# Colored Pontiled Utility W/Label



## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi everyone, I was out and about today picking through some Antique Shops. I came up to a case, and noticed a darker then aqua Utility Type Bottle in the back. I thought, judging by the flared lip, and style of bottle, that should be pontiled. I asked for assistance to take a closer look, and was pleased to see it still had the first half of its label, and better yet, it was in a sweet shade of pure olive green. I looked at the base, and was surprised to see a rough pontil, nearly the size of the base itself.
   It is attic mint, and the price was a no brainer, so I picked it up for re-sale. The label is only half intact, and here is what there is remaining. Anybody know this name, or if its Auburn Maine, New York, or Texas? I will show you the bottle, and pontil first then the label. Any help would be appreciated.


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Here's the open pontil. Almost as big as the base huh? I expected a tubular Pontil


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Here's what remains of the label.


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Another next to an aqua Cologne


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

one more.


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## CazDigger (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi Mark, the bottle looks to be 1830s and has the color of Mt Vernon glass therefore it is probably Auburn NY. I searched and found some ads from 1833-47 for a Richard Steel Druggist in Auburn NY. I would be willing to bet that he is your man.`I am VERY interested in this bottle, PM me please!
 Mark


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Hi Mark,  thanks for the info. I bet your right. All the peices of the puzzle seem to fit. I agree, it does look to be very early. Here's a shot of the lip, and a different angle on the pontil.
   I was going to list it on Ebay, but if you are interested, feal free to email me an offer. This isnt really my area of expertise, therefore I'm not sure what I am looking for out of it. I was going to list it with no reserve, and let the bidders have some fun. But if the offer was right, I might be willing to sell it outright. Thanks for doing some research. I bet your right.
            here's a close up of the lip.


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

here's another angle of the pontil.


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## photolitherland (Feb 5, 2011)

What an incredible bottle, never seen one quite like it but then again, Ive only been at this for a couple years.


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## sandchip (Feb 5, 2011)

What an awesome bottle _and_ label, even if only half.  There's also an  Auburn in Alabama, but I think ol' Caz probably got it right.


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## cyberdigger (Feb 5, 2011)

Nice work, Mark!


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## botlenut (Feb 5, 2011)

Thanks for the nice comments, I was pretty pleased with my eye to spot it buried in the back of the case. I have a few of these shops I hit every time I am near by, and have a few minutes. Some of them never seem to have anyhing fresh, others get new stuff often. (Usually not Colored Pontiled Utilitys though) This Shop is a couple blocks from the National Bottle Museum in Ballston Spa New York.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 5, 2011)

Nice bottle,very crude, Richard Steel was a druggist who arrived in Auburn in  1817.Beginning between 1817 and 1827 he began his druggist business.I would say 1820 to 1835 as for the manufacture of the bottle.As Mark stated the color and the style of the bottle makes Mt Vernon a likely place of manufacture.If you are selling the bottle Mark would be an excellant choice as he is passionate about the Mt Vernon glass.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 6, 2011)

Awesome bottle, (and homework!) guys....I agree that if you guys can come to a deal, that I can't think of anyone more fitting than Mark to have it!....Great old bottle.


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## tigue710 (Feb 6, 2011)

Sweet vial... I've dug a few like it broken in 1820-40 dumps... The pontil is a solid iron bar type that was used in England at the time, making it most likely English in origin.


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 6, 2011)

Tigue has a point. Colour and pontil do look English, and that bottle wouldn't be questioned as English if it turned up on this side of the Atlantic. But I don't know the first thing about Mt Vernon glass : maybe a lot of it looks English?


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## CazDigger (Feb 6, 2011)

I have seen base shards with that same pontil from Mt Vernon. The same technique was used here for very early bottles that was used in England prior to 1840s. Tigue, maybe some of  the vials you are finding actually are American. Many of the early medicines found here that many assume are English are actually copycats of popular English products (Turlington's etc.) that were made at most early American glass houses. The color of this vial is almost an exact match for the standard glass batch used at My Vernon. I think that it was found in NY state and has an Auburn label also helps identify it as Mt Vernon about 50 miles from the Glassworks. Several well known Auburn NY meds were also made at Mt Vernon (Fosgates Anodyne Cordial, I Coverts Balm of Life, etc) so their salesmen actively marketed there. When attributing unembossed bottles though it is almost impossible to say for sure, but only probable.


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## beendiggin (Feb 6, 2011)

Excellent find.  way to keep your eyes open!


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## botlenut (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts on this bottle everyone, I have to agree with Caz, in that everything fits, from the time frame this nearby Glassworks was blowing bottles with this interesting Pontil scar in this same color It would seam this Druggist would purchase his wares locally instead of from England.


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## earlyglass (Feb 6, 2011)

I would agree with Caz. So many of these utilitarian type bottles were made for decades at both American and English glass factories. You will drive yourself nuts trying to determine where these type of bottles were made, and there any MANY other bottles as well that you will leave you wondering. The fact that there was a merchant from Auburn NY that matches the label is significant for a piece like this. Chances are highly likely of local production, so Mount Vernon, Peterboro or Cleveland would first come to mind, however, the glass color is a close match to many Mt. Vernon pieces I have seen. 

 Mike


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 7, 2011)

This thread is going in an interesting direction.

 I've got a couple of small, early, embossed flint glass pontils that I'm 90% sure are American made even though they look English (a  Turlingtons and a Rowlands) and a couple that I'm 99.9% sure are American (including a Byam's Opodeldoc).

 For a couple of years I've been trying to track down excavation reports of any pre-1840 US glasshouses that might back that up but without success so far. I'm in the very early stages of research for a book on UK pontils. It would be good to make some progress on this US vs British question for pre-1840 stuff as it's a recurring problem. Any help that anyone here can give would be appreciated (and properly acknowledged).

 Jerry


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## tigue710 (Feb 7, 2011)

From what I can find no American glass houses used this type of pontil, all bottles of the period that are for sure amerian have a tubular pontil.  Early publications from the time period are loaded with advertisements for imported vials from England, and there is documentation of American glass houses in heavy competion with British glass importers.  The style of the vial is wrong for American bottles of the period, although it's possible American glass houses were making vials in this style prior to 1820, the pontil being the exception...


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## CazDigger (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi Matt, I have to disagree with you on the pontil issue. I have personally studied many, many shards dug at the Mt Vernon Glassworks site from early digs there and have seen several bases with that type of pontil. The vast majority had tubular pontils, but small vials, tiny free blown aqua inks and flint glass meds that used that type. Bixby Bill posted a while ago an HH Reynolds Batavia (NY) flint glass bottle that was made there (confirmed by shards) with that same type of pontil. I am sure that since many glassbowers traveled from Europe (England and Germany esp.) they didn't leave their preferred techniques in the old country. I agree they are not common, but I think that has as much to do with the early vintage of that style (probably pre-1830) and the scarcity of whole bottles surviving from that early time.


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## tigue710 (Feb 7, 2011)

That's interesting, I'd have to see the shards... I did mean to say There are also sand chip pontils that are early american, but ive never seen that type here.  I've dug and owned quite a few English bottles with that very exact type of pontil, and have dug shards of those vials in that color through out new england, far from new York and in areas that would have had no
 Trade with mt Vernon.  I'm still high skeptical in knowing that  thousands upon thousands of the exact type vials, with the English color, lip, pontil and shape were imported here at the time.


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## CazDigger (Feb 7, 2011)

Here is a tiny indelible ink found locally in Central NY with a solid rod pontil. 













 Also a shard dug at Mt Vernon from an unidentified flint glass med with 
 ....RS
 .....L     embossed on the side. I have seen other shards with solid pontils that I don't have in my possession.












 Also listed on ebay is this early prob. philly med that looks Engish but is probably not.....BYAMS


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## CazDigger (Feb 7, 2011)

Matt, I don't doubt that many, most?? of the early bottles of that type could be English in origin. All I'm saying is that they were made here too. You are assuming that the vials you dug were English, but you cannot tell for sure, esp. based only on color, form or pontil. Just like as Mike (EarlyGlass) said, many times the color, shapes and lip finishes at Vernon are nearly identical to NH and Conn. glasshouses. I would love to know if anyone else has seen this type of pontil from Keene, Pitkin or New Jersey glassworks site???


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Give me a few minutes and Ill show you some Stiegel products very similar to ones just posted.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Okay here are two very small glass items found on West Stiegel street in Manheim during the 1980 Street renovation project.Being that the two glass items were found within 100 feet of the original factory and are quite deformed in finish it is logical to assume they were factory rejects and were destined for the cullet heap.The color on these matches known Stiegel glass products. Caz your bottle and this one are close cousins in every aspect.The pontils on each item match closely to the ones being posted here.The two items are pictured here first with two Turlington bottles for a size comparison.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

The pontils on each item up close.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Another size comparison.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

The tiny utility or medicine bottle up close.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Last one.


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## earlyglass (Feb 7, 2011)

You will see many similarities between the glasshouses across the East coast of the United States as early as the colonial era. The similarities are especially obvious between New England, NY and NJ. 

 Here is a slide from one of my recent presentations. This is some Temple NH (New England Glass Works) glass shards, and pieces that match the shards. There was also similar glass produced at Germantown. 

 Mike


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Man ,you have one of those little utilitys also Mike,thats three different areas with them.They are American German influenced no doubt.Nice picture and display.I wish I could have seen your expo live.


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## earlyglass (Feb 7, 2011)

Many common forms of utilitarian bottles had to have been produced at most glasshouses. Although the styles of the vial bottles vary over the years... the basic form has probably been produced since the birth of glassmaking! 

 Even about an hour ago, I picked up an odd little one... not sure what to make of it, but cheap!

 http://cgi.ebay.com/320654095153


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 7, 2011)

Nice pick up Mike.


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## tigue710 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hmmm interesting stuff... Im still gonna say English on the vial... And after looking at bills Reynolds bottle I have to point out that the Style of lettering looks English there, along with the bottle.... I'm interested in how it was confirmed to have been made there.  I have seen quite a few earlyeds that were blown here and in England and the difference is quite obvious when compared, but only because the English ones look like bottles your now saying came from mt Vernon.  Now I have to wonder why they were blowing glass in styles used in England 30 years after they supposedly brought the styles from there?  None of new England glass houses used those technics with the exception of some of the very early glass houses.  Just making an argument here cause I'm not very convinced, but I do stand corrected!

 Talking about early glass how that little green quilted "ink" that glassworks just sold?  I wanted that bad, and think it was of American origin, not English.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 8, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> The tiny utility or medicine bottle up close.


 


 Thanks for the interesting info everyone...Steve,...love these two.

  (oops, meant to quote the pic with this little bottle, and his sidekick...)


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 8, 2011)

Have to remember that it doesn't automatically follow that a piece of glass found at a glasshouse site was made there. A worker may have taken along his bottle of cough drops, bought from his local patent medicine warehouse, because he wasn't feeling too great. Or have taken along a bottle of beer for his lunch break. Or someone passing by after a night on the town may have chucked their last empty over the fence into the yard. And the office will have had ink bottles made and filled elsewhere. Etc, etc, etc.

 Association does indicate a possibility, but IMO nothing more. To be 100% sure it's necessary to have comparisons (ideally chemical analysis) comparing glass in bottles / sherds with frit and other glass remains directly associated with pots, furnaces, etc.


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## CazDigger (Feb 8, 2011)

You are definitely right on that one Deep Blue. One shard at a glasshouse site means nothing. For example,  I have seen a pressed glass cup plate shard dug there with a pinwheel pattern that just doesn't look like the same glass. They did make pressed glass salts, but I'm not yet convinced on the cup plate.I have seen various non glass household "trash" (ceramics, clay pipes etc) from glasshouse sites so that would indicate items typically used and discarded there and  not just production items. The workers didn't just use glass from their employer for everything, they could buy bottles "imported" to the area at the drugstore. As far as the Reynolds Batavia shard, he was in business locally at the same time frame (1820s-30s)as Mt Vernon 1810-1844 and finding a shard on the site in a color (flint) produced there and I would say pretty much nails it even with a single shard but there is always a (slight) chance it was made somewhere else.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

But if quite a bit of this type of glass found in large amounts on virtually every property within 200 feet in each direction of the site of the 1768 to 1773 glass works it would stand to reason that the shards most definitly and quite possibly these two bottles had a better then, then a better then not chance of coming from this site.Sure Stiegel must have paid money for any glass as cullet and probably ground up quite a bit of English made glass which has now been Americanized by the remelting. One could call them mutt bottles as they were sired by two parents who really came from two different places. 

 Manheim, Temple,were both small villages but  Stiegel was producing enormous amounts of glass during the (Townshend Duty Acts).You remember the result of these acts right Jerry.It pissed off quite a bit of the populace and home brewing was now the game. Stiegels building of a large 90 ft tall domed glass works were not some visionary thought that popped into his head one evening they were the direct result of the hated Townshend acts.Businessmen in all parts of the country were spurred on to produce home made products to keep the money here in the colonies. 

 Robert Hewes in Temple was no different. In 1780, Robert Hewes, was the owner of a slaughterhouse and tannery in Boston., He like others in the colonies saw a great opportunity to sell glass items as they were limited in importation now.He built his New England Glassworks on Kidder Mountain near Temple. As glass was difficult to acquire in the wake of the American Revolution, Hewes saw seized the opportunity and produced quite a bit of glass in just two short years.In a nut shell the Townshend acts were the engine that drove our now great country into being. 

 For those not familiar the Townshend acts summarized. 

  The British chancellor succeeded in getting Parliament to enact new duties, clearly external in nature, on paint, paper, glass, lead and tea imported into the colonies. Other than tea, the specified items were not produced in any quantity in the colonies at that time, but the capability to manufacture them in America was apparent. Of special note in this legislation was the clear statement that the intent was to raise revenue for the payment of the salaries of royal officials in the colonies, thus bypassing a role traditionally played by the assemblies.  

 Association does indicate a possibility, but IMO nothing more. To be 100% sure it's necessary to have comparisons (ideally chemical analysis) comparing glass in bottles / sherds with frit and other glass remains directly associated with pots, furnaces, etc.
 [/quote]


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## appliedlips (Feb 8, 2011)

I have dug and sold two American embossed bottles that had solid rod pontils. One was embossed RICE HENSHAW'S LIQUID OPODELDOC. It was a flint glass cylinder from Boston ca. 1820. The other was a small  2 1/2" square bottle (trying to remember proprietors name) LIFE ELIXER, that I was able to attribute to an 1828 adv. to Zanesville, Ohio. I have also dug several and will try to dig them out, light green puffs and two small inks similar to those pictured in aqua with similar pontils. They were dug in the glass making district of Zanesville and have no reason to think they were made elsewhere. I think the size of the object as a lot to do with it of small,early American tableware has similar pontils.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

Here are some shards found in Manheim at Stiegels second works the American Flint Glass factory.The larger green aqua seperate shard along with the dark green piece not glued to the card board backers were found in a garden 4 houses up on Charlotte street.one


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

More shard pictures.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

More of the same.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

One of my prized pieces from the Witmer family from Manheim.Their relative Sebastian Witmer was one of Stiegels highest paid and loyal workers.
 The flask is a flattened chestnut dead on for the colors of shards found and as you can see a pocket bottle which Stiegel advertised that he had hogs heads amounts ready to be shipped to anywhere in the colonies.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 8, 2011)

The flask next to the largest shard.


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## tigue710 (Feb 8, 2011)

Nice stuff there Steve, I would no doubt confir as to origin, and agree the pontil is correct for very early American glass.  I have seen American flint glass with solid pontils, but not colored utility glass from a later date as I suspect the vial in question to be.  This next picture shows a similar utility vial broken, but most likely American dating from the 1820-30 period.

 Doug, do you have a picture of the bottles your talking about?  

 <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="https://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u143/tigue710/tigue710-A/IMG_8541.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 10, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  tigue710
> I have seen American flint glass with solid pontils, but not colored utility glass from a later date as I suspect the vial in question to be.


 
 How do you identify the American made flint glass bottles, and where were they likely manufactured? 

 There are various comments in books, research papers, etc, about imports of British made flint glass to the US pre-1840, and on the other hand evidence about US glasshouses making flint bottles way back before the revolution, but I haven't found any useful information about how to identify US made flint glass bottles. I'm gradually figuring out some characters that might distinguish UK from US (like: a grey tint seems to be a character of some US flint bottles) but there are some bottles, like the Byam's Opodeldoc and Whitwell's Opodeldoc, that 100% look British made: glass, pontil, lip, embossing style. So I'd be interested to know if there's a real possibility the Byam's and others like it are US made bottles.


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## CazDigger (Feb 10, 2011)

Just from a practical standpoint, I would expect that embossed British medicine bottles were likely made there filled with medicine and shipped with the exception of copycats. The real profit was selling the medicine. I doubt many US embossed medicines were blown in England due to costs when they could be made locally and the nationalistic sentiment from US businesses at that time (early 1800s), there are many ads including those of glasshouses that emphasized supporting American businesses. Mt Vernon advertised in 1843 that they made vials and Turlingtons, Godfreys and Batemans and Liquid Opodeldoc. That may have been unembossed bottles in those distinctive shapes, but some embossed Turlingtons were definitely made in the US. As far as flint glass bottles, I know that Mt Vernon produced alot of clear flint glass (mostly tumblers and blown three mold), but including embossed medicines with solid pontils, although the bulk of meds were aqua with tubular pontils. I haven't seen shards but I know Keene made flint glass also so I would expect they made embossed bottles too. (Mike??) I live near the Mt Vernon glassworks and have studied the glass made there including some shards, but I can't speak from experience on other glassworks.


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## kungfufighter (Feb 10, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  CazDigger
> 
> I haven't seen shards but I know Keene made flint glass also so I would expect they made embossed bottles too. (


 
 They sure did...


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## earlyglass (Feb 10, 2011)

There is no doubt that there was quite a bit of flint glass made in America, from the Boston area down to Philly. I have seen collections of American flint glass medicine bottles. I just picked up a couple of pieces two weeks ago... check out this "Madam Anna Parks / New York"...

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330522126411

 There are dozens and dozens of 1840-1860 clear flint glass medicines that were produced in the US. I am sure that many earlier flint glass examples including the Turlingtons, Opodeldoc, etc were produced here as well. Many were in aqua bottle glass, however, also in clear flint. If you look at Joan Kaiser's new book, "Glass Industry In South Boston", you will see that many examples and pieces of the flint colognes and medicine bottles produced between 1820-1840 are from these South Boston flint factories. 

 Mike


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 10, 2011)

There's really solid evidence (that I can't give details of right now as I didn't discover it myself, and the person who did find it is working on writing it up for peer-reviewed publication. It would be wrong for me to steal their thunder without clearing it with them first) that at least one very high profile US bottler was ordering large numbers of embossed bottles from British glassworks as late as the 1820s. And I'm not referring to the Bermuda bottle wreck. This is contemporary documentary evidence.

 When I say high profile I mean stuff that will be pretty surprising to all or most US collectors. I'll chase the researcher about when / how it will be published.


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## earlyglass (Feb 10, 2011)

This may be true Jerry, and I look forward to hearing the information. 
 However, many American glasshouses produced flint glass. So why not flint glass bottles? If they had the means to produce it locally, why have them produced thousands of miles away? 

 Mike


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## tigue710 (Feb 10, 2011)

The biggest tell tale difference I've seen in American flint glass is the style of font used.  The English American versions of the same
 Bottle will have different font lettering, and American lips tent to be very delicate or inward rolled as opposed to the more sturdy flared lips on English bottles...


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 10, 2011)

I don't doubt for one moment that there were American glasshouses producing bottles (flint glass and other types) from a very early date.

 In fact there's evidence that even before the revolution glasshouses in what were then the North American colonies were making flint glass bottles as well as unembossed aqua glass phials. My interest is in how to distinguish which were US made and which weren't, if that's possible to do.

 As a British collector of embossed pontils there are interesting implications for my own collection. A lot of the evidence for American flint glass bottles from a very early date (pre-1800) is based on accounts of home-produced US versions of bottles for British medicines such as Turlingtons Balsam. Often blown 'illegally' to evade high pre-revolution import duties. So how do you distinguish the US made from the British made bottles that were exported to America, either full or empty (for example, there are records of British glasshouses blowing Turlington bottles for export empty to the US, to satisfy the demand for 'pirated' Turlingtons Balsam)?

 One of my favourite flint glass meds is one in my own collection that was probably blown in the US before or soon after the revolution. But what kind of hard evidence is there one way or the other to say whether this one and others were made on the east or west side of the Atlantic? 

 Opinion is fine, but doesn't carry a lot of weight without real evidence one way or the other (but opinion can be really good at raising questions to then research). The answers to questions about where bottles were made, and why, may provide fantastic insights into the history of both the bottles and the contents, as well as wider questions about colonialism, early international trade, brand development, etc, etc. For me it's got nothing to do with national sentiments.


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## CazDigger (Feb 10, 2011)

Jerry and Mike, I think (opinion) one of the reasons for importing the noted empty bottles may be that prior to 1820 American glassworks probably couldn't fill a huge order for embossed bottles. Smaller lots may have been economical for smaller US firms to produce, but if someone wanted a huge order they may have needed to order it from Britain due to local production limitations and with a huge order it could be more economical ordering overseas. As much as US firms wanted to envoke patriotic sentiment trying to get citizens to "Buy American" in the post Colonial era, it all boils down to economics (sound familiar? eg. China). The timeframe I focus on is 1810-1844 when Mt Vernon was in business, That pretty much corresponds with the rise of the earliest mass production of embossed US bottles.


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## tigue710 (Feb 10, 2011)

Glass production was one of the catalysts that spurred us into war with engand again, and prior to the revelation American glass blowers were levied a heavy terif on production and only allowed to produce Amal amounts of glass.  Window gass and bottles were actually one of englands largest imports to the states.  Remember the American colonies were set up as farming communities to serve England and industry was stifled.  England wanted the colonies to buy all their outside needs ad a means of income and control for the crown.

 As for specific tell tales for identifying glass font is a large factor... Specially different fonts were used at the time.  Otherwise most of it is speculation and experience with the glass...


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## earlyglass (Feb 10, 2011)

This is becoming a pretty interesting thread... well for us... other people may think we are crazy!

 It is my understanding that most of these embossed bottles in question actually date between 1815-1830, correct? Although I agree with you about the heavy import business into the colonies from England, I would say that import slowed dramatically after the War of 1812. Tariffs and substantial duties were placed on imported goods in 1816. Naturally, this increased production domestically. American glassblowers probably reproduced what was being used previously. We see numerous molds of the Turlingtons, Godfreys, Opodeldocs, etc, and many more "copycat" merchants pushing these wares. I believe that this was the start of the early American embossed medicine bottles. 

 But hell, I flunked out of history class...  

 Mike


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## earlyglass (Feb 10, 2011)

I should add that you are correct Matt about the font styles used on the English examples, which certainly looks much different than American fonts used. A collector can quickly understand this by looking at Jerry's wonderful collection of English medicines.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 10, 2011)

This is the most thought provoking and interesting thread I've seen on here recently....thanks for the ongoing opinions Tigue, Caz, Deep and Steve... and of course Mike too! I've been looking thru my early stuff, and other than a tiny sample domed ink dug in Buffalo NY, (that I cannot locate!)[] I don't have any solid rod pontil stuff. If I can find it I'll post it as it seriously resembles Caz and Steves tiny bottle's pontil mark... Interesting fragments and shards and opinions.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 10, 2011)

From the New England Glass company Mike,A flint cologne with good attribution.This exact bottle is in one of their catalogues from 1823.The bottle has a nice early rolled lip and it also has a solid rod pontil.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 10, 2011)

Number 2


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 10, 2011)

Number 3


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 10, 2011)

Number 4


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## cyberdigger (Feb 10, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  earlyglass
> 
> This is becoming a pretty interesting thread... well for us... other people may think we are crazy!
> Mike


 
 ...yep...[]


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## CazDigger (Feb 10, 2011)

Well, I have to admit, I now have the bottle that was the start of this thread and although I was sure it was made at Mt Vernon, now I am equally sure it isn't. The look and feel of the glass in person is not quite right. The glass is too thick and the color which looked like a dead ringer is off too, in person. So I have to concede that it probably is British. Boy it is hard to admit you are wrong when you are always right.[] I really do enjoy this discussion though!
 Steve, I have an aqua shard from Mt Vernon with the same panels as your cologne, the neck is missing , but I assume it is similar. This thread reminds me of the Dr Braddee's Cordial Balm thread from several years ago. British vs American attributes.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 10, 2011)

> Boy it is hard to admit you are wrong when you are always right.


 


 That's for sure![8|] Thanks for being big enough to admit it Mark. Agreed,...very interesting...I remember that Bradee bottle. Any one ever decide it's origins?


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## baltbottles (Feb 11, 2011)

> One of my favourite flint glass meds is one in my own collection that was probably blown in the US before or soon after the revolution. But what kind of hard evidence is there one way or the other to say whether this one and others were made on the east or west side of the Atlantic?





> ORIGINAL:  deepbluedigger
> 
> Jerry what bottle are you talking about and why do you think its an American made example rather then British?
> 
> Chris


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi Chris. 

 It's a flint Turlingtons. I always just assumed it was British until a few months ago when I met up with a Nth American archaeologist / historian who has carried out a lot of studies of glass from archaeological sites, from pre-revolution times through to mid 19th century.

 She wanted to see some items in my collection for a project she's working on. Looking at my Turlingtons group (which includes definite British and definite US examples) she picked this example out as being "probably" American because of the glass batch: it's a different type of mix, much lighter in weight than the usual lead glass of early British Turlington bottles, with a very, very light straw colour to it. The color is so pale that you have to sit the bottle next to genuinely colorless glass to be sure it's there at all. Even she admitted that everything else about the bottle looks 'British', and that she could be wrong. It was more an interesting possibility for her, than a firm conclusion.

 Personally I'm not yet convinced. But it's made me even more curious about what is and isn't really known about late 18th and early 19th century US vs UK bottles.


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 11, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  CazDigger
> 
> This thread reminds me of the Dr Braddee's Cordial Balm thread from several years ago. British vs American attributes.


 
 Those very cool Braddee bottles are a good example (the colored one is a classic bottle, IMO). I thought the flint glass was probably British made and the colored one was definitely US made. But could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time [].


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

This has been an excellent thread, the sort of thing we earlyglass people don't often see on forums, and which actually aids the understanding and identification of these items.
 I've left Jerry to take control of the thread as far as opinions from our side of the Atlantic goes. He is the acknowledged current leading collector/researcher in, and has access to and been hunting down those few scraps existing of the real GOLDDUST that exists for us earlyglass collectors which is HARD WRITTEN EVIDENCE...
 Reference to previous books on the subject as proof is very very debateable. Many early books had totally incorrect assumptions which have become "fact" but never were, and it is too easy for us, the long term collectors (including myself) to spout out what we have always believed, but when we come down to it we can't remember where we actually read/saw it, and those beliefs can be suspect. As example I have given up correcting people on ebay referring to the long cologne phials as "wine tasters"!!! due to some assumption many years ago by some antique writer, which has now been repeated and handed down as fact....
 As has already been said, it is particularly difficult for us glass people because we cannot even use fragments/evidence found on glassworks sites as anything reliable because of the cullet problem. A further problem is the variety and meaning of terminology - eg  the "flint" glass term was applied even in original records to both clear lead glass, AND simple clear glass not necessarily made with lead.
 There are just a few original letters and orders existing, which describe in enough detail some of what we are talking about (far too many are too vague for our purposes). So by far the majority of what we can say can only be conjecture....knowledgeable and possibly with great probability, but still only educated conjecture. We can be detectives and use a variety of other clues to point us in probable directions to the truth, such as human nature, location of certain natural resources and industrial facilities, numbers of immigrant glassblowers, etc etc.
 I can at least say that certainly clear glass meds (called flint glass) were made in early American houses as well as English/European. Close examination will reveal to the knowledgeable whether it is truly lead glass or not, and so far I have not personally seen any American made LEAD glass, BUT I certainly stand and await to be corrected on this. I HAVE seen solid rod pontils on undoubted American made med bottles as well as English made BUT the respective ratio in this aspect is phenomenally in the favour of usually being an English Item. I HAVE also seen undoubted English made (and found) meds with blowpipe pontils (you call improved pontils) which is otherwise usually 99% of the time an American provenance element. However, I believe that  the greatest conviction comes when you have the combination of the "right" pontil, with the "right" lip style. As has been said before, many American lips are inwardly rolled, or at least certainly not flared, but again I have seen examples of both in both countries.
 BUT where we get a combination of :
 1. right colour, clear LEAD glass (usually has a grey tint and shows in UV)
 2, solid rod pontil
 3. flared lip
 4. correct serif typeface (I wasn't going to mention this as even early American meds have serif face, only the obvious later ones have the sans serif, but it is a usefall additional factor here...)

 ...with ALL the above factors then I believe you must have an English MADE med. This can have been a med shipped across with or without med inside (comments before about this) and sometimes, and a most important definition,  a made for the American market bottle for an American trader. There are a number like this, some of  the opodeldeocs being prime examples.
 It is all very confusing, and I guess someday I will be shown a definitive lead glass, solid pontilled seriffed med with flared lip, that can be proved to have been made by one of your early glasshouses. 
 I have not talked about colours much. Not all English meds were lead glass, many of them were dark aqua and light green. BUT very, very few were that icy blue aqua colour your definitive meds seemed to adopt. I see that colour and 99% of the time even from a distance it will be Americn. Many English meds although clear were not lead, but these of course tend to be a little later as materials and methods changed.
 Fascinating stuff, and perhaps even more fascinating that there is so little hard evidence that allows us to have conversations like these!
 egc   www.earlyglass.com


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## Road Dog (Feb 11, 2011)

Great discussion guys. I have a couple I thought might be lead glass based on weight. They are twice as heavy as you would expect. Is there any way to tell for sure?


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## bostaurus (Feb 11, 2011)

> 1. right colour, clear LEAD glass (usually has a grey tint and shows in UV)
> 2, solid rod pontil
> 3. flared lip


 I always assumed this was an American made flint glass bottle but now I am not sure.  Very grey and a thick flared lip.


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## bostaurus (Feb 11, 2011)

Solid rod pontil..   I bought it at a show and it was dug from a privy here in the States.  What do you think...English or American?


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## blade (Feb 11, 2011)

Prepared by/Dr. Braddee/Cordial Balm/of Health = I believe without a doubt, AMERICAN !


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## blade (Feb 11, 2011)

picture


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## CazDigger (Feb 11, 2011)

The only way to tell for sure if it is lead glass is thru testing the glass with an XRF (x-ray fluoresence) a -nalyzer. It won't harm the glass and is often used for detecting lead content in paint chips etc. There are other methods which a piece of glass is digested in strong acid and sent through another type of a-nalyzer that will give very precise measurements of all the elements. Not something you want to do with a rare bottle, but maybe a shard.


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## CazDigger (Feb 11, 2011)

I agree Blade, but if that bottle was clear I think most of us would assume British due to the embossing font.


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## earlyglass (Feb 11, 2011)

Great stuff guys, and a very well-written explanantion Mark! I certainly understand what you are saying about the characteristics of an English bottle, but I still believe that some of this glass was created here. I don't have anything in my collection to use as an example, but one piece comes to mind that I handled a couple of months ago. It was a 6" rectangular bottle in that gray flint glass, solid pontil, flared lip, embossed "Shaker Syrup / Enfield, NH". I had never seen another like it.

 I do have a picture of some of my clear blown three mold flint glass (attached). It is clearly American glass made between 1815-1825. So why not medicine bottles? It is obvious that there were almost a 1/2 dozen glass factories producing such glass in the states during this time... wouldn't it make sense that they would have produced medicine bottles as well?

 Mike


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## baltbottles (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm sure many of these Flint Glass Works were likely producing other Druggists and Chemists wares such as beakers for measuring and vessels for compounding different drugs. Along with apothecary bottles for storage of drugs and chemicals. So I would bet that embossed bottles for druggists would not be a far stretch from what they normally produced.

 Chris


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

We have a slight problem cropping up. We keep referring on this thread to "flint glass" (i.e clear glass) but not specifying whether it is lead flint glass or non lead flint glass. However, perhaps apart from the fact that I have yet to see a true lead glass definitive American made med (and remember we are really talking abouts meds here for the moment because they seem to have rules applying almost to themselves) and that most clear glass probable American meds I've seen are not lead glass, perhaps this difference doesn't really matter, or is a side issue. Except that it is generally accepted that lead clear glass came before non lead clear glass, so therefore theoretically any very early American made clear glass meds SHOULD be lead glass.
 Next point, from some of the above items which do have all the appearance of lead glass (thanks Balt) it would appear we have evidence you did have lead glass, so theoretically would have used it for your meds or at least some of them. The only comment I would make is if those patterned wares shown above are minimum 1825 ish then really we are getting to the period when lead glass was going out of fashion/usage, at least for meds, certainly in England where we were beginning to use other ingredients for clear glass. The exceptions of course were for glass that need to be soft and thick walled for complex cutting and polishing, typically decanters. Meds however did not especially need this, their only criteria being to be cheap and easy to produce. 
 If 1825 ish is the earliest definite evidence of American lead glass then it is understandable we won't see much definite American lead glass meds before that. 
 The DR Braddee is a classic of course. It has always looked far earlier than the evidence tells us it should be, but if lead glass is rare in early American usage then it is understandable that the Braddee bottle is this colour. Note also it does not have the classic flared lip that it "should have" to be English. I've not seen the pontil on these but am told it is solid so fair enough. What I actually find more interesting as far as this thread goes is the clear glass plainer Braddee Cordial Balm example, which does have a flared lip of sorts but, very subtly is not quite the flared lip of classic English (would be good to compare here to a square Gilliad or similar for a lip comparison Jerry???? to show what I mean?). I haven't seen the pontil on this either and would be fascinating to do so but it was descrobed as open. It does also have the overall appearance of the plain multi sided bottle we were shown earlier, that lip in particular, which is just not quite right for English somehow. Also, on that example, looking very carefully at the pontil and we have really a very shallow blowpipe (open for you guys) pontil, not a true solid rod pontil, or that;'s how I see it anyway. Many of these pontils can be confusing in this way, and I don't suppose we should be pedantic, but because of both these aspects I would point towards chances of Early American, rather than English on this one. That multi sided shape is not common for English either. It does however have the appearance from the pics at least of lead glass..../
 I'm getting a bit worried here guys though about me making all these comments based only on images and without being able to handle the bottles. So probably I've said enough for now. over to you Jerry, for further UK response!


 egc   www.earlyglass.com


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Stiegel advertised he was the first flint glass factory in Pennsylvania in 1767.Caspar Wistar was making flint glass in New Jersey as early as 1750.Stiegels perfume,toiletry bottles and decanturs clear or white in color that were enalmed with flowers,homes,people,ect were flint glass. I have quite a few of them.I also have engraved glassware that is flint made there and at Amelungs glass works.These glass makers were no fools they knew what flint was and how much more appealing it was then clear bottle glass.In order to compete with the British they were forced to become flint glass manufactures.A picture of a stiegel flask painted by Sebastian Witmer. A good article. http://www.horseshoe.cc/pennadutch/religion/churches/emanuel.htm


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## bostaurus (Feb 11, 2011)

It can all be quite confusing...I need a expert living here in Madison... Maybe I should have invited Chris over and asked him these questions before I left Maryland!


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## blade (Feb 11, 2011)

Bottom of Braddee.


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## Road Dog (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks Blade I was gonna post the bottom


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

......ooh wow, yes, totally blowpipe pontil, totally early American, imo....
 egc   www.earlyglass

 back later in response to the halfpost steigel flasks......[]


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## earlyglass (Feb 11, 2011)

Guys, 

 Keep in mind that Boston was a HUGE producer of flint glass prior to 1825...

 BOSTON FLINT GLASS WORKS
 BOSTON FLINT GLASS COMPANY
 PHOENIX GLASS WORKS (Thomas Cains)

 Joan Kaiser's book discusses these in some detail , and provides information on some of the bottles produced. I will take a better look when I have a little more time. I will also keep my eye out for early flint glass suspects...

 Thanks for all of the contributions. This type of a forum enables collectors to share thoughts from different perspectives... it is a powerful tool that previous generations of collectors were unable to utilize!

 Mike


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## tigue710 (Feb 11, 2011)

I see typing on my iPhone with auto correct is effecting my grammar!  One factor ive speculated on as a difference between American and English glass is the amount of glass used in the gather... American glass tends to be lighter, bottle with much thiner walls and flared lips...

 I have been talking in a much broader area also, from pre revelation through the 1840's, but I think some of the most important factors in American glass production were the events leading up to and the results of the war of 1812... This has been a most interesting thread, the bradee bottle is still a mystery to me?


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## Road Dog (Feb 11, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing about the weight and wall thickness. The English meds I do have seem heavier constructed and the American stuff much lighter and fragile.


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## blade (Feb 11, 2011)

Matt, the Braddee bottle was as light as a puff bottle, of about the same dimensions, very thin walled.


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## earlyglass (Feb 11, 2011)

The Americans wanted to copy the English imports, however, they were still cheap yankees... os should I say, frugal yankees! 
 So the glass may have been less refined, lighter weight, etc.

 Yes, that Braddee bottle is really nice... looks better here than in the catalog.

 Mike


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

From Mckearin the following:


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Again Mckearin next page.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

So now we have officially our first glass works in our new nation and they are advertising white glass.


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## tigue710 (Feb 11, 2011)

Typeface, that's the word... The braddee is speculated to be a Baltimore product right?  (it's coming back to me). I wonder what the serifs font means to American production, how much was it used, or was it specially ordered for that British look?  Could the mold have been British and shipped overseas?


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## kungfufighter (Feb 11, 2011)

One of the potential pitfalls in this discussion is properly distinguishing between "white glass," "clear glass," "flint glass" and "lead glass."  The "American" glassmaking lexicon does not necessarily do a good job of defining these terms.


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## CazDigger (Feb 11, 2011)

Jeff, not to mention colored lead glass......


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

...one of my original points.....google flint glass and you will get a number of conflicting opinions relating to it, and especially what is used to be.
 True Lead glass is something different again, which did/does contain powdered flints (as does ordinary flint glass) but which also contained oxide of lead which helped make it softer and thicker and helped make it last longer. This element is usually put down as a George Ravenscroft production in 1675, but of course he was just the guy who put a patent on it! there will have been other leadglass around before this.,..!
 True Flint glass is made from powdered flint rather than silica, which gives it a clearer colour than standard silica based glass which contains impurities (usually iron oxide) and therefore usually has a green (aqua)colour

 However, our problem - ALL clear glass, whether flint, leadflint or even later soda lime clear glass was CALLED "flint glass" at the time (18th and 19thC's), essentially the word for CLEAR glass.....and obviously it's still happening..... 

 The early English med's (and I'm talking about 18th and VERY early 19th C were usually leadglass if they were not coloured. Later English clearglass meds obviously adopted the soda lime methods which were replacing lead around 1840+

 Other clearglass around in the 18th and early 19th may or may not have used varying amounts of lead accordingly. I say again, Obviously there is plenty evidence of CLEAR glass being produced in early America, probably this will be FLINT glass, but so far it seems that there was very little LEAD FLINT glass in America before 1800's

 Hopefully that's a little clearer....Ugh my head is spinning![]

 egc  www.earlyglass.com


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Jeff, I think certain levels of the upper crust of the populace demanded fine leaded glass ware and they could not be fooled by cheap imitations just like you and I can differentiate between Acme brand Cola and Coca Cola.I tend to beleive these early works in the colonies were in fact producing lead glass ware.I do agree with you there are absolute differences in the deffintions of leaded glass you raise.


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

...reading through my last post, and thought I should explain that the introduction of soda lime and similar advances to help clear glass generally allowed the use of silica once again, rather than powdered flint. Silica (sand) was obviously much cheaper than powdered flint.
 Actually you go through glass history and it goes round in cycles, different materials being used, dropped and re-discovered and re-used in different ways throughout the centuries, so it gets difficult talking about evolutionary developments!!!
 egc


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Steve/sewell
> 
> Jeff, I think certain levels of the upper crust of the populace demanded fine leaded glass ware and they could not be fooled by cheap imitations just like you and I can differentiate between Acme brand Cola and Coca Cola.I tend to beleive these early works in the colonies were in fact producing lead glass ware.I do agree with you there are absolute differences in the deffintions of leaded glass you raise.


 that does make a lot of sense and is quite probable.
 egc


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Mark (earlglasscollector) you wont be a junior member here at the forum for long if this post keeps up.[]Great job posting here and your website is awesome.British things I love,The Lotus automobile an engineering wonder,The Beatles,Benny Hill,Monty Python,Winston Churchill,all of your accents and your old meds which brings me to ask you a question?Do you have any of the early pre 1820 Daffys bottles available for sale.If so could you Private Mesage me,I have always wanted one of those as I feel they are the best looking early med ever made.Thanks Steve.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

While I don't have anything in my collection equal to the Braddee bottle, I do have a question that somewhat pertains to this thread, and while all the experts are nearby, I'd like an opinion from anybody out there. This little guy (gal?) I was fortunate enough to dig in the early eighties, as a late throw in a victorian dump....sorry no pic right now of the pontil, but it's open....American? English? Just some questions I've always wondered about. Thanks ahead to anybody that might know.


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

*


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

What exactly does the embossing say Joe?


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

The Hon.ble (honorable) Lady Hill...quite unevenly and on two lines.... 


 Also for scale and reference the bottle is about 3 inches tall.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

It is a great looking bottle Joe.


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## Road Dog (Feb 11, 2011)

It is originally a British Med. Despite the aqua it does look English don't it?

 The Public are most seriously cautioned against
 various Counterfeit Preparations of the Genuine PEC-
 TORAL BALSAM of HONEY, invented by the late Sir JOHN
 HILL, M.D., and now faithfully preprared from his MS. Re-
 cipes, by his Relict and Executrix, the Hon. Lady HILL, at
 her house in Curzon-street, Berkley-square, London.â€”More
 than 36 years experience has confirmed the unequalled efficacy
 and safety of this elegant Medicine in the immediate relief, and
 gradual cure, of Coughs, Colds, Sore Throats, Hoarseness,
 Difficulty of Breathing, Catarrhs, Asthma, and Consump-
 tions; for it is the greatest preserver of the Lungs, and contains
 all the healing, softening and soothing qualities of that salubri-
 ous extract of flowers called Honey, and the essential parts of
 the richest Balsams; it is restorative as Asses Milk, and never
 disagrees with the stomach. A large tea-spoonful in a wine
 glass of water, is a dose, converting the water into a most
 pleasant balsamic liquor, to be taken morning and evening.
 A common cold yields to the benign influence of this Medi-
 cine in a few hours; and when resorted to before the lungs
 are ulcerated, all danger of consumption is certainly prevented.
 Such are the faint outlines of the merits of Sir John Hillâ€™s Bal-
 sam of Honey, a preparation of most exalted efficacy, the re-
 sult of long researches into nature, by the Linnaeus of Britain;
 a man who dedicated his life to Botany, and justly sought the
 true means of health in the vegetable kingdom; but as the
 severest human laws are unequal to the prevention of extreme
 fraud by coining and forgery, so it is not to be admired that the
 merits of this Medicine have induced base and avaricious men
 to vend counterfeit preparations of it, preparations not merely
 devoid of all efficacy, but also highly deleterious, whereby
 many persons have lost their lives, and others been reduced to
 the brink of the grave in a few days time.â€”Lady Hill desires
 that all persons will take notice, that her Balsam of Honey is
 only to be had at the original Patent Medicine Warehouse, No.
 150, Oxford-street (opposite New Bond-street); E. Newbery,
 corner of St. Paulâ€™s; Tutt, Royal Exchange, London; and
 Clarke, No. 269, Borough; in bottles, price 3s. 6d. each.â€”
 The Genuine may be known by the Signature â€œH. Hill,â€ in
 red ink on the label of each bottle.
 Source: The Times, Friday 15 April 1796 
 [/align]


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks Steve and Rory....Gunth shared some of that info awhile back when Laur posted it over on his site,It's very a very interesting little med,....with a touch of inevitable lip damage....but still one of my favorite dug bottles. Here's a pic of the open pontil (which does look american to me.)


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

One more of the bottle in natural light.








 Also I measured, and it's closer to 4 inches tall.[]


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 11, 2011)

Wow. This thread has grown somewhat since I last looked at it. Lots of food for thought.

 I should say again: there's plenty of evidence that American glasshouses were manufacturing embossed flint glass bottles, including medicine bottles, very early (probably pre-revolution), and probably in some cases in significant amounts. Some of the earliest evidence for that is related to pre-revolution disputes, legal cases, etc, about evasion of duties and so on, I believe that even Robert Turlington himself complained about copies of his bottles being made in the US for sale to druggists, etc (need to track that reference down again to be sure).

 But the US bottle glass industry was limited in capacity well into the early 19th century (as the famous Dr Dyott himself discovered, and so had to set up his own glassworks as a result).

 By the way, that great little Honble Lady Hill bottle is probably an American made example, copying the British ones which are flint glass, solid pontil, etc, etc. There's a long list of medicines and other products that started out as 100% British, and which were exported to the US in British made bottles, but which were quickly copied in the US, and sold in copied bottles. These include, amongst others:

 - Turlingtons Balsam
 - Balsam of Honey
 - Dalby's Carminative
 - Essence of Peppermint
 - Mounsey's Salts
 - Buchans Hungarian Balsam (probably - I haven't yet seen one that I'm really confident is British, although I've got a flint glass example)
 - Rowlands Macassar Oil

 and so on. 

 Copied bottles for use in the US were sometimes ordered from British glasshouses by the American retailers and exported empty from the UK, and sometimes were manufactured by US glasshouses. So for all of these, there are British bottles and US bottles to be found. The US bottles as a rule copied at least the aproximate shape and size of the British originals. 

 Turlingtons is an example of a medicine where both almost certainly happened from as early as the 18th century. There was probably a trend for the majority of these bottles to be imported from Britain early on, but for the home-grown copies to become more dominant as time went on and the glass industry in the US became better established. Certainly by the mid 19th century Dalby's, Turlingtons, and so on made in the US in a characteristically US style are far more common than British made ones, or ones that copied the British style.

 But to add to the confusion quite a few British medicines and other products continued to be imported to the US throughout the 19th century, in British bottles, and don't seem to have been copied in the US or sold in American made bottles. Why? I've got no idea. Daffy's Elixir is an example (It would be a real surprise to ever see a definitively American Daffy's bottle, but I live in hope).

 If anyone isn't confused yet, there are other types of situations which seem to have gone on as well. Church's Cough Drops, for example, is a nightmare.

 Dr Church started selling his medicines in London but emigrated to Philadelphia before 1800. He left the British rights to his medicine to a company in London (Shaw & Co, later Shaw & Edwards, and then finally Edwards alone) but manufactured and sold his cough drops himself in the US, both in Philadelphia and within a few years in New York. The company seems to have continued to use British made bottles in the US for many years - several decades in fact - and may even have used both British made and US made (aqua, small OP) bottles alongside each other. 

 But British Church's Drops bottles from Shaw & Co, and from Shaw & Edwards, and E.Edwards, turn up quite regularly in the eastern US so they were obviously being imported even while Dr Church himself was marketing his own stuff in the US. There are also British style generic Church's Drops bottles (no company name, only "Church's // Patent // Cough Drops // London") that turn up, identical, on both sides of the Atlantic. They are almost certainly British made, but it's impossible to know if those found in America were sent there full or empty. There's only one flint glass Church's bottle that I know of only from the US: "Church's // Improved // Cough Drops // London". I've never yet seen a Church's bottle embossed with either the New York of Philadelphia addresses: seems that even the US operation retained the 'London' embossing (check out the labelled example in the photo. It's got the 'Improved' version of the embossing which so far I only know of from the US).

 On the subject of transatlantic trade: Swaim's Panacea was advertised in London as early as the 1820s, but I've never heard of an early Swaim's bottle being found here. Wouldn't a British made 1820s Swaims bottle be something?


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 11, 2011)

The 'London' embossing is visible through the label in this photo.


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 11, 2011)

Yeah, I'm pretty permanently confused about which bottles are British and which are American, but it gets worse. You know those 6-sided colognes from J.M.Farina/Cologne?

 Here's a page from an 1849 catalogue for a glass bottle works in my home town of York in northern England. Copying of bottles from one country in the glasshouses of another was a pretty widespread practice, it seems.


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## kungfufighter (Feb 11, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  JOETHECROW
> 
> The Hon.ble (honorable) Lady Hill...quite unevenly and on two lines....


 
 Nice bottle Joe!  Yours is almost certainly an American made example IMHO.


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## tigue710 (Feb 11, 2011)

That's a brain teaser for sure, I've dug those perfumes in thin window glass, (aqua) and heavy and thin clear glass with tubular pontils and sheared or inward rolled lips while also finding them with solid bar and fluted or sheared lips in heavy and thin clear glass!  I believed they were made here, across the pond and in other eouropean countries... Who knows!

 That a sweet little bottle joe, I would guess English until I saw the tubular pontil... I guess there isn't a rule, maybe just a loose guide line to probability, while still some glass you can just tell anyway...  Now I'm questioning my own judgement!


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 11, 2011)

Thanks Jeff,...and everyone else, for the input, (I hold all of your opinions in high esteem)... and this great thread...I've got this little devil right in front of me, and am amazed everytime I look at it that I was lucky enough to dig it...even though it's been 30 years ago...I need to put it back in the showcase...love all the crude english/american examples showing up on here....Please keep them coming.


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 11, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: JOETHECROW
> 
> Thanks Jeff,...and everyone else, for the input, (I hold all of your opinions in high esteem)... and this great thread...I've got this little devil right in front of me, and am amazed everytime I look at it that I was lucky enough to dig it...even though it's been 30 years ago...I need to put it back in the showcase...love all the crude english/american examples showing up on here....Please keep them coming.


 
 ...going back to this bottle that started this super thread, my very first thought was that it was unusual in two respects. Unusual for English that is. First it's length, unusual to see on equite so long and narrow. We usually only see that form and proportion in early 19thC clear glass lead phials. Second is the colour, not in itself of course but that it is th later long bodied form in a dark aqua that we are far more used to seeing in 18thC.
 SO.....I'm going to suggest, and this is going to throw you again, there IS a possibility it could be American?......what do you think Jerry?

 This is an excellent thread as several have said. It's been really refreshing to have loads og guys chatting about good early stuff, throwing ideas and suggestions and examples of different aspects back and forth for discussion....and do you know the best bit? NOT ONCE has anyone here asked what the value of anything is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 We wouldn't find that in aUK forum![X(]
 egc


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## blade (Feb 11, 2011)

Do any of you guys or gals know who ended up with the Braddee bottle ?


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## CazDigger (Feb 11, 2011)

I believe it went to Jim Chebalo from PA. aka Medflask on ebay


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Just found this combing through my old newspapers.The Monday April 19th 1813 edition of the General Aurora Advertiser Market Street Philadelphia.
 Right under the date Richard Barrington has a few groce of Bristol bottles for sale.Here is a Philadelphian importing Bristol glass.The second column 4th ad down in bold print twice in the same ad as though to get a point across,Flint Glass Manufactory Trevor & Encell Pittsburgh Pennsylvania.Now here you have a firm all the way out in Pittsburgh advertising in a Philadelphia Newspaper they have flint glass for sale.It looks as though a lot of glass was coming and going from Philadelphia in 1813.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Tough to read I know here are some close ups.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

The Bristol bottles ad.


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## kungfufighter (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, lots of former Colonists (and newfound "Americans") looking for any way to make a buck.  Even in the midst of and aftermath of the War of 1812 there were still plenty of folks in these "United States" with business ties to England and others with lingering feelings that "English glass is the best glass."  Tariffs were not as effective as they may have been in that folks charged with upholding the law would often look the other way in order to protect their own relationships abroad....


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

One more a J M Farina Cologne bottle I found here near my home.This bottle was discussed earlier in this post.Got to run for now.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Number 2.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry for the big pictures.


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## CazDigger (Feb 11, 2011)

Here's one that one of our members (DiggerDirect) just listed on ebay. 
Henry's Calcined Magnesia


 You make the call?? Is this one USA or UK??????


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## earlyglass (Feb 11, 2011)

English IMO. 

 Manchester, solid rod pontil, English font style, maybe a little later 1840s?  

 Am I close?


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## wolffbp (Feb 11, 2011)

English
 Same reasons as Mike's (esp. Manchester w/o a state abbrv. after it)


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## Road Dog (Feb 11, 2011)

Just got one of those Henry's off Ebay. This one is English too. Steve's Farina bottle is nice has a English  look to it. 
 I put my clears together.


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 12, 2011)

Great newspaper adverts. Thanks for posting them.

 Mark, I have to admit I don't know about the phial that originally started this thread. 

 Those are some good looking clear glass bottles: amazing lip on that little bottle on the right (a Rowlands?). Is the Reynolds Specific pontilled? Very rare with pontil. I've only ever managed to pick up hinge mould, which are much easier to get.


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## Road Dog (Feb 12, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  deepbluedigger
> 
> Great newspaper adverts. Thanks for posting them.
> 
> ...


 

 Thanks, The Rowlands is a Kirby St and has lip damage. I think alot of them ended up damaged as they are such narrow bottles with those heavy tops. I wish that Reynolds was pontilled, but it's not [:'(] !


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## baltbottles (Feb 13, 2011)

Here is a link to an interesting flint glass medicine I dug a few years ago. It had a solid rod pontil and looked very British
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-106024/mpage-1/key-glover/tm.htm#106328

 Chris


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## Road Dog (Feb 14, 2011)

Henry's I just got from the mailman. It's a obvious grey color probably English. Bottle has killer etching on it if your into that sort of thing.


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## Road Dog (Feb 14, 2011)

Bottom


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## midway49 (Feb 14, 2011)

Great thread with interesting discussion.  Now that everyone is well versed-  American or English?


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## midway49 (Feb 14, 2011)

Pic


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## midway49 (Feb 14, 2011)

Pic


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 14, 2011)

Are you asking us or quizing us?[] I would say British because of the font and shape of the lip.Nice bottle by the way how old is it?


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## midway49 (Feb 14, 2011)

Asking, because I don't know.  Dr Braddee died in U.S. prison 1840 or 1841.


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## David Fertig (Feb 14, 2011)

I have never thought much about this topic, but I have certainly learned a lot in the last hour!

 Thank you.

 Now for my where from.  I say it leans towards a light green tint.  Just a shade or two past aqua.  What type of pontil is this?

 Thanks,
 Dave


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## David Fertig (Feb 14, 2011)

pontil


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 15, 2011)

Basically it's continental style, so either French/Belgian/North German, (that neck is classic) or just possibly made by one of those guys in America?...but from experience I talk less and less about this latter factor, as although there are good instances of say German immigrant blowers in groups doing "their thing" in exactly the same way in America as they did in the home country, I do feel that in general the tendency would have been certainly for individuals to curtail their own whims and fancies and fit in with the rest of the guys in the glasshouse....
 But back to your phial, late 18th, very early 19th. being such a small phial it is perhaps likely to have been brought over for private use (medicine/smelling salts etc)in any case. The pontil is essentially a blowpipe one, but which is so thick and clumsy it appears more or less solid rod pontil, something which often happened with very small phials. The near clear glass, and reasonably thin walls another clasic criteria. It is almost certainoy not lead glass but likely a potash base decolourised with one of a variety of ingredients of the time. the length and clearness tends to put it later rather than earlier.
 egc  www.earlyglass.com


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 15, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: midway49
> 
> Great thread with interesting discussion.  Now that everyone is well versed-  American or English?


 
 ooh, now that is what I wanted to see...this is the braddee that intersts me even more (academically) than the coloured one. You have there what really lookd lead glass, does look like a solid pontil foe once, has the flared lip near enough, reasonable seriffed typeface, but totally attributable to an early American who no way had previous connections with any other country. Soooo....it is either an English made example for Dr Braddee, or wait for it....(as I rather wondered it might be when I first saw some small images of it) one of the first instances of a totally English style med made in America......! Banners out, trumpets sounding please!!!!!!

 .....Afraid though guys, I'm going to plump for safety and at this point say in my hiumble opinion more likely made in UK for Dr Braddee as a custom order... groan...trumpets fade discordantly....banners crash to the ground.....
 My reasons.....
 1...I want to see a hell of a lot more bottles of this style of manufacture like this found in US to justify even one American factory making them exactly English like this....
 2...The differences between this bottle and the other earlier coloured Braddee example. I feel that likely Dr Braddee made his money with the first bottle (American made undoubtedly) and similar, and then later he could afford the luxury of ordering "true British made" quality bottles which I'm sure there was a tendency even then following the war etc, to see as better quality, which would have aided his marketing.
 3...The fact that this bottle IS so different to his previous bottle - why not just carry on making them at your local glasshouse? Other local glasshouses would have blown similar style items to the first...this later bottle is just such a departure in style, he has to have gone to a glasshouse in quite a different area to have got such a different style bottle, yet we are also talking not a great deal of difference in the dates - he was not operating long enough for that.

 Just my opinion, and hope it doesn't upset anyone[]. Don't think it should affect any values either way. it's a superb very important bottle for early American History.
 egc   www.earlyglass.com


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 15, 2011)

...as for the Henry's though, well I guess I'll leave musings on that answer to Jerry. He has some interesting ideas about them....
 egc  www.earlyglass.com


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## earlyglass (Feb 15, 2011)

Mark,

 There should never be any offense taken from collectors on the forum. I enjoy hearing your thoughts on this stuff, and it gives us a collector's perspective from another angle. 

 I came across an interesting bottle over the weekend. This one is a "Bradlee's" in a clear flint glass. I am not sure of the flint content, the glass was light but thinner than most. It had a solid pontil and a flared lip. It is embossed "Dr. Bradlee's / New England Cough Restorative or Tonic / Boston".

 Any thoughts? To me, the bottle has English characteristics, however, clearly made for the American market, specifically New England. This may be the type of medicine produced at the Boston Flint Works. Please let me know if you have ever encountered this bottle or Dr. Bradlee. 

 Mike


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## earlyglass (Feb 15, 2011)

another shot...


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## kungfufighter (Feb 15, 2011)

Pic of the base Mike?  My initial "gut" is that it ooks to be an American made bottle...


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## earlyglasscollector (Feb 15, 2011)

Mmmm yes nice. No I haven't seen that one before. Do you think he might be spinning off Dr Braddee?...whatever, fascinating bottle, as you say, initially English characteristics, but after this intense cogitation of the last few days I am beginning to see some ultra subtle tendencies separating . The brightness of the glass, the slight thinness of the lettering, somehow not quite the boldness I see on most English, without quite the contrast of stroke weights, (sorry getting into my typographer jargon here). Add the Boston very logical connection and we could have one of their "flint glass" productions.....what is also interesting to me is the similarity of observations I have just made, with the same observations for the Henry's bottles....? I'm pre-empting Jerry here, but I've never been totally happy with English attribution on those, at least the majority of those American found ones (I have had totally definitiely English found examples of the Henry's, really quite different). So we might be making links here with those also?
 All just opinion of course...
 egc


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## tigue710 (Feb 15, 2011)

I would almost certainly say American.  The typecase is correct although not normal, the glass looks right also.  The interesting use of new England leads to suspect it might have been American made for the English market...


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## tigue710 (Feb 15, 2011)

It says hair restorative correct?


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## earlyglass (Feb 15, 2011)

American made for the English market... that is an interesting thought.

 Yes, it says "Restorative" on two lines. 

 It is not my bottle, but I saw it over the weekend so I took a couple of pictures just for the thread. This person has dozens of clear "flinty" bottles which he believes to be American. This one intrigued me because it had a very "English" look. 

 Mike


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## tigue710 (Feb 15, 2011)

Sort of a shot in the dark there as for an English market, but the font or typecase does seem to be a Stlye in use in the states at the time and a close copy although not quite what was being used in english glass?  It is strange to see new England embossed, it would almost only be used that way to target a market outside of new England?

 I think one of the best examples of the differences between American and English made bottles are the kings patent catarh (?) snuff bottles.  Theyre are examples in aqua window glass from a later date, (1840-50's) that show great difference between manufacture.  I had an English variant I dug but can't find the pics...


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 16, 2011)

One of the greatest things about this hobby: huge surprises lurking around every corner, whether that corner is down a hole in the ground, or in a library (or online). There's some research in progress about US vs British bottles (not by me, so I don't know when it will be published) that is relevant to one or two iconic bottles, and that will seriously surprise most collectors.

 Known bottles I think it's POSSIBLE were manufactured in the US in flint glass with UK style pontils include (but are not limited to):

 - Later style pontilled Henry's Magnesia, as above.
 - The Bradlee's bottle, as above.
 - Buchans Hungarian Balsam (when encountered with thin 'spidery' embossing). The well known aqua, heavily embossed, OP, Buchans, I'm 99.9% sure is US made.
 - Byam's, Whitwells, and a couple of other New England opodeldocs of the pre-1840 period. These ones are pushing it a bit, and really do look British made, but there's no conclusive evidence one way or the other.

 But I could be completely wrong (as I've already said, it wouldn't be the first time). That's why I'm looking for hard evidence from archaeological studies, including analyses of glass doing the obvious comparisons between frit and/or glass crucible deposits from glasshouse sites, and identifiable bottle or waster sherds, as per this study in London. That evidence doesn't seem to exist at the moment. But hopefully someone here can prove me wrong about that?


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## JOETHECROW (Feb 16, 2011)

> One of the greatest things about this hobby: huge surprises lurking around every corner, whether that corner is down a hole in the ground, or in a library (or online).


 

 That's a fact! It's always been that way for me,...in the early days, discovering such cool things as Pontils,...Sun colored glass, variants of cool known bottles, including commons in uncommon colors, New dumps I was unaware of, A farmstead I found by myself through research, that produced bottles...etc,etc...Thanks for that thought.


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## Road Dog (Feb 16, 2011)

Henry's Calcined Magnesia was priced out of the price range of most americans due to import taxes. So, Husband's Calcined Magnesia was created in 1844. These bottles look like the Henry's if you ever seen them. Thought that was interesting.


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 17, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Road Dog
> 
> Henry's Calcined Magnesia was priced out of the price range of most americans due to import taxes. So, Husband's Calcined Magnesia was created in 1844. These bottles look like the Henry's if you ever seen them. Thought that was interesting.


 
 Nice info. Sometimes seems that every bottle type sooner or later throws up something different to throw into the mix.


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## midway49 (Feb 17, 2011)

Interesting note- I was reading some history on Dr Braddee's trial and it was stated that the sheriff recovered some evidence in the privy  (seemed Braddee was throwing paperwork into the pit).
  Does anyone have idea/ knowledge of percentage of American firms  obtaining British made bottles for their products in the 1830's-1840's?  Will chemical composition of the glass be the only way this question is answered?


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## Road Dog (Feb 18, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Road Dog
> 
> Henry's Calcined Magnesia was priced out of the price range of most americans due to import taxes. So, Husband's Calcined Magnesia was created in 1844. These bottles look like the Henry's if you ever seen them. Thought that was interesting.


 

 Just a pic showing the comparison. Also you can see the darkness of the english bottle.


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