# IN SEARCH OF / NON-ABM / FANCY-IMAGE / CROWN SODA BOTTLES



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 22, 2013)

This might be a case of my not having looked around enough, but after numerous hours of searching the Internet I can't find a confirmed example of a Pictorial / Fancy soda bottle that ...

 1. Is not a Hutchinson bottle.
 2. Is not a blob-top bottle.
 3. Has a Crown Closure.
 4. Was hand blown in a mold. 
 5. Was not made by an automatic bottle machine (Pre-ABM).

 Thus I am seeking help to find examples of circa 1900 to circa 1910 Non-ABM Crown soda bottles that do have ...

 1. Fancy embossing (diamond-cut, etc) like the later (1920s) deco/designer bottles.
 2. An embossed pictorial image like some of the earlier Hutch's. 

 Because many of the earlier Hutchinson bottles have images of eagles - trains - etc embossed on them, and were hand blown in molds, we know the ability to carve a mold with those types of images was possible, not to mention the even older pictorial/historical flasks.

 So my primary questions are ...

 1.  Was it just a trend in that fancy/pictorial Crown / Non-ABM soda bottles were not popular between about 1900 and 1910 and as a consequence simply weren't made?

 Or ...

 2. They were popular and abundant but I have just failed to find any?

 Unfortunately, most eBay sellers and the like probably don't know the difference between a ABM soda bottle and a Non-ABM soda bottle, and many of those that think they do know often get it wrong. In fact, I'm not always 100% sure myself. So for the sake of simplicity, and in the majority of cases, I would describe a ABM soda bottle as one whose mold seam runs the entire length of the bottle, including up and over the lip. Of course, some ABM bottles were also "tooled," which would smooth out the upper portion of the seam, but I think that particular feature is somewhat less likely on a true ABM soda bottle. On Non-ABM soda bottles the seam would typically stop near the shoulder. 

 Anyhoo, if you have an example of the type of soda bottle I am searching for, please share a picture of it with us and tell us something about it, especially if it has a makers mark and/or a date code. And please, let's be as specific as we can and focus on soda bottles you are about 99% certain are Non-ABM Crown's that are either fancy or have an image embossed on them. Typically speaking, automatic bottle machines were, for the most part, introduced and became in popular use "around" 1910.

 I will continue to search myself and will let you know if/when I find anything. My current observation is that pictorial/fancy soda bottles just weren't  popular in the late 1800s / early 1900s and explains why I can't find the examples I am looking for.

 And yes, I confess I might be searching for the impossible again, but I guess that's what makes me tick. (Lol)

 Thanks a lot.

 Sodapopbob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 22, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Everything I have been seeing so far (Non-ABM) is either embossed with words only, but is plain and not fancy, and do not have embossed images.

 Bob


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## Bass Assassin (Jul 22, 2013)

Nice thread, should be interesting.


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## celerycola (Jul 22, 2013)

Bob, you need to get out to a bottle show or maybe buy a book or two. Most of this information will not show up in a google search. I saw several at Manchester over the weekend picturing animals such as eagles, indians, a pig, etc. 

 Where I am from there were three companies using eagles, a camel, an elephant, a deer, and several with Indian heads, all before 1910 and hand finished from a single county.

 As far as pre-abm deco bottles gay-ola adopted a bottle design patented in 1914 in many cities. Bludwine used a hobble skirt bottle across the US as early as 1906 but that bottle was not design patented until 1918. One of the most elaborate deco sodas I have ever seen is the Kola-Mint with raised and sunken panels, horizontal rings, and the script trade mark embossed on high relief mint leaves. Every one is hand finished.

 If you want sources check the Alabama Soda Book, the Oklahoma Soda Book, the Kansas Soda Book, the Arkansas Soda Book, the Illinois soda book, the Oregon Soda Book, the Washington Soda Book, and others.


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## OsiaBoyce (Jul 22, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> Bob, you need to get out to a bottle show or maybe buy a book or two. Most of this information will not show up in a google search. I saw several at Manchester over the weekend picturing animals such as eagles, indians, a pig, etc.
> 
> ...


 
 The Master has spoken [].


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## cyberdigger (Jul 23, 2013)

This is a weird thread.. what are you looking for Bob?


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## cowseatmaize (Jul 23, 2013)

4 & 5 are the same thing as far as I can tell. 
 Diamond or other art deco forms I doubt exist in a BIM so picture bottles would be the thing to look for.
 The range your looking for I think should be 1894 to 1920 (or so) and mostly the picture type (flags, eagles, bears and whatever. Narrowing down to soda and not including beer or just store bottles is going to make it even tougher..
 I'm not a collector so I can't help at all really.[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks for the replies ... and please post some pictures if available.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Examples of recommended search terms ... 
 Which can also be used with the words "Embossed" and/or "Crown" for alternative searches. 

 For circa 1900 to 1910 soda bottles: 

 Hand Blown Soda Bottle
 Blown In Mold Soda Bottle
 BIM Soda Bottle
 Pre 1910 Soda Bottle
 1900 Soda Bottle

 For circa 1910 to 1920s soda bottles:

 Automatic Bottle Machine Soda Bottle
 ABM Soda Bottle
 Deco Soda Bottle
 Designer Soda Bottle
 Post 1910 Soda Bottle
 1920s Soda Bottle


 Because I am primarily an ACL (Applied Color Label) soda bottle collector, this means I have a limited number of non ACLs in my collection. This also means I have to search books and the Internet and rely on the descriptions of others when trying to determine whether a particular soda bottle is hand blown or not (Pre-ABM / Pre Circa 1910).

 As I indicated in my opening page, I am primarily looking for two things ...

 1.  Hand blown (BIM) Crown soda bottles with images embossed on them.
 2.  Hand blown (BIM) Crown soda bottles with fancy/intricate embossing on them.

 As a result of my ongoing search, I have found a few BIM crown soda bottles with images on them. However, as I said, I have to rely on the individual's description when they claim the bottles are hand blown and not machine made, which I personally cannot confirm one way or another. In any event, hand blown bottles with images embossed on them apparently do exist, although they seem to be farther and fewer between compared to the greater numbers of plain, straight-sided bottles that don't have images and are typically embossed with block lettering, with some that used cursive script like Coca Cola and others. 

 As for finding fancy / intricately embossed (deco style) hand blown soda bottles prior to about 1910, the search still continues on that as I have not found any noteworthy examples yet. In fact, the more I search/research this type of bottle, the more inclined I become to ask ...

 "What was it that influenced designers to evolve from straight-sided soda bottles to the fancier deco/designer types of soda bottles? Was it simply a reflection of the times - art - architecture - etc?  Was it the introduction of bottle making machines and new tecnology? Was it the evolution of closures from Hutchinson to Blob to Crown? Was a combination of all of the above? Or are there other reasons not mentioned here? And if so, what were those reasons?"

 By the way, some observers feel the advent of the deco era began with the introduction of the Root/Dean Coca Cola contour bottle in 1915 thru 1917. Thus, my interest in trying to find earlier examples (if they exist) prior to circa 1910. 

 I intend to look into this in more detail as time allows and hopefully find some logical explanations to my questions. I will share what I find in future postings. In the meantime, the following links are to examples of some of the "image" labels I've found, which are described by the sellers as "Hand blown Crown soda bottles."   


 Witch 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/salem-mass-soda-bottle-emb-witch-on-broom-100-yrs

 Dog 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-soda-embossed-dog-john-tebo-253185085

 Train 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spencer-carbonating-co-nc-train-slug-129527960

 Elk 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-soda-embossed-elk-stag-deer-253682624

 And here's my current favorite ...

 Jumbo Soda Bottle ... (From a 2006 listing).

 Described as:

 "Hand blown - Hand tooled crown top."

 "This rare Jumbo soda bottle was made by the Root Glass Company of Terre Haute, Indiana over 100 years ago." 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/new-orleans-jumbo-5-cent-soda-emb-elephant-rare


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Close Up ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Regarding my questions about the advent of the deco era and what influenced it  ...

 So far I like Digger Odell's explanation best but I intend to look into for more specific reasons.

 From Digger Odell's website; "Designer Soda Bottles."

 http://www.bottlebooks.com/Designer%20Sodas/designer_soda_bottles.htm

 "The machine made bottle era ushered in new promises for soda manufacturers. By 1910, many bottle companies had installed the Owens automatic bottle machine.  With this new capability came new ideas for designs in soda bottles.  New forms were appearing with advent of the Crown seal. Bottle designers created an infinite array of shapes, designs, patterns and styles as the competition heated up to quench the thirst of the public."

 "The 1920s was a time expansion. The First World War had ended and ushered in tremendous technological advances that permeated every facet of industry. The Midwest was alive with new glass factories operating on a new fuel - natural gas. Around the turn of the century many factories got started in Ohio, Illinois and Indiana. The older Eastern factories struggled with both the need for fuel but also the need to update their equipment. The newer glass makers employed the newest equipment, production from which could far out strip the hand tooling done in some factories. There were glasshouses still hand tooling bottles but they were becoming scarce. The ubiquitous Hutchinson soda was declared unsanitary. The invention of the crown seal in 1892 changed the industry. Now peacetime brought prosperity heretofore unseen. The new century meant new ideas and that mean new designs and new art forms. The art of the times is reflected in the designs."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

I am especially interested in this sentence by Digger Odell ...

*"The new century meant new ideas and that mean new designs and new art forms. The art of the times is reflected in the designs." *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

*For Starters ...*

 20th Century Art & Music 

 ( And looking for specifics that might have influenced soda bottle designs to go from blasÃ© straight-sided to using intricate patterns ).

 "1900 sheet music cover reflecting the era's optimism about a better future through technological progress."


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## celerycola (Jul 24, 2013)

Bob, you need to get out to a bottle show or maybe buy a book or two. Most of this information will not show up in a google search. I saw several at Manchester over the weekend picturing animals such as eagles, indians, a pig, etc. 

 Where I am from there were three companies using eagles, a camel, an elephant, a deer, and several with Indian heads, all before 1910 and hand finished from a single county.

 As far as pre-abm deco bottles gay-ola adopted a bottle design patented in 1914 in many cities. Bludwine used a hobble skirt bottle across the US as early as 1906 but that bottle was not design patented until 1918. One of the most elaborate deco sodas I have ever seen is the Kola-Mint with raised and sunken panels, horizontal rings, and the script trade mark embossed on high relief mint leaves. Every one is hand finished.

 If you want sources check the Alabama Soda Book, the Oklahoma Soda Book, the Kansas Soda Book, the Arkansas Soda Book, the Illinois soda book, the Oregon Soda Book, the Washington Soda Book, and others.


 Thanks for the replies ... and please post some pictures if available.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Examples of recommended search terms ... 
 Which can also be used with the words "Embossed" and/or "Crown" for alternative searches. 

 For circa 1900 to 1910 soda bottles: 

 Hand Blown Soda Bottle
 Blown In Mold Soda Bottle
 BIM Soda Bottle
 Pre 1910 Soda Bottle
 1900 Soda Bottle

 For circa 1910 to 1920s soda bottles:

 Automatic Bottle Machine Soda Bottle
 ABM Soda Bottle
 Deco Soda Bottle
 Designer Soda Bottle
 Post 1910 Soda Bottle
 1920s Soda Bottle


 Because I am primarily an ACL (Applied Color Label) soda bottle collector, this means I have a limited number of non ACLs in my collection. This also means I have to search books and the Internet and rely on the descriptions of others when trying to determine whether a particular soda bottle is hand blown or not (Pre-ABM / Pre Circa 1910).

 As I indicated in my opening page, I am primarily looking for two things ...

 1.  Hand blown (BIM) Crown soda bottles with images embossed on them.
 2.  Hand blown (BIM) Crown soda bottles with fancy/intricate embossing on them.

 As a result of my ongoing search, I have found a few BIM crown soda bottles with images on them. However, as I said, I have to rely on the individual's description when they claim the bottles are hand blown and not machine made, which I personally cannot confirm one way or another. In any event, hand blown bottles with images embossed on them apparently do exist, although they seem to be farther and fewer between compared to the greater numbers of plain, straight-sided bottles that don't have images and are typically embossed with block lettering, with some that used cursive script like Coca Cola and others. 

 As for finding fancy / intricately embossed (deco style) hand blown soda bottles prior to about 1910, the search still continues on that as I have not found any noteworthy examples yet. In fact, the more I search/research this type of bottle, the more inclined I become to ask ...

 "What was it that influenced designers to evolve from straight-sided soda bottles to the fancier deco/designer types of soda bottles? Was it simply a reflection of the times - art - architecture - etc?  Was it the introduction of bottle making machines and new tecnology? Was it the evolution of closures from Hutchinson to Blob to Crown? Was a combination of all of the above? Or are there other reasons not mentioned here? And if so, what were those reasons?"

 By the way, some observers feel the advent of the deco era began with the introduction of the Root/Dean Coca Cola contour bottle in 1915 thru 1917. Thus, my interest in trying to find earlier examples (if they exist) prior to circa 1910. 

 I intend to look into this in more detail as time allows and hopefully find some logical explanations to my questions. I will share what I find in future postings. In the meantime, the following links are to examples of some of the "image" labels I've found, which are described by the sellers as "Hand blown Crown soda bottles."   


 Witch 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/salem-mass-soda-bottle-emb-witch-on-broom-100-yrs

 Dog 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-soda-embossed-dog-john-tebo-253185085

 Train 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/spencer-carbonating-co-nc-train-slug-129527960

 Elk 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-soda-embossed-elk-stag-deer-253682624

 And here's my current favorite ...

 Jumbo Soda Bottle ... (From a 2006 listing).

 Described as:

 "Hand blown - Hand tooled crown top."

 "This rare Jumbo soda bottle was made by the Root Glass Company of Terre Haute, Indiana over 100 years ago." 

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/new-orleans-jumbo-5-cent-soda-emb-elephant-rare






 [/quote]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Please note it is not my intention to turn this into a strictly "Deco" soda bottle discussion and that my primary interest is still with finding pictures and references to pre-deco soda bottles that are "similar" in style but that date between about 1900 and 1910. So please bare with me regarding the following because it is only intended to try and exemplify what Digger Odell referred to as ...

 "The new century meant new ideas and that meant new designs ... "

 I can think of no better example of "design" than that associated with architecture, especially that of the ever changing New York skyline. Notice in the two pictures that follow how in the 1898 picture of New York the buildings are for the most part "box" shaped. Whereas in the 1931 picture we now see a couple of towering skyscrapers, namely the Chrysler building and the Empire State building. But even with this said, I wish to point out that the Chrysler building was built in 1930 with the Empire State building built a year later in 1931. So it goes without saying that those two buildings could not have had an influence on deco style soda bottles that date from the teens and early 1920s. The reason I mention this is because some accounts I've read claim it was the Chrysler building in particular that "ushered in the Deco era," which I somewhat disagree with, at least when it comes to soda bottles. In fact, I'd say 1930 and 1931 were closer to end of deco soda bottle era than to it's beginning. 

 However, I do believe that architectural design in general from about 1900 to about 1915 did play a role and have an influence on pre-1920 soda bottles. The influence I'm referring to is a trend starting around 1900 away from "boxy" buildings to the more elegant and much "taller" buildings that we think of now as skyscrapers. 

 Have you ever notice that many of the 1920s deco soda bottles are tall and slim? They got that design look from somewhere, and I'm suggesting one of those "somewhere's" might have been from architecture, especially skyscrapers. 

 Next I'm going to take a look at turn-of-the-century and 19-teens "Art" and see what I can come up with there that might have influenced the introduction of deco style soda bottles. 

 Bob

 [ 1898 New York Skyline  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

[  1931 New York Skyline  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Speaking of art ...

 I found the cover of this book interesting. (Notice the skyscraper in the background). I especially like a portion of the accompanying caption that says ...

 "*Streamlined* design aesthetic of the 1920s"

 More later

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> picturing animals such as eagles, indians, a pig, etc.
> 
> ...


 

 Pictures please. That way I won't have to spend hours looking for them. Plus it will help other members as well who are curious as to what those bottles look like. Then I can start digging even deeper as to what some of the influences might have been that appears to have started around 1905 causing bottle designers to switch gears from the blasÃ© straight-side's to the blazing decos. 

 Thanks

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Speaking of art and artist ...

 Pablo Picasso was one of if not the most influential artist in the early 1900s and later. I did a quick study of some of his earlier works and it appears it was around 1907 when he started to get more heavily involved with abstract imagery. Prior to about 1907 most of his works were of portraits and the like. Whether any of his early 1900s works had any influence on soda bottle designs, I can't rightly say. But it wouldn't surprise me if they did. After all, in a manner of speaking, bottle designers were also artist, and I can't image those bottle designers not being aware of Picasso's works.

 The work pictured below is from 1907 and titled "Portrait of Kahnweiler." I selected it at random from several of his circa 1910 works because I liked the odd shapes and thought it might best emphasize a possible connection to early art deco soda bottles. 

 So is there a connection between early 1900s streamlined architecture - abstract Picasso art - and deco soda bottles? I'm not sure either but I'm looking into it. [sm=thumbup1.gif] 

 Bob

 [  Portrait of Kahnweiler ~ Pablo Picasso ~ 1907  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Image below is  ...

 Cover of ... "The World Magazine" ~ January 20, *1907*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

*Regarding Early 1900s Bottle Technology ...*

 http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/OIExhibit/timeline.htm

 1902:  Owens completes work on the first fully successful automatic bottle-blowing machine, Machine Number Four.  On September 3, 1903, the Owens Bottle Machine Co. opens for business with the former machine's successor, Machine A. This marked the first use of the automatic bottle-making machine created by Michael J. Owens with the help of engineer William Emil Bock.

 1907:  The first machine-blown glass tumblers are produced.



 http://www.sha.org/bottle/glossary.htm

 The Owens machines, which used suction to draw the glass into the mold, were gradually overshadowed by more efficient "gob feeder" (gravity flow glass feeding) machines beginning in the late 1910s and 1920s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

More innovations of the early 1900s ...

 http://www.ideafinder.com/history/timeline/the1900s.htm

 I especially like Einstein's theory of relativity in 1905. But unfortunately I can't think of any logical manner to tie that in to early deco soda bottles. (LOL) [] 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

I did a quick search regarding the most innovative ideas/inventions of the early 1900s and by a landslide Henry Ford's 1903 Model A and his 1908 Model T were among the most heralded of the new century.   

 http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/ford.htm

 1903 Ford Motor Company is officially incorporated. Model A appears on the market in Detroit.

 1908 Ford begins manufacturing the famous Model T.

 ~ * ~

 I also found this which I thought was interesting ...

 http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventors/ford.htm

 "It is not, as sometimes suggested, the striking out of new ideas which is of the greatest importance in the history of science, but rather the accumulation of observations and experiments, the reasoning's based upon these, and the writings in which facts and reasoning's are presented to the worldâ€”by which a merely suggestive hypothesis becomes a vivifying theoryâ€”that really count in making history."

 ~ * ~

 The trickiest part of my research, which I plan to look into next, involves focusing in on a broader range of "Ideas" as to what made people tick in the early 1900s and possibly even find more information related to what seems like an overnight transition from the old to the new around 1905 to 1910. It's possible I will find some answers related to Expositions / World's Fairs because that seems to be where new ideas and innovations were often first introduced to the world. 

 I'll be back.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

Last but not least for the day ...

 A reoccurring focal point in my research regarding a possible start date (or at least what might have influenced it) of the so called deco era of soda bottles seems to center around ...

CIRCA 1905

 With the word "Circa" (circle / around) referring to ideas/inventions/events/etc. from about 1900 to about 1910

 The link opens to 1905 but can be changed to either earlier or later years ...

 http://www.historyorb.com/events/date/1905

 There might be clues here

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 24, 2013)

P.S.

 I just realized I posted the wrong link where I copy/pasted ...

 "It is not, as sometimes suggested, the striking out of new ideas which is of the greatest importance in the history of science, but rather the accumulation of observations and experiments, the reasoning's based upon these, and the writings in which facts and reasoning's are presented to the worldâ€”by which a merely suggestive hypothesis becomes a vivifying theoryâ€”that really count in making history." 

 Here's the correct link:

 http://darwin-online.org.uk/converted/Ancillary/1910_Judd_Comingofevolution_A34.html


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## Bass Assassin (Jul 24, 2013)

Times were definitely changing and the U.S. was the new leader/innovator and everyone else was just following what we did. Everyone was thinking "new" and "different" in the industrial segment.


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## OsiaBoyce (Jul 25, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Last but not least for the day ...
> 
> ...


 
 I just got to say it.

 1905? Was the peroid of Art Nouveau..........................Art Deco would not make an apperance for another 20 years or so.

 Picasso's work that you have shown is Cubism, which really has nothing to do with the Art Deco movement, which would still be years away.

 And..........................the Chrysler buildings style is the result of the Art Deco movement, not the originator of the style.

 Facts, I love em'. Like the late D.P. Moynihan said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

 Now please continue on your tangent.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> ... a possible start date (or at least what might have influenced it)
> 
> CIRCA 1905


 
 Transitions require time - They have a beginning - a middle - and an end! Based on my observations, the transition from straight-sided soda bottles to more elaborate soda bottles *began around 1905*, gained momentum in the teens, and peaked in the 1920s. I am merely attempting to explore this transition and try and discover what *influenced* it. I am not claiming the true deco period was in 1905, only that it's grassroots sprouted about that time.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> As far as pre-abm *deco* bottles gay-ola adopted a bottle design patented in 1914 in many cities. Bludwine used a hobble skirt bottle across the US as early as *1906* but that bottle was not design patented until 1918. One of the most elaborate deco sodas I have ever seen is the Kola-Mint with raised and sunken panels, horizontal rings, and the script trade mark embossed on high relief mint leaves. Every one is hand finished.


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## cowseatmaize (Jul 25, 2013)

Question. Was there ever an Eskimo, even on the base of an early Cliquot Club?
 I think the Pluto water had him during BIM but again, not really soda.


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## celerycola (Jul 25, 2013)

Show us a picture of your 1905 example bottle and explain how you dated it "1905".


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## celerycola (Jul 25, 2013)

FACT is just a four-letter word.


> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

 Celery ~

 Now I'm the one who is confused. Here's why ...

 I started this thread by stating I could not find examples of pre-abm / hand blown soda bottles with embossed *images*, nor examples that had *fancy* designs. And then you came along and posted the rebuttal above, indicating that pre-abm (hand finished) image/fancy designed soda bottles do in fact exist and were produced as early as *1906* and *1914*. And now you ask me to produce a picture of a 1905 bottle to support a claim that was suggested by you in the first place. That's why I used the word "*circa*," which was an approximate date in reference to your *1906* bottle. Do or do not your comments indicate that so called "deco-like" soda bottles existed prior to the introduction of bottle machines and were hand-blown (BIM) / hand-finished? Perhaps it is you who should produce a picture and not me. After all, I was only trying to follow up on something that you brought to our attention in the first place. As for *circa* 1905 being an approximate starting date for so called fancy design soda bottles that have swirls, etc;, based on the picture below, I'm thinking now that I might have to go back even earlier than that!

 Respectfully,

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

P.S. ~

 I honestly feel celerycola was saying that fancy designed (deco-like) soda bottles were in fact produced as early as 1906/1914 and were hand-blown and pre bottle machine prior to about 1910. But maybe this isn't true after all. Maybe I need to do some more research and try and find more accurate dates as to when fancy-designed soda bottles were initially introduced.

 Please know I am not trying to create controversy here. I merely put faith in celerycola's comments and now I don't know what to make of them.

 The only thing I am fairly confident about now is that the Illinois Glass Company ...     

 1906 Catalog ~ Nothing I can see that resembles a fancy/elaborately designed soda bottle. 

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco_1906.htm

 1920 Catalog ~ Nothing I can see that resembles a fancy/elaborately designed soda bottle.

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1920.htm

 1926 Catalog ~ Numerous fancy/elaborately designed soda bottles.

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

"*As far as pre-abm deco bottles gay-ola adopted a bottle design patented in 1914 in many cities.*"

 Gay-Ola Link:

 http://www.kocanola.com/History%20Tennessee%20Keen/Default.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

"*Bludwine used a hobble skirt bottle across the US as early as 1906 but that bottle was not design patented until 1918.*"

 Bludwine Link / Angelfire:

 http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/bludwine.html


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

"*One of the most elaborate deco sodas I have ever seen is the Kola-Mint with raised and sunken panels, horizontal rings, and the script trade mark embossed on high relief mint leaves.*"

 Kola Mint eBay Link:  

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Kola-Mint-Soda-Bottle-6oz-Thick-Green-Glass-Williamsport-Pa-/200933036835?nma=true&si=BE5m00Xb1uFSSPr3io6zqH6UuGE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

"*gay-ola adopted a bottle design patented in 1914*"

 Gay-Ola Patent Link:

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD51617?pg=PA1&dq=51,617+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FZLxUdn0K4XBqwGT3oDoBQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=51%2C617%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

Dennis:

 Despite how it might look, please know that I am not trying to ridicule or discredit you, and I apologize if it seems that way. Its just that you had me confused earlier and I thought I would post some pictures and information regarding the three bottles you recently mentioned. I will let individual members decide for themselves whether they agree or disagree with your descriptions. As for myself, I honestly do not feel that any of the three bottles falls into the category of what I would call a true deco soda bottle. However, I do agree the bottles are forerunners of the deco style and definitely had an influence on the deco designs. So please know that I appreciate and respect your contributions and will use them to broaden my research attempts. At the same time I hope you will respect my contributions as well. As it stands now, I plan to continue my research regarding ...

 1.  Circa / Pre-ABM / BIM / Hand-blown / Tooled / Crown / Deco-style Soda Bottles. (If they exist) ???

 And ...

 2.  When and what might have influenced the transition from common, straight-sided soda bottles to the more elaborately designed bottles that became extremely popular in the 1920s.

 Thanks to everyone who have participated in and/or are following this thread with interest.

 Respectfully,

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

This is for those who might be wondering what Deco/Art Deco is anyway? Pick your poison, but there are some definite common denominators.

 Deco / Art Deco ... Definitions from various sources:

 1.  A style of decorative art developed originally in the 1920s and marked chiefly by geometric motifs, curvilinear forms, and sharply defined outlines.

 2.   A style of design that was popular in the 1920s and 1930s marked by stylized forms and geometric designs adapted to mass production. 

 3.  A popular design movement dating from the 1920s. It is based on stylized geometric shapes such as stepped forms, chevrons, sunbursts, and curves and was considered quite modern at the time.

 4. Movement in design, interior decoration, and architecture in the 1920s and '30s in Europe and the U.S. The name derives from the Exposition Internationale Des Arts Dcoratifs et Industriels Modernes in Paris in 1925. Its products included both individually crafted luxury items and mass-produced wares, but, in either case, the intention was to create a sleek and antitraditional elegance that symbolized wealth and sophistication. Influenced by Art Nouveau, Bauhaus, Cubist, Native American, and Egyptian sources, the distinguishing features of the style are simple, clean shapes, often with a streamlined look; ornament that is geometric or stylized from representational forms; and unusually varied, often expensive materials, which frequently include man-made substances (plastics, especially Bakelite; vita-glass; and ferroconcrete) in addition to natural ones (jade, silver, ivory, obsidian, chrome, and rock crystal). Typical motifs included stylized animals, foliage, nude female figures, and sun rays. New York City's Rockefeller Center (especially its interiors supervised by Donald Deskey), the Chrysler Building by William Van Alen, and the Empire State Building by Shreve, Lamb & Harmon are the most monumental embodiments of Art Deco.

 5.  Descriptive term applied to a style of decorative arts that was widely disseminated in Europe and the USA during the 1920s and 1930s. Derived from the style made popular by the Exposition Internationale Des Arts D?coratifs et Industriels Modernes held in Paris in 1925, the term has been used only since the late 1960s, when there was a revival of interest in the decorative arts of the early 20th century. Since then the term 'Art Deco' has been applied to a wide variety of works produced during the inter-war years, and even to those of the German Bauhaus. But Art Deco was essentially of French origin, and the term should, therefore, be applied only to French works and those from countries directly influenced by France.

 6.   The term â€˜Art Decoâ€™ has been used to describe design and architecture from the 1910s, 1920s, and 1930s that was characterized by bright colours, geometric shapes, and decorative motifs deriving from a wide range of visual sources from the early years of the 20th century.

 7.    A further boost to the rather geometric structure of many Deco designs was given by Egyptian motifs with the opening of Tutankhamun's Tomb in 1922.

 8.  Art deco is characterized by long, thin forms, curving surfaces, and geometric patterning.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

I learned at least one thing from my recent definition search, which is that I never gave much thought to Egyptian influence on Deco designs. But now a beam of light has struck me with all kinds of new insights in relation to this. I especially like this new definition I found ...

 "The discovery of the tomb of the Pharaoh Tutankhamen in 1922 helped set in motion an enthusiasm for Egyptian & Aztec-influenced motifs in art, architecture & fashion: vibrant colors, pyramidal constructions & geometric designs. The resulting streamlined sleekness of form heralded the birth of the modern era, eventually lending itself appropriately to the design of skyscrapers & airplanes."

 Which helped me zero in on the bottle pictured below patented by Paul A. Ginter in 1925. The bottle strikes me as having a blend of both Egyptian as well as Aztec influence. It's my current favorite! 

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67455?pg=PA1&dq=67,455+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TrbxUdf0M4jq8wSCnIGIDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=67%2C455%20bottle&f=false

 Anyhoo, as I said earlier, I do not want not intend this to be a full study of Deco soda bottles but rather a search for Pre-ABM Deco-like bottles as well as a search for early influences. The 1922 Egyptian connection might not be as early as we would like, but at least it's something and makes total sense to me.

 Later,

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

Don't worry, I don't intend to bombard you with this stuff, but I do think it somewhat significant in relation to my ongoing research. Until now I didn't realize just how big of a deal the finding of King Tutankhamen's tomb was. It seems to have spread around the world like a wildfire.  

 Thanks

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Egyptian influence on 1920s fashion ... 

 http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug00/rekas/tut/king.htm

 Plus ...

 At the turn of the century, various styles in the decorative arts became popular, such as the Aesthetic, Arts and Crafts, and Art Nouveau movements. However, Egyptian motifs still appeared occasionally in the decorative arts, such as the geometric embellishment and palm leaves in Marie Zimmermann's unique jewelry and decorative work. 

 There would not be another major period of Egyptomania, as scholars now refer to these periods of obsession with Egyptian antiquities, until the discovery of King Tutankhamen's tomb in 1922, after which Egyptian influences pervaded modern culture. Egyptian motifs would become an integral part of the language of Art Deco, a style that would dominate the decorative arts until the mid-1930s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

Last for the day ...

*MUMMY?* ... (Lol) []


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## Bass Assassin (Jul 25, 2013)

I must say that does look like a mummy!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

Oops! I forget this "*Monkey Wrench*"

 How times and opinions change!

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-432525/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 25, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> How times and opinions change!


 
 I no longer see much of anything to suggest *Deco / Modernism / Egyptian * in Earl R. Dean's 1915 Coca Cola prototype bottle like I once believed. Now that I have the Norman L. Dean book, which is where I got this picture, I think Earl's design was based strictly on the cocoa pod and not much else. I did a quick search of the book and couldn't find the word *Deco* anywhere in it, but admit I could have missed it.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 26, 2013)

Digger Odell was right when he said ...

 "The art of the times is reflected in the designs."

 http://www.bottlebooks.com/Designer%20Sodas/designer_soda_bottles1920.htm

 ~ * ~

 I spent half the night researching and reading everything I could find related to the discovery of King Tutankhamen's tomb in 1922, and was astounded by what I found. But even more significant was realizing the monumental impact the discovery created worldwide, especially the influence it had on the world of art and design.

 Long story short ...

 Call it what you will, speculation, conjecture, assumption, educated guess, but I am prepared to stake my reputation on it and go out on a limb by stating that ...

 "Had there been no discovery of King Tut's tomb in 1922, there would have been no Art Deco movement in the United States and no Deco Soda Bottles!" 

 Of course, this is just my opinion, but if you study the era as closely as I did last night, I think you might be inclined to agree that 1920s Egyptianism changed the world. The following quotes and links are just the tip of the iceberg and there many, many other references one can access to do their own research and come up with their own conclusions.

 As for the Paris Exhibition of 1925, officially entitled the Exposition Internationale Des Arts DÃ©coratifs et Industriels Modernes ...

 It too was influenced by Egyptian art and artifacts. However, I must note that what happened in Paris in the 1920s didn't always transcend to the United States. Of course a lot of it did but not all of it. American's seem to have a way of taking things from other cultures and making them our own.  

 http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/a/the-1925-paris-exhibition/

 http://comestepbackintime.wordpress.com/tag/1925-paris-exposition/

 "Design influences [at the 1925 Paris Exposition] were drawn from a wide range of countries and their cultures including the Far and Middle East, the Americas and most notably Egypt. In 1922, the discovery by Howard Carter (1874-1939) of Tutankhamunâ€™s tomb in the Valley of the Kings sparked an interest, particularly among fashion designers, for Egyptian motifs.

 Lastly ...

 Using the link at the top of this page, go to Digger Odell's website and closely study the various design patents, think Egyptian as you scroll and click through the 1920s images, and see if you don't make some amazing discoveries of your own. 

 ~ * ~

 http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/tut.htm

 "The temptation to stop and peer inside at every moment was irresistible, and when, after about ten minutes' work, I had made a hole large enough to enable me to do so, I inserted an electric torch. An astonishing sight its light revealed, for there, within a yard of the doorway, stretching as far as one could see and blocking the entrance to the chamber, stood what to all appearances was a solid wall of gold."

 ~ * ~

 http://blog.library.si.edu/2009/11/tomb-of-king-tut-finally-opened-craze-for-egyptian-begins/#.UfJ9bNHn-1s

 "The discovery of King Tutâ€™s Tomb was one of the greatest archaeological finds ever uncovered, and as the unbelievably precious and beautiful artifacts were brought out, a craze for anything Egyptian captured the public imagination."

 ~ * ~

 http://www.customessaymeister.com/customessays/Archaeology/8163.htm

 "The Egyptian culture which had been bottled up for so long was able to be explored. The architecture and other art found within and part of the tomb created a significant impression on the artistic world. The art would be admired and copied in today's society, with many paintings and sculptures crafted like those found in Tutankhamen's tomb as well as copied architecture."

 "The discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamen also played a role in media development. During the discovery of the hidden and sealed tomb, media arts was taking off as well. The discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb was one of the first major events to be explored in depth and photographed constantly by the media. This event was revealed first hand to the people of the world, with photographs and printed journal entries."

 "Ironically, King Tutankhamen is probably the most well-known pharaoh of Ancient Egypt because of the valuable treasures found within his tomb, instead of noted for a significant rule. With the discovery of King Tutankhamen's tomb, the concealed past of Ancient Egypt was finally able to be explored. By observing the artifacts, architecture, and paintings, professionals were able to obtain information about the ancient society."

 ~ * ~

 King Tut and Jumbo the elephant. Both in the same magazine. (Remember the "Jumbo" soda bottle I posted earlier?)

 http://www.history-magazine.com/HM_Sample.pdf

 ~ * ~

 Later Alligators

 Or should I say ...

 After While Crocodiles

 (I'm not sure if their are Alligators in the Nile River).

 Bob 

 ~ * ~  

 Here is my new favorite deco soda bottle. If it was ever produced and one can be found in near mint condition, I am prepared to pay top-dollar for one. Thanks.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 26, 2013)

Guess who?


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## bottleopop (Jul 28, 2013)

SODAPOPBOB -

 That 79178 bottle was produced as Pyramid Beverages, Inc. in Newport News, VA.
 It is a 7oz bottle.


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## lblackvelvet (Jul 28, 2013)

Hello , I have a bottle that is close to that design, Here is a picture of it. I found your information very interesting. Thanks,


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 28, 2013)

bop ~

 Thanks for the information.

 "It never rains but when it does it pours"

 Meaning ...

 Ibv ~

 That's the one! 

 Please tell us ...

 1. All the embossing's - Makers Marks ~ Symbols ~ Numbers ~ Letters ~ Codes
 2. Is it for sale?
 3. If so, please describe condition.

 Gracias' Amigos [sm=thumbup.gif]

 Bob


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## lblackvelvet (Jul 28, 2013)

Hi Bob,  Here is some info. 

 7 oz. clear bottle
 Pyramid Beverages Inc.
 Lasting Quality  
 All flavors 
 Newport News, Va.
 Pat. Applied for
  Heel- 4131 E  / G 29   
  A few tiny flea bites /  Very little case wear
  I would say the bottle is in very good condition/  I can try to take some better pic's if you want me too?


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## lblackvelvet (Jul 28, 2013)

Hi Bob,  Here is another bottle that has some similar markings to one of the other drawings you posted.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 28, 2013)

Ibv ~

 Thanks for the information. The pyramid bottle was designed by Otis K. Brown and made by the Graham Glass Company in 1929. Based on your picture it looks to be in great shape. Please PM me if your are interested in selling it and for how much?

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD79178?pg=PA1&dq=79178+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iLT1UYjnPJHe8ASr94HoAg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=79178%20bottle&f=false

 Thanks

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 I'm still doing research on various aspects of deco soda bottles, starting with this timeline I put together based on the bottle patents from Digger Odell's website. I realize the count does include every bottle ever patented in that period, but it gives us a pretty good idea of the highs and lows with the peak in *1925*.

 (To be continued)


 1915 = 1
 1916 = 3
 1917 = 2
 1918 = 1 ... WWI Ends
 1919 = 0
 1920 = 4 ... Prohibition Begins
 1921 = 4
 1922 = 4 ... King Tut's Tomb Discovered (11 year project to 1933)  
 1923 = 16
 1924 = 26
 1925 = 58 . Paris Exposition
 1926 = 50
 1927 = 28
 1929 = 21 . Great Depression Begins
 1930 = 6
 1931 = 4
 1932 = 7
 1933 = 1 ... Prohibition Ends
 1934 = 2
 1935 = 4
 1936 = 2 ... Great Depression Ends
 1937 = 2
 1938 = 2
 1939 = 4
 1940 = 4
 1941 = 0 ... WWII Begins
 1942 = 1
 1943 = 0
 1944 = 1
 1945 = 0 ... WWII Ends
 1946 = 1
 1947 = 0
 1948 = 0
 1949 = 1


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 29, 2013)

(Continued)

 Please Note:  This is an examination only and not a definitive conclusion

 I am still primarily focused on ...

 1.  Early Deco Soda Bottle Designs.
 2.  When, who, and what influenced them?

 Note: The Paris Exposition, said to be the birthplace of Deco, opened in April of 1925 and closed in October of 1925.

 Using Digger Odell's Deco Bottle website again, I came up with the following ...

 Of the approximately 58 bottle designs patented in 1925 (Peak period) ... 

 47 of them were "filed prior to April,"  which is when the Paris Exposition opened. And 16 of those were filed sometime in late 1924.

 (I haven't overlooked the fact that 50 designs were patented in 1926. I am merely focusing on the majority rule).

 Design patents filed sometime in 1924 = 16

 Design patents filed in 1925:

 January = 12
 February = 12
 March = 7
 April = 7 ... Paris Exposition Opens
 May = 4
 June = 2
 July = 0
 August = 0
 September = 1
 October = 3 ... Paris Exposition Closes
 November = 0
 December = 0

 Designs patented in 1925:

 January = 1
 February = 1
 March = 4
 April = 5 ... Paris Exposition Opens
 May = 18
 June = 11
 July = 1
 August = 2
 September = 1
 October = 2 ... Paris Exposition Closes
 November = 2
 December = 5

 Additionally ...

 Paris Exposition: April to October of 1925.

 The United States did not attend!

 http://xrl.us/bpjnko

 "Germany and the USA were notable absentees. Germany, as the main aggressor in the First World War and the greatest threat to French supremacy in the decorative arts, was sent an invitation too late to organize a major display. The USA declined to participate on the grounds that 'there was no modern design in America'."

 http://www.answers.com/topic/paris-exposition-des-arts-d-coratifs-et-industriels-modernes

 The Paris Exposition was proposed as early as 1914 but postponed due to the outbreak of WWI.

 ~ * ~

 Based on my current observations, its starting to appear as if the Paris Exposition had very little influence on deco soda bottles in the United States. Its also starting to look as if whatever influenced the deco soda bottle trend in the United States seemed to have happened almost overnight. Notice there were only about 19 patents between about 1915 and 1922. And then between about 1923 and 1926 the trend seems to have exploded, and starting to taper off again in about 1927. 

 (To be continued)

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 29, 2013)

P.S ~

 The following two pictures are a glimpse into upcoming examinations I plan on doing ...

*The Chrysler building in New York city ... claimed by many to be one of the most iconic symbols of the deco era in the United States.

 Groundbreaking in 1928 ~ Completion in 1930*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 29, 2013)

*Original Lobby / Elevator (one of eight) in the Chrysler building ... *


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## lblackvelvet (Jul 29, 2013)

Hello Bob, Here is another picture of the bottle taken outside.  Thanks ,  Kevin...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 30, 2013)

Kevin ~

 Thanks for the great pictures. I am interested in purchasing the bottle if available.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 (Continued)

  It was during the course of my research on deco soda bottles of the 1920s, with the number one question being; "Where did the designers get their inspiration?" that it dawned on me how artist and designers of that era did not have the Internet as we do today but rather had to rely on other sources for their various influences. So with this in mind I flashed back to the 1920s and took a look around to see what some of those other sources might have been and came up with the following ...

 1. Association with other artist, designers, and art institutions.
 2. Books, newspapers, magazines and various journals.
 3. Museums and libraries.
 4. Radio
 5. Silent movies and newsreels. (The first "Talkie" was in 1927).
 6. Fashion.
 7. Architecture.
 8. Study of previously produced art and works of other artist and designers.
 9. Etc.

 But definitely nothing like the information we have available at our fingertips today, including television and the Internet!

 So with this said, where did bottle designer George N. Mas of Lynchburg, Virginia get his inspiration for bottle patent number 65,590 pictured below that was filed on June 29, 1923 and patented on September 9, 1924? By the way, George N. Mas is described on Digger Odell's site as ...

 "Among the more prominent of the 1920s [designers]."

 Even though I personally see a distinct similarity between Mas' design and the upper portion of the Chrysler building, the bottle design proceeded the Chrysler building by about five years. But then again, perhaps there is no similarity between the two at all and Mas' design is nothing more than that of drooping drapery. After all, the design on Mas' bottle curves downwards whereas the design on the upper portion of the Chrysler building curves upwards.

 Speaking of the Chrysler building again, the upper exterior portion has been described as ...

 "The most magical skyscraper, however, must be the Chrysler Building (1930) in Manhattan. With an internal steel skeleton, it is still the tallest brick building in the world.  The lobbies, stairways and elevators are masterpieces of craftsmanship, with *Egyptian* motifs stylized in colored marbles, inlaid brass and exotic woods. The top exterior is an interpretation of the classic *Egyptian* inspired Art Deco theme of the sun and its dispersing rays."

 "From street level to the tip of its spire, the Chrysler building is an exuberant expression of the art deco style. The fanciful crown is a *pyramidal* succession of arcs and triangular windows decked in stainless steel that shines brilliantly in the sun."

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Bottle Patent 65,590 ~ F 1923- P 1924 ~ George N. Mas 

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD65590?pg=PA2&dq=65,590+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QWH0UY_EKY-C9QSPxIFY&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=65%2C590%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 30, 2013)

The upper exterior of the Chrysler building ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 30, 2013)

Next examination ... 

 Ancient Egyptian *bottles* ...


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## 2find4me (Jul 30, 2013)

Does a crown top beer count?  Not sure if it is really hand blown: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEAT-Handblown-ANHEUSER-BUSCH-w-EAGLE-Budweiser-Beer-Bottle-NORFOLK-VA-Branch-/380588130830?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589cd2020e&nma=true&si=EsOM9dxanXvSvvLVpEqLZgnOQZU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 30, 2013)

2f4m ~

 Some might object to a beer bottle on a soda bottle thread, but I see no real harm in it. I'm not sure if it's hand blown either, but comparing it to the last bottle on this link, which is described as a "tooled crown," it appears to be the same bottle. Nice bottle irregardless and cool image of an eagle. I didn't realize Anheuser-Busch made such a variety of bottles over the years. Check'em out.

 Thanks for sharing.

 Bob

 http://brucemobley.com/beerbottlelibrary/mo/stlouis/anheuser.htm


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## lblackvelvet (Jul 30, 2013)

Hello Bob,    I sent you a couple PM'S about the Pyramid bottle, Did you receive them ?   And for the Anheuser, I have the same bottle, Mine is blown and the top is tooled from Norfolk as well.  Nice bottle !!!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

Kevin ~

 I did not receive your PM but know it's working because I got one from another member just the other day.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

P.S.

 Kevin ~

 I just sent you a PM with my personal email address. Please let me know if you did not receive it.

 Thanks

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> ... where did bottle designer George N. Mas of Lynchburg, Virginia get the inspiration for bottle patent number 65,590?


 

 While conducting an examination of the 'drooping pattern' on the George N. Mas' bottle patent pictured above, I discovered a similar pattern on the two-handled glass jar pictured below. The jar is said to be made of glass and Egyptian from circa 1390-1352 .B.C. 

 King Tutankhamen's reign is said to have been ...

 New Kingdom
 Dynasty 18
 1336 to 1327 B.C.

 The pattern originated prior to King Tutankhamen's reign and was likely still popular in the sixteen years between about 1336 B.C. and 1352 B.C. But irregardless of the exact timeline, the pattern is said to be ancient Egyptian and is a typical Egyptian motif from the period. Egyptian artifacts like the two-handled glass jar were well known, documented, and on display in museums and art journals by the time George Mas came along and started designing bottles in the 1920s. And even though we will likely never know for certain where George Mas got the inspiration for his bottle, I believe there is a possibility he got it from studying ancient Egyptian art, especially ancient Egyptian *glass*.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Egyptian Malqata Glasswear:

 http://metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/548611?rpp=20&pg=1&gallerynos=119&ft=*&what=Glass&pos=9

 http://metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections?&ft=*&gallerynos=119&what=Glass&pg=1

 (To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB


 

 Additional references to ancient Egyptian glass and bottles ...

 " More significant was the discovery during the 1920s of a delicate glass sceptre, which was among the legendary treasures of Tutankhamoun."

 http://www.italmole.com/history_from_glass.htm

 ~ * ~

 Glass / King Tut's Tomb

 http://blog.cmog.org/2012/04/03/glass-of-king-tut-dr-brills-research-on-the-ancient-egyptian-glass-from-tutankhamuns-tomb/

 ~ * ~

 Ancient Egyptian Glass Factory

 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/21/science/21glas.html?_r=0

 ~ * ~

 Egyptian Bottles: (This is where I got the previously posted back & white image. Notice that bottle #1 is described as being made of glass).

 http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-1/Bottle.html#.UfUeBNHn-1t

 http://www.bible-history.com/ibh/Egyptian+Customs/Bottles/Bottles+and+Vases 

 Bob

 (To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm hoping this post will conclude my examination of early Deco Soda Bottles and what might have influenced them. I apologize for digging deeper into the subject than originally intended, but as it sometimes happens I get carried away with my research, especially when I feel I am hot on the trail of something significant. In any event, I still stand on the belief that had King Tutankhamen's tomb not been discovered in 1922, which required eleven years to fully excavate through 1933, that there would have been no art deco movement in the United States, at least not as we know it today. 

 I fully realize that not every deco soda bottle contains elements of Egyptian influence, but I believe that many of them do. Take for example the designs of Paul A. Ginter, who Digger Odell included among the more prominent designers of the 1920s. I found no less than about thirty of Paul's designs, almost a third of which appear to me as having a distinct Egyptian look. But just as interesting are the "filed for" dates on the patents. Every one the the nine listed below were filed "prior" to the Paris Exposition which ran from April to October of 1925. And because of the pre-exposition filing dates, it seems to me that Paul Ginter did not acquire his inspiration from the Paris Exposition but rather from someplace else - with that "someplace else" being, in my opinion, directly related to the discovery of King Tut's tomb in 1922. As I mentioned earlier, the discovery of Tut's tomb spread around the world like wildfire and seemed to have influenced almost every aspect of life in that time period between about early 1923 and 1933. Based on the numerous accounts I have read, the discovery was considered "phenomenal" for the times.

 As I have said before, this, of course, is just my opinion and I realize that others have their own opinions which I acknowledge and respect.

 Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to and/or has been following this thread with interest. It has been a total blast for me!

 Bob                   

 ~ * ~

 Egyptian Art Deco:

 http://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Motifs-Style-Pictorial-Archive/dp/0486484467

 ~ * ~

 Egyptian Revival:

 http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/erev/hd_erev.htm

 "There would not be another major period of Egyptomania, as scholars now refer to these periods of obsession with Egyptian antiquities, until the discovery of King Tutankhamun's tomb in 1922, after which Egyptian influences pervaded modern culture. Egyptian motifs would become an integral part of the language of Art Deco, a style that would dominate the decorative arts until the mid-1930s."

 ~ * ~

 Selected Paul A. Ginter bottle patents that I feel were Egyptian inspired ...

 1. Filed January 1925 ~ Patented March 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents?id=BVJsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 2. Filed January 1925 ~ Patented March 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD66847?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LSr5Ue-MGYjO9AS02ICwDQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 3. Filed January 1925 ~ Patented April 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67025?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LSr5Ue-MGYjO9AS02ICwDQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 4. Filed March 1925 ~ Patented June 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67455?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LSr5Ue-MGYjO9AS02ICwDQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 5. Filed February 1925 ~ Patented May 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67277?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LSr5Ue-MGYjO9AS02ICwDQ&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 6. Filed January 1925 ~ Patented April 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67024?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uCv5UcWgJYaE9gSoj4DwBQ&ved=0CDgQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 7. Filed January 1925 ~ Patented March 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD66846?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uCv5UcWgJYaE9gSoj4DwBQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 8. Filed February 1925 ~ Patented May 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67278?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uCv5UcWgJYaE9gSoj4DwBQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 9. Filed March 1925 ~ Patented June 1925 

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD67456?pg=PA2&dq=Paul+A+Ginter+Design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=piz5UaqYFJHa9ATtioCwCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=Paul%20A%20Ginter%20Design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 ~ * ~

 Plus ...

 A couple of original 1923 magazine / newspaper accounts related to the discovery of King Tut's tomb. This is the kind of stuff most people had to rely on for pictures and updates as the eleven year excavation progressed. (Click on images or arrow > scroll for enlargements).

  National Geographic / May 1923 Original Photographs

 http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/1923/05/tut-discovery/williams-photography

 ~ * ~

 New York Times / February 11, 1923 Original Photographs

 http://mitchellarchives.com/the-treasures-of-king-tut.htm 

*Paul A. Ginter bottle patent ~ #7 above ~ Filed January 1925 ~ Patented March 1925 ~ Both dates before the Paris Exposition*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Be sure and read the captions at the bottom of each of the 1923 National Geographic pictures. They are easy to miss if you don't scroll the page enough to expose them.

 National Geographic / May 1923 Original Photographs 

 http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/1923/05/tut-discovery/williams-photography


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

*Last but not least ...*

 King Tutankhamen's so called death mask - considered to be the most amazing and *influential* item (of the 5,398) that were excavated from the tomb ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

Final P.S.

 In case you were wondering ...

 Based on various sources, King Tutankhamen's entire treasure is currently worth an estimated one-billion dollars ... Yep! That's the same as one-thousand million!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 31, 2013)

Oops / Sorry ... I totally forgot this one!

 Bottle / Vase / Jug / Earthenware / Glass / With a single handle  ... ???

 Is this an example of one of the worlds first pre-abm deco soda bottles?  (Lol) []

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 2, 2013)

*Pepsi-Cola / Deco Bottle / eBay / $1,400.00*

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/151092052726?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 2, 2013)

*Design Patent 66,591 
 February 10, 1925
 Lee J. Taylor*


 https://www.google.com/patents/USD66591?pg=PA1&dq=66,591+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dcX7UZHmEcyoqQHA5IH4Ag&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=66%2C591%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 2, 2013)

*Close up comparison ...*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 2, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB


 
*Egyptian Water Symbols / Hieroglyphs*


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## celerycola (Aug 3, 2013)

Bob,

 Why would I feel ridiculed or discredited? I base my comments on forty-five years of collecting and researching soda bottles and their history. I have been an active member of bottle clubs from New York to California and have probably attended five hundred bottle shows in that time. I assure you that I have looked at every one of the hundreds of soda bottles at each show, totaling many thousands in the time I've been collecting. I've published six books based on my research and contributed to a dozen or more. I have read and re-read the hundred plus books on my shelf concerning soft drink bottles and their history. A google search is no substitute for getting out to bottle shows and reading the substantial amount of published research available. If your only sources are online you can only view the tip of the iceberg of what information is available.

 You didn't acknowledge my post stating the 1906 date for the hobbleskirt Bludwine bottle. Instead you came up with a different date without identifying what bottle you dated to that year, so I asked for more information. Of the three bottles I referenced, two(Bludwine and Gay-Ola) were considered to have sufficient DECOrative elements to receive protection under Federal Patent Laws for their design. If the United States Government declares a bottle to be DECOrative then that is good enough for me. The third bottle, the Kola-Mint, has raised and scalloped panels, horizontal lines, high relief Mint Leaf, and script trademark covering ninety per cent of the bottle. If that is not sufficient to convince you then you should get a copy of the Deco Soda Bottles book where all three are listed. I know Brian applied his years of experience collecting DECOrative soda bottle to writing his book. Until someone else produces a more comprehensive tome on DECOrative sodas it looks like Brians book is the authority. 

 You may have noticed I refer to DECOrative soda bottles rather than Art Deco. I haven't taken enough art history courses to warrant a degree in the subject but I do have to agree with the Sage of Chinquapin Falls who kindly reminds us that Art Deco began in the 1920's, years after DECOrative soda bottles appeared. To honestly confuse the two, or deliberately combine them, to the horror of Art History Professors everywhere, is beyond oversimplifying, it is plain wrong.

 I think it is fair for everyone to evaluate a bottle for themselves whether it qualifies as DECOrative or not. Just as we all choose what criteria we use in deciding what to collect. Since a majority of collectors are not joining us here online whatever rules are legislated will carry no weight with collectors at large.

 I apologize for my delayed response: I was attending bottle shows in New Hampshire and Alabama, visiting bottle collecting friends and hunting bottles in twelve states.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Dennis:
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 3, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> Of the three bottles I referenced, two (Bludwine and Gay-Ola) were considered to have sufficient DECOrative elements to receive protection under Federal Patent Laws for their design. If the United States Government declares a bottle to be DECOrative then that is good enough for me.
> 
> I think it is fair for everyone to evaluate a bottle for themselves whether it qualifies as DECOrative or not.


 
 Celerycola / Dennis:

 I don't mean this to sound like I'm being facetious because I'm not. Nor am I challenging anyone's credentials, their years of experience, or anything of the sort. But it does sound to me as if you're saying that any soda bottle which you describe as DECOaritive is basically a loose form of a Deco Soda Bottle irregardless of when it was patented and/or produced just as long as it is decorated with fancy embossing. It also sounds to me as if you are saying it is in the eye of the beholder to determine what bottles are considered Deco bottles and what aren't. And if this is in fact what you are saying or even insinuating, then I guess I need to go back to square one and re-research the definition of Art Deco and Deco. 

 As for the word DECOrative / decorative in relation to U.S. bottle patents, the most often used word I am familiar with is "Ornamental," which can refer to fancy embossing as well as a unique shape. I'm not saying the word "decorative" doesn't exist among U.S. bottle patent terminology, but if it does I believe it's far and few between and a term I have not seen used. 

 The patent text below is for a Gay-Ola-style of bottle which I have highlighted the word "ornamental." Every one of the Paul A. Ginter bottles that I posted links to also use the word ornamental, and I have seen the same word used as far back as 1902.  

 Link: 

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD51617?pg=PA1&dq=51,617+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FZLxUdn0K4XBqwGT3oDoBQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=51%2C617%20bottle&f=false

 I may not understand exactly what you are trying to say or the point you are trying to make, (maybe we're actually saying the same thing and agreeing, I'm not sure) but I do know what I'm trying to say and the point I'm trying to make, which is ...

 It is my opinion that pre-abm (circa pre-1910) soda bottles with fancy embossing and/or a unique shape were predecessors of the Deco soda bottle era, but feel deco soda bottles had their true beginning around 1923 and was hugely influenced by the discovery of King Tut's tomb in Egypt in 1922. 

 Respectfully,

 Bob

 ~ * ~ 

 The term "Ornamental" on U.S. bottle patents goes back at least as early as 1902, but I do not feel that all ornamental soda bottles are Deco soda bottles!


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 3, 2013)

Hello Bob,  Have you received my e-mails?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 4, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  lblackvelvet
> 
> Hello Bob,  Have you received my e-mails?


 
 Nope! 

 I'm not sure what the problem is. Please try another PM

 Thanks

 Bob


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 4, 2013)

I have tried your personal e-mail Address and just sent another PM.?  I don't know why you are not getting them.  My e-mail is lblackvelvet@yahoo.com   Maybe you can send me a e-mail and I can reply to it?  Thanks....  Kevin..


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 4, 2013)

P.S.

 Kevin:

 I just thought of something. 

 If you happen to be using a Mac computer I cannot receive Mac emails. I'm not sure why but I can't!

 Bob


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 4, 2013)

Hi Bob, Received your e-mail, Sent you my phone # !!


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2013)

Sent you an email as well Bob, I have Kevin's contact info for you...


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 4, 2013)

Thanks Jim, I don't know why we can't connect. I have tried all week with no luck !


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## celerycola (Aug 4, 2013)

Any bottle with DECOrative elements is a DECO bottle. If you disagree with the published information regarding DECO sodas please let us know where you disagree and provide us some alternative bottle related sources before we all throw our books into the trash.

 If you believe DECO is the same as Art Deco then the 1915 Coke bottle does not fall into the category as it predates the Art Deco era. Continuing your line of reasoning any soda bottle not influenced by Eqyptian design is not DECO. 




> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## T D (Aug 4, 2013)

Bob.  Read the original title of your thread.  This could have been a really good thread with forum members contributing pictures of early crown top NON STRAIGHT SIDED bottles and discussion about these bottles.  Instead you overloaded it with off topic information.  It as re- morphed into a completely different animal.  How about we just simplify it to after straight sided crown top sodas?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 4, 2013)

For those who might be wondering ...

 With Jim/epackage assisting as middleman, Iblackvelvet/Kevin and I finally connected on the phone today and made arrangements for me to purchase the pyramid soda bottle. Kevin and I agreed not to disclose the selling price but we are both happy with the transaction. We still haven't figured out what caused the email problem and possibly never will.  My thanks goes out to Jim for his invaluable help in making the connection possible. 

 Bob


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## epackage (Aug 4, 2013)

Happy to hear it worked out...[]


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## T D (Aug 4, 2013)

[/quote]


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## OsiaBoyce (Aug 4, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> Bob,
> 
> ...


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl5dZxA-rZY

 I'm stunned, we are in the presence of greatness. Where as Gahndi said "...............our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world......." I see where Bob is changing long standing definitions. Then I guess I am reminded of what Humpty Dumpty said in Lewis Carrols 'Through The Looking Glass', which is, "When I use a word it means what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."

 Has anyone let Brian Wade in on this change? When he wrote the book 'Deco Soda Bottles' and included on page -2- the following: 'A deco soda bottle is defined here as "a fancy embossed crowntop soda bottle from the 1920s and 30s"..................................popularity during theArt Deco peroid  and their frequent use of Art Deco design features.'

 He continues at the bottom of said page '...............a deco bottle is NOT NESSARILY Art Deco in design.'

 Now I'm being led to belive that the excavation of King Tuts tomb gave way to the Art Deco movement or was at least the basis of bottle designs of the 20s & 30s.

 Like I said, I'm stunned.....................more than words can describe.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 5, 2013)

Celerycola ~

 Thank you for clarifying your position when you said ...

 "Any bottle with DECOrative elements is a DECO bottle."

 Even though I do not agree with your position, (which I feel is too broad and encompassing) I acknowledge and respect it. As for my view on the subject, I honestly feel the term Deco is more specifically connected with the 1920s and 1930s than it is to anything related to the teens or pre-teens. To say that any decorative bottle is a deco bottle would have to include the swirl-embossed bottle pictured below, and that particular bottle doesn't even have a crown closure. 

 I never said every soda bottle of the 1920s-30s was Egyptian influenced, but I did say that "many" of them were. I also said that had there been no discovery of King Tut's tomb in 1922 that the so called Art Deco movement in the United States, as well as the influence it had on Deco soda bottles, would not have occurred, at least not as we know it today. I still believe this wholeheartedly! 

 I also feel any book devoted to the study of Deco soda bottles that does not include at least a cursory examination of the Egyptian influence on the bottles of that era is an incomplete work that is missing an essential aspect as to what some of the major influences were. 

 ~ * ~

 T D ~

 As for the title and subject matter of this thread, among other things, on page one I said ...

 "I am seeking help to find examples of circa 1900 to circa 1910 Non-ABM Crown soda bottles that have ... 

 1. Fancy embossing (diamond-cut, etc) like the later (1920s) deco/designer bottles. 
 2. An embossed pictorial image like some of the earlier Hutch's."

 Although I might not have been 100% specific at the time as to my intentions for this thread, I did say I was interested in finding soda bottles like the 1920s deco soda bottles. I agree this might not have been clear to everyone but it was clear to me even if I failed to elaborate on it. Plus, we all know that some threads, especially multi-paged threads, have a way of starting out on one subject and then developing into something more encompassing. Personally I see no harm in transitional research with it's findings and subsequent discussions just as long as the end result is an informative one which broadens our knowledge of the entire soda bottle spectrum.

 ~ * ~

 Osia ~

 Can you imagine what the reaction would be if I listed the bottle pictured below on eBay and described it as a late 1800s Deco soda bottle? I can't speak for others but I really don't think that dog would hunt. If you choose to believe that any decorative bottle is a Deco bottle, that's your prerogative. As for myself, I'm sticking with the general dictionary definition ...

 DECÂ·o

 Of, pertaining to, or suggestive of art deco design: 

 Noun  
 A style of design that was popular in the 1920s and 1930s; marked by stylized forms and geometric designs adapted to mass production.  

 WordNetÂ® 3.0, Â© 2006 by Princeton University. 

 ~ * ~ 


 If any and all decorated bottles are Deco bottles, then I suppose that makes these "ornamental" bottles from 1902-1903 and 1910-1911 Deco bottles as well ...

 1902-1903

 https://www.google.com/patents?id=wV9wAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 1910-1911

 https://www.google.com/patents?id=FrN9AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 ~ * ~

 I'm not trying to rewrite history, I'm just trying to clarify a few things and add to it for the benefit of all bottle collectors. I encourage others to do their own research and reach their own conclusions and not rely on every opinion presented here. 

 Respectfully,

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Accurate or inaccurate?

*Description:

 Late 1800s Deco Soda Bottle*

 (I say inaccurate!)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 5, 2013)

For those interested in doing their own research regarding the various influences on Art Deco and Deco, here's another person's view to help get you started ...

 ~ * ~

 Please click and read pages 1 through 6 

 http://architecture.about.com/od/artdeco/ss/artdeco.htm

 From Page 1 ... 

 "But most of all, Art Deco expressed excitement over a stunning archeological find in Egypt."

 From Page 3 ... 

 "Ancient Egyptian art told stories. Highly stylized icons had symbolic meanings."

 "Art Deco architects often lavished their buildings with symbolic images."

 From Page 4 ...

 "The Terra-cotta facing and the strong vertical bands are typical Art Deco features borrowed from antiquity. Other characteristics of the style include zigzag designs, echoing patterns and vivid colors that would delight the slumbering Egyptian king."

 From Page 5 ...

 "When Howard Carter opened the tomb of the ancient Egyptian King Tutankhamen, the world was dazzled by the brilliance of the treasure."

 "But, Art Deco design is about more than color and ornamental patterns. The very shape of these buildings expresses a fascination for orderly forms and primitive architecture. The early Art Deco skyscrapers suggest Egyptian or Assyrian pyramids with terraced steps rising to the top. "

 From Page 6 ...

 "Skyscrapers built during the 1920s and early 1930s may not have the brilliant colors or zigzag designs we associate with the Art Deco style. However, these buildings often took on a distinctive Art Deco shape: The ziggurat. 
 A ziggurat is a terraced pyramid with each story smaller than the one below it. Art Deco skyscrapers may have complex groupings of rectangles or trapezoids. Sometimes two contrasting materials are used to create subtle bands of color, a strong sense of line, or the illusion of pillars. The logical progression of steps and the rhythmical repetition of shapes suggest ancient architecture, yet also celebrate a new, technological era. 

 Art Deco is an eclectic style -- a conglomeration of influences from many cultures and historic periods. It's easy to overlook the Egyptian elements in the design of a posh theater or a streamlined diner. But the tomblike shape of twentieth century "ziggurats" make it clear that the world was in a tizzy over King Tut."

  ~ * ~

 Meet Jackie Craven

 http://architecture.about.com/bio/Jackie-Craven-3819.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 5, 2013)

P.S.

 I have nothing further to add to this thread. I'm sure everyone knows by now where I stand.

 Thanks again to everyone for your interest and participation. 

 Sodabottlebob


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## epackage (Aug 5, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> For those interested in doing their own research regarding the various influences on Art Deco and Deco, here's another person's view to help get you started ...
> 
> ...


 Some interesting stuff in this post Bob, I had never considered the influence and I want to tell you I'm impressed by the research you did here. I would consider the George Eagle a 'Geometric' design and not a Deco bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 6, 2013)

Jim / epackage:

 Thanks for the compliment - I'm glad you found this thread interesting. As for the Egyptian influence on Art Deco I keep referring to, I'm not alone in this respect and there are many others who feel the same way, some of which can be reviewed by accessing the links below. I thought it might also interest you to spotlight the bottle patent pictured below that was patented in 1925 by Jerome P. Curran. If you open the link to the patent you will discover that Curran was an assignor to The American Bottle Company of Toledo, Ohio. The interesting thing about this is that Paul A. Ginter, (who was the designer of the nine bottle patents I posted links to on page 4, post #69) was also an assignor to The American Bottle Company. It's starting to look as if The American Bottle Company was a major contributor to Egyptian influenced Deco soda bottles of the 1920s. Compare some of the Egyptian motifs on the book cover (image to follow on next page) to some of the patterns on Curran's bottle patent.

 Thanks again for helping to put me in contact with Kevin. I can't wait to receive the pyramid bottle and might even start collecting Egyptian influenced Deco's.

 For a guy who stated earlier that he didn't have anything more to contribute to this discussion, I sure said a mouthful! Oh well, I guess that's just my nature. []

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 [ Pictured below ]

 Bottle Patent 66,789
 J.P. Curran ~ Assignor to the American Bottle Company of Toledo, Ohio
 Filed January 1925
 Patented March 1925

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD66789?pg=PA1&dq=66,789+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hwcBUr_7HYnCywGs8IGYDg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=66%2C789%20bottle&f=false

 American Bottle Company:

 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/

 A.B.CO ... American Bottle Company (1905-1929). Chicago, Illinois (office â€“ 1905-1916); Toledo, Ohio (office â€“ 1916-1929).  Glass plants were located at Streator, Illinois;  Newark, Ohio;  Belleville, Illinois;  Massillon, Ohio  &  Wooster, Ohio.  The American Bottle Company was purchased by Owens Bottle Machine Company in 1916 (with some of the plants being closed soon afterwards) but the Streator and Newark plants continued to operate under the American Bottle Co. Name until 1929, when they became part of the merger that resulted in Owens-Illinois Glass Company. (For Streator and Newark plant marks from 1916 to 1929, see â€œ17Nâ€ and â€œ16Sâ€ entries). Most, if not all, of the â€œABâ€, â€œAB CO.â€ and â€œA.B.CO.â€ marked bottles are believed to date between 1905 and 1916. However, it is possible that some bottles with these markings might date between 1916 and 1929, but, if so, could only have been made at either the Streator or Newark plants.

 ~ * ~

 "Egyptian style was a major influence on Art Deco ..."

 http://books.google.com/books?id=0H3v0nPk1V4C&pg=PA136&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=Cpas7sb04VwC&pg=PA29&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=mWkHtxMt8s0C&pg=PA134&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=wRmaUEb1nzgC&pg=PA5&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-_0AUrXeH6qQyQHV44CwBw&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=4lFgTnlx1iIC&pg=PA68&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3gABUpmdJIOHygGaxYDABQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=LpQBdsH12acC&pg=PA17&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WgEBUufCBZCgyAGvkYGQAw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=Zfw4HQTG3RYC&pg=PA127&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WgEBUufCBZCgyAGvkYGQAw&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=N62mWymH8v4C&pg=PT106&dq=egyptian+art+deco&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5gIBUpCYCO-CyAGZ-YCgDQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjge#v=onepage&q=egyptian%20art%20deco&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 6, 2013)

Book: 

 Dover Publications ~ 2012

 http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Egyptian-Motifs-Art-Deco-Style-Dover-Publications-Inc/9780486484464


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## Plumbata (Aug 6, 2013)

Interesting stuff.

 There is no doubt that Egyptian design motifs played an important role in the development of the Art Deco aesthetic, but it must be remembered that from the 1890s-1920s there was a pervasive interest among us westerners with the "orient" in general; including Egypt, the Middle East, Asia, and ancient peoples who formerly inhabited such areas. One sees artistic fusions of distinct styles being concocted and appreciated all throughout this time, sometimes haphazard jumbles of distinct styles, such as carved tables with Chinese dragons, Japanese Chrysanthemums, and a sprinkling of other southeast Asian motifs which if not accurately assembled, at least supplied a consumer demand at the time. "Camel" cigarettes, for example, came out in 1913, and their Egyptian influence is obvious even without the wealth of additional artistic source material brought to light a decade later by professional grave robbers. Even in the 1850s, calling one's patent meds "Egyptian" or "Arabian" liniments was considered a solid advertising ploy, so exposure to and interest in "the orient" has been around for quite some time.

 Also, one cannot forget the ancient Greek "Geometric" period, which showcases many design elements which I consider to be directly adopted by the Art Deco movement. Certainly many other cultures contributed to the Deco "toolbox" as well.








 Anyway, I have this bottle to submit for consideration.

 It is BIM, it is not straight-sided; the "waist" of the bottle, directly above the ribbed and embossed base section, is palpably narrower than the shoulder area. Also note the ribbing of the base and how it expands and is widest at the base/bottom. Not sure if this is of any help, but in the hand it feels like a contour coke, just with more of an attenuated/subdued curvy profile. Certainly not a classically "deco" bottle but it sure isn't like it's typical straight-sided contemporaries either.


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## Bass Assassin (Aug 6, 2013)

SODAPOPBOB, thanks for the thread and some interesting reading material. 
 Plumbata, I have never seen a bottle like you posted and must admit i do like it. It is very "different" from other coca cola bottles. With coca cola in script, would that mean that it did in fact contain coca cola?


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## Bass Assassin (Aug 6, 2013)

Wait, do I see Hire's at the bottom?


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## Plumbata (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks Mark, even though it isn't very dramatic shape-wise, it still seems like a morphological "baby step" away from standard cylindrical sodas and towards the direction of more distinctively-shaped or ornamented "deco" containers. I've seen a few like this bottle possessing only the "Hires" side, with what would be the "Coca-Cola Bottling Co. Peoria, ILL" side comprised of plain vertical ribbing, though that's about as far as my experience goes. When one considers how the bottles would roll along the line, with the widest part of the shoulder and then the widest part of the base (adjacent bottom) making contact, it seems to show an early consideration for the minimization of case-wear on embossing; as seen later in ABM deco sodas with their more deliberate raised "barrel hoops" or whatever ya call the features that they could roll on, thus minimizing damage to embossing in a more systematic manner. 

 And I think it actually contained Hires Root Beer, despite the trademarked script Coke embossing. It is a strange and anomalous hybrid, as both brand names are embossed in their own respective trademarked fonts/styles. Not everyday one comes across a SS coke like this. My dad and I went digging at that TOC dump last month and he pulled it out within minutes of hopping into the dump. Heckuva first bottle of the day.


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## Bass Assassin (Aug 6, 2013)

It is a fantastic bottle. Congratulations to you and your father on the find. I'm gonna snoop around on the internet and see if it had any brothers or sisters, because I would like to know if there are more out there like it. Thanks again


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## Bass Assassin (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry BOB,  didn't intend to hijack your thread


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 6, 2013)

Hello, I just looked on e-bay and found a bottle similar to yours,    ( with out the coca-cola)  says 1910-1920


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## lblackvelvet (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry, I have yet to figure out how to post e-bay's listings in here. Need to learn how to do that !!!!!  Cool bottle !!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  Bass Assassin
> 
> Sorry BOB,  didn't intend to hijack your thread


 
 You didn't! No explanations necessary. Here's a little something related to the amber Hires/Coca Cola bottle, or at least one similar to it.

 From the Soda Fizz magazine ~ By Kathy ~ 2004

 Scroll to ...

*FYI: Brown Hires Bottle*

 http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/thesodafizz/2004sep28.html


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## Bass Assassin (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks BOB. I have pulled this link and read over it and it is similar, but not the same. I think Plumbata may have stumbled upon a pretty good find. With the Hires logo and the Coca Cola in script, it may be a rarity. This might make a great new thread. I tried to copy and paste his description of and photos of his bottle but couldn't do it. The photos wouldn't transfer for me. I would like to see a new thread started with his bottle to see if there's another out there . Plumbata, could you do that for us? Just curious to see what kind of results we get.


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