# Orange swimsuit bubble girl 7up



## Jbeas31

Label is much more greyed out/faded. It's a very unusual bottle embossed on one side with an 8 bubble ACL neck label on the other. 

I think it's a 1937.


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## iggyworf

Very cool bottle. I have seen one or two with the neck like that. I agree on the 1937.


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## Canadacan

That is a great variation!...never seen an orange swimsuit! also the combo of the neck tags, one embossed...and quite low on the shoulder, and the other ACL.
Which glass plant is that from?


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## iggyworf

If that is a 'D' in the triangle. Would that be Dominion glass Co.?


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## Canadacan

No that's not a Canadian bottle...that be a D  in a diamond


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## Jbeas31

In two years of looking at 7up bottles I hadn't come across an orange swimsuit girl. 
Bottom says 4, triangle with an R inside, then 7.


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## Jbeas31

It it also has Joyce Products Columbus Ohio embossed around the heel.


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## iggyworf

triangle with an R inside, = Reed glass Co Rochester NY.


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## RCO

my bottle is also from 1937 , I posted in in other thread about large 7 up bottle , unfortuently its too faded to determine if swimsuit was ever orange or not , but both bottles definity very old 7 up bottles


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## Jbeas31

Cool RCO. You lucked up finding that bottle out in the open for sure. 
There seem to be so many variations of the early 7ups until 1940. 
According to a few articles out there 1937 was the biggest year for variations on the bottles. 

The oldest 7up bottle I have is a 1936 Amber paper label. I posted it on the large u7p thread. The label has some tears on the edges and the bubble girl is gone but it's 75% there. Including  "The Howdy Co" on the bottom right of the label.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding 7up's official label colors ...

Open this link and scroll to where you see this info and this image ...

http://www.bottlebooks.com/carbonated beverages/carbonated_beverage_trademarks 1940.htm

Description of Mark: 

THE DRAWING IS LINED FOR THE COLORS EMERALD GREEN WHITE AND AN ORANGE HUE OF RED


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Early* 7up bottles that are an orange hue of red are unique but not necessarily uncommon ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:


> triangle with an R inside, = Reed glass Co Rochester NY.





R in a triangle = Reed Glass Company, Rochester, New York (c.1927-1956).


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31 said:


> View attachment 169945
> 
> 
> It it also has Joyce Products Columbus Ohio embossed around the heel.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Indianapolis, Indiana ~ 1938*


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> *Early* 7up bottles that are an orange hue of red are unique but not necessarily uncommon ...
> 
> View attachment 170053
> 
> View attachment 170054




SodapopBob. I appreciate the info. 
I completely understand the colors and variations of red to orange hues in the early bottles. 


My bottle has the bubble girl with an Orange swimsuit. 
Instead of being open with the green bottle as background or even a white filled in swimsuit. 

The Joyce company Columbus Ohio is embossed on the heel of the bottle instead of the middle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

I stand corrected. I thought you were talking in general terms about the overall color. I realize now you were literally referring to the swimsuit itself as being colored in. I missed seeing it earlier in your sideways pictures. Yours is the first colored swimsuit I have ever seen.  

Here's the bottle upright ...


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## Canadacan

Yes now you see Bob!... Lol.... Is that not a dandy of bottle or what!?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I have been looking around and cannot find another colored swimsuit. It might be the only known example. Even if it isn't a one of a kind, its definitely one in a jillion!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

I'm not shy and would like to offer you $50.00 + shipping for your colored swimsuit bottle. If it were in better condition I would offer even more!


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> I stand corrected. I thought you were talking in general terms about the overall color. I realize now you were literally referring to the swimsuit itself as being colored in. I missed seeing it earlier in your sideways pictures. Yours is the first colored swimsuit I have ever seen.
> 
> Here's the bottle upright ...
> 
> View attachment 170091



No problem Bob. I'm sorry my pictures suck. I took it as a comparison to one of my other early bottles. How did you manage to get it to post upright?  

I knew it was rare when I saw it on eBay. Its quite odd with a smaller script embossed 7up on one side and an 8 bubble trapezoid shape on the other side of the neck.  
I had to have it.  

The white ACL is very faded (shows up best with a light source on it) but still intact. 

It will be one I put in some sort of case by itself to protect it.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> I'm not shy and would like to offer you $50.00 + shipping for your colored swimsuit bottle. If it were in better condition I would offer even more!



You and Canadacan replied before i was done with my last post, haha.  I appreciate the offer Bob, but I'm not ready to part with it yet. I just  
received it myself when I posted it to the thread.  It's like a new baby to me. 

Ive seen a few examples of a white swimsuit girl around the net before. Do you think it could have been a prototype of some sort?  Ive read where 1937 was the greatest year for variations.   
If you find anything please let me know on here or my email is jbeasley3174@yahoo.com. 

Also were those your own 7up bottles posted earlier?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

In reply ...

1.  We have seen other sideways images here on the Forum but I'm not sure how that happens unless they are sideways in your file to start with. If so, rotate them in your file prior to posting.  

2.  The first thing I did with the picture I posted was to save it to my file where I rotated and then cropped it using my photo editing.

3.  The pictures of the bottles I posted are not mine and are from various sources I saved to my files. I currently have about 250 7up related images on file but only one of which is of a colored swimsuit. 

4.  I suspect your bottle is more an error than a prototype. In order for a glass factory such as Reed to apply color to such a refined area as the swimsuit had to be done intentionally. I can't say for certain but I seriously doubt the bottler specifically ordered it that way and that someone at the glass factory messed up.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Its possible the colored swimsuit might be something that only The Reed Glass Company produced. Here's a *1936* Reed 7up bottle. And even thought it doesn't have the colored swimsuit, it does have some rather unusual criss-cross embossing on the neck. It could be that Reed Glass was a bit of a rogue glass manufacturer. I'm going to see what I can find specifically related to their 7up bottles.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB.   I hope you can understand about me not wanting to part with the bottle. 

1& 2. I will have to try taking pictures with my camera instead of my iphone. I suspect it may be part of the problem. 

3. Okay, yes it's always nice to have references for future use.   Do you collect a lot of 7up bottles/memorabilia? 

4.The only reason I thought it might be a prototype is because of the unique 7up embossed low on the neck and the odd 8 bubble logo on the other side of bottle.  
 Combined with the orange suit its an interesting combination. 

I knew it had to be intentional and probably a little more costly to apply in that   
I wonder could it have been limited to a very small run of the bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Long story short ...

*Extremely-Extremely Rare*


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Its possible the colored swimsuit might be something that only The Reed Glass Company produced. Here's a *1936* Reed 7up bottle. And even thought it doesn't have the colored swimsuit, it does have some rather unusual criss-cross embossing on the neck. It could be that Reed Glass was a bit of a rogue glass manufacturer. I'm going to see what I can find specifically related to their 7up bottles.
> 
> View attachment 170092
> 
> View attachment 170093


Great example
Reed glass does seem to be a bit rogue. I also own a Beaver Falls bottle from Reed with the criss cross pattern on the neck. R in the center of triangle at center. Above 299, right lower 40, left lower 3A


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because we are discussing ACL bottles, this link is to what I consider the best article ever compiled on the subject. Notice it says Reed Glass was one of the earliest glass manufacturers to use the process. As far as I know, this is the first time this article has been posted on the Forum and hopefully will be a treat for ACL collectors. If the link doesn't open directly on the article, click on article number *1305*

Article by ...

*Cecil Munsey*

http://cecilmunsey.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=1252&&Itemid=3


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a *1938* Tom Joyce 7up bottle made by Reed Glass. Notice it has the typical swimsuit and not the colored one. It could be the colored swimsuit was only produced in 1937 ???


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## Jbeas31

This may be another example of a 1937 bottle posted in 2011 by surfaceone.  


https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?425842-7-up


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

Here's your "Joyce Products" bottle with surfaceone's "Joyce Products" bottle. The link Surf posted doesn't give a date nor say what glass company produced the bottle, but they appear to be similar. On Surf's bottle you can't see all of the swimsuit, but the little part you can just barely see doesn't appear to be colored, although it might be. By the way, Surf was a great researcher and Forum member who unfortunately passed away a few years ago. We all miss him. 

*Yours*





*Surf's*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the fun of it ...

Here's a Reed ACL ad described by Cecil Munsey as dating Circa 1936

View attachment 170112 

View attachment 170113


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> Here's your "Joyce Products" bottle with surfaceone's "Joyce Products" bottle. The link Surf posted doesn't give a date nor say what glass company produced the bottle, but they appear to be similar. On Surf's bottle you can't see all of the swimsuit, but the little part you can just barely see appears to be a typical swimsuit and not colored. By the way, Surf was a great researcher and Forum member who unfortunately passed away a few years ago. We all miss him.
> 
> *Yours*
> 
> View attachment 170104
> 
> 
> *Surf's*
> 
> View attachment 170105
> 
> View attachment 170106



I see it now that it is the typical label. That appears very similar to the embossing style of my bottle though.    

That is very sad to hear about Surf. 

SODAPOPBOB I really appreciate all your input on this thread.  
I am a young newbie to bottle collecting specifically 7up's. I hope to continue collecting for many more years. 
 Not sure if you checked out my other thread "Early large u7p bottle".  I posted my collection, so far, on it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

What would help is to find as many of the same or similar bottles as possible, especially if they can be properly dated, and then do some comparing. However, even with that said I suspect your bottle is the only known example that has the colored swimsuit and finding another one might be next to impossible.


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## Jbeas31

Here is the image of the bottles with a white swimsuit bubble girl I referred to earlier.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?456765-Some-unusual-8-bubble-7-Up-bottles


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## SODAPOPBOB

So far there are three common denominators with the colored (orange & white) swimsuit labels, which are ...

1.  Joyce Products
2.  Columbus, Ohio
3.  Reed Glass Company

In my opinion this is more than just a coincidence!


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> So far there are three common denominators with the colored (orange & white) swimsuit labels, which are ...
> 
> 1.  Joyce Products
> 2.  Columbus, Ohio
> 3.  Reed Glass Company
> 
> In my opinion this is more than just a coincidence!



Completely agree! 

Also noticed this:   "The Joyce Products Co Columbus, Ohio. The bottom is marked with an R in a triangle: 6 /R 8."

Would that place the white swimsuit bottle from 1938?


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## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> So far there are three common denominators with the colored (orange & white) swimsuit labels, which are ...
> 
> 1.  Joyce Products
> 2.  Columbus, Ohio
> 3.  Reed Glass Company
> 
> In my opinion this is more than just a coincidence!



Here's another example except this one has the typical see-through swimsuit. It is described as 1940s, and even though that might be correct, I believe the seller was just guessing. There is no picture of the base for confirmation, but its definitely typical no matter when it was produced. Also notice it has 8 bubbles. 

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-40s-bubble-up-girl-7oz-7up-bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31 said:


> Also noticed this: The Joyce Products Co Columbus, Ohio. The bottom is marked with an R in a triangle: 6 /R 8."
> 
> Would that place the white swimsuit bottle from 1938?



Probably but I'm not 100% certain


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's another typical 'see-through' swimsuit bottle by Joyce Products, Columbus, Ohio that's currently on eBay. There's no confirmed date but likely 1940s. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-UP-GREEN-...hash=item2a24edee12:m:m1hGQRD8d1rwUO1LG0FTU8w


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## SODAPOPBOB

All the road signs point to ...

*1937-1938*


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> All the road signs point to ...
> 
> *1937-1938*
> 
> View attachment 170116



So far it appears that way. So more than likely only one glass company made these bottles for Joyce. 
Which  leaves a very limited number of bottle examples even produced.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I take back what I said earlier about them being *error* bottles. Based on the latest clues it appears Joyce Products intentionally *ordered* the white and orange variations from Reed Glass. Its doubtful that two variations would have been an accident.


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## Jbeas31

I'm inclined to believe that also. Two error runs do not make sense. 

Could they be test market bottles? 
Since Joyce appears to have been one of the earlier bottlers.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31 said:


> Could they be test market bottles?




I have been looking around but cannot find a definite answer to your question. However, I suspect they were more along the lines of being specific to Joyce Products in that they were ordered that way from the glass manufacturer to distinguish Joyce 7up bottles from those of other 7up bottlers. Even though this was fairly early for 7up ACL bottles (1937-38), a lot of bottlers were still doing their own thing and using amber bottles, such as those from San Diego, California and various locals in Texas that also used amber bottles. But I still have to believe the Parent Company would have frowned on any bottler who took it upon themselves to produce an ACL bottle with either a solid orange or solid white swimsuit on the label. I think if that sort of thing were allowed that we would be able to find more examples of the bottles and not just those by the Joyce Products Company of Columbus, Ohio. 

(More research is required)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of more research, I found the following for ...

*William Henry Joyce 

(U.S. Census & Columbus, Ohio Directories)*

*1878* = Born in Virginia
*1900* = Salesman
*1920* = Real Estate
*1925* = President of Joy Products Co.
*1930* = Soft Drink Manufacturer

I also found this ... 

https://m.nd.edu/current_students/news/index?feed=education&id=tag:news.nd.edu,2005:News/63410

Glenna (Stengel) Joyce had no substantive affiliation with either Ohio State or Notre Dame. A native of Greenfield, Ohio, she was a seamstress before her marriage to William H. “Will” Joyce, who move to Columbus, Ohio, in 1910 and, with a partner, established the Wyandotte Pop Co. and the Millbrook Distillery.

Will Joyce later started the Joyce Products Co. and Beverage Management Inc., which developed a lemon soda that became 7-Up. The Joyce's eventually owned several 7-Up bottling companies in Ohio and Michigan. After Will Joyce’s death in 1934, Glenna Joyce moved from a residence near Ohio State’s campus to Upper Arlington, Ohio, where she was a parishioner of St. Agatha Catholic Church. She was the major shareholder of Joyce Products Co. at the time of her death in 1960.

Glenna (Stengel) Joyce was born in Ohio in 1890


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31 

I found this picture of what appears to be your identical bottle. I found it on a website called Picclick.com that is one of those alternate sites that take you to eBay sales.

Does the background look familiar and is this possibly the picture that was on eBay when you bought your bottle? 

*Your Bottle*



*Picclick Bottle*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Earlier I accused the Reed Glass Company of being a rouge. I take that back and draw your attention to the Joyce family who, after reading this article, I'm inclined to think were downright crazy. You won't believe it unless you read it for yourself, which will require having to save it to your files first where you can then zoom it. The names are a little hard to make sense of because of the dates and various Juniors, etc., but its definitely about the Joyce's and their entire family of 7up bottlers. Just suffice it to say that its a "dynamite" article! Check it out! 



From ...

The St. Louis Dispatch ~ St. Louis, Missouri ~ December 23, *1979*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I cropped this portion of the 1979 article to draw attention to the names and hopefully make sense of them. Some of the Toms, Williams, and Bills that are mentioned as still living at the time of the feud are not the original Joyce brothers who were born in the 1800s, but are sons, nephews, and cousins.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*The Joyce Products Co.
Second Ave. & Perry St.
Columbus, Ohio*


*Started in 1932*


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> I found this picture of what appears to be your identical bottle. I found it on a website called Picclick.com that is one of those alternate sites that take you to eBay sales.
> 
> 
> *Picclick Bottle*
> 
> View attachment 170125




Yes that is my bottle. Exact same background.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> I found this picture of what appears to be your identical bottle. I found it on a website called Picclick.com that is one of those alternate sites that take you to eBay sales.
> 
> 
> *Picclick Bottle*
> 
> View attachment 170125




Yes that is my bottle. Exact same background.


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## iggyworf

Great stuff about the 'Joyce' bottles. Have to keep an eye out for those bottles.


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## iggyworf

Great stuff about the 'Joyce' bottles. Have to keep an eye out for those bottles. Jbeas31 excellent bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

At this juncture I feel it is safe to say that Jbeas31's solid-orange-colored-swimsuit 7up bottle is a ...


*One-Of-A-Kind Only Known Example*


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> At this juncture I feel it is safe to say that Jbeas31's solid-orange-colored-swimsuit 7up bottle is a ...
> 
> 
> *One-Of-A-Kind Only Known Example*



SODAPOPBOB
I knew it was rare when I saw it. I had no idea it was that rare. I have some nice 7up pieces, but this is now the gem of my collection.  

Thank you for the help and all the interesting information about the Joyce family.


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## Jbeas31

iggyworf said:


> Great stuff about the 'Joyce' bottles. Have to keep an eye out for those bottles. Jbeas31 excellent bottle.



Thanks iggyworf!


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## Photon440

Well, since there's now no chance to form a shelf collection of these orange swimsuit bottles, I'll offer only $25.  I'm sure SODAPOPBOB will have lost interest entirely by now and has withdrawn his earlier offer.


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## SODAPOPBOB

My offer of $50.00 still stands, but even with that said you have to wonder what the bottle is actually worth. Let's assume for the time being that its the only known example among thousands of other 1937 7up swimsuit bottles. Let's also assume they were only made for and distributed by the Joyce Products Company. Of course condition is also a factor which, based on the current pictures, I feel is safe to say is about a 7.0 on a scale of 10.0. If listed on eBay again and properly described and promoted as a one of a kind, only known example, you just gotta wonder what an advanced 7up collector would be willing to pay for it, especially if that collector had deep pockets and just had to have it? Would it sell in the $50+ range or possibly as much as $500+?  I honestly don't know the answer but perhaps in time others will make offers and help establish a true value.


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## Canadacan

I would pay up to $75 saying it's a 7.0 one of a kind.... and top out at about $125.00 for 9.0+. True you may get a hard core collector paying in the hundreds for even a one known, but if there is no supply there can there be much of a demand? I have seen and have rare items that only bring under the $100 dollar mark and much less in some cases. It would be worth it to list it on ebay to find out, just put a ridiculous reserve price on it and see where it goes to, yes some potential buyers may be unhappy but many people do it!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Based on the currently available evidence, it appears that ...

1. The solid-*orange* swimsuit bottles were only used by Joyce Products Company of *Columbus*, Ohio
2. The solid-*white* swimsuit bottles were only used by Downey-Joyce 7up Inc. of *Norwalk*, Ohio 

If this is correct as I believe it to be, then its possible that each bottler intentionally ordered their bottles with the different solid-colored swimsuits. But exactly why they would have done that I do not know. That is unless they had some specific reason for wanting to distinguish their individual bottles from one another.


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## Canadacan

2. The solid-*white* swimsuit bottles were only used by Downey-Joyce 7up Inc. of *Norwalk*, Ohio 

So are there many of these that show up or that are known to exist?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Canadacan said:


> 2. The solid-*white* swimsuit bottles were only used by Downey-Joyce 7up Inc. of *Norwalk*, Ohio
> 
> So are there many of these that show up or that are known to exist?




I currently only know of two examples of the solid-white swimsuit bottles as shown on this forum thread started by member JayBeck in October of 2011 ...

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?456765-Some-unusual-8-bubble-7-Up-bottles


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

As near as I can determine ...

1. The solid-orange swimsuit bottles are dated 1937
2. The solid-white swimsuit bottles are dated 1938


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's some additional information by former member surfaceone ...

Surfaceone Links

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?425842-7-up

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/joyce/1718/

There was a Joyce in early 1900s Columbus, OH who was proprieter of Joy Products Co.At some point he went into business with John Downey who married Adrienne M (aka Mary A.) Joyce...but I'm not sure who her parents were as Glenna and her husband had no children.Downey and Joyce ran Washington Breweries here in Columbus and at least two 7-up factories...one here and one in Norwalk, OH.

Here are the Joyces in the early Columbus, OH City Directories:

1914-1916, in the Cols, OH City Directory Wm H Joyce is proprieter of Millbrook Distilling Co.

1923 First entry for Joy Products Co. And John Downey's first entry with Adrienne.

1927 John Downey is now shown as VP of Joy Products Co.

1928 Company is now called Joyce Products.

1934 First entry for Washington Breweries.John Downey is shown as Pres but I'm assuming Joyce is still involved.

1941-1942 John Downey is Pres of both Washington Breweries and Joyce Products Co.

After 1942 Neither Company is listed.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ...

*John R. Downey*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Something to look for ...

11 Page Book

(Date Unknown)

Meet ...

*John M. Joyce*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

I found the eBay listing where you acquired your orange-swimsuit bottle and hope you don't mind my posting this image of it. But by doing so I'm hoping it will boost collector interest in it and also help increase its value. It truly is a unique bottle that most collectors are probably not even be aware of. In the past I have done just about as much research on 7up as anyone has and of the countless 7up bottles I've seen I have never once came across one like yours. I suspect what happened is that Joyce Products took it upon themselves to order the bottles without the parent company's knowledge but once the company got wind of it they told Joyce Products to cease and desist because the bottles did not conform to 7up standards. If this is indeed what occurred, then its possible there was only a single run of the bottles by the Reed Glass Company, which would explain their scarcity. I fully understand your wanting to keep the bottle, and I would do the same thing if it were mine. But if there is one bottle like yours, then there are surely to be a few others like it. But then again, maybe not. For all we know the parent company ordered Joyce Products to destroy them. If that's the case, then the rarity factor on your bottle might have just sky rocketed. 

Here's the eBay seller's description. Notice he doesn't even mention the orange swimsuit. Which suggest to me that he had no clue about it being extremely different from a typical eight bubble 7up bottle. However, some of his wording seems to indicate that he knows a thing or two about soda bottles. But why he didn't emphasize the swimsuit we will probably never know.  

"This auction is for a green 7 Up soda bottle from The Joyce Products Co. of Columbus, Ohio. This is a 7 oz. bottle dated I believe 1937. This 78 year old bottle is in great condition with no chips, dings or cracks. There is some minor surface wear to the bottle but that's about it. The label shows some wear and fading but ACL or painted label sodas from these early years of the process often had light and delicate labels that usually washed out in the cleaning procedure before the bottle itself actually wore out. These bottles were a transition bottle between the amber squatty 7 Ups and the green swimsuit girl bottles with the painted neck label. This bottle actually has a painted neck label on one side and an embossed 7 Up on the other. Ideally the neck labels would align with the front label but early on bottles had no locating lug cast into the bottles so when the bottle passed thru for the neck label to be applied it was just applied wherever it fell in place. Check out the pics and see how great this bottle looks on display. These bottles are more rare than the brown 7 Up bottles which show up on ebay all the time. Check out the pics and you'll see this is a good looking soda bottle for someone's collection."

Click back-and-forth and compare one bottle to the other. Notice the various differences between the orange and the white swimsuit bottles, such as the gaps at the arms and the line between the legs, to that of a typical eight bubble bottle ...

*Orange Swimsuit*



*Typical Eight Bubble*



*White Swimsuit*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Perhaps its true when they say ...

"*If there's something you desperately want but can't have, that makes you want it all the more *"

I guess that's where supply and demand comes into play. But there's another saying that goes something like ...

"*If there's something you desperately want that others want just as much, then you will have to pay the price to get it*"


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

Here's a *1943* Joyce Products 7up bottle that was on eBay in January of this year that did not receive a single bid. But the important part is that it confirms Joyce Products was not producing an orange swimsuit bottle at the time, at least not one that was made by the Owens Illinois Glass Company. I'm currently in search of any Joyce Products 7up bottles that were made between 1936 and 1940 to see if there are any others with the orange swimsuit and hopefully determine when they discontinued making them. But even with that said, I have a feeling that 1937 was the only year they were made.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Columbus-Oh...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## iggyworf

Great work again bob. this might be the new 'Holy Grail" for 7up bottle collectors. . . Like me.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:


> Great work again bob. this might be the new 'Holy Grail" for 7up bottle collectors. . . Like me.



iggy

Thanks to you as well. I know you collect 7up bottles and was hoping you'd eventually say something like that, which I agree with even though I don't specialize in 7up bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

I got to thinking about what you said regarding the orange swimsuit bottle possibly being the new 'Holy Grail" for 7up bottle collectors and wanted to ask ...

If you saw each of the bottles pictured here in an antique shop and both were in excellent condition and both priced at $100, but you could only afford to buy one of them, which bottle would you buy?

1.  This 1935 Tall-7 bottle which there are at least a dozen known examples of and considered 7up's first ACL?




2. Or this 1937 Orange-swimsuit bottle which there is only one known example of and considered extremely rare?


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

iggy

Let's expand on the scenario I described above by adding this to it ...

3.  You saw the two bottles first and are holding them in each hand and trying to decide which one to buy. But then another collector walks up and says he intends to buy the bottle you leave behind. You ask the clerk about layaways but are told the antique store does not allow them so you will have to decide right then and there which bottle you want and let the other collector have the one you leave behind at the rick of possibly never seeing another example of either one. Under those circumstances which bottle would you buy?


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## iggyworf

Bob, that's a tough one. If I had that kind of extra money, I personally would go for bottle #1. Mainly because it's the first ACL 7up bottle. But then secretly cry later for not buying the other one.
:boom:





What about you? Or anyone else?


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## jblaylock

I've been double checking every 7-Up bottle I see..............


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## OsiaBoyce

Did I miss some demonstration showing there were 12 known of the #1 bottle? I've been looking for that bottle for quite a while and have only seen 2 in 40 years of collecting. With that many bottles out there one should be easy to find................................or at least you would think.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> I found the eBay listing where you acquired your orange-swimsuit bottle and hope you don't mind my posting this image of it. But by doing so I'm hoping it will boost collector interest in it and also help increase its value. It truly is a unique bottle that most collectors are probably not even be aware of. In the past I have done just about as much research on 7up as anyone has and of the countless 7up bottles I've seen I have never once came across one like yours. I suspect what happened is that Joyce Products took it upon themselves to order the bottles without the parent company's knowledge but once the company got wind of it they told Joyce Products to cease and desist because the bottles did not conform to 7up standards. If this is indeed what occurred, then its possible there was only a single run of the bottles by the Reed Glass Company, which would explain their scarcity. I fully understand your wanting to keep the bottle, and I would do the same thing if it were mine. But if there is one bottle like yours, then there are surely to be a few others like it. But then again, maybe not. For all we know the parent company ordered Joyce Products to destroy them. If that's the case, then the rarity factor on your bottle might have just sky rocketed.
> 
> Here's the eBay seller's description. Notice he doesn't even mention the orange swimsuit. Which suggest to me that he had no clue about it being extremely different from a typical eight bubble 7up bottle. However, some of his wording seems to indicate that he knows a thing or two about soda bottles. But why he didn't emphasize the swimsuit we will probably never know.
> 
> "This auction is for a green 7 Up soda bottle from The Joyce Products Co. of Columbus, Ohio. This is a 7 oz. bottle dated I believe 1937. This 78 year old bottle is in great condition with no chips, dings or cracks. There is some minor surface wear to the bottle but that's about it. The label shows some wear and fading but ACL or painted label sodas from these early years of the process often had light and delicate labels that usually washed out in the cleaning procedure before the bottle itself actually wore out. These bottles were a transition bottle between the amber squatty 7 Ups and the green swimsuit girl bottles with the painted neck label. This bottle actually has a painted neck label on one side and an embossed 7 Up on the other. Ideally the neck labels would align with the front label but early on bottles had no locating lug cast into the bottles so when the bottle passed thru for the neck label to be applied it was just applied wherever it fell in place. Check out the pics and see how great this bottle looks on display. These bottles are more rare than the brown 7 Up bottles which show up on ebay all the time. Check out the pics and you'll see this is a good looking soda bottle for someone's collection."
> 
> Click back-and-forth and compare one bottle to the other. Notice the various differences between the orange and the white swimsuit bottles, such as the gaps at the arms and the line between the legs, to that of a typical eight bubble bottle ...
> 
> *Orange Swimsuit*
> 
> View attachment 170371
> 
> *Typical Eight Bubble*
> 
> View attachment 170372
> 
> *White Swimsuit*
> 
> View attachment 170373




SODAPOPBOB:  I do not mind at all that you posted the information from the ebay seller. It seems that he completely ignored the orange swimsuit and was referring to the embossed 7up and odd neck label and the early year it was produced.     

I'm all for having the information out there for other collectors and if it happens to increase the value of my bottle then that's an added bonus. 

I appreciate all the offers so far from all members, just at this current moment I am not in dire need to sell it. I hope that everyone can understand from collectors point of view. Perhaps if the right offer came along Id entertain it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

" Perhaps if the right offer came along Id entertain it."

Jbeas31

Like I said earlier, I'm not shy and would like to offer ...

*$150 + $25 Shipping = $175 Total*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

Here's another image from the eBay listing. But for some unknown reason it appears distorted as if a fisheye lens was used, causing the normally slim swimsuit girl to look somewhat robust ...


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> " Perhaps if the right offer came along Id entertain it."
> 
> Jbeas31
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'm not shy and would like to offer ...
> 
> *$150 + $25 Shipping = $175 Total*



Gosh SODAPOPBOB thats a very generous offer. 
"just at this current moment I am not in dire need to sell it" . You've already increased the value of my bottle.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Just for the record ...
> 
> Here's another image from the eBay listing. But for some unknown reason it appears distorted as if a fisheye lens was used, causing the normally slim swimsuit girl to look somewhat robust ...
> 
> View attachment 170431



Its not distorted she is definitely more robust. Her head also appears much more tilted upwards.


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## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> iggy
> 
> Let's expand on the scenario I described above by adding this to it ...
> 
> 3.  You saw the two bottles first and are holding them in each hand and trying to decide which one to buy. But then another collector walks up and says he intends to buy the bottle you leave behind. You ask the clerk about layaways but are told the antique store does not allow them so you will have to decide right then and there which bottle you want and let the other collector have the one you leave behind at the rick of possibly never seeing another example of either one. Under those circumstances which bottle would you buy?




Which one Bob? Or anyone else????

Awesome bottle!


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Here's my first choice - but I would like to have both bottles eventually ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Speaking of the other bottle, here are five examples of it that I had on file. Plus, I have seen several references about it that didn't have pictures ... 

Note: I'm almost certain the first and third picture are of the same bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31

Thanks for considering my offer. Please let us know if/when you decide to sell it and/or list it on eBay. The fact the swimsuit girl is robust and not slim like other 7up bottles makes it even more unique. The Reed Glass Company would have had to of used a special silkscreen to achieve that.  

Thanks again, 

Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding the date of the first 7up (Tall-7) Acl bottle ...

Some references say its dated 1935, while others say 1936. This is the only good picture of the base I can find and it appears to definitely be a 3 <(I)> 6 for 1936. The 3 is for the Owens-Illinois plant in Huntington, West Virginia that began operation in 1930. Notice the embossing says Dr. Pepper Bottling Company New Orleans, Louisiana. As far as I know that was the only bottler that produced and distributed them.


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## iggyworf

Yes I would love to get both bottles. And I would probably not want to sell them for a long time. Jbeas31 we are envious!
Here is the link to the 'collectorsweekly' site about the first ACL bottle. I think I posted this before but here it is again. very cool. It is also from the Dr Pepper co.  But the pic of the bottom is harder to read. It appears to e a different bottle then the one Bob posted.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/47842-7up-bottle-found-years-ago?in=loved-by-iggy


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## jblaylock

I've got to keep my eyes open for these.


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Jbeas31
> 
> Thanks for considering my offer. Please let us know if/when you decide to sell it and/or list it on eBay. The fact the swimsuit girl is robust and not slim like other 7up bottles makes it even more unique. The Reed Glass Company would have had to of used a special silkscreen to achieve that.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Bob



You're welcome. 
This forums member's will have first crack at the bottle if I ever decide to sell it. 

Your picture of Golum pretty much sums up how I feel about it right now. It's definitely My Precious right now. 

I'm just a rookie in the bottle collecting realm. It feels pretty cool to have recognized the bottle for its uniqueness and then be its owner. 

Regarding the size the entire logo is larger than any other bottle I own. The 7 is noticeably longer at the top corner. Then the bubble girl is roughly double the size in width of the typical girl.


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## Jbeas31

iggyworf said:


> Yes I would love to get both bottles. And I would probably not want to sell them for a long time. Jbeas31 we are envious!
> Here is the link to the 'collectorsweekly' site about the first ACL bottle. I think I posted this before but here it is again. very cool. It is also from the Dr Pepper co.  But the pic of the bottom is harder to read. It appears to e a different bottle then the one Bob posted.
> 
> http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/47842-7up-bottle-found-years-ago?in=loved-by-iggy



 I'd also like to own the other bottle as well. 
Yes I can tell their is some envy and I completely understand.  You said how I feel right now about wanting to not sell mine. 

Yes that's a very cool bit of information about the first bottle. I've seen some of the later New Orleans Zetz bottles around.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the pertinent information from the Collectors Weekly site about the first 7up Acl in case the link ever fails ...

By:

Spratjack70118, 1 year ago (2015)

I received this information from the Collections Manager at the Dr. Pepper/7up Museum in Waco, TX.

I had sought further information from them on my bottle, and this was her reply:

I did some more research on the Dr Pepper franchise in New Orleans. The Zetzman family, who owned the franchise, was awarded a 7UP franchise by mail in 1933. This was typical of the time, with the 7UP company's President C. L. Grigg trusting the word and handshake of bottlers in order to get 7UP in markets. Apparently the introduction of 7UP in New Orleans was an initial flop, so in 1934 Mr. Grigg himself went to New Orleans (among other places in the south) to see if he could fix things. In 1934 the Zetzman family officially joined the 7UP family and made it their top priority. This didn't sit well with the Dr Pepper Company, who note in their franchise book that their relationship with the Zetzman family was "never very cordial" because they wouldn't do the advertising necessary to make sales. In 1937 the Dr Pepper Company bought their franchise back and put someone else in charge, and the Zetzman family made sure 7UP was the main drink in New Orleans.

Because the bottle says "Dr Pepper Bott Co" this bottle has to date between 1933 and 1937. Based on everything I've read about C. L. Grigg, he was very fastidious and insisted bottlers stick to the formula and the 7 ounce green glass bottle. It is weird that the logo would stray this far, so I'm still not sure. My co-worker Joy has never seen the bottle either. Perhaps this was one of the bottles in production in that uncertain and unsuccessful year between 1933-1934?


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## SODAPOPBOB

For future reference here's a close-up of the back on the orange swimsuit bottle ...


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## Jbeas31

SODAPOPBOB said:


> For future reference here's a close-up of the back on the orange swimsuit bottle ...
> 
> View attachment 170468




Bob, I will take some more pictures sometime this coming week for future reference.
Some for comparison and some better quality shots. 

I did want to point out that the photos I've taken have been with a flash.  The writing is more faded white/grey. Which seems to have happened on many of the early ACLs.    The Orange is a little more prominent but not as bright as say the bottle you posted from Joyce from the 1940s. 

I would like to display the bottle by itself in some sort of protective case. Any recommendations? I had thought about one of the glass dome top with wooden bottom displays.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Jbeas31 said:


> I would like to display the bottle by itself in some sort of protective case. Any recommendations? I had thought about one of the glass dome top with wooden bottom displays.




Excellent idea - it would display nicely and look something like this ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because I have hit a dead-end on the Orange Swimsuit bottle and cannot find a picture or reference to another one, I'm switching gears and focusing on the *White Swimsuit* bottle and see what I can find regarding it. So far it appears the Orange Swimsuit bottle and the White Swimsuit bottle are equally rare. The only difference being, we currently know of only one Orange Swimsuit bottle verses two White Swimsuit bottles, which is why I consider them equally rare. And of the two known White Swimsuit bottles, both were brought to our attention by member JayBeck in his 2011 thread where he said, in part ...

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?456765-Some-unusual-8-bubble-7-Up-bottles


"All of the bottles in the photo are from Norwalk, Ohio but the two on the right are also marked Columbus, Ohio and they are the same except for the one on the far right has the neck label on the side. I am not sure of the dates on these but they must be in the 1937-1939 range except for the one on the left which is dated 1941."

As near as I can determine according to JayBeck's descriptions, the four bottles he referred to, two of which depict the White Swimsuit, are marked as follows ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because the two bottles on the right have Norwalk, Ohio and *Columbus, Ohio* on them, that means there is possibly some type of connection between the Columbus, Ohio Orange Swimsuit bottle and the Columbus, Ohio White Swimsuit bottle. As near as I can determine, based on the 6/R8 mark on the 3rd bottle, which I'm currently assuming stands for 1938, it appears the White Swimsuit bottles were made in 1938. (But we still need confirmation as to what the 6/R8 actually represents).


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## SODAPOPBOB

Part of the explanation as to why there are no Downey-Joyce 7up bottles from Norwalk, Ohio later than 1948 can be found in this newspaper article where it says the Norwalk facility closed in 1948 ...

From ...

The Sandusky Register - Sandusky, Ohio - December 10, *1948*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Note:  The following pertains to Downey-Joyce 7up bottles, including another example of a *White Swimsuit* bottle. Which now makes three known examples, two of which are the ones posted earlier and owned by member JayBeck.

I have tried to describe them accurately on my list, but please visit the links where I found them for more pictures and information. 

Notice the images where I placed a *Red X* in the lower-left corner. I consider those as possibly being examples of what I referred to earlier as a "robust" swimsuit girl. Please look them over closely and see if you agree about the Red X examples as being robust. If they are indeed variations of the robust swimsuit girl, then it indicates that Jebeas31's Robust Orange Swimsuit girl has company. In other words, it means some of the robust girls are Orange, some are White, and some are Clear (non painted). Check'em out and see what you think ...  


1. Downey Joyce - Non White Swimsuit - Norwalk, Ohio - Date Unknown - 8 Bubble - Date and Glass Maker Unknown - Heavy Paint Loss 

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vtg-bubble-stomach-sake-bottles-515545856




2. Downey Joyce - White Swimsuit - Norwalk & Columbus, Ohio - 8 Bubble - Date and Glass Maker Unknown 

(This bottle is similar to JayBeck's bottle but is not the same one. In his thread, that was started on October 11, 2011, JayBeck said "I bought these four bottles a few days ago." But the one pictured here sold on eBay on March 20, 2011, which is seven months after JayBeck bought his bottle)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/oz-green-glass-bubble-girl-acl-soda-137987453




3. Downey Joyce - Non White Swimsuit - Norwalk, Ohio - 8 Bubble - Reed Glass 1938 - Orange Paint Loss

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1938-bubble-swim-suit-acl-green-7oz-1622244056




4. Downey Joyce - Two Different Non White Swimsuit - Norwalk, Ohio - Date and Glass Maker Unknown - Both 7 Bubble

(The swimsuit girl on the left appears robust, but the one on the right appears typical)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bubble-different-downey-joyce-seven-5467849


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's JayBeck's bottle with the other white swimsuit bottle I found. I'm placing them together for comparison ...

1. JayBeck's (1938)
2. Other (? 1938 ?) 



View attachment 170500


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Current Count / Known Examples ...*

Orange Swimsuit = One

White Swimsuit = Three


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

If anyone is a friend of member JayBeck, please contact him and ask him to check the white swimsuit bottle from WorthPoint that sold on eBay in March of 2011 and see if he thinks it might be the same bottle he bought in October of 2011

Thanks


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## SODAPOPBOB

On second thought, it might not be necessary to contact JayBeck. I should have thought of this earlier but just now thought of going back to WorthPoint for another look. Notice the WorthPoint bottle has the embossed 7up directly above the swimsuit girl, whereas on JayBeck's bottle the embossed 7up is not above the swimsuit girl - plus there's a scratch on the WorthPoint bottle that doesn't appear to be on JayBeck's bottle. Not to mention that the upper neck logos are positioned differently as well. Nope, not the same identical bottle!

WorthPoint Bottle 


 


JayBeck's Bottle


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## iggyworf

I agree that on the bottles mentioned that the girl is more 'robust' than the normal swimsuit girl. Great observations!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I just bought this 7up bottle on eBay for under $10.00 but I'm not sure what's going on with it. Notice it appears to depict a white swimsuit, and yet after careful examination everything that should be white appears dark, and everything that should be dark appears to be white. But surely that can't be the case. As far as I know its just a normal photograph except there's something weird about it. I'm not even sure where its from. The seller said he found it in his grandfather's barn and that's all I know about it. Anyway, my curiosity got the best of me so I decided to buy it. I'll let you know what's what about it when it arrives in about a week ...

This is the only picture of it that the seller posted


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## jblaylock

It does look different, but the lighting is horrible.


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## iggyworf

I hope it's a good one for ya Bob and not just bad lighting or photography.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks, guys

Its got me stumped!   

Even these cropped and enhanced close ups don't help much!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Let's try this comparison of a typical label to the weird label ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I wonder why there is a reddish-orange hue where the swimsuit girl is located? Everything in that area should be white!


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## iggyworf

It almost looks like the photo has been 'negated'.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

If by 'negated' you mean some type of reversed color, I agree. Even though I don't know how that sort of thing can be achieved with a simple photograph, its the only thing that makes sense. I guess I'll find out in about a week, but I'm predicting its a typical label that was strangely photographed.


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## Eric

Bet its cause light is coming through the green glass and when hitting the ACL (paint) light is being blocked/not coming through casting the dark negative look....
Bet most of the red/orange color is gone along the bottom of the square area with bubbles that is why the light coming through under the 7up
casting light green... all the white will be there blocking the light causing it to look almost black also.


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## Canadacan

I would say just odd lighting because the glass in behind is obscured.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Good News / Bad News

G/N = I received a 7up bottle

B/N = The seller shipped the wrong bottle

G/N = The seller doesn't want to ship the right bottle and issued a full refund and told me to keep the wrong bottle

B/N = I will never know for certain about the graphics on the bottle they listed but confident it was a typical 7up bottle that was poorly photographed

G/N (Sort of) = I got a Free bottle (That I didn't order and don't necessarily want)

The bottle I received is from Flint, Michigan - Owens-Illinois / Duraglas / 1946 - With major scuffing and rust stains. Oh well, life and bottle collecting/research goes on!


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## cowseatmaize

Fun G/N-B/N story Bob.  Has the one you wanted been relisted yet?


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## SODAPOPBOB

cowseatmaize said:


> Has the one you wanted been relisted yet?



Not that I know of - I checked this morning and didn't see it. I'm surprised the bottle that I did receive wasn't broken. It was only padded with a cardboard egg carton inside of an envelope.


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## iggyworf

Bummer! Remember not to order from that person again.lol


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## jblaylock

That seems really suspicious....


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## carling

Bob,

He relisted it.  He also corrected the lighting, too.  It unfortunately has the common label on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GRE...665958?hash=item25b98ab7e6:g:63UAAOSw9KpXADbQ


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## Eric

Yep... just light coming through the back giving it a reverse effect... least you weren't out a lot of money...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Yes - That's the same 7up bottle and the same seller. I guess they didn't want to correct the problem by sending me the right bottle because it would have cost them more in return shipping than the bottle(s) is worth. But at least we know now that it wasn't a white swimsuit bottle. So the search continues ...


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## Jbeas31

Bob, Perhaps we should update the Known examples figures. With Iggyworf's new white swimsuit 7up bottle discovery. 

*Current Count / Known Examples ...

Orange Swimsuit = One

White Swimsuit = Four*


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## VinTriage72

Jbeas31 said:


> This may be another example of a 1937 bottle posted in 2011 by surfaceone.
> 
> 
> https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?425842-7-up


That's correct. The 7up embossment came in 1938, u7p in 1937.


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