# "Noble Catcher" Is this a Cyrus Noble Whiskey Bottle?



## CarltonHendricks (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi, I'm new here and can't seem to figure out how to upload photos...So I'll cut to the chase...

 http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147839
 I just got a figural bottle shaped like a baseball player with the name "Noble Catcher" at the bottom. It looks like about 1880's to me. You can see it in the link above....Please advsie if you know anything about it. Thanks -Carlton


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## blobbottlebob (Feb 20, 2012)

Welcome Carlton.
 I've never seen anything like it. Interesting link there. Hopefully someone here will know. You came to the right place.


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## blobbottlebob (Feb 20, 2012)

Let me try this . . .


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## surfaceone (Feb 20, 2012)

There'ya go Jordyn,

 Welcome to the A-BN.

 Weren't the decanters painted?


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi Bob, Wow that's great...because I've been hitting brick walls....a rep from Cyrus Noble emailed me today...our exchange below:

 _______________________________________________________
 Below: email exchange with Haas Bro., Parent concern of Cyrus Noble Whiskey

_Hello, 
 Carlton Hendricks here with SportsAntiques.com. Would you have a company historian or archivist? Iâ€™m researching the attached figural bottle of a c1880 baseball player with the name â€œNoble Catcherâ€ at the bottom. Would you know if this was produced by Cyrus Noble? The top is missing on mine and Iâ€™m hoping to find one with the original top so I can copy it. I presume it was shaped like a baseball cap...perhaps a pillbox style one.

 Please advise any knowledge or help you can offer. Thanks
 Kindly,
 -Carlton
 www.SportsAntiques.com

 _________________________________________________________

 My apologies sir, but we have no company histrorian or archivist. In the 15 years that I've worked for Haas Brothers, I have not heard of a 19th century decanter for Cyrus Noble. We did a successful ceramic decanter program in the 1970's, but in the 19th century I'm only aware of a shot-glass series. I'm sorry I can't give a definitive answer, but as far as I've ever heard, this wouldn't be a decanter produced by/for Cyrus Noble Bourbon.
 Thank you for your inquiry,
 Jake Lustig
 National Sales Manager
 Haas Brothers | Since 1851
 San Francisco, California

 ________________________________________________________

 Hi Jake, 
 Thanks for you email. Iâ€™d be very surprised if it turns out to not be a Cyrus Noble bottle. Iâ€™ll continue my journey looking for answers.. Above is a link to more photos and discussion on it, that I posted on a forum I frequent...no answers yet though...FYI, at the end I mention two people who havenâ€™t seen it; Keith Schneider and Josh Evans....when those two havenâ€™t seen it....itâ€™s rare! Point being, itâ€™s so rare, you/the Cyrus Noble entity, may not even know of it. The second one of the â€œNoble Pitcherâ€ seen in my post adds further intrigue...

 BTW I have the large c1900 â€œFaroâ€ Cyrus Noble sign which you may be familiar with....In my opinion, as it relates to my bottle, that sign, poignant as it is, shows that Cyrus Noble marketing had flair back in the day and is consistent with the flair my bottle would have had in 1880. Maybe youâ€™re right itâ€™s not a Cyrus Noble bottle...but Iâ€™m not ready to fold yet.

 One last question: Will it be OK to post your reply on my site? As I will be doing a feature on it and would like to document what I learn as part of itâ€™s history.
 Kindly â€“Carlton



 Sure, Carlton, post away and frankly I admire your determination. The Faro Game program was indeed a major marketing effort and as you say, the brand had and has much flair! It would be wonderful to learn of the origins of your decanter bottle, and of course would add to my knowledge of Cyrus Noble's early days. Thank you again for your efforts, good luck with the pursuit!
 Jake Lustig
 National Sales Manager
 Haas Brothers | Since 1851
 San Francisco, California_


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## epackage (Feb 20, 2012)

That mold seam I see in the shot from behind makes me think later than 1900 as it goes al the way thru the lip.....I can't wait to see what you find out....If it's that old I'm shocked it's the first we're seeing of it here.....Jim


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## Wheelah23 (Feb 20, 2012)

Ground lip bottles like this one, the seam goes to the top of the lip...

 Very cool bottle, by the way... I wouldn't be surprised if it's as old as you say.


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input..especailly for posting the photos...from here on it's a waiting game to see what your community has to say over the next few days or so...I just got an email from Reggie Lynch of antiquebottles.com....said was he wasn't familiar with it....


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

Wheelah23, Can you elaborate...what's a "ground lip" bottle?


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## CreekWalker (Feb 21, 2012)

Ray Noble, Cuban league and Negro league, catcher? Born 1919.


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

> Ray Noble, Cuban league and Negro league


 
 Creek, Thanks much....a very good factoid....I looked him up and he was a catcher...and started playing in 1945....But the bottle looks much older....plus there's a "Noble Pitcher" as well and he wasn't a pitcher....darn good try but I'm dismissing it....Nevertheless thanks very much..any lead is a good lead at this point.

_Ray Noble 

 Born: March 15, 1919 in Central Hatillo, Cuba 
 Died: May 9, 1998 in Brooklyn, NY
 Ht:5'-11", Wt: 220 
 Batted and threw right
 Position: catcher 
 Playing Years: 1945-61
 Teams: New York Cubans, New York Giants (majors), Oakland Oaks (minors)_


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## CreekWalker (Feb 21, 2012)

I would look under tobacco card era players. Maybe an obscure player or is this a representative player bottle , noble simply meaning honorable, brave and true. I looks quite victorian!


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## botlguy (Feb 21, 2012)

Being a baseball fan and an old catcher myself, I would say that the style of uniform, mustach (sp) and such would indicate that the player himself, regardless of who manufactured the bottle or filled it, was from before 1900. 1880 might be a bit early but I wouldn't count it out just yet.

 Fun item, I look forward to the solving of the mystery. GOOD STUFF ! ! !

 P.S. If this were 1965 - 75 I would know exactly who to ask but the're dead.   RIP


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

Cuba and other countries still make bottles that appear old but may not be.
 It's possible it's a Cuban commemorative from RAFAEL â€˜RAYâ€™ NOBLE 's induction to the Cuban Hall of Fame even as late as 1985.
 Just a thought.


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

Here's a pair.
 711FIGURAL BOTTLES - Pair of early 20th C. frosted cologne bottles. #1 - depicts a baseball pitcher in period uniform, marked 'Noble Pitcher' on base. #2 - depicts a baseball catcher in period uniform, marked 'Noble Catcher' on base. Each bottle has open unt$ 200.00 			
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



FROM


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

> Maybe an obscure player or is this a representative player bottle , noble simply meaning honorable, brave and true.


That may apply here with the above "noble pitcher" and "noble catcher". 
 Good call ump.


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## Buffalo Hunter (Feb 21, 2012)

Not a sports kinda person but does the picture on the left look like he's holding a stick/bat like use in Cricket to anyone else?


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Buffalo Hunter
> 
> Not a sports kinda person but does the picture on the left look like he's holding a stick/bat like use in Cricket to anyone else?


Hmmm, a lot of those TOC figurals were French made for export. I can't see the bat in the pic but Cricket isn't out of the question.


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## bostaurus (Feb 21, 2012)

Don't know that cricket would work...not up on my cricket but I don't think there is a "catcher" position.


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## surfaceone (Feb 21, 2012)

Hey Carlton,

 I see that you are intent on getting to the bottom of this mystery.






 "Only on line reference found from a 2008 auction, with "Noble Pitcher" mate

 I feel confident it was a Cyrus Noble Whiskey bottle. I can only find one reference to it online. There was one that sold at an auction in Feb. 2008 along with a mate â€œNoble Pitcherâ€â€¦.The listing refers to them as cologne bottles, but 12â€ tall seems big for a cologne bottle. There was and still is a Whiskey called Cyrus Noble Whiskey. From what I can ascertain Cyrus Noble Whiskey first appeared around the late 1870â€™s and was most famous in San Francisco and the west. 

 It was supposed to be just a quick run thru the mall as I was supposed to shortly meet up with friends at a nearby movie theaterâ€¦So I sort of had to buy it in a hurryâ€¦run to the movie and dinner afterwardsâ€¦by the time I got home it was late and I finally got a chance to look it over. Phew!...It was one of those purchases where after the dust settled I was very I glad I pulled the trigger!!...

 I found a guy online in Seattle that does artistic glass restorationâ€¦After some discussion and photos to show him what I wanted he quoted me $800.00 to $1,000.00 to create a glass top shaped like a pill box capâ€¦He explained the process heâ€™d have to go thru â€¦including matching the frosted finishâ€¦and that he anticipated he would need to make several before getting it right if he could do it at allâ€¦He wasnâ€™t positive he could match the finish but was willing to tryâ€¦.so his price made senseâ€¦..and could even be a bargain!

 On the other hand I was perplexed what the original cap looked like and was made ofâ€¦.I would be using artistic license by creating a pill box cap top since Iâ€™ve never seen the original and would only be guesstimatingâ€¦.After I got the $800.00 to $1,000.00 estimate I started thinking it thru and wondered if the top was originally glass after all. I speculated a fine decorative decanter would have been glass but a production bottle wouldnâ€™t have." From.

 Cyrus Noble did have a line of painted decanters 1n the 1970-1982ish range. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


From.




From. Have you enquired HERE? This might also be a place to ASK.

 As Eric has mentioned, it may be French made. The frosted glass and ground lip are distantly tinkling French bells to me. His uniform shirt seems to be consistent with the 1900-1910ish time period, per this page.






 "U. Pennsylvania  c1900 Complete Game Worn Baseball Uniform" From.




From.


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

Hello all,
 Well day one and I'm not seeing anything that sticks...

 Buffallo Hunter, the pitcher's left hand is holding a ball....the cricket bat is just an optical illusion....

 cowseatmaize, 
_Cuba and other countries still make bottles that appear old but may not be. 
 It's possible it's a Cuban commemorative from RAFAEL â€˜RAYâ€™ NOBLE 's induction to the Cuban Hall of Fame even as late as 1985. 
 Just a thought. _ 
 I'm going to keep the Cuban connection under my hat....I'm not seeing it if for no other reason than the ancient-tique of the patina...but...I won't toss it out completly for now....not to throw gas on the fire but I have seen Cuban figural bottles of baseball players...but they represented teams, the the Almendares and Havanas.... 






_Courtesy Hunt Auctions_
 Lot 240
 Description: Rare pair of Cuban figural baseball liquor bottles c.1952. Painted glass decanters representing the Almendares and Havanas teams in unopened original condition. Obtained by Jacobs while playing in Cuba, 13â€ tall with only very minor age wear: EX-MT 
 Sold For: $650.00

 Estimated Price: $350.00-$450.00


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

Well I finally got one measly photo to manifest of the Cuban liquor bottles...not where I wanted them really ARRGGHH
 but up there!

 Not of huge consequence but below, an interesting news clipping out of an 1898 Sporting Life magazine, just graciously received from fellow sports collector Shawn England re Cyrus Noble sponsoring a baseball trophy in Manila...now we have documentation CN was actively pursuing baseball as an advertising vehicle as early as 1898.....Don't get excited LOL....it doesn't prove the bottle is Philippino!

 Shawn also sent a vintage CY print ad referencing James H. McLeod as a CN agent in Mexico located at No.13 Coliseo Viejo, which I believe was in Mexico City....

 So there we have it...Cyrus Noble was an international brand early on....Cyrus Noble in the Philippines....Cyrus Noble in Mexico....And baseball was played in both countries....However....I doubt Cyrus Noble was bottled outside the United States...it was likely imported into those countries....which would negate a foreign bottler producing it for Cyrus Noble...It's just conjecture but I don't think these references have a bearing on this bottle....I don't think!

 Now the photo box won't let me upload more than one photo...so below direct links AAARRRGGGHHH

https://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc120/CarltonHendricks/NewsClippingManilaBBRED.jpg


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## epackage (Feb 21, 2012)

I am truely intrigued and mesmerized to see what comes of this....Jim


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> I am truely intrigued and mesmerized to see what comes of this....Jim


 
 I am too...I just wish someone would cough it up!....Let me ask this...How many bottles are this mysterious that you get on here?


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## epackage (Feb 21, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  CarltonHendricks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 There have been many mysterious bottles to be honest but because of the rich history of baseball and sports this has me on my seat. I think it's elevated because it's such a "cross collectible" that I would have expected to find info about a baseball collection online with a few in them and some info....Jim

 As a member who thrives on doing research here along with my buddy Surfaceone I both love and hate your bottle[8D]...Jim


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

Really great stuff and I'm fascinated. Thanks for all the research. I'm not a sports person but the bottle aspect has me. 
 You must realize that Cyrus Noble, patina and glass making are all only partly connected though. The frosting shouldn't be confused with patina if that's what it is. Without actually holding it it's difficult for me to say of it's acid wash, powder blast or naturally occurring. Cyrus Noble in the earliest days probably didn't use glass and the commemoratives most likely didn't start until the time Jim Beam and others did, say 50's and 60's for the most part.
 I think the French connection as Surface tended to agree with, can't be ignored. You mention Mexico also which was another big contributor to new glass looking old.
 Everything I'm saying is speculation and theory but with a trace of glass knowledge.
 I look forward to more and thanks for the lively and great post to talk about!


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 21, 2012)

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147839
 Cowseatmaize, You got it amigo, my pleasure...If I may....for everyone who has read all this, inluding my post on Net54Baseball linked above....Based on what we know (or don't know) thus far....what say yee? Can I see a thumb up if you think it's by Cyrus Noble...and a thumbs down  if not?



> ORIGINAL:  cowseatmaize
> 
> Really great stuff and I'm fascinated. Thanks for all the research. I'm not a sports person but the bottle aspect has me.
> You must realize that Cyrus Noble, patina and glass making are all only partly connected though. The frosting shouldn't be confused with patina if that's what it is. Without actually holding it it's difficult for me to say of it's acid wash, powder blast or naturally occurring. Cyrus Noble in the earliest days probably didn't use glass and the commemoratives most likely didn't start until the time Jim Beam and others did, say 50's and 60's for the most part.
> ...


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## epackage (Feb 21, 2012)

Carlton I have to be thumbs in the middle right now, I have some old Bottle Collector magazines from the 60-70's and a few are dedicated to figurals and I'll see what I can find....Jim


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 21, 2012)

If your taking a poll now I would be in the nay. 
 Sorry about that but as a glass collector I just don't see American made.
 I agree with your blog thing. It most likely had a cork with some other material top rather than an all glass top. Many ground top bottles also had a glued metal top with some other way of opening it, ie screw cap, flip open or other as part of the closure. I'll see if I can find an example but inks, colognes, oil lamps and others were made that way for a long time.


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## surfaceone (Feb 21, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  CarltonHendricks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hey Carlton,

 Believe me, if we had the straight dope on your catcher, we'da coughed it up. The only hard evidence we have, so far, is your bottle, and the existence of a matching Pitcher. We've got some good speculation going on. Leads to Cuba and the Phils, a possible Mexican suspicion. The French connection... nothing concrete so far.

 As Eric has mentioned, the possible countries of origin all had large glassmaking experience. We don't see many Phillipine examples in these parts, save the occasional San Miguel. Your picture of the Cuban Ballplayer bottles appears to be more modern than your catcher. Very similar in form, though the heads appear to be the stoppers.

 We've not talked about counterfeiting yet. This was, and is a practice in the aforementioned countries. It was practised *big time,* across the board back in the day. Your call to the Cyrus Noble VP with no corporate memory does not surprise me. 

 Here we have a highly decorative bottle with a Baseball theme, for crying out loud, and I've not seen one before. No one else is chiming in with, "Oh yeah, I've dug/bought/sold the Catcher, but you'd really like the Batter..." Doesn't mean that one of our less active members won't find this thread and say "Bingo" one of these days.

 With the advent of the Pure Food & Drug legislation starting in 1906, the government entered the regulation field and started prosecuting adulterers, waterers, counterfeiters, and the whole of the Patent Medicine industry. To name but a few.

 When I first started looking into the Noble decanters, I found a 14 inch model of another figural, though unrelated to your Catcher. Now, I can't retrace my steps to that other durned figural. I switched up the search several times, to the tune of not much of anything. This is not unusual for bottle research. It's a happy day in googleville, when there is good history available.

 Jim said it well and succinctly.



> ...because of the rich history of baseball and sports this has me on my seat. I think it's elevated because it's such a "cross collectible" that I would have expected to find info about a baseball collection online with a few in them and some info....Jim


 
 We do love a good mystery. I think the baseball guys, with the focus on history and statistics, not so much. Baseball was in one of it's golden eras when this bottle was made. Worldwide exposure and buzz was created. How come we don't know about this one?

 Pretty good question...


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## surfaceone (Feb 22, 2012)

Hey Carleton,

 Here's another precinct heard from.

 "first off ... expert doesn't apply to me ... I have some knowledge on the late Victorian French figurals ... had enough passion to produce a website on them ... very little knowledge on American figurals & nothing on sports related figurals. 

 Had a look at the Noble Catcher figural ... first impression ... the basic form & detail characteristics looks more European than American ... the base & bottom look French & certainly frosted French figurals are common ... sheared finish not that common except for candy containers & lay down perfumes...." From https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-304119/mpage-7/tm.htm


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks Ron and Surf, I believe you it could be French...exactly what the implies I'm not sure....Did whiskey companies get there bottles overseas?...was that par?....And that brings up the production procedure from order to delivery....what went on?...who were the designers of the bottles?.....are there renown names in the design field?...All the nuts and bolts of production I find facinating...

 As for the silver bullet answer....It's out there somewhere hopefully....some 1890 trade publication maybe....I can see it...a feature with a photo of the  Cyrus Noble display at the 1893 St Louis Exposistion...and there it'll be....my Noble Catcher....a special short run only sold at the fair!!....imported from France that is...

 While we wait patiently....does anyone else have any imaginary scenarios?


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## epackage (Feb 22, 2012)

Carlton I will have gone thru my bottle books by weeks end and I hope to have an answer for you....Either way good luck....Jim


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 22, 2012)

Thanks much Jim, That's great


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## LtlBtl (Feb 23, 2012)

I have a few questions.
 1. The story-  I am having a hard time w/ the whole thing. Buying at an antique mall from a dealer who bought it on way to Cooperstown   ... I'm sorry I just got distracted from my bs alarm going off, what was I saying?  
 I guess from trying to be scammed by so many people w/bs stories, this is seeming like one of those  " It was my great great great grandmothers who never played with it and ..." .  And the dealer made no claims to what it was or where it came from other than   "on way to Cooperstown", correct? Meaning, he could have gotten it from some speed freak at any road stop between CA and NY and he wouldn't have been lying.  You were the one to make the jump that it was from this sports collection he was selling but did not comment further on. Did the collection have similar period items? Does the dealer have a good rep and is he familiar w/a range of items? Meaning if I am looking at a collection of stuff that is predominantly from one era and there is a(presumed) much earlier and higher quality piece in it, I get alarmed. 
 2. Another jump to me is the connection with a generic word as noble and applying it to a company. And especially a word that is spelled the same in different languages, French and English. I am of the belief that if it was a production or presentation piece for Cyrus Noble it would say "Cyrus Noble". 
 3.Does it look like honest wear? Even if it were from the 1910s, there should be some base wear from being moved around. 100 years of display will show.
 4. Attributing date based on players look. If item was Euro in origin and of the period, the maker would have probably only had second hand knowledge of baseball and its uniforms,equipment. It would have been from a picture most likely. So, how old was picture? And, I always look for ethnic attributes- it is easy to tell(other than just quality) when comparing Euro and Asian figures of the period as facial differences are usually present, even if destination market is same. From the same period(1890s-1920s) Shafer Vater produced many sports themed, including baseball, figural(ceramic) items that were knocked off by Japan makers and they illustarte that point well.  
 5. Attributing age by technique. Glass making styles/technology were a little slower in changing over in Europe. I don't see why that bottle couldn't still be being made. Slap some paint on it, put a cork in it, add a cloth hat and it looks like a Spanish wine bottle from the 70s to me.

 I hope you have the "real" thing , whatever that may be.


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## LtlBtl (Feb 23, 2012)

I'd like to follow up.
 I don't think Carlton Hendricks' story or bottle  is bs. I just wonder a bout a dealer who has to throw Cooperstown into a sale of baseball stuff if there really isn't that HOF connection.
 The members and autction listing w/id of  c. 1910 ,French/Euro figural cologne would be my vote if it all mattered. If that bottle was presented to me in that way, I would feel comfortable to buy it as that.
 For me, it  just doesn't seem to go with some the killer stuff around it in pics. I'd be keeping it, just finding a different spot!


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 23, 2012)

Jim, How's those books coming? -Carlton


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## epackage (Feb 23, 2012)

Looking when I can Carlton, no luck just yet...


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## epackage (Feb 23, 2012)

After going thru the issue from 1977 which chronicles the Skiinner Auction in Boston of the Largest Figural Bottle Collection I did not see your bottle nor was it described . In the article they mention the top 8 sellers, in which your's didn't appear, and they have numerous pic's and many mentions of other figurals and I do not see anything about a Noble Catcher or Pitcher, 

 They did mention France, Italy, England, Germany and Mexico for their many figurals in the American market with French examples being dominate. They also make mention of how the French examples more often than not have "DEPOSE" embossed which means Patented in France. Of the many examples pictured the only Sports figure was Boxer Bob Fitzsimmons, which was frosted but totally unlike your example. In fact the majority of Figural of People were examples where the whole head came off and was typically painted or it was made from porcelain.

 I then went thru the Charles Gardner Sale issue from 1975 which shows many bottles, mentions many examples and has a list of "Figurals Sold" as well. There is no sign of your bottle in any way shape or form. Sorry but that's all I found so far but I do have some issues left to check and will do so in good time.

 At this point I am personally thinking it's foreign but not as old as others may think....JMHO


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 23, 2012)

Wow Jim, that is fantastic, you're on top of your game, very enlightening just from the standpoint Noble Catcher wasn't in the largest figural bottle collection, on top the fact no one's seen it. When I was in that store considering buying it I googled it on my phone and got basically nothing....and that was a flag to bite the bullet and get it....The fact no one has seen it, for me, is a great thing....with respect to the patina/dirt on the surface....which is hard to convey over this thread....I've been collecting for...well, out of modesty let's just say a long time...(25 years)....and I think I can tell a little by eyeballing something...and my estimation after looking it over yesterday with a magnifying glass, is that it could be from 1880....naturally I'm just not sure...but my best guess is it could be.

 By the way, with the magnifying glass, there was not one single marking....not even a number or anything. But what I did notice is the back brace appears to be holding baseball bats...if you look at the back shot you can see the ends of the handles...I didn't even notice that till yesterday. 

 Below a shot of the face which shows the grime in the crevasse....sure with I could upload more than one photo per post


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## epackage (Feb 23, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  CarltonHendricks
> 
> sure with I could upload more than one photo per post


 The search continues, and if you use a image hosting site like Photobucket you can post a million images by using the image button like this...


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 23, 2012)

Well I thought I tried the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 thing....let me try again...I took some shots in sunlight today, lets see if I can get airborn with this photo deal...




















 The bats I mentioned earlier...bat handle ends sticking up out a holder of sorts






 OK now we're cook'n with gas!


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## surfaceone (Feb 24, 2012)

Hey Carleton,

 I went back to review to see if there was any clues I might have missed. I only found a particularly clueless welcome from me.



> There'ya go Jordyn


 
 Sorry about that, musta been some senior moment on my part.

 From the above photo, I think I'm seeing dirt and perhaps small rust spots, which lead me to think this may be a dug bottle. This might speak to the lack of base wear that LtlBtl mentioned. That is, if it was consumed and discarded there would be little, if any base wear.

 From your magnifying glass study, could you detect any signs of previous paint? That, too, would have been largely, if not totally, lost in the ground, and/or subsequent clean up.

 Still looking...


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## CarltonHendricks (Feb 25, 2012)

surfaceone, I stepped up the examination to a loop to look closer into the crevasses...but I could not see any residue of paint. Yes It does appear to have a few darker areas that look like it might be rust but I think it's inside the bottle. Interesting I see a few fiber strands in the dirt in the crevasses....pretty much invisible to the naked eye until using a loop....but I figure the fibers could have been from being wrapped in some kind of cloth during a contemporary time frame...although the strands look as old as the dirt...If I were to extract one of those fibers and take them to a forensic lab I wonder what they could tell me about it....That is whether it was wool or cotton or what ever...but most important if they could tell how old it was!...or maybe if it was human hair...Phew!...maybe they could read the DNA and tell the nationality of the person it was from and when they lived!?!?!...Probably $500.00 to $1000.00 of lab work though.

 Also I'll mention...As I've always deducted the dirt residue in the crevasses is mainly at the highest points, the back of the neck... and the flattest points, the front of base around the shoes... which are the areas dust particles would most easily settle. Meaning the dirt in the crevasses would not be from not being cleaning thoroughly enough after being dug...but rather from decades of exposure to falling dust particles...

 Another interesting aspect I noticed initially during the magnifying glass examination is the style of the belt buckle and the belt loop next to it at dead center the waist...The way all that is modeled looks very 19th century period correct and typical of baseball uniforms then...If I'm correct on that, the bottle's designer gave close atention to that detail....Which woud mean either the designer was quite familiar with baseball uniforms of the 1880 period or used a very clear photo as a model.

 My good friend John Gennantonio is co author of the book "Antique Sports Uniforms & Equipment 1840-1940 - Baseball Football Basketball" I'd consider John a national authority on 19th baseball uniforms and equipment....and as I recall is particularly familiar with belts, belt buckles and shoes....I will be asking him to review this post and the photo below.


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 7, 2012)

I have three new aspects to examine on Noble Catcher. The first involves the volume of liquid the bottle is designed to hold. 

 1, First of all, in regards to all figural bottles not just mine...It's very interesting someone could design a figural bottle to hold a designated volume of liquid and top out a little below the cap. For instance...when a typical four sided bottle is designed...if the bottler ordered a bottle to hold a specific measurable amount of liquid...it would just be a matter of the bottle maker making the bottle a little taller of shorter to meet the order. In the case of a figural bottle...it seems to me the volume would be random subject to the artistic modeling of the bottle. I would speculate an experienced bottle maker would only be able to get close to a target volume...and the bottler would price the product/bottle of whiskey cologne, or what ever....on the volume held. In the case of figural bottles, it seems to me it would be a practice of form over function.

 Now to my bottle...I'm considering filling it with water to get a measure reading....Questions: would knowing the volume supply any clue to what it was filled with?... and I assume filling it will not contaminate any evidence of it's history...correct?

 2. As you can see the opening lip is oval not round....and I assume that was unintentional , perhaps shoddy workmanship by the bottle maker...But I don't know bottles...Question: Do you see many bottles like that, i.e. with a skewed opening...is this common? I've never seen a bottle opening like that...I'm sure it would affect the removal of a cork...you would not be able to work the cork out by twisting it...it would have to be pulled straight out....






 Another aspect is that the surface of glass where the lip is chipped, is frosted....which indicates it was chipped by the maker...or at least prior the frosting process....Between that and the lopsided opening....those aspects of it's production would seem to indicate a lack of quality assurance by the maker....Question: Would this be typical of bottles produced in a particular period or place?...or is this lack of quality an anomaly in the bottle world collectively?






 3. I sent my friend Tom Cardaropoli a link to my Noble Catcher post and got back the interesting reply below. Tom packs a remarkable generalist knowledge of Americana antiques from his thirty years in the business. He's a legendary eBay seller for the 20-50 Americana items he lists weekly with no reserve starting at $9.99
 ...Tom's eBay handle is walnutts

_Never saw or heard of the Bottle before but my best guess is that it was made by the Cyrus Noble Whiskey Co. â€“ today that make â€œcollectorâ€ bottles like Jim Beam but around the turn of the 20th century I know that they bottled their whiskey in at least one figural Bottle in the shape of a six-gun (I am not sure but I think that revolver shaped bottle was frosted like yours but I am not sure if my memory of this is correct â€“ you should be able to find an example of the gun shaped bottle and compare the surface).

 Beautiful bottle in any case!!

 Tom_

 Is anyone familiar with this revolver botttle?


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## epackage (Mar 7, 2012)

The gun can be seen at the top right in this old advertising piece...


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## epackage (Mar 7, 2012)

...


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 8, 2012)

Jim/epackage,
 Thanks for posting that sign....looks like Tom was right.....there's the revolver bottle....wow look at those bullet canisters...never seen one of those I can recall...now the question is what year is the sign from? 

 I've seen revolver bottles at the 49er bottle show as I gravitate toward figural things....I remember discussing a revolver bottle with a dealer but can't recall what it held...seems I've seen amber and clear ones...

 http://www.sportsantiques.com/auburnbottle12_5_08.htm
 I got desperate to find a photo of one and found 77 photos of the 2007 49er show I never posted on my site...way more than the 08' show I had up....so I went ahead and posted the 07' ones, see link above....I posted nice big ones this time, which you can enlarge by clicking...but anyway no revolver bottle in any the photos...I'd have thought for sure this community would post some photos of revolver bottles.... 

 Thought I'd have gotten answers to the frosted chip and volume questions...such are the only aspects I can think to pursue...I was hoping the frosted chip would lead to a particular country or product match...and the volume would point to a particular product....I've looked for a cologne company named Noble but didn't turn up anything...What a mystery....My best guess at this point is Cyrus Noble did a short run for an exhibit at a fair or international exhibition...like the 1876 Centennial in Philiadelphia maybe...or a California Sate Fair of some kind...

 I'm sensing this thread has run it's course of enthusiasm...shame since I anticipated a larger well of knowledge....and no other forum to turn to...


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 8, 2012)

I meant to post what I learned...or didn't learn....from my bud John Gennantonio on the belt aspect...didn't get much...he's like a lot of us these days....just overloaded with responsibilities...below his reply:

 ______________________________________________________________________________________

_More responsibilities than I can handle at this time. Way past overload!
 See page 24 of my book. Those are the examples of TOC belts that I have.
 Please understand.
 John

 On Feb 25, 2012, at 4:31 PM, Carlton Hendricks wrote:
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-494423/mpage-3/tm.htm
 John, Can you please review the 4th post down in the link above for your opinion of the belt buckle in the photo? If you have a photo of anything similar please send it so I can post it, thanks
 -Carlton
 www.SportsAntiques.com_

 _________________________________________________________________________________

 Below photos of page 24....but I needed his actual input yay or nay....I'll ring his bell again


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## surfaceone (Mar 8, 2012)

Cyrus Noble Bourbon Miniature From.






 "Finally I have a prototype sign that is located on the side of an old hotel/barroom/bordello in Lemoore, California. The building was built in 1902. The sign reads:

 Cyrus Noble of the Three Sworn Enemies. Plus the sign was painted over but the overcoat has worn off enough to read the original sign.

 Anybody want to venture a guess as to what this sign means?" From.




From.






 "Cyrus Noble Etched Glass Fluted Whiskey Bottle. No chips or cracks. 11 1/2 inches tall." From.






 "BLUE RIDGE
 California Sherry

 Volume: 2 Oz
 alc/vol: 18%
 Bottle by Cyrus Noble Company - San Francisco" From (a link to check.)






 "1907 Cyrus Noble Whiskey SIGN" Coming to Auction.






 "Circa 1910 Cyrus Noble Whiskey Mural in Portland's Old Town - Since Covered Over

 Whiskey mural on the side of the Blanchet House in Portland's Old Town. Mural since covered up by billboards." From.

 "The Cyrus Noble brand was originally owned by Crown Distilleries who registered it in 1878 and 1881, but Freiberg-Workum took it to Cincinnati in 1896 and registered it again in 1906.

 The company used the brand names:
 "Crown Cocktails", "Cyrus Noble", "Cyrus Noble", "Cyrus Noble", "Elkhorn", "Kentucky Lily Bourbon", "Lexington Club Old Bourbon", "Manhattan Club", and "Old Government Whiskey."

 Business name timeline:
 Crown Distilleries Co.

 Address timeline:
 100-102 Front (1893-1901), NE cor Mission & Beale (1902-1906), 19-29 Minna (1907-1910), NE cor Mission & Beale (1911-1919)" From.






 "W. A. Lacey, a sister brand to Cyrus Noble, was made in Kentucky and distributed in the West by Lilienthal & Co from 1871-1896 when the name was changed to Crown Distilleries . After the marriage of Samuel Lilienthal to Alice Haas, the liquor operation was combined with the grocery operations of Haas Brothers.

 The history of this company is detailed by The Wilsons, beginning on p. 95. 

 The business was started by Ernest Reuben Lilienthal, who was born in New York and trained as a lawyer. He learned the whiskey trade as an employee of Freiberg & Workum and became a salesman for them in New York.
 In 1872 he moved to San Francisco and set up a wholesale operation at 223 California Street under the name Lilienthal & Co. and selling Freiberg & Workum products. The company grew rapidly to become the largest wholesaler in the west. In 1896, the liquor business was spun off from the company's other enterprises and incorporated as the Crown Distilleries Company, which operated to Prohibition.

 The company used the brand names:
 "Cyrus Noble", and "Cyrus Noble."

 Business name timeline:
 Lilienthal & Co.

 Address timeline:
 223 California St (1872-1881), 100-102 Front (1882-1901), NE cor Mission & Beale (1902)" From.

 "The Walnut Hill brand was owned by C. H. Graves, Co., Boston, MA. The distributer in the North West and owner of the monogram was W.J. Van Schuyver who also distributed Cyrus Noble.

 Van Schuyver became sole owner of the company (previously Millard & Van Schuyver) in 1877 and continued until Prohibition.

 Wm J Van Schuyver, President & Wm O Van Schuyver, Secretary (1901, 1903). George A Craw is listed along with the other two in 1904 and 1905, as Vice-President. By 1906, the company is back to Wm J Van Schuyver, President & Treasurer, with Wm O Van Schuyver, Secretary

 The company used the brand name: "Cyrus Noble."

 Business name timeline:
 Wm J Van Schuyver Co. (Inc: 1901-1915)

 Address timeline:
 63 Front (1880-1887), 105-107 2 nd (1889-1911), 328 Glisan (1912-1915)" From.






 Hey Carleton,

 Still haven't found any further leads to your "Catcher," but there's other mysteries afoot. What about the whole "of the three sworn enemies" conundrum?

 I think the answer lies somewhere in the Crown Distilleries, Freiberg-Workum mists, but don't know for sure.

 Great mystery, sir...


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 9, 2012)

Surf, Thanks so much for so much...I agree it sounds like Three Sworn Enemies had something to do with a shared interest of distriuting Cyrus Noble....a fabricated mystique...very interesting....you posted a lot to take in...it's all good background that could prove helpful.

 I much appreciate any and all input, observation, speculation, photos, or anything anyone cares to share. And it doesn't have to be Cyrus Noble related...if you have input regarding another product my bottle may have held....by all means post away..I will take any clues!


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 12, 2012)

I got some interesting news today on  Noble Catcher....I went in the antiques mall where I got it a month ago and the dealer of the booth, named Kim, was there....As previously mentioned I often see him at the monthly Sacramento Antiques fair. Moreover I've seen him around antiques shows for about 20 years. He used to set up regularly at the now defunct P.M.A. show at the San Mateo Fairgrounds in Sam Mateo Calif. I cut my teeth in antiques at the P.M.A. show... Kim recently told me he's retired now after after selling his sporting goods business....I didn't pry into his personal business too much but as I recall...I believe he said he sold to the San Francisco Giants...and I assume that was just one of many teams he sold to and I gathered it wasn't a retail business..Kim told me he used to drive out from California to the Brimfield Antiques Fair in Brimfield MA. many times....but he can't handle all the walking now so quit going regularly....see my 16 text page 16,521 word coverage of the May 2011 Brimfield Fair here...plus 1000 photos here...

 ...So anyways I told him I had bought it and asked where he'd gotten it....take a guess....he got it at the last 49er bottle show in early December....the one I couldn't make cause I had to work...He said he spotted it right as the seller at the show put it out...He said as much even if I'd been there he'd have gotten it as he was right there when it came out....So the next question I asked was where was the dealer from....didn't know...he figured probably from California or Nevada...So....there goes my notion it came out of the east coast from the afore mentioned Cooperstown haul he made...

 Also it turns out....he had another one once and sold it years ago...Kim felt sure it was a Cyrus Noble back bar bottle. He told me back bar bottles were not sold to the public, and as much that Cyrus Noble was the first one to use figural bottles and they were designed to stand out visually and in turn increase sales in bars...

 And then....there was a little intrigue....Kim said he had told a baseball collector about the bottle who he was sure would buy it....The collector came to the mall the day after I bought it and called Kim to find out where it was....Kim expressed as much his trepidation at having to tell the collector it was already sold...Kim put it out on a Saturday and I bought next day Sunday...


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 15, 2012)

I've been very fortunate to have the assistance of Shawn England who I know from the Net54baseball.com forum...Yesterday Shawn emailed me the items below...nothing concrete except we now have documentation a Cyrus Noble distributor named Taylor and Hatch used bottles in 1885 special enough to reference as "beautiful", "exceedingly attractive" and "extensive"...in their advertising...and that they were on display in their "Clubroom"..as seen below in a print ad from the Arizona Silver Belt newspaper on Saturday March 21, 1885....and that Cyrus Noble was given top billing in their ad including a graphic of the CN Lynchburg distillery. No mention of a baseball bottle but that's fine since I'm still holding onto my latest speculation my bottle was a special Cyrus Noble back bar bottle not available to the public and produced in a relatively limited capacity.







 Also Shawn sent a description of the Cyrus Noble exhibit at the 1894 California Mid Winter published in the Pacific Wine and Spirit Review
_
 California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894 
 From Wikipedia
 The California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894, commonly referred to as the "Midwinter Exposition" or the "Midwinter Fair", was a World's Fair that operated from January 27 to July 5 in San Francisco's Golden Gate Park. In 1892, U.S. President Benjamin Harrison appointed M. H. de Young as a national commissioner to the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition which was held in Chicago. The San Francisco fair was the brainchild of Michael H. de Young, then editor and sole proprietor of the San Francisco Chronicle. The most enduring legacies are the M.H. de Young Memorial Museum (which has since been rebuilt in a much different design) and the Park's famed Japanese Tea Garden._


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## epackage (Mar 15, 2012)

I like your bottle but like you said nothing concrete yet, I hope you can find something solid...Jim


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 16, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: epackage
> 
> I like your bottle but like you said nothing concrete yet, I hope you can find something solid...Jim


 





 Thanks Jim, What I'd like to find is lots of old photos of saloons in the old west from about 1880 to 1920 to see if I could find my bottle on a back bar...I found some interesting looking books on amazon but too pricey

_1. Saloons of the Old West by Richard Erdoes (Hardcover - Feb 11, 1997) 5 new from $50.00 27 used from $11.95 (4)Sell this back for an Amazon.com Gift Card
 Books: See all 27 items _
_2. Hoist a Cold One!: Historic Bars of the Southwest by Melody Groves (Paperback - Jul 15, 2011) Buy new: $24.95 $18.96 20 new from $16.58 6 used from $15.35 _
_3. The Saloon on the Rocky Mountain Mining Frontier by Elliott West (Paperback - Sep 28, 1996) 
 4 new from $22.00 15 used from $4.60 _
_4. Vintage Old Town Saloon Metal Bar Sign 
 Buy new: $18.95 _
_5. Legendary Watering Holes: The Saloons that Made Texas Famous (Clayton Wheat Williams Texas Life Series) by Richard F. Selcer, David Bowser, Nancy Hamilton and Chuck Parsons (Hardcover - Aug 31, 2004) _

http://www.sportsantiques.com/viennabbbronze.htm
 I once spotted a very rare c1880 Vienna bronze of a baseball batter and catcher in a photo in a book on Victorian homes in New York City, link above


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 29, 2012)

Well as a last ditch effort I sent my Noble Catcher baseball bottle to Audio Archaeology International in Brussels to see if they could read any conversations imbedded in the bottles surface. AAI is the worldâ€™s leading forensic audio laboratory that has pioneered the field of reconstruction of embedded audio in inanimate objects. Moreover AAI has the worldâ€™s largest archeological audio library and specializes in identifying and matching voices of historical personsâ€¦.





*Forensic audio evalauation of Noble Catcher bottle surface*

 They explained to me the surface molecules of the bottle hold literally thousands of audio renderings that can be reconstructed, as long as the surface stays intact, i.e. unbroken, and that it never diminishesâ€¦so that the audio they retrieve is as fresh today as it was the day the sound was initiated. Because of the capability of todayâ€™s super computers AAI is able to sort and cross reference billions of audio â€œstrikesâ€ as they call them. Moreover theanalyses are quite intensive and involve a multiple refining process to eliminate non-descript sounds and the reassembling of verbiage until a final set of key conversations can be determined.





*Wyatt Earp*

 In the case of my bottle what theyâ€™ve found so far is they are able to identify the location of several key conversations as having taken place in the western hemisphere. The location is somewhat limited and is determined by evaluating a gravitational pull of key syllables. However, what is very exciting is thru the vast AAI library their computers are able to access in zillionths of a second; they were able to positively identify the voice of the famed gunslinger and lawman Wyatt Earp. Until the complete evaluation is finalized by AAI I cannot discuss the full details of the conversation more than to report it is definitely the voice of Wyatt Earp and based on background noise, appears to have taken place in a saloon. They expect it will take another month before the final report is complete. I will try to remember to post it here as soon as Iâ€™ve received itâ€¦.Oh and by the wayâ€¦.one more thing I should mentionâ€¦.youâ€™ve been hadâ€¦this is a hoax!!

 So anywaysâ€¦all kidding asideâ€¦.I havenâ€™t found any new positive evidence that I.D.â€™s my bottle, although Iâ€™ll mention I showed it to Corey Lieby who is one of the top sports memorabilia dealers in the world and heâ€™s never seen it. 

 I now have the bottle featured near the top of my home page www.SportsAntiques.com . Iâ€™ve referenced Antique-Bottles.net as the leading bottle community and placed a prominent link to this thread.


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## epackage (Mar 29, 2012)

It's too bad the people at Noble don't have any sort of searchable archives, but I look forward to the day the Pitcher & Catcher can finally tell us their stories...


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## surfaceone (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks for the story, Carlton,

 Was looking through your site, at your kind invitation, and wanted to say how much I liked that Grant's Pass Barney Oldfield poster, and the great groove skate reunion groove:









 I read through the thread the other day to see if I could see something previously missed, but alas, I'm still stumped. Darn those "three sworn enemies."

 Thanks for the nice plug for the the gang at A-BN. Thought you might get a kick outta this Sports Soda Thread from a while back.




From.


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## epackage (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a few Sports related collectibles lying around including some nice photos of the Harlem Magicains at Guantanamo Bay back in 1963, They were clasified and taken by the Navy and I was lucky enough to come across them at a garage sale of a retired officer who was there...

 There are also 2 photo's with Ray Robinson the boxer who played with the Magicians when he had free time, and also a few original Programs...


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## epackage (Mar 29, 2012)

...


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## epackage (Mar 29, 2012)

...


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## epackage (Mar 29, 2012)

...


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 30, 2012)

Jim, Thanks for the Globetrotter photos....classified Globetrotter memorabilia.....I'm afraid you and that elderly lady from the garage sale will have to come in for questioning at once!

 Surf, Glad you enjoyed those Groove Skates and Barney Oldfield...Barney was quite a find out of the blue...Yeah if you're in the Northwest that Portland show is great...Thanks also for the sports bottle link...my favorite is the Huskers one....and the speed ball is pretty nice too....I have the Players one someplace...the first one posted.

 I've been finding stuff everywhere lately....Just got two incredible rowing pieces...a huge  killer statue and a 19th-early 20th century 43" wooden folk art two man scull model...i almost don't want to find anything for a while till I catch my breath


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## GLOPTOP (Mar 31, 2012)

Hey CarltonHendricks, you may find out if this bottle is a Cyrus Noble by contacting the premier collector of Cyrus Noble bottles and advertising items ( only old stuff, nothing new ). Since you seem to be from the northern Calif. area, you may know him, as he used to live there. However, he now lives in Reno, Nevada. I am talking about Russell Umbracco, who has collected Cyrus Noble for over 40 years. You can email him at "russellu1@juno.com" or call him at 510-693-0550. Maybe he can help!

 Dennis "GLOPTOP" Rogers


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## CarltonHendricks (Mar 31, 2012)

*RE: "Noble Catcher" Is this a Cyrus Noble Whiskey Bottle?*

DONE!...see email copy below. Thanks very much Dennis..._


Hello Russell,
Carlton Hendricks here...A member of Antique-Bottles.net by the name of Dennis Rogers referred me to you to I.D. a bottle I have of a baseball catcher...called â€œNoble Catcherâ€...Please see it in the link above. thanks
Kindly
-Carlton
_



> ORIGINAL: GLOPTOP
> 
> Hey CarltonHendricks, you may find out if this bottle is a Cyrus Noble by contacting the premier collector of Cyrus Noble bottles and advertising items ( only old stuff, nothing new ). Since you seem to be from the northern Calif. area, you may know him, as he used to live there. However, he now lives in Reno, Nevada. I am talking about Russell Umbracco, who has collected Cyrus Noble for over 40 years. You can email him at "russellu1@juno.com" or call him at 510-693-0550. Maybe he can help!
> 
> Dennis "GLOPTOP" Rogers


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## epackage (Mar 31, 2012)

I now need to subscribe to this post again in hopes of finding out what the expert has to say..


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## CarltonHendricks (Apr 2, 2012)

This just in....

 I had not gotten a reply from Russell Umbracco so this afternoon I called him to see if he got my email....turns out he replied yesterday very early at 12:12AM and it was stuck in my junk email filter!!.....see his reply posted below. He doesn't think my bottle is a Cyrus Noble bottle...he even has one himself....Moreover, during our phone call Russell provided me more information than in his email...

 I'm still on overload from our conversation as I write this. One of the biggest things I recall was he said my bottle has been referenced in at least one if not more of the antique bottle magazines and the question of whether or not it's Cyrus Noble has come up before...He also told me he discussed my bottle with Ernest R. Lilienthal, CEO of Haas Bros and Lilienthal didn't believe the Noble baseball bottles were issued by Cyrus Noble...Also as we spoke Russell provided he's seen figural wine bottles consistent with the style of my bottle and speculated it could be of French or another non-American nationality..

_Hi Carton:  Your research was interesting, and I can't cover all your
 questions in a few words.  As Dennis said, I have been collecting and
 researching anything Cyrus Noble and related for over 40 years.  My best
 insight and information came from much contact with the family and
 particularly; Ernest R. Lilienthal, CEO of Haas Bros., and Grandson of
 the founder.  When we have more time, I will share many details with you.
  I know you want to know more about the Noble Catcher and Noble Pitcher
 bottles, but there were no company references nor recollections that
 these were procured by the company or used for Cyrus Noble whiskey.  I do
 have one in my own collection as it goes well with a picture of the Cyrus
 Noble sponsored baseball team of around 1910 (Cyrus Noble is written on
 the uniform in large letters).  The bottles are typical of French
 figurals, circa.1910.  Yes, many bottles were manufactured in Europe for
 filling with liquors and other products produced here.
 Best Wishes; Hope to see you at the FOHBC show in Reno July 27-29, 2012.
 ... Russell Umbraco_

 Russell said it was about 30 years ago when he spoke with Ernest Lilienthal and that he thinks Lilienthal was about 60 years old then....30 years ago would have been 1982...So that would mean Lilienthal was born around 1922....Growing up around the Cyrus Noble marketing since 1922 would make him an excellent source of knowledge on the company's history...but it's not conclusive. If my bottle was issued in 1880 that would have been about 40 years before he was born...

 Though my position has weakened I'm still not completely sold that my bottle isn't a Cyrus Noble...but if it were I speculate it would have to have been a foreign designer who would have come up with the phrase "NOBLE CATCHER"....That just doesn't sound at all the way an American would describe a baseball player....As a matter fact....to me it doesn't even seem like a foreign view of a baseball player....unless they looked up to baseball players as some sort of stoic figures of virtue....

 I speculate the bottles designer may have felt it was neccessary to identify the player as a "catcher" because the modeling of figural glass bottles, by their nature, can be indefinite to the casual viewer. To remedy that the designer may have employed the word "CATCHER" in larger letters leaving only enough room for NOBLE to identify the brand.


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## surfaceone (Apr 3, 2012)

> Though my position has weakened I'm still not completely sold that my bottle isn't a Cyrus Noble...but if it were I speculate it would have to have been a foreign designer who would have come up with the phrase "NOBLE CATCHER"....That just doesn't sound at all the way an American would describe a baseball player....As a matter fact....to me it doesn't even seem like a foreign view of a baseball player....unless they looked up to baseball players as some sort of stoic figures of virtue....


 
 Howdy Carlton,

 It's still way better than an Ignoble Catcher. Who would fill that bill? Pop Snyder, maybe. He even bears a bit of resemblance to your bottle, especially around the moustache.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Obviously not Holden Caulfield, either. Rafael Noble is not old enough 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Though nobly elected to the Cuban Baseball Hall of Fame in 1985. Though, "After baseball, Noble owned a liquor store in Brooklyn." From.


"Ode to Buster Posey

 The runner flies down the third base line
 With such reckless force he should be fined.
 But willing is he to take a thoughtless chance
 And alas our noble catcher cannot shift his stance..." From.​ 
 "Are you tired of seeing Alex Avila grimace in manly pain as his mask gets knocked off, or he gets a bat to the helmet, or yet another foul ball goes screaming off his instep? Does it sadden you to see this noble catcher, a true national treasure, threatened by carelessness, incompetenceâ€“ even sometimes malice?.." From.

 "The Yankees went on to win the game 7-4, and the series 4-0. It is now six decades later, and I honestly don't know if Ernie would later father children, but I do know that in the days that followed, the Cincinnati Inquirer accused this noble catcher of "snoozing at a critical moment." Frankly, I think this is a tad harsh for a man who nearly sacrificed his genetic legacy two times in two seconds, just so his team could win a stupid baseball game." From.

 "as a pitcher, I can really appreciate a good and noble catcher" 

 I think there is a special kind of nobility in Catchers, and, though I don't have period sports pages at hand, I bet this was a term used often to describe both Pitchers and Catchers, especially of the "home" team.

 Forget Lilienthal, I think you have to look backwards to the Crown Distilleries days...


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## epackage (Dec 15, 2017)

After almost 6 years the preeminent figural bottle expert Michael E. Anderson found an example of the figural pitcher with original cap/stopper, he tells me these were most likely made by the West Virginia Bottle Works, so much for the French attribution. Photo courtesy of the "Anderson Library", I'm hoping Carlton sees this post...

Mike says "I want to clarify that the "Partial" 1884 Catalog that I am in possession of does not show these bottles. I am making the conclusion that these bottles were sold from the same company at a slightly later time because I have every bottle in the catalog and the glass composition and style of manufacture is spot on. In the 4000 plus bottles I own from all over the world, only this company manufactured bottles in the same consistently textured frosted glass."


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## nhpharm (Dec 15, 2017)

Nice to see you pop up here and thanks for the update!  It's good to close the loop on these topics even if the original poster doesn't see them as they are all searchable and I am sure many people use this forum for research.


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## epackage (Dec 20, 2017)

nhpharm said:


> Nice to see you pop up here and thanks for the update!  It's good to close the loop on these topics even if the original poster doesn't see them as they are all searchable and I am sure many people use this forum for research.


Thanks, I emailed Carlton with the info, wanted to make sure he had it...


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