# Stoneware? Schweppes



## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Dear List,
 I have no camera. I have no bottle knowledge except what I read on the web today. I have a bottle. Height 6 1/4 inches, cylindical, , with a sharp shoulder at 4 3/4 inches from which it slopes up narrowing to the neck which has a thick extra piece 7/8 inches high applied at the top of the neck. The bottom is 2 1/2 inches in diameter, very slightly raised in the center so that there is a definite rim on which the bottle rests.  There are no mold marks on the sides like glass might have.  It is pottery or stoneware with a brown glaze over a gray clay.  There was no glaze on the bottom; there are warn places at the lip.
 The label, located at the lower edge of the bottle, measures 1 7/8 inches tall by 2 3/4 inches around; is impressed into the bottle as if it had been rolled over a raised pattern before glazing and firing. It has plain straight borders except at the lower left corner and the upper right corner where the word "Schweppes" crosses it in a diagonal in a fancy "font" enclosed in a banner, whereby those two corners are terminated by fancy "S"s.  The upper left corner triangle has a crown and the words "TO THE    EEN"; the lower left has "TO THE PRINCE OF WALES"  with the crest of the Prince of Wales.  These markings would have been used from 1841 to 1901.  The piece may be common or may have been reproduced yesterday, but it looks old.  The workmanship is not impressive.  The area where the QU should be is absolutely smooth, not worn.  What other questions may I answer?


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## oz-riley (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi jdye,
 This bottle sounds like a stone ginger beer bottle, hard to date without a picture. Schweppes made a huge aray of glass and stoneware bottles.
 I have had a few Impressed Schweppes Stone Ginger Beers and all the ones i have seen have dated around the 1910, 1920 mark.

 thanks.
 Chris


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## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Thank you for your quick answer, Oz-Riley,
 There was a reason for suggesting the dates 1841 to 1901.  Queen Victoria did not officially make her heir the Prince of Wales until 1841 and her reign ended in 1901 at which time he became the King.  The dates you suggest of 1910-1920 seem unlikely to me, as a complete novice, because this bottle would not have been produced in England after 1901 except as a fake to lure collectors - three things against that theory: 1. there were a lot of real ones still around during that period and 2. this bottle doesn't look 'nice' enough to have lured tourist money and 3. at that period these weren't collectibles yet.  I sort of thought makers of fakes faked an article that was sought after.  

 I'm new and uneducated.  Do any other readers feel the above line of thinking does not match what is known in 'the bottle world'?


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 26, 2004)

Chris is just sharing his experience with stoneware Schweppes bottles.  He's already acknowledged that it is difficult to identify these bottles without a picture.  Don't get so bound up in your deductions about another culture in another era that you are not ready for an alternate explanation.

 The key here to finding the age and use of your bottle is a good picture.  There are lots of ways to do that:  a friend or relative with a camera; a print image and a friend's scanner; or, just lay the bottle directly on the platen of a high-resolution scanner.

 However you do it, someone knowledgeable is going to have to eyeball this bottle to provide you with some definitive information.

 --------------Harry Pristis


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## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Thank you for the correction in netiquette, Harry.  I want to learn.  As I am not uneducated in paleontology I assumed similar lines of thinking would lead me in the right direction.    I will hunt for a friend today.

 I did find a similar bottle, at last, on an ebay web site.  I borrowed it.  Credit and a big thank you to the donor, probably on this list.   The one pictured has "Ltd", mine doesn't.  It has the impression in a line across the top, mine has a boxed label aligned with the bottom edge.  It has an elongated neck including the top piece (which is unlike mine).  The pictured one has a ratio of neck and top/cylindrical base of ~.62 (.08 allowance for camera angle) whereas mine has the ratio of .36 meaning it is squater and the incline of the neck is much shorter than the pictured one.  No URL because it would be commercial.

 When I do a Google on Schweppes and stoneware I think the two combined does not a collectible. Only today did I get a my first hit on google, whench the picture.

 Interested in any comments, good, bad or indifferent.  Maybe this one goes back on the trash heap it came from.  That's OK.  I'll keep digging - thou there are no bottles in the layers I normally dig - Ordovician.  I can see all of you enjoy this very much, digging is fun, and learning a whole new vocabulary staves off Altzheimers (fact).


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## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Ok. Bye all.
 I've joined the "Quess I'll go eat worms" forum[&o]


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## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Would anyone want this dumb ol' bottle in their trash heap?  That way you could look at it, post its picture for me and then throw it away yourself.  Would you pay postage at least?[X(]


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 26, 2004)

Just be patient, jdye.  The collectors who might be expected to know most about your bottle are the Brits and the Aussies.  The Aussies are asleep at this hour and the Brits are going to bed.

 Post the pic of your bottle, and wait.  If you don't get a response right away, don't fret.  It may take weeks or months for the person with the right diagnosis to join the forum.   Just check the thread now and then, if you don't visit frequently.

 In the meantime, you can post your question and pic to this forum:
YAHOO BOTTLECOLLECTORS FORUM

 You may find some Schweppes collectors there.

 -----------Harry Pristis


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## oz-riley (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi Jdye,
 You are most likely right with your dating using Royalty time lines. With the picture you provided the bottle is a Crown Seal Stone Ginger Beer, crown seal patent was patented sometime in the 1870's I don't have an exact date, this would date your bottle between 1870ish to 1901.
 These bottles are collectable.

 Thanks
 Chris


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## jdye (Jan 26, 2004)

Thank you, Chris,
 The Crown Seal origin of 1870's does seem to narrow the date field, as you say to 1870-1901.  I don't see how the crown seal evidence can help on setting the latest date.  [Because of forgeries.]

 There are two or three questions remaining.  Proof that the Schweppes Co. was appointed supplier TO THE QUEEN  and TO THE PRINCE OF WALES by Queen Victoria?  I am using this to make the latest possible date 1901.  This may never have taken place.  Then my whole argument dies a quick death.

 There is one other period, after Schweppes was produced, that has the same combination. Queen Elizabeth made her son Philip the Prince of Wales in 1958 and they retain these titles to this day.    

 Question: When did stoneware Schweppes bottles become desirable enough to make it profitable to reproduce them as tourist ware or just plain fakes?  If the originals did have this marking label then there were a lot of them sold in 1851 and thereafter. They would not have become anything other than common-place for some time as they seem to last forever and must have been reused by the housewife just a I recycle the plastic qt. container that brings me the Chinese take out soup.
 Jayne


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## Papelotte (Jan 26, 2004)

Jayne

 One small point.
 Queen Elizabeth made her son *Charles* the Prince of Wales in 1958 and his investiture was in Caernarvon Castle on 1 July 1969.

 Stewart


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## oz-riley (Jan 26, 2004)

Hi Jdye,
 The last date would be from your Royal time line of 1901 when Queen Victoria's rein finished and the prince became king.
 I don't have any 'proof' that Schweppes was appointed supplier TO THE QUEEN and TO THE PRINCE OF WALES however Schweppes was a huge company with many different styles and types of bottles and a lot of them had Appointed to the King, Queen etc embosses on them.

 Most companies stopped using the stone Ginger Beer bottles and moved onto using glass bottles around 1930, Schweppes included.

 I don't know of any fake Schweppes bottles, most of the Schweppes bottles are fairly common and would not be worth making forgeries of them. This does not mean there are not fakes just means I have not seen one. 

 Thanks
 Chris


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