# Earliest ACL Royal Crown Cola redux



## morbious_fod (Oct 3, 2014)

Before the forums were upgraded and thus locking all older threads there was a discussion about finding the first acl Royal Crown Cola. The poster had a line of bottles starting from 1936, and was wondering if there was one from 1935. This turned into a twelve page thread; however, I have yet to be able to ascertain whether or not they actually identified a 1935. 

Sodapopbob was trying to verify it through ads on the Newspaper Archive site, which from experience I know is grossly lacking when looking for a complete source of newspapers, which is why I dropped them after a year; however, Squirtbob actually provided something that actually gave me pause when he posted one of his Upper 10 bottles marked G1 on the bulge under the lip.

The reason I was even researching this is that I was looking up the date codes for Glenshaw glass to attempt to date my clear glass embossed pointy pyramid Royal Crown Cola that I picked up today. This bottle was from Louisville, KY and the town name is in large thick letters which is unusual for the Royal Crown Colas that I have seen even from the period. Of course the "Good Housekeeping Bureau" seal is on the back. Just as Squirtbob's Upper 10 mine does have G1 on the buldge, and from the dating table in the third edition of the Painted Label Soda book, that makes it a 1935.

Not sure what the 1 means, or if it is even relevant, but I'm sure the 23 embossed on the other side isn't the date. I will take pictures when I get a chance. The original thread link is below and will take you to the page that Squirtbob posted the photo of his G1 bottle. If this does make it 1935 then it is the second oldest ACL I own, my other early embossed neck ACL is a 1937.

http://www.antique-bottle...Bottle-m650674-p3.aspx


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## morbious_fod (Oct 3, 2014)

Ok, I have something to offer which might actually help out in discovering when exactly these pointy pyramid bottles were likely introduced. Well I wanted to post the published trademark for the RC letters in a pointy pyramid; however, with this system if you try to delete a photo because it was too large and then try to re-upload it again in a smaller form it freaks out and won’t let you upload anything. How annoying. The date it was filed on was November 2, 1935; however, the claimed usage date is September 1, 1935. So it appears that the pyramid embossed logo didn't exist until late 1935, and while some may have been used with a paper label it is more likely that they registered this trademark to be used on this particular bottle because the ACL neck label process hadn't been perfected or introduced yet. Since it was late in the year when they introduced these bottles, and most likely the ACLs themselves, they simply didn't have the advertising ready for them until the the following spring when the bottling season got into full swing again. As with all early ACLs not everyone jumped on board immediately, and this is why we still see paper labels being attached to these bottles in ads.


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## squirtbob (Oct 4, 2014)

I just looked at three bottles that I picked up a couple years ago at the same location, an old junk store where bottles had been sitting outside for decades. Three of the bottles had the exact same appearance. They are all embossed at the base "MIN.CONTS.6-FL.OZ. (over) PROPERTY OF NEHI BOTTLING CO. They all have a visible ring that protrudes around the neck. Two are Upper 10 bottles, the other one I can't determine but since it came from the same spot I'm assuming it is also an Upper 10.  What is interesting is that two bottles are Glenshaw G1 and the other is an Owens-Illinois bottle dated 1936. Is it possible that G1 stands for 1936 and a G by itself was 1935 and then in subsequent years they decided to go with the alphabet in ascending order?  My earliest Glenshaw produced squirt botttle, shown in a previous thread, has a clear marking of "K" for 1939.  The advertising on that bottle is consistent also with that date.  Sometime recently I saw a Glenshaw bottle with a "J" on it and I believe it had a Good Housekeeping label on the back, so I believe that was a 1938 marking.  I can't remember what it was, perhaps it was an RC bottle.  My questions related to this thread are, "Has anyone seen a Glenshaw bottle with an H or an I"? (I haven't), and secondly "has anyone seen this good housekeeping label on a bottle earlier than 1937.  I happened upon on a very poor condition RC bottle yesterday with the Good housekeeping label and it was an OI bottle from 1937. I left it in the store.


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## squirtbob (Oct 4, 2014)

Sorry. I'm not sure how my post got to the top of this thread. If someone can correct that go ahead.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 4, 2014)

Morb

I'm glad you re-opened this discussion because I came across the following information recently which caused me to question whether the Glenshaw codes we keep referring to are accurate or not. I even thought about adding this to the original Royal Crown thread but changed my mind when I discovered it was locked down. Please note I'm not saying the following information is 100% conclusive, but I do feel it is worth consideration and that a closer look at the whole Glenshaw picture might be in order. Check it out and see what you think ...

Http://njbottles.com/index.php?topic=735.0  Edited because image was sideways and trying again ... but not sideways when I initially posted it ??? Last attempt to straighten image ... ??? It appears there might be a glitch in the posting format ... ???


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 4, 2014)

Here's the Glenshaw chart that most of refer to for the various codes. But notice where I underlined in red where it says ...  "That may have been the introductory year for the first Glenshaw applied color label." So it appears that whoever compiled this chart wasn't 100% certain about the codes either.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

Morb I wanted to let you know I'm working on a new (separate) thread that I'm currently gathering information for in an attempt to try and understand the Glenshaw Glass Company codes and whether they started using the lip (reinforcing ring) codes in 1935 or earlier. I still have some work to do before starting the thread, but have already found some stuff that raises a number of interesting questions. In the meantime I wanted to share the two images below to show that the G on a Upper 10 Bottle and the G on the bottle I posted earlier are similar enough in style to warrant a closer look at things. The third image with the 31 on the reinforcing ring (lip) will be discussed in more detail when I start the new thread, which I hope to post within the next couple of days.


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## hemihampton (Oct 5, 2014)

Here's a link to the old post. Interesting. LEON. https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Oldest-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-Bottle-m650674.aspx


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Morb I wanted to let you know I'm working on a new (separate) thread that I'm currently gathering information for in an attempt to try and understand the Glenshaw Glass Company codes and whether they started using the lip (reinforcing ring) codes in 1935 or earlier. I still have some work to do before starting the thread, but have already found some stuff that raises a number of interesting questions. In the meantime I wanted to share the two images below to show that the G on a Upper 10 Bottle and the G on the bottle I posted earlier are similar enough in style to warrant a closer look at things. The third image with the 31 on the reinforcing ring (lip) will be discussed in more detail when I start the new thread, which I hope to post within the next couple of days.



I don't think I would get that drawn into that number on the reinforcing ring. If that was a date code then my Royal Crown ACL bottle would be dated 1923. I think that number refers to something other than date.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

[attachment=12ozroyalcrownpointy.jpg]

Here's the bottle I am talking about. 

While the G1 possibly representing 1936 is an interesting possibility then there should be a G11 or G2 bottle to represent I; however, we have nothing of the sort. The fact that an H or an I hasn't been seen by us doesn't mean that they don't exist. Then there is the fact that the letter code system does continue from the G with no apparent breaks into the fifties.

My money is that the G1 refers to the first year they used the G, which has been shrunken and moved further up the reinforcing ring, while they had originally used it as one of their brand marks. I have an ad that will blow Sodapopbob's mind.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

Ok this is just annoying.

Here is the RC trademark I mentioned earlier.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

Finally something works!


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

From August 1931 here is a Glenshaw ad for their deco bottles.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

Sodapopbob freaks out in 3...2...1.

Notice the artistic representations of the bottles and more importantly what is on the reinforcing ring as we are calling it. It appears that they used the G on their bottles for a very long time, which may give us the reasoning behind the G1 with the speculation that the 1 was put there so that the workers in the plant knew that it was being used for a dating system from then on rather than whatever they were using before.

Chattanooga Glass did a similar thing with the reasoning that they didn't want their customers, or the end customer knowing what year a particular bottle was made in.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Here's the Glenshaw chart that most of refer to for the various codes. But notice where I underlined in red where it says ...  "That may have been the introductory year for the first Glenshaw applied color label." So it appears that whoever compiled this chart wasn't 100% certain about the codes either.



I guess it is all in how you read that line. They aren't saying that they aren't certain that G means 1935. They aren't sure of the reason why that year was chosen to start the coding, and assume that reason might be the introduction of the painted label bottles for the company, thus your "may".

I think their speculation that the adoption of the painted label bottles being the reason for this change in dating might be spot on. Makes sense when you remember that the ACL was first used on a soda bottle by Owens Illinois only a year or so earlier.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

morbious_fod said:
			
		

> Sodapopbob freaks out in 3...2...1.



Morb You're right! I'm freaking out because I'm excited you provided evidence which focuses attention on my initial question about the use of the lip codes. And when it comes right down to it, all I'm attempting to do is point out that the *G *mark on the chart below indicates it was first used (for whatever reason) in 1935, and yet your 1931 ad clearly illustrates the *G *mark was used as early as 1931. So I naturally can't help but wonder which one is accurate - your 1931 ad or the chart below which most collectors rely on when attempting to date Glenshaw bottles? Please Note:  My primary focus at the moment is with the G mark only and not variations of it nor any other letters in the alphabet. The chart says *G = 1935 *and before that is clarified none of the other letters hold much relevance for me at the moment. In other words, can we really say for certain if the G stands for 1931 or 1935, or perhaps neither and it simply stands for Glenshaw?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

P.S. Because of the charts, if I found a non-acl deco style Glenshaw bottle with a G on the lip, I would naturally assume it was made in 1935. But now I see there is possibly this is incorrect and that it could actually date as early as 1931.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

P.S. ~ P.S. 
Now I'm wondering if this New Jersey collector knows more about Glenshaw bottles than I previously thought?  Notice where he says ...

"They dated their bottles by the letters on the lip each year, starting with G for Glenshaw in 1927."

http://njbottles.com/index.php?topic=735.0


I wonder where he came up with *1927*? Is it just because 1927 is embossed on the bottom of his bottle or was he referring to something else?  He sounds fairly confident that G stands for Glenshaw.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

They had been using a G on the lip as a trademark, which is why it is larger and more prominent than the later G.

They adopted the G in a square trademark in 1932 from everything I've read. Not trusting that fact completely I compared a Jan 1932 ad to a Sept. 1932 ad, and found that they have dropped the G on the bottles and started using the G in a square in the advertising by Sept. 1932.

Logically they stopped using the G on the lip in 1932 when they adopted the G in the square trademark, and when they adopted the letter dating system they put the "1" beside the now smaller G to stop confusion with the earlier bottles. They started with G for their dating system for purely narcissistic reasons. I'm sure they put the G on the lip on more than just decos.

I think the code dating table is spot on especially since it was created by long time ACL collectors who would have figured this stuff out years ago.

The Jersey guy saw 1927 on the bottom and the G on the neck and rightly surmised that the G meant Glenshaw Glass. That doesn't mean that the G on that lip had anything to do with the date at that point.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 5, 2014)

The September 1932 ad. So this means that they hadn't used G on the reinforcement rings of their bottles for nearly three years prior to their alphabetic dating code adoption. This I suspect is the real reason for G1 being on the 1935 dated bottles. This also means there should be an H and an I bottle out there for 1936 and 1937.



 Note the G in a square and no G on the reinforcement ring around the lip.


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## dbv1919 (Oct 5, 2014)

Morbious- That's a great RC bottle.  I have some with the Louisville KY embossed on the bottom,  I have never seen one with the city on the back under the goodhousekeeping logo in the ACL. Thanks for sharing.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

I agree with the 1932 date for the introduction of the G in-a-square mark. Prior to 1932 most Glenshaw bottles were marked with *G.G.CO. *I have never seen the G.G.CO. mark, but never really looked for it and don't have that many non-acls to examine. As for the size of the G, the earlier G might be a little larger than the later G but the difference to me is almost unnoticeable. Please note: I'm not trying to split hairs as to these minute differences but rather trying to make this as comprehensive as possible for future reference. This could very well be the first time the Glenshaw codes have been examined this closely and I'm just trying to get it right. As for Morb's RC bottle being a 1935, I still have my doubts about that and just looking for more confirmation. The thing is, its either a 1935 bottle or it isn't. Thus, the G1 is just about the only thing we have to work with at the moment to determine an accurate date. Even Morb himself indicated its probably a 1936 ... G = 1935 + 1 = 1936  As for the size of the G's ... I tried to size these images the same but for various reasons its almost impossible for me to do that. So what I did is use the upper lip of the bottle for scale (because the lip portion is about the same on all Crown bottles) and then used the red lines to segment the entire closure into two sections. In other words, the G on both bottles appears to be about 1/2 the height of the upper lip. The long story short of it is, the G on both bottles look about the same size to me. After opening either image, gently roll your mouse wheel and the images will change back and forth ...


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 5, 2014)

You guys are blowing my mind with this stuff and I hope you'll share your findings with Dave Whitten and othersConnor may have just made an "oops" or maybe he does know something more, maybe you could ask.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

Next Questions: 1.  If Morb's bottle is a 1936, then why doesn't it have an H on it?2.  Have we ever seen a solo G other than on the deco bottle? ... ( Sorry, I can't recall [8|])


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

morbious_fod said:
			
		

> Before the forums were upgraded and thus locking all older threads there was a discussion about finding the first acl Royal Crown Cola. The poster had a line of bottles starting from 1936, and was wondering if there was one from 1935. This turned into a twelve page thread; however, I have yet to be able to ascertain whether or not they actually identified a 1935.
> 
> Sodapopbob was trying to verify it through ads on the Newspaper Archive site, which from experience I know is grossly lacking when looking for a complete source of newspapers, which is why I dropped them after a year; however, Squirtbob actually provided something that actually gave me pause when he posted one of his Upper 10 bottles marked G1 on the bulge under the lip.
> 
> ...



*Correction ...* *I misunderstood what Morb was saying about his bottle and thought he indicated it was a 1936. I see now where he said ... (See Above)*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

squirtbob said:
			
		

> Is it possible that G1 stands for 1936 and a G by itself was 1935 and then in subsequent years they decided to go with the alphabet in ascending order?



And then squirtbob came along later and said, in part ... (See Above)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

Consequently, I think the biggest question of all at the moment is ... *Are there any Glenshaw ACL soda bottles marked on the lip with a Solo G ?*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

If we weren't already confused, I'm sure this will do it. It's from a 2010 forum thread by jskirk and pertains to a Glenshaw bottle he has that's marked with ... *                 GH* https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/found-a-32oz-Glenshaw-green-bottle-today-m303318.aspx


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## grime5 (Oct 5, 2014)

my old r-c is marked g-j.what year would that be.later greg


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

grime5 said:
			
		

> my old r-c is marked g-j.what year would that be.later greg


                   Um, ah ,,, according to the charts, that would make your bottle a ...                                                  *1935 / 1938*                         ( Which is crazier and more confusing than GH )


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 5, 2014)

Hey, squirtbob                            Are you absolutely certain that's a G1 and not a G*I*


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## squirtbob (Oct 6, 2014)

OK, I've carefully looked at my squirt collection and other bottles that are Glenshaw produced and a couple ebay sales that lend some information.  Here's what I have.I have 33 squirt bottles manufactured by Glenshaw.  I have neck labels, K,L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, W, X & Y. The advertising on the back of the bottles confirms that the neck letter corresponds to the Glenshaw chart that we know about. I don't have any doubts about that beginning with my K bottle.So, what about the infamous G1or GI.  I have an Upper 10 bottle with that lip and it has a banner under the name that says "It Alkalizes". I also have an Owens-Illinois Upper 10 bottle with the banner also reading "It Alkalizes" It also has the Good Housekeeping label on the back. The OI bottle definitely dates to 1937. Later examples of Upper 10 bottles changed the banner to say "Picks You Up".Recently on Ebay someone sold a 7 up bottle with the G1 or GI label and listed it as 1935 (and I think they must have been reading our discussion to make that statement).  The problem with it was that the advertising on the back was more in line with 7 up advertising from 1937. "A Cooler Off, A Fresher Up".  I have OI 7up bottles with that slogan and they date 1937 or 1938. I also have an OI 7UP dated 1936 and it has an earlier slogan.Sometime on Ebay I believe I saw an RC bottle with a Good Housekeeping Label. It was Glenshaw produced and it had a J neck ...consistent with being a 1938 bottle.So based on the posts that indicate the possibility of a GH bottle and a GJ bottle I now believe the my Upper 10 bottle is GI, that's the letter I, not a 1 (one).If this theory holds then Glenshaw ACL's would be G=1935, GH=1936, GI=1937, GJ=1938, perhaps then transitioning to J=1938, K=1939 and then consistently ascending in alphabetic order. I believe my squirt sample is large enough to sustain the date method from K forward.  Perhaps others will check these things out and let us know what they have. Pretty soon we'll have it figured out.  What do you think SODAPOPBOB?  And someone please find me a J or GJ Squirt!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

squirtbob What I think is that your examination and findings are the possibly the most comprehensive and helpfully informative of any ever recorded. I scoured the Internet during the original RC thread and doing the same now and have not found a single commentary as well researched as what you just posted. I'm not sure who the individual or individuals were who compiled the chart we normally refer to, but it seems obvious now that they missed a few things, especially the existence of the double-letters on the reinforcing rings of more than just a few bottles. In other words, well done. You are to be commended and your findings definitely shine a whole new light on things. I'm not sure what it all means yet, but you have at least established what I would call a *logical sequence.*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

P.S. To add to your sequence theory, perhaps in the beginning of the code system they intended for the *G* to stand for *G*lenshaw, I.E., *G*lenshaw/*H* = 1936, but for some reason changed it to single letters when they got to K The reason I'm even suggesting this is because, as far as I know, there are yet to be found any single letter G's H's I's J's ... and if those particular single-letters do exist, and anyone who reads this has one, please share it with us.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

I'm going on a limb here and suggest the possibility that the Glenshaw Glass Company's first lip coded ACL might have been a GH for 1936  ???  < Please note the question marks. Of course, I will immediately ditch this suggestion if/when any single-letter G's are found.


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## squirtbob (Oct 6, 2014)

It would be great if the two members who had GH and GJ bottles would post pictures. If GJ exists then I'm thinking that it was in 1938 when they began to transition to a single letter.  I am positive I saw a Glenshaw bottle that sold on Ebay recently and the seller noted the "J" on the neck with a perfectly clear picture.  Naturally, I didn't save the listing but you SODAPOPBOB are great at locating that kind of detail.Maybe you can find it, it wasn't that long ago.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

I'll try and find a J, but no need to locate a K cause you already have one of those []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

One Glenshaw ACL to look for that might have a J is a Whistle bottle because it was part of their lineup in Morb's 1931 Ad. I'm not sure when the first Whistle ACL was produced, but it could be a possible candidate.


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## carling (Oct 6, 2014)

I have two bottles with a GJ.  I posted here once long ago questioning the double letter mark.I also have one bottle with a J.It will be a couple days before I can post (my camera died and will need to borrow one).  Maybe somebody else will post examples before I will have a chance. Rick


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## morbious_fod (Oct 6, 2014)

[attachment=Royal+Crown+Bottle...m+May+2014+(3).jpg] 

While Squirtbob makes an excelent examination, he has forgotten to acknowledge the actual evolution of the Royal Crown Cola bottles themselves. I don't think that the G1 we are looking at is actually GI which would mean that my pointed pyramid embossed is a 1937. Every 1937 I have ever seen has the debossed flat top pyramid with the star over it. Then the logo is embossed on the 1938 and 1939, if the 1939 doesn't have the neck label acl.

I don't think the assumption that G1 is actually GI stands up, because it doesn't match the evolution of the on the bottles themselves, as can be seen in the original photo posted on the old thread. I'm willing to bet the advertising actually backs this evolution up as well.

BTW I never agreed that G1 meant 1936, and have even shifted further away from that as I have been doing my own research in the Glenshaw ads, and finding out that they once used a G on the lip as a trademark before adopting the G in a square in 1932. The G on the lip which was so prominent in their earlier advertising is no longer used about halfway through 1932. A FULL THREE YEARS prior to this date code system, which is why Soda's comparing the size of the Gs makes no sense.

The use of this earlier mark means a plain G wouldn't be used when it was resurrected, so they throw a 1 in there, they may have even continued with a GH, GI, GJ. Yet again, I say that what we are calling a G1 matches the evolution of neck embossing/debossing on the Royal Crown Cola bottles, and this leads me to continue to theorize that G1 was 1935.

It's the old dot beside the single number on Owens Illinois bottles thing all over again.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 6, 2014)

For reference sake here is the lip of my suspected 1935 Royal Crown Cola bottle. It doesn't appear to be a clearly embossed as the G1/I from the Upper 10 bottle, and I dare say the 1/I is shifted a bit higher than the G. Could be a trick of the eye.


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## squirtbob (Oct 6, 2014)

Morb,  Thanks for posting all the pictures. You have some very very nice RC Bottles.  All three bottles  that I have with the lip characters we are discussing look exactly like your previous lip post. It is certainly open to interpretation as to whether it is a 1 or an I ...as you can tell there are no horizontal markings on the character to help us. While I can see why Glenshaw might use G1 to mark its first year date marking acl's, I don't currently see how that works on the 7UP bottles I mentioned when you consider the advertising.  I'm not expert on the Upper 10 bottles, I just know that some features of an OI Upper 10 bottle from 1937 match my glenshaw Upper 10...but that is not conclusive because I don't know much about Upper 10 ad historyI guess I should also note here concerning the Glenshaw chart that we always refer to ... I have a"Y" bottle squirt and it is certainly not double dated as the author of that article mentions.  My "Y" has a 45 on the base and that would be impossible for that particular bottle.  It has all caps block letters in the splash and the advertising on the back was only used from 1952 to 1957.If we keep plugging along maybe we'll find the solution. Hopefully others will post more info and pictures.  I certainly appreciate all the info you have listed.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

No time to comment at the moment, just posting the codes again to use as a reference for the recent contributions ...


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## dbv1919 (Oct 6, 2014)

Morbious- I started the original post with the pics on the white shelf. I think the 1937 year was a transition year for the neck debossing as I have one 37 with the pointed star and one with the flattened star over it. 1939 was the year they started the neck acl's. The neck acls are different from all the latter acls in that they have royal RC crown on the neck as opposed to just royal crown. I posted a pic of one on the original post on page 7 if that helps.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

I am sincere when I say there is a part of me that wants to believe the code chart is spot on, and yet there is another part of me that calls it into question. My uncertainty primarily stems from the fact that of the numerous accounts I have seen regarding the code charts that not in a single one of them do they mention anything whatsoever about the *double-letter *codes. And some of the accounts I'm referring to were compiled by what I would call advanced researchers. Surely those advanced researchers examined numerous Glenshaw bottles and surely they came across at least a few of the double-letter examples. And yet, even with this said, there is no mention of the double-letters. Its as if they just ignored the G's and continued as if the second letters were the only ones that counted. If you go back and read the entire page where the code chart is shown, you will see in the second paragraph where it says ...

"PSBCA [Painted Soda Bottle Collectors Association] member David Meinz cracked the odd code after visiting the Glenshaw Glass Co. in 1989."

And just so you'll know, the Glenshaw factory was still in operation in 1989 and still is under it's new name, Kelman Bottles, LLC, so its not as if David Meinz was just stumbling around an old deserted plant digging through debris, the assumption is that he actually met with someone at the facility where he obtained the code information. And yet, I say again, why no mention of the double-letters? Thus, is it even remotely possible there are some unanswered questions that need to be addressed and some missing links that require mending? I for one say yes! The craziest thing of all is, here we are trying to make sense of things and all we comprise of is a handful of soda bottle collectors who are simply trying to accurately date a couple of old Royal Crown Cola bottles. But if true-blue soda bottle collectors can't do it, then I don't know who can!

So are you ready for some more confusion? I hope so because I have a bucket-load of it!

Confusion # 1 ...

I'm not certain this is all that relevant, but because we're trying to set the record straight I figured it was worthy of at least a cursory examination. Notice in the first paragraph of the attached article where it says ...

"Sources disagree on the date when Glenshaw began using the [G in-a-square] logo. It may have been in use as early as 1904 ..."

I looked into this and, even though I haven't found confirmation yet, there appears to be ample evidence to support the possibility that Glenshaw did in fact first use the G in-a-square logo as early as 1904. The most noteworthy indication is the possible existence of a 1904 "Trademark" application. I looked for the Trademark source but so far but haven't found anything specific yet. If it does exist, and can be confirmed, then we can at least add that to our records which may, in time, assist us in better understanding the codes themselves. You can do your own research into this subject, but in the meantime here are just a couple of the sources I have found so far ...

 Bill Lockhart Article ~ Page 441 ~ Same as the image below

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap10b.pdf


Bottle Pickers ~ Trademarks ~ Listed Alphabetically

http://www.bottlepickers.com/trademarks.htm 



Confusion # 2

In the middle paragraph of the attached article, notice where it says ...

"Two digit numbers do accompany the Box-G logo on many bottles during the letter date code period, *but these are not dates.*"


The reason I call this confusing is because in the date code page where David Meinz supposedly broke the code, it clearly says that double dating on the lip and base occurred from 1953 until 1958. And yet, if I understand Bill Lockhart correctly, the double digit numbers on the base are not dates. But most confusing of all is that Bill Lockhart just leaves the statement hanging there without expounding as to what the double-digit numbers represent if not dates. Geeze Louise, how confusing can it get? So my question is this, did someone brake the dang code or didn't they? But irregardless of that, maybe this information will at least clarify squirtbob's quandary about the Y/45. But that's just about all it clarifies!

Hey, squirtbob! 

The 45 isn't a date! But please don't ask me what it represents cause I dunno!  []

Image from ...

Bill Lockhart Article ~ Original 2000 / Revised 2010 ~ Page 441


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

P.S. I wonder exactly what Bill Lockhart meant when he said in his article ... "By at least 1932, Glenshaw began embossing a small "G" on the reinforcing ring of the crown finish of its soda bottles. The letters began to advance in 1936, and they became reliable date codes." It sounds to me as if the reliable date codes didn't start until *1936*, suggesting that 1935 was not a part of the equation at the time. What do the rest of you think he meant?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

P.S. ~ P.S. And if the embossing of a small "G" began in 1932, and then "advanced," then is he saying the letter(s) were used on their bottles continuously from 1932 to 1936?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

Just doing some math assuming they started with the letter G in 1932 and "advanced" to 1936 ...  G = 1932H = 1933I = 1934J = 1935K = 1936 Hmm, it doesn't make much sense to me, at least not if the charts are accurate. But then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding what Bill Lockhart is saying.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

Okay, I get it now! I think. The letters didn't "start" to advance until 1936. But it still sounds to me there's a possibility that bottles made between 1932 and 1936 had "some kind" of mark or letter, which was possibly the G we've seen, such as the one's in Morb's 1931 Ad.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

*Inconclusive Conclusion / Long Story Short ...* If Bill Lockhart is correct, then the Glenshaw reinforcing ring letter codes began in *1935 *and the letter used was probably a *G*. But what still needs to be explained is the *G 1/I *as well as the other double-letter marked bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

*                                GH  ~  GI  ~  GJ* *  Its right there in front of us, but what do they mean?*


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## squirtbob (Oct 6, 2014)

I really think we know GH 1936, GI 1937, GJ 1938.  It would really help if we could see the code and the bottles that are GH and GJ.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

Could it be something as simple and unorthodoxed as some worker guy at the Glenshaw plant saying one day  ... "Hey, guys! I know! Since we've been using a G on our bottles for so many years and have already used the G for 1935, and because H follows G, why not start advancing our new date codes with GH"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

And then about three years later, around 1939, the boss says ... "Whose dumb idea was it to use GH for 1936, GI for 1937, and GJ for 1938? Anyway, it don't matter now who it was. But because I'm the boss around here, from now on we're going to start using single letters and I want all of our new bottles to have a single K for 1939 and that's that!"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

squirtbob You asked for a picture of a Glenshaw GH bottle. Well, here it is ... [] https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/found-a-32oz-Glenshaw-green-bottle-today-m303318.aspx


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2014)

All things considered, I'm going with Bill Lockhart's and Rick Sweeney's findings as stated below in an article published in the Soda Fizz newsletter in 2007. I might continue to search for some of the various Glenshaw bottles and also see what I can find to explain the double letters, but other than that I'm signing off of this thread because this article was written by what I consider to be one of the world's top bottle researchers and I feel that anything I might find on my own will just bring me right back to the same conclusions as stated in this article. Hey, Morb Thanks for providing us with a most interesting topic of discussion. I honestly believe there might be a 1935 Royal Crown Cola ACL bottle out there somewhere, but I don't think anyone has found it yet. Thanks, too, to all of the rest of you who have helped to make this thread a fun and rewarding experience. In the event that any of my comments or methods of research have offended anyone, I apologize for that and hope everyone understands that that's just my nature and way of doing things, which are never ever intended to challenge or upset anyone. Later, alligators Sodapopbob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 7, 2014)

One for the road ... []

http://forum.antiquebottles-glass.com/discussion/635/hurricane-sandy-finds-kenneys-bottling-works-bridgeport-ct-/p1

" You were correct with the makers mark identification. Glenshaw Glass Co. I was able to locate the dating code on the lip of the bottle. It is an "H" which tells this bottle was manufactured in 1936!"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 7, 2014)

I was asked by a forum member to clarify a few of my earlier comments regarding the double-letter codes. So out of respect for that individual, and anyone else who might be interested in what I have to say, here goes ...

Based on the available information, and the way in which I interpret it, it is as simple as 1 2 3  

1.  The double-letter codes are variations of the single-letter codes. Why this occurred I cannot say but there is ample evidence, such as the GH bottle owned by at least one forum member, plus the H bottle I posted a link to, which support this interpretation.   

2.  When deciphering a double-letter code, the G stands for Glenshaw and the second letter represents the date. For example ...

GH minus the G leaves the H and the H represents 1936
GI minus the G leaves the I and the I represents 1937
GJ minus the G leaves the J and the J represents 1938

3.  There is no way that every double-letter code that starts with a G can possibly represent 1935


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 7, 2014)

P.S. 4.  Not all of the lip-coded Glenshaw bottles are ACLs. Some of them are Non-ACLs (Fully Embossed)


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. I wonder exactly what Bill Lockhart meant when he said in his article ... "By at least 1932, Glenshaw began embossing a small "G" on the reinforcing ring of the crown finish of its soda bottles. The letters began to advance in 1936, and they became reliable date codes." It sounds to me as if the reliable date codes didn't start until *1936*, suggesting that 1935 was not a part of the equation at the time. What do the rest of you think he meant?



"The letters began to advance in 1936", which means that there is an H which appeared in 1936, making 1935 a G.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. ~ P.S. And if the embossing of a small "G" began in 1932, and then "advanced," then is he saying the letter(s) were used on their bottles continuously from 1932 to 1936?



All the while ignoring the August 1931 ad which clearly shows the G embossed in the lip of the bottles.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

squirtbob said:
			
		

> Morb,  Thanks for posting all the pictures. You have some very very nice RC Bottles.  All three bottles  that I have with the lip characters we are discussing look exactly like your previous lip post. It is certainly open to interpretation as to whether it is a 1 or an I ...as you can tell there are no horizontal markings on the character to help us. While I can see why Glenshaw might use G1 to mark its first year date marking acl's, I don't currently see how that works on the 7UP bottles I mentioned when you consider the advertising.  I'm not expert on the Upper 10 bottles, I just know that some features of an OI Upper 10 bottle from 1937 match my glenshaw Upper 10...but that is not conclusive because I don't know much about Upper 10 ad historyI guess I should also note here concerning the Glenshaw chart that we always refer to ... I have a"Y" bottle squirt and it is certainly not double dated as the author of that article mentions.  My "Y" has a 45 on the base and that would be impossible for that particular bottle.  It has all caps block letters in the splash and the advertising on the back was only used from 1952 to 1957.If we keep plugging along maybe we'll find the solution. Hopefully others will post more info and pictures.  I certainly appreciate all the info you have listed.



Those aren't my bottles they were the ones from the original poster.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

dbv1919 said:
			
		

> Morbious- I started the original post with the pics on the white shelf. I think the 1937 year was a transition year for the neck debossing as I have one 37 with the pointed star and one with the flattened star over it. 1939 was the year they started the neck acl's. The neck acls are different from all the latter acls in that they have royal RC crown on the neck as opposed to just royal crown. I posted a pic of one on the original post on page 7 if that helps.



I was referring to the pointed pyramid with no star which if their claim is correct is a 1937; however, I don't think it works out from a neck embossing evolution standpoint. Yeah I realized that the 1939 was the first year of the neck acl, and the only year to include the RC under the arched Royal Crown which makes them very easy to spot. I own one from Kingsport Tennessee pictured below.

[attachment=12ozroyalcrown39.jpg]


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

Just working a possible transition from 1936 to 1937 angle, could you get us a better photo of the 1937 bottle right beside the 1936? The one with the crud in the neck. I can't be sure what I'm seeing on that embossing due to that stuff.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

While still working the possible transition bottle angle I ran across this post in the original thread. This is a green glass RC in pointed pyramid embossed bottle from Owens Illinois dated 1937. So this means that G 1/I could indeed be GI, and that my bottle could be a very early 1937 bottle. Like I said most 1937 Royal Crown bottles you see have the star above the flattened pyramid, thus these pointed pyramid bottles were eliminated by a running change in early 1937.

Never let it be said that I can't be mistaken, and willing to admit as much when I find evidence to possibility of the contrary.

That being said, there is still the evidence of the use of the RC in a pyramid being September 1935 from the trademark filing itself. So the possibility that there is a 1935 Royal Crown Cola bottle is still very possible; however, it would have only been in production for a couple of months.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> I am sincere when I say there is a part of me that wants to believe the code chart is spot on, and yet there is another part of me that calls it into question. My uncertainty primarily stems from the fact that of the numerous accounts I have seen regarding the code charts that not in a single one of them do they mention anything whatsoever about the *double-letter *codes. And some of the accounts I'm referring to were compiled by what I would call advanced researchers. Surely those advanced researchers examined numerous Glenshaw bottles and surely they came across at least a few of the double-letter examples. And yet, even with this said, there is no mention of the double-letters. Its as if they just ignored the G's and continued as if the second letters were the only ones that counted. If you go back and read the entire page where the code chart is shown, you will see in the second paragraph where it says ...
> 
> "PSBCA [Painted Soda Bottle Collectors Association] member David Meinz cracked the odd code after visiting the Glenshaw Glass Co. in 1989."
> 
> And just so you'll know, the Glenshaw factory was still in operation in 1989 and still is under it's new name, Kelman Bottles, LLC, so its not as if David Meinz was just stumbling around an old deserted plant digging through debris, the assumption is that he actually met with someone at the facility where he obtained the code information. And yet, I say again, why no mention of the double-letters? Thus, is it even remotely possible there are some unanswered questions that need to be addressed and some missing links that require mending? I for one say yes! The craziest thing of all is, here we are trying to make sense of things and all we comprise of is a handful of soda bottle collectors who are simply trying to accurately date a couple of old Royal Crown Cola bottles. But if true-blue soda bottle collectors can't do it, then I don't know who can!



Here's the thing. He went to the factory in 1989 many years after they stopped using this code. Most likely he talked to some old timer there who informed him of the code and it's meaning; however, this old timer wasn't there in the 1930's when the double digit code was used, as apparently they stopped using this quite early in the process. It's just a matter of they simply didn't realize that the original codes where double digit. This David just took them at their word, since it did play out in the more common bottles, and assumed that the single digit letter just ran the rest of the way back. An easy assumption to make.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 7, 2014)

Here's another possibility to drive Soda crazy. If G1 isn't the first then is there a possibility that there is a GG for 1935 since the other codes start with a G and then include another letter? They would have had to avoid confusion with the earlier G embossed bottles.


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## squirtbob (Oct 7, 2014)

morbious_fod said:
			
		

> SODAPOPBOB said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Morb, Nice bottles you posted and sorry dbv1919 for not crediting your nice ones as well.  Prior to collecting bottles I have collected books by an author of the late 1800's. His name is G A Henty. Bibliographies began to appear in the early 50's for collectors and corrections were made in the 70's and finally around year 2000 a massive work was done with new and corrected information.  I think this probably happens a great deal in different avenues of collecting and we shouldn't be surprised that that is the case with bottles.  You generally stand on the shoulders of someone who has done a great deal of excellent work, everyone benefits from it but hopefully things continue to get modified and improvements are made.  Perhaps out of this the Glenshaw chart will be somewhat modified and improved.  More bottle collectors will become aware of subtle differences and the sample will become larger and the picture will become clearer.  Morb,  you may possibly be correct that a 1935 bottle would have a GG on the lip and perhaps we'll determine that GH, GI and GJ followed that for a few years until it eventually went to one letter. I am certain at some point that I have seen a single J for 1938 but don't doubt that a GJ exists. I'd like to see it. One minor correction that I'll post here concerns double dating of bottles in 1953. A point was made that in that year a "Y" appeared on the lip and a 53 showed on the base.  If I can post these pictures you will see that that does not hold for my squirt bottle.  It clearly has a "Y" on the lip and the number 45 on the base. Interestingly, the same number 45 appears on the opposite side of the lip.  I've only been on this site for a couple years but I've learned a great deal. Thanks to all.


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## squirtbob (Oct 7, 2014)

Sorry about the upside down picture post. If you can fix it fine if not I'm sure you can see what I'm talking about.


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## squirtbob (Oct 7, 2014)

Just in case my comment wasn't clear on the "Y"  squirt bottle, I'm saying that "Y" does stand for 1953.  The 45 on my squirt bottle has nothing to do with the date. The bold all caps font on the splash on the front  and the advertising on the back that I'll post here is perfectly consistent with 1953.


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

Ok, went through some bottles and found these..... ABC bottle on the far right, with its lip code G1 or GI. [attachment=ABC.JPG] [attachment=ABC, clear, front.JPG]


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

Bolton Club with GJ.  Don't know why the bottle is coming out sideways, its upright on my computer. [attachment=Bolton.JPG][attachment=Bolton Club c, front.JPG]


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

Mission Beverages with GJ. [attachment=Mission.JPG][attachment=Mission Beverages b, front.jpg]


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

Bubble up with a lone J.  [attachment=Bubble Up.JPG] [attachment=Bubble Up, front.JPG]


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

[attachment=Pep Up.JPG] [attachment=Pep-Up c, front.JPG] And an older Pep Up version with "Lithiated" on the label.  Its the bottle on the left.  Lip has the single J.   Don't know why these bottles are posting sideways.... Rick


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## squirtbob (Oct 8, 2014)

Thank you very much Rick. The pictures are very clear and you have some nice bottles.  Since I'm only vaguely familiar with those bottles does the date scheme that we are advocating make sense for your bottles?  In your case GI 1937, GJ 1938 and J 1938.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

carling / Rick I too want to thank you for the great pictures. Even though I said I signed off from this thread, it would be inappropriate of me not to acknowledge my appreciation in what I consider to be a major contribution. While I'm here I'd like to add that I have been looking at some bottles too (and not just Glenshaw bottles but bottles by various manufacturers) and discovered with every one I examined that when the letter *I *is used, the *I *never has the horizontal cross-bars but is always embossed with what looks like a lower case *l* For example ... [ Attachments ] 1.  This is the GI from the lip of the ABC bottle2.  This is the word REGISTERED from the heel of the Bolton Club bottle. Notice that the *I* in the     GI part of the word RE*GI*STERED does not have the cross bars3.  Cropped GI in the word REGISTERED Footnote: Everyone can check their own bottles, but I can tell you already the majority if not all of them that use the letter *I* in any manner will not have the cross bars. I have not found a single one yet. And while you're at it, check out any bottle that has a number one on it and don't be surprised if they look like this ... *1   *In other words, mold makers had the ability to make a *1 *just as easily as a capital *I *but for some reason always made the *I *look like a lower case L such as this ... *l *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

P.S. As to blowing my mind and me freaking out if a *GG* is found ... Heck, I'll do back flips even if a solo *G *is found (Other than on the late 1920s and early 1930s bottles)  I haven't seen a 1932 or later solo *G *yet and starting to wonder if they even exist. Maybe, just maybe they actually started with the *GH  *for 1936   ???


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 8, 2014)

carling said:
			
		

> Bubble up with a lone J.AndAnd an older Pep Up version with "Lithiated" on the label.  Its the bottle on the left.  Lip has the single J.


Can, meet worm. Subject, meet monkey wrench. []

Do either have a G in square on the base?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

P.S. ~ P.S. I grabbed this example at random because I own the bottle and because it has all of the key letters. Notice ... 1.  The capital *I *in Clinton which is a *l* 2.  The *G* and the *1*'s in G16183.  The solo *1* under the Owens-Illinois symbol Hence, mold makers had the ability to use a *l* for a capital L as well as a *1 *at the same time! Note:  I realize this is an Owens-Illinois bottle and not a Glenshaw bottle, but it appears that all of the glass manufactures used this same format.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

Hence ... In my humble opinion, these are *Gl *(GI) and not *G1*. With all three indicating 1937 bottles. 1. squirtbob's Upper 10 Bottle2. Morb's Royal Crown Cola Bottle3. carling's ABC Bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

P.S. One of the reasons I signed off from this thread (which seems contradictory now) is because I'm still working on a new and separate thread which will focus on the history of the Glenshaw Glass Company as well as other Glenshaw specific topics including an updated chart which will include the double letter codes as well as the single letter codes. But because this thread is under the title of Royal Crown Cola and is somewhat specific to dating those particular bottles, I didn't want to get too far afield with the Glenshaw stuff that might not be appropriate to this thread. Plus, in the new thread I want to share some Glenshaw newspaper articles I think everyone will find interesting like the time when tons of molten glass flooded into the basement and caused the Glenshaw factory to completely shut down. Please watch for the new thread which might be titled ... *                    GLENSHAW GLASS COMPANY ~ HISTORY ~ DATE CODES ~ ETC*


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## morbious_fod (Oct 8, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. As to blowing my mind and me freaking out if a *GG* is found ... Heck, I'll do back flips even if a solo *G *is found (Other than on the late 1920s and early 1930s bottles)  I haven't seen a 1932 or later solo *G *yet and starting to wonder if they even exist. Maybe, just maybe they actually started with the *GH  *for 1936   ???



I don't think there is a G used on the bottles from 1932 until 1935. Like I said the use of that G was their trademark until they started putting the G in a square on their bottles. It may turn out that there wasn't a code for 1935; however, it makes perfect sense for the glass company to start with the first letter of their name. We shall see.


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## morbious_fod (Oct 8, 2014)

Good job Carling, that's what we've been needing, artifact evidence with which to make educated hypotheses.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

morbious_fod said:
			
		

> Good job Carling, that's what we've been needing, artifact evidence with which to make educated hypotheses.



*Ditto!* Thus, carling qualifies for one of my infamous Gold Stars to acknowledge his contributions ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

morbious_fod said:
			
		

> Sodapopbob was trying to verify it through ads on the Newspaper Archive site, which from experience I know is grossly lacking when looking for a complete source of newspapers, which is why I dropped them after a year;


 Morb To clarify what I meant about not finding a G bottle between *1932 *and 1935, I meant that I haven't seen a G code on an actual bottle yet. I used 1932 because the earliest reference we have seen so far regarding Glenshaw using any lip letters is from the 1931 Ad below. That's why I'm quoting a portion of what you said in your opening statement about newspaper articles. In my opinion, magazine Ads and artist illustrations associated with them are no more reliable than are newspaper Ads. Just because the 1932 Ad doesn't illustrate any G's on the lip doesn't necessarily confirm that the actual bottles at the time didn't have them. For all we know the actual bottles might have had a G on the lip all the way from 1931 to 1935 and for some reason the 1932 Ad just didn't *illustrate* them. I'm not trying to split hairs or create controversy here, but rather, as you said in your last post, just trying to use "artifact evidence with which to make educated hypotheses." Personally, I don't consider newspaper Ads nor magazine Ads as "artifacts." Respectfully, Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

Lastly ... Why are we all of a sudden seeing examples of GH GI and GJ bottles but only one actual G bottle? (With a confirmed date for the G bottle still in question). The same can be asked about the existence of a GG bottle. Are we to assume the reason is because the G and/or GG bottles are extremely rare and one just hasn't turned up yet? Or is it possibly because they don't exist, other than the one I posted earlier who's actual date of production still needs to be confirmed? The owner of the G bottle indicated it was from 1927, but I still wonder where he got that date and seriously call into question the 1925 and the 1927 on the base of his bottles.  Here's an example of a Tom Tucker bottle I have that has 1937 on the base, (which I believe is a style number), but has an R on the lip for 1946.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

Lastly-lastly [] 
Just for the record ...

http://njbottles.com/index.php?topic=735.0

Owner's Description:

"The quart is embossed on both sides "J. WEINER & CO. INC./ WOODBRIDGE, N.J.", plus the other stuff. The base says it's from 1927. The lip has a very small letter "G", which was from the Glenshaw Glass Company. They dated their bottles by the letters on the lip each year, starting with G for Glenshaw in 1927."


*I strongly suspect the 1927 is a bottle style number and not a date for when the bottle was produced! I base my suspicions about the 1927 not just because of my Tom Tucker bottle but because of other, similar examples where the so called date on the base did not jive with the lip letter. (I plan to address this anomaly in more detail when I start my new thread). And to tell you the truth, I'm not convinced yet that this is even a Glenshaw bottle. Notice there is no G in-a-square on the base. I suppose it can be argued this is because it was made before 1932 when the G in-a-box was supposedly introduced. But if that's the case, then why didn't the owner mention any other embossing such as G.G.Co. which should be on the bottle somewhere? Or maybe there is a G.G.Co. on the heel and that's how he determined it was a Glenshaw bottle. Whatever the explanation, I still question the 1927 as being a date. As to when this bottle might actually have been made if not in 1927, I believe a lot more research is required before safely determining that. Who knows, maybe this is one of the first G bottles from 1935 but we just don't realize it yet. ???  < Please note the question marks!   *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

Just for the record and because we can only attach three images per reply ... [ Attachment is self explanatory and the best I can do to capture the entire image ]


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## carling (Oct 8, 2014)

Squirtbob, to answer your question to me regarding if the date scheme that you are advocating makes sense for the bottles I posted, unfortunately I couldn't tell you.  I don't have the multiple sequential years of the same bottle to closely examine like your Squirts.   Cowseatmaize, yes the bottles I posted do all have the G in the square on the base. Sodapopbob, thanks for the star!  Good catch on the I versus 1 controversy when looking at embossed words like "REGISTERED", where the letter I without crossbars is used.  I also noticed they used the distinct number 1 when referencing 12 ounces. Rick


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

I planned to save this stuff for my new thread and probably should but ... Here's a Glenshaw Dr Pepper bottle from Fallsburg, New York with *1680* on the base. I don't know what the lip code is but I'm pretty sure it was not made in 1680 []


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## squirtbob (Oct 8, 2014)

Bob,  Check again  I believe you might see the following -(LN)  ...do the math![]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

squirtbob said:
			
		

> Bob,  Check again  I believe you might see the following -(LN)  ...do the math![]



You lost me! Check what? What's (LN) mean? Math on what?


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## squirtbob (Oct 8, 2014)

Humor ...or a poor attempt at it.  L40 x N42 =1680


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

Ha ha - Hee hee  [] Very funny (not) Just for that you get this ... because I'm trying to make sense of the so called G/1927 bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2014)

P.S. Actually, what I'm attempting to do is catalog the four-digit numbers on the bases and see if there is a sequence of some type that might translate to dates. So far I discovered that ... (See my new thread for the answer) []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> So far I discovered that ...



 ... approximately 85% of the four-digit numbers end with the number *7*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

Because I consider this a significant find and because I need a little help, I decided not to save this for my new thread in the hope that others might like to participate and see if we can figure it out together. I realize this is not Royal Crown Cola related, but it might in some way help us to better understand the mysterious G-1927 bottle, which is likely a Glenshaw bottle even though that has not been confirmed yet. First of all, take a quick look at the two bottles below and see what you think they have in common, and then come back here for the rest of the story. The common denominators of both bottles are ...  1.  Both bottles are Glenshaw ACL soda bottles2.  Both bottles are 7 Ounce3.  Both bottles are similar if not identical in *style, shape, height *4.  Both bottles have the Box-G logo on the base5.  Both bottles are embossed on the base with the same four-digit number *1937* Obviously one bottle is green and the other is clear, which is part of the mystery as to what the number 1937 might represent. The only thing I can come up with is that 1937 is a "style/shape" code but does not have anything to do with the color. What I need help with is for others to see if they have or can find any more of these Glenshaw 1937 bottles, which I'm (almost) certain are style numbers and have nothing to do with the year they were made. The Tom Tucker bottle I own and is marked on the lip with an R for 1946. But unfortunately I do not know the lip code on the Twins bottle. Anyway, if more of the Code-1937 bottles can be found, especially if they are different brands, then it might help us to establish that the 1937 is in fact a style number, which in turn might help us to eventually establish that the G-1927 bottle is a style number as well and not a date. Thanks in advance to all of you who participate, especially those who find another Code-1937 Glenshaw soda bottle. 1.  Tom Tucker ~ Pittsburg, Pennsylvania2.  Twins ~ Detroit, Michigan


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

Twins ACL Soda Bottle ~ Forum Thread ~ 2012 ~ Glenshaw ~ 1937 on Base ~ S Lip-code for 1947                 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/TWINS-ACL-Info-please-m515177.aspx                              ( Reminder:  My Tom Tucker Lip-code is R for 1946 )


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

eBay ~ Solo *l *(I) ~ 1937 ~ No Lip pic ~ Needs confirmed but good clue ~  First & only solo "I" I've seen http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHAMPAY-7-oz-ACL-SODA-BOTTLE-CHAMPAY-BOTTLING-Co-OF-IND-E-CHICAGO-IND-I-/390901604000?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b038d1ea0


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

*                                               INCONCLUSIVE CONCLUSION* Instead of bombarding this thread more than I already have with boring details about the four digit numbers found on the bases of Box-G Glenshaw soda bottles, based on my cataloged findings I feel its safe to assume at this juncture that, at least with the 1940s bottles, the four digit numbers are *style* *codes*. However, this does not necessarily apply to the so called G-1927 bottle, which still needs confirmation as to whether or not it is a Glenshaw bottle. But because I or no one else seems to have ever seen or heard of another glass manufacture to use a G on the lip, the odds are pretty good that the G-1927 bottle is a Glenshaw bottle. But whether the 1927 is a date or a code still remains to be determined. Thus, I am presently discontinuing my search for the more common four digit numbers and will be focusing everything on the G-1927 number.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

*                                   Recap of the earlier lip codes found thus far ...* *                                 G-1927 ? ~ H ~ GH ~ I ~ GI ~ J ~ GJ ~ K thru Y ? * *Based on the examples seen thus far, the double letters appear early on with GH for 1936 but seem to cease with GJ for 1938    *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

If enough of us search, I'm sure we'll be able to find everything we need to know about ...                                    J. WEINER & CO. INC. WOODBRIDGE, N.J ... including when they were established, other bottles that might have been distributed by them, especially any that have a large four digit number on the base such as 1927. Just copy/paste the name to your favorite search engine and I bet in no time flat we'll find something interesting.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

I don't know when bottler J. Weiner & Co. was first established, but according to this 1924 publication they were in operation at that time. If the link doesn't go directly to the page where they are listed, just use the arrow and "flip" to Page 39. And if it appears in a weird red format, just click on where it says "Full Text" and the actual book will appear. The book can be enlarged to full-screen and the pages are easy to save like the one below ... https://archive.org/details/officialbook255t00wood


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 9, 2014)

I seam to remember looking into Weiner a while back but the page you showed wasn't open for me at this moment.Something about racing is what I remember. Was that it?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

Hey, cows I'm glad you showed up. I was looking at a forum thread earlier by member Wheelah23 who is the same Wheelah from the other forum where I found the G-1927 bottle. He talks about the same bottle here but the pictures won't open. Is there anything you can do to make the pictures open? And if not that, maybe you have a way of working around things so you can save and post the pictures for us. Anything you can do in this regard will be appreciated. Here's the link ... https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/A-dump-FINALLY-FOUND-ONE-m347697.aspx Thanks, Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

P.S. The pictures I'm referring to are on Post # 7


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 9, 2014)

Yup, that's the Conner I referred to many posts ago. I can't do much about the pics, they were hosted on imageshack. If he deleted them you'll have to ask him like I mentioned back then. Maybe he still has them on his computer.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

cows Thanks Perhaps one of the members who reads this is friends with Wheelah23 and will do us a courtesy and contact him. If not, I'll wait a couple of days and contact him myself. In the meantime, I found this "scrunched" image of what is described as a *Jim *Weiner beer bottle from Woodbridge, N.J. The scrunched look is deceiving and I'm pretty sure its a typical clear glass beer bottle. But there was no other information related to it. At least I have a possible first name to work with because the J by itself wasn't producing many results. I can't imagine there being more that one bottler in Woodbridge, New Jersey with the name "Weiner." However, based on this that and the other, I'm beginning to think there is a more than likely possibility the 1927 is the date for when the G-1927 bottle was made. Which takes us back to Morb's 1931 magazine where the lips all have a G, meaning the practice of putting a G on the lips of Glenshaw bottles could have started as early as 1927 or even earlier. ??? < Note the question marks  Here's the link where I found the Jim Weiner beer bottle, which also has a ton of other historic pictures for anyone specifically interested in Woodbridge, New Jersey history ... http://mhswebtvprinting.tripod.com/woodbridgetownshiphistory.html


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

*Here's the way things look to me at the moment ...*


*   Glenshaw Glass Company Bottle Codes*
*Codes referred to are on the bottle lip/reinforcing ring*

*G-Solo ... Used as early as 1927 and possibly earlier. G stands for Glenshaw*

 *(Box-G logo most likely introduced in 1932)*

*                (No Solo-G code is currently known which coexist with Box-G logo)*


*H & GH .. First codes to coexist with Box-G logo and both represent 1936*
*I & GI ... Both represent 1937*
*J & GJ .. Both represent 1938*

*                         (Double letter codes apparently cease in 1938)*

*K-Solo ... Represents 1939*
*L thru Z . Solo codes continue with an L for 1940 to Z for 1954 *

*                           (After 1954-Z the codes continue with ... )*

*A = 1955*
*B = 1956*
*C = 1957*
*D = 1958 ... Last lip code used and practice is discontinued*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2014)

Nest question to ponder ... If the chart I posted is even close to accurate in that there are currently no known double letter codes except those that represent 1936, 1937, and 1938, then why do you suppose the double letter codes were only used for three years?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2014)

Because I have searched endlessly for a G or GG Glenshaw bottle to no avail, and because my brain has turned to mush as a consequence, if its alright and no one objects I would like to offer a little incentive to encourage others to help out in the search. You may recall in the original thread where I acquired two of the Royal Crown Cola/Jack Dempsey booklets published in 1936 and were intended to teach boys how to box. As you will notice in one of the attached images below, the booklet contains a cool illustration of a "pointed" pyramid bottle. Plus it has a lot of other interesting stuff. The booklets value between $25.00 and $50.00 and if allowed I will send one of them free to the first individual who provides us with "any" soda bottle with either a G or GG on the lip reinforcing ring. However, I am not referring to the so called G-1927 bottle or another one similar to it. Ideally, the bottle I'm looking for should have the Box-G logo on the base. (G in-a-square). This offer stands until ... (To be determined) ? 1.  Cover2.  Inside showing bottle3.  Snippet of info


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 12, 2014)

As a memento to this discussion I purchased this original Royal Crown Ginger Ale label on eBay today. It's from San Mateo, California. I'm not sure when it was produced but it is the same label as seen in this ad from ...  1.  The Times ~ San Mateo, Ca. ~ November 26, 19322.  My label


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## dbv1919 (Oct 13, 2014)

Morbious- Sorry so long for pics been working a lot.1937 debossed necks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	













1938 embossed necks
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










About the best I could do on the pics.


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