# EARLIEST ACL SODA BOTTLE(S) ?



## SODAPOPBOB

YOU'RE INVITED ...

 No doubt by now many of you have already seen Dragon0421's thread regarding his/her? recent finds, one of which is the "Big Cola" that (according to TJSJHART) - (whose knowledge I highly respect) was produced in 1937. And likely you have also seen my so called list regarding ACL bottles made between 1935 and 1939. And although it wouldn't surprise me that this subject has already have been discussed here on A-B.Net numerous times in the past, thus far in my search I have been unable to find such a thread. So I would like to invite anyone who has an ACL made "during" or "before" 1935, to post a photo of it here and to tell us something about it. I expect the total number of bottles from this time period to be few, thus making this a short, but hopefully interesting thread. The reason I selected 1935 as the starting date, is because 1935 is the earliest date referred to in my trusty "Collecting Applied Color Label Soda Bottles" book, (Third Edition). Most of us have seen references to the ACL process beginning as early as 1932/33?, but I for one have never seen one that old, and have to wonder if they even exist.

 So here's your chance to share photos of your early-early ACLs with the rest of the world. Providing, of course, they are available for viewing. And it's not neccessary to show a photo of the actual date itself, (unless you prefer to), as we will take you word for it that it is from the date you indicate.

 I personally have no photo to share here, as my earliest bottle is from 1941, which doesn't qualify.

 Thanks a bunch,

 SODAPOPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just to get things started, here is a photo of the 1935 "Brownie Club" bottle from Providence, Rhode Island. Which, again, is the earliest example of an ACL bottle in my book. But if someone has this actual bottle in their collection, please share a photo of it. Mainly I'm looking for bottles which are part of individual collections, as opposed to those like this one from a book. But if nothing else presents itself within the next day or so from private collections, its okay to post anything and everything, just so long as it is from 1935 or earlier. The main emphasis here is to see photos of those early-early ACL sodas no matter what the source.

 Thanks again,

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB

Guess who?  ...  LOL  [] 

 Since this is my thread, I guess it's okay to change and/or break the so called rules at my discretion. Thus, I'm changing the start date from 1935 to 1937. The reason for this is obvious to many, as there were just not that many (if any) ACL soda bottles produced prior to 1937, not to mention 1935. The only thing I ask in this new change of rules is, (for example) if someone post a photo of a 1936/37 squat, amber brown 7up bottle, not to duplicate it with additional photos. One should suffice to illustrate the early 7ups, unless, of course, you have one that is "totally" different from the others. Again, mainly what I'm looking for here are the "non-national" brands that existed during this time period, but will allow any brand from any source (personal collection - book - old magazine ad, etc.) if you feel it will be of interest to all concerned. You be the judge. 

 The link below connects to an article written by Dr. J. H. Toulouse in 1939, and should be of interest to all, especially the new-comers to the ACL soda bottle collecting hobby. If you are not already familiar with the actual ACL process on soda bottles, the article includes just about everything you need to know. The photo is from the article and illustrates some early examples of ACLs, although I am not certain on the actual dates of the bottles shown, other than they are likely from a fairly early date, being as the article was written in 1939.

 Thanks again, and again. I hope to hear from you soon.

 SPB

http://www.bottlebooks.com/ACL%201937/bottles_applied_color_labels.htm


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## madman

this is a great idea im game, c-mon guys ! morb? pat? td?,pete?acls?


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## madman

heres some of my early bottles they delv into about 1942 but you wont dig these in the dump with paint


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## madman

2


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## madman

3


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## jskirk

That Nesbitts  Orange is a really nice looking bottle.  Jay


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## SODAPOPBOB

Fantastic ! That's what I'm talk'n about !

 If you spell your name backwards, it comes out ...  "namdam"  ...  which is what I exclaimed when I saw your bottles.

 Good job !

 Thanks a million ...

 SPB


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## morbious_fod

This is the earliest ACL that I can actually date, and it is a 1936 Was-Cott Ginger Ale from North Tazewell, VA. Unfortunately I don't own this one, it belongs to Frank Anderson, but I have held it in my hands and took the picture of it. The acl is actually less intricate than it would later become; however, the wording and style are the same on the later bottles. With this one being so early in the process, I'm not shocked that it was originally much simpler. Being from a local bottler in the area, and it being their own brand, I'm not at all surprised they would try the new process. As you can see the white is quite dark on this one which is a common characteristic I have witnessed with these early acls. I am only going to post 1930's acls even though I have some early 1940's myself. I have seen another of these so it isn't just damaged. 






 This is so early in the process that the little nib doesn't exist on the bottle as the later 1940's bottles do.


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## morbious_fod

On the left is a 1938 Rums Dry from Bluefield, VA with it's 1943 counter part beside it. This is so you can see what I mean about the dingier/darker colors of these early acls.


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## morbious_fod

This has to be a late 1930's Royal Crown from Appalachia, Va. Another of Frank's bottles; however, there is no definate date on this one so it's just an educated guess.


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## morbious_fod

Quite possibly very early this Pop Kola is embossed L. L. Rice on the bottom. Lawrence L. Rice had bottling plants in Roanoke, VA, Johnson City, Tenn. (1940's), and Jacksonville, Florida. This bottle could have come from the first and last bottler as the Johnson City didn't open until 1941. It has a very dark appearance, which would indicate that it is an early acl.


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## madman

that rc is sweet!


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## morbious_fod

I know that this particular bottle is at least the late 1930's. The acl is quite weak on these and very few have survived, unfortunately I no longer own this example. The bottling company which fits the time period of this bottle in Johnson City was the Seven-up bottling company of Johnson City which is embossed on the bottom. The company changed hands around 1940, and I am fairly sure this predates the selling. Yet again this bottle has no date.


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## morbious_fod

A 1939 Lucky Giant Cola bottle from Tazewell, VA, the same company which experimented with the Was-Cott bottle posted earlier, appearenlty liked the result and converted all of their brands to acl by 1940. This is another of Franks, who outbid me on this one.


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## morbious_fod

According to my research the Jumbo Cola bottle was the first production acl. It was one of the double barrel bottles from the Seminole Flavor Company of Chattanooga, Tenn, soon to be the Double Cola company.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Another Wow!

 All of a sudden I feel like we are turning back the pages of time. Seriously! The specifics to your bottles is stuff that isn't easily come by. I know! It takes a lot of digging to find, comprehend, and remember that kind of stuff. And I'm talking about digging with both a shovel as well as a keyboard. 

 The "WAS-COTT" bottle isn't even in the book. It must be beyond ER; "Extremely Rare."  All of them are great bottles, and I will be chewing over and digesting on them for the next week! Double-Cola good stuff!

 Thanks for bringing the past forward ...

 Bob

 small ps ... I "think" I may have one or more of Morb's bottles. There are a bunch of dust collector's in the back rows on my shelves that I'm going to take a closer look at tomorrow. Hmmm? We'll see!


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## morbious_fod

While the 1936 Was-cott may indeed be extremely rare due to the age and weakness of the acl the more modern bottles aren't all that rare. I have two of them myself. The ACL book is a decent source; however, a complete guide it is not. It doesn't even have the Banner Beverages bottle I posted in my "new to the Morbious Fod collection" or many others that I have found over time. A truly all inclusive book would be huge, and would rely heavily upon the collection pictures of many collectors, and I still doubt we would have them all, but it's a good guide.


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## Dragon0421

This is one of my tenn. bottles it is from nashville i think it is from the late 30s


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## madman

corey very nice!


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## SODAPOPBOB

morbious_fod   and   Dragon0421

 Thanks for your contributions. The following "snippet" is from my ACL book and may be of interest to you as well as others. It was written by Cecil Munsey as part of the introduction to the book. The part where he writes "The thousands of individual designs ..." highlights what morbious_fod was saying about how no one book can cover every ACL bottle ever made. Correct me if I am mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere there are like 10,000+ different ACL bottles. That's just one of the many reasons I enjoy Antique-Bottles.net so much. If you can't find it here, you likely won't find it anywhere.

 And for Dragon0421, I thought you in particular would enjoy the part where Cecil writes, ... "airplanes, whales, and trains."  I wonder if Mr. Muncey was referring to your "Big Cola" with the image of a whale on it? (By the way, your "Big Cola" bottle fully qualifies for this thread if you wish to post it).

 Thanks again to all ... and please keep the photos coming. Before you know it we'll have enough stuff to publish our own book. We'll title it ... "Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Early Applied Color Label Soda Bottles But Were Afraid To Ask."  Nah, that's too long! But I think you get the "picture."

 SPB


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## bottlingco

Here are a couple of submissions:

 Winner Beverages, Kaufman, TX 1936
 Blakes Better Club Soda, Ada, OK 1938

 Notice how often the bottles with white ACL's before 1940 tend to be more gray than white?  It seems that this is often the case, even with bottles that are in pristine condition.  After 1940, the white is more strong and brilliant.  

 Great postings!  Keep it up.


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## SODAPOPBOB

bottlingco ~

 BINGO!  Two more that aren't in "The Book." 

 Thanks for the contribution. If I didn't say this already, "We're really making progress now!" Your 1936 "Winner" bottle fits right in with the earliest of the earliest. Great bottle! Great pics!

 I just did a "quick?" search through 4,130 old soda-pop magazine ads, and of the "oldest" ACLs shown was this "Royal Crown" from 1937, (Look close and you will see the date), which confirms the date on morbious_fod's RC bottle he posted earlier. Plus, (See my next post) for a 1937 "Hires" ad.


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the 1937 "Hires" ad. (See date). I was surprised about the Hires ACL as being this old, and I may have this one too. If I'd get off the computer and dust off some of those back row bottles, I just might come up with something!

 Thanks again,

 SPB


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## bottlingco

While we are on the subject of dating bottles, double check the Brownie Club bottle.  It is my understanding that Owens-Illinois in 1945 and 1946 used two different methods before standardizing the method in 1947 of distinguishing between a 1930's bottle and a 1940's bottle.  If there is a single digit date and there is no dot after it or there is a dot before it, then it is a 1930's bottle.  If there is a single digit date with a dot after the digit it is a 1940's bottle.  Therefore a date code of 6 is a 1936 and a date code of 6. or 46. is a 1946.  Others please, if you have knowledge about this, add it.  In 1947, Owens-Illinois went to the double digit code on all of their bottles to lessen the confusion.  

 Keep up the great postings!  I am enjoying them.  bottlingco


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## SODAPOPBOB

I took the liberty of "borrowing" morb's RC image for comparison. That way we don't have to click back to page one to see it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

bottlingco ~

 I'm curious about the "Brownie Club" too. But you may recall the image I posted was from my ACL book, and not one that I (and probably not too many other collectors), own for examination. But it's a great idea, and hopefully someone out there has one to check out the "dot" reference you mentioned. The reason I posted it was because it was the oldest ACL in the book. But I'm learning now there are others from this time period (apparently lots of 'em) that I never heard of.

 Thanks,

 SPB


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## bottlingco

SODAPOPBOB:
 I'm like you in that I don't have the Brownie Club bottle to check out.  I see it a lot of the time, and it seems to me that it is a 1945, but my memory is not always as good as it used to be.  Also, the bright white ACL on it appears to be a 40's bottle.  I can almost recognize a 30's bottle setting on a shelf just by the "dull looking grayish" white ACL.  But, again, I definitely could be mistaken.  

 Others out there, let's see some of your oldest bottles.  This is fun!  Also, if you have a Brownie Club bottle, feel free to post a picture of the bottom, or tell us the date code on yours.  bottlingco


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## carling

SODAPOPBOB,

 The Hires bottle in the ad is a foil label, not an acl.

 Nice thread you started, I'll try to ad to it later.

 Rick


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## bottlingco

Just for fun, here is a comparison of the paint from a 1937 bottle on the left, and a 1938 bottle on the right.  Notice the difference between both the white and the red paint.  This often is helpful when trying to date one of those Glenshaw glass bottles where you are holding a magnifying glass up to the lip of the bottle trying to figure out what letter is stamped there.  bottlingco


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## SODAPOPBOB

carling ~

 Thanks. I've been "foiled" again. This just goes to show how much I know. (Which aint much - but - thanks to ya'all - I'm learning). Hopefully my 1937 "Tom Tucker" (that I just found in a back row collecting dust, and that I had forgotten about) will redeem me, and solidly establish me as a genuine member of the "1937 and/or before ACL club."  Whoo-hoo!  (I'm stoked! Seriously!) 

 Gracias,

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the bottom of my "Tom Tucker." Of course, the 1937 may just be a "Patent Date" which, if it is, is really going to bum me out!


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## bottlingco

Oh man!  Speaking of dating a Glenshaw Glass Co. bottle, you popped one up.  Man, do I hate trying to date those things.  Very nice bottle!  Thanks for sharing.  bottlingco


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a helpful link to the "Glenshaw Glass" marks. I'm still studying it myself. but remember, I'm the guy who is just barely smarter than a 3rd grader. But it's looking good, so far, for my "Tom Tucker" bottle. We'll see ... ???

 SPB

http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/collectorscorner/glenshaw.html


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## TJSJHART

here are three of the oldest acl's that i have first is a LIFT "41"  then a TRU-ADE dated '4?"  paint isn't the greastest , then a OLD COLONY "40". the TRU-ADE is showin the old paint chippin off. both the LIFT and OLD COLONY  neck labels are off center . i have ten other acl's that range in age from "44" to "48". lulu , cowboy, bubble up, nu-grape like madman's, arctic , red rock soda ,  husky , roof garden , mil kay , and  a barqs.


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## bottlingco

SODAPOPBOB:
 Thanks for posting the link to dating Glenshaw Glass bottles.  That is the correct dating method.  The part I hate is trying to read the letter on the lip of the bottle.  Sometimes, it is clearly stamped.  Other times it is difficult to read especially when surrounded by typical stress marks in the glass.  I have found myself using a magnifying glass, holding it up in the light, spitting on it, etc. while using "select vocabulary" to figure some of them out.  I have even resorted to rubbing over it with a pencil and paper.  bottlingco


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## SODAPOPBOB

TJSJHART ~

 Good timing ... you came along just in time to distract everyone away from my Glenshaw link. Which, I am saddened to report, gave reason for me to look for the "Letter" embossed on the lip of my "Tom Tucker." I knew it was too good to be true, as there is definitely an "R" on my bottle, which translates ... "R" = 1947

 Man alive! If not for the Glenshaw info, I never would have thought to look on the lip. I've heard of this before, but on this particular bottle I never checked for it until now. Plus, the "R" is so dang small I can just barely make it out with a magnafying glass. (Not to mention trying to photograph it). But it's there whether I like it or not! So I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Oh well ... Life goes on!

 Oh! Almost forgot ... on the oppisite side of the lip is the number "23" ... ???

 Thanks,

 SPB

 Err ... Forget the so called distraction, bottlingco just put me in the spotlight again. That's okay, I'm only a little-bit bummed out!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Err ... again!  The "R" = 1946 ... not 1947 ... so I guess that's a little better ... "NOT!" ... Lol []

 SPB


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## cyberdigger

According to this article excerpt from Feb 1939, ACL was a technique developed in "the past few years" so I think you guys are pretty close to day one of ACL's..  http://www.bottlebooks.com/ACL%201937/bottles_applied_color_labels.htm

 ..this is an interesting post, even to a collector of other bottle types!


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## mgardziella

This is from sometime in the thirties


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## Dragon0421

here is the big cola all cleaned up


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## SODAPOPBOB

You won't believe what I've been doing for the past half hour?  I live in San Diego, California, and we just had a 7.2 earthquake that was centered in Baja Mexico about 100 miles south of here. And would you believe, it comes on the day when I'm going through my bottle shelves, and in order to get to the "Tom Tucker" bottle I posted earlier, I had to take the support wires off. I was sitting at my computer when it hit, and since we get small "shakers" all the time, I figured it would go away like they usually do. But no way! This sucker lasted a good minute or more! It felt like my home was a freight train! I jumped to my feet just in time to hold my bottles in place, and since then have removed all 100 of the ones I have on display and have them laying on the floor now waiting for the next aftershock. But luckily not a single bottle was damaged. Already we've had at least a dozen aftershocks ... and they keep coming and coming. Or is it just me shaking in my boots?  Let me tell you, it's scarry stuff! It was literally the strongest quake I have ever felt!

 I'm sure you will hear about it on the news.

 Bob


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## madman

hey bob wow ! crazy! glad all is well,  heres a pix of that hires root beer


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## OsiaBoyce

L-R

 39-38-3?


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## OsiaBoyce

The 38 and a 40. See the paint difference.

 Wasn't there two or more different methods for the acl process?


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## OsiaBoyce

Another example is the 3?  I think and the 41.

 The reason I say "I think" is it's marked LGW, but no date. Like the far right Harris Spring from above.


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## madman

hey pat those red rocks are really nice !


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## bottlingco

Pat,
 I also believe the Laurens Glass Works bottles with no date are prior to 1939.  To me, the fact that most of them are dated is a small clue.  But the paint tells the story for me.  I believe both of the examples you listed as 3? are indeed late 30's bottles because of that week, dull grayish white paint.
 They just seemed to perfect that by 1940.  bottlingco


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## bottlingco

SODAPOPBOB:
 Is everything ok out there?  Post and let us know.  We want to know all of our forum friends are safe!
 bottlingco


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## T D

I did a quick scan of some I have displayed, I hope these dates are correct...


 Cleo Cola 1937 (White is faded on this one, there are examples with strong white paint) St. Louis

 Golden Age 1937.  Akron, Ohio


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## T D

1938 models

 Polar Cub.  Salem, Mass

 Uncle Sam.  Houston


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## T D

1939 models

 Lockhart.  Lockhart, Tx

 Heep Good.  Wenatchee, Wa.

 Sun Valley.  Lima, Ohio


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## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> Another example is the 3?  I think and the 41.
> 
> The reason I say "I think" is it's marked LGW, but no date. Like the far right Harris Spring from above.


 
 I'm not looking at these. Nope not looking. Crap, the green eyed monster rises. Great Red Rocks, but you're killin' me. LOL!


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## morbious_fod

Mission Beverages Quart 1939. The white while brighter still has that dark quality too it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

T D ~

 Double thanks, but "no fair" at the same time! I was only minutes away from posting my "Lockhart" Texas bottle, but you beat me to it. Plus, I was going to point out that on the "heel" of my bottle it's embossed ... 3 L G W 9 ... (1939) ... which matches what you and the book both confirm. And on the bottom it reads "Coca Cola Bottling Co". So I guess that means that I do have a "30 something" bottle after all. Even if it is the latest date to qualify as an early bottle. Which means I'm back in the "1939 or Earlier ACL Soda Bottle Club." (Thanks to you). Good job!

 Regarding earthquakes ...   (Thanks for everyones concern).

 California has earthquakes and sunshine ... That's why they call it "The Shake and Bake State." 

 But seriously, here's the real story ... 

The news said we've already had over 200 aftershocks. And they're not kidding! Seriously, it's like some kind of invisible monster lurking outside, and then suddenly it comes up and shakes your house. Typically they say you can't feel a 2.0 or less. Most of the aftershocks are under 2.0 and not felt. I'm calling it "The Great Easter Sunday Earthquake of 2010," and it was a real doozy. The best I can describe it is to say that it felt like my house was sliding downhill, with a bunch of rumbling and creaking thrown in for good measure. To give you some idea as to how intense it is ... just since I started this letter, I have felt at least "Five" good aftershocks. "No exaggeration!" It's the weirdest thing. And you won't believe this either; But at times you can actually hear it while you're feeling it. It sounds like distant thunder. Spooky-spooky stuff! But as far as I know, no major damage reported. Although I have heard that Mexicali, Mexico (With a population of appx. 2 million) is without power and phones, and authorities were waiting for reports from there. Overall, we are fine here. But if you don't hear back from me within 72 hours ... send out the Marines![/align] [/align]Thanks to all for the great photos and info. It's like turning the pages of a book.[/align] [/align]Rocked, but not Rolled ...[/align] [/align]SPB[/align] [/align]


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 They upgraded our quake from a 6.9 to an "Official 7.2" , making it the largest recorded earthquake in San Diego county history! ... and it's not "officially" over yet either!

 Bob


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## morbious_fod

Stupid me! I thought I had more. Here is a first run Tip bottle from 1938. Tip grape (which was bottled in this) was created in 1938 based upon this tiny 6oz bottle design which Grapette would also pick up.


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## morbious_fod

It's 1939 brother. Can you spot the difference? The 1938 bottle was produced before the trademark was registered.


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## morbious_fod

A 1938 Old Colony from Johnson City, Tenn. from a friend's collection.


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## morbious_fod

A 1939 amber Orange Crush from Johnson City, Tenn. yet another from the same friend.


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## morbious_fod

A 1937 Craig's Root Beer from Johnson City, Tenn. Another of Franks.


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## morbious_fod

Even though it's a 1940 it is certainly worth a mention, a Tarvers from Johnson City, Tenn. This one is mine.


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## morbious_fod

A 1939 Sun Flower Beverages bottle from the Dr. Pepper Bottling Company of Marion, VA.


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## morbious_fod

This is one unusual 7-up from Charlotte, NC. Unfortunately the red seems to have deteriorated. No date on the bottle as I recall.


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## morbious_fod

a 12oz Raleigh's Beverages bottle from West Virginia (it doesn't have a town name, but it's newer brothers did) dated 1939 (I chose the oldest date I found).


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## morbious_fod

a 12oz 1939 Arky bottle from Arkidelphia, Arkansas.  






 This one is in your book, that's where I learned about it.


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## morbious_fod

A Banner Beverages bottle from Christiansburg, Va dated 1939.


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## morbious_fod

The bottle on the left is a 1939 Tazewell Orange (no oranges on neck version), the other one is a 1943.


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## morbious_fod

A 1939 Five Points from Bluefield, Va, another of franks. 






 And that does it for me. I have some 1940 bottles; however, since we are trying to stay in the 1930's I won't bore you with those.


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## Jody35150

Can you tell me any more about this bottle?  A couple of cases of these were found in my area, specifically Hollins, Alabama.  In the same old building were some 6oz. Magic City Beverage bottles from the Barq's Bottling Co. of Birmingham,  blue & white ACL.  I wondered if there was a relationship.

 Thanks,


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## wonkapete

1935 7up


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## SODAPOPBOB

morbious_fod ~

 Great-great photos and info! Thanks ...

 Question :  Regarding the Orange Crush bottle ... Exacty how were you able to date it? I have two of my own that look almost identical, but the embossing on the bottom is unreadable except for a portion of a word that appears to be "Root." I know about the Root Bottling Company, but other than this, the numbers are blurred. Is there something specific I should look for in the blurred embossing, or are there other features about the bottle itself that will help me date it? Also, where is the name Johnson City, Tenn. located? Mine has no city/state ... unless it's part of the blurred embossing. ???

 wonkapete ~

 Thanks for the contribution. I'm really interested in learning more about your most unusual looking 7up bottle. How were you able to determine the date?  1935 would place it as one of, if not the earliest ACL seen so far in this thread. Super nice bottle, and one I have never seen.

 So unless my Orange Crush can somehow be dated as 1939 or earlier, I guess the only qualifier I have is my "Lockhart" from Texas. And since I have no bottle photos to share, I thought I would pull up this map instead. It's direct from the USGS website, and shows our recent earthquake activity. The colored indicators are self explainatory. I live in the upper portion were all the little blue squares overlap one another. They call them aftershocks, but they are like one continuious earthquake after another to me. We've already had hundreds of aftershocks, and they say before things settle down the number will be in the thousands. Check your local news or favorite website for the resulting damages in the El Centro, CA. and Mexicali, Mexico area, which are about 100 miles East of where I live. The aftershocks continue, and I have felt three while writing this. It seems they just won't go away. It's the eeriest thing I have ever experienced.

 Thanks again,

 SPB

 Please note the date and time on the map =  @  April 5, 2010 @ 8:46 AM Pacific Time.


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## mr.fred

According to the news---the aftershocks should be over by tomorrow[]-----Fred.


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## wonkapete

Hey SPB, in Bill Lockhart's history of 7up, he mentions, "Applied Color Lettering was introduced by the Owens-Illinois Glass Co. in 1934 and was quickly copied by the leading soda bottle manufacturers. The earliest, probably experimental ACL Seven-Up bottle had a white label and was made in 1935 by the Huntington, West Virginia factory of Owens-Illinois. The bottle was marked: "7 up / ALKALINE REACTION / THE GAS PURIFIES" below the "up" and a bold underline beneath it all."  

 He's describing this particular bottle.


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## huntersbottles

Hello SPB,  I am from RI and I have 2 Brownie Club soda bottles.  I am new to this forum and jsut recently became interested in collecting glass bottles.  I was wondering if you have any idea of the value of these bottles.  I have tried searching on the internet but have had no such luck.  The bottom of the bottle has "G 60" and "77-700" embossed in it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

wonkapete ~

 Thank you ... Very helpful information for myself and others ... I love specifics.

 mr.fred ~

 Thanks. I hope you're right. And it's true that aftershocks diminish with intensity over time. But according to the USGS information (which I have provided a link to) they say with a magnitude 7.2 earthquake like the one we had yesterday, aftershocks can very easily continue for "years!" But in order to feel them, they would typically have to be at least a 2.0 or greater. The dozens upon dozens that I have been feeling have been ranging in the 3.0 category, with a 5.0 occurring this morning around 4:30 AM PT that actually woke me up. Does anyone have a spare room or two for a couple of house guest? And when are you sending the helicopter to get us the heck out of here?   Lol  [sm=lol.gif]

 The only good thing to come out of this is that it forced me to take my bottles down and give them a good dusting that they've needed for over a year anyway.

 SPB

 This link takes you straight to the USGS aftershock info page.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/step/explain.php


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## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  Jody35150
> 
> Can you tell me any more about this bottle?  A couple of cases of these were found in my area, specifically Hollins, Alabama.  In the same old building were some 6oz. Magic City Beverage bottles from the Barq's Bottling Co. of Birmingham,  blue & white ACL.  I wondered if there was a relationship.
> 
> Thanks,


 
 Specifically which bottle are you referring to?


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## SODAPOPBOB

huntersbottles ~

 Thanks.

 Welcome to the club. Your ACL "Brownie Club" bottles may be some of the earliest made. Please post photos of them ... and then just kick-back and wait for the replies ... which I'm sure will be following soon. 

 SPB


----------



## morbious_fod

Usually Roots have the date around the heel of the bottle. Usually "Root      mold number   24 (date)" Since most of my bottlers weren't using Root at the time I'm not sure how they were dating in 1939. The Johnson City Orange Crush has embossing on the bottom, but it is an owens Illinois, that is also where the name it; however, if memory serves it also had the name around the diamond on the back as well.


----------



## morbious_fod

Another bear to figure out are later Chattanooga glass bottles. Early on they were similar to the roots in their embossing, but they moved to only putting a c in a circle and by the late 1930's little else. I have a Double Cola that exhibits all the call marks of an early acl, most likely 1939; however, the only embossing is the C in a circle, and the bottle patent information. Later they would have the c in  circle and some other number which were most likely some kind of code that apparently no one has cracked yet.


----------



## huntersbottles

Unfortunately I am unable to post pics of my Brownie Club Bottles.  It is saying that te picture is toolarge and I am having trouble trying to minimize it and crop it.  When I figure this outI will post.  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

huntersbottles ~

 A-OK ... We'll stand by. If you have Windows Explorer and need help, I may be able to assist you.

 And for everyone else, I want to take this opportunity to thank you a million times over for all the great pics and info.

 And back to "huntersbottles" ... as soon as "I can figure out how to do it" I intend to PRINT this entire thread to use as a resource "book" for future reference. It may be the only one of it's kind that specifically deals with 1939 and earlier ACL bottles. But don't worry, I have no intention of publishing it ... that is unless someone wants to loan me about $100,000.00, which is probably what it would take to succeed in such a project. But we need about fifty more pages first anyway, so please keep them coming.

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## bottle34nut

http://www.utah3d.net/panoramas_2/Jitterbug_swf.html

 pan down on this page and look at some of the acls


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

morbious_fod ~

 I just got back from purchasing a super-duper magnifying glass, and was able to make out some more details on my Orange Crush bottle. Now I can clearly make out the Owens Illinois symbol that is a diamond/circle embossed exactly like the one on your example. And what I thought said "Root" is something else entirely, although I can't make it out clearly. Otherwise, the only other readable numbers on the bottom are as follows ...  (But nothing on the heel or label)

 1.   A "20" on the left side of the diamond, and a "3?" on the right side of the diamond.

 2.   Plus, a "7844 - G" on the other portion of the bottom.

 I'm thinking the "44" may be a clue (1944 ?) , but I'm not sure.

 It's no big deal really, and I may be trying to make something out of nothing. I just can't stand the fact I only have one bottle that is pre-1939. I also know these amber Orange Crush bottles were used for years. So don't rack your brain over this. I'll survive!

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

bottle34nut ~ (If you are Bottle Nut # 34, I wonder what #1 thru #33 will come up with?) Good stuff!

 Thanks. Very cool ... that is once you figure out how to hold the left click button and make the room "spin" around. Is that a store or a basement?  I hope they don't have an earthquake anytime soon. Lol

 SPB


----------



## huntersbottles

Spb- Here is one.  I have another that will follow.


----------



## huntersbottles

This is the back.


----------



## huntersbottles

Here is the back


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

huntersbottles ~

 Thanks. And here is the 1935 - 1937 version of the Brownie Club bottle from my ACL book for comparison. You will see the difference. But I will leave it up to others to date. In the meantime, what numbers can you see embossed on the bottom or elsewhere on your bottle?

 SPB


----------



## huntersbottles

The bottom of the bottle has "G 60" and "77-700" embossed in it. 
 Could you tell me if you know what these mean?  Possibly from 1960?


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> morbious_fod ~
> 
> I just got back from purchasing a super-duper magnifying glass, and was able to make out some more details on my Orange Crush bottle. Now I can clearly make out the Owens Illinois symbol that is a diamond/circle embossed exactly like the one on your example. And what I thought said "Root" is something else entirely, although I can't make it out clearly. Otherwise, the only other readable numbers on the bottom are as follows ...  (But nothing on the heel or label)
> 
> 1.   A "20" on the left side of the diamond, and a "3?" on the right side of the diamond.
> 
> 2.   Plus, a "7844 - G" on the other portion of the bottom.
> 
> I'm thinking the "44" may be a clue (1944 ?) , but I'm not sure.
> 
> It's no big deal really, and I may be trying to make something out of nothing. I just can't stand the fact I only have one bottle that is pre-1939. I also know these amber Orange Crush bottles were used for years. So don't rack your brain over this. I'll survive!
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Bob


 
 the number on the left side of the symbol is the glass plant that made the bottle, the one on the right side is the date. Look for a small dot on the right side of the 3. The 44 isn't the date, it is more possible that it is a 1943, because the amber Orange Crush bottles were introduced in 1939.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

morbious_fod ~

 Thanks for bursting my bubble again!   Lol []  (Just kidding).  My Orange Crush has the 3. (dot), so I guess that means 1943, and I'm back to only one 1939 bottle again. Oh well ... you can just sell me your "Heep Good" bottle shown on page three. (My favorite one so far).  It will go real well with a couple of other 1950s "Heep Good's" that I have.

 Unless I've lost track of things, it appears that "wonkapete's" 7up bottle on page four is the earliest ACL thus far, (1935).  Not that this is a competion, it's not. I mention this only as a reminder, with the hope that other 1935/36/37 bottles will turn up. But it appears this may be a fairly tall order to fill.

 Thanks again to all,

 SPB


----------



## madman

wow awsome post killer!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

[align=left]Wonkapete's post on page 4 regarding the 1935 7up bottle got me extremely interested in reading the entire article by Bill Lockhart. So I did a search and found a link to it here on Antique-Bottles.net  It was part of a discussion on April 22, 2008. A large part of the discussion was contributed by "thesodafizz", a.k.a. Kathy  (who everyone knows but me). But rather than just post a link to the article, I thought it would be more fun to copy/paste it here for all to enjoy. I had to edit out the references to illustrations, etc., as it would only distract from the flow of the article. I hope you enjoy it.[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]Thanks wonkapete  ...  this Bud  ... er,  I mean 7up is for you![/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]SPB[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]                                               ~ * ~[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]Bill Lockhart Article :   [/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]Applied Color Lettering was introduced by the Owens-Illinois[/align][align=left]Glass Co. in 1934 and was quickly copied by the leading soda[/align][align=left]bottle manufacturers. The earliest, probably experimental ACL[/align][align=left]Seven-Up bottle had a white label and was made in 1935 by the[/align][align=left]Huntington, West Virginia factory of Owens-Illinois. The bottle[/align][align=left]was marked: â€œ7 up / ALKALINE REACTION / THE GAS[/align][align=left]PURIFIESâ€ below the â€œupâ€ and a bold underline beneath it all[/align][align=left]Apparently, the test market for the Alkaline Reaction bottle[/align][align=left]was not positive, and the company seems to have returned to a[/align][align=left]reliance on paper labels in 1936, although one amber bottle was[/align][align=left]probably made during that year. This amber bottle does not fit[/align][align=left]the typical pattern and may have just been a prototype bottle.[/align][align=left]Instead of the typical red-orange shield with a white â€œ7upâ€ and[/align][align=left]white ACL swim-suit lady and outline, this bottle had a white[/align][align=left]shield with the lady and outline in what may have been red[/align][align=left]Hopefully, I will eventually see the base of one of[/align][align=left]these and find out just what year it was made.[/align][align=left]Typically, however, the next stage began in 1937. The[/align][align=left]â€œslenderizingâ€ lady lost her word (slenderizing) and acquired a[/align][align=left]swim suit. The shield was red-orange, and everything else in[/align][align=left]ACL was white. Like the paper label, the shield contained eight[/align][align=left]bubbles. During 1938, someone noticed that _eight[/align]_[align=left]bubbles did not match well with _Seven_-up. As a result, the labels[/align][align=left]from 1938 on contained seven bubbles. With one[/align][align=left]exception, this configuration and color scheme remained in use[/align][align=left]until 1953. The exception occurred during[/align][align=left]World War II, but the exact dates have not[/align][align=left]been published that I know of. The swim[/align][align=left]suit bottle lost its red-orange shield â€“[/align][align=left]probably, sometime between 1942 and[/align][align=left]1945. The red pigment was[/align][align=left]saved for war use. With peace, the redorange[/align][align=left]shield returned. The final change we will deal with in[/align][align=left]this article involved the loss of the swimsuit[/align][align=left]lady or â€œbubble girl.â€ The new label had[/align][align=left]extra lines around the shield and the words[/align][align=left]â€œYOU LIKE IT IT LIKES YOUâ€ below. This[/align][align=left]label was in use from 1953 to at least 1968.[/align]


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> morbious_fod ~
> 
> Thanks for bursting my bubble again!   Lol []  (Just kidding).  My Orange Crush has the 3. (dot), so I guess that means 1943, and I'm back to only one 1939 bottle again. Oh well ... you can just sell me your "Heep Good" bottle shown on page three. (My favorite one so far).  It will go real well with a couple of other 1950s "Heep Good's" that I have.
> 
> Unless I've lost track of things, it appears that "wonkapete's" 7up bottle on page four is the earliest ACL thus far, (1935).  Not that this is a competion, it's not. I mention this only as a reminder, with the hope that other 1935/36/37 bottles will turn up. But it appears this may be a fairly tall order to fill.
> 
> Thanks again to all,
> 
> SPB


 
 The Heep Good isn't one of mine. LOL!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Good Morning! 

 All is well in "Earthquakeville." Still getting numerous aftershocks, but otherwise okay-ay-ay.

 Following are a few photos of my 1939 "Lockhart" Texas bottle. It's the same bottle that morbious_fod posted an image of on page three. On page 19 & 20 of my ACL book there is a brief history of the town of Lockhart, Texas, as well as some interesting information regarding the bottle itself. Part of which says ...

 "Surrounding the front label is a stylized depiction of milo, which is a grain sorghum resembling millet. It is grown extensively in the region and is primarily used as a feed grain for livestock."

 It goes on to say that Lockhart is farming country, and that it's citizens were so proud of their milo crops, they decided to include it on the labels of the town's only locally bottled soda pop. Now that's what I call the pride of the people! (Of course, Coca Cola was also bottled at the plant, but that's another story). 

 SPB

 (See next two post for additional photos).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the back side of the bottle ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And last, but not least, a closeup of the ...  3 L G W 9  (1939).  Seriously, that's a 9 on the right!

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is copy/pasted from a Microsoft Works page where I have started a file on various aspects of 1930s ACL soda bottles. That way I can add to it more easily than posting a jillion different pages on A-B.net. (And then only re-post it here as needed).

 This particular file is what I call an â€œAdvancedâ€ aspect to my 1930s ACL soda bottle thread, and will focus on the various â€œSlogansâ€ of the period. The list is incomplete, and needs updating. But this can only be achieved by members interested in participating. The so called rule I have set for myself is to only list slogans from bottles already posted on the thread, (or to be posted), as these are the ones I feel best fit the overall scheme of things. But I know that some of the slogans are on the backs of the bottles, thus, unknown to me. So what I ask of those interested, and who have the information available, is to either share the slogan online, or else send it to me via a personal e-mail for my records. I know this is a lot to ask, and I will totally understand if you choose not to participate. And to make it simple for those who do post online, I recommend doing it like the following â€¦

 1935 7up â€¦ â€œ7up - Alkaline Reaction - The Gas Purifiesâ€
 1936 Winner â€¦ â€œAlways The Bestâ€
 1936 Was-Cott â€¦ â€œSuperior Since 191?â€ < I need the last number.
 1937 Natural Set Up â€¦ â€œJust Naturally Betterâ€
 1937 Big Cola â€¦ â€œA Whale of a Good Drinkâ€
 193? Red Rock â€¦ â€œAmericaâ€™s Finestâ€
 1939 Lockhart â€¦ â€œGood and Good for Youâ€
 1939 Tazewell â€¦ â€œA Delicious Drinkâ€ 

 So if itâ€™s not too much to ask, please check the backs of the bottles not listed here, and share those wonderful slogans with the rest of us. As long as we are at it, we might as well make this the most comprehensive 1930s ACL soda bottle â€œBookâ€ on the internet. And regarding new bottle photos, please list the slogans along with your posted images. And please keep in mind, this is for 1930s ACLs only. (For those who have already posted photos, it's not necessary to re-post another image of it - but rather just the slogan itself). Thanks.

 Interesting side-note:   In compiling this list I noticed a connection between the â€œWas-Cottâ€ bottle on page one, and the â€œTazewellâ€ bottle on page four. On the label of the "Was-Cott" bottle it clearly says itâ€™s from Tazewell, Virginia. Surely this is more than coincidence. And surely the â€œTazewellâ€ bottle is also from Tazewell, Virginia. ??? 

 Thanks for allowing me to expound on this thread ... and especially for not yelling at me for what might appear as going a bit overboard.

 Sincerely, 

 SODAPOPBOB


 ã€€


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~  (Page 6)

 I apologize for this bombardment of postings, but it's better than counting aftershocks, which I have also started a list of, with three "strong" ones already occurring today. Overall there have been literally dozens upon dozens of them ... but I only record the ones I actually feel ... which typically range in the 3.0+ category.

 Anyway, I wanted to clairfy my slogan request by saying that I realize some/most of the slogans are carry-over's from earlier years during the embossed era. But that's okay, just so long as it was still being used in the 1930s. My intent is not to use the slogans for dating bottles, but rather to simply show examples of various slogans during the 1930s. Of course, some of those same slogans are still being used today ... but, (like so many of my crazy projects), "That's another story!"

 Thanks again, 

 SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

This is one quakey year so far if you ask me.. another big one just hit Indonesia an hour ago.. I can't say I've ever felt an earthquake in my life, but I don't think it would do my overactive adrenaline glands any good.. it's bad enough when my car feels funny.. but the Earth itself.. jeepers!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was granted permission by "Dragon0421" to post the following image(s) of a "Grapico" acl bottle from 1939. It's in pretty rough shape, but still a good example of what was being done in the 1930s.

 Thanks Dragon0421 ~   (The bottle can also be seen on "wonkapete's" recent Grapico thread).

 SPB

 (Back side image with slogan to follow).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the back side.

 The slogan reads ... "Made It's Way By The Way It's Made"  Is that cool or what?

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: huntersbottles
> 
> The bottom of the bottle has "G 60" and "77-700" embossed in it.
> Could you tell me if you know what these mean? Possibly from 1960?


 
 huntersbottles ~

 I was reading back through this thread and realized your question regarding the date on your "Brownie Club" was never answered. I'm "guessing" the 60 is for 1960, but I'm not entirely sure. Maybe someone else will be able to tell you more.

 Thanks again to you and everyone else who participated. I really got a kick out of all this. Plus I learned a lot about early ACLs.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The 7up labels below are for everyone to enjoy, but especially "wonkapete." It was he who inspired me to do some additional research, allowing me to discover the article by Bill Lockhart regarding the 1935 7up bottle. (Which, as it turns out, "may" be the first ACL bottle ever produced - please see photo of bottle on page 4).

 Not long after reading the article, I went online and purchased the labels shown below. All the seller knew about them was that they were original, and from the 1930s. (I received the labels in the mail today). But, as this snippet from Bill Lockhart's article points out, the label changed in ...

  [align=left]      "Typically, however, the next stage began in 1937. The â€œslenderizingâ€ lady lost her word           [/align][align=left]      (slenderizing) and acquired a swim suit."  (Full article on page 5 of this thread).[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]            Which confirms the near-mint labels I purchased online for $6.95 are pre-1937.[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]I hope nobody reminds Bob that this thread is supposed to be about ACLs, and not embossed/paper label bottles. But I just couldn't resist sharing them. And I won't tell him if you don't.[/align][align=left] [/align][align=left]SODAPOP... "Bill or Fred", anything but "Sue"  []  [/align]


----------



## madman

??????????????


----------



## madman

nice lable i need one for a squat 1937 knoxville


----------



## morbious_fod

Was-cott is 1910.


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> Interesting side-note:   In compiling this list I noticed a connection between the â€œWas-Cottâ€ bottle on page one, and the â€œTazewellâ€ bottle on page four. On the label of the "Was-Cott" bottle it clearly says itâ€™s from Tazewell, Virginia. Surely this is more than coincidence. And surely the â€œTazewellâ€ bottle is also from Tazewell, Virginia. ???
> 
> SODAPOPBOB


 
 North Tazewell, VA was the rail road hub for Tazewell, VA. The towns were once seperate; however, in 1963 the two towns became one, but both bottles are from the same plant in what is even now called North Tazewell, VA.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: madman
> 
> ??????????????


 
 madman ~ 

 I'm curious about your ???????????? bottle. Please see the photo below of the base of my "Tom Tucker" bottle that I posted on page 2 of this thread. The two bases are "identical?" You may recall that morbious_fod drew my attention to the lip of my bottle where I found a small letter "R" embossed on it. It turned out that the "R" was the Glenshaw Glass Company's code for 1946. I'm not sure exactly what all the question marks are referring to, but if you haven't done it already, you might want to check the lip of your bottle and see if there is a small letter on it. If so, this will be the date it was made. By the way, what brand is your mystery bottle? (I have the Glenshaw code list if you don't and need it).

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: madman
> 
> nice lable i need one for a squat 1937 knoxville


 
 madman ~

 P.S.

 Pardon me for being kind of "slow" these days, but I just now put two-and-two together and realized your ????????? bottle may be the squat 1937 Knoxville you are referring to. Initially I thought by "squat" you meant one of the early amber 7ups. But the photo of the base you posted doesn't look like a squat bottle. It looks slimmer, and you can see all the way to the neck. So I guess I'm still a little confused.

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S ~ P.S.

 madman ~

 Regarding the 1937 on the base of my Tom Tucker bottle ... As I just mentioned, it turned out "not" to be the date the bottle was made. And even though this was never fully addressed (Maybe morbious_fod knows) it is apparently referring to some other aspect of the bottle ... possibly the year the brand was introduced, or perhaps a patent date. And your 1937 base may be a victim of the same fate. ???????????? 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought this would be a good time and place to post the Glenshaw code information as a reference for those who don't have it readily available. It was at my finger-tips all along, but it wasn't until morbious_fod drew attention to it that I realized I had it. Thanks Morb!


----------



## madman

bob great info! my bottle is not from 1937 lol   it does not have a letter on the top so that makes it later right? and the squat bottle i was speaking of was reffering to your pix above of those paper lables for 7ups anybody got any repo lables for the squat 7up?


----------



## madman

bob the glenshaw soda bottle, is a fruit bowl soda, from houston texas, bottled in youngstown ohio, and no i didnt have the glenshaw chart , thank you very much for posting it, ive learned alot about dating acls this week. from you and morb! thanks guys!!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

madman ~

 Since the base of your "Fruit Bowl Soda" has the makers mark plus the mysterious 1937, but no actual date like a ...   5 < symbol > 7   (which indicates 1957 on the "Fruit Bowl" bottle I have in my collection) then I'll bet you a root beer there is a letter on the thickest part of the lip. I may be wrong, but take a another look at the lip ... the letter could be so small that you may have to use a magnifying glass to see it. I just learned about this myself the other day, and when I first checked for the letter, I didn't see it and was about to give up. Then I broke out my super-duper magnifying glass, and sure enough, there it was ... a capital "R" for 1946. It blew my mind when I finally saw it! Break out that mag-glass and let us know what you come up with. And if you don't have a mag-glass, just ask Morb to loan you one - I'm sure he won't mind. Lol

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

madman ~

 Find it yet? 

 I'm really asking a lot for you to see the capital letter   R   in this photo, but it's there. My camera doesn't have the closeup/focus features I need ... but if you look dead-center at the base of the lip, you'll see it.  The book shows the letters as being a little higher on the lip, but the one on mine is almost where the lip becomes the upper neck. Even knowing the  R  was there, I still had to use a mag-glass to find it again.

 Your letter may not be an  R , but some other number. Check the book from above again for details.

 Good luck, and don't give up. I still bet you a root beer that a letter of some kind is somewhere on the lip! 

 SPB

 This particular photo is the best of about 40 that I took.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

~ P.S. ~

 See that little white line about two fingers up from the bottom of the lip?  That's the very top of the R ... The  R  is about the size of a dime. Fantastic!  I knew you would see it eventually.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Where the heck is that "Fix-it/Delete" button?

 Correction ... Where I said your  R  may be some other "number," I meant some other "letter."

 Sorry about all of this ...

 SPB


----------



## morbious_fod

It disappears about five minutes after posting.


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> madman ~
> 
> Since the base of your "Fruit Bowl Soda" has the makers mark plus the mysterious 1937, but no actual date like a ...   5 < symbol > 7   (which indicates 1957 on the "Fruit Bowl" bottle I have in my collection) then I'll bet you a root beer there is a letter on the thickest part of the lip.


 
 Hold on there George. What is this symbol you are referring to between the 5&7 on your bottle? Unless it is LGW then this isn't necessarily a 1957 bottle. If it's the I inside an O or the diamond/O symbol for Owens Illinois, the number on the left is the code for the glass factory it was produced at, and the one on the right is the date, or part of the date. On some of the 1950's I inside O bottles they did shorten down the date to one number and you may very sell have a 1957. A quick check it to see if it has a retangular protruding nub near the bottom of the bottle or an indented circle or slot. The nub is usually found on late 1930's acls and 1940's. They switched to the indented slots in the 1950's.







 Nub


----------



## morbious_fod

Indented hole. 






 I'm pretty sure these were used to hold the bottle in place so that they could apply the multi layer acls properly.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

morbious_fod ~

 Thanks for coming to our rescue again. This proves what I was saying about you having a magnifying glass. I've always said, if Morb doesn't know, nobody does.

 The drawing below is the bottom of my "Fruit Bowl Soda" bottle. I couldn't find the makers mark in my files. At first I thought it was double-stamped, but the more I looked at it, the more it looks like a G over a C. ???  And the bottle does not have either of the nub/indent holes.  Below the 5384, I'm not sure if that is a 1 an L or what it is.

 Thanks,

 SODAPOPGEORGE


----------



## morbious_fod

[font="sans-serif, arial, helvetica, geneva"]"G C (entertwined angularly designed letters, vertically arranged)..........Glass Containers, Inc. (1933-1983),later Glass Containers Corporation, main office in Fullerton, CA, with several glass plant locations. Bought up the Knox Glass Company plants in 1968. This particular mark is stated to have first been used in 1945 according to Toulouse, but may in fact date from somewhat earlier. Peterson (1968:49) indicates at least one variation of the GC trademark was used beginning in 1933. Several variations of the "G C" mark exist, including one with the letters rounded (not angular), and another one with the letters touching, or nearly so."

http://www.myinsulators.com/glass-factories/bottlemarks2.html

 Well I found the glass company but no real information on dating the bottle. Maybe with this information you might be able to find something online to help you with dating this particular bottle.
 [/font]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Like I said ... You're the morb, er ... I mean "man!"

 Thanks. I intend to do some additional research, but your valuable input will suffice for the time being. As far as I'm concerned, the real focus here pertains to madman's Fruit Bowl bottle. And whether or not it has a letter on the lip. Plus I'm still wondering about that mysterious 1937, which we already know is not a date.

 Your bottle marks link didn't take, so I have taken the liberty of posting it again.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB

http://www.myinsulators.com/glass-factories/bottlemarks2.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is an update on the "THREE EARLIEST KNOWN" ( and confirmed) ACLs. (So far).

 Note:  A "HUGE THANK YOU" goes out to all who have contributed to and viewed this thread.

                      This first one is a 1936 "Winners" contributed by ... bottlingco


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next is this 1936 "Was-Cott" contributed by ... morbious_fod


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And the granddaddy, and earliest of them all is this 1935 7up contributed by ... wonkapete

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## madman

hey bob you were right ! i found it the letter x 1952 you could barely see it, thanks again for the great info!----- mike


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

madman ~

 Great! I'm glad you found it. Now you owe me a root beer! And when I say "root beer," I mean root beer "bottle."  So I'll just take anything you choose to send me ... providing it is pre-1940, and in mint condition!    Lol [] !  Totally joking, of course. Even though I was glad to help, the real kudos go to morbious_fod, as he was the one who brought to my attention in the first place.

 Thanks, Morb ... (From all of us). We don't know what we'd do without you.

 Bob & company ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

T D ~

 I hope you read this, and don't mind that I "borrowed" the photo of your "Brownie Club" bottle below. I found it in a thread you started on June 8, 2008. Maybe you just overlooked it, or already checked the date on it and determined that it was from the 1940s or later. But from the research I have done it appears that it may be as early as 1935. If so, it would tie as the earliest ACL known and posted on this thread. So far the 1935 7up posted by wonkapete is the earliest.

 I have been looking for a descent image of one since starting this thread, and am surprised I didn't look on A-B.net first.  Hopefully we will hear back from you soon telling us it is in fact a 1935 example. That would really make my day, and hopefully your's as well. 

 Thanks,

 SPB

 P.S. For some reason I have been unable to enlarge the photo as I had hoped to do. This particular one I "cropped" from an assortment of other bottles of yours from that 6-8-08 posting.


----------



## T D

Sorry so long to respond.  I doubt this bottle is old, any imput would be appreciated


----------



## T D

I doubt the paint on the 1935 bottle would be this bright.  The pic in the acl book has a thinner creature...


----------



## T D

bottom says 32 36 on the top and 60 on the bottom


----------



## T D

whole bottle


----------



## madman

1935 jumbo after watching my buddy digg about 10thousand of these broken it was nice to find this one


----------



## T D

from the book


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

T D ~

 Thanks a jillion - but I too am still trying to find out more on that early "Brownie Club" bottle. Did you notice in the ACL book where you got that one image that it list two of them? - one from 1935 - and one from 1937. I was thinking the same thing about it possibly being, or tying for the earliest. But I will be danged if I can find a photo of one, let alone anyone who owns one. If you find something before I do, please let us know. (Who knows, maybe the book is wrong ... but I kind of doubt it).

 Also I'm kind of thinking yours is a later bottle. You're right - it just doesn't look that old. And surely the 60 is for 1960 ???

 Thanks,

 Bob


----------



## T D

my assumption is that they bottled for many years with the same style label.  That is the fallacy of the book listing the dates


----------



## celerycola

If the "4' on this to the right of the OI mark means "1934" then this is my oldest acl.


----------



## celerycola

The bottle is a Dr. Reiss Celery from Brooklyn NY. I had a Dr. Reiss ginger ale I let go since I only collect Celery Soda. The label has "Since 1898" so they may have used some of the earliest crown sodas.

 Anyone have one in better condition for me?


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> If the "4' on this to the right of the OI mark means "1934" then this is my oldest acl.


 
 Nope sorry. They started using Duraglas on the bottles in 1940. That would most likely be a 1944.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

celerycola ~ morbious_fod

 Thanks to both. 

 All I can add to this is ... 

 The 3 is the glass plant number  = "Fairmount, W. Va."
 The 4 is the date = As Morb indicated = Likely 1944.
 The 1 is the mold number.

 By the way, I'm on the trail of a 1934 ACL, but no image or confirmation yet. It's kind of a "ghost" I have been chasing around.

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## celerycola

Thanks, Morb. I'll add that fact to my notes. I'm a little surprised they were making bottles in 1944 with the war going on.

 How about LGW?

 I have a Lake's Celery Jackson MS acl with LG 37 on the bottom.


----------



## morbious_fod

They were, I have several bottles from 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945. While some bottlers like Sun Rise Bottling in Tazewell va shut down for a short time due to lack of men to work the plant, most kept right on truckin. Granted there was a lot of bottle and sugar rationing and bottle caps especially were hard to get a hold of during that period.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here is another "7up" bottle from 1935. But this one is an amber brown example. There is not a great deal of information on it, other than it is from San Diego, California and is considered very rare. This particular bottle is from Cecil Muncey's website, and for anyone familar with his research and numerous articles on soda bottle collecting, there should be not doubt that Mr. Muncey thouroughly researched this bottle before associating a 1935 date with it. And likely the date is on the base of the bottle as well.

 SPB

               Thanks Cecil, you are now (as always) in the "Earliest ACL Hall of Fame." 

             Here is the link to his website that goes directly to the 7up bottle pictured here.

                                         ~ Just scroll down to item 430b ~

http://cecilmunsey.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=19&&Itemid=36


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding my last post about celerycola's bottle - it seems I can't keep track of my own thread, as Morbious_fod already answered this. My apologies. I tried to delete it but was unable to.

                                                                             ~ * ~

 However, in my continuing pursuit of the earliest ACL(s), I wish to add the following quote from a well known website. But I am a little confused if the 1933 date is referring to soda bottles or beer bottles. And even though this is primarily a soda related topic, if it turns out that beer bottles were the earliest acls, then so be it.

 I did a little research on Corona beer, and even though they started bottling in 1926, I could find no specific information as to when the actually started doing acls. But according to the following, it certainly "appears" there may be acls as early as 1933. But what and where are they? The search continues with these "ghost bottles."

 SPB

"The acl style of marking bottles was most commonly found on soda, milk, and some beer bottles made from 1933 up until today, e.g., Coronaâ„¢ beer bottles".    ???


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> If the "4' on this to the right of the OI mark means "1934" then this is my oldest acl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> celerycola ~
> 
> Please note this is not intended to derail your bottle, but in the course of my research I have discovered that the "Duraglas / Owens - Illinois, Inc." merger did not occur until 1940. Thus, this indicates that the 4 on your example is most likely 1944 or later. But still an early ACL. Thanks.
> 
> SPB
Click to expand...

 
 Actually Soda Pop the merger occurred in 1929. The trademark Duraglas was first used on bottles in 1940. Check out the link below for more info on the company and dating their bottles.

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/OwensIll_BLockhart.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 I guess it did delete - my apologies again. But now I can't delete the top paragraph of my last post. Administration ... Help! We need more edit options. Thanks.

 SODAPOPBOB

 P.S. ~ P.S.

 Thanks Morb.  This is still a learning process for me and I appreciate your expertise.


----------



## morbious_fod

We're all winging this as we go, I've just been winging it a bit longer. LOL!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODA BOTTLE HISTORY (1892 thru circa 1952) - â€œTHE MISSING LINKSâ€

 I thought this would be as good a time as any to touch on the subject as to why I am so interested (obsessed ?) with the early-early years of ACL and Crown-Top soda bottles. Many of you have likely seen my other post regarding these subjects, which are titled; â€œEarliest â€œCrown Topâ€ Soda Bottles 1892-1900â€ and â€œThree (or more) Colored ACLs.â€ Both of which, including this one, seem to have generated a good deal of interest. And yet, the more I research these topics, (along with the help from many of you that I appreciate), the more I realized there are some missing links regarding the specifics in these categories. For example; How many of us actually knew that the earliest ACLs would be a couple of 7up bottles and a few others from 1935? I certainly didnâ€™t. And it seems that some of the countryâ€™s leading researchers didnâ€™t know this either. And where are those 1933-34 examples I keep seeing references to, but are without names and faces? Are they ghost bottles, or do they actually exist? And as for the very first Crown-Tops, this is still being researched, with no definite answers in sight as yet.

 Anyway, to make a long story short, I have a little writing experience and have decided to try my hand at publishing a small book or pamphlet pertaining to these so called â€œmissing links.â€ I also have a little money set aside for this project, but whether I actually accomplish it or not still remains to be seen. At present it stands a 50-50 chance. My brother, who is assisting me, said I shouldnâ€™t even mention my intentions here, as it may entice someone else to do it first. But in response to this, I say â€œPlease go for it!â€œ (Seriously). Because the more I look into it, the more I realize it is no easy task. And if someone beats me to it, then so be it. I will be the first in line to purchase a copy.

 But before anything like this even comes close to actually seeing the light of day, there is still a great deal of research to be done first. Especially regarding the first Crown-Top soda bottles that keep eluding me. I know the answer is out there somewhere, but it may take years of research to eventually narrow it down to just a select few bottles/bottlers.

 In conclusion, I wish to thank each and every individual who has taken the time and interest to participate in these various subjects. And, as always, I welcome additional contributions and comments. Who knows, maybe one of these days we may actually know the answers to these and other as yet unanswered questions that I currently refer to as â€œMissing Links.â€

 Thanks again to all â€¦ 

 SODAPOPBOB


----------



## Nickevlau

Got to reading your thread and realized I forgot to take pics of my Massolt Bottling Co. Maybe one for a transition?


----------



## Nickevlau

Embossing at top says "REGISTERED  PATENTED PRIOF" Don't know what the last word is.


----------



## Nickevlau

Just had to show off the bottom too.


----------



## Bottle Junkie 56

Hey Ya'll. There are rare examples of ACL's that were manufactured on bottles dating to late 20's-early 30's, in other words, plain paper label type bottles were sent back to the glass company by bottlers, or glass company had new/old stock in inventory and printed ACL labels on bottles already several years old. I would imagine this probably happened prior to WWII. Not saying there are ACL bottles "printed" before 1935, just older bottles used after 1935. I'm sure You've seen ACL's printed over with another label. Same idea as what I first spoke about. Hey SPB, there's You another thread, ACL paint-overs. Hope this helps. RK


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bottle Junkie 56 ~ Thanks

 There is no question that the aspect of soda bottling history you mentioned deserves a more detailed going over, and is in itself another missing link. And speaking of links, the one below is to a recent thread that discussed this topic about a month ago, but which never really generated much interest. But you are certainly correct that no history of soda bottling would be complete without examining this area in more detail first. Any additional information or examples of these so called recycled bottles that you or others may be aware of would definitely be of interest to everyone concerned.

 Thanks again,

 SPB

 Link ...  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/ACL-SODA-BOTTLE-WITH-PAPER-LABEL/m-306242/tm.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Nickevlau ~

 Thank you for the contribution. There are so many aspects to all of this that it seems endless. And the closure you posted certainly fits into the scheme of things. Hopefully the information below will shed a little more light on the subject and will benifit everyone concerned.

 Thanks again,

 SPB




*"PRIOF" Closure/Finish*
The "PRIOF" closure is actually a finish variation for the crown cap intended to make it easier to remove the cap in that it could be "pried off" with a non-standard opener without breaking the bottle.  Paul & Parmalee (1973) describe this finish and origin quite well and are quoted below:

 [blockquote][align=left]_One of the last minor changes or variations of the crown closure was the development of the "Priof" method of bottle finish by the _Illinois Glass Company_.  The crown bottle, appearing in the early 1920s, had a projecting ledge below the lip of the crown which assisted the consumer in opening the bottle.  By using the ledge as a point of leverage, one could easily pry off the cap by using a knife, key, coin or any flat piece of metal.  One needed only to insert the lever between the ledge and the cap and twist.  Although this type of bottle finish was used sporadically through the years, it never became popular enough to dominate the market.  However, its major advertising feature was that it substantially reduced the number of broken and chipped bottles which resulted from the use of various unconventional openers._[/align][/blockquote]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Below is a reference to one of my so called "Ghost" acl soda bottles. The reason I call it a ghost bottle is because it's listed in the 1934 timeline, and yet at the same time it says "after 1934."  Which confuses me, because if it is in fact a 1935 bottle, then why didn't they just list it in the 1935 box to begin with? (No photos were included with this reference).

          "A few Painted Label Chero-Cola bottles were issued after *1934*, with a yellow label in the middle."

 I know there are some serious Chero-Cola collectors among us. But rather than mention their names, I will leave it up to individual discretions as to whether or not they would like to address this particular query. And it may very well be there are no 1934 Chero-Cola acls, but even a 1935 example would qualify as one of the earliest acls known and confirmed. I hope something turns up to shed some light on this.

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here is the only example of a Chero-Cola bottle I could find with a yellow label. But this particular example is listed as being from 1945. So whether it is the same or similar to the 1934/35 bottles previously mentioned, still remains to be determined.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I recently came across several references stating that Pepsi Cola introduced their first ACL bottle in 1934. The copy/pasted quote below is from one of the sites, and the photo w/info is from another. I realize this claim may be challenged by some, and I welome this as I am a little skeptical myself. But from everything I have been able to ascertain so far, the claim seems to have some validity. If such a bottle truly does exist, surely someone among us must have an example. I apologize for the photo, as it appears to be overexposed, but it the best and only example I could find of one of these so called (appx.) 1934 ACL Pepsi Cola bottles. (I can't make out in the photo whether or not the one on the far left says "Sparkling" -  Plus, it is a single-dot, which also confuses me somewhat). Please double-check your collections and see if you have one. Other than the photo below, everything else I found from this period has a paper label.

 Thanks,

 SPB

                                                                 {Quote}

 Painted label bottles date from 1934 and are known within the bottling business as Applied Color Labels or ACL. The Pepsi-Cola Company was the first to introduce the ACL bottle on a then unheard of 12-ounce bottle (twice the size of Coke), which they sold for a nickel. To help market the new colored label bottle, the company came up with a dandy new slogan with famous lyrics that are still remembered by many today: 

 Pepsi-Cola hits the spot
 Twelve full ounces, that's a lot
 Twice as much for a nickel, too
 Pepsi-Cola is the drink for you.


----------



## simpleman

Ive had this Chero-Cola bottle for some time. Im new to collecting & new to the forum, but saw your post about Chero-Cola with a yellow label.  Here the pic.

 embossed around the base - MIN. CONTENTS 6 FLUID OUNCES 
 embossed on the bottom - DES. PAT. 101483     NEHI BEV. CO. LOUISVILLE. KY.     3 (SYMBOL) 2.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

simpleman ~

 Welcome to A-B.net

 Your Chero-Cola bottle was made by the Owens-Illinois glass plant #3 located in Huntington, West Virginia. The 2. indicates it was made in 1942. Nice bottle. I recently purchased a similar one myself. Although not the earliest of the ACLs, it's still a nice example. Thanks for sharing.

 And for those who would like specifics on dating Owens-Illinois bottles, the link below should answer all your questions. It's a little long and detailed, but worth studying and saving for a future reference. The site also has additional information of interest.

 SPB

http://www.sha.org/research_resources/newsletter_articles/lockhart.cfm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding my recent post showing the five different Pepsi Cola bottles, (Which was put together by the "North Carolina Museum of History") I just discovered where the 2nd bottle from the left is incorrect. They indicate it as a 1890 (amber). But everyone knows that the Crown Closure wasn't invented until 1892. So now I have to place the entire collection into question. I guess it's possible they got the 1890 one mixed up with the 1900 (amber) on the far right which has a "lightning stopper?" But that too has a crown top, so I'm really not sure now what to make of it all. Other than it is more than just a little confusing. I guess even some the so called "experts" make mistakes sometimes. 

 In any event, if someone happens to have a 1934/35/36 example of an ACL Pepsi Cola bottle, I sure would like to see it. 

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Additional Note;

 I just remembered that Pepsi Cola wasn't even officially established until 1898. Prior to 1898 it was called "Brad's Drink."  So the dates must be a typo of some kind. I guess now I will have to write the North Carolina Museum of History a harshly worded letter ...   Lol   []  (Unless I'm the mixed one one here).  ???  

 SPB


----------



## bhainesinnc

I may be a little slow, but been trying to figure out what the L G W means?? Been reading the post, and looking at some acl's, have noticed this before, so maybe I need it spelled out for me


----------



## madman

laurence glass works


----------



## bhainesinnc

Thank you!!


----------



## bhainesinnc

Seriously, I get it now, I can date some of the bottles............


----------



## surfaceone

Hello Becky,

 That whole bottom of the bottle business is a completely different world. Try this:

 "L G W..................Laurens Glass Works, Laurens, SC (1910-1996). Plants also operated in Henderson, NC (opened 1957) and Ruston, LA. The Henderson and Ruston plants are now part of Saint-Gobain Containers. NOTE: In some instances certain older (pre-1900) bottles or flasks with the marking "L & W" (indicating Lorenz and Wightman) are misunderstood to read "L. G. W.", and because of an entry in Toulouse's Bottle Makers and their Marks, this mark is believed to stand for Louisville Glass Works. I do not believe Louisville Glass Works ever marked ANY items with the initials "L G W". If you have information that might show otherwise, please feel free to contact me with details." From.

 The above site is one that is very useful, in my opinion.


----------



## bhainesinnc

Trying to also find info. on SunSpot, is it a High Rock glass Co. or am I way off, I was winding down for the nite, but now I'm kind of pumped up, as I realize that out of the 7 bottles I picked up are from the early 40's...bottles all around me for the last few weeks, but can't find much info. on this  Sun-spot 12 oz. from Ralieigh, NC.....Thanks so much.. I have now been reading all about the marks from different Co,


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a little additional information to the Laurens stuff. It's especially for those like myself who didn't "get it" until just recently. I believe it was morbious_fod who first brought to my attention. 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And just for the heck of it, here's some Glenshaw information. For me the Glenshaw bottles are the hardest ones to date; and I still haven't got it all figured out yet. And be sure to have a good magnifying glass handy when dating them. You'll need it to see the microscopic letters on the lip. 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least is this on the Owens-Illinois bottles. And although there is more than meets the eye with Owens dating, (especially when you get into the dot/period after the date number), this is the basics and should suffice for now. I would say the three bottle makers just posted make up the bulk of all soda pop bottles. 

 Speaking of "now," this might be a good time to see some more of those pre-1939 acl soda bottles. Especially that 1934/35 Pepsi Cola acl that keeps eluding me. That is, if one even exist. ???

 Thanks.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops! I almost forgot page "72" with the bottling plant numbers and the dates they were in operation. (The reference above to page 76 is a misprint).

 SPB


----------



## morbious_fod

I don't think you will find any of those Soda. They were the bargain basement brand for a long time and hadn't standardized their bottles yet, so most were put out in paper labels. There are some early acls but most of those come about in the early 1940's, after the introduction of the standardized Pepsi bottle. That's the one with Pepsi embossed six times around the shoulder.

 Earliest one that is listed in Ayers' book is 1942 made for Sedalia, Mo. The Grand Pop ones are fairly early as well.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Morb ~

 Thanks again. You are a wishing well full of knowledge. Based on what you just said about the early Pepsi Cola bottles, I intend to discontinue my search for anything prior to about 1942. I wasn't finding anything anyway, except for references to them that I am now convinced were bogus. Shame on those other so called "experts." Why didn't I just ask you in the first place?  [] 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Morb ~

 Since this thread has been dregged up again, (possibly for the last time ?) I wanted to take this opportunity to officially THANK YOU for all of the helpful information and great photos you have contributed to this, and other threads. I think your new name should be "Morbipedia." Seriously, it's members like you that keep me coming back to A-B.net again, and again. Good job! Plus, this gives me a chance to test out my new buddy ... 

                                                               Meet ...

                                            "My Hat's Off To You," guy.   

                                (I hope the animotion works like it did in my test).

                                                         Thanks again,

                                                                SPB

 P.S. Bummer, it isn't working. It's supposed to move and he tips his hat on and off repeatedly. Oh well, the sincerity I mentioned is for real anyway.  []


----------



## morbious_fod

I think there is a lock on that sort of thing, but it's the thought that's the thing. I am the farthest thing from a Morbipedia. I've always had a nose for information, and knowing most of this stuff figures in the study of the bottles and other artifacts which aid in my research. If you don't know what you are looking at all the information in the world means nothing, so you have to become a jack of all trades, and master at none. No one can be a fount of all knowledge in the wide world of carbonated beverages, that person could start at birth and be dead before he uncovered a third of what is out there, because new information pops (no pun intended) up all the time. All we can do is keep abreast, of what shows up, and hope we don't end up with egg on our faces. LOL!


----------



## bhainesinnc

Thanks SPB, yea, I finally got that last nite, and it made it hard for me to wind down and go to sleep because now, I can date these........I found sites that has all the different symbols for the glass Co.'s, I'm on  a roll now!! I have Chronic fatigue syndrome, and some days my brain is just there Here is another little ? on some of my bottles there's either a little bubble that is embossed on base, and then some have the bubbles, I can't think of the word......my brain.....but the bubble goes into the bottom of the base. Thanks so much for listening to this bottle head, without a head sometimes.
 Becky


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: morbious_fod
> 
> Indented hole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure these were used to hold the bottle in place so that they could apply the multi layer acls properly.


 
 Becky ~

 This quote is from page 7, and was contributed by none other than morbious_fod. It may be the "bubble" you are referring to. Also on page 7 is the photo of a "nub" variation of this that I believe was used for the same purpose. Stuff like this is a study unto itself. It doesn't keep me awake at night, but it certainly causes me to scratch my noggin on a regular basis. I guess you know that the image on old 7up bottles is referred to as "The Bubble Girl." So you see, you are not the only one.  Lol  []  Plus this particular amber 7up bottle is one of the earliest ACLs known from around 1936.

 Thanks for your participation,

 Bob


----------



## morbious_fod

You are correct Soda, the nub was the earlier gripping point for the acl process, around 1950 or so they started phasing in the indented bubble.


----------



## bhainesinnc

Again, thanks so much, for that will also help dating some of the bottles, at least to tell me whats before or after the 50's with just a feel of a thumb. I can't even tell y'all how much this has meant to me, for I can't get out and treasure hunt anymore, but thank goodness my dad had my brother and I stash all these away in the early 70's (wonder how many we walked to the local grocery and returned??) times were tough back then..LOL Still looking for a little info.. on this 12 oz. ACL sunspot, I do know that the trademark was registered in 38, but that's about all I can find. Thanks again, y'all are keeping this country gal grinning!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

With my brother's assistance (who is a photo-merging wiz) I was able to put together this line-up of what I call "THE TOP TEN" earliest acl soda bottles. All ten bottles are scattered throughout this thread and were contributed by the members listed below. But first I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge "madman" who posted a photo of a 1935 Jumbo bottle that I failed to mention in my last summary. Although, I am still not sure how I missed it. But based on madman's post, he said he had found "thousands" of them, and that this was the only unbroken one. So I apologize to madman, and include his Jumbo bottle here in the number two slot. Of course, there were numerous other bottles posted from this 1930s time period, but in order to keep it at ten I had to eliminate some. The ones shown range from 1935 thru 1937.

 Thanks again to all members who have contributed to, and participated in this thread. It would not have been possible without your much appreciated help.

 Sincerely,

 SODAPOPBOB

 (Starting at the top - left to right).

 1.   1935 7up/green - wonkapete
 2.   1935 Jumbo - madman
 3.   1935 7up/amber - Cecil Muncey
 4.   1936 Winner - bottlingco
 5.   1936 Was-Cott - morbious_fod
 6.   1936 7up/amber/squat - Dragon0421 > Note: Somehow this "squat' image got compressed. ???
 7.   1937 Big Cola - Dragon0421
 8.   1937 Natural Set Up - bottlingco
 9.   1937 Craig's Root Beer - morbious_fod
 10. 1937 Cleo Cola - T. D.

 Let me apologize now in case I messed up somewhere. Thanks - SPB -  []


----------



## RIBottleguy

Well, I didn't think my Brownie Club Beverages was that old!  Here's mine, which must date from 1935-1937.  






 Here are two more interesting ones.  The HEP has the date (1941) on the front of the bottle (bottom left).





 Here's a "Deep Rock" from West Barrington, RI.  The bottle can be green or clear, with a red ACL.  The date on the base is either 1937 or 1947.  Mine are in storage so I had to use an old photo.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

RIBottleguy ~

 Thanks for the contribution. Where ya been all this time? We've been looking for one of those "Brownie Club" bottles since this thread got started. It would be great if you could narrow down the date. If you are uncertain how this is done, start by looking at the bottom and see what kind of bottle maker marks and numbers it has. If necessary, feel free to shoot us a photo of the base. 

 Thanks again, and we will look forward to hearing from you.

 SPB


----------



## T D

Just so somebody else won't be upset and for reference purposes, the Cleo Cola post a few posts up is not mine.  I wish


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

> ORIGINAL: T D
> 
> I did a quick scan of some I have displayed, I hope these dates are correct...
> 
> 
> Cleo Cola 1937 (White is faded on this one, there are examples with strong white paint) St. Louis
> 
> Golden Age 1937. Akron, Ohio


 
 T D ~

 Here's where I got it from page 3 of this same thread - dated 4-4-10.  Plus the following two post after that are also listed as being contributed by T D,  with a total of about seven individual bottles. Unless there are two T.Ds, then I am as confused as you are. ??? 

 SPB


----------



## T D

Sorry to say so, but no confusion on my end.  The Cleo Cola you have a picture of has a white Cleo Cola shoulder label.  Mine does not.  Your picture has a white background, mine has tile I laid with these two hands.  The Cleo you have pictured in that post is from somewhere else...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

T D ~

 My apologies. I realize my screw up now. Like many of us, I keep a ton of soda photos on file, and accidently selected one that was not yours when I did the photo merge. I have about six Cleo Colas listed, both clear and green. And except for some subtle differences like the one you mentioned, plus the belly button/no belly button variations, the green ones kind of all look alike. As it is impossible for me to go back and change it now, I hope you won't hold it against me and choose to remain on the Top Ten list. After all, you do have a Cleo, and it is somewhere in the 1937 range, and that's what really counts. Initially, I thought you meant you didn't post one at all. But now I understand you meant just not that particular one. My apologies again; it was an honest mistake. Your bottle can still be seen on page three (as well as immediately above), and just for the record I have included the photo below showing some of the variations.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

With my recent summary of the "Top Ten" earliest acls, I thought this thread was done with. But just this morning I came across a "current" e-Bay listing for what appears to be a 1935 Cleo Cola bottle. The photo below is a little blurry, but it sure looks like a "5" to me. Take a close look and see what you think. If in fact it is a 1935 bottle (and I have no real reason to doubt it) then this would change things and place a new contender for the "Earliest ACL" ever produced ... and possibly even the "First!"

 Here's the e-Bay link that shows numerous other photos. It's currently at about $35.00 ... but I expect it to sell for considerbly more. I am watching it with great interest, and may even take a "stab" at purchasing it myself if it stays under ... ? $   (Of course, now there will be 500 more people watching it ... oh well!)

 SPB

 e-Bay Link :  http://cgi.ebay.com/1935-Green-Cleo-Cola-Soda-Pop-Bottle-Cleopatra-ACL_W0QQitemZ160447771425QQcategoryZ35694QQcmdZViewItem

 Base closeup ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

That 1935 "Cleo Cola" closed on e-Bay today for $86.85.  I was prepared to pay $50.00, but happy for the seller to see it go for what, in my opinion, it's worth!  And I see no reason not to include it as one of only four known ACLs from 1935. I still believe there are some 1934's out there somewhere, but I guess only time will tell if one ever "pops" up!  Note: The e-Bay bottle is like the #217 variation from the acl book photo above.

    A "Good job!" goes out to everyone, plus my sincere "Thanks" for helping out with this thread.

                                                    SODAPOPBOB


----------



## bhainesinnc

I learned so much from this thread, Thank you SODAPOPBOB for all your time and effort, great learning tool!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

bhainesinnc ~

 You're most welcome. Thank you for the friendly reply. And if you really want the full-monty appreciation response, just come up with a 1934 ACL and you will be my new best friend! Plus you'll get one of my special gold stars like the one shown below.  Lol  []

 Thanks again ...

 Bob


----------



## bhainesinnc

I'll keep digging and picking!! LMAO!!
 Becky


----------



## splante

heres two brownie cubs I found recently..two diffrent styles one in excellant shape the other not so. having trouble finding info on the company.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Welcome to the forum. Those Brownie Clubs look old. Have you checked the bottoms for dates?

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## splante

two diffrent brownie club bottles to show, first one awesome pattern on bottle, this one has the 3236 on the bottom unfortunatley label is pretty worn out this lable is much larger then the second bottle i will be showing you in a few more pictures, bottles are both the same size


----------



## splante

back of brownie club bottle with number 3236 on bottom


----------



## splante

tries so many diffrent shots to show the 3236 on bottom but clear bottle and embossing made it very difficult


----------



## splante

second brownie club much better condition almost perfect,  notice label is smaller and pattern on bottle is diffrent on bottom


----------



## splante

bacl label of same bottle number 1568 on bottom


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Thanks for the additional photos and information. If possible could you try again to focus a photo of the entire bottom of the 3236 bottle?  You will notice the front label has the block print as opposed to the script lettering on the other example. The block lettering is the older of the two, and possibly a 1936 ... but I really need to see the entire bottom to confirm this. If it in fact turns out to be a 1936, it will qualify as one of the top ten earliest acls known. 

 Thanks so much for your contribution. I look forward to your reply.

 SPB


----------



## splante

still could not get it to show in a photo clear bottle/clear embossing, so I edited photo in paint shop and tried to trace over all the markings as best i could, notice the gab between 32   36 its not like one number 3236 same with the 5  7 theres a gap between the numbers as not to read it as 57 hope this helps


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Thanks. I know you're trying, and I appreciate it. But even without a clear photo, knowing now what it says by your outline I still don't recognize anything about the numbers. The "E" is a total mystery to me. And as much as I would like the 36 to mean 1936 ... I just can't say for sure. 

                                                                       HELP!  

                           Is anyone familar with these code numbers and able to decipher them?

                              And what do we know about the "Brownie Club" bottling history? 

                                                                 ~ Thanks ~ 

                                                              SO "DUH" POPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This snippet from page 88 of my ACL book is all I currently know about the Brownie Club bottle in question. Please be reminded this is for the "Block Lettering" version. The script label came out later. Although it only has this single listing, notice the two dates 37,35. So it is safe to assume there was also a 1936 bottle. Regarding the company history, I have found nothing so far.

 SPB

 Brand Name - Photo Number - Date - OZ. - City/State - 1993/94 Value - 1998/2001 Value/Rank(R=Rare).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And Here's photo number 144 from the same book. (If a 1935 example ever surfaces it will qualify as one of only four ACLs known from 1935).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

wonkapete ~

 This ones for you! [] As long as we are setting records straight, I thought you might be interested in this snippet from the Third Edition of the same ACL book. Notice it says that 7up's first bottle was in 1936. Thanks to your contribution we have fully established that the first 7up bottle was in 1935. So maybe one of these days (prior to the release of the Fourth Edition) you might want to contact them with photos of your 7up bottle and "re-write" the book. Who knows, maybe they will even publish your name as a major contributor. Wouldn't that be cool?

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops!  I got my images backwards ... here's the ACL book text that needs correcting.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~

 wonkapete ...

 I forgot to mention that the ACL book I keep referring to only list photos of two 7up bottles. Both of which are amber versions from 1936 and 1937 ... with the 1936 "slender" one being from San Diego, CA., and the 1937 "squat" one being from Dallas/Houston, Texas. You may be one of few, and possibly the only collector in the entire country with a green "Alkaline" example. If so, I wonder what it might be worth?

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of early 7up bottles; last Saturday I went back to the museum in Campo, CA. where they have one of the 1935 slender/amber bottles on display. They were kind enough to let me handle it this time, thus allowing me to take the following photos.

 This first photo shows the poor condition of the label. Otherwise the bottle is in great shape.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a photo of the base to confirm the date of 1935. Notice it is from "Star Beverage Co." Which I currently know very little about and need to research. This particular bottle is only one of two or three examples that I know of. In it's present condition it should be worth about $150/$200. In mint condition I expect one of these would easily go for $500.00+ ... and possibly even as much as $1000.00+ !!!  San Diego was only one of two cities to produce this "slender" variation of these very rare amber 7up bottles.

 SPB

 Additional note of interest:  The museum accepted my offer to date and categorize their collection of about 30+ soda bottles. This may be some time in comming, and I will post a new thread when I'm done.  Maybe in return they will "give" me the 7up bottle ... "NOT!"   I'm strictly a volunteer!  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of 7up ... (again) []

 I just did a fairly extensive internet search on the history of 7up and was surprised to discover that every single reference I found indicated the name 7up was first used in 1936.  Which confuses me because we clearly have at least two different bottles from 1935. Not one of the references I found detailed whether they were talking about a "Copyright" date or just a general start-up date. If 1936 is the copyright date, then it makes sense. But if it is a generic start-up date, then the record books are wrong!  Right?

 If you have further comments or a link I missed to help clairify my confusion, please post it to set my mind straight ... and the record.

 Thanks,

 SPB


----------



## morbious_fod

A quick search of the trademark brings up the certificate from Feburary 1929, as registered by the Howdy company.


----------



## morbious_fod

They didn't register for the sheild logo until 1935. 






 But notice that it says the logo was used on the products from 1928.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Morb ~

 Thanks ... that really helps. Now I'm curious to see some of that 1928 7up stuff. But don't feel obligated to post anything, as you've done your share already, plus some of what I find may be more appropriate for an entirely new thread focusing on 7up by itself. Feel free to start one yourself if you'd like. If not, I will do some preleminary research first and see what I can come up with. 

 And to show my appreciation for your many valuable contributions I would like to draw everyone's attention to a website I stumbled across recently that had your name associated with it. I'm still reading through it and thought it would also be of interest to others who may not have seen it yet.  []

 Thanks again,

 SPB

 Website Link :  http://www.bristol-tenn-va-bottles.com/index.html


----------



## wonkapete

Hey Bob, how's the writing on the back of that bottle?  Mine is a bit worn.  The bottom of mine is same as yours.


----------



## morbious_fod

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Morb ~
> 
> Thanks ... that really helps. Now I'm curious to see some of that 1928 7up stuff. But don't feel obligated to post anything, as you've done your share already, plus some of what I find may be more appropriate for an entirely new thread focusing on 7up by itself. Feel free to start one yourself if you'd like. If not, I will do some preleminary research first and see what I can come up with.
> 
> And to show my appreciation for your many valuable contributions I would like to draw everyone's attention to a website I stumbled across recently that had your name associated with it. I'm still reading through it and thought it would also be of interest to others who may not have seen it yet.  []
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> SPB
> 
> Website Link :  http://www.bristol-tenn-va-bottles.com/index.html


 
 That's actually Whiskeyman's website.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

wonkapete ~

 Wow! Your bottle and "mine" (which actually belongs to the museum) could be twin brothers. Why didn't you tell us you had a 1935 amber 7up?  Now you have two of the earliest acls known! Good job!  []

                        Here's a couple of more photos of ... "The bottle I will likely never own."

 Morb ~

 Thanks. I knew the website wasn't yours. But since your name and personal website were associated with it I thought that you may have been a contributor.  Great site in any event.

 SPB

 Front of 1935 7up bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back of bottle.


----------



## morbious_fod

Just wanted to give props to the man, the Whiskeyman!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Morb ~

 Ditto !!!  I wish someone "out west" (I guess that would be me for one [] ) would do a couple of websites on west coast bottlers like y'all back east have done. But it takes so much time and research it's boggling. Perhaps one of these days.

 SPB

 I promised my grandson Hayden I would post this photo of him at the museum in Campo where the 7up bottle is on display. He's four years old and will see this when he and his mom get home tonight after a ten day visit from Arizona. I miss them already.


----------



## morbious_fod

Start with a small area and specialize, and it will grow from there. Whiskeyman's site is basically Bristol, VA & TN. and he has researched every type of bottle in the area, and other stuff and areas have grown from that. I took a larger area, but only specialized in sodas. There are various ways to create one of these sites.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hello again ~

 I had forgotten how long it's been since this thread was started, and was surprised to discover it was April 3, 2010. How time flies. Someday it will likely be buried so deep within the archives that few will even remember it. But that's okay because it's the bottles themselves and accompanying information that matter most and hopefully will aid others in the future. Additionally; I am still convinced that 1934 acls exist and am hopeful that one or more of them will turn up someday.

 The acl bottle shown below has been in my collection for about a year and was found along an old highway near where I live. I incorrectly dated it previously, thinking it was made in 1946 when in fact it came out in 1936. This occurred because the Owens-Illinois date codes can at best be difficult to translate. But I am certain of the date now and enter it here in it's rightful place among some of the earliest acls known.

 I would also like to take this opportunity to thank everyone again who have participated in and taken an interest in this subject. Without whose invaluable contributions this thread would not exist.

                                                        Appreciatively, 

                                                        SODAPOPBOB

                                    "Perfect Host" - 1936 - 7 oz. - Yuma, Arizona


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This newest entry is from Super Member "ConsDigginVids"

 For now I only intend to post the photo, and hopefully when CDV sees this he can tell us a little more about it. I know it's from 1936 ... but not much more other than that.

           Here's the current standings regarding dates of the earliest bottles submitted thus far.

                                                          1935 = 3 entries 
                                                          1936 = 5 entries
                                                          1937 = 4 entries

                                ~  AND STILL LOOKING FOR THAT HOLY GRAIL 1934  ~

                                                            Thanks CDV.

                                                       1936 "Min-R-Ize" acl


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Another from 36. Bottled by Atlanta Bottling Works.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Osia ~

 Right on! It looks like we hit a "double" today. Can't knock that one iota!  Plus, I think I'm going to do a summarized "Part II" shortly.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB

        By the way ... Here's CDV's and OB's reward for making my D, err ... I mean "day"!   []


----------



## morbious_fod

Figured I'd post this here as well. 1938 Mil-K-Botl.


----------



## thesodafizz

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Here's a helpful link to the "Glenshaw Glass" marks. I'm still studying it myself. but remember, I'm the guy who is just barely smarter than a 3rd grader. But it's looking good, so far, for my "Tom Tucker" bottle. We'll see ... ???
> 
> SPB
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/collectorscorner/glenshaw.html


 
 I wonder whose webpage info this is....hehe


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Kathy ~

 You're busted!  Lol  []

 Thanks for stopping by. And if you happen to have a photo or any other "solid confirmation" of a 1934 acl, you will be my new best friend. The earliest we have been able to come up with so far are a few examples from 1935. But from numerous "rumors" I have stumbled upon, it clearly indicates there should be at least a few from 1934. By the way ... your Glenshaw site helped determine that my "Tom Tucker" bottle was not as early as I thought it was. Thanks a lot! I really thought I had something there for a minute ... another Lol  []

 Take care,

 SPBOB


----------



## ghosthunter

Real Ghost Bottle from RUSSIA Saint-Petersburg






 prooflink: www.ghostbottle.spb.ru  

 press yellow text to ENTER this horror site


----------



## splante

Not sure if i showed you this before but the brownie club in rough shape looks like the one you have pictured on page one of this forum  its from 35 or 36 (block letters) it is next to a brownie club from what i believe is from the 60's........hoping to find another when I go back to the spot this spring.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Thanks for sharing. I have been hoping for someone to come up with a "Brownie Club" bottle (the older one on the left) for some time now. One that can be researched hands-on (like yours) with the hope of confirming once and for all the date on the bottom. I know that 5's and 6's can sometimes be hard to differentiate, but I would really appreciate it if you could take a super-close look at it (with a magnafying glass) and see if you can definitively narrow it down to either a 5? or a 6? A clearly focused photo (if possible) of the base would be of interest to me as well. If in fact it is a 5, then it would qualify as one of the earliest acls known (1935). But don't cheat  [] / Lol.  It's not the end of the world if it turns out to be a 6. Also, please let me know if it has a maker's mark of some kind. That too would help.

 Thanks a million.

 Bob


----------



## waskey

I know this a soda thread but my friend recently dug up an ACL milk bottle dated 1934 so apparently the ACL process was being used pretty early for some companies. I can get him to post a pic some time if anyone doesn't believe me or if anyone is actually interested in seeing the early ACL bottle. The paint is only readable when the bottle is held up to the light unfortunatly.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

waskey ~

 That's totally a-okay. Bill Lockhart - Bill Lindsey - The B.R.G. - and others have also stated the first acls (1934) were on milk bottles. So you are "hot on the trail" with the best of them. Please post a photo when you can (with a photo of the base too) as I'm not sure those guys and gals actually have an example of a 1934 milk bottle yet. And if they do, I haven't seen it. Your friend's bottle "may" be the first. ???

 Thanks a million ... and please find out if the milk bottle (any condition) is for sale. I and others may be interested in purchasing it. The B.R.G. (Bottle Researchers Group) may also like to examine it (on loan to them if possible) for their records.

 Bob


----------



## splante

finally got a shot of the bottom that can be made out  of the 30's brownie club you wanted to see sodapop

 shows       32         36

           E                       1

               5                7 

 sorry the 5      7   never shows up for some reason


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Fantastic!  It looks to be a 1936. Also, does there happen to be a glass maker's mark/symbol on it? Or any other numbers or letters?

 Thanks

 SPBOB


----------



## splante

there seems like something under the 32 area but cant make it out, might be another 3 but not sure..Taking a trip tho the rhode island historical socicity and library this weekend to try to get info on Brownie Club beverage co and other RI soda companys. Will keep you posted


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks again. And unless something proves it to be otherwise, we'll consider it a 1936 acl. Which qualifies it as one of the "second" earliest acls known. Good job!  Now get out there and find a mint one! Lol  []  And while you're at it ... how'z about a 1934 acl?  I still believe a few of them exist ... maybe - possibly - who knows?

 SPBOB


----------



## splante

thats one of my goals the 1934 acl . along with finding a POPEYE bottle.......


----------



## waskey

Ill get a couple picks when my camera gets repaired. I doubt he is willing to sell the bottle considering this milk bottle is not listed or known. Even in poor condition it is a very scarce bottle. It is from the Kolb's Dairy of Baltimore, Md. The Baltimore bottle book does not list any ACL milks from this dairy.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Henry ~

 Sounds good. We will look forward to seeing your photos. I understand your not wanting to sell the bottle. But maybe if you are signed up for the secret Santa exchange this year, and you draw my name, you will give it to me all wrapped up in a Christmas stocking.  Lol  [sm=tongue.gif]  Just kidding. The photos alone and confirmation of the date will be a gift unto themselves.

 By the way, I thought it was an interesting coincidence that the bottle is from Baltimore, Maryland. Baltimore is where William Painter lived and patented the crown closure in 1892. Which leads me into another aspect of this, which is, "who" actually invented the acl process? Right at the moment no name comes to mind, but I'm sure I must have read something about that somewhere along the line. I guess I'll have to backtrack and see what I can find. It has always been the date and not the person (or persons) that seemed important. 

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## logueb

Bob,  Just found this post and found it quite interesting.  I have some acls in my collection, but have never looked to see which was the oldest.  At work, I have this Chaser bottle with what Looks to me to be a 9 without the dot on the right of the Owens Illinois logo. Underneath the logo is a 3 with a dot after, so it may be a 1943 bottle.  Would this be a 1939 Bottle or a 1943 ?   Buster


----------



## logueb

Here's the bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

logueb ~

 Thanks for the interest, and also for sharing. Based on everything I know about Owens-Illinois marks, the ...  

        3 <(I)> 9  translates to 1939. 1949 would be like this  3 <(I)> 9.  (with a dot after the 9 ) 

 As for the solo 3.  That is likely a mold number of some kind. And the 3 to the left of the symbol is a glass plant number. Which in this case would be for Fairmont, West Virginia.  Also, most of the 1940s marks would likely (but not always) have Duraglas on them. Owens-Illinois and Duraglas joined up (merged ?) around 1940.

 By the way, I just received this the other day regarding Bill Lockhart (archeologist/collector) ...
 [/font]
Bill Lockhart is currently working on the dot markings on Owens Bottle Co. beverage & condiment bottlesâ€¦hypothesizing that the number of dots equals the *month* the bottle was made.


 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## logueb

Thanks Bob.  This bottle came from a large area dump that was used in the 30's .  A lot of the sodas had perfect intact acls when I first pulled them out of the ground.  As soon as they began to dry out, the acls literally fell off the bottle.  I'll check over the weekend to see I have others from the thirties if you are interested.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Buster ~

 We are always interested in seeing "Mo Bottles"  []  Especially early ones. The "label comes off when you clean them" bottles are always a bummer. Especially after working so hard to accumulate them.

 Additionally ...

 Apparently the "multiple dots" project that Bill Lockhart is working on (if I understand it correctly) mainly involves food product bottles like ketchup, etc. And the dots are in a series around the base somewhere. It's Greek to me at the moment, and will be interesting to see what he comes up with. It sounds like some kind of "freshness code" like they have today. ???

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's an example of a Owens-Illinois/Duraglas from 1948. Notice it has the same plant number 3 ... Plus, most (if not all) of the 1940s bottles started using the double-digit date codes  3 <(I)> 48  The other numbers are still a bit of a mystery, but likely mold/tracking numbers of some kind.


----------



## the ham man

here is your oldest acl milk ever known. the date is *1934!* all the acl is rubbed off, but it would have said "eat kolbs bread" on one side and the opposite side would have said "drink kolbs milks". it has an embossed permit # on the shoulder. the date is on the bottom in the circle. it is very hard to take a picture of but you can see it very plainly with your eyes.


----------



## the ham man

*


----------



## the ham man

*


----------



## the ham man

the pics are pretty bas but its the best I could do. if you look real close you can see a 3 on the left an E in the middle, just for the company that made the bottle, and a 4 on the right. this is all in the little circle


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

the ham man / Joey ~

 Thanks a million for the photos. They actually turned out pretty good. The "E" is a little hard to make out but I can see the 3 and 4 okay. I know almost nothing about milk bottles, nor do I recognize the "E" mark ... but I trust that you do. And with this said, do you happen to know what glass maker the "E" represents?  Also, is the 34 a confirmed date code or an assumption? Please note that I am in no way attempting to cast any doubt here, it's just that to establish a solid identification it would be very much appreciated if we knew from what source the 3E4 (for 1934) was derived? I hope you don't mind this line of questioning, but I always like to make sure of things before documenting something as historical fact. I'm sure you understand.

 I am very excited about all of this, as there is nothing that would tickle me more than to be a part of what appears to be a new discovery ... thanks, of course, to you and your buddy, waskey. I'm sure he will see this, as he has my thanks and appreciation as well.

 I hope to hear back from you soon.

 Bob


----------



## waskey

The E on the base is just a mold mark used by the Thatcher Manufacturing Company. They would put different letters on the bases of their milk bottles between the date code. I have been collecting milks for a long time now so I can honestly say that this bottle is indeed a 1934 milk bottle. I have seen bottles made by Thatcher with the letter L between the date and also the letter G. I am still trying to research what the letters mean.


----------



## wonkapete

Hey Bob, here's another early ACL 7up.  1936.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

waskey ~

 Super! That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. So we will let it stand that the date is "confirmed" to be 1934. And now, if you don't mind, I would like to forward this to the Bottle Research Group and see what their reaction is. They may even has some info on the Thatcher Company that will assist you.
 It may take a little time before I hear back from then, and I will be sure to post here whatever it is they have to say. 

 Thanks again to both you and the ham man. You may very well have established acl history.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

wonkapete ~

 Fantastic! I've seen photos of that ribbed variation, but never had a confirmed date until now. I may have to revise my list of "Top Ten" earliest acls if this keeps up. Or, better yet, I think I will change it to the "Top Twenty" so as not to eliminate the generous contributions of others.

 Bob


----------



## the ham man

no problem sodapopbob. i would love to hear what the bottle reasch group has to say about this. just let me know when you hear anything.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Joey ~ Henry ... And anyone else interested.

 I just received this link from one of the Bottle Research Group members. I only scrolled through it real quick and will read it all later. You may be already be familiar with it. If not, check it out.

 Bob

 Link :  (pdf file).

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/Thatcher_BLockhart.pdf[/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Joey and Henry ~

 I just heard from Bill Lockhart and he confirmed the 1934 date to be authentic. But you already knew that, didn't you? He would like to know exactly what it says in the circle on the shoulder. Plus he said the so called circle around the 3E4 on the bottom is an "ejection" or "valve" mark where the parsion punched it out of the bottle making machine. He added that it was made in Elmira, New York.

 He also said there "should" be another mark around the outer heel of the base. He said it would be a large "T" with a smaller "c" and an "m" on either side of the "T." 

 Please let me know what you come up with so I can pass it on to Bill.

 Congratulations ... but I still don't know if this is a first, because none of the Bottle Group experts said anything one way or another about that.

 But it is definitely a first for me, and confirms that the acl process was in fact being used as early as 1934. Now all we need to do is find a 1934 "soda bottle." That's your next assignment, and I will expect to hear back from you in about a week!   Lol  []

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## the ham man

SPBOB, the circle on the neck says "health dept." in top arc, "45" in the middle and "permit" in opposite arc. what Bill says is true about the T c on the heel. that is very interesting that the bottle was made in NY. i had no idea. thanks for the info. and we will try finding that soda for you[].


----------



## logueb

Well Bob, thought that I had found you a 34' on a Nikol Cola,  But after I viewed the pic up close I see what appears to be  a tiny dot almost attached to the "O" in the "FOR"


----------



## logueb

Where is the Date on the LGW bottles.  Here's an early Dixie Dew.  When I dug this bottle from under a large  piece of cement it had an intact label.  The label actuall fell off the bottle on the way home. I think they call this one the "Cotton Boll" Dixie Dew.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

logueb ~

 Those textured / orange-peel bottles often confuse and give me headaches too. It's not always easy to tell if there is a dot or not. They can sometimes be determined by using a magnifying glass and tilting them this way and that in the light.

 The Laurens Glass Works bottles are a little easier. The image below should provide you with the answer. In this case the date code would look like this ...    3 LGW 9

 Thanks 

 SPBOB


----------



## logueb

Thanks Bob.  That would make both of these 40s.  I'll keep looking and let you know if I find anything.  Buster.


----------



## Plumbata

Excellent information here, thanks everyone!

 I just skimmed the thread so pardon me if this has already been addressed, but when were the first non-soda ACL bottles made?

 I have a local milk from 1934 that has a black ACL, albeit in terrible shape. Is it a true ACL, or a bottle made via a different painting process?

 I could'a sworn that I dug a local "Roszell's" ACL milk from 1933, but left it due to damage so I currently lack the proof.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Plumbata  ~

 Click back one page on this same thread to page 13 and you will find a discussion on a 1934 Kolb's milk bottle.  Let us know if you ever come up with a 1933 example ... even a broken shard would do.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Being as this is a "Soda Bottle" thread, I don't intend to get too involved with the milk bottle aspect of the acl process. But I felt since there is an undeniable connection between the two, that it would be appropriate to post the following as a matter record. I am sure many will find it interesting and possibly even help their understanding of the early acl process.

 Respectfully,

 Bob

                                                                    ~ *~

 Beginning in 1933 a form of silk screening was introduced to put colored labels on milk bottles.  The colored label was actually fused to the glass.  This was cheaper and faster than using the molds needed for embossed milk bottles.  It also made the labels much more prominent against the white background of the milk.  This process was called pyroglazing (pyro for short) or Applied Color Labeling.  Pyroglaze was the term used by the Thatcher Manufacturing Company of Elmira, New York.  Owens-Illinois Glass Company of Toledo, Ohio used the term Applied Color Labeling or ACL for the same process.  The Universal Glass Products Company of Parkersburg, West Virginia called the process Fire-Fused Color Lettering or Hi-Fired Color Lettering.  Liberty Glass Company of Sapulpa, Oklahoma used the term Lustro-Color for their bottles with colored lettering.

 An industry press release in May of 1933 indicated that Owens-Illinois Glass Company had developed this process at its plant in Huntington, West Virginia.  Soon after, by July of 1933, they started promoting milk bottles with fused names and trademarks in color (they did not use the term ACL at that time) in their own advertisements.  In August of 1932 they used the term "Applied Color" Bottles in their advertisements to refer to display milk bottles that had color fused to the inside of the glass bottle. Display milk bottles were internally colored white to simulate milk and a yellow color to indicate the cream.  This was done inside the bottle and used by milk dealers in their promotional displays.  One unintended use of these display milk bottles was as a way to hide liquor.  Prohibition was still in place in 1932 and these painted milk bottles did a good job of concealing their contents, especially if it was not milk.  We are not sure if coloring the insides of the bottle was the same technology as applying colored labels to the outside of the bottle but Owens-Illinois claimed that the colors were fused to the glass by intense heat.  They said the color was an integral part of the glass and permanent and indestructible except through breakage.  The first advertisement we have seen from the Thatcher Manufacturing Company for pyroglazing was in March of 1934. They used the term pyroglaze in that advertisement.


----------



## splante

sodapopbob here is a lead on a 1934 big victory chief bottle ...unfortunatly I hit a dead end already trying to find a picture


 BIG VICTORY CHIEF		1934	Clear 10 OZ ACL COLOR Red/White	PICTURE OF "VICTORY CHIEF"-Indian(P)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante  ~

 Thanks. I have not seen that one in the flesh before either. At least no solid confirmation on it. I do know it is listed on gono.com and that in the row below it is the bottle shown in the "I" column. It does say "Big Victory Chief" but other than that it is similar to a "Big Chief" I have, but mine is dated from the 1950s. So I really don't know what to think about it. Meaning I am not sure yet if it is the real deal or a misprint on the date. Please let me know if you come up with anything else on it and I will do the same.

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here is the one I have that is similar.  {Fourth from left}


----------



## splante

looks like Iam repeating some of your past research...you may have this list already
 seems like the 2 or 3 prior to 1933 may be mistakes or misdated?? just compiled the list so far and will  researching now looking for pics ect .used 1937 as cutoff date

 name 	              year	state	btl/color	oz	acl color
 HIGH ROCK            1928	MD	Lt Green 	28	Red/White
 HUESTED	             1936	CO	Clear	9	White/Red
 SNAPPY	             1930	OR	Clear	12	Red/White
 TRIPLE AAA            1933		Clear	7	Red/White
 BIG VCTRY CHIEF   1934	TN	Clear	10	Red/White
 SNOW MOON          1934	MA	Clear	12	Yellow/Black
 McCARTER'S           1935	PA	Clear	12	Orange/Black
 MEADE G	             1935	FL	Clear	8	White/Red
 OATES	             1935	WV	Green	7	Red/White
 OATES	             1935	WV	Clear	12	Blue/Cream
 ST LOUIS CRYSTAL 1935	MO	Clear	7	Blue/White
 SWEETIE	             1935	PA	Clear	64	Red/White
 NAPA VICHY           1936	CA	Clear	32	Red
 NICHOL KOLA         1936	AR	Clear	12	Red/White
 NU GRAPE	             1936	TN	Clear	6	Yellow/Blue
 SILVER STATE        1936	NV	Clear	29	Green/Pink
 YACHT CLUB          1936	RI	Clear	7+	Green/White
 KIEL	             1937	WI	Clear	7	Orange/Black
 LAKE'S	             1937		Clear	12	Red/White
 NASSAU DAY          1937	NY	Clear	7	White/Black
 OLD KERRY            1937	MA	Clear	7	Green/White
 PARFAY	             1937	OH	Clear	7	Red
 RETREAT L	             1937	CA	Clear	32	Green/White[/size]


----------



## bottlingco

The Big Victory Chief is a 1940's bottle.  The glass company is Owens-Illinois.
 Bob:  Just for the record, it is not like the Kansas one that is in your picture.  It is, however, like the Miami, OK Big Chief.  It is white with red lettering and chief, and says, Big Victory Chief, instead of Big Chief.  bottlingco


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## bottlingco

Many of the bottles below are 1940's bottles.  For example, if it is an Owens-Illinois, and it has a 4. or a 4 to the right of the symbol, it is a 1944.  Also, the Nichol Kola may have been dated by the copyright date on the front label, which is different than the actual glass production date on the bottom of the bottle.  I hope this is helpful.  bottlingco


> ORIGINAL:  splante
> 
> looks like Iam repeating some of your past research...you may have this list already
> seems like the 2 or 3 prior to 1933 may be mistakes or misdated?? just compiled the list so far and will  researching now looking for pics ect .used 1937 as cutoff date
> 
> name 	              year	state	btl/color	oz	acl color
> HIGH ROCK            1928	MD	Lt Green 	28	Red/White
> HUESTED	             1936	CO	Clear	9	White/Red
> SNAPPY	             1930	OR	Clear	12	Red/White
> TRIPLE AAA            1933		Clear	7	Red/White
> BIG VCTRY CHIEF   1934	TN	Clear	10	Red/White
> SNOW MOON          1934	MA	Clear	12	Yellow/Black
> McCARTER'S           1935	PA	Clear	12	Orange/Black
> MEADE G	             1935	FL	Clear	8	White/Red
> OATES	             1935	WV	Green	7	Red/White
> OATES	             1935	WV	Clear	12	Blue/Cream
> ST LOUIS CRYSTAL 1935	MO	Clear	7	Blue/White
> SWEETIE	             1935	PA	Clear	64	Red/White
> NAPA VICHY           1936	CA	Clear	32	Red
> NICHOL KOLA         1936	AR	Clear	12	Red/White
> NU GRAPE	             1936	TN	Clear	6	Yellow/Blue
> SILVER STATE        1936	NV	Clear	29	Green/Pink
> YACHT CLUB          1936	RI	Clear	7+	Green/White
> KIEL	             1937	WI	Clear	7	Orange/Black
> LAKE'S	             1937		Clear	12	Red/White
> NASSAU DAY          1937	NY	Clear	7	White/Black
> OLD KERRY            1937	MA	Clear	7	Green/White
> PARFAY	             1937	OH	Clear	7	Red
> RETREAT L	             1937	CA	Clear	32	Green/White[/size]


----------



## splante

thinking a 4 or any number to the right of the synbol without a period would indicate 1934 for example
 (borrowed from spbob)

 OWENS-ILLINOIS SUMMARIZATION ... (So Far) 


 1. Early Mark ... On embossed / Non Acls ... A capital "O" in a box = 1919 thru 1929 

 2. 1930s ... (example) ... 2 <(I)> 5 No Dot = 1935 

 3. 1940s ... (example ... 3 <(I)> 8. With Dot = 1948 

 4. 1950s ... (example) ... 12 <(I)> 54 Double Digit = 1954


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante and bottlingco ~

 The tricky part of trying to date bottles from a printed list is you can never be sure exactly where they are getting the dates.  I.E.  "Base Embossing"  "Copyright on Label" ... Etc.  ???

 The main reason I started the thread initially was in the hope that members would have the actual bottles they could examine personally and determine from maker's marks when they were made. Which has been very successful so far. I have scrolled through a lot of the gono.com list and some of it is confusing and drives me bonkers trying to figure out. The actual bottles are best for our purposes here. I have seen numerous indications of a 1934 "Brownie Club" acl, but so far no actual bottle has surfaced. And until one does it cannot be "confirmed" no matter what the books say about.

 Thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

 Bob


----------



## bottlingco

www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/OwensIll_BLockhart.pdf

 Here is a link that is helpful to all of us.  It is extremely important that all of the information be taken in.  If any of it is taken out of context, it leads to false or confusing information.  
 I still refer to it often, even after 37 years of collecting to make sure that I remember all of the little marks for Owens-Illinois, the plants and when they were in operation, and the year the ACL process began showing up on bottles.  
 I hope this is helpful.  
 I'm sure some of the employees were confused as well.  Possible scenario:  No, that's a 36, not a 46.  No, that's not Cola, that's creek water, get that thing back to the bottle washer on the double, before the boss sees that on the conveyer!

 bottlingco


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

bottlingco  ~

 Here is a link to a thread I started some time ago about dating bottles. It contains a lot of information contributed by myself and many others. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. Somewhere in it's contents it contains the information you just posted.

 Thanks again,

 Bob

 A-B.net Link :  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-333930/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#333930


----------



## splante

thanks again 
 this sites info is endless..compiled that list so I can keep my eyes open for these brands I too would love to see some of these early acl myself. Only been collecting for 10 months ,have a lot to learn and this site is my main source. 
 sodapopbob where have you seen the infomation on the 34 brownie club, as you know I have a few I have found we discussed before that one might be from 1936.Company info on Brownie is hard to find


----------



## msleonas

I found a RI Brownie Club bottle a few days ago. It is a larger bottle, 1 pint 12 oz.  It is clear glass with cursive writing, not the block lettering. There is writing on the front and back.  It looks like an I, L, or J under the lip of the bottle. As for the bottom there is the G in a square ( when looking at the bottom with the G upright, the G in the square is the the top), then in the center of the bottom there are 3 numbers: 901 then near the bottom of the circle there is a single 1.  
 Not sure of the dates based on the bottom. I have read this entire thread, and looked up the G symbol information, but again not sure about the other numbers on the bottom. 
 Any insight would be helpful. Thanks


----------



## waskey

I can tell you that the High Rock isn't 1928. Thats the date the company was copyrighted. They didn't start ACL bottles till the mid to late 30s. I may have an early one from them somewhere around here. Ill check.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

msleonas ~

 Thanks for the info. Based on your description, I'm confident you have a Brownie Club made by the Glenshaw Glass Co. The cursive writing examples are the later ones. With the block lettering being the earlier ones. But the real key here in dating you particular bottle is determining what the letter is on the lip. Use a good magnifying glass if necessary. Below are the Glenshaw date codes. Please let us know what you come up with. I'm assuming it will be between 1937 and 1940.

 Thanks again.

 SPB


----------



## LC

I probably should not even post this being I am not sure , but I was thinking there was a Royal Crown acl bottle that had a date of 1938 . Can anyone attest to that ?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

L C ~

 I don't have an RC bottle that early myself, but I'm pretty sure they exist. I believe a lot of their bottles are copyrighted 1936 or 1937.

 There are lots of acl soda bottles from about 1937/38 and onwards. It's the 1935 and 1936 bottles that are hardest to find. With the still elusive 1934 examples being the rarest of them all ... if they even exist. ???

 Thanks.

 SPB


----------



## LC

The copyright date sounds right as I think about it Bob , its been a while since I have seen one . Thanks for clearing up my foggy brain !


----------



## msleonas

Ok, I now have 3 Brownie Club bottles because I found 2 more today. 
 First, the original one I found a few days ago is as follows:
 Cursive writing, 1 pint 12 oz. ACl on front & back, on the bottom a G in a square, 901 in the middle and then a 2.
 On the lip I believe there is an L.


----------



## msleonas

The bottom of the cursive one:


----------



## msleonas

Sorry, here is the bottom.


----------



## msleonas

One of the Brownie Club bottles I found today is block letters, 1 pint 12 ounces, there is g in a square on the bottom, 901 in the middle and then a 2 below that. on the lip I believe there is a Q on one side and a 17 on the opposite side of the lip.


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## msleonas

another view


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## msleonas

Last picture:


----------



## msleonas

The last Brownie Club bottle I found today is an ACL, but it is a regular size bottle. The ACL is pretty worn off, but I am going to copy a picture from splante to show you the kind. I will also post a picture of the actual bottle's bottom.


----------



## msleonas

I found one like the one on the right. There is a C on the bottom and  1568.
 Here is the bottom:


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

msleonas ~

 Thanks for the forensic description and pictures. All of which are very cool and helpful. Let's focus on the "Block Lettered" bottles, as those are the earlier ones and best candodates for a 1934. If they are all Glenshaw bottles, most if not all of them should have a code letter on the lip. Please refer to the list I posted earlier where you will see that a "Q" stands for 1945. So the code date letters on the lip that we are looking for whould be a "G" for 1935, or an "H" for 1936. Anything later than these dates has already been established. 

 Thanks a million. If you do happen to find a 1934 Brownie Club acl soda bottle, you will be the first that I know of. Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.

 SPB


----------



## msleonas

Ok, thanks Sodapopbob. Either way, not sure if I will find another one where I have been digging. And just for the record, the ones I found, are they worth anything? Thanks Leona


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leona ~

 Not just Brownie Club bottles, but any acl with paint loss, unless it's rare, isn't in much demand or worth very much. A nice Brownie Club in mint condition might net $10.00, but that's about it. For me, the true worth is in the hunting, digging, and finding. Just as long as I'm finding bottles that aren't broken is enough to keep me digging and going back for more. And when you do find that special one, it makes it all worthwhile. So keep hunting. You never know what will turn up in the turn of the shovel or poke of the probe. And keep'em all (un-broken) until you learn to distinguish the keepers from the tossers. 

 As for the general values of soda bottles, e-bay (minus S&H) is as good a gage as any.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


----------



## msleonas

@SodaPopBob... []


----------



## msleonas

Should I delete (if possible) the not needed photos and postings?


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> msleonas ~
> 
> Thanks for the forensic description and pictures. All of which are very cool and helpful. Let's focus on the "Block Lettered" bottles, as those are the earlier ones and best candodates for a 1934. If they are all Glenshaw bottles, most if not all of them should have a code letter on the lip. Please refer to the list I posted earlier where you will see that a "Q" stands for 1945. So the code date letters on the lip that we are looking for whould be a "G" for 1935, or an "H" for 1936. Anything later than these dates has already been established.
> 
> Thanks a million. If you do happen to find a 1934 Brownie Club acl soda bottle, you will be the first that I know of. Thanks for all the help. I appreciate it.
> 
> SPB


----------



## cyberdigger

Only moderators can delete stuff after a 5 minute self-editing window, and unless Bob announces me otherwise, I see no need.. []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I agree - no need! This might eventually lead to someone actually finding a 1934 "Brownie Club" acl.

 Here is the handiest reference I have to the existence of a 1935 Brownie Club. It is from my acl book. I don't have the 1934 refrences at my finger tips.

 SPB

                                                    $23.00 and $9.00 ... R = Rare

              Picture Number     Date of Bottle     Size    Bottlers City   1993-1994 est.value     1998-2001 est. value


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And the accompanying picture from the acl book. Showing the label with block lettering.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Since this thread 'popped' up again, I thought this would be as good a time as any to update it a little. It is intended to help re-establish the 1934 date. It is dedicated in part to the newcomers of the hobby of collecting acl soda bottles. And, as always, I also wish to express my appreciation to everyone who contributed information and pictures in the past. I hope everyone past and present finds it to be both informative as well as fun.

 SPBOB

 Misc. quotes and links related to the 1934 date. But finding a "Brownie Club" or any other acl soda bottle from that year is a horse of an entirely different color.


In 1934, the bottling industry made first use of Applied Color Label referred to by collectors as ACL or Painted Label Soda Bottles. This baked on coloring on the face of the bottle eventually made bottle embossing and paper labels almost obsolete on glass soda bottles, and created an outstanding collectable.​Above found on link below under the heading of  "Bottle Revolution"​http://www.gono.com/can-a-pop/cc/bottle.htm​~*~​By far the majority of designer soda bottles were produced in the 1920s. The need for such elaborate design was in later decades reduced by the introduction of the ACL (Applied Color Label) bottles which had brightly colored labels that served to catch the eye of the customer.  The process was introduced in 1934. For more information on that topic see my article on Soda bottles of 1937 .​http://www.bottlebooks.com/designer%20sodas/designer_soda_bottles.htm​~*~​[/align]1934 Applied color labels first used on soft drink bottles, the coloring was baked on the face of the bottle.[/align] [/align]http://inventors.about.com/od/sstartinventions/a/soft_drink.htm[/align] [/align]                                                                       ~*~[/align] [/align]According to Paquette (1994:81) Owens-Illinois introduced Applied Color Lettering (ACL) in 1931, although other sources place the date of the practical application at 1934.[/align] [/align]http://www.sha.org/research_resources/newsletter_articles/lockhart.cfm[/align] [/align]In my opinion, this 1935 7up acl (contributed by wonkapete) is still the grandaddy of them all![/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm excited to add this "Jumbo ~ A Super Cola" as the current earliest ACL soda bottle known. It was contributed by super-member Morbious_Fod. Thanks Morb. You are a credit to the hobby. 

                   3 <(I)> 4  ~ Owens-Illinois ~ Plant No.3 Fairmont, West Virginia ~ 1934 

              I'm looking forward to the day when I can post a 1933 or earlier. If they exist?

                                                                   SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

[ Base ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

[ Newspaper Article ~ Kingsport Times News ~ West, Virginia ~ September 20, 1934 ]


----------



## splante

i will re post this list i came up with of early acls but most are not verified and seem too early

 name 	          year	state	btl/color	oz	acl color
 HIGH ROCK        1928	MD	Lt Green 	28	Red/White
 HUESTED	         1936	CO	Clear	9	White/Red
 SNAPPY	         1930	OR	Clear	12	Red/White
 TRIPLE AAA         1933		Clear	7	Red/White
 BIG VCTRY CHf   1934	TN	Clear	10	Red/White
 SNOW MOON       1934 	MA	Clear	12	Yellow/Black
 McCARTER'S        1935	PA	Clear	12	Orange/Black
 MEADE G	          1935	FL	Clear	8	White/Red
 OATES	          1935	WV	Green	7	Red/White
 OATES	          1935	WV	Clear	12	Blue/Cream
 ST LOUIS CRYS   1935	MO	Clear	7	Blue/White
 SWEETIE	          1935	PA	Clear	64	Red/White
 NAPA VICHY        1936	CA	Clear	32	Red
 NICHOL KOLA     1936	AR	Clear	12	Red/White
 NU GRAPE	         1936	TN	Clear	6	Yellow/Blue
 SILVER STATE     1936	NV	Clear	29	Green/Pink
 YACHT CLUB       1936	RI	Clear	7+	Green/White
 KIEL	          1937               WI	Clear	7	Orange/Black
 LAKE'S	         1937	               Clear	12	Red/White
 NASSAU DAY       1937	NY	Clear	7	White/Black
 OLD KERRY         1937	MA	Clear	7	Green/White
 PARFAY	          1937	OH	Clear	7	Red
 RETREAT L	         1937	CA	Clear	32	Green/White
 brownie club       1934	ri	clear	7	brown/white


 still thinking the damaged (paint )acl brownie club i have is from between 1934 and 1936,as we discussed before


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

splante ~

 Thanks for the list. It could be that many of them are early acls. The tricky part is varifying them with pictures of the bases. And speaking of bases, how'z about one of the "Brownie Club." Yoo too can be a star with a 1934! (Lol)

 Bob


----------



## RIBottleguy

I just picked up a nice early RI ACL.  It's an Alka-Time from West Barrington.  It was made by the Deep Rock Co., which I have two ACLs from that have dates of 1937 and 1938.  This one is a 1938.

 For some reason the label looks horrible.  It is faded but still very much yellow with no traces of white.





 Again a lousy shot, but a clear 8 with no dot.


----------



## splante

wow that confirms alka time exist in acl  nice find thanks for sharing


----------



## splante

that is a cool bottle and maybe very very rare..great to see it first hand
  Iam Jealous you got one first....nice find and nice meeting you today


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

RIB ~

 Cool, early acl. I never heard of that brand before. I looked in my 2002 edition ACL book and found the one pictured below. Notice it has different wording than yours. The one in the book is from Las Vegas, Nevada. It indicates at that time (2002) it was somewhat common and valued at appx. $10.00. But it does not give a date when it was made. I wonder how many different city/states produced that brand?

 Thanks again.

 SPB

 [  "Alka-Time" Label ~ Las Vegas, Nevada  ]


----------



## splante

found a little info
 Dr. Wells was developed and introduced in 1935 as a â€œpepper-styleâ€ carbonated soft drink by Ludford Fruit Products of Los Angeles, California. Ludford Fruit Products was located on S. Western Avenue in L.A., and was also the National Headquarters for Alka-Time and Hollywood Beverages. The Monarch Beverage Company of Atlanta purchased the brand in 1987. In 2007, Dr. Wells was purchased by Hedinger Brands, LLC and licensed to The Dadâ€™s Root Beer Company, LLC. The company headquarters is now located in Jasper, Indiana.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm just adding this to the list of references regarding Morb's 1934 "Jumbo Cola" acl bottle. Today was the first time I have seen this, but question where it indicates 1924 ... which might be a typo for 1934 

 http://www.doublecola.net/Double-Cola-History.html

 1924 ~ Seminole Flavor Company becomes the first company to use ACL (Applied Color Label) bottles to market their 7 1/2 oz. Jumbo Cola.


----------



## Hulingirl

Hey SodaPopBob....this one excited me cause I have one but at one time my Acl was white now it's the shadowy look where the white has peeled but bottle in good shape...? for you? The bottom of my bottle reads: CONTENTS PAT 92098 7 1/2 FL. OZ......WHATS THIS MEAN???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

HG ~

 I just now saw your post and somehow missed it earlier. The 92098 is most likely a patent number, but I'm not always sure if those numbers are for the bottle itself, the name, or just what. And because of this, they are hard to research. But most likely an early acl (painted label) bottle. Does the faded paint include the words "A Super Cola?" And are there any other numbers or symbols anywhere else on the bottle, including the lower/outer "heel?"

 Thanks.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Umm, ah ... I take back what I said about being difficult to find certain patents. In this case, the Des. abbreviation stands for ...

 "Design" Patent number 92,098

 Which, of course, we now know means the bottle itself ...

 Filed: February 23, 1934
 Approved: April 24, 1934

 Definitely a "Jumbo Cola" bottle but without the applied color label (acl). Some describe it as "Barrel" shaped.


----------



## Hulingirl

Hey Sodapopbob, it does have ACL used to be white letters but hwere the white has worn, there is still a ghostly white like shadow i gues they call it, it DOES SAY "A' SUPER COLA....SORRY forgot to put that before so this is a 1934? We are selling this one but I wanted all of the info I could get on it so when I sell it I know what im talking about...lol....so this is one of the first few acl's? Thanks BOB.....[]


----------



## Hulingirl

SodapopBob it reads: JUMBO
 "A SUPER COLA"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

HG ~

 It "might" be a 1934. Please double check the base and/or the heel. Look for anything with the number 4

 SPB


----------



## Hulingirl

unfortunatley, the heel is the only place on the bottle with a little wear but faintly i think it is a 4....ill try and take a pic and send it to you....you got good eyes.....lol on other post hwre they sent pics i couldn't see it the numbers but you could....lol


----------



## Coca Cola

I couldn't help myself, I had to post my Jumbo Cola!  1935


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

CC ~

 Thanks.

 It seems like everybody has one but me. []

 Bob


----------



## Coca Cola

I tell ya' you'll find em in the darnest places! []


----------



## Hulingirl

Awwww...~SPB~[]....we are selling ours, we are selling quite a few between his mine and our kids together there are six kis ranging from 3yrs old to 16yrs so alot to take care of too many bottles and not enough space, you could own this one....lol[]


----------



## waskey

Hey Bob, I know this isn't a soda, but I have recovered another 1934 ACL milk bottle from a different Baltimore dairy. I guess a few of the bigger Baltimore dairies were very innovative in the early to mid 30s because there were almost no dairies using ACL bottles before the late 30s, early 40s. This one is from the Biemiller Dairy. Just like the Kolb's that Joey has, you can only read the ACL label when held under a strong light, but it is certainly a cool one and I have only seen a couple 1934 milks. This one has the same circle on the neck for the permit number as the Kolb's Dairy but has a different permit number for Biemiller's Dairy. This one was made in Elmira NY just like the other too. Very interesting. Here are a few pictures. Good luck on your search for the early ACL bottles. Once again, sorry this isn't a soda, but it is certainly some early ACL history for sure!


----------



## waskey

A close up of the embossed permit number. Actually on both sides of the bottle which is unusualy because most of these bottles made by Thatcher only had the permit number on one side. Interesting.


----------



## waskey

And most importantly the date code. 1934.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

waskey ~

 Great info! Thanks a lot. Personally, I'm okay with milk bottles because all of my research and that of others like yourself give support to the findings that milk bottles were the first to receive acl labels with soda bottles coming next. I have actually heard rumors of acl milk bottles as early as 1929-1930, but have yet to see one for confirmation.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


----------



## tsalz14

Just picked up a 28oz Stone's Beverages from Torrington, CT. 99% sure it is 1936, because there is no dot next to the six. The base is also embossed with the company name along with a big 'S' on the bottom. This could be a new addition to the list!


----------



## Canadacan

I recently had a conversation with a fellow that had talked with Bill Lockhart on the phone about this whole dot thing...and your not gona like this....they used single digit date code in the 30's and 40's.
Here was part of our conversation on FB....

_I'm saying Lockhart has newer info that was not available when he did his Texas bottle experiment...per phone and emails with him.  I'm saying that  O I plants were not consistent with one another in markin and dating bottles.  I'm saying that I  spoke with a retired Streator line operator, told me point blank that the dot is a mould indicator.  Lockhart is both right, and wrong. His sample batch was too small...and too much the same.
Anomalies exist abundance and consistency is poor.
_
I guess more research need to be done on a particular bottle....we need to rely on more on advertising or even knowing when the company existed for sure, it boils down to the fact that 6 can still mean either 1936 or 1946.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ...

1.  The Owens-Illinois Glass Company was established in 1929, so a solo 6 cannot stand for 1926. It is either 1936 or 1946.

2.  Most Owens-Illinois bottles that were made in 1940 or later are marked with Duraglas, which was a hardening additive.


----------



## Canadacan

I guess seeing that the bottom has no stippling it can't possibly be from 1946?.....is it at all plausible that this bottle is though?...and has no stippling, no Duraglas logo, and no dot? 
I'm not sure what the fellow told me is 100% accurate when it comes down to the dot being a mold indicator.....Bill never addressed this in his updated article from 2015....Wish I could email and ask him if this dot thing applies to 1940's codes.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Owens-Illinois Cape Fear ACL bottle with Duraglas, stippling, single digit 5, and dot = *1945*

The G117 is the mold number


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

From a *1930* Owens-Illinois catalog w/mold numbers (Non ACLs)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a Owens-Illinois bottle with Duraglas and a double-digit 48 with the dot next to the 51.   

Note:  I gave up trying to figure out Owens-Illinois codes because there are so many variables there seems to be no rhyme or reason for them!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Taz

Thanks for sharing your bottle - I'm confident its a *1936*


----------



## Canadacan

I think the engravers did some weird things even on the years that should have dots...like forgetting to put them in is one of the major inconsistencies through out the plants, I'm sure the stories will vary from some of the former employees as well.


----------



## tsalz14

Thanks for all the knowledge to both of you. Another thing that my point to 1936 is the embossing on the base (not bottom) of the bottle. The name of the company, tj stones, is embossed in the bottle. I think as time went on, they would have stopped doing that.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because of the Spring-like weather we are having here in southern California (76' degrees), I went bottle hunting yesterday and walked a section of an old highway and found this ...

*Pippo Brand Beverages*

... acl bottle that was partially buried under some brush. When I first eyeballed it I thought it was either a 7up or a Squirt bottle but was excited to discover it was a brand I had never heard of before. And to tell you the truth, I'm not certain if its a 1936 or 1938 bottle - it depends on which way you look at the base. As you will see in the attached pictures, in one direction it appears to be ...

*8 <(I)> 6* Which would indicate Owens-Illinois - Plant 8 Glassboro, New Jersey - 1936

But in the opposite direction it appears to be ...

*9 <(I)> 8* Which would indicate Owens-Illinois - Plant 9 Streator, Illinois - 1938

But even weirder is, the mold/style code (*G 136*) is on the side and not the base. I can't recall ever seeing an Owens-Illinois bottle with the code on the side - the ones I'm familiar with are all on the base.

Notice the label has the image of a Clown, whose name I am assuming is "Pippo." The bottle came from ...

*The Gallup Mercantile Company - Gallup, New Mexico* 

... whose most sought after bottle is their "Navajo Land Beverages" bottle that I also have and will post a picture of shortly. 

I don't know a thing about the "Pippo" brand, nor have I been able to find a picture of another bottle. But I did find a "Pippo" bottle cap, that I will also post a picture of shortly.  

If anyone is familiar with this bottle, please tell us what you know about it, including its rarity and value. I have a gut feeling its extremely rare! 

Its not in the greatest shape - but that's because it was tossed from a car about 80 years ago and has been laying in the dirt!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Base and Back ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

1. Mold/Style code on the lower side - G 136

2. Bottle Cap - From Durango, Colorado - Which is about 150 miles north of Gallup, New Mexico

3. Navajo Land bottle - Mint condition and valued at about $250


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And this from ...

The Gallup Independent  ~  Gallup, New Mexico  ~  May 28, 1936  (Shows several flavors of Pippo)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Poll ...*

Cast your vote - do you think my Pippo bottle is a 1936 or a 1938? 

And if you know with 100% certainty, please explain.

Thanks


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I have found newspaper ads for the Pippo brand that range between 1934 and 1938, but nothing earlier or later than that.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

I'm doing a little research on the "Gallup Mercantile Company" and especially looking for some early pictures. All I know about it so far is that it was in operation between about 1910 and 1958. It started out as a Trading Post and apparently developed into a combination Trading Post / Tourist Souvenir Store. I'm not sure if they had a bottling facility there, but believe they must have because of the Navajo Land and Pippo bottles that are marked as such.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm also searching for "anything" that might shed some light on the *1934* reference I found regarding the Pippo brand. It would be extremely interesting to know if the bottle had a paper label, was embossed, or was possibly an ACL? If an ACL, it would tie the 1934 Jumbo Cola as the earliest! 

[Images courtesy of member Morbious_fod]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hold the phone!

I went to the newspaper archives to save the 1934 Pippo ad and stumbled onto this *1932* ad ...

(Now I'm even more curious as to what type of bottles these were)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

It just this minute dawned on me that because of the price for two bottles of Pippo in 1932 @ 25-cents an 35-cents that the ones in the ad were probably quart-sized bottles. I don't believe anyone was selling a 7 Ounce bottle of soda pop in 1932 for more than 5-cents each. I believe the typical quart bottles in 1932 were selling for about 15-cents each.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't been able to find any vintage pictures of the Gallup Mercantile Company but I did discover they had their own bottling plant at least as early as 1921. They became a Coca Cola bottler sometime during the 1940s. Neither My Pippo nor Navajo Land bottle have Coca Cola Bottling on them.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> 1. Mold/Style code on the lower side - G 136
> 
> 2. Bottle Cap - From Durango, Colorado - Which is about 150 miles north of Gallup, New Mexico
> 
> 3. Navajo Land bottle - Mint condition and valued at about $250
> 
> View attachment 169370
> 
> View attachment 169371
> 
> View attachment 169372




Speaking of the "Navajo Land" bottle, there's one currently on eBay with five days left and a high bid of $46.00. I paid $300.00 for the near-mint example I have. Check it out!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-195...482918?hash=item3f5c89ee26:g:o9IAAOSwe7BWwoOP


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just heard from the New Mexico bottle club who had this to say about my "Pippo" bottle ...

"I emailed several of the NM soda collectors who knew of Pippo ACL bottles but didn't have information on them. One had 3. There must be a void on this soda. Would you post your pics to share."

(I sent the requested pictures)


----------



## Dr Pepper bottle man

*Lazenby's Liquid Sunshine*

The Lazenby's Liquid Sunshine bottles and glasses were introduced in 1937.
The original artwork is dated 1937 also and has the outline of the state of Texas on it, and a star for Dallas where it was based.
Although I have a newspaper ad showing the date 0f 1934 from Florida.
The wooden crate has 25 slots for bottles, a super rare crate
See Pics


----------



## Dr Pepper bottle man

I have a "Emobossed" raised letter Dr Pepper bottle from Corsicanna, Texas with the same top, and was told you opened the bottle with a dime.
See pics






SODAPOPBOB said:


> Nickevlau ~
> 
> Thank you for the contribution. There are so many aspects to all of this that it seems endless. And the closure you posted certainly fits into the scheme of things. Hopefully the information below will shed a little more light on the subject and will benifit everyone concerned.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> SPB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"PRIOF" Closure/Finish*
> The "PRIOF" closure is actually a finish variation for the crown cap intended to make it easier to remove the cap in that it could be "pried off" with a non-standard opener without breaking the bottle.  Paul & Parmalee (1973) describe this finish and origin quite well and are quoted below:
> 
> [blockquote][align=left]_One of the last minor changes or variations of the crown closure was the development of the "Priof" method of bottle finish by the _Illinois Glass Company_.  The crown bottle, appearing in the early 1920s, had a projecting ledge below the lip of the crown which assisted the consumer in opening the bottle.  By using the ledge as a point of leverage, one could easily pry off the cap by using a knife, key, coin or any flat piece of metal.  One needed only to insert the lever between the ledge and the cap and twist.  Although this type of bottle finish was used sporadically through the years, it never became popular enough to dominate the market.  However, its major advertising feature was that it substantially reduced the number of broken and chipped bottles which resulted from the use of various unconventional openers._[/align][/blockquote]


----------



## tsalz14

That pippo is really cool. Nice find


----------



## SODABOB

*UPDATE ...

1933 ACL*


The following Owens-Illinois Glass Company catalog recently came to my attention and claims to be from 1933. Please read the opening statement regarding how they determined the date. I spoke on the phone with Bill Lindsey a couple of years regarding something else and he is one of if not the most proficient bottle researchers I know. If he is confident the catalog is dated 1933, then so am I. However, there are no ACL soda bottles in the catalog, but there are ACL Tumblers/Glasses. This at least tells us the ACL process was being used / experimented with as early as 1933. I consider this significant even though it does not include ACL soda bottles. 

File #19 shows lots of soda bottles, including embossed examples and generic examples that would accommodate a paper label.  

Files #23 and #24 are where the ACL Tumblers/Glasses are shown. 

Note:  I plan to research some of the more recognizable tumblers (Mickey Mouse - Donald Duck - 7up) and see if they have an Owens-Illinois mark and can be dated.  Here's the link to the catalog ... 

https://sha.org/bottle/oi1933.htm

The attached images are from the catalog ...


----------



## SODABOB

I have found a lot of the Mickey Mouse glasses but so far only one of them included anything about who might have made it or when. The attached link is to the one I'm referring to, but the description is a little vague as to where the number 33 is located on the glass.  



http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/wow-2-vintage-1930s-walt-disney-mickey-mouse


Copy/Pasted description ...

[FONT=&amp]The following information is in the "The Collector's Guide to Cartoon & Promotional Drinking Glasses"
[FONT=&amp]Mickey looking surprised with black vertical letters number 33 [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]$70.00 each


[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

Follow Up ... 

I have reason to believe the Owens-Illinois Catalog cannot be dated 1933. Open the link I posted and scroll to File #23 where you will see a Donald Duck ACL tumbler. As it turns out, nobody even heard of Donald Duck in 1933, and it wasn't until *June 9, 1934 *that he made his debut appearance in the Disney short film "The Wise Little Hen" 

Read all about it ...

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wise_Little_Hen 



(To be continued)


----------



## Canadacan

I'm not sure when 2way came out but the earliest add on a quick search was 1936, oh and the 7up glass pictured..I have that in my collection but believed it to be from the 40's-50's...unless it is older than I assumed?


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

Thanks for contributing. 

Based on various factors, I'm leaning toward the date for the Owens-Illinois catalog as being from *1936* 

Here's why I say that ... 

[ Attachments ] 

Mickey Mouse tumbler from Catalog

 

Donald Duck tumbler from Catalog



This is the earliest advertisement I can find for the tumblers.

Note:  The Mickey Mouse tumbler in this ad is identical to the one in the catalog, but the Donald Duck tumbler is different. I can't explain the two different Donald Duck tumblers, other than it might have been changed before it went into production. I have not been able to find a Donald Duck tumbler that is identical to the one pictured in the catalog. 

The Altoona Tribune ~ Altoona, Pennsylvania ~ December 21, 1936


----------



## SODABOB

*However ... 

*This 1934 Mickey Mouse tumbler could very well be an *ACL*. I can't imagine any other type of application that wouldn't come off after repeated washing's. I believe its made from white milk-glass but I haven't been able to confirm that yet ... 

Zanesville Signal ~ Zanesville, Ohio ~ June 21, *1934*


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Via the "Bottle Research Group" I sent Bill Lindsey an email regarding all of this. I will let you know what he has to say if/when I hear from him.


----------



## SODABOB

I just found this ... 

Apparently someone did make the Donald Duck tumbler pictured in the catalog. But just when I don't know because I have no confirmed date for this particular tumbler ...


----------



## SODABOB

I heard from Bill Lindsey and sent him a reply with my observations about the Owens-Illinois catalog. He was appreciative and said he might revise the date. I'm waiting to hear back from him regarding that and will let you know what he has to say. All things considered, my personal observation is that the catalog was published in either 1935 or 1936. 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODABOB

I haven't heard back from Bill Lindsey yet, and don't expect to right away, but I wanted to add this to the discussion for future reference. The Mickey Mouse tumbler in the Owens-Illinois catalog is marked *(c) W.D.*



[FONT=&amp]As a rough guide here is info regarding early Disney copyright notices.  These copyright markings can be found on every single piece of legitimate Disneyana: 
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]1930-1932: Walt Disney, Walter E. Disney, or W.E. Disney [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1932-Sept. 1939: Walt Disney Enterprises [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Sept. 1939-Feb. 1986: Walt Disney Productions [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1986-?: The Walt Disney Company [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Current copyright says: "c Disney" [/FONT]


----------



## Canadacan

Bob I don't think it's 35 or 36, personally I think latter....why?...have a look at the 2 Way glass, it has the arrows on it....the early paper labels did not use the arrows.
Patent and Trademark Office, the 2 Way trademark information was filed on October 22, 1935 by The National Nugrape Company, that makes sense then with the fact that earliest ad I could find was June 1936.....so there is no way that catalog is from 1933.
I really think it's from the early 1940's because of the arrows....but there are different slogans on them as well and I can't make out what they are on the glass.


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

I agree - there is quite a bit of confusion related to the catalog's date. As a result of the recent information I shared with Bill Lindsey, he acknowledged to me that the catalog cannot be dated 1933. He and his co-researchers are now taking a closer look at it and are supposed to get back if/when they can figure it out. I haven't fully researched the 2-Way tumbler but I did notice something I thought was both interesting and confusing. Notice on the page where the 2-Way glass is pictured where it says ... 

"Just as applied color labels have boosted bottle sales of beverages."

What I find confusing about this is that in the soda bottle section of the catalog there isn't a single ACL soda bottle pictured. And yet, we know for certain that by 1937 through 1939 there were lots of ACL soda bottles. If the catalog was published later than 1936, and possibly as late as 1939 or the early 1940s, then why does it mention ACL soda bottles in the tumbler section but not picture them in the soda bottle section? Mucho confusing! 

 

 

(I'll be back)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Another thing I noticed about the catalog page I just posted is the reference to ... 

"Libbey Safedge" 

A simple Google search will confirm that the Owens-Illinois Glass Company acquired the Libbey Glass Company 1935. But what I'm wondering is, would Owens-Illinois use the name and be able to produce Libbey Safedge glasses if Owens-Illinois had not already acquired Libbey Glass?


----------



## Canadacan

Very interesting indeed, and yes it adds some questions considering there is no ACL's in the guide. I was following up with what I could on the 2 WAY stuff...so I can now see that the glass has the arrows, top one reads ' 1-A RITZY MIXER'  and the bottom one reads ' 2- AN EXCELLENT STRAIGHT DRINK ' .....Problem is I don't know when they introduced those slogans but do know it was still in use on bottles from 1953 as I have a sample in my collection. I did found this add from 1943 that helps establish that the slogans were in use by at least 1943.

So it appears the 2 on glass follows the pattern of the front of the bottles, except it's in solid white....it's similar to the out line in red on the bottles....but on the back of these bottles there is the old style of two that matches the paper label bottle!....take note in the shape of the end of 2 above the Y, front of bottle rounded off, back of bottle flattened off and the 2 is stretched out.

It appears the two on the glass is a flattened end?...( I think), the carton on the front has the flattened ends as well on the 2's....but we can't see the ends on the bottles to see if they are flat or round, and just to note that latter 2's on cartons have rounded ends.

At this juncture because of the style of the 2 on that glass I'm led to believe it's pre 1943



2 WAY- The Honolulu Advertiser 31 July 1943


----------



## SODABOB

2-Way Trademark  

First Use Anywhere = 1935

http://www.trademarkia.com/2-way-71370667.html


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> 2-Way Trademark
> 
> First Use Anywhere = 1935
> 
> http://www.trademarkia.com/2-way-71370667.html




Yea I had stated that in my post with the paper label bottle.

 I noticed in the 1936 add I found (not posted) it refers to the 2 Way product as Lithiated...no mention of the slogans that are on the arrows though.

This is a Canadian 2 Way bottle topper in French from my personal collection, top reads 'Taste 2 Way'  below that is ' Good for you and your Guests'.....upper left 'Lost a burning thirst'
...and upper right is 'Find energy and Contentment'.........a guess at the approx. year?, 1940-45.....but this piece dose not really help establish a year on that catalog!..lol


----------



## SODABOB

Nedick's Trademark 

First Use Anywhere = 1936

https://trademarks.justia.com/713/82/nedick-71382670.html

[ Image cropped from catalog ]




[ Image from Trademark link ]


----------



## SODABOB

Bill Lindsey amended the catalog date with some information I sent him. Check it out ... 

1933*

https://sha.org/bottle/oi1933.htm


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

This one is especially for you! I don't know the dates for these items but thought they were of interest for future reference, especially the embossed 2-Way bottle ...


----------



## Canadacan

Hey yes I noticed the 2 Way bottle yesterday!...from Dr. Pepper Dallas Texas. And there is the glass...nice to see to confirm my assumptions.
I can't see that catalog being from 1934, 35... and now that you show the Nedick's trade mark first use as 1936,  I think that may be pushing it a bit?.....I would assume that what is shown in the catalog was already in production?

I'm still stuck on the 2 WAY slogans in helping to determine the year of that catalog, and I believe that design of the 2 is a second generation thing...given that the skinny 2 with the flat end was used on the paper label.
It's too bad the updated was done without consideration of the 2way and Nedick's info.....just my two ¢


----------



## SODABOB

Cc 

I sent the Nedick's information to Bill Lindsey this morning - but it was after I realized he had amended the date. I haven't heard back from him and not sure I will. We'll have to watch his webpage and see if he changes anything. As it stands now, I'm leaning toward ... 

1936 at the earliest


----------



## Canadacan

Yes Bob I concur!


----------



## SODABOB

*1932 ACL  ?
*

Important Note: 

 Because of the 1936 Nedick's Trademark I still stand by my previous statement about the Owens-Illinois catalog being "1936 at the earliest." 

*However ...

*That doesn't necessarily mean the *Libbey Glass Company* wasn't producing ACL Tumblers prior to when the Owens-Illinois Glass Company started producing them. The main reason I say this is because the term "Safedge" was trademarked by the Libbey Glass Company with a first use ever date of 1924. During the course of my research I came across that date numerous times, so I decided to take a closer look at what Libbey Glass was up to prior to 1933. I soon discovered the following advertisement, and many, many more just like it ... 

The Oakland Tribune ~ Oakland, California ~ August 11, *1932

*Notice the use of the word "decorated" in relation to the colors I underlined. I acknowledge the term ACL / Applied Color Label is not used in the ad, and yet I have to wonder what type of process they used to decorate the tumblers with various colors if it wasn't some type of annealed finish? Also notice just below the decorated tumbler part of the ad where it uses the term "etched." When I searched for "Safedge" tumbler ads earlier than 1932, every one I have found so far used the term "etched" and not decorated / color. Does this mean Libbey Glass started using a form of ACL application in 1932?  I'm not sure yet but plan to keep searching and see what I can find. 

Here's a link for the Libbey Glass Company "Safedge" Trademark - First use anywhere = 1924

http://www.trademarkia.com/safedge-71539840.html


Notice the decorations on the tumblers


----------



## SODABOB

First of all, I want to emphasize that I fully realize an ACL Tumbler is not an ACL Soda Bottle and that the earliest confirmed ACL Soda Bottle is still the 1934 Jumbo Cola that was discussed and pictured earlier in this thread. However, I'm still personally interested in the earliest use of the ACL process whether it be on a glass or a bottle or any other type of glassware. Speaking of which, its quite possible that Milk Bottles were the earliest ACLs of them all. I've definitely seen references for ACL Milk Bottles as early as 1934, but I will wait until I'm done with the Tumbler examples before taking a closer look at the Milk Bottles. Who knows, along the way I just might accidentally stumble on to a 1933 ACL soda bottle, which is something I have been looking for for years. 

Back to the Tumblers ... 

Note:  I did a reasonably through search and could not find a "color decorated" Safedge tumbler earlier than 1932. Everything I saw between about 1924 and 1931 were either clear glass, tinted color glass, etched, or adorned with a form of gold-leaf. But nothing that would fall under the description of color decorated. 

In my last post we saw a 1932 Safedge tumbler that came in red, green, or orange, with white. Now let's take a look at a couple of ads from 1933 and 1935. We've already seen an ad from 1936 which included the Mickey Mouse tumble. 

This tumbler is cropped from the Owens-Illinois catalog and can be found on the same page as the Donald Duck tumbler. The page clearly uses the term "ACL" and refers to this particular tumbler as "banded"  

Notice the stripes or "banding" 

 

Now notice the tumblers in the following two ads ... 

Also notice the word "Safedge" ... plus the reference to "colors" ... plus the use of the words "bands" and "strippings"  

The Cincinnati Enquirer ~ Ohio ~ July 13, *1933* 



The Philadelphia Inquirer ~ Pennsylvania ~ February 24, *1935

*Footnote:  

Although inclusive at this juncture, I'm leaning toward the possibility that the ACL process was used by Libbey Glass as early as *1932


*(To be continued)


----------



## SODABOB

WOW!  Look what I just found ... 

Libbey Glass / Owens-Illinois / Tumbler and Glass Catalog 

1937 

And its in color!  

Scroll to the "Beverage Glasses" page and you'll see its identical to the page where the 2-Way and Nedick's tumblers are pictured in the other catalog. It even has the same identical wording. Hmm, I better send this link to Bill Lindsey and see what he thinks. 

Check it out ... 

Notice:  

1.  The October 18, 1937 price list at the end of the catalog

2.  The punch-holes on the left side of every page - Suggesting the catalog could be older than the removable 1937 price list

http://www.libbeyhistory.com/files/1937-Premium.pdf


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Bill Lindsey's amended date included this ... 

[Copy/Pasted]

**Authors Note:  According to Toulouse (1971) *_*"Owens-Illinois became the sales agent for Libbey in the 1930s, and in 1935 absorbed the company into its own organization."*_*  This implies that O-I was selling Libbey products prior to being "absorbed" into O-I sometime in 1935.  

Given this, the company (O-I) could have been selling ACL glassware (and bottle) products as early as 1933 and certainly by 1934 when ACL products were being produced...and when Donald Duck was introduced to the public in June of that year.  This information, in hand with the Prohibition related information described earlier, points to the catalog most likely being published sometime in 1935.


*But what I'm wondering is, would Libbey Glass use the name Owens-Illinois in the catalog I just posted a link to if Libbey had not already been acquired by Owens-Illinois?  In other words, I'm thinking the use of both names in the catalog suggest the acquisition had already taken place - which was in 1935. Hence, I'm thinking the catalog dates to no earlier than 1935 and no later than 1937 - With 1937 possibly being when it was actually published because of the price list. 

Okay, fine. But if I'm right about the 1937 publication date, does that mean that the identical "Beverage Glasses" page was used in the so called 1935 catalog as well? Or is it possible *that **both catalogs were published in 1937? *


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S. 

I had a particular reason for wording my last post the way I did - That reason was to anticipate the possibility that someone might be thinking along those lines. With that said, I find it highly unlikely that either of the catalogs was *first *published in 1937 because of this ... 

1936 advertisement for the Libbey Safedge Disney tumblers

In other words, if both catalogs were *first *published in 1937, then how would it be possible for a first issue publication to include an item that was advertised in 1936? 

In other-other words, I think Bill Lindsey nailed it when he said ... 

"*This information, in hand with the Prohibition related information described earlier, points to the catalog most likely being published sometime in 1935.*"

The Altoona Tribune ~ Altoona, Pennsylvania ~ December 21, *1936*


----------



## SODABOB

In other-other-other words, I think its highly possible that *both *catalogs were published in ...



​1935


----------



## SODABOB

All things considered, member Morbious_fod's Jumbo Cola still stands as the earliest confirmed ACL Soda Bottle ... 


1934





[ Part of a newspaper article ~ Kingsport Times News ~ Kingsport, Tennessee ~ September 20, *1934* ]


----------



## SODABOB

But I'm still holding out for the possibility of an ACL Soda Bottle that was made in ... 


1933  ?


----------



## SODABOB

For future reference regarding various terms used to describe the Applied Color Label (ACL) process ...

Beginning in 1933 a form of silk screening was introduced to put colored labels on milk bottles. The colored label was actually fused to the glass. This was cheaper and faster than using the molds needed for embossed milk bottles. It also made the labels much more prominent against the white background of the milk. This process was called pyroglazing (pyro for short) or Applied Color Labeling. Pyroglaze was the term used by the Thatcher Manufacturing Company of Elmira, New York. Owens-Illinois Glass Company of Toledo, Ohio used the term Applied Color Labeling or ACL for the same process. The Universal Glass Products Company of Parkersburg, West Virginia called the process Fire-Fused Color Lettering or Hi-Fired Color Lettering. Liberty Glass Company of Sapulpa, Oklahoma used the term Lustro-Color for their bottles with colored lettering. 

An industry press release in May of 1933 indicated that Owens-Illinois Glass Company had developed this process at its plant in Huntington, West Virginia. Soon after, by July of 1933, they started promoting milk bottles with fused names and trademarks in color (they did not use the term ACL at that time) in their own advertisements. In August of 1932 they used the term "Applied Color" Bottles in their advertisements to refer to display milk bottles that had color fused to the inside of the glass bottle. Display milk bottles were internally colored white to simulate milk and a yellow color to indicate the cream. This was done inside the bottle and used by milk dealers in their promotional displays. One unintended use of these display milk bottles was as a way to hide liquor. Prohibition was still in place in 1932 and these painted milk bottles did a good job of concealing their contents, especially if it was not milk. We are not sure if coloring the insides of the bottle was the same technology as applying colored labels to the outside of the bottle but Owens-Illinois claimed that the colors were fused to the glass by intense heat. They said the color was an integral part of the glass and permanent and indestructible except through breakage. The first advertisement we have seen from the Thatcher Manufacturing Company for pyroglazing was in March of 1934. They used the term pyroglaze in that advertisement.


----------



## SODABOB

In Search of ... 

1934 or Earlier Painted Label Milk Bottles

( Pyroglaze was the term used by the Thatcher Manufacturing Company of Elmira, New York )

The Pentagraph ~ Bloomington, Illinois ~ May 12, *1934* 



I don't know when this particular Leman's milk bottle was made, nor who made it, nor if the number 3 on the base is a date code, but because of the 1934 newspaper article, its highly likely that 1934 Leman's pyroglaze milk bottles exist.


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## SODABOB

*Based on some additional research I did, including Trademark dates, Newspaper dates, Etc; I am revising my earlier observations regarding the publication dates for the two catalogs in question; namely the Owens-Illinois catalog and the Libbey Glass catalog. I no longer believe that either of those catalogs was published in 1935. Even though I won't be including the numerous pieces of evidence I recently came across that influenced this change of opinion, suffice it to say that I am now of the opinion that both catalogs were published in ...  

​1936 *








SODABOB said:


> P.S. ~ P.S.
> 
> I had a particular reason for wording my last post the way I did - That reason was to anticipate the possibility that someone might be thinking along those lines. With that said, I find it highly unlikely that either of the catalogs was *first *published in 1937 because of this ...
> 
> 1936 advertisement for the Libbey Safedge Disney tumblers
> 
> In other words, if both catalogs were *first *published in 1937, then how would it be possible for a first issue publication to include an item that was advertised in 1936?
> 
> In other-other words, I think Bill Lindsey nailed it when he said ...
> 
> "*This information, in hand with the Prohibition related information described earlier, points to the catalog most likely being published sometime in 1935.*"
> 
> The Altoona Tribune ~ Altoona, Pennsylvania ~ December 21, *1936*
> 
> 
> View attachment 177669
> 
> View attachment 177670


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## SODABOB

Update ...

I sent Bill Lindsey the link to the Libbey catalog and he is going to add it to his website. He said even though it isn't directly related to bottles, which is what the site focuses on, its close enough for general interest. He didn't say what year he thinks it was published, but I suspect he's going to place it in the same range as the other catalog of 1935-1936.  

Here are both catalog links together for future reference ... 


Owens-Illinois Bottles Catalog / 1933* 1935/1936 ?

https://sha.org/bottle/oi1933.htm

Note: Bill said its too complicated to eliminate the 1933* from the title, so he is going to leave it that way even though he is confident it was published in either 1935 or 1936


Libbey / Owens-Illinois Glassware Catalog / 1936 ?

http://www.libbeyhistory.com/files/1937-Premium.pdf


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## SODABOB

Bill Lindsey changed his amended footnote from this ...

*"This information, in hand with the Prohibition related information described earlier, points to the catalog most likely being published sometime in 1935."*


To this ... 

*"This information, in hand with the Prohibition related information described earlier, points to the catalog most likely being published sometime in 1935 and possibly 1936.  Thanks Bob!" 






*


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## Canadacan

And yet it could be 1937, the price list was from Oct. 1937 right?, does that mean the catalog was possibly used for most of 1938 as well? Not that it really matters anyways.


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## sunrunner

by 1939 , pyro glaze was hitting it's hay day.


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