# Oddity "AM. TEL & TEL CO." insulator?



## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

"AM. TEL & TEL CO." is normal, but what is that on the dome? An 8 with a swirl slashing through it possibly, then two little loops making an x in it? Then two different-sized 1's? I read the insulators were from the 1890s throguh the 1920s and this Toll-style is usually common. I have seen very few domes of these, as Google doesn't care to show e those, but I don't think this is as common? I read that Brookfield sometimes marked the insulators with the three-man crew's number for pay. Is this the case? Can someone help me understand this? I got it for 2 dollars. Any room for profit if I ever decide to sell? (Being that it's the first A.T.&T. Co. insulator I have, that's not likely.) I know they tend to be common.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

It's a nice aqua blue, smooth-base, and has some swirls on it-- and some great bubbles (I love bubbles) are in it. But, no other colors-- it appears to be permanently stained around the base-- and it has some noticeable cracks on the inside as well as splits on the thread-lines of the inside. The base is smooth and unembossed. The back is also unembossed. 
Nonetheless, it's totally intact, has no chips (save for a light one on the back heel-base,)  and is one of my lighter-colored insulators. Further, I learned a lot from researching it. Any idea what decade it was created? What CD-number is it? What's on the dome... Rather, what is the meaning of the embossing on the dome?


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## botlguy (Jan 26, 2015)

Hey Bear Robert. What you have is a CD 121 "Toll" that is common except for the very unusual dome embossing. Several companies made these for American Telephone and Telegraph Company in late 1800s to early (1st quarter) 20th century. The dome embossing is generally "Shop" or mold numbers / letters as a quality control aide. I am unfamiliar with this particular set, hopefully another more astute member can enlighten us.     Jim


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks, Jim, for proving it is unusual. I was assuming it had to do with the Shop-- I had forgotten the word, but it's the team of about three working to put-out as many insulators as possible. According to the reading, they were paid by the insulator. I read of a few with embossed domes, but not like this.


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## BellwoodBoys (Jan 26, 2015)

I've got one of those. Was found in the Shrewsbury river.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

Does the dome say "8 11"?


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

It appears to have something on top, but unless that's damage, I see a period after the second "TEL"-- it's a different variation. Nice glow you got it to have, though-- and a fun find.By Hemingray: CD 121Mine is none of their variations, thus leading me to believe it is Brookfield or another. Toll-style examples: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




CORRECTION: Mine is a ROUND-base, not smooth-base.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

I think... 
We'll go with, It has no drip points or base embossing.


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## BellwoodBoys (Jan 26, 2015)

Mine just has a 6 on the top.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

Interesting.


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## MuddyMO (Jan 26, 2015)

Spirit,
Yours has a shop number or mold number on dome. There are many x's and number configurations. XO is common to see on these. Yours is referred to as smooth base. Never seen the breakdown you posted before.

Undoubtedly a Brookfield product. Like you found, many 121 types. Duquesne have 4 ribs on the lower wire groove. Pleated skirts are found here in Missouri to Kansas. There are so many AM. TEL. & TEL. variations. AT&T is the shortened version.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

Thanks.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 26, 2015)

Base:


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## iggyworf (Jan 27, 2015)

Bear have you ever checked out this site? Lots of cool info on insulators. http://glassian.org/index.html


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm not seeing how it pertains to me.... sorry..


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## iggyworf (Jan 27, 2015)

Just cool stuff on insulators.


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## BillinMo (Jan 28, 2015)

Yep, agree with the others that this is a Brookfield product.  They produced these tolls for AT&T by the zillions.  There's no way to be 100% sure, but I'd guess that at some point the mold was being used by one shop, say 11, then later shop 8 re-used the mold.  Of course, it could be 8 had it first, then 11.  Superimposed shop numbers aren't unusual in older Brookfields.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 28, 2015)

".... Brookfield sometimes marked the insulators...." and "....thus leading me to believe it is Brookfield or another." 
I was the first to suggest it is Brookfield. 

I'm not trying to be rude, but it is lately becoming more and more probable that people avoid reading Everything. This leads the original writer to think about that.... I can give plenty of examples. Basically, it's retelling information as if the one who originally told it hadn't known. I'm not sure how that comes off to you all... but it's an observation that leads me to believe people skim-- or skip-- before doing research on their own/responding. I am assuming everyone looked at that I gave Hemingray sources, but Brookfield I stated a few times. Just a thought. My issue is that I can't not analyze items and people.  You're saying the shop wouldn't try and work-out the old shop's number?Why is there a pair of loops in the 8 forming almost an X?  Thanks for the responses, all.  As of late, that's only happening on half my threads that I don't _ask_ for responses directly.


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## BillinMo (Jan 29, 2015)

Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> ".... Brookfield sometimes marked the insulators...." and "....thus leading me to believe it is Brookfield or another."
> I was the first to suggest it is Brookfield.


Yes, you were.  You received several confirmations of that suggestion.  Is that a problem?



			
				Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> You're saying the shop wouldn't try and work-out the old shop's number?Why is there a pair of loops in the 8 forming almost an X?



Good question.  The only way to really know for certain is to ask the guy who marked the mold… and I’m sure he’s passed on a long time ago.  My guess:  I’m sure the goal was to get the mold ready for production as quickly as possible, so precise, tidy shop numbers probably weren’t given a lot of time or priority.  For blot-outs on insulators, we have lots of examples where you can look at two insulators from the same mold:  on one, a blot-out is just about complete and you’d have to look closely to even detect it.  On the other, the blotted embossing is clearly visible.  Some people believe the material used to fill in the old numbers or letters worked its way out over time as they used the mold again and again. Another possibility - we know that most of Brookfield’s later products don’t have shop numbers, so from that we assume they stopped using them.  But it’s entirely possible they just kept using the older molds and because the shop numbers weren’t of any consequence, they didn’t worry about how clear they were or how strange they may look. It's really tough for us today to look at an insulator and figure out what was an intentional marking and what was a stray tool mark that resulted in something that looks like embossing.  We also often see "ghost" embossing, where molten glass squirmed around in the mold and picked up letter impressions that ended up elsewhere on the insulator.  Combine those three possibilities, and you can end up with some pretty strange markings.


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## BillinMo (Jan 29, 2015)

Regarding your other paragraph, I was hesitant to really say something, but I'll just offer this.  I hope you understand what I mean.  Internet group discussion means conversations are open to everyone.  Chances are probably far greater than 50% that any given thread will drift a ways from the original post or topic.  I’ve never been part of a forum or discussion group that didn’t engage in that.  People like to post all sorts of random stuff, questions about sideline issues, who knows what.  It can be frustrating, but attempting to control it will be an exercise in futility.  It’ll be less painful to beat your forehead against the pavement. Please don’t take every response personally, even if you started a thread.  Many times I’ve posted very elementary information not because the original poster asked for it, but because I feel this forum is about sharing and education.  Anything posted here is open for everyone to read, and many (most?) of those readers may not know that basic background information.   I’m sorry if that bothers you, or perhaps might come across as talking past you and not with you.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 29, 2015)

I'm high-stress and not adequately socialized. This place is a learning-experience in multiple subjects for me. I'm not like other people, and it's hard to put myself in their frame of mind and such.
I'm sorry if I seem like a jerk.  So the double-printing of embossing on many bottle-bases comes from moving glass?  I cause threads to drift. That I'm used to seeing-- I expect it. This has drifted, but the information I was looking for has mostly been gathered, so most any other use for this thread will suffice.  On the insulator: Can we narrow-down an age more?


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## 2find4me (Jan 29, 2015)

I've got the same one, with 17 on the top. (The 7 is backwards)


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 29, 2015)

I love it when they do things backwards.


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## BillinMo (Jan 29, 2015)

No worries, Robert []... and no, you don't seem like a jerk.   In my opinion, you sounded a bit frustrated is all.  For your insulator, the strange combination of marks on the dome COULD be the result of ghost embossing OR it might be an attempt to blot out old shop numbers/letters OR it could be some stray tool marks OR any combination of these.  It's really hard to say when I'm looking at a photo.  It's not always possible to tell even after looking at the insulator in person.  Sorry I don't have a definite answer there. For age, it's really hard to tell with any certainty.  Brookfield moved their factory to New Jersey and changed sand source around 1906, and the New Jersey products tend to be darker colors than this.  I'd say your insulator is probably from mid 1890s to 1906 or so.


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## Robby Raccoon (Jan 30, 2015)

Not frustrated.... Other stuff. Thanks for your help-- all of you.


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## RED Matthews (Aug 21, 2015)

Hi again Robert/  Some where I have an insulator that was cast in a mold and was left there to heat up the mold - it had a lot of damage roughness to the glass surface,  RED M.  Some think the glass was just used to heat up the mold for production.  RED M.


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## Robby Raccoon (Aug 21, 2015)

Hola, Red. If ever you find it and have a camera on hand, I'd love to see it.


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