# Ready to give up



## vll970 (Feb 17, 2008)

So I am almost ready to give up. I have been quietly reading the forum for months. I even asked the typical newbie questions about how you go about finding privies. I read books on bottles, on outhouse design, historical books about the area I live in, looked at Sanborn maps and...NOTHING. I have a tiny collection that mostly came from yard sales and a few good friends. I can't find a single place to dig, privy or dump. I spoke to old people who did some serious digging here back in their day, one even took me to the supposed location of an old bottle dump. And....still NOTHING. How on earth do you find all these privies?! Some guy here said he had already dug more than 300! 300...300.. it's not fare I can't even find one. I can't be leaving in an area where people didn't have to go to the bathroom...((


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## rlo (Feb 17, 2008)

do you live in politician land?  ya know they don't need privies!   goodness, where do you live?


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## appliedlips (Feb 17, 2008)

I second that.If you are looking for privies to country homes or in tiny towns with big lots,give it up..Put on your Sunday best and head to the Big City,find an old house,probe the property lines and start digging.


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## tigue710 (Feb 17, 2008)

it takes time, as with anything.  You have to do the work.  Keep at it and you'll find something.  Or call it quits if you dont want to.  None of us find magic bottle holes, we put hours upon hours of work and research into digging a few lonely bottles, and then half time we dont find anything good.  Some go years with out a good find.  Its more about enjoying what you learn along the way then bottles... all though bottles are the ultimate goal...

 Talk to that old timer more, have him show how and what to look for, how to dig.  I've seen people dig holes all over the place and miss all the bottles completely.  You need experience and a little help if you can find it!


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## vll970 (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who responded. I certainly didn't just expect to walk by a house and get an invitation . That's why I said I had spent a great amount of time reading and researching. I looked at very old photographs, maps etc. There is a fair amount of really old houses here but no one seems to be very receptive to me shredding their perfectly manicured lawn/ landscaping. I live on the island of Martha's Vineyard and let me tell you rich people do not like when you try to explore their properties. The old timer I was talking about told me that there were a lot of bottle dumps but I am yet to find one. I don't want to quit, I was just wondering how some of you guys find sooo many. If I find one this year I would be ecstatic. Probing also proved to be very difficult, soil is nothing but roots and rocks... The whole place is like it came out of a Robert Frost poem..
 Anyway, thank you all. I'll keep trying.


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## madpaddla (Feb 17, 2008)

Hitting the hay here.  But here are a couple ideas for you to think about.

 Why do we find so many?  Simple.....regarding bottles...where there are a few there must be more.  People liked to throw away stuff (duump) in the same area over extended amounts of time.  My first fump I found out about from someone I work with, she is about 50 now.  I asked her where she dumped garbage in the 40's.  About 1/4 mile down was where they dumped in the 1890's.

 Check Sanborn Maps.  Check the forum for the name and password.  They should have some great great maps for ya.  And dont look where there are buildings......look where there arent.  Regarding on the old maps.

 Best of luck ill check the post in the next few days.  Last thing for ya.  I have a theory that when we are looking for bottles is when our sense of glass is most involved.  After you find a dump and there are bottles  almost anywhere your senses diminish.  Buts its when you are starving for glass is when you senses are kennest.
 Madpaddla


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## Poeticallyinsane (Feb 18, 2008)

I've given up looking for old privies and what not. I've had no luck with those either. You could try what I've been doing...stick to big empty lots or wide open fields. I've found 88 bottles (its a small collection compared to most) in a large field by just wandering around and shoving dirt around with my shoes when I find piles of broken glass and if I find that there is broken glass beneath the surface, that's when I bust out my shovel. Dont give up just yet. You'll never know what you might have found if you dont try again...and again...and again...


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## Plumbata (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  madpaddla
> And dont look where there are buildings......look where there arent.  Regarding on the old maps.
> 
> Best of luck ill check the post in the next few days.  Last thing for ya.  I have a theory that when we are looking for bottles is when our sense of glass is most involved.  After you find a dump and there are bottles  almost anywhere your senses diminish.  Buts its when you are starving for glass is when you senses are kennest.
> Madpaddla


 
 Quite true, for a beginner like me or you vll970, the presently extant structures tend to grab one's attention first, but after looking at enough obsolete street maps, topographic maps, old plat maps, and the always useful sanborns then you will start to see houses, people, roads and perhaps whole communities where there is nothing but nature showing now (cross reference with google earth, it is indespensable). The empty lots and old abandoned homesteads are your most likely bet for finding undug privys as well as the permission to dig them, since the more conspicuous properties were more likely to have been dug out by the old timers you spoke with back in the day and are more than likely to be owned by uptight blockheads now. Perhaps you can develop a spiel involving a dedicated anthropological perspective, and make the people feel personally responsible for helping you to preserve a quickly vanishing American history. Some people are tough, but enough grease of the right kind should do the trick. []

 vll970, if you are interested in digging dumps and never have done so before, then as a mere 20 year old I can say that finding dumps is easier than just about anything else. You have to be willing to cover lots of ground without expecting to come home at the end of the day with anything amazing, rather, calibrate yourself to just look for disturbed land, look for ravines, railroad land, look in the back of graveyards, by old bridges/docks, in and along streams, by rivers, stone piles, unusual stands of trees in the middle of town, or anywhere else that for some reason or another would never be used for building and legitimate use, or hasn't been, at least within the past 150 years. Look in old maps for vanished roads that lead to nowhere, or went by creeks or depressions, and investigate the area's appearance now. With the discovery of small shards of any antiquated consumer good, far larger truths are transferred. For every shard there was a whole bottle, and for every complete bottle you see there were probably 20 others tossed out with it. Keep in mind that the surface of the ground is for all intents and purposes a flat plane, so it follows that even in a mere 1 inch under the surface of a given area there is a great deal of room for things to be hidden. 6 feet down and you can find yourself in an entirely different world.

 Just today, I discovered a huge dumpsite with no cap layer, far larger than the one I wrote my post about, here in Champaign where the only other dump i found was from the 40s, and not because I wasnt looking for dumps either. This town is flat as hell, and home to UIUC, which caused an explosion of development that has covered up alot of the good digging areas. The stuff on top of this dump was pre-prohibition. Pieces of SS cokes, ancient milks, slugplated beers and sodas, large crockery jugs and much more were everywhere. In some parts, i was walking on top of almost pure glass and pottery, indicating to me that it was a bottle dumpsite with ash tossed in, rather than an ash dump with bottles intermixed. I have reason to believe, based on studying my maps, that it may have been used since the 1870s, and may be one of the first and best town dumps. I didn't go out with a shovel, just my eyes, and I came back with alot more than just a stupid bottle. I found an acre of them, and though i didnt dig, based on what I have experienced I know it is probably the best dump I have right now. Just know that you can find the bottles that we all love if you cover enough ground and keep in mind the general things one should look out for while ya do so.

 Keep your eyes open and you will find what you want, and ive said it a hundred times, but no amount of watching what others are digging, no amount of  thinking about it or getting jealous, will replace the rewards of just going out and looking for yourself. Don't despair; dig. You don't need to find bottles to be successful, because every hole you dig is a different learning experience. At least you will know what general areas are _not_ good to dig. Sooner or later you will find some really good glass, if you don't give up beforehand. 

 And madpaddla, your theory is interesting, but based on how I interpret it, I can't quite agree exactly. Finding the first dumpsite, and then every one thereafter only serves to hone and temper one's "glass sense." If you are starving, but don't know how to hunt or even what it is you are hunting for, then no amount of emaciated anguish alone will be enough to show you the way to your satisfaction. It is experience (or the pure absorbtion of others' experiences), and though the sense will not need to be turned on full blast while you are in the midst of a dump, it certainly does help when trying to look into the past and see how they dumped that stuff, and where the oldest areas are, etc. Then, after excercizing ones mind in a place of such glassy abundance, one will be able to go elsewhere and use the implications of  the envoronmental cues that you never even percieved before to your own bottle diggin' benefit.


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## Plumbata (Feb 18, 2008)

Also, if no one saw you disobey the "No Trespassing" sign, did it ever really happen?  [] []

 [edit]  I was wondering, are there people here in enough numbers to make it worth my time that actually have the patience (or active vocabulary) to read, care about, and perhaps respond in kind to my more lengthy messages, or should i keep things, uhh... short and sweet?

 I'm still new to this, so let me know how is best to communicate with the archetypical bottle digger.

 More pictures, less talk?


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## deepbluedigger (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL: Plumbata
> 
> I was wondering, are there people here in enough numbers to make it worth my time that actually have the patience (or active vocabulary) to read, care about, and perhaps respond in kind to my more lengthy messages, or should i keep things, uhh... short and sweet?
> 
> ...


 
 Keep it coming. I kinda liked your take on bottle hunting. I've been doing it for 30+ years and (i) pretty much agree with everything you said, but you said it better than I would have done and (ii) wish I could find a whole acre of bottle dump with some good age to it!

 It takes time and patience and legwork, and sometimes a little bit of luck, but interesting finds always happen in the end. My digging partner and I are currently digging a small site that I've been looking for for the past 15 years (and yes, it was definitely worth the wait!). So don't be ready to give up too easily vll970: hang in there. 

 Pictures are also good though. []


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 18, 2008)

Heres some maps by the USGS 1887. Look for old access roads and stuff.
 http://docs.unh.edu/nhtopos/MarthasVineyard.htm


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## tigue710 (Feb 18, 2008)

Marthas vineyard is a tough place to dig...  I know a few guys who used to dig out there, and they had a TOUGH time.  They told me the best dumps were along the water though, look for inlets and wet land type areas, and probe them along the edges.  Check the ponds too...

 Google earth is the best for satellite images with the birds eye view which lets you look at areas with out having to walk through them.

 Personally I would take the ferry to the main land.  New Bedford has some good toc dumps.  You can shoot over and dig some bottles, and still look around the vineyard when you have time...


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 18, 2008)

> archetypical bottle digger.


 That's archevillain.... muaaahhaaahhaaa


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## bottlediger (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL: tigue710
> 
> it takes time, as with anything.  You have to do the work.  Keep at it and you'll find something.  Or call it quits if you dont want to.  None of us find magic bottle holes, we put hours upon hours of work and research into digging a few lonely bottles, and then half time we dont find anything good.  Some go years with out a good find.  Its more about enjoying what you learn along the way then bottles... all though bottles are the ultimate goal...
> 
> Talk to that old timer more, have him show how and what to look for, how to dig.  I've seen people dig holes all over the place and miss all the bottles completely.  You need experience and a little help if you can find it!


 
 very well said Tique

 Digger Ry


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## KentOhio (Feb 18, 2008)

I asked her where she dumped garbage in the 40's.  About 1/4 mile down was where they dumped in the 1890's.
 [/quote] 

 1/4 mile down, that's a lot of digging! I hope you found something way down there!


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## Plumbata (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  lobeycat
> 
> vo-cab-u-whatsis??? i'm not shure I no's wut yur sayin. wut's wit al dem fancee wurds. dat dares a long massage. startid thinkin bout mi foots fun gus bout afta the thurd sentunce. and pleez stop tiepin so fast eye'm havin a herd tyme keypin up.
> 
> thayks. ricky.


 
  Your wit astounds me.

  huh-larious.


  Seriously though, i have nothing against you and don't want to find anything that revises my current opinion,  I am here for the learning and to help add to it, just like many other folk here. My preferred style of communication is a bit tedious to some of the people I know, so it should follow that the same holds true here. You don't need to feign idiocy in order to illustrate your point... whatever it might be.

  Tigue is spot on with his suggestion to check along the water. Is it possible to take some time to walk the entire perimeter of the island? I suppose islands have different refuse disposal guidelines than inland places, and when I visited Smith Island and Chincoteague Island years ago, the rummage shop owners said that they found alot of bottles in/near shallow saltwater coves, and around old foundations. I have no personal experience in that kind of environment though.


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## capsoda (Feb 18, 2008)

Hey Stephen, Welcome to the forum. When I was your age I was full of piss and vinegar and wanted to know everything and i went out and started learning on my own. You see, back then everyone didn't go to college because their parents couldn't aford it so the rest of use had to do it own our own.

 Vocabulary and intelegence is a great thing but hasn't helped me find a single bottle but preserveriance and common sense have. It doesn't take alot to read your long post but many of our diggers work for a living and want to dig every minute they are not so they will read your first or second  post and them pass them buy unless you load each one with information that is pertanant to every digger. We do have members on theis forum that do normally write long posts but they come on once in a while to give us some really great information. Shorter and sweater and to the point is great and when necessary long is good.

 The greatest digger I ever meet had no formal education and thought that for a southern boy I said the durndest thangs. Education is great when ysed for the good of all.

 You will find some of the best digging advise and info in the world on this forum and probably a millenium worth of combined experance. You will also find that they are great people. We have our quirks and you have to watch out for som like that Lobeycat. He is a sneaky critter and then there is *ME* cause I will crack on when I can!!!.


 And Victoria (I Love That Name) as a bottle digger you should never give up. Just go at it from a new angle. These guys will help you out.[]


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## mikmis (Feb 18, 2008)

i think you write verry well plumbata and  often have a hard time getting my point across clearly.your post may be verry long but are verry informitive.keep up the good work .
   what you said about the no tresspassing signs .i can't tell you how important it is to get permission from the owner .only from personal experiance you risk the chance of loosing the privlage of being able to dig your favorite or best diging site.i have one that i truly regret. i have been banished from for not getting permission and my buddy has free reign to dig there because he asked .the only thing i have left is i know where the pontiled pit is and ill take it to my grave .[][]


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## tigue710 (Feb 18, 2008)

har, being a know it all I dont care much for other know it alls, especially when they havnt been doing anything long enough to know what to know it all about!  I know that for certain.

 Keep at it you will find bottles...  sometimes they are deep







 other times right on the surface...


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## passthebottle (Feb 18, 2008)

> sometimes they are deep


 
    Did someone yell "come out with your hands up, or i'll shoot"
    That is deep brother, real deep!


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## appliedlips (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL: Plumbata
> 
> The empty lots and old abandoned homesteads are your most likely bet for finding undug privys
> 
> ...


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## tigue710 (Feb 18, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  passthebottle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 thats the madpaddla getting caught with my lucky shovel!


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## downeastdigger (Feb 18, 2008)

Hey vll970  ,  do you have a probe?  I grew up near the Cape, Hanover Mass.  Thats where I started digging back in the '70s.  There was lot's to dig there back then.  Was there much of a population on the Vineyard back before the turn of the century?  If not, your efforts may be futile.  I have found some of the best dump on the edge of salt marshes,  behind early sea side homes.  They are often where the salt marsh ends, and the tree line begins.  They can be very isolated and difficult to get to,  but that can be a blessing too, because it gives you a better chance that they haven't been discovered yet.
 Anything you find that is embossed Marthas Vineyard will be valuable, no matter how common.  I had a couple of pyro glazed milk bottles from Marthas vineyard that sold for $75 each.
 Privy wize, like the guys say, you'd have to have a cluster of early homes in downtown grid area on the center of the island.  Otherwize they through the trash in the ocean.  I'd bet you money that there isn't a deep privy full of trash on the island.  But if you hit a neighborhood dump, down the end of a road somewhere, you could hit a jackpot.  Good luck !  The ground is still frozen up here in Southern Maine, I can't wait to get out, I in a dry spell for finding new dumps or privies lately.


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## madpaddla (Feb 18, 2008)

Tigue taught me the technique.  It works well.  He makes the holes at the bottom so large, Heck I even saw him at the bottom of a hole with a lawnchair and a red bull.  Just playin but he did show me that deep is better.  Oh  lets do that again mon.
 Madpaddla


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## tigue710 (Feb 18, 2008)

Digging tomorrow on familiar but undug ground Ben.  Just me and the dub dog in Synagogue city!  Give me a ring if your out...


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## Plumbata (Feb 19, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  mikmis
> what you said about the no tresspassing signs .i can't tell you how important it is to get permission from the owner .only from personal experiance you risk the chance of loosing the privlage of being able to dig your favorite or best diging site.i have one that i truly regret. i have been banished from for not getting permission and my buddy has free reign to dig there because he asked .the only thing i have left is i know where the pontiled pit is and ill take it to my grave .


 
  You are absolutely correct, but if the sign was posted by the city on city land, then I don't think asking permission would do any good, which is more what I was getting at. But then again, I could be wrong, as I have never tried to do so before, and I would be happy to be wrong about that anyway!. I am sorry to hear about your banishment, maybe you should shave your head and take some botox, go to a costume shop, and then try asking for permission again! Haha, it might work. []



> ORIGINAL:  lobeycat
> I'm one short step from a plunge into the dark, cold abyss of insanity. [/align]I thoroughly enjoyed your manifesto and sincerely look forward to your next. While my attention span and intelligence (or lack there of) are severely limited I will endeavor to perceiver and muddle my way through. Keep up the good work and please take no offense to my ramblings.[/align] [/align]Ricky.[/align]


 
   Tell me about it, my parents thought I was autistic because I didn't speak until I was almost 3, at which point I started talking in full sentences. Now, I am plagued with the worry of developing schizophrenia, which will probably happen if I don't watch out. I keep trying to push the boundaries to human perception, and I may break through if I push hard enough. I know that my manifesto (lol) was not particularly eloquent, and thus it doesn't take much brainpower to read the crap, rather, patience. I hope that you remain sane, I am not offended, and YOU sir, keep up the _better_ work.

 {edit, forgot to add this} 





> ORIGINAL:  appliedlips
> While I agree with alot of what you wrote,this part could not be further from the truth.Most vacant properties,in areas with good prives to dig have been dug shortly after they became vacant.Years ago,most diggers never thought of seeking permission to dig privies and just dug vacants.ALOT of diggers still do.I used to dig only vacants,but now I dig almost all permissioned,backyards.I find many less dug privies,now.In the case of small,obsolete villiages or other vacant areas the privies will normally be lacking good amounts of trash.They would have burned or dumped.They would have also dug shallow privies with no intention of throwing trash in them.These shallow,glassless pits in combination with large lots make them almost impossible to find.Good luck to everyone,Doug


 
 Invaluable knowledge, thanks for being willing to correct me. I guess I was thinking that a digger back in the day would focus on places where it was clear people with money for the good bottled products would have lived. I had no idea that one does/did not need permission to dig the vacant lots, which is good to know. Could you elaborate any more on the legality of just going and digging up a lot? Also, for larger lots, lets say where there is just a forest now, how far away typically would they place a privy, and if there are wells near the homestead foundations, how far away from that water source would they deem it acceptable to place an outhouse, if that was a concern?



> ORIGINAL: tigue710
> 
> har, being a know it all I dont care much for other know it alls, especially when they havnt been doing anything long enough to know what to know it all about!  I know that for certain.


 
  I remember a claim of yours, stating "I can price a bottle better than any book." You certainly are quite full of, err, "ability" sir, and it is understandable that you have such a high opinion of your prowess in this context, I mean, all the pretty bottles in your collection _certainly_ must prove it.....

  And in addition, I have made it a point to NOT claim perfect knowledge of any topic, even when I could write a book on it or when my audience expresses their total lack of proficiency in the subject. I just try to help, in the ways that I can, in the language that I am comfortable with. Just because I know a great deal, it does not follow that I am a person like you. If you read my post, you would see how I gladly claim membership to the "beginner" group immediately, and then offer what I think I know. I was not about to say that I know everything about bottles, and I never will, as I understand intrinsically the folly of such a way of thinking. Read some psychology books and you may understand what I mean. Personally, I sense that your know-it-all status feels threatened by someone like me, who given the time you have had, could exceed your own ability in this field which you seem to define yourself by. And_ I know that for certain. _

  But you have _no idea_ how complex I am, nor how precocious I was as a child. I have been collecting and learning about the world using a hands-on, visuokinesthetic style of a depth that no one I have ever met quite understands. I remember when I was 5 and was visiting the Shenandoah Valley with my family, where we went to look at the ruins of a Revolutionary War era brick building. Know what I remember seeing? I saw the building in perfect shape, bustling with people interacting with eachoher, all dressed in 18th century clothes; I saw a great vibrancy of life and activity where now there is bare, broken brick. That, and not the ruins, is what sticks in my memory, the reality of everything that was beneath the shallow present appearance, the deep reality of the past, and such is the way that I see things now, with 15 extra years of knowledge and experience to help me look even deeper within the reality of all that makes up what is, which far exceeds the detail of what I can see with my 20/13 eyes alone, which is quite a bit, let me tell ya. When I hold something, I instantly see how and when it was (or could have been) made, and sense the properties of the elements that are arranged in its tangible form. By the time I was 9, I was so good at perceiving (not knowing, like you) the past, in all of its complexity, that multiple dealers and collectors made a point to comment that I had "The Eye." Being born with a universally useful, deeply intuitive, and at times uncomfortably insightful common-sense ability is a bit better than being an analytical know-it-all regarding a subject as painfully narrow as American glass, eh? I have been serious about digging local bottles for all of what, 8 months now? Nationally available bottles are comparatively boring, and thus, such a proficiency does not interest me all that much yet. In a dozen other fields however, including rocks/fossils/minerals which I believe you enjoy as well, I have been absorbing knowledge and amassing collections for *15 years*. What were you doing when you were 5, playing with toys? I didn't have a social life as a (younger) child because I was too busy learning and collecting every single thing and bit of knowledge that I could get my hands on, with a fervor I wish I could recapture now. Another reason was that everyone else my age was so darn childish, which was excessively annoying to me. Unfortunately, it seems that little has changed. [] 

  You pushed, and I followed Newton's third law of motion. It would have been nice to have a level of mutual respect, but you chose against it with the first thing you said to me on this site. You are an excellent digger and can offer the world a great deal of good knowledge, at least if you can someday realize that you can NEVER _know_ it all. You can, however, _perceive_ it.



   And Victoria, I apologize for participating in the hijacking your thread. I am not the best one here to give advice, but I sure do intend only the best. The only reason that you feel so defeated is because you lack the access to a database of experience, ranging from the most hellish horribleness to the most celestial magnificence, which so many good people here have built up over their years of collecting. It sounds like your island is quite the pain, but give it time and you will come to understand how to exploit its buried resources. I found my first dump, from the late 1940s, when in 4th grade while exploring the woods with a good friend of mine, and we dug it like the kids we were. Only 10 years later did I randomly walk on top of a place worth excavating. Don't EVER give up, because as my experience has shown, some of the best finds in my life have happened completely at random, without consciously looking for them at that time. Just be open to* all* that comes your way, and at some point in life you will know how to make use of it. Good luck.


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## capsoda (Feb 19, 2008)

Hum baba, hum baba, hum baba bouw bouw. He sure does. We are in the learning curve now baby! [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]

 We all love glass.[]


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## Plumbata (Feb 19, 2008)

And not to stoop to your level for too long tigue, but if you are wondering if i'm socially acceptable nowadays as well, then look and decide for yourself:


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

.....


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 19, 2008)

Oh oh, I'm sensing a repeat of a few days ago coming on. Should we ban this thread now or shut up while we can?


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

.....


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## madpaddla (Feb 19, 2008)

Tigue:
 I'll be throwing some in the same spot.  See ya there if not I'll give ya a call either way.
 B digs


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

when you digging Ben?  Me and Ed are metting up around 11 in your old home town...


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## capsoda (Feb 19, 2008)

As I said Victoria, Never give up and *WELCOME TO THE FORUM*. []


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## Plumbata (Feb 19, 2008)

> He y I've gotten a few fat chicks drunk before too...
> 
> I was merely pointing out that you've taken the thread away from the original topic. As far as your personal life go's I dont care. I'm sure your a stud muffin. But what bothers me about you is your misleading "wealth of information". Give it a rest, this isnt a thesis, its a bottle club! Your way to young to have it all figured out, but on a serious note I'm sure you'll add quite a lot to the hobby once you get past your ego barrier and finds thing are not quite what you were expecting when you thought you had it all figured out.
> 
> ...


 
  Yes sir, I've gotten some fatties drunk as well, but they deserve love and attention just like everyone else. Dude, I am not seeking validation from you or anyone else, and it is not necessary. I just look inward and find my strength. I am not a "stud muffin" and hate such an idea and the people who fall into that shallow and exploitive category. The point of the picture was to show that I wasn't some scheisty looking cretin, as you were probably hoping, that is all. Those girls are incredibly sweet and good people, and their shoulders are closer to the camera hence the apparent wideness, but it wouldnt matter if they were fat anyway. One of them is my patient and loving girl of 2 1/2 years, so thanks for making another personal attack, but as you said I set myself up for it, or whatever. I gather that you are likewise in a relationship, and I hope she loves you for the person you are, underneath the facade that you present here. If I wrote a thesis and juxtaposed it with my ramblings here, then this all would look like the chicken scratch that it is. I don't know what was all that misleading about what I wrote unless it was misunderstood, as I composed it in good faith and said I was a beginner, so if you have something better to replace it with then do it, rather than make insulting and unsubstantiated claims. Correct me respectfully like the wiser Doug did. We are here to learn and help others learn. I know via my psychology curriculum that the only thing we ever know is that we _know_ NOTHING. All that we believe we know is a combination of our incomplete perceptions with our unique personal experience. That is why some people are more excited about a blank ABM than another person is about one of their 100 historical flasks. It all has to do with the vagaries of faulty human perception, which you seem to think are an embodiment of absolute, immutable truth. It was you and madpaddla arranging to go dig that took this post away from the original topic, involving far more posts than I have taken up here, with far less of substance that is added to the core reason that this thread exists, and please deny that. I was trying to make a couple points that all diggers, new and old, could possibly make use of, the implications of which I feel you have missed. 

  The point of participating on this forum is to spread the love and knowledge of bottles, to let beginners know that they can and should aspire to greatness in this hobby, and if you go on acting the way you do then you may discourage many of the lurkers here, people who certainly haven't experienced all that you have, some of whom haven't even gotten the chance yet to experience the little pittance that i have been exposed to. Can't you see how hypocritical it is to read what I wrote and think that I am a lowly know-it-all, and then bash me based upon your faulty perceptions, while you go out and clearly embody an arrogance which I have specifically tried to distance myself from? If you walk around like you are the best of the best, then sooner or later someone will put you in your place, or at least try to change the way you think. It seems that you are more the one that enjoys validation, and obtain it by slyly denigrating our fellow diggers. Not to say you are the worst one here in that regard, by any means, but I sense that the trait it is there and it bothers me.

  I know that I don't have it all figured out, and know that I never will. All that anyone can do is strive for knowledge and the understanding to implement it, and to achieve some sort of subjective perfection of perception based upon one's unique attributes. Just because I use the kind of language I know, there is no logical correlation that I have a big ego. I am shy as hell and in social interaction, and I speak and act like the people that I am with. I try to absorb rather than regurgitate myself everywhere. I have no desire to assert my dominance over them, because I know intrinsically what it feels like to be improperly judged as a result of incomplete data. We can learn volumes from the most humble lives, so I try to remain open to those overlooked truths. Do you? Just yesterday I had a half hour conversation with a 32 year old homeless man who was by the dump I found, and I learned some incredible things about the world that I would have never known had I judged him by the cover and went on my way. The nature and states of a singular atom are far too complicated for any human to truly know; a truth as clear as day in my mind, so to claim what you claim at times is a showcase of your own cosmic ignorance. What upsets me is that you seem to think that_ you_ have figured it all out, yet instead of trying to help this well-read and aspiring digger by communicating directly with her mind and telling her all there is to know, you offer several lines, say that everything I wrote is bogus, and then arrange to go dig with someone. And _I_ took it away from the original topic?

  Paracelsus would probably enjoy the company of a fellow iconoclast and freethinker actually, just a thought.  
  And it is not that I don't like you, I just don't like to be around or support people that _act_ like you. You make me want to start fanatically collecting coins again rather than continue digging, if this is what I should expect from certain glass collectors. I already know how you feel about me.

  The revision of your claim is far more in line with what I am getting at, thanks for stating it.

  And it seems that imagination is one of the reasons that we both dig and collect. Many young people play video games and watch TV because they can't derive enjoyment from objects that are superficially non-dynamic. They like having their entertainment presented to them instead of creating it themselves. It is good that you were created as a perceptive individual, just keep in mind that the gifts you possess may not be shared by certain others in this hobby, and their struggles are not due to an inherent inferiority. They are just different, so please try to accept that and help them find what they need from within.

  And if this dialogue constitutes a reason for getting banned from this forum, then I see no need to remain here anyway.


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

Lets not take it any farther here...


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## Plumbata (Feb 19, 2008)

edit - sounds good man. Take care and know that i still respect you as the digger and historian you are, despite our rather explosive dialogue.


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

Sometimes the best advice is saying nothing at all.  Bottles are just about everywhere.  If I said to look along the stone walls, then the bottles would be under the barn, if I said to look under the barn, then they would buried in a pit...

 It's very hard for us to give good advice as to where to look for bottles, except to say to look everywhere!  You just never know where a bottle will show up... there are no rules, just guide lines.  Look for the places people couldn't use most of the time...

 I do know that they will show up in the marshes, but I dont know how or exactly where!  Good luck, and I hope you do find something soon...


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## lexdigger (Feb 19, 2008)

Don't give up just yet! If you want to dig privies you need to be in a fairly good sized town. Usually if you just explain what you want to do, assure them that you won't tear up the yard, and offer to share the finds you will have a decent success rate. For every No you are one step closer to your next Yes... it's the laws of probability. Once you find your first privy, the rest will be easier. Not every dig will always go as planned and even the best diggers still get skunked every now and then. Not every privy is full of good bottles to, alot of them are full of busted up stuff and a few slicks. The main thing to do is try to not overcomplicate it. It's not rocket science. You poke the ground for a soft spot, lay out a tarp, and dig a hole. If you find some bottles then you did good and if you don't then you'll have to Try Again! You will hit streaks where you will dig alot of bottles in a short time and other streaks where you won't be able to dig any good bottles over a long period of time. Every time you dig a spot that's one less spot to dig! Chris


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## vll970 (Feb 19, 2008)

Many thanks to everyone who offered advice. To the rest, I had no idea I could start such a "diatribe" with an innocent question. Please set my thread free of pissing contests. Much appreciated. 
 Now back to the Quest of the Newbie as I think this thread may prove to be useful to many others to come. I have located the foundation of a really old brick factory around 1870, right by the water. A large portion of the chimney still stands. I also found old pictures that show how it used to look. Do you think this would be a good spot? If yes, it's a huge area, so where should I start my search. 
 To answer a few of the questions about the island if anyone is still interested.Yes this island was really developed back in the day, to a large extent, even more so than it is today. There was a train, at least four seaports, three bustling towns with doctors, lawyers, restaurants (some of which still stand), a huge variety of stores. The richest people were involved in whaling. Also, there were many large farms. We do have a state forest but outside of that, everything is privately owned with a huge emphasis on preservation/ conservation and the like which makes this so difficult. It's nontheless a very unique place. We even have an active Indian tribe. For all these reasons, I would love to find something local. I have looked at Sanborn maps, but they are mostly of the main downtown areas which are densely built now. How do you identify the outhouse on those? Just small structures at the end of properties? 
 I am going to keep trying. I don't have a probe. I would like to get one though. Any suggestions? How about metal detectors? Someone told me that whereever there is metal, there is glass. 

 Thank you all and happy digging...


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## tigue710 (Feb 19, 2008)

I'm glad to see I didnt chase you away.  I'm sorry for that.

 A metal detector can be very useful, but I still stick to the most useful tool you have at your disposal would be the other diggers you have meet.  Light a fire and get them out to show you some spots.  You can find them on your own but seeing a dump and digging in it will give so much more to work with.  

 The factory could be a very good place to find bottles.  Often the owner of the factory owned the houses and the land around.  They would pick a spot for the workers to dump their trash, often in a unusable piece of land close to the factory.  A good thing to look for is pieces of coal on the ground,  They often lead to a dump.  Low areas, wet areas, swampy marshy somewhere they could not or would not build or farm...


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## Plumbata (Feb 19, 2008)

I was looking at some of the satellite images of your island, and a couple areas jumped out at me. In the town of Edgarton, there is a pond called "Sheriff's Pond" that looks to be surrounded by trees, and is very close and north of what looks to be downtown. Granted, the ocean is everywhere, but in times when they weren't trying to extend the docks a few people probably threw stuff away in there. Then there is the town Vineyard haven/Tisbury(?), where there is a cemetery called Oak Grove, just north of state road. Maybe check in the back/west end where there seem to be trees? In the same town, there appears to be a baseball diamond right next to downtown! It is south of Beach street and west of lagoon pond road, and that land looks largely reclaimed to me. Perhaps check south of the field close to that finger of water? 

 Ive never dug a brick factory, but if it was abandoned before 1920 then there might be some good refuse inside the perimeter of where the old walls were, and if you see 1860/70s glass and such just outside the walls then that may mean that some garbage made its way into the backfill after they made the foundation.

 As tigue said earlier, your best bet is to look everywhere (especially the useless land he mentioned though)! This is not a science, as many have said. There is no good way of sensing what an area may hold unless you go investigate for yourself, as not many diggers there are going to want to give up their best secret dump spots. Nothing will prevent you from walking around and finding the small areas littered with the cinders and slag and unnatural dirt displaced by them in the past, though. []

 And yeah I shouldnt take small things so personally, especially on the friggin internet, lol. My apologies as well.


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## bearswede (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow... This thread matured right before our eyes! Kudos, all...


 Ron


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't know where all the divers are to suggest it so have you thought of taking up scuba? Dive...Dive!!!


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## vll970 (Feb 20, 2008)

I have to say, I am really afraid of diving but I have thought about it. Anyone here who lives close by willing to let me come along on a dig and watch? I would love to see it. Maybe that would help me find my own spot. And no one responded to my probe question. Any suggestions?


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## vll970 (Feb 20, 2008)

Wow. Thank you. I can't believe you can get all this from satellite images. I will check out these areas for sure. They are all probably on Preservation Trust land but it's worth a try. 
 The brick factory was abandonded in 1930. There is a house in the background on the old picture I found in this book about the island. It says that the house was the workers quarters who were all French (no idea why). There is nothing there now. I am not sure how to find the general location of this house as it seems the landscape has changed significantly and I am not sure how to judge distance from a photo, but I am thinking it had to have had an outhouse. Any thoughts?


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## tigue710 (Feb 20, 2008)

they probably did have an out house, and around workers quarters some good bottles can often be found.  In our area (southern New England) they often had drop shoot out houses close to water.  Instead of digging a hole in the ground they built the privy on a dock or out over the water and everything fell in...

 Try to find out if there was a dock for the factory because either way bottles will turn up around there.  Might be a couple feet down in the muck though...


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## tigue710 (Feb 20, 2008)

here is a link to buy a probe, I haven't tried this guy but he looks to know what he is doing and is a friend of a forum member Bram, (bottlediger) 

 I would ask him for at least a four foot probe....

http://www.cowboyblacksmith.com/probe.htm


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## cobaltbot (Feb 20, 2008)

That is a very nice place you live.  My Dad is from New Bedford and I've been there a time or two.  We'd take the Nantucket? Ferry island hopping. When I was a kid I used to dig in West Barnstable on vacations.  There is a forum member "Just Dig It" from New Bedford maybe he'd be willing to take you digging.  Most sandborn maps don't show the privys alot, but using the property lines they will give you an idea of where to search.  Along the back property lines and the corners would be the place to start but there are no set rules.  When you are out searching look for anything unusual sticking out of the ground, especially things like metal bands, old buckets, milk cans or granite wear pieces.  Good luck, keep at it and you WILL eventually find bottles.


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## lexdigger (Feb 20, 2008)

As far as the probe goes I'd say definatly get one! That's really the only way to go when your searching for privies and cisterns. Sometimes there may be a depression in the ground, but usually you wouldn't even know it was there untill you dig it. You definatly want to start out in the Downtown area that the Sanborn maps you talked about show. Even if a house down there has a tiny backyard, try to get permission. The fact is that the smaller yards can actually be better for finding pits because they had less options as to where to put them. I always start in the back corners and work my way around the property lines from there. The only way to really find out what it's like in your area is to get out and do it. Get a probe, find a pit, and dig it up. Don't let people tell you it's all been dug or there isn't anything in privies there untill you've seen it with your own two eyes. The town I'm in was dug up Years ago and besides that there isn't Anything good here anyways... get my drift? LOL Get a probe and you will double or triple your chances at finding old dumps to. You can only tell so much from looking at the top of the ground, you really need to be able to feel inside the ground a good four to six feet to know for sure if you've got something good to dig. Just keep after it and you will find what you're looking for.  Chris


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## Digs_in_MD (Feb 21, 2008)

As a complete newbie, my comments should be taken with a pillar of salt.  That being said:

 Try looking down - topographically, where refuse might have tumbled towards water or large/very old trees.  

 If you have a metal detector, remember that beeps may indicate other goodies.

 Widen your search on yours days off , widen your search as much as your car can handle - fieldtrips can be so much fun when in pursuit of a dream.

 If you have a local buddy, engage them in your interest.  Additional input is valuable even if from the most unlikely sources.

 Stay faithful to this site, for my short-term impression is that there is much wisdom to be gained here.

 Best luck and regards, 
 Katie


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## glass man (Feb 21, 2008)

I am pretty sure I have a privy in my back yard ,that I am not able to dig ,because of health problems. PLEASE COME DIG IT FOR ME AND WE CAN COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON HOW TO DEVIDE THE LOOT!


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## citydigger (Feb 21, 2008)

This reply is in regard to plumbata.

 Well said man.


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## vll970 (Feb 21, 2008)

Where are you located? I am not sure if the message was for me or capsoda.


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## vll970 (Feb 21, 2008)

Hi all,
 I have a tiny collection so far and none of it is very rare but wanted to share it and maybe get some info on some of my bottles. I couldn't find anything on some of them.
 Here it is. Please, don't laugh.[&o]

http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=6fpafloc.4dmuibsw&x=0&h=1&y=-6z4d8g


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## tigue710 (Feb 21, 2008)

love that kidney demijohn!  We all start somewhere, thats nothing to laugh about...  Wait untill you have so many you dont know what to do with them, then you can laugh!


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## GuntherHess (Feb 21, 2008)

Quite a lot of variation in that collection. Great Demijohn.


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## Plumbata (Feb 21, 2008)

I would LOVE to know the story behind that 1938 nazi bottle. Did you pick it up randomly at a sale, or do you know any background to it? I have no idea what it was used for or how rare it is but it may be just as valuable as that pontied demijohn, perhaps moreso to collectors of relics from that enigmatic regime. The slogan at the bottom was their national anthem, I believe, so it must be a pretty rare piece of early propaganda, or something of the like. Is it an all-metal bottle? 

 I really like that thing, lol. Nice stuff, seems like you know what to look out for.


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## tigue710 (Feb 21, 2008)

I missed that one.  That is cool!  That nazi stuff is real collectible...


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## capsoda (Feb 21, 2008)

Great German pill bottle and the demi is good too. You have a pretty nice collection going and it will only get better with time.


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## vll970 (Feb 22, 2008)

So here is the story on that german bottle..

 I am originally Bulgarian, so on my last visit to Europe, I decided to visit this really popular open market for antiques. It's quite impressive, right in front of the national cathedral, which has three enormous golden domes. It apparently took 4 tons of gold to cover the whole thing. Anyhow, there is a market that looks much like a farmers market but instead of tomatos and peppers, they sell everything from antique coins to all kinds of USSR and nazi collectibles. I think you guys would have really appreciated the place.
 So I wanted to get some bottles but then decided against it as they would have probably broken in my luggage on a 5,000 mile trip. Then I saw this old guy selling german stuff and there it was... I have seen many similar little flasks before, much more prominent in countries in Europe than in the US. HOWEVER, the really unique thing about this bottle is the fact that all of the German reich insignia is present at the same time. Typically there is either the eagle or the year with the swastika or maybe just "deutsche reich" and the year. As I knew this, I asked the guy if he knew anything more about it and he did say that in his 30 years in the business, he had only seen one more like it. The others, although fairly common, still cost about $50-80. He gave me a deal on this one since I bought a few other things - presents for people in the States. 
 Oh, and I forgot to mention, it isn't a pill bottle. It's a machine gun oil flask. It actually still has some of the oil in it. 
 As much as I find it unique and interesting, I also find it quite disturbing and creepy.
 The demijohn is actually my great grandmother's. She was born in 1898 and lived to be 103. My mom now uses as a vase.. I wish I could bring it back home to the US with me.
 I would love to know what you think about the Burnett bottle, as well as that really dark green no embossing bottle. ANY info on ANY of them would be greatly appreciated.


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## JGUIS (Feb 23, 2008)

Wow, I guess I was late to this party.  See how arguments go when mature people are involved?  I applaud you both.  Victoria, you've got a great start, it's all down to getting dirty now. As far as island digging, I'm clueless.  I have learned a few things that started as misconceptions on my part, when I first started digging.  One is about vacants.  Digging them isn't or ever was legal without permission.  The reason they were dug is because "most" of the time, it's neglected.  The owner lives out of town, they don't do anything productive with the property, so most people don't pay attention to weather someone is supposed to be there or not.  It's different around here.  People will walk up onto private property and ask me what I'm doing.  They won't own it, know the owner, or me, but think it's their god given right to know what I'm up to.  Just extremely nosey around here.  If I think I can use them for a dig, I'll talk, sometimes I just tell them to beat feet.  For the most part, I guess it depends on where you are in the US, but vacants were the first targets after civil war sites from what I know.  I do dig them if they haven't been dug, but they are few and far between.  As far as dumps go, I have to agree with the map theory to a point.  If a map in 1859 showed an empty lot behind Main St, and it showed empty again in 1875, and I went there tomorrow and found that the empty lot is a hillside dropping into a creek, I'd dig.  If it was a 100 acre farm 3 miles outside of town in 1859, and again in 1875, and tomorrow proves it to be in the middle of a subdivision, I'll pass.  The larger congregation of people in the dates you're looking for, and undeveloped land in the middle of those congregations should always produce dumps of some sorts.  As for probing privies in hard rocky ground, it should be easier when you slip into the buttery goodness of a poo layer.  I know probing here in the summer can make you look stupid sometimes, like riding the probe down to your face when you're not expecting to be in a hole.[]  Keep at it, we all got discouraged at some point, that's what's wrong with most of us now.[8D]


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## lexdigger (Feb 23, 2008)

The dark green bottle with no embossing, the one you're holding up to the light, is a black glass ale. It was blown in a three piece mold. Even though it's unembossed and not worth alot of money, it is still a nice bottle. When we dig those we know we're getting into some good age. Alot of them were made over in Europe and shipped to the U.S. 
 The small Burnett bottle is an extract. We dig them pretty regularly. Here's a slightly older version than the one you have. They aren't a popular category for collecting, but some extracts have interesting names and embossing.


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## aridice53 (Feb 23, 2008)

If you live near the coast, one good way to look for good sites to dig is to drive around in the spring and look across newly plowed field. Sometimes you'll see white pieces of shell strewn across sections of the field. This is a very good  indicator of a very old shell/trash pile. Make a note of the location and in the fall after the field is harvested, go back (or sometimes you can dig before it is planted). Most farmers don't care if you dig once the growing season is over. This always worked beautifully for me when I'd go out metal detecting.

 Hope this helps a little.

 Char


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## Mike O (Feb 23, 2008)

I have heard about a large dump I don't remember if it was on the vineyard or Nantucket. from what I have been told it has been pretty much hammered! I don't think you will have too much luck digging on the islands. The other big problem as you know living there is that the island is shrinking the coast is eroding pretty quickly and I would not be surprised if it has eroded 1 mile or more since the turn of the century, so any banks that were dumped on into the ocean are long since washed away. I think you will have to get on a ferry and come on over to the mainland like others have suggested. I am about 1 1/2 hours drive from like woods hole so come spring / summer if you want to take a drive I would welcome you to come up my way for some digging. I don't really have any great dumps lined up at this point but like everyone else out here I am always looking and you just never know.


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