1919 thru 1929

 2.   1930s  ...  (example) ...     2 <(I)> 5   No Dot = 1935

 3.   1940s   ... (example  ...     3 <(I)> 8.  With Dot = 1948

 4.   1950s   ... (example) ...     12 <(I)> 54   Double Digit = 1954

 Note:  I have acls in my collection that "appear" not to have an "I" in the center like this ... <( )>  But based on Morb's comments this could very well be a mis-stamped mold problem.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

OWENS-ILLINOIS / DURAGLAS  (A few Examples)

 Please Note:  As stated in my introduction, my intent here is to focus on the basics. There are many aspects to all of this that will not be covered. Plus, it is meant primarily for new/novice collectors. The so called oldtimers already know all or most of this stuff. However, even some of them may find it to be useful and of interest.

 Following are a few examples of Owens-Illinois / Duraglas acls. And please be reminded that O-I and Duraglas 'merged' around 1940. So any acl with Duraglas on the base would be from 1940 or later. There may be exceptions to this rule, but none that I am aware of. And also bare in mind it is with the dates that we are concerned with here and not company history's.

 Here we have an example of a 1948 bottle. But there is something a little different about this one. Can you see the difference without my pointing it out?

 Notice this time there is no "I" in the center of the symbol. But rather there is a "dot" where the "I" normally is. I am not entirely sure when/why this dot is present, but it is clearly a 1948 bottle irregardless. If someone wishes to comment on the "center dot," please feel free to do so.

 The other numbers, such as the G 94, are of no particular interest here and likely are mold numbers of some kind.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

Next we have this example of a 1957 bottle. And for those of you with a sharp eye you will immediately notice something different about this one too.

   This time the little  <  >  symbol is gone and we have an 'I' in a circle instead  ... like this ...  (I)

    Again, there may be exceptions. However, I do know that the (I) was first introduced in 1954.


                                           Duraglas  7 (I) 57 = 1957


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

Lastly ... (For the time being anyway) ... We have this example of a 1964 bottle. (Please excuse the poor photo). Notice they are still using the 'I' in a circle (I) but there is no "Duraglas." Another exception? I'm not sure, other than it is clearly a 1964 bottle ... "Nehi" to be specific. Note: I have very few 1960s Acl bottles. Most of mine are 1940s and 1950s.

                                             23 (I) 64 = 1964


----------



## morbious_fod (Aug 15, 2010)

There are three variations of the owens illinois mark. The v I was referring to is the second one where the I's top lines come out looking more like a V on both ends. The last one is the I with straight lines on each end.

 http://www.fohbc.com/PDF_Files/Owens-Illinois_Lockhart.pdf

 from this article.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 15, 2010)

Morb ~

 Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. Especially the link to Bill Lockhart's article. In all the research I've done I somehow missed seeing that one. I highly recommend it to all collectors both new and veteran. Additionally, I recall now those variation marks you referred to earlier, but my brain just couldn't visualize them at the moment.

             This is just one example why I refer to you as "The Sage of Soda Bottle Lore."

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## morbious_fod (Aug 15, 2010)

Ok, ok the smoke you're blowing up my nether regions is getting in my eyes. LOL!


----------



## Calbottlegirl (Aug 16, 2010)

Very cool thread!
 One of the best books I ever checked out of the library was "Bottle makers and their marks".Going to see if I can find it again.
 Jan


----------



## bottleopop (Aug 17, 2010)

Calbottlegirl -

Here is an online bottle marks site.  Here is another one.

 While I'm at it, here's some other sites on dating soda bottles.

Here is an Owens-Illinois plant number (the number on the left) site with dates of operation.

Here is a website on the Glenshaw (G in a square) bottles dating scheme just below the lip of the bottle.

Here is another article on dating more general and older types of bottles.  In there is an interesting link to a key (like a biological identification key) to bottle dating.

Here is another general bottle dating site with photos.  There is a section to click on for "Dating Soda Bottles".

Here is another bottle dating site dedicated to pre-crown soda and beer bottles.  Click on the Shapes, Bases, Lips, etc. to see the various dating schemes for these bottles.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 17, 2010)

bottleopop ~

 Thanks for taking an interest in this thread and for posting the various links. All of which are very helpful, especially for beginning collectors who this thread is primarily concerned with. In a way it's kind of funny because at the conclusion of this thread I intended to post all or most of the same exact links. But now, thanks to your much appreciated contribution, you saved me the time and need to do so.

 Additionally, I would like to emphasize this thread is a full participation project and all members are welcome to contribute anything they feel will assist others in a easy and comprehensive method regarding the dating of ACL soda bottles. I mention this again because the scope of such a project can be more than one individual such as myself can possibly accomplish alone.

 My next phase of this, and pretty much what I had in mind all along, is to show actual examples of the various bottles being discussed. 

               On the next page I will post a couple of photos of Glenshaw Glass acl bottles.

                               Thanks again to all, and bottleopop in particular.

                                                             SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 17, 2010)

~ THE GLENSHAW GLASS CO. ~

                         Typically recgonized by a base mark that has a capital 'G' in a box. 

 Glenshaw acl bottles can be a little difficult to date. Especially if you don't have a good eye or a good magnifying glass handy. On most Glenshaw bottles a very, very small letter is embossed beneath the upper lip and on the more rounded part on the top of the bottle. 

 For starters here is a photo of the base showing what what one of their maker's marks looks like.

 Please note that the 1937 is not the date as to when this particular bottle was made, but rather is a mold number or some other coded number. The 8 has no particular interest here either.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 17, 2010)

And here we have a photo of the lip with the letter  'R'  ...  I apologize for the poor photo, and you will have to look real close to make out the 'R' ... but I promise you it's there, and once you see it you will know what I mean. The little white line in the dead center is the very top of the 'R' ... The 'R' itself is more in the 'shadows.'  

 The 'R' in this case indicates the bottle was made in 1946. And here's one of the links bottleopop shared showing the various other dates and their corresponding letters.

                  Link :   http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/collectorscorner/glenshaw.html

 By the way, if someone can provide a better, clearer image of one of these letters it would be appreciated.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

I was messing around with my photo cropping stuff and came up with this boxed-in closeup of the 'R'  Those extremely small letters can be a real challenge to photograph. This is the best of about fifteen attempts. I realize this may not be necessary, but the other photo was bugging me. Eventually I may have to get a better camera for this closeup stuff.

 SPBOB


----------



## fanboy (Aug 18, 2010)

Not sure if this will help you or not, but to take these type of photos I would suggest:
 1. Use a tripod
 2. Use your camera's Macro setting
 3. Use a remote trigger/cable trigger
 4. Turn off Image stabilization if using a tripod.
 5. Move the main light around to find what best highlights the embossing

 hopefully you will find that the pictures might be clearer...

 Chris


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

Chris ~

 Thanks. I'll try that. And welcome to the forum.

 I'm not exactly a photo whiz. But I was glancing through my camera manual last night and saw  references to some of the tips you mentioned. A lot of it is still a little Greek to me, but I will experiment and see what I come up with. 

 Those Glenshaw letters are so dang small (slighty smaller than the F5 type letters on a keyboard) you  can barely even see them with a magnafying glass.

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

hey sodapopbob thanks for all the useful info... alot of my questions were solved!


 Wanted: Franklin, Fulton, Huntingdon, and Bedford County Bottles (located in pennsylvania)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Chris ~
> 
> ...


 
 Oops ... I'm not sure how this got duplicated. I must have hit the quote option instead of edit. I guess I'm not a whiz with computers either. The lightning speed edit and no delete don't help much either.  SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

CDV ~

 You're Welcome.

 How'z about shooting us a photo of a bottle you recently ID'd/Dated, and tell us how this thread helped with it. I'm sure everyone would enjoy seeing and hearing what you have to say. And if you or anyone else has any helpful info regarding Chattanooga bottles, please share that with us also. I'm having a bit of a problem with those boogers!  <  (I wasn't sure how to spell booger, and was surprised to discover it was actually in my dictionary).   Lol  []

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

LAURENS GLASS WORKS  /  L G W

 L G W acls are fairly easy to identify and date. But instead of the bottle marks being on the underside/base they are typically found on the "heel" of the bottle. The heel is on the very bottom / "outer" edge of the bottle.

           Here's a little info regarding Laurens Glass Works ... (With a photo to follow).


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

ha sure thing, ill got take pictures!!!!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

And a little more ...

 L G W..................Laurens Glass Works, Laurens, SC (1910-1996). Plants also operated in Henderson, NC (opened 1957) and Ruston, LA. The Henderson and Ruston plants are now part of Saint-Gobain Containers. NOTE: In some instances certain older (pre-1900) bottles or flasks with the marking "L & W" (indicating Lorenz and Wightman) are misunderstood to read "L. G. W.", and because of an entry in Toulouse's _Bottle Makers and their Marks_, this mark is believed to stand for Louisville Glass Works. I do not believe Louisville Glass Works ever marked ANY items with the initials "L G W".


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

I still haven't mastered my photo techniques, but here's a (sort of okay) photo of ...

                      The "heel" from a Lockhart, Texas bottle.   3 L G W 9  ... for 1939


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

And just for the heck of it here is a photo of the "Lockhart" bottle itself. (After all, this is a "bottle" site ... right?)  
 Lol [] ... And please notice the cool acl label which has a heart - padlock - and image of Texas all rolled into one.


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

Due to the recent posts by SodaPopBob, i have learned how to date my ACLs and the ones to come in the future... this one is from 1936... it does not have a dot so you can indicate that its a 1936.... so thanks alot for all your help.... and also the soda bottles that have a G in a suqare on the bottle can be dated by the top shown in the next picture... the letter x indicates that is from 1952... if you look under a few posts by SodaPopBob you can learn how to date them by understanding what the other letters means!  


 Wanted: Franklin, Fulton, Huntingdon, and Bedford County Bottles (located in pennsylvania)


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

this one is a bottle that has a G in a square on the bottom of it, so to date it look at the top of the bottle


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

also does anyone know what an R in a Triangle means???? Like on the bottom of this soda bottle???




 Wanted: Franklin, Fulton, Huntingdon, and Bedford County Bottles (located in pennsylvania)


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 18, 2010)

also does anyone know what an R in a Triangle means???? Like on the bottom of this soda bottle


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

CDV ~

 Fantastic! You did great! Thank you.

 And as your reward here is a link to a website where you will find your 'R' in a Triangle Mark. But rather than me telling you what it is, go to the site and familiarize yourself with it. And then please come back and tell us what you find.

 Link :  http://myinsulators.com/glass-factories/bottlemarks.html

 Also ... How'z about a full image photo of your 1936 ACL. It sounds like a real early one. Remember, the ACL process wasn't introduced until around 1934. Could be something real special.

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 18, 2010)

~ Chattanooga Glass Co. ~

 This is especially for Morbious_Fod ... (who I know has seen this) ... but is also intended to get the ball rolling on yet 'another' glass maker's mark and how to date them. But I'm really going to need some help with this one folks. So I invite anyone familiar with these bottles to jump on the wagon and please help us out.

         I'll be back later with more  ... but I have to unharness, wipe down, grain, and corral the horses first.

                                                       SODA "TEAMSTER" BOB

                                                                      []
 [*]C.B.G.CO................Possibly Chattanooga Bottle [&] Glass Company, Chattanooga, Tennessee. Also _might_ be the mark of the Charles Boldt Glass Company, Cincinnati, OH & Huntington, WV (1900-1919). Their Cincinnati plant closed in 1919, and the Huntington factory continued as Charles Boldt Glass Manufacturing Company from 1919 to 1929. This mark occurs on the base of various soda bottles of the early 20th century, especially from southern states such as Georgia, Tennessee and Alabama. This may point to a stronger possibility of the mark being from Chattanooga. Anyone with more info on this mark, please contact me. Please see next entry.
 [*]C.B.& G.CO..............Possibly Chattanooga Bottle & Glass Company, later Chattanooga Glass Company, Chattanooga, TN (1901-1988). Mark would presumably be from the earlier years of operation, circa 1901-1927. See "C in a circle". 

                    "Dr. Bob's Travelling Soda Bottle Show"


----------



## splante (Aug 19, 2010)

awesome infomation thank you. A old canada dry bottle i found is a lot older then i thought going by this info it shows 3<(1)>6 (no dot)
                                                       12
 so it looks like it is a 1935 bottle, thanks again


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 19, 2010)

splante ~

 Great to hear from you. I'm also looking to put together a photo archive. Especially of the super early acls like your's. If possible, a photo of both the bottle and the base would be ideal. Hopefully you can accommodate us.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 19, 2010)

splante ~

 It just dawned on me that your Canada Dry might be a paper label bottle. Which is fine. They too would have the same or similar date codes. I was just hoping to confirm this, and point it out to eliminate any confusion regarding the dating of paper label soda bottles that typically preceded the acls (painted labels). A typical painted label Canada Dry should look something like one of the bottles here.

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## Bottle Junkie 56 (Aug 19, 2010)

R in a triangle: Reed Glass Co. Rochester, NY.   Also, on Laurens bottles from 1960's 70's, 80's from Ruston & Henderson are marked "L" with 1 dot AND "L" with 2 dots to distinguish from the Laurens, SC plant with NO dot(s). RK


----------



## splante (Aug 19, 2010)

always have trouble getting a clear picture of the base on clear bottles, also did not mean to mislead you the canada dry is not acl , no label either is has  about 10 embossed straight lines that are spaced apart and run about 3/4 of the way from the base to the shoulder. typo in above post 3<(1)>5 not >6.


----------



## splante (Aug 19, 2010)

and a picture of the bottle itself


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 19, 2010)

splante ~

 Thanks. I appreciate it. I have a lot to learn about Canada Dry and Photography myself.  

 Here's a link regarding Canada Dry ... plus a lot of other cool stuff.  []

 SPBOB

 Link:   http://www.digitaldeliftp.com/LookAround/advertspot_canadadry.htm


----------



## ConsDigginVids (Aug 22, 2010)

SodaPopBob here is the soda that is from 1936....

 Wanted: Franklin, Fulton, Huntingdon, and Bedford County Bottles (located in pennsylvania)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 22, 2010)

CDV ~

                                               Fantastic and Mucho Gracias' ...

 Shortly I will be adding it to my other thread "Earliest ACLs" as one of the earliest acls known and confirmed. Watch for it to pop up shortly.   

                                                                []

                                                       Congratulations!

                                                 SODA"APPRECIATIVE"BOB


----------



## splante (Aug 22, 2010)

hi sodapop bob
 thought i had this dating figured out until i found this on another web site which claims that the bottom of the bottle shown menas its a 1956 bottle, i was thinking its a 1937


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 22, 2010)

splante ~

 The dot in the center of the Owens-Illinois symbol is still a mystery to me. But the combination with "Duraglas" is definitely from 1940 onward. (The so called 'merge' was discussed earlier). I don't have everything at my immediate disposal, but will look into the (no dot) 7 / Duraglas and see what I come up with. Unless someone beats me to it first. But please don't lose faith just yet.  []

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 22, 2010)

splante ~

 For the time being I would like to refer you again to the link morbous_fod posted earlier. Hopefully after reading and/or re-reading it, it will shed more light on the inquiry you raised. The word 'complex' comes to mind, so please be prepared for some of that. I'll be back!

 Thanks,

 SPBOB

 Link :  http://www.fohbc.com/PDF_Files/Owens-Illinois_Lockhart.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 23, 2010)

splante ~

 If you've had the time and opportunity to re-read the so called Dating Game link, then perhaps you may know what I mean by it being a little complex. If you are not familar with Bill Lockhart, he is considered by many to be a pretty good authority on this subject, and possibly the best. He has spent years doing research and is often quoted in collector books and elsewhere. And yet, he openly admids there is still research to be done in certain areas.

 So with all of the above said, back to your question as to why a Owens-Illinois / Duraglas soda bottle would have a single digit (no dot) 7 to the right of the symbol?  Answer: I am not entirely sure myself. Except I do know that any bottle with Duraglas on it would definitely be after 1940. But I see your point in that the 7 in this case 'could' possibly indicate either a year of production for 1947 or 1957. So which one is it?  

 Another area that confuses me a little on some of this dating stuff is what is often referred to as "Transition Periods." Which means that so called gray area between discontinuing one mark and introducing a new one. Bill Lockhart speaks of this as well.

 I'm not sure there is a clear answer regarding the last bottle you posted. Other than there may be a clue of some kind involving the other numbers and letters. And, of course, all of this is based on my own experiences and research, and possible something that someone else has a more definitive answer to. 

 It's funny in a way, because I've had several bottles in the past with similar marks like yours, but for some unexplainable reason never thought of them as being other than 1950s bottles. I also believe they are the exception to the rule, and that the majority of 1950s bottles will have the double-digit code like this ...      23 <(I)> 57

 I hope this helps. And if you or anyone else has something more specific to add, please do so. I too am learning a lot about this myself, and am wide open to learn more and more.

 (And now I have to break the bad news to Morb that I struck out on the Chattanooga stuff too. In fact, I think I just informed him. Sorry Morb ... it turns out that Chattanooga stuff is beyond me, with very little to be found regarding specifics. But I think you already knew that). 

 Thanks to all. This ain't a "stick a fork in it" done thread yet. (I hope). 

 SPBOB  []


----------



## splante (Aug 24, 2010)

hey I would never lose faith...your infomation is great..and you handle the curve balls very well..thanks for all your help and info....
 .finding quite a few bottles from the 30"s and fortys (like I said before from the flood uprooting them and bringing them downstream.).
 I finally think I found the source along the river bank while I was in the canoe two weeks ago..had no digging material with me,and found  out later I cant reach the area on foot.
 I will have to canoe to it again..but you can see where the flood caused a mini mudslide along the banks and glass, and shards are sticking out of the bank every where along it. Cant wait to start probing and digging that area(some of the shards seem to be pre 20"s) will keep you informed and will have more dating questions for you
 thanks again


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 24, 2010)

splante ~

 I'm not kidding when I say this, but a "Hunting Bottles By Canoe" is the perfect title for a two-hour program on The History Channel. Seriously ... That would be one interesting adventure and something I personally would love to participate in. Can you imagine a river bank loaded with old soda bottles and the like? And not just that, but a river bank accessible only by water. It don't get any better or more exciting than that!

 Please take a ton of photos (and possibly some on-location notes) and share them with the rest of us when you get back. Providing you get back? ... Don't they have gators, snakes, lions, tigers and bears in that neck of the woods?  Lol  []

 Be careful - Have fun - and "Keep'em All!" 

 SPBOB


----------



## splante (Aug 25, 2010)

yes will keep you updated, and will bring camera on the next trip..coming up soon. No lions tigers or bears..just  have to look over my shoulder so other canoist  dont see whats going on LOL, 
 like I said I havent dug yet.
  everything I have found leading up to THE source were just laying around down stream including the two browine club bottles from the mid 30's


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 29, 2010)

The Coca Cola bottle (shown at very botom of this page) is one I found yesterday along the shoulder of an old country road. I thought it would make an interesting case study involving the dating of early ACLs.

 For starters is this copy/pasted text (and possible photo / which may or may not transfer) indicating that Coca Cola's first acl was introduced in 1957. And which is the date I have a always accociated with. 







Evolution Bottle #11 - Years: 1957 - 1959 
 Important Words On Bottle: "Coca-Cola" script logo 
 Description: Hobbleskirt, 6 1/2 oz. painted label, half raised letter, crown sealed, returnable 
 Historical Notes: Officially called "Applied Colored Labeling" or A.C. L. This was the first use of ACL on Coke bottles. Coca-Cola script appears on both sides.

 And here is the bottle I found yesterday ... (More to follow on next page).[/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 29, 2010)

The reason I showed the bottle from the side is to point out that it has the Coca Cola script on both sides which indicates one of the earlier acls. Later in the 1960s one side of the bottle would say "COKE" in block print.

 But notice on the photo of the base that it clearly indicates my bottle was made in 1956. Which is one year earlier than I had previously thought they came out. So now I'm wondering ... hmmm ... what's going on here with the conflicting dates?

 And then after re-researching my query I find this ...  Copy/pasted

 {The first Coca Cola ACL bottle, which was called the transition bottle, was used from 1955 to â€™61. Next was the 1961 ACL bottle, which was used until â€™63. The â€™63 ACL was used until 1965, the â€™65 ACL until 1968, and the â€™68 ACL was used into the â€™90s. There was also a 1972 ACL bottle, with a red and white label, that was also used up to the 1990s}.

 So now I know there were some so called "transition" bottles starting in 1955. Which, apparently, is what my bottle is. (I hope you're following this - it's not complicated but easy for me to mess up if I don't explain it properly). I'm still researching the plant location for 8B ... but it appears to be a transfer code designation from Glassboro, NJ to a plant in New Orleans, LA. sometime in the late 1950s or early 60s. The 23 is a mold number of some kind.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 29, 2010)

So the conclusion I have arrived at is that 1955-1957 were transition dates, and that the full production/distribution date(s) for the first Coca Cola acls wasn't until around 1957.

 Lastly is this copy/pasted info regarding the Owens-Illinois mark like the one on my bottle, which is an "I" inside of an "O", and looks something like this ... (I) 

 I hope you have found all of this to be helpful, I know I did!  Lol  []

 Thanks,

 SPBOB

 You will notice that even this information is a wee-bit confusing. So I guess I'm not alone in that respect.

 {"I" within an "O"... Owens-Illinois Glass Company, Toledo, OH [head office], 22 glass factory locations in the US and Canada. (1929-to date), mark used c. 1954 to the present. The diamond was removed from the "old" mark (diamond superimposed over an "I" and an "O" or oval) beginning around 1954, although some bottle molds apparently didn't have the diamond eliminated (I.e., the mold re-engraved) until as late as 1958. (However, I have a soda bottle in my collection with the "old" mark, dated 1959!) After 1958 the great majority of O-I bottles carried the "new" simplified mark of just an I inside an O. On recent bottles, this mark may be small, faintly embossed and not always easily visible, and usually is embossed on the heel of the container. Owens-Illinois, Inc. is presently (2005) the official corporation name (used since 1965).}


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 3, 2010)

I realize the following Owens-Illinois information is a bit much, but as this is an ongoing project I decided to go ahead and post it anyway. Just think of it as an "advanced" version of something previously discussed. Plus, I honestly expect it to be of help in the future. This is the most detailed info I am aware of regarding the dating of Owens-Illionois soda bottles. I especially like the part where it addresses the "I" as sometimes being invisible, or possibly appearing as a "tiny dot."  

                                                                  ~ * ~

 Diamond superimposed over an oval [letter O] and an I ... Owens-Illinois Glass Company, Toledo, OH (head office) and other plant locations (1929-to date). Two examples of the mark are shown here. This mark was used from 1929 (possibly not actually engraved on molds until early 1930) up to c.1957. As there was a gradual changeover to the 'new' trademark (with the diamond removed) which occurred over a period of four or five years (beginning in 1954), some bottle molds already in use were not re-engraved until as late as 1957 or 1958. (I have a soda bottle dated 1959 with this "old" mark!). However, after 1958 the great majority of O-I bottles carried the "new" trademark, which was simply an I inside an oval. (See "I inside an O" mark). On very small bottles, the mark may be indistinct and the "I" may be invisible, or just a tiny dot. On the typical bottle, there is usually a number to the left of, to the right of, and below, the trademark. (_Note_: This arrangement is the most commonly seen, but some bottles, such as liquor flasks, are marked in other ways and so are found with a different code configuration.) The number on the LEFT of the diamond logo is the plant code number, the number on the RIGHT is a date code, and the number below the logo indicates the mold cavity or serial number. Examples: plant code #2 stood for the Huntington, WV plant; "3" was the Fairmont, WV plant; "7" indicated Alton, IL; "9", the Streator, IL factory; "12" was Gas City, IN; "14" was the Bridgeton, NJ plant, etc. Some of the numbers have been re-used for other plants opened in later years, however. For a page with more plant code numbers, courtesy of Dick Cole (fruitjar.org), click here . Known as Owens-Illinois, Inc. since 1965, (and officially known as just "O-I" since 2005), this corporation is currently (2010) the largest manufacturer of glass containers in the western hemisphere, with plants located worldwide. Owens-Illinois has continued to diversify in recent years into other types of industries, including plastic and metal packaging. Click here for one of many pages from O-I's offical website. This one has a brief overview of glass container manufacturing. 

                                                                  ~ * ~

 Example One Photo ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 3, 2010)

Example Two Photo ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 3, 2010)

Example Three Image ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 3, 2010)

Final note:  Please be sure to watch the glass making video that can be found by clicking on the last one of the two blue links that say "Here." I think you will find it both modern and facinating.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## Oklabottles (Sep 4, 2010)

I have a few questions, I have a 1966 O-So beverage with the old mark, and what about anchor hocking, heres a dodger acl bottle produced by anchor hocking, also I have a acl pepsi and its mark is like this 9 <(I)> 12 i no its not 1912 so why a 12, I didnt relize how many different glass companys made the bottles I have, out of the bottles I could find makers marks on I found 32 different manufactures marks on bottles from squat blob tops from the 1870's to acls from the 70's the manufactures are as follows (C) chattanooga glass Co. chattanooga, Tenn. 1927-present, L-G,LG,L.G. liberty glass company Supulpa, Okla. 1924-54, McC William McCully Pittsburg 1841-1909, IGCO illinois Glass Co. Alton illinois 1873-1929, KGB CO Kearns Gorsuch bottle Co. Zanesville Ohio 1886-1937, A Agnew and Co. Pitburg, PA. 1854-1894, A.B.CO American bottle co. chicago illinois 1905-1929, J in keystone Knox glass bottle co. jackson, ms  1932-53, W.T. CO Whitall Tatum Co. millville NJ 1901-38, C & CO cunningham Pittsburg, PA. 1879-1907, NBBG CO northern baltimore bottle glass co. north baltimore, OH 1888-1895, DOC Dominick Cunningham Pittsburg, PA 1882-1931, OD Old dominion Glass Co. Alexandria VA. 1901-1925, OB CO Ohio Bottle Co. Newark, Ohio 1904-1905, O-N Obear-Nester Glass Co east st. louis, IL 1894-1980, R.G. CO Root Glass co. Terre Haute, IN 1901-1909 & ROOT 1909-1932, S.B. & G CO. Streater Glass Co. Streater IL 1881-1905, SG scrantont glass scranton, PA. 1881-1895, three rivers 3 rivers glass company texas 1922-1937, SIGW- southern illinois glass works loogootee, IN 1904-1912, and W.F.&S.-mil william franzen and sons milwaukee, WI 1900-1929 thats alot of different companys it looks like a bunch of them eventually became part of the Owens illinios company.


----------



## splante (Sep 28, 2010)

hey havent forgot to keep you updated, have not been able to get out for over a month and i am itching to get in the canoe and hit that spot, hopefully this coming weekend,will  get out hunting and digging and will take lots of pictures. Between work and a DIF, I have had no time . 
 another area I came across is also along a river there are some houses set up about 50 yards from the river. The cool thing is that there is a enbankment from the back property line to the river. Looks like they may have just thrown the trash down the embankment years ago found some shards after just a few minutes of light digging.
  THE HOUSES ARE FROM THE 1760"s cant wait to explore this area.


----------



## druggistnut (Nov 17, 2012)

Hey Bob,
 Just went through your "dating ACL sodas," again. I enjoyed it both times and had something I wanted to yak with you about- Duraglas.
 Did I ever contact you on here about O-I and Duraglas?
 Bill


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 18, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  druggistnut
> 
> Hey Bob,
> Just went through your "dating ACL sodas," again. I enjoyed it both times and had something I wanted to yak with you about- Duraglas.
> ...


 
 DN ~

 If you did contact me or post a reply on this thread, I don't recall it.  As for inquiry, Duraglas was first used by Owens-Illinois around 1940.

 Bob

 Here's an example of a double-digit 48 for 1948


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 18, 2012)

DN ~

 As a side note involving Duraglas, scroll to the category "Stippling or Knurling" on the following website ...

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/bases.htm#Machine-made

 ... where you will find 

 It is not precisely certain when this feature first originated although it likely first appeared in 1940 on bottles produced by the Owens-Illinois Glass Company when they began using their proprietary "Duraglas" bottle making process (Toulouse 1971). Both of the pictured bottle bases note such with the script Duraglas on the base. This likely terminus post quem is supported by date codes noted by the author and others on bottles made by that company (Lockhart 2004d; empirical observations). So if one has a machine-made bottle with a stippled base one can be quite certain that it dates from 1940 or later. 

 (As a side note, the Duraglas in script like in the images dates the bottle from between 1940 and 1963. Duraglas in block letters dates after 1963 to some point that the company dispensed with it altogether - probably in the 1970s (Toulouse 1971; empirical observations). This inscription is only seen on Owens-Illinois Glass Co. Products.)


----------



## druggistnut (Nov 18, 2012)

Bob,
 What I wanted to tell you- There was no merger between O-I and Duraglas.  Duraglas was not a company. It was a patented coating that O-I sprayed on their bottles, to make the surface more durable and to help sustain less damage in the plant, etc...
 Any bottle that has the Duraglas moniker on it had that coating.
 Look it up under patents.
 Bill


----------

