# Transitional mallet



## fer_de_lance (Dec 23, 2012)

Just purchased. Ebay seller described auction as "old bottle" and did not list under black glass,so I hoped I would have less competition.It was reported as found during road work in Dublin City,Ireland near Christ Church. It appears to my uneducated eye to be a transitional English mallet however the string lip looks different than the English onion and mallets in my collection.I will post the photo of sand pontil next. Anyone have opinion on what exactly this is?


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

English? 1730ish?


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## RED Matthews (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

That is a great bottle to have in any collection.  RED Matthews


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## epackage (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

"transitional English mallet".... Can you define what you mean by this term, it's out of my area of expertise.


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

epackage,
 transitional mallet describes a form in the evolution of the wine bottle. The Europeans started making wine bottles with taller sides and shoulders which are typically called mallets as compared to the earlier squat forms called onions. I was describing my new purchase as a form somewhere in between the onion and the mallet.If you do a random search on the web you will find much more information on antique wine bottles.


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## epackage (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Thanks


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## sandchip (Dec 23, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

It's a beauty, for sure.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Tim,likely an early English vessel,however in Dale Murschells book Wistarburgh,Windows Tiles Bottles and More he lists the various types of neck finishes on the artifacts discovered at the United Glass factory of Caspar Wistar in Alloway New Jersey,1739 to 1782. Wistar made quite a profit on Wine and rum bottles shipping as far away as South America. When relations really became strained between the Colonies and the Crown in the mid 1760s the glass trade was turned up quite a few notches from Wistar In New Jersey,Stiegel in Manheim and Peter Masons Hilltown glass works both in Pennsylvania,and the Germantown glass works in Braintree Mass. It is not out of the question that an American made bottle turned up in Ireland. With the dichotomy that existed between the four glass works assigning the bottle to any one would be difficult but the wider stance at the shoulder height and less of a deep kick up leaves open the possibility for American Manufacture. Jeff Noordsy and Michael George will hopefully see this and add their thoughts as well. Thanks for posting this a great addition to your collection.
 From Dale Murschells book Wistarburgh,Windows Tiles Bottles and More a great book by the way to pick up on eBay[] Page 46 listing neck treatments.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Again From Dales book page 38


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Closer look on E and J neck finishes. Based on the number of artifacts sporting the E neck finish found at Wistaburgh it has been proven unequivocally that this was the chosen method of finishing a mallet type bottle containing spirits in the 1739 to 1750 time period.There were just too many found to dismiss them as English Cullet. The majority of them also were different then their English Counterparts in color making the casual viewer able to see the differences that existed in similar bottles. I just recently picked up one of the Wistar made String lip Mallet bottles 1739 to 1750 and some  of the key traits the Americanm made bottle has are the thin walls,the pale yellow green color,the custom Wistar lip, the shallower base kick up,the longer neck comparitivley and the wider stance at the shoulders.It also has this exact lip treatment ( Figure E)  as Dale has shown us on page 38


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

From Germantown in Braintree Mass. a bottle in my collection again notice the wider stance at the shoulder height.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

2.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

3


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

The early Wistar Mallet bottle a recent addition to my collection. Notice just as in the Germantown bottle the shoulders are wider then the base. Clearly this shows the Germanic influence in the early American Glass houses.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

The Custom Wistar lip seen in Dales book can be seen on this mallet.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

3 Shallower kick up base. The pontil mark is a rod type.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Thanks for posting your bottle Tim Merry Christmas to you.


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Steve,
            Now that would be something I would have never thought to consider but would thrill me to no end. I've looked through my copy of Dumbrell's Understanding Antique Wine Bottles and nothing really matched. I hope my purchase makes it across the Atlantic safe and sound,this will be my first bottle direct from European seller.The auction mentioned customs regulation , maybe someone can enlighten me on that process.A copy of Murschell's book will be added to my library as soon as I can find one.Your insight in these matters is greatly appreciated.

                                                              Best regards,
                                                                   Tim




> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Tim,likely an early English vessel,however in Dale Murschells book Wistarburgh,Windows Tiles Bottles and More he lists the various types of neck finishes on the artifacts discovered at the United Glass factory of Caspar Wistar in Alloway New Jersey,1739 to 1782. Wistar made quite a profit on Wine and rum bottles shipping as far away as South America. When relations really became strained between the Colonies and the Crown in the mid 1760s the glass trade was turned up quite a few notches from Wistar In New Jersey,Stiegel in Manheim and Peter Masons Hilltown glass works both in Pennsylvania,and the Germantown glass works in Braintree Mass. It is not out of the question that an American made bottle turned up in Ireland. With the dichotomy that existed between the four glass works assigning the bottle to any one would be difficult but the wider stance at the shoulder height and less of a deep kick up leaves open the possibility for American Manufacture. Jeff Noordsy and Michael George will hopefully see this and add their thoughts as well. Thanks for posting this a great addition to your collection.
> From Dale Murschells book Wistarburgh,Windows Tiles Bottles and More a great book by the way to pick up on eBay[] Page 46 listing neck treatments.


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Steve,You have an quite collection of bottles and I see why one might entertain the possibility of North American manufacture of bottle in question.I'm hoping to place it between these two fine English chaps in the photo.I'm very fond of the squatty one as someone stippled their initials into it's surface. I purchased it some twenty years ago at the Nashville or Louisville bottle show from a gentleman they called Doc.The mallet came from a dive off the coast of Virginia.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Hi Tim stopped home from work,I have to leave again but I will post more information towards dinner time here in the east.


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## Steve/sewell (Dec 24, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Hi Tim, here is a link to Dales book   http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOOK-South-Jersey-glass-Wistarburg-18th-century-Wistar-/261143760673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccd618f21    This is a must if you collect colonial American glass.


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## deepbluedigger (Dec 27, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Good thread.

 The bottle in the first post looks like a nice example of a circa 1740 British mallet.

 I'm working on a group of over a hundred (very broken) 1740 - 1760 wines from a UK archaeological dig at the moment, on a site sealed in around 1760-70 and undisturbed ever since. Most interesting thing about them is the huge range of variation in detail of lips, bases, glass colour and shape, even though almost all of them are mallets or squat cylinders. The only ones falling outside the mallet category are three or four very fragmentary residual onions or late shaft & globes. It's a group that was used and thrown away by the occupants of fewer than half a dozen buildings that were all owned by one wealthy family.

 The most common lip types are very similar to D, E, G and Q on the page of colour photos that Steve posted.

 Loads of other glass with them too: flint tableware, phials, window glass. The ceramics have gone to another specialist, which is a shame as there's a huge amount of very cool stuff amongst that, too.


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 28, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Deepbluedigger,  Did you see the photo of squat form next to mallet pictured on a lap top key board earlier in this thread? A previous owner marked it with some letters.Was it common practice to keep a personal bottle at the local tavern therefore the need to put your mark on it? I guess this would be a poor man's version of a bottle seal.

                                                                                            Best regards,
                                                                                               Tim


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## RED Matthews (Dec 28, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Hello fer_de_lance;  When I was in college we all met in the evening at Jake Deaple's Bar and we all had ceramic beer mugs hanging on the wall with our names and some kind of B.S. printed on them.  I picked up a relationship with a lady and sorta forgot about the mug for too - long and they discarded it.  I am sure a lot of bars had private marked containers before I was even thought of - even if I am an old man now.  RED Matthews


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 29, 2012)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Red,
              I guess sometimes you have to have to pick your own posion.At that juncture at least it was your choice and you seem to still be able to sit up and take fluids. As for myself I woke up with a pulse this morning and I guess that's a good thing.

                                                 [] Tim


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## deepbluedigger (Jan 6, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

I don't know about personal bottles at the tavern, but onions, mallets and early cylinders do turn up from time to time with scratched or stippled initials. They are pretty scarce though. The ones I've seen are usually crudely done, so I'd guess they were one-off items done by private individuals for a variety of reasons, rather than at the glassworks.


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## fer_de_lance (Jan 12, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Mallet arrived from Ireland yesterday. I asked the seller where exactly it was found, he replied during construction on Fishamble Street near Christ Church Dublin,Ireland in the year 2000.I called it a "Transitional Mallet" because I thought  that was the proper name for the form in between the onion and the mallet but I saw a blog today that described the term transitional mallet as the form in between the mallet and the cylinder. Should it be called a transitional onion? The dimensions of the bottles pictured are as follows going from left to right:

 ONION  6.25" TALL/ 6.00"WIDE  

 ?TRANS? MALLET 7.875" TALL/  4.625" WIDE

 MALLET  8.312" TALL / 4.5" WIDE

 CYLINDER 9" TALL / 3.625" WIDE

                                  the sign in background is a Prohibition Era product made by a brewery in my home town.

                                             always supporting the craft beer movement,Cheers!
                                                                Tim


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## Steve/sewell (Jan 12, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Nice Tim glad it arrived safely. It is English as Jerry stated. The American made bottles similar in make up have a distinctly longer neck and the tops whether rolled outward or string type are quite different from their English counter parts. Your third bottle from the left looks maybe American tough to see the top from a distance.The neck looks to be like the type seen on American made ones.  I know you posted a picture of it earlier in this thread by your computer screen. Could you take an outdoor photo today in close of your new bottle and the one third from the left?  The American made bottles also tend to be lighter as the glass has thinner walls. Nice collection of early glass you have there.


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## fer_de_lance (Jan 13, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Steve, The daylight photos will have to come later as it is quite a overcast rainy day here in Southern Indiana. The bottle in question was a purchase made from ad in the Antique Bottle & Glass magazine.It was described as being recovered from the James River in Virginia. The glass appears to be quite dark but that maybe from the residue left inside from being buried.


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## Steve/sewell (Jan 13, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Nice Tim,the lip does look like it is American made. In 1755 there were only 5 glass works operating in the United States. They were The United Glass Company Wistrarburgh in New Jersey 1739 ,Germantown in Braintree Massachusetts 1750,New Windsor and Newfoundland Ulster County New York 1752 and 1756 and Hilltown in Bucks county Pennsylvania 1755. Your bottle with this additional picture is a strong candidate for any of these glass works. Liquor was the most profitable trade in the day and your bottle fits the 1750 to 1765 time era of manufacture. I cant wait to see some sunny pictures.


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## fer_de_lance (Feb 5, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Finally had time and sunshine for photos of mallet found in James River Virginia


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## fer_de_lance (Feb 5, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

stain on inside of bottle had the look of a of a man's eyes and nose.


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## fer_de_lance (Feb 5, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

quite a punt mark


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## glass man (Feb 6, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

I bought an onion years ago at the "LONGEST FLEA MARKET" that then went from ALA. to KENTUCKY...

 I bought it from some where in TENN. for 45 dollars...Still wish I had not sold it!!GOOD POST!!JAMIE


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 13, 2013)

*RE: Transitional mallet(pontil)*

Nice Tim, The top sure looks Wistar like to me.


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