# Arrowhead & Indian Artifact Collectors



## bottlekid76 (May 11, 2012)

Hi all,

 Not too long ago the wife and I was out hitting the good ol' city wide yard sales around here and I came upon this bird effigy of an eagle or similar at one of the sales. Now I don't know much of anything of arrowheads or indian atrifacts of the such, but really thought this piece was pretty sweet. I asked the gentleman about it and he said it belonged to his late father, but didn't know any history or provenance beyond that, and being that he had passed several years ago there was just no way to know where his father got the piece. Anyhow, I decided to buy it and it was just as you see in this case. My first thought was wondering if it was original or not so I decided to get it authenticated to find out. Well I got the paper back today and the authenticator Tom Fouts which has a very credible reputation believes it to be genuine and believes it to have been rechipped from an older artifact. He said the chipping shows patina as well and he believes the original artifact is pre-historic but that the chipping was done in the historic period. Not alot of info but pretty neat. I didn't have any info to give him unfortunatley beyond what I was told. I thought you might like seeing some photos of it. I know there are some artifact collectors on here so i'd love to hear your thoughts too! []

 ~Tim


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## AntiqueMeds (May 11, 2012)

interesting item. How do you think it was used?


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## Dugout (May 11, 2012)

I'd say it was used as a ceremonial piece.


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## bottlekid76 (May 12, 2012)

I was told the same thing Renee said, very well could have been a ceremonial piece. These effigys was probably worn on their person, also possibly could have been given as a reward for bravery. Those are what some of the Indian relic collectors have told me. I've heard several theories. I find these very interesting. I was also told that effigys are also one of the most faked or reproduced might be a better term. That was another reason I wanted to have it authenticated. I sure wish I knew more tho. Apparently they made these out of many different things that they seen as well, turtles, birds, deer, bears, etc. I guess the human effigys are the rarest to find from what I have been told. It's definitely not my area, but arrowheads and pieces like this have always fascinated me.

 ~Tim


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## surfaceone (May 12, 2012)

Evening, folks,

 I'd think it would have been handled reverentially.




From.


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## OsiaBoyce (May 12, 2012)

'Salvaged' and 'Re-chipped' means fake in a nice way.

 Did you pay less than a $1000.00?

 What else did he have? If he had this,he should have had a truck load of points. The point being these are so rare, he would have taken years to stumble across one, and found quite a bit more. Then when it was his 'dads' and had no further knowledge, well that says a lot also.

 I don't know Mr. Fouts, but I have been collecting for 40+ years, and ya know how many genuine ones I've came across......zero.

 About 20-25 years ago there was someone making them and planting them to be found. The first one was quite a find,but when 3 popped un in two months, the gig was up.

 Not trying to rain on your parade, just being realistic.


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## bottlekid76 (May 12, 2012)

He didn't have any other artifacts in the yard sale. There was just a mixture of things that belonged to his father in boxes and was just trying to sell the items in them. I can't say either way Pat, as it's not my area of collecting and don't have the knowledge in that field. I do know tho that some of Tom Fouts collection and acknowledgement is in the Robert Overstreet Official Guide to Arrowheads. He's pretty well known and credited in the field. I trust his authentication of the piece. He believed that the re-chipping was possibly done 2-3 hundred years ago based on the patina seen under the medical microscope he uses on the edges, but that the artifact itself was very much older.

 No offense taken, just putting what I was told out there []

 ~Tim


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## CALDIGR2 (May 12, 2012)

ALL supposed "thunderbird" effigies are fantasy pieces and nothing else. No age beyond a couple of decades.


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## bottlekid76 (May 13, 2012)

Hi Mike,

 Yeah people are all across the board on the thunderbirds, with most it seems believing that they are fakes. Tom never claimed that it was a prehistoric original, just what he stated that it was rechipped from a prehistoric artifact. I hope that came out right in my earlier posts. If not, that is what I meant. He mentioned that since the chipping is starting to show some light patina that it wasn't done anytime recently. Bottom line is there's just no way to know for certain when that part was done exactly. So much is speculation.

 Most of what I have read is that since no archies have documented a find of a flint one from a recovery, that the general concensus is 99.9% are fakes or modern. I don't disagree with that, and have seen quite a few online of the fakes. 

 Pat- I didn't give much for it, it was at a yard sale

 Thanks guys, []

 ~Tim


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## AntiqueMeds (May 13, 2012)

> no archies have documented a find of a flint one from a recovery


 
 yes, that's a tough point to get past.


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## bottlekid76 (May 13, 2012)

Indeed Matt


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## AntiqueMeds (May 13, 2012)

When I dug in college (with an archaeologist) we found some pretty odd stuff.
 We found a huge human femur which was polished like a war club. Guessing it was a trophy item. Someone did the David and Goliath deal I guess[]
 We also found a large cooking pot that had a human hand and part of a jaw in it. Yum.
 Right before I got there they dug a burial which had 15,000 shell beads and copper earings on it.
 Not much in the way of good lithics though in Tidewater VA.


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## lexdigger (May 13, 2012)

I'm gonna say that this is a modern day flint knappers fantasy piece. These are often sold at tourist attractions on or near Indian Reservations. 

 A True native american effigy artifact would be much more elaborate than this and would be made of a much higher quality stone. 

 If it does not have an authentic Davis, Jackson, Rogers or Perino Paper... the paper is pretty much worthless. Just about Every artifact collector with a website is now offering this service, but many do not have the knowledge to provide accurate information.


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## Plumbata (May 14, 2012)

Interesting piece, but I agree with everything Lexdigger said.

 It would have been more fancy; that looks more like a "craft" item than an attempt at art (saw a modern bear chipped out of an old scraper not too long ago, much like your piece), and whatever patina may have been seen on the newer chips could have been placed intentionally by the maker, or deposited after a week or two of carrying in a pocket or handling with hands not totally clean and free from skin oils. I unintentionally "aged" several items when I was younger by carrying them around and showing people. Bit more careful about that now.

 Hope it's the real deal, but doubt it so I'd just try to sell it on eBay and use the proceeds towards getting more of those fine old sodas you like, and which are a bit easier to date too. []


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## OsiaBoyce (May 14, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: Plumbata
> 
> Interesting piece, but I agree with everything Lexdigger said.
> 
> ...


 
  "Sell it on ebay"...........seems ol' Plumb is in favor of perpetuating a fraud. Seems we know his mind works now huh?[]

  How about this, next time you are in doubt about the authenticity of an object......just whip this bad boy out and remind yourself how easy it is to get dupped.

 Here's a little ditty to sing when you take it out for a peek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMxNyBXK7_E


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## Plumbata (May 16, 2012)

No, you really don't, but we know how your mind works.

 By "sell it on eBay", I figured it was understood that the certificate would be included, doubts of age voiced by skilled collectors here referenced along with the circumstances surrounding the acquisition, and the admission by Tim that he isn't an expert. Maybe get 20 bucks back to spend on bottles. I was going to post that more or less, but figured anyone with an ounce of smarts would understand the intent of the suggestion so decided against writing an even longer post.

 Apparently some people possess far less than an ounce of smarts, though.

 You're quite the pessimistic, mean old man. What happened to you to make you jump to the absolute worst conclusions about everyone?


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## bottlekid76 (May 16, 2012)

I've wondered that too Stephen. Anyhow, I don't plan on selling it and just think it's a pretty cool piece either way.

 Aside from that Stephen, mentioning the sodas, i've been working on getting a really _tough_ one for over a month now. Hopefully it will be here sometime late this week or early next. I'ts been on my want list for quite awhile and very lucky to have a shot at it. Will post some photos when it arrives! []

 ~Tim


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## OsiaBoyce (May 17, 2012)

".....mean old man....".........because I'm honest and I put thought in my assessments? Maybe it could be an accumulation of all I have experienced in life that I can do this, I hate to tell ya, I don't sugarcoat anything, nor do I sing praises or laud mediocrity in any form.

 ....and you say "....it was understood that the certificate would be included..."

 Plumb, did you read the 'certificate'? It means nothing and just was a nice way to tell bk76 it's a fake/fantasy piece. Now, you in your youth, you try to backpedal to try to save face, and make a poor attempt at insults.

 Ok, here it is,the gist of the matter, can you tell me one redeeming benefit to either bottlekid76 or an unsuspecting buyer of this or any fake or fraudulent object?


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## glass man (May 17, 2012)

What ever it is a cool looking piece....My pop  was in the CCC during the Depression..one of the things he did was work with archeologists on digging up an Indian camp[can't remember the tribe] it was in Nevada and was being done before it would be flooded by the Hoover Dam being built...Dad said the interesting thing was how well preserved things were since it was desert..he said the bows still hd strings on them and the skulls still had hair....JAMIE


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## glass man (May 17, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> 
> Evening, folks,
> 
> ...


 

 SURF MAN..is this a picture of the bird the Indians made at ROCK EAGLE GEORGIA? No one really has any idea why they did this..it was dug up to see if any thing was buried underneth...thinking maybe it was a burial ground of a great cheif or some thing..it was put back..they just can't leave nothing the heck alone...As the pic. shows you can only tell it is a "bird" from above..which is puzzling..one of those things that make people think it was for folks that may have come from some other planet in they flying saucers etc.JAMIE


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## Ohio Rob (May 20, 2012)

Coming from a family that has been hunting arrowheads for 50 years (no buying or selling), I thought I would chime in on this one.  While I think the "Thunderbird" point appears fake and it seems Mr. Fouts is hinting that as well, I would not bet my life savings on it. We have picked up thousands of artifacts over the years and there is one that appears to be a bird or an eagle.  It was found in the late 60's by my father.  It is in the upper left hand part of the display frame.


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## Ohio Rob (May 20, 2012)

Here it is - for comparison the paleo square knife in the middle is 5" long.


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## Ohio Rob (May 20, 2012)

It was found in Holmes County Ohio.  It even has an indentation where the eye would be.


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## AntiqueMeds (May 20, 2012)

that's an odd item.
 It looks like it was originally a projectile point which broke.
 Then it was re-purposed into a hafted scraper or other specialized tool.
 Maybe a paleo bottle openener[]


 very nice blade too...


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## Ohio Rob (May 20, 2012)

Our family is split on this as well (about a dozen collectors).  You have taken the side of the ones who feel it was an arrowhead rechipped to a tool / scraper.  The other half believe it is a "bird" effigy - they believe the eye is too coincidental.  It is an interesting piece and makes for a good debate.  I will give the "tool" arguer's another tally mark[].


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## AntiqueMeds (May 20, 2012)

if you could tie it to a particular site, location, and culture it might make your arguement easier (or more difficult).

 You have some nice early points there.  And maybe some drills in the uppper right?

 Nice thing about lithics is every one is unique.


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## bottlekid76 (May 20, 2012)

Some great pieces for sure there Rob. That's a very interesting bird, I could see it both ways. Very nice!

 ~Tim


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## Ohio Rob (May 20, 2012)

The paleo drills were found in the same field.   Yes, I agree - other site material could help (I never got to hunt it - the field has not been plowed for 30+ years) but I still give it a drive by every year.


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