# English Black Glass or Dutch ?



## daltonbottles (May 28, 2010)

One of the things that really confused me when I first became interested in early colonial period black glass, was how to easily tell English produced pieces from Dutch or Belgian bottles.  Depending on where they spent the past 2 or 3 hundred years, and considering the wide variations in (lip) finishes, surface wear, and patina gathered over the decades and centuries, I saw many "light" English pieces offered as Dutch, and many "dark" Dutch pieces offered as English.  The two primary distinguishing features you really have to watch for are the thickness (and weight) of the glass used in production, and the type of pontil scar within the basal cavity or "kick-up".  With some exceptions, early English black glass was thicker and/or heavier than what was normally used in the manufacture of "Dutch" bottles of very similar design.  By "Dutch", I mean bottle types produced in Holland (Netherlands) and Belgium for the most part, taking the so-called "onion" types as an example.  The English version of the "onion" was normally much darker, at least in "apparent" coloration, because of the heavier and/or thicker glass used in their production, as well as the higher iron oxide content used in the making of the actual glass.  Much English black glass also tends to have more of an amber tint, whether amber-tinted olive green or nearly solid amber tone in color because of the extra oxides used.  Many of the "Dutch" onions also tend to have somewhat longer, and often times wider necks than their English counterparts which had more of a pushed down or "squat" body compared to the more "bulbous" Dutch onions.  Obviously, with mouth-blown bottles, there is sure to be a wide variation in both types.  But the one thing to look at first in distinguishing "English" from "Dutch" is the pontil.  Again, with some exceptions, the early English black glass bottles will bear a large sand pontil scar on their base as opposed to the smaller diameter "open" or blowpipe pontil scar normally seen on Dutch and Belgian bottles.  Also, there are sometimes subtle differences in the lip and string "finishes" between the two types, though there was so much overlap and variation in the earlier (pre-1740) bottle styles that it is often hard to make any determination of provenance based on that characteristic alone.  That was not the case with later cylinder types as was shown by the excellent work of Olive R. Jones in "Cylindrical English Wine and Beer Bottles: 1735-1850".  As with any of this information on primarily pre-1840 English black glass, what you end up with is a "general rule of thumb", but no absolutes.

 Another misnomer I often see in describing later (~1740 to 1820) cylinder style black glass bottles, is the use of the term "free blown", when in fact, dip molds were being used by about the time that the cylinder style bottles came of age.  Some think this may have been the case just near the end of the onion bottle types, although there are "transitional mallets" dating between the onion and mallet that were obviously "free-blown" without the use of the dip mold just prior to its use in production of the true straight-sided mallets.  But here again, there are known examples of true mallet shapes, both free-blown and others blown with the use of dip molds.  There was much use of true "molds" in the blowing of bottle glass at least as far back as first century A.D. Rome, contrary to the common misconception that true "blown-in-mold" bottles didn't come along until the 1820s or so.  In some respects, even the earlier "core-formed" bottles made in the centuries B.C. were basically a type of "reverse" molding process.  But dip mold bottles are too often passed off or overlooked as truly "molded" bottles, in favor of those later pieces produced with the advent of the two and three-piece molds of the early 19th century.

 One thing that I have learned over the years is that one person can look at a shelf of black glass bottles and see "nothing but a bunch of old, ugly, black bottles covered in dirt", but after some interest and study, see a wonderful example of glass bottle evolution that spanned a period of approximately 1630 into the 1870s or 80s, some 250 years or so longer than what most of us see as "truly old bottles".


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## daltonbottles (May 28, 2010)

Here is a good comparative example, English vs. Dutch.  But still just a general rule of thumb.


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## kungfufighter (May 28, 2010)

Great post - thank you!


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## earlyglass (May 28, 2010)

Dalton, 

 Yes, thank you for your educational and enlightening post! Early "Black Glass" is one area that I personally would like to learn more about, however, rarely get the opportunity to make such comparisons as you have made. It seems that there are only a handful of real students researching the characteristics of different origins... so it is always a pleasure to learn about such findings. 

 I have a couple of quick questions... How does the early American 18th century black glass fit into your findings? Understandably, such glasshouses as Germantown and Wistarburgh blew bottles in the methods that specific glassblowers learned from their homelands overseas, however, have you been able to identify specific characteristics which you can call American? Generally, most of the 18th century American glass that I have seen is in the German tradition such as the forms and techniques, however, similar pontil characteristics as the English black glass. Anyways, it would be nice to hear your thoughts on the early American glass. 

 I wanted to ask your opinion of this large handled pitcher. It looks late 18th or early 19th century, however, I am not sure of the origin. Do you have any thoughts on it?

 Thank you in advance!

 Mike


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## earlyglass (May 28, 2010)

another shot


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## earlyglass (May 28, 2010)

pontil base


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## RED Matthews (May 28, 2010)

Hi earlyglass,  That looks like a really neat old product of glass work.  RED Matthews


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## jays emporium (May 28, 2010)

What a timely post.  I got a black glass bottle yesterday I'm wondering how old it is.  I'll post a few pics.


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## jays emporium (May 28, 2010)

It has a unique looking top.  You experts might be able to identify the origin and date range just from this.


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## jays emporium (May 28, 2010)

I know you need to see the bottom.  I don't think it is pontiled but what are those little open cracks?  I've seen that on bottles like this before.


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## jays emporium (May 28, 2010)

There are no mold seams.  I think this might be what you call a dip mold.  There is a raised ridge around the middle I think you can see in this pic.  You can see how crudely the body of the bottle is formed.
 The story the lady told me was that her dad found this bottle 60 feet below the ground surface when he was working on construction of the Hemisfair tower in San Antonio in the 1960's.  So the battle of the Alamo was in 1836, did Davey Crockett or Santa Anna drink from this bottle, or is is a discard from the civil war?  
 Please help, my knowledge of this era is lacking.
 Jay


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## daltonbottles (May 29, 2010)

First off, Mike, you hit on some very good points when taking into consideration the fact that German immigrant glassblowers carried their trade with them when coming to this country in the early days of American glass manufacture.  Obviously, if Bob is playing spades in Germany one month and is still playing spades in America 12 months hence, chances are you wouldn't know one game from the other.  In other words, early glassblowers brought their skills along with them, and it is usually impossible to tell which side of the pond many early bottles originated from.  Especially so into the evolutionary stages of the cylinder shapes, there were no doubt American glassblowers duplicating very closely the wares coming over from England.  Also, since there were usually no identifying markings such as the embossing that took hold on toward the first half of the 19th century on much of the "commercialized advertising" glass when dealing with the earlier black glass types, it is virtually impossible to say that one particular bottle was blown in Germany, Holland, England, or the Americas.  I think it's generally safe to say that there were no large, major commercial glassblowing operations in this country until probably the third or fourth quarters of the 18th century, although there were surely attempts at such start-up concerns in earlier years.  You mention Germantown and Wistarburgh as two of the early operations involving German immigrant glassblowers who simply moved their operations (and talents) to this country and continued much of what they had been doing back in the homeland.

 One of the few and relatively accepted instances of a certain production of black glass bottles that have been identified as originating from here in America were some of the so-called "Baltimore Squats", identified primarily by finish characteristics and tell-tale vertical markings down near the shoulder of the base, apparently left by the dip molds these were blown in.  These are later cylinder types in the black glass chronology and date sometime between around 1780 and 1820, which was also the general time period of the eastern glass houses production of American Chestnut flasks, which also are usually referenced as one of the earlier "mass produced" glass bottles in this country.  Through the years, I have seen many different types of obviously early bottles, flasks, urns, pitchers, etc. which appeared to be made with the same general colors and texture types as used in production of the Chestnuts.  The piece in your pictures, from what I can tell in the photos on my computer, closely resembles this same type of glass, and the finish tooling on your piece, along with the pontil, rolled under lip, pushed-up base and overall general work first strikes me as possibly something from this same period, 1780-1820.  I would guess there are probably a number of noticeable potstones within the glass also, correct ?  Hard to say without a hands on look, but that was my first impression.  In any event, it's a very nice looking piece.

 As far as really nailing down specific origins within glass types that have no other identifying characteristics than the glass and workmanship itself, this is unfortunately another one of those "rule of thumb" situations where you can only make generalizations based on what history of the different material IS actually known.  A good analogy might be trying to tell the difference between a modern glass coke bottle made in Los Angeles from one made in New York using identical dies or molds as well as apparently identical glass.  There is a point where we hit the wall of the unknown, and just have to do the best we can as we continue to dig up new information.  And dig up is virtually what it takes to make such discoveries as the characteristic vertical shoulder marks on those Baltimore bottles.  Most of that information was derived from archaeological digs at locations of known glass houses and the quantity of the "same characteristic" shards and whole vessels pretty much nailed down the probability (thought not the certainty) that those very same bottles were actually in production at that particular site.

 If you would go to the bottleden.com website, there is a pair of articles that covers much of the known information on those Baltimore bottles written by Wil Martindale.  Those two articles, or parts one and two of the primary subject matter, will give you a good feel for the processes used to come to the conclusions on the origin of those particular bottles.  It's some interesting reading.

 Also, while I'm thinking of it, Willie Van Den Bossche published what I like to refer to as "The Black Glass Bible" back in 2001 which is still widely available (but pricey) today, entitled "Antique Glass Bottles - Their History and Evolution 1500-1850" which basically covers the entire history of Black Glass bottle production except for the last two or three decades.  These are generally selling for $250 or so on Amazon, but I recently found a like new used copy to replace my old worn out one for under $50 on eBay.  Even at the higher price tag, it is still probably the best reference work ever done on Black Glass.

 Anyway, I hope this was of some help.

 DB


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## daltonbottles (May 29, 2010)

Jay, your piece looks to be a post 1860 or so dip molded wine bottle from the overall general design, finish, and lack of any obvious pontil scars as best I can tell from the photos.  There does appear to be some pressure cracks at the base, probably created in the production process when the still plastic bottle was removed from the dip mold and the base "pushed up" slightly to insure the formation of the resting rim.  If you look close at the sides, there appears to be a post mold seam slightly visible just near the point where the shoulder curves inward toward the neck, and also a slight bulge at the central portion of the body which also indicates that the glass was still very soft when removed from the dip mold.  As far as the finish goes, on most black glass with applied finishes, you can gauge the vertical width of the upper part of the finish from short to medium to tall and get a good idea as to the date range.  The shorter the top section of the finish (lip) is, the earlier it will generally date.  Yours looks to fall into the mid to late date range which also indicates a date somewhere around 1850-1865 or so.  Again, the lack of a base pontil tends to confirm it as post Civil War, or after 1860-65.  As far as origin, probably either English or American as wine, ale, and liquor bottles dating to that range were still commonly imported on a regular basis.  Strangely enough, the wine bottles seem to have been blown in dip molds after most of the ale and liquor bottles were well into two and three piece mold production techniques.  Once you get into the different mold types after Ricketts, you start to run into some strange combinations that are not always easy to place a date on.  One example is a bottle that I was given by my dad that was dug on the former property of Judge Issac Parker, the famous "Hanging Judge" in Fort Smith, Arkansas.  It's generally a short, squat beer or ale bottle with a later style finish, but was blown in a true two-piece key mold and shows signs of an obvious iron pontil scar within the "keyed" section of the mold halves at the base.  The bottle, from it's characteristics, "should" date both before AND after the Civil War.  I'm still working on that one.


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## daltonbottles (May 29, 2010)

Mike, in re-reading my post to you, I should have indicated those markings on the Baltimore bottles were near the "HEEL", and not the shoulder.  Sorry about that.


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## jays emporium (May 29, 2010)

Thanks, Dalton.  1865 is about what I was thinkin.
 Jay


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## daltonbottles (May 29, 2010)

Jay, I also wanted to mention on your bottle, those base cracks are simply contraction cracks caused either from the slight pushing-up of the base to make the heel more level around the circumference of the base, or more likely, simply cooling contractions from stresses in the glass at the base which is usually thicker toward the middle than at the outer edge.  This caused the thinner glass to cool faster, slightly stretching the still plastic or soft glass at the center, causing the contraction cracks.  Like you say, this is commonly seen on early mouth-blown black glass where pontil scars do not cover them over or even prevent them from occuring.


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## Steve/sewell (May 29, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Dalton,good information we have similar collecting traits.
 The two bottles shown I have posted at the forum before.They were purchased at
 an auction in Mass.The family that owned them stated they were products from the 
 Germantown glassworks in Braintree Mass.The mallet has the transitional look to it no doubt.
 The green bottle is a smaller chestnut type and is in the form of New England type chestnuts
 seen also at Pitkins works.Again welcome to the forum and if you dont mind asking where is home to you.


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## Steve/sewell (May 29, 2010)

number 2


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## Steve/sewell (May 29, 2010)

The mallet bottle is very dark olive green,light has difficulty passing through it.
 Even while using an intense lighting source the bottle is virtually inpenatrable. 
 The mallet has also been pieced back together but is now whole.


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## botlguy (May 29, 2010)

This is a GREAT discussion. THANX to all of you.


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## daltonbottles (May 29, 2010)

Thanks Jim.

 Steve, I retired last year from 29 years in Law Enforcement, bought a nice ranch house in the foothills of the Boston Mountains in Northwestern Arkansas, and generally spend my time loafing, hunting old bottles (moreso on the internet than digging holes anymore) and try to learn a little more about them every day.  My passion, obviously, is black glass.  Just something about it that feels truly "historical" when you consider that when holding an onion bottle or early variation, transitional, or mallet, all of the history that really did occur around the existence of that piece of glass in your hands.  I still pick up an occasional blob soda, hutch, and even a nice early crown now and then, but the black glass and early American blown bottles are always on the top shelf.  I still dream of the day I will hit one of the local antique shops or flea markets and find a nice intact shaft and globe for the ungodly sum of five or ten dollars.  

 Thanks for the pics, nice looking pieces.


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## whiskeyman (May 30, 2010)

DALTON...welcome to the Forum.[]
 Being as this thread has much well researched info, I am considering either pinning it to the top of this topic...or moving it to the Historical Bottles topic > any preferences/opinions?


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## daltonbottles (May 30, 2010)

Whiskeyman, thanks for the welcome.  I hope I can help pass along some good history and information that I have gathered over the years surrounding black glass.

 Feel free to move or pin the thread as you see fit.  Whatever is easiest for you or most helpful to others.

 Thanks again,

 DB


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## earlyglass (May 30, 2010)

Love the family and the relaxation, but I was also very anxious to get back to this thread! 

 Thank you for your response Dalton. Yes, it is extremely difficult to tell the difference between the various origins of black glass... that is why I am so intrigued by the thread and the hope for some enlightenment. Embossed bottles and flasks are quite easy to identify, and numerous references have described and catalogued most bottles. Generally speaking... Color, character and condition separate one from another. However, early freeblown wares and black glass require interpretation and many assumptions based upon the feel of the glass, techniques, and frankly, a "gut feeling". In other words, the collector needs to read the glass rather than the embossing.

 I collect mostly New England glass... bottles and flasks, etc. but I have a dozen or so pieces of black glass. One that comes to mind is an English looking wine bottle, which I assume was produced in the US. It is embossed "ILM Smith / Wine Merchant / Baltimore". I haven't taken the time to research it, however, I am sure that some Baltimore collectors will chime in. Which glasshouse produced it? Without the seal, would it have been passed off as English? 

 I have read Van De Bossche's book, which I found very imformative, however, I would like to see more credit given to the early US glass factories that created identical glass which is always credited or passed off as being foreign. I understand that the idea is that these "styles" are attributed to a particular country, however, new collectors may simply attributed ALL examples rather than making judgement calls. We hear it all the time at shows or forums... "this is a French jar" or "these are Dutch gins". I guess this comes with the territory, since most of this glass is over 200 years old and of very similar styles. Any thoughts?

 Thanks again... I really enjoy the insight.

 Mike


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## earlyglass (May 30, 2010)

Smith bottle...


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## baltbottles (May 30, 2010)

DB so far this has been a interesting thread. And I agree like you, much black Glass attribution is more speculation then real evidence. For instance The Baltimore cylinders with the Notches on the base edge of the bottle. I have seen examples with 2, 3, and 4 of these notches. I know some of these have been Dug in Baltimore. Also you have the Dip molded porters embossed BGW on the side (these have been found in Baltimore but also in other cities). All of these I have seen look to be from the 1800-1830 era and fit in well with Baltimore having an operational Glass House. I however have also Dug a broken cylinder from a circa 1780s-90s context privy embossed IV on the side. So all of these marked dip molded bottles can't be clumped together and attributed to Baltimore. Wil Martindale has done some interesting speculation but there is very little hard evidence in attributing the base notched cylinders and the BGW porters to Baltimore. No archaeology was done at the Federal Hill Glassworks and the site was likely destroyed when Key Highway was built. However I Do have a BGW porter in my collection and believe its likely Baltimore and I am sure its an American made bottle. Simply because by 1800-1810 there were enough Glass houses in operation in this country to meet most of the domestic need for bottles. So imported bottles would have declined greatly. Its far easier to ship liquids in large casks then in thousands of glass bottles. Heres a picture of my BGW porter

 Mike,  I have always liked the ILM Smith bottles I will have to get one sooner or later. what is your guess on the age of the bottle?

 Chris


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## Road Dog (May 30, 2010)

We had an interesting black glass discussion here.
 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,226611.0.html


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## daltonbottles (May 30, 2010)

Good points Chris.  Sometimes our "speculation" and assumptions can get the best of us, and we start to eventually believe what we WANT to be true as opposed to sticking with hard evidence.  Dating bottles is one of those areas where we sometimes want something to be older than it really is, and it's easy to overlook the facts in favor of writing the fairy tale.  Attribution as to place of origin is the same way it seems.  Sometimes we "want" a bottle to be American, so we try to convince outselves that it is in fact American.  Still, without the hard evidence, it all boils back down to speculation and conjecture.

 Mike, you said _"....early freeblown wares and black glass require interpretation and many assumptions based upon the feel of the glass, techniques, and frankly, a "gut feeling_". _In other words, the collector needs to read the glass rather than the embossing_."  You are exactly right.  In the case of early black glass, it's a combination of all of the manufacturing characteristics, including the components of the glass production itself.  It would be interesting to come up with some kind of spectro-analysis of different glass examples around the world to see if there is anything specific that can be attributed to specific locations and differences in glass component materials.  But like you say, sometimes that "gut feeling" based on alot of glass handling can be more accurate than even the best intentioned S.W.A.G. theories (scientific wild-assed guessing).

 As far as wholesale attribution of certain styles of glass being placed with a certain country, alot of that comes moreso from the study of the presence (or lack thereof) of glass blowing operations during the time period in which specific styles were being produced.  With the onion bottles for example, it is unlikely that there were many, if any, major glass operations in the new world during the period that most of these were being made.  There was some speculation at one time of many of the onion bottles being blown in South American port settlements, such as those around the Essequibo reigon of Guyana, but again, that has been written off as speculation until there is some solid evidence discovered indicating that such operations were even in existance in that area at the time.  But with the quantities of onion bottles being recovered from the area, the obvious question comes to mind........ where did it all come from ?  There was of course alot of trade activity in the area of Fort Island which may help attribute the number of such bottles found there, and much of what has been recovered there tends to weigh on the side of the Dutch-Belgian styles, while a smaller percentage of "English" glass seems to be involved.  But how many of these Dutch-Belgian bottles coming on the market today are indeed Essequibo recoveries, and how many are simply lumped into the group while originating elsewhere ?  Again, these are questions, speculations that can probably never be answered with any degree of certainty.

 With sealed bottles, of course we are talking an entirely different ballgame.  These seals are akin to having "Made in China" plainly stamped on the bottom of the wholesale junk sold at the local Wal Mart establishment as far as identification and locale attribution are concerned.  Our problem with much of the mid-18th century and later unmarked glass is that we have a jumble of made in China, made in Japan, made in Tiawan, and made in Singapore all mixed together with no identifying markings other than that very basic group of production and material characteristics.  The best we can do, and as some have very simply done, is to use the sealed bottles as a basis of judging the others with no identifying marks.  You take the "knowns" and apply their characteristics to the "unknowns", and at least there is a basis for opinions offered from the point of educated guessing.  And in many cases, that is the best we can ever hope for until something much more scientific is put into play, such as the possibility of some type of spectro-analysis that can confidently tell us what is what.


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## whiskeyman (May 31, 2010)

DALTON..I think it's more befitting and appropriate to have moved it to the Historic Bottle topic...Hope you agree.


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Dalton,Chris,Mike and Jeff here are some quick to read web pages that will help in determining American made glass.
 This is a great post by the way Dalton.I have been to Wistarburgh (1739 to 1782) I have plenty of shards from the works.
  I have glass from the Stangers Glass works in Glassboro 1775 to 1783 then it became Carpenter and Tonkins with Solomon Stanger still owning a small percentage Solomon then sold his rights to Colonel Thomas Heston in 1786 thus the plant was called Heston and Carpenter.It then became the Olive glass works in 1802 when Colonel Heston passed away and Thomas Carpenter retired Carpenters son Edward took his half of the business and soon widow Bathsheba Heston sold her remaining half also to Edward Carpenter.The Glassboro site should have been studied better then it has  because of the length of operation stradling over 125 years.I have seen quite a bit of early South Jeresey glass in my lifetime within a 30 mile radius of my current home the following glass works existed.Wistarburgh (1739 to 1780),Stanger 1775 to 1783 Heston and Carpenter 1783 to 1789 Eagle Glass Works, at Port Elizabeth 1799, Cape May County glassworks at Marshallville in 1814.The Eagle and Marshallville glass works were set up and built by the Stanger brothers.Quite a bit of glass was manfactured here in colonial times and is in countless museums and private collections.Here are three web sites with some good information gentlemen. 
 http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?calyLang=eng&journal=cjes&volume=41&year=2004&issue=6&msno=e04-006

 http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/sia/31.2/owen.html

 http://www.oldsouthjerseyglass.com/short%20articles.htm

 http://www.oldsouthjerseyglass.com/more%20articles.htm         Look at the pictures of the string lips found at the site.
 Enough have been found and ways have been established to to tell the difference between simple cullet and actual manufacture at the site

 It is absolutley possible to make solid attributions to particular glass works by studying glass batch mixtures.
 Studying Wistarburgh shards and visiting the site is almost like a CSI investigator piecing bits of information together
 to solve a murder mystery.Its like anything in life spend the time do the research show some passion for your particular likes and you will  be sucessfull Remember the glass house workers used tried and true methods and will not stray very far from time tested ways of their particular way of manufacture.
 I hope this is helpfull and lets keep talking about this subject there are some good minds at work here.


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## daltonbottles (May 31, 2010)

> ORIGINAL:  whiskeyman
> 
> DALTON..I think it's more befitting and appropriate to have moved it to the Historic Bottle topic...Hope you agree.


 
 This is fine with me Whiskeyman.  I probably should have posted here to begin with.  Great to be included with the likes of Bill Lindsey.  I have admired his work on bottle identification with BLM.  Great reading.  Thanks.


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## daltonbottles (May 31, 2010)

Great links Steve, thanks very much !  I guess one of my first concerns would be in obtaining "non-destructive" testing or analysis of some kind on fully intact bottles.   Or maybe a n a lysis would work better.


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Dalton here are pictures of glass shards from Wistarburgh.Thousands of pieces of dark glass with the familiar Wistar yellow green have been recovered from the glass works site.It is my and other notable collectors that are 100 percent convinced that the glass blowers at the works made plenty of dark mallet type bottles some quite large measuring over 12 inches in circumference.Starting with very dark olive but yet Wistar green yellow mixed in bottom of a deep push up mallet type bottle.I am totaly convinced this color was made here.Was there cullet mixed in from Dutch and English bottes absolutley.Yet I beleive the final product of the Wistar made push up utilty type bottle were similar to English and Dutch bottles of the same time period.With that said Wistarburgh glass is different from the continental bottles of the same time period.Here are a few pictures of a mallet shard the glass measures over 4 inches in bending length.and at least a 3 inch push up


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Again the blue halo vein seen through out the glass.


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## Road Dog (May 31, 2010)

In case ya'll missed my link. Here is a good discussion on Black Glass.

 http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,226611.0.html


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

As you can tell from the picture there is a lot going on as for the different colors in one piece of dark glass.


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Thanks Rory for the information some real nice bottles are posted.Are you a member at that forum or just a watcher reader of it.
 This is one of my favorite shards it is of the window glass made at Wistarburgh again looking at the glass on the flat side it appears as a pale green
 but turn it on its edge and the gall can be seen again with hints of the halo like blue green color.


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Now the flat side of the glass.


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## earlyglass (May 31, 2010)

A spectro a nalysis of each bottle and shard would be nice, but is obviously not practical. I'm looking for any characteristics which can directly be attributed to certain glasshouses. Steve and I have shards from 18th century glasshouses in the US, Chris digs many 18th century privies, countless other collectors have early black glass in thier collections... so what can we determine, other than we are all nuts!? Well, we can post characteristics findings (even minor) just as Dalton's initial post, that illustrate certain telling signs or particular forms, further adding our thoughts about origin, use, etc.

 For example, here is a bottle (not necessarily black glass, although that would also be a discussion in itself) that I purchased because of shards from the Germantown factory site which revealed to me to be a possible source of the item. After comparison was made, I determined that the form and size were identical, and pontil marks were used with the same tool. The color is slightly different in density, however, simply a different batch or because the fragments are so dirty! Multiple shards of this form were found at the glass site making a strong determination of the source. Anyways, that is the kind of information I am looking for, wiothout getting too deep into the technical aspects. Steve, I really understand your points referencing the "blue" and the gall and imperfections, however, couldn't this be said with most 18th century black glass? Can you give us particular Wistarburgh markings, such as the base marked gins? By the way, I have large pieces of mallets and even onions that were found at Wistarburgh by Boo Morcom. Production or cullet? Hard to say, but the abundance of them points me in the direction of production. 

 Chris, as for the Smith bottle... the cylinder form, lip, and placement of the seal tell me that it is probably 1815 to 1820, give or take 5 years. Any thoughts on who might have produced it?

 Mike


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Chris I have to travel now a little distance,I will be back after dinner, nice looking bottle you posted.From the looks of the shards you provided
 looks like a dead match.


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## Road Dog (May 31, 2010)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Thanks Rory for the information some real nice bottles are posted.Are you a member at that forum or just a watcher reader of it.
> This is one of my favorite shards it is of the window glass made at Wistarburgh again looking at the glass on the flat side it appears as a pale green
> but turn it on its edge and the gall can be seen again with hints of the halo like blue green color.


 Hey Steve, I'm a member over there. They have a bit of everything there. The black glass thread here has the makings of one you keep going back to for all the great info.


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## daltonbottles (May 31, 2010)

"Black Glass" -  What is it and how do we define it ?  As Mike says, this could be a totally different discussion in itself.  But looking at eBay descriptions and some of the comments on other forum posts, the term black glass seems to be confusing to alot of folks.  Some tend to place anything "green" into the category.  But the glass color is only one characteristic of true black glass.  This primarily entails the olive to deep green, amber green, and amber glass colors.  But the real key I think is the color that the glass appears in REFLECTED light, not the actual color of the glass when held to a light source looking through the glass.  Black glass is simply a term used to describe glass that appears very dark or black under reflected light conditions.  A plain old incandescent light source indoors is really all you need.


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## jfcutter (May 31, 2010)

Great thread on black glass!  I don't have much to add to it at this moment except to note that I agree to the definition by _*daltonbottles*_ of what black glass is, i.e., glass that appears essentially black when viewed in reflected light (like on ones bottles shelves in a room, not in the window with the sun behind it).  For example, the darkish green bottles in the image below are primarily not black glass to my eye, with the exception possibly of the small umbrella ink to the lower right.

 I have to admit that I've not addressed the subject of 18th-century American-made black glass bottles (largely spirits & utility bottles) much on my Historic Bottle Website (HBW) since it is a minefield of speculation and very hard to be certain of with very few exceptions.  I essentially "punt" on the subject by starting the website discussion around 1800 - around the time when American bottle making really took off - and by primarily only covering American (and some Canadian) made items.  I largely avoid most foreign bottles since the HBW is long and complicated enough just covering the vast variety of bottles made in this country.  

 Certainly early American glass factories were making bottle which emulated Euro-wares of the period, but that is the problem...they look the same pretty much as noted in this thread.  However, this thread has been educating me a lot on early American vs. European bottles...keep it up!

 Bill


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## jfcutter (May 31, 2010)

I should also add this from _McKearin & Wilson _ regarding black glass (lifted from my HBW):

 Black glass is probably *"...the most important of the green glasses..."  * which _*"...was of so deep a color as to appear black in reflected light and even in direct light when the walls of the bottles were very thick..." * _ according to McKearin & Wilson (1978:9).  

 Bill


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

This jug measuring 11 inches in circumference at the base and standing exactly 12 inches in height was found 75 feet from the Stangers glass works
 during the reconstruction of US.Rte. 322.The top of the bottle has the very German influenced sheared top not usually seen on Dutch and English black glass
 bottles.The color is golden olive amber.The turlington bottle was used strickley for size comparison.I would like to think this bottle was made right there on Stangers property as at one time they owned 5 square miles of land with the glass works,General store and later in 1790 Colonel Hestons Mansion to keep an eye on the glass works.The bottle looks to be from the 1780 to 1800 time period.


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

picture 2


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Picture 3


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Picture 4


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

picture 5


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## Steve/sewell (May 31, 2010)

Last one. The pontil sort of resembles a foreign galaxy.


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## daltonbottles (Jun 2, 2010)

Just a quick heads-up if anyone is looking for the Van Den Bossche black glass book.  Bargain on eBay item #200478867377.  This is usually a $250 book.  Hope this is appropriate here.  Not my auction by the way.


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## earlyglass (Jun 2, 2010)

Dalton,  Thanks.

 Steve, I am not sure what to make about your bottle... it would be good to see it in person. It is quite a large piece of glass! 

 I would really like to see this thread continue. I will be posting more artifacts from glasshouses over the next couple of days, and maybe we can keep the conversation rolling. It is all so very informative. 

 Mike


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## daltonbottles (Jun 2, 2010)

No problem Mike.  I would like to see this thread expand too, maybe get photos of various black glass showing material from all periods between the shaft and globe types on into the later 1870s mold blown black glass.  I've always had a fascination with black glass, but there is surprisingly little information or discussion about it within bottle clubs, on the internet, or even in publication.  I have found that there seems to be a lot of confusion about dating this stuff, when in reality, black glass is one of the easiest forms to put within specific type and date ranges.  I'm constantly watching for certain pieces that I don't have represented in my collection, and some of the ones that you would think were common and simple to acquire can be surprisingly difficult.  At present I'm trying to put together a representative grouping of all the major styles from the beginnings of black glass production circa 1630 to around 1875 when most black glass production appears to cease.  It's really not that daunting a task, as there are relatively few individual "styles" involved, but I suppose it could be a major endeavor if you really tried to include all the "variations" from the norm.

 DB


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## Road Dog (Jun 2, 2010)

This is a real Kool article I posted once before. Thought it was appropriate here in this thread.
 http://www.apva.org/pressroom/press_release.php?pr_id=13


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## Steve/sewell (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks Rory,thats a great article.In 1983 I spent two weeks in Virginia with the final week in the Tidewater area Bush Gardens,Jamestown all the old plantations on the James River.When we were at Carters grove Plantation the rear of their property is the bank of the James river. On a small section a new fort and settlement had been discovered called Wolstenholme Towne.This was was a fortified settlement in the Virginia Colony begun with a population of about 40 settlers of the Virginia Company of London which was located about 7 miles downstream from Jamestown. Named for Sir John Wolstenholme, one of the investors, it was established about 1618 on a plantation named Martin's Hundred. Housing in Wolstenholme Towne consisted of rough cabins of wattle and daub woven on wooden posts thrust into the clay subsoil.

 On March 22, 1622, the Native American Powhatans rose to kill as many English settlers as could be surprised in their homes and fields. From the fall line of the James River to Hampton Roads, they burned and looted settlements, killing an estimated 400 colonists.
 Martin's Hundred, the plantation hardest hit, lost more than 50, perhaps as many as 70. Wolstenholme Towne's death toll was not separated in the death rolls. About 30 miles upriver on the south bank of the James, Sir Thomas Dale's new "citiy" (sic) of Henricus was also wiped out in what has come to be called the Indian Massacre of 1622.

 In the 20th century, separate groups of archaeologists uncovered the sites of both Wolstenholme Towne and Henricus. The former is located on the grounds of Carter's Grove plantation in the Grove Community of southeastern James City County. The findings were chronicled by author and historian Ivor Noel Hume.
 In December 2007, Carter's Grove was acquired from the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation by CNET founder Halsey Minor for $15.3 million. Per the press release the new owner "plans to use the mansion as a private residence and use the site as a center for a thoroughbred horse-breeding program."
 Wolstenholme Towne is now considered one of the many lost towns of Virginia.

 The day we were there it was pouring rain and we didnt know that the archaeologists were working the site.The workers were not there and there was a break in the rain abd my wife and I wanted to see the gardens on the property as they were supposed to be some of the best in the world.
 We were not dissapointed because it was an enormous English garden probably 500 by 500 feet.After finishing walking the garden the sun popped out and we wanted to see the James river up close.There on the right about 150 feet from the banks of the river a full blown archaeological dig was under way.
 The tiered layers of the dig were filled with water as days of rain flooded all of South Eastern Virginia.The entire area was roped off with crime scene safety tape.As we were leaving I spotted on the edge of their tape line of demarcation a piece of glass sticking out.It turned out to be a fully intact English mallet bottle which I took back to the museum house after thinking long and hard as to whether to keep it or not.My conscience wouldnt allow me to keep it.Later that same year a large story with plenty of pictures of the site and the artifacts found was in the National Geographic magazine.


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## Road Dog (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks for the read Steve. Did they give you credit for the find?


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## Road Dog (Jun 6, 2010)

Here is another link of a Black Glass discussion.
  http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,257155.0.html


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## baltbottles (Jun 8, 2010)

Mike after going through all the City Directories here's the yeas Smith Is listed. The bottle is a bit later then most would suspect. 

 Chris

 1829 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, cor. South & Water dw Fayette w of Charles 

 1831 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St; dw St.Paul's st s of Saratoga

 1833-34 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St; dw 48 St.Paul's st s of Saratoga

 1835-36 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 South St

 1837-38 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St. dw Saratoga st near Cortland

 1842 Directory Smith J. L. M. importer of wines, 21 South St.


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## earlyglass (Jun 8, 2010)

Chris, Thanks for doing that research. Yes, the bottle does look much older than that, I would have figured 15 years earlier! Given the length of time they were in business, you would think that there would be quite a few examples out there, however they rarely show up. 

 Were any glasshouses in the Baltimore area producing such wines during the 1830s?? 

 Mike


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## RED Matthews (Jun 18, 2010)

Hello all of you,  And you get a thanks from me also  RED Matthews


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## blade (Jun 27, 2010)

Very interesting thread. I posted this bottle some time ago and was wandering if it was possibly  blown in Wistarburgh ?


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## Steve/sewell (Jun 27, 2010)

Hi Christian,Yes your bottle does look to be being made in the colonial era.Wistarburgh Glassboro,Stiegel and Amelung all had very similar styles
 influenced by the German Glass blowers.The color and style could put it in Wistarburgh as that color green seems to be more towards Wistars factory then
 the others.Does the pontil have a white yellowy substance around the perimeter of it.If so then the bottle would be a very strong candidate as to being made at Wistarburgh.


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## daltonbottles (Jul 6, 2010)

Sniped one of my rarer black glass bottles off eBay this past week.  It's a half-sized longneck Continental mallet that measures only 8.5 inches in height, with the neck making up 5 inches of the total length.  Width at base is only 3.25 inches.  There were a couple of these in the Cosbert Collection, but nothing this short in body or total length.  Haven't decided yet if it's Belgian, German, or French.  The symmetrical string collar and lack of major lip flair leans me away from Dutch, and the color is a much deeper forest green than normally seen on Dutch glass.  The glass is also thicker, more like Belgian and German pieces.  It's free-blown, asymmetrical in cross-section and obviously not blown in a dip mold, so I tend to think it is likely an early cylindrical form made between 1730 and 1760.  You just never know what is going to pop up on eBay.


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## CazDigger (Aug 18, 2010)

I just acquired this large demijon from a local (upstate NY ) estate. It is round, about 20" tall and 16" wide with a string lip and no pontil. Any knowlegable input about its age and location of manufacture would be appreciated. THANKS! Mark


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## CHESHIRE (Jul 18, 2013)

Dear Daltonbottles,

 I have an archaeological bottle in a 1760 context from western Massachusetts        It has a classic blowpipe pontil scar, so it is not English and the body is not French......so I think that it is either Dutch (though it does not have a really long neck typical of 1760 Dutch) or American (German would be a stretch given the provenance).....

 Can you take a look at it.....as Dutch would be very exciting for us in early pioneer western mass......

 My email is the best    frank.e.white@accenture.com

 Tx   Frank


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## cowseatmaize (Jul 18, 2013)

This thread was last posted on almost 3 years ago and I don't think the OP has posted since.
 I think you'd make out better by starting a new thread with a description and some pictures. 
 "Pontils Only" would be a good spot.
 Admin


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## joncornish (Jan 3, 2017)

*Bottle Base Date*



daltonbottles said:


> Here is a good comparative example, English vs. Dutch.  But still just a general rule of thumb.



Happy New Year to everyone.

Wondered if anyone could identify this english black bottle base or at least roughly date it? (please see attachment)? Thanks in advance.

Kind regards

Jon


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 3, 2017)

I don't recognize your bottle base, but I did enjoy reviewing this thread.  As far as age is concerned, I'd guess mid-19th century.  But, that's based on intuition.


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## nhpharm (Jan 11, 2017)

Looks 1880's-1890's to me.  We dig a lot of those English beers in Texas with that nippled base style in that context.


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 11, 2017)

nhpharm said:


> Looks 1880's-1890's to me.  We dig a lot of those English beers in Texas with that nippled base style in that context.



Alright!!  If you dig a lot of them, nhpharm, how about showing us an intact example?  At least two of us are curious.


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## nhpharm (Jan 11, 2017)

Will see if I have some in the garage.  Most of them go back in the hole as I have no market for them and can't keep them-but I bet there is one in the garage somewhere!


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 11, 2017)

This the only such bottle I've found in Florida.  I've always thought of it as American-made.  Rex Wilson (BOTTLES ON THE WESTERN FRONTIER) illustrates a number of "beer bottles, export style" which are close.  These would be for 1870s lager beer.  I'm eager to see your Texas finds, nhpharm, especially any with the raised ring around the mold vent nipple.



​


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## nhpharm (Jan 17, 2017)

I lugged home almost 150 British blackglass bottles from my most recent dig...will take a look and see if any of them have this base.  I think most of the ones I dug this trip are a little too early.  I would say that I believe the bottle you have posted is British.  The 1870's lager beer bottles from the US that I have seen are typically similar in form but are amber and typically have the initials (such as C&I) embossed on the base.


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## obxcomber (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm hoping to identify this partial bottle base. Looks like there are some real black glass connoisseurs posting here, maybe it rings a bell with one of you?


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## nhpharm (Nov 21, 2017)

Where was this found?


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## obxcomber (Nov 21, 2017)

Southern Outer Banks, NC. It's an area known for its shipwrecks.


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## nhpharm (Nov 21, 2017)

It's neat.  I would guess British as there are lots of towns there with the DDES combination of letters, but I could be wrong.  Waddeston, Hoddesdon, etc.  You might post on the British Antique Bottle Forum.


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## obxcomber (Nov 21, 2017)

Thanks for the info. BABF won't allow me to register because of the type of email account I have.


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## TROG (Nov 27, 2017)

Appears to be English from around 1860


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## TROG (Nov 27, 2017)

This bottle looks English and would date 1870 - 1880


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## TROG (Nov 27, 2017)

Harry Pristis said:


> This the only such bottle I've found in Florida.  I've always thought of it as American-made.  Rex Wilson (BOTTLES ON THE WESTERN FRONTIER) illustrates a number of "beer bottles, export style" which are close.  These would be for 1870s lager beer.  I'm eager to see your Texas finds, nhpharm, especially any with the raised ring around the mold vent nipple.
> 
> 
> View attachment 176678​



This bottle looks English and would date 1870 - 1880


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## TROG (Nov 27, 2017)

Harry Pristis said:


> This the only such bottle I've found in Florida.  I've always thought of it as American-made.  Rex Wilson (BOTTLES ON THE WESTERN FRONTIER) illustrates a number of "beer bottles, export style" which are close.  These would be for 1870s lager beer.  I'm eager to see your Texas finds, nhpharm, especially any with the raised ring around the mold vent nipple.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 176678​



This bottle looks English and would date 1870 - 1880


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 27, 2017)

I agree, TROG.  It is, after all, an "export" beer bottle.  Now, if we could just get nhpharm to post images of his British beer/ale bottles.


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## Jim B (May 9, 2020)

New to Black Glass and the truely OLD!
What year would you put this one at?
Was told 1750-1780 has a extremely crude pontil for sure!

Anything else you can tell me about it's making?
Learning 

.


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## Jim B (May 9, 2020)




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## Jim B (May 9, 2020)




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## Jim B (May 9, 2020)




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## Jim B (May 12, 2020)

WOW nobody?
Did my post and pics even come thru?


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## nhpharm (May 12, 2020)

With that level of taper, I'm guessing 1820-1840 or so with respect to age.  Made in a dip mold.


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## Harry Pristis (May 12, 2020)

Nice!  I agree that it's closer to 1800 than to 1700.  These case bottles were made over a long period, and it's easy to mis-diagnose the age.  My estimate is between 1780 and 1830.  (See Van den Bossche page 132, Plate 84.)  Probably made in the Low Countries for the Dutch market.  

If you don't have the book, ANTIQUE GLASS BOTTLES, Their History and Evolution (1500 - 1850),  I have an extra (still in the publisher's wrapping) to sell you.  Check it out on Amazon books.


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## Jim B (May 12, 2020)

@ Harry Pristis 
Looks much like 2nd from left cept the crazy pontil.
Still kinda confused on this one as I think many are.
LOVE to have the book but can't see almost $100 for a book :/
Paid $60 for my Jar price guide thats what I'm mostly into.
I like to switch tween bottles and Jars now and then.


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## Harry Pristis (May 12, 2020)

Jim B said:


> @ Harry Pristis
> Looks much like 2nd from left cept the crazy pontil.
> Still kinda confused on this one as I think many are.
> LOVE to have the book but can't see almost $100 for a book :/
> ...


* 
I do understand your preferences -- I've got a lot of jars myself.
I looked at a few of my case bottles with the disk lip, and I have at least two with blow-pipe ("open") pontil scars.  My examples are broken off nearly flush with the bottle base.  I think your bottle scar represents an error by the gaffer, and that makes it more interesting.
You can own my extra Van den Bossche book for $65.00 plus shipping.  PM me if you are interested.











*


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## Jim B (May 13, 2020)

Jim B said:


> @ Harry Pristis
> Looks much like 2nd from left cept the crazy pontil.
> Still kinda confused on this one as I think many are.
> LOVE to have the book but can't see almost $100 for a book :/
> ...



It stands but square base is all weird and miss shaped....dent in side of bottle...... it's quite crude for sure!


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## Jim B (Jun 3, 2020)

Harry Pristis said:


> If you don't have the book, ANTIQUE GLASS BOTTLES, Their History and Evolution (1500 - 1850),  I have an extra (still in the publisher's wrapping) to sell you.  Check it out on Amazon books.



I might just take you up on that if thats the one for $65.
Message me cuz I dunno how to do it here.
Forgive my slowness..... "Round To It List" loudly calls with all this pandemic down time.


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