# Pint Lightning jar question



## jaroadshow (Nov 9, 2014)

I was wondering if someone could tell me what the height of the ground top Pint Lightning jar should be.( To the top of the jar without the lid ) Thanks jaroadshow


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## icollectfruitjars (Nov 9, 2014)

Ground lips pints are generally 6".  Smooth lipped jars are shorter, usually around 5.25"


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## jaroadshow (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank You for the reply. The reason I am asking is I just acquired a beautiful ground top lightning" style jar - Unembossed on the sides and base, beautiful bubbles in the glass and with the original amber lid on it.Strange thing is , it is 4" tall ( to the top of the jar with no lid ). I checked the liquid content, it seems to hold 8 ounces of water ( Half pint ? )Also , the amber lid is ground on the bottom "sealing" face where it would come in contact with the jar / rubber gasket. Never seen this before.I looked through my Redbook #11 and cannot find a listing for a ground top half pint amber lightning style jar ? ? I'll post a picture if you want. jaroadshow


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## coreya (Nov 9, 2014)

a picture or pictures would help


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## jaroadshow (Nov 9, 2014)

Hi : I am attaching a few pictures.  The jar is mint , full of tiny bubbles and a beaut ! jaroadshow


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## coreya (Nov 9, 2014)

Thats a strange one for sure, A product jar, looks like 1/2 pint, early but without some markings it will be almost impossible to say who made it. Are you sure there is nothing on the lid or base? the ground part on the lid should not be there, may be something that happened after production? The ground top on the jar looks odd to. Not sure what to make of it.


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 9, 2014)

It looks more like damage then factory ground, both the jar and the lid. Strange bail also. IDK what it is. Maybe it came out high on one side only and needed to be ground off for the lid to fit? [8|]


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## jarsnstuff (Nov 9, 2014)

Could you maybe post a photo of the top side of that lid?


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## jaroadshow (Nov 9, 2014)

Hi jarsnstuff :  Here is a pic. of the top of the lid. jaroadshow


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## jargeezr (Nov 10, 2014)

A reproduction jar.


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## coreya (Nov 10, 2014)

jatgeezr nailed it I think, Did not think to check the repos but right there in the red book its listed 1/2 pint unembossed lightning style with glass lid & bail amber in color. Also seeing the picture of the lids top side the glass looks wrong. I am confused by the bail as it looks rusty but that would be an easy switch for someone who wants to deceive.


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## jaroadshow (Nov 10, 2014)

Well jargeezr and coreya: You both couldn't be more wrong. You both obviously are extremely limited on your knowledge about old jars. The reproduction half pints in Redbook #11 are all smooth top not ground top as this one is and are embossed on the base.  To quell your ignorance's, This jar came from a pick I did at the house / farm of an elderly lady who was a hoarder her entire life, but passed away recently and her son and daughter in law were selling off everything in the house to clear it out. And let me tell you she had a lot of old bottles and jars ( and everything else old ). Check the other posting under jars ( This section ) of the McCormick I.H.G. jar I posted.  It would be extremely rare ( and old ! ) with most of the original label on it.  I also bought quite a few other bottles and jars that are rare and a couple that are one of a kind bottles.  This amber half pint jar is probably one of a kind. The only one I have seen in 45 years of digging and collecting. And I cannot find it in my Redbook #11 or anywhere else.  Please enlighten me if you know of another *old* half pint in amber.This jar is all original and old. This is the original band and lid it came with. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. jaroadshow


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## jaroadshow (Nov 10, 2014)

Here is a picture of the base of my amber half pint jar. jaroadshow


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## coreya (Nov 10, 2014)

Well jar road show I'm glad you are a font of knowledge good luck to you!


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## jaroadshow (Nov 10, 2014)

I have to say, I appreciate any input on an item myself or anyone else posts on a jar or bottle. I know I sound frustrated to say the least, I guess I just expect an educated, mature response when "someone" posts an "Authentic Antique" bottle or jar that is undeniably old and came from an old dump or has been sitting in an old farm house for the last 120 years. Thank You jaroadshow


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 11, 2014)

That sounds logical. You can't find something newer than 120 years old in 120 year old house. Dam, when I die my family will be very disappointed. This place was built in the 1970's so nothing they find can be any older, right? [8|].


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## jargeezr (Nov 11, 2014)

Please pardon my ignorance and lack of knowledge about old jars. I only have a couple of hundred Lightnings to reference, but this half pint might be a one of a kind experimental, test jar. Maybe not. The unmarked HP Lightning listed in the Redbook reproductions does not have base markings or lid markings. All regular mouth Lightning lids are marked with dates. In my uneducated, ignorant opinion the jar shown started as a smooth mouth with attempts to grind it. There are no legitimate Lightnings without at least 3 twists to the original neck tie. This one has a simple hook (like the reproduction one). I have 160 year old jars in my collection, but I also have 30 year old reproductions too. Please be open minded in your evaluation of our contributors who are here to learn and teach and most of all.....enjoy your jar.


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## nhpharm (Nov 11, 2014)

Wow.  I may as well chime in. I am thinking repro as well.  The base is ground, the lip is smooth with a few areas ground, and the bottom of the lid is ground.  I've seen this on several reproductions from the 1970's...some company that made reproductions of various bottles/jars had a propensity for grinding areas of the bottles they made. Looks just like the repro listed in the Redbook.  Just because it is a repro doesn't mean it common or that it doesn't have any value.  As was noted by jargeezr, we all need to keep an open mind...I am learning more every day!  It isn't productive to insult the knowledge of other forum members...a simple "I disagree and here is why" would suffice.  Reactions like the one above are why people are sometime reluctant to respond to inquiries on this forum!


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## jaroadshow (Nov 11, 2014)

Wow... I am amazed that jar "experts" can't recognize a 120 year old jar.Authentic wear ( not ground ) on the base , ground top, 120 year old glass, original metal lightning closure, etc.....Glass full of bubbles, seed bubbles , etc. This jar came out of an old southern Ontario farm house fruit cellar, not an antique shop where you find the Chinese / India repro's. Thanks anyway............ jaroadshow


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## Bert DeWitt (Nov 11, 2014)

Wow... That was a little uncalled for.


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## MNJars (Nov 11, 2014)

Alright, I was going to avoid this thread but I can't help it.  I won't say that this jar IS or IS NOT a repro.  All I'll say is that this jar looks wrong to me for the following reasons: 1. This jar matches the description of a known repro with the exception of the ground lip.  There are pictures out there of these jars with other modifications.  For example, there is one on the NAG completed auctions where someone turned an unmarked Lightning repro into a fake amber "Globe" half pint.  The general shape of this jar appears to match the general shape of that jar minus the word Globe and the bail.  Auction #2875 if you are curious.2. The ground lip looks wrong.  Ground lips typically elevate vertically and are ground flat across the top forming a rectangle in profile, generally speaking.  This jar, at least from the picture provided, looks like the lip was originally rounded like a smooth lip, and was subsequently ground, or partially ground in this case having the appearance of rounded with a flat ground spot on top.3. The bail - as stated by jargeezr - should have 3 twists if it were a Lightning jar instead of a double hook.  This  observation by itself does not mean that it is a repro!  It only means that it doesn't quite fit with what we would typically see of Lightning jars.4.  The ground lid.  Why is the lid partially ground on the bottom?  Lightning lids were never ground.  This screams that someone modified the lid at some point.  Would they also modify the jar?  Maybe, who knows.5.  The picture is hard to tell for sure, but it looks ground on the base.  That's not normal and leads me back to #4. Now, please feel free to tell me how incompetent I am at my hobby.


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 11, 2014)

Just this line may be a tip.





> This jar came from a pick I did at the house / farm of an elderly lady who was a hoarder her entire life


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## jarsnstuff (Nov 11, 2014)

The reason I asked to see a photo of the top of the lid was because something just didn't feel right about this jar - pretty much all the reasons mentioned above by MNJars.  My gut feeling is that someone went to great lengths to make the jar appear to be old and original. How long did the folks in this 120 year old house collect bottles and jars? Into the 1970s or 1980s? The "Dream Color" Mason's Patent jars were made in 1971 - and I think the repro Lightning half pints date almost that far back as well.  Who's to say those folks didn't get snookered?  However, Jaroadshow, if you can't respect the humble opinions of the people on this forum - maybe you should seek the opinions of some "real experts".  May I suggest Greg Spurgeon, Jerry McCann, June Lowry, Doug Leybourne, or someone else of your own choosing. I'd sure be curious to know what they say.  -Tammy


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## deenodean (Nov 14, 2014)

My humble opinion is that all the evidence favors a reproduction jar!


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## jaroadshow (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi: I am starting to wonder myself and have doubts on it being a period jar.I am attaching a couple more pictures , close - up of the lip profile and the base showing where the seam ends at the base.     Let me know if it is synonymous with a reproduction. Thanks jaroadshow


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## jarsnstuff (Nov 15, 2014)

I'm attaching some photos of an aqua half pint in my collection for comparison.  The differences are all pretty subtle, but put them all together and yes, I think there's little doubt that you've got a repro.  I'm sorry.


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## jaroadshow (Nov 16, 2014)

Thank You very much. I believe this clears it up.   I guess there is little doubt. The jar didn't cost really anything at all as I purchased a bunch of old bottles and jars, old jar bands and lids as a lot, for a very good price. Actually going back this afternoon to pick out a bunch more.  Thanks again jarsnstuff ! jaroadshow


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## MNJars (Nov 16, 2014)

I am curious if "reproduction" is the correct term here.  It's really just a jar, right?  It isn't reproducing or faking a known jar.


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## jarsnstuff (Nov 16, 2014)

Technically, you may be correct - there was never an actual production jar made exactly like this.  However, it does bear a strong resemblance to the half pint Trademark Lightning jars that WERE produced so I think "reproduction" is still applicable.  I imagine we could have another whole discussion on what does or does not constitute a repro []-Tammy


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## rallcollector (Nov 18, 2014)

I think the fact someone installed an older, rusty bail/tie wire [hoping to deceive?] kicks it into the repro wasteland.


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