# OWENS-ILLINOIS CHARTS ~ HOW ACCURATE ARE THEY?



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

*Happy New Year*

 I've been wanting to do this thread for some time now and thought I'd start out the new year with it. 

 Most of us are familiar with the various Owens-Illinois charts and the operation dates they include for the approximately 30 different bottling plants. We also know that Owens-Illinois came into being in 1929. But what some of you may not know is, some of the dates appear to be incorrect, especially plant #23 in Los Angeles, California. Most (if not all) of the charts indicate that the Los Angeles plant opened in 1949. And yet, there are many bottles, including several I have from Los Angeles that are clearly marked with dates as early as the mid 1930s, and possibly even earlier than that. Thus, the reason for this thread to try and determine if there are other inaccuracies on the charts and, if so, how many and which one's.

 I don't expect this to be resolved overnight as I am well aware of the time required to examine multiples of Owens-Illinois bottles from our collections. However, with a little time and effort we just might come up with a workable chart of our own that can be relied on with more accuracy.

 The only way I can think of to do this with any measure of success is to either print one of the charts or to write one out by hand for those that don't have a printer. I recommend using the one pictured below because it appears to be the most detailed of the lot and includes both opening and closing dates for many of the plants.

 Primarily what I am looking for are obvious mistakes which involve bottles from your collection where the dates just do not jive with the charts. If you do find an obvious contradiction, please let us know which plant it involves and possibly accompany it with a picture of the base of the bottle itself.

 Again, I anticipate this to take some time to accomplish, but little by little we just might come up with something that will surprise all of us. Who better than a bunch of soda bottle collectors like ourselves to set the record straight once and for all time.

 Various Owens-Illinois related links with charts and history:

 http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/owens.html

 http://www.blm.gov/historic_bottles/pdffiles/OwensIll_BLockhart.pdf

 http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm

 Thanks a lot and I hope there are enough members interested in this project to make it a worthwhile one.

 Bob

 [ 1st of 3 charts ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

[ 2nd of 3 Charts ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

[ 3rd of 3 Charts ~ From 1971 Julian Tolouse book ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

Just for starters ...

 Here's the base on a San Diego, Ca.  7up bottle which is marked ...

 23 <(I)> 45

 Duraglas

 The 23 is the plant number for Los Angeles and the double-digit 45 is for 1945.

 And yet the charts say the Los Angeles plant didn't begin operation until 1949.

 Its examples like this that call the charts into question.

 Bob


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jan 1, 2013)

In your quest for Sancho Panzas,what considerations are to be made for incorrect dating of bottles vs. incorrect O-I plant charts?

 Is that a possibility that could make your search futile?

 In other words could a poor strike make a 5 look like a 9  or a 6 resemble an 8 disrupting the whole vality of the search.

 So, would not a proof positive date on a bottle be required first before any speculations could be made as to plant orgin?

 Just wondering, because sometimes I can't make out w/ certainity the dates on some of my bottles.


----------



## squirtbob (Jan 1, 2013)

SPB,  I have at least 4 squirt bottles that were manufactured at the Los Angeles plant (23) and date from 1941,43,44, & 45.  Perhaps you recall that all the squirt bottles with the see through print were manufactured in Los Angeles and all from 1947 and earlier. I'll try to send some pictures as time permits. SB


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Just for starters ...
> 
> ...


----------



## bottleopop (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi SODAPOPBOB -

 Interesting question.  I looked through my data and found the following:
 (lines starting with an asterisk have issues with the date charts)

 I have no plant #1 bottles.
 Plants #2 and #3 no date problem here.  The charts are mixed up on those two plants.
 * From Plant #4, I have 2 bottles, both with double-digit dates; 51 and 55.
 I have no plant #5 or plant #6 bottles.
 Plant #7, #8, #9; no date problem here.
 I have no plant #10 bottle.
 Plant #11, #14; no date problem here.
 I have no plant #12 or plant #13 bottle.
 * Plant #15, I have two double-digit bottles, 65, and 68.
 I have no bottle from #16, #17, #18, or #19.  The charts don't have #19 either.
 For plant #20, I have an apparent 1935 bottle.  This is the re-assigned plant number.
 * For plant #21, I have a "6.", implying 1946.  All the rest of the #21 are in the 1930s, starting with 1934.
 I have no bottle from plant #22.
 * For plant #23, I have a double-digit 48.
 * I have a single digit no-dot 6 from plant #24 and 24 is not on those lists.
 I have no #25 or #26 bottle.
 * I have a Bireley's marked "27 8".  Plant #27 is not on the lists.  The bottle says "Hollywood Calif." on it.
 * I have a Pacific Soda Works bottle marked "Hilo Hawaii" marked "29 9".  Plant #29 is not on the lists.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

Osia ~

 In a nutshell, I feel the hobby of soda bottle collecting has been around long enough (since at least the mid 1960s) that you'd think most of this stuff would be elementary by now and common knowledge. And yet, most (if not all) of us are still uncertain as to what certain numbers and letters represent on bottles we have possessed for years and years, which in my particular case has been about 35 years. It wasn't until just recently, due to various discussions here on the forum, that I finally have a general idea of the Owens-Illinois G Codes, which we now know are for a bottle's style, size, and general appearance. But show me a book or another website that discusses these topics in more detail, and I will refer to it. In other words, I'd just like to help set the record straight for collectors today and in the future when they ask, "What does this or that mean?" Plus, it would be nice to have a website to refer to, like Antique-Bottles.net, where answers to these quandaries can be found instead of just scratching our heads for another 30 years and still not know. 

 bottleopop ~

 Thanks for the information. Hopefully it will help make since of the charts eventually. But please be reminded that some of the stats you posted are related to "reassignments." 

 For example ...

 * Plant #15, I have two double-digit bottles, 65, and 68. 

 According to the charts, plant #15 was initially in Okmulgee, Oklahoma and closed in 1939. However, the number 15 was apparently reassigned to Waco, Texas in 1940, which I am assuming is where your 1965 and 1968 bottles were made.

 squirtbob ~

 Thanks for stopping by and sharing. It would be interesting if we could find the earliest date for the Los Angeles plant. I believe it was as early as 1932 but I have yet to see a bottle base with that date on it for confirmation. 

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 1, 2013)

PS ~

 bottleopop

 The plant numbers 19 - 27 - 29 that you said are not on the charts are totally interesting. I was beginning to think plant #24 was the only odd ball. You just gotta wonder where the chart makers got their info in the first place and how there could be even one mistake not to mention several. So a new question arises, which is ...

 Were there or were there not any plants with the numbers 19, 24, 27, 29? According to the bottles there were. But according to the charts there were not. I realize its no big deal one way or another, except if I were making a chart I'd like it to be accurate and not full of question marks.

 Bob


----------



## bottleopop (Jan 2, 2013)

> SODAPOPBOB:  However, the number 15 was apparently reassigned to Waco, Texas in 1940, which I am assuming is where your 1965 and 1968 bottles were made.


  Oops, I missed the #15 reassignment.  I noted the others, a couple of which applied, but missed that one.

 I worry about the Hilo bottle.  It might be a case like OsiaBoyce mentioned and was hard to read.  I think it should be a #20, but perhaps it really is a #29.  I need to find it to check it again.  So many boxes.....


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 2, 2013)

bottleopop ~

 Regarding your ...

 * From Plant #4, I have 2 bottles, both with double-digit dates; 51 and 55. 

 According to the charts, plant #4 in Clarksburg, West Virginia closed sometime between 1942 and 1944 and apparently was not reassigned to Brockport, New York until 1962 or 1963. And yet you have two bottles dated 1951 and 1955. I trust your reading of the numbers is accurate, which, if correct, is a perfect example why I started this thread and challenge the validity of the charts. That is unless its not a 4 on your bottles and is in fact some other single-digit number? Are you 100% certain the plant numbers are 4 and the dates are 51 and 55?

 Thanks

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 2, 2013)

I have a 1972 second printing of Julian Toulouse's book, "Bottle Makers And Their Marks," and on page 406 where he concludes a brief history of Owens-Illinois he added a footnote at the bottom which states ...

 Sources: Directories; Owens-Illinois historical notes; personal connection with the company, 1934-65.

 Although some of Toulouse's information has come under scrutiny over the years, it appears most of the charts that followed used his information as a foundation, which was then elaborated on later. But even with this said, its starting to appear as if there is a possibility that the various researchers relied on the so called documented information that was available without checking the embossed bottle marks themselves for confirmation. Its one thing to assume that a document or vague memory is accurate, but an entirely different thing when it comes to comparing the actual bottles to that information.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 2, 2013)

squirtbob ~

 Regarding plant #23 in Los Angeles ...

 On the same page (406) of Toulouse's book, he starts a new discussion titled "Owens-Illinois Pacific Coast Co." It is several paragraphs long and clearly indicates that Los Angeles, Ca. #23, Oakland, Ca. #20, Tracy, Ca. #22, and Portland, Or. #21, were all a part of "The Pacific Region," and that "the consolidation had been made during 1932." But why the charts show a start-up date for Los Angeles as being in 1949 is still a mystery to me. Toulouse does not eloborate on it.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 2, 2013)

PS ~

 I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the so called chart makers ever even looked at a soda bottle, but instead just assumed their predecessor's information was accurate?

 Bob


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jan 2, 2013)

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W-fIn2QZgg







> ORIGINAL: OsiaBoyce
> 
> In your quest for Sancho Panzas,what considerations are to be made for incorrect dating of bottles vs. incorrect O-I plant charts?
> 
> ...


----------



## fishnuts (Jan 2, 2013)

I have been saying for over a year that they are not accurate...as SPB  remarks, it looks as if the chart makers never looked at a soda bottle bottom.

 Problems (inconsistencies and anomalies) do arise when moulds made for plant A are then shipped to plant B for production after plant A closes.  Dozens if not hundreds of anomalies exist...if people would just look.


----------



## bottleopop (Jan 2, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> Regarding your ...
> 
> * From Plant #4, I have 2 bottles, both with double-digit dates; 51 and 55.
> ...


 Well, not as certain as if I had them in my hand just now, but when I bought them, I wrote down the numbers on the bottles when I recorded and described them.  That is my standard procedure when I get a bottle.  So I would say 99% certain.  []  As to your point though about the reassigning of #4 and when it happened; that is why I put an asterisk in front of it.  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

Osia ~

 I appreciate what I hope is an attempt on your part to benefit the members who view and participate in this discussion. However, I think you should know that I never open your YouTube links. So if there is a point of emphasis you are trying to make by posting them, I am not aware of what it might be.

 As to the problem of not being able to decipher certain numbers, etc; I'm confident there are enough of them, especially the double-digit date numbers, which typically started with Owens-Illinois around 1943, that should more than suffice our needs here to at least make a start on some relevant comparisions.

 fishnuts and bottleopop ~

 Who knows, if enough soda bottles are examined, some day we might even come up with a chart of our own. Take for example bottleopop's plant #4 bottles. Unlike the other charts that show the reassignment as being in 1962-63, our chart would list it something like ...

*Plant #4 ... Brockport, New York ... Reassigned at least as early as 1951*

 And if/when an earlier date is found and "confirmed" from the base of an actual soda bottle, then the chart could be modified accordingly. I realize this would require a monumental task on our parts, but if enough bottles were looked at and documented it might very well be accomplished someday. However, the main problem with just one individual attempting this, such as myself, is that I don't have a broad enough sampling of bottles to make a comprehensive accounting. Because I live in the west, and because most of my bottles were found and not purchased, the majority of them have California plant numbers. That's why it would be best to recrute the participation of as many members as possible to gather information from as many parts of the country as possible. And the only way I can think to accomplish this is to do like bottleopop does and make a list of every Owens-Illinois bottle in our collections and then proceed from there. Once the list were completed, then we could focus on them plant by plant, starting with plant #1 in Toledo, Ohio, and then working through it until done. But just how to go about organizing such a project is question number one, which I am wide open for suggestions about. 

 Thanks

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jan 14, 2013)

SPB,

 Sorry for the late response.  

 I have a milk bottle I found in an area here on Guam that was occupied pre-WW2 (Dec 1941) but more heavily occupied post liberation (July 1944) up until 1953/53 when the area was abandoned.  

 It is a Magnolia Milk Bottle (Philippine company).  Base markings are 23 <(I)> 1 and "Duraglas".  No other marks.

 Depends on who you trust, because little information exists online about this company.  Per one blogger who had a photo of the same bottle, the logo on the side of the bottle dated his to the early 50's.  I do not know where he found this out from.

 If you trust that Los Angeles did not open until 1949, then it is a 1951 bottle and everything works.

 On the other hand, they say that the single digit codes stopped being used in the mid 40's,  If you trust that, and not the other evidence, it is a 1941 bottle.

 From the site where I found it, it could be either.

 I have to say that I have stumbled across a lot of discrepancies from the Owens-Illinois tables from my experience here on Guam where I come across literally hundreds or thousands of American beer and soda bottles from the 1944-1947 era, dumped in the jungle at the end of WW2.  I regret not having more info for you, however my focus is on Japanese bottles and wartime Cokes from the period of Japanese occupation until the liberation and end of the war in 45.

 -Dave


----------



## surfaceone (Jan 15, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  bottleopop
> 
> 
> * I have a single digit no-dot 6 from plant #24 and 24 is not on those lists.


 
 Hello Tom,

 Plant #24 was Mansfield, Mass. See Here.


----------



## bottleopop (Jan 15, 2013)

Heh, yeah I posted the same link back in December.

 Plant #24 isn't on any of those lists and the only reference to it that I can find on the internet is that auction item.  Rather mysterious.


----------

