# CHARLES RYAN EMBOSSED SODA



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

HELP!

 I think I have met my match. This one stumps me. I'm usually a pretty good researcher, but cannot find anything specific related to a bottle I aquired today. The dealer I purchased it from even brought it to me, as he was in the neighborhood anyway. But he's stumped too.

 It's a "Charles Ryan" embossed bottle from North Adams, Massachusetts. It is in absolute pristine mint condition, with no case wear whatsoever, and looks brand new. On the neck it reads "Registered," with "8 FL OZ" on the lower shoulder. The name embossment is what I call a slug plate, with "This Bottle To Be Returned When Empty" embossed on the back-side heel.

 I am fairly certain it is non machine made, and has heavy seams and an applied lip. The color is the most beautiful aqua blue you have ever seen. The bottom edge rounds inward, with a concave-like base.

 My initial research produced nothing worth mentioning. Nor is there anything currently on e-bay or elsewhere like it. I strongly suspect it was made pre 1910. And may very well be the oldest crown-top bottle currently in my collection.

 If you recognize this bottle, please let me know anything and everything you know about it. I truly appreciate the help, and will look forward to your replies. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one, but won't be too disappointed if it turns out to be as common as dirt.

 Thanks much,

 SODAPOPBOB

 (One of two photos).


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

Dang!  I forgot to put a check mark in the little box.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

(Two of two photos).


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## cyberdigger (Oct 18, 2010)

Looks to me like a 1920's -30's returnable.. the bottle design and the "8 fl oz" embossing put it there.. 
 ..if you think this is the oldest crown top in your collection, Bob, you got another thing coming, literally.. I still feel bad you never got the Anheuser bottle which vanished into USPS air.. this time I will invest in delivery confirmation.. []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

cyberdigger ~

 That 8 oz embossment got me to wondering about it's age too. But based on everything I know (or don't know) about embossed bottles, it sure looks non-machine / blown in a mold (BIM) to me. I know there are exceptions all the way down the line, but were they honestly still making bottles in the 1920s and 30s with tons of bubbles and heavy-heavy seams on them? Please believe me, I am not trying to turn a pumpkin into a carriage here. It's just that it has all the earmarks of being very early.

 But I will stand corrected if you say so. (Seriously). And to show you I am a good sport, I post the following regarding the 8 oz.

 Thanks,

 SPBOB

_On March 3, 1913, Congress passed H. R. 22526, generally known as the Gould Amendment to the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Although the Pure Food and Drug Act demanded a great deal of labeling information, it did not require the inclusion of volume specification. The Gould Amendment corrected that oversight when it stated that the "quantity of the contents be . . . plainly and conspicuously marked on the outside of the package in terms of weight, measure, or numerical count" but continued to explain that "reasonable variations shall be permitted." Although the law went into effect immediately, it clarified that "no penalty of fine, imprisonment, or confiscation shall be enforced for any violation of its provisions as to domestic products prepared or foreign products imported prior to eighteen months after its passage" (U. S. 1913:732). In other words, the industry actually had a grace period in required compliance until September 3, 1914._


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## cyberdigger (Oct 18, 2010)

Good info.. So Gould amendment puts it at 1914, basically... that is not out of BIM range.. and one thing the bottle has going for it is the rather old looking slug plate.. it could indeed be BIM, but ..in my 'dammed if I'm wrong' opinion.. it is not older than 1913..


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

Okey dokey, then. I will settle for that whether I like it or not. Despite all of my past research regarding early crowns, etc; these embossed bottles without makers marks and dates still haunt me. So let's move on to the brand. What do we know about Charles Ryan?  Personally, I know zilch!

 Thanks again,

 Bob


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## TJSJHART (Oct 18, 2010)

I FOUND THIS ARTICLE WHEN I SEARCHED THE NAME    CHARLE RYAN SODA BOTTLE  http://www.fohbc.com/PDF_Files/CharlesMatzen_BBaab.pdf


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## cyberdigger (Oct 18, 2010)

[8|]  Chas Ryan is not a brand.. he was the proprietor of a bottling works.. the "brand" of contents would have appeared on a paper label..


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## blobbottlebob (Oct 18, 2010)

How about the neck and side of the crown? Do they show any mold seams? I do have a hutch with the volume on it (but I think it is rare - at least from around here). The registered language also _feels_ new to me.??


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

TJSJHART ~

 Thanks. I wish it were a John Ryan bottle. I think a nice one starts at about $250.00 and goes up from there. I did the same thing in my initial search. I think it automatically connected the Charles part of the article title to the name Ryan.

 blobbottlebob ~

 Howdy cuz ... Thanks. There is absolutely no seam on the crown closure. (Applied after moulding). And the side seams are so heavy they stand up and can be felt. But, like cyberdigger said, still a characteristic of BIM bottles as late as 1913+

 SPBOB


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## cyberdigger (Oct 18, 2010)

Those be "tooled" tops, they are.. not applied, but shaped by hand using a tool to mold the lip from the existing molten glass..


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## celerycola (Oct 18, 2010)

*LICENSE GOES TO RYAN
 ------------------------------------
 Commissioners Decision Announced
 and Was as Expected
 ----------------------------​*--------​ Charles Ryan was awarded the last
 remaining bottler's license by the li-
 cense commissioners last evening. This
 is for conducting a bottling business in
 the wooded building on Holden street
 formerly used as a Chinese laundry.
      This completes the list of licenses to
 be granted for the next year, its decision
 having been made only after a hard
 campaign by P. H. Whalen and John
 Purcell, the other two candidates. The
 other bottling license was granted last
 week to T. Mulcare.
      This is the last day of business for
 the saloons and bottling works which
 failed to receive licenses, and Monday
 morning the new firms will begin busi-
 ness.​ 
*THE NORTH ADAMS EVENING TRANSCRIPT
 SATURDAY, APRIL​*29, 1899​


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## celerycola (Oct 18, 2010)

North Adams Transcript 
 September 5, 1925


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 18, 2010)

celery ~

 Thanks. You are my new best friend. At least this establishes a start-up date for Charles Ryan. And with the date being 1899, this suggest the possibility of his first bottles as being "crowns." Now I need to determine how long he remained in business. But with your last post, we know he was still around in 1925. And with this said, I still agree with cyberdigger as to the approximate date of my bottle as being circa 1913. I just went back and did some 101 research on closures, and from Bill Lindsey's website I found the information below. (In addition to a ton of other stuff that still boggles the average mind). And just when I thought I knew everything - I discovered I still have a lot to learn. I am certain now (as cyberdigger pointed out) that my bottle has a tooled finish, and not an applied one. Not that I doubted him for a second, mind you.  Lol  [] 

 SPBOB

 From Bill Lindsey's Historic Bottle Site.

Mouth-blown, true applied crown finish closure soda bottles do exist but are very uncommon and then almost always of foreign (Asian and possibly European) manufacture (empirical observations).  Mouth-blown, tooled crown finish soda bottles date from possibly as early as 1894, but more likely from about 1897 to about 1912-1915, when machine-made manufacture of soda and beer bottles was almost complete, although it appears in Canada that tooled crown sodas continued until the late 1910s (Axelson 2000; Lockhart pers. comm. 2003). Machine-made crown finish bottles all date after 1905 when the first license for soda and beer bottles was issued for the _Owens Automatic Bottle Machine._ Owens machine produced bottles would exhibit suction scars (Miller & McNichol 2002). The semi-automatic machine production of narrow necked bottles was not significant until after about 1910 making machine-made, non-suction scarred crown finish bottles likely to date no earlier than the early 1910s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2010)

This was a fun discussion for me, and want to thank everyone who participated. It's interesting how easily we can turn an old piece of glass into and almost living breathing thing. But I guess you have to be a bottle collector like ourselves to truly appreciate and entertain such a bizarre thought. And to put a face to a town I've never heard of until today, I found this postcard of Main Street in North Adams, Massachusetts, circa 1910. If you look really close, I think that kid about halfway down the street is holding my bottle and taking a sip from it. Those certainly were they days. I wish I could have been there for real.

 SPBOB


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## ncbred (Oct 19, 2010)

Here are a couple of SS Cokes with the OZ embossed on the shoulder which I don't think is common for SS Cokes.  These particular two date around 1906-1910.


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## ncbred (Oct 19, 2010)

Dennis must have developed a soda search engine for his own personal use or something.  Its amazing to me how you can post the most obscure bottle and he has a label or advertisemnt for it.  Its great to have people like him here.


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## celerycola (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm reminded of Archaeology 101 at Cal State. The professor handed out boxes of junk he dug out of his garden and we were to research the artifacts and date the site. One of the items in my group's box was a Max Factor lipstick. I was able to track it down and date it by the logo to a sixteen month time frame in 1940-41 and included a statement from the company historian in the paper I turned in. The professor said no one had ever been so thorough in the years he had assigned that exercise. He signed me up for an independent study on artifacts excavated from a Chinese work camp where I was working with grad students.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 21, 2010)

> ORIGINAL: cyberdigger
> 
> Looks to me like a 1920's -30's returnable.. the bottle design and the "8 fl oz" embossing put it there..
> ..if you think this is the oldest crown top in your collection, Bob, you got another thing coming, literally.. I still feel bad you never got the Anheuser bottle which vanished into USPS air.. this time I will invest in delivery confirmation.. []


 
 cyber ~

                                                            embossed ...  

                                        E. L. Kerns - Trenton, N.J. - Registered

 I received your bottle in the mail today. Man, that was quick! The above was posted on Monday the 18th. I received it today, Thursday the 21st. It arrived undamaged and is in like mint condition. Thank you. I will have to find a way to make it up to you.

 However, I am a little confused, (as usual). I did a little research on it, but have to admit I didn't find much. In fact, I am not even 100% certain whether it's a soda bottle or a beer bottle. But according to the copy/pasted message below that I got from another chat forum, they refer to it as a "soda." But my main confusion is in regards to the date it was made. In your message above you suggested the bottle would pre-date my circa 1913 Charles Ryan bottle, thus being the oldest Crown bottle in my collection. But I am right back to where I was the other day, and seem at a loss as to properly date it. It appears to be a BIM with heavy side seams and a "tooled" lip. But other than that, I'm clueless. So I guess I have failed miserably with regards to the classroom test of dating soda bottles 101. Please come to my rescue again and tell us more about it.

 Thanks again, I love the bottle and will always treasure it. My dad likes it too because he's a former hunter and likes anything with deer or elk on it.

 Bob 

 Here's the forum text I mentioned ...

 Originally Posted by *Hunky* 

 [/align]Anybody know @ histories, web sites, data, etc @ the E L Kerns Beverege (Soda) Company in Trenton, NJ. I think that they had an Elk head as thier logo and horizontally-ridged glass bottles? Any street addresses?
 [/align]
*Reply;*[/align] [/align]The Kerns building was on N. Broad St right next to the Delaware-Raritan canal near Allen St. The entrance for vehicles was off of N. Montgomery St. After the building was closed when the company went out of business, it became the home for the Trenton Police Department K-9 unit for years.
 [/align]

 And the bottle itself. Beneath the head on the shoulder is a ribbon embossment that says "ELK."
 [/align]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 21, 2010)

Hold the phone!  I may not be such a flunky after all. I just discovered the bottle has a small embossment on the heel with ...

                                                            E.H.E. CO

 And found this to go with it ...
 [*]E.H.E.CO ... Edward H. Everett Company (Newark Star Glass Works), Newark, OH (1880-1904). Plant merged in 1904 to become part of the Ohio Bottle Company and in 1905 part of the American Bottle Company. American was purchased by Owens Bottle Company in 1916, and in 1929 this plant became part of the merger that resulted in the formation of Owens-Illinois Glass Company. Also, see "S. K. & CO" and "N next to or within a star" marks.

 So if I understand this correctly, it would date the bottle circa 1904-05, and possibly earlier. Which is fantastic, and truly does make it the earliest Crown-Closure bottle in my collection. Now if I can just confirm if it's a soda or beer bottle, I will be batting 100% ... I say it's a soda!

 Cyber ~

 Whew ... I almost blew it. But you knew the "E.H.E CO" was there all along, didn't ya?  []

 Double Thanks!  Double Thanks!

 Bob


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## cyberdigger (Oct 21, 2010)

I'm extremely pleased that you got it safe and sound.. and this century..!
 []
 Here are the other two from the triad I had of ELK's.. these look slightly older than crowns, don't they? I truly believe the crown I sent you is from the same mold as the tall blob I have here.. the squat might be a little older, not sure.. but I honestly believe I just done sent you an 1890's crowntop.. I just kinda know deep down inside.. oh and the E H E CO thing, it never occurred to me until you brought it up.. but all 3 of the Kearns bottles in this thread are E H E's..


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## cyberdigger (Oct 21, 2010)

..small detail on the tall blob.. probably would not have been reproduced in an different private mold so exactly.. oh and I didn't bother to check the base but it there a 314?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 21, 2010)

cyber ~

 It does have the mark like the closeup you posted, but there is no number on it anywhere that I can see. And I used a magnifying glass. I wondered about that arrow-dot-arrow mark and whether it had any connection to the Owens-Illinois mark  <O>  that came out later?

 I also looked at the lip again, and don't see the swirl tool marks like my Charles Ryan bottle has. So you could very well be right about the 1890s part. If so, then that makes it triple interesting to me. And just for the record, are they soda's or beer's?  And lastly, why did you break up such a beautiful set? I am not only pleased, I'm honored!

 Bob


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## cyberdigger (Oct 22, 2010)

Howdy, Bob!
 I didn't break up a set, I just moved part of it to California. []
 I like blobbies, and I'm running out of shelf space.. the "arrow-dot-arrow" mark is purely decorative, of that I'm sure, sort of like when someone embellishes their signature with a fancy underline.. as far as tooling the top, I like the detail of the neck in that one.. see how it's stretched and twisted? 
 Soda or beer? That's always a good question when the paper label is no longer present.. but you can be sure it was a carbonated beverage..


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## dlouis (May 21, 2015)

*Re:  RE: CHARLES RYAN EMBOSSED SODA*

I just found a chas ryan bottle in the brook behind my house in Williamstown ma.  Its a clear 7 oz. bottle in great shape.  The date is marked 1948, so the company was around for a while.


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## Berkshire117 (May 22, 2015)

*Re:  RE: CHARLES RYAN EMBOSSED SODA*

I have three different Charles Ryan north Adams bottles. The same one listed in the original post, a Hutchinson and a blob pint. Dlouis...any pic of that bottle? I live in north Adams near the Williams town border


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## Timskids327 (Apr 30, 2021)

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Dang!  I forgot to put a check mark in the little box.


I have one like that but it says Chas Ryan instead of Charles Ryan


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## Timskids327 (Apr 30, 2021)




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