# New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now?



## subsoil (Dec 21, 2006)

I just came across this and I am floored: [:'(]

 http://www.wmur.com/news/10582085/detail.html

 Calling all New Hampshire diggers: What do we do? This has been a longtime fear of mine that the state will eventually seriously restrict our hobby and make it nearly impossible to keep artifacts from these sites.  And now that the media is picking up on it I fear it only accelerates the process. 

 /Scared now


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## bottlediger (Dec 21, 2006)

OMG [][][][][][][][][][]


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## richf (Dec 21, 2006)

Just another way our government is working to restrict and control almost everything. And, they probably don't care one bit about the bottles! 
 My advice is dig it now, while you still can. That statement about digging in a city park is ridiculous ... he's comparing apples to oranges. They would be much better off concentrating on what seems to be a rather serious homelessness problem.
 Rich


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## baltbottles (Dec 21, 2006)

Load of rubbish I say. For one your not supposed to dig on state land. And 2 the "archeologist " they quoted in the article said and I quote " That value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context, he said." This guy is not a very good archeologist because in general large dumps have no true context they are too mixed up to ever be worth digging archeologically. Iâ€™ve had more then one Professional archeologist tell me this. Small dumping sites perhaps those from a single house can provide some archeological value and any small dumping deposits that occurred over a very short period of time could also provide valuable information. So basically all this article says is that they may be cracking down on people digging on state lands. So just dig on private land with permission and you will not have any problems.

 Chris


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## swizzle (Dec 21, 2006)

I think we need to get a couple of brilliant minds in on this in our defense. Point out the fact that while our friends are digging out old trash, the drunk homeless families are pissing in the river. What's the bigger problem? I'd say the homeless living along the river are by far the worse of their problems. A 50 foot hole in the side of a river isn't going to change its course. A river is going to go where it wants to. That 50 foot wide hole is a drop in the bucket. Compare that to what our states factories are doing to our waterways. Here in the adirondacks we have factories that are knowingly poisoning our rivers. They are allowed to do so because they can afford a permit every year that says its ok. The clean up is far to costly and why worry about it when you can just renew your permit. The permit system was installed years ago to provide a delay until newer technologies would allow a safer and cleaner means of running a bussiness. We can't eat anymore then 3 pounds of fish a month due to the mercury in their system. There is one company that's dumping 10's of thousands of pounds of waste into hudson every day. By the time the hudson gets to the ocean its almost purely poison. Now some archiologist fresh out of school is saying a 50 foot hole and a medicine bottle that can sell for as much as a $1,000 on ebay is destroying the river. That to me just sounds ignorant. Swizzle


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## frank (Dec 21, 2006)

I think digging on state property is a bad thing did the digger fill there holes up if they didnt that what you get!!! I dig on privite property and dont have any problems i back fill my holes in  ps sad to say they are destroying the river banks when you cut the roots out of a 150 yearold  tree it weakens and  the tree goes down and erodes the river bank and the animals lose there home too!!!


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 21, 2006)

The next time I find a good early dump I'm not going to dig a single bottle. I'll get a better price if I leave them in the ground. I can see it now on ebay. Small farm dump for sale, Starting bid 10 million dollars[] Here's an idea. Let the Homeless dig there so they can raise money to become non-homeless.LMAO. Besdies, are you really destroying the river bank. it's not a river bank it's a dump. The river bank begins where the dump leaves off. Actually the diggers are restorring the river bank to its oringinal course!!!


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## bottlediger (Dec 21, 2006)

"Now some archiologist fresh out of school is saying a 50 foot hole and a medicine bottle that can sell for as much as a $1,000 on ebay is destroying the river. That to me just sounds ignorant." Swizzle

 Its not ignorance its pure jelousy, I have an archeology major along with a enviromental major, most of the poisons originaly from the dump as leached into the water ways LONG ago and the little that remains that goes into the river is VERY slim compaired to what factorys put in!


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## swizzle (Dec 21, 2006)

Do you feel that this site is of historical significance? I can see the home of a famous person or artifacts that date back to the late 1700's and back, but to me 1800's seems kind of new for archeologist to be really worried about. Am I wrong in thinking this? Swizzle


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## capsoda (Dec 21, 2006)

We are the state, not a few politicians and do gooders. US, the diggers, collectors, buyers and sellers and the Wally world greeter dude too.

 This guy is another ignorant busy body who is going to save us from ourselves even if it kills us all. It is a hobby and I used to dig with an archy type who was a bottle collector and we never destroyed any history of any kind. The homeless problem I don,t really give a crap about because most of them like where they are.

*AND, AND, *I will be right up because I am not getting rich down here digging any $1000 meds so I will come up there and help you folks get rid of all the ones you have. [sm=rolleyes.gif] What a $h!t head.......


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## towhead (Dec 21, 2006)

Ahhhh Warren....you are soooo refreshing!! []


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## bottlecol345 (Dec 21, 2006)

I think its stupid the archaeologists think the bottles would be more valuable sat in the ground where no one could even tell what they were. Archeaologists dig stuff up all the time, ancient cities to old building sites. How could they say that rare artifacts could be more valuable in the ground than actually being able to identify them?? Hopefully this whole idea is just rubbish. If it isnt, hopefully other states wont develop simular bans


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## Mike O (Dec 21, 2006)




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## Mike O (Dec 21, 2006)

I have to apologize for my langue in my last post! I just pisses me off that people cant mind there own business and leave us diggers alone. If I offended anyone with my quick reaction I truly am sorry to you! I should have not used two 2 words.  Mike O


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## bottlediger (Dec 21, 2006)

Mike mike mike, you appologise to easy. She deserves a big FU! And Swizzle, Yes I do feel this site and all other  bottle digging sites have an are of historical Significance. BUT historical significance to US the bottle digger. We love what we do, we take pride in it and IF IT WASNT FOR US, most of the historical bottles that our out there would not be right now because the areas most of them came from are now DEVELOPED and destoryed. Arceologists cant do ANYTHING without money. They have to get their funding form somewhere wither from the state, gov. or private interests. No one wants to hand over an Arch. Money to dig up some 1800's bottles. Why because that time frame of history is so well documented its not even funny. Everyone on here knows that. So when they cant get money they beotch about stupid Shibby like us bottle diggers to get their name out there to promote themselfs or just out of pure jelousey to stop the people that are really doing something and preserving history.


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## swizzle (Dec 21, 2006)

I don't blame you for being mad Mike O. Maybe you can post some pics of those $1,000 meds. you've been digging out of that 50 foot hole. I'd like to see some pics of the dump in question. Maybe you can give us a little history lesson of the area your digging as well. 
 Bottlediger, I thank you for your opinion. Its always nice to get a fresh perspective. Swizzle


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## digger mcdirt (Dec 21, 2006)

That is terrible! I know some of the guys who have dug there and have seen the site it is a grown up river bank! There is no way that digging there could hurt anyone or anything. As far as the history it is a huge City dump with burn layers etc. The guys who dig it re-fill their holes and do not leave huge holes in the ground (I never saw anything like that  when I was through there). It sounds like to me another case of a jerk being a jerk. They did the same thing at Memphis years ago on the Mississippi and to this day digging is still messed up. It only takes one to really mess up a spot. I see more and more sites becoming off limits today because of this.I hope this passes for all my NH friends so they can get back to digging like they do.


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## earlyglass (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, it was only a matter of time before officials took notice. 

 I'll tell ya, that dump looked like swiss cheese when I was digging there as a kid over 25 years ago. For some reason, people continue to go back to that place, and for what?? I have not seen one pontilled piece pulled from the 1/2 mile dump! And everything is sick glass. It is right in the center of the city with highways an on-lookers everywhere. I could see 4 or 5 people digging as I traveled over the bridge last week. I understand that the diggers are not harming anyone, but there is no way in hell that any holes are being filled. Like I said, it looks like a mine field! I can also imagine that the river will fill those ravines and holes and cause additional erosion, but that is not my call. 

 Anyways, I am not taking any sides here, but I could certainly locate a dozen sites that are more productive than this one, away from the public and without the hassles of Mr. Jack-off Archeologist.  Don't waste your time.


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## Mike O (Dec 21, 2006)

I am Happy that I don't live in NH. I will bet now the do gooders will take some tax dollers  and do a archaeolol dig To find out what the city drank in 1900 so Maybe I could offer my tumbling services to clean up all the sick bottles to like new condition. And since all the bottles are worth thousand of dollers I should charge at least $750.00 each to tumble them!   Hey Earlyglass The holes may not be filled to the top and level but I would say that they are at least 80% back filled


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## earlyglass (Dec 21, 2006)

Mike, you know I am not pointing any fingers, but the place has been a mess for years, long before you or any of the guys on this site were going there. I have spoken to guys that have dug that place for longer than we have been alive... and very few great bottles have been found. I'm not trying to spoil the fun, it just seems like a waste of time to me. This could hurt your tumbling business though! []

 About the state regulations... it seems a bit extreme to me. But to my point... stay out of the radar.

 Mike


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## Mike O (Dec 21, 2006)

That I will Mike, That I will!


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## woody (Dec 21, 2006)

The key to the article is "state owned land".

 That doesn't mean you can't dig for bottles on private property with permission.

 I'm not too concerned with it being enforced.


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## deepwoods (Dec 21, 2006)

Good point, Woody. I'll never forget a program I saw a while back about archeologists exploring a bronze age shipwreck; one of the archeologists (rather pompously) said "to us a finding the remnants of a camp fire is just as important as finding gold coins"; then one of the divers found an amber necklace and everyone on the boat started dancing a mazurka.


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## capsoda (Dec 21, 2006)

It got so bad in Pensacola,FL 10-15 years back that they actually had a meeting on the court house steps. It was low life slimey theiving bottle diggers against HOLYER THAN THOU arcys from the university. There were two well known local arcys with the bottle diggers but nothing really every came of it. Oh except the head of the arcy department at the university is now a resident of the state for stealing all this stuff she was saving from the diggers and selling it on ebay. [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif] No kiddin it is the truth.

 I'm am a proponent of flying under the radar and not being noticed though.  Crap, I must be getting soft as I get older.[]


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## madpaddla (Dec 21, 2006)

UNREAL !!  Ok I can see how these bottles/dig sites  are valuable to the environment, community, etc.  But on the other side....if they are so valuable...then why aren't these scholars digging em up??  I am doing something different and will be giving many of the local bottles...that wouldnt sell on ebay for much anyway to the local historical societies.  That might be an idea for some other diggers.  BUT to stop diggers from digging b/c it is of historical importance....THAN DIG IT !  And if they aren't digging it than its can't be that important.  
  Ben
 I will add on the state property though.  So that would include...hmm most railroad tracks and vacinity, around old abandon buildings, etc????  I challenge that idea a bit.  Sometimes the best thing coming out of these places is the bottles.  And the local historical societies are proud to recieve the extras.  So in those cases I don't see the harm.  Correct me if I'm wrong....understood that decimating an area by a greedy bottle digger is not right and egregious.


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## ConchDigger (Dec 21, 2006)

Good for the cop who let them dig. He or she obviously thought allowing people to dig who were having fun and not hurting anyone was more important than enforcing some obscure law for the sake of â€œfollowing the rulesâ€. Crap on the other guys who â€œdigâ€ being controlling. Here are some different Florida State Statute excerpts pertaining to historic resources and lands:

 "Historic property" or "historic resource" meansâ€¦These properties or resources may include, but are not limited to, monuments, memorials, Indian habitations, ceremonial sites, abandoned settlements, sunken or abandoned ships, engineering works, treasure trove, artifacts, or other objects with intrinsic historical or archaeological value[/b], or any part thereof, relating to the history, government, and culture of the state.â€[/b]
  [/b]
 â€œIt is further declared to be the public policy of the state that all treasure trove, artifacts, and such objects having intrinsic or historical and archaeological value[/b] which have been abandoned on state-owned lands or state-owned sovereignty submerged lands shall belong to the state with the title thereto vested in the Division of Historical Resources of the Department of State for the purposes of administration and protection.â€

 â€œAny person who by means of excavation[/b] either conducts archaeological field investigations on, or removes[/b] or attempts to remove, or defaces, destroys, or otherwise alters any archaeological site or specimen located upon, any land owned or controlled by the state or within the boundaries of a designated state archaeological landmark or landmark zone[/b], except in the course of activities pursued under the authority of a permit or under procedures relating to accredited institutions granted by the division, commits a felony of the third degree.â€


 So, just what are we talking about there? Are old bottles historically significant just due to their age? If so, what is the age cut-off? What is historically significant? Iâ€™m sure if I called up the people in Tallahassee and said, â€œHey, do you want the five old embossed laxative bottles I found in the Smithâ€™s outhouse hole in Key West? Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s historically significant that someone in the family around the turn of the century was constipated all the timeâ€ Theyâ€™d hang up on me Iâ€™m sure. We all know and love that there is history in these old bottles, but collecting the trash of by-gone eras and preserving artifacts of historically significant events and places and famous people is different. If I found the engraved chamber pot of Andrew Jackson I would donate it! Plus, there are already many large bottle collections held by the state and U.S. government.

 For now, Iâ€™ll keep my digging low-key, fill in my holes, and stick to private land. I do not want it to become the object of debate in a local public forum. That is how new laws are made and current laws become more restrictive or the target of enforcement! 
 Happy digging!

 Brenda


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## Mainepontil (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm glad to see everyone agreeing on this one.  It does not matter if you trespass or get permission, fill your holes or leave a mess.  They don't care about diggers or treasure hunters, they want it all to themselves or left in the ground?  When we dig bottles we ARE PRESERVING them for future generations.  When archaeologist dig bottles they are KEEPING THEM LOCKED up in a lab forever.  SCREW THEM, they can't have it all.

 There are a few more interesting posts about this same topic on bottledigger.net.


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## woody (Dec 21, 2006)

That's why New Hampshires' state motto is "Dig Free or Die".[]


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## subsoil (Dec 21, 2006)

Good comments made by all, I'm glad this is a top issue with the community here, it affects everyone regardless of where you're from and if you dig or not.

 My issue with the sudden attention to this is that diggers are labeled as some sort of new "treasure hunter" that wrecks havoc on the earth for "no good reason". Suddenly these diggers who are noticed in a popular dump next to the tons of other craters left by diggers from the 70s and up must be stopped?

 What about the many of us who have donated bottles to historical societies and lecture FREE information about bottles so people are aware of the significance of early glass? If the Arcs had it their way, the glass would stay buried forever for nobody to learn or care about, and they claim that's more valuable!? If anything, one would think more value lies in getting the glass out of its grave and on forums like this so it can be seen, discussed, and possibly obtained.

 LOL Zane's right on! I've dug the now-banned site before and one of the popular camps had some fellas drinking Keystone from a 30 pak,  they showed us bottles they had found cleaning up the camp and asked us if they were valuable - plain meds. I said "not really, but you all should get down there and dig!"

 I never seem to have problems with local police. I've dug on another dump that was dug back in the 60s and 70s when it wasn't a big deal for anyone to be in the woods digging, it is registered as federal property, and the town police said no problems at all. But when the "officials" show up, be prepared to turn over your finds (or bury them fast) and get out for that day!

 I am disgusted with the local media for simply quoting what the "officials" say, not even a single quote from a digger to get a different side of the story. What happened to investigative reporting?  I hope no one was digging when the circus showed up to save the day, I heard the EPA, Army Corp, News teams, state and local police all showed up! If anyone was at the camps they must have sh@t bricks!

 I feel the conclusion is we will be continually forced to pursue our hobby outside of the radar and keep the lowest possible profile about what we do to avoid this kind of negative attention, despite the fact that previous generations have dug the same sites without much trouble.

 Original article from the Manchester Express:
http://shantec.resonancehosting.com/express_12_21_06.pdf


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## bttlmark (Dec 21, 2006)

So it seems that some one was riding over the bridge & saw digging,,stuck their nose in and started trouble. The bottles there are landfill...The winos are probably littering the place with plenty of empty Qts.. He said a Thousand dollars each and then it began.
 Greedy Govt Archeologists,,,always worried that somebody is getting something that they are not


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## bottlediger (Dec 21, 2006)

I just read the new artical, THERE IS A FREAKING OVER PASS (BRIDGE) Built right ontop of the freaking dump. That arch is pissed that bottlediggers disturbed the ground. Think of how much disturbance was caused when the bridge was built. But no one cared then. WTF


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## Caretaker maine (Dec 21, 2006)

Saw the story on the Portland news tonite, knew just what they were talking about, I say join a historic society and get them involved, I have donated some of the stuff I have dug to the local one here, they told me they knew nothing of the place in town, they were a couple of local milks with the farms, this just puts a bad taste in my mouth, that's why I moved out of NH, was there for 25 years and I saw the Mass. trasplants moving up and trying to change things, I guess they will have to change their name to northern Mass, this is very bad and it's not going to go away, the guys who dug there have save some great history, they didn't tar over it , they saved it, shame on the archy


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## bottlediger (Dec 21, 2006)

words from a smart man


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## capsoda (Dec 21, 2006)

If I were one of you NH diggers/collectors I would damn sure get my side heard. I would gather info to arm myself against the nutty professor and the state, building the overpass/failing to stop the building of the overpass on such historic finds, and the fact that a 1000 buck bottle of any kind is a once in a lifetime find and I would get a group together and go after them just like they are doing you. The papers will print your side to if presented right and I have met many of you so I know the intellegence, love for the hobby and ability are there. Try the local politicians who are outdoor types and others who know what bottle digging/collecting is all about.

 Then lock and load and God save the the target in your sights....Just my thoughts. It will only snow ball if you don't.  

 And how come when they do it it is significant, when a construstion crew does it its progress but when we do it for love of the glass we are theives????


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## ConchDigger (Dec 21, 2006)

Our city ordinance is very strange. It quotes the state statute alot, but when it came right down to it this was the meat and potatoes: 
 -Any major disturbances (12" or more) made while working under a permit (building permit, etc.) on private property needed to be signed off on by the "city archaeologist" (whoever that is). It doesn't say anywhere that you need a permit just to dig. 
 -Any artifacts found on private property belong to the property owner and he doesn't have to turn them over to anyone. 
 -Any artifacts over 50 years old are protected by section blah, blah, blah, which doesn't even exist anymore.
 -Any artifacts found while probing, metal detecting, etc. on city owned land are required to be "registered" with the city historic district office within one business day. Any "disturbances" must be monitored by the city archeaologist.
 Okay, by now I was really confused. So, I can dig without a permit as long as I'm digging for no reason other than to dig. If I find anything, the land owner gets first dibs. If it's over 50 years old it's protected by an ordinance that no longer exists. If I want to dig on city land, I have to be monitored by the city archaeologist and register any artifacts with an office that no one's ever heard of.

 Written in true Key West style[] Please, don't anyone call the city and point these things out to them!!!!!!!


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## baltbottles (Dec 22, 2006)

Ok Archaeologists like to leave things in the ground unless the site is going to be impacted and destroyed. And even then the site only gets dug if its on government owned land or the project has government funds involved. So most privately funded projects have no archeology done. The main reason they don't dig sites that are not going to be impacted by development is because If they leave it in the ground it gives them Job security. If they dig up all the sites then we will have no need for archaeologists. So they all will be out of a job.  Oh and Capsoda digging a $1000 bottle isn't a once in a life time thing. I probably find something worth that every few months at least. Theres alot of good stuff in the ground you just need to do the research to find it.

 Chris


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## kastoo (Dec 22, 2006)

SUCKS!  Well, shoot...if they will let you dig with a permit then at least you can still dig.  I think a permit is worth it IF it is affordable and a permit will keep only interested people digging...not just every Tom, Dick and Harry.  HOWEVER, a total ban would be bad....I've have heard of diggers paying the city rent for one day to escavate lots....


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## southern Maine diver (Dec 22, 2006)

It never rains underwater... and the bastards can't see you diggin a hole neither!!!![]

 Wayne


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## bikegoon (Dec 22, 2006)

I must agree with Warren, you got to strike back on them.!


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## PhilaBottles (Dec 22, 2006)

who here has an archaeology degree? LMAO I love how some of us turn into professionals. I LOVE IT. [sm=lol.gif]

 Those guys and gals wont dig up your stuff. Its not the end of the world. Archaeologists milked Geo. Washingtons trash pit behind his house in Mt. Vernon for 4 years. THE SPOT WAS 10' x 10' !

 Old trash dumps will get claimed by the state as long as they are on state land. They will never be dug. It will make it harder for you to make a clean getaway, but it will up the prices for dealers and the poor collectors.


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## Mainepontil (Dec 22, 2006)

I wrote a letter to the reporter...Here it is and then his response.
 ___________________________________________
 Eric,
 As an avid bottle digger (with a college degree in Archaeology) I find your news story extremely one sided.  That site along the river has been pounded by diggers since the early 60's, why is it big news now?  

 Most bottle diggers are good citizens who care about private property and historical context.  I really think you should follow up with a story about bottle diggers and their side of historic preservation.


 _______________________________________


 The story is one sided, largely because I couldn't find a bottle digger 
 from this area that wanted to speak on the record. However, the facts 
 still stand. It is illegal, according to the letter of the law, though 
 what the spirit of the enquiry is I have yet to determine. As far as 
 preservation of history, I stand on the fence about that. I have a 
 bachelors in Anthropology and a masters in Heritage Studies which 
 focuses largely on material culture. I worked for several years as an 
 archeologist and saw the wanton destruction that even the most well 
 intentioned avocational digger could wreak on a site.

 Given all that, if you can connect me with a digger in the area willing 
 to go on record I would love to talk with them and air their side of the 
 story, not only to be journalistically fair but in the spirit of debate 
 as well.

 As for why it's news now is simple. We were told about it and we felt 
 readers would be interested in it. Much of the news covered is not 
 fresh, but redicovered, kind of like an old bottle.

 I do appreciate you taking the time to get back to me and air your 
 opinion. If more readers did so all of journalism would be better for it.

 Best wishes for the holiday and the New Year.

 I look forward to your reply

 Eric Baxter

 __________________________________________________

 His email address is  ebaxter@manchexpress.com   I think more people should write to him and express their opinions.   I'm posting this on every bottle forum I can find. 

 Joel


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## PhilaBottles (Dec 22, 2006)

sounds like someone has aids. but on the other hand, his rubuttle did sound good.


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## Mainepontil (Dec 22, 2006)

> ORIGINAL: PhilaBottles
> 
> sounds like someone has aids. but on the other hand, his rubuttle did sound good.


 
 ????  I don't know what that's all about but his REBUTTAL is really just as lame as his one sided story.


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## frank (Dec 22, 2006)

I sat figured out the archies want too make some money of the deal too after seeing what they could get of ebay  for them?????? It all about the greenbacks!!!!


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## capsoda (Dec 22, 2006)

Well there is your in. Go get the bA$*^%&s. Let the public know that we are not digging sites of archaeologicly important sites.

 Hey Chris, if I lived in Baltimore, Boston, New York, I would say that with my research abiltiies and digging experance I probably could dig quite a few 1000 buck bottles in a year but I live in an area where the town was super small but the military presence was large until the late 1870s. There were a few timber towns if you can call them towns and a few scatered settelments that didn't last long enough to make a differance. We have our big buk bottles such as the only hutch in the world with the Pepsi script but most everything else was imported and unembossed. Lots of onions were found along with demis and meds back when but not these days so it is sodas or nothing and an occasional goody. I think most diggers would like to live where the bottles were actually made in abundance like you northerns folk but we dont so 1000 buk bottle is a once in a life time fimd to many of us who are not as lucky as you.


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## Caretaker maine (Dec 22, 2006)

if they pass a law of no digging, then this summer, I'm going to have every 5 year at Hampton Beach arrested for digging holes to make a castle. these idiots better think before they pass these laws , cause there are a lot of use ready to push them to inforcement, when they get 100 calls in one day, this is so moronic, you pay taxes on state land, that means it's our land, period


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 22, 2006)

Seems to me he could get plenty to print right from this thread. Then again, it might not fit the PC Agenda.


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## PhilaBottles (Dec 22, 2006)

i think he blew you out of the water from a non-bottle digger point of view. the general public does not know or comprehend what we do. whatever he writes will be what shapes the readers minds. he simply took your letter, ccrumpled it up, ate it, pooped it out, and blew you off. 

 but us bottle diggers see it a whole diff way. we see him as an idiot, and im with you. I just think if this went to the public/non diggers...he would have the upper hand. 

 so tare him apart. 



 quick story...theres a river in Slovania. all kinds of crzy stuff is found from divers. The archaeologists want to keep it all. The guy who wrote the article went to a divers house...the author described dusty cases. see what im gettin at? 

 if you think ur gonna be able to shut this guy up...go for it. but otherwise, it will just go away.


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## digger mcdirt (Dec 22, 2006)

I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to go to the newspaper and say I am the one who has been digging there. I mean if the newspaper wants another side to the story good luck. Sounds like the state has the Ace in this case. I would not go and say I was the one who had been digging it up there. They have already made it know from their point it is illegal and who knows what kind of charges they would try and bring against the ones who said "Hey we have been mining the Site". I saw the state smoke a man who was bottle digging years ago they even brought charges against him about changing the flow of water etc etc. I serve in City Gov. and there are State and Federal laws against changing the flow of water . We run into it all the time a City can even be fined. No I would not dare go and do a newspaper interview if I was the one digging there.
 I think it will blow over in time and within a few years or year it can be dug again under the radar if someone wanted to.I hate it for the ones digging there. But all it takes sometimes is one loud mouth to ruin a place. I dig solo and for a reason.I have learned throught the years 30 + years of digging the best policy is out of sight out of mind unless you are on property with written permission. 
 I hope if the ones who were digging there is reading all this they think long and hard before letting the newspaper talk them into another side of the story. That is admission and can be used against them planning on how far the state wants to go. I say it will all die down after a while the Police will Hawk it for a while and burn someone up if they catch them. Just my thoughts on it.


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## capsoda (Dec 22, 2006)

I agree, Never admit you were there but it couldn't hurt to let people know we are not treasure hunting theives like that stupid schmuck says. We don't go out and dig up grave yards and burial sites  and destroying bottles by the thousands just so we can get another grant or for progress. We dig bottles to keep progress from destroying them. 
 I have sold, traded and bartered many bottles but it was because I had doubles or my collection was changing or I just didn't collect the type but I am sure not a treasure hunter or thief.


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## digger mcdirt (Dec 22, 2006)

Yes I hate a one sided story. But I do think as bad as I hate to admit it the state does hold the Ace in this Case. I think the State could care less about the site but the loud mouth has opened a can of worms. And when it comes down to right vs wrong state will win in this case. I served 15 years as a Police Officer and Investigator and have served 12 years in City Gov. Destruction of state property is serious it is not like private property. Two different things we must keep in mind. State property is public property but not when it comes to destruction two different things. On pvt property you are charged with tresspassing and in some cases destruction. State is much more involved there are laws that most of us do not even know are on the books in cases like this (ALSO SOME FEDERAL LAWS THEY CAN BRING UP). Tennessee has some bad fine print laws on State Property and that includes the river banks. I have seen what they can do 1st hand if they push. Best thing I say is out of sight out of mind let it die down and go away. Time will allow it to be forgotten. We had the same thing happen here years ago and today you can hunt the site if you want to fly low below the Radar but for many years the Police watched it like a Hawk. Back then the more people said the more the pot got stirred and the worse it got. The local bottle club even took out a ad but that just made it worse. I agree the other side needs to be presented but man I would not tell anyone I was the one in there digging. I would not want to be the Fall Guy they need.


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## Mainepontil (Dec 22, 2006)

The point of the letter was not to one up him or see if he can slam me.  I was simply writing to bitch about his one sided story.   Most of what he wrote was jiberish blah, blah, blahhhh.   By no means would I want to talk to him if I were digging there, that would be suicide.    I've never seen the site but I do know of a few people that have dug there.  They are good people and I know they do not deserve to be labeled as criminals.    It's too bad this ignorant reporter chose to write such a one sided story.  He must be a newbie.

 Joel


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 22, 2006)

The real question is....Can you Desicrate a dump? The land has already been destroyed when they started dumping there. That would be like saying when you tear down a dilapidated house you are destroying it. Are you destroying or actually cleaning it up?


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## bttlmark (Dec 22, 2006)

His letter explains why the story went from the homeless to bottle diggers. From his prior education he knew the digging story would shine brighter and hopefully cause some controversy,he is likely the person who notified the Arch. and he will feed off all comers to be more succesful. It will go away and in a few years it will again be dug.


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## digger mcdirt (Dec 22, 2006)

I totally agree with all. I say they will do an investigation bring in the feds (which they have now done with the EPA)  post it and dare someone to come in there for a while. The poor fool who gets caught will be the one to pay the price. I wouldn't be caught near it. I agree with Maine Pontil I don't like the 1 sided slam dunk they did. But the Ace here is state and illegal just makes a bad combo. I agree it will be dug again just let it sit awhile and grow up then under the radar digs will happen. I know some of the guys who live up in that area and they are smart they will do what we did in the 80's let it go for as long as it takes. The state guy was a jerk everyone agrees and we all know what we do and why we do it most are like me not for the money but for the love of history and the thrill of pulling a 100+ year old piece out of the earth. I am proud of our hobby and what we do.


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 22, 2006)

How about they prosecute the entity who dumped there in the first place.


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## adshepard (Dec 22, 2006)

The situation is familiar to most of us that scuba dive for bottles and artifacts.  The state and the feds frown on divers taking things from "historical" wrecks.  The archaeologists bemoan the retrieval of artifacts on wrecks they'll never visit.  They feel any "antiquity" is their property and would let it languish on the bottom forever rather than see the light of day by the hand of a recreational scuba diver.  This goes for even the most common objects that they already have recovered time and time again.  I've met with Connecticut's State Archaeologist and he has a holier than thou attitude when it comes to "old" stuff.

 Best policy is to not advertise what you're doing and where you're doing it.  Lay low on this site for a bit too.

 Of course even better would be to dig only on land you have permission to dig.


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## Genno62 (Dec 23, 2006)

Hey guys bottom line is!!!!!!!!! I say Let us diggers deal with the glass and pottery! The Arceologist deal with the BONES!!!!LOL!~


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## druggistnut (Dec 23, 2006)

I wrote to Eric Baxter of the Manchester Express, requesting that he put my submission in his paper, as a guest writer. The letter is below.
 I say that we cannot gripe, complain or bitch unless we offer a possible solution. Don't you get tired of hearing people complain, and then not get involved, or take a stand? Our government officials recognize a well-organized, concerted effort by citizens and respect that voice. We need to address this issue as individuals and as part of a collective.
 Bill
 _________________________


 Mr. Baxter,[/align]I am the president of the Flint, Michigan Antique Bottle/Collectible Club. This club is a long standing affiliate  of the Federation of Historical Bottle Collectors.  Please read the code of ethics the Federation endorses and stands behind. www.fohbc.com   [/align]I have been digging/diving for/collecting, buying and selling bottles for over 30 years. My words are not endorsed or supported in any official manner by the FOHBC or the Flint Antique Bottle/Collectible Club.[/align] [/align]This letter is in reference to the 1800's Manchester dump controversy, currently being investigated and written about by The Manchester Express. The property and digging in dispute bring to light many issues, of which I shall only touch upon a few. If you want to read a large amount of blog/posted entries regarding this issue (by diggers), let me know. Keep in mind, many of us (diggers/collectors) also are degreed professionals. Most of us conduct our digging in an ethical, responsible manner. That does not mean that I feel the folks who have dug there in Manchester for the past 40 years plus are not ethical, nor irresponsible.[/align] [/align]We are, first of all, referring to a VAST pile of TRASH. This is not a small dump behind a historically significant piece of property or building. The contents of said trash heap were put there because no one wanted them. This trash came from homes, businesses and the very government that the outraged state archeologist works for. The items coming from the ground include chunks of metal, glass, bricks, rocks and anything else that wasn't able to decompose over the past 100 years. Many of these items support the homeless when sold for scrap metal or to collectors. These items support one of the largest hobbies in this country (bottle collecting).  They are also, more importantly, being exposed to the light of day and the inquisitive minds of the public. [/align] [/align]Please, I implore you, show me evidence of one, just ONE, huge 1880's era city dump, that ANY State allowed large sums of taxpayer money to be squandered on, in an "archeological dig."  This is not a colonial American, civil war era or by any stretch of the imagination, remotely financially feasible site for any taxpayer sponsored dig. This is a site that is left alone by the state, as they don't want to expend money removing it.[/align] [/align]I would suggest that the state archeologist truly represent the interests and pocketbook of the vast majority of the state constituents (who could give a rip about the issue) and use his time in a more constructive manner.  Many of us in the bottle hobby have devoted countless hours (at no expense to anyone, except ourselves) giving talks on bottle making, placing displays in public libraries and historical societies and making donations of many of our dug items to said historical societies. What we see from many archeologists (I personally know four) that we befriend, is a propensity for a private "hoard" of historical items, in their own homes. These items are not on display, for the taxpaying public to see and learn from. They are being "guarded" by the self-appointed _looters _(emphasis by this writer) of the public "property."[/align]Where was this man when the freeway overpass was allowed to be constructed over and through this important historical site?[/align] [/align]I say, place an informal poll in your paper and let the people speak. Are they more concerned about the ramifications of the homeless people along the river, the "looting" of the historically questionable trash pile (as proscribed by the archeologist), the untold amounts of carcinogenic waste being "legally" dumped in the river, or the arrogance of one public servant, professing to speak for each of them? Let the voice of the citizens and reason control this debate, as our founding fathers advocated. Our ancestors came here to escape the grasp of an unpeopled government. Don't continue to allow it to occur today.[/align]Respectfully submitted,[/align]William (Bill) Heatley[/align]Otisville, Michigan[/align]


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## TROG (Dec 23, 2006)

Very well said Bill,

 And now for this ,

Archaeology is actually as much about destruction as preservation? A site has to be destroyed in order for it to be excavated.


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

> I wrong in thinking this?


 
  Archeologists are concerned with interpreting human behavior over time... they bring a unique perspective to this endeavor, even to short spans of time and even where massive amounts of other data are available, such as written records...

  While there are bad apples in every basket, I believe most archeologists pursue their profession with honest integrity and a desire to improve the human condition...

  Ron


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 23, 2006)

I bet that guy, who wrote the article, is wonderring how and why a guy from Mich. heard about his little old newspaper article. Famous or infamous?


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## earlyglass (Dec 23, 2006)

Bill,

 Thank you very much for your letter of strength supporting the hobby. This is certainly what we need to demonstrate unity and our position. To be honest, I am not much of a digger, but I am a collector and a supporter of responsible diggers. If you need any "local" assistance, I am from the Manchester area. Please let me know how I may be able to help you.

 Mike


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## Caretaker maine (Dec 23, 2006)

I say we get a massive digging party there, 500 strong, diggging, when ask what we are doing, we can say we are cleaning up a waiste site the gov let go and is now leaching into our water systems and killing our offspring, and perserving history, we can give all that is found to the local historic societies , so all can see the history and not keep in some cellar of a museum, where only high class archies and there money friends can view it, like I said many times, we pay taxes, this is our land, this is our trash to restore, what they don't like is we have fun in what we do , guys Have a Merry Christmas steve


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## bikegoon (Dec 23, 2006)

"As for why it's news now is simple. We were told about it and we felt  
* readers would be interested in it*. Much of the news covered is not  
  fresh, but redicovered, kind of like an old bottle". 

 The above qoute from the original guy, speaks volumes to me, he was looking for trouble and found it.
 He found a large family of diggers that love what they do, and really care for the enviroment. I really hope he has strong shoulders because he will not hear the end of this for some time.

 Bill, Great letter you wrote!


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Ben...

  There is an argument among the archeological community that sites discovered thru testing to be highly significant should be left alone, as long as they are not under imminent threat of destruction... The theory is that, since there's not enough money to dig all important sites anyway, leave those that aren't threatened until there is enough money to excavate, and when reserach designs and technological advances have progressed such that more and better information could be extracted...

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Archeology isn't concerned with the "rich & famous"... It is concerned with the broad strokes of human behavior as it exists and changes thru time... This means the behavior of average people doing typical things...creating patterns of behavior that can be identified and compared/contrasted to other sets of human behaviors in other times and other settings...

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

> who here has an archaeology degree?


 
  I do... What's your point?

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

I think you're being very unfair, Joel... His reply sounded honest and sincere to me...

  Ron


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## Gunsmoke47 (Dec 23, 2006)

I was kinda wonderin what took you so long to chime in Mr. Swede. [][]


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Archeologists deal with all kinds of artifacts, termed "material culture"... Physical Anthropologists deal specifically with human and/or related non-human remains...

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

You are exactly, Trog... One of the reasons archeologists prefer to wait until they have more money and better tools to extract essential information from a site... The number one thing you learn when studying archeology is that you are engaging in destruction... The trick is to do it systematically and in the framework of theory...

  Ron


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## annie44 (Dec 23, 2006)

Thanks for your comments, Ron.


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Cindy, Kelly...

  Thanks for taking the time and courtesy to reply... There's definitely a need to strive for balance here...But there are those who only see what they want to see...

  Happy holidays to all forums members and their families!!!!!!!!!

  Ron


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## capsoda (Dec 23, 2006)

Well said Bill and Ron. I am a bottle digger/collector and I have dug for bottles with some archy types. One of my favorite diggin buds was an archy. He has passed quite a few years ago but was a passionate digger/collector and he kept a balance going in the comminuty. He was replaced by a theiving, coniving little witch who stole many many archeoligicaly important items and sold them on ebay of all places. She is now paying for her trans gressions in prison.

 I beleive that this guy is wrong and is not one of the good guys. If he were he would be tring to save something great and not woring about a dump that is of no real use archeoligically.


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 23, 2006)

It is knowledge and not a piece of paper that determines who is an archeologist. I'm sure there has been plenty learned from people without a degree. In the same token I believe there has been plenty destroyed and squandered by those with a degree. In my travels, growing up with a father who collected Indian Relics, I have seen academics who were better off keeping their mouth's shut. How many great finds have been made by the amature compared to those made by the pro's. A Degree is given to the person who graduates last in his class as well as first in his class. The ones who become City employed are probably somewhere in the bottom of that barrel. I for one do not have a degree in local history but I bet I have read more and have retained more than many who call themselves "Professionals"!


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## Gunsmoke47 (Dec 23, 2006)

I have had the rewarding experience of working with three different archeologists on six different occasions.  The three I have worked with were anal in the recovery of artifacts as they should be, because that is their job.  That is what they do.  They take dirt off ten centimeters at a time, and map in profiles one meter square.  They do this to try and figure out or understand what was taking place 100 years, 1000 years or 10,000 years ago.  It doesn't matter if you were Pharoh's daughter, the limb off of George Washington's cherry tree or Joe Blow's flask in a privy.  
      To some archys, people like us are just potters.  But to other archys, people like us are a godsend.  We help them because they are so understaffed.  To group all archeologist into one category would be as stupid as to group unethical a-hole bottle diggers in with the responsible bottle diggers that constitute the majority of this forum.  Please don't slam all archeologist over this quote by some ignorant professional in New Hampshire.
      Tiger: If you want to get up close and observe what the archys do...volunteer.  You won't get to keep anything that you find, but you will see the amount of work that is involved.  
      Zane: You are correct about learned people without a degree...I am one of them.  I am active in the recovery of Indian artifacts, both historic and pre-historic, as well as military and glass artifacts.  
      I am not on a soap-box here, I will dig a privy, dump, or pit and keep my finds as long as it is legal.  I also gps, log, and document all my finds.  
      Please just don't group all professionals in the same category as this idiot from New Hampshire. Happy Diggin and Happy Holidays to you all, Kelley[]


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Dean...

  In  Massachusetts the process is generally quite open... Unless there is concern about the site being vandalized, state and university sponsored excavations are open to the public... Umass most years does a field school in Old Deerfield, a well-preserved colonial community, and the public is invited to visit and ask questions... Every year the Massachusetts Historical Commission sponsors Archeology Week... A whole host of programs takes place in various towns and cities across the state, all open to the public...

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 23, 2006)

Hey, Kelly... Nicely put...

  Have you had a chance to do any excavations or surveys lately?

  Ron


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## Gunsmoke47 (Dec 23, 2006)

Hey Ron, the week after Thanksgiving I was invited to a week long survey on Mackenzie's Indian Wars battle of Palo Duro Canyon. We started this survey back in March. We only got to participate 3 of the scheduled 5 days due to inclimate weather. In the 3 days we amassed about 100 more artifacts but nothing that would knock your socks off. Happy Holidays, Kelley


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 23, 2006)

Don't get me wrong. I don't think all Professional Archeologists are bad. I know the majority are good but it's always the bad ones who we remember the most. They seem to leave that bad taste in your mouth you just can't get out. Kind of like the one quoted in the article we are discussing here.


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## ConchDigger (Dec 23, 2006)

What I am doing on my digs (i've just done it on my first) is to put together a shadow box for the family who owns the property. Most of the owners I have permission from have owned thier properties for over a century. In the box I put a few of the little bottles, some of the artifacts (like the gold pocket watch), etc, and behind the little cubicals in the background is an enlarged sepia photo of the main house. This is part of the family's history and I cannot tell you how much it means to them. Some of the items will go to the local African American/Bahama Heritage museum for display. I believe having these tangible "things" adds a new dimmension to history that people in the communitty can get more out of than just reading about people, places, events in a book. The things I find will not just sit in the dark somewhere gathering dust. I will post a photo when I get back to town for you guys to see.


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## Bottleman (Dec 24, 2006)

I have been watching this thread for a few days now but didnâ€™t post anything. I think you made a good point Kelley. There are a couple things I disagree about with the author though. I believe that the author should have done some more research before saying â€œLately[/b], new visitors -- treasure seekers who dig holesâ€¦â€ According to an earlier post, bottle diggers have been digging at the site for over 25 years now. I believe that times are changing and if anyone disturbs the environment, someone will complain about it. 
 Also in this article you can see that he says bottles sell for 1,000 or more on ebay and that the itemâ€™s true value can not be measured in dollars. I have never been to this dump before but from what I have herd it does not date back to the 1850-60 when pontiled bottles were made. By saying a bottles true value can not be measured in dollars you get the idea that it is one of a kind bottle and no duplicates can be found. I also donâ€™t get his point when he says its value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context. Does this also mean that if an aerologist like himself dug it, it would be of no value? I do understand though that to some people a bottle can be priceless if they want it that bad for their collection.

 ~~Tom


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## bikegoon (Dec 24, 2006)

> ORIGINAL:  tigermaple1855
> 
> My biggest problem with archaeology and their digging principles is that it's so secretive and shrouded.  I've seen it here in the US and also over in Greece.  We as spectators cannot get close enough to observe the digs and after everything is dug it goes into storage.  We, as taxpayers fund most of these digs and most of it ends up never seeing the light of day.  If, on every dig they were required to make a public presentation of their findings they would have more support from guys like us.  Dean


 
 Yes, True.

 Remember when they raised the Hunley?
 The team was so kind as to offer "you must pay to see" subscription, just to see how the work progressed on the hunley.
 So yes, much of it is shrouded.
 I will have hoped that some real pro's worked on the Hunley, but by the looks of the site they had, and what they were charging to see a very big deal was quite annoying. 

 I guess when I have bottlecache open again, I will create a gallery of my digs and make visitors pay out the wazoo for it[]

 Of course I would never do that, but it was good to vent.


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## bearswede (Dec 24, 2006)

That's really thoughtful, Brenda... Kudos!!

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 24, 2006)

> I also donâ€™t get his point when he says its value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context.


 
  Hi Tom...

  When archeologists excavate, they take the soil down in shallow layers, documenting exact position of each artifact... When a unit is finished, a soil profile is taken and later artifacts can be matched up to the natural or artificial stratigraphy of the site... Without this information, the artifact loses some, perhaps most, of its significance as it relates to human behavior...

  Ron


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## bearswede (Dec 24, 2006)

Harold...

  Here's some info on the Hunley...

http://home.att.net/~JVNautilus/Hunley/Hunleyarchaeology.html

  Ron


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## stonemason (Dec 24, 2006)

Wow, a lot of posts on this subject. I wanted to add my 2 cents. Years ago,as a young kid, I was part of an archeological dig in Manchester where an indian village sat. We found all kinds of neat stuff where on of those bridges now sits. I was part of a group from Franklin Pierce College in Rindge NH and was helping out just for fun. I know most of what was found is sitting in boxes,warehoused for no one to see.I parted ways with the so called legitimate archeological professionals a long time ago for a few reasons. Most of them are overeducated snobs who look down on recreational hunters as criminals stealing history,the government guys lie like hell to justify their positions,and a lot of the so called experts will make up "facts"to get their funding for these digs. 40 years later nothing has changed. You cant trust any of them and they should all be challenged at every turn to verify their legal right to keep the rest of us out. Another addition: I changed careers some time ago and became a paramedic. I did a lot of my training in Manchester and had to go into that area on occasion for someone who was ill or injured.The homeless who stay there will tell you that they get flooded out on a pretty regular basis so I doubt any big holes that are there now will be there much longer. That river runs pretty high every spring and cleans the banks up nicely.I am willing to bet the guy raising hell about the dump knows this or should if he has been around there for a while. There is no telling what has come out of the banks and washed away over time. I know I wouldnt eat the fish there though.


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## bikegoon (Dec 24, 2006)

Thanks Ron!

 Never saw that page before![8|]


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## Mainepontil (Dec 24, 2006)

> ORIGINAL: bearswede
> 
> I think you're being very unfair, Joel... His reply sounded honest and sincere to me...
> 
> Ron


 
 What I don't like Ron is his general attitude about us bottle collectors (not just diggers)  I don't know of any real archaeologist that respects bottle collectors.  They won't admit it but they believe the collectors are just as guilty as the diggers because they are the ones that drive up the value.   In college I was afraid to mention I was a bottle digger/collector, the professors did not like it one bit.  I'm sure you can agree somewhat there.[]

 So that is the only reason for my dislike of this whole thing.  No matter what we do or say their view of us will not ever change.

 Joel


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## swizzle (Dec 25, 2006)

I for one would like to see all of the artifacts that are pulled from the ground during a dig. I'm not saying that I'd like to see a play by play as they dig from day to day. With technology as advanced as it is today why can't they use a digital camera to photo every artifact and make a few video's. Whatever is not on display in a museum could easily be put on a webpage for all to see after the dig is over. Why not have a virtual museum of all the artifacts and label each piece to the best of the archeologist knowledge as to what each item is. Maybe then there won't be such a cloud of doubt and uncertainty and we can start changing the opinion of the general publics view of the archeologist. Swizzle


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## zanes_antiques (Dec 25, 2006)

WOW!!!! Awesome site on the Hunley.


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## towhead (Dec 26, 2006)

I'm not an archeologist....But I sure do envy you Bearswede!!!! []  I always wanted to be one!   ....had some classes in college to do with anthropology and archeology....  and I can never get enough of local history!    Good Luck to you "guys" in New Hampshire!


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## bttlmark (Dec 26, 2006)

> When archeologists excavate, they take the soil down in shallow layers, documenting exact position of each artifact... When a unit is finished, a soil profile is taken and later artifacts can be matched up to the natural or artificial stratigraphy of the site... Without this information, the artifact loses some, perhaps most, of its significance as it relates to human behavior...





> ORIGINAL: bearswede
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.


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## Diggerwilly (Dec 26, 2006)

This may be the most pointless thread on a forum I have ever read.You are bitter because you are not being allowed to dig giant holes on land that you do not have permission to be on.People were being kicked out dumps on private and public land in the sixties and seventies so this is not a new thing.No one in the article mentions new legislation to ban or regulate digging,so why the title?I am not a saint and dig without permission from time to time but I know I am in the wrong.If I am kicked out that is the result of my action,no looking back.What I do not do,is get on the internet,brag of all my finds,how much they are worth,how I dig 20 foot holes in loose ashy fill,and threaten everbody who tells me I am being unsafe.Git R Dug,Nuke that dump,I dig them deep,all catchlines of the artist formerly known as Dirtflicker.For the record I have not been involved in any of the past controversy,and know none of the parties.I have read  back a few months in the post and have seen them all as well as post from the same bunch on other sites.If anything would fuel the archeologists arguement that we are just a bunch of money grubbing,lowlifes, it's your attitudes.Earlyglass is right,I have seen nothing great come from that dump,sure it yeilds bottles that are worth some money but its 90's stuff.Stuff guys earlier diggers gave up on because it was only worth digging to make a few bucks.They left to go find pontils,not because they were "pantywastes".Move on,don't sit and argue in public with them,that's a beauracrat's home field.Go dig some stuff that matters before it is lost,they won't.You live in a state that is plenty old and just because you post more of your finds don't mean other people aren't digging more than you.I have a friend in your neck of the woods and from what I understand New Hampshire and Maine have some of the most liberal Right to Use laws in the country.Diggers,hunters, fisherman,and other outdoorsman use private land freely as long as it is not posted.This sounds crazy to people in most of the country as we would not think of using land unless it is public or our own.Don't screw that up.While I try to convince landowners that what I do is safe,you and your evil twin Dirtflicker are posting pics of 20 ft. holes along with quotes like "if I die in a good dump,yadayadayada."This ignorant approach threatens our hobby more than any overbearing group of archeologists ever will.I hope you don't die but if you do it might screw up my digging so please stop.If you want to dig a 20 foot hole live free or die,but don't broadcast it and not accept others opinions.NOW PLEASE SHUT UP AND GO DIG SOMETHING!!!!!GIT ER DUG!!!!!!!


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## bearswede (Dec 26, 2006)

> so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.


 
  That's probably a fair statement... Farther back in time tho, dumps and even  hearths can yield important information...

  Ron


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## GuntherHess (Dec 26, 2006)

> quote:
> 
> so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.


 
 I dont think that is the case, items dont have to be in an undestrurbed strata to be significant. for example ... If you find a piece of pottery that has a recogizable/datable pattern and it has a backmark of a company that was not known to make that type of pottery, that may be of great interest. If you find an item in a geographic location where those items are not expected to be found it may be significant ... say for instance something marked in German in an area where Germans were not thought to have settled.


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## frank (Dec 26, 2006)

I will look into getting proper digging permits in the local areas around  that i digg in!I think this wake up call to all  diggers good or bad . []


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## druggistnut (Dec 27, 2006)

If anyone else would care to write to the Manchester Express newspaper, this fellow is the one "spearheading" the articles/investigation. While it hasn't been proven, keep in mind, he is PROBABLY the one who called the digging to the attention of the State archeologist. If you read his original article, perhaps you will see what I did. It's obvious that he reads the posts here. 
 If anyone has an idea as to why he wants a local person for rebuttal/etc..., let me know. I thought you might have insight in to that, Buck. 
 His emailed response to me is below. PLEASE, keep it civil and reasonably intelligent.  <smile>  We don't want to give anyone any ammunition. I read quite a bit about William Rathje, as Mr. Baxter suggested, and it gives me more insight as to where HE (Baxter) is coming from. http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/saving/recycling/solidwaste/landfiller.html  (one Rathje article) 
 It's only a matter of time before they start clamping down even more and we need to be prepared. 
 I understand those of you who say "keep under the radar." I have always tried to keep my head low, too, and not advertise the fact that I actually made some money digging. It matters not that it goes right back to the hobby. People can be turned away from the pleasant picture of "hobby diggers" when they hear about someone digging a $1500.00 milk bottle. It just does no one any good to post that stuff. We DO have plenty of lurkers here and elsewhere. Every Dr. Fletchers I ever dug turns in to instant riches, in those minds. 

 If an FOHBC club from the Manchester area feels compelled to get involved, that would be great, but I would suggest looking to the National office for guidance, first. 
 Bill Heatley 
 *************************************************************** 

ebaxter@manchexpress.com  Writes>>>>>>>>> 

 Mr. Heatley, 
 We published your letter in the Dec. 26 edition of the Express. I just 
 wanted to say thanks for the insight and the courage you showed to voice 
 your opinion. It definitely added to discussion. 
 As to the postings on the forum, well, if all of you banded together 
 maybe you might get legislation passed allowing you to do this legally 
 rather than digging in a gray area.If you think it's impossible, look to 
 the Civil Rights movement, look to Rosa Parks. However, it's good to see 
 people on the forum have opinions, even if they keep within the safe 
 confines of friends and people who think only like they do. 
 And again, a general request still stands - if you know anyone from this 
 area who wants to go on the record with a rebuttal I would be happy to 
 talk with them and give them as much ink as anyone else. I agree that 
 there is a difference between a responsible collector and a treasure 
 hunter and I would like to make the readers aware of the distinction as 
 well as the ethics followed by the collectors, but I need a local voice 
 to do that. 
 Best regards and thanks again for the input. 
 Eric Baxter 
 Manchester Daily Express 
 PS Some of the forum members should read William Rathje's studies of 
 trash to see the information value that even the most recent waste 
 stream can generate.


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## bttlmark (Dec 28, 2006)

I wonder why he insists on a LOCAL when this is done across the country?


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## bottlediger (Dec 28, 2006)

so he  can get the credit for handing over the town's first victom [8|]


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## mikmis (Dec 31, 2006)

[ul][*][align=left]there is another prospective to this issue.the fact that it is a waste dump site without proper treatment mechanisms in place .i cant imagine how many chemicals and other harmfull agents have filtered into the river. what about the fact that you guys are doing the city a favor buy helping reclaim the land to its natural state by removing these harmfull debries  to allow the soil to support new plant life .it would costs alot of money to have profesionals come in and reclaim that dump its verry hard work and maybe the city should be paying you guys to dig there .[][/align][/ul]


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## Digger George (Jan 1, 2007)

*"The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect the river to run backward as that any man who was born a free man should be contented when penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases." Joseph {Hinmaton Yalatkit} (1830-1904) Nez Perce chief*


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## bottlediger (Jan 2, 2007)

I hate when it says awaiting approval, I would really like to read what george has to say


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## bearswede (Jan 2, 2007)

> any man who was born a free man


 
  And what of those born otherwise...?

  Ron


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## Digger George (Jan 2, 2007)

and of those born otherwise must fight for their own freedom and rights, just like the bottle digger should fight for their respect and rights to dig, especially at a place where the ground is disturbed(what archaeologists avoid), where it is a flood plane that can't be built on and where no one is hurting anyone. It's just a turn of the century landfill, why does such a serious conflict have to be created. It's not about the money. It's about getting outdoors, learning and having fun!


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## zanes_antiques (Jan 2, 2007)

It has been said many ways in the replies to this post but that is the best I've heard it put!


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