# sand pontil



## bostaurus (Feb 18, 2009)

When I started collecting as a teenager almost 40 years ago I had a good understanding of rough pontils, refired pontils, ground or polished pontils, iron pontil and the different seam lines that might be found on unpontiled and pontiled bottles.  Since starting to get back into looking at resuming my collecting ( I guess you could say I am coming out of remission and show symptoms of "old glass" disease) I have noticed descriptions of Sand Pontils.  I have owned some bottles that had very rough, uneven bottoms but not pontiled or iron pontiled.   Could someone explain sand pontil to me?
 Also...I was browsing some of the discussions and somewhere folks were talking about removing wicker from bottles.  I have had one aqua,10 inch wicker covered bottle that I have owned since the mid 70's.  The wicker was in good shape but I always wondered what was under there.  It seemed that if the wicker had lasted that long I should leave it.  The discussions pro and con about leaving wicker convinced me to get out a knife this morning.  I am so glad I did that.  No pontil  but it is  beautifully whittled, sparkling, lots of tiny bubbles and white pot stones.  It looks so much better.  No more wicker.  Thanks...


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## GuntherHess (Feb 18, 2009)

Its one of those things which is tough to show in a photo but if you handle the actual bottle it will become quickly obvious. 


http://www.sha.org/bottle/pontil_scars.htm


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## RED Matthews (Feb 18, 2009)

Hello bostarus;  I was already to post a message to you that would have been a near twin to what Gunherhess sent.  He did the right thing.  The (sha.org) address is a very complete place to go and study all the things you experienced a few years ago.  Except now it covers just about every thing you need to know about old American bottles.  When the sha.org/bottles/index.htm is used, you will end up with an outstanding list of subjects that are covered better than any other sources.  It was put together by a Mr. Bill Lindsey who is also on this Forum.  It was started with the Bureau of Land Management, and is still managed by Bill after his retirement.  DO IT!!   Thanks Jack.   RED Matthews


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## bostaurus (Feb 18, 2009)

That was extremely helpful!  Thank you very much.  You guys are a treasure trove of information.


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## glass man (Feb 19, 2009)

I OWE BILL A GREAT DEBT OF GRATITUDE FOR THE WORK HE HAS DONE! THOUGH I HAVE COLLECTED FOR YEARS ,A LOT OF MIS-INFORMATION WAS AROUND IN MY BEGINNING YEARS.[1970S] SUCH AS "GRAPHITE PONTIL" WAS ,BECAUSE OF GRAPHITE THAT WAS USED,ETC.               JAMIE


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## RED Matthews (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi glassman;   Don't throw away the idea of graphite not being used.  Your letter seemed to say it wasn't used.  Did you find a specific reference to that in text?  I gathered from Willy Van den Bosche's book and others that it was used by dipping the heated punty rod in graphite paste, before the punty was dipped or rolled in sand, crushed glass powder and chips, powdered lead and iron dust from mold manufacturing; before it was attatched to the bottom of the bottle being made.  There just isn't much written on the subject. 
 One of the best books to get and read on early bottle forming in America is: "THE MOUTH-BLOWN BOTTLE" by Grace Kendrick.  I think it is #4 on my recommended books list in my homepage.  I learned of the use of powdered lead in that book, page 126; relative to the illustration of the improved pontil.  The center dot in the improved pontils was a drilled hole for venting the air out when the parison was blown in the mold.  The vent had to be cleaned with a pointed twist tool that made the dot become a cone.  The backing hole under that cleaning had to be cleaned with a wire rod.  That cone became a centering device in the bottom on bottles that were held in a snap case at about this same time of production speed demands.  
 So there is some food for thoughts!!  RED Matthews


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## RED Matthews (Feb 19, 2009)

Hi again glassman;  While I was out this afternoon to get med and supplies, I thought of another medium used for empontiling bottles.Instead of graphite paste, they used a paste of white lead.  This was most often used in the high push-ups in early wines and champagnes.  I have five or six examples of that application.  RED Matthews


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## glass man (Feb 20, 2009)

RED: THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE! I GOT THE INFO ABOUT THE GRAPHITE PONTIL BEING WRONG FROM THE LINK GUNTH[MATT] GAVE. IT IS UNDER "BARE IRON PONTIL". IT SAYS THAT THE A IRON ROD WAS PUT RIGHT ON TO THE BASE AND THE "GRAPHITE" LOOKING STUFF IS ACTUALLY FROM THE IRON. I AM BACK TO CONFUSED.[] OH WELL IT IS A NATURAL STATE FOR ME! JAMIE


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## RED Matthews (Feb 20, 2009)

Hello again glass man & those interested;  
 The punty rods to be used, were usually kept in a ready location on a bracket or wall edge in front of the glory hole or furnace opening, so that the glass contact end of the punty rod could be kept hot enough to contact the hot glass for empontilling.  They were then dipped on to a paste to give the rod a gripping capability.  
 There is graphite in the iron rod but not enough to be brought out of the iron in hot glass contact.  Graphite in a metal is trapped in its created shape in the iron.  
 > There are type "A" graphite inclusions which are usually Y shaped in form..
 > Then there is a type "B" inclusions are rosetts of graphite form.  This later was            modified by the casting process and became know as nodular cast iron.
 > The chilled cast iron formed type "D" inclusions which are dendritic and formed         
    in line as the metal cooled away from the chill generating iron contact form.

 When a plain small iron punty is used without any contact paste cover it often will create a punty contact, especially in Black Glass that will have a bluish color on the glass which is caused by picked up contamination dirt.  If the punty is dipped in the molten glass for some hot contact media it will most often be done at the glory hole in a crucible that is not ready for bottle making use.  Then it picks up floating gall that will cause impurity contamination in the pontil mark.

 There is just not enough written on these circumstances.  That is the type of thing I am working on.  RED Matthews .


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## glass man (Feb 20, 2009)

I THANK YOU RED! JAMIE


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## tigue710 (Feb 20, 2009)

here is a good example of a sand chip pontil, also known as a rough pontil (along with a few others) and confused with the disc pontil and sticky ball pontil.  All are a type solid iron bar pontil as the earliest references refer to, but there are slight differences in them, with the disc pontil sticking out the most.

 A sand chip pontil is just a rough edge of glass in a circular ring on the base and sometimes with in the circular ring also.  It does not have a mass form, just flakes and chips of glass adhered to the base.  It does not deform the base of the bottle or glass.

 The sticky ball pontil is almost the same and looks very slimier except the chips are only around the ring and there is a mass of glass under  the roughness, an extra sometimes very small amount of  glass adhered to the base along with, within and under the chips, not part of the bottle but part of the punty process.  It often does deform the base of the bottle or glass, and seems like an earlier method of the sand chip pontil

 The dics pontil is large disk of glass broken off in the base, much like an open pontil but closed, with no opening.  It is very uncommon.

 The bare iron pontil with out any remnant glass looks like a bit or bits of glass are missing, and is very common on English bottles

 Unfortunately the knowledge of exactly how and why these marks were made has been lost, and this is only a break down of the small almost insignificant difference between basically what could be all the same pontil mark, although evidence, no matter how minute, points to them having been made with different techniques...!

 and now the sand chip pontil... Finally!


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