# Antique? Older than 50 years old?



## cbeehner (Feb 15, 2014)

Says Crown Prod. Corp. on the bottom, with a 74 and an 8 with S.F. - L.A.  I found it and would like to know when it was made. Thanks


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## epackage (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm thinking 1940-50's vinegar bottle.... Unless the 74 is for 1974, but that form looks older to me


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 15, 2014)

Hello, it looks like ketchup or vinegar from the 30's. It wouldn't be considered an antique but it is over 50 years. I think the recognized standard is 100 years in the US now.


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## cbeehner (Feb 16, 2014)

A little more history on this bottle...  I am a Peace Officer working on a Arch site theft case and this bottle was recovered by myself and an additional officer.  I would really appreciate if anyone can confirm the exact year of the bottle.  Per our laws it mustbe 50 years or older to be an Archaeological item, in order to successfully charge the subject. The lettering on the bottom states... Crown Prod Corp.  S.F. - L.A.   In the middle of the bottle is has a 74 and below the 74 is a circle with a letter L inside and below the L circle is an 8.  If anyone can point me in the right direction in a research finding on the exact production date or how they came across the correct data.  Or how I may be able to obtain the correct information, so I can prove it in a court of law. Please see attached image. Thanks,


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## epgorge (Feb 16, 2014)

It is hard to say from looking at the base. Can you send a picture of the entire bottle, particularly the lip, sides and any features the glass holds, such as embossing or markings. The lip can tell me a lot. From the bottom it looks like a quart soda bottle. Any marks on the bottom are probably mold numbers, in they make many different molds of some bottles because they wear out of something changes from the original mold. That being said, sometimes the number does reflect the year it was produced. Some milk bottles do that. Is there a seam that goes up the side and stops before the top? This bottle from the base appears to be an ACL (soda or quart bottle made from an automatic bottling machine). Even if it were a 50 year old antiquity, it probably wouldn't be that valuable. A buck item unless some collector happens to need that particular piece of glass to complete a collection.  Epgorge


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## epgorge (Feb 16, 2014)

Sorry, I didn't see the first picture. That is most definitely a sauce bottle. Probably ketchup. The threads are farther apart and only two twists. That is the way to date this bottle. Go to Bill Lindsey's excellent sight on bottles. Here is a link to the dating. You want to look at the twists in the top that hold the cap. I believe it to be before 1950. http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm. It is just one part of a voluminous site on the morphology of glass making on this continent. Here is a link to just the tops and twists and base ID, I mentioned: http://www.sha.org/bottle...adedating.htm#Question 12Hope this helps. I don't like thieves.ep


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 16, 2014)

Are you in Oregon? They have the toughest laws that I'm aware of. The bottle is a 10 cent bottle if someone might want to put a long stemmed rose in it. Otherwise it's recyclable and that's about it now.The mark sounds like Latchford but they were in operation from 1925-89. I'm not sure if they used a date system.I'm going with 1938 as a wild assumption but unless your charging the suspect with other crimes it seams like a complete waste of yours and the courts time, not to mention tax dollars.No offense..


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## epgorge (Feb 16, 2014)

For some reason I assume he is Canadian. Hard to say what is a waste of time when we know little about the facts. My dad use to say He "would rather live with a thief than a liar", because he could always secure his things.My grandmother would quickly retort, "show me a thief and I will show you a liar". The sight I linked you to is just what you need to prove a time line in a court case as the web pages were done professionally and researched and put together by an employee (at the time) of the interior Department of the U.S. Government.  Bill Lindsey is his name and if you need his expertise contact me privately and I will give you his email address or other contact information. He is retired and living in Oregon with his wife enjoying his leisure time fishing. Enjoy your work week.


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 16, 2014)

I browsed a little and New York is actually 50 years according the the STATE MUSEUM.Oregon is 75 years but the government site there.Of coarse things from a archeological dig site and state land are different.New York.The legislation generally describes the protected resources as "any object of archeological or paleontological interest." In general, objects deposited on state lands that are less than 50 years old are not considered to be of "archeological interest." However, there may be specific collecting policies that prevent the removal of such objects of even relatively recent vintage (such as in State Parks or State Historic Sites).......... Crown was huge and went way outside SF and LA but it may be Calif. I had to many links for them so I stopped looking..


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## surfaceone (Feb 16, 2014)

cbeehner said:
			
		

> A little more history on this bottle...  I am a Peace Officer working on a Arch site theft case and this bottle was recovered by myself and an additional officer.  I would really appreciate if anyone can confirm the exact year of the bottle.  Per our laws it mustbe 50 years or older to be an Archaeological item, in order to successfully charge the subject...


 Hello Officer Beehner, Perhaps you can provide some more information on this archeological site. What you have is a mid 20th Century vinegar bottle. I do not believe that you can closely date it. It has no value, other than as a recyclable. Where in our country can someone be busted for picking up trash? The idea of this is quite disturbing to me. The minimum age for something to be a "genuine" antique is 100 years. "L in an oval (or a circle, somewhat horizontally flattened,_ seen on bottles_)……….W.J.Latchford Glass Company, Los Angeles, California (1925-1938); this became the Latchford-Marble Glass Company (1938-1956); and then, Latchford Glass Company (1957-c.1989). Mark was first used approximately 1925, although during the “Latchford-Marble” era, the mark “LM in an oval” was used instead." http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks-3/ 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GILD-EDGE-APPLE-CIDER-SAN-FRANCISCO-LABELED-CLICQUOT-CLUB-SODA-BOTTLE-/221356053434?nma=true&si=t4kTrrnHwwm59bHUZQsyIH22cTc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557​


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 16, 2014)

All that and plus some of these laws are more than 50 years old. I do believe there is still a law against walking your livestock on Sunday in a  Massachusetts town. It was from the 1700's and I think they left it there for a touch of humor.[]


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## epgorge (Feb 16, 2014)

cowseatmaize said:
			
		

> I browsed a little and New York is actually 50 years according the the STATE MUSEUM.Oregon is 75 years but the government site there.Of coarse things from a archeological dig site and state land are different.New York.The legislation generally describes the protected resources as "any object of archeological or paleontological interest." In general, objects deposited on state lands that are less than 50 years old are not considered to be of "archeological interest." However, there may be specific collecting policies that prevent the removal of such objects of even relatively recent vintage (such as in State Parks or State Historic Sites).......... Crown was huge and went way outside SF and LA but it may be Calif. I had to many links for them so I stopped looking..


Hey Eric, Good to hear from you. Long time. All of this kind of hits right to the heart of what we do, eh? My in-laws come from Carlisle, MA and that town has rules on digging, in general. There is value in what we do and in many cases, in the past, there were diggers here who were putting out incriminating threads about digging in the night in municipalities, as Public Works people. I always wondered about the legality and if they would someday be held accountable for what really, is a just hobby to many. Treasure hunting! I have dug many old farms and privies but with permission. I also have been refused when asking to dig. For some, I suppose, it is easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission.


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## glass man (Feb 16, 2014)

VINEGAR..1920's-30's..have seen so very very many from our town dump that is of that age ..been digging there since 1974...JAMIE


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 16, 2014)

Hi Joel.I think for the most part the laws are flawed. I can still walk many back roads and find discarded 60's beer bottles and stuff, probably thrown from a car window. I don't think they hold any historical interest except people were litter bugs, which we know.Maybe when the laws are written for something like "50 years" and passed in the 60's they should state "from time of law passage". 1910's might still have some clues for the archeologist, depending on the area. Ghost towns for example. Oh, and to the officer. If your trying to prosecute one of those jackass diggers from a "reality" show, go for it. I can't stand the majority of those shows. I saw one where they used dynamite and and ran around screaming. I had to change the channel.


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## cbeehner (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm unable to post pics of the bottle at this time, due to it being processed for evidence.  There are two seems that go down the length of the bottle and from what I remember they go through the bottle cap twists.  The laws are written with the intent to prosecute those who steal items of historical interests for the state, and as a State Peace Officer I will enforce those laws.  I happen to work for the state of California and per Title 14 CCR 4308 - it states no one shall remove items from a archaeological area.  And department heads and the district attorney, have stated anything older than 50 years is deemed historical and therefore archaeological per CCR 4308.  I would really like to find out some more information on the dating of this bottle if possible.  Thanks to all who have given me the information thus far.


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## 2find4me (Feb 28, 2014)

It is a shame that some diggers are not responsible enough to ask for permission to dig, no matter if it is a 1860 Soda or a 1998 Coke.


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## OsiaBoyce (Feb 28, 2014)

I guess the cops quit hassling people in California over pot.......................now to fill all their time they bust people over worthless bottles. "..I will enforce those laws................", did not we hear something like  that at Nuremberg. Scary huh? Cops.


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## epackage (Feb 28, 2014)

cbeehner said:
			
		

> I'm unable to post pics of the bottle at this time, due to it being processed for evidence.  There are two seems that go down the length of the bottle and from what I remember they go through the bottle cap twists.  The laws are written with the intent to prosecute those who steal items of historical interests for the state, and as a State Peace Officer I will enforce those laws.  I happen to work for the state of California and per Title 14 CCR 4308 - it states no one shall remove items from a archaeological area.  And department heads and the district attorney, have stated anything older than 50 years is deemed historical and therefore archaeological per CCR 4308.  I would really like to find out some more information on the dating of this bottle if possible.  Thanks to all who have given me the information thus far.


The bottle is 49 years old, I've been asked to be nice so I'll say no more...


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## Bottles r LEET (Feb 28, 2014)

What are you going to do to this 'thief'? Fine him like 3 cents?


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## 2find4me (Feb 28, 2014)

Bottles r LEET said:
			
		

> What are you going to do to this 'thief'? Fine him like 3 cents?



Lol!!!!! [] [] []


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## cbeehner (Feb 28, 2014)

epackage said:
			
		

> cbeehner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thank you for your concern with the age of the bottle.  I was not justifying my position by quoting a regulation.  I was rather informing you the reader of the law that I am required by law proceed in prosecuting, considering it was at least a Misdemeanor committed in my presence.  The "worthless piece of trash" may not be worth anything to you, however, to the local indians, chinese, and various other groups who have history in this area find items like this bottle, represent more than just a face value of money.  History is history no matter what form it's in. I thank you for your consideration for my safety while driving.


			
				OsiaBoyce said:
			
		

> I guess the cops quit hassling people in California over pot.......................now to fill all their time they bust people over worthless bottles. "..I will enforce those laws................", did not we hear something like  that at Nuremberg. Scary huh? Cops.



As stated above, this bottle to you may not hold any value as to the eyes of a bottle collector, but if items similar to this, be it a bottle, arrow head, mining equipment, geological features, etc... holds value to the State of California and the local people that inhabited the area years ago.  I was hired to enforce laws and regulations, as any peace officer is, but to state this bottle is worthless and I should not waste my time over this item is being commented with no knowledge of the area, or the history in mind.  If we have looters and thieves taking all items they can find, there will be no form of history to view for future generations of the present public nor the indigenous people that inhabited the area long before we were here.


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## antlerman23 (Feb 28, 2014)

I like the path this thread has taken! []I was upset at this guy from the start. What a waste of time and money [:'(][]


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## antlerman23 (Feb 28, 2014)

what kind of history does a 50 year old bottle hold? I bet the guy who tossed it is still alive!!!if it were old, then I would get it. but this is just trash.


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## cbeehner (Feb 28, 2014)

Bottles r LEET said:
			
		

> What are you going to do to this 'thief'? Fine him like 3 cents?



The fine will be much more substantial than 3 cents.  It is a misdameanor crime, which can carry heavy fines (especially since its involving archaeological items), and it can also carry time in a county jail.  If any body else has some good websites with information regarding the age of this bottle I would appreciate any help. Thank you epgeorge for the website link.  It was very useful in beginning research.


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## Bottles r LEET (Feb 28, 2014)

I bet the state of California has 50 year old cars sitting out in the woods, why don't you go rescue them as well?


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## hemihampton (Feb 28, 2014)

I have a Question, Was this area marked with a sign saying Archaeological Area?


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## cbeehner (Feb 28, 2014)

Ok, so obviously the reason for the original post is getting abused.  I posted my inquiry on the website in order to obtain more knowledge of the item I found with two subjects who were removing it from an archaeological site.  For those who do not respect my decision to obtain more information because they believe its a waste of time, then I respect your reasoning, I do it everyday to the general public I meet.  However, I ask that you respect the fact that I am doing my job in trying to apprehend criminals that are violating laws, however you feel those laws should be addressed. No signs were placed.  That would defeat the purpose of it being an archaeological site.  We dont want to advertise there is a site in the area as it would promote looting.


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## antlerman23 (Feb 28, 2014)

The "archeological artifact" that these people removed holds no history, value, or importance to anyone. Honestly, persecuting someone for picking this up is like arresting me for picking up my gum wrapper i dropped. Since the site was unmarked, how were they to know that they arent allowed to pick up garbage in there?! If you can show me a shred of historical importance that this bottle holds, i will shut up and gtfo. I will honestly be impressed if you can. This bottle's only true value is in being recycled and made into a new bottle. Maybe if you ask the "offenders" nicely, they will put that piece of garbage back exactly where it came from. But then you would probably arest them for littering...


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## cbeehner (Feb 28, 2014)

The historical importance of this bottle is based on other finds in the immediate area and surrounding geographical areas.  It shows historical importance to archeologists, geologists, biologists and the indigenous people of the area who wish not to have the objects of their and our past be removed from the area of known sites.  Items such as the bottle, show that the area was inhibited, and will give us a better understanding of who lived there, how long, and how they lived.  Just like any archeological site. By having people take those items it limits the amount of knowledge we can collect and gather from our history.  As I stated earlier, the bottle may not have little if any monetary value, but there is a historical value.  Such as the subject who rolled the rock down from a national park with the boy scouts.  No monetary value but it had historical geological value did it not?  And that is why the federal government is in the process of arrangement and restitution.   I'm not saying that this bottle is an archeological artifact.  But taking the bottle from the location where it has been for 80, 50, 20 plus years, means takeing its history and our history with it.


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## cordilleran (Feb 28, 2014)

Let the Oppression Games begin!


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## antlerman23 (Feb 28, 2014)

Bravo... that was a well articulated answer.it did not sway me in the least, but it sounded good.The problem is that an "archaeological site dating back to 1952" sounds fucking hilarious.its just a ridiculous idea to think that 1950s refuse is considered "Historically important".sure it shows that people were there, but so what? I just don't get it.


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 28, 2014)

> No signs were placed.  That would defeat the purpose of it being an archaeological site.  We dont want to advertise there is a site in the area as it would promote looting.


If it's not posted, how can you call it looting. Was it fenced in? Who but the authorized personnel could know? Was it one of them? Hmmm, conspiracies, I like those!!!! Again, I think the law should have been from the time it was enacted, not from every day henceforth.Although..., in this age of recycling, that bottle in your hand may be rare in 50 years.[8|] 





> I was rather informing you the reader of the law that I am required by law proceed in prosecuting, considering it was at least a Misdemeanor committed in my presence.


I never thought I'd say this but I'm glad I live in MA. At least here we have things called warnings, both verbal and written.


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## andy volkerts (Mar 1, 2014)

Jeez!!  another example of a law being carried to extremely stupid conclusions. site not posted, but is an archeological site just the same, and we all should know that by a piece of crap junk 1940s bottle.  Only in California and Oregon is this stupidity carried out with amazing regularity. Its too bad we cannot remove these stupid laws..........


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## zecritr (Mar 1, 2014)

I collect lots of things from the 1950's,that is history,The korean war was in the 50's,guess what HISTORY,some here may think the bottle isn't history well that's okay but to demean other people for thinking it is........I don't know all the facts of the case but i have to agree if no signs or other sign that it is a archaeological site would make the case to me very iffy but then again......Hope you get all the info needed sounds like your doing a good and consciencess job. Someone who collects ketchup bottles might like it for the timeline of the company or the bottles etc. etc. Peace


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## epgorge (Mar 1, 2014)

Admin said:
			
		

> *This is a great topic but has the potential to result in acrimonious debate so I would ask Members to keep the emotion out of their posts as much as they can.* *The poster is a State Peace Officer doing what his superiors have told them to do, they did not make the law they are doing their job. Debate the law for sure but please don't personalize it.*


Thank you! A good perspective. To the dissenters, do remember this is the left coast; of California.Joel


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## surfaceone (Mar 1, 2014)

cbeehner said:
			
		

> I'm unable to post pics of the bottle at this time, due to it being processed for evidence.  There are two seems that go down the length of the bottle and from what I remember they go through the bottle cap twists.  The laws are written with the intent to prosecute those who steal items of historical interests for the state, and as a State Peace Officer I will enforce those laws.  I happen to work for the state of California and per Title 14 CCR 4308 - it states no one shall remove items from a archaeological area.  And department heads and the district attorney, have stated anything older than 50 years is deemed historical and therefore archaeological per CCR 4308...


 Hello Officer Beehner, I understand your difficult position. I do not believe you have a good case, as this bottle cannot be precisely dated. This form has been used a long while, and is still in use today.  I question the supposed archeological and historical signifigance of this item. What possible insight can be gained from an old vinegar bottle. Are you sure the person in custody was not policing up the area? Broken glass and trash glass have the potential to injure hikers and the unwary. Trash removal should not be criminal. I assume we are speaking of California State Park land. Are you aware of the many hundreds of objects that have been picked up from the bottom of Folsom Lake, now that the drought has revealed the former towns and encampments there? Certainly, in the case of Folsom Lake, there were posted warnings, but *conspicuously absent enforcement*. Perhaps this was due to the large crowds of visitors / miscreants who came to see some actual history revealed. Something is wrong with the law, that puts a higher "value" on a worthless (from a monetary, collector, or historical perspective) vinegar bottle, than the freedom and good name of one of it's citizens. This vinegar bottle is modern. It is not historic, in any sense of the word. What could possibly be "learned" by anyone from this empty bottle? Had I found it, I would have moved it to the nearest recycling, or trash depository. Does it make more sense to prosecute a citizen for picking up modern trash from a State Park and an "alleged" historic site, than to repatriate the bottle into the hands of the State Archeologist who values it so highly. Said archeologist is certain to catalog it and put it in a box, never to be seen again, but the cataloging and warehousing fees will be borne by the hapless citizens of California. This is a wonderful example of misguided laws creating a dubious No Win / No Win contretemps. I am sorry that you have to waste your time on a misguided matter such as this.


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## epgorge (Mar 1, 2014)

zecritr said:
			
		

> I collect lots of things from the 1950's,that is history,The korean war was in the 50's,guess what HISTORY,some here may think the bottle isn't history well that's okay but to demean other people for thinking it is........I don't know all the facts of the case but i have to agree if no signs or other sign that it is a archaeological site would make the case to me very iffy but then again......Hope you get all the info needed sounds like your doing a good and consciencess job. Someone who collects ketchup bottles might like it for the timeline of the company or the bottles etc. etc. Peace


I think what he is saying is everything is historical, eventually, California has a 50 year rule on uncovering or digging for "artifacts". Eventually, in say, 2917, even plastic containers will be considered "artifacts". That is the way laws go in California. Fortunately for the rest of us, most State governments don't emulate California's laws. They are extreme. Home of Nancy Pelosi and her anti gun regiment. Another reason why it is imperative to get involved with legislation before it is enacted into law. But, most people are too busy or don't want to bother getting involved with legislative initiatives.Joel


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## epgorge (Mar 1, 2014)

Regardless, of anyone "feelings" about whether this is right or wrong for California to have a law like this, it is their law. Again, that bottle should be able to be dated by the twists in the threads at the top of the bottle. The morphology of the industry makes that clear and we can all be thankful to Bill Lindsey for making that more possible with his intense research into that morphology at: http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm.Thank you Bill, you have helped me to better understand my hobby.Joel


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 1, 2014)

> Eventually, in say, 2917, even plastic containers will be considered "artifacts".


I suspect by then "plastic" will have been obsolete for centuries, at least petroleum based plastics. [][][]Therefor they will be very historical in nature.


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## surfaceone (Mar 1, 2014)

epgorge said:
			
		

> Again, that bottle should be able to be dated by the twists in the threads at the top of the bottle. The morphology of the industry makes that clear and we can all be thankful to Bill Lindsey for making that more possible with his intense research into that morphology at: http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm...


 Uh, Joel, I think even Bill Lindsey would be sorely taxed to date this bottle precisely. Certainly it is post 1920, but precisely dating it by the continuous screw thread, I believe, is an impossibly tall order. Perhaps you can prove me wrong...


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## hemihampton (Mar 1, 2014)

I have the Solution to this problem ever taking place in the Future. What you do is Post many signs around the Perimeter of this Archeological site stating "THIS IS A ARCHEOLOGICAL SITE. NO DIGGING OR REMOVAL OF ANY ARCHEOLOGICAL ARTIFACTS  PERMITTED. UNLESS YOU ARE A CERTIFIED ARCHEOLOGIST, GEOLOGIST, OR BIOLOGIST GIVIN PERMISSION BY THE STATE"  Then for a extra protection measure (optional I might add but fullproof) is you get a 100 foot tall Guard Tower (kinda like the forrest ranger towers or state prisons) & Put a Park Ranger in there 24/7 to overlook the Archeological site for looters & tresspassers. There, Problem solved, how easy was that. Why do I gotta think of everything. The State of California can't figure this out by themselves. It would take the state of California a million $  dollar survey & think tank to come up with the same solution I came up with in 2 minutes for free. Your Wecome. I think the 74 on bottom Dates it to 1974. Therefore less then 50 years old.


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## sunrunner (Mar 1, 2014)

looks like 1965 to me.


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## cordilleran (Mar 1, 2014)

This is what you voted for; expect the heat to increase. Remember me? I was saying this five years ago...


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## epgorge (Mar 2, 2014)

surfaceone said:
			
		

> epgorge said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Exthttp://www.sha.org/bottle...adedating.htm#Question 1* *You will need to go down the page to threaded tops**2er* *Gonal (continuous) screw threads on a Heinz™ catsup bottle **Go about three quarters page down to find threaded dating.*


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## epgorge (Mar 2, 2014)

You will need to go down that page about three quarters of the way down to the threaded top section.


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## Digswithstick (Mar 2, 2014)

Was said artifact on top of ground or dug up ,and was it on state land ? Seems it  is ok to pick up or dig 49 year old bottles ,but prison sentence for 51 year old bottle .Hope this site will not become vehicle for guilt or innocence of collectors or diggers.Agree with others ,no way  can exact year of manufacture be proven.All this acomplishes is widening the rift between archies and collectors,just my opinion.


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## surfaceone (Mar 2, 2014)

epgorge said:
			
		

> You will need to go down that page about three quarters of the way down to the threaded top section.




Yes, Joel, I'm familiar with the SHA site. Bill said, "*B. External ("screw") thread finish* - The bottle you have has external screw threads - which are usually either continuous or non-continuous or variations on these themes.  Most all types of machine-made bottles with external screw threads date from the late 1920s or after, though some types - like catsup bottles - were commonly screw-threaded from the beginning of machine manufacture in the early 1910s." How does this prove anything in the way of dating the bottle in question? It merely sets a bottom parameter date wise. In my opinion, Officer Beehner's evidentiary bottle cannot be dated with any kind of accuracy. His claims that the bottle has "value" to the State of California, indigenous peoples and "historic" former residents of the area, based solely on it's age, cannot be supported either, again, in my opinion. It is a shame that our rights, and personal freedoms have been eroded by misguided legislation of this type. The California State legislature has been legislating non-stop since 1850. When will the citizens of California stand up, grab their electoral bottle of White Out, and start amending the reams of paper laws that have altered their lives for the worse? 



​​


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## epgorge (Mar 2, 2014)

Even if the bottle were made in 1960 it would be fifty years old. The bottom mark may well be 1974. If I needed a defense that would be it. or, for the State to prove it were made later. The State needs to prove it is fifty years old if it is to go to court case. That may be tough? Yes! That is not a recently produced or modern bottle, as the threads on the top tell me. I agree government is on a run away path to total control. The sheeple just keep asking for more and more regulation. In Southern California especially. I think that is why the north wants to separate and form their own State. I am a Libertarian. Ran for Governor here on that ticket. I was sincerely telling the officer where he could go to attempt to prove age. Again, Bill Lindsey's sight is the best to do that. This particular cyber thread has turned more into a voicing of discontent with government rather than sharing our knowledge with others. That is what I always found valuable in Roger's sight. The officer is tasking a job. I do understand peoples emotions about this issue. That is why I always ask permission to dig. This is just my opinion and I apologize if I have upset anyone. Joel


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## Bottles r LEET (Mar 2, 2014)

Based on the fact that nobody can prove the exact age of the bottle, I think your case should be dropped.


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 2, 2014)

I lost track. Was it determined this was machine made?Lets start over.[]


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## epackage (Mar 2, 2014)

"Officer" Beehner is only following orders, just like the guards at Nazi internment camps, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Helping him is like calling the cops on your neighbor instead of just knocking on his door and asking him to turn the music down, I wish his post would be deleted and he should be banned from the forum. We're not here to put people in jail, we're here to TALK AND SHARE BOTTLES. *I'm disgusted with Roger for allowing this post to remain here!!! Your losing me as a user of this forum if this crap continues....* *I hate saying that Roger because you know I put in alot of time and efort to help others on this forum over the years, and I like you and have great respect for what you have built, but this crosses the line and seems to go against the idea behind what you created here... Jim*


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## Plumbata (Mar 2, 2014)

epackage said:
			
		

> "Officer" Beehner is only following orders, just like the guards at Nazi internment camps, he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Helping him is like calling the cops on your neighbor instead of just knocking on his door and asking him to turn the music down, I wish his post would be deleted and he should be banned from the forum. We're not here to put people in jail, we're here to TALK AND SHARE BOTTLES. *I'm disgusted with Roger for allowing this post to remain here!!! Your losing me as a user of this forum if this crap continues....* *I hate saying that Roger because you know I put in alot of time and efort to help others on this forum over the years, and I like you and have great respect for what you have built, but this crosses the line and seems to go against the idea behind what you created here... Jim*



 This is why I stopped being a self-righteous liberal. Freedom of speech, expression and inquiry is not restricted only to those one agrees with. The common tactic of equating that which one finds distasteful with Nazis, the KKK, Antisemitism or other discussion-terminating and emotionally charged straw-men is itself a blatant form of bigotry, as is the demand that those discussions or individuals deemed distasteful but perfectly legal and protected be banished and forever excluded. I used to drink that kool-aid, but then I extricated my head from my arse. I don't agree at all that people should be prosecuted for cleaning trash from the landscape and temporarily holding a garbage bottle before depositing it in the recycling bin (hint hint lol), but neither should such discussions be stifled in anger and disgust. The latter will accomplish nothing.


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## epackage (Mar 2, 2014)

Plumbata said:
			
		

> This is why I stopped being a self-righteous liberal. Freedom of speech, expression and inquiry is not restricted only to those one agrees with. The common tactic of equating that which one finds distasteful with Nazis, the KKK, Antisemitism or other discussion-terminating and emotionally charged straw-men is itself a blatant form of bigotry, as is the demand that those discussions or individuals deemed distasteful but perfectly legal and protected be banished and forever excluded. I used to drink that kool-aid, but then I extricated my head from my arse. I don't agree at all that people should be prosecuted for cleaning trash from the landscape and temporarily holding a garbage bottle before depositing it in the recycling bin (hint hint lol), but neither should such discussions be stifled in anger and disgust. The latter will accomplish nothing.


Sorry you feel that way Plumb, but if this site is now gonna become "Rat Central" it disgusts me, you can all enjoy it because I'm jumping ship. The site has gone in the crapper if we're all gonna sit here and help out the "cops" try and fine and/or jail people for removing bottles that belong in recycling bins. Maybe one too many beers as usual for you huh?


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## epackage (Mar 2, 2014)

Last post on this forum, I hope those of you who disagree with helping out the cops screw someone for picking up trash from and unmarked site decide to complain to Roger. This scumbag isn't here to discuss bottles, which Plumb can't seem to grasp, he's just here to screw someone because it's "his job". There's a big difference in what those of you who disagree with this guys posts and tactics feel and a bottle discussion that these pages were meant for. You all know you can find me on the Facebook bottle collecting pages or the NJ bottle forum, this place is now officailly for Nazi's and guys like Plumb who want to give the Nazi's free reign after drinking 14-16 beers and turning on his computer.... See you in the funny papers


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## Plumbata (Mar 2, 2014)

epackage said:
			
		

> Sorry you feel that way Plumb, but if this site is now gonna become "Rat Central" it disgusts me, you can all enjoy it because I'm jumping ship. The site has gone in the crapper if we're all gonna sit here and help out the "cops" try and fine and/or jail people for removing bottles that belong in recycling bins. Maybe one too many beers as usual for you huh?



 I fail to see how a *singular* thread discussing the age of a bottle in the context of this most unfortunate law, out of a body of many many thousands of threads here, now qualifies this *entire* website to be considered anything remotely resembling a "Rat Central". I also fail to see how your concept of the activity in this singular thread supports the generalized and grossly inaccurate statement "...*we're all* gonna sit here and help out the cops...", seeing how only a few people actually contributed directly to the topic at hand. You might not like the topic; I sure as hell don't, but to abandon the forum because of it, especially advertising the threat, is patently childish. Be the big man you are and deal with it patiently like the rest of us.  And no, I'm completely and utterly sober, but considering the anger issues you are experiencing, a few brews might be just what the doctor ordered on your end. Chill out and let the crap slide man. If you want to actually accomplish any lasting good, then try educating those who need it, not spouting emotional condemnations and offering zero viable solutions. It doesn't win any credibility points with me or anyone else.


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## Plumbata (Mar 2, 2014)

epackage said:
			
		

> this place is now officailly for Nazi's and guys like Plumb who want to give the Nazi's free reign after drinking 14-16 beers and turning on his computer.... See you in the funny papers




Wow. As I said before, it is a sad state of affairs when those of the dominant political ideology in this country blindly resort to such inappropriate and discussion-killing straw-man tactics because the core substance of their positions cannot withstand the burden of scrutiny and fair argument, and as such they must resort to distractions and inaccurate insults in order to leave with a sense of accomplishment, regardless of how false it is. Funny as it is, I ain't even mad. I'm just thanking my lucky stars that I'm this cogent and calm in the face of such egregious idiocy (including the California law...) at my current age and station in life. Some people will just never get it. Not my problem I guess.


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## RIBottleguy (Mar 2, 2014)

Hi Chris,I would firstly like to suggest that you find a bottle collector from CA to talk to in person.  Asking anonymous people online to help incriminate someone is completely unprofessional, and the case would quickly be thrown out in court. Your determination to uphold the law to the letter is admirable, but unrealistic.  Charging this person with a misdemeanor is almost the same as giving a speeding ticket to someone going 31 mph in a 30 mph zone.  Worry about the real criminals, and just give this person a stern warning.


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## diggerdirect (Mar 2, 2014)

RIBottleguy said:
			
		

> Hi Chris,I would firstly like to suggest that you find a bottle collector from CA to talk to in person.  Asking anonymous people online to help incriminate someone is completely unprofessional, and the case would quickly be thrown out in court. Your determination to uphold the law to the letter is admirable, but unrealistic.  Charging this person with a misdemeanor is almost the same as giving a speeding ticket to someone going 31 mph in a 30 mph zone.  Worry about the real criminals, and just give this person a stern warning.



Very well said, It is a shame common sense cannot be integrated into certain aspects of society where it is sadly lacking. Punishment should fit the crime, and in this case a warning would appear to be more thanadequate.


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 3, 2014)

Leave the post and someone will be mad, delete it and someone will be mad. Sounds like a lose/lose situation. What happened to the days when everyone was mad if any type of censoring was done by any moderator? []


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## epgorge (Mar 3, 2014)

cowseatmaize said:
			
		

> Leave the post and someone will be mad, delete it and someone will be mad. Sounds like a lose/lose situation. What happened to the days when everyone was mad if any type of censoring was done by any moderator? []


[]


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## hemihampton (Mar 3, 2014)

You can keep some of the people happy some of the time but you can't keep all the people happy all of the time.[]


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## goodman1966 (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm relatively new here, but my opinion is you have no case officer. Everyone's opinion is valued, and try not to take all of them to heart. I may get into some trouble for this but...  Even the best manners are strained by pride!----From an 1872 newspaper.   Mitch


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## Bottles r LEET (Mar 4, 2014)

I think the best option is to give California back to Mexico. [attachment=anti_california_gi...2202_wio57_324.jpg]


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## T hunter (Mar 15, 2014)

Great to see California law enforcement is making a difference in this criminal industry.An item of this quality should be in a museum and the felon prosecuted to the full extent of the law.Being aware of the overcrowding in the states prison system perhaps a current inmate could be pardoned.Maybe a child molester or thrill killer anyone less dangerous to the world population than this bottle minded maniac!This type of crime must not be tolerated


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## glass man (Mar 15, 2014)

It is amazing how it becomes important all of  a sudden when it has been taken out of the ground..other wise   the item would never been seen or cared about by "HISTORICAL PEOPLE" MAN it would be a drag to go to jail over a 50 cent bottle just because it was over 50 years old ..or even 100 years old...bottle diggers should be thanked for digging up the past and they take care not to damage any thing...if it was left up to just "HISTORICAL PEOPLE"  so very many item would never see the light of day...why don't they dig up the privies or dumps if they care so much..are they  just lazy or will only do it if they get pad to do???If that is the case they don't really care all at much do they? I am in no way knocking the POLICEMAN for doing his job...just knocking the people behind it all..what a waste of man/woman power and money!!That should be a crime with in  itself!! JAMIE


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## RED Matthews (Mar 24, 2014)

Seams on the threads - tell us it is a machine made product and junk.  RED M.


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## Graystroke (Feb 11, 2016)

Hello!  

I'm new to this website, my first post.  I found this site by Googling: *W.J. Latchford Glass Co.*  -  This thread came up in the results.  This is hilarious - First, I want to thank *cbeehner *for this thread.  Turns out the bottle in question is the same as the one I was trying to research.  Thanks also to *glassman *for identifying the type of container and approximate age.  

I am a real estate agent in San Francisco, Calif.....and I've been clearing two vacant lots in preparation for selling.  These lots have been sitting empty since.......forever!  No structures were ever built.  So besides being overgrown with trees, bushes, etc.....there has been a lot of stuff, garbage....and glass bottles...though mostly broken.  BUT....I have found some interesting bottles still intact!  One of which is a bottle like the one mentioned here, but the numbered markings above and below the logo on the bottom of the bottle are 74 (above) and 5 (below).  Also, on the base of the bottle, just above the mold seam there is the Circle L logo of the manufacturer and the number 6.  

That's all for the moment. I'll post again soon, I have one bottle I've been researching.  It's an Owens Illinois post prohibition bottle.  Thanks! 

Gray


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