# Old bottles of rum 1789



## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

Hello everybody,

Do you have any information about these rum bottles? Do you think you the dates on the label are right?

I'm not specialist of antique bottles and it's the first time i saw these kind of bottles. They look amazing to me.


Thank you in advance to all

Regards

David


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## nhpharm (Jun 20, 2019)

The bottles are 1840's-1860's era...maybe slightly earlier but definitely not 1789 era.  However, the rum could be that old and just rebottled.


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## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

Thanks for your answer. Are you sure? Because the harewood rum from 1780 are the same form of bottle and the harewoodare well of 1780.


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## sandchip (Jun 20, 2019)

They look late 1700s to very early 1800s to me as narrow as those collars are.  Dip molds had pretty much given way to 3-molds by 1840.  Just my opinion.  Great looking bottles.


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## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

So, it is possible that it is bottles before 1800 or not? The neck of the bottles is not the same on the 3, according to you, which one is the oldest?


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## nhpharm (Jun 20, 2019)

I've dug these dip mold bottles in the style of the middle bottle in Galveston, Texas in late 1840's privies.  The other two lips look like they could possibly be a bit earlier, but I would be surprised if they date to 1789.


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 20, 2019)

*
The bottle construction is reasonable for the 1789 date.  The three I've illustrated below are squat cylinders, but tall cylinders (such as the bottles in question) were contemporary.  The important feature here is the lip finish.*


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## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

Thanks Harry, so Harry for you it's possible that the 3 bottles are from 1789? Apparently they were found in an old English house. I do not master the finish of the lips of the old bottles is why I ask your opinion  I try to analyze the lips of the 3 bottles with your drawings but it is not easy. According to you, it is rather 1740-1800 than 1800-1820? 

Many thanks


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 20, 2019)

david1977 said:


> Thanks Harry, so Harry for you it's possible that the 3 bottles are from 1789? Apparently they were found in an old English house. I do not master the finish of the lips of the old bottles is why I ask your opinion  I try to analyze the lips of the 3 bottles with your drawings but it is not easy. According to you, it is rather 1740-1800 than 1800-1820?






> The bottle construction is reasonable for the 1789 date.  The three I've illustrated below are squat cylinders, but tall cylinders (such as the bottles in question) were contemporary.  The important feature here is the lip finish.​



*Bottles of the late 1700s are finished by applying to the neck a separate string of glass, flat with bottom edge more prominent (commonly, but not exclusively).  The bottle is then sheared from the blowpipe, and the top of the new bottle is mushroomed down to the applied string. 

The 3-piece mold machine was patented in 1811, and widely adopted by the 1820s.  Here's what an 1820s bottle looks like:


*


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## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

Many thanks Harry. Everything you write is interesting. So Harry your conclusion is that the 3 bottles are probably from 1789? Sorry if I make you repeat but I'm Belgian and I can not speak English 

Best regards Harry


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 20, 2019)

Ma conclusion est que la construction de la bouteille est raisonnable pour la date de 1789.​


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## david1977 (Jun 20, 2019)

Harry Pristis said:


> Ma conclusion est que la construction de la bouteille est raisonnable pour la date de 1789.​



Many thanks Harry, i really appreciate it.


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## saratogadriver (Jun 21, 2019)

Harry Pristis said:


> View attachment 189105View attachment 189106View attachment 189107
> *
> The bottle construction is reasonable for the 1789 date.  The three I've illustrated below are squat cylinders, but tall cylinders (such as the bottles in question) were contemporary.  The important feature here is the lip finish.*View attachment 189103 View attachment 189104





The three bottle's lip finish most closely matches the one for 1790-1800.   The question is how much room for error is there in that chart?   Was that lip made beyond 1800?  Older Bottle making techniques often continued long after technology changed.

The bottle itself isn't 1787, the RUM would have been distilled in 1789, probably keg aged, then bottled.   But the bottle could most certainly be 1800 or earlier.

pretty cool stuff for us US folk who so rarely see anything that early.

Jim G


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 21, 2019)

saratogadriver said:


> The three bottle's lip finish most closely matches the one for 1790-1800.   The question is how much room for error is there in that chart?   Was that lip made beyond 1800?  Older Bottle making techniques often continued long after technology changed.
> 
> The bottle itself isn't 1787, the RUM would have been distilled in 1789, probably keg aged, then bottled.   But the bottle could most certainly be 1800 or earlier.
> 
> ...



*One reason that hand-finished bottle are preferred by collectors is that every bottle is different, even bottles produced on the same day by the same gaffer.  The line-drawings are a generalized guide to form by date.

The bottles I've illustrated are far more likely to have contained WINE rather than rum.  Note that the line-drawings are taken from a book about wine bottles.  But, no doubt a few of these bottles were recycled to contain rum for local use.  Caribbean rum was exported in casks.  Most rums continue today to be bottled directly from the still rather than be aged in barrels.  The vast number of such bottles found in former Caribbean colonies is a reflection of the of the scarcity of potable water, I suspect.  Wine was safe to drink. 

I can't agree with your assessment of the later date of the three bottles in question.  In fact, the bottles look to me to be earlier than the 1789 date.  The lips of these bottles went from being FLARED to being mushroomed into a BROAD COLLAR over a 50-year period to about 1800.  You can see that progression in the image below.  The lips on the three bottles of rum look to me like they fit somewhere in the middle of that period.
*

​

​



​


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## david1977 (Jun 21, 2019)

Many thanks guys, if it can help, i can do some more detail photos from the 3 bottles, but the majority seems to be good from 1789


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## saratogadriver (Jun 24, 2019)

I bow to your extensive knowledge of bottles of that age Harry.    Sure isn't my area of knowledge, not much out there for inks that old.   I was just saying that the bottle, if new at the time of use, would be newer than 1789.   I didn't know that most rum doesn't get a barrel finish.   I'm more of a scotch guy myself.   

Awesome bottles and awesome age no matter what.

Jim G


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 24, 2019)

saratogadriver said:


> I bow to your extensive knowledge of bottles of that age Harry.    Sure isn't my area of knowledge, not much out there for inks that old.   I was just saying that the bottle, if new at the time of use, would be newer than 1789.   I didn't know that most rum doesn't get a barrel finish.   I'm more of a scotch guy myself.
> 
> Awesome bottles and awesome age no matter what.
> 
> Jim G



*
I do understand your argument, Jim.  You are making two assumptions:

1) The labels "1789" are original, applied in 1789 or thereabouts.
2) The contents were decanted (from a cask) into brand-new bottles months or even years after the putative 1789 date.

I, on the other hand, am looking at the construction of the bottle lip finish to conclude that the bottles appear "reasonable" for a 1789 date.  

1) I do not rely on paper labels which could have been attached much later, after the distill date was lost.  
2) I do not rely on the paper label to say anything about when the bottles were blown.  As I suggested, the lip finishes could be a few years earlier than the 1789 date. Re-filling these bottles is not uncommon.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to sort this out in my thinking.
*


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## saratogadriver (Jun 25, 2019)

Great bottles no matter exactly when they were made.


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## coreya (Jun 25, 2019)

I wonder how the rum is????


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## saratogadriver (Jun 26, 2019)

coreya said:


> i wonder how the rum is????




aged


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