# 7up BOTTLES  ~  OUTSIDE THE BOX



## SODAPOPBOB

I've come up with some crazy stuff before but this one is likely to be the craziest of them all. So please keep this confession in mind during the course of this thread as I openly admit this is pretty far fetched. But then again, maybe not. Maybe I've discovered something that has been right in front of our eyes for years but we just never noticed it before. For starters, study these three 7up bottles closely and I will be back shortly with the crazy part ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

While you're at it, please study this 7up paper label as well ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Now study this close up of the 7 ounce green acl and notice where I added an arrow and printed ...

1. Lip
2. Rounded

A.  By 'Lip' I am referring to the portion of the white part that extends or hangs over.
B.  By 'Rounded' I am referring to the portion of the white part that curves inward toward the bottom of the label.


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## SODAPOPBOB

And now for the crazy part!


Is it even remotely possible that the white portion of the label was intended to represent this ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Crazy - Right?

Maybe not! 

Something tells me that whoever designed the label had a specific reason for including the overhanging lip and the rounded part that curves in.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Notice that the paper label bottle I posted has two overhanging designs on it that might be described as 'search lights'


Notice that the paper label I posted by itself has three overhanging designs on it that might be described as 'search lights'


But notice that on neither one of the paper labels does it have the overhanging lip, nor does the lower part curve in - they are both vertically straight


What I'm calling the 'Champagne Glass' label only occurs on the acl painted label bottles. *Why?*


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## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> And now for the crazy part!
> 
> 
> Is it even remotely possible that the white portion of the label was intended to represent this ...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 167931



Yeah Bob, that sounds crazy alright. But it could be true. Who came  up with that ACL design? That would be the next question. And probably a  very hard one to figure out.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Which brings us to this 7up knockoff ...

Hmm, I find it interesting that the swimsuit girl just happens to be holding a *champagne glass*


*Lemon-Up*


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## SODAPOPBOB

For side-by-side comparison ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Is there a clue to be found here?


http://www.printmag.com/design-inspiration/howdy-7up/


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## iggyworf

I couldn't find anything pertaining to you champagne glass.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:


> I couldn't find anything pertaining to you champagne glass.




Hey, iggy


I'm still searching for various possibilities and/or connections, but wanted to ask ...


Isn't one of the popular aspects of champagne that when its poured the bubbles *rise up and out of the glass*?


Maybe the rising bubbles above the swimsuit girl are coming out of a *glass*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.



If not from a champagne-type glass, then where are the bubbles coming from that are rising above the swimsuit girl?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I wonder what types of *hangovers* they were referring to in this *1937* ad? Is it possible to get a hangover from drinking too much champagne?


Note:  This was a popular ad campaign in the early days of 7up


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## SODAPOPBOB

By the way, the so called swimsuit girl wasn't always a swimmer - she started out as a 'flying girl' as illustrated in this early 1930s cardboard sign ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of flying ... (Late 1920s / Early 1930s)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding the evolution of the 7up bottle ...


I did a thorough search of early paper labels and could not find a single one that has my so called 'champagne glass' design on it. The 'champagne glass' design only appears on acl/painted label bottles. The earliest confirmed acl 7up bottles are dated 1935. 

Shown here are two 1935 7up acl bottles. Notice the first one does not have the swimsuit girl nor any bubbles. The second one is amber (from San Diego) and has ...

1.  The Swimsuit Girl
2.  Bubbles
3.  White 'champagne glass' design 


So whatever it might have been that influenced the so called 'champagne glass' design, it happened around 1935 


Note:  I've never seen or heard of a 1935 *green* 7up acl and I'm confident they did not come out until 1936-37 at the earliest.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Clarification / No Edit Available


When I said ...

"I've never seen or heard of a 1935 green 7up acl ..."

What I meant was...

"I've never seen or heard of a 1935 green 7up acl *with a swimsuit girl label*"


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## SODAPOPBOB

Or ...

Is what I'm seeing possibly intended to replicate one of these?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Or ...


Am I crazy and just imagining things that aren't there?


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.


Please don't answer that last question yet - To be continued ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

The thing that led me to the Mortar & Pestle idea is because of what it says on the early paper labels I've been looking at ...


"For *Hospital* or home use."


This particular example is from member Morbious_fod's website - dated 1935 - which I can trust is accurately dated!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Now you can call me crazy! But before you do, please tell me which of the following you see? And if neither of the following, do you have any ideas as to why they designed that portion of the label with what appears to be a 'lip' and 'curves' inward?  

1.  Champagne Glass?
2.  Chemist Mortar without a Pestle?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm going to wrap things up for the day with these pictures. I especially like these particular pictures because it is a straight on view showing the entire label. Plus, by comparing them you can get a better sense of what I'm seeing - or should I say - what I "think" I see?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ...

Do You Hear What I Hear?

Said the night wind to the little lamb,
*do you see what I see*
Way up in the sky, little lamb,
do you see what I see
A star, a star, dancing in the night
With a tail as big as a kite
With a tail as big as a kite

Said the little lamb to the shepherd boy,
do you hear what I hear
Ringing through the sky, shepherd boy,
do you hear what I hear
A song, a song, high above the trees
With a voice as big as the sea
With a voice as big as the sea

Said the shepherd boy to the mighty king,
do you know what I know
In your palace warm, mighty king,
do you know what I know
A Child, a Child shivers in the cold
Let us bring Him silver and gold
Let us bring Him silver and gold
Said the king to the people everywhere,
listen to what I say
Pray for peace, people everywhere!
listen to what I say
The Child, the Child, sleeping in the night
He will bring us goodness and light
He will bring us goodness and light


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## Canadacan

Well I see it.... never really gave it any thought beyond just being graphics, it would be interesting to know what the artist was really meaning it to represent....if anything at all .... And no your not crazy it's there!


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## jblaylock

I agree, you're onto something. Why else have that lip on the side....

Sent from my Manta on tapatalk


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## CreekWalker

I agree, The champagne glass theory seems to fit in with that original label. As does the swimmer girl, who needs a place to swim.


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## cowseatmaize

I thought it was Esther Williams that inspired the swimsuit girl but maybe it was the other way around and she was inspired by 7up®. I didn't know it preceded her.


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## Dansalata

interesting


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## jblaylock

Bob,

When you post photos, after you add them in, before submitting the reply, double click the photo and it will give you the option to have it larger in the post, not just the small thumbnail.


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## iggyworf

I would have added 2cents last nite, but my comp monitor is freaking out. I do see the champagne glass in the logo but nothing else in the other logo's. On all my bottles, just the swimsuit girl ones have the 'champagne' logo.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks for the comments and support - maybe I'm not crazy after all. 

This is one of the earliest 7up ads I can find, from ... 

The Burlington Hawk-Eye ~ Burlington, Iowa ~ December 25, 1931

(I'm confused about the double-click enlargement because it appears in code before submitting and not the image itself)


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## iggyworf

Oh well your crazy for sure Bob, but so are all of us. All I could find is that the logo is referred to as a 'shield'. but your champagne glass sure does fit.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This ad is about three years prior to the introduction of their first acl label, but it suggest that someone was thinking along the same lines as we are ...

From ...

The Woodland Daily Democrat ~ Woodland, California ~ July 23, *1932*


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## jblaylock

I feel like the Champagne glass is the most likely option.  It fits in with the bubbles.  Thought on contacting 7up, finding


Also, for the photos, I'm assuming you're attaching them, never mind then.  You can enlarge photos from linking a URL.


Not sure if there is anything here, but interesting propaganda anyways:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=995&v=f7wQb1Y4E_M


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## jblaylock

jblaylock said:


> I feel like the Champagne glass is the most likely option.  It fits in with the bubbles.  Thought on contacting 7up, finding
> 
> 
> Also, for the photos, I'm assuming you're attaching them, never mind then.  You can enlarge photos from linking a URL.
> 
> 
> Not sure if there is anything here, but interesting propaganda anyways:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=995&v=f7wQb1Y4E_M




Let me try that again:


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## SODAPOPBOB

Josh:

Great video - I watched it all the way through - twice!

I have been searching for information that might explain the transition from paper label 7up bottles to acls but haven't found anything specific. Its almost as if the acls just showed up on the market one day and that was that without any fanfare. One thing is certain, though, and that's that 7up was primarily advertised as a health drink early on with emphasis as a cure for hangovers, stomach disorders, and slenderizing benefits for women. It wasn't until around 1939 when they finally started focusing their advertising as an everyday soft drink for the entire family. Prior to that it seems the main focus was with booze and its after effects. This booze connection might tie in with my so called 'champagne glass' theory, but if it does, I can not find anything specific to confirm it. 

During the course of my searching I found a couple of newspaper ads I had never seen before and thought were interesting. Both ads depict a paper label I've never seen and can't help but wonder if they were ever actually used. At first I thought it might be a local label used by a single bottler, but then discovered the same label was depicted in two different newspapers in two different states. Notice in the second ad that it depicts both the paper label as well as the relatively new acl label.

From ...

1.  The Plain Speaker ~ Hazelton, Pennsylvania ` July 31, 1936

2.  The Daily Capital News ~ Jefferson City, Missouri ~ December 1, 1937


(Has anyone ever seen one of these paper labels? They look like a predecessor to the 1950s 'shield' label)


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## SODAPOPBOB

For comparison to the paper labels in the last ad, here is what I'm calling a 'shield label' acl bottle ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Opps, that was an error acl. 

Here's another one, plus the 1936 ad again for side-by-side comparison ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm a little curious about this unknown label. I couldn't straighten it properly but was able to crop it for closer inspection. By the way, I did an extensive search and the only examples of this label I can find are in newspaper ads. I can not find an actual example of it anywhere. So I guess we're jumping from one mystery to another.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I don't think I ever posted this entire article before but can't think of a better place for it than here and now. If we can't find a clue to the 'champagne glass' design in this article then it probably won't be found anywhere. It was written by Bill Lockhart and first published in a 2007 edition of the 'Soda Fizz' magazine. 


(If too small to read - save it to your files and check it out there)



(1-2-3 of 5)


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## SODAPOPBOB

(4-5 of 5)


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

When you get to the paper label part of the article, notice there is no mention of our mystery paper label from 1936 and 1937


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## SODAPOPBOB

*In Search Of*


The earliest *green glass* 7up bottle that has an *ACL Label* with the *swimsuit girl*. I doubt there are any 1935 examples out there, but there might be some 1936 examples. I know for certain there are 1937 and 1938 examples.


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## Canadacan

This is a bit off topic but I've seen paper labels later than what the article states of 1938 .... they were used right into the 1950's 
Also the U7P embossed neck label was used on a 30 oz bottle I have dated 1945.
As for that mystery label....was something similar not used on signs?


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## Canadacan

This is along the lines of similarities to the ad.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Interesting sign and somewhat resembles the label from the 1936 ad ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

And there's this - Coincidence or Connection?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I wonder what they mean in this ad when they say ...


"*Watch for the Label*"


The Sunday News and Tribune ~ Jefferson City, Missouri ~ January 19, *1936*


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## SODAPOPBOB

And why does this ad say "Read the new label" but show a bottle with a label I haven't been able to identify yet? Not to mention its a 1940 ad!

The Montana Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ November 29, *1940*


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## iggyworf

Here is a bottle with the arrow's on just the neck label. 8 bubble. But this person in my opinion is extremely high on there prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1930s-...939749?hash=item4aef464525:g:KxUAAOSwKIpWEfMA


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## iggyworf

Paper label swimsuit girl. Kind of

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-7-UP-...hash=item4846a142ef:m:mqhrQ_oyS8zs1b6kO_-_rlA


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## Canadacan

SODAPOPBOB said:


> I wonder what they mean in this ad when they say .
> "*Watch for the Label*"
> 
> 
> The Sunday News and Tribune ~ Jefferson City, Missouri ~ January 19, *1936*
> 
> 
> View attachment 168015



They mean it literally.... To insure that you have the real 7up


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## SODAPOPBOB

Is the following just more crazy stuff - or is it possibly an explanation? You be the judge!


I subtitled this thread "Outside The Box" and have tried to keep that theme in mind during the course of my research. Even though it was I who first suggested the white part of the label might have been designed to represent a champagne glass, I have to confess that the squared edge of the design has bothered me from the very beginning. If it was intended to replicate a champagne glass, then why didn't the designer draw that portion with a flared lip like that of a typical champagne glass instead of showing it with a squared edge? With that said, I want to reiterate my belief the design was done intentionally and that the designer had something specific in mind when he designed it. 

Please be reminded that prior to being called 7up, the brand was first called 'Bib-Label Lithiated Lemon-Lime Soda," and then a little later changed to "7up Lithiated Lemon Soda" and eventually, around 1935, shortened simply to '7up.' Which brings us to the common denominator, which is 'Lithium' and/or 'Lithium Citrate' or whatever form of Lithium it might have been. But did you know that in its natural state Lithium is a rock-like mineral that needs to be ground into a powder before being used as an additive? Which brings us to my new theory, and one which will I believe will account for the squared edge of the label design. 

Like they say, "Three pictures are worth a thousand words." 




1.  Lithium Mineral
2.  Mortar & Pestle
3.  Powdered Lithium Citrate


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## SODAPOPBOB

New side-by-side comparison ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

The $64,000.00 Question ...


*Champagne Glass or Chemist Mortar?*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Go to eBay and search 'Antique Mortar and Pestle' and about 400 examples with come up. Be sure to use the word 'antique' otherwise it will pull up about 1,000 different varieties, many of which are new. Notice on the 'antique' examples that many of them have lips or rims, as opposed to the newer one's that are typically smooth around the rim.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Talk about crazy ...


Is it possible that the 7up part of the label, which sort of appears to be 'inside' of the white Mortar, was intended to represent the Pedstle grinding the Lithium?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Back to Champagne glasses ...


I was curious what a circa 1935 champagne glass looked like and discovered they came in numerous shapes and sizes, so I went to eBay and searched '1935 Champagne Ad' to see if there was some type of norm that advertising artist were using at the time and this particular ad appears at least three times, suggesting it was widely used in magazines and depicts what might be considered a typical champagne glass from 1935. Notice it does not have a 'square-edged' rim. In fact, of the jillion champagne glasses I looked at, not a single one had a 'square-edged' rim! 



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-Great-...078612?hash=item20d508d254:g:gccAAOxyn~pR3E7C


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## Canadacan

Strange thing as I was out today the very thought crossed my mind also!...why dose a champaign glass have a square lip like that?... Well any rendition I've seen its usually smooth edged.
The mortar makes more sense, after all it was introducrd as a medicinal hang over cure right?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly (For the time being)


We may never know what the designer of the 1935 7up label had in mind, nor who in the company might have had an influence on the final design. But one thing seems certain to me, which is, the designer could easily have smoothed, rounded, or flared the edge, but for some specific reason squared it off. Notice some of the other details, such as the fine lines required to illustrate the swimsuit girl, and we can see it wasn't because of an inability to depict minute details that led to the squared-off edge, it was done for some other reason, and I believe that reason was intentional.


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## SODAPOPBOB

One more for the road ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Canadacan said:


> after all it was introducrd as a medicinal hang over cure right?





Right!


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## SODAPOPBOB

As most of us know, 7up was invented by Charles Leiper Grigg around 1928-29. But prior to that, Grigg was involved with two other brands of soft drinks, namely 'Whistle' around 1919 and 'Howdy Orange' around 1920. It was during the Howdy years that Grigg developed 7up. Grigg started out with Sylvester 'Vess' Jones as an advertising agent around 1919 and then moved on to start his own soft drink line, Howdy, around 1920. Between 1927 and 1929, Grigg patented two soda bottles, both of which were used in conjunction with 'Howdy Orange.' What I will be attempting to do is to see if any of Grigg's Howdy bottles or early advertising might have had an influence on the design of his first acl 7up bottle(s) in 1935. For starters, here are the patents for his Howdy bottles. Both are pre-acl and have a curved feature near the bottom, but I don't want to make too much of that yet until I have a full spectrum of his other advertising items. 

(To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB

I wanted to add this real quick and will be back with more later ...


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## iggyworf

Here is an older Howdy bottle on fleebay. The one with the embossed cross.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VTG-HOWDY-C...625584?hash=item1a0a664a70:g:8QUAAOSwpDdVOoGv


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Thanks for the link. I have been looking at that bottle design but haven't found anything specific that would connect it to the  1935 7up acl. 

I just found this that I thought was interesting. It is possibly the very earliest advertisement for 7up ever published. Of particular interest is the 7up image at the top. I have never seen one like it. It is a one page article that appeared in ...

*The Crown Magazine ~ Volume 17 ~ No. 4 ~ December 1928*

I'm not sure what all of the text says, but a portion of it reads ...

ST.LOUIS ''HOWDY SODA COMPANY'' WILL BE GIVING 7-UP FRANCHISES AFTER THEY HAVE TESTED SEVEN-UP IN THEIR OWN PLANT. NATURAL CARAMEL COLOR. ONE GALLON OF SEVEN-UP AND CROWNS TO BOTTLE IT WITH WILL COST 16.00.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is a copy/pasted portion of an early 7up article and is the first time I have come across a reference for ...

*Powered Reagent*

(I currently don't know a thing about it but plan to investigate it)


"Pure cane sugar is used exclusively and, the Braun Corporation, a California industry, furnishes the citric acid required. The reagent — in a powder form — is truly the secret of 7-UP formula, supplied with each shipment of the syrup. In the finished drink this powder reacts to any bacteria that might, accidently, exist, and at the same time adds sparkle."


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## iggyworf

Just a tidbit. In the beginning 7up was actually caramel colored and not clear like today.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.


Is it possible the 'Powdered Reagent' ties in with my mortar and pestle theory?


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:


> Just a tidbit. In the beginning 7up was actually caramel colored and not clear like today.



Yeah, I noticed that and have seen several references to it. The weird thing is, when they actually started producing it in quantity their claim to fame was all about a "sparkling clear beverage."  ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of 'Reagents' ...


Second sentence - underlined in red ... "new reagents"


The Plain Speaker ~ Hazelton, Pennsylvania ~ July 31, *1936*


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## SODAPOPBOB

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it seems apparent that just about everything related to the early days of 7up has a certain "Pharmaceutical" feel to it. All that stuff about health benefits, both physical and mental, seems to have been the niche that Charles Grigg was trying to fill. So it really wouldn't surprise me when it came time to design a new bottle that Grigg and his team had their 'pharmaceutical' hats on.


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## CreekWalker

Bob, thanks for the 7 Up research, the mortar theory sounds plausible, although I wonder why the image was used long after, the medical aspect of the product, was discontinued.   Have a great Holiday!


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## SODAPOPBOB

CreekWalker said:


> I wonder why the image was used long after the medical aspect of the product was discontinued.



CW

I'm not sure why the swimsuit girl label was used as long as it was but do know it was used between 1935 and about 1958 when the so called shield label was introduced. I suppose the same thing could be asked about other brands such as Coca Cola who used the embossed hobbleskirt bottle between about 1917 and 1955 when their first acl bottle was introduced. I guess once a brand image is established and recognized worldwide its hard to risk changing it. 

Have a great Christmas


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## SODAPOPBOB

These 7up serving trays are collector items from the 1990s but are ideal for getting a full sense of what the swimsuit girl label looked like ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm usually pretty good at finding things - but wouldn't ya know it - the one time I stumble on to what might be the best clue yet involving the 1935 7up *label* and all I can find is fringe information but no details. I know the official doc-u-ment is out there somewhere but I'll be danged if I can find it. Maybe someone else can find it and hang it on the highest bough of the Christmas tree for the whole world to see. 

Here's all I have been able to find so far, which is from the 1935 ...

*Official Gazette of the United States Patent Office* 


Patent Office. LABELS REGISTERED DECEMBER 3, 1935 
PRINTS REGISTERED DECEMBER 3, 1935 
REISSUES Max Hamber, Philadelphia, Pa. 
Published October 25, 1935. 46,800.— Title: 7-UP. 
For a Mixer Beverage. The Howdy ...


Especially notice the patent number *46,800*


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## SODAPOPBOB

The label patent information I just posted doesn't appear to be directly related to these, which have different dates and different patent numbers. The number *46,800* does not appear on either of these two doc-u-ments ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Santa likes it, too!


Merry Christmas to all - I'll be gone for a couple of days but will see ya'all when I get back*


Sodapopbob


[1949]


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## bottle-o-pop

My opinion is that the 'champagne glass' motif is not really signifying champagne, and definitely not a mortar-and-pestle, but instead it's a branding recognition/promotion of the use of 7-up as a popular mixer for alcoholic drinks.  It gives a subliminal message - 'hey this is also a favorite alcoholic drink mixer!'.


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## Canadacan

A couple of notes... The swimsuit girl was used on bottles in Canada at least until 1953... the same year the sheild lable came out, I have both bottles on my shelf. Was the swimsuit girl really used untill 1958?
The second note is that the medicinal ingredient ( lithium citrate)was used untill  the FDA bnned it from soda drinks in 1948.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding the general consensus for a few 7up dates ...

1929 = Charles L. Grigg's son, Hamblett C. Grigg, joins the company as resident artist
1932 = Likely first year of 7up paper labels  
1935 = First ACL label introduced 
1936 = The Howdy Company changed to The Seven-Up Company
1938 = Paper labels pretty much discontinued
1948 = Lithium discontinued
1955 = Swimsuit label changed to Shield label


The two paper labels pictured here are similar but in the lower right corner one has ...

1.  Copyright-symbol ~ 1935 ~ By The Howdy Company
2.  Copyright-symbol ~ 1935 ~ By The Seven-Up Company 



(To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB

There are too many similarities between the earlier paper labels and the later acl labels for me to not believe the paper label design influenced the acl design. Both labels (paper and acl) have ...

1.  The slenderizing / swimsuit girl
2.  Bubbles
3.  The white background
4.  The boxed 7up inserted into/over the white background
5.  Overhanging line(s) on the white background
6.  Edge of white background angling away from the line(s) - Slanting angle on the paper label and rounded on acl label


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## SODAPOPBOB

But two key questions still remained unanswered regarding the *acl* label ...

1.  Why did they design the acl label with an overhanging lip/rim on the left side?
2.  Why did they round-off the white background on the left side of acl label ?


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is just one of several reference I have seen showing that Hamblett Charles Grigg was an artist - which leads me to believe he was directly involved with the paper label design as well as the acl design ... 


http://adage.com/article/adage-encyclopedia/7up-dr-pepper/98877/


"Hamblett Charles Grigg, son of the founder, had joined the company as a marketer and designer. H.C. Grigg, who had studied art, produced the product's first logo, the number seven with wings."


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## SODAPOPBOB

This pdf link is to what I consider a very well researched historical account of the early days of 7up. It includes the name of the company that Charles L Grigg worked for between his time with the 'Whistle Company' and the 'Howdy Company. Most accounts do not include or know the name of that transition company ...


http://dnr.mo.gov/shpo/nps-nr/04000089.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.


The name of the transition company was ...

*Warner-Jenkinson Company ~ St. Louis, Missouri*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Paper Label vs ACL Label  ~  The Same But Different  ~  Similar


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's something you don't see everyday. In fact, I've never seen one! It was described as 1950s but there is no confirmation on that and could be much earlier. I guess you could call it a gin glass with a swimsuit girl wearing an apron label. It reads ...

First woman says "Fill to here with GIN" (And is pointing to a line near the bottom). 
Second woman says "Then put a drop of LEMON in"
Third woman says "Now for a drink that's Extra Fine-With 7up fill to this line!" (While pointing to the top line).


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is mainly for Canadacan ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

If you didn't think I was crazy before, you will now ...


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## Canadacan

Hey thanks for posting that counter sign!... Very cool to see it was an actual patern of signs used.
But to see that bottom bottle!...... That is definitely a 7 !!!!!
I'm in shock to say the least... Lol
So the interesting thing is that it's on a 7 bubble bottle right?  It would be nice to know the year of manufacture.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Canadacan said:


> But to see that bottom bottle!...... That is definitely a 7 !!!!!
> I'm in shock to say the least... Lol
> So the interesting thing is that it's on a 7 bubble bottle right?  It would be nice to know the year of manufacture.




Um, ah... Wrong! The top bottle and the bottom bottle are the same bottle. I photo-edited the bottom bottle and added the 7.  Sorry if I misled anyone - I was trying to draw attention to the portion of the label with the squared-off overhang.


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## Canadacan

Uhhh oh...  ..... Well good job on the editing...lol, I've been viewing on my mobile and the screen it pretty small, without the note that this photo was edited you had me!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on what I've been reading, I have reason to believe it was Charles Grigg's son, Hamblett "Ham" Grigg, that designed the swimsuit girl label. Hamblett joined the company in 1929 at the age of 24 and is credited with having designed the first 7up Flying-7 logo. Because he was an accomplished commercial artist, its possible that he designed the swimsuit girl label singlehandedly. According to Ancestry.com, Hamblett was the president of his high school art club for two years and went to Cleveland High in St. Louis, Missouri. In 1923 at the age of 17 he helped design the school's yearbook, The Beacon. He was born in 1906 and died in 1977 at the age of 71 years old.

Here's a brief article about him from ...


The Holland Evening Sentinel ~ Holland, Michigan ~ August 14, 1969

(Plus the Flying-7 Logo he designed in 1928-29)


----------



## iggyworf

That's a great link to 7up up info Bob. All I have too add is my newest 8 bubble bottle. (again it only cost me just 8$) Now I just need one with an 8 bubble neck logo.


Also, I did notice this, probably insignificant, the 8 bubble '7' is different from the 7 bubble '7'. I've noticed this on quite a few of them. I am sure it's meaningless, just a slight change in the ACL change from 8 bubble to 7 bubble.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Nice bottle. It should date between 1936 and 1938. As for the difference between the bubbles, Bill Lockhart's article might have some info about the variations. Speaking of Bill Lockhart, I exchanged a few emails with him yesterday and he thinks I'm crazy. But he also said that he never gave it much thought and that anything is possible.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking about anything being possible, hold onto your snorkels because I'm going off the deep end with this one ...


----------



## iggyworf

WOW! 

My bottle is 1941. And so is my other 8 bubble.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hmm, looks like we need to do some more research. I was thinking 1938-39 was the last year(s) of the 8-bubble bottles.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

I stand corrected - there were 8-bubble bottles as late as 1941 and possibly even 1942. My aging memory isn't what it used to be.


----------



## iggyworf

That's what I thought also. But you did get me to check up on it again though. It's all good!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Bill Lockhart did at least three articles on 7up bottles. Here's a link to one you might not have seen. He even mentions my name in it (Bob Brown) for bringing to his attention the earliest known acl, which was a 1935 7up bottle at the time of the article but has since been changed to a 1934 Jumbo Cola. I contacted him a couple of years later about the Jumbo Cola bottle but he said it was too late to edit the earlier article. Anyway, here's the link and I'm also attaching a chart from the article. Save it to your files for future reference. 


http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap10b.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the 7up bottle I brought to Bill Lockhart's attention. Speaking of which, I wonder if that's a 'syrup throw' line at the bottom to let bottlers know how much syrup to add during the filling process?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Based on the Bill Lockhart article and everything I know about the 7up bottle I just posted a picture of, they were only produced during a single year, 1935


----------



## iggyworf

Bob, I haven't read that article yet, thanx. You might have seen this before. That bottle on this site.


http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/47842-7up-bottle-found-years-ago


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

That article is where I got the picture I just posted. I also noticed your contributions to the discussion. But what's a little weird is where Bill Lockhart says he's going to give that other guy credit for sharing the bottle. Except those comments, including yours, are from ten months ago, whereas my bringing the bottle to Bill's attention was five years ago. Maybe what Bill meant was that guy's particular bottle and not the bottle in general. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Correction ...

I just reread the thread and the email exchanges between that other guy and Bill Lockhart was in 2005 even though it was being discussed about ten months ago. But its still weird because if Bill said he was going to give that other guy credit, then I wonder why he accredited me instead?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

Even weirder is that the picture Bill used for his article indicates it came from eBay, and I'm pretty sure its a picture that the other guy (jacksprat) posted. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to the swimsuit bottle design ...

In the newspaper article I posted about Hamblett Grigg, it said that Grigg's art style was similar to the type of art by a well known commercial artist at the time, whose name was *John Held*. This Wikipedia link will tell you about John Held and the attachment is one of his magazine covers from 1925 - except his swimsuit people don't exactly look like Ham Grigg's swimsuit girl ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Held,_Jr.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And, yes, I honestly believe that Hamblett C. Grigg designed the 1935 7up swimsuit girl label! But whether I will ever be able to prove it is another matter.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Hamblett Grigg, here are two pages from two different yearbooks, both titled "The Beacon" from Cleveland High School in St. Louis, Missouri. 

1.  1922 - Junior

2.  1923 - Senior


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This link is to a yearbook website and opens on the 1923 issue of "The Beacon."  Except that you have to pay to join and see the full images - which I have not done but it will be a good reference for future researchers. It would be interesting to see some of Ham Grigg's artwork that is supposed to be scattered throughout the book.

Note:  You can take a peek at the pages without paying, but the images are too small to read. 


http://www.e-yearbook.com/sp/eybb?school=20187&year=1923


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still searching for information related to *Hamblett Grigg*, who we know joined his father's company in 1929 at the age of 24. There are still a lot of gaps I need to fill, especially between 1923 and 1929, which I'm assuming is when he went to college, even though I have yet to find confirmation that he actually attended college. But I was able to find this page from his senior year in High School in 1923 when he was 17 years old. For comparison I'm including a 1969 picture of him when he was 63 years old. 

[ 1923 Yearbook ~ The Beacon ~ Cleveland High School ~ St. Louis, Missouri ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

It seems more than coincidental to me that Hamblett Grigg joined the Howdy Company in 1929 and during that same year his father's "Bib-Label Lithiated Lemon-Lime Soda" was suddenly changed to "7up Lithiated Lemon Soda" had it not been for Hamblett's influence. 

Nor do I think it's a coincidence that almost out of nowhere we suddenly find these three design images appearing at or near the same time that Hamblett joined the Howdy Company. Not to mention the similarity between the three design images. 

1.  Newspaper Ad - 1931
2.  Sign - Exact date unknown but certainly early 1930s
3.  Bottle - 1935


----------



## dbv1919

I think you have it right sodapopbob, I'm still looking for one of those '35 bottles. Tough to find.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919

Thanks - I'm working on it. The 1935 bottles with the large 7 show up on eBay occasionally but I've never seen one while the listing was active - its always after they have sold. I expect one in excellent condition would get a lot of attention and sell for $???


I have been looking for these 7up trademarks for several days now and was excided when I stumbled onto them. I wish they had more information, but am happy with this for the time being. 


*1931*

WORD MARK:  7 UP

CARBONATED, NONALCOHOLIC, NONCEREAL, MALTLESS BEVERAGES.
SOLD AS SOFT DRINKS. 
FIRST USE: 1931. 
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1931  



*1936*

WORD MARK: 7 UP

CARBONATED, NONALCOHOLIC, NONCEREAL, MALTLESS BEVERAGES.
SOLD AS SOFT DRINKS. 
FIRST USE: 1936. 
FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 1936  

DESCRIPTION OF MARK: 
THE DRAWING IS FINED FOR THE COLORS EMERALD GREEN WHITE, AND AN ORANGE HUE OF RED.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

Where it says "An *Orange* Hue Of *Red*" on the 1936 trademark is the first time I have seen an official reference to the color and it should settle the debate once and for all as to the intended color on early 7up bottles. I say "intended color" because on some bottles its definitely a true shade of red.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For example ...


I own both of these bottles. The one on the left is 1937 and the one on the right is 1945. Notice the two different colors ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Notice in this cropped portion of the 1969 newspaper article about Hamblett Grigg where it says ... 

"Grigg adapted the art form to large 7-up advertisements and used them on the panels of 7-up *delivery trucks*.


This is the only picture of what appears to be a 1930s 7up delivery truck I have been able to find. I'm not sure about the date of the truck nor the date of the picture itself, except the accompanying information said the guy pictured was born in 1913.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm guessing the guy in the picture is no older than about 25 years old. If correct, then the picture would date to no later than about 1938. But what about the truck itself - are there any truck experts out there who can date the truck for us?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Delivery Trucks ...

1.  1933
2.  1935
3.  1940 (Both)


http://www.autopaper.com/1940-chevr...chure-coca-cola-pepsi-hires-root-beer-7up.php


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm no expert on delivery trucks, but because the one in question has the word "Alkaline" on it, I'm guessing the truck and picture are from 1935. Which would make the guy in the picture about 22 years old. I base this guess primarily on the bottle pictured here because it is the only 7up bottle I'm aware of that has the word "Alkaline" on it. I will have to double check, but I'm pretty sure they discontinued the term "Alkaline" by 1936.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Call me crazy, but I'm thinking the photo shows a whole truckload of the first 7up bottles that have the large 7 on them. And check out the wood crates - they are the only examples like it I can find. As for the slogan "Fresh Up With 7up" that goes all the way back to 1935 as well, as does the term Alkaline. 

Which means, if I'm right, the artwork on the truck and shield on the door could very well be the handy-work of Hamblett Grigg, per the reference in the 1969 newspaper article.


----------



## Canadacan

I'm no expert either but from what I can glean the truck could be a Chevrolet....1935 seems correct. Just for time period reference here is a Thorpe's truck in 1933 showing similar crate.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

CC

Fantastic picture! The only Thorpe 7up Bottling I could find was located in Oklahoma. Is your picture of that bottler?


I went back to Ancestry.com where I found the black & white photo and discovered the guy pictured in it was ...

Hildreth Martin MacDavid
Born in Los Angeles, Ca. in 1913
Died in 1992

Because U.S. Census records are taken only every ten years, in 1930 it list Hildreth as still in school and 17 years old. And then it jumps to 1940 where it list him as a Barrister, which is some type of lawyer. So I had to rely on directories to find what he did between 1930 and 1940. 

Note: I have learned over time that Directories either transfer information from the previous year or prepare the listings prior to their actual publication. In other words, listings for 1937 and 1938 were most likely compiled in 1936 and 1937. Plus, not all directory listings show who they worked for but rather just what their occupation was at the time.  

Directory listings for Hildreth MacDavid

1931 - Clerk - Coca Cola Company
1934 - Book Keeper
1935 - Clerk
1936 - Book Keeper
1937 - Driver
1938 - Driver

Which, when you take into account the way Directory listings are compiled, suggest that Hildreth MacDavid was likely a driver in 1936 and 1937. 

Note: I don't know for certain that Hildreth was a 7up driver in the photo, but it seems unlikely that a clerk or book keeper would wear a driver's uniform. 

Hence, I am circa dating the photo at 1936 or 1937.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is some type of ID card for Hildreth MacDavid when he was a clerk/book keeper for the Pasadena, Ca. Coca Cola Company in 1931. He was about 18 years old at the time.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ...

The truck itself in the photo could still be a 1935 model. ???


----------



## dbv1919

I cant remember where I read it but I think the 1935 alkaiine bottles were only made in Huntington West Virginia. Not sure if it is correct but I live about an hour from there and have searched antique stores there a few times with no luck. There used to be a large Owens Illinois plant there. They must have shipped them all out lol.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the only picture of the base I have for the 7up alkaline bottle. It was posted several years ago by member wonkapete. Notice its embossed with Dr. Pepper of Atlanta, Georgia. Its an Owens-Illinois bottle and wonkapete confirmed it was dated 1935. But he did not say and I can not make out which Owens-Illinois glass plant it was made in.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to "Outside The Box"

We may never know exactly what influenced the design on early 7up bottles, but I'm confident the paper labels had at least some influence on the acl labels. They are just too similar to be a coincidence ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of labels ...

The brand was first introduced in 1929 under the name of "*Bib-Label* Lithiated Lemon-Lime Soda." Although I have yet to find one, a bib label was apparently a paper label with a hole in it that hung on the neck and shoulder of the bottle. With this in mind, I'm thinking the white background on both the paper label bottles as well as the acl label bottles might in some way tie in with one of the so called bib labels. If we can find an original paper bib label, it might provide us with a clue or two.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Based on what little I could find regarding bib labels, they were apparently designed so they could be temporarily used on almost any type of bottle prior to when a company finally got around to producing a permanent label of some type. I believe bib labels were primarily used during test marketing.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Based on what little I could find regarding bib labels, they were apparently designed so they could be temporarily used on almost any type of bottle prior to when a company finally got around to producing a permanent label of some type. I believe bib labels were primarily used during test marketing.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Items such as the one shown here are typically referred to as 'soda bottle display toppers' but it is the closest thing I can find that will give us some idea of what a paper bib label looks like. I'm not sure about the date of this particular item but believe it is 1950s or 1960s. By the way, if you ever come across *any* item with Bib-Label Lithiated Lemon-Lime Soda on it, buy it because it could very well be one of the rarest soda pop items ever made. I have never even seen a picture of such an item and the only things I have seen references to are the bib labels themselves and a small cardboard sign that was designed to hang on the pull chains of store ceiling lights.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the closest thing I have ever found that might be one of the small cardboard signs that hung on the pull chains of store ceiling lights. And the only reason I think it 'might' have been designed to hang from something is because it has a small hole at the top. I'm not sure about the date of this particular item but because of the wording suspect it is early 1930s.


----------



## iggyworf

Up for grabs!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1930s-...281280?hash=item2ee9a32ec0:g:m9cAAOSwQiRUmcoa


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

There were *two* individuals named Hamblett *C* Grigg

Note:  I would have posted this earlier but just this morning connected the dots. 

1.  Hamblett *Clark* Grigg

Born: 1872
Died: 1964 - Age 92
Wife: Mary Maude Grigg
Younger brother of 7up founder, Charles Leiper Grigg, and referred to as Charles' partner in connection with the Howdy Company in 1921. The attached 1930 Census list him as an 'Office Clerk Soda Water Mfg.' 

I haven't fully researched him and probably won't at this time, but just wanted establish that he was also involved with the 7up Company along with his brother Charles. Most references show Hamblett as some type of clerk, but beyond that I'm not sure what his entire role comprised of with either the Howdy or 7up Company. 


2.  Hamblett *Charles* Grigg

Born: 1906
Died: 1977 - Age 71 
Son of Charles Leiper Grigg
Nephew of Hamblett Clark Grigg


[ 1930 U. S. Census - Shows ... Ham C Grigg - Charles L Grigg - Hamblett C Grigg ] [ Save and zoom for details ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*iggy

And so is this one ...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221976586869?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT*




iggyworf said:


> Up for grabs!
> View attachment 168240
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1930s-...281280?hash=item2ee9a32ec0:g:m9cAAOSwQiRUmcoa


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Food for thought ...


1.  *Carbonated* bubbles rise from a *liquid*

2.  *Soap* bubbles rise in the *air*

3.  Is the Slenderizing Lady/Swimsuit Girl *rising* to the surface through carbonated bubbles or *reaching* in the air for soap bubbles? 

4.  In other words, is she standing or swimming?

5. And are you *sure* about one or the other?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

6.  Or is she possibly standing on her toes and preparing to *dive* from a platform or diving board?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

7.  And is it even remotely possible that ...

A:  The three lines on the paper labels represent a diving board in motion?

B:  The squared-off overhang on the acl labels represent a diving platform?


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> 7.  And is it even remotely possible that ...
> 
> A:  The three lines on the paper labels represent a diving board in motion?
> 
> B:  The squared-off overhang on the acl labels represent a diving platform?
> 
> 
> View attachment 168244
> 
> View attachment 168245



That might be starting to get a little out there. But anything is possible.

I almost want to bid on that sign(the one in bad shape)


----------



## Canadacan

iggyworf said:


> That might be starting to get a little out there. But anything is possible.
> 
> I almost want to bid on that sign(the one in bad shape)



He could be!.......why not just buy the nice one!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm glad I subtitled this thread "Outside The Box" because this next series of entries is so far out there that you're going to think I have lost my mind. However, with so much going on today, I'm not sure I will have time to complete the whole thing, but will try my best. Its 12:00 Noon here on the west coast and I only have until about 4:00 PM to work on it, so please bare with me, as I might not be able to complete it until sometime tomorrow. 

For starters, check out these images and ask yourself if its possible they are in any way related? I'll tell you more about the black & white bottle image later but for now just know that its from 1927. The 7up ad is from 1931 ...

Question(s)

Same? / Similar? / Connected? / Coincidence? / None of the above?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Plus this color 'teaser' of the bottle image ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ... (To be tied in with this new theory later) 

Hamblett Grigg joined his father's 'Howdy Company' in 1929


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next up is the *1927* Howdy bottle ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops!

I attached the wrong Howdy bottle - that was the 1929 version - here's the 1927 example I intended to post - plus a 1928 newspaper ad showing the bottle was being advertised and used at the time ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which brings us to ...

(I'm sure that some of you already knew where I was going with this)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ...

This ain't the end yet - there's more craziness to follow!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For Comparison ...

(And still not done - Wait until you see what follows)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm getting there but please bare with me a little longer until I say THE END - but not yet!  

Question:

Who were the top-ten most popular *silent* movie stars during the 1920s? This link will tell you ...

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/gallery/2011/nov/06/ten-best-silent-movie-stars-in-pictures


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I bet you didn't see this coming ... (and still not the end)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Talk about a crazy theory ... (Nope - not the end yet - but almost)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops!

I messed that up! Let me try it again ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which brings us to this ... (Nope, not yet - there's more)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Remember the bottle and clouds images I posted earlier as a teaser? Well, now you know where I found them. Its these two images that started this crazy tangent on mine. I was searching for 'Howdy' related stuff on the newspaper archives site and this ad came up for a Charlie Chaplin silent movie titled ... 

*Shoulder Arms*

... which was first released in 1918 and then rereleased in 1927. 

This link will tell you more about it ...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_Arms


So I did a little research on the film and found the color poster from France that shows the bottle Charlie Chaplin is holding having the cork blown off by a bullet. 

Question: 

Is it even remotely possible that Hamblett Grigg, who we know was an artist, was also a Charlie Chaplin fan and designed the various bottles and labels as a tribute to him - but inverted Charlie's bowler hat as a subtle means of hiding it? And is it possible that we uncovered Hamblett's secret that he thought no one would discover in a million years? As more than one person said during the course of this thread ...

"*Anything is possible*"


(I'm not to the end yet - there's one more to follow)

[Attachments]

1.  Newspaper Advertisement - Rerelease - 1927
2.  Poster - Exact date unknown but possibly first release from 1918


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

THE END


Happy New Year


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Here are a couple of bonus images that we'll talk about 'next year' ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

Those aren't clouds in the Charlie Chaplin movie ads - its the champagne cork expelling carbonation as its being blown off!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ... (For sure this time!)


What better ending could this story have than popping the cork on a champagne bottle? 


Its 'Party Time' and I'm an hour late already ... but I hope you think it was worth it. 


Happy New Year

Soda*pop*bob


----------



## Canadacan

Yes well many artists had secrete things they painted or had drawn into works done by them, be it a family member in a scene or a an item that references a liking of theirs. 
The top of the bottle thing looks really related...not so sure about the hat?


----------



## iggyworf

GREAT STUFF BOB!!!!   Happy New Year to you and everyone else!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Well, its 'next year' and I wanted to point out the similarity between these two images, both of which might be described as a bulls-eye design. 

1st:

From ... The Crown (Cork & Seal) magazine ~ Volume 17 ~ No. 4 ~ December, 1928

2nd:  Howdy Sign ~ Exact date unknown but likely pre 7up  

Observation:  The so called 'bulls-eye' design in the 1928 magazine introducing 7up for the first time is very likely connected to the earlier Howdy 'bulls-eye'  -   Too similar in my opinion to be a coincidence. 




SODAPOPBOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> Here are a couple of bonus images that we'll talk about 'next year' ...
> 
> View attachment 168309
> 
> View attachment 168310


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which brings me to the Howdy bottle patents I'm a little confused about ...

Notice the first patent was filed in 1927 but was not registered until 1932 - Design number 86,163

Notice the second patent was filed in 1929 and registered in 1929 - Design number 78,351

Design numbers are always sequential, which means the 1927 patent was registered after the 1929 patent. Any yet the 1927 patent bottle was produced/advertised/used before the 1929 patent. ???



Here's the text description associated with each patent ...


*1927-1932*

Description  
Feb. 9, 1932. 
C. L. GRIGG 
Des. 86,163 

BOTTLE Filed Oct. 12, 1927


Patented Feb. 9, 1932 
Des. 86,163 

UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE CHARLES I.. GRIGG, OF ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, ASSIGNOR. T0 THE HOWDY COMPANY, OF ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, A CORPORATION OF MISSOURI DESIGN FOR A BOTTLE 
Application led October 12, 1927. Serial No. 23,727. Term of patent 7 years. 

To all whom it may concern.: In the drawings: 

Be it known that I, CHARLES L. GRIGG, a Fig. 1 is a perspective view of a bottle citizen of the United States, residing at 4012 showing my new design. Juniata Ave., in the city of St. Louis, State Fig. 2 is a like view of a bottle rotated 90 of Missouri, have invented a new, original, degrees showing my new design. And ornamental Design for Bottles, of which I claim: the following is a specification, reference The ornamental design for a bottle, as 

Being had to the accompanying drawings, shown. Forming part thereof. I CHARLES L. GRIGG. 







*1929-1939*

Description  
Des. 78,351 
C. L. GRIGG 
April 23, 1929. 

Filed Jan. 19, 1929 Patented Apr. 23, 1929. 
Des. 78,351 

UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE. 

CHARLES L. GRIGG, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, ASSIGNOR T0 HOWDY COMPANY, OF 

ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, A CORPORATION OF MISSOURI. 

DESIGN FOR A BOTTLE. 

Application filed January 19, 1929. Serial No. 29,684. Term of patent 14 years. 

To all whom it may concern: Figure 1 is a front View in elevation of 21 Be it known that 1, CHARLES L. GRIGG, a bottle, showing my new design. Figure 2 is citizen of the United States, residing at city a side View in elevation of the same design. 

Of St. Louis, in State of Missouri, have in- I claim: 

New, original, and ornamental Design

The ornamental design for a bottle, as Sign. 
For Bottles, of which the following is a shown. 

Specification, reference being had to the accompanying drawing, forming part thereof. CHARLES L. GRIGG.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Typo ...

The second design date should be 1929-1929 and not 1929-1939 ... (I miss the edit feature)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regardless of the dates, the designs are too similar in my opinion to be a coincidence and one likely influenced the other ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize I've covered this already, but wanted to show the earlier Howdy design patents (1927 and 1929) along with the later 7up design (1936) of the swimsuit label to show their similarity. I'm convinced the acl swimsuit label was at least partially influenced by the Howdy patent designs. All three have the so called overhanging lip and are curved, which I don't believe is a mere coincidence.

So if we are ever going to figure out what influenced the design in the first place, then I feel we will have to go back to at least as early as 1927 and possibly even earlier. Howdy Orange was first introduced in 1920.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And does the even earlier "Whistle" brand of soda pop tie in with this somehow?  I'm not sure either but plan to look into it and see what I can find. 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I don't know the exact date of this paper label 'Whistle' bottle, but I'm not entirely surprised about the design ...

[Image courtesy of member wonkapete]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the 1926 Whistle bottle patent by Sylvester "Vess" Jones ... plus a 1920s newspaper ad. I don't see an immediate connection to the Howdy and 7up designs, but it still needs some studying ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Let's place these together for comparison and study them for possible similarities ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ... 

This thread is subtitled "Outside The Box" which means anything and everything is allowed. Speaking of which, notice the word "Cloudy" on the Whistle paper label ...


----------



## iggyworf

Apparently, He put Lithia in his whistle soda as well.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Great find!  That's the first use of the word Lithia I have seen in connection with 'Whistle'


----------



## iggyworf

Found another one with better pic quality. both of them are from Montreal Canada.


I also have a 1920's embossed 
Whistle bottle, but not like the one you posted. It's more simple SS style, it might have had a PL but could not find one with any PL on it. Sorry I don't have a pic of it


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the heck of it, here's one variation of the Whistle bottle cap that went with the paper label bottle. The image was accompanied by this description ...

1919-1925 

In 1919, Charles Leiper Grigg, the inventor of 7UP, was working in St. Louis for the Vess Beverage Company owned by Vess Jones. During that year, Grigg invented and marketed his first soft drink called "Whistle". Imprinted with the slogan, “It’s cloudy in the bottle,” Whistle rose to become the company’s top seller.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm reposting this from page two to reiterate my belief that, even though these 1927 and 1929 patent designs were originally registered under the name of Charles L Grigg, I strongly believe they were actually 'drawn' by his son, Hamblett C Grigg ...   



SODAPOPBOB said:


> As most of us know, 7up was invented by Charles Leiper Grigg around 1928-29. But prior to that, Grigg was involved with two other brands of soft drinks, namely 'Whistle' around 1919 and 'Howdy Orange' around 1920. It was during the Howdy years that Grigg developed 7up. Grigg started out with Sylvester 'Vess' Jones as an advertising agent around 1919 and then moved on to start his own soft drink line, Howdy, around 1920. Between 1927 and 1929, Grigg patented two soda bottles, both of which were used in conjunction with 'Howdy Orange.' What I will be attempting to do is to see if any of Grigg's Howdy bottles or early advertising might have had an influence on the design of his first acl 7up bottle(s) in 1935. For starters, here are the patents for his Howdy bottles. Both are pre-acl and have a curved feature near the bottom, but I don't want to make too much of that yet until I have a full spectrum of his other advertising items.
> 
> (To be continued)
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 168043
> 
> 
> View attachment 168044


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. / Reminder ... 

Almost without exception, every reference credits Hamblett C Grigg as the designer of the 'Flying-7' logo in 1929, which is often referred to as the very first 7up design ever registered. I'm also studying it for a possible connection with the various other designs.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Its weird that early 7up advertised Lithium as being "Slenderizing" because the research I did says that Lithium actually causes the user to gain wait and not lose it. So I'm not sure what that's all about and probably never will, but find it strange to say the least.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's just one of numerous references that claim Lithium causes weight gain. You can conduct your own searches and find similar results ...

http://factually.gizmodo.com/7-up-used-to-contain-lithium-1634862072


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here I go outside the box again! 

Is it even remotely possible that the white background on the acl swimsuit label with the overhanging lip is a subtly hidden but giant ... 


*U*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Let me try the 'giant' part again ... 


U


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Better yet, let's try this one on for size ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And yes, they used a similar looking 'U' in early advertising as seen in the ad from *1932*. Its possible that Hamblett Grigg drew this ad!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to the drawing board ...


(My cutout 'U' is slightly out of line but I'm sure you get the general idea)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Oops!

I meant to show this side-by-side comparison  ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

If nothing else, my 'U' theory will at least account for the squared-off overhanging lip! Which might seem far fetched, but it might also be the best possibility so far. I still believe the squared-off lip was intentional and that the designer had something specific in mind when he incorporated into the label.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because I have run out of theories, this pretty much wraps things *up* for me. My main purpose for starting this thread was to draw attention to the white background on the 7up acl swimsuit girl label because, as far as I know, it has never been addressed before and I thought this might make for an interesting topic of discussion. If nothing else, it will hopefully provide a starting point for future researchers, not to mention the saying, "You can't always judge a book by its cover." Who knows if the white background was actually designed with a subliminal image or not? But if it was, then we have at least the following five possibilities to choose from ...

1.  A Champagne Glass?
2.  A Pharmaceutical Mortar?
3.  Charlie Chaplin's Bowler Hat/Derby?
4.  A Design influenced by Whistle and/or Howdy?
5.  None Of The Above And Just A Generic Design With No Specific Meaning Or Origin?   


Maybe one of these days we'll know for certain which of the five possibilities it actually is. In the meantime, I can't help but wonder.

Thanks to everyone for allowing my crazy out-of-the-box indulgence.


Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And my favorite one of all that's definitely outside the box ...

6.  A Large Letter 'U' from ...


7UP


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

After all ...

U Like It And It Likes U


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ...


1939


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## SODAPOPBOB

I promise, these are the last ones for the road! :deadhorse:

(I've been wanting to use the 'beating a dead horse' animation since the start and cannot think of a better time than now)


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## Canadacan

I have the whistle bottle.....here are the backs of two 1947's when they started listing ingredients, Lithium Citrate!


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## iggyworf

Thanx Bob for all the fun. One of these days I will get all (about 100) of my 7up bottles,1930's thru the 1980's all lined up for pics.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy/Rich

Thanks - It was fun for me, too. However, I ain't quite done just yet. I'm trying to make sense of something that has bugged me since the beginning of this thread. It involves exactly when Charles Leiper Grigg started working for Sylvester Jones, and specifically when Charles Grigg first developed Whistle Orange? The majority of accounts claim Whistle was first developed by Grigg in 1919 or 1920. But that ain't correct! Whistle Orange was already being produced and advertised as early as ...



The Evening Missourian ~ Columbia, Missouri ~ June 30, 1916 

(Check out the design of an orange half under a glass full of musical bubbles)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I realize the 1916 ad is talking about a soda fountain drink, but regardless of that, the 'Whistle' brand was available in 1916. So I'm wondering what all the hoopla is about regarding Grigg having developed it in 1919-1920?


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

Notice the 'whistling girl' on the lower part of the glass.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

There are dozens of Whistle ads from 1916, many of which show their bottle with a paper label. I don't have time to post those ads now but will later today.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...

I'm beginning to suspect that Whistle Orange wasn't developed/invented by Charles Grigg, but was developed/invented by Sylvester 'Vess' Jones prior to when Grigg started working for the Vess Company.


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> And here's the 1926 Whistle bottle patent by Sylvester "Vess" Jones ... plus a 1920s newspaper ad. I don't see an immediate connection to the Howdy and 7up designs, but it still needs some studying ...
> 
> View attachment 168383
> 
> View attachment 168384




Also Vess bottle, I think this was first and then the whistle version?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

It would be interesting to know the date of that green bottle and will see if I can find a patent for it - it appears to be 1920s.


I have read every history on Charles Leiper Grigg that I can find and discovered there is a lot of conflicting information. No one seems to know exactly when he started working for Vess Jones, although one unconfirmed account indicated it was in 1917. As I said previously, many of the accounts claim it was Grigg who invented 'Orange Whistle' in 1919 while employed at Vess Jones. I'm not certain 'who' invented Orange Whistle, and it could very well have been Grigg, but it definitely wasn't in 1919. The Orange Whistle Company was established in 1916 and there is ample evidence to support that date. By piecing together the histories the best I can, it appears that Charles Grigg worked as an advertising agent for Vess Jones for a couple of years and then left the company in 1919-1920 to develop his own brand of soda called 'Howdy.' We know what happened next in that he eventually went on to develop 7up.

This first link will confirm that the Orange Whistle Company was established in 1916 

https://goo.gl/XaPwti


This second link is one of few histories that appears to be one of the more accurate accounts regarding Charles Grigg's connection with Vess Jones. It leads me to believe that 'Whistle' was invented prior to when Grigg started working for the company. 

https://goo.gl/h45Jse


[Attachments]

1.  Snippet from first link - I added the red 1916

2.  Whistle Ad showing paper label bottle - The Hickory Daily Record - Hickory, North Carolina - June 21, 1916

     Note:  This same ad was featured in at least a dozen different newspapers from a dozen different states.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now for the 'Out Of The Box' part ...

If in fact Charles Grigg was an advertising agent for the Vess Company as early as 1916-17, is it even remotely possible that this 1916 ad design might have influenced this 1931 ad design? There are certain aspects about them that I find similar. For example ...

1.  The 'Tallness' of each ad - Tall Glass / Tall 7

2.  The Rising Bubbles

3.  The 'Whistling Girl' in the 1916 ad and the 'Slenderizing Lady' in the 1931 ad


[Attachments]

1. 1916
2. 1931


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## SODAPOPBOB

In other words ...

Could it be that the Whistling Girl 'morphed' into the Slenderizing Lady/Swimsuit Girl? And that it was Charles Leiper Grigg who was the mastermind of both?


----------



## iggyworf

That's a good case Bob. Similarities exist. 

Here is the link for that vess bottle. It's hard to read any numbers on the bottom from the person's pics. But it looks like 22 N? Wether that is the year I am not sure.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gre...319607?hash=item5b1e984537:g:BG0AAOSwFnFV-OGe

Mr Vess Jones seems to have quite a few bottle patents, All of them very similar.  I am sure you have seen these. Pretty cool site for bottle patents. Scroll down he has 3 rows of them.

http://www.bottlebooks.com/Designer Sodas/yet_more_1920_designer_sodas.htm


----------



## iggyworf

Here is the only other one on ebay. It lists the bottom code as 29 S 5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-191...225933?hash=item2c8d2ef54d:g:CFwAAMXQlgtStL8c


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## iggyworf

I miss the edit feature also.
The 2nd one lists the bottle as 1910, but I don't think that is accurate, Could it be?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I searched as many St. Louis directories as I could find and discovered that in ...

1914 
Vess Jones is listed as Vice President of the Orange Julep Company
Charles Grigg is listed as being in Advertising but doesn't say for who

1916
Vess Jones is listed as President of the Orange Whistle Company
Charles Grigg is listed as being in Advertising but doesn't say for who

I'm confident the Orange Whistle Company was established in *1916*

However, what I don't know (yet) is when Charles Grigg started working for Vess Jones - but I will continue to search and hopefully find the answer.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

I've seen the Vess patents you mentioned plus a few others - but they are all from the 1920s - I cannot find any from the teens


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## SODAPOPBOB

By the way / Just for the record 

Charles Leiper Grigg's parents were ...

Father:   Charles L. S. Grigg 
Mother:  Mary Elizabeth Leiper


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## SODAPOPBOB

Most of what I'm finding about Charles Grigg's early career are similar to this 1940 death notice where they say "after several years in the advertising business ..."  But I'm not sure if he worked for himself at that time or for somebody else. 

From ...

The Moberly Monitor - Moberly, Missouri - April 16, 1940


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## iggyworf

Bob check this out. The 7up slenderizing girl & the Lemon Up girl. Very similar don't ya think?

Lemon Up is from Grill's Beverage Co. Detroit Mi. Don't really know anything about them though.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Yeah, I posted a similar comparison earlier - but what's weird is, Lemon Up is apparently from the 1960s, so I really don't know what to make of it and haven't researched it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

It could be that the Seven-Up Company let the Slenderizing/Swimsuit copyright/trademark expire, or just discontinued it, and then Lemon Up nabbed it for their own use. ???


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah it was just an observation I made.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I have to believe Lemon Up had some kind of rights to the image, otherwise it seems it would have been a clear-cut case for copyright/trademark infringement.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm getting closer and believe this account for Charles Grigg is one of the most accurate. If so, then Charles Grigg moved to St. Louis in 1890. I found a *1908* St. Louis directory that list Charles as being employed by The Ely & Walker Company at that time, and appears to be one of several companies he worked for prior to working for Vess Jones. But I'm still not entirely convinced, as this article claims, that it was Charles Grigg who invented Orange Whistle. As we know, Orange Whistle was established in 1916, and there is no confirmation yet showing that Grigg worked for Vess Jones that early.  


http://www.gutenberg.us/articles/Charles_Leiper_Grigg


Charles Leiper Grigg was born in 1868 in Price's Branch, Missouri to Charles L.S. Grigg (1822-1883) and Mary Elizabeth Leiper Grigg (1839-1890). At the age of 22, Grigg moved to St. Louis and began working in the advertising field in which he was introduced to the carbonated beverage business through the various agencies he was partnered.

By 1919, Charles Leiper Grigg was working as a salesman for a manufacturing company owned by Vess Jones. It was there that Grigg invented and marketed his first soft drink called "Whistle". The success of the drink led to his promotion to the position of sales and marketing manager, however, eventually he and Voss came to loggerheads and Grigg left the company, leaving Whistle behind. He eventually settled at the Warner Jenkinson Company, developing flavoring agents for soft drinks.

It was at this time that Grigg invented then his second soft drink, an orange-flavored beverage with 14% sugar named "Howdy". He partnered with financier Edmund G. Ridgway and lawyer Frank Gladney and formed the Howdy Company. Based on the quality of the product and supported by Ridgway's financing, the company grew quickly, adding bottling companies anxious to sell the drink.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, here's the deal ... 

But before you study these 1916 St. Louis, Missouri directories, please be reminded that directory listings are sometimes carried over from the previous year, but not always. They are only carried over from previous years if the name and/or address are the same as that of the previous year. If the name and/or address are different, then the directory will list them accordingly. So with this said, please notice ...

1.  Grigg Charles L advt 2d fl 1127 Pine r 3880 Utah pl

Which translates ... Advertising - Second Floor - 1127 Pine - Residence - 3880 Utah Place


2.  Jones Vess pres Orange Whistle Co 307 N Main r 4360 Delmar boul

Which translates ... President Orange Whistle Company - 307 North Main - Residence - 4360 Delmar Boulevard 


Questions:

Why does this 1916 directory show different work addresses for Charles Grigg and Vess Jones if Charles Grigg worked for Vess Jones in 1916? And are we to assume that Charles Grigg did in fact work for Vess Jones at the time but worked at a different address? 

Answer:

Personally, I don't believe Charles Grigg worked for Vess Jones/Orange Whistle Company in 1916. 


[Cropped from directory pages - Entire pages to follow]


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## SODAPOPBOB

Both directory pages with the 1916 date at the top ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If I'm correct in that Charles Grigg did not work for Vess Jones/Orange Whistle Company in 1916, then how could Charles Grigg have invented/developed Orange Whistle in 1916?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And if I'm correct in that Charles Grigg did not work for Vess Jones/Orange Whistle Company in 1916, then why do so many historical accounts claim that he invented/developed Orange Whistle?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Orange Whistle, check out this newspaper article that talks about how the name supposedly originated. I'm not sure if its true, but its kind of cute no matter how you slice it. Especially considering its from 1919.

From ...

The Scranton Republic - Scranton, Pennsylvania - July 9, *1919*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Notice in the 1919 article where it says "three years ago" which refers to 1916


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is from the link I attached to my post #204


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

All things considered ...

I'm thinking Charles Grigg started working for Vess Jones in 1917 as an advertising executive and that Orange Whistle was invented prior to his employment by someone, possibly Vess Jones himself, who was already employed at the Orange Whistle Company in 1916. According to the copyright link I posted earlier, the Orange Whistle Company name was filed in January of 1916 and registered in March of 1916.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Last but not least ... 

Addresses from the 1916 St. Louis Directory


1916 - (Top of third column) - 1127 Pine Street - St. Louis Missouri - Nelson Chesman & Company

https://goo.gl/sK02VW






1916 - (Scroll to Whistle) - 307 North Main Street - St. Louis, Missouri - Orange Whistle Company

http://www.bottlebooks.com/carbonated beverages/carbonated_beverage_trademarks 1890-1919.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One clue leads to another ...

The information on this link will confirm that Charles L Grigg of St. Louis, Missouri worked for Nelson Chesman & Company in 1916


https://goo.gl/DqcWjN


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## SODAPOPBOB

Connecting the dots ...

If, as the trademark link indicates, the Whistle brand was filed on January 10, 1916 and registered on April 15, 1916, and Charles L Grigg was a delegate for Nelson Chesman & Company at the 'Third National Foreign Trade Convention' from January 27th through January 29th of 1916, then how would it have been possible for Charles Grigg to have invent Orange Whistle during that time?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Of the numerous accounts I have read regarding Charles Grigg's connection with Whistle, I currently like this one the best and suspect it might be the most accurate of them all. It claims that Charles Grigg started working for Whistle in *1918*

Read all about it ...

https://goo.gl/6tuquL


----------



## Canadacan

I love the article of how Whistle got it's name!...think that's really true?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

CC

I don't know if the name origin is true but it might be considering the article is from 1919 and mentions an "inventor from the South." 

Besides whistling, another common theme is bubbles. Many of the early Whistle ads depict bubbles and I can't help but wonder if this influenced the Grigg's advertising for 7up. I'm going to take a closer look at some of the Howdy Orange ads and see if bubbles were also a part of those advertising campaigns. 

This one is from ...

The Springfield Republican - Springfield, Missouri - April 18, 1917


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of bubbles ...

According to this ad it appears that Charles Grigg was steering away from bubbles when he developed Howdy Orange. Apparently Howdy was a non carbonated drink. Who knew? Not me!

From ...

The Hickory Daily Record - Hickory, North Carolina - June 30, 1922

I don't know if it was Charles Grigg or someone else who created this ad, but the wording at the top is as clumsy as it gets.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I said it before and I'll say it again, I'm glad I subtitled this thread 'Outside The Box' because this time I'm going so far outside the box that I might never find my way back! But that's okay because I just find this stuff and let the chips fall where they may. With that said, I just gotta ask ...

Is it even remotely possible that this Howdy cloth cap influenced the design on the acl swimsuit label? 

Who knows, maybe when Hamblett Grigg was a kid he used to run around wearing one of these caps and then years later either he and/or his father thought it would be cool to incorporate the image into their label design as a subliminal way of connecting with the past. However, one of the main problems with this theory is that Hamblett Grigg was 16 years old in 1922. But who knows, maybe he was a late bloomer. Better yet, maybe it had nothing to do with someone actually 'wearing' the cap, but rather with it just being a reminder of the past.      

Ad from ...

The New Haven Leader - New Haven, Missouri - May 25, 1922


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

In Search of ...

A picture of an actual Howdy cloth cap. I took a quick look around but haven't been able to find one, yet.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't been able to find a Howdy beanie cap, but I did find one of these cloth visors ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm working on a timeline but otherwise have run out of theories as to what might have influenced the design on the  7up acl swimsuit label - especially regarding the background portion of the label that is white, curves inward like a bowl, and has a squared-off overhang. Until something presents itself to refute it, I will continue to believe that whoever designed it, which could very well have been Charles Grigg's son, Hamblett Grigg, had something specific in mind and was replicating something when he incorporated the white background into the label. But just exactly what that 'something' might have been, I cannot say for certain. Were it not for the squared-off overhang, I likely would not have started this discussion. I just happened to zero in on the squared-overhang one day and I couldn't help but wonder why that had been done and not just round it off without the overhang? We may never know the answer, if there even is one, but I will continue to wonder with the hope that someday, someone will be able to enlighten us. 

As to whether or not Charles Leiper Grigg developed the soft drink "Whistle" or if it was someone else such as Vess Jones, that too remains a bit of a mystery. Despite the numerous accounts both past and present that claim Charles L Grigg did develop Whistle, some of the information I posted conflicts with those claims, especially when it comes to certain dates and addresses involving his employment at the time. At present I'm going with the account I posted recently where the author claimed that Charles Grigg started working for Vess Jones in 1918. And this is not because it fits with my personal opinion, but because the author included certain details you rarely read about, and it appears he really did his homework and had access to some rather specific information. But exactly where the author got that information is a bit of a mystery unto itself, especially when you take into account that no one else, including myself, seems to have uncovered similar information. 

Take for example this newspaper article from 1921. Even it claims that Charles Leiper Grigg was the originator of Whistle. And if this was being said as early as 1921, then who am I to refute it? And yet, I still have serious doubts that it was in fact Charles Grigg who developed Whistle. Perhaps only with time and additional research will we ever know for certain.

By the way, the Hamblett Grigg mentioned in the article is Charles Grigg's brother and not his son. You may recall from earlier where I said there were two family members named Hamblett. As for the article referring to Charles as "Leiper," this is the only account I have seen that refers to him by that name. As far as I know he went by the name of Charles and/or C.L. 

The newspaper article appeared in the social event section and is from ... 

The Santa Ana Register - Santa Ana, California - December 3, 1921


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brief Follow-up / Charles L Grigg employment ...

Both of these links are to 1916 publications and say that Charles Grigg resigned from Nelson Chesman & Company in 1916 and went to work as an advertising and sales manager for the Copper Clad Range Company at that time. I have seen similar references that say Charles Grigg was with Nelson Chesman & Comapany as early as 1911. If this information is correct, as I'm sure it is, then how could he possibly have been working for Vess Jones at the same time and developed Whistle, which we know was trademarked in early 1916? 

If the link opens on separated pages, just click on the blue-heighted page number to see the individual pages in their entirety ...

 1916

https://goo.gl/Re78Vo

https://goo.gl/84FDBS


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And what about this publication from February 2, *1918* that list numerous companies Charles Grigg worked for but no mention of Vess Jones? 

https://goo.gl/AxCs1Y


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

More and more its starting to look as if Charles Grigg did not go to work for Vess Jones until sometime in 1918 at the earliest!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's one of the timelines I'm working on. This particular one is for Charles Grigg's employment history between 1906 and 1918. I still can't find a confirmation as to exactly when he started working for Vess Jones/Whistle Company, but it must have been sometime after January 3, 1918, which is the date of the 1918 'Printers Ink' article.  


1906 - Ely-Walker Dry Goods (No Link - Found in a 1906 Newspaper)



1908 - Rice-Stix Dry Goods Co.

https://goo.gl/uzPEuB



1913 - Shapleigh Hardware

https://goo.gl/qEX4Ne



1916 - Copper Clad Range Co.

https://goo.gl/MSXQRM



1918 - Fisher-Ruebel-Brown Advertising Agency

https://goo.gl/QwepUx


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Need I ask again ...

Because Whistle is clearly do***ented as having been established in 1916, then exactly when and how does Charles Grigg fit into the scheme of things? And why do about 90% of the accounts say he "Invented / Developed" Orange Whistle in 1916? 

New Question(s): 

Is it possible he was working for someone like the Copper Clad Range Company but at the same time invented a soft drink for a different company? If so, then why don't the historical accounts say as much? 

Something doesn't make sense he, but I'm not sure if its me or something else.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The earliest *confirmed* date I can find showing that Charles Grigg worked for the Whistle Company is from this 1920 Census. To be more specific, the Census was conducted on *January 9, 1920*. So unless he started working there the first week of the year, it is safe to assume that he was working there in late 1919 as well. But I just cannot find a confirmed date earlier than this.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm reposting this page regarding the 1916 St. Louis Directory because I recently discovered that the *1127 Pine Street* address was the location of *Nelson Chesman & Company*. You can do a simple Google search by typing in the address and find similar results. In a way this is confirmation that Charles Grigg worked for Nelson Chesman & Company in 1916.  




SODAPOPBOB said:


> Okay, here's the deal ...
> 
> But before you study these 1916 St. Louis, Missouri directories, please be reminded that directory listings are sometimes carried over from the previous year, but not always. They are only carried over from previous years if the name and/or address are the same as that of the previous year. If the name and/or address are different, then the directory will list them accordingly. So with this said, please notice ...
> 
> 1.  Grigg Charles L advt 2d fl 1127 Pine r 3880 Utah pl
> 
> Which translates ... Advertising - Second Floor - 1127 Pine - Residence - 3880 Utah Place
> 
> 
> 2.  Jones Vess pres Orange Whistle Co 307 N Main r 4360 Delmar boul
> 
> Which translates ... President Orange Whistle Company - 307 North Main - Residence - 4360 Delmar Boulevard
> 
> 
> Questions:
> 
> Why does this 1916 directory show different work addresses for Charles Grigg and Vess Jones if Charles Grigg worked for Vess Jones in 1916? And are we to assume that Charles Grigg did in fact work for Vess Jones at the time but worked at a different address?
> 
> Answer:
> 
> Personally, I don't believe Charles Grigg worked for Vess Jones/Orange Whistle Company in 1916.
> 
> 
> [Cropped from directory pages - Entire pages to follow]
> 
> 
> View attachment 168455
> 
> 
> View attachment 168456


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If, as about 99% of the accounts claim, Charles Leiper Grigg invented and developed Whistle in 1916, then I strongly believe it was accomplished while he was working for someone else and not for Vess Jones. There is no question that Charles Grigg was an established advertising agent, and perhaps it was in that capacity that he somehow assisted Vess Jones with the development of Whistle, but it seems highly unlikely to me that Charles Grigg actually 'invented' Whistle. I believe that honor goes to none other than Sylvester "Vess" Jones.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Maybe I'm crazy but I just don't see the connection between Charles Grigg and Whistle when you take into account that Grigg was working for Nelson Chesman & Company and giving lectures at the same time that Orange Whistle was being filed as a trademark.  

Whistle Trademark Link - Filed January 10, 1916 -  https://goo.gl/TB5sdI

[Attachments]

1.  Orange Whistle snippet from 1916 link
2.  Newspaper Date Heading - January 24, 1916
3.  Newspaper Article - The Alton Evening Telegraph - Alton, Illinois - January 24, 1916

Note: In the newspaper article they misspelled Chesman - The blurred word near the bottom is 'recognized'


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Who the heck was Nelson Chesman & Company, anyway? And did they have some kind of direct connection with the Orange Whistle Company? I don't know either, but I intend to find out!

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

There doesn't appear to be a direct connection between Nelson Chesman & Company and the Orange Whistle Company, but I did discover that Charles Grigg was with Nelson Chesman & Company as early as 1911 and as late as 1918 when he resigned and went to work for the Fisher-Rubel-Brown Advertising Agency in St. Louis, Missouri. So if Charles Grigg had anything to do with the Orange Whistle Company during this timespan, then it was while he was working for Nelson Chesman & Company as an advertising agent.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm not sure this will shed any light on things, but according to this 1918 newspaper article, during the first two years of the Whistle Company they only supplied syrup to "bottling concerns" but did not do any actual bottling of their own. Maybe it was during this time period that Charles Grigg joined the company and helped 'develop' an advertising campaign that brought the brand into the national spotlight, thus giving Charles Grigg the credit that is so often referred to in numerous accounts. ???

From ...

The St. Louis Dispatch - St. Louis, Missouri - September 15, 1918

(In Three Cropped Portions)(The mention of sugar rationing involved WWI)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of the numerous accounts about Charles L Grigg, about 99.99% of them say that Grigg and Vess Jones had a "*falling out*" in 1919 that resulted in Grigg leaving the Whistle Company and soon after developed his own brand of orange drink called Howdy. I have yet to see an explanation as to exactly what caused that so called "falling out," but I can't help but wonder if it had something to do with Orange Whistle, with Grigg possibly claiming he had invented it, but in fact it was Vess Jones who had invented it in 1916, thus causing Charles Grigg to pack his bags and resign? I also can't help but wonder if Howdy Orange was actually a variation of Whistle Orange that Grigg took with him and reformulated and patented in his own name, which in turn infuriated Vess Jones even more? Hmmm. I wonder.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For Clarification ...

1  According to the January 9, 1920 U.S. Census I posted earlier, Charles L Grigg's listed occupation at the time was as the "Advertising Manager" for the "Whistle Company." 

2. According to U.S. Patent/Trademark records, "Howdy Orange" was filed for on March 24, 1920 and officially registered on October 26, 1920. 

So it appears that whatever happened between Charles Grigg, the Whistle Company, and Vess Jones, it occurred in the brief timespan of only two months between January 9, 1920 and March 24, 1920. To me, that doesn't seem like enough time for Charles Grigg to have developed a totally new brand of orange soda, not to mention filing it as a trademark in his name in just a few short weeks from the time he left the Whistle Company. Hmmm, do I smell a rat!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

This is from a 2004 Cecil Munsey article and is the earliest Howdy advertisement I am aware of. The earliest I can find in the newspaper archives is August of 1921


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Uh, oh ... Here I go outside the box again!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Sorry ... I can't help myself!


----------



## Canadacan

Found this today


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

CC

I saw hints to the possibility that Howdy was still being made, but never looked into it until now. This link is to a company in Texas that sells it. Except that Howdy was originally an orange flavor and the current one appears to only be available as a lemon lime. 

http://texaslegacybrands.com/vintage-soda-pop/howdy-040110.html


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## SODAPOPBOB

When I first presented the 'juicer' theory I did it with a wink and a nod. But after looking into it I discovered these Depression era juicers with measuring cups were quite common and came in a variety of colors. What I find most interesting is that the majority of them have a flat handle on the juicing part. Not to mention they are time period correct from the 1920s-30s. I still believe that whoever designed the 7up acl swimsuit label had something specific in mind when they included the squared-off overhanging part. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would include it merely as a nondescript design feature. So I'm taking back the wink and a not and presenting this as a legitimate possibility.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

After all ...

What would make more sense with a lemon and lime drink than to incorporate a lemon and lime *juicer* into the label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The juicing cups even came in a 7up green color! Hmmm, I wonder.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to Mr. Grigg for a moment.

Notice in this link that I posted earlier where it says ...

"*,whether all of Mr. Griss's illustrations are well drawn,*"

This is the first and only reference I have seen that mentions anything about Charles Grigg's artistic, drawing abilities. But I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise that an accomplished advertising agent would also have some measure of artistic talent. Which suggest it might not have been only the son, Hamblett Grigg, who was involved with label designs - it could just as easily have been ole' Charles Grigg himself who designed various things for his various enterprises, including those for 7up. 

1913 - Shapleigh Hardware

https://goo.gl/qEX4Ne


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Obvious Typo ...

I meant Grigg's and not Griss's  

(Hey, Mr. Administration - Howz about reactivating the 5-minute edit feature - We miss it - Thanks)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Surely you saw this one coming! How could I resist?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I know, I know ... :deadhorse: ... and I promise this is the last one! I just want to make sure I convey this to the max.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Except, I forgot these comparisons - which I would have been able to correct initially if there was a dang edit option!


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## jblaylock

I like the juicer theory, makes sense


Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm currently focusing my attention on Hamblett Grigg and trying to determine if it was him, his father Charles Grigg, or possibly both who designed the acl swimsuit label. Notice in this link  https://goo.gl/L7SuD7 where it says ...

"The company founder's son, H. C. Grigg, created this trademark design, among others." 

I wonder where the author got that information because I have been looking for similar references and this is the only one I have seen that says it was Hamblett Grigg who designed the label?

Plus there's this from several publications titled "Who's Who" (In Missouri - In Advertising - Etc), with this particular snippet being from a 1959 publication. The other dates I've seen for these publications, with almost identical information, are from 1949-1951-1957 

Although not shown in this particular snippet, the full text pertaining to Hamblett Grigg's employment history is as follows ...

Hamblett Grigg Reminders ...

He graduated from Cleveland High School in 1923 
He joined the Howdy Company in 1929 
His father Charles Grigg died in 1940


1924-26 Commercial Artist
1927-28 "to advertising sign business"
1929-1935 Salesman Seven Up Company
1935-39 Seven Up Advertising Manager 
1939-1940 Seven Up General Manager  

[1959 "Who's Who"]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

jblaylock said:


> I like the juicer theory, makes sense




Josh:

Thanks - that makes two of us! Actually, I contacted Bill Lockhart about the juicer theory and he said "Interesting idea" plus a few other comments.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I also found this from another forum and am currently trying to find anything I can regarding the poster. Because it refers to "bottle caps" it sure sounds like 7up was being bottled at the time. The closest thing I have found that might be related to this is the 1928 "Crown" magazine page I posted earlier - except it doesn't have 7up in all four corners that is mentioned in the forum text. 

[Text from 2010 Forum]

Jerry L. Mathis September 9, 2010

I have been collector of Coca Cola and Dr. Pepper memorabilia for over 35 years. I became a serious collector of 7-Up memorabilia 25 years ago. I have not done a lot of research on the history of 7-Up. My understanding is that Mr. Grigg started as The Howdy Co. In St. Louis, Mo., with Howdy Orange. He then developed Howdy’s Lithiated Lemon-Lime in the mid 1920’s. He then changed the name in the early 1930’s to 7-Up. However, 10 years ago I was at the C-C collectors club annual convention looking for paper items to buy. I walked into a room that had many paper items to sell. I suddenly noticed an orange envelop. It had a black circle in the upper left corner with a black 7-Up inside of it. There was an orange piece of paper folded up inside of the envelope. I opened the paper and it was a poster for a contest. It said save so many 7-Up bottle caps and get a model airplane. The poster had the black circle with the 7-Up in all four corners. I then looked at the postmark on the envelope. It was postmarked July 1929. I believe this envelope is evidence that 7-Up was developed and sold before October 1929 as listed in all of the history articles I have seen. 

[Attachment - Page from 1928 Crown magazine]


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Bill Lockhart ...

I have never met him but have exchanged numerous emails with him over the years. As you know, he has a long history as one of the foremost bottle researchers in the country and along with Bill Lindsey in Oregon, Carol Serr in San Diego, and others, formed the Bottle Research Group, or as they refer to it, the BRG. Anyway, this email I received from Bill Lockhart on December 26, 2015 may interest some of you ... with "we" meaning Bill and his wife.

Hi Bob,

I hope your Christmas was good also. We spent most of the day at home (in our RV) but visited a local bottle collector in the morning. We have retired (at long last) and are living on the road. We are currently in El Paso, Texas, and will be heading east as soon as the snow quits. Life is good.

Bill


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## SODAPOPBOB

I doubt I can get much farther outside the box than this. I just hope it post properly because I won't be able to edit it!

Please bear with me as this is just one of countless scenarios that could have occurred during the development of the 7up acl swimsuit label. In this one I am going with the notion that it was Hamblett Grigg who created the label, who then submitted it to his father, Charles Grigg, for approval. I'm presenting it in the form of a conversation that might have taken place between Hamblett and his father sometime in 1935. 

Hamblett:  "Hey, dad, did you get a chance yet to look over the new label design I put on your desk?"

Charles:  "Not yet, but I will after lunch."

Hamblett:  "Okay, great. I'll check back with you later." 


When Charles returns from lunch he picks up the folder containing the new label design and begins to examine it. Because he's slightly confused about some of the details, he calls for Hamblett to join him in his office. 

(Shortly after Hamblett arrives ...

Charles:  "I like what you came up with for the new label as it incorporates everything we have been discussing. However, I'm a little confused as to what you did here with the lower background?"  

(Charles points to the white part with the squared-off overhanging lip ...

Hamblett:  "Yeah, I thought you might like that part."

Charles:  "I haven't decided if I like it or not - what I want to know is, what is it supposed to be?"

Hamblett:  "Do you remember the fruit juicer that mom used almost every morning until you took it to your laboratory to squeeze some lemons and limes? You, know, the one that came with a measuring cup." 

Charles:  "Yes, I remember it. What about it?" 

Hamblett:  "Well, that's mom's juice squeezer right on the label." 

( Hamblett points to the label drawing ...

Hamblett:  "See this part where it sticks out? That's the square handle on top of the juicer, and the rounded part is the measuring cup." 

Charles:  "Well, I'll be darned. I see it now! But before you pointed it out I had no idea what it might be. But why put it on the new label?" 

Hamblett:  "Because, it represents the lemon and lime juice that's in Seven Up. Plus, its my way of including Mom into the new label. Do you think she will be excited when she sees what I've done?" 

Charles:  "Yes, she will be more than excited. But I gotta say, if you hadn't of pointed it out to me, I probably would never have figured it out on my own." 

Hamblett:  "That's the beauty of it, Dad. It will be a family secret that only you, Mom, and myself will ever know about." 

Charles:  "I gotta hand it to you, Ham, you're quite the creative genius."


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## jblaylock

Love it

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## SODAPOPBOB

This hand drawn illustration isn't perfect but it is true to scale within about 1/8" inch. Of course I don't how the scale will look once its posted, but regardless of that it should demonstrate how the label would look if the slant at the top and the curve at the bottom continued along their natural courses until they join at the top-right where I placed the red X. For the slanted part I used a ruler, and for the curved part I used a drafting compass. However, because I do not know exactly what the designer had in mind when he conceived the label, the shape outside the 7up box could have gone in any number of directions such as that of an hourglass. So this is merely a demonstration to give us some idea what the overall design might look like if it was extended beyond the known parameters. I'm still studying it myself and have not drawn any conclusive ideas yet, but still leaning toward my juicer theory. I'm including the image of an hourglass to help illustrate what I was saying about the lines possibly going in any number of directions.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

If you have a swimsuit label 7up bottle, look closely at the curved part and you will notice that it follows the lines of a true circle which, if continued, would make a circle with a 5" inch diameter.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding the 1928 7up bicycle contest poster that Jerry L. Mathis spoke about in 2010, the earliest contest of that sort I could find is from 1937. And while you're contemplating that, also contemplate the attached article from 1928 about a pool and/or billiard contest called 7 UP. I did a little research on the subject and discovered there was a pool game called Seven Ball, but I couldn't find much in the way of a pool game called 7 UP. However, I'm still looking and eventually might find something. So I guess the next questions should be ...

1.  Was 7 UP a popular pool game in the 1930s or was it just a random thing?
2.  Were Charles Grigg and/or Hamblett Grigg pool players. 
3.  Was Charles Grigg aware of the 7 UP pool game when he came up with a name for his soft drink in 1929-1930?

Note: I don't intend to go into the name origin as that has already been discussed at length in previous threads. 

[Newspaper Attachments] 

1.  The Valley Morning Star ~ Harlington, Texas ~ December 19, 1937
2.  The Indiana Gazette ~ Indiana, Pennsylvania ~ May 8, 1928 (Heading)
3.  The Indiana Gazette ~ Indiana, Pennsylvania ~ May 8, 1928 (Article)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the link to the 7up name origin discussion for those who are interested in reading it. It was started by member ACLbottles on July 30, 2014


https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?657537-Another-8-bubble-7up&highlight=branding+iron


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## iggyworf

Great job Bob recreating a possible conversation between them.


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## anj2006

My friend, i think you should write a book!!!( OR FIVE)!!!!!!!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Breaking News!

I have been collecting and researching soda bottles for 40 years and have looked at literally hundreds of 7up ads and articles, and this is the first and only one I have ever seen that says 7up was test marketed in *1928*. I especially like these early articles because the individuals involved probably knew Charles Grigg personally and their information likely came straight from the horses mouth. 

From ...

The Evening News ~ Harrisburg, Pennsylvania ~ October 4, *1944*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

100% of the historical accounts say that 7up was "introduced in October of 1929."


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## SODAPOPBOB

anj2006 said:


> My friend, i think you should write a book!!!( OR FIVE)!!!!!!!!!



anj

Thanks 

Actually, I am writing a book. But not about soda bottles. Its a history of the small town in southern California where I grew up. And even though I know its history from day one and remember a lot of the old folks who were still alive when I was a kid, I'm having difficulty finding original pictures that are essential to the book. But I keep looking and hopefully one of these days will find enough pictures to make the endeavor worthwhile.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

anj

*If* I ever do compile a book about soda pop related topics, it would be devoted entirely to old newspaper advertisements and articles. I have dozens if not hundreds of them on file and could easily acquire many, many more. As far as I know there has never been a book of nature ever published. I actually looked into this a couple of years ago but became discouraged because of process involved to get permission to use copyrighted material. Its one thing to post images of articles on a forum such as this one, but another thing entirely to publish to same articles in a book intended for profit. Some newspapers want you to pay for permission, while others will let you do it for free, but require that you submit a separate request form for every individual advertisement or article. The long story short of it is, I'm 64 years old and just don't have the time and energy to jump through all of the hoops required to publish such a book. That's why I don't mind mentioning it here and encourage anyone who has what it takes to publish such a book to go for it because the odds of me ever doing it are slim to none. I believe that such a book would sell well and be a valuable resource for soda collectors now and for generations to come.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. - P.S.

Just a few more comments about old newspaper advertisements and articles ...

Its highly possible the article I just posted about 7up being test marked in 1928 is the first time that article has surfaced since it was first published in 1944. I have searched and continue to search for articles of that nature, but because there are no less than about 1,000,000 listings of various types for 7up, finding specific information like that is like searching for a needle in a haystack. Searching for specific information is all in how the search is worded. For example, my current searches use the wording "New 7up." (In the hope of finding a single reference for the introduction of the new acl 7up bottle) And that word search alone pulls up about 100,000 results. Not to mention other wordings such as, New 7up Bottle, 7up Bottle, 7up Label, just to mention a few that often pull up results separate from the other wordings. The weird part is, you'd think that the 7up Company would have made a big deal about the introduction of their new acl bottle, but apparently they didn't because so far I haven't been able to find a single listing to that effect. Another weird thing is, they continued to refer to their product as "New" until as late as the mid 1940s, and by that time their acl swimsuit bottle had been in production for at least ten years. So as you can see, a book with all of this stuff readily available at your fingertips would serve as a valuable resource. That way no one would have spend days, weeks, and even months just to find one little ol' reference about 7up's new acl bottle. 

(So much for my "few" more words - )


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## anj2006

Awesome sodapopbob, awesome!!!  You are a wealth of info, i understand it was acquired through years of research,  but with out ones dedication  and commitment pertaining to a individual topic it would not be done in the first place!!! Just because your 64 years old,  ,  dont mean shit!!! I think you could write the book or books pertaining to your passion there. There is a such thing as an umbrella permission,  i dont think there is as many hoops as you think! And your right, to have that type of information in an ac***ulated form would be great!!! Now my friend its up to you to give it to us!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I forgot to mention that the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to allows me to narrow my searches down by years and even specific months and days of a particular year, but even with the narrowing down I have yet to find a single listing about 7up's new acl bottle that we all know was introduced in 1935. But I ain't giving up just yet because I know somewhere among the thousands of 7up listings there has to be at least one that talks about their "new" acl swimsuit bottle, and possibly even tell us the who, what, where, and why's about it.


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## anj2006

Whats the small town??


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## SODAPOPBOB

anj

Thanks for the kudos - maybe, maybe, maybe someday?

Bob


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## anj2006

Your welcome !!!


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## SODAPOPBOB

anj2006 said:


> Whats the small town??




Lake Morena Village - which came into existence during the construction of a San Diego County reservoir dam in 1896-97 but was not completed until 1912. The lake itself is called Lake Morena and the water is owned by the city of San Diego but the land is owned by San Diego County. At the time of the dam's completion in 1912 it was proclaimed the largest rock-filled dam in the "world." I remember a Mrs. Kunze when I was a kid who used to own almost all of the vacant land around the lake that has been subdivided and is now filled with homes where my three brothers and I used to go deer and quail hunting. How times have changed!


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## iggyworf

I would definantly  buy that book. It would be great if you Bob could write it, but I understand some of the big hurdles. But keep us posted about the book you are writing. Look forward to it. I try like hell to offer insight on this 7up mystery, but my search skills are on the lower end. I love 7up bottles, old and new. Never intended to collect them, Just Pepsi & Mnt Dew, but it just happened. Now I have just over 100 7up bottles & other related items.


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## anj2006

Understand completely  how times change!! Where me and my father used to hunt is now a prison for troubled youth, and the suroundind land. Everthing changes if it didnt we would not have the hobby we love so much today.. well dont want to interuped the thread anymore then i already have, later... ditch!


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## SODAPOPBOB

For reasons unknown I just can't find a newspaper article or any other reference from the 1930s announcing the introduction of 7up's acl swimsuit bottle. It just appears out of nowhere with no fanfare or special mention. The closest thing I have found are the two attached ads that say ...

"The only drink that's just as good as 7-Up is in a 7-Up bottle like the one pictured here - and it's waiting for you now at good dealers everywhere."

Based on what I've been seeing, a lot of 7up bottlers continued using paper labels and the transition to acl painted label bottles wasn't complete until about 1939-1940. This in itself is not surprising because it took time for a lot of different brands to make the same transition. But you'd think there would have been some type of official announcement when 7up introduced their new bottle, and there could very well have been an announcement of some type, but if one exist, I can't just can't find it.

Notice at the bottom of both ads where it says ... "Copyright 1938, K. S. & Z, Inc." ... I did a quick search but have no idea who that was or exactly which part of the ad it pertains to. Also notice the ads are from different towns but the same state, and both were published in August of 1938. I do not know if this was part of a local or national campaign. I only know that the key words are "now" and "everywhere." 

I will probably never know but will always wonder if Hamblett Grigg did the artwork?

Ads From ...

1.  The Dixon Evening Telegraph - Dixon, Illinois - August 4, 1938

2.  The Pantagraph - Bloomington, Illinois - August 31, 1938


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## anj2006

Somethings drives us nuts, dont they? It has to be out there somewhere doesn't it??? You would think with the size of the company, and the time it was in ephemra was huge  .that was the way to advertise.  And with a new label they would want the people to no!


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## anj2006

I have alot of  boxes of old newspapers from the 20's up till the 50's.  You have me wanting to look! Let me see if i can locate anything for ya.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found this mystery bottle that has captured my attention. It appears to have a paper label like that of the earlier bottles but also has some features like those on the later acl bottles. Notice its curved on the left but has some additional features above the curved part. Its those additional features that I find most interesting of all. I wonder if those features are a continuation of the curved part or just light-beams like those on the paper label? And if a continuation of the curved part, does it tell us what the curved part might actually be? I found several of these mystery bottles, but this is the best one that shows the details. I haven't completed my search yet to see exactly how widespread the use was, but the examples I have seen so far are from 1937 and 1938. Compare it with the other labels and see what you make of it. 

1. Typical Paper Label
2. Mystery Bottle
3. ACL Bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Just because the mystery bottle appears in 1937 and 1938 newspapers doesn't necessarily mean its specifically from those years. It could be a stock image from an earlier time period.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm not sure this cropped enlargement of the mystery label will help, but I thought I'd post it anyway. For some unknown reason, every image I'm finding of this label are blurred. I enhanced this particular image the best I could ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Talk about "Outside The Box" ...

I'm thinking that whatever the curved part with the squared-off lip on the acl label might have been intended to replicate is right there in front of our eyes on the mystery label, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it might be! HELP!!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a newspaper print image of a standard paper label that's also from 1938. Compare it to the mystery label and you will notice the obvious differences ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's one of the ads where I found the mystery label ...

From ...

The Ironwood Daily Globe ~ Ironwood, Michigan ~ May 19, 1938


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

7up *New* Label - 1940


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

The new label the ad refers to pertains to adding the ingredients on the label that earlier labels, including the first acls, did not have. I have seen several ads like that one, but if they made a big deal about adding the ingredients info, you'd think they would have done something similar when the acl label was first introduced in 1935. But, like I said earlier, if they did advertise it, I can't find a single reference saying as much!


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> I'm not sure this cropped enlargement of the mystery label will help, but I thought I'd post it anyway. For some unknown reason, every image I'm finding of this label are blurred. I enhanced this particular image the best I could ...
> 
> View attachment 168659



This still resembles a champagne glass to me somewhat.


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:


> And now for the crazy part!
> 
> 
> Is it even remotely possible that the white portion of the label was intended to represent this ...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 167931



But didn't we determine that we could not find any champagne glasses with squared off edges?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One of the most often used words in early 7up advertising is ...

"*Mixer*"

... as in "Cocktail Mixer." So I'm going to run with that for a while as a possible clue and see where it takes me, if anywhere.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Vintage cocktail mixing glasses usually came with a *long-handled spoon for stirring.*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One clue leads to another ...


Such as these *ice buckets* from *1935* ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

More 1930s Ice Buckets ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The real deal vs. the advertised deal ... 1935 ... ?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Surely you saw this coming ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Let's take a close look at the ACL LABEL again but this time think of it as an ice bucket ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And then consider this ...


----------



## M.C.Glass

I think it's meant to represent a water dipper like they used back when the label was designed, to get a cool, refreshing drink from a bucket.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

MCglass

Interesting suggestion and a possibility. Vintage water dippers / ladles were also designed with a *rounded* cup that had a lip like the one pictured here ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Back to the so called 'mystery' label ...

I found a better image of the mystery label (which I will attach in the next post) but it still has some features about that are puzzling. But first, let's examine these paper labels that came in several variations, which are ... 

Note:  I'm not sure what to call the slanted 'light-beams' across the top but for simplicity sake I will just call them 'Lines.'

Note:  Notice the one common denominator is the image of the Slenderizing lady.

1. Two Lines with 'Highly Carbonated." Has Slenderizing lady but not the word 'Slenderizing.' I believe this is the earliest paper label because it has '1935 Howdy Co.' on it.

2. Two Lines but with different wording. Has Slenderizing lady but not the word 'Slenderizing."

3. Two Lines with Slenderizing lady, plus the word 'Slenderizing.'

4. Three Lines with Slenderizing lady, plus the word 'Slenderizing.'


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

I forgot to mention that the last set of labels also have 'Lithiated Lemon Soda' on them, whereas the others don't. 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the better image I found of the mystery paper label from a 1936 newspaper. Compare it to the various paper labels I just posted, but notice that it ...

1.  Has the Slenderizing lady - blurred but there.

2.  Does not have the word 'Slenderizing.'

3.  Has what appear to be three lines but are different than those on the actual paper labels. 

4.  The 7up logo is centered differently - with the three lines in the upper-right being broken and not continuous.

5.  There is a white background above the three lines on the left-side that the actual paper labels do not have.

6.  There is what appears to be a white background behind the Slenderizing lady.

7.  The larger white background appears to be curved/rounded on the left side. 

I realize the mystery labels are images from newspaper ads, and could be an optical illusion, but the centering of the 7up logo on the mystery label is clearly different than it is on the actual labels. This difference in centering is the most puzzling clue of all. 

Question:

If the newspaper images are of an actual label, is it possible they were some type of transition label between the older paper labels and the newer acl labels? (I'm not sure, either, but I can't help but wonder).


[From a *1936* newspaper]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I forgot to mention that even the 'Lines' on the mystery label appear to be curved. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. - P.S.

If the curvature is an optical illusion caused by the curve of the bottle, then why do outlines on the top and bottom of the label itself appear to be perfectly horizontal?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ...

Notice there is no 'squared-off lip' on the mystery label. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If these newspaper images of the mystery label are not actual labels, then why do they emphasize the label like they do in this ad where it says ...

"They don't let you see the bottle and label."

Surely they wouldn't publish the image of an unrecognizable label. ???

From ...

The Belvidere Daily Republican - Belvidere, Illinois - September 25, *1936*

( I obviously don't know why the ad is scribbled on, but it appears to be a 7 )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next up will be images from newspaper ads that show 7up paper labels that are different than our so called mystery label. That way we can make some comparisons and see if the mystery labels are optical illusions or not. But I still have some more searching and sorting to do, and probably won't get back to this until this evening or tomorrow. Besides, I have a poker game I'm going to today and if you're a poker player, then you know that comes first before anything else!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Even though 7up was first test marketed in 1928 and introduced to the general public in October of 1929, the absolute earliest mention of 7up I can find in the newspaper archives is 1931. However, that particular ad is of the Tall-7-Slenderizing-Lady I posted earlier and does not include a picture of a bottle. The earliest ad I can find that includes a picture of a bottle is the one attached here from 1933. I will be posting additional ads with pictures of bottles as I find them, but wanted to start with this one first. It isn't the greatest image but its clear enough to show us that it appears to be a typical paper label with the slenderizing lady on the left. We'll discuss and compare the details of the label later. But for now please notice the two glasses, one of which has carbonation bubbles escaping from it ...

Ad from ... 

The Rolla Herald - Rolla, Missouri - December 21, *1933*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought this might be a good time for a little refresher course about the evolution of the 7up bottle from Bill Lockhart's article, with emphasis on how the paper labels appear in the two *photographs* of the bottle. The reason I highlighted the word 'photographs' is to point out that actual photographs of paper label bottles don't portrait the white background as being dramatically curved like it does on the so called mystery labels. I'm fairly confident now that the mystery labels are artist renderings and not actual photographs, and that the artist took liberties by curving the white background on the label when in fact it was vertically straight and not curved. (More about this later).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

I'm currently searching for an actual newspaper *photograph* of a paper label 7up bottle that's not an artist rendering. That way we should know with relative certainty what a photograph looks like compared to an artist interpretation. I haven't found a paper label bottle photograph yet but will return if/when I do.


----------



## anj2006

I would lean more towards the when i do!! Lol..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Well, that didn't take as long as I thought. I forgot I had this in my files from a 1935 ad that I'm confident is an actual photograph and not an artist rendering. Notice the white background on the two 7up paper label bottles does not appear to be curved like it does with artist renderings ...

From ...

The Salt Lake Tribune - Salt Lake City, Utah - April 28, *1935*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In case anyone is thinking my wild-goose-chase about the mystery slenderizing paper label bottle was an exercise in futility, please consider this mystery label that I cannot explain and cannot find an actual example of. And if it wasn't an actual label, then why do they say ... 

"7-Up is in green bottles *labeled for proper identity*"

Surely they wouldn't have made such a specific statement about an unrecognizable label. Especially considering these ads are from two different years and two different states. I acknowledge these are artist renderings, but they suggest an actual label that I simply cannot find a real-life example of! 

1.  The Plain Speaker - Hazelton, Pennsylvania - July 31, *1936*

2.  Cropped section from 1936 ad

3.  The Daily Capital - Jefferson City, Missouri - December 1, *1937*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Did you notice in the 1937 ad that it also shows the acl swimsuit label? I wonder what that's all about and why the mystery label bottle is the one that's enlarged?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

It crossed my mind that the 1937 ad, which shows two different labels, might be their way of saying the enlarged paper label bottle is the fake (gyped) bottle and not to buy it. But if that's what they're trying to say, they sure have a funny way of conveying it. Not to mention in the earlier 1936 ad there is nothing about it I can see that even hints at the bottle being the fake one.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here is the so called mystery bottle from both ads side-by-side for comparison. I have examined them closely and am convinced they are identical stock images that probably originated from the same source, with that same source possibly being the 7up parent company. The odds of two different newspapers in two different states from two different years using the identical stock image seems slim to me. 

Note:  After opening the images, click on the 'previous-next-first' box for immediate back-and-forth comparisons and notice they are identical.

1. 1936
2. 1937


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

To Clarify ... 

Where I said ... 

"The odds of two different newspapers in two different states from two different years using the identical stock image seems slim to me."

I meant is ... 

The odds of two different newspapers in two different states from two different years *separately creating* the identical stock image *without them originating from the same source* seems slim to me.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because I'm starting to go in circles and not finding an official explanation for the introduction of the 7up ACL Swimsuit Girl label in 1935, nor what the curved white background with the squared-off lip might be, I'm going to take a break for a while and let things temporarily stand on the following three images and let them resonate for the time being as possibilities to what might have influenced the ACL label. I especially like these particular images because they are sequentially the earliest ones I can find. 

1.  *1931*
2.  *1932*
3.  *1933*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This ad is especially for member Canadacan. I particularly like the wording "A Glass of 7-Up" and the image of the Slenderizing Lady on the right is the only one like it I have ever seen and think its totally cool. 

From ...

The Winnipeg Tribune - Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - October 3, 1936


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ...

Do you see what I see in the 1936 Canadian ad where they use the word ...


Stretch


Hmmm, I wonder if this is a clue to the origin of the Slenderizing Lady and explains exactly what she's doing? In other words ... 

Stretching for Exercise


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And not necessarily *reaching* for bubbles?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, "Breaktime" is over and its time to get back to work!  

Actually, I'm just kidding, but I was going through my photo files and notes and discovered a few things I forgot to mention. So please bear with me just a little longer as I hope to have this thing fully wrapped-up before you know it. The first thing I forgot was this artist rendering of a 7up ACL bottle from 1949. It demonstrates that some commercial artist were perfectly capable of drawing a 7up bottle without it looking like a ten-year-old kid did it. Following this I have a few more tid-bits of information I forgot to share and will try and get them posted no later than this coming weekend.

[ 1949 Illustration - Not a photograph ]


----------



## Canadacan

SODAPOPBOB said:


> This ad is especially for member Canadacan. I particularly like the wording "A Glass of 7-Up" and the image of the Slenderizing Lady on the right is the only one like it I have ever seen and think its totally cool.
> 
> From ...
> 
> The Winnipeg Tribune - Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - October 3, 1936
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 168724


Oh man that advertisement is killer!...I'm a huge fan of 7up..and in particular Blackwoods!..I had to save that add for my file, thanks for posting Bob...really appreciate that


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

CC

Your Welcome!

This next one isn't from Canada, but I bet you and others will like it anyway. Its my personal favorite.

From ...

The Sedalia Democrat - Sedalia, Missouri - February 3, 1936


----------



## Canadacan

Yes that is a good one!....before I read I thought what the devil are those demons doing...having a swim?...lol


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*PROHIBITION*

January 16, 1920 to December 5, 1933

It was 97 years ago today that the 18th Amendment was ratified and 96 years ago today that Prohibition went into full effect nationwide. 

"The 18th Amendment to the Constitution banned the manufacture, sale, and transportation of alcoholic beverages in the U.S. and its possessions. Contrary to common belief, it did not prohibit the purchase or consumption of alcohol. The Amendment was proposed by Congress on December 18, 1917. That’s the day it passed the Senate. The day earlier it had passed the House. The Amendment was ratified on January 16, 1919. It went into effect one year later, January 16, 1920. It was repealed by the 21st Amendment on December 5, 1933."


As we know, 7up was test marketed in 1928 and available to the general public in 1929. Both of those dates were during the Prohibition years and I have seen numerous, unconfirmed accounts stating that part of 7up's early success was due in part to Charles Grigg selling 7up to Speakeasies. I plan to look into this closer and see if the "Speakeasy" aspect is fact or fiction. But regardless of that, 7up was pretty widespread when Prohibition ended in 1933. One thing is certain - early 7up advertising definitely focused on alcohol, hangovers, and using 7up as a mixer for cocktails. It is this 'cocktail mixer' aspect that I'm currently focusing on, with particular emphasis on cocktail *glasses*. And if this sounds like I'm leading up to something, you're right! 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here are just two of hundreds of ads I've seen showing a connection between 7up and alcohol in the early years. Some of the ads I've seen make it sound like 7up was strictly for adults, and it wasn't until later that they started promoting it as a drink for the entire family. And the alcohol connection wasn't just in the United States, it included Canada as well ... 

1.  The Journal Times Bulletin - Racine, Wisconsin - May 3, 1936

2.  The Winnipeg Tribune - Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada - December 31, 1937


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The use of 7up as a mixer wasn't limited to just hard alcohol either, it also included *wine* ...

The Montana Butte Standard - Butte, Montana - December 20, 1936


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Did you notice in two of the last three ads I posted where they used the words *glasses*/*glass*? I noticed it too and have seen dozens of ads that use similar wording. Hmmm, not only was there a connection between 7up and alcohol, but its starting to look as if there might also have been a connection with 7up and cocktail-type *glasses*.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now you know why I posted these particular images earlier - and not just because two of them include glasses, but also because of the dates, which, like I said, are the earliest 7up ads I can find ... 




SODAPOPBOB said:


> 1.  *1931*
> 2.  *1932*
> 3.  *1933*
> 
> View attachment 168721
> 
> View attachment 168722
> 
> View attachment 168723


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of cocktail glasses ...

I searched the newspaper archives between 1930 and 1940 to see what a typical cocktail glass looked like during that time period and found hundreds of examples. Of course there were variations in style, but the majority of them looked like the ones pictured in the following ads. 

Note:  I did not deliberately look for cocktail glasses that only had flared rims, its just so happened that the *majority* of the styles I found during that time period had a flared rim of some type. 

I'm posting ads from the following years because they are the closest to the date when the 7up ACL swimsuit label was first introduced in 1935. The names of the newspapers they came from can be see when you open the attachments.  

1. 1933
2. 1934
3. 1935


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And my personal favorite ...

No pictures of cocktail glasses in this one, but I can't help but wonder if the cartoonish lady in the measuring cup is related to the Slenderizing Lady /Swimsuit Girl? 

[1933]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Inconclusive Conclusion ...*

Despite the fact that I have absolutely nothing to prove it, it is my considered opinion at this juncture that the design on the 1935 7UP ACL Swimsuit Girl label with the curve and squared-off overhang has 'something' to do with one and/or all of the following. And this doesn't mean I believe that its necessarily part of a glass, although it might be, but rather that it has *something* to do with ...

1.  Alcohol
2.  Alcohol Mixers
3.  Alcohol Consumption
4.  Cocktails
5.  Cocktail Mixers
6.  Cocktail Glasses
7.  Etc., etc.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*PART TWO ...*


*7UP & SPEAKEASIES  ~  FACT OR FICTION?*


I'm just now starting to research this and not sure what, if anything, I will find, but I thought I'd take a look anyway and see if I can confirm or refute this claim that is stated in so many historical accounts about the early days of 7up. 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For starters ...

It doesn't require much evidence or proof to make a connection between the 1935 7up swimsuit girl and some of the girls of the 1920s and 1930s who were often referred to as Flappers. Charles Grigg was obviously aware of Flappers and their general appearance when he designed and/or approved the design for his early 7up labels. But just to get things started, here are a few original images from the 1920s and 1930s pertaining to Flappers, with emphasis on *Speakeasy* Flappers ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just to be fair about this I need to point out that Speakeasy Girls weren't the only girls in town during the 1920s and early 1930s. There were also 'Swimsuit Girls.' By the way, did you know that it is not known if the 'Slenderizing Lady' was wearing a swimsuit or not? Some believe its just a silhouette and that she's not wearing a swimsuit. But I won't go there and will let the real experts figure that one out. But I thought it might be helpful to see what women's swimsuits looked like when the first ACL bottle came out in 1935. So here we go - pick the one you like best (even though most of them pretty much look alike)  

1.  1931
2.  1933
3.  1935


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, enough of this swimsuit stuff - its almost time for the NFL playoff game between the St. Louis Chiefs and the New England Patriots. My son-in-law is at the game today and he said he is going to wave at us from time to time so I need look for him - which is another needle in a haystack that I'll probably never find!  


:flag:



(To be continued)


----------



## Photon440

Wow, this is pretty interesting stuff, you're really sleuthing here!  The largest swimsuit ads from your post #351 shows Sheila Terry in the bottom right modelling a suit, she was a small time actress who was in a couple of John Wayne films.

After reading all this, I was looking for the 'thanks' button.  (I'm used to it on other forums).  :fireworks:


----------



## bluegrassfan76

Thanks for posting!  I collect soda bottles but have never seen one of these older brown 7-Up bottles.  What is the date for those and where did you find them?

Michael


----------



## iggyworf

I've been away for 2 days. Bob you are really cooking on this. Great job. I like #2 the best. Funny note, lots of material in those old swim suits for a little money. In today's world the skimpiest of bikini's with hardly 10 threads to them, go for big bucks!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder!

Prohibition was in effect between ...

*January 16, 1920 and December 5, 1933*

So anything related to 7up during those specific dates was during Prohibition. Which makes me wonder why 7up would be advertising anything related to "Hangovers" if alcohol was banned when these ads were published in January of 1932 and May of 1933? Part of the answer can be found in the following references, which are only two of dozens of references I have seen that talk about the same thing ...


 "Prohibition banned only the manufacturing, sale, and transport - but not possession or consuming of alcohol"

http://www.1920-30.com/prohibition/


It wasn’t illegal to drink alcohol during Prohibition.

"The 18th Amendment only forbade the “manufacture, sale and transportation of intoxicating liquors”—not their consumption. By law, any wine, beer or spirits Americans had stashed away in January 1920 were theirs to keep and enjoy in the privacy of their homes. For most, this amounted to only a few bottles, but some affluent drinkers built cavernous wine cellars and even bought out whole liquor store inventories to ensure they had healthy stockpiles of legal hooch."

http://www.history.com/news/10-things-you-should-know-about-prohibition

[The names of this newspapers and dates are in the title text]


(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Side Note:  

So called "Speakeasies" during Prohibition were referred to and even had signs out front that said ... 

Soft Drink Parlor
Soft Drink Emporium
Soft Drink Establishment

Of course, they were also selling mixed drinks along with soft drinks!

(I'm currently searching for examples of those original "Soft Drink Parlor" signs)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still looking for Prohibition era "Soft Drink Parlor" signs, but wanted to start with this matchbook, which was described as being from a place during Prohibition ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

Please don't think I've gotten so far outside the box that I have forgotten about the "Slenderizing Lady / Swimsuit Girl" because she is still a big part of my focus.  Along with the Speakeasy/Prohibition stuff, I'm also keeping my eyes peeled to see if I can find anything that might have influenced the "Slenderizing/Swimsuit" motif/design on 7up bottles. One possible influence might have been cocktail sets such as this one - described as being from the 1920s, 1930s ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And, yes, it looks more like an "Ice Water" set to me, too! But I suppose it could have been designed to hold just about any type of liquid, including alcohol, etc.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...

This is just one of hundreds of newspaper articles that refer to Speakeasies as Soft Drink Parlors! 

From ...

The Wilkes-Barre Record - Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania - May 15, 1931


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

bluegrassfan76 said:


> Thanks for posting!  I collect soda bottles but have never seen one of these older brown 7-Up bottles.  What is the date for those and where did you find them?
> 
> Michael



Michael

As far as I know, amber 7up bottles were produced between 1935 and about 1945-48. As to "where I found them," I'm not sure if you mean where I found the "pictures" or the actual bottles? The truth is, I don't own a single 'amber' 7up bottle! All of my early example are green. The attached chart was compiled several years ago by historian and bottle researcher, Cecil Munsey, but has been amended to when later examples were discovered after the chart had been published.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

But if I ever was to acquire an amber 7up bottle, the one pictured here is the one I would want. Its the only 'standard' non stubby 7up bottle ever produced and was made in San Diego, California in 1935-36. I saw one similar to this in Reno, Nevada last summer that I could have had for $300 but passed on it. This particular example sold on eBay on January 5, 2014 for $449.95.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Notice in this 1932 ad where I underlined in red "Sylph-like." This is a term I occasionally see in 7up ads and discovered that "Sylph" means ...



Noun: 

1.  A slender, graceful woman or girl.

2. (In folklore) one of a race of supernatural beings supposed to inhabit the air. 


I consider this a clue to the origin of not only the Slenderizing Lady / Swimsuit Girl, but also to the origin of the "Flying-7"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

You probably won't be able to read this full page article unless you save it, but its uses the term "Sylph" several times and talks about the government getting involved with numerous products that claimed to be sure-cures that would help women have a Sylph-like figure. 7up is not one of the products mentioned but it helps us understand the craze that was going on at the time 7up was first introduced. The article is from *1928* ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

So I guess its time to ask what, if anything, do the following terms have in common that might be a clue regarding the origin of the curved background with the squared-off lip on ACL 7up bottles?

Lithiated
Lemon
Anti-acid
Slenderizing
Sylph-like
Mixer
Hangover 
Prohibition
Speakeasy
Etc. 

I'm not sure either, but I hope to find out!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:


> *PART TWO ...*
> 
> 
> *7UP & SPEAKEASIES  ~  FACT OR FICTION?*
> 
> 
> I'm just now starting to research this and not sure what, if anything, I will find, but I thought I'd take a look anyway and see if I can confirm or refute this claim that is stated in so many historical accounts about the early days of 7up.
> 
> (To be continued)




This is just one of the numerous accounts I have seen regarding 7up and Prohibition. I can't say for certain, but it appears the newspaper reporter might have gotten some of this information from the 7up Company.

(Standby for more)


Article from ...

The La Crosse Tribune - La Crosse, Michigan - May 24, 1971


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

"Tames Liquor - Glorifies Gin - It Is Not A Soda"

From ...

The Decatur Daily Review - Decatur, Illinois - December 18, *1936*

(Standby for more)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Confirmation? / Proof?*


This isn't exactly the confirmation I was expecting to find regarding 7up's connection with Prohibition and Speakeasies, but if Ben H. Wells, who joined the 7up Company in 1938 and eventually became president, was quoted in 1969 as having said as much, then its good enough for me. In the attached snippet he says ...

"... as a mixer for the white lightning of the day. It modified the wallop."


1.  Snippet from ... Business Week magazine - February 15, 1969

2.  Newspaper article from ... The Holland Evening Sentinel - Holland, Michigan - August 14, 1969 (Two parts)


----------



## iggyworf

Excellent. I like the fact that Wells was born in Michigan.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy / Rich

Thanks

Now I can continue to focus on the swimsuit label and see if I can find ... ???


----------



## Goodman

Hi Bob, it's Mitch(goodman1966). Just Goodman now. In reference to your chart of the amber 7up bottles on the last page. Does that come from an issue of Old Bottle Magazine ? If so, I have that issue. If you don't have it I would be glad to send it to you. I would like it back when you are done. As far as the first advertising. The article states H.C. Griggs drew up the first advertisement for 7up. But you probably already knew that.  Pm me if you need that book. Mitch


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mitch

When you say "Old Bottle Magazine" are you referring to a magazine by that exact title or do you mean it in generic terms? I got the chart from an 8 page article that appeared in the November-December 2004 issue of "the Soda Fizz" magazine authored by Cecil Munsey and Ron Fowler.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of the 2004  "Soda Fizz" article, the attached image is from page 5 of that article And even though the authors do not specify its origin or the date, they do mention that some of the material came from various publications such as ... 

The National Bottlers' Gazette
The National Carbonator and Bottler 
The Carbonator and Bottler National Journal

So I'm assuming this image likely came from one of those publications. What I find most interesting about it is the possibility that it is referring to a paper label. Notice the wording in lower portion (that I cropped-out) where it says ...  

"Write their nearest branch for sample."

I can't say for certain, but it sounds to me like they are referring to the image at the top as being one of the labels. If so, could this possibly be the very first 7up paper label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ... 

The typical "Slenderizing Lady" paper label was trademarked in 1931. If the one in my last post is in fact a paper label, then I'm thinking it precedes this one, and is possibly from 1929-1930 ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of the 1931 "Slenderizing Lady" paper label trademark, I said it before and will say it again - I have no doubt whatsoever that the 1931 paper label *influenced* the 1935 ACL label. They are just too similar for it to be a mere coincidence. But why the 1931 paper label does not have a curved white background and does not have the square lip, but the ACL label does, I cannot say. But I'll bet you a million-dollars there was a specific reason why the designer added the curve and the square lip!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here it is again in all of it's mysterious glory ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ...

Based on recent evidence, I am changing my opinion that the ACL swimsuit label was influenced by alcohol, cocktails, mixer, hangovers, etc, and now suspect that it, as well as the early paper labels, were more likely influenced by aspects related to ...

Medicinal Benefits
Slenderizing

(More about this later)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on what I've been seeing, it appears that 7up didn't start to fully focus on the Hangover/Mixer aspect until shortly after Prohibition was repealed on December 5, 1933. Prior to that date their focus seems to have been on the health benefits of 7up, which included its alkaline properties and slenderizing effects. That's why I'm now leaning toward their early paper labels as possibly having been influenced by this Alkaline/Slenderizing aspect and not the Hangover/Mixer aspect that came later. So this gives me a search window of about six years between 1928-29 to about 1933-34 to see if I can find anything that might explain the who-what-where-when for the origin of their first bottles and labels. Unfortunately, the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to only provides a limited number of 7up ads during that time period, with 1931 being the earliest date I can find for a 7up related advertisement. However, the archives recently added "The St. Louis Dispatch" to their site, but in order to view those particular listings from the 1930s, I need to upgrade. But because my basic subscription is paid up through April of this year, I don't plan to upgrade until then. In the meantime, I will have to settle for ads like this from ... 

The Salt Lake Tribune - Salt Lake City, Utah - January 28, *1933*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

In case I didn't make it clear, the St. Louis newspapers will likely have a lot more information about early 7up because St. Louis, Missouri is where 7up originated.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

During my seemingly endless searches, I never once came across an advertisement that even hinted at 7up's "*new*" ACL bottle. Probably the closest thing I have been able to find, which is two years after their first ACL was introduced in 1935, is this ad from ...

The El Paso Herald-Post  -  El Paso, Texas  -  September 18, *1937*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Notice what it says on this 7up bottle that is considered the absolute first ACL 7up bottle ever produced, which has been confirmed as being dated 1935. Need I say more about the Alkaline/Purifying aspects of early 7up and why I think they carried the medicinal theme over to their next, revised ACL bottle with the swimsuit girl on the label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

So the question still remains unanswered as to what influenced the curved white background with the square lip on the ACL swimsuit girl label and why they produced ...

This



And this



And this




During *the same year of 1935*?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

So the next time you examine a 7up ACL swimsuit girl bottle, think ... 

Lithiated
Anti-acid
Alkaline
Purifying
Slenderizing
Etc.


... and see if something comes to mind that might account for the *curved white background with the square lip*. Maybe its nothing, but for the time being I honestly believe its "*something*"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And the best possible "something" I can think of might be found by studying this ..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or maybe its "something" like this ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Last up is this ...

1.  Ad from The Salt Lake Tribune - June 4, *1931*

2.  Bottle cap that matches the image in the 1931 ad

3.  Bottle cap that's considered 7up's first and likely precedes the 1931 example


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And with this I rest my case ...


1931


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

That is ...

I "rest my case" until April of this year when I upgrade my newspaper subscription and get a good look at those 1920s and 1930s St. Louis, Missouri newspapers.


----------



## iggyworf

Thanx Bob for all the great research! Loved this thread.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Great work Bob. I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy and Bass

Thanks - I'm glad you enjoyed it! However, I just discovered something that might be another clue. It started when member cowseatmaize hinted at a possible Esther Williams connection. But because swimmer/actress Esther Williams was born in 1921 and didn't graduate from high school until 1939, there's no way she could have had any influence with anything related to 7up between 1928 and 1935. When the Slenderizing Lady paper label was trademarked in 1931, Esther Williams was only ten years old. But regardless of that, it was definitely cow's mention of Esther Williams that inspired my diving platform theory that I presented earlier. Plus, I heard from Bill Lockhart again, who was replying to some of the theories I presented him with early on, which at that time did not include my mentioning anything about Esther Williams or diving, and yet one of the ideas that Bill came up with on his own was that the curve and square-lip might in some way tie in with the swimsuit girl and/or something to do with swimming. Which in turn led me to ... 

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which in turn (in a round-about way) led me to this 1932 ad where I underlined in red the word "Sylph-like" ...

(To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because I was curious about the term "Sylph-like" I researched it further and discovered it was used in advertising at least as early as *1810*. But because there are at least 20,000 newspaper listings that use the term "Sylph-like" its impossible for me to look at every one of them. But I did discover that during the 1920s the term was used on a regular basis in advertisements involving women's clothing and losing weight, with the majority involving weight loss. Of course, not all of the "Sylph-like" ads include images, but of those that do, many of them show women wearing bathing suits. Of particular interest are the ads from the mid 1920s that pertain to a brand of gum called "Silph Reducing Chewing Gum." The gum was advertised nationwide and appears to have been extremely popular at the time. 

The points I'm trying to make regarding "Sylph-like" and "Silph Chewing Gum" are ... 

1.  The term was used long before Charles Grigg ever conceived 7up
2.  Charles Grigg did not invent the term 
3.  The term was already being used in advertising when 7up was invented
4.  Because Charles Grigg was involved in advertising at least as early as 1910, he had to be well aware of the term
5.  Charles Grigg probably used the term because it was a popular craze when he invented 7up
6.  Because many of the 1920s "Sylph-like" advertisements show women wearing swimsuits, Charles Grigg had to be  
     aware of that as well 

Question: 

But does all of this mean the curved background with the square lip on the 7up swimsuit label has anything to do with "*swimming*" and/or "*diving*"  ?

Answer: 

Possibly



Silph Gum ads from ...

1.  The Decatur Daily Review - Decatur, Illinois - September 27, *1925* (Notice the diving board)

2.  The Joplin Globe - Joplin, Missouri - February 28, *1926* (Joplin and St. Louis are both in Missouri)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Even though Esther Williams was too young to have had an influence on 7up, there was another swim star that might have. 


Meet ...

*Annette Kellerman*

In 1952, Esther Williams made a biographical movie about Annette Kellerman titled "Million Dollar Mermaid." Even though Kellerman wasn't exactly what I'd call Sylph-like, she definitely was well known and even had a major influence on the style of women's swimsuits. I wonder if ol' Charles Grigg had a thing for Annette Kellerman? When Annette hit it big in the United States in 1917, Charles Grigg was 49 years old. But because of Kellerman's star-power, Charles Grigg was certainly aware of her.


"After underwater ballet performances in London, Annette once again combined her swimming and theatrical skills, creating her own stage show complete with dancing, singing and diving. By 1917 Annette had become the United States’ highest-paid female vaudeville performer."

"Annette’s choice of swimwear attracted controversy. In 1907, after moving to the United States, she was arrested on a beach in Boston for public indecency as she was wearing a boy’s one-piece bathing suit. In response to this event, she designed and popularised a women’s one-piece swimming costume composed of a tunic over the top of a one-piece. This contrasted with the common restrictive women’s swimwear of the time, which involved a smock and pantaloons that went down to the ankles. By wearing better fitted swimwear, Annette had more freedom of movement and was able to swim better and compete at the highest level.  In her book, How to Swim, she states, ‘There is no more reason why you should wear…those awkward, unnecessary, lumpy “bathing suits,” than there is that you should wear lead chains.’



http://feminartsy.com/swimming-against-the-tide-the-life-of-annette-kellerman/



http://books.publishing.monash.edu/...an’+Women+on+Global+Display/173/OEBPS/c01.htm


Link to 1931 Ad shown below ... 

https://witness2fashion.wordpress.com/tag/stockings-with-swimsuits-bathing-suits/ 





Plus this article - Date unknown


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## SODAPOPBOB

There are literally hundreds of newspaper articles and advertisements for Annette Kellerman, and she even had her own line of women's swimwear for many years. I won't bombard this thread with those ads, but its important to know how influential she was as a swimmer and diver in the 1920s and 1930s. Of course this doesn't mean that Charles Grigg designed his first 7up paper label because of her, nor the later ACL label, but he 'might' have.

This particular ad is from ...

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle - New York - August 6, *1930*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Based on what I've been seeing, its no exaggeration to say that Annette Kellerman almost singlehandedly defined women's swimsuit styles in the 1920s and 1930s. It was because of her that women's bathing suits went from gunny sacks to single piece suits. Nor do I believe that an advertising man like Charles Grigg was not aware of Kellerman's influence when he designed his Slenderizing Lady in 1931. Take for example the following Kellerman ad from 1927 and compare it to the 7up ad from 1931. And be sure to check out them-thar clouds ...  

Annette Kellerman ad from ...

The Fitchburg Sentinel - Fitchburg, Massachusetts - July 8, *1927*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S.

While searching the newspaper archives I scrolled past an Annette Kellerman ad that actually showed some bubbles, which appeared to be rising from water, or possibly a swimming pool, but when I went back to look for it, I couldn't find it again. So I'm going to take another and will post it if I find it again. 

(To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB

I can't find the Annette Kellerman 'bubble' ad. There must be at least 10,000 ads that mention her in one manner or another. Because I jumped around so much between the 1920s and 1940s, I have no clue what year it was from. All I can remember is that I scrolled past it and planned on going back to open the entire ad, but then got side-tracked and couldn't find it again. It probably wasn't anything definitive anyway, but it just bugs me now because it slipped through my fingers. But regardless of that particular ad, suffice it to say that Annette Kellerman could very well have been on Charles Grigg's mind when he came up with the Slenderizing Lady in 1931. You can do a quick Google search on Annette Kellerman and you'll soon see how influential she was in her day when it came to anything related to swimming and swimsuits. She died in 1975 at the age of 80.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a Wikipedia link and picture of Annette Kellerman around 1904 when she was about 18 years old ...

http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/annette-kellerman


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## SODAPOPBOB

Call me crazy and accuse me of going way outside the box, but ...

It wouldn't surprise me one iota if ol' Charles Grigg had Annette Kellerman in mind when he came up with the Slenderizing Lady in 1931. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did it intentionally. By 1931, almost everyone in the world was probably familiar with Annette Kellerman and her swimming/diving talents, not to mention the numerous silent movies she made in the teens and early 1920s. So I'm thinking that ol' Charles Grigg took advantage of her swimming fame and slapped it on his labels as a ploy to create instant recognition with an image that the whole world had already been connecting with. 


Of course, proving it is a horse of a different color!     :deadhorse:


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## iggyworf

Extremely similar.




love that dead horse thing.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy / Rich

I was thinking about creating a similar comparison, but you beat me to it. Good job!

Now create one of the white-curve-square-lip part that looks like a swimming pool with a diving board or diving platform and we can put this puppy to rest!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found it!

Here's the so called "bubble ad" I was talking about. Its a silent movie she made in 1920 called "What Women Love" ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, iggy

I didn't want you to outdo me, so here's my 7up / Annette Kellerman comparison ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

iggy / Rich

I forgot to tell ya that the Annette Kellerman pose with her arms outstretched was her "world famous" pose. The majority of the pictures I've seen of her between about 1904 and 1934 show her in that exact pose. I'm not sure she's the one who originated it, but it was clearly her favorite pose. But what's weird is, they all show her left-side profile and I cannot find one of her in a right-side profile. Here's a picture of her from 1926, which is also autographed ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I really need to get a life!


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## SODAPOPBOB

But then again, maybe not!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's that 1916 Annette Kellerman prison tower picture without the 7up for those who would like to see the original ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Artistic inspiration sometimes comes from unexpected places ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I realize that trying to make a connection between Annette Kellerman and the first 7up labels is pretty farfetched, but it can't be denied that she was highly influential in her day involving two major aspects, which were ...

1.  Physical Fitness
2.  Swimming & Diving

Which were two of 7ups early advertising themes as well!

[Attachments]

Annette Kellerman Books ~ Both from 1918

1.  Physical Beauty ~ How to Keep It
2.  How to Swim

(These books currently sell for $500+)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Additionally ...

1.  I have to believe that Charles Grigg was well aware of Annette Kellerman's fame.

2.  I have to believe that whoever designed the Slenderizing Lady was also aware of Annette Kellerman's fame and that some 
     of the people who saw it would wonder if it was reminiscent of Annette Kellerman.

3.  Even though I believe these are strong possibilities, I cannot now and may never be able to prove it.

4.  I do not know what inspired the white-curve-square-lip design on the 7up swimsuit ACL bottles, but believe it was 
     intentional and replicates something specific.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ... (Maybe for sure this time)

Here are the two 7up labels whose design origins still remain a mystery ...

1.  Paper Label w/Slenderizing Lady

2.  ACL Label w/Swimsuit Girl


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## SODAPOPBOB

Surely you saw this coming ...  



*PART THREE*


"In Search of"


This chapter should be short-lived because we are either going to find an actual example or we're not. I'm not even sure if it replicates an actual label or a fantasy item of some type. I know the 1931 date at the bottom is not actually on the so called label itself, but it does suggest the year its from. Look close and you will see where the byline starts with ...

*An Anti-Acid Beverage*

Now click back through this thread and notice the majority of the paper labels' byline starts with ...  

*The Added Citrate*

I'm trying to determine if this is an actual label from 1931 or from some other time period, or just a fantasy item? The thing is, I cannot find a picture of an actual label that has the "An Anti-Acid Beverage" on it and wanted to see if anyone has one and/or can confirm and/or refute its authenticity? I've had this image in my files for so long I do not recall where I got it from or when. I titled it as a bottle hanger but I'm not even sure about that. Any and all help will be mucho appreciated. Thanks.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

I realize this new mystery label has what appears to be French writing on it, but that could be for the Canadian market and doesn't necessarily tell us a whole lot about it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hmm, maybe I should have looked before I leaped, but I did say this will probably be a short-lived chapter. Someone is selling these "decals" on eBay but they don't explain their origin. They appear to be obvious fantasy items, but even with that said, I can't help but wonder if the 1931 example is a replica of an original? 

Check'em out!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-7up...863664?hash=item43c986cd70:g:snYAAOxyThVTbhne


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## SODAPOPBOB

Oops, wrong picture. Here's the one from eBay ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I cropped the 1931 decal from the others so as to get a better look at the wording. If it replicates an original label, I have never seen one like it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Actually, this might be kind of interesting. Especially if the so called 1931 label is in fact a replica of an original. If original, then its possible we have never-ever seen the real deal before. Notice the Slenderizing Lady in the 1931 replica is wearing a swimsuit but the others aren't. You can also see the hairline on the 1931. I'm also wondering if the yellowish color might replicate to color of an original?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hmm, not mention of it in Bill Lockhart's article. He only mentions four variations ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Correction/Typo ...

Bill mentions *five* variations and not four!


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## Photon440

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Surely you saw this coming ...
> 
> 
> 
> *PART THREE*
> 
> 
> "In Search of"
> 
> 
> This chapter should be short-lived because we are either going to find an actual example or we're not. I'm not even sure if it replicates an actual label or a fantasy item of some type. I know the 1931 date at the bottom is not actually on the so called label itself, but it does suggest the year its from. Look close and you will see where the byline starts with ...
> 
> *An Anti-Acid Beverage*
> 
> Now click back through this thread and notice the majority of the paper labels' byline starts with ...
> 
> *The Added Citrate*
> 
> I'm trying to determine if this is an actual label from 1931 or from some other time period, or just a fantasy item? The thing is, I cannot find a picture of an actual label that has the "An Anti-Acid Beverage" on it and wanted to see if anyone has one and/or can confirm and/or refute its authenticity? I've had this image in my files for so long I do not recall where I got it from or when. I titled it as a bottle hanger but I'm not even sure about that. Any and all help will be mucho appreciated. Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 168908
> 
> View attachment 168909



That bottle hanger was my scan Bob, I put it up here a few years ago.  Along with the other years, they were a promotional item that went out with the cases of 7-uP somewhere around 1977 when I was working at the bottling plant.  The reason for the French is because it was a Canadian distribution.  As far as I can recall, these were supposed to be reproductions of originals, perhaps Canadian bottles had some variations.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Photon / Ed

Thanks for the info. The possibility of the decal being a reproduction of an actual label is good news. I just wish I could find one of the originals. If it was an actual label, I'm thinking it was used for an extremely short period of time, which might explain not being able to find one. Part of the wording I'm focusing on is where it says ...

Drink After Eating -
Before Retiring -
On Arising -

Notice on the label that the Slenderizing Lady is wearing a swimsuit with a single back-strap. And then compare it to this picture of Annette Kellerman wearing a similar swimsuit. I'm not sure of the exact date of the Annette Kellerman photo, but it was described as being from the 1920s.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*WAAAY OUTSIDE THE BOX


A Daughter of the Gods*





*Ad From The St. Louis Post-Dispatch ~ St. Louis, Missouri ~ February 24, 1920*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Article from the St. Louis Post Dispatch February 21, 1920*


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## SODAPOPBOB




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## SODAPOPBOB

*1933*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*

Charles Leiper Grigg ~ 1868-1940

1.  This is the only picture I have ever seen of him prior to today.

2.  This is a picture of him that I doubt few people have ever seen.*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Read all about him ...*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*This cardboard sign is possibly one of the first 7up advertising items ever made ...*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*7up Pocket Mirror - 3 1/2" x 2 1/2"*


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## SODAPOPBOB

The End


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## iggyworf

:fireworks::fireworks::fireworks::fireworks:

Thanx Bob for a great time!


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy / Rich


Thanks!


Did you notice we can *edit* now?   :flag:


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## iggyworf

Yes I did. Myself along with others have been asking about that and it seems textev corrected it.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Foot Note:*

I decided not to wait until April to upgrade my newspaper subscription and did it yesterday. I have only skimmed the surface so far but discovered that the Seven Up Company did not start their 'national' advertising campaign until around 1940. Most of the advertising prior to 1940 was left to the discretion of individual bottlers. And its true what I hinted at earlier that paper label bottles were used well into the early 1940s despite the fact that the ACL bottle was first introduced in 1935. Take for example this portion of an article where it says ... 

*new "applied label"*

So far this is the first and only reference I have found that even hints at their new ACL bottle and I hope to eventually find other references like it. And if I do find anything specific, I will be sure to share it. 

(This article is especially interesting because they actually use the term "applied" label)

Article from ...

The Mason City Globe-Gazette  ~  Mason City, Iowa  ~  October 1, *1940*


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## SODAPOPBOB

*"APPLIED LABEL"*

You might recall my saying earlier that searching for specific information is all in how the search is worded. During the course of this thread I have used every word-search combination I could think of but it wasn't until this morning that I started using the words "Applied Label." Oh, I used words like 'bottle', 'label', etc., but for some reason I just never thought to use the word 'applied' along with them. As a result of this new word-search, I'm now finding ads like the previous one, as well as this one from ...

The Denton Record-Chronicle ~ Denton, Texas ~ April 1, *1938*

By the way, if you are a 7up collector, and especially if you collect 7up bottles from Texas, you might want to save this ad because it is possibly the earliest ad I'm going to find regarding a specific reference to an early 7up ACL bottle. Notice the bottle pictured has the embossed neck and is an eight bubble bottle ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 

I believe it was the Owens-Illinois Glass Company who first used the terms "Applied Color / Applied Color Lettering." And even though we generally think that the 'L' in 'ACL' stands for 'Label,' it started out standing for 'Lettering.' At least that's the way I interpret the meaning according to this *1930* Owens-Illinois catalog. By the way, even though this 1930 catalog refers to ACL bottles, no 1930 example has ever been found that I'm aware of. The earliest confirmed ACL bottle is a Jumbo Cola that was made by Owens-Illinois in 1934.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding my newspaper subscription upgrade, prior to upgrading to their new "Publisher Extra" package yesterday, I only had about 100 million *pages* available. But I now have an additional 40 million extra pages to access. And it wasn't cheap either and I just hope it pays off in being able to find something specific involving the development of 7up's swimsuit girl ACL bottle.


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## GLASSHOPPER55

SODAPOPBOB said:


> Regarding my newspaper subscription upgrade, prior to upgrading to their new "Publisher Extra" package yesterday, I only had about 100 million *pages* available. But I now have an additional 40 million extra pages to access. And it wasn't cheap either and I just hope it pays off in being able to find something specific involving the development of 7up's swimsuit girl ACL bottle.



Well if anyone can, you can. I've been following all your research for a long time on here and I cannot even begin to say how much your dedication and research has helped me and others. 

Keep up the GREAT work, Bob!

GLASSHOPPER55


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## SODAPOPBOB

GH

Thanks - That's just about the nicest compliment I've ever received. My research isn't always conclusive, but hopefully it will open some doors for future investigation. As for the mysterious 1931 label, I can't find any confirmation for it but suspect it could very well have been used for a very short period of time. If original, they are no doubt extremely rare and something to keep our eyes peeled for. 

Thanks again to everyone who participated in and/or took an interest in this discussion. 

Sodapop *bob*


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