# Historical geometric flask find!



## MuddyMO (Sep 26, 2015)

Today at the antique store, found this beauty hiding between some crap. Almost missed it!

GVIII-2 in a beautiful grassy green


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## Robby Raccoon (Sep 26, 2015)

Very interesting-looking.


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## sunrunner (Sep 27, 2015)

some thing looks odd about it.


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## sandchip (Sep 27, 2015)

Yeah, looks like there's not as much taper from top to bottom as usually seen, but if it's being held at an angle to the camera, parallax would account for that.  Looks like a Keene piece at first glance.  More pictures would help.  Fingers crossed for you, 'cause what a great score this might be!


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## cowseatmaize (Sep 27, 2015)

You may want to check it in the repro section of McKearin/Wilson. I've seen a few of the repros bottles and they're good.


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## nhpharm (Sep 28, 2015)

Fairly certain this is a reproduction-some additional photos would help.  The GVIII-2's were reproduced many years ago and they were very well done.  I believe McKearin/Wilson tells the story.  This exact color is one I have seen several of the reproductions done in.


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## nhpharm (Sep 28, 2015)

Fairly certain this is a reproduction-some additional photos would help.  The GVIII-2's were reproduced many years ago and they were very well done.  I believe McKearin/Wilson tells the story.  This exact color is one I have seen several of the reproductions done in.


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## MuddyMO (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm curious why the assumption on it being a repro (honestly curious)? It's held at an angle in the pic, yes, but the flask is there and details, and mold shape is just as a GVIII-2 has. There is a sticky glass pontil scar (with minor pontil scar bruise), the bottom mold seam is there, and there is some base wear, and high point wear on the motif and bands. The color is one of the known colors it appears in. Weighs just about two pounds. It was compared against a Heckler listing, in which it is nearly identical in all aspects. Marlboro Glass Works, Keene NH is apparently where it was made.

The repros I compared against are not the same, and has a wet glass look. Not one repro I found comes in this known color, and they seem quite different and discernable from real ones. I searched and ensured that this flask was the real for seemingly hour's.


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## MuddyMO (Sep 28, 2015)

Ah, and there is some spotty haze.


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## MuddyMO (Sep 28, 2015)

Here it is compared to a few others


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## 2find4me (Sep 28, 2015)

A few more very detailed pics would help determine if it is the real deal... such as close-ups of the pontil, lip, and neck. There were some very realistic reproductions made, I'm not saying yours is one though.


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## saratogadriver (Sep 29, 2015)

MuddyMO said:
			
		

> I'm curious why the assumption on it being a repro (honestly curious)? It's held at an angle in the pic, yes, but the flask is there and details, and mold shape is just as a GVIII-2 has. There is a sticky glass pontil scar (with minor pontil scar bruise), the bottom mold seam is there, and there is some base wear, and high point wear on the motif and bands. The color is one of the known colors it appears in. Weighs just about two pounds. It was compared against a Heckler listing, in which it is nearly identical in all aspects. Marlboro Glass Works, Keene NH is apparently where it was made.
> 
> The repros I compared against are not the same, and has a wet glass look. Not one repro I found comes in this known color, and they seem quite different and discernable from real ones. I searched and ensured that this flask was the real for seemingly hour's.



 No ones assuming it's a repro, they are just advising caution and asking for more info.  One big red flag would be your definition of a "sticky glass" pontil.   Keene stuff, IIRC, usually comes with your standard, American, ring shaped blowpipe type of pontil.   What I think of as a sticky glass pontil, sort of a solid blob of glass on the bottom, would be not correct.   Several have said there are some REALLY GOOD repros of this form, meaning good enough to fool many collectors.   Show a pic of the base and the neck up close.   That'll help the experts on here to give you better opinions. Jim G


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 29, 2015)

I say its a reppro


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 29, 2015)

I say its a reppro


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 29, 2015)

The neck the top the whole thing looks wrong. Way to crisp


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## MuddyMO (Sep 30, 2015)

RICKJJ59W said:
			
		

> The neck the top the whole thing looks wrong. Way to crisp


 Well. now that you say that, I'm quite unsure of myself and my ability to see antique glass. I've even asked to be put on the transplant list at the hospital for new eyes. Joking aside, here's what I've deduced. By the way, now I have spent hours and hours of researching GVIII-2, and have lost interest in the shape of this flask. I absolutely adored the shape and bands that make this flask so unique! Reproduction Mold Characteristics: Two reproduction molds in which I found.1.) There is one mold in which the top bezel (rings below spout) bears a triangular shape, and the spout is completely tubular without any trace of mold line. It is obviously a reproduction, and the examples seen have the spout almost as wide as the top band. A fake pontil has been placed on the base, and there is no sign of a mold line traversing the base. The base is not the same shape as a real example, the dimensions of the entire bottle are off as a result. 2.) There is another mold in which the features are more alike to the real GVIII-2, and seemingly is a fit for the real thing. From what is evident, the sunburst details are less detailed towards the center, and even fade into nothing. Tiny details from the mold have been lost. The sunburst motif seems to not have a prominent outer edge on the relief (meaning, it ain't sticking out from the plain background independently, it mostly blends together with the background). The bands seems to be very close, if not almost exact, to the real flask. The spout varies slightly, but seems to not have any mold line trace in it. Base has a fake pontil applied, no evidence of a mold line traversing the base. So, from these two molds, already there are differences that stand out in the example I have in hand.a.) Mold line traversing the baseb.) Pontil scar has evidence of being a functioning part of the manufacture process, due to jagged parts of the pontil and a small bruise on the edge of the pontil where it meets the mold line. 'Sticky pontil' was the term applied to the GVIII-2's pontil type, and it is similar in manner to the GVIII-29's pontil that was next to it.c.) Spout has traces of the mold line going up the sides, as do many shear top flasks. Here are some additional notes on the flask I have in hand;a.) There are pieces of firebrick within the glass, and the largest being an 1/8" at it's widest on the sunburst.b.) On the mold seams along the bands about 2/3's the way down, is a bit of excess glass on both sides.c.) The flask weighs 2lbs. 4oz., and is thick. d.) Slightly uneven base despite the pontil.e.) There is base wear, and high point wear consistent with age.f.) The spout has some junk in glass, including 'spit' (tiny bubbles in a streak) and firebrick. Compared to other sheared lip flasks around the same time of manufacture, this is a consistent occurrence in about 20 shear tops I examined (yes, all of them real historical flasks). There are tool marks to the inside of the spout, and also at the very edge, annealing fissures to the inside (which occur in almost all the shear tops I looked at).g.) The details in the flask are crisp, however, the glass is mildly whittled and shows crudeness in the base and where there is no decoration. h.) There are a couple small patches of interior haze.  So, with all this information, I finally saw many of the unique features of my flask visibly occur in most all of the real GVIII-2's. Letters a and b were very apparent in a Heckler auction 105, Lot 110 (GVIII-2), as the color also matches up pretty closely.Here, I have combined two pictures. On the left is my flask in hand. On the right, the flask from the Heckler auction. Note the sunburst, especially the left center, and center. In the center, there are tiny little pits and dimples that are noticeable. In both flasks, they match up EXACT (I tried to get close to the same angle held, but it is seen). Secondly, the left of center rays come together a little funny, and this is most visible in both flasks (and other real GVIII-2's). There is a protrusion in the shape of a pizza slice, kinda best way to describe it. It is located at the ray base at center, third and fourth ray to the left (the 11 o'clock position). 

 Here's my summarized assessment of the dang flask.I believe, from the time spent looking at countless fake and real GVIII-2's, that the tiny pits and features on the sunburst are enough to at least merit that the flask in hand could be real, especially since the fakes seem to have very little, if any, detail towards the center of the starburst. Back to the firebrick pieces. This is probably more important than the sunburst, because you see firebrick in antique glass. It's a good sign! I've seen my fair share of repro Clevenger junk, and things made near and at the TOC, and they happen to lack this intrusive nuisance almost every time. The presence of the firebrick makes me optimistic in it not only being hand blown, but also very old. Well, then there's the excess glass on the mold seam sides. Unfortunately, the excess has a little nibbling, but this unique feature is noticeable in many real GVIII-2's. Take a gander, even the Heckler example I referred to exhibits this. This seems to be an indicator of a two-piece mold (please correct me if I'm wrong). I am further assuming that the spout is part of the mold, and the glass finisher tools it to the criteria he sees fit. The position of the base of the spout is nearly identical in all GVIII-2's, however, the overall length, shape, and mid to top width varies due to individual tooling. Then, there's all the high point and base wear. Base wear could be faked, but, high point wear seems to be very unlikely to be faked. The methods of grinding the glass to trick would be consistent and methodical, but alas, it just looks a little worn out like most the other historical flasks in the collection.  I could continue, and reiterate almost all the points seen on the GVIII-2, but some will stand firm it is fake, other's will feel that it is real (then there's you who doesn't give a hoot!). Ultimately, I still see absolutely not a single piece of evidence demonstrating that it is a reproduction. Trust me, my mind is open to the possibility of it being fake. Upon first holding it, the thought of it being fake crossed my mind, just because of the improbability. But looking at other examples and studying the bottle closely fortified my conclusion that the flask is indeed real. Until there is more evidence thrown my way,good day!


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## Robby Raccoon (Sep 30, 2015)

Very strong case you make, Muddy.


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## CazDigger (Sep 30, 2015)

All of the real GVIII-2's have that type of pontil. Hard to say for sure from here but it looks good to me.


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## andy volkerts (Oct 1, 2015)

This is why I don't collect historic flasks,  There are too many fakes and repros out there, BUT this looks good to me, especially if there is firebrick in the glass!! Jeff N Holly would know for sure, they used to come here some times. too bad they are not here to help........Andy


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## sandchip (Oct 1, 2015)

If NCH's example is authentic, I'd say yours is as well.  The center ray at the top is slightly lower than the adjacent rays on both examples.  The ray at left of center has a small triangular protrusion on both examples.  I know it's hard to authenticate from pictures, but with what we've had presented so far, it looks good to me.


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## saratogadriver (Oct 2, 2015)

andy volkerts said:
			
		

> This is why I don't collect historic flasks,  There are too many fakes and repros out there, BUT this looks good to me, especially if there is firebrick in the glass!! Jeff N Holly would know for sure, they used to come here some times. too bad they are not here to help........Andy



 An excellent suggestion.   Jeff Noordsy is very knowledgeable in this stuff.   They have a website.  http://www.jeffnholantiquebottles.com/ I'd give them an email.    He's great.   Used to be on here a lot but has moved on to other places.   Jim G


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 3, 2015)

Like I said, the repro's are good.There is a chance that they fooled so many experts over the years that they were all real to begin with but that would mean they're  a real common bottle though. [8D]


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## MuddyMO (Oct 4, 2015)

cowseatmaize said:
			
		

> Like I said, the repro's are good.There is a chance that they fooled so many experts over the years that they were all real to begin with but that would mean they're  a real common bottle though. [8D]


 Technically, many bottles that we treasure as "rare" or "scarce" were made by the tons, it's just a matter of finding or recovering them. Seen it many times with insulators. I've been collecting historical flasks for a bit over a year now, and currently have well over 100 different ones. Demonstrating that I am no expert, but informed and always learning, reading, comparing, and studying. It seemed to me that the GVIII-2 instilled some doubt in its authenticity (to me initially, to you, to a few!), however, if you have other examples in hand (shear tops, Keene examples from the time period, pontils, examples with wear), a systematic method can be used to deduce what is real. In that excessively long and seemingly aggressive post, I hope that I laid out some information and details that are on the real GVIII-2 flask. It seems apparent that the repro GVIII-2's are exactly that: reproductions. A collector of bottles and historical flasks in my area looked at the GVIII-2 in hand this weekend, and agreed it is real. Then the question of "whatcha want for it" came around. Oops. Not a bottle I'd ever pay a fortune for, but nice to have for the moment.


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## RICKJJ59W (Oct 12, 2015)

If you see pieces of firebrick then maybe its real. For some reason the neck looks wrong. I will ask a few people on my FB page see what they say. I hope it is real .


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## MuddyMO (Nov 1, 2015)

RICKJJ59W said:
			
		

> If you see pieces of firebrick then maybe its real. For some reason the neck looks wrong. I will ask a few people on my FB page see what they say. I hope it is real .



Thanks for the effort!  Was following up to see if anyone hadhad input?

I recently turned down a very high offer for the GVIII-8, from another flask collector. Probably would've taken it, if I had a cash register for a mind.


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## MuddyMO (Nov 2, 2015)

Sorry, GVIII-2


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## Bass Assassin (Nov 4, 2015)

More pictures in natural light would help. I'm not getting into your business or being bossy but if you spent as much time posting pictures of the flask in question as you have describing it I think you would have the answers you are looking for. Please don't get your feelings hurt from what I'm saying. I once called a DJ on the radio and told him " less talk more music." He told me of a very warm place I could go to visit.


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## nhpharm (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm really glad to hear that this one turned out to be legit!  A great addition to the collection for sure.  It is hard to tell from photos on the better reproductions so handling them in person is definitely the way to go.


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## MuddyMO (Dec 3, 2015)

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> More pictures in natural light would help. I'm not getting into your business or being bossy but if you spent as much time posting pictures of the flask in question as you have describing it I think you would have the answers you are looking for.



I think you may have missed the point.I posted to the 'New to the Collection' category a GVIII-2 Keene flask found at an antique store. I've already deduced it is real, and posted it as my find. Some speculated that the flask was a reproduction. This is fine, this is how we all learn, and personally, I learned a lot more than I cared to. All that time I spent describing it, was a key in order to ensure features found on a real GVIII-2 flask, through contrasting with a reproduction.


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## RICKJJ59W (Dec 3, 2015)

Even if it is real it still looks like a  real repro to me


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## MuddyMO (Dec 4, 2015)

RICKJJ59W said:
			
		

> Even if it is real it still looks like a Â real repro to meÂ



You keep saying this. It just feels you're trying to discredit this example, or do you have a personal vendetta upon the GVIII-2? 

This flask has been in the hands of many collectors since it was acquired, and not one suspicion it was a reproduction. Turned down two offers for it now. I've spent well over 6hrs studying and contrasting repros from the real flask, to help people understand how to determine the real deal, posted to this thread.

So, could you please elaborate on your position on this? Thank you.


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## RIBottleguy (Dec 5, 2015)

I'm definitely with Rick here.  Even though we aren't flask experts, this one screams repro to me.  Then again, you only posted two pictures with no close-ups of details, which doesn't help.  If you had some good shots of the base, lip, and other details, then it would be a whole lot easier to tell if it was real or not.


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## 2find4me (Dec 5, 2015)

After you said there was firebrick in the glass, I think that confirmed your bottle was real, as most reproducers I would think wouldn't go to that extreme to make a fake. The top resembles repros I have seen so that's the main reason I questioned the flask at first.


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## Robby Raccoon (Dec 5, 2015)

Did anyone ever think of going back to the shop, asking to contact the booth owner, and ask about where he/she got it?


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## andy volkerts (Dec 6, 2015)

andy volkerts said:
			
		

> This is why I don't collect historic flasks,  There are too many fakes and repros out there, BUT this looks good to me, especially if there is firebrick in the glass!! Jeff N Holly would know for sure, they used to come here some times. too bad they are not here to help........Andy


Well That's two of us that have remarked about the unlikely idea of reproducers putting firebrick into their glass, looks real to me too......Andy


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## andy volkerts (Dec 6, 2015)

2find4me said:
			
		

> After you said there was firebrick in the glass, I think that confirmed your bottle was real, as most reproducers I would think wouldn't go to that extreme to make a fake. The top resembles repros I have seen so that's the main reason I questioned the flask at first.


2nd firebrick post


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## MuddyMO (Dec 6, 2015)

Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> Did anyone ever think of going back to the shop, asking to contact the booth owner, and ask about where he/she got it?



I find that there are times to do this, and times not to. It most likely was originally bought via an auction parcel, so it's provenance was probably lost, and pricing and description suggests they had no idea what it was anyways. To bring up this bottle to the seller, may cause hard feelings, and make me appear to be a &quot;butt&quot; to all there who has an opportunity to make a huge profit. All feathers ruffled to find that the bottle was something their aunt had it on a windowsill, or it was the junkiest bottle in a box of Dad's rootbeer and coke bottles from the 70's. If it was an insulator, you bet I would ask!


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## andy volkerts (Dec 6, 2015)

The booth owner probably couldn't tell you much anyway, that flask has changed hands a bunch of times since it was made, any provenance is long gone, if there was any in the first place!!  I do not think there is much doubt left as to if it is real or not, the mouths of these flasks were made differently from glassblower to glassblower and even to the different glasshouses which made them originally. You got lucky and found a good one, I would let it sit on my shelf or in my window, put it up for sale, etc etc and not worry about it..........Andy


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