# OWENS-ILLINOIS MARK 4285G ~ WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR?



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

[ Page 1 of 4 ]

 Howdy ...

 OWENS-ILLINOIS 4285G MARK ~ WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR?

 The following will initially consist of at least four pages with pictures, so please hold off posting replies until I am done so as to present this in a sequential and comprehensive manner.

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob ... a.k.a. SODAPOPBOB

 This involves my seemingly never-ending pursuit of trying to decipher the meanings of various base marks on soda bottles, especially painted label (acl) bottles by the Owens-Illinois company.

 First of all is the Owens-Illinois chart pictured below to assist us during the course of this discussion, followed by various Owens-Illinois bottles and their base marks which are the primary focus of this thread.

 Of particular interest on the Owens-Illinois chart below please note the plant number 23 for Los Angeles, California. 

 Also, have you ever wondered why the various Owens-Illinois charts never address the "G" numbers but rather focus on the marks immediately surrounding the symbol? Maybe that's because no one has figured out what the "G" numbers stand for. Of course, this doesn't mean I have, but with everyone's help we just "might" be one step closer to doing that very thing.

 By the way, the "G" doesn't stand for "Green" because I have seen other Owens-Illinois bottles that are "Clear" but also have the "G" mark, but with different numbers. My best guess is the "G" stands for "Glass" in some manner.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

[ Page 2 of 4  ]

 My current examination involves 7 ounce Owens-Illinois acls only, leaving the other sizes such as 10 and 12 ounce for future examination and discussion.

 After examining numerous 7 ounce Owens-Illinois acls in my collection, I discovered that four of them had the same exact base mark of 4285G, all four of which are green glass and non-Duraglas bottles. As most of us know, the Duraglas signature is typically found (with an occasional exception) only on 1940 or later bottles. Thus, setting coincidence aside, there is ample reason to believe the 4285G mark is in some way directly related to green, 7 ounce Owens-Illinois bottles. 

 However, as it turns out, the four bottles under examination here and pictured below all have plant number 23 on them, which is the number for the Owens-Illinois plant in Los Angeles, California. So at this juncture I am not certain if the 4285G mark is strictly a green glass 7 ounce designation or if it is also related to the Los Angeles plant in some manner. All I can say for certain is that the 4285G mark is on several Owens-Illinois green, 7 ounce bottles (all of which are identical in size and shape) except that they come from more than just Los Angeles.

 Consequently, it would assist me greatly if members could examine as many green, 7 ounce Owens-Illinois acls as possible and see if the 4285G mark is on any bottles other than those made in California or at Los Angeles plant number 23.

 The four bottles pictured below are as follows and have the base embossments indicated ...

 Reminder: All four bottles are Non-Duraglas examples, and all have the 4285G base mark. 

 1.  "Life" ~ Bottled in Los Angeles, California.
 Base Mark ... 23 <(I)> 8 ... (for 1938)
 Base Mark ... 4285G
 No other marks or "stippling" = (numerous, dot-size, textured bumps introduced in 1940).

 2.  "Dorado Club / Silver Fizz" ~ Bottled in San Bernardino and San Diego, California.
 Base Mark ... 23 <(I)> 8 ... (for 1938)
 Base Mark ... 4285G
 No other marks and no stippling. 

 3.  "Melo -Paya" ~ Bottled in Los Angeles, California.
 Base Mark ... 23 <(I)> 9 ... (for 1939)
 Base Mark ... 4285G
 Base Mark ... 11 (eleven)
 No other marks and no stippling.

 4.  "Harold's" ~ Bottled in Parker/Phoenix, Arizona and Los Angeles, California. 
 Base Mark ... 23 <(I)> 2 ... (for 1942)
 Base Mark ... 4285G
 Base Mark ... 11 (eleven)
 Non-Duraglas but "does" have stippling.
 No other marks.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

[ Page 3 of 4 ]

 Bases of bottles in last post ~ Poor picture but all have the 4285G mark ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

[ Page 4 of 4 ]

 Later I intend to follow this with a discussion involving similar 7 ounce Owens-Illinois bottles, but instead of being Non-Duraglas and marked with 4285G, they are marked ...

 Duraglas and G94

 (Once Duraglas was introduced around 1940, the 4285G seems to have been replaced with G94).

 Lastly, I ask those who find this topic interesting to please check as many 7 ounce Owens-Illinois bottles as you can for the 4285G mark and to let us know what other marks or information they might contain. In that way we might be able to determine if it is just a California mark or if it was used in other states and on other bottles as well.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

PS ~

 To clarify one of my opening remarks where I said ...

 "All I can say for certain is that the 4285G mark is on several Owens-Illinois green 7 ounce bottles"

 What I meant is, I have only found the 4285G mark on green bottles but not that the "G" stands for Green. 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

I'll go into this next phase in more detail later, but for now just wanted to share this quick pic of three different Owens-Illinois 7 ounce bottles that are marked ...

 1. Duraglas
 2. G94

 Notice the center bottle, also marked with a "G" is clear glass.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

Bases of last three bottles with Duraglas / G94 mark ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

Summary ...

 What I am hoping to determine is whether 4285G is just a Los Angeles, California mark or if it is found on other city/states as well?

 Gracias'

 Bob


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## epackage (Nov 25, 2012)

Sorry I can't be of any help on this one Bob, seems all the bottles like this in my collection are Glenshaw Glass, good luck...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 25, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Sorry I can't be of any help on this one Bob, seems all the bottles like this in my collection are Glenshaw Glass, good luck...


 
 Jim ~

 Thanks. I appreciate the consideration anyway. Maybe the 4285G is strictly a California mark. But only with examination of similar bottles will we ever know with any measure of certainty. By using a "Process of Elimination," eventually we might be able to figure out what "all" of the Owens-Illinois marks stand for.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_of_elimination

 Bob


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## epackage (Nov 25, 2012)

.


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## squirtbob (Nov 26, 2012)

Bob,  I checked all my 7 OZ Owens-Illinois manufactured squirt bottles and found 4 that were produced at the Los Angeles (23) plant.  All of the bases of LA bottles are marked 4285-G. These bottles date from 1941 (2), 1943, 1945.  Two of them say Duraglas, two do not.  Most of the non-LA produced bottles say G-94, but a few have no base markings other than the plant, <(I)> logo, and date. SB


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Summary ...
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

SquirtBob ~

 Thanks a lot. It's starting to look as if there might be a direct connection between 4285G and Los Angeles plant number 23. Of course we may never know exactly what the number stands for other than all of the bottles so far have the following in common ...

 1.  Owens-Illinois
 2.  Los Angeles Plant Number 23
 3.  4285G
 4.  7 Ounce
 5.  Green Glass
 6.  Identical Size and Shape/Style

 However, if even one bottle is found from a different city/state that has the 4285G, then it's back to the drawing board. By the way, do your G94 bottles happen to be marked with plant number 7 for Alton, Illinois?

 Additionally, I'm trying to determine exactly when the Los Angeles plant number 23 began operation? Which means I might be wrong about the dates on three of my four bottles. If you rely on the charts, especially the one on the following link, it looks as if the Los Angeles plant didn't begin operation until 1949. And yet, two of my bottles are clearly marked with a single-digit 8, which has to be for either 1938 or 1948. But when you read the text part of the following link, it says the west coast operations were acquired by Owens-Illinois as early as 1932. It's confusing.

 http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

PS ~

 In the book "the Glassmakers revisited" which is a complete history of the Owens-Illinois Company, it too states that the west coast operations were acquired around 1932. So why then do the charts show a start-up date for Los Angeles as being in the late 1940s?

 The chart below is scanned from Julian Toulouse's 1971 book, "Bottle Makers And Their Marks." Notice where the *(* (start date) is placed for Los Angeles.

 And now refer back to the chart I posted earlier where you will see other west coast dates of ... 

 21. San Francisco, CA #1 closed 1937
 20. Oakland, CA ca. 1937 (Reassigned)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's a link to another Owens-Illinois chart that shows 1949 for Los Angeles. If all of these charts are correct, then how is it possible I have two bottles from L.A. marked with a single-digit 8?

 http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/owens.html


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 I forgot to mention I have a "Bubble Up" bottle marked ... 23 <(I)> 48 ... with there being no question that the double-digit 48 stands for 1948 (It is also marked with Duraglas and is stippled).


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## OsiaBoyce (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's novel idea. 

 Contact Owens-Illinois.

 If anyone would know it would be themselves. 
http://www.o-i.com/

 There's even a # to call.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> Here's novel idea.
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks for the suggestion, but I tried that a couple of years ago and was told they no longer have a public relations department for such inquiries. I think they get bombarded along those lines and had to pull the plug on it. But irregardles, my 1948 Bubble Up is a clear indication the charts that show 1949 for Los Angeles have to be *incorrect*, at least by one year.

 Bob


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## squirtbob (Nov 26, 2012)

I have 7 G-94 7 oz. green bottles with date ranges from 1941 to 1957.  1 made in Streator, IL (9), 3 in Alton, IL (7) and 3 in Fairmont WV (3). With regards to believing the "text" or "chart" concerning when the LA plant started manufacturing ... the chart must be wrong. I have 4 different squirt bottles definitely dating 1941-1945 and all have plant mark for LA (23).


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> SquirtBob ~
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

PS ~

 My 1948 Bubble Up is marked with *94-G* and is identical to the other bottles in question ...

 1. 23 <(I)> 48 ... (Los Angeles ~ 1948)
 2. 7 ounce
 3. Green


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  squirtbob
> 
> I have 7 G-94 7 oz. green bottles with date ranges from 1941 to 1957.  1 made in Streator, IL (9), 3 in Alton, IL (7) and 3 in Fairmont WV (3). With regards to believing the "text" or "chart" concerning when the LA plant started manufacturing ... the chart must be wrong. I have 4 different squirt bottles definitely dating 1941-1945 and all have plant mark for LA (23).
> 
> ...


 
 Thanks, Bob. I think we are hot on the trail to something but don't know exactly what that "something" is just yet.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

We might as well add a little more confusion to the mix, as if there wasn't enough already. Anyhoo, I just discovered two more Los Angeles bottles, which are ...

 1. 7up ~ 23 <(I)> 46 ... (1946)

 2. 7-11 (Brand Name) ~ 23 <(I)> 46 ... (1946)

 Both are 7 ounce and green, except instead of having the 4285G or 94-G marks they are both marked ...

*7830-G*

 ?????????? [] ??????????

 Bob


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## squirtbob (Nov 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> We might as well add a little more confusion to the mix, as if there wasn't enough already. Anyhoo, I just discovered two more Los Angeles bottles, which are ...
> 
> ...


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## squirtbob (Nov 26, 2012)

I looked at a squirt bottle not long ago and the owner noted that the bottle said 7830-G on the bottom. It was also plant 23. I have an email out to verify that. That bottle dates to 1947.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> We might as well add a little more confusion to the mix, as if there wasn't enough already. Anyhoo, I just discovered two more Los Angeles bottles, which are ...
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2012)

Bob ~

 Thanks. Very interesting. 

 I'm leaving for the day but will be back this evening.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2012)

Bob / Anyone and Everyone ~ 

 For the time being (so as not to get too confused ) let's focus on just the 4285G and the 7830G marks as they "seem" to be directly related to Los Angeles, (at least so far they do). As for the G94's, I have already discovered they are on both the Los Angeles bottles as well as the Alton, Illinois bottles, and possibly others.

 I think one of the simplest way to approach this at the present time is to conduct a ...

 "*IN SEARCH OF*"

 1. *Any* Owens-Illinois bottle marked with either *4285G* or *7830G*

 That ...

 2. *Isn't* marked with Los Angeles plant number 23

 Especially ...

 3.  *Green*, *7 ounce* bottles

 As I said earlier, if even one of the bottles being discussed here is from a city other than Los Angeles, then this is probably a lost cause and likely never will be resolved. However, if in fact all of the 4285G and 7830G bottles "are" from Los Angeles, then we'll work on that and see what else we can come up with to determine what the so called codes stand for.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2012)

Prior to the jury returning with a verdict regarding whether 4285G and 7830G are strictly Los Angeles codes, I'm going to do a little "putting the cart before the horse" speculating and eliminate the *G* as standing for *G*reen. Without exception every Owens-Illinois bottle I own has a G code of some type, which includes every green, clear, and amber colored bottle in my collection. Although inconclusive, it's highly doubtful that G stands for green but "possibly" might stand for *G*lass. So if my process-of-elemination is even close to being accurate, then that leaves us with just the numbers to contend with which, again, are ...

*4285* and *7830*

 Note: The 7830 "seems" to be the later of the two numbers. I'm "guessing" the 7830 bottles also have Duraglas on them, which all of mine do.  

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2012)

PS ~

 Question / Focus / Speculation  

 What might late 1930s/1940s green, 7 ounce Owens-Illinois bottles (various brands) that were made in Los Angeles, California have in common with the numbers 4285 and 7830? Is there something I'm missing here except for the fact that I'm crazy for even asking? 

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2012)

I sent Red Matthews a PM in the hope he can help us out with this. If he responds, which I expect he will do eventually because he's a very knowledgable and helpful guy, then I will look forward to what he has to say.

 Bob


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## RED Matthews (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi all,  I went back and didn't find any definite answer to your questions.  After just moving not all my information is as organized as it yas - YET!!   We work on getting settled every day,  RED Matthews


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2012)

Red ~

 Thanks for stopping by. Please let us know if you come up with anything. 

 Much appreciated.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 28, 2012)

SquirtBob / Anyone ~

 So far the dates on the 4285G Los Angeles bottles range between 1938 and 1945. Do you have any 4285G's that date earlier or later than this? I don't!

*Los Angeles / 1938 to 1945 / Green / 7 ounce / 4285G / What's the connection?*

 Thanks

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

The following is based on having personally examined approximately one-hundred various Owen-Illinois painted label (acl) soda bottles from my collection. All three of the bottles referred to here were made at Los Angeles, California plant number 23.

 Henceforth, I intend to refer to the (for example) 1234-G embossed base marks as ...

*STYLE CODES* 

 By "Style" I am referring to the bottle's specific size / shape / general appearance. 

 By the time I was half-way through my examination I could spot a particular style/code without even having to pick up the bottle. As you can see in the picture below, the similarities are unmistakable. Each of these three bottles is a different brand that was bottled in a different city, but were made in different years. And yet, all three bottles have the same exact STYLE CODE which, in this particular case, is *7806-G*

 It is my opinion the same STYLE CODE on these three bottles is not coincidental but rather is a specific designation assigned to them to identify size / shape / general appearance. Consequently, I am now of the opinion that "all" Owens-Illinois STYLE CODES were specifically assigned to specific bottles.

 However, because I only have Los Angeles bottles available in this style, it still needs to be determined whether or not the same STYLE CODE for them was used at different Owens-Illinois plants in different cities and states. 

 The (identical other than acl label) bottles pictured below are as follows ...

 Reminder: All three bottles are base marked with 7806-G 
 Note: All are Non-Duraglas

 Purity ~ Bottled in Globe, Arizona
 23 <(I)> 50 (1950)
 10 ounce
 Clear Glass
 7806-G

 Home Pack ~ Bottled in Los Angeles, California
 23 (I) 60 (1960) ... Note this is the newer O-I mark without the diamond.
 10 ounce
 Clear Glass
 7806-G

 Mt. Lassen ~ Bottled in Susanville, California
 23 <(I)> 46 (1946)
 10 ounce
 Clear Glass
 7806-G

 I thought it was particularly interesting that the same 7806-G style code for these three bottles was used continuously between 1946 and 1960. ( 14 years )

 Please examine your own Owens-Illinois acl's and see if come to the same conclusion as I have.

 Thanks

 Bob

 [ Of particular interest please note the same shoulder and neck rings ] [ 1950 ~ 1960 ~ 1946 ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

PS ~

 Here's a quick example of ...

*OWENS-ILLINOIS STYLE CODE 4441-G*

 Left to Right

 1944 Royal Crown ... Los Angeles, Ca. Plant #23
 1944 Cleo Cola ... Oakland, Ca. Plant #20
 1953 Royal Crown ... Los Angeles, Ca. Plant #23


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 Although we may never figure it out completely, it would be interesting to know if the style codes have specific meanings or if they are just random numbers created by some "mould department guy" way-back-when? I lost count of the different numbers I've seen, but they are numerous and seem to be random with no particular rhyme or reason or sequence. ???

 Bob


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## RED Matthews (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Bob and others on this thread.  I know that when a bottle layout is established it is given a number in the engineering and sales department.  From there that number is included in the embossed information on the bottle made to that specification drawing.  If anything is changed the number will be changed to the new spec.  For example 2992 was a certain mold design for a beer bottle job.  I have no listing for what other companies did to identify their numbering systems.   RED Matthews


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Red ~

 Thank you so much. You just confirmed what I was literally in the process of typing below when your reply appeared.

 Bob

 Reminder / Speculation ...

 Bottle "styles" are created on paper drawings first by bottle designers or artist. The codes/numbers "might" be related to the original artist renderings which are then marked and filed accordingly.


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## epackage (Nov 29, 2012)

I have this ACL layout sheet for a Paterson bottler Bob and as you can see on the layout sheet and the card they give a "Bottle/Mould" designation as #320, and the card has the dimensions. While it doesn't name the bottle making company I have to assume whoever they used had similar designations just like you mention here. Whether or not the bottles had the numbers 320 embossed on them I don't know because I don't have an actual ACL from Mystic, but I think it helps show that certain bottle styles had numbers assigned to them by the glass makers...


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## epackage (Nov 29, 2012)

The card...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Jim / epackage

 Thanks. Great stuff! 

 If I understand correctly what it's saying in the top-right corner under "Warning," it sounds as if the term "Color Printed" is referring to the ACL (painted label), and that the Mystic label was intended for a specific bottle "style." Is that the way you interpret it?

 It's too bad we don't know what glass manufacture it was intended for. I'm going to research Mystic and see if I can find out. Better yet, maybe a member has one and can tell us.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Jim ~

 Is Mystic a super rare bottle? I can't find a picture of one anywhere. The only reference I could find was on gono.com, which listed it as being from 1962, but no picture.

 Bob


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## epackage (Nov 29, 2012)

It's rare to me Bob, I've never seen one and I'm unsure if it was ever produced. I have two embossed examples but have yet to see this acl...

 I agree that #320 is a certain 'style' of a bottle by whatever glass company would have been used by them...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Jim ~

 Thanks.

 Maybe a Mystic acl will turn yet. Based on the 100+ Owens-Illinois bottles I looked at last night, I don't recall "any" with a three-digit style code. They were (almost without exception) all four-digit with a G on the end.

 Check out this website. I just now found it while looking for your Mystic bottle. I've just barely scrolled through it, but it might come in handy for future research.

 [ Numerous Pages ]

 http://vintagesodaads.ecrater.com/c/173879/vintage-ads-for-soda-bottle-cork?&srn=0

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Since everybody and their brother probably has a 1940s-50s Royal Crown acl, how'z about we check as many as we can and see which one's and from where have the Owens-Illinois mark ...

*4441-G*

 They should be easy to locate even among rows of shelved bottles like mine are displayed. 

 For those that have one (or more) of the 4441-G bottles, and are interested in particpating, please indicate the following ...

 1. O-I Plant Location Number
 2. Bottler City/State
 3. Date
 4. Whether or not they have the Duraglas signature

 This could prove interesting. Especially if one is found from a state other than California.

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Jim ~

 I realize you already know this, so its primarily intended for those that don't and might be wondering what the reference to "Flint" colored glass is that was indicated on the bottom of your layout sheet. Basically speaking, Flint is clear / colorless glass.

  http://www.sha.org/bottle/colors.htm#Colorless

 (I meant to mention this earlier but forgot)

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Long story short ...

 Based on several Owens-Illinois Royal Crown bottles currently on e-Bay that had accurate information and/or pictures, I was able to confirm the style code for ...

 Owens-Illinois Plant #9 in Streator, Illinois is ... *G2861*

 The dates ranged between 1946 and 1956. Some were Duraglas and some were not. Of the one's showing pictures of the base, I did not see a Streator bottle that did not have the G2861 code.

 I also found ...

*G2906* for plant #14 in Brighton, New Jersey
*638G* for plant #15 in Okmulgee, Oklahoma

 Plus another plant #20 from Oakland, California with 4441G

 Here's the link to the Oakland bottle. Check out the seller's description where he says ... "a blurry word that ends with glass"

 It's halarious! He obviously means "Duraglas" but for whatever reason doesn't realize it.

 Link:   http://www.ebay.com/itm/1930s-Royal-Crown-Cola-Bottle-/140891335017?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20cdc72969

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Summary ...

 It's starting to look as if each Owens-Illinois plant had it's own seperate/different code for the same bottle style.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 Here are the Royal Crown / Owens-Illinois bases most recently discussed.

*23 <(I)> 53
 Los Angeles, Ca.
 1953
 Duraglas
 4441-G*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

And the ...

*G-2861
 Duraglas
 9 (I) 56
 Streator, Illinois
 1956*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 29, 2012)

In conclusion ...

 My appreciation goes out to all members for allowing me to indulge myself in this project. I hope I have provided sufficent evidence to support my belief that the Owens-Illinois numbers/letters under discussion in this thread are in fact ...

*STYLE CODES*

 If eventually refuted, I will humbly stand corrected.

 Thanks again.

 Bob

 PS ~

 And please don't hesitate to share your Owens-Illinois / Royal Crown info like I spoke of earlier. It will help considerably to connect the dots.

 Graci'


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## pickensbob (Nov 30, 2012)

bob, on this bottle, it appears to have g1120- io in diamond  7-plant and appears to 3 date- and 7 on bottom  with duraglass


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## pickensbob (Nov 30, 2012)

my rc cola  no duraglass 3-plant-49 year  g286  city anderson s.c


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  pickensbob
> 
> my rc cola  no duraglass 3-plant-49 year  g286  city anderson s.c


 
 PB ~

 Thanks for sharing your info.

 I haven't had time to research your 76 bottle yet, other than the 7 <(I)> 3 is from plant #7 in Alton, Illinois, 1953

 However, regarding your 3 <(I)> 49 Royal Crown, which is a 1949 bottle from plant #3 in Fairmont, West Virginia, the G-286 style code uncovered some interesting discoveries. (The e-Bay links below will clairify what is difficult to explain otherwise).

 But first and foremost, please take another look at your Royal Crown and see if there is any indication of a number one at the end of the code, which instead of G-286 as you said, might be a G-2861

 The reason I ask this is because some of the e-Bay bottles below appear to have the G-286 while others appear to have G-2861

 Most interesting of all is the plant #15 bottle from Okmulgee, Oklahoma. Check it out. It has a picture of the base that is either the G-286 or the G-2861 that, irregardles of which, definitely has the 286 on it which is the same basic code as plant #9 in Streator, Illinois.

 Thus, this is the first Owens-Illinois Royal Crown bottle I've seen that has the same basic code but is from two different plants in two different states. But as to the explaination for this exception to the rule, I presently don't have the answer, and likely never will unless I examine a jillion Royal Crown bottles.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


 Streator, Illinois ... 9 <(I)> 5 ...  (1945) ... G-286? ... Possible Missing or Blurry 1 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Royal-Crown-RC-Cola-2-Soda-Bottles-Vintage-Nehi-Salina-Coffeyville-KS-/330807208627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d05a56ab3

 Streator, Illinois ... 9 (I) 56 ... Newer Symbol ... (1956) ... Definite G-2861

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-DURAGLAS-Soda-Bottle-ROYAL-CROWN-COLA-Nehi-Corp-9-56-Copyright-/150946896265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232522d989

 Okmulgee, Oklahoma ... 15 <(I)> 57 ... (1957) ... G-286? ... Possible Blurry 1


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1956-Royal-Crown-Soda-Bottle-Oklahoma-City-OK-/380408152784?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589217c2d0

 Streator, Illinois ... 9 <(I)> 5 ... (1945) ... G-286 ... But no Indication of a Missing or Blurry 1 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-RETRO-VINTAGE-1936-12-OZ-RC-Royal-Crown-Cola-RC-GLASS-SODA-BOTTLE-CAP-SC-/181033304871?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a266d0327


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  pickensbob
> 
> bob, on this bottle, it appears to have g1120- io in diamond  7-plant and appears to 3 date- and 7 on bottom  with duraglass


 
 Correction ...

 I typo'd and said 1953. But probably a 1943


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Based on the 100+ Owens-Illinois bottles I looked at last night, I don't recall "any" with a three-digit style code. They were (almost without exception) all four-digit with a G on the end.


 
 Clairification ...

 Although I have yet to find a G with a three-digit number in my personal collection, if the G-286 is a valid code and not missing a one, then it will be the first I am aware of. 

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Streator, Illinois ... 9 <(I)> 5 ...  (1945) ... G-286? ... Possible Missing or Blurry 1
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-Royal-Crown-RC-Cola-2-Soda-Bottles-Vintage-Nehi-Salina-Coffeyville-KS-/330807208627?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d05a56ab3


 I see nothing that would indicate a '1' is missing or blurry, and it's not a G-286 it's an S-286


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

Additionally ...

 So far I have discovered there are at least four glass manufacturers (and possibly others) who made the same style of Royal Crown bottle. All of which used different style codes, suggesting the codes did not originate from an artist design number but rather were specific to the individual manufactures. They are ..

 1.  Ball Glass
 2.  Glenshaw Glass
 3.  Laurens Glass
 4.  Owens-Illinois


----------



## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Okmulgee, Oklahoma ... 15 <(I)> 57 ... (1957) ... G-286? ... Possible Blurry 1
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1956-Royal-Crown-Soda-Bottle-Oklahoma-City-OK-/380408152784?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589217c2d0


 Possible offset '1' but I can't imagine why they would do that, I think it's just a shadow or light playing tricks, this one does have the G though..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Jim ~

 I agree it "sort of" looks like an *S* but will bet you a nickle its a *G*

 After posting this I will contact the e-Bay seller and ask him.

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Streator, Illinois ... 9 <(I)> 5 ... (1945) ... G-286 ... But no Indication of a Missing or Blurry 1
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-RETRO-VINTAGE-1936-12-OZ-RC-Royal-Crown-Cola-RC-GLASS-SODA-BOTTLE-CAP-SC-/181033304871?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a266d0327


 Agreed, there is no '1' here at all...


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## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I went back and looked again Bob and I agree it is a 'G', just light and shadow making it look like and 'S'...My bad


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

Jim ~

 I noticed that offset one and wondered about it, too. It looks like it was added at some point. ???

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Jim ~
> 
> ...


 Seems so odd that it would be done that way, just doesn't add up to me looking at all their other base embossing


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I agree. The more we dig into this the more confusing it gets.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

Speaking of confusion ...

 My next phase is to try and determine how the various style codes came into being and if the numbers have a specific meaning or are just random? Because the four different manufactures of the Royal Crown bottle each used a different code, I'm convinced the codes have nothing to do with the original design drawing. But trying to determine what Owens-Illinois 4441-G and G-286 / G-2861 stands for (not to mention the other manufacturer codes) could be difficult if not impossible to do.

*4441-G
 G-2861
 G-286*

 The only common denominator I see at present are the *G* and the *1*. But aside from that I don't have a clue. Do you?

 Bob


----------



## epackage (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't, and since I have no such bottles I'm of no use unless somebody else pops in with something to research....Goodluck Bob..[]


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## pickensbob (Dec 1, 2012)

i also have a rc from spartenburg, sc  with the g286 mark and the duraglass appears to be plant-3 yr-49 and no # 1.  also have rc by 5 L G W 1 on heel with 24----430


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  pickensbob
> 
> i also have a rc from spartenburg, sc  with the g286 mark and the duraglass appears to be plant-3 yr-49 and no # 1.  also have rc by 5 L G W 1 on heel with 24----430


 
 As you may know, your Royal Crown 5 LGW 1 is a 1951 Laurens Glass Works bottle. I have no clue what the 24----430 means other that it might be a style code.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

Earlier I referred to what I called "A Process of Elimination." Based on my findings, I feel confident we can "eliminate" any of the codes as referring to ...

 1. *Fluid Ounce Capacity*
 2. *Brand / ACL Painted Label*

 Of they numerous bottles I checked, the majority of the code numbers did not jive with the contents amounts, not even when I added and subtracked the numbers to try and make them work. Nor did there seem to be any connection to the brand or label.

 Thus, eliminating capacity and label, that leaves us with ... ???

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I'll go into this next phase in more detail later, but for now just wanted to share this quick pic of three different Owens-Illinois 7 ounce bottles that are marked ...
> 
> ...


 
 PS ~

 I want to reiterate that "color" can also be eliminated. The three bottles pictured here (and earlier) are all Owens-Illinois bottles and marked with style code ... *G94*. Which are the same size and shape but obviously not the same color.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 1, 2012)

Just for the fun of it, I'm going to throw you a little curve-ball. The two bottles pictured here are basically identical in style, except that the one on the left is a slimmer/shorter 7 ounce, while the one on the right is a taller 9 ounce. Both are Owens-Illinois bottles and both were made at plant #20 in Oakland, California. They are ...

 Country Boy
 20 <(I)> 44 ... (1944) 
 7 Ounce
 Non-Duraglas
 Style Code *4304-G*

 Durham
 20 <(I)> 9 ... (1939)
 9 Ounce
 Obviously Non-Duraglas which wasn't introduced until circa 1940
 Style Code *2605-G*

 Thus, we have an example of a similar (almost identical) style, and yet they are two different sizes with two different codes, but from the same plant. 

 So what does this mean?

 I dunno, either. [] (Lol)

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 2, 2012)

Size matters.

 (Sorry, I had to do it, it was just too obvious!)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

bop ~

 Funny but true!

 ~*~

 In my neverending quest to try and make sense of the senseless, just yesterday I discovered that I cannot find a single Owens-Illinois "Deco Style" / "Non-Painted Label" soda bottle that has a Style Code on it. Because I only have a limited number of non-acl bottles in my collection, none of which had a Style Code, I searched e-Bay as well, but of the one's that showed pictures of the bases, I couldn't find any there either.

 As most of us know ...

 1.  Owens-Illinois came into being in 1929.
 2.  The current earliest known Owens-Illinois painted label soda bottle is a 1934.

 Is it possible that Style Codes were not first used until acls were introduced in the early 1930s? To help answer this, for those of you who have numerous non-acl Owens-Illinois bottles in your collection, please check as many as possible and see if "any" of them have a Style Code.

 Should it be determined that *non-acl O-I bottles* (1929 to 1933) don't have Style Codes, then this might move us one step closer to learning more about them.

 Note: Design Patent numbers and Style Codes are (most likely) two entirely different things.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

PS ~

 For those of you who have and are checking your non-acl O-I bottles, please keep your eyes peeled for the letter *G*. I don't want to put the cart too far in front of the horse just yet, but I'm thinking the letter *G* "might" be a designation of some type for *ACL*. Especially if "only" acl bottles have it and it does not appear on any of the non-acl's.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 The only (early) word I can think of at the moment that "might" connect ... 

 ... the letter *G* to *Applied Colored Lettering/Label* is the word ...

 Pyro*g*lasing 

 And/or just ...

*G*lazing.

 I realize this is a shot in the dark, but Glazing might be one of the words worth consideration. Can you think of any other ACL related words that use the letter G?

 Bob

 [ From the Historic Bottles website ] 

 ACL's are also referred to as "pyroglazing" (a copyrighted name of the Thatcher Manufacturing Co.), "pyro", "enameling", "baked enamel labeling", "silk screening", "fire fused" (used by the Universal Glass Products Co.), "painting", and "printing" (Giarde 1989; Sweeney et al. 2002; Tutton 2003; Lockhart et al. 2007c).  Although invented in the 1920s, the American glassmaking industry apparently first began offering ACL on milk and soda bottles in 1933 with widespread acceptance occurring by about 1935 (Giarde 1989; Tutton 2003; Lockhart et al. 2007c).  The huge Owens-Illinois Glass Co. called their process "applied color lettering" in the 1930s (Griffenhagen & Bogard 1999).


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## bottleopop (Dec 2, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB -

 I have also assumed for years that the G-numbers were mold style or design numbers.  I also think that American Bottle Company, Glenshaw, and Reed, at least, have their own systems of design numbers.

 I only collect non-ACL deco-type bottles and I have a lot of them.  Lots of them have these G-numbers.  A few have the G at the end of the number; that may be an old style or a style at a different OI plant.

 I just went through the list and unfortunately, except in one case, every time I have more than one size of a type, they don't have G-numbers on both of them because they're made by different glass companies.  The one case I did notice was Mohr Bros. 9oz and Mohr Brothers Bottling Co. 7.5oz.  Both have the same design and even have Des. No. 70215 (link to patent pic) written on both of them.  The 9oz is G4698 and the 7.5 oz is G8776.  The 'OI' date, location, and mystery number are: 1. over 9 and 7 for the 9oz and 2 over 3 and 9 for the 7.5oz.  I was rather surprised to see your post where size did matter on these numbers, but apparently it does.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

bop ~

 Thanks for participating. Every little bit helps.

 I'll explain shortly why I am making the following request, but if you still have the embossed-only G bottles handy you mentioned, please double check the Owens-Illinois examples and see if any of them are dated between 1929 and 1933.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 2, 2012)

Very few are actually handy, most are in boxes somewhere.  []
 I do have some stuff written down though.
 Many O-I bottles have no G-number, some of these even have the 2-digit date.  However, I saw no bottles in the 29-33 range that have a G-number.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bottleopop
> 
> Very few are actually handy, most are in boxes somewhere.  []
> I do have some stuff written down though.
> Many O-I bottles have no G-number, some of these even have the 2-digit date.  However, I saw no bottles in the 29-33 range that have a G-number.


 
 Gracias' Amigo ~

 I went back to e-Bay and changed my search wording from "Deco Soda Bottle" to "Embossed Soda Bottle." The "Deco" search produced about 80+ bottles. The "Embossed" search produced about 800+ bottles. Of the "Dozens" that were Owens-Illinois bottles that also showed a picture of the base, only *three* of them had a G Style Code. However, of the three that had a G Code, "Zero" of them were dated any earlier than 1947, which is well within the acl era of circa 1933+

 I might be putting the cart before the horse again, but it appears that all of the G Code bottles date after 1934. But whether there is some logical explaination for this or whether a pre-1934 G Code just hasn't been found yet, still remains to be seen. 

 Inconclusive-Conclusion ...

 It's still possibe that the G Codes are in some way related to the ACL "Era."

 Bob

 Here are the three "Embossed Only" / "G Code" Owens-Illinois bottles I found on e-Bay out of the dozens I looked at. Check 'em out! They are dated between 1947 and 1966.

 Orange Smile "Fully Embossed" Owens-Illinois - 9 <(I)> 47 - Streator, Illnois - (1947) - With Style Code G854 or G864.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1920s-ORANGE-SMILE-Embossed-Glass-SODA-POP-Bottle-ST-LOUIS-MISSOURI-/321034021608?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abf1e6ae8

 Dr. Pepper "Fully Embossed" Owens-Illinois - ?9 <(I)> 51 - Streator, Illinois ? - (1951) - With (Hard to see but possible) Style Code G-1235 (?)

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Different-JACKSON-TENNESSEE-Vintage-DR-PEPPER-Embossed-Glass-SODA-POP-Bottle-/321034012246?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abf1e4656

 Taka "Fully Embossed" Owens-Illinois - 10 (I) 66 - Newark, New Jersey - (Newer Mark) - 1966 - With Style Code G-1463

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-TAKA-Chocolate-Soda-Bottles-Embossed-7-fl-oz-Orlando-FL-/221160067946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337e2ad36a


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Consequently ...

 Until further notice I am temporarily eliminating the *G* as possibly standing for *G*laze / *G*lazing.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Next Phase / Reminder ...

 We have already seen examples of the G-Code as early as 1938. So if someone has a (Embossed Only and/or ACL) Owens-Illinois bottle dated earlier than 1938, please share it with us. I'm trying to determine as close as possible when the G Codes first appeared.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Here's the base on member Morbious_Fod's 1934 Jumbo Cola acl. Which is currently the earliest acl known. Notice it does not have a G Code.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 Here's the acl label on Morb's 1934 Jumbo Cola.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

My earliest Owens-Illinois G Code bottle is a ... 

 7up ~ *1937*

 Style Code ~ *4243-G*

 How's about a 1935 or 1936 G Code? Any out there?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

I forgot about member Wonkapete's 1935 Owens-Illinois 7up acl. But I don't see a G Code on it. Of course the jury is still out, but its starting to look as if *1936* "might" be the date we are looking for regarding the first appearance of a G Code. (Maybe ?) I don't have one! Do you? 

 Bob

 [ Base of Wonkapete's 1935 Owens-Illinois 7up acl ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

And the acl label ...


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## OsiaBoyce (Dec 2, 2012)

Bob, talked to this feller?

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/owens-illinois-glass-company-bottle-container-marks/

 So a           3 <O> 0   is a....................?
                       2.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Osia ~

 Thanks for the link. I just sent David Russell a detailed inquiry regarding G Codes and will let everyone know if/when I hear back from him. His website is also the first time I have seen the name *Dick Cole*, who apparently created the Owens-Illinois chart pictured below ... 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

I Haven't heard from David Russell yet, but I did remember this amber *1935* 7up bottle I had forgotten about which has a Style Code that appears to be *4742 G*. That's me holding the bottle that's in a local museum. Even if an earlier G Code doesn't turn up, we at least have this confirmation of a 1935. 

 Bob

 21 <(I)> 5 ~ Owens-Illinois plant #21 ~ San Francisco, California ~ 1935 ~ 4742 G ~ Bottled in San Diego, Ca.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

And here's the front label ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 2, 2012)

Back Label ...


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## bottleopop (Dec 2, 2012)

My earliest OI G-number bottles are:
 Crystal Club: G8575: 3 and 4 over 1
 Keno: G5358: 9 and 0 over 1.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bottleopop
> 
> My earliest OI G-number bottles are:
> Crystal Club: G8575: 3 and 4 over 1
> Keno: G5358: 9 and 0 over 1.


 
 bop ~

 Do either of those bottles have Duraglas on the base? If so, the dates would likely be 1944 and 1940. But even if they don't have Duraglas, trying to figure out whether a single-digit 0 or 4 is for 1930/1940 or 1934/1944, can be a pain in the you-know-what. One of the ways that Morbious_Fod's 1934 Jumbo Cola was confirmed is because of the following ad dated September 21, 1934. Ads can serve as valuable tools when it comes to dating things.   

 Bob

 Notice on the coupon where it states "Not Good After October 1, 1934"


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## bottleopop (Dec 3, 2012)

Neither bottle has Duraglas on it.

 I don't have any ads for these but the Crystal Club bottle has the design of this design patent.  Of course that's only vague evidence that the bottle was made around that time.

 So yes, I don't have any way so far of distinguishing between 1930/1940 or 1934/1944 for these bottles.

 A well-known example is the Coke hobbleskirt bottle was made with the design of their 1937 design patent starting in 1916 and continued to be made for many years after 1937.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

bop ~

 Thanks again. I think we are moving in the right direction. 

 While waiting to hear from David Russell, I've been doing some additional research and reading from my Owens-Illinois history book, and have discovered that the Owens-Illinois *Can* Company was formed around 1935 or 1936. I have just barely skimmed the surface on this topic but am already wondering if the G Code Files were initiated about that same time so as to not get them mixed up with the Can Codes? If so, this suggest that the G stands for Glass, which in turn suggest there "might" be Can Codes that use a C for Can. I have yet to find a single example of a 1930s Owens-Illinois can, nor how they might be marked, but I do know they  exist and will continue looking for them. O-I went into the Can business around 1935-1936 to compete with the first beer cans that were being produced at that time and were taking away a significant amount of business. 

 Does G stand for Glass and C stand for Can? (Or maybe T for Tin). ???

 http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/csmonitor_historic/access/316406652.html?dids=316406652:316406652&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Jun+19%2C+1936&pub=Christian+Science+Monitor&desc=Owens-Illinois+Can+Company&pqatl=google

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

"A new business for O-I, the Owens-Illinois Can Company (purchased in 1935) produced canned goods for the war. However, the company never proved profitable and it was sold in 1944." 

 http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/OIExhibit/whiskey.htm

 I'm still searching for pictures and descriptions of Owens-Illinois cans but haven't found much except for a few oil cans like the one below that was described as being from Bloomington, Illinois.

 I have yet to determine if cans were produced at the same plants where bottles were made or if they were made in seperate factories.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

According to this article on eBay, one of the Owens-Illinois Can Company factories was located in Clearing, Illinois. As far as I know there were no bottle plants in either Clearing or Bloomington.

 [ Article Dated 1943 ]

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Owens-Illinois-Can-Company-Newspaper-Onized-Container-Clearing-Illinois-/121022355870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2d7e999e&nma=true&si=S6F4JXzTRz%2FmCeF7Jxj%2BaJvZMHM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm posting this picture of a Owens-Illinois glass insulator to illustrate that the company was good at marking their products according to what they were. In this case we have *IN-56* which (apparently) stands for INSULATOR 1956. I just wish I could find out how their cans were marked. It's possible the marking of various products began in the 1930s when the company started to diversify so as to keep track of everything. ???


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## squirtbob (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob,  Here is what I found from my Owens Illinois bottles. I have listed the bottle type/ plant code/year/G code

 Herring's Ginger Ale/3/1935/G8048
 Upper 10/3/1936/G1311
 7UP/3/1937/G5276
 7UP/9/1937/G5276
 7UP/3/1938/G5276
 7UP/3/1940/G94
 Rums Dry/3/1938/G7377
 2 Way/3/1938/G67
 Squirt/3/1941/G94
 Squirt/3/1941/G94
 Squirt/9/1941/G94
 Squirt/23/1941/4285G
 Squirt/23/1943/4285G
 Squirt/23/1944/4285G
 Squirt/23/1945/4285G
 Squirt/3/1947/G94
 Squirt/3/1948/G94
 Squirt/7/1951/G94
 Canada Dry/7/1952/G94


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> My earliest Owens-Illinois G Code bottle is a ...
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob ~

 Thanks. 

 There appears to be a trend developing in that (so far) there doesn't seem to be any G Codes prior to about 1935-1936.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 3, 2012)

I found this link to a person asking Digger Odell about a Keno bottle.
 Go down a bit on that page to see the third bottle picture.  The article gives the O-I numbers. 9 and 0  It also gives the G-number as G 6079.
 The one I mentioned in my earlier post was about the 12oz that I have.  I also have the 24oz like the one pictured in this link but, although mine is an Owens-Illinois bottle, it has no G-number on it.  It's OI numbers are 9 and 1. over 1. so that's a 1941, according to current theory, with my 12oz likely being a 1940, although there's no . after the 0.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

bop ~

 Unless there is something specific known about a particular brand, such as when they started operation, etc; the single-digit O-I dates are a tough nut to crack. Because O-I began operation in 1929, there is a possibility the dates mentioned for the Keno bottles could either be 1930/1940 or 1931/1941. Its hard to say. 

 I heard back from David (whose email address says Russell but last name is Whitten) and here's what he had to say [ unedited ]

 Hello Bob,

 I have to be honest and say "I don't know". I am only a casual collector of soda bottles, and I've noticed that I have a few bottles with the G codes, but I believe all of them are from the 1940s or 1950s. You probably already are close to knowing the earliest date. probably not far away from 1937. Just don't know, so I won't hazard a guess.

 Sorry I can't be of any help. I will keep my eye out for bottles with the G codes and pay more attention!

 Have you tried searching ebay auctions? (not especially for buying, but just to scan for info, typing in search terms such as:  soda owens bottle "G-1*" [or other numeral]  and checking "title and description".   

 I just looked through some that I have. I have a Grapette bottle, with the code G-927, this has a date code of 46. , made at Streator, Il plant. So I think 1946 is the oldest one I have. which isn't saying much!

 Take care,
 David Whitten
 Clarksville, Indiana
 davidrussell59@att.net


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

I just realized something ...

 I was mistaken about the G Code on the 1935 amber 7up bottle I posted earlier. I thought it was 4742-G, but its not. It has the same code as my 1937 green 7up. Which is ...

*4243-G*

 Same Style and Shape, but definitely a different color. So we can eliminate "color" from being a factor.

 Look close at both bottles.

 [ Amber 1935 ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

[ Green 1937 ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

PS ~

 If someone can tell me where Owens-Illinois plant #24 was located I will send you a free acl book. But don't rack your brain because I have looked until I was blue in the face. I'm pretty sure it was a mould department typo. Notice around the edges where it is clearly embossed with Los Angeles. The plant number for L.A. was #23, not #24.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 3, 2012)

Mansfield, Mass.


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## bottleopop (Dec 3, 2012)

On this website is a photo of a Crystal Club bottle on page 9 that looks just like the one I have that's marked Crystal Club: G8575: 3 and 4 over 1
 So far, I believe it's a 1934, especially considering the patent date of 1929.


----------



## bottleopop (Dec 3, 2012)

Holy Toledo!
 This would be quite the place to visit!
 Note the item listed at the bottom of page 200.

 That was the index.  Here is the pretty page:
 http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/OIExhibit/MainPage.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 3, 2012)

Bob ~

 Those are great links. I have them in my files and posted them on the forum Soda Bottle Research links back in September.

 As for the O-I plant #24 in Mansfield, something about the dates doesn't seem to jive. As near as I can determine that plant wasn't aquired/built until 1973. My 7up bottle is dated 1937. Show proof of a 1937 plant #24 and the acl book is yours.

 Mansfield, Mass. June 1973 

 http://reference.insulators.info/publications/view/?id=13195

 1975

 http://drc.ohiolink.edu/handle/2374.UTOL/134?rpp=20&sort_by=-1&etal=-1&type=author&zsort_by=-1&restrict=false&zrestrict=false&order=ASC&value=Owens-Illinois,%20Inc.&zrpp=20&zorder=ASC&zetal=-1&starts_with=C&zstarts_with=O&ztype=author&focusscope=2374.OX/170673&mode=browse

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 4, 2012)

Bob, I doubt there ever was a OI bottle plant #24, at least not back then.  []

This site says the first production run in Mansfield was in 1975.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

Bob ~

 Here's one of the Mansfield plant's first production bottles made in Feb 24, 1975 (2-24-75). I believe this particular example is commeroative of the original.


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## pickensbob (Dec 4, 2012)

hi bob,  i have a pepsi bottle with io in diamond with duraglas 2- plant and 13 for year, but i believe that pepsi bottle isn't the yr, also has  g-951,  bottle also has 14a47 , and des pat 120,277 ,  from macon ga,  12 oz


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

PB ~

 Thanks. As near as I can determine there appears to be "hundreds" of different G Codes. And ...

 Although inconclusive, and because I have pretty much hit a dead-end in my research, until evidence is presented to refute it, I am favoring that the G Codes are *Catalog References*. In his article, Bill Lockhart makes mention of these catalogs, but I have yet to see one specifically for the Owens-Illinois Company. The link at the bottom is to a 1926 Illinois Glass catalog. And although this is three years prior to the forming of Owens-Illinois, if you click around on the various pages you will see a variety of different catalog "Mould Numbers." I intend to contact Bill Lockhart and ask him some specific questions, and especially to see if he has any Owens-Illinois catalogs that can be checked to see if the numbers in them match the G numbers on the bottles. If so, then the mystery is solved. 

 One thing of interest I noticed in the article is where Paquette states that a code system was created "at the end of Prohibition (1933)" This seems to jive somewhat with the G Codes already discussed, with the earliest one so far being from a 1935 7up bottle. 

 If anyone has a Owens-Illinois catalog, please let us know and we'll double-check some of the numbers.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 ~*~   

 Bill Lockhart Article

 http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm

 Often, these "mold codes" are synonymous with numbers in the company catalogs. Thus, I have begun calling these specific types of mold codes - catalog codes. The glass group to which I belong has successfully matched numerous codes found on bottles with illustrations in the Whitall Tatum and Illinois Glass Co. Catalogs. In other cases, we have been able to match numerical codes on numerous identical bottles to empirically define codes by certain companies (e.g. Illinois Pacific Glass Co.) as catalog codes.

 Paquette (1994:87-88) discussed the creation of a code system at the end of Prohibition (1933):

 At the outset, the need was for standard sizes, shapes and capacities. And [Smith L. Reardon] said, "The Secretary had the idea that the government needed to know that bottles would not be refilled and would be tamper-proof. So each of the distilleries [received] an identifying number and my proposal was that each of the bottle factories also be numbered.

 After several weeks of study and discussion, a simple code was devised. Numbers were used to identify the month and year the bottle was manufactured and the plant in which it was made. An appropriate logotype or symbol would be added to identify the glass company which produced the bottle.

 Illinois Glass 1926 Catalog.

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

PS ~

 The only glitch in this "Catalog Theory" is that each Owens-Illinois plant seems to have used a different G Code. But this doesn't necessarily mean the end of the world because its also possible that each plant had it's own seperate catalog, with different mould numbers for basically the same bottles that every other plant was producing. If correct, those different catalog numbers might have been another way for the parent company to track who made which bottle. ???

 The only way we'll ever know for certain is to get our hands on one or more of those catalogs.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 Here's a slightly more detailed Owens-Illinois chart. Although it may not be 100% accurated (as in the case of the Los Angeles plant disscused earlier) at least it spells out "start up" dates that most of the charts lack.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

Talk about confusing ...

 David Whitten sent me the following eBay link regarding an Owens-Illinois "Manitowoc" acl. As you'll see, the seller seems even more missinformed than we are. For one, he calls the G Codes "Patent Numbers." Secondly, the seller incorrectly describes one of the pictures by saying it has a 1 when it actually has a 3 on what he calls a "Mould Cavity" number. But the most interesting part is where the G Code for the 1960 through 1967 bottles is *G-597*. But for no apparent reason in 1969 the G Code changes to *G-109*. What the heck? Just when I was beginning to think it was safe to go back into the water and someone has to throw us a curve ball like this. Why in blazes would they all of a sudden change the G Code? It just doesn't make sense.

 All of the bottles described also have Duraglas on the base.

 Link:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Duraglas-Soda-Bottle-Manitowoc-Tastee-Beverage-/251113383822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7786278e


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 4, 2012)

PS ~

 I have heard of the term "Mould Cavity" before but not sure it is accurate. Think about it, there's a G Code for the basic style, which is no doubt in some way related to the mould the bottle was made in. So why have a seperate number for the "Cavity?" Based on my understanding of the word, Cavity means some kind of hole or blank space. Crazy stuff!

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 5, 2012)

Check this out ...

 I've been looking around for Owens-Illinois catalogs and found this one which is described as a *1930* edition. But notice in the text where it states they offer "*Applied Color Lettering*." If this is in fact a 1930 catalog as it claims, then this is the earliest reference I have seen regardng acls.

 This link might not always work. You might have to save and zoom the picture in order to read the text. If you look close on the left side page, fourth sentence, you'll see "Applied Color Lettering." 

 http://libraryexhibits.utad.utoledo.edu/WTX/excase4_1.html


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 5, 2012)

Here's the text only ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 5, 2012)

PS ~

 Maybe (just maybe) some of the Owens-Illinois ACL soda bottles that are dated with a single digit 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 , and don't have Duraglas on them, are in fact 1930 - 1931 - 1932 - 1933 Applied Color Label bottles. Hmmm ... I wonder?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 5, 2012)

I just sent that website the following inquiry ...

 Hi ~

 One of your images states it is a "Glass Containers Catalog - 1930" and is a Owens-Illinois Glass Company catalog. Are you certain it is a 1930 edition? Or is the 1930 a typo and you meant something else like 1930s but forgot the s on the end?

 ~*~

 I'll let you know if/when I hear back from them. If it is in fact a 1930 edition, then this might open up a whole new area of research regarding the earliest acl soda bottles.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 6, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> PS ~
> 
> ...


 

 Perhaps maybe my Crystal Club: G8575: 3 and 4 over 1 with the 1929 design really IS a 1934.  []

 By the way was there ever a consensus on O-I numbering on a bottle that includes the right and left numbers but no number either above or below, like 9 OI 3. ?  I have several of those.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 6, 2012)

bop ~

 I received this message from the catalog guy, so we better not count our chickens just yet ...

 Hello Bob, 

 I will look into this and get back with you. It may be 1930s (just as I indicated 1920s for another image), so a typo is possible. I will have to go into the vault and dig up the catalog to verify the information. Thank you very much for alerting me. I will update you when I am done with the verification and correction.  

 Best regards,

 Arjun


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 6, 2012)

bop ~

 Regarding the other code you asked about, first let's itemize the codes we're are fairly certain of. As we know, the majority of Owens-Illinois soda bottles are embossed on the base with a  ...

 1. Plant number.
 2. Owens-Illinois symbol ... <(I)> ... or ... (I)
 3. Date of manufacturer.
 4. G Style.
 5. Contents amount.

 As for the other code, it appears in a variety of different ways, such as ...

 1. Numbers only. (Single-digit 1 through 9 as well as double-digits as high as 51 and possibly higher)
 2. Number with a letter such as ... 7E ... 2C ... 4A ... etc. 
 3. Number with a dash such as ... 8_
 4. Number with a dot such as ... 3.
 5. And in some cases these codes aren't on a bottle at all.

 There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for this particular code, and yet I'm sure it has a specific reason for being there.

 Please note I am "guessing" here, but the only other thing I can think of that a manufacture would want or need to know about any given bottle is ...

 "Production Count" and/or how many bottles were produced during a particular "Run." But just how the codes in the second list above might translate into some type of "Count," I do not know. Maybe by the gross count or possibly by the case count. I just really don't know, nor am I even sure it has anything to do with a count at all.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 6, 2012)

I forgot one for the top list ...

 6. Duraglas 

 Here's an example of what I call a dash-code ... 6_ 

 But if it is some type of count, I am presently clueless as to how it translates into a production amount.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 6, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 Here's the 51 (with a dot) code I was talking about. Notice this and the last bottle are both style code G 94


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm just leaving for the day and only have a minute to post this brief reply, but I will be back this evening with more. I heard from Arjun and he was able to confirm that ...

 1.  The Owens-Illinois catalog in question is definitely a *1930* edition.

 2.  The catalog uses G Codes but refers to them as "Mould Numbers." (See picture below that Arjun sent me).

 I'll be back.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 10, 2012)

Cropped ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 1 of 4

 (Self Explanatory)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

2 of 4

 Cropped snippet from Page PP2 of 1930 Owens-Illinois catalog. Plus text from snippet word-for-word ... 

 Color is the keystone to modern packaging. It adds an essential touch to
 a SALESpackage and greatly increases its appearance and merchandising
 possibilities. Owens-Illinois offers Applied Color --- vivid and permanent --- fused
 into glass containers. Used as a label, Applied Color Lettering achieves effects 
 far beyond the scope of ordinary labels, be they simple or complex. Applied Color
 can be used to create a distinctive package which automatically increases retailer's 
 cooperation --- cooperation interpreted in special display consideration and unusual
 attention which assures consumer preference and repeat sales.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

3 of 4

 Arjun Sabharwal (who I have had the pleasure of exchanging numerous emails with) said he looked through the "entire" catalog and said the Applied Color Lettering reference on Page PP2 is the "only place" in the catalog where it mentions anything about acl labels. Nowhere does it mention them again nor does it state how a potential customer is supposed to order them. Even though Arjun was as surprised about this lack of information as I am, he was quick to point out their use of the wording, "Owens-Illinois offers Applied Color." With a special emphasis on the word "offers."

 The only thing the two of us came up with that might explain this mystery is the possibility that customers were sent a seperate memo or letter instructing them to ask their sales represenative for more details. But there is definitely no details or ordering information in the catalog itself. So whether or not acls were actually ordered and made as early as 1930 still remains to be seen. Perhaps only by examining a 1931-32-33 catalog will we ever know for certain.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

4 of 4

 Here's page B11 from the catalog titled ...

 "Carbonated Beverage Bottle Standards"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

My next phase of research is to see if I can find bottles that match up with some of the G Codes in the catalog. Er, ah ... I guess what I really mean is "Mould Numbers" with a G. Please help me if you can. I have a few more pages from the catalog that Arjun sent me and that I intend to post in the morning.

 But even if the acl aspect is still in question, at least we know now that Owens-Illinois used G Mould Numbers as early as 1930. All thanks to Mr. Arjun Sabharwal, who just "popped" up outta nowhere.  

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 11, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB -

 What are the mold numbers of the bottle types listed on page B11?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bottleopop
> 
> SODAPOPBOB -
> 
> What are the mold numbers of the bottle types listed on page B11?


 
 bop ~

 There are no Mould Numbers on Page B11. Its just a general reference. But the following might help for starters ...

 I wish I could post the pages larger, but every time I try it tells me "File Is Too Large."  So I have no choice except to reduce it to an acceptable size. Anyway, this is one of about four combo pages titled "Licensend Patented Bottles," that shows several non-acls, many of which you will likely recognize. Of particular interest is the Dr. Pepper bottle on the left that is listed under Mould Number *G-994*

 Please check your Owens-Illinois Dr. Pepper bottles and see if any of them have the same or a similar mould number. I have about four of them I intend to dig out and check in the morning.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 Dr. Pepper ~ 1930 ~ G-994


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

PS ~

 The "Kist" bottle on the far right is Mould Number *G-932*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 Tomorrow I will list the Mould Numbers on every soda bottle I have a picture of. But its going to take me a little while because it totals about 50 individual bottles.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 11, 2012)

Wow, that's a nice resource!

 I only collect decos so I can only offer info. on them.

 I have only 1 Dr. Pepper that indicates it was made by Owens Illinois and it has no mold number.
 (By the way, the catalog says "Mold", not "Mould", as Mould is the Canadian/British spelling.)

 It's the same with my Kist bottles except for two slightly different kinds of 28oz deco bottles and their mold numbers are G1102 and G1103.

 I wonder if the catalog has more than one size of Blue Bird bottle with different mold numbers listed, etc.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

bop ~

 You're right, the spelling in the catalog is Mold without a u. Its hard for me to remember to write it that way because I am used to mould. Mold makes me think of a green fungus.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

First of all ...

 I checked my four embossed Dr. Pepper bottles but only one of them is an Owens-Illinois 23 <(I)> 47 (1947) but does not have a G Mold number on it.

 Secondly ...

 Here is a list of the first of three double-page 1930 catalog images that Arjun sent me. They appear to be photographs and not scans. But whichever the case, some of the information and numbers are hard to make out. When I zoom in on them all it does is cause them to blurr. But I believe they are accurate for the most part. This first one is from pages B12 and B13. I am only listing the Brand name and Mold Numbers and not including the additional information which includes Fluid Ounces ~ Weight In Ounces ~ Height In Inches. All are listed as having Crown Finishes. They are listed according to the text at the bottom of the page which is not necessarily in the same sequence as the pictures. The catalog category is "Licensed Patented Sodas."

 Vess Dry ~ G-1002
 Johnny Bull ~ G-6532
 Chocolate Mellow ~ G-1012
 Blue Bird ~ G-845
 Dr. Pepper ~ G-904 (In my previous post I incorrectly said G-994)
 Double Strength ~ G-902
 Moxie ~ G-1014
 Virgil's ~ G-1005
 Try-Me Pale ~ G-1000
 Thrill ~ G-994
 Kist ~ G-932
 Grape Ola ~ G-911
 Cascade ~ G-861
 Brownie ~ G-852

 [ More Later ]


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## bottleopop (Dec 11, 2012)

Very interesting!

 I hope that you can at least include fluid ounces since that results in a different mold number - size matters!
 The others, I agree, are details.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

Let's try it this way instead and see if the info is easier to read ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

Next one ... 2 of 3


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

Last one ... 3 of 3


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

Reminder ...

 All of the above bottles are 1930 examples and embossed only. No acls are listed.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 11, 2012)

It case it hasn't dawned on anyone yet, there are going to be multiple challenges involved with trying to match up the 1930 mold numbers from the catalog to actual bottles, which are ...

 1. I can't recall ever seeing a confirmed 1930 Owens-Illinois bottle irregardless of whether it had a mold number or not.
 2. Even 1931 through 1933 examples are not that abundant, nor are they likely going to be easy to identify and find either.
 3. Its possible that the catalog mold numbers weren't even embossed on the bottles.

 If someone finds even one Owens-Illinois embossed only bottle with a mold number on it, even if the date is questionable, please share it with the rest of us for evaluation. Just one confirmed non acl from circa 1930 to 1933 with a mold number on it is all it would take to make my day. 

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 11, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB -

 I like the pages!
 I am typing them into a spreadsheet.

 I am hoping that you could provide corrections if I either post the spreadsheet's pages here in draft form or send them to you first.
 Then the spreadsheet pages can be shown here.


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## wisodas (Dec 20, 2012)

From a Wisconsin soda water bottle perspective:  The Owens-Illinois Glass company plants 9, 7, and 3 located in Streator, Illinois; Alton, Illinois; and Fairmont, West Virginia used design numbers designated by the letter G followed by a 2, 3, 4, or 5 digit number.  And the design numbers were shared by the 3 plants - in other words a bottle blown in a G94 mold would look the same from Streator, Alton, or Fairmont.
 The design numbers have nothing to do with glass color, and donâ€™t indicate whether a bottle had applied color lettering or not.  They simply indicated a particular body shape, height, diameter, capacity, and embossed decoration in the form of lettering, ribbing, texturing, etc.  Of course, certain, plainer designs lent themselves to ACL lettering better than others.  On later bottles there is usually a dash between the G and the number.
 From a quick perusal of my Wisconsin cataloging information, the earliest OI design number I saw was on a 1930 â€œquartâ€ proprietary design bottle from Green Bay (G1657), although early 1930â€™s OI bottles usually donâ€™t have a design number.  I also saw G211 on a 1931 quart proprietary soda bottle from Chippewa Falls.
 In general, 2 digit design numbers seem to have been used for fairly plain, unembossed soda bottles.  G94 refers to an unembossed 7 ounce capacity bottle.  G76 is its 12 ounce counterpart.  And G102 is commonly used for unembossed 24 ounce â€œquartsâ€.  The preceding three bottles were extensively in ACL bottle production.  As additional examples, G127 is a bottle with textured sides, and G491 is a 32 ounce bottle with textured sides and smooth areas for the application of ACL labels.  
 Early 3 digit OI design numbers seem to occur on national brand bottles like Orange Crush and Dr. Pepper.  4-digit numbers occur on proprietary and plate mold bottles starting in the 1930â€™s.  5-digit numbers started appearing after 1950.  The design numbers have nothing to do with U. S. design patent numbers.  Alton used four digit design numbers on its bottles in the 1920â€™s, but OI did not seem to adopt those numbers.  Root Glass Co, used 2, 3, and 4 digit design numbers, often associated with one or two letters.  And Thatcher used 4-digit design numbers on its soda water bottles in the late 1940â€™s-early 1950â€™s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

wisodas ~

 Welcome to the forum.

 The information you posted is exactly the sort of think I have been hoping to uncover for a long time now but just never had enough bottles to make comparisons with. It will require a little time to digest everything you posted, but it is definitely very helpful from a collector's stand point. It appears you have spent a great deal of time examinining a whole bunch of different Owens-Illinois bottles from various time periods, and are to be commended both for your time and dedication. I for one truly appreciate it. Perhaps it would interest you to take a look at another thread here on the forum regarding a similar discussion. Its the one titled "Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke." Please check it out and see what you think.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## wisodas (Dec 21, 2012)

Bob,

 I guess I should be calling "design numbers" by their name in the OI catalog - "mold numbers".  And the numbers usually located below the OI symbol I should be calling â€œmold cavity numbersâ€.  I've been cataloging Wisconsin OI soda bottles for 40 years and always called mold numbers "design numbers", and mold cavity numbers I referred to as "mold numbers".

 So, in an OI glass bottle factory there would be a bunch of G94 molds sitting on the shelf, ready to use.  And it is likely that the mold number AND the mold cavity number would also be lettered on the outside of the mold.  That way, if defective bottles started appearing on the line, one could check the mold cavity number embossed below the OI symbol on the defective bottles, and, in turn, yank the offending mold.

 I did read through some of the comments on Guam Coca-Cola bottles, and while I am not familiar with the glass company marks on those bottles, it did remind me of something Iâ€™ve been puzzled about for years with respect to Wisconsin Coca-Cola bottles.  Many Wisconsin Coca-Cola bottles were blown by the Chattanooga Glass Co.  Their mark in the 1940â€™s was a (1 or 2 digit mold cavity number) (C in a circle) (last 2 digits of the year manufactured).  For example, for Madison, Chattanooga blew bottles dated 47 (1947) using dozens of different mold cavity numbers.  And for 1948 the same thing, etc.  Are they really mold cavity numbers?  Or is this something else about glass bottle manufacturing that I donâ€™t understand?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Roger ~

 I have seen references to the term "cavity" numerous times but am totally confused about it, which you might be able to educate me on. As we know, the word "cavity" is defined as a blank or empty space. So why would a mold shop need two seperate numbers, one for the mold itself and one for the mold's "empty space?" For me it just doesn't make sense. I once read, but have since lost track of the link, that stated the bottom number ... (with the example below being a 3 - which I inserted the dots to center it)

 20 <(I)> 48
 .......3........

 ... was a "production indicator," meaning that certain molds were prone to greater use, and that the higher the number the higher the typical production count. In other words, a number 3 might indicate a typical production run of 3,000 bottles for a particular mold, whereas a number 6 indicates a typical production run of 6,000 bottles. Have you ever heard of this before? And is it possibly true?

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

I just spent the last hour re-researching the terms Mold vs Cavity and am 99.9% certain now what the bottom, or so called cavity numbers represent. I had forgotten, and was reminded during the course of my recent research, that bottle making machines use anywhere from two to as many as twenty-four molds at the same time. When I/we talk about molds it is easy to forget this and to assume that only a single mold is being discussed. But when you take into account how many molds are used at the same time, then we begin to realize the need for "individual cavity numbers." In other words, let's say a bottle making machine is being set up to make a bunch of G-94 bottles, and the bottle machine is designed to handle ten molds at the same time. The mold guy would then install the ten G-94 molds into the machine and proceed accordingly, which is easy enough to understand. But "what if" the bottle inspection guy at the end of the production line all of a sudden started detecting flaws in a some of the bottles? How would he know which mold was the problem mold without having a reference number of some type to refer to? 

 Answer:  Each of the ten molds being used has a "seperate cavity number." Thus, all the inspection guy has to do is to pull the problem mold from the bottle making machine and either repair, eliminate, or replace it with a new mold. But without knowing the particular "cavity number" he would have no way of knowing which of the ten molds was the problem child. 

 Case closed? For me it is. But you will have to decide for yourself. 

 Bob

 "It is well known in the bottle making art that many defects are cavity oriented. That is, a particular mold, of a plurality of molds, will tend to continue to produce a particular defect once the conditions are present to create the defect. It is thus necessary to determine which mold out of multiple molds is producing a defective bottle so that corrective measures may be taken. To this end, it is a common practice to mold into the bottom of containers a digital representation of the mold of origin; i.e., a bottle produced by mold number 7 will have a small numeral 7 molded into the bottom of the bottle. However, such markings are not readily readable by electronic means and require that each bottle be picked up to read the number. If each bottle from a particular mold is to be discarded, a person must memorize the complex pattern in which a particular mold's products will be distributed across the width of an annealing lehr and discard bottles based on this pattern. As may be appreciated, this procedure frequently results in the discard of some good bottles while allowing defective ones to pass, since confusion as to the pattern is common."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Here's a perfect example of a G-94 style mold with a 51 cavity number. If this particular mold was being used at the same time on a ten mold machine, then the cavity numbers would be different on each of the ten molds.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Here's your typical Owens-Illinois chart. Notice at the bottom of the text the reference to "cavity number." But also notice that it doesn't define in any way, shape, or manner exactly what the term cavity means. I hope my explanation puts it into laymen terms where others (like on this chart) have failed.

 Bob


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## wisodas (Dec 22, 2012)

Bob,
 In the later 1910â€™s and through the 1920â€™s, a typical order for embossed soda water bottles blown on an Owens machine at the American Bottle Co. plant in Streator, Illinois would be blown in a pair of molds.

 (Toulouse writes in error about the bottles produced at Streator between 1915 and 1929 (pp 454-455).  The most common designation was like â€œ17 S 1â€ or â€œ17 S 2â€ (not â€œS17â€), with this arrangement commonly used up through 1929, and in a couple isolated cases, as late as 1933.  Bottles blown at the Newark, Ohio plant of the American Bottle Co. may not have used this designation (â€œ18 N 1â€) as extensively as it was used at Streator.  (Very few Wisconsin bottles were blown at Newark, so I have an extremely limited number of examples to draw on.))

 I have digressed â€“ typical American Bottle Co. orders would be blown in a pair of molds, numbered â€œ1â€ and â€œ2â€.  I suppose these would be mold cavity numbers.  Mold cavity numbers higher than 2 are less common among 1915 to 1929 embossed bottles, but they do exist.  I know Iâ€™ve seen 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 10.  And even higher numbers on unembossed beer and soda water bottles, which unfortunately I have not made notes about.  There seem to be singular instances of mold cavity numbers 1 through 10.  These seem to be smaller orders of bottles â€“ the bottles are indeed rarer - and the mold cavity numbers most commonly seen on these are 1 and 3 through 10.

 After 1929, Owens-Illinois continued the paired cavity mold numbers, but instead of 1 and 2, one starts to see 1 and 1., 2 and 2., 3 and 3., etc., and even later sometimes 1 and 1_, 2 and 2_, 3 and 3_, etc.  For example I have examined thirteen quart ACL Badger State bottles from Darlington, Wisconsin which were blown in standard G102 molds.  The mold cavity numbers Iâ€™ve noted so far include 1, 5, 5., 7, 11, 11., 12, and 12..  Presumably there exists a 1. and a 7. and likely other pairs of numbers.  The mold cavity numbers would not be tied the number of bottles scheduled to be blown, but are just mold cavity numbers.

 So what is the reason for pairs of molds?  In your photo of the 51., there would be a corresponding 51 (without the period) mold cavity number.  Incidentally there are no â€œmold numbersâ€, as designated in the 1930 OI catalog, on any of these 1915 to 1929 bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

wiso ~

 That's your new name because you are a wealth of knowledge. A lot of the info you've been contributing has never seen the light of day that I am aware of. Textbook stuff. Good job. The factual and comprehensive manner in which you explain it is to be commended. Its obvious you've been around your share of bottles. Next I am going to print out your info so I can have it handy to read and soak up. After that I have a bunch of bottles to look at so I can start experimenting with this new found information you've provided.

 Thanks again & Happy Holidays

 Bob


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## bottleopop (Dec 22, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB -

 I was thinking the same thing - the number below the OI symbol was the number of a cavity in the bottle making machine.  However, based on the data I collected from the OI bottles that I have (basically it's a statistical sample), there are way too many bottles where the number is "1".  The frequency of the numbers I have agrees what wisodas is saying he has seen.  Here is the data using the name Cavity number currently used in here:

```
Cavity# Count
 1	53
 2	12
 3	5
 4	2
 5	3
 6	1
 7	1
 9	1
 10	1
 1.	27
 2.	1
 none	37
```
So, 53 bottles have a 'cavity number' = "1".  Also, 37 bottles have no third number; they have only the plant number and the 'date code' number.
 I don't know what the dot means after the cavity number, but obviously 27 bottles are not cavity #11, they are more likely just a different way of writing a number 1.  These numbers don't appear to exemplify what wisodas was saying about pairs of cavity mold numbers.

 The only theory I can come up with at this point that could fit this data, and I don't think it's a very good one, is that the number identifies an entire bottle-making machine.  So, if a plant had 2 bottle-making machines making bottles with Mold # G1234, then one machine would be #1 and the other machine would be #2.  So bottles in the production line could be identified as to which machine made it.  This theory is based on the supposition that usually only one machine would be making a bottle with a particular mold number, and I really have no idea how many machines was typical for a plant making one mold number of bottle at any given time.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

bop ~

 1. Are the 53 bottles yours? 

 2. If yours, what is the date range on the 53 bottles that have the number 1

 3. What did you mean when you said "used in here" in your comments?

 "Here is the data using the name Cavity number currently used in here."

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## wisodas (Dec 22, 2012)

"Also, 37 bottles have no third number; they have only the plant number and the 'date code' number. "

 With regard to missing mold cavity numbers - sometimes the mold cavity number is located on the back or front heel of the bottle.

 Both the American Bottle Co. at Streator, and the OI company at Streator put mold cavity numbers on the back or front heel.


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## bottleopop (Dec 22, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB -

 1. Yes, I own them all.  They are in my house.

 2. Single digit 'dates' for those are: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1., 3., 4., 5., 7. and double-digit dates for those are: 45, 47, 48, 49, 51, 52, 53, 54, 58, and 66  Some occur more than once.

 3.  As currently used in this forum.


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## bottleopop (Dec 22, 2012)

wisodas -

 I included those that have the digit on the heel already.  The 37 didn't have the number on the heel either.


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## squirtbob (Dec 24, 2012)

I don't know if this will make your day or not. I'm not familiar with this Turk's Head Beverage bottle but it is embossed and does have a G Code on the heel G3003.  I did not locate any Owens-Illinois markings on the bottom of the bottle. Perhaps one of the Rhode Island experts can help.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> It case it hasn't dawned on anyone yet, there are going to be multiple challenges involved with trying to match up the 1930 mold numbers from the catalog to actual bottles, which are ...
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 24, 2012)

Bob ~

 Thanks for sharing your non-acl with us. Even though it doesn't have an Owens-Illinois symbol on it, does it happen to have a different makers mark? Its possible it was made by a different glass company. I am only speculating when I say this, but its starting to look as if almost everyone used a G in some manner when related to different codes. I can't say for certain, but I'd bet money that G stands for "Glass."

 Bob


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## squirtbob (Dec 24, 2012)

Bob, I can't locate any manufacturer's mark on the bottle and the bottle is in excellent condition.  I was thinking that G Codes related only to Owens Illinois bottles. I do not see G codes on any other bottles. Looking closer the G Code on this bottle appears as follows:
 G 3003 1    Perhaps one of the Rhode Island collectors has this 8 oz bowling pin style bottle to compare it with. I'd also be curious to know how old it is?


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Bob ~
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 24, 2012)

squirtbob ~

 I spoke in error this morning and actually intended to post a two part comment that somehow blended into one. Here's what I meant to say ...

 Part one: That other glass makers also used style codes, such as those mentioned by member wisoda when he said, "Root Glass Co, used 2, 3, and 4 digit design numbers, often associated with one or two letters. And Thatcher used 4-digit design numbers on its soda water bottles in the late 1940â€™s-early 1950â€™s."

 Part two: On bottles that use a G, I bet it stands for Glass.

 Regarding your Rhode Island bottle? No clue ... unless its true that Owens-Illinois was the only company to use G's, except I've never seen an O-I bottle that wasn't marked with either ... <(I)> ... or ... (I) ... ???

 Like you said, maybe a Rhode Island collector has some ideas.

 Thanks and Merry Christmas

 Bob


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## wisodas (Dec 26, 2012)

There certainly could be Owens-Illinois bottles that lack the OI symbol.  If it says G3003 1, that sounds to me like Owens-Illinois mold design G3003 and mold cavity number 1.

 Root Glass Co. mold numbers look much different than Owens-Illinois numbers.  The Root Glass Co. 4-digit numbers and accompanying letters were invariably created with steel punches that produced very uniform-looking, squared-off looking letters and numbers.  I'm not sure exactly how to describe the lettering, but anyone who has seen 1909 to 1931 RGCO and ROOT bottles knows how distinct that lettering is.  1909 to 1931 Root bottles were usually marked on the heel, but sometimes on the bottom of the bottle.

 The Graham glass companies also used steel number and letter punches.

 The Chattanooga Glass Co. transitioned from hand-cut to machine-punch lettering in the 1940's for mold numbers and dates on Coca-Cola bottles.


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## bottleopop (Dec 26, 2012)

I looked for things that looked like G mold numbers with no O-I symbol among my bottles.  All I found was examples of the same kind of thing --
 I have a bottle with G9482 30E ("Famous"), and one (8.5oz) with G9625 30E and one (24oz) with G9626 30E (both "Royal Beverage Co."), and a G10143 30E ("Epping"), and a G10488 30E ("Serenader's").

 Does "30E" indicate a transition from American Bottle Company to Owens-Illinois?  There is no glass company mark on these bottles, unless 30E is one.

 I was looking at the G numbers on the two Royal bottles just now and those numbers are crudely formed and on the heel.  The 30E is on the base (underside).


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bottleopop
> 
> I looked for things that looked like G mold numbers with no O-I symbol among my bottles.  All I found was examples of the same kind of thing --
> I have a bottle with G9482 30E ("Famous"), and one (8.5oz) with G9625 30E and one (24oz) with G9626 30E (both "Royal Beverage Co."), and a G10143 30E ("Epping"), and a G10488 30E ("Serenader's").
> ...


 
 bop ~

 The following is copy/pasted from Page #5 / Post #86 of a thread I started on September 29, 2011 titled "Earliest Owens-Illinois Soda Bottle Mark (Non-Acl)" Since I don't believe its a coincedence, I am of the opinion the E Bill Porter refers to and your E are one and the same. The only thing I'm a little confused about is the 30. Are the bottles you indicated acls or embossed only?

 Thanks.

 Bob

 [ From September of 2011 ]

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-453203/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm

 I contacted Bill Porter today and he sent me a list with 43 Coca Cola hobbleskirts, all of which were the Patent 1923 bottles from 22 different states. Every one of them was made at the Owens-Illinois plant no.11 in Evansville, Indiana. All are basically marked the same and look something like this ... 

 11 <(I)> 30E

 All have a double-digit 30 for 1930. The E stands for Evansville. 

 But we need to be reminded that those early Coca Cola bottles are exceptions to the rule. If you have read Bill Lockhart's Owens-Illinois article, you will recall he discussed these Coca Cola bottles seperately, and that the Coca Cola Company had spefic guidelines regarding the manufacturing of their particular bottles. And because of their requirement to have their bottles made with double-digit date codes, it appears to me they had the smarts to foresee problems with single-digit dates. Of course, Coca Cola was (and still is) the big dog in town, so whatever they wanted, they got! Can you imagine how big of an account a Coca Cola account must have been? 

 So even though I have yet to see another "for sure" 1930 Owens-Illinois soda bottle, because of Bill Porter's invaluable assistence, we know for certain now that they do in fact exist. Thanks, Bill. You're the man!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 26, 2012)

PS ~

 Regarding my confusion ...

 If bop's bottles are acls, then the presence of a 30 (1930) doesn't seem to jive. The earliest acl I am aware of is a 1934.

 Bob


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## wisodas (Dec 26, 2012)

[/quote]I looked for things that looked like G mold numbers with no O-I symbol among my bottles. All I found was examples of the same kind of thing --
 I have a bottle with G9482 30E ("Famous"), and one (8.5oz) with G9625 30E and one (24oz) with G9626 30E (both "Royal Beverage Co."), and a G10143 30E ("Epping"), and a G10488 30E ("Serenader's"). [/quote]

 To my way of thinking these are Graham Glass - Evansville plant products from 1930.


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## bottleopop (Dec 26, 2012)

SODAPOPBOB: 





> If bop's bottles are acls


 I only collect glass-decorated bottles; not ACLs.  ACLs are nice, but I don't collect them.  

 wisodas: 





> To my way of thinking these are Graham Glass - Evansville plant products from 1930.


  Thank you!  It's all coming together now 

 Very interesting about the 30E marks on Bill Porter's Coca Cola bottles!

 I see on page 50 of the Coca Cola article by Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter that Graham Glass used a double-digit date code in the format GYY starting in 1920.  I have Graham bottles with date codes G25, G26, G27, G28, and G29.  In 1929, Owens Bottle Company (Owens actually owned Graham Glass since 1916) merged with the Illinois Glass Company.  One of the Graham Glass locations was Evansville, Indiana.

 Apparently 30E is a 1-year type of date code used by the glass plant in Evansville in 1930.  Possibly the date code of "0" on the right of the Owens-Illinois symbol was used at the same time.  The few 'date code' "0" that I have are from plants #7 and #9.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 9, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> [ Page 1 of 4 ]
> 
> ...


 
*This is from the 2007 November-December issue of "the Soda Fizz" magazine.

 Scroll to page 21 under the heading of "Bases and Heels." Read the last paragraph that starts with "Many of the post-1937 Seven-Up bottles ..." *

 http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/thesodafizz/SevenUp_BLockhart.pdf


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