# Help to ID a Kentucky Bourbon Bottle with a partial label.



## RLM Stamps (Jan 15, 2020)

This Kentucky Bourbon bottle has been in my family for many years. I am hoping to find out the brand and age.


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## CanadianBottles (Jan 15, 2020)

Wow, that's a really unusual bottle to be used for bourbon!  I don't think I've ever seen any sort of American whiskey with a handle before.  Unfortunately without any trace of a name on the label an ID will be pretty difficult, but hopefully someone on here has seen a bottle like that before.  I honestly don't even have a good idea of age on this one, apart from probably dating to the latter half of the 19th century.


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## sandchip (Jan 16, 2020)

CanadianBottles said:


> ...I don't think I've ever seen any sort of American whiskey with a handle before...



For real?  As knowledgeable as you are on bottles, that's shocking.  There are several.  R.B. Cutter, Bininger's Knickerbocker and Day Dream, Griffith & Hyatt, Chestnut Grove, Vidvard & Sheehan, W.B. Crowell Star, and the list goes on and on.


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## saratogadriver (Jan 16, 2020)

Loooks like the last 4 letters of the name that are still on the existing label might be ser's.


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## CanadianBottles (Jan 16, 2020)

sandchip said:


> For real?  As knowledgeable as you are on bottles, that's shocking.  There are several.  R.B. Cutter, Bininger's Knickerbocker and Day Dream, Griffith & Hyatt, Chestnut Grove, Vidvard & Sheehan, W.B. Crowell Star, E&B Bevan IXL, and the list goes on and on.



Huh, somehow I must have missed them.  American liquor bottles definitely aren't my specialty, but I'd thought I'd seen a pretty good sampling of them on here over the years.


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## SMJB (Jan 16, 2020)

saratogadriver said:


> Loooks like the last 4 letters of the name that are still on the existing label might be ser's.


Or, ...."ger"s".......Maybe "Roger's?


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 17, 2020)

Thank you for all of the replies. So no one so far recognizes the maker. After reading a few threads on this site, 
I saw that there are several books by Michael Polak. I called my library to check availability and they are bringing one in for me next week. 

Would anyone be able to give a range of value on this bottle?


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## sandchip (Jan 17, 2020)

Is your bottle pontiled?


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 17, 2020)

Since I had no idea what a pontil mark was,  I looked it up on Wikipedia and now understand your question. 
I do not feel any mark but do see a bubble inside.  I read these pontil marks can be obliviated.   I do see a line up the side that looks like a possible seam. I took a few more pictures that may help





.


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## Old Wiltshire (Jan 17, 2020)

-
HI, Your bottle is one of the many types used by A.M Bininger of New York.
An example with a complete label is shown below.

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Jim Bender, the FOHBC historian, published what is probably the current definitive catalogue of Bininger bottles in 2017.
At that time he listed your particular bottle as BPK-53 and described it as followa:

_This is the only known bottle with this_
_Old Kentucky Bourbon label. It is also the 
only known bottle of this shape with a handle_
_related to A.M. Bininger & Co._

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-

I would recommend visiting Ferdinand Meyer's Peachridge Glass site which is
linked below to see some of the variety of bottles used by Biningers.



			Bininger Gallery | Peachridge Glass
		


-

​


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 17, 2020)

_This is the only known bottle with this
Old Kentucky Bourbon label. It is also the 
 only known bottle of this shape with a handle
related to A.M. Bininger & Co._

Wow. I think that my jaw is still on the floor! I have worked with rare stamps for some years. Usually when the number of a particular stamp is low the price goes up. I guess it is just simple economics "supply and demand". The link that you shared stated that that bottle was found at the 2017 New England Antique Bottle show and is not for sale. What do you think that means for me.  If I was to consider selling it, what would you estimate it's value to be?


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## Old Wiltshire (Jan 17, 2020)

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With regards to seeking an opinion as to its value I would suggest it would  probably
be best to contact a reputable specialist auction house to seek their views.
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The following are two that I have personally bought from and would recommend.

http://www.glswrk-auction.com/index.html?section=contact&r=0.36274325081224656





__





						Consign
					





					americanglassgallery.com
				




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My own view is that if it were not for the label the flask would be of minimal value,
with the partial label possibly of more academic interest than great monetary value.

​


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## sandchip (Jan 17, 2020)

Just being totally realistic here, but I'd would estimate the value between $100.00 and $200.00.  Thanks to Old Wilt, we now know it is a Bininger product, which is the only real thing that's going for it among whiskey collectors.  The downside is that so much of the label is missing, including most of the name.  That coupled with it being unembossed and smooth-based are going to tend to depress the value from escalating too far.  Most serious Bininger collectors aren't going to go very high on it when they know there is one out there with a full label.  Believe me, because I've waited up to 25 years for THE example of a bottle while passing on opportunities of less desireable examples of the same bottle.  Many factors other than rarity factor into what people are willing to pay when it comes to antique bottles.  Best of luck if you decide to part with it.


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 17, 2020)

Thank you all for the information you have shared. I will look further into this with specialist and update this thread
when I have some news. I do have some other old flasks and old bottles. When I come across them I will most likely
ask for your help again.


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## sandchip (Jan 17, 2020)

RLM Stamps said:


> ... I do have some other old flasks and old bottles ...



Whether or not you need help with anything, we love just looking at bottles, so post away anytime.


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## hemihampton (Jan 17, 2020)

Unfortunately the very poor label condition will drastically reduce price & desirability. LEON.


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## CanadianBottles (Jan 17, 2020)

Wow, that's fantastic work on the identification!  I never expected it to get ID'd with so much of the label missing.


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## Patagoniandigger (Jan 18, 2020)

RLM Stamps said:


> Thank you all for the information you have shared. I will look further into this with specialist and update this thread
> when I have some news. I do have some other old flasks and old bottles. When I come across them I will most likely
> ask for your help again.


Please share with us any other bottles you have. It's a pleasure to know them


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## saratogadriver (Jan 21, 2020)

AWESOME ID!








Old Wiltshire said:


> -
> HI, Your bottle is one of the many types used by A.M Bininger of New York.
> An example with a complete label is shown below.
> 
> ...


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## Dansalata (Jan 22, 2020)

great info


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## sunrunner (Jan 24, 2020)

Macy Jenkins was  also a whisky put in a similar bottle . 1870s /80s.


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 30, 2020)

Thank you all for the information and replies.  I plan to list this bottle on eBay starting it later tonight.  Is it OK to post a link to the listing on this forum once it is live?


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## RLM Stamps (Jan 31, 2020)

The bottle sold on eBay today "Buy it Now" for $1140.00.
Thanks to all, and special thanks to Old Wiltshire for his help in identifying it.


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## sandchip (Jan 31, 2020)

That's fantastic.  Good for you!


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## jarhead67 (Feb 7, 2020)

Wow. Makes you wonder. Nice bottle, great sale.


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## RLM Stamps (May 25, 2020)

So I thought that i should have responded with more information regarding why i put that beautiful bottle up for sale on eBay.  I did contact one of the recommended specialists.  This was my story.

"I have a Kentucky Bourbon bottle with partial label that has been in my family for many years. Wanting to find out more information about this bottle I registered for Antique-Bottles.net forum and brought my bottle to their attention. After a number of folks were unable to ID it, finally someone did. The same person highly recommended that I contact a specialist to give me more information and a possible range for its value. They gave me two contacts and after reading about your history and seeing that you are also on the east coast I decided to contact you. Photos of my bottle attached.
This is the information that has been given to me:
Jim Bender, the FOHBC historian, published what is probably the current definitive catalogue of Bininger bottles in 2017.  At that time he listed your particular bottle as BPK-53 and described it as follows:

_This is the only known bottle with this
Old Kentucky Bourbon label. It is also the 
only known bottle of this shape with a handle
related to A.M. Bininger & Co._

*This was also written by Jim Bender on the Bininger Gallery site regarding this bottle.

Bininger’s Old Kentucky Bourbon:* Spotted at the 2017 New England Antique Bottle Show. Jim Bender: Here’s a new one for the Bininger guys. I took some nice photos of this bottle for my upcoming book on Bininger Bottles. A rare find for sure. Also not for sale.

I would like to know your opinion on a range of its value".

To be continued!!!


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## RLM Stamps (May 25, 2020)

*Hello, I am familier with the bottle as I have a copy of Jim Bender’s book on Bininger bottles. The bottle without label would only fetch $75 or so at auction. Whatever value it has is in the label, unfortunately the important part of the label that has most of the printing is missing. 

It’s difficult to put a value on it because of the condition of the label, but I’d say somewhere in the $375 t0 475 range*


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## RLM Stamps (May 25, 2020)

*Thank you for showing it to me.

*Hi Bob, The antique bottle category that your bottle fits into is the whisky category. This category has a number of collectors, but not near as many as one of the major collected categories in antique bottles like say, bitters, historical flasks or early pre Civil War medicines bottles.

A sub-category of whisky's collectors are those that collect only Biningers. This group is very small, probably less than 10 serious collectors. The problem with the bottle obviously is the label. Of those who collect whiskeys in general only these few Bininger collectors would be the only ones to show any interest. I understand the supply and demand theory, but in the bottle world desirability dominates over everything else. There are hand blown antique medicine bottle from around 1900 to 1910 that are a 'one of a kind', but almost no one cares because they are late production and are usually only in either in aqua, amber or clear glass. so the lack eye appeal and desirability. Their are hundreds of bottles like this that fit into this category. Often times at a show somewhere will show me one of these bottles asking if ‘I have ever seen one’? My response is usually, ‘no I haven’t seen it, it’s a rare bottle, but no one really cares’?

I have some working knowledge of stamps, enough to no that the market, like many other types of antiques and collectable has dropped. Great rarities usually do hold value, but condition is all important, (remember the desirability factor),so who much would the value of a very rare stamp be is 40% of it was missing? If the label on this bottle was perfect, I could probably get several thousand dollars.


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## RLM Stamps (May 26, 2020)

Thank you for getting back to me. Due to what Jim Bender stated in his book, I was hoping to hear a higher value. I have been working with old classic US stamps for quite a while and usually the fewer of a particular stamp the higher the value. Simple economics, supply and demand. I do understand that it is hard to figure what could happen at auction. Could you please answer a couple of questions for me.

What is your commission rate? Are their any other associated charges?   What does it take to have a minimum bid or reserve? That is established by us When is your next auction that this item would work well in, giving you enough time to hopefully talk it up?  Being the only known bottle, even without any label other than the one mentioned in the book; "which is not for sale", I can not imagine it not doing well.


He answered back 20%,  No other associated charges,   Our Spring May Auction.


Hi Jim,

Thank you for elaborating on the market and situation with this bottle.
When you said "That is established by us." to my question, "What does it take to have a minimum bid or reserve?" Who is us? Is it you and your staff or you and I?
What would you feel comfortable as a minimum bid on this bottle?


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## RLM Stamps (May 26, 2020)

Hi Bob, The cataloging is usually done by me, sometimes Jesse.

I’ve given a good bit of thought regarding its salability. I have only one buyer who would almost certainly have interest, but because of the labels condition his interest would be simply as an example until he finds a better one. His name is Don Keating. Don has the most definitive collection of Bininger’s known to exist, many of which are pictured in Bender’s book on the subject.

I would place the minimum bid at $250 with a $375.00 - 475.00 estimate of value. And hope for the best.


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## RLM Stamps (May 26, 2020)

Hi Jim,

After thinking about the information you shared, I have decided to try to sell this bottle on eBay. When you stated that Don Keating may be your only buyer with interest in this bottle it made me think. I have always heard that you need at least two buyers at an action to make a price go higher.  If it sold it for $250 and I realized $200 I would always wonder if I could have done better controlling the minimum bid and starting higher. eBay allows me this opportunity.  I have a listing scheduled to start tonight on the bottle. I may be pushing the envelope but I am starting with a minimum bid of $760.00 with a "Buy it Now" for $1140.00.  It will be a 10 day listing. If it does not sell I will be reducing the price and trying again. I will send you a link to the listing once listed.  I would never try to contact Don Keating as I have been a Rhode Island real estate broker for 42 years and do understand ethics.  If you sent him the link that would be different.  If I find out that it is my imagination that makes me think this bottle should do well, then after several attempts to sell, I will forward it to you and let the cards fall where they may.

 Very respectfully


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## RLM Stamps (May 26, 2020)

This is a link to the listing I spoke of on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/233478654159

The bottle did sell yesterday before I could send you the link. It sold in 16 hours, "Buy it Now" for $1,140.00. Thank you very much for communicating with me.

Best regards,


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