# Ã¯Â»Â¿History or Bureaucracy



## Its_Me_Chris (Sep 20, 2005)

*ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

ï»¿My topic is to address the matters of History being lost everyday to developers.
 And the local governments lining their pockets with the proceeds. Before I get
 into that however, I would like to point out that Archeologists often misdirect
 the significance of some â€œartifacts.â€ In other  words they take themselves a little
 too seriously. For instance in Jamestown settlement. With the recent findings of
 human skull fragments, scientists discovered signs of early brain surgery
 techniques.  Thatâ€™s very significant isnâ€™t it? In the article I read regarding this
 matter, it went on and on about how prolific and scientifically important this
 was. I think what that person meant was it was evidence to feed some fat
 bureaucrats the notion that all that government money was not going to waste.
 Please donâ€™t misunderstand what I am saying. I hope one day when they have
 discovered all that remains at that location they will do something in the order
 of Williamsburg with it. Some of these findings however are just nonsense.
 Letâ€™s pretend for a minute that our colonization of America had no previous
 history other then native roots in North America . Perhaps some man back in
 1607 had some head trauma and the cutting and relieving of blood buildup was
 eminent. Well pardon me but, â€œWhooptie flippin doo!â€ A quick trip back into
 reality would suggest that in 1605 a very similar surgery had been performed in
 England. And in 1597 in Austria, and 5,500 years ago in Egypt. Someone please
 help me see the logic in this. Ok it is perhaps the first Cranial surgery in the
 colony, or was it? What say you Dutch, French or Spanish. And that brings me
 now to my main topic. Archeologists and the government for that matter are
 very sloppy. Most historical acts of protection and preservation are begun with 
 concern from people of that locale. And more often then not, these ordinary
 citizens must fight beg and plead with state historic authorities to enact these 
 registries. Oh archeologists seem real concerned there donâ€™t they? What went
 wrong with Lewes, Delaware. Surveyors informed the Army Core that they 
   may be dredging over shipwreck sites. The Army Core alerted the DE
 authorities of their Contractors findings. DE gave them the go regardless of
 potential historic significance. Where were the archeologists then? Now the
 beach is littered by the remains of possible three shipwrecks. And archeologists
 are questioning themselves of the possibility that some of dredge spoils may
 have been from a previous settlement now lying less then a hundred feet from
 shore. And all they did was have the beach closed for 3 days. It reopened shortly
 after because it is a public beach and in an outrage over their mistake, the DE
 historic society had the audacity to call a few beachcombers pirates and looters.
 I guess I would be upset too if those mass produced case gin bottles were sitting
 in an antique store now instead of boxed up in the back of some store house.
 â€œWell exhibit 3801-A2:567923 Dutch case gin bottle; note: Historic gin bottle
 consumed by first settler in Delaware.â€ Oh well in that case, Grant is approved.
 Which brings me to my home state of NJ. Congress Hall, Moffit House, and 
 Sawyer House, Cape May, NJ. Congress Hall is so noted for the congressional 
 sessions held there by former politicians including some such as President 
 Lincoln.  A few years ago this grand historic landmark transferred owners. 
 The new owner completely remodeled the structure to bring it up to date for
 commercial use. It was all done discreetly and tastefully as not to destroy any 
 of the original architecture. Nearing completion the grounds surrounding the 
 property were also revamped with a paved parking system that would
 accommodate more cars. As for the rest of the grounds, all replaced with new 
 sod. My Cousin contracted most of the irrigation work. He asked the owner if 
 he would be allowed to use his metal detector, the owner denied his request 
 with the excuse that â€œIf I let you, I would have to let everyone.â€ They 
 removed 12+ inches of earth from two thirds of the property. In researching 
 I later learned that at a time prior to the civil war, there sat a gambling casino 
 on an unoccupied corner of the lot. All those â€œartifactsâ€ are now gone, probably 
 dumped on the driveways of some golf community. Some 180k a year doctor 
 is going to drop his keys on the way to work, lean down to retrieve them and 
 in doing so discover an 1849 gold $2 Â½ dollar coin. And whatâ€™s more is, Heâ€™ll 
 never even check the rest of the driveway. Where were the Archeologists 
 then? The Moffit House, Built c.177? Served as an Inn until itâ€™s recent 
 demolition. It will be replaced by a muti-family townhouse. Where were
 the Archeologists? And finally there was the Sawyer House. This property
 sported a landmark sign in the front near the road. I donâ€™t know much of itâ€™s
 history. â€œDid some one take the sign?â€ No, the City, thatâ€™s right the â€œCityâ€ of
 Cape May had it along with the house removed. Where are the archeologists?
 It seems to me that Historic commissions do a lot of good donâ€™t they? Before the
 time of metal detectors and GPR, many artifacts were within private holdings.
 Most of these collections were set on display in Museums around the time
 insurance and security improved in these facilities. Archeologists are looters
 themselves. If we treasure hunters were paid for our time in researching
 exploring and digging, we too would be more inclined to use a paint brush and
 record ground mineralization. I keep a journal of my findings. Some even
 document the wether. I f a place is of Historical Importance then it will be
 protected from armature treasure hunters. And free to be painstakingly paint-
 brushed and documented by scientists. If a place is not protected and bares some
 trifle monetary significance then please, Let us hardworking Americans have
 some leisurely enjoyment. 99.9% of what Amateur treasure hunters find, was
 mass produced to some degree. Lets put the guy with the tomato spade in jail
 cause he found an 1866 Indian penny were some Fedâ€™s had lunch, and letâ€™s give
 the guy with the bulldozer a tax break next year because he used common sense
 and dug fifty c.1600's privies last year and donated nothing to a museum. So is
 it really about history or is it greed? Itâ€™s apparent that archeologists are working
 for museums on digâ€™s according to their monetary value. Why else would they
 go from a 1607 dig in Jamestown, to an 1860's civil war plantation? I think itâ€™s
 safe to say because those CSA belt plates are worth an arm and a leg. And Uncle
 Sam will be damned if heâ€™ll let any of his citizens carry one home without first
 paying taxes. Why do museums pay so much for artifacts if itâ€™s just about the
 History. You answered my question. What would an English Onion bottle, with
 a certificate of Jamestown authenticity go for on Ebay? Enough to pay for
 another yearâ€™s digs on the Island Iâ€™d imagine. And if there are 12 museums with
 Jamestown displays and only 8 Onion bottles, I bet you know how do they
 decide who gets what? There are some things I donâ€™t want to own, things Iâ€™d
 much rather see in a museum. There are places I wouldnâ€™t dig without being
 alongside some professionals. Though I have never destroyed the scientific
 integrity of a property by digging out the crapper. I have recovered pipes,
 porcelains, bottles, marbles, t.brushes and coins none of which are broken. The
 act of my digging is history and one day Iâ€™m sure it will be analyzed by
 professionals. Humanity will never run out of antiquities to be examined, dug,
 appraised, displayed, lost, broken and stolen. When there are no more affordable
 silver coins to collect in the future because the Government melted most of
 them, will Archeologists come to our aid? They would likely see the demise of
 the hobby. By then metal detecting will not be allowed even in your own back
 yard. Can you imagine, I can. You donâ€™t own your yard you know, youâ€™re a
 â€œhomeâ€ owner, not a land owner. Thatâ€™s why we say â€œlandlord.â€ We just make
 use of the property and pay the Government a tax for allowing us the land to live
 on. Ever hear of Eminent Domain? Better but down that metal detector and pick
 up that rake cause we have some corn to plant. If your not using that land for the
 greater good of the people then the government can take it. Thatâ€™s just my
 opinion, Iâ€™m just a bottle digger. Sincerely, Chris in S. Jersey.?


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## Pettydigger (Sep 20, 2005)

*RE: History or Bureaucracy*

Welcome to the forum Chris, I agree almost 100% on the above post and pheewee it took me awile to read.[] Ya they can tear up a whole city block with earth-moving machines but I take my little shovel and try to discover an old antique bottle worth 50 cents and look out. I will not get into my views on government, this is a family viewed forum.[] One day I think the earth as we know it will be paved over and sh*t built everyplace. Until then lets dig and gather what history us diggers can find.  Pettydigger


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## BottleArchaeologist (Sep 20, 2005)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Chris,

      Let me see if I can make sense of your post.  I do not know the rules for other states but here in California the laws are clear.  If you do any major renovations and or digging on your property then a permit must be pulled and included in that is a provision for archaeological survey to determine impact on a potential site.  This includes both historic and prehistoric sites.  However that being said an Archaeologist will only be called to the site if it is within the bounds of the law. We don't go looking for people or properties.  We use a bidding process once the permits are pulled in order to be the Company on the site.  So where were the Archeaologists at the old house site in Deleware? Who knows.  

      On the whole the Archaeological community here in California (Cultural Resource Management) oversee's the excavation of sites only after test units and surface collection determines them to be culturally sensitive.  If we determine that no such detriment exists we will simply monitor and not completely excavate a site. Again this is the law here. 

      As for why the scientific community looks down upon site hunters it is quite simple actually and it didn't start with bottle hunters.  Long ago there were "treasure hunters" that plundered sites for the pieces that could be found and sold.  Take for instance the Pharoes tombs.  I know it may not seem to be the same but in actuality it is.  Those items were taken and the "provenieince" was lost as soon as it came out of the ground.  If someone finds a privy and digs it out without anyone knowing it then the site is destroyed in a scientific frame of mind.  Later on when someone comes to actually excavate the site then that part of the site is lost forever.  No records of it having ever existed. No or limited way to dtae the site.  

      The pieces that are collected are stored (curated) as facilities all over California. These curated collections are available for all to use as a resource for study. Now is anyone going to miss a bottle here or there or miss a small piece of china? No probably not in the grand scheme of things however each piece of the puzzle can give us insight on daily life. We can gather socio economic data and just plain daily life info from all of the things that are found.  Agin these collections are for use by anyone willing to study them.  

      As for who is working for who??? We as a company do not work for museums or University's.  We are paid as part of the contract that the owner/bulder signs.  We work for them but under the auspices of the State of California and or the Federal Govt depending on the project jurisdiction.  The owner/builder pays for all excavation, monitoring, lab work and curation costs as part of a pre-signed contract. We fulfill all of the duties of that contract. 

      As an Archaeologist and a bottle collector I can see both sides of it.  I can see the loss of information when people dig sites without permission. I see the loss of information when a site is dug and there is no record of it existing.  I also see the need for us bottle collectors to preserve the past.  I for one don't sell bottles that I find and collect. I keep them and learn their history for my own enrichment. I only take bottles that have no provenience associated with them and NEVER keep bottles from a work dig I am on.  Saying people keep records is nice but in actuality that info is lost to the scientific community as they will probably never see it.  

      Again I see your point but you must also see mine. 

 Regards,
 BA


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## Its_Me_Chris (Sep 21, 2005)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

BA, Reffering to Egypt is a terrible analogy. Mainly because the looters were Egyptians. Your comparing "artifacts" of the first civilization of man to an outhouse full of trash that a mere hundred years ago was full of excrament. Do you save plastic soda bottles? Do you realize that they are historically significant? They are after all the decendants of their "metal" predecessors. If you were "mad" and began digging plastic containers from the landfill, some hundred years from now you will be just as famous a looter as the tomb raiders of the Pharos! (Argumentively) I did mention that their are places where I would not dig, metal detect, without proper supervision. I am not digging 300 year old settlements but, some private properties which if anything contain endless duplication of every other house in America. I have never found a coin, bottle that was one or two of a kind nor am I likely to ever. Much of the history I have learned is owed in part to archeologists. So I do not dissagree with their pollitics altogether. It's just that their needs to be a medium. If someone has the ambition to explore and preserve some history, they may also be inclined to notify authorities of that locale. That will never happen as long as the Archeologicall societies continue to pass laws to prevent our hobbies. It's rather humorous how you made no mention of the Fisher's. I wonder if that is because they donate 25% of their proceeds to museums? Are they not destroying these underwater archeological sites. They work with archeologists I am told. And archeologists have used the assistance of metal detectors from time to time. How do those acts differ. I have made donations to my local museums. And I will tell anyone the location of anything i have found. In Rhode Island there is a 300+ year old town containing many cellar holes of stone. It has never been investigated by archeologists to my knwoledge, or even sanctioned by any organization. Unfortunately the land by which it resides has been purchased by a chemical company, and you know what they are going to do. So why do you and your affiliations even lift an eye browe to our activities. in ending I am saddened by hypocrisy. Let's forget about all the rifles floating in antique auctions and let's prosecute someone for taking a worthless rusted rifle from a river. It's just easier to go after the little guy. I have yet to meet a grave robber or even an advide bottle digger that has ruined a historic site. It is a simple case of time. In 50 years archeologists will find historical significance in post 1900 properties. 100 years from now they will converge on landfills. I say, if you want to be part of history, get out of the dirt and buy stock. What we do now is history. Imagine 10,000 years from now when scientists are laughing at our use of Ebay, just as we are fascinated by Egytology. And everything in between will be praised by hobbiests. An advanced alien decendant of ourself an their nastalgia will be all that matters.


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## IRISH (Sep 21, 2005)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

I can see the point from both sides of this,  Arche's have there place and we do need to record and preserve as much of our history as possible BUT just using Australia as an example why do they need to sift though a goldfield's tip hole and record every bit of black glass in it ?  Why when we (the digger's, history buffs etc) have already researched to the point we know who and when they lived there, what they ate and drank ?  the life and times of the population for the whole history of Australia and the past few hundred years in America and hundreds of years more in England and Europe has been recorded in great detail.

 I do think it's great and important to say, expose and record the foundations of an old long demolished 1850's bluestone house in Port Melbourne before the site is destroyed, or the layout of a little recorded civil war camp in some US state to help understand the site but again, we know how they lived, we know when they where there, we often know who they where and we can know what they ate and drank by simply digging up a few holes.  Why anyone would object to people digging up bottles or detecting on sites like the above is beond me [8|] .

 The place for real archaeological survey's is those sites of suspected major historical significance or ancient sites,  how many of those have been found by treasure hunters alone ?  many would never have been found otherwise.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 21, 2005)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

an archaeological survey permit to dig in my yard? hahaahahahahhha...ouch  sorry I fell off my chair. Californication is a funny place.


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## David E (Sep 22, 2005)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Have to agree with you Chris, don't pickup any glass on bureau of land mangement. A couple was seen by their agent's picking up a piece of glass off the surface of the ground. The couple were obliged to give agent's their name and left. Sometime after they received a citation in the mail. In our State if you go to a State Park you must sign in to Metal detect and they tell you to keep all money you find (Unless old) but you must turn in Jewlery and anything of age, which I would assume to be a old bottle also.
 That article (land mangement) and one article from and archaeologish in Alaska who was asking the bottle collector's for information as she was using bottles to determine history of a mining town, were in the National Bottle Collector's monthly magazine several years ago. I beleive that someone from the bureau of land management has a site on the web. Don't beleive they have the right to be digging bottle's well at work either. And maybe they secure the bottles at home. I don't think the taxpayer's wanted them to be archeologists, when their job is to just manage the land(whatever).
 Last Tomb I beleive that was found in the area of the burial site of
 the Pharoes was in a site behind a conseason stand in the valley of kings.
 Dave


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## Its_Me_Chris (Jan 2, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

I would appreciate continuing this topic among the thoughts of those who may have missed its conception. I know its rather lengthy though I felt the replys deserved a follow up. Perhaps some of you are familiar with WATTS? If not then you should enjoy becoming acquainted. Thanks for your time and opinions. Sincerely   -Chris in S Jersey. http://www.wwats.org


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## bearswede (Jan 2, 2006)

*RE: History or Bureaucracy*



> n archaeological survey permit to dig in my yard? hahaahahahahhha...ouch sorry I fell off my chair. Californication is a funny place.


 
 WHATTTTT!!!!!!!


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## bearswede (Jan 2, 2006)

*RE: History or Bureaucracy*



> The place for real archaeological survey's is those sites of suspected major historical significance or ancient sites, how many of those have been found by treasure hunters alone ? many would never have been found otherwise.


 
 Actually, no...

 The best archeology today focuses on patterns of human behavior derived from sampling the archeological record; i.e., looking at a wide spectrum of sites reflecting the variety of human behavior. Archeology began as a less-than-scientific exercise in looting third world sites for Imperial museums, motto being: biggest, richest, oldest = the best!

 Archeology has grown up. Now the focus is on deriving patterns of human behavior from studying patterns of material culture, in situ, from the archeological record. If you think about it, what people leave behind in their every-day activities probably reveals more than what they left behind at unique sites such as a grave. A study of graveyards in Victorian England, for example, showed that wealthy Englishmen erected more modest stones than their less-well-off Gypsy neighbors.

 The archeological record is not static... It is being altered by the forces of nature as it sits in the ground. Choices have to be made. We hope archeologists have the skills and will to make the right ones... But it may come down to money afterall... Who gets the funding, and for which project?

 Ron


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## IRISH (Jan 2, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

I wish Heritage Victoria would realise they should be interested in human behavior etc.  that way they could sit in our public records office and library's and leave the sites to the diggers [] . 
 As I've said before western/modern history has been recorded from the first settlers here,  there is great scope for Archeologists if we could find where the few people landed in the few hundred years before Cook or if the Chinese who left 10th century artifacts off the coast of WA landed there is another site Archeologists need to study.
 BUT they continue to try to keep bottle diggers off 1850's to 1900's sites that they are never going to get funding for anyhow when we would be happy to record the contents of the holes for them on the guarantee we could keep our finds with no record of who owns what.


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## capsoda (Jan 3, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

If an archeologist wants to watch me dig around in some old trash dump or S*#t hole,  fine. Just don't tell me I am destroying some site of great archeological importance. People live as they have for thousands of years, they eat, sleep, work, love, drink and die. We just have more machines to do it with. 
 Behavior patterns of humans are the same as they were since the beginning, shelter, food companionship and he has more than me so I'll kill his ass and take his.
 If I want to know how people lived 200 years ago I can pick up a book . They wrote it all down. Now if I want to know how people lived 10,000 years ago I'll ask an archeologist.

 Its not the hole of archeology just like its not the hole of bottle digging, diving and collecting, its the few who screw it all up.

 It may seem that I have over simplified it but if you think about it long enough you will see that it is. When people see a person digging for bottles why do they assume he's destroying something or stealing something. Mostly they want it for themself. I have had local historical preservationists and archeologists to start picking up my finds and trying to take them saying "What are you doing, your trespassing"  while I was on a permission dig on private property.

 I won't ramble any more. Just remember, Don't complain when I dig in old prives and dumps and I won't complain while you dig up my ancestors  who were here for thousands off years before The Europeans came over.


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## washingtonstatedigger (Jan 3, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Okay whether this was a good post or not is irrelevant to me, after I saw the picture of George Bush at the bottom. Come on do you liberals have to blame Bush for everything? Next thing you knopw you`ll be cursing him if the next bottle you dig up isnt pontilled. I mean I get your point but dont make it look like its one mans fault, or that this hasnt been going on for a long time now!


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## southern Maine diver (Jan 3, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Well said Ken[]

 Wayne


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## southern Maine diver (Jan 3, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Hey Chris in S Jersey...

 Did you happen to catch the thread "need help indetifying bottle type" posted on 12-02-05 by Lacyc???[8|]

 By the way, I'm originally from Patterson, NJ... grew up in Lake Hiawatha, Pine Brook, Parsippany area[]

 Wayne


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## capsoda (Jan 3, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*

Way to go Ken.


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## Its_Me_Chris (Jan 4, 2006)

*RE: ï»¿History or Bureaucracy*



> Okay whether this was a good post or not is irrelevant to me, after I saw the picture of George Bush at the bottom. Come on do you liberals have to blame Bush for everything? Next thing you knopw you`ll be cursing him if the next bottle you dig up isnt pontilled. I mean I get your point but dont make it look like its one mans fault, or that this hasnt been going on for a long time now!


 Wahingtonstatedigger. Before this becomes a huge political war, I will clarify my reason for using GWB's picture in the intial post. I was refering to eminent domain which I have outlined using some quotes below. Personaly I am neither for, nor against our President!!!



> Joseph Farah
> When White House press secretary Scott McClellan was repeatedly asked for the president's reaction to the shocking 5-4 decision by the Supreme Court blessing the government seizure of private homes and businesses for any and every reason, the spokesman did what he does for a living â€“ dodge.
> It may have been disappointing to many of George W. Bush's most ardent supporters that the president would not even criticize what some are calling the death of private property in America.
> The president has a moral and legal obligation to judge the constitutionality of actions of government â€“ all three branches of government. Presidents have been criticizing courts since the country was founded. It's normal. It's healthy. It's appropriate.
> ...


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