# Help dating this Gulden's Mustard Jar with Label?



## jdhiller (Jul 8, 2013)

New Member, first post... Thanks in advance for any dating information I can get on this old jar. Reads "CHA'S. GULDEN DÃ©pÃ´t, New York. MOUTARDE IMPERIALE AUX FINES HERBES. Seul Fabricant autorisÃ©." Interestingly, the label has been applied over the letters "C & L" outline embossed about 5/8 inch high letters. I do not believe the label to be a later addition. Bottom of jar is blank.

 Gulden started his mustard business in New York in 1867. At first I thought this was a label for export to France, but I now believe all the French was intended to make the mustard look imported. In 1869 the  American Institute of the City of New York for the Encouragement of Science and Invention had a Fair into which Gulden entered his mustard. The handwritten judge's report said of Gulden's Mustard, "Although conveying the idea of foreign manufacture are really made in this city from American seeds etc., and represent the French and German flavors." So, my question: does this jar date to around the beginnings of Gulden's mustard business, and represent perhaps one of the earliest bottles with label from the company? The label certainly appears to be of that era, but I just don't know enough about the history of this jar shape to date the bottle. I think it is quite believable that a young (24 y.o.) businessman starting out in the mustard business would buy excess bottles of another manufacturer and apply his labels over their embossing. What do you folks think?


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## Dansalata (Jul 8, 2013)

dont know the dates but just wanted to compliment on your nice photography..wahata sweet label too..im sure one of the experts will chime in soon..welcome to the blue pages!!!


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## cyberdigger (Jul 8, 2013)

Indeed, nice debut post! Your info presented to us so far sounds pretty tight, it could be quite an early example..


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## GuntherHess (Jul 8, 2013)

According to Zumwalts book it appears the early bottles were in  the traditional barrel mustard form. 
 It seems around 1875 they started making bottles in that shorter jar form. Its odd that yours isn't embossed on the bottom.
 From you photo it seems to have a tooled lip rather than an earlier applied lip. Probably indicating 1880s or later.


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## RED Matthews (Jul 8, 2013)

Well Jim, the glass looks old enough.  The big question is how far up the neck do the seams go?  The neat thing is the label being placed over some one Else's embossed container.  

 Welcome to this Forum.  We need new interested people that like the idea of learning about one of America's early industrial developed industries.  
 To most of us; the concepts and marvels of the hand blown early glass makers, is what drew us into the study of the marks their processing made on the glass.  These marks have intrigued me, because of the mystery of how or why they became evidence of what they had to do to make the container with the tools and methods that developed along with the industrial application to our way of life.

 Check my homepage and you will learn about my 76 years of learning about glass making.
 RED Matthews


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## GuntherHess (Jul 8, 2013)

woops , totally missed the part about the C & L embossed under the label.
 That would explain the lack of the Gulden info on the bottom I guess.


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## epackage (Jul 8, 2013)

The label over the C & L troubles me...


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## GuntherHess (Jul 8, 2013)

its possible Gulden bought out bottle stock of another failed company.
 That shape is very close to their later bottles.
 Seems a bit odd though since companies like Gulden and Heinz were very tuned into product branding and design patents were a big part of that branding.
 Its an odd item. The label looks original to bottle from what I can see.


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## jdhiller (Jul 8, 2013)

@GuntherHess: Wondering, would it be surprising for a shoestring budget startup to be using excess bottle stock for his new venture? I think it's possible. I can understand your statement about branding for a more established Gulden's years later.


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## cyberdigger (Jul 8, 2013)

I have been staring and contemplating a bit.. perhaps a young Chas G did indeed use other peoples' jar stock at first, and he happened to like this style of jar, so he had his own designed after it more or less, once he could afford to... ?


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## cyberdigger (Jul 8, 2013)

The jar is almost identical to this one, which I always figured at around 1890 but never gave it much thought..


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## cyberdigger (Jul 8, 2013)

base


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## GuntherHess (Jul 8, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  jdhiller
> 
> @GuntherHess: Wondering, would it be surprising for a shoestring budget startup to be using excess bottle stock for his new venture? I think it's possible. I can understand your statement about branding for a more established Gulden's years later.


 

 Its possible. Its often hard to judge bottles without holding them in your hands.
 If its a tooled lip, i'd say ,no ,its probably not early enough.
 If its an applied lip you should be able to put your finger inside the neck and feel a ridge where the extra glass was added. A tooled lip with be smooth in the neck. Also the seam on a tooled lip wont come all the way up to the bottom of the lip because the lipping tool wipes it smooth below the lip. Tell me its an applied lip and that would start moving me towards your position.
 Since the known early Guldens were large barrel style it seems a bit odd they would use this smaller bottle.
 Also it would be useful knowing who C & L was. I couldn't find anything on them.


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## botlguy (Jul 9, 2013)

All in all a very interesting discussion. I am posting to simply follow the replies It's a simple jar worth a couple of bucks w/o the label but with it makes it worth investigating. In this case the label ADDS to it's value rather than detracts.


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## cowseatmaize (Jul 9, 2013)

Can you take a picture from the side of the seams? To me it has that look of thickness and bubble inclusion of early ABM's.
 And yes, paste over was common, especially during and near after economic depressions such as the 1893 one. Did you make a rubbing of the mark behind the label or is that just what you feel and see?
 Just thinking.


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## glass man (Jul 9, 2013)

The gold on the label fits in with the late 1890s "GILDED AGE" look ..so I think it is from around 1890'-1910 at the most and a very cool looking jar..I would say  15 bucks at the most..just from a non  food jar collector's thought...really curious if it is machine made ..I would bet my "reputation "  [[8D][][]] it ain't!!JAMIE


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## jdhiller (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks to all for replies, and regrets for the long wait on follow-up. 

 @cowseatmaize & others - Here's some more photos, the arrows show the spot where the seem totally disappears. The C&L was shot through the back of the bottle, and I flipped it in photoshop for reading. While the C is a bit bigger than the L, I think that what is pictured seems a bit exaggerated.

 @GuntherHess - inside of lip is smooth with little roughness, I would have to say it was tooled and not applied.

 @cyberdigger - yes, similar in shape, with some differences.

 In all, if the earliest bottles were barrel shaped, then perhaps this is one of the earliest of the new shape, as cyberdigger postulates. Gulden ran some test batches with this "borrowed" bottle style at some point, liked it, and began to produce his own?

 I think the company that owns Gulden's needs to own this bottle, perhaps it fills a unique niche in their company history and collection...


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## botlguy (Jul 9, 2013)

Jim Hiller. I hope you stick around. Your presentation and literacy is excellent. This has been interesting investigation / research. FUN !


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