# Old Smile soda bottle



## NYlakebottles (Sep 13, 2021)

Hoping someone can help with the age of this bottle. Everything I read about Smile soda bottles suggests 1920 Era, however given what appears to be a non-machine construction I'm thinking pre 1915. I believe it to have an applied finish.  Got lots of bubbles, uneven bottom thickness, very heavy, I don't think it's machine made.  Opinions/insight?


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## bottle-bud (Sep 13, 2021)

I have the same bottle as you do. Nice version of the Smile soda bottle.
I believe the bottle to be machine made. This bottle was patented in 1922, by Claude Johnstone. 
Claude was the chemist for the Orange Smile Company, that was based out of St. Louis, Mo.


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 13, 2021)

The dead giveaway that it's machine made is the fact that the seam goes all the way to the lip.  An applied top bottle will never have a seam to the top of the lip.  Typically these "deco" bottles with elaborate designs date from the 1920s or 30s.  They continue to show up here and there for several decades afterwards but are almost never seen from before the 1910s, although some fairly elaborate molds were occasionally used in the late 19th century.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 13, 2021)

This seam on the lip is on machine made bottles.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## hemihampton (Sep 13, 2021)

Coca Cola probably should get credit for starting the out of the Ordinary Bottle shapes with it's Hobbleskirt in 1915. Before that most if not all Soda Bottles had that plain Straight Side look to them. LEON.


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 13, 2021)

hemihampton said:


> Coca Cola probably should get credit for starting the out of the Ordinary Bottle shapes with it's Hobbleskirt in 1915. Before that most if not all Soda Bottles had that plain Straight Side look to them. LEON.


Yes I believe they were the first to make soda bottles in really unusual shapes.  If anyone else was doing it earlier I'm not aware of it.  There were some designs before that which were more creative than others, but the ones I know of were all just different textures on bottles of the same general shape.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 14, 2021)

Close but not exactly. Puritan botting works Hoboken N.J.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## shotdwn (Sep 14, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Close but not exactly. Puritan botting works Hoboken N.J.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


Robby, when was your Puritan bottle made? I don’t see any dates mentioned to back your statement.


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## shotdwn (Sep 14, 2021)

Unless you are meaning it just missed being older then the Coke bottle.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 14, 2021)

shotdwn said:


> Unless you are meaning it just missed being older then the Coke bottle.


Not sure of the date on the puritan. Looks 1920's?  Just similar that's all. They do look good together. I posted this bottle before. Though I cannot find it now. I find 2 different puritans, 1950's ones. This is the other earlier one and the only one I ever found. Vitale & Montello. Prop. embossed on the heel.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## shotdwn (Sep 14, 2021)

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. My apologies on the first statement I made. I miss understood what you were saying. The Puritan is a neat bottle and does look good next to the Coke.


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## J.R. Collector (Sep 14, 2021)

The neat thing about hobble skirt coca cola is that smashed in a 100 pieces, you can still tell it was a coca cola by just 1 shard. Great advisement.


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## NYlakebottles (Sep 16, 2021)

bottle-bud said:


> I have the same bottle as you do. Nice version of the Smile soda bottle.
> I believe the bottle to be machine made. This bottle was patented in 1922, by Claude Johnstone.
> Claude was the chemist for the Orange Smile Company, that was based out of St. Louis, Mo.
> 
> View attachment 229701


Thank you. Must be simplest patent ever, just one paragraph 

I am new to this hobby, here's why I thought it was not machine made.

No suction scars or ejection marks on base.  Very thick overall with very uneven base.  Plenty of air seeds. And there are separate seems for finish and body, note how the vertical seems don't connect?  Looks like a 4 piece mold or an applied crown top, applied crown tops exist but are rare according to sha.org.  what do you think?


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## NYlakebottles (Sep 16, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> The dead giveaway that it's machine made is the fact that the seam goes all the way to the lip.  An applied top bottle will never have a seam to the top of the lip.  Typically these "deco" bottles with elaborate designs date from the 1920s or 30s.  They continue to show up here and there for several decades afterwards but are almost never seen from before the 1910s, although some fairly elaborate molds were occasionally used in the late 19th century.


Thank you, but seams don't go straight through to lip, see additional pics and addendum post.


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 17, 2021)

NYlakebottles said:


> Thank you, but seams don't go straight through to lip, see additional pics and addendum post.


Yes, the seam does go to the top of the lip.  That line up the side of the lip is a seam, and it goes to the top.  The seam does not have to be continuously aligned up the side of the bottle in order to be a dead giveaway that it's an ABM bottle.  If ANY seam goes to the top of the lip, it's an ABM bottle (unless it's a burst-top bottle or something like that, which yours clearly isn't).  An applied top will never have a seam going through it because that's not how they were made.  Applied crown tops aren't really rare because a lot were made in the UK, but they look nothing like yours.  They look like this:



Note the globby, uneven glass at the base of the crown.  That's the sign that it was applied, not a smooth seam.  A four-piece mold is something entirely unrelated but again will never have a seam through the lip because that's not how the lips were made.  The fourth piece isn't the lip.  An uneven base and bubbles in the glass don't mean anything in regards to whether or not it's ABM, the base was often uneven in that era and I've seen ABM bottles with a hundred times more bubbles than yours has.
And it does have a suction scar on the base.  That's that circular seam-like line that runs around the outside of the embossing.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 17, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> Yes, the seam does go to the top of the lip.  That line up the side of the lip is a seam, and it goes to the top.  The seam does not have to be continuously aligned up the side of the bottle in order to be a dead giveaway that it's an ABM bottle.  If ANY seam goes to the top of the lip, it's an ABM bottle (unless it's a burst-top bottle or something like that, which yours clearly isn't).  An applied top will never have a seam going through it because that's not how they were made.  Applied crown tops aren't really rare because a lot were made in the UK, but they look nothing like yours.  They look like this:
> 
> Note the globby, uneven glass at the base of the crown.  That's the sign that it was applied, not a smooth seam.  A four-piece mold is something entirely unrelated but again will never have a seam through the lip because that's not how the lips were made.  The fourth piece isn't the lip.  An uneven base and bubbles in the glass don't mean anything in regards to whether or not it's ABM, the base was often uneven in that era and I've seen ABM bottles with a hundred times more bubbles than yours has.
> And it does have a suction scar on the base.  That's that circular seam-like line that runs around the outside of the embossing.


While I agree that this was made using machines.  I believe in the earliest days of machining there was still HANDWORK being done, which accounts for the seams in the body and the seams in lip not aligning.  The body was made in one machine first and then transferred to a second machine to manufacture the lip.  This is just my theory.  I have examples like the one shown in your post and others where the seams do not align in the body of the bottle.  Very odd.  I have never been able to verify what causes the seams to be out of alignment.  These type of MACHINED bottles still retain some indication that they were HANDLED to complete them and I believe this misalignment of the seams is the indication of this.  I created a term that I use to identify this type of manufacturing, which is MOLDED CROWN in lieu of a MACHINE CROWN.  It's just a term I made to help me identify these anomalies.  If I were to describe this lip I would use my terminology to describe it as a Molded Crown.  It is all very curious and I have seen no records to tell us about the earliest days of the Machine Made manufacturing process and techniques.


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 17, 2021)

UncleBruce said:


> While I agree that this was made using machines.  I believe in the earliest days of machining there was still HANDWORK being done, which accounts for the seams in the body and the seams in lip not aligning.  The body was made in one machine first and then transferred to a second machine to manufacture the lip.  This is just my theory.  I have examples like the one shown in your post and others where the seams do not align in the body of the bottle.  Very odd.  I have never been able to verify what causes the seams to be out of alignment.  These type of MACHINED bottles still retain some indication that they were HANDLED to complete them and I believe this misalignment of the seams is the indication of this.  I created a term that I use to identify this type of manufacturing, which is MOLDED CROWN in lieu of a MACHINE CROWN.  It's just a term I made to help me identify these anomalies.  If I were to describe this lip I would use my terminology to describe it as a Molded Crown.  It is all very curious and I have seen no records to tell us about the earliest days of the Machine Made manufacturing process and techniques.


This got me looking into the ways that bottles are made in an Owens machine, and it looks like the formation of the lip and the formation of the body of the bottle are two different processes in the same machine, or at least were in the early days.  From here: https://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/OIExhibit/5612.pdf
"_The biggest challenge of all—a fully automated machine. The greatest obstacle was finding a way to gather the glass in the proper quantities. His ingenious solution, christened the “bicycle pump” because that is what it resembled both in form and function, gathered the glass by suction. Withdrawing the piston rod on the crude hand pump created a vacuum that sucked up a charge of glass into a mold which formed the neck of the bottle. Suspended by the neck, the gather was then placed in a body mold, where the return stroke of the plunger blew the glass into the proper shape._"
What isn't totally clear to me is how much this process changed between the prototypes and the production machines.  It's interesting that the glass is referred to as being sucked into a neck mold, since necks are typically not separate pieces on ABM bottles like lips are.  What's also unclear to me is that if this is roughly the same process that was used on most Owens machines then it would explain why the lip seams are sometimes out of alignment, but wouldn't explain why they're typically in alignment in the first place - although that could simply be explained by it being the simplest way to open both the lip and body mold at the same time.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 17, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> This got me looking into the ways that bottles are made in an Owens machine, and it looks like the formation of the lip and the formation of the body of the bottle are two different processes in the same machine, or at least were in the early days.  From here: https://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/OIExhibit/5612.pdf
> "_The biggest challenge of all—a fully automated machine. The greatest obstacle was finding a way to gather the glass in the proper quantities. His ingenious solution, christened the “bicycle pump” because that is what it resembled both in form and function, gathered the glass by suction. Withdrawing the piston rod on the crude hand pump created a vacuum that sucked up a charge of glass into a mold which formed the neck of the bottle. Suspended by the neck, the gather was then placed in a body mold, where the return stroke of the plunger blew the glass into the proper shape._"
> What isn't totally clear to me is how much this process changed between the prototypes and the production machines.  It's interesting that the glass is referred to as being sucked into a neck mold, since necks are typically not separate pieces on ABM bottles like lips are.  What's also unclear to me is that if this is roughly the same process that was used on most Owens machines then it would explain why the lip seams are sometimes out of alignment, but wouldn't explain why they're typically in alignment in the first place - although that could simply be explained by it being the simplest way to open both the lip and body mold at the same time.


If we look at modern machine made bottles the seam is perfect top to bottom so there had to be some kind of HANDLING in the earliest days of the invention.  Interesting.


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## hemihampton (Sep 17, 2021)

BUT, With this Bottle being made in 1922 or after it would not be in the Earliest Days of the Invention Since Owens Started Using the ABM Bottle in 1903 if I remember right. LEON.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 17, 2021)

hemihampton said:


> BUT, With this Bottle being made in 1922 or after it would not be in the Earliest Days of the Invention Since Owens Started Using the ABM Bottle in 1903 if I remember right. LEON.


I was discussing the bottle lip posted by CanadianBottles not NYlakebottles.  Different bottle.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 18, 2021)

J.R. Collector said:


> The neat thing about hobble skirt coca cola is that smashed in a 100 pieces, you can still tell it was a coca cola by just 1 shard. Great advisement.


That was one of the stipulations of the contest to see who could come up with the best coke bottle. The rules stated that the bottle must be recognizable in absolute darkness and smashed on the ground. Odd right? Root Glass Company won.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Sep 18, 2021)

UncleBruce said:


> If we look at modern machine made bottles the seam is perfect top to bottom so there had to be some kind of HANDLING in the earliest days of the invention.  Interesting.


Had to be. Always problems with the first anything, til they get the bugs out. Proper training on said equipment is another factor.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## NYlakebottles (Sep 18, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> Yes, the seam does go to the top of the lip.  That line up the side of the lip is a seam, and it goes to the top.  The seam does not have to be continuously aligned up the side of the bottle in order to be a dead giveaway that it's an ABM bottle.  If ANY seam goes to the top of the lip, it's an ABM bottle (unless it's a burst-top bottle or something like that, which yours clearly isn't).  An applied top will never have a seam going through it because that's not how they were made.  Applied crown tops aren't really rare because a lot were made in the UK, but they look nothing like yours.  They look like this:
> View attachment 229831
> Note the globby, uneven glass at the base of the crown.  That's the sign that it was applied, not a smooth seam.  A four-piece mold is something entirely unrelated but again will never have a seam through the lip because that's not how the lips were made.  The fourth piece isn't the lip.  An uneven base and bubbles in the glass don't mean anything in regards to whether or not it's ABM, the base was often uneven in that era and I've seen ABM bottles with a hundred times more bubbles than yours has.
> And it does have a suction scar on the base.  That's that circular seam-like line that runs around the outside of the embossing.


Thanks, so much to learn, rely heavily on sha.org but soooo many pages and they did state "1900s into the 1920s) and occasional later (1930s and later) machine-made bottles the vertical body/neck and finish mold seams are discontinuous and offset from each other; click offset seams for a picture of this attribute"


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 18, 2021)

NYlakebottles said:


> Thanks, so much to learn, rely heavily on sha.org but soooo many pages and they did state "1900s into the 1920s) and occasional later (1930s and later) machine-made bottles the vertical body/neck and finish mold seams are discontinuous and offset from each other; click offset seams for a picture of this attribute"


Do they list any explanation for why the seams are offset?  The one in that linked picture is interesting, looks like it aligns more closely with the prototype Owens machine in the description I found.  Maybe from a very early Owens machine or from one of his competitors.


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## kolawars (Sep 22, 2021)

The earliest deco soda bottle design that I'm aware of is the 1908 Bludwine "hobbleskirt" which was later patented. The Gay-Ola "four ring" design was patented in 1914 in response to a lawsuit by Coca-Cola. Coke lost that lawsuit and developed their own patented bottle a year later for their own product protection.


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 25, 2021)

kolawars said:


> The earliest deco soda bottle design that I'm aware of is the 1908 Bludwine "hobbleskirt" which was later patented. The Gay-Ola "four ring" design was patented in 1914 in response to a lawsuit by Coca-Cola. Coke lost that lawsuit and developed their own patented bottle a year later for their own product protection.


Interesting, I stand corrected on that one then.  I think I may have found an earlier example of a deco bottle though; this David Middleman hutch from Philly:



It's weird to think of a hutch as a deco bottle but I'd unambiguously consider it a deco if it was an ABM crown top, so I think it should qualify.


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## hemihampton (Sep 26, 2021)

Kinda reminds me of my Mt. 

Clemens Hutch? LEON.


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## NYlakebottles (Sep 27, 2021)

CanadianBottles said:


> Do they list any explanation for why the seams are offset?  The one in that linked picture is interesting, looks like it aligns more closely with the prototype Owens machine in the description I found.  Maybe from a very early Owens machine or from one of his competitors.


There wasn't an explanation but I saw a sketch (that I haven't been able to find again) that showed a five piece mold.  Since it has a very smooth transition I do agree it's machine made, perhaps as one suggested a secondary process or a more complex 5 piece mold was used.  I like the odd stuff!


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 27, 2021)

hemihampton said:


> Kinda reminds me of my Mt. View attachment 230083Clemens Hutch? LEON.


Yeah there were a number of those multi-sided or ribbed hutch bottles.  To avoid ambiguity I was initially excluding them from what could be considered a deco bottle and focusing only on the ones where the shape of the bottle itself was significantly altered in a unique way, rather than simply putting a texture on the sides, but I'd consider a bottle like yours to be a deco if it was an ABM crown, so really it probably should qualify.  And at that point we can go even further back, like this Geo. Eagle pontilled blob top:


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