# Need help identifying Canadian bottle



## Catcat16 (Mar 8, 2020)

I found something two days ago and was hoping for some info. 
It says Canada on the front so I assume it’s a company from there. It’s a pioneers liquor bottle. With a fancy honey comb design. I have found 1 other kind of pioneer bottle online but non like mine. It appears to have a picture of a man wearing a hat embossed on the front 




along with a horse and uh... cow? Maybe? Can’t really tell what that picture is on the right hand side of the man. 

The bottom text says as follows



“ pioneer distillers limited
Amhrrstburg, Ontario Canada “



the pontil text says pioneer 1 distillers Ltd.



Clear bottle about 8” tall about 4” wide with a honey comb designe all over. The back has the honey comb embossed along with some symbol of what looks like lettering maybe a (p.a.v) Not sure you can see it in the pictures though. Other then that it’s plain with just a square space where I’d assume a label would go just like the front. And as you can see it’s a cork top.



if you can help me date it, that would be awesome. I’m also wondering if the (limited and Ltd) on the bottle mean it was a Limited edition? I’m hoping to get an idea of its value as well. I’m sure it’s probably not worth too much since it’s clear and most of my whiskey bottles I find. As neat as they are, always seem not to have much value past 20$ at the highest.  Any info would help. I imprinted it’s embossed pictures/text because this bottle was kinda hard to get clear photos of. Thanks for reading!


----------



## CanadianBottles (Mar 8, 2020)

Not sure if you saw my response to your post about this on another thread.  It's almost certainly from the Prohibition era and made with the intent of being smuggled into the States.  Ontario had prohibition in the 20s as well but it was still legal to make liquor for the "export" market.  The "Ltd" just means that Pioneer Distillers is a limited company, it's equivalent to Inc.  Most Canadian companies have "Ltd." at the end of their name.  I'm not sure what the value on one of these is exactly, but they don't seem to have much collector's interest.  Outside of sodas and milks most ABM bottles don't have much collector's interest yet.  Still, it's a cool link to the past of the roaring twenties and bootleggers, so it's got that going for it!
Also, just FYI the thing on the bottom of this bottle isn't a pontil, it's an Owens scar which was left behind on most machine-made bottles until recently.  Pontils are only found on hand-made bottles.


----------



## Catcat16 (Mar 9, 2020)

CanadianBottles said:


> Not sure if you saw my response to your post about this on another thread.  It's almost certainly from the Prohibition era and made with the intent of being smuggled into the States.  Ontario had prohibition in the 20s as well but it was still legal to make liquor for the "export" market.  The "Ltd" just means that Pioneer Distillers is a limited company, it's equivalent to Inc.  Most Canadian companies have "Ltd." at the end of their name.  I'm not sure what the value on one of these is exactly, but they don't seem to have much collector's interest.  Outside of sodas and milks most ABM bottles don't have much collector's interest yet.  Still, it's a cool link to the past of the roaring twenties and bootleggers, so it's got that going for it!
> Also, just FYI the thing on the bottom of this bottle isn't a pontil, it's an Owens scar which was left behind on most machine-made bottles until recently.  Pontils are only found on hand-made bottles.


 
I’ve gotten so much info from your reply thank you! Ok so how can I tell the difference from a abm and hand made? I thought I figured it out but I guess not. I was told in a YouTube video that if it has a pontil scar (which I thought this one had) and a cork top with no seems that go over the lip that it was hand made. How do I tell the difference between a Owens scar and a pontil scar? Does it have to do with depth of the scar? Sorry for all the questions. I’m just very into this hobby and have so much to learn and have tons of questions.

ive been identifying them by screw top mostly. Like if it’s a screw top I know it’s not as old. Or if it says federal lawforbids etc.. I know it came after the prohibition area. I know some corks were made after the abm as well and you know them by the seem that goes over the lip of the bottle. I’m still trying to learn about the scars though. Do you have any examples? Thank you for your help thus far


----------



## Ann M. (Mar 9, 2020)

CanadianBottles said:


> Not sure if you saw my response to your post about this on another thread.  It's almost certainly from the Prohibition era and made with the intent of being smuggled into the States.  Ontario had prohibition in the 20s as well but it was still legal to make liquor for the "export" market.  The "Ltd" just means that Pioneer Distillers is a limited company, it's equivalent to Inc.  Most Canadian companies have "Ltd." at the end of their name.  I'm not sure what the value on one of these is exactly, but they don't seem to have much collector's interest.  Outside of sodas and milks most ABM bottles don't have much collector's interest yet.  Still, it's a cool link to the past of the roaring twenties and bootleggers, so it's got that going for it!
> Also, just FYI the thing on the bottom of this bottle isn't a pontil, it's an Owens scar which was left behind on most machine-made bottles until recently.  Pontils are only found on hand-made bottles.


----------



## Ann M. (Mar 9, 2020)

This is a great site!!


----------



## CanadianBottles (Mar 9, 2020)

Not all hand blown bottles have a pontil scar.  Usually look for bottles where the seam doesn't go above the lip because that's usually (though not quite always) the way to tell it's hand-made.  Once you've seen enough hand-made bottles it becomes quite clear from looking at them how they were made, at least for American bottles.  The glass has a distinctly different look for the hand-made ones - just kind of a nicer, softer look in general while the machine-made glass has a hard, mass-produced look.  

Pretty much everything you'll find in the 1930s era you seem to be digging in will have an Owens scar.  Owens scars are recessed into the base and tend to be quite wide.  Pontils usually stick out from the base and have a jagged surface, except for iron pontils which are covered with grey residue.  Most bottles in the 1920s-30s era you seem to be digging in will have Owens scars, and since pontils were phased out in the States around the time of the Civil War you aren't likely to come across many of those except on artisanal glass, where you can still find pontils on modern pieces, or very rarely European bottles.

Screw tops can actually be older than people tend to think, and some are definitely hand-made.  Ketchup bottles and flasks from the 1890s, for example, can have screw tops.  And some very old fruit jars have screw tops.  Identifying things by cork tops doesn't mean anything when it comes to liquor bottles, as a trip to your local liquor store will demonstrate.  It does indicate age for medicine bottles though.  

No worries about asking for help, we've all got to learn somewhere!  I'll post some pictures in a second post for reference.


----------



## CanadianBottles (Mar 9, 2020)

This is a standard open pontil - note the jagged edge: 



This is an iron pontil:



This is an Owens scar - note that it's rough and recessed:



This is a hand-made bottle without a pontil - the circle is a seam from the mold:




And for further reference, here's a site which goes into a lot of detail and should probably clear up all your questions: https://sha.org/bottle/dating.htm


----------



## MKay (Mar 16, 2020)

Hey! I saw your post when I was trying to find info on the same bottle and wanted to reply. I found a stash of empty whisky bottles the other day in the floorboards of my 3rd floor victorian in Pittsburgh that I'm renovating. This one has a label, so hopefully it can help you just a little!


----------



## hemihampton (Mar 16, 2020)

Hmmm, Interesting label on back. Let me know if you find any old Beer Cans in the floorboards or Renovation. LEON.


----------



## Ann M. (Mar 16, 2020)

MKay said:


> Hey! I saw your post when I was trying to find info on the same bottle and wanted to reply. I found a stash of empty whisky bottles the other day in the floorboards of my 3rd floor victorian in Pittsburgh that I'm renovating. This one has a label, so hopefully it can help you just a little!
> 
> View attachment 204084
> View attachment 204085


Th


MKay said:


> Hey! I saw your post when I was trying to find info on the same bottle and wanted to reply. I found a stash of empty whisky bottles the other day in the floorboards of my 3rd floor victorian in Pittsburgh that I'm renovating. This one has a label, so hopefully it can help you just a little!
> 
> View attachment 204084
> View attachment 204085


That's a beautiful bottle! The only one I have that's similar is an amber Four Roses pint whiskey bottle. Great label!!


----------



## Ann M. (Mar 16, 2020)

Ann M. said:


> Th
> 
> That's a beautiful bottle! The only one I have that's similar is an amber Four Roses pint whiskey bottle. Great label!!


----------

