# 1880's violin scroll flask? Salem oak / Jersey devil.



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 2, 2021)

Has a very sharp pontil and loads of bubbles. DG is embossed standing for Downer Glass. My question, Is this an original? Was there ever an 1800's flask made like this? Are they all reproductions?  Thanks for any information. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 2, 2021)

The seller replied to my question as to it's authenticity. He assured me it is an original and not a reproduction made at a later date. What do you all think? This makes my head hurt. I cannot find any information on this flask. Other than Downer sand and the farm.. cool history there.. the sand of choice in the manufacture of depression glass. Downer sand is the state soil since 2006. I found only two pictures of this bottle on the internet. One was a lime green. The other is the aqua one I got. There was a third cobalt one that was titled as a reproduction. That one still went for about $35. Okay, please be gentle. Lol!
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## Mjbottle (Apr 2, 2021)

If its a repro they sure went the extra mile to make it so crude, i find most repros tend to have a "cleaner" look to them whereas this one looks very rough in my eyes. im no expert so i cant attest to its authenticity but i will say it looks very nice.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 2, 2021)

Mjbottle said:


> If its a repro they sure went the extra mile to make it so crude, i find most repros tend to have a "cleaner" look to them whereas this one looks very rough in my eyes. im no expert so i cant attest to its authenticity but i will say it looks very nice.


Thanks Mj. One thing I noticed is it is lighter than any reproduction I have seen. Reproductions that are made of a thicker glass. It is worn in all the right places. Pontil is so sharp it would slice your thumb easily without much effort. I just am at a loss for information. Is this considered a historical flask and if so what GII- number would it be?
Thanks for the help.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## Dogo (Apr 2, 2021)

Robby, I think that is a repro.  I remember seeing similar bottles years ago, but not that particular one. I wish my memory was better. The clarity and crudeness remind me of the earlier repros.  I THINK Downer Glass was a small shop that tried to compete with Clevenger Bros, but did not have the same skill level.


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## Csa (Apr 2, 2021)

Robby - cool bottle regardless. The only angle I can help you with a bit is the jersey devil angle. I'm actually down near where this legend was born this weekend opening up our shore house in LBI, which as you know is right next to the pine barrens where the "Leeds Devil" (aka Jersey Devil) legend was born.   When I saw the devil/dragon like image and name on your bottle the first thing that popped into my mind was that was a more "modern" rendition of the Jersey Devil, than was in use in the 1800's. I could be full of it, but not sure exactly when the image and name "Jersey Devil" replaced the Leeds Devil iconography and name.  Here is a bit from the Wikipedia listing, *and gives you another angle to pursue.*

*The Leeds Devil[edit]*
Regal notes that, by the late 1700s and early 1800s, the "Leeds Devil" had become a legendary monster or ghost story in the southern New Jersey area. Into the early to mid-19th century, stories continued to circulate in southern New Jersey of the Leeds Devil, a "monster wandering the Pine Barrens". An oral tradition of "Leeds Devil" monster/ghost stories subsequently became established in the Pine Barrens area.[3]

Although the "Leeds Devil" legend has apparently existed since the 18th century, Regal states that the more modern depiction of the Jersey Devil, as well as the now pervasive "Jersey Devil" name, first became truly standardized in current form during the early 20th century:



> During the pre-Revolutionary period, the Leeds family, who called the Pine Barrens home, soured its relationship with the Quaker majority ... The Quakers saw no hurry to give their former fellow religionist an easy time in circles of gossip. His wives had all died, as had several children. His son Titan stood accused by Benjamin Franklin of being a ghost ... The family crest had winged dragons on it. In a time when thoughts of independence were being born, these issues made the Leeds family political and religious monsters. From all this over time the legend of the Leeds Devil was born. References to the 'Jersey Devil' do not appear in newspapers or other printed material until the twentieth century. The first major flap came in 1909. It is from these sightings that the popular image of the creature—batlike wings, horse head, claws, and general air of a dragon—became standardized.[7]


Indeed, many references to a "Leeds Devil" or "Devil of Leeds" appear in earlier printed material prior to the widespread usage of the "Jersey Devil" name. During 1859, the _Atlantic Monthly_ published an article detailing the Leeds Devil folk tales popular among Pine Barren residents (or "pine rats".)[8][9] A newspaper from 1887 describes sightings of a winged creature, referred to as "the Devil of Leeds", allegedly spotted near the Pine Barrens and well known among the local populace of Burlington County, New Jersey:


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 2, 2021)

Csa said:


> Robby - cool bottle regardless. The only angle I can help you with a bit is the jersey devil angle. I'm actually down near where this legend was born this weekend opening up our shore house in LBI, which as you know is right next to the pine barrens where the "Leeds Devil" (aka Jersey Devil) legend was born.   When I saw the devil/dragon like image and name on your bottle the first thing that popped into my mind was that was a more "modern" rendition of the Jersey Devil, than was in use in the 1800's. I could be full of it, but not sure exactly when the image and name "Jersey Devil" replaced the Leeds Devil iconography and name.  Here is a bit from the Wikipedia listing, *and gives you another angle to pursue.*
> 
> *The Leeds Devil[edit]*
> Regal notes that, by the late 1700s and early 1800s, the "Leeds Devil" had become a legendary monster or ghost story in the southern New Jersey area. Into the early to mid-19th century, stories continued to circulate in southern New Jersey of the Leeds Devil, a "monster wandering the Pine Barrens". An oral tradition of "Leeds Devil" monster/ghost stories subsequently became established in the Pine Barrens area.[3]
> ...


Devilishly informative. Thanks 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 2, 2021)

Dogo said:


> Robby, I think that is a repro.  I remember seeing similar bottles years ago, but not that particular one. I wish my memory was better. The clarity and crudeness remind me of the earlier repros.  I THINK Downer Glass was a small shop that tried to compete with Clevenger Bros, but did not have the same skill level.


I understand. So they never made this flask, kind of like a fantasy flask from a competitor of Clevenger. I have seen the reproduction with the GDW instead of DG embossed and it is placed on the opposite side I believe. Not sure what glass works made this one. Here is one example from Ebay they say this one is from Downer Glass. Mine is 7 ¹/⁴"  tall and this cobalt one is 6³/⁴" tall. Glass works mark is in a different spot. The cobalt one looks fake even the lip is different. Mine has black and white chunks of crud in the glass, hard to see in the pictures of the lip there is black crap. So in short, there never was an original. There was a number of glass houses that copied one of Downer Glass Works fantasy bottle. That doesn't seem to add up. If they were that hot a seller wouldn't there be more on the market? Not disagreeing but more logically brainstorming. What do you think?
ROBBYBOBBY64.








						Vintage Downer Glass Jersey Devil Salem Oak Blue Flask  | eBay
					

One side has the mythical creature Jersey Devil and the reverse side has a Salem Oak tree. It also has the initials DG (Downer Glass).



					www.ebay.com


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## hemihampton (Apr 2, 2021)

I remember seeing a Horror Movie  about the Jersey Devil a few years ago. A Weird Movie. Check it out. LEON.


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## sandchip (Apr 3, 2021)

"Repro" is a much misused term.  This scroll flask is not a reproduction, but a modern, albeit hand blown with early methods, fantasy bottle.  To be a reproduction, there would have to have been an original blown at an earlier time, which there was not.  There are reproductions, adaptations and fantasy bottles, all different things and not to be confused or used interchangeably.  Just trying to clarify matters here for everyone's benefit.

Robby, you're right when you described it as "a fantasy flask".  It is original in the sense that that mold had not been produced before, but not original in the conventional sense of being blown in the early to mid-1800s.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 3, 2021)

sandchip said:


> "Repro" is a much misused term.  This scroll flask is not a reproduction, but a modern, albeit hand blown with early methods, fantasy bottle.  To be a reproduction, there would have to have been an original blown at an earlier time, which there was not.  There are reproductions, adaptations and fantasy bottles, all different things and not to be confused or used interchangeably.  Just trying to clarify matters here for everyone's benefit.
> 
> Robby, you're right when you described it as "a fantasy flask".  It is original in the sense that that mold had not been produced before, but not original in the conventional sense of being blown in the early to mid-1800s.


Got it. Thank you all for the clarification. I style i don't really collect. How do I do this? Lol! I know somebody who will love it. Guess that's all that matters. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## saratogadriver (Apr 5, 2021)

Agree with Sandchip.   20th century fantasy bottle.    Robby, do you have McKearin and Wilson's book with the charts?   If you collect flasks at all it's a must.   Generally the best way to figure out if they made that mold in the 1800s...

Jim G


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 5, 2021)

saratogadriver said:


> Agree with Sandchip.   20th century fantasy bottle.    Robby, do you have McKearin and Wilson's book with the charts?   If you collect flasks at all it's a must.   Generally the best way to figure out if they made that mold in the 1800s...
> 
> Jim G


Thanks for the resource. Not big into flasks, hence my questions. Lots to learn. Loads of reproductions. Now fantasy? Oh boy!
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## EXCHF5200 (Apr 7, 2021)

Csa, as you acknowledged, you're not from the area. No one locally refers to the Jersey Devil as the "Leeds Devil".  With that said, I believe that Jersey Devil bottle to be a repro. Thats the problem with buying a bottle as opposed to finding one. It appears "too clean" to have been unearthed. Regardless, it is still a cool bottle.


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## Csa (Apr 7, 2021)

I am actually local. North Jersey guy my whole life. Just bought a beach house in LBI. Agreed everyone calls it Jersey Devil NOW. my point to Robby was before 1900 it wasn’t really known as Jersey devil so having that name and image on a flask from late 1800s would have been odd. As you and the experts point out it must be a fantasy glass flask, and there never was an “original” version of this piece. 
Btw- I hear there are some decent bottle dumps in the pine barrens. Any body in that area looking for a digging partner this summer?


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 7, 2021)

EXCHF5200 said:


> Csa, as you acknowledged, you're not from the area. No one locally refers to the Jersey Devil as the "Leeds Devil".  With that said, I believe that Jersey Devil bottle to be a repro. Thats the problem with buying a bottle as opposed to finding one. It appears "too clean" to have been unearthed. Regardless, it is still a cool bottle.


I have not been able to date this bottle exactly.  I get a 1950's date range. They never made this bottle in the 1800's. I can't even find information about Downer glass works of Williamstown NJ. Rumor has it that they were only in business a few years. Clevenger did make a reproduction in the 1970's. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## dab46 (Apr 7, 2021)

I don't  know, but reading all the comments it has to be a rare repro.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Apr 7, 2021)

Csa said:


> I am actually local. North Jersey guy my whole life. Just bought a beach house in LBI. Agreed everyone calls it Jersey Devil NOW. my point to Robby was before 1900 it wasn’t really known as Jersey devil so having that name and image on a flask from late 1800s would have been odd. As you and the experts point out it must be a fantasy glass flask, and there never was an “original” version of this piece.
> Btw- I hear there are some decent bottle dumps in the pine barrens. Any body in that area looking for a digging partner this summer?


Always available to lend a hand if you want to comb the pineys.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## American (Apr 7, 2021)

Well it's not a repro of anything.  It's a commemorative flask blown for the Jersey Devil Bottle Diggers Club from Mt. Holly, NJ in the late 70's.  I belonged to the club and we all had one of these scrolls at the time.  It was made in the same time period  that the scroll flask commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Medford Lakes Canoe Carnival in 1981.  The scroll flask was a favorite for commemorating all kinds of clubs and things back then.


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## American (Apr 7, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Has a very sharp pontil and loads of bubbles. DG is embossed standing for Downer Glass. My question, Is this an original? Was there ever an 1800's flask made like this? Are they all reproductions?  Thanks for any information.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


70's bottle club commemorative flask made for the Jersey Devil Bottle Diggers Club in Mt. Holly, NJ that I use to belong to.  We all had one at one time.  I think my daughter still has mine.


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## American (Apr 7, 2021)

Csa said:


> I am actually local. North Jersey guy my whole life. Just bought a beach house in LBI. Agreed everyone calls it Jersey Devil NOW. my point to Robby was before 1900 it wasn’t really known as Jersey devil so having that name and image on a flask from late 1800s would have been odd. As you and the experts point out it must be a fantasy glass flask, and there never was an “original” version of this piece.
> Btw- I hear there are some decent bottle dumps in the pine barrens. Any body in that area looking for a digging partner this summer?


I don't think I ever found a bottle in the Pine Barrens, but not from lack of trying.  Best thing I found was piles of slag at Malaga from the old glass works.  Mostly just got lost in the maze of sand roads.  There has to be something around the Atsion Mansion but we never found anything.  Go a little further west to Camden and dig a privy - bring a gun.


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