# Confederate Statues or Losing Minds Over History



## OsiaBoyce (Feb 6, 2019)

So what ya think about em'? What do you think they represent? Think they should be removed from sight? Hate the Confederate flag? How does affect you and why?  Seems there have not been many worthwhile subjects here recently, so here's one. Anyone have forefathers that served in the Confederate Army? Yankee army?


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## coreya (Feb 7, 2019)

I find the removal of historical monuments and the expungement of historical facts to be akin to the book burnings done by the Nazi's but then I'm one of those deplorables who are supposed to hate everything. My family all immigrated (legally) from Germany and I have no problem with the relics of the past as they offer a teachable moment.


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## carling (Feb 10, 2019)

Ditto, Coreya.


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## Truth1253 (Feb 10, 2019)

New Orleans 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It’s now was stump for graffiti. How beautiful it that. And before the race baiting Liberal Democrats said something about it it never had graffiti all those years not once. 


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## Truth1253 (Feb 10, 2019)

coreya said:


> I find the removal of historical monuments and the expungement of historical facts to be akin to the book burnings done by the Nazi's but then I'm one of those deplorables who are supposed to hate everything. My family all immigrated (legally) from Germany and I have no problem with the relics of the past as they offer a teachable moment.



I agree. You should see my KKK collection pretty neat. I don’t condone it but it’s not like these are real objects of history and I love any kind of true history. 


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## Screwtop (Feb 11, 2019)

I do not support this movement of history eradification at all. History is filled with pain, suffering, terrible mistakes and selfishness, but we cannot change it! Political Correctness has gone haywire! These men depicted in these monuments were not evil slave owners, but rather defenders of their state and freedom. Folks see only what they are shown, and what the schools and history shows portray are slave owning, whip toting, bucktoothed southerners who hate civility. There were men like that. I am not denying that. But the overwhelming majority of southern soldiers did not want to fight against their home state, so they chose to defend it. It is the media's and schools agenda to portray the evil committed by the few, so they could lump the many good into the same category. I am sick of seeing monuments of my personal hero's being torn down, without any consideration of the real history behind it. These college kids run around screaming about how evil these men were, without even looking into their personal lives! Almost all ex-confederate soldiers went back to normal life after the war, some even advocating for black voting rights. Only a select amount of crapheads went to causing trouble. THINK before you DESTROY something that you don't understand. LEARN, before you demolish what you are CLUELESS about.


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## Cheryl Lee (Feb 12, 2019)

The bottom line is ... You can prohibit the Confederate flag, pull down every Confederate monument - but, it WILL NOT change the history of our country. We need to keep in mind - we live in the greatest nation in the world, but we'll always be a country that once condoned slavery. We are no different from other countries that have some history they'd rather eradicate. 
These that want them removed should not look at them as offensive, but as losers of a war ending the horrible era of slavery. They're pulling down the losers ... they should look up and smile thinking "we beat y'all and nothing will change that!"
You gotta remember where you've been, look at the ugly stuff - so as not to repeat it.


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## Screwtop (Feb 12, 2019)

Cheryl Lee said:


> The bottom line is ... You can prohibit the Confederate flag, pull down every Confederate monument - but, it WILL NOT change the history of our country. We need to keep in mind - we live in the greatest nation in the world, but we'll always be a country that once condoned slavery. We are no different from other countries that have some history they'd rather eradicate.
> These that want them removed should not look at them as offensive, but as losers of a war ending the horrible era of slavery. They're pulling down the losers ... they should look up and smile thinking "we beat y'all and nothing will change that!"
> You gotta remember where you've been, look at the ugly stuff - so as not to repeat it.




Good point, Cheryl.


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 12, 2019)

*Doesn't it seem strange that we built monuments to traitors and war-losers? 

 The worn-out defense which poses the Southern States fighting for their traditional interests against the unfair interests of the nation is a straw-man argument. 

 The real objection to taking down Confederate monuments is that this effort is perceived as an attack on confederate racial attitudes.  And, maybe that's what it is.  And, maybe it's about time, more than 160 years after the issue came to a head.*


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## WesternPA-collector (Feb 12, 2019)

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. Last year I saw a grave of a Confederate veteran in a Pennsylvania cemetery. The rebel flag from it was thrown into the weeds and hidden like a piece of garbage. I picked it up and put it back into it's holder. It's a matter of respect for the deceased.


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## Screwtop (Feb 12, 2019)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Doesn't it seem strange that we built monuments to traitors and war-losers?
> 
> The worn-out defense which poses the Southern States fighting for their traditional interests against the unfair interests of the nation is a straw-man argument.
> 
> The real objection to taking down Confederate monuments is that this effort is perceived as an attack on confederate racial attitudes.  And, maybe that's what it is.  And, maybe it's about time, more than 160 years after the issue came to a head.*






Let me be clear, this is not a matter of racism. Those who are tearing down the monuments make it a matter of racism, and a matter of treason. The South seceded when they thought the government was prodding into there personal lives, taxing all the crops grown down towards the South, and favored Northern industries and political figures. They fought for there homes, there families, there state and what they thought was there rights. Many of them could not bear to see there home state being invaded by an army sent out by the federal government. Yes, they lost the war. Yes, they seceded from the union. Yes, even a few of them approved of slavery. But here is the key factor: They were *Americans. *Right or wrong, they were Americans none the less. 

As for national interest, many, many, many people don't want to see these monuments go. Those who are calling for there removal protest in the streets as if these statues were alive, and waging war. The protests sometimes get violent and for what? A bronze stationary statue? With that being said, these are monuments to someones relatives. 3x great grandfathers, uncles, cousins... These are monuments to history, monuments to American men, monuments to an old, dead cause... You can't just change that.

The issue is much broader than what folks want to admit. Those wanting to tear down the statues want to erase history. You can't do that! If you erase something, what replaces it? You could put anything in its place! 

These are my opinions, and I mean no malice towards others of different opinions. I am just tired of seeing blind hate run rampant.


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## BF109 (Feb 13, 2019)

Screwtop said:


> Let me be clear, this is not a matter of racism. Those who are tearing down the monuments make it a matter of racism, and a matter of treason. The South seceded when they thought the government was prodding into there personal lives, taxing all the crops grown down towards the South, and favored Northern industries and political figures. They fought for there homes, there families, there state and what they thought was there rights. Many of them could not bear to see there home state being invaded by an army sent out by the federal government. Yes, they lost the war. Yes, they seceded from the union. Yes, even a few of them approved of slavery. But here is the key factor: They were *Americans. *Right or wrong, they were Americans none the less.
> 
> As for national interest, many, many, many people don't want to see these monuments go. Those who are calling for there removal protest in the streets as if these statues were alive, and waging war. The protests sometimes get violent and for what? A bronze stationary statue? With that being said, these are monuments to someones relatives. 3x great grandfathers, uncles, cousins... These are monuments to history, monuments to American men, monuments to an old, dead cause... You can't just change that.
> 
> ...



Well said, Screwtop!  It's shameful what's happening.  And as far as the South being traitors, the British used the same label in 1775.


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## Huntindog (Feb 13, 2019)

If you forget the path you walk, the trail ahead can be very dark.....


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 13, 2019)

BF109 said:


> Well said, Screwtop!  It's shameful what's happening.  And as far as the South being traitors, the British used the same label in 1775.



*How many statues of George Washington did the British erect? *


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## Screwtop (Feb 13, 2019)

Harry Pristis said:


> *How many statues of George Washington did the British erect? *



This is a different situation, Harry.


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## Harry Pristis (Feb 13, 2019)

Screwtop said:


> This is a different situation, Harry.



*No, it's pretty much the same situation: antagonism, fighting, surrender, national reconciliation.  The difference is that the Brit's don't believe that "The Empire will rise again!" *


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## Screwtop (Feb 13, 2019)

The brits lost. They wouldn't erect statues of there conquerors. Besides, we are two separate nations. 

Billy yank, or Johnny reb, it was Americans fighting for a cause, that's the difference in this situation.


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## historic-antiques (Feb 13, 2019)

To All Who Sympathize with Confederate Statues and Symbol:
​I too am a lover of history, I appreciate great deeds of valor and humanity - regardless of which sides he/she may have supported.  Yes, I even think it's important to know about Hitler and Nazism, and certainly about the brilliance and heroics of people like Robert E. Lee and others.  We know where we're going and what we should be doing, if we know where we came from.​​That being said, re-inventing history, deniers, and people who glorify the most catastrophic and inhumane treatments of human beings - be it the Nazi death camps or slave plantations - is very common today, almost becoming "chic," fashionable, and justifiable.  This is where I stop, most definitely.  And this is where we have to think what all these monuments and symbols mean, how they affect people's thinking, and how we use them to educate our national/international public about the deep social/moral issues they represent - not simply that so and so was a great leader, or soldiers fought for their families or against taxes, etc.  The effects of their actions went FAR beyond their homes, and negatively affected millions of people... even to this day.​​Thus I have no problem with Confederate monuments and symbols, so long as educational content is added to their plaques about what slavery meant to African families, forced into bondage.  Did Gen. Lee fight for this, or was he simply zealously loyal to Virginia?  What might they symbolize to our long-term social/cultural history, etc. etc.  ​​An uneducated and misinformed public is the greatest threat to democracy and our national ideals set forth in our Declaration of Independence (i.e. "...all men are created equal..."), our Constitution (guaranteed due process, eligibility for asylum, etc.), and symbolized by our Statue of Liberty.​


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## Screwtop (Feb 13, 2019)

Well said.



Here is a quote from Lee just as war was inevitable back in early 1861.

"With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the army, and save in defense of my native state, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword..."


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## historic-antiques (Feb 13, 2019)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Doesn't it seem strange that we built monuments to traitors and war-losers?
> 
> The worn-out defense which poses the Southern States fighting for their traditional interests against the unfair interests of the nation is a straw-man argument.
> 
> The real objection to taking down Confederate monuments is that this effort is perceived as an attack on confederate racial attitudes.  And, maybe that's what it is.  And, maybe it's about time, more than 160 years after the issue came to a head.*



Harry - I think we are talking about two different situations that emerge nowadays.  On one hand we have your mundane white supremacists, KKK-types, largely uneducated and misinformed, who rally around monuments and use them to somehow glorify slavery, racism, and hate from the past, and to justify them today.  They attempt to use something or somebody "great" to make them feel better and bolster their social and moral values in the eyes of the public.  They use monuments and symbols entirely and fraudulently wrong.  I agree with your statement at this point.

On the other hand, we have people who genuinely admire the courage and brilliance of Confederate leaders and their soldiers (and of Union leaders/soldiers for that matter), regardless of their views of racism and slavery.  They do not use monuments and other symbols to justify and legitimize their social/political and moral values, much less to popularize them

I fall in the latter camp.  The problem is usually there is very little or no educational value attached to these monuments and symbols.  Included on their plaques should be what the noted person or place meant to Africans who were torn from their homes, thousands of miles away, and forced into deadly slavery; what slavery meant to our nation, socially, culturally and politically - then and now.  I feel monuments are OK, so long as they include this type of educational component.

Otherwise as we know, uneducated, misinformed citizens are the greatest threat to democracy, and to our Founding Father ideals of "...all men are created equal..." and due process/asylum eligibility, and to the values symbolized by our Statue of Liberty.


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## historic-antiques (Feb 13, 2019)

OsiaBoyce said:


> So what ya think about em'? What do you think they represent? Think they should be removed from sight? Hate the Confederate flag? How does affect you and why?  Seems there have not been many worthwhile subjects here recently, so here's one. Anyone have forefathers that served in the Confederate Army? Yankee army?



Hi OsiaBoyce:  As I mentioned in this thread to another poster, I think we are talking about two different situations that emerge nowadays.  On one hand we have your mundane white supremacists, KKK-types, largely uneducated and misinformed, who rally around monuments and use them to somehow glorify slavery, racism, and hate from the past, and to justify them today.  They attempt to use a great person or event to make them feel better and bolster their social and moral values in the eyes of the public.  They use monuments and symbols entirely and fraudulently wrong.

On the other hand, we have people who genuinely admire the courage and brilliance of Confederate leaders and their soldiers (and of Union leaders/soldiers for that matter), regardless of their views of racism and slavery.  They do not use monuments and other symbols to justify and legitimize their social/political and moral values, much less to popularize them

I fall in the latter camp.  The problem is usually there is very little or no educational value attached to these monuments and symbols.  Included on their plaques should be what the noted person or place meant to Africans who were torn from their homes, thousands of miles away, and forced into deadly slavery; what slavery meant to our nation, socially, culturally and politically - then and now.  I feel monuments are OK, so long as they include this type of educational component.

Otherwise as we know, uneducated, misinformed citizens are the greatest threat to democracy, and to our Founding Father ideals of "...all men are created equal..." and due process/asylum eligibility, and to the values symbolized by our Statue of Liberty.​


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 13, 2019)

"I have no problem.............so long as a plaque is added." From this statement it would seem you do have issues with these monuments, what are they? Why add a plaque, do they not say enough already? These monuments were erected in memory of the lost lives of the men and boys who served in a cause they believed in.....................................................nothing else.


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## rich (Feb 16, 2019)

Hey, Those so strongly opposed to an image, believing those images must be removed should pause to consider the next individual offended by an image of their religion.  To think that a symbol perpetuates and proliferates an ideology, I believe is a grave error.  Indoctrination to any way of thinking requires much more than imagery.


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## coldwater diver (Mar 4, 2019)

Interesting thread and also very sad that this is happening. We live in a land of hysteria now. The kids are being brainwashed to despise and hate this country, to not teach American history but to reinterpret it in this lens that the earths death is imminent, the country was founded and stolen by evil white men on the backs of the black and red man. 1984 took a little longer to get hear but these crazies want to censor what you say, think, and do. They get to decide who is offended and whats offensive irregardless of any other opinion on the subject. 
                       I took a trip to Fredricksburg Va as a 15 or 16 year old and went to the civil war parks. The town changed hands many times during the Civil War. I was standing near a rock wall and they had photos of the exact same spot  i was in. I looked carefully at this photo many soldiers lying dead behind it. I guess Id never seen a photo with dead people but I could not help but look at every face. I'm now 52 and I still remember that photo and still feel sorrow for those killed in it.These boys and men fought through the lens of their time and it was horrible. Very hard to be the judge and jury over the south today nor should we. 
                        The amazing thing is this county persevered and united again. As far as statues of George Washing ton in the UK ? Thats across the pond in another country,
the ones we are talking about are in the South. Erected by people in the South. they were proud of those who fought and died for the South. I would venture a guess though, that there are no statues of General Sherman in Atlanta or General Grant in Vicksburg. 
                         Now they are talking reparations to I guess those who may be decedents of slaves from over 150years ago. Another topic I know but its akin to the same hysteria Irregardless of the 620,000 killed in the war that ended slavery.


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## southern Maine diver (Apr 8, 2019)

Well said Kevin...


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## Truth1253 (Apr 20, 2021)

I held on for long as I could 





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## J.R. Collector (Apr 20, 2021)

Wow. Really?


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## TxBottleDigger (Apr 20, 2021)

Thank you for asking this question as I am a quite opinionated person myself and thoroughly enjoy sharing my opinions. I feel as if removal of the statues portraying confederate soldiers is the right thing to do. Vandalizing them is absolutely degusting as many of these statues are truly old, in fact, most are 100+ years old. I think these should either be put in storage or even better in or outside the property of a museum with of course being protected. Their true place of residence these days should not be in public but rather in a place of education. Some may say that they should stay up partially because many confederate soldiers fought for their "country" like many soldiers would do. In Germany, during the second world war, may soldiers of the Wehrmacht (German armed forces)  fought for their country and not for the ideology. In Germany, statues depicting a WW2 German soldier are almost never seen. The overall picture however is that these soldiers were part of a government which committed inhumane things. The Confederate States of America were made on the basis of slavery. The North threatened this southern custom so the South succeeded. The confederate flag simply is a hate symbol. I find it hard to understand why people can't understand this: the flag may have been somewhat peaceful in connotation at a time but has gradually become a symbol of hatred and bigotry. The flag is used by white supremacist's, Neo Nazis, and racists. It no longer is widely accepted as "Southern pride". I'm not sure what much there is to be proud of in the south as the lack of education and ignorance is extremely prevalent. I am in fact a minority living in the South. No, I am not racially a minority. I am a intellectual. I also cannot understand why people fly it for the public to see yet they know it can be offensive. People who fly it knowing its modern meaning to many people are simply bigots. Remember; many of these people are the same people who would disagree with someone flying the swastika.


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## Tom smith (Apr 20, 2021)

TxBottleDigger said:


> Thank you for asking this question as I am a quite opinionated person myself and thoroughly enjoy sharing my opinions. I feel as if removal of the statues portraying confederate soldiers is the right thing to do. Vandalizing them is absolutely degusting as many of these statues are truly old, in fact, most are 100+ years old. I think these should either be put in storage or even better in or outside the property of a museum with of course being protected. Their true place of residence these days should not be in public but rather in a place of education. Some may say that they should stay up partially because many confederate soldiers fought for their "country" like many soldiers would do. In Germany, during the second world war, may soldiers of the Wehrmacht (German armed forces)  fought for their country and not for the ideology. In Germany, statues depicting a WW2 German soldier are almost never seen. The overall picture however is that these soldiers were part of a government which committed inhumane things. The Confederate States of America were made on the basis of slavery. The North threatened this southern custom so the South succeeded. The confederate flag simply is a hate symbol. I find it hard to understand why people can't understand this: the flag may have been somewhat peaceful in connotation at a time but has gradually become a symbol of hatred and bigotry. The flag is used by white supremacist's, Neo Nazis, and racists. It no longer is widely accepted as "Southern pride". I'm not what much there is to be proud of the south anyway as the lack of education and ignorance is extremely prevalent. I am in fact a minority living in the South. No, I am not racially a minority. I am a intellectual. I also cannot understand why people fly it for the public to see yet they know it can be offensive. People who fly it knowing its modern meaning to many people are simply bigots. Remember; many of these people are the same people who would disagree with someone flying the swastika.


 Very well said


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## TxBottleDigger (Apr 20, 2021)

Tom smith said:


> Very well said


Thank you very much.


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## bottles_inc (Apr 21, 2021)

Don't think something inherently has value just because it's old. Bottle diggers regularly leave 100-120 year old bottles at the hole, which is admittedly a poor comparison but you get the point. A lot of the confederate statues aren't memorials to the men who died, they're fantasy pieces put up by groups like the daughters of the confederacy well over 60 years after the end of the war. Those I don't see the issue with removing if people request them being moved or whatever. Should every single one be preemptively removed? Nah, probably not. And some of them aren't offensive, but I think it's naive to think that every single one comes from a pure place and was put up for the men who fought without any other agenda. I will say Stone Mountain pisses me off. The original carver, the fundraisers, and a bunch of people involved in its creation were all KKK, some high level, but what annoys me more is that they defaced one of America's most interesting and beautiful natural monuments for human vanity. Dislike Rushmore for the same reason. Leave mountains alone. They're not anyone's to carve.


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## Truth1253 (Apr 24, 2021)

TxBottleDigger said:


> Thank you for asking this question as I am a quite opinionated person myself and thoroughly enjoy sharing my opinions. I feel as if removal of the statues portraying confederate soldiers is the right thing to do. Vandalizing them is absolutely degusting as many of these statues are truly old, in fact, most are 100+ years old. I think these should either be put in storage or even better in or outside the property of a museum with of course being protected. Their true place of residence these days should not be in public but rather in a place of education. Some may say that they should stay up partially because many confederate soldiers fought for their "country" like many soldiers would do. In Germany, during the second world war, may soldiers of the Wehrmacht (German armed forces) fought for their country and not for the ideology. In Germany, statues depicting a WW2 German soldier are almost never seen. The overall picture however is that these soldiers were part of a government which committed inhumane things. The Confederate States of America were made on the basis of slavery. The North threatened this southern custom so the South succeeded. The confederate flag simply is a hate symbol. I find it hard to understand why people can't understand this: the flag may have been somewhat peaceful in connotation at a time but has gradually become a symbol of hatred and bigotry. The flag is used by white supremacist's, Neo Nazis, and racists. It no longer is widely accepted as "Southern pride". I'm not sure what much there is to be proud of in the south as the lack of education and ignorance is extremely prevalent. I am in fact a minority living in the South. No, I am not racially a minority. I am a intellectual. I also cannot understand why people fly it for the public to see yet they know it can be offensive. People who fly it knowing its modern meaning to many people are simply bigots. Remember; many of these people are the same people who would disagree with someone flying the swastika.



I disagree not all not all but most 99% of the blacks never paid it any mind until the liberal Leftist made a big deal out out off it and got the black Mayor on board only then mostly beta white Leftist made a story out of it. I don’t care what the blacks have to say it was history we bought them from the Arabs and they were sold to them by the more powerful blacks. They took down Robert E Lee , Beauregard etc 

But there’s only one that wasn’t taken down was Robert E Lee “Old Hickory” in Robert E Lee Park. I knew from day one they will not take that one down because that is the iconic or the “money shot” that most tourist of Roberty Lee raring up his horse with the background of the Cathedral Church. I knew the Black mayor would’nt touch that one and I was right. It’s all for their agenda they would read beautiful statues Southern generals who risk their lives for of beautiful nation on this side of heaven. History is history and if it’s bad you’ll learn from and if it’s good you praise. And if they let them erase history as of that what makes you think they won’t do it more everybody gets offended these days I’m not even let the kids watch cartoons. And as far as the other countries that are doing it never compare America to any other countries 





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## Truth1253 (Apr 24, 2021)

I’ve been raised in New Orleans I have never met someone who knows someone who has met someone that was in the KKK. What could the KKK do that the blacks are doing to themselves. I guarantee that more blacks killed more blacks than the KKK could ever imagine. 
I have a collection of KKK memorabilia although I didn’t like it it was a time in history and it should never be forgotten because no matter what you do it never will be forgotten. Hit me up if you wanna see my KKK MEMORABILIA 


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## east texas terry (Apr 24, 2021)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Doesn't it seem strange that we built monuments to traitors and war-losers?
> 
> The worn-out defense which poses the Southern States fighting for their traditional interests against the unfair interests of the nation is a straw-man argument.
> 
> The real objection to taking down Confederate monuments is that this effort is perceived as an attack on confederate racial attitudes.  And, maybe that's what it is.  And, maybe it's about time, more than 160 years after the issue came to a head.*


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## east texas terry (Apr 24, 2021)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Doesn't it seem strange that we built monuments to traitors and war-losers?
> 
> The worn-out defense which poses the Southern States fighting for their traditional interests against the unfair interests of the nation is a straw-man argument.
> 
> The real objection to taking down Confederate monuments is that this effort is perceived as an attack on confederate racial attitudes.  And, maybe that's what it is.  And, maybe it's about time, more than 160 years after the issue came to a head.*


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## east texas terry (Apr 24, 2021)

east texas terry said:


> View attachment 223982View attachment 223983View attachment 223984View attachment 223985
> SAVE OUR HISTORY NORTH & SOUTH  & BEYOUND   [ GOD BLESS AMERICA ]


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## J.R. Collector (Apr 24, 2021)

This is definitely not the place for this shit.


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## TxBottleDigger (Apr 24, 2021)

Definitely not a place for bigots to spread their negative, ignorant, views too.


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