# Old Rum Bottle find pre1700?



## shunyadragon (May 10, 2018)

This bottle was found in the tidal flat of the sound west of Jockey's Ridge in the Outer Banks of North Carolina. I was mapping wetlands as a Soil Scientist/Geologist.

It had oyster shells growing on it. No marks, irregular shape with no mold marks, concave bottom likely hand blown.


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## RCO (May 10, 2018)

I'm really not sure how you would date it , pre 1700 would be really old in my view , although there was a lot of ships in that area and some settlement along the coast , being that it was found without anything else nearby makes it even harder to try and date


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## hemihampton (May 10, 2018)

Looks old but I'm not sure about pre 1700? LEON.


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## CanadianBottles (May 10, 2018)

I have my doubts that it's pre-1700 but it's definitely an early one.  Nice find!


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## shunyadragon (May 10, 2018)

I consider this bottle deposited in a storm from hurricanes deposited in the backwater tidal flats of the sound on the west side of the barrier islands. I often found various debris in these tidal flats. I was sort of hoping to get some dating ranges based on the design.


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## Old Wiltshire (May 10, 2018)

-

If English then it is a typical 1790-1810 free blown beer/porter/wine type.
I would recommend a visit to the site linked below when trying to identify and date bottles.

https://sha.org/bottle/index.htm

​


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## shunyadragon (May 11, 2018)

Old Wiltshire said:


> -
> 
> If English then it is a typical 1790-1810 free blown beer/porter/wine type.
> I would recommend a visit to the site linked below when trying to identify and date bottles.
> ...



Based on the information from this site this a 'Mallet' style liquor bottle as described on the site.






English/European "mallet" style liquor bottle - This (left bottle) is another early bottle that pre-dates the general coverage of this website; it is also of English or continental European origin but is a type that is sometimes found in the New World at some of the earliest settlement areas.  It is referred to as "mallet" style as it resembles a mallet, I guess.  This bottle dates from sometime between about 1730 and 1780 (McKearin & Wilson 1978), was free-blown and has a large glass tipped pontil scar within the high kick-up base; click base view to see such.

Thank you for the reference!!!


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## nhpharm (May 11, 2018)

The lip finish and shape of the bottle indicate to me 1800-1840 or so.


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## Harry Pristis (May 11, 2018)

shunyadragon said:


> Based on the information from this site this a 'Mallet' style liquor bottle as described on the site.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the image and caption above are from sha.org, the info there on early glass is less reliable than I thought.  The bottle on the left is NOT a mallet, it is a squat cylinder.  The bottle on the RIGHT is almost certainly a mallet, though a late example, say from the 1760s.

The bottle in question appears to be a squat cylinder, probably an early one. I would like to see other images of the bottle -- the bottom and the bottle and particularly the lip in profile.

It is actually a base-diameter to body-height ratio which is the key to distinguishing mallets from squat cylinders, according to Roger Dumbrell in his book, UNDERSTANDING ANTIQUE WINE BOTTLES.


Here's what Dumbrell says in his book:  "...mallet wine bottles have broad bases,  considerably exceeding their body height [height to the start of the curve of the shoulder].  Conversely, the squat cylindrical bottle invariably has a body height greater than its base diameter."


That is:
It is a mallet when the body height to the shoulder divided by the diameter of the base gives an number of less than one.

It is a squat cylinder when the body height divided by the diameter of the base gives an answer greater than one.


Dumbrell does not use the term "transitional mallet," but we could infer that:
It is a "transitional mallet" when the body height divided by the diameter of the base gives an answer of about one.


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## southern Maine diver (May 11, 2018)

Harry Pritis... you got it nailed!   I think a lot of collectors throw that particular style bottle into to English "Mallet" category. I have been guilty of that myself.  Thank you for the lesson in black glass Mallets and Squats...


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## shunyadragon (May 11, 2018)

My bottle is very lopsided at the base. The height varies from 4.00 to 4.35. The base is 3.75. The average ratio is 1.113


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## shunyadragon (May 13, 2018)

I referenced this thread that gave criteria for Dutch vs English bottles of this type:
https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?312339-English-Black-Glass-or-Dutch

My bottle has a small relatively small pointed pontil and has a distinct greenish tint as described for Dutch bottles.


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## NC btl-dvr (May 15, 2018)

I would also put this in the 1800's, probably mid 1800 due to the lip finish.
Jay


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## shunyadragon (May 15, 2018)

NC btl-dvr said:


> I would also put this in the 1800's, probably mid 1800 due to the lip finish.
> Jay



I am still looking at different references. All I have fairly conclusively determined is that it is after 1760.

Do you have a reference that describes the different lip finishes?


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## Harry Pristis (May 15, 2018)

shunyadragon said:


> I am still looking at different references. All I have fairly conclusively determined is that it is after 1760.
> 
> Do you have a reference that describes the different lip finishes?






I wish you would post a profile image of the bottle, a close-up of the lip finish, and an image of the pontil-scar.  You are much more likely to get a reliable ID if you will do so.  For comparison:


  *[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]*


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## saratogadriver (May 16, 2018)

Hard to tell from the angle on the one picture of the bottle, but it looks to me like that lip is going to be somewhere in the 1790-1810 range on the illustration of lip forms.    If that illustration is definitive, it's an earlier bottle than 1820.     Nice!


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## Patrich1969 (May 16, 2018)

Mid 18th century,probably used by a mariner,sailor to pass away his time at sea? If it could only talk! You should keep info about it,with it,When and where you found it,Very nice find.


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## willieboy (May 16, 2018)

Based on coins we found with similar bottles in Charleston, SC I would guess 1820 +/- 10 years.  We found Spanish coins dating back to the 1780's and US coins from the first and second decade of the 1800's.  Nice piece, I would have left the oysters on it.


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## kenaifrank (May 16, 2018)

What a sweet find.


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## kenaifrank (May 16, 2018)

What a sweet find.  it will have a very special meaning for you.


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## shunyadragon (May 16, 2018)

Harry Pristis said:


> I wish you would post a profile image of the bottle, a close-up of the lip finish, and an image of the pontil-scar.  You are much more likely to get a reliable ID if you will do so.  For comparison:
> 
> View attachment 182963 View attachment 182964 View attachment 182965*[SUB][/SUB]*



I will include more pictures but one distinct difference from all of the above is that the opening had a ground concave inner lip. Other that that it most resembles the 1790-1800 opening, in part because of the narrower sloping top lip


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## shunyadragon (May 16, 2018)

kenaifrank said:


> What a sweet find.  it will have a very special meaning for you.



It is my only real old bottle, The oyster shells and shelly sand fell off when I was washing it. I kept that way without cleaning it


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## Bottlehog (May 18, 2018)

Thanks, Harry for sharing Dumbrell's definitive referent standard: "A true '*mallet*' has a shoulder to base diameter of less than one, A '*squat*' cylinder has a ratio of greater than one."

Of course, I always repose in the wise words of a professor emeritus of Educational Philosophy (Policy Studies) whose presence--when he was able--occasionally graced my doctoral course of study, "The final word on _anything _is never in." (He happened to be an ordained Methodist minister, but clearly possessed a relativist weltanschauung).


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## shunyadragon (May 19, 2018)

I agree that my bottle is a 'squat cylinder' or 'transitional mallet' and not a true Mallet.


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## shunyadragon (May 20, 2018)

The following are more detail on the bottle. It coated and weathered, but definitely very green. Note: unlike the examples in references the inner lip on this bottle is ground concave and the top lip is narrow. The bottle is very lopsided about 1/4 inch.

The pontil is very small and the bottom is cone shaped.


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## Harry Pristis (May 20, 2018)

Bottlehog said:


> Thanks, Harry for sharing Dumbrell's definitive referent standard: "A true '*mallet*' has a shoulder to base diameter of less than one, A '*squat*' cylinder has a ratio of greater than one."
> 
> Of course, I always repose in the wise words of a professor emeritus of Educational Philosophy (Policy Studies) whose presence--when he was able--occasionally graced my doctoral course of study, "The final word on _anything _is never in." (He happened to be an ordained Methodist minister, but clearly possessed a relativist weltanschauung).




The exchange of technical information depends on widely-accepted definitions.  Dumbrell's system for categorizing these early bottles may not be the "final word," but it does nicely fit what we see.  His system provides a way to exchange information, to describe the bottles we encounter.  No one MUST adopt Dumbrell's system; but, being aware of it will improve communication with other advanced collectors.  

None of these bottles is a "mallet" according to Dumbrell's definition:
*[SUB][SUP]

[/SUP][/SUB]*But this one is a mallet:
*[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]*


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## shunyadragon (May 20, 2018)

More detail on tip of bottle:

View attachment 182991View attachment 182992


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## shunyadragon (May 20, 2018)

Harry Pristis said:


> The exchange of technical information depends on widely-accepted definitions.  Dumbrell's system for categorizing these early bottles may not be the "final word," but it does nicely fit what we see.  His system provides a way to exchange information, to describe the bottles we encounter.  No one MUST adopt Dumbrell's system; but, being aware of it will improve communication with other advanced collectors.
> 
> None of these bottles is a "mallet" according to Dumbrell's definition:
> View attachment 182989But this one is a mallet:
> View attachment 182990



Good pictures and examples. Of course, mine is not a Mallet. It is a Squat cylinder, or transitional Mallet.


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## Harry Pristis (May 20, 2018)

shunyadragon said:


> The following are more detail on the bottle. It coated and weathered, but definitely very green. Note unlike the examples in references the inner lip on this bottle is ground concave and the top lip is narrow. The bottle is very lopsided about 1/4 inch.
> 
> The pontil is very small and the bottom is cone shaped.





Nice find.  I'd say you have an English squat cylinder from around 1800.  The pontil scar is called a "sand pontil," though the grit may be bits of ground glass rather than sand.  Nothing else on the bottle has been ground except by wave or current action in the water.
You can clean up the bottle with an acid bath, common acids like vinegar (slow-working) to muriatic acid (much faster).  Expect some glass erosion to remain -- acid can't heal scratches and decomposition (sickness) of the glass.
All-in-all, a nice souvenir of your hunt.


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