# Oldest ACL Royal Crown Cola Bottle?



## dbv1919

Hey, just a question, has anyone ever saw an RC bottle ACL older than a 1936? From the left 1936, 1937, 1937 debossed and 1938 and 1938 embossed. Thanks, Brad


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## morbious_fod

Can't say that I have.


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## dbv1919

I keep looking for a 1935, but not sure there is such a thing.


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## ACLbottles

Nice RCs, I don't have a nice early one.


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## M.C.Glass

I have 3 different ones that are all 1937.I see you like em full, eh? You should bring that '36 out and take some close shots of it including the top and bottom. It could be a pretty rare bird. Do you have any paper label RCs?


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## ACLbottles

I can't seem to find a clear ACL RC at all online, that's a very cool bottle.


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## dbv1919

Thanks ACLbottles There is a nice one on ebay right now if I remember its a 1937. MCglass been looking for that 1936 for 20 years found it a few years ago. I don't have any paper labels only acl's and I like the full ones. I'll get some more pics someday I'm terrible with posting pics got one of my kids to do it, like pulling teeth old man uncool. lol


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## dbv1919

Sorry AClbottles looks like a 38 to me.


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## lblackvelvet

Nice collection dvb..   I checked my RC's and found that I have two 1936 bottles from Va.  One bottle is clear in color from Lynchburg Va.  The other bottle is lite blue in color from Blackstone Va.  Both in excellent shape, but empty......


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## dbv1919

Thanks Iblackvelvet,  I would love to see a pic of those 36's


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## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919

Thanks for sharing your superb collection of RC bottles!

 Based on everything I've read about Royal Crown *Cola* ...

1.  It was first introduced and test marketed in 1934
2.  But not available to the general public until 1935
3.  The limited 1934 and 1935 bottles had paper labels
4.  The first acl/painted label bottle was introduced in 1936

I did a fairly extensive search and could not find a single picture of a 1934 or 1935 bottle. The earliest picture I could find was of a 1936 bottle which had a paper label. Starting in 1937, pictures of acl bottles are relatively abundant.

As you already know, your 1936 Royal Crown Cola acl bottle is indeed a rare bird. There doesn't appear to have been a 1935 acl.

The attachments are as follows ...

1.  Newspaper Ad ~ The Evening Sun ~ Hanover, Pennsylvania ~ October 8, 1936

This is the earliest advertisement I could find that included an image of a bottle which, in this case, has a paper label. Notice the neck label is placed "on top" of the neck debossment, which strikes me as odd.  

2.  Your 1936 acl for comparison

3.  Newspaper Ad ~ Harrisburg Telegraph ~ Harrisburg, Pennsylvania ~ June 9, 1937

The acls are easily distinguishable from the paper label bottles because the acls have the boxed in frame around the main label. Heavyweight boxer Jack Dempsey is prominently mentioned in many of the 1937 ads.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm not certain about the date of this item but suspect it is from 1937 ...


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## M.C.Glass

When I inquired about this paper label RC to the guy who had posted it years earlier, he told me that it was a 1933...[attachment=RC paper label 1933.jpg]


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## dbv1919

Thanks for the info SODAPOPBOB very interesting.


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## bottlingco

I have an aqua one with the embossed full pyramid on the shoulder.  1937.  The full pyramid is harder to find than the embossed trapezoid version.  ~bottlingco


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## sunrunner

I have one with camals and pyamids on it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The only reference I can find to indicate Royal Crown Cola was bottled in 1933 is from the Gono.com link at the bottom of the list. I have my doubts about it's accuracy (could be a typo) because all of the other references point to *1934*. But setting the date aside for the moment, I'm digging a little deeper into this and trying to find information about "Grubb Bottling" in Dothan, Alabama who apparently was either the first or one of the first bottlers of Royal Crown Cola. Although I have not found any confirmed connections yet between Grubb Bottling and Royal Crown Cola in 1933 or 1934, I do know the bottler existed and will continue my search for more information.        



http://www.rccola.net/rccolastory/rccolastory2.htm

"A Nehi bottler named Grubb from Dothan, Alabama was one of the first to bottle the new Royal Crown Cola. He made a special trip to Columbus to tell Mott "You've got something here!" Other test bottlers agreed, and so did consumers, who paid the new cola the supreme compliment of abbreviating its name from Royal Crown to "RC," a designation that continues today." 




http://www.rccolainternational.com/about_royal_crown_history.aspx 

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap10a.pdf

http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/chero.html

1933 ??? 

http://www.gono.com/museum2003/museum%20collect%20info/cherocola.htm 


1.  The Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama ~ December 24, 1932

2.  The Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama ~ June 23, 1934


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## SODAPOPBOB

More "Grubb" and other Royal Crown Cola details ... http://files.usgwarchives.net/ga/muscogee/photos/hatcher13430gph.txt


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## lblackvelvet

Hello,  So does anyone know why some of the bottles are clear and some are aqua ?  And are one or the other more rare ?   Thanks,   Kevin....


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## judu

[attachment=2014_03221112220053.JPG][attachment=2014_03221112220053.JPG] [attachment=2014_03221112220054.JPG] [attachment=2014_03221112220054.JPG] [attachment=2014_03221112220055.JPG] [attachment=2014_03221112220055.JPG] [attachment=2014_03221112220053.JPG]


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## judu

soryy, trying to figure out how to post pictures....is this a 37? ....its in rough shape as it was dug...not sure how to read the owens-illin. ....


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## lblackvelvet

Here are four of my RC bottles I have that are not packed away.  Two are 1936 and one bottle has no pyramids at all from W. Va.


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## bottlingco

lblackvelvet,The ones that have "copyright 1936" on the ACL are not actually 1936.  That means the label design was copyrighted in that year.  The date of the bottle is  most likely to be embossed into the glass on the bottom of the bottle.  Your oldest one is the trapezoid embossed on the neck.  (Unless it is a later reissue.)  The painted label on the neck versions are later.  Nice, clean bottles. ~bottlingco


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## dbv1919

judo that's a 1937, Iblackvelvet I think bottlingco is dead on the money. Just from what I have observed the 36's and 37's have the really large RC in the acl and debossed necks with full or partial pyramid and star. The 38's have a smaller RC in the acl and embossed partial pyramid neck. I have no clue as to why some are more aqua colored than others. Most but not all Owens Illinois glass seems mostly aqua. LGW seems mostly lighter but not all. I have one RC bottle made by Ball it is absolutely clear. Maybe something with the sand in manufacture I have no idea. Iblackvelvet I would guess the second from left is a 1937 from the neck and large RC in the acl. The two on the outside I would think are 1940 or later, the 1939's have the acl royal crown with small rc under it. The third from left is the later acl. Just my uneducated opinion guys, thanks for all the responses.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The following is the result of information I gleaned from a variety of different sources which I believe to be accurate ...

R. M. / Robert Miller Grubb of Dothan, Alabama was one of the first bottlers of Royal Crown Cola. He and a handful of other bottlers test marketed Royal Crown Cola in 1934. The first bottles (1934 and 1935) had paper labels. The first acl bottle was introduced in 1936. The paper label bottles have an RC inside a trapezoid on the neck and Nehi Bottling embossed on the heel. But this doesn't mean that all paper label bottles were produced in 1934 and 1935 because some of the smaller bottlers during that time period used paper labels as late as 1939. Any Royal Crown Cola bottle from Dothan, Alabama which is dated 1934 to about 1948 would have been bottled by R.M. Grubb. He was born in 1883 and died at the age of 64 in 1948. The attachments are from ...

1.  1918 Draft Registration Card ~ Age 30
     Former Shipping Clerk ~ Produce & Ice Co. ~ Morristown, Tennessee 

2.  The Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama ~ December 2, 1943

3.  The Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama ~ March 9, 1948


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Even though I haven't been able to connect all of the dots yet, it appears that R.M. Grubb was a bottler of Chero-Cola as well as Nehi  - which would explain the Royal Crown Cola connection.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*I was in the process of putting together a Royal Crown Cola timeline of my own when I discovered this one ...*


http://archives.columbusstate.edu/findingaids/mc204.php


The following is a timeline for Chero-Cola /Nehi/ Royal Crown Cola:
 1905 - Claud Hatcher begins creating soft drinks in basement of family grocery store on W. Tenth Street in Columbus, Georgia.1907- Hatcher starts his own bottling works, Union Bottling Works1907- First cola called Chero-Cola, first beverage Royal Crown, a ginger ale1911 - Family grocery discontinued to concentrate on soft drinks.1912- Company name changes to Chero-Cola Co. And sells syrups and concentrates to bottlers under Chero-Cola trademark.1912- Begins selling to franchises, first one in Dawson, Georgia1914 - Lawsuit by Coca Cola over trademark use of "cola"; not won till19441917- WW I Sugar crisis limits use of sugar in soft drinks. Chero-Cola imports and refines Cuban sugar for 3 years.1920- After stockpiling sugar, price drops to 8 cents/pound creating financial hardship1922-26- Shipping practices change from syrup to concentrates, saving container and freight costs and making a fresher taste.1924-1928 Hatcher begins Nehi, a fruit flavored line- orange, grape, root beer1928 - Name changes to Nehi Corporation with stock listed on NY Curb Exchange1929-1932 - Stock market crashes and company loses money for first time1932 - Par-T-Pak introduced in quart size1933- Claud A. Hatcher dies suddenly. His will establishes the Pickett-Hatcher Educational Fund, providing education for millions1934- H.R. Mott becomes second president, reduces debt and streamlines Operations1934- New cola introduced, Royal Crown, using same name as Hatcher's first Ginger ale1934 - New RC Cola first bottled in Dothan, Alabama1934-35 - RC introduces 12 oz. Bottles; 2 full glass for 5 cents1940- Mott becomes chairman of the board and C.C. Colbert becomes president.1946 - Nehi advertises with national celebrities.1950's - RC's and Moonpie, the "working man's lunch" - new advertising Campaign1954- First to nationally introduce a soft drink can1955 -Wilber H. Glenn becomes president.1959 - Third corporate name change to Royal Crown Cola Co.1962- Diet Rite Cola introduced with great success1965-16 oz. Bottle introduced1969 - Bill Durkee becomes president.1969- Cyclamate (sugar substitute) banned by FDA as a carcinogen1975 - RC moves corporate headquarters to Atlanta.2000- Royal Crown acquired by Cadbury-Schweppes and then to Dr. Pepper Seven-Up, Inc.2001 - International RC business sold to Cott Beverages of Ontario


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## SODAPOPBOB

QUESTION: Is anyone aware of a Royal Crown Cola bottle with a "pointed" pyramid on the neck other than the 1936 example like Brad's? The trapezoid variations are "flat" on the top. It would be interesting to know what the 1934-35 bottles looked like. I've looked but cannot find one anywhere. 1.  Brad's 1936 bottle w/pointed pyramid.2.  1936 newspaper ad w/pointed pyramid and paper label.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Based on everything I've learned from this thread, three possible indicators related to identifying a 1934 or 1935 Royal Crown Cola bottle (that isn't date marked) are ... 1.  Clear glass2.  Non acl ~ possibly with or without a paper label3.  Pointed pyramid on neck


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## SODAPOPBOB

If we weren't slightly confused before, this should do it. I found this image of a Royal Crown *Cola* paper label in one of Allan Petretti's books. Even though it's not dated, it's definitely not like any Royal Crown Cola label I have seen previously. I had to use a magnifying loupe to read it and was able to see the words ...

Neck Label:

1.  Delicious Refreshing

Main Label:

1.  Contents ~ 12 Fluid Oz.
2.  Royal Crown Cola
3.  Special
4.  Extra Quality ~ Blends Deliciously
5.  Highland Beverage Company
6.  Manufacturers
7.  San Mateo, Cal
8.  Telephone 92 
9.  On both sides of the label are the images of a dragon-type Lion


This link is to a 1931-1932 San Mateo, Ca. directory. Scroll down several pages to the Beverages section where you will see a listing for Highland Beverages ...

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~npmelton/sm31_428.pdf


As we know, Royal Crown *Ginger Ale* was introduced in 1907. But what I didn't know is that it was bottled well into the 1930s. The attached newspaper ad is from ...

The Times ~ San Mateo, Ca. ~ November 26, *1932*

The ad clearly indicates that "Royal Crown Dry Ginger Ale" was produced by the Highland Beverage Co. during 1932. 

Now compare the label from Allan Petretti's book to the label on the bottle in the 1932 newspaper ad. I'm not certain but believe the label in the ad is a Ginger Ale label and not a Cola label. But irregardless of that, the two labels are similar and both have the Lion image, and both are by the Highland Beverage Company of San Mateo, California. 

The only thing I can think of to explain the Royal Crown *Cola* label is to refer back to the various Royal Crown histories where they state that after Claud Hatcher died on December 31, 1933, that the (Nehi) company needed a "new" flavor of cola. This leads me to believe the paper label was their "old" cola that was then reformulated and reintroduced in 1934.

We know Royal Crown Ginger Ale goes back as far as 1907, but I'm not sure how far back their "old" Cola goes. I plan to do some additional research and see if I can find out.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The bottle pictured here has been the subject of debate in the past as to whether it was related to the Nehi Royal Crown brand or some other brand? Even though it's a Root Beer bottle, I'm thinking because of the similarity of the crown embossed on the bottle and the crown image on the "old" paper label that they are in fact related. ( I believe there was a forum thread about this bottle and is where I got the picture of it ).


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## grime5

i looked at some of mine and the odd one i found is a clear one with the g in a square on the bottom and and the letters g j on the lip.what would that date be? later greg


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## SODAPOPBOB

grime5 said:
			
		

> i looked at some of mine and the odd one i found is a clear one with the g in a square on the bottom and and the letters g j on the lip.what would that date be? later greg



Glenshaw Glass CompanyG = 1935J = 1938


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## SODAPOPBOB

Greg Is your clear bottle an acl or blank? And if it has a pyramid on the shoulder, is the pyramid pointed or flat topped?


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## SODAPOPBOB

This newspaper article will shed some light on the Root Beer aspect of Royal Crown.  From ... The Plano Star-Courier ~ Plano, Texas ~ June 13, *1979*


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## dbv1919

Sodapopbob I used to own a 1937 pointed top triangle debossed Owens Illinois ACL RC bottle. I let my best friend who also is a bottle collector have it because I already had a 37 flat triangle (mistake). I have only saw about 3 pointed 1937's  they are rare but do exist. I'll get a pic of it next time I'm at his house. I have never saw a 1938 pointed top only flats and have never saw any 1938's with debossed necks all embossed. By the way you may be the best bottle researcher I have ever seen excellent work.


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## dbv1919

P.S. judu's earlier post looks to me like a pointed 1937.


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## bottlingco

I have tried, unsuccessfully, to add a photo of my 1937 with the embossed pyramid on the neck.  I just do not have the time to fool around half a day trying to get pictures to upload to this site.  Until I get help with it, I give up!~bottlingco


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## grime5

my clear rc is an acl the top of the pyramic is flat and debossed. the city name is embossed on the bottom and in acl on the back of the bottle along with the goodhousekeeping seal.hope this all helped. later greg


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## SODAPOPBOB

bottlingco said:
			
		

> I have tried, unsuccessfully, to add a photo of my 1937 with the embossed pyramid on the neck.  I just do not have the time to fool around half a day trying to get pictures to upload to this site.  Until I get help with it, I give up!~bottlingco



bottlingco: I can relate to your frustration because I had a problem at first, too. In fact, I still haven't figured out the Photobucket applications. If all else fails, try ... 1.  Click on (Open Full Version) at the top of reply page.2.  Then click on [/i] Upload file(s) to the server which should take you directly to your photo files.


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## SODAPOPBOB

grime5 / Greg: Thanks for the info about your bottle. It sounds like a 1938 but I'm not sure about the G for 1935. Member squirtbob and I participated in a thread about a year ago involving Glenshaw Glass codes in which squirtbob discovered several double-letter codes on the lips of some of his Squirt bottles. If I remember correctly, I don't believe we ever figured out why some bottles have the double-letters other than the earlier code might indicate when a particular bottle was first introduced and the later code being when it was actually produced. ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919: Thanks for the compliment. I just wish I had more time to do research. Finding and downloading information from the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to is like a slow-boat to China. When I initially type in "Royal Crown Cola" it brings up 95,959 results. From there I have to narrow it down by date and location, which has proved to be a real challenge, not to mention having to convert the images to jpg and then resizing them, all of which takes a ton of time. But all things considered, I enjoy it and glad I can be of help. Here's an ad from 1937 that I think you will enjoy, and which has some interesting information. Notice where it states ... 1.  Approximately two years old2.  600 bottlers located throughout the nation3.  Seven years of experimentation and work was required by one of the most renowned chemist     in the United States. ( The chemist was Rufus Kamm ) From ... The Daily Times-News ~ Burlington, North Carolina ~ November 15, 1937


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Rufus Kamm ... Here's a 1940 Census on him from Columbus, Georiga. Notice where it shows his occupation as ... Chemist / Soft Drink Beverage


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## SODAPOPBOB

And because everybody likes pictures of old soda bottles ... I don't know the location or date when this photo was taken but suspect it's from the 1940s.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. It would be interesting to know what was involved regarding the "seven years" of experimentation. Because the article was published in 1937, that would push back the start of the experimentation to around 1930. Based on the timeline I posted earlier, the only events it has for that time period are ... 1929-1932 - Stock market crashes and company loses money for first time


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## SODAPOPBOB

Update ...

I'm still trying to determine just how far back the "old" Royal Crown Cola goes but haven't found anything specific so far related to that. However, I did discover a couple of things about Royal Crown Ginger Ale. Earlier I said it was bottled as late as the 1930s and posted a 1932 ad to that effect. As it turns out, it was bottled as late as 1942. But 1942 is the latest date I can find. After that it just disappears. ???

Additionally ...

Here's the link to a Royal Crown forum thread from 2008 that is worth reading and has some additional information ...

https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/royal-crown-m166934.aspx


During the course of the thread, Kathy from the "Soda Fizz" posted some interesting comments and at one point asked for a picture of a Royal Crown Ginger Ale bottle. No one ever did find an actual picture of the bottle she asked about.

Anyhoo ...

I found a picture of a Royal Crown Ginger Ale bottle but not sure if the paper label is original to the green bottle. It's hard to tell in Morb's ad if the bottle is clear or green.

Attachments ...

1.  Royal Crown Cola and Royal Crown Ginger Ale ad from ...
     Albuquerque Journal ~ Albuquerque, New Mexico ~ May 1, *1942*
     (Latest date I could find) 

2.  Royal Crown Ginger Ale ad when it was first introduced to Knoxville, Tennessee. Date unknown. 
      ( Image from member Morbious_fod's Tazwell website ) 

3.  Royal Crown Ginger Ale bottle with paper label depicting pyramid and camels. Date unknown.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. For dbv1919: As a sampling gauge as to what I was saying earlier about "time," everything I found and posted this morning involved approximately *four hours*, which isn't too bad considering I spent about three-quarters of that time just searching.


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## dbv1919

Sodapopbob, Thanks for all the info I would have otherwise never known. Between four kids and busy job I appreciate the "cliff notes"


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## grime5

sodapopbob my dual numbered rc has the big r.c letters in the label not the smaller ones.would that be a 38 or the older date code 35.just wondering.thansk greg


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## SODAPOPBOB

grime5 said:
			
		

> sodapopbob my dual numbered rc has the big r.c letters in the label not the smaller ones.would that be a 38 or the older date code 35.just wondering.thansk greg



 Greg: The best way I know of to answer your question is to refer you back to dbv's lineup from page one and note the dates I added based on his descriptions. It appears the large RC transitioned to the small rc in 1937-1938. All things considered, and particularly because of the code(s) on your Glenshaw bottle, I'd say it is most likely a 1938. But I'm not sure how accurate this is because in order to be conclusive we would have to see a lot more of the different variations and the dates they were produced. What confuses me more than anything is the double-code on your bottle - that's something we might never figure out.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Also notice the different shapes of the bottles. Some appear wider than others and have slightly different shoulder heights. But I believe all of them are 12 ounce.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Note of interest ... When I first subscribed to the newspaper archives about two months ago it showed a total number of pages at 65+ million. The count goes up daily and it now has 70+ million pages. And just overnight the count for Royal Crown Cola increased from 95,959 yesterday to 96,131 this morning - but it doesn't indicate what newspapers they are from.


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## squirtbob

Perhaps this picture will help with regards to dating Glenshaw bottles.  I found three bottles together and all share similar characteristics.  They are all green with a small embossed ring around the neck.  All say " Min. Conts 6-FL-OZ. Property of Nehi Bottling Co." (all embossed near the base of the bottle)  Two are Glenshaw bottles and are both Upper 10.  The third bottle has all the acl rubbed off.  It is definitely an Owens Illinois bottle and  clearly dates to 1936.  The attached pictures shows the neck of both Glenshaw bottles . hopefully you can see the "G 1"  ...so I'm guessing that stands for 1935 and perhaps the 1 indicates this as the first year that they used this dating method.


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## squirtbob

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> grime5 / Greg: Thanks for the info about your bottle. It sounds like a 1938 but I'm not sure about the G for 1935. Member squirtbob and I participated in a thread about a year ago involving Glenshaw Glass codes in which squirtbob discovered several double-letter codes on the lips of some of his Squirt bottles. If I remember correctly, I don't believe we ever figured out why some bottles have the double-letters other than the earlier code might indicate when a particular bottle was first introduced and the later code being when it was actually produced. ???


The earliest Glenshaw bottle I have found for a squirt had a "K" on the lip for 1939.  Perhaps a "J" exists but I've never seen one.  All of the Glenshaw bottles have a number on the opposite side of the Letter code, but the number appears to have nothing to do with the date.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I purchased this Royal Crown bottle on eBay this morning for $12.98. It wasn't dated but because ... 1.  It is clear glass2.  Has a pointed pyramid3.  Is a non ACL ... I'm hoping it's a super early one from 1934 or 1935. I will tell you more about it after it arrives in about a week.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Squirtbob:

Thanks for the info on your Glenshaw bottles. Do you have any insights as to why they would put two letters on the lip? The letter/number combos almost make sense, but two different letters indicating two totally different dates has me baffled.

Speaking of baffled, I thought I knew a thing or two about *Laurens Glass Works *marks. But as it turns out, I can't recall when it was they used the LGW mark without numbers on either side to indicate a date?  For example; I know that *3LGW9 *stands for 1939. But how do you date a LGW bottle without the numbers? And was the solo LGW first or did it come later? The reason I ask is because the RC bottle I purchased this morning has LGW on the base but no numbers. If anyone has the answer to my LGW quandary, please let me know.


Here's a picture of the base with ...


LGW
  2


Note: 
Based on what I've learned about RC bottles recently, I'm pretty sure this particular bottle is pre-1939, but I'm not 100% sure about that, either. It has Nehi Bottling on the heel.


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## dbv1919

SODAPOPBOB- I've got a question for you. I have one royal crown bottle I can't seem to date. It's the first bottle that got me into collecting when I was helping out at the old general store my grandmother worked at. It came in with some cases of new bottles in the late 70's and had been refilled and had a new cap but it was an older bottle. Anyway its an ACL bottle with the small rc and pyamids, the neck has royal crown yellow ACL. I'm sure its post 1939(sorry no pic computer whiz daughter gone this weekend.) The bottle is a completely clear Ball. The Ball on the bottom is slanted upwards to the right just like on mason jars. I'm guessing 1945. Can't seem to find the date any idea? The bottom is a follows...                                                                                              33 - 12                                                       Ball   5                                                         l E


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## SODAPOPBOB

dbv: If you solve my mystery, I'll solve yours! (Lol) [] (Just kidding). The truth is, I'm not familiar with Ball bottles, especially Ball soda bottles, which I believe are far and few between. The 5 might be for 1945, but I'm really not sure. Perhaps the answer can be found on this website, which I only thumbed through but saw some potential clues. Please let us know if you find anything ... http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/ball-perfect-mason-jars/


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## SODAPOPBOB

The only thing I've discovered about LGW marks so far is they started using date numbers in *1919*. But I still don't know when they stopped using date numbers.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, now I'm really confused! I did a quick search on eBay using the heading "LGW Soda Bottle" and found several examples of 1940s and 1950s bottles with marks such as 4LGW5 (1945) and 5LGW7 (1957). So if Laurens Glass Works continued the number/letter codes well into the 1950s, then how do we explain my RC bottle with no numbers? (Except, of course, the number 2, which I'm not sure about).


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## SODAPOPBOB

dbv: Based on everything you know about Royal Crown soda bottles, what is the "latest" date you would guesstimate my clear, pointed pyramid RC bottle to be?


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## dbv1919

Sodapopbob, Your bottle lip and ring on top reminds me of some of the old par t pac bottles from the early 30's. I think its older than any I have. Maybe that experimental seven years before mass production? Sometimes I overthink bottle dates ect. and need to use old common sense. Even though I think I know better my gut wants to think 1932. I know everything says it wasn't produced until 1934 there had to be some initial tests. I didn't think LGW had a bunch of different factories like Owens Illinois. I'm not aware of them having mold numbers, the most logical answer to me would be 1932. Cant really really see having a bunch of molds from the 34-35 period but just not sure let me know if you find out.


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## squirtbob

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Squirtbob:
> 
> Thanks for the info on your Glenshaw bottles. Do you have any insights as to why they would put two letters on the lip? The letter/number combos almost make sense, but two different letters indicating two totally different dates has me baffled.
> 
> Speaking of baffled, I thought I knew a thing or two about *Laurens Glass Works *marks. But as it turns out, I can't recall when it was they used the LGW mark without numbers on either side to indicate a date?  For example; I know that *3LGW9 *stands for 1939. But how do you date a LGW bottle without the numbers? And was the solo LGW first or did it come later? The reason I ask is because the RC bottle I purchased this morning has LGW on the base but no numbers. If anyone has the answer to my LGW quandary, please let me know.
> 
> 
> Here's a picture of the base with ...
> 
> 
> LGW
> 2
> 
> 
> Note:
> Based on what I've learned about RC bottles recently, I'm pretty sure this particular bottle is pre-1939, but I'm not 100% sure about that, either. It has Nehi Bottling on the heel.


SODAPOPBOB,  It is NOT two letters.  One side has a capital G followed by a 1 (one).  The reverse side of the lip always has a two digit number, perhaps a mold number, I've never seen it remotely correspond to a date.  Is it possible that G1 stood for 1935+1 or 1936.  I've never seen an H or an I Glenshaw bottle. As mentioned earlier in the thread the OI bottle that matches the Glenshaw bottle is definitely 1936.


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## SODAPOPBOB

grime5 said:
			
		

> i looked at some of mine and the odd one i found is a clear one with the g in a square on the bottom and and the letters g j on the lip.what would that date be? later greg



Bob: To clarify my question, I was referring to the double letters on grime5/Greg's Royal Crown bottle that has a *G *and a *J *on the lip.


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## SODAPOPBOB

dbv: Thanks. 1932 crossed my mind as well but I dared not say it without something to substantiate it. So with that in mind, I'm breaking out my backhoe and plan to dig even deeper.


----------



## squirtbob

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> grime5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i looked at some of mine and the odd one i found is a clear one with the g in a square on the bottom and and the letters g j on the lip.what would that date be? later greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob: To clarify my question, I was referring to the double letters on grime5/Greg's Royal Crown bottle that has a *G *and a *J *on the lip.
Click to expand...

Since I've never seen a Glenshaw bottle with a lip mark of H, I or J is it possible that G3 is 1935 + 3= 1938.  Does that make any sense for this thread?  I know that it picks up with K= 1939 and L= 1940 because I have squirt bottles with those marks. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bob:

The confusing part about grime5's Royal Crown Cola bottle is that it has two letters on the lip. It has a G for 1935 as well as a J for 1938. We were wondering if you had any insights as to why his bottle would have two letters on the lip?  We were also wondering if you had a best-guess as to which of the two letters might represent what year the bottle was actually produced?

~ * ~

While we're waiting to hear back from Squirtbob, I thought I'd add this tid-bit about Nehi. As we know, Nehi played a major role in the history of Royal Crown Cola. According to most accounts, Nehi was introduced in 1924 by the Chero-Cola Company and became a huge seller. In fact, Nehi was such a success they even changed the name from Chero Cola Company to Nehi Corporation in 1928. Of course, Royal Crown Cola would soon follow Nehi around 1934.

The main tid-bits I was referring to are ...

1.  Nehi Bottle Patent ~ Filed December 6, 1924 ~ Approved March 3, 1925

2.  Nehi Ad ~ Middlesboro Daily News ~ Middlesboro, Kentucky ~ October 29, 1925

This is the earliest Nehi advertisement I have been able to find. Notice it's by the Chero-Cola Bottling Company. Also notice the word embossed on the bottom of the bottle. I'm not 100% certain what the word is - the best I can come up with is *ARBATCY*. I don't see any other letters and pretty sure that's a T and not an R. None of the other R's have the overhanging part on the front of it. Does this word (whatever it might be) ring any bells with anyone? 

3.  This Nehi Ad is a little later but I couldn't pass up sharing it ...
     The Time Recorder ~ Zanesville, Ohio ~ March 7, 1926


----------



## squirtbob

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Bob:
> 
> The confusing part about grime5's Royal Crown Cola bottle is that it has two letters on the lip. It has a G for 1935 as well as a J for 1938. We were wondering if you had any insights as to why his bottle would have two letters on the lip?  We were also wondering if you had a best-guess as to which of the two letters might represent what year the bottle was actually produced?
> 
> ~ * ~
> 
> While we're waiting to hear back from Squirtbob, I thought I'd add this tid-bit about Nehi. As we know, Nehi played a major role in the history of Royal Crown Cola. According to most accounts, Nehi was introduced in 1924 by the Chero-Cola Company and became a huge seller. In fact, Nehi was such a success they even changed the name from Chero Cola Company to Nehi Corporation in 1928. Of course, Royal Crown Cola would soon follow Nehi around 1934.
> 
> The main tid-bits I was referring to are ...
> 
> 1.  Nehi Bottle Patent ~ Filed December 6, 1924 ~ Approved March 3, 1925
> 
> 2.  Nehi Ad ~ Middlesboro Daily News ~ Middlesboro, Kentucky ~ October 29, 1925
> 
> This is the earliest Nehi advertisement I have been able to find. Notice it's by the Chero-Cola Bottling Company. Also notice the word embossed on the bottom of the bottle. I'm not 100% certain what the word is - the best I can come up with is *ARBATCY*. I don't see any other letters and pretty sure that's a T and not an R. None of the other R's have the overhanging part on the front of it. Does this word (whatever it might be) ring any bells with anyone?
> 
> 3.  This Nehi Ad is a little later but I couldn't pass up sharing it ...
> The Time Recorder ~ Zanesville, Ohio ~ March 7, 1926


Is there any way to get a close up of the lip of the bottle in question.  Sometimes they are not clear at all ...so I wonder if this is really a G and a J. Could the J be a 1 ...they look relatively similar?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

grime5 said:
			
		

> sodapopbob my dual numbered rc has the big r.c letters in the label not the smaller ones.would that be a 38 or the older date code 35.just wondering.thansk greg



Squirtbob: That's a good question about the J possibly being a 1. But even if it is a G1 for 1935, it's still a little confusing because Grime5's bottle is an ACL. So does this suggest that Grime5's bottle is a 1935 ACL? I guess the answer depends on Grime5's response as to whether the mark is in fact a J or a 1. ~ * ~ Speaking of confusing ... I communicated with the seller of the clear RC bottle I purchased on eBay and they had this to say ... [Partially edited] "I dug the bottle in a dump where all the bottles I found dated between 1928 and 1937. I believe the clear RC bottle is from the early thirties. It was found among a bunch of Christmas Cokes all of which were dated either 1933 or 1934." ~ * ~ I'm not sure this tells the whole story, but I can't help but wonder if the LGW-2 might very well be for 1932?


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob this is all hearsay/word of mouth so I didn't post it earlier but but I believe there may be something to it. I could never find any literature to back it up. I purchased a bottle from a  from a man in West Virginia a few years ago he also had a paper label embossed neck rc that I was afraid to buy because he said was a 1933. He was a more than eccentric to say the least but had some good full bottles. I purchased a OI 38 and was afraid of the 33 which was super high priced. It had a bottom like yours, he told me that LGW bottles 1939 and after were marked 3L G W9 and before that the were marked LGW with the year number below the G. I have since come to believe it may be true so take it for what it's worth. Break out backhoe...


----------



## dbv1919

SODAPOPBOB,  Check out this auction on ebay with a copyright date of 1930.          -RC Cola paper advertisement bottle shaped cut-out 29 5/8" tall circa 1930-


----------



## M.C.Glass

That cut out does clearly say 1930 but I don't personally believe it's authentic. Colors look too fresh and bright. And that date. I emailed Mr. Peacock, who told me his paper label RC was 1933, but he hasn't replied.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv: Great find! Because this is totally unexplored territory for me, I'm keeping an open mind regarding all dates and other factors. Here's the eBay link and a couple of pics - which I feel are worthy of additional investigation ...  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=191194335462&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The first thing I intend to look into is the Nehi, *Inc.  ( Incorporated ) ?*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I have a couple of Royal Crown/Nehi websites readily available that only take a minute to tap into, and my initial findings related to the paper sign are ... 1.  The Nehi, *Inc*. fits okay with the 1930 date and even as early as 1924.2.  I believe this is a case similar to the 1936 dates on so many of the Royal Crown bottles in that     the date is a copyright date and not necessarily when a particular item was produced. Many     sellers of such items are often confused or mistaken about this aspect.3.  Even though the 1930 date fits with Nehi, everything else about the paper sign, including     bottle style, etc., suggest late 1930s, early 1940s.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I received another communication from the eBay seller of my clear RC bottle and 
they informed me that they dug several of the same type of bottles except that 
where mine has a 2 the others have 3, 4, 5, and a 6. Normally I'd say single 
digit numbers like that are mold numbers, but the odds of finding sequential 
mold numbers in a single dump seem astronomical to me, suggesting that the 
numbers might very well be codes for 1932,1933,1934,1935, and 1936. ???(Please note the question marks) []


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob  I believe you may be on to something here. It doesn't make sense to have that many molds in a single place. Maybe the gentleman in West Virginia was correct? MCglass  I don't know what to think about the sign it looks almost too good. But it's interesting though. I would love to know about the date on the paper label bottle, hope you find out and let us know.


----------



## dbv1919

P.S. Sodapopbob I don't know if this is of any use but I went and looked for the copyright on the bottles I have and both 1937 bottles I have don't have the 1936 copyright by Nehi Inc. All three 1938 bottles I have do have the 1936 copright, and every other acl pyramid after that has the copyright up to my newest which is 52.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919 said:
			
		

> P.S. Sodapopbob I don't know if this is of any use but I went and looked for the copyright on the bottles I have and both 1937 bottles I have don't have the 1936 copyright by Nehi Inc. All three 1938 bottles I have do have the 1936 copright, and every other acl pyramid after that has the copyright up to my newest which is 52.



I thought about that, too, but the problem with the non-acls is that they don't have any place to show the copyright date, thus leaving us in the dark and pushing us back to square one!  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Try this one on for size ... 

I'm hoping the following will shed some light on things and not make them more confusing, so please bare with me as I try to make sense of this ...

According to this "collector," he states that raised-letter/embossed Dr Pepper bottles were only made in the late 1920s to about *1931*. And even though I'm not certain if this is true or not, for the time being I will accept it as fact and assume that all "debossed" variations were produced after 1931.

Here's his quote and the link where I found it ... 

"We collectors use the term "Raised Letter" when describing them in auctions or publications.  The term "Raised Letter" is for the lettering & design on the sides of the bottle. It is all truly embossed and has no debossed lettering. These type were only made in the late 20's to about 1931." 

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Dr-Pepper-Bottle-styles-1920s-30s-Embossed-Debossed-/10000000005012846/g.html 

~ * ~

Which brings us to a Dr Pepper bottle currently on eBay. Notice that it's the more common "Debossed" variation which, according to our collector guy, would have been made "after" 1931. Right? Okay, fine. Now look at picture of the base where you will see a solo LGW with a 5 beneath it. I searched high and low and this is the only solo LGW mark I have been able to find with a solo number. All of the others were the typical 3LGW9 type marks that are easy to date, with my example here being for 1939.

So is it possible that the LGW 5 on the Dr Pepper bottle is for 1935? Or is it 1945, 1955, or not a date at all and simply a mold number?

Perhaps one of the Dr Pepper collectors among us will be able to shed some light on things, especially considering how blurry they are at the moment. The only thing I can say with relative certainty is that solo LGW marks are far and few between. So far I have only seen two, one on my clear RC bottle and one on this Dr Pepper bottle ... 

Link to eBay "Debossed" Dr Pepper bottle with LGW 5 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121353061366?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For Comparison ...  1. RC2. Dr Pepper


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the information for the article on this link was provided by the Royal Crown Company itself. Most accounts I've read indicate it was "after" Claud Hatcher's death on December 31, 1933 that chemist Rufus Kamm was tasked with the challenge of developing a "new" cola, which, as we know would become known as Royal Crown Cola. And yet, in this particular article it states it was Hatcher himself who initiated the development of the new cola "shortly before" his death in "1932."

Just how accurate this information is I cannot say, but it at least gives us a possible window related to 1932, which in turn adds a small measure of credibility to the dates prior to 1933 and 1934. But whether or not they produced any bottles for test market purposes in 1932 still remains to be seen.      



http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/54/Royal-Crown-Company-Inc.html


"The greatest money to be earned in the soft drink industry was still in the cola market. Hatcher's realization of this fact had prompted the development of Chero-Cola in the first decade of the century, and it prompted him to muster another attempt shortly before his death. In 1932 he had instructed his chemist to develop a cola beverage, and by 1934, when the company stood on solid financial ground, the new cola product was ready for distribution. Named Royal Crown, the new soft drink represented the company's future, becoming a favorite of consumers in the decades to follow."


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Maybe, just maybe my clear RC bottle didn't contain cola at all. Maybe it contained a fruit flavor like that on the caps shown below. But please don't ask me the dates of the caps, because at the moment I don't have a clue except that the name "Nehi Bottling" was established around 1928. However, I will say this much; the crown image on the caps is very similar to the crown image on the embossed Royal Crown Root Beer bottle I posted a picture of earlier. My initial reaction is to say the caps are most likely from the heavily embossed bottles except that ... 1.  I don't know exactly what time period the crown embossed bottles are from.2.  I don't believe a connection between the crown embossed bottles and Nehi has ever been established.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the crown embossed root beer bottle again ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ... The RC on my clear bottle surely stands for ROYAL CROWN, but that doesn't automatically mean it is a "cola" bottle!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

QUESTION OF THE DAY: Is it even remotely possible that my, as well as the other LGW 2,3,4,6 bottles are Royal Crown "flavor" bottles from 1932-1933-1934-1936 - which would have had paper labels?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

After all ... Those particular bottles are "clear glass"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In case you're wondering why Royal Crown would produce fruit flavors when Nehi's claim to fame was flavored beverages, well, I'm wondering the same thing. And yet, the bottle caps I posted clearly show ROYAL CROWN / NEHI BOTTLING COMPANY - and they are definitely fruit flavored soda bottle caps.


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob I owe you  and everybody an apology. My bottle collecting friend came over comparing RC bottles today and we went through my bottles thoroughly today. I thought of my 15 or so rc bottles I had all OI except for one ball and one LGW. I had not picked up my "36" bottle in three or four years I could have sworn it was an OI bottle. Low and behold it is an LGW. LGW with a 6 under it. I honestly now am not sure of the year. I'm 99.9 percent it is no later than 37 because of the ACL. But here is the bottom. It was not my intent to deceive anyone, I feel like a fool. My honest apologies, Brad.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: Don't feel bad because I might have some apologizing of my own to do. It dawned on me this morning that the clear RC bottle I purchased, and that I am still waiting to receive, might be a "ghost" acl with the label worn off. About all I know about it at the moment are the pictures I've seen and that it was recently "dug" from a dump. I will be disappointed if it does turn out to be a ghost acl, but I won't hold it against the seller because if it is a worn-off acl, I'm sure they were not aware of it themselves. Its really hard to tell sometimes unless there is a faint trace of the acl left and held in the right light. But on the other hand, it could very well be a clear bottle that once held a paper label. As for your bottle with the LGW 6, that actually might be good news because it could be a clue to the LGW dating code for 1936. So hang in there, because this Jack Dempsey boxing match ain't over until someone cries "uncle."  Heck with the bottles - I want a pair of those signed boxing gloves! []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because I know I'll never find a pair of the Royal Crown/Jack Dempsey boxing gloves, I just bought this ...  *Dated 1936 Booklet w/ 16 Pages* Apparently it was a sort of consolation prize for the kids who couldn't afford or save up enough bottle caps to acquire the boxing gloves. I won't say how much I paid for the book except that it wasn't cheap. Also check this out!  http://may12.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?lotno=685 1. Front of book (The signature is a facsimile)2. One of the 16 pages3. Framed card from link ~ 1936 ~ Sold for $325.00


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Brad Now compare your 1936 bottle to the apparently 1936 Jack Dempsey card. The card shows a flat-top pyramid. But then again, maybe the dates are not accurate.


----------



## OsiaBoyce

I've got one that's   LGW .                                5


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

OsiaBoyce said:
			
		

> I've got one that's   LGW                               5



 ACL or Clear?


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Painted label on a clear bottle. Good House Keeping on the back.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

OsiaBoyce said:
			
		

> I've got one that's   LGW                                5



Pointed Pyramid or Flat-Top?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The "debossed" part on the shoulder. Does it come to a point or is it flat on top?


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Pointy x 2.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Osia: Thanks! ~ * ~ Based on everything we've seen, the "pointy" pyramids are typically only found on the earlier bottles from 1936 to about 1938. But it still remains to be determined just exactly what the LGW solo numbers represent. We now have LGW 2 through 6, but no other numbers I am aware of. If they are mold numbers, then why no examples of other numbers such as 7, 8, 9, etc? I'm not certain, but I believe automatic bottle machines in the 1930s and 1940s handled more than ten molds at a time. In fact, by the 1930s I believe some of the machines accommodated as many as 50 or more molds at one time. Setting all of this guessing aside, I think the only way to truly solve the LGW mystery is to find someone who is an expert in the field, or keep digging until the answer can be found elsewhere. Personally, I have pretty much hit a dead-end on the LGW stuff and have looked everywhere I can think of - but I know the answer is out there "somewhere."


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I found this the other day, but because it is inconclusive and vague, I didn't post it but will now because it leads me to "suspect" that ... 1. LGW marks in the teens were on one side of the mark such as LGW 19 for 19192. In the *1930s *"some" of the LGW marks were solo with no numbers3. By the 1940s and 1950s the marks had numbers on either side such as 5LGW6 for 1956 Like I said, the information is vague, and yet I can't help but wonder about the picture of the solo L.G.W. mark from the 1930s which apparently isn't the case from the other decades. Scroll to Laurens Glass Works ... http://www.lynchburginsulators.info/L-lookalikes.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

After carefully evaluating all of the so called evidence, as vague as it is, I have come up with the following best guess observations ...

( Observations are subject to change based on future evidence and findings )

1.  Laurens Glass Works started marking their bottles in 1919
2.  Their earliest mark was LGW with double digit numbers on one side such as LGW ##
3.  They continued using the LGW ## mark until around 1930
4.  Around 1930 they changed their mark to a solo L.G.W. with no numbers
5.  They continued using the solo L.G.W. mark until around 1938
6.  Around 1938 they changed their mark to LGW with numbers on either side such as # LGW #
7.  They continued using the # LGW # mark until around 1970
8.  Around 1970 they changed their mark to a solo L
9.  They continued using the solo L until 1996

I do not know with certainty when they used the solo LGW with solo numbers, nor whether the solo numbers are date codes or some other kind of code, but bottles with this type of mark are certainly from the mid to late 1930s, and possibly a little later into the early 1940s.

As near as I can determine, the first confirmed Royal Crown Cola ACL bottle was produced in 1937 with 1936 being another possibility but which still needs to be confirmed.


----------



## squirtbob

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> I found this the other day, but because it is inconclusive and vague, I didn't post it but will now because it leads me to "suspect" that ... 1. LGW marks in the teens were on one side of the mark such as LGW 19 for 19192. In the *1930s *"some" of the LGW marks were solo with no numbers3. By the 1940s and 1950s the marks had numbers on either side such as 5LGW6 for 1956 Like I said, the information is vague, and yet I can't help but wonder about the picture of the solo L.G.W. mark from the 1930s which apparently isn't the case from the other decades. Scroll to Laurens Glass Works ... http://www.lynchburginsulators.info/L-lookalikes.html


Bob,  Here's some different drink LGW bottles (some acl some not) that I have that may help with the above1) Thanksgiving Coke LGW192) Pepsi 3LGW9 (probably paper label but missing) different than typical double dots3) Iceberg Flavors 5LGW04) SunCrest 4LGW05) Mr Cola 6LGW26) Nehi 5LGW17) Jo-Jo 4LGW98) Budwine 4LGW59) Nu-Icy 91LGW1 the oddball in the group10 Single dot Pepsi  LGW above A57 below all, on the bottom of the bottle11) Red/White/Blue Pepsi Double Dot Pepsi  L.G.W. above 46 below, on bottom12) Dr Pepper Greenville, SC  4LGW6


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Read this?  http://scholarcommons.sc....orks%20laurens%20sc%22


----------



## OsiaBoyce

Or this? http://www.angelfire.com/...dafizz/LGWexhibit.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Squirtbob:

Thanks for the examples of the various LGW marks. The double-number one's are relatively easy to date, but definitely help to narrow things down.

~ * ~

Osia:

Thanks for the links. I found and read both of them this past week and hope other members enjoy them as well. They are informative as a general history about Laurens Glass Works but I could not find any specific details regarding bottle marks and dating codes in either one of them.

~ * ~

Speaking of bottle marks ...

1.  Non-acl, aqua RC bottle with pointed pyramid. Described as marked on the base with "C in a Circle     with the Number 5"

The C in a circle is for Chattanooga Glass, Tennessee. There's that 5 again which is driving me bonkers. It's on some of the Laurens Glass Works bottles, too. But what it stands for I do not know!

2.  Paper labels. Date unknown but does not have the 1936 Nehi Copyright.

3.  Green RC bottle with pointed pyramid. First I've seen and know nothing about. Marked with Nehi     Bottling. Date unknown.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Would someone please inform eBay sellers and other auction sites that if it's a Royal Crown item and has ... "Best By Taste Test" ... on it that it dates 1940 or later. I can't believe the number of items I've seen with the 1936 Copyright date which most sellers automatically assume is the date the item was produced.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I scanned this from Bill Porter's book and it is important to point out that it pertains to embossed Coca Cola hobbleskirt bottles only and not acls. Coca Cola was very particular about how their bottles were marked, so Laurens Glass Works made an exception especially for them. But even with this emphasized, I can't help but wonder if other brands such as Royal Crown got wind of the idea and occasionally used some variation of it as well?


----------



## dbv1919

Keep plugging away Sodapopbob if anyone can solve the rc mystery its you, hell you should write a book about it when its solved.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919 said:
			
		

> Keep plugging away Sodapopbob if anyone can solve the rc mystery its you, hell you should write a book about it when its solved.




Brad: Thanks. As for the book, what you see here is what you get. Accessible by millions via Google and other search engines. I've already checked and you can't search Royal Crown without a link or picture to "your" thread popping up.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of books ...

Here are a couple of more pictures from the Jack Dempsey / Royal Crown Cola book I recently purchased on eBay. (I haven't received the book yet - the pics are from eBay). On the inside cover it shows a copyright date of 1936 and the bottle image is obviously an acl. But whether we can consider this confirmation of a 1936 acl could be the subject of debate. As for the promotion about saving up bottle caps to acquire one of the books, the earliest newspaper ad I can find is from March of 1937. No doubt the book was designed and printed several months in advance of the promotion, which most likely would have been sometime in late 1936. This suggest to me the bottle pictured in the book would most likely have been from 1936 as well. Even though this is somewhat speculative, I think it is enough evidence to warrant a continued search for a 1936 acl. And if you're thinking that a 1936 acl has already been established, please be reminded that dbv1919's bottle turned out to be one of the mystery LGW bottles with a 6 on the base. The jury is still out on those bottles as to what the various numbers represent. As for confirmation on a 1937 acl, this link is to a thread from just a few weeks ago that shows pictures of an Owens-Illinois bottle marked on the base with 1937 ...

Http://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Desperatly-need-help-identifying-the-age-of-a-few-Soda-Bottles-grateful-for-any-help-m650552.aspx

Note: In case I missed something and someone has a Royal Crown Cola ACL that is clearly marked with 1936, please share it with us. 

1.  Inside cover with contents and 1936 Copyright
2.  Copyright cropped and enlarged
3.  Image of acl bottle on page 11


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I almost forgot ... Click back to page one of this thread and you will find pictures of another 1937 Owens-Illinois acl bottle posted by member juju


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's one of the articles about the Jack Dempsey/Royal Crown bottle cap 
promotion. Notice it refers to them as bottle "tops" and not bottle caps. Also 
notice when you do the math that a pair of the boxing gloves would end up 
costing a kid $7.50. I have to believe that was a lot of money during the 
Depression. A bottle of RC cost 5-cents at the time and 125 caps comes to $6.25, 
plus they had to pay an additional $1.25, which brings the grand total to $7.50. 
Even if a kid drank one bottle of RC a day, that adds up to four months in order 
to get the necessary 125 bottle caps. Can you imagine some kid from a struggling 
family during the Depression asking his parents for 5-cents a day so he could 
get a pair of the signed Jack Dempsey boxing gloves? I suspect that not very 
many of the gloves were purchased and that most of the kids had to settle for 
the "How To Box" book that only required 5 bottle tops. And talk about rip-offs, 
notice in the picture from the book where it states the gloves were a "Regular 
$2.50 Value." I wonder how they come up with a $2.50 "value" that actually cost 
the kids $7.50? All things considered, most of the kids probably scrounged aroundfor the caps and got them from grocers and soda pop dispensers. 1.  Pampa Daily News ~ Pampa, Texas ~ April 16, 19372.  Back cover of "How To Box" book


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ... I found and purchased another copy of the 1936 Jack Dempsey "How To Box" books. As soon as I receive both books and examine them, I plan to keep the best of the two and either sell or trade the other one. If interested, please contact me via a PM. But please wait until I post some pictures of the for sale/trade book which I will do in about a week from now.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

My clear RC bottle arrived yesterday and I will post some comments on it shortly. In the meantime I want to draw your attention to this cropped image from the 1936 Jack Dempsey book and ask everyone how you interpret the word "new" that it uses on page 11. Would they use the term "new" on a product that was possibly introduced (test marketed) as early as 1932?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And what about this aqua bottle with a paper label and the words Royal Crown Cola "embossed" on the shoulder? This was posted by MCglass on page one and borrowed from another forum thread in which I believe they were never able to date it. It's the only one like it that I've seen with the embossing on the shoulder that isn't a triangle/pyramid with an RC. Notice the paper label doesn't have the 1936 Copyright. The reason I'm drawing attention to these aspects is to emphasize that there are a number of mysteries at play here and not just when the first acl was introduced - with the biggest mystery of all being, what do the LGW 2 through 6 marks represent?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And the biggest mystery of all is this paper label from Allan Petretti's book! When was it used and is it possibly from one of the clear LGW-2 bottles like mine with the pointed pyramid debossed on the shoulder?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

My current research involves trying to determine when the Highland Beverage Company of San Mateo, California was in operation and when they bottled Royal Crown Cola. The following is what's on the label which I originally posted on page two ... 
Neck Label:

1.  Delicious Refreshing

Main Label:

1.  Contents ~ 12 Fluid Oz.
2.  Royal Crown Cola
3.  Special
4.  Extra Quality ~ Blends Deliciously
5.  Highland Beverage Company
6.  Manufacturers
7.  San Mateo, Cal
8.  Telephone 92 
9.  On both sides of the label are the images of a dragon-type Lion


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For starters here's an ad from ... The Times ~ San Mateo, California ~ December 1, *1932* It mentions "Assorted Drinks - All Flavors" but not Royal Crown Cola


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For the record ... The clear RC bottle I received yesterday is absolutely, positively, not a "ghost acl."  If it originally had a label, which I'm sure it did, the label was paper.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Good News ~ Read All About It ... The earliest advertisement for Highland Beverages I can find is dated *1931*. It doesn't mention cola but it does mention "Royal Crown Ginger Ale," which is good enough for me to establish that the mystery cola label is surely from the same time period and possibly 1931 specifically. The latest date for Highland Beverages I can find is 1947, after which it disappears from the archives. There are quite a few ads running from 1931 to 1947 but this is the only one I have been able to find that mentions Royal Crown. This of course doesn't solve all of the mysteries, but I'd say it does shine a bit of light on things.  From ... The Times ~ San Mateo, California ~ March 6, *1931*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Until something presents itself to refute this claim, I am establishing a date to the Allan Petretti Royal Crown Cola paper label as ... *Circa 1931*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I almost forgot about this ad I posted earlier from ... The Times ~ San Mateo, California ~ November 26, *1932*  ( Which, again, is enough to convince me the Allan Petretti paper label is circa "early" 1930s )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Please take this for what it's worth, but I cannot find a double-number Laurens Glass Works mark with a date earlier than 1939 such as 3LGW9. I cannot find a 3LGW7 nor a 3LGW8. But whether this has any bearing on the LGW 2 through 6 marks is still a mystery.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Additionally but Inconclusive ... Because my clear RC bottle has "PROPERTY OF NEHI BOTTLING CO." embossed around the heel, I'd say it cannot date any earlier than *1927-1928*. The reason I mention this is because it leaves the window open for the LGW 2 through 6 marks as possible candidates for 1932 through 1936.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And then there's this tid-bit of information I received from the eBay seller I bought my clear RC bottle from ... Copy/Pasted ... "hey bob , your bottle should arrive to you today...i have been digging for a 
while now and im 99.9 percent sure those clear RCs i dug were 1936 and 
before....this dump site took over a year to dig out with hundreds of sodas 
coming from it..none past 1937....it would not make sense to me that those would 
be the only bottles past 36 or 37 when all the others were before...there is no 
way that its a "ghost letter" bottle either...i know all to well of those and 
this RC had to be paper labels"


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob unrelenting search for the truth, I love it keep up the good work. I'm starting to think the LGW 2 3 4 5 6's are probably the year marks, sure seems to make sense. I personally would love to know thanks for the info.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: Thanks, again. I haven't fully researched the Goodhousekeeping aspect, yet, but as near as I can determine the seals most often seen on Royal Crown Cola bottles are the style that dates between about 1929 and 1941. Around 1941 they added a "Replacement Guarantee" to their seal. Some of the 1929 to 1941 seals use the word "Bureau" and some use "Institute." All of the Royal Crown Cola bottles I've looked at have the word "Bureau."    http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/product-reviews/history/about-good-housekeeping-seal-2


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I received one of the Jack Dempsey/Royal Crown Cola books today and give it a grade of ... 7.5 Fine ~Clean & Subtle White Pages ~Minor Creasing ~Slight breaks along spine ~Staples intact and rust-free ~No browning/foxing ~


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Semi-Summary ... After careful consideration of all the evidence and a careful examination of my clear RC bottle I have arrived at the following ... 1.  I have no problem believing that my clear RC bottle was produced sometime between 1934 and 1936 and that it originally had a paper label which did not include the 1936 Nehi Corporation copyright. 2.  I have a problem believing that my clear RC bottle was produced any earlier than 1934. 3.  I do not know what the LGW 2,3,4,5,6 marks stand for. 4.  I am of the opinion that the earliest RC ACL was produced in 1936.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I am basing my belief of the first Royal Crown Cola acl as being from 1936 entirely on the 1936 Copyright date in the Jack Dempsey book which depicts the image of an acl bottle. I realize that an actual 1936 acl has yet to be found, seen, and confirmed, but I honestly believe they exist! Please be reminded, the bottle cap promotion started around March of 1937. I am confident the book was designed and printed well in advance of the promotion start date.


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob I have eight of the goodhousekeeping bottles they are all in the 1929 style on your pic but all say bureau.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ... There isn't a single ad or reference in the 1935 newspaper archives for Royal Crown Cola!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919 said:
			
		

> Sodapopbob I have eight of the goodhousekeeping bottles they are all in the 1929 style on your pic but all say bureau.



Brad: I didn't mention this earlier, but some of the later RC bottles don't have the Goodhousekeeping seal at all. I'm not sure when they stopped using it but the early 1950s might be close. What's weird (and is another mystery) is that Royal Crown appears to be the only product that used the word "Bureau."  Everything else I've seen uses the word "Institute."   ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: I reread the messages I received from the eBay seller of my clear RC bottle and was reminded they found one of the clear bottles with LGW 6 on the base. They said it was definitely a non-acl and not a ghost acl. And because your clear acl has LGW 6 on the base as well, then that means there are at least two variations of the clear LGW 6 bottles - a non-acl and your acl. I'm not exactly sure what that tells us, but there must be a clue there somewhere. In other words ... 1.  We have definitive proof of a clear *non-acl* LGW 6 RC bottle.2.  We have definitive proof of a clear *acl *LGW 6 Royal Crown Cola bottle.3.  Both of which have PROPERTY OF NEHI BOTTLING CO. embossed on the heel.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

1.  Base of my clear non-acl RC bottle.2.  Base of Brad's clear acl Royal Crown Cola bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

lblackvelvet said:
			
		

> Nice collection dvb..   I checked my RC's and found that I have two 1936 bottles from Va.  One bottle is clear in color from Lynchburg Va.  The other bottle is lite blue in color from Blackstone Va.  Both in excellent shape, but empty......



 lblackvelvet You would really be putting the frosting on the cake if we could see your 1936 bottles Thanks Bob


----------



## dbv1919

sodapopbob here is a few pics for reference on the rc's '37





 '38





 '39





 '40s


----------



## dbv1919

P.S. Sorry some of the pics are sideways not great with my phone.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad:

Not only are those great pictures, they are superb examples of some early Royal Crown Cola bottles. However, they might not be the earliest! Here's what I'm referring to ...

Even though I said earlier I was having a problem believing that my LGW-2 bottle was produced in 1932, after doing some digging with my backhoe I discovered that Royal Crown wasn't the only brand to use the single-number LGW marks. I may not be an expert on early Chero Cola or early Pepsi Cola bottles, but I can't help but wonder if the bottles pictured below with their accompanying links are not in fact 1930s bottles? The pictures aren't the greatest, but when you couple them with the descriptions I think you will agree they are accurately depicted. But whether or not these are actually 1931 and 1932 bottles, I can't say for certain, but they might be. And these aren't the only single-number LGW bottles I found, either - I'm just using them as examples and plan to dig even deeper into this and see what else I can uncover. If I find even one single-number LGW bottle that doesn't follow this trend, such as an obvious 1940s or 1950s acl, then I will declare that and give up on this new search of mine. However, if every single-number LGW mark I find turns out to be on 1930s bottles, then we may have to go back to square-one and seriously consider the possibility that the LGW 2,3,4,5,6 marks might very well be date codes.

Plus, because we know of two RC bottles with the LGW-5 mark (the eBay seller's non-acl and Osiaboyce's acl) that could have been the transition year from paper labels to painted labels.             



1.  Chero Cola LGW 2

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/chero-cola-g-2-soda-bottle-1-fl-oz-87746758

2.  Pepsi Cola LGW 2

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1932-12-oz-pepsi-cola-double-dot-416324945

3.  Pepsi Cola LGW 1 and Pepsi Cola LGW 2

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/pepsi-cola-bottle-double-dot-nc13-290333254


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm having serious doubts that the single-number LGW marks are mold numbers! Because Laurens Glass Works changed the way they marked their bottles over the years, I'm beginning to think the single-number mark was something they did in the 1930s. Please show me a 3LGW0 3LGW1 3LGW2 3LGW3 3LGW4 3LGW5 3LGW6 3LGW7 3LGW8 and I will give up on this experiment of mine.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Osia How does it feel to be the owner of what could "possibly" be the earliest (1935) painted label Royal Crown Cola bottle known?  Howz about a picture of the bottle and the base? Thanks Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because most of us are likely as confused as I am about all of this Royal Crown stuff, I don't see any harm in slinging this one against the wall and see if it sticks or not ...

Do you suppose there is even a remote possibility that the clear non-acl RC bottles like mine are Royal Crown *Ginger Ale* bottles and not Cola bottles? After all, do we really know for certain when the debossed RC was first introduced?

Take a close look at the Royal Crown Ginger Ale bottle in this newspaper ad, which is dated November 26, *1932*. Remember, ginger ale is a clear beverage - but the bottle in the ad is definitely not clear and appears to be dark green.

Now take a close look at the two other bottles pictured - both are dark green, and one of them has a debossed RC on the shoulder. I realize that only the one bottle shows a debossed RC on the shoulder, but I can't help but wonder if there is a connection between all three? Maybe, just maybe the last RC bottle pictured is actually a Ginger Ale bottle and that's where they first came up with debossed RC for the Cola bottles. ???   

Link to paper label bottle:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/super-green-rc-ginger-ale-paper-77478823


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. / Reminder The name "Nehi Bottling Company" was first used in 1927-1928. So the green RC bottle with Nehi embossed on the heel fits the time period. I do not know the exact date of that particular bottle!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Beverage fill line and clear bottle? or ...  Light reflection?


----------



## dbv1919

In West Virginia found a 1941 rc bottle no goodhousekeeping  on back.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad:

Yeah, I looked into that a little closer and discovered it was in the early 1940s and not the early 1950s when
they stopped using the Goodhousekeeping seal, but I never did find an explanation as to why.

Speaking of explanations, I'd like to find one for this ...

Every account I've read about the history of Royal Crown states it was founded in 1905. If this is true, then
how do you explain the information on the last link which shows that various Royal Crown beverages were
included in a food inspection report that was conducted in 1902 and published in 1903? The link might be
a little slow loading at first but will complete itself momentarily. For some reason the report reads side by side
on two separate pages, so keep that in mind as you read it. It will open on Pages 30-31, but be sure to back
scroll to Pages 28-29 for more information. After reading the Royal Crown information, scroll all the way back
to the front pages where you will find the 1902 and 1903 dates.        

Royal Crown History ~ Says 1905
http://www.rccolainternational.com/about_royal_crown_history.aspx


Royal Crown History ~ Four Chapters ~ Says 1905
http://www.rccola.net/rccolastory.htm 

The Bulletin ~ Inspection Report ~ 1902/1903

Includes: Royal Crown Wine Punch ~ Sarsaparilla ~ Ginger Ale ~ Strawberry ~ *1902-**1903*

( I apologize for the long link ~ I was afraid if I shortened it that it wouldn't work ) 

http://books.google.com/books?id=uSc2AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=royal+crown+ginger+ale&source=bl&ots=AJl_yHncko&sig=aOOkiAzvlOEDbYQ2FhxftLN1RpM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mKCTU4vhAZGUyATMo4AQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=royal%20crown%20ginger%20ale&f=false


----------



## dbv1919

SODAPOPBOB- I swear the more I read the more it seems to me the only explanation for the LGW 2 3 4 5 6's almost has to be years. It doesn't make sense to me to put mold #s and not years. I can not find an example of the 3L G W9 style before 1939.And maybe not cola but there is clearly products bearing the royal crown name well before 1934. I would love to have some concrete proof. The boxing ads from 1936 make believe there is a 1936 acl if not a 1935 possibly.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, I can't explain this one, either ... Charlotte News ~ Charlotte, North Carolina ~ August 9, *1902*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ... The 1902-1903 "Bulletin" food inspection report I posted was conducted and published in *North Carolina*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The letters *do *on the inspection report stand for *ditto*


----------



## hemihampton

I don't have the first bottle but do have the first can. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hemihampton:

That's a great can and probably hard to find. What year was it first introduced? And please tell us more such as manufacture, locals, how long in use until they changed it, etc.

~ * ~

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into things, but it is what it is!

This Dr Pepper bottle is currently on eBay and listed by forum member jays-emporium. Notice it has LGW-6 on the base. Also notice in Jay's description where he says it "*was used only in 1951*."  If his claim is correct, as I'm sure it is, then this changes things as to what the LGW single-numbers stand for. I can see no connection between LGW-6 and 1951, so the 6 must stand for something else. But if they are mold numbers, I'm still confused as to why all of them (so far) range between 2 and 6 but no numbers higher or lower than that. And if they are some kind of style/shape number, I don't see a connection there, either. But let's not forget the eBay seller's claim who I bought my clear RC bottle from and who said my bottle came from a dump that dated no later than 1937. If I wasn't confused before, I sure am now!

( Jay:   If you happen to see this, please stop by and tell us more about your Dr Pepper bottle )

~ * ~     

eBay LInk:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231250341790?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Dr Pepper Transition bottle Memphis Tennessee 10-2-4 clock Good For Life green

Description:

"8" tall green-aqua glass machine made crown top soda bottle. Debossed lettering with 10-2-4 clock face 6 1/2 OZS on one side and DR. PEPPER GOOD FOR LIFE on reverse. MEMPHIS, TENN. LGW 6 on base. This style bottle was used only in 1951 as a transition between the clear Good For Life bottle and the greenish 10-2-4 bottle. No chips cracks bruises or stain. Shipping will be by Priority Mail. Will combine shipping on multiple purchases, if you get several bottles I will ship them in a Priority Mail Flat Rate box. Can ship 4 soda bottles for $12.35 or 6 for $17.45 to save you money. See our other auctions for more Dr Pepper bottles. I'll be set up at Citywide Garage Sale show in Belton Texas June 14-15 and Tulsa Bottle Show June 20-21 if you want to pick up bottles there and see other bottles for sale."


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question Of The Day: Is it possible the LGW Single-Numbers represent "Locations" where the Laurens Glass Works bottles were sent to and used? With 6 being for Tennessee?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. How many Laurens Glass Works bottle plants were there?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. How many Laurens Glass Works bottle plants were there?



In answer to my own question about Laurens Glass Works plants, on Page 28 of this article it states ... "Thus in 1959 a second bottle plant opened in Henderson (North Carolina) ..." http://scholarcommons.sc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=lib_facpub


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Thus, I'm currently researching my "Locations Theory," but that could be a tougher nut to crack!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Dr Pepper bottle ... 1.  Clear Glass2.  Debossed3.  LGW *5*4.  Winston-Salem, North Carolina


----------



## M.C.Glass

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Also notice in Jay's description where he says it "*was used only in 1951*."  If his claim is correct, as I'm sure it is, then this changes things as to what the LGW single-numbers stand for. I can see no connection between LGW-6 and 1951, so the 6 must stand for something else. But if they are mold numbers, I'm still confused as to why all of them (so far) range between 2 and 6 but no numbers higher or lower than that. And if they are some kind of style/shape number, I don't see a connection there, either.


 It seems to me that a bottle manufacturer is probably much less concerned with what year a bottle was made, as they are with which mold may be producing defective bottles. As collectors, we're often all about the year.In the era of WW II, did they have bottle machines that made up to 6 bottles at a time? With only one plant until 1959, they might have needed the capacity.As to the LGW numbers ranging between 2 - 6, possible the #1 mold has no number?


----------



## hemihampton

Bob, not sure of first cans date but probably around mid 50's. Here's a pic of the later ones that came after it. LEON.


----------



## acls

I have a 1935 ACL RC.  
Glenshaw glass code "G"
Plant #6 which is Charleston, WV
City identification on bottle is Springfiled, IL


----------



## acls

I can't get my phones to post pictures.  It is clear glass, large RC pyramid ACL, with the debossed triangle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Leon:

Thanks again for the can pictures. Very interesting and a study unto themselves.

~ * ~

acls:

If/When possible, we'd love to see a picture of your 1936 bottle. It sounds like a winner and the frosting on the cake this thread needs.

~ * ~

Regarding bottle making machines and bottle molds ....

The best way I can think of to address this topic is to have you read the information on the following link. It's the most informative one I am aware of. Of special interest is near the bottom of the page where you will see a link to a short film clip. The clip shows two different automatic bottle machines in operation, one from 1906 and the other from 1959. (Be sure and click on the "Full Screen" option for best results). I watched the clip several times, and as near as I can determine, the 1906 machine has about *6 *molds, and the 1959 machine has about *12 *molds.

As to the question about the LGW 2 through 6 numbers, they most definitely could be mold numbers - but I'd say it really depends on what type of machine they came from. After doing some additional reading I discovered that bottle machines were expensive and glass factories continued using them for many, many years. It appears that even if a factory purchased new machines along the way for expansion, they continued using the older machines as well. This suggest that a single factory could have several different machines in use at the same time, some that only had six molds and others that had twelve or more molds.

As to specifics about which type and what capacity the machines were that Laurens Glass Works used in the early to mid 1930s is anybody's guess. But I'd venture to say it's probably a safe bet to assume they had at least one machine that was of the *6*ish mold variety. With this said, I believe there is more evidence to support the mold theory than there is to support any other theories, including my so called location theory.  

"That's all I have to say about that"

Signed:

*Forrest Gump   []  *

Here's the main link - the film clip link is tucked inside near the bottom of the page just past the heading ... "Owens Automatic Bottle Machine"

http://www.sha.org/bottle/glassmaking.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. For the newbies among us now and in the future who might not know, the ACL / Painted Label process was done "after" the bottle left the mold machine. I mention this just in case you were wondering about the different types of machines that glass factories used. The ACL application was an entirely different process than bottle molding and done by an entirely different machine.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

New Clue / New Theory ... While researching Royal Crown Cola I read somewhere that Pepsi Cola was the first to use the 12 ounce bottle and that Royal Crown followed suit "a short time later" by introducing their own 12 ounce bottle. If I'm not mistaken ... "1934--A landmark year for Pepsi-Cola. The drink is a hit and to attract even more sales, the company begins selling its 12-ounce drink for five cents (the same cost as six ounces of competitive colas). The 12-ounce bottle debuts in Baltimore, where it is an instant success. The cost savings proves irresistible to Depression-worn Americans and sales skyrocket nationally." If the 1934 Pepsi Cola date is accurate, and the claim about Royal Crown following suit is also accurate, then that eliminates the LGW 2-3-4 marks from being dates. And if you eliminate three of the numbers as dates, then ya gotta eliminate all of 'em!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. For the time being I am going to assume that my clear 12 ounce RC bottle with LGW-2 on the base and PROPERTY OF NEHI BOTTLING CO. on the heel was produced sometime between *1934* and* 1936*.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> *I was in the process of putting together a Royal Crown Cola timeline of my own when I discovered this one ...*
> 
> 
> http://archives.columbusstate.edu/findingaids/mc204.php
> 
> 
> The following is a timeline for Chero-Cola /Nehi/ Royal Crown Cola:
> 1905 - Claud Hatcher begins creating soft drinks in basement of family grocery store on W. Tenth Street in Columbus, Georgia.1907- Hatcher starts his own bottling works, Union Bottling Works1907- First cola called Chero-Cola, first beverage Royal Crown, a ginger ale1911 - Family grocery discontinued to concentrate on soft drinks.1912- Company name changes to Chero-Cola Co. And sells syrups and concentrates to bottlers under Chero-Cola trademark.1912- Begins selling to franchises, first one in Dawson, Georgia1914 - Lawsuit by Coca Cola over trademark use of "cola"; not won till19441917- WW I Sugar crisis limits use of sugar in soft drinks. Chero-Cola imports and refines Cuban sugar for 3 years.1920- After stockpiling sugar, price drops to 8 cents/pound creating financial hardship1922-26- Shipping practices change from syrup to concentrates, saving container and freight costs and making a fresher taste.1924-1928 Hatcher begins Nehi, a fruit flavored line- orange, grape, root beer1928 - Name changes to Nehi Corporation with stock listed on NY Curb Exchange1929-1932 - Stock market crashes and company loses money for first time1932 - Par-T-Pak introduced in quart size1933- Claud A. Hatcher dies suddenly. His will establishes the Pickett-Hatcher Educational Fund, providing education for millions1934- H.R. Mott becomes second president, reduces debt and streamlines Operations1934- New cola introduced, Royal Crown, using same name as Hatcher's first Ginger ale1934 - New RC Cola first bottled in Dothan, Alabama1934-35 - RC introduces 12 oz. Bottles; 2 full glass for 5 cents1940- Mott becomes chairman of the board and C.C. Colbert becomes president.1946 - Nehi advertises with national celebrities.1950's - RC's and Moonpie, the "working man's lunch" - new advertising Campaign1954- First to nationally introduce a soft drink can1955 -Wilber H. Glenn becomes president.1959 - Third corporate name change to Royal Crown Cola Co.1962- Diet Rite Cola introduced with great success1965-16 oz. Bottle introduced1969 - Bill Durkee becomes president.1969- Cyclamate (sugar substitute) banned by FDA as a carcinogen1975 - RC moves corporate headquarters to Atlanta.2000- Royal Crown acquired by Cadbury-Schweppes and then to Dr. Pepper Seven-Up, Inc.2001 - International RC business sold to Cott Beverages of Ontario



*This timeline might be accurate after all.*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As I said earlier, the earliest mention of Royal Crown *Cola *I can find in the newspaper archives is from 1936. There are ample examples from 1936 and most of them mention 12 ounce bottles. However, this doesn't mean that Royal Crown *Ginger Ale *isn't found in the 1935 newspapers, because it is. And it even mentions 12 ounce bottles. Check it out!

From ...

Corsicana Daily Sun ~ Corsica, Texas ~ June 7, *1935* 

[ Ironically, this ad appeared exactly 79 years ago *yesterday *]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The latest newspaper date I have been able to find for Royal Crown Ginger Ale is *1942*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I know I'm crazy, but let's set that aside for the moment and take another look at this ad I posted earlier. Am I seeing things or is that a triangle I seen on the (paper) neck label of this Royal Crown Ginger Ale bottle? Reminder: This is not the paper label with the camel on it. Nor is it the mysterious Royal Crown Cola paper label from the Allan Petretti book. The label depicted here is the only one like it I have seen and I cannot find another one. From ... San Mateo Times ~ San Mateo, California ~ November 26, 1932


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

All I can tell you about this paper label is that it ... 1.  Depicts a lady (Queen?) wearing a crown2.  Has Royal Crown Ginger Ale3.  Has Union Bottling Works4.  Has Columbus, Georgia5.  Is diamond shaped ( or as I prefer to say - two triangles connected [] )6.  Likely dates to the early 1900s / Teens  ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hmmm ... I wonder if my clear RC bottle is a Ginger Ale bottle from the 1930s that's missing it's paper label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or is it a clear RC *Cola *bottle from the 1930s that's missing it's paper label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Final analysis regarding my clear RC bottle ... *

1.    Clear Glass
2.    Debossed RC inside a triangle on shoulder
3.    PROPERTY OF NEHI BOTTLING CO. embossed on heel 
4.    CONTENTS 12 FL OZS embossed on base
5.    LGW 2 embossed on base
6.    Most likely had two paper labels - one main label and one shoulder label
7.    Produced circa 1936**  [1934 1935 *1936 *1937 1938] ?
8.    Most likely one of if not the earliest Royal Crown Cola bottles produced
9.    Dug from a dump in South Carolina
10.  Overall condition good with scratches, rust stains, small crack on heel
11.  Possibly a rare and extremely hard to find bottle in any condition
12.  Estimated value in described condition = $20.00 / $50.00 if in mint condition

*    Based on extensive research and various other observations
**  Circa 1936 date arrived at because this is the only year I could find an image of a similar bottle in the newspaper archives or from any other source. It could have been produced earlier or later than 1936, but doubtful any earlier than 1934

Note:  I paid $5.00 plus $8.00 for shipping = $13.00

In a communication with the seller after I purchased the bottle, they said when they found the bottle, and several others like it, that it never dawned on them that it might be the first Royal Crown Cola bottle ever produced. 

Attachments:

1.  The bottle
2.  Paper Label
3.  Cropped image from The Evening Sun ~ Hanover, Pennsylvania ~ October 8, 1936

Compare the paper label from the 1936 newspaper ad to the color paper label - Notice the Good Housekeeping seal on the shoulder label of both. Also notice in the newspaper image that the shoulder label is applied on top of the debossed RC.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

13.  Estimated value in mint condition with original paper labels still intact = $100.00+


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob I'm as confused as ever oh well, I'll keep looking for Royal Crown ACL's from 36 and back. Heading to florida in a couple days maybe I might run across something as travel through the south. Hell been looking for years until I see an ACL 36 and back Owens Illinois bottle I guess I'll never be sure. Thanks for the great information.


----------



## squirtbob

Bob,  I don't know whether this helps or adds to the confusion but I picked this bottle up today because of what I've read on this post.  It's a Lime-Cola bottle.  The bottom is marked LGW at the top and 1 on the bottom.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: I think the primary confusion is with single-number LGW marks. I'm still looking into that but information is sparse at best. The snippet below is from *1952 *and indicates the number of bottle making machines Laurens Glass Works had at the time. I am currently trying to find information on the "Lynch" and "Hartford" machines and will hopefully be able to determine how many molds each of them had. I realize that 1952 is about twenty years later than the focus of this thread, but at this point anything I can find is considered a plus. ~ * ~ Squirtbob: Your Lime-Cola bottle is a huge help! Now we have a complete sequence of 1 through 6. Now we just need to figure out what the numbers indicate - and if mold numbers as I now suspect - to confirm that. 1952 ~ Seven Lynch IS Machines and Five Hartford IS machines (At least I think that's an IS ???)


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## dbv1919

Sodapopbob and Squirtbob I got a bottle with LGW markings that's very similar to yours but its different from my LGW 6 bottle. The good thing about this particular bottle is I have two identical bottles from the same year, 1938 that are OI bottles. I am 99.99999 percent sure this bottle is from 1938 by ACL and neck embossement. I just don't think it's a number one after looking closely. Looks to me like more of a rectangular shape than a #1. Also the placement seems odd. The light in the pic does look like a #1 but in person it doesn't.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Brad: I think because it's a single-digit LGW is enough to suggest that it's the same type of mark irregardless as to what the actual number might be. Good information and very helpful. Speaking of helpful, I hope this sheds some light on things. Even though it's inconclusive*, it is at least one example of a *six mold bottle making machine from the 1930s*, and possibly typifies the type and size of machines used during that time period. Sometimes coincidences lead to connections!  [light] Filed: August 19, 1929Patented: July 31, 1934Invented By: Edward G. Bridges / Assignor to the *Lynch Corporation*. * Inclusive as to whether Laurens Glass Works actually used a machine of this type. But based on the 1952 snippet I posted, we know they did use Lynch machines. Patent Link: http://www.google.com/patents/US1968777


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## SODAPOPBOB

Although inconclusive, I just took a crash course on bottle making machines and looked at more patents than I can count from the early 1900s and well into the 1950s. The bottom line is, six mold machines were very common in the early days and in the 1950s the majority of the machines I saw averaged no more than about ten molds. Based on this quick search of mine, I think it's safe to say there is a very strong likelihood that the single-number LGW marks 1 through 6 are *mold/cavity numbers *and not dates.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I suspect we might never know for certain "WHY" Laurens Glass Works marked some of their bottles in a certain manner and others in a different manner. And as for the earliest Royal Crown Cola bottles, I'm personally still leaning toward ... 1.  Clear bottle with paper label = Circa 1934 (At the earliest)2.  Clear bottle (possibly aqua bottle as well ?) with painted label/acl = 1935 (At the earliest)


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is a "just for the fun of *it*" post that I think everyone will enjoy. But first, please be reminded that Grubb Bottling in Dothan, Alabama was one of the first bottlers to test market Royal Crown Cola in 1934. Now look at this ad and ask yourself if someone in Dothan, especially someone with Dixie Bottling, ever connected the dots back to this ad after Royal Crown Cola took the world by storm? Chances are it was a one time ad and that was the end of it.

From ...

The Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama ~ June 10, *1909*

( I never heard of "*IT COLA*" before )


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## SODAPOPBOB

Key word = "*TWICE*" Coincidence or Connection? 1.  19362.  1909


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## SODAPOPBOB

Another ...

"Coincidence or Connection?"

Key Words =  *TRY *~ *IT *~ *SAY*


1.  Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama 1909 
     (Town where Royal Crown Cola was test marked in 1934)

2.  Dothan Eagle ~ Dothan, Alabama 1947
     (Just one of numerous ads nationwide during the time when celebrities endorsed
     Royal Crown Cola. In almost every ad they used the phrase "Try it! Say, RC for me."


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## SODAPOPBOB

And there's this from *Columbus, Georgia*. Columbus, Georgia is where Royal Crown Cola was invented. 1.  IT'S-A COLA ~ 1913-1914


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## SODAPOPBOB

This Royal Crown Cola bottle is currently on eBay, and even though the seller doesn't appear to be familiar with LGW marks, it will serve as a good example that Laurens Glass Works did indeed mark their bottles with double-numbers in *1942*. I realize the question is still unanswered as to "why" Laurens Glass Works discontinued the practice of using double-numbers on Royal Crown Cola bottles at one point, but it appears they stared using it again at least as early as 1942.

Copy/Pasted from seller's description ... 

The back of the bottle near the base (raised in glass) has the following  "4 L G W 2"


http://www.ebay.com/itm/251552983401?_trksid=p2048036


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here are a couple of clues of sorts - or possibly just more confusion ... 

Both of these bottles are currently on eBay and both have pictures of LGW marks.

I'm confident the first bottle is a 1940s or 1950s, and yet it has *3 LGW 6 *on the base.

I'm confident the second bottle is a 1953 but not sure what the seller means about "44 or 42"

Notice both bottles have the number *583. *I am assuming this is a style/shape/color number.

Also notice one bottle has an *8 *and the other has a *14*. I am assuming those are mold numbers.

~ * ~ 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-10-oz-Red-Yellow-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-Soda-Bottle-Greensboro-NC-/141301573970?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e63ae952

Copy/Pasted from seller's description ...

On the bottom, is embossed lettering including:  “583 8” and 3 L G W 6”. 


~ * ~

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-10-oz-Red-Yellow-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-Soda-Bottle-Charlotte-NC-/111366042695?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19edeef447

Copy/Pasted from seller's description ...

On the bottom, is embossed lettering including:  “583 14” and 5 L G W 3”.  The center, with the date, is extremely worn.  It looks like the year is “44” or “42”, but even those are guesses. 

~ * ~

1.  3 LGW 6

2.  5 LGW 3


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I suspect the seller of the 1953 bottle is seeing things in the stippling/textured bumps on the base of the bottle and somehow came up with the "44 or 42"


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. I suspect the seller of the so called 3 LGW 6 bottle is misreading the first number and that it's not a 3 but a melted 5 But the main points here is to establish three things ... 1.  Laurens Glass Works started using double-numbers again 2.  To draw attention to the number 583 3.  To draw attention to the numbers 8 and 14


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## SODAPOPBOB

Laurens Glass Works did a $600,000 expansion in *1945 *and had 13 bottle making machines at the time. Read all about it!  http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19451129&id=elksAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AcsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2374,2434940


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## SODAPOPBOB

Correction ... After taking a closer look at the article, I believe it was 12 machines and not 13.  But whatever the total count was, prior to the expansion they only had *3 machines*. Based on what I've learned about such things recently, more machines equate to bigger machines, which in turn equate to more molds per machine, which in turn equate to higher mold numbers on the bottles, which might explain the 8 and the 14 numbers on the 1950s bottles I posted earlier.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Correction / Correction Dang! The way they word things in the article it's hard to make sense of it at first. But having reread it for the tenth time, I now see where each "tank" (molten glass) involved three machines, so three tanks equals nine machines and four tanks equals twelve machines. In other words ... 1.  They had three tanks and nine machines prior to the expansion. 2.  They had four tanks and twelve machines after the expansion. But still helpful information for my ongoing search to try and figure out the reason why some of their bottles (like the 1 through 6 examples) did not include date codes. There's got to be an explanation someplace - but where?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still researching the Royal Crown/Laurens Glass Works connection and along the way found this ... 
This link pertains to a legal proceedings involving Royal Crown Bottling vs. the IRS and is dated 1954. It has a ton of interesting information, especially where it says ... 

"Nehi, Inc., first tested Royal Crown Cola, a cola drink in a 12-ounce bottle, in 1934, and the testing continued through 1935. The year 1936 was the first year in which Royal Crown Cola was in commercial production. In that year Nehi started its extensive advertising of Royal Crown Cola. The Chero Cola Bottling Company sold Royal Crown Cola throughout the year 1936. Prior to 1939, such advertising was on a local or plant-by-plant basis, in conjunction with the advertising of Nehi representatives and an advertising agency in Atlanta, Georgia. Nehi supplied its bottlers with advertising material. In 1938 Nehi engaged Batton, Barton, Dursten and Osborne of New York to undertake national advertising of Royal Crown Cola, and this program was under way in 1939."

Note:  I'm not certain how accurate the information is, but I especially like the parts that say ...

1.   The testing continued through 1935.

2.   The year 1936 was the first year in which Royal Crown Cola was in commercial production.


http://www.leagle.com/decision/195471022cjtc688_1623.xml/ROYAL%20CROWN%20BOTTLING%20CO.%20v.%20COMMISSIONER


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The information I posted in my last reply might be the best explanation yet as to why the 1935 newspaper archives do not contain a single Royal Crown Cola article/ad but explode with them in the 1936 newspapers.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The earliest Royal Crown Cola advertisement I've found is from April of 1936, but it's just a snippet from the classified section and doesn't include any details. This one starts out with "*Stop the presses ... *" and is the earliest I can find that uses the term "*new*" From ... The Evening Sun ~ Hanover, Pennsylvania ~ October 1, 1936


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is a reminder/update for those who might have lost track of things along the way.

According to the most reliable information available to me, the earliest Royal Crown Cola bottles timeline is as follows ...

1934 through 1936:

1.  Clear glass
2.  Debossed trapezoid on shoulder with RC
3.  12 Ounce
4.  Paper labels on front and on shoulder with pyramids
5.  Shoulder label has Good Housekeeping seal
6.  Does not have 1936 Copyright on paper label
7.  Property of Nehi Bottling Co.

Note:  It appears there was a transition period starting in 1936 when paper labels as well as painted labels were both used simultaneously depending on who bottled it and where. Some of the smaller bottlers likely used the paper labels longer than did the larger bottlers.

1936:

1.  First ACL / Painted label introduced
2.  Clear (and possibly aqua) glass
3.  Debossed trapezoid on shoulder with RC
4.  Front painted label with RC and pyramids
5.  Does not have 1936 Copyright on painted label
6.  Back painted label has large Good Housekeeping seal
7.  12 Ounce
8.  Property of Nehi Bottling Co.

I am not aware of ...

1.  An ACL earlier than 1936
2.  A 1936 aqua colored bottle - although there might be

And still hoping and waiting to see a picture of a 1936 ACL  []


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I forgot to mention that no confirmed examples of 1934 and 1935 bottles have surfaced either but all the indicators suggest they exist. It could be that my clear RC bottle and others like it are from 1934 or 1935 but this has yet to be determined.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Hold The Press!*

According to this eBay seller, the 1934 Royal Crown promo, test market bottles looked like the one pictured below. I have pictures of a similar bottle in my files along with a picture of the root beer variation, but this is the first time I've seen a clear picture of the heel where it is embossed with ...  "*Nehi Bottling*"  I wasn't sure by who or when these bottles were produced, but because it has Nehi Bottling, it has to be from 1928 or later when Chero-Cola changed it's name to the Nehi Corporation. It's starting to look as if the Royal Crown embossed beverage bottles are not from the 1910s era as I previously thought. And because the name Nehi is on the bottle, this temporarily changes things for me and needs additional research. If the fully embossed bottles (with the word Beverages and not Root Beer) were the bottles used to test market Royal Crown Cola in 1934, then it's possible the clear RC bottles like mine were introduced around 1935-1936 following the test market period.

Here's the eBay link ~ unfortunately the only two pictures still active are the one's posted below.(I slightly enhanced the color of the heel picture) 

Http://www.ebay.ca/itm/RAREST-ROYAL-CROWN-COLA-PROMO-BOTTLE-RC-NEHI-BOTTLING-CO-2ND-TIME-EBAY-/161233264698


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Don't miss reading this, which is at the very bottom of the eBay description ... [align=center]*Notes from a friendly ebayer I thought I'd pass along :*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]* Dear Seller;  These bottles were the introductory bottles beginning in 1934.  They are known from Baton Rouge, LA; Birmingham, AL; Jackson, MS;  Lufkin, TX; Meridian, MS; Morgan City, LA; and Shreveport, LA.  The  plain ones are considered to be company bottles from Columbus.  Even  harder, are the companion bottles that have the terms: ROOT BEER!  *[/align][align=center]*Michael Elling, Sharon, Tennessee*[/align]


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## SODAPOPBOB

I can't believe I never fully researched the embossed Royal Crown Beverages bottles, but for some reason I just never did until now. 
Here are some links to more examples of the embossed Royal Crown *Beverages *bottles. According to the various descriptions, some of the bottles are marked with L's*. *I'm not sure if the L's stand for *L*aurens Glass Works or something else. Nor do I know if they are date marks, mold numbers, or something else. However, the one marked with *LG* sure has my attention.  


Marked *3R  *(Three Rivers Glass Company)

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/embossed-royal-crown-beverages-77707541


Marked *LG*

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/embossed-royal-crown-beverages-bottle-152960655


Marked *L3*

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/royal-crown-beverages-embossed-soda-151904771


Marked *L4*

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1930s-royal-crown-beverages-bottle-rare-ex


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## SODAPOPBOB

Someone has to ask the obvious question(s), so I guess I'm elected ... [8|] Is it even remotely possible ... That L3 stands for Laurens Glass Works 1933? (Bottles ordered and produced prior to test marketing) That L4 stands for Laurens Glass Works 1934? (Bottles produced during test marketing)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Will the real Royal Crown Cola test market bottle please stand up!  []


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Will the real Royal Crown Cola test market bottle please stand up ...* *BEHOLD!* *This is an example of a Royal Crown Cola test market bottle and the type that C. R. Grubb bottled in Dothan, Alabama in ...  * *1934 *


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## dbv1919

SODAPOPBOB that's awesome where in the world did you find it?


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## dbv1919

P.S. I'm on vacation in fl. and been looking for any old rc's with no luck but did find an owens Illinois 1935 jumbo cola this morning.


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## dbv1919

P.S. I'm on vacation in fl. and been looking for any old rc's with no luck but did find an owens Illinois 1935 jumbo cola this morning.


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## iggyworf

This has been an awesome thread about Royal crown. I learned alot reading the post. . Thanx to everyone who put in there 2cents and them some.. I have 2 RC bottles but nothing that old. A 1956 & 71 both from Michigan.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Brad / dbv1919 The picture of the 1934 test bottle was sent to me in response to an inquiry I made via email. The individuals who sent it to me did not disclose where they got it but assured me it is definitely the 1934 test market bottle I described. I sent them a follow up to see if they could tell me what the small print is below the word "COLA," but I have not heard back from them yet. The only thing I can say about the small print myself is, I'm pretty sure it does not say "Minimum Contents 12 Fluid Ounces" like the other paper label says. Compare the labels below and notice the small print on the 1934 bottle extends well 'outside' of the word "COLA" whereas it is right in line with the word "COLA" on the other label ... If anyone can make out what the small print says, please let us know ~ Thanks Note:  The more I crop and enlarge the image, the blurrier it gets!  [:-]


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found this NEHI ad the other day and thought it was interesting because it shows the various flavors available as of *1928*. I can't imagine "Banana" being a very popular flavor - yuck!  [] From ... The Bee ~ Danville, Virginia ~ May 6, 1928


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I forgot to mention the 1928 NEHI ad also says there were *2250* plants [bottlers] in the nation at the time.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This identical Royal Crown Cola article appeared in numerous newspapers coast to coast on the same exact day, April 15, 1942, and was no doubt coordinated by the parent company to hit the newspapers at the same time. Notice the reference to 1934. Of equal interest is that it gives the impression their 1934 bottle was a 12 ounce. I'm not sure if the amber test market bottle I posted is a 12 ounce, but it might be. Initially I thought it was a 6 ounce. The individuals who sent the picture to me did not say. Other than the label itself, there is very little about the picture to indicate scale or the bottle's size. In the post following this one I will show an example of scale and see if that tells us anything.

The article is from ...

The Hutchinson News ~ Hutchinson, Kansas ~ April 15, 1942


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the test market bottle alongside an amber Pepsi Cola bottle and believe 
the Pepsi bottle is from about the same time period. The Pepsi bottle is from a 
2013 forum thread by jblaylock, which I chose because his hand helps to indicate 
scale. I'm pretty sure the Pepsi bottle is a 12 ounce - but still not sure about 
the size of the Royal Crown bottle. However, I'm leaning toward it being a 12 ounce. ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the test market bottle alongside a later Royal Crown paper label bottle. The labels look about the same size to me - as do the bottles themselves.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't heard back from the people who sent me the picture of the 1934 test bottle but I have been doing some zooming/etc of the label and so far have come up with the following. Please note that my examination of the label is still preliminary and because of a key missing section I am not certain what that missing word is. The words/letters that are in *bold *print below are the one's I am fairly certain about, but the others are definitely questionable ...

*NEHI  BOTTLING  C*???*O*N  *& *NEWTON *CORP* Highly questionable are the ??? - the N after the *O* - and NEWTON


Note:  I found several references for a Douglas A. Newton who was a Royal Crown Cola bottler in Del Rio, Texas during the 1940s but otherwise have not been able to connect him to any test marketing. Plus, I'm not 100% certain the word on the label is Newton, but it could very well be.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is the best I can do with enlarging the 1934 label and hope it post well enough for everyone to examine the small print below the word COLA. Although somewhat distorted in this particular image, that's a capital *W *on the pyramid on the right and is not a tear in the paper ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's a close up of the 1934 bottle's neck which has little *S**tars / X's / Dots *embossed around it


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## M.C.Glass

The word showing after Bottling C[o] could be (P)ortsmouth, to my eye.But, NH? VA? England? No, probably not England.


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## dbv1919

It  looks like Portsmouth to me. There is a Portsmouth Ohio just across the river from Huntington WV where a Owens Illinois plant was.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, guys!  Good work!  I think you both hit a homerun! My current vote is for ... *NEHI BOTTLING CO.   PORTSMOUTH, OHIO* 1.  Portsmouth Daily Times ~ Portsmouth, Ohio ~ June 14, *1929* 2.  Portsmouth Daily Times ~ Portsmouth, Ohio ~ September 22, *1939* I found an article stating the company relocated in 1936 but kept the same phone number *284* ( I don't know what the blurred-out picture was supposed to be in the 1929 ad )


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## SODAPOPBOB

SLIGHTY EDITED ... ( Any thoughts regarding the capital *W *)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Variation ...  ( I like this one the best )


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## dbv1919

Sodapopbob- I live about 2 1/2 or so hours away and have been through there 8 or 10 times ever, but if I remember I think West Portsmouth isn't actually connected to the rest of town. I'm thinking the river separates it. Can't quite remember.  I don't think that would matter but my only guess.


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## SODAPOPBOB

There is a possibility that the letter is a capital *M *and not a W - it's really hard to tell no matter how many times I zoom and/or edit/enlarge it. And if it is an *M*, the first thing that comes to mind is ... *M*ott 1934- H.R. Mott becomes second president, reduces debt and streamlines Operations.
1934- New cola introduced, Royal Crown, using same name as Hatcher's first Ginger ale. H. R. Mott was the individual who instructed chemist Rufus Kamm to develop the new cola.


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## SODAPOPBOB

New Discovery ... The Royal Crown Ginger Ale paper label (date unknown) also has a W or M on the pyramid.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Another new discovery ... 1.  Take a close look at the 1934 test market label and you will see the word *FLUID *below Cola. 2. Now compare it to this (date unknown) paper label from Grand Rapids, Michigan and you will    notice where the *Minimum Contents 12 Fluid Ounces *is tucked between the word Cola and    the location information.


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## SODAPOPBOB

One More ... This paper label is a total mystery, but the "pointed" RC and palm trees sure are interesting ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just putting all three of these images in one place for future examination ...


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## M.C.Glass

Can anyone tell me how old this RC bottle is? My impression is that it's a *fairly* recent commemorative bottle, but is it '70s, '90s, or newer?Many sellers refer to it as vintage. Y'know, they're all from 1936. I don't think so.[attachment=RC Commem.jpg]


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## dbv1919

90's reproduction


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## OsiaBoyce

2000s re-issues...................................they're every where.


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## dbv1919

Anybody finding any cool unusual ACL royal crowns?


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## iggyworf

Nothing lately. I always keep an eye out for them.


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## dbv1919

My latest Royal Crown


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## iggyworf

Great display!


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## Eric

Wow! Let's back that camera up a bit and see more of that collection... All full?
Love seeing collections... Nice to see what others find and collect... Those look
to be in great shape for older Royal Crown ACL bottles. The color red usually
seems to not hold up so well but those look killer! Great line up!


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## dbv1919

Thanks I prefer them full. Been keeping them a long time.


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## webe142

This is an older thread, so hope yall are still active.  I was drawn to it because of the discussion of a clear embossed RC bottle.  I recently found an unusual one of my own.  This was made by the 3 Rivers Glass company in Texas.  Also note that the debossed RC stands alone.  Not inscribed in a triangle.


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## Jstorm

dbv1919 said:


> Hey, just a question, has anyone ever saw an RC bottle ACL older than a 1936? From the left 1936, 1937, 1937 debossed and 1938 and 1938 embossed. Thanks, Brad


Have you checked with weides soda page. He is an expert on Acls. He has about 30 thousand soda bottles.  You can look up certain things you need to know. Check him out. !


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