# Treasure found at local market-Bellarmine Or Bartmann Jug



## Brewster113 (Sep 15, 2021)

I found this at our local market, Southworks in Cambridge Ont. I have been collecting for 50 years and this is the first one I have found to buy. It was described as a face vase but in fact it is a Bellarmine or Bartmann Jug from Germany. These jugs were used from 1650's to the mid 1700's. It is in amazing condition with only a small firing spot.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 15, 2021)

Is it legit? Jamestowne pottery   reproduction were produced in 1978.  I am not an expert with these. I do like it though.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## Harry Pristis (Sep 15, 2021)

*I suspect repro.  I think the face is too detailed, too 3 dimensional.  It would be wonderful if I were wrong.  *


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## Brewster113 (Sep 15, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Is it legit? Jamestowne pottery   reproduction were produced in 1978.  I am not an expert with these. I do like it though.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


Jamestown ones are marked as such from Jamestown.


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## Brewster113 (Sep 15, 2021)

Harry Pristis said:


> *I suspect repro.  I think the face is too detailed, too 3 dimensional.  It would be wonderful if I were wrong.  *


Google bellarmine and select images, there are lots that are three dimensional and quite detailed. Not all are repos, it just looks and feels right, been collecting for 50 years.


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## Harry Pristis (Sep 15, 2021)

*We have a Brit on this forum who has some experience with these bellarmines.  I've been collecting for 55 years, but that means little when working with images to determine authenticity.  I've only found one partial bellarmine in my searching.





*


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 15, 2021)

Brewster113 said:


> Jamestown ones are marked as such from Jamestown.


I would hope so. Not all reproduction are marked as such.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## TROG (Sep 16, 2021)

The base looks unusual for an original as they normally taper down without the bulge (although some bases are like this ) and typically chip around the edges. Is the bottom wire cut or plain.


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## Brewster113 (Sep 16, 2021)

TROG said:


> The base looks unusual for an original as they normally taper down without the bulge (although some bases are like this ) and typically chip around the edges. Is the bottom wire cut or plain.


Wire cut


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 16, 2021)

The faces and handle are applied after the jug is made, if I'm  not mistaken.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## Harry Pristis (Sep 16, 2021)

*I think the face and cartouches are put on immediately after the jug is turned. They must be applied while the application clay and the jug clay have the same moisture content.  Otherwise, the applied clay may pop off the jug in the kiln.  That's my understanding from my potter friend.*


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 17, 2021)

Harry Pristis said:


> *I think the face and cartouches are put on immediately after the jug is turned. They must be applied while the application clay and the jug clay have the same moisture content.  Otherwise, the applied clay may pop off the jug in the kiln.  That's my understanding from my potter friend.*


That's what I have learned, I also can on some see a light seam going around the face. I've loved these jugs ever since i first saw one. I've never found a piece of one.  One day maybe.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## Harry Pristis (Sep 17, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> That's what I have learned, I also can on some see a light seam going around the face. I've loved these jugs ever since i first saw one. I've never found a piece of one.  One day maybe.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.



*Good hunting, ROBBYBOBBY64!  I found the fragment on the bottom of a tidal, blackwater, Carolina river.  I searched in vain for more of the jug, but searching by feel - zero viz - is hit and miss.  Ordinarily, I wouldn't keep broken things, but this bellarmine fragment awed me with it's age and character.  *


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## EvansBottles (Sep 22, 2021)

I don't know much about Bellermine jugs. But always found them quite interesting. If someone did make repro's of them
I would have to wonder about it. What I don't see in the pictures provided is wear. A jug that has been around for over
three hundred yeas is going to show evidence of that. I would look closely at the base. That is where the most wear would show. But I would also expect to see some on the body as well. Little chips in the glaze, scratches, etc. This one just looks
too good to me. And the style of the base doesn't look right compared to what I've seen.

            Mark Evans


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## relic rescuer (Sep 22, 2021)

Brewster113 said:


> I found this at our local market, Southworks in Cambridge Ont. I have been collecting for 50 years and this is the first one I have found to buy. It was described as a face vase but in fact it is a Bellarmine or Bartmann Jug from Germany. These jugs were used from 1650's to the mid 1700's. It is in amazing condition with only a small firing spot.View attachment 229771View attachment 229772View attachment 229770


Cool jug but that face is creepy as hell...


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