# I'm probably going to start political parties on the antique bottles page due to this question. Lol.



## TxBottleDigger (Mar 18, 2021)

OKAY GUYS. Today I'm going to ask the question that I hear many people say different answers on.* WHEN *(circa) did manganese glass stop generally being made. I hear 1915, 1918, and even 1920s. Of course small bottling plants may have kept using manganese but I'm talking about the majority of plants.


----------



## Harry Pristis (Mar 18, 2021)

*


*


----------



## Csa (Mar 18, 2021)

Great explanation. Thank you.


----------



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Mar 18, 2021)

So the amethyst coloration is due to oxidation of the manganese? I never thought about why. I just knew it happened. Harry that is the most thorough reply I've seen yet. They all know UV light is the culprit but never explained indepth. Thanks again Harry!
ROBBYBOBBY64.


----------



## Robby Raccoon (Mar 18, 2021)

In general, most collectors say it ended at the start of WW1, but recycled glass cullet and stockpiles of manganese would surely have kept it going till 1918 or 1919 in many areas.


----------



## CanadianBottles (Mar 18, 2021)

I've got a manganese jar with a date of 1915 on the base, but I've never seen any conclusively dated to after the war so I imagine the switch-over happened gradually as stockpiles were used up.

Unfortunately this article is hidden behind a paywall, but the first page they let you view is interesting in that it clears up what I think is a common misconception about manganese https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ie50369a016.  It wasn't Germany itself that was supplying all the manganese (the country doesn't seem to have any manganese deposits at all) but rather that the war was making it significantly more difficult to get manganese to North America from Russia or India, so what they were able to get would be diverted into the war effort instead of glass factories.


----------



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Mar 19, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> I've got a manganese jar with a date of 1915 on the base, but I've never seen any conclusively dated to after the war so I imagine the switch-over happened gradually as stockpiles were used up.
> 
> Unfortunately this article is hidden behind a paywall, but the first page they let you view is interesting in that it clears up what I think is a common misconception about manganese https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ie50369a016.  It wasn't Germany itself that was supplying all the manganese (the country doesn't seem to have any manganese deposits at all) but rather that the war was making it significantly more difficult to get manganese to North America from Russia or India, so what they were able to get would be diverted into the war effort instead of glass factories.


That makes sense. Also the USA not joining the war until 1917 still provided war materials to Russia and the other allies. Thanks for the link.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 19, 2021)

Here are some late 20's soda bottles that were all manufactured by J.T. and A Hamilton glass works out of Pittsburgh bearing their mark (H inside triangle) they used from 1900 to 1943 . Two are 1928 dates and the Papy bottle is 1929, (shown is a patent date of 1928 for that particular design). The last 2 clear ones are also 1929 and carry the very slightest of pink tint. A later Papy bottle I have in clear bearing no maker marks apparently made at a different glass house may show that they switched , being unhappy with the product Hamilton put out that was laced with manganese. Later bottles by Hamilton showed they finally got their act together. It doesn't hurt my feelings any because I think they look great in the window.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 19, 2021)

Here is something else to wrap around this possibly. Heat may be a factor as well as seen in these rhodochrosite (manganese carbonate) mineral samples that got there color without exposure to sunlight. Pulled right out the dark depths displaying rich color. These examples were formed with hydrothermal heat in most cases. In some cases this rhodochrosite mineral was used as an ore of manganese. There are other minerals that are colored pink by manganese but I'll stop here.


----------



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Mar 19, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Here are some late 20's soda bottles that were all manufactured by J.T. and A Hamilton glass works out of Pittsburgh bearing their mark (H inside triangle) they used from 1900 to 1943 . Two are 1928 dates and the Papy bottle is 1929, (shown is a patent date of 1928 for that particular design). The last 2 clear ones are also 1929 and carry the very slightest of pink tint. A later Papy bottle I have in clear bearing no maker marks apparently made at a different glass house may show that they switched , being unhappy with the product Hamilton put out that was laced with manganese. Later bottles by Hamilton showed they finally got their act together. It doesn't hurt my feelings any because I think they look great in the window.


Thats a crazy twist looking papy bottle. So I guess they were still making bottles into the 1920's that used manganese as a clarifier. Whether from recycled glass or not. Still this proves at least to me. That there are always exceptions to the rule.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 19, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Thats a crazy twist looking papy bottle. So I guess they were still making bottles into the 1920's that used manganese as a clarifier. Whether from recycled glass or not. Still this proves at least to me. That there are always exceptions to the rule.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


Yes sometimes we trap ourselves into little boxes.
"Papy of them all" is the full title- I had to have it being amethyst and I can ignore the case wear.


----------



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Mar 19, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Yes sometimes we trap ourselves into little boxes.
> "Papy of them all" is the full title- I had to have it being amethyst and I can ignore the case wear.


That's a great bottle. What case wear? I don't see any at all. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 19, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> That's a great bottle. What case wear? I don't see any at all.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


Its there just hard to see at certain angles.


----------



## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Mar 19, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Its there just hard to see at certain angles.


Story of my life buddy! I'm too thin! Lol!
ROBBYBOBBY64.


----------



## CanadianBottles (Mar 19, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Here are some late 20's soda bottles that were all manufactured by J.T. and A Hamilton glass works out of Pittsburgh bearing their mark (H inside triangle) they used from 1900 to 1943 . Two are 1928 dates and the Papy bottle is 1929, (shown is a patent date of 1928 for that particular design). The last 2 clear ones are also 1929 and carry the very slightest of pink tint. A later Papy bottle I have in clear bearing no maker marks apparently made at a different glass house may show that they switched , being unhappy with the product Hamilton put out that was laced with manganese. Later bottles by Hamilton showed they finally got their act together. It doesn't hurt my feelings any because I think they look great in the window.



Oh those are really interesting!  I always wondered why no one switched back to manganese after the war when it became easy to acquire again, so it looks like some did after all.  I'll have to keep an eye out to see if I can find any more recently dated manganese bottles, I don't remember coming across any deco bottles that turn purple before.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 19, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> Oh those are really interesting!  I always wondered why no one switched back to manganese after the war when it became easy to acquire again, so it looks like some did after all.  I'll have to keep an eye out to see if I can find any more recently dated manganese bottles, I don't remember coming across any deco bottles that turn purple before.


These are the only decos I've seen (J T &A Hamilton glass works) that are amethyst. Well actually I was just remembering seeing a row of 5 different ones sold on e bay by a professorshipsalot. I do have a weird colored Lime Cola but I think it was a ice blue that was irradiated.


----------



## buriedtreasuretime (Mar 22, 2021)

TxBottleDigger said:


> OKAY GUYS. Today I'm going to ask the question that I hear many people say different answers on.* WHEN *(circa) did manganese glass stop generally being made. I hear 1915, 1918, and even 1920s. Of course small bottling plants may have kept using manganese but I'm talking about the majority of plants.



I used to pick up 1/5 liquor bottles in the Nevada desert that said federal law prohibits the sale or reuse of this bottle. They were not clear white glass but had a fair amount of yellow in their bases. Some of these were cork top !! This was probably for me in the 60’s and 70’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SODABOB (Mar 24, 2021)

Some misconceptions about glass and bottle production are often perpetuated by collectors - which does not always jive with empirical evidence discovered by researchers.  In other words, it was probably a bottle collector who first suggested that the use of manganese was discontinued around 1915. However, when we take a closer look, we see that some (Manganese/Selenium) amethyst colored bottles were produced as late as the early 1930s.  I think it would make for an interesting search to see if anyone can find a sun-colored-amethyst (SCA) bottle that is clearly dated from the 1930s. In the meantime, this link is to the best article I am aware of about the subject.

Front Matter - 40(2) (sha.org)


----------



## SODABOB (Mar 24, 2021)

P.S. 

Speaking of purple bottles and Cecil Munsey, this 2014 article by him is interesting. By the way, if you haven't heard, Cecil passed away in 2019.  

Born:     May 21, 1935
Died:     November 17, 2019


1305 Bottle Irradiation (sha.org)


----------



## buriedtreasuretime (Mar 28, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Here is something else to wrap around this possibly. Heat may be a factor as well as seen in these rhodochrosite (manganese carbonate) mineral samples that got there color without exposure to sunlight. Pulled right out the dark depths displaying rich color. These examples were formed with hydrothermal heat in most cases. In some cases this rhodochrosite mineral was used as an ore of manganese. There are other minerals that are colored pink by manganese but I'll stop here.





Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Yes sometimes we trap ourselves into little boxes.
> "Papy of them all" is the full title- I had to have it being amethyst and I can ignore the case wear.



I think that trilogy of pale color and texture is the bomb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## buriedtreasuretime (Mar 28, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Here is something else to wrap around this possibly. Heat may be a factor as well as seen in these rhodochrosite (manganese carbonate) mineral samples that got there color without exposure to sunlight. Pulled right out the dark depths displaying rich color. These examples were formed with hydrothermal heat in most cases. In some cases this rhodochrosite mineral was used as an ore of manganese. There are other minerals that are colored pink by manganese but I'll stop here.



I was told by a amethyst collector/ miner that if amethyst is subjected to sunlight for great lengths it loses its color or is diminished in color. Have you ever heard that. At the Tucson gem and mineral show in 19’ I saw so many different Amethysts from South America, Mexico, America, all very different in their color intensity and crystalline shape. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 29, 2021)

buriedtreasuretime said:


> I was told by a amethyst collector/ miner that if amethyst is subjected to sunlight for great lengths it loses its color or is diminished in color. Have you ever heard that. At the Tucson gem and mineral show in 19’ I saw so many different Amethysts from South America, Mexico, America, all very different in their color intensity and crystalline shape.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Heat treated Amethyst is sold/marketed as Citrine, a rarer form of amber/yellow colored quartz. So a lot of the Citrine for sale today is basically fake. It takes a good bit of heat to make this change. I have never seen sunlight fade amethyst but other less stable minerals against sunlight, yes.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 29, 2021)

buriedtreasuretime said:


> I was told by a amethyst collector/ miner that if amethyst is subjected to sunlight for great lengths it loses its color or is diminished in color. Have you ever heard that. At the Tucson gem and mineral show in 19’ I saw so many different Amethysts from South America, Mexico, America, all very different in their color intensity and crystalline shape.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amethyst in different color intensity is due to richer mineral ingredient at the time of crystallization, that is why you see color differences from different locales. All minerals are pure in color (clear/white) until other minerals invade the mixture and give it its color. In most cases its a metallic mineral introduced that gives a specific mineral its color (with glass making its the same). Oxidation can later occur underground (hydrothermally most of the time) and also change colors.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 29, 2021)

buriedtreasuretime said:


> I was told by a amethyst collector/ miner that if amethyst is subjected to sunlight for great lengths it loses its color or is diminished in color. Have you ever heard that. At the Tucson gem and mineral show in 19’ I saw so many different Amethysts from South America, Mexico, America, all very different in their color intensity and crystalline shape.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The FE iron ions that give Amethyst crystal its color can be diminished by UV rays according to studies.


----------



## Bottle 2 Rocks (Mar 31, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> These are the only decos I've seen (J T &A Hamilton glass works) that are amethyst. Well actually I was just remembering seeing a row of 5 different ones sold on e bay by a professorshipsalot. I do have a weird colored Lime Cola but I think it was a ice blue that was irradiated.


Ok I found that photo. These amethyst bottles used to be owned by Scott Allen Bricker. 2nd and 4th bottles made by J T and A Hamilton glassworks in the late 20's- the other 3 with manganese are from unknown maker also from the late 20's maybe early 30's.


----------



## buriedtreasuretime (Apr 1, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Ok I found that photo. These amethyst bottles used to be owned by Scott Allen Bricker. 2nd and 4th bottles made by J T and A Hamilton glassworks in the late 20's- the other 3 with manganese are from unknown maker also from the late 20's maybe early 30's.



What a pretty display! Just the right amount of color.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## buriedtreasuretime (Apr 1, 2021)

Bottle 2 Rocks said:


> Heat treated Amethyst is sold/marketed as Citrine, a rarer form of amber/yellow colored quartz. So a lot of the Citrine for sale today is basically fake. It takes a good bit of heat to make this change. I have never seen sunlight fade amethyst but other less stable minerals against sunlight, yes.



That is something I did not know, I saw some Brazilian citrine from amethyst. So that was heat treated? It sure was purdy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

