# Reproduction labels/fakes?



## Canadacan (Apr 13, 2018)

Back in 2016 I had purchased a Pepsi bottle with a perfect intact label, 12oz size Canadian (post 1941 era) printed in French and on the correct 12oz swirl bottle. The price was really decent and I had no 12oz example in my collection so I figured what the heck just go for it, at worst it's a NOS label placed on a correct bottle.
Fast forward to 2018 of this month and I decided to delve into this label a little more and started to really compare it with my original NOS labels from Starlite bottlers Sask.
And of course my findings were that this label is in fact a copy, at least in my humble opinion, but I do have a bottle that is in very pristine condition!

So during this research I just discovered another repro label (pre 1941 era) 12oz on green glass with the incorrect Dominion glass date code of 1954!...the internet pictures were enough to reveal the truth, and while my intent is not to harm anyone's reputation I am using the photos for educational purposes. I just cant see how it's possible for labels of this age to have these characteristics...if they were late 1960's labels, yes some have dots but even then they are used systematically for shading purposes. I should add that on some 1940's 50's labels that have a graphic scene such as mountains, it may have dots or cross hatching in shaded areas for detail as well.
On 1980's Crush products with paper labels from Canada I did note they have a dot matrix patterns on them. 

If anyone knows any different of the printing process used in the 1940's and can show me that these are legit examples, fill your boots! I have examined all the labels in my collection and have found none exhibit the features of the suspected labels. 

NOS on the right...authentic lithograph.




Real label...note the clear white field and the absence of dots...also note inside the letters P and E.



 Repro label- Here you can see the field littered with dots left behind by laser printing or inkjet.


Again a close up of the letters on repro label.


Real label.




This is the earlier style label that is also suspect of being a copy.



Date code of 1954....way off for this label!...this bottle helps to confirm my suspicions of a copied label.





This blown up section of label really reveals the dots on both the field and lettering.



And this is my sample NOS label.




This was another green glass from an ended sale, it has a Consumer glass mark on it so I was unable to date the age on it. 
The close ups on this one are from the neck tag and the results are the same.





Repro label




My NOS label...photo got a bit fuzzy but you can see the difference.


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## CanadianBottles (Apr 14, 2018)

Oh wow, I didn't think there were Canadian repro Pepsi labels.  I'll have to keep a lookout for those if I'm ever buying Pepsi bottles.  One other big red flag about those green Pepsi bottles is that those "Bottle Made In Canada" bottles are beer bottles, not soda bottles.  They were the generic Quebec beer bottle in the 50s, similar to those long-neck brown bottles that preceded the stubby bottles in BC.  I don't think the glass is heavy enough for them to be used for soda, although I'm not 100% certain about that.


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## iggyworf (Apr 14, 2018)

Great detective work! Thanx for sharin!


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## RCO (Apr 14, 2018)

as so few paper label bottles survived , it wouldn't surprise me that some of the ones on the market today would be reproductions , if it seems too good to be true it usually is 

the odds of a paper label surviving in good condition are relatively slim , I've only came across 1 paper label pepsi and all that was left was the top label , enough to identify it was from a local bottler but none of bottom label was left , I don't have it anymore , traded it a while back


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## RCO (Apr 14, 2018)

another paper label bottle I have is for a local ginger ale ( Browns Gravenhurst )  , I'm 100% certain its real even though I did find it at a yard sale in 2015 . 

from talking to an older antique store owner about this company , there was many labels saved , you see a lot for sale online or in stores for " browns beverages / muskoka dry ginger ale  " they are real , guess what you'd call old new stock but there mostly from the 40's - 60's era 

but my bottle is clearly much older , never been able to date it to an exact year but I've assumed 1920's or even a bit older , and true the odds of 1 surviving this long are low , it seems to be the 1% or less that did 

also in all my years of collecting I have never once seen anything similar , never seen a label identical to this one or a bottle this size with a similar label from Browns  , online or for sale or anywhere 

I also don't think you can fake wear and damage , it just looks really old and fragile ( scared to even touch it , its dusty but hard to clean it off )  , and I found it at a yard sale and paid very little for it so not like they were trying to rip me off


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## CanadianBottles (Apr 14, 2018)

Yeah when you see labels like that you can usually be pretty confident that it's authentic.  There's a certain type of wear and aging that is very difficult to fake accurately, although some of the more advanced fakers will attempt to artificially age the paper.  It looks like someone tried to do that on the green Pepsis, although the paper being white where the paint has flaked off is a big indicator that something isn't right.


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## hemihampton (Apr 14, 2018)

CanadianBottles said:


> Oh wow, I didn't think there were Canadian repro Pepsi labels.  I'll have to keep a lookout for those if I'm ever buying Pepsi bottles.  One other big red flag about those green Pepsi bottles is that those "Bottle Made In Canada" bottles are beer bottles, not soda bottles.  They were the generic Quebec beer bottle in the 50s, similar to those long-neck brown bottles that preceded the stubby bottles in BC.  I don't think the glass is heavy enough for them to be used for soda, although I'm not 100% certain about that.




Pepsi was know to use actual 12 oz beer bottles. LEON.


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## RCO (Apr 14, 2018)

CanadianBottles said:


> Yeah when you see labels like that you can usually be pretty confident that it's authentic.  There's a certain type of wear and aging that is very difficult to fake accurately, although some of the more advanced fakers will attempt to artificially age the paper.  It looks like someone tried to do that on the green Pepsis, although the paper being white where the paint has flaked off is a big indicator that something isn't right.





 couldn't see how the brown's bottle I found could possibly not be authentic , everything seems right about it and just the overall look and feel of label appears very old 


is it possible with the pepsi's that some of the labels are " new old stock " and someone attached them to an old pepsi bottle , or are they entirely reproductions and not authentic in any sense ?  

but it should be a red flag that so many of the Montreal one's keep coming up for sale as the odd's of so many surviving are low , unless an entire case was kept hidden somewhere dry


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## hemihampton (Apr 14, 2018)

Example of Pepsi on Beer Bottle. It was for this reason, Pepsi putting there Product in a 12 oz bottle that it was able to outsell Coke for the first time. Since you were now able to get 12 oz for 5 cents compared to Cokes 6 oz for 5 cents. LEON.


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## Robby Raccoon (Apr 14, 2018)

I happen to make a study of printing methods.
Nice research, but you have to be careful: The "dot matrix" is modern if it's very well organised (if you play 'connect the dots', you should get a pattern) versus an earlier, normal (very cheap) lithographed label with fairly irregular dots (most advertising was either lithoed or graven). Now, in the 1940s people were just coming into regular printing with a regular pattern of dots (I find it going back to the 1930s for high-quality prints, but not yet labels). A closer inspection with 10x magnification will tell you if the dot itself is well-organised (suggesting post-1960 if the dot is really 4 dots making up a square, which makes up more of an image) or if it is a single dot and of an irregular shape (suggesting actual lithography, which still continues today but in a modified format: The last of the old-fashioned lithography fell away in the 1970s as lithographic printing machines took over-- the matte-finish sale-ads at some stores are the last of the modern lithographs, but they are done on printers and not by people). 
The 1940s was a very modern time for printing (for most technology, really).  There are always exceptions, of course: For example, newspapers throughout the 1900s used what is called half-tone printing: It's literally half an image, comprised of regular dots, that uses distance and size of dots in relation to one another in order to make shading in images. I have an original label exhibiting this (postcards often exhibited it, too). That's an exception to this general idea, as little is really a rule: There's often exceptions. But, in your example, the dots over the white do make it clear that it is a printed picture. Your observation on a 1980s label is on par, as this sort of printing is in full swing from then on. If you study modern advertisements, you will see the difference between them and an earlier litho (when using a 10x loupe).


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## CanadianBottles (Apr 14, 2018)

hemihampton said:


> Example of Pepsi on Beer Bottle. It was for this reason, Pepsi putting there Product in a 12 oz bottle that it was able to outsell Coke for the first time. Since you were now able to get 12 oz for 5 cents compared to Cokes 6 oz for 5 cents. LEON.
> View attachment 182427


Oh interesting, I stand corrected then.  I won't be dismissing a Pepsi label on a beer bottle automatically in the future then.  Do you know how long they kept the beer bottles?  I'm guessing until they introduced the clear swirl bottles?  Wikipedia lists 1936 as the date when they introduced the 12oz bottles, not sure if that's true or not.  I'm not sure when they introduced those generic green beer bottles but I think it was a while later than that.


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## Canadacan (Apr 16, 2018)

Thanks for the response fellas, great to have you all participating!.. Spirit Bear thanks for that info, I never have studied this as in-depth as you so I don't really know all the terminology  
I'm going to provide some more examples so we can see what to look for, and yes 10X loupe is essential to have. I did the best I could using my camera on my phone for close up photos.

First up I'll show you these two Crush labels form the 80's that exhibit these organized dots in specific areas. Another thing to watch for is 'Registration' marks, this is the specific area where one color overlaps onto another leaving a darker line or a varied shade depending on colors.
Just to note that these are authentic labels and I'm quite sure they would look much different as copied labels. Sorry about that upside down one!

I will post some more labels tomorrow from the late 20's-30's era, and one in specific I'd like to show is a 75th anniversary Canada dry label because it was made to look older than it is. 





At this magnification you can easily see the dots.



And now you can clearly see the organised dots used to complete the images, and along the green you can see the registration marks.
I believe in the darker orange area the dots are larger and basically connect, as they move down and the shading becomes lighter the dots decrease in size.


And this is another example showing the same characteristics as the label above.  







Next up lets look at some 1970-71 labels. In this case the dots are used just for the purpose of solid shading and do not change in size.









In this section I'm not sure those are really dots, as it is the darker color over the lighter one and leaves behind a dot pattern.


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## Canadacan (Apr 16, 2018)

Ok here is a Canada Dry 75th anniversary label from 1979




This is the only place on the entire label that used any dots, I suppose it was to give it tone.


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## Canadacan (Apr 17, 2018)

Next up I have a mid to late 1960's  Coke NDNR label for a 26oz bottle. This example has no dots what so ever. I'm going to include a 1950's cancelled Coke cheque, pretty much the same thing as a label printed using lithography. And I have a real cool Natural Set Up label to show.



When you view these labels up close you can see in many of the examples the lines are not perfect by any means.














I just love this label!...I believe this would be 1940's era. 


Not much for dots on this one...just in the upper lettering and on the dice. Interesting to see this same use of them on an earlier label as on a early 70's label.






If you really examine this carefully you can see the registration marks through the gold print, and where the red lines run through lettering it shows much darker.
These are features that a modern laser printer wont produce.


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## Canadacan (Apr 18, 2018)

Here are some labels I picked up last year at auction, all authentic NOS! I'm just going to show a couple shots each of 2 labels here.  
I went and did some test copies of a couple labels I'll show later on, it's a good way to see how inkjet will print them out compared to originals.




Not quite dots used here. I have another example of this 1920's label but it's not quite as refined as this one, some labels up close are actually pretty sloppy looking, and in some cases the labels are just poorly done.



Once again the white field is clean, copied label would be speckled with dots.



I love this Silver Tip ginger ale label !... These originals were very well made.


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## pooroldcancollector (Apr 18, 2018)

Nice bottles. Are all of those Canada Dry labels from 1979? Was this label ever used before that? I have one as well. Mine has a wine stopper finish. 





Canadacan said:


> Ok here is a Canada Dry 75th anniversary label from 1979
> 
> View attachment 182450
> 
> ...


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## Canadacan (Apr 18, 2018)

pooroldcancollector said:


> Nice bottles. Are all of those Canada Dry labels from 1979? Was this label ever used before that? I have one as well. Mine has a wine stopper finish.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'wine stopper finish'? I assume your referring to your bottle? 

A similar style was used all through out the 20's, 30's and 40's. This is a replica of an original label that had the beaver on it, this was short lived because the beaver was already in use by another famous company (Canadian Pacific Rail) and this caused some trademark conflict so it was removed. I've seen an advertisement from 1916 and it no longer appeared on the label.
JJ McLaughlin (1904-1923) changed hands in 1923 and became Canada Dry Ginger Ale Inc. (1923-1986) By the 1930's JJ no longer appeared on labels.

This was the primary label from the 20's, 30's and 40's, and of course the early 20's for sure had the JJ McLaughlin displayed, and by 1951 the 'shield' label was in use.



These are both quarts, brown is dated 1947, and this is the 75th label on an original bottle.



Here are two 12oz bottles, 1930's -1940's and the shield style is from 1953. There are some small label variations on the 30's-40's label mainly to do with the 'Canada Dry' font style. I'm pretty sure I have enough samples to compare to any labels in the future that may be suspect copies.


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## Too Many Bottles (Apr 18, 2018)

A little off subject but, there are a whole lot of reproduction Jumbo Peanut butter jar lids, being sold claiming to be " New old stock " as well. They are NOT !


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## Canadacan (Apr 18, 2018)

Ok here is what I pulled off on my cheap little home printer, now I realize the quality is poor but it starts to give you an idea what can be done. If you had a nice $300-400 printer they'd start to come out pretty good.

Real on the left, copy on the right.


Real


Copy



Real



Copy- from a distance it looks great!..but once you move in close it looses detail. A high quality printer may get better colour and finer detail but it will still have those tiny dots seen in the white part of the mountain scene.


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## Canadacan (Apr 20, 2018)

Here is the test copy of the original label in question (English version), again with similar results the white field ends up littered with dots. This pretty much concludes this little study of copied labels. Sadly these are still being sold on ebay as I type this, I did also note there was a NOS French version for sale...it's just the large label with no neck tag, the photos of it aren't perfect but just enough to qualify it as original....I would still like to have one in my collection as a reference.

Copy is on the left, with a high quality printer the colours will come out much nicer, this was done on regular 24lb bright copy paper.



This is the copy from smaller neck label.


And the NOS original neck label.





Copy section from the large label.



And the NOS large label.


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## GLASSHOPPER55 (Apr 23, 2018)

Interesting! Thanks for posting those. Yes, Ebay's always been loaded with all types of fake Pepsi labels. (Coke too).  Makes it hard to find real ones. When I'm out antiquing I'm always saying "Wish I could find a bunch of NOS ones sometime!"


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## Canadacan (May 7, 2018)

GLASSHOPPER55 said:


> Interesting! Thanks for posting those. Yes, Ebay's always been loaded with all types of fake Pepsi labels. (Coke too).  Makes it hard to find real ones. When I'm out antiquing I'm always saying "Wish I could find a bunch of NOS ones sometime!"



Yea there was a seller on ebay (probably many now!) that would buy real labels (beer) and then copy them and stick them on bottles, rough them up bit, stain them with coffee and such and pass them off as real. I have no problem buying NOS so long as I get good photos up front.


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