# Is this an onion bottle? What can you tell me about it...



## jschaeffer (Nov 29, 2016)

What can you tell me about this bottle...it measures just under 10" tall. It is green dispite the color in the one photo.


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 29, 2016)

It's not an onion in the common sense among bottle collectors.  Your bottle was probably made in the Middle East in the 20th Century -- a "Persian bottle."  I might call the form "shaft and globe."
 
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## nhpharm (Nov 30, 2016)

I personally would disagree with Harry on this one.  I've seen several of these in the Northeast over the years...the examples I have seen have a graphite pontil (as this one appears to have) and I think they are American.  Definitely strange as they are clearly a copy of the earlier shaft and globe bottles from the UK but likely date to the late 1850's or early 1860's. They are mold blown (I can't remember if they are spun or if they have mold seams, but they are definitely mold blown and quite uniform).


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 30, 2016)

I don't think this is a utility bottle, judging by the lip finish. This lip falls into the category of bud vase. I think it's a "Persian" bottle from the 20th Century.

All the "Persian" bottles I have seen are pontil-scarred. They are produced to catch the eye, sometimes by form, sometimes by color, often by both.  Commonly, they are free-blown.

There is a TOC Dutch distiller which used a fair copy of an onion bottle, but those bottles are base-embossed and have no pontil scar.
We have two now . . . Any other opinions?


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## nhpharm (Nov 30, 2016)

Harry,

Take a look at the base photo.  Clearly blown in mold and appears to have a graphite or iron pontil.  Also an applied lip.


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 30, 2016)

nhpharm said:


> Harry,
> 
> Take a look at the base photo.  Clearly blown in mold and appears to have a graphite or iron pontil.  Also an applied lip.




I agree that the bottle is mold-blown.

The base scar appears to be a disc pontil, not an iron or "improved" pontil scar.  But, that seems irrelevant.

This is not an applied lip -- why would an application of more glass be necessary to produce a flared lip!  The lip was no doubt tooled; but, I doubt that the lip string was applied separately.  The lipping tool may have squeezed the molded ring, producing a skirt of excess glass below the string.

We're having fun now!  More opinions, please!


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## nhpharm (Nov 30, 2016)

Harry,

The examples I have seen in person do have an applied lip...just like this one.  Not sure why they did it rather than shearing and flaring but definitely a very well-formed applied lip on these. They are very well made bottles.  If the poster can post a photo of the top of the lip you'll see what I am talking about.  My guess is that they held some sort of liquor and I have seen several of them in the Northeast...including 1 that was pulled out of the attic of a house during an auction in northern New Hampshire when I was a kid...I still have a cathedral pickle bottle I bought at that auction.


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 30, 2016)

We'll just have to agree to disagree about the construction of the bottle. 

While I appreciate your stories, nhpharm, you are offering only anecdotal proof for your assertion of significant age and utility for this bottle.  What we need is more opinions.


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## nhpharm (Nov 30, 2016)

Sadly we don't get many opinions on this site anymore...  Many of the posts I put up don't even get one comment (even though some of them get thousands of views).


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 30, 2016)

**sigh**  Yes, I recognize that phenomenon.


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## ACLbottles (Nov 30, 2016)

I would offer up my opinion but unfortunately I know nothing about bottles like these... I'm more of a soda guy. It's a nice looking bottle though!


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## hemihampton (Nov 30, 2016)

ACLbottles said:


> I would offer up my opinion but unfortunately I know nothing about bottles like these... I'm more of a soda guy. It's a nice looking bottle though!




I agree with this. Ditto. LEON.


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## jschaeffer (Nov 30, 2016)

Thank you guys for the info. Im sure its tough...this bottle was from a guy who did lots of digging in his life, primarily he looked for civil war era items. 

This bottle does appear to have 2 semi seams on the ovoid portion of the bottle. Maybe I can add more photos if it would help.


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## jschaeffer (Nov 30, 2016)

Thank you guys for the info. Im sure its tough...this bottle was from a guy who did lots of digging in his life, primarily he looked for civil war era items. 

This bottle does appear to have 2 semi seams on the ovoid portion of the bottle. Maybe I can add more photos if it would help.


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## jschaeffer (Nov 30, 2016)

The lip of the bottle. ..if I place my finger in the top it is a smaller then down further past the lip...it does appear it was added to the neck/ 2 seperate pieces.

And in the one photo please note the seam...there is another on the other side of the bottle.


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## Harry Pristis (Nov 30, 2016)

jschaeffer said:


> The lip of the bottle. ..if I place my finger in the top it is a smaller then down further past the lip...it does appear it was added to the neck/ 2 seperate pieces.
> 
> And in the one photo please note the seam...there is another on the other side of the bottle.



Don't tease us, JSC, show us what you mean about the neck of the bottle.  How about an image straight down the throat.


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## jschaeffer (Dec 1, 2016)

Pretty hard to get a photo of the transition from the lip to the thought of the bottle. Also I think I said previously 10"...the bottle is jyst under 8" tall.


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## sandchip (Dec 1, 2016)

Looks American to me.  It reminds me of a Forest Lawn whiskey, also iron pontiled, possibly that of a competitor or a label only version.


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## Harry Pristis (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm wrong about this being a "Persian" or fantasy bottle.  I was fooled by the side view of the bottle lip . . . it's not a simple flared lip.  The top view (thanks, JSC) reveals a solid lip (a lip that Rex Wilson calls a "prescription lip") that I can accept as applied.

I now think the bottle is a liqueur bottle from the latter half of the 19th Century.  My guess is that it is French based on the disc pontil scar and the fact that the French produced many liqueurs in imaginative bottles.


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## nhpharm (Dec 1, 2016)

I think a better photo of the base might show that this is an iron pontil.  The other examples I have seen all have had iron pontils and this one sure looks like it could as well.


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## jschaeffer (Dec 1, 2016)

I really appreciate all the information you guys have provided.Thank you


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## andy volkerts (Dec 2, 2016)

Personally, I think that it is an American made whiskey decantor. looks like an iron pontil to me. also applied lip.


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## jschaeffer (Dec 2, 2016)

The center of the bottom is an out ward dimple...is that typical of iron pontil vs graphite?


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## nhpharm (Dec 2, 2016)

Iron pontil is the same thing as graphite.  I think most people consider "iron" or "improved" pontil to be the correct term but many people call it a "graphite" pontil as well.  You see those little nipples on iron pontil and open pontil bottle bases as well as some smooth bases and I would imagine it is a centering mark for when they machined the mold.


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## sandchip (Dec 2, 2016)

Can you post a straight-on window shot like the one of the Forest Lawn that I posted?


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## jschaeffer (Dec 2, 2016)

Thank you for taking the time to explain.


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## jschaeffer (Dec 2, 2016)

Here is a photo at the window...and one at the ceiling light. Its darker and bottle thickness prevents most light from goung threw.


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## Harry Pristis (Dec 2, 2016)

It's likely that I've been wrong about this bottle, and I am happy to see so many collectors stepping up to set me straight. Keep up the good work!

I searched old auction catalogs and found several similar bottles.  One failed to get a bid in a 1991 auction; but, in a 2003 catalog, I found this:
View attachment 176329
​Despite auction attribution (often wrong when describing an unusual bottle), I still think the bottle could be French.  The fact that collectors are reluctant to bid on these bottles (two bids in the 2003 auction) tells me collectors don't trust this bottle to be American-made.

I don't have this prejudice.  I think it's an interesting bottle, and would be happy to put it on my shelf.


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## sandchip (Dec 3, 2016)

I rest my case...


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## RIBottleguy (Dec 4, 2016)

Reminds me a lot of this bottle:
https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?74435-Forest-Lawn-JVH-pontiled-American-globe


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## sandchip (Dec 4, 2016)

Seriously?  Did anybody even see post no. 18 or am I the real Invisible Man?


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## Harry Pristis (Dec 4, 2016)

sandchip said:


> Seriously?  Did anybody even see post no. 18 or am I the real Invisible Man?



A Golden Kudo to Sandchip!



​


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## sandchip (Dec 5, 2016)

What a warm, wonderful and heartfelt sentiment!  You're simply the best, Harry!


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## nhpharm (Dec 5, 2016)

I saw it!  Appreciated your input as I knew there was a very similar bottle that was embossed and couldn't for the life of me remember what it was!


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## Harry Pristis (Dec 5, 2016)

sandchip said:


> What a warm, wonderful and heartfelt sentiment!  You're simply the best, Harry!


That is the spirit in which I offered the Golden Kudo.  A Kudo (there is also a Silver Kudo) is not awarded willy-nilly, they are much rarer than WTG's and attaboys.  I was not mocking you.


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## sandchip (Dec 5, 2016)

Hey, I'm with ya, brother!


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## hemihampton (Dec 6, 2016)

This Persian saddle flask looks similar. or no? LEON.


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## nhpharm (Dec 6, 2016)

Leon,

The saddle flasks are flattened on the sides while the bottle that was posted was a classic shaft and globe style (in other words, symmetric around all vertical axis).  The posted bottle was also blown into a mold with a true applied top while the saddle flasks are not.


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## RJ2 (Dec 6, 2016)

As far as dating the bottle, I am just not sure. The glass looks 20th century, but the base wear looks significantly older.
I would rather call it "Globular" than an onion bottle. 
It is the applied lip that is confusing. It is nicely flared for a purpose, maybe a master ink, or even an apothecary.
And also, the pontil looks good, but their is something about it, maybe the center dimple, that causes suspicion. 
I can see why comments on this one are sparse.


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## nhpharm (Dec 7, 2016)

The thing I keep coming back to is the iron pontil.  I know the photo on here isn't great of the pontil, but the identical examples of this bottle I have seen have an iron pontil.  I know of no bottles with iron pontils except American bottles from the 1850's-early 1860's time period.  I've never seen a foreign bottle with one and I've never seen a newer bottle with them.


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## sandchip (Dec 7, 2016)

I agree.  American, 1850s-early 1860s.  It is wut it is.


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