# have found an antique J SCHWEPPE TOPEDO BOTTLE



## colinp1967

Hi

 I wonder if anyone can help me.  I have found an old torpedo bottle.  

 J Schweppe & Co
 51 Berners street
 Oxford street

 It has genuine superior and aerated water embossed on the glass along with all the details I have given above.

 Can anyone please tell me how old the bottle is and if it has any value

 Thanks


 Regards

 Colin


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## canada

Hello Colin;

 Schweppes used torpedo bottles up to about 1900, By then they had been in use for about 100 years. Difficult to date precisely. I think the Berners St, address dates from about 1834. The bottles were exported around the world.

    Dave


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## surfaceone

Hello Colin,

 Welcome to ABN. Please do put up a photo, as I'm sure many of us would like to have a look. Some folks would call your bottle a Hamilton. How'd you find this bottle?

 As you may know, the firm has been around for many, many years. Jacob Schweppe 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 began bottling in the late 18th Century. "More than 200 years ago, a German-born naturalised Swiss gentleman read about the discoveries of Joseph Priestley, Lavoisier and chemists of other nations on gases and their combination with water .He concluded that the methods employed in their laboratories were too feeble in comparison to the work of nature in producing natural mineral waters. He decided to investigate the matter further and went on to become the first commercial producer of artificial mineral waters in both continental Europe and later in Great Britain. This is the story of Jacob Schweppe and the Schweppes company.

 Jacob continued to improve the ideas of Priestley, Lavoisier and others and was soon manufacturing his own artificial mineral water. He was soon producing waters of good quality which were going to waste so he proposed to doctors of his adopted home town Geneva, that poor patients might have his mineral waters for free. Soon the demand for his waters grew to those who could afford to buy them and they had to press payment upon Jacob who insisted only on recovering his expenses. Jacob had finally succeeded in inventing a machine or engine that was capable of aerating water to equal or exceed the aeration of natural mineral waters.. The business became firmly established and sales grew. Jacob then made the mistake of trusting the sales of his waters to a friend. This trust was breached as the friend then approached a well -known engineer in Geneva and asked him to make an aerating machine so that he could make his own mineral waters. 

 The engineer, Nicolas Paul did make the machine - a poor machine for Jacobâ€™s friend but made a much better one for himself and quickly set himself up in business as a mineral water manufacturer and a direct competitor to Jacob. This act brought about a partnership between the two men, with Jacob deciding it would be better to join up with Nicholas Paul than suffer his rivalry and competition. A partnership was formed in 1790 between Jacob Schweppe, Nicholas Paul and Paulâ€™s father Jacques Paul. Henry Albert Gosse joined the partnership after being introduced by Nicolas. Gosse was a pharmacist in Geneva and had himself experimented with the production of artificial waters..." From this great Schweppe site.






 Sorry for the large pictures, best I could grab...

 "Jacob arrived in England on 9th January 1792 bringing a letter of recommendation from Professor Pictet of Geneva which he could present to the government, The first factory was at 141 Drury Lane and production of the waters started in early spring. At the time some mineral waters were already being sold in London by numerous apothecaries. Rudimentary mineral water machines were carted through the street for the purpose of street sales. All of these waters were inferior n terms of carbonation to those produced by Jacob but this seemed to have little effect upon on early sales. In July Jacob reported a lack of progress and success to his partners. He asked that a decisive decision be taken, either to abandon the business or agree that he should remain in London through the winter. Jacob added that if they should wish him to stay, they should urge his wife and daughter to join him in England. A reply came a month later urging Joseph to have patience and courage. Collette Schweppe his daughter traveled to London at considerable expense to join Jacob. Business continued to remain flat as the end of the year approached but he was now committed to stray until spring at least. He was astonished to receive a letter in December asking him to close down the business and return home. Various reasons were given, the lack of success in England being one. Not the least though were problems back home, for the firmâ€™s sales were diminishing by the day. Jacob sent off an angry letter to his partners, pointing out that he would continue to stay in London until early spring at the companyâ€™s expense as previously agreed. Jacob felt that he was being abandoned by his partners and this was the beginning of the end of the partnership. The dispute rumbled on for several years with Jacob staying in London. On 20th February 1795 the partnership was formally dissolved. Under the terms of the dissolution, Jacob sacrificed the goodwill of the business he himself had created in Geneva in ten years of hard work. In return he kept the London business. His former business partners soon separated and went their own ways. Nicolas Paul left Geneva for Paris in 1799 and started a new mineral water business n 1799. In 1802 he moved to London and set up in direct competition. Before long he returned to Geneva where he died prematurely in 1806 aged forty three.

 Jacob did not stay long in Drury Lane and by 1794 he had moved to 8 Kings Street, Holborn. He soon moved the factory again to 11 Margaret Street, Cavendish Square, Westminster at Michaelmas in 1795. In this street, at various addresses, he remained until he retired." Thanks to Mike Sheridan.

 As you can imagine, Colin, over the years there were many variations of bottles used.






 "Very early design ovate bottle used by Schewppes with their Margaret Street address on  which predates 1839." From.

 They were at 51 Berners St for 64 years. "The partnership of 1798 was dissolved by a deed dated May 1824, and the new partners were Robert Brohier, R J Brohier and Richard Annesley Sparkes of Oaking in Surrey. Robert Brohier was one of the three original Jerseymen and had held the largest share in the business since 1801. He had taken up residence at Margaret Street and assumed control of production and general company management. Some time before 1831 the company was granted royal patronage when they became suppliers of soda water to King William IV. This was a major achievement and would no doubt have helped to increase sale even further.. At the end of 1831 the company moved from the old premises in Margaret Street and moved into new premises at 51 Berners Street, off Oxford Street. It was not too difficult a job to transfer the relatively simple plant and machinery required to produce the waters. No 51 Berners Street would prove to be a home for Schweppes for the next 64 years until 1895." Also from.

 Here's a short VIDEO of a diver pulling one from what may be Baltic waters. As Dave/canada pointed out, they were world wide, especially so in British Empire locales.

 Digger Odell responds to a question on a Schweppe "Monday, December 02, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: old Schweppes bottle Hello I have recently found an old Schweppes bottle it is made of glass 8 1/2 inches tall clear green or aqua in colour the seam runs up to the lip but not over and it is teardrop in shape but with a flat bottom the markings are in embossed glass with Schweppes across the top with a crest of a lion on the right with a unicorn on the left the crest reads dieu et mon droit and at the bottom are the words by appointment I was wondering if you knew anything about it and if it is worth anything thanks malcolm masset

The J. Schweppe & Co. used the "egg" shaped bottles from their earliest days.  The oldest known example in their collection bears an address of 79 Margaret St and dates to 1809-1831. In 1832 they moved and bottles made from 1832 to 51 Berners St.  the new bottles those dating in the 1870s tend to be longer one 1886 example measures 9 3/8" long. the egg shaped bottles with a flattened base, so the bottle could stand date may have been produced from about 1870 on.  At a board meeting held by Schweppes Ltd in June of 1897 states that, " a flat bottom soda water bottle was shown be registered on May 11th 1897.  Given all that, I expect your bottles dates to the turn of the century, and is probably not rare.  I do think it is collectible and would think it might bring $20-25.  Information taken from: The Evolution of Glass Bottles for Carbonated Drinks, Talbot, O Post-Medieval Archaeology 8, 1974. Digger." From.

 There's this one in the collection of the Chippenham Museum, UK.)

 There's one for sale 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 delightfully described "Reference: ms433
 Description:
 Early Hamilton embossed 'J.SCHWEPPE & CO/51 BERNERS STREET/OXFORD STREET' with embossed label diamond on reverse. Very heavy, thick dark aqua glass with very bold embossing. Also generally saggy appearance with one flattened side. Overall waterwashed but would polish up with some extra usage wear. Minor flake to blob top lip and inside small bruise effect approx 5mm. An unusual variation of a schweppes.
 Height: 235 (mm)	Diameter: 77 (mm)
 Price (GBP): 35" From.


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## cyberdigger

I was wondering what you've been up to the last couple days, Surf.. []


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## geordie

unless it is pontilled ie: free blown it is a rather common bottle which turns up very often here in the UK.


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## colinp1967

Here is the picture below.

 I have not cleaned the inside of it as I really do not know how to do it properly.

https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/shafthq/IMG_9777.jpg


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## colinp1967

I found this bottle in an old shop in Evesham on Saturday.  I paid Â£5 for it.  As I have mentioned I am just starting out collecting bottle and through reading a couple of articles I snapped this up.

 I have also found another bottle which was in my uncles garden.

 This I know is a baby feeding bottle from france.

 It had A GRANDJEAN and SAUVIGNY MEUSE embossed on the side with a coat of arms on the front.  This I believe was also named the Killer Bottle.

 Here is a link to the picture and a bit about the item.

 https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/shafthq/PPGrandjeanPMGF.jpg

  - About the Bulletin 40 "Special A. Grandjean"

 Jean-Pierre D. provides some details on A. Grandjean supporting documentation:

 As promised, I looked at my records on his return trip. I found an old typescript, unfortunately anonymous and undated, on the village of Savigny-sur-Meuse. In the "Industry" is between a tannery and a factory bells, the "factory of bottles.

 "In 1872, industrialist came to settle in Sauvigny. Is a manufacturer of baby bottles. The industry has prospered, its products have been awarded in several exhibitions and competitions. Grandjean M buys the glass bottle, cap and manufactures to place the vacuum tube as the system he invented himself and which he has a patent. Its products are sent first to France and England, Spain, USA, etc. . Its bottles are considered the best and least fatiguing the chest of children. As soon as the baby was placed in his mouth the end of the hose, a simple suction mount is the milk and the stream continues without further effort. (...) Oral tradition claims that the glass vials were manufactured Sauvigny, which contradicts the writings of a contemporary country "

 Some personal observations (therefore a Vosgien ...) about the text and that the newsletter 40: 
 Sauvigny Maas is on the border of the Vosges and Meuse, marked by the course of the Meuse, near Domremy, the birthplace of Joan of Arc. The changing course of the river has done that in history, some villages have been connected to Meuse Vosges and vice versa. 
 I do not know of glassware in the south of the Meuse, however, it has existed and still exist in the Vosges mountains, not far from Savigny. As was done Grandjean bottles, it is likely that they were manufactured in the Vosges, which may explain that sometimes the bottle will be called "feeder Vosges. Another explanation is that the Vosges mountains with their (even if the Vosges near Sauvigny are in the Vosges call "plain") and many spas have at the end of the twentieth century a reputation as a good health, which could be an argument for advertising interesting bottles .... 

 I do not think Grandjean has had offices in Epinal, Bar-le-Duc. More likely, the indications on the bottle that bears these names refer to the "exhibitions and competitions" that took place and where the products have been winning Grandjean. 

 Advertising Klipfel Grandjean-1920 that you play is already in the directory, almanac Trade and Industry (Didot-Bottin) 1905, page 989. I have this directory and I can send you a copy. The 4 bottles given are the same in 1905 and 1920. But the text of 1905 is already talk of "Seevagen Stn." Well before, then, the 1930s. He mentions "a million bottles sold annually. Grandjean M is the only one who has received many patents for all its bottles without tube, sold 20% cheaper than the competition." It is notable that, five years before the ban tubes, advertising so insistent on the bottles without tube ... 

 The insert also mentions the directory "Grandjean sterilize equipment" and "Specialty Toy bottles. I have 5 bottles doll Grandjean, all different, the pattern of the two you have. Three of them measuring 105 mm in height, the other two 87 mm. The differences relate to the lip of the bottle, the conical nature of the cavity of the neck (like the one you are right), and, as often, the quality of embossing. 

 A final word about Seevagen, which was probably a manufacturer of rubber at the start, and instead having met several brands, was probably a vulcanizer selling its products to various manufacturers: AG teats for "A Grandjean.

 You can find the history Grandjean (which takes up the BT 40 and corrected) at:

 http://ludogrid.free.fr/biberons/grandjean.htm

 2 - Angelique exposes the Guerche

 The weekend of June 12, 2005, Angelique is a party to a small village in the Touraine to show its treasures ... The Guerche ( http://laguerche.free.fr ) home each year for 10 years now, an exhibition of collectors in the unique setting of the castle (I participated in this event in 2000).

 The success of this event and the many accolades from visitors and the media have promoted the tourist office to reissue this exhibition with the assistance of the Friends of The Castle Guerche. The event usually receives 1500-2000 visitors from all who discover collections are updated every year. The Guerche former stronghold of the XVth century in the south of Touraine, on the banks of the Creuse, on the edge of Poitou, 15 km from La Roche-Posay and 7 km from Grand Pressigny is one of the finest surviving witnesses of the past in the South Touraine. The exceptional wine cellars of the castle in which this exhibition unfolds harmoniously complements the quality and beauty of the different collections. The visitors can discover rare objects from the past and get all the information requested related to the 25 with passionate collectors will be present. (presentation of the show on the site)

 https://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/shafthq/LaGuercheAngelique2.jpg


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## colinp1967

THE TORPEDO BOTTLE IS UP FOR AUCTION IN EBAY FI ANYONE WANTS TO BID ON IT  

 http://my.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MyEbay&gbh=1&CurrentPage=MyeBayAllSelling&ssPageName=STRK:ME:LNLK


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## div2roty

that didn't stay in the collection for too long


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## div2roty

good luck with it on ebay


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## Angie17673

Hi have Schweppes 79 Margaret street bottle can anyone tell me what it's value mite be plz


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## 2find4me Jr.

That is a nice early Schweppes, on the higher end for value. I assume yours has a pontil mark, as Schweppes bottled on Margaret Street from around 1809-1830. Yours is much harder to find than the common Berners Oxford St. Torpedo. To accurately determine the value, we would need to see pics as I think they came in different colors which affects the value. Condition is also a factor. I have seen the darker green ones sell around $1800-$2200. 
HERE is an early discussion about the bottle.
Interesting history of Schweppes LINK.


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## Angie17673

Trying to upload


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## 2find4me

Very nice, you may want to tumble it to get the hazing and wear off if you are aiming to re-sell the bottle. This may not be the best thing to though, as the embossing is a bit faint. Hopefully someone can chime in and inform us whether it would be a good idea or not. A $1000+ bottle I would still say.


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## Angie17673

Thankyou it's been in my loft for good 7 years rolling around my X was a fisherman and have various bottles jugs etc that were trawled up from the bottom of the sea didnt know they were worth anything this one used to be balenced on glass shelf in my bathroom opps have done a lot of research on it so amazing and interesting to learn of its history and value x


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## Angie17673

Now got to try and find out about the others x


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## 2find4me

When you do find them, post pics and I will be glad to help identify them.


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## sandchip

Very nice.  Looks pontilled to me.


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## andy volkerts

tumbling wouldn't hurt it at all, just get someone who knows what they are doing to do it. You don't want to mess up a thousand dollar bottle!!


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