# PLEASE HELP! NOT A WAR TIME 7UP?



## bamascavenger (May 31, 2008)

I have been informed by a fellow by the name of Charles...a seller on EBAY whom i have bought from before. Ebay name = BOTTLEMAN57  He says, That ALL 7ups even through the WAR had the orange red shield. just was able to fade more quickly. NO white bottles were ever made!! Now it gets interesting. Bill Lockharts article in The SODAFIZZ says they do exist. Bill has provided me with a photo. But is there any REAL DOCUMENTATION from the bottlers, Librarys etc.. to which we can turn to? This bottle evidently had the RED it was just removed!! Live and learn. Still a nice bottle though. I do not wish to make anyone mad on this issue, but, who do you believe and where are the facts and the fiction and how do you separate fact from fiction when you do not have any facts, just someones word that they exist and another says they do not? Was I ripped off by a seller? The only info i had to go on was from the SODAFIZZ that these lost thier RED PIGMENTATION due to the war effort in 1942 till 1945! I like the magazine, I do not know Kathy nor Bill and i am not throwing mud. I want REAL answers and the truth. The truth will set you free! BOTTLEMAN57'S/CHARLES EMAIL address is; Thomascahoon@cableone.net and Bill Lockharts is; bottlebill@tularosa.net  Let us please make a joint effort to resolve this matter and update collectors, books, magazines and one another. Here is a link for a 1942 for sale and has the RED shield! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260246377131 
 Here is Charles' WAR 1942 6 OUNCE bottle he sold. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150251159520
 Here is a 1943 WAR TIME BOTTLE WITH THE RED ON IT.  So why is it not white? http://cgi.ebay.com/7-UP-7oz-Full-Soda-Pop-Bottle-McCook-Nebraska-FRESH-UP_W0QQitemZ310055271432QQihZ021QQcategoryZ13915QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


 Thank you in advance, Terry


----------



## arthur (May 31, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

hey i'm interested. how much arthur


----------



## bamascavenger (May 31, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

Sorry Arthur, It is not for sale. This one just completed a missing spot in my growing variations of my 7up collection. Also the different phrases on the rear, I have many, but i am missing just 2 more to complete my 1935 to 1950 set. Looking for the phrase, 1. A COOLER OFF A FRESHER UP.....YOU LIKE 7UP/ IT LIKES YOU. 2. TAKES THE OUCH OUT OF GROUCH. FOR HEAVENS SAKE DO NOT STIR OR SHAKE. anyone have these? Thank you for the offer though, Arthur.


----------



## TX Big Chief (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

I have bought bottles from Bottleman 57 too and I respect his opinion.However,
 this Detroit 7 UP bottle is dated 1943 and I find it hard to believe the red orange paint disappeared from it.I think it was white to begin with.THis bottle only has 7 bubbles and the one Bama Scavenger posted had 8 bubbles.I always thought that
 7 Up changed to 7 bubbles in 1938.I guess not.Does anyone know when the change was made to 7 bubbles? Since one bottle is from Flint and the other from Detroit maybe the white label is a Michigan thing.


----------



## TX Big Chief (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

Back of bottle above.


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

This is what I'd do.  [1] Look at the war time bottles in the Fizz. [1a] See if they're what I had. Meaning no. of bubbles and embossing on neck ect.   [2] Would I belive someone who studies this kinda stuff or [2a]someone who sells overpriced bottles. { I've seen bottleman57s stuff and it is way high in my opinion.} [3] I would have to ask myself  before I go any farther in this hobby "Will I need documention on every bottle before I buy it?" { I've allways been one to validate orgins of unmarked "expensive bottles". However I have never ask the seller to send me papers proving this.} [4] Deductive logic, again I would ask myself "Maybe I  have an earlier or latter version which has had the red to come off.". And that's what I'd do before I got all Mouldery and short of a revolution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H73qxeXWUs&feature=related


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

I have been questioning the missing red acl theory for a while now. Nearly every one of these supposed "white label only" bottles I have seen when you hold it at an angle and let the ligh play on them show a definate outline where the red part of the label should be. It really makes me wonder if the myth is actually real or collector legend. I have in my collection a 1944 7-up from the seven-up bottling company of Bristol, Tenn-VA, which would put it in the final two years of World War II, this bottle has a nice pretty red acl on it. Shouldn't this bottle be a white label only bottle? This makes me wonder, was this leaving off of the red acl widespread, or was this one or two bottle making companies doing which has lead to the belief that every 7-UP from around this era with acl damage is one of these?

  I hate to say it, but even in the two posted you can see what appears to be the top of a warn out acl shield between the 7-up and the top white line. If this isn't the phantom line of a missing acl then what is it? I personally avoid these "white label only" acls if they have the outline of the shield. I don't know what it is about the red acl that would make it wear off first or disolve, but I have a sneaking suspician that there has been a lot of bread made from damaged acl 7-ups due to this myth. All I can say is use your best judgement, who knows maybe I'm wrong, but I still wonder.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

Re: Bill Lockhart (for those who don't know who he is).  
 He's a professor (dean of some dept.) at the University int El Paso.  He holds a PhD. and is also a certified archaeologist and his data is used to identify and date digs.  He has basically, with what he calls his "Bottle Research Group" (or BRG),  re-written Toulouse's Bottle Mark book, correcting numerous mistakes as he goes.  (I am always impressed, and awed, by my author's accomplishments.)

 Re: bottleman57.   
 He's a seller on eBay.  

 Re: me...
 Like I tell everyone who I talk to about it - I just take what my authors send me and make it pretty (layout).   I give them all the credit because they are the ones that deserve it.

 My original purpose for the Soda Fizz  has not changed - sharing accurate information so everyone knows!

 After all, someone at a show pointed out once that the Soda Fizz is all we soda collectors really have - it must contain correct informaion (because it is used as a reference).   Plus, from what I am learning, a bunch of the members on this forum are members of either the PSBCA, FOHBC or both - which shows you want the same thing - accurate answers and information...  I am humbly proud to be a part of that.

 K

 Note: Edited original post to basically say what I intended for it to be in the first place, but it didn't seem to come out that way.  Hope this works better.  And for anyone who read the original one - perhaps after reading this version, you realize better what I had unsuccessfully been trying to say.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

After reading what everyone else said (while I was writing my epic), there are a couple or three (additional) comments I'd like to make.

 First of all, let me state that they (my comments) are speculation, because I have nothing to validate it with.  But, I am sure Bill (Lockhart) will search for the documentation for me....and clear this up for all of us - for once and for all, because that's the kind of guy he is.

 First if all - I agree with TX Big Chief.   The bottles I have, as far as I know and I can't look because they are in Tenn. and I am in N.C., the bottles I have with white only labels have no trace outline of anything to show where red may have been.  For this reason, I agree with him that I don't think mine ever had red.  (But, next trip to Tenn., I'll look to be sure.)

 Second, the first bottle had white only (The Gass Purifies), so why not revert to that during war time.  Makes sense.....

 Another thing that makes sense is perhaps sometimes red was available, and sometimes, it wasn't.   Also, perhaps some glass companies used it because they could get it, and maybe others couldn't.    Going thru a list of all "white-only" to see if location or glass house (as well as year manufactured) is consistent would indicate that.   Maybe some other bottlers were just trying to save money and realized the label worked just fine without red.  We have read much documentation that the bottle was the biggest expense in bottling and many went belly up over either not getting them back or because they couldn't afford new ones - so I can see where they'd try to save where they could if they were in financial trouble.

 The real question?  _ IF_ all Seven-Up bottles had the red, even during the war, then why did the red come off some and remain beautifully intact on others?   In the ones that have it, it even looks thick.  And there's been no bottles half-way off - they are either red, or they aren't.  If the red was wearing off, wouldn'we have some in evidence that were partway into wearing off to prove that's what is happening to them?   So, could the ones that have "outlines" of a red color have been done thinner than others, for whatever reason, and so, worn off easily?   And the last question I wonder about - if the red "disappears" so easily, why does the white remain so perfectly?

 Understanding the ACL process - the glass is painted while it is hot, so the color "bakes" into the glass (there's a word for it in glass making lingo, but I am not sure what it is - annealing or something like that).  When ACL first began, the bottle was made, then painted, then heated again (baked on) - why two and three color bottles cost so much.  Then, like anything else, a more automated system was devised that made it easier - putting the paint on when the glass was still hot, eliminating the process of reheating it after each color.   So, it doesn't seem like it was something that would just come off easily.   And I don't have any other bottles that I know of with any other color than red that is worn, or wearing, off.

 So - I suppose we are going to have to find someone that is still alive that worked at a glass house and  might remember how this was done (back in the mid-40s).  But who?   

 Lastly - One of the rumors I have heard - but cannot document or validate - is that when painted labels began, it was truly just painted on, without being heated afterwards.  The person who told me this said he had "both kinds" in his collection.   I have never seen an ACL that was simply just  "painted on" - in other words, you could fleck off the paint with a fingernail kind of thing (except for the newer commemorative Coke bottles - you can scratch off the paint on those - but they are not meant to be reused, going thru a bottle washer with boric acid, or whatever they used to clean them, then re-filled over and over again).   All mine, as best I can tell, are the "baked on" version.   So, here's one of my unproven tidbits - and being we are talking about this label thing anyway, I'd love to have comments from you on it.   (And no, I am not talking about those embossed bottles that someone has painted to make the embossing show up on their shelves.)  We all have at least one of those..........

 K


----------



## TX Big Chief (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

This is getting really interesting.In Bama Scavenger's original post he did not state
 the year the Flint Mich bottle was made(if known).That is why I asked the question about when 7UP changed from 8 bubbles to 7 bubbles.I suspect that the bottle was made before the war.If so,then the whole question of the red paint being hard to get because of the war does not apply.If the bottle was made in the 30s,then there would be no reason to avoid using red paint other than to save money on bottles.This theory depends on the year the number of bubbles were changed,
 so if was not in the 30s,when was it?


----------



## digger mcdirt (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

I have a mint solid white one that came out of a old trunk it has no fade never was red as I said mint. It is dated 1946 on bottom. So it missed the war by 1 year. It is from Jackson Tenn.


----------



## bamascavenger (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

NOTE: In answer to bgchief's question as to the date of the Flint bottle, It has a 3 for La. Plant, the owens symbol and  0 and a 1 below. Therefore, based on all i have read, this bottle would date 1940. Predating the WAR! Cannot be 1930 because as you know ACL did not come out until later, 1935? So, I got burned. not much money, but i think i have caused quite a problem and quite a bit of a good question now!
 Wow! Did I open up a can of worms. Lol. Like i said early on, I AM NOT SLINGING MUD, NOR RUNNING ANYONES NAME IN THE MUD. Please do not misunderstand me. I bought a bottle and apparently bought the wrong one. CHIEF, The bottle you are displaying, if you will look it shows an outline where the red use to be as mine does too! My bottle IS before WAR time years as the embossing and 8 bubbles stopped in 1940 or 41? The company wanted the bubbles to go inline with the name? Here below is part of a letter i got from BOTTLEMAN57 He says other bottlers did leave out the Red Pig such as RC and DOUBLE cola. He says 7UP kept the Red. My opinon now, If other companies took out the red for the war effort then i am pretty sure, The 7UP Company probably followed suit. Anyway, Thank you all for your input, advise time and trouble. This is VERY Interesting and I must state for the record that I have MORE faith in BILL LOCKHART than i do BOTTLEMAN!!! Here is BOTTLEMAN'S Letter;
 "I just told you what I think about the bottles, like you said, I have seen the RC Bottles with the red missing and showing the yellow only and I have seen a lot of Double Cola leaving just the white outline and even on the Orange Crush rib bottles white outline no orange. The red seems not to hold up at all, I have seem some that don't show any prove of an outline at all where the orange would have been. More so during the war times era. I have no documented information but I have read in a book that they took some of the pigment out of the color, you could just wipe it off with your hand if it was ever buried for any link of time, leaving the white outline in perfect condition. I just don't think no bottling plant made a white outline in the 7 up." "BOTTLEMAN57"


----------



## TX Big Chief (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

Bama I don't think you got burned or bought the wrong bottle.You got a
  8 bubble 7UP and raised some very interesting questions that turned into a very
 informative thread.I certainly learned a lot and expect to learn more before it is done.
 Now my opinion of the outline that does also show up quite well on the bottle
 I posted.I think if you used the same equipment you would use to print two colors and only printed with one color this outline might show up on the bottle.I think that outline is on all 7UP bottles under the red layer which overlays on the white layer and is added after the white layer.I work in a printing plant and each station adds a layer of a different color until the finished product has the right shades of each color.If you start with white and add nothing else there will be an outline where the other colors are supposed to be.Just my opinion,but I still think the red was never
 applied to these bottles.


----------



## madman (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

wow ! some great info here! hey terry  it is true the red paint doesnt hold up specialy in the ground, ive dug dozens of the embossed neck 7ups just to watch the paint flake off before my eyes, thats a cool bottle! nice early acl,  hmm is it possible to professionally repaint the red? anyway if ya look at it in the light youll see the ghosting, if it was painted red?if not cool bottle either way mike


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

It's possible that it has something to do with the process of applying acls, but I personally would like a bit more proof that this is the case. I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone to believe or not to believe in the white label only bottles, I am just questioning the explanation of this phenomenon. Not to belittle anyone or discredit anyone, but if we just become closed minded that this is the only possibility without looking at all possibilities or theories then the truth will never be discovered.

   Sorry Sodafizz, all due respect for you and your accomplishments, but you seemed to be disturbed that someone dared to question yourself or Bill Lockhart, and that struck me as really defensive and a bit closed minded. A scholar and researcher always questions his or her theories, and doen't explode when someone else questions them. Wise is the person who is flexible enough to listen to the theories of others, without dismissing their questions or ideas out of hand, no matter what their experience or degrees.


----------



## bamascavenger (Jun 2, 2008)

*RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!*

Thank you madman for your encouraging remarks! I truly appreciate it!
 Now for my EPIC!
 Kathy, 
 Bill and I have shared many emails together on this subject. I have shared with him BOTTLEMAN57'S views and I asked Bill to speak directly with BOTTLEMAN57. Bill is investigating the issue for me. I hope that you do not feel that i was trying to give Bill a bad name. It sure sounded like it in your post. Saying, And i quote, " I am embarrased for Bill and apologize for him." Why would you even make a statement like that. I was not questioning his AUTHORITY. Just merely asking questions as to some better validity to the white 7ups. In the articles of SODAFIZZ it showed no documentation that supported facts that all 7ups were white during those times. If you do not ask a question, then you do not ever know the answer. Not all of us out here are fortunate to be EXPERTS.
  You seem to have been trying to make me out to be some kind of fool and i take offense to that. I am just a collector, trying to buy or trade for items i do not have and i wish to have a accurate complete 7up one. As I have a very good start on my Coca cola's and Pepsi's. I too want the 7ups that way. I am sorry that i do not have the "expertise" that you keep throwing out there. We all know who you are where you started etc... I will humbly apologize to you and Bill if that will make you happy! Sorry if you feel that i was stepping on toes. I sure hit a sore spot with you that was very evident in your "epic" Please try not to be so Insouciant next time to us pee ons. My Best and regards to you and yours. Terry G. Vickers Retired LTC. US Army. 
  P.S. Sending my $25 dollars for a subscription to SODAFIZZ as i have done, does this make a person a member of the PSBCA? Also, when is the next issue due out?


----------



## bamascavenger (Jun 2, 2008)

DIGGER....PLEASE POST A PICTURE OF YOUR MINT BOTTLE FOR ALL OF US TO SEE AND ENVY!!!


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 3, 2008)

Oh god, I was afraid I'd make it worse, and that's just what I did.

 My reply was not defensive - it was simply intended to answer the first post where it said that he did not know me or Bill.  So, I attempted an introduction that appeared to be taken as an offensive tirade.  Definitely not my intention, nor do I think of myself as an expert at anything other than messing things up sometimes.  I do that quite well, enough so to qualify me as an expert (that and what I call my "blonde moments," something I seemed to be having last night quite well)...

 Second, I am not closed minded to anything.  I stated clearly that mistakes are identified and made public by printing them in the magazine because I want things to be accurate..  And, in my feeble attempt at a post, I was trying to say I wanted to dig up the answers and share them in the Soda Fizz, so everyone can know (many of my readers do not use computers and have only the Fizz to read).  It seems it came out as something else entirely.

 Nor did I mean to make anyone feel like a fool.   But I will admit bottleman is not one of my favorite sellers because, and anyone who knows me personally knows this, it is a pet peeve of mine for someone to put the wrong lids and soda in the bottles just because they think they'll sell for more.   I think I may have gotten a bottle or two from him in the past - and always asked him to open the bottle, pour out the soda and just send the bottle empty - because I don't want to pay for something unnecessarily.

 Also, re: sellers descriptions - all I look for is if it says where the bottle is from, bottling company info from the back or bottom of the bottle, size, and all that.  I could care less where they claim it came from.   And I, like probably about everyone, have been burned, more so in the beginning than now, but still - it happens.  It's one of the biggest reasons I started doing the Fizz.

 Third, if you notice the time of the "epic" - it was 3 or 4 am.....after a long day of chasing a 2-year-old and trying to get some work done in the process of the day.  Hubby was gone all last week giving seminars in Canada for his company and I was flying solo with a hyperactive preschooler that got even more hyper the day his daddy returned and he had a week's attention to catch up on.  Hilarious if you were here, but tiring.   Also, any of you who have met me in person might have realized I am a bit "blunt."   I try to keep a grip on it, because I know I come across that way without meaning to (and if you think I am blunt, you ought to meet my hubby).   I say what I think and sort it all out later, and sometimes it doesn't come out the way I want it to.   And I really need to stop sending emails and making posts at 4 am......I am clearly not at my best for anything like that.

 If you even meet me in person - you'll realize what I mean relatively easily - and also just as easily, realize I don't mean it the way it comes out.  Words on a computer screen lack emotion and expression - and that's where the real meaning can be cleared up.

 The second post after the "epic" was an attempt to soften that bluntness.  Apparently it was also unsucessful. 

 I too have been in the loop over this from Bill.  So, I wasn't surprised to find out about it being here - I already knew.   He has already sent a comment to include in the next Fizz in regards to it.   And yes, I apologize to him - because I drug him into this by posting links to his articles.   I feel a bit guilty for that, because he's done a lot for me and I feel I put him in the line of fire because of it by trying to be helpful.   But, also because I know Bill, I feel like he welcomes the questioning because it opens up an opportunity to research deeper.  He'll handle it in his usual flair for digging up whatever it needs be to answer the questions raised.   And yes, my first reaction was "He'll never write for me again."   But I know better.

 So, I will go back to what I do better (magazine layout) than making wee hour posts and leave this to the ones who do it best and keep my big fat fingers quiet.

 Also, to answer your question about the next magazine.   After the printer took almost a month to print it, I labeled and stamped it in one day.   The post office that told me they'd give me a break on postage, so I could afford to send the larger size suddenly won't take it now without the additional postage.  As soon as I can catch the older guy (who has been off until tomorrow - Tuesday) who said he'd take them, it has been ready to mail for days.   It will be mailed tomorrow (Tuesday), even if I am forced to pay the surcharge.   Some of them were mailed Saturday(envelopes with more than one issue and stuff like that).   Before the next issue, I will set up a bulk mailing permit and be done with it.   It will cost me $300, but it's easier than having to play tag with the one guy at the PO that will accept them with postage I can live with.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 3, 2008)

> .I think if you used the same equipment you would use to print two colors and only printed with one color this outline might show up on the bottle.I think that outline is on all 7UP bottles under the red layer which overlays on the white layer and is added after the white layer.I work in a printing plant and each station adds a layer of a different color until the finished product has the right shades of each color.If you start with white and add nothing else there will be an outline where the other colors are supposed to be.Just my opinion,but I still think the red was never
> applied to these bottles.


 
 This is something we can add to our list of growing info from someone that works in printing.   I did not know about the layers and outlines for the other colors,  (I know the magazine prints color as a four-color process, like a laser printer has four cartridges, but wondered how it worked.)  So, this may explain why an outline would be there for an otherwise missing color.   That's why I agreed with him that I didn't think the ones I have ever  had red either. 

 It will be interesting to see, after all the data is in, what more we find out.

 Thanks,
 K


----------



## Trying not to break it (Jun 3, 2008)

hi everyone, i find this thread very interesting on dating acl's.  i have dug several try me acl's,  they are embossed on the base  B 9,  according to the balt. bottle book, this mark is from buck glass co. balt..   they dated there bottles. with a 1 or 2 digit #.  single digits where from the 20's, after that they went to a 2 digit code for the 30's ect.  on a lot of these bottles the very edge of the paint on the bottles looks fraid (sp).  your thoughts on when acl's started appreciated.  thanks   rhona


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  thesodafizz
> Oh god, I was afraid I'd make it worse, and that's just what I did.


 
 Not really. We all get carried away and sometimes come off sounding completely different than the intent of our message. Been there done that no harm done.


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 3, 2008)

[blockquote]
 [blockquote]
 Dang scavenger now look what ya done. Done run off Kathy. The best friend and most knowlageable person we have here on the soda side. All because of a 7Up bottle and a moron in Alabama [meaning bottleman57]. As a collector of said bottles should'nt you have known what you where getting. What do you use for refrence? Seems like you're blaming Kathy and Bill for your mistake. I know you said you were'nt.Ya said Kathy was trying to make you look like a fool. That was probably my post go back and check it out. Something else you said "That the paint was removed" ya think someone actually sat there w/ a razor scrapping away to rip someone off. I don't think so. Ya only need two more to be complete? Don't know what or how many you have,but sitting here looking at Fizz Jan/Feb 05 I see 9 different bottle backs. Jan/Feb 06 front cover there is a 7Up bottle that has on front lable 'Alkaline Reaction/ The Gas Purifies" got that one? How about the amber standard from San Dieago? Ooops now there's four ya need and I'll bet if ya look longer there's more. Calm down they're only bottles, inexpensive ones to boot. When ya start paying 3-400 then start tripping,but not over 20 bucks. I think Kathy needs an "I'm sorry for over reacting........" Just my opinion there............ Rhona the acl process started around 1935. That's just what I've heard and read. I was'nt around back then so I'll have to leave it at that.[/blockquote][/blockquote]


----------



## T D (Jun 3, 2008)

Rhona, I agree with Pat, everyone says 1935, but most of the stuff you see, really starts around 1937, 38, and 39.  The Try Me is newer, but I can't date it.  The ACL's from the thirtys have a different sheen to the colors, unually a duller look.  The ACL book you can find at thesodafizz.com describes the history of the ACL and the changes in the painting process over the years.  Hope this helps.


----------



## madman (Jun 3, 2008)

yep the dump where ifind them dates to 1935 to 1941 madman


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 3, 2008)

That's about right there TD and Mike. I don't belive I have one that pre dates 1938. I do have a Lucky Boy from Fla. that maybe a 36 or 37.


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

according to the code, this is a Glenshaw Glass 1938


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

best I can tell this is a 1937, I've got several more pre 1940, all I could get my hands on this late....


----------



## bamascavenger (Jun 4, 2008)

Osia,I have 12... 7up bottles, the ALKALINE, THE Amber Squat 1935!! ACL. AND EACH HAVE A TOTTALY DIFFERENT SAYING ON THE REAR SIDE. Besides the one that says; take the ouch out of grouch embossed 1937 test bottle i am about done unless another variant of the rears come around. 
 Now your letter here has already started out like a child would say; nanny nanny boo boo.  Christs sake man, Grow up! And as far as your "opinion"....  they are like butt holes we all have one!  I DID NOT RUN MS. Kathy off! Nor was i trying. And may i add, I do not apologize unless i know i need to and in this case there is no apology coming for just asking for more documentation. 1. "I DID NOT OVER REACT." Yes, I should have looked at the bottle more than i did, But have you ever got buck fever? I normally have stayed away from these before until i read the article in the Fizz. But i NEVER blamed the FIZZ! Now...  MY OPINION, I think 7up may have kept the red on but not as much, to make the product stand out and out sale other sodas during these times. Ie. More flare, easy to see! But, franchises out there may have followed instructions from the main office and removed the red. If the main office gave these orders, yet to be confirmed? Therefore, There may only be a few WHITE label 7ups out here. So, these may now be considered very rare? This is the info as collectors we need. And if i went about it the wrong way, which some people do and i too. Maybe, Just maybe i owe an apology. But it is not your place to TELL me to make one. Maybe if you asked, That would be different. As for the fool comment if you were and now are trying to make a fool out of someone who has an extensive soda collection by asking which ones i have and oooops then you need 4. HaHa! Who is the FOOL now? LOOK IN THE MIRROR! REMEMBER, WHEN YOU POINT A FINGER AT SOMEONE THERE ARE ALWAYS FOUR POINTING BACK AT YOU! I have more than i listed above but why try and please you. I have a Squat from Nashville, Houston, San Diego, New Orleans. ACL! And a few that had paper labels. I try and purchase only the premo ones out there for sale. I hate that you are so envious! It is so evident and too funny. And sir may i add, I think you are a very callous individual trying to hide under a skirt! Kathy is grown and says what she likes and if she wants an apology from me, then let her ask. I do not need you to be a go between with her and I. She is quite grown and capable of writing that is for sure. Everyone should ask questions regardless of who the author or writer would be. If you have or think you have a valid issue that would make something grow or get a better understanding of the issue for the community as a whole....Then ask them! As I did! The fool is the one who never asks! I am willing to learn, learn, learn and learn more if it gets the original Authors to research it for us. The time they spend doing so greatly helps the bottle collecting community and i have great respect for both BILL and KATHY! If it were not for them I would not have noticed that all my 7ups had different phrases on the rear and some only very slight. Where i had only 1 bottle there is now 2 that look alike but the rears/phrases are different. ALL THANKS TO THAT GREAT 7UP ARTICLE IN THE SODAFIZZ!! So Osia, in conclusion, If you are not in the poker game stop telling the others how to play! P.S. How many do you have OSIA?


----------



## TX Big Chief (Jun 4, 2008)

This fire don't need any more fuel but I will pour a little on it anyway.This bottle is from ebay,dated 1950.It does show that the red color comes off easier than the white,war time or not.Everyone can draw their own conclusions from it.


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

dudes, some folks here are wound a little too tight.  I love these forums for the tons of information that you can learn from lots of different kinds of folks.  Been in million junk holes looking for old bottles, but never in a hole in the ground.  After reading and learning from these posts, a may try a dig before I get too old to shovel.  Yes everyone does have an opinion, but remember everyone has a different personality too, so just let it go.  I do get kick to begin with, but after a while it gets a little stale.  I sense that some are capable of interjecting some good stuff gets turned off by all the negative and either goes off line or goes to another topic.  I know some make comments that sting a little, but if that was all I had to worry about, I'd go Nuckin_____s.  I'm hopping off the soap box now, if I continue on, I may wind too tight.  T D


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

just read your's Big Chief from Tejas, and no you're not pouring gas on the fire, just giving us all more info...love all this painted stuff...........


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 4, 2008)

Ah - just what I was looking for - a bottle (any bottle, Seven-Up or otherwise) that had the red partway there, in the process of wearing off.  At least this is tangible, real evidence.   
 Thank you for posting the photo.   I had never seen one - now I can say differently (thank gawd).


----------



## acls (Jun 4, 2008)

I am a 7up collector so here goes my 2 cents.  I have seen many of the bubble girl labeled bottles with only a white ACL.  I have no doubt in my mind that a lot of these all white ACL 7ups originally had orange paint on the label too.  For some reason the orange paint on these bottles can completely disentegrate while the white paint remains perfect.  I have seen many examples where only a few tiny flecks of orange were left. There are lots of 7up/ACL collectors who believe that a white only label was never made.  This has been a topic of discussion for many years. 

 On the flip side many companies scaled back to only one color during the WWII.  Some KIST, RC, and Mission bottles have single color ACLs during the war.  It is definitely possible that 7up did this too.  I have seen a mint condition white ACL 7up Bubble Girl Amber Squat from Nashville, TN that showed no outline or any other signs of ever having  orange paint.  I passed on purchasing this particular bottle because at the time every 7up collector I had spoken to said there were no true white only ACL bottles.  In hindsight I believe that bottle never had orange and was originally made with only the white paint.

 So anyway, my two cents is that I believe a lot of the all white ACL 7ups originally had orange paint.  I also believe that it is very probable that 7up produced white only ACLs during the war years...............


----------



## acls (Jun 4, 2008)

This link shows a green glass bubble girl with the orange  paint deteriorating.......
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=799415&ppid=1122&image=135331074&images=135331074,135331026,135331037,135331045,135331054,135331058,135331065,135331018&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0

 Pic of amber squat with paint deteriorating.....


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

it's after midnight, this may be me showing my rear end because it really has nothing to do with anything, but here is a 1937 Cleo Cola, the glass is almost perfect, the red is very good, and the white is coming off.  Go figure and go to bed...at least me anyway.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 4, 2008)

Ok.  Good to see the posts coming.  As I said before, I never saw a Seven-Up with half of the red missing - which didn't mean there wasn't one, just that I hadn't seen one.   Now, there's a post of a photo of one - so I consider that validated info, with photographic proof (as Charlie Harris would say).

 Forgot to mentioin - the Soda Fizz made it thru the post office without having to pay the surcharge today.  So, they'll be trickling in to you who are members.  Next issue, I hope to have to the printer by early next month.  Now how long he takes to print this one, we'll see.   So, there'll be another one coming soon.  Thanks for everyone's patience.

 Now, another tidbit of info.   In going thru the current issue, I noticed something I had forgotten until now (I've slept since I did these pages).   Member Chris Weide contributed photos of three Seven-Up bottles not in Bill Lockhart's article.  There are photos of the front and back of the bottles, with descrptions in Chris's comments about the differences of each one.   So, add three to whatever total that Bill had in his original articles.  

 But what caught my attention was this:  three different glass companies.  One was from Owens-Illinois (1938), another from Glenshaw Glass (1935) and the last one from Armstrong Cork Co., (1968).    Armstrong Cork Co.?  

 Check out the photos in the Fizz when you get it and then go see if any of yours have those subtle differences Chris describes.   After everyone has a chance to get their issue, and read it, if you'd like - for those of you who do not subscribe, I can post a link to Chris's photos and comment so everyone can see.

 K


----------



## capsoda (Jun 4, 2008)

The orange on the older 7UP bottles seems to wear off pretty quick under the right conditions. There was only one change in the 7UP label from the first issue until the 1970s and that was the amount of bubbles on the label. The first year there were eight bubbles on the label over the bubble up girl and eight under the 7. The second year it was changed to seven bubbles and stayed that way until the letter only label came out. Your bottle hade the orange on it at one time.


----------



## bamascavenger (Jun 4, 2008)

Caps is correct if he is talking about ACLS post. ACLS... The AMBER SQUATS were only made from 1935 to 1938??or 1939 Except the other day i did see one that had a Large 4 with a smaller 4 just above it, dating it to 1944? Looked like the small 4 was added on afterwards. Not sure where this bottle would stand? Bill. Kathy? So anyway, This type along with my 1940 Green bottle was an Orange shield ACL. Most all amber squats were orange acl's with the exception of the ones that had labels. The Bottles in question are the GREEN WWII ones. If you found a Amber squat with no red orange and only white, Pre war....Then i would say it lost its red for some reason, Probably from being buried and dug up, Cleaned by a tumbler Etc. Or it was dated past 1940 as for the one i stated above, which would put another twist on the original article in the FIZZ on bottle dates. Would a bottler keep using these squats beyond 1940 and add a smaller number as stated in the article to determine if bottles were 1930 or 1940? We already know to date ACL'S because they came in to play in 1935. But the dating numbers especially on the amber squat I seen does not seem to fit the picture. If they used these during the war and changed the dates then is there really a WHITE only Amber Squat out there? If so, Then I need that one too! HaHa! The questions and mystery continues. Hope i made sense. 
 Kathy, I guess i do owe you an apology, I usually do not come off so gruff! Maybe men go through menopause too? LOL. I will be man enough and pony up an apology. I am very sorry if i hurt your feelings or think i doubted your knowledge that was certainly not my intention. Sincerely, Terry. 
 Great to be back on track again!  P.S. After reading posts' again. I must say that the bottles linked and shown are also showing the white is missing or fading too. The bottles I have in question are PERFECT white letters, lines with NO fading and the ORANGE is gone. This is the Bottle in question is it not? It is the one I have been asking about, Just to clear up any misunderstandings. Will you have any pics in the FIZZ on these Kathy or later perhaps? Anyone care to show the all whites they have for all to see? Thanks!!


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 4, 2008)

No apology necessary.  My intention was just to introduce who Bill was (and a bit about me), stress that I would print whatever new info that gets dug up so everyone would know and in my longwinded epic, gave too much (unnessary) info and it got all misconstrued to something else.  I realized the next day that I just needed to have kept it simple, like the re-edited post, and it would be less for me to get messed up.   I have said many times, I know what I am trying to say and think everyone else does too.    It's the fun of being blonde - I can blame it on my hair....

 From the email I got from Bill, he is planning on working this out and make a future article of it for the Fizz.   Hopefully, he'll be able to get that done soon, especially since it's summer, altho he has classes during the summer too, I think - he still has less load than during regular school semesters.   But as soon as he does, I'll put the info in the Fizz, as well as post it here.   

 Who would have thought there'd be so many different bottles for one major brand?   But it's like the Orange Crush ones - my gawd, Mike Rosman (who has chronicled this extensively) has zillions of them - and all are different in some way.   I have a blueprint (probably called something else in bottle lingo, but for lack of anything else to refer to it as) for a Coke bottle (one of the later patents), and it is SO specific.  Each slight thing is measured in exactness down to the nth degree.   But of course, Coke is just like that with everything they do (like when their attorneys went after me for being "CokeGirl.").   So, I guess, from all the differences, either Seven-Up left "loopholes" that a glassmaker could run with, or they weren't as specific - or they kept changing the gameplan.   But, it makes it interesting for us to try and figure out.

 I also have copies of proof sets for the ACL labels.  Each is "painted" with the color (on some kind of card stock) and has the bottler, date, mold # (which has helped explain those crazy numbers on some bottle's bottoms), etc.   Some of them will have comments penciled on them, like white - ok (or approved), red-reject (or whatever color they have rejected in how they worded it).   There's no comments as to why certain ones have not been approved, so I wonder about that.

 Now, another note.   There is one major collector, who is basically considered as a "reliable" source of information.   He has, since day one I met him, sworn as gospel that they didn't use red during the war time.   To be honest, I have never found any proof, other than some bottles missing red that normally had it, to validate this.  No one from a bottling plant or bottle manufacturer has stated so.   But I have never pursued it either.   I guess it's really past time to clear this up as rumor, or fact.  

 My idea - and here's where some of you (as well as my readers) will have to help me because I am lacking the necessary tools.   I have a few copies of the National Bottler and American Bottler & Carbonation, as well as a company magazine or two.  From these few, I know they have about everything imaginable to "educate" the bottlers - which is a bit boring as a read for the average person (collector or otherwise), because it's all about equipment, sales and all that (I get them for the ads - and a few articles - because the ads help date things too).   It could be that if any of you have copies dated during the war years, you could take a few minutes and look thru it to see if it has anything re: what to do about the red paint, rumored to be needed for the war effort (everything else is in there - so this could be too).   It also seems to me that if the red paint was indeed "rationed" during those years, we'd not have cars painted red during that time, and other things.....(so if we can't find bottle information, perhaps we can validate it thru another source for red paint)   Dennis (CeleryCola), if you read this - is there anything you've come across in your boxes of data that relate to this subject?

 Just as Bill Lockhart debunked the "myth" that you could date a bottle by it's mold seams up the side, I'd like to either validate this rumor about red paint, or settle for all time that it's just a myth too.

 I truly appreciate all the posts showing fading red paint.   That, in itself, has validated that it does happen.   (Which had puzzled me before, how could the white remain but the red go.)

 K


----------



## acls (Jun 4, 2008)

Bama- I included the information about the amber 7ups to let you know that there is a simialr problem with the amber squats too.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 4, 2008)

True, the bottle in question is the one of the original post - but sometimes you have to include other data to come to a conclusion.  The other examples are useful in getting to that conclusion.   I appreciate it greatly to see the other examples.   It answered a question I raised in one of my previous posts that I'd never seen one in the process of fading off.  Several supplied examples of that for me.   The reason I had such a doubt about the fading red (or orange) was that my best friend's dad owned half the car lots in my home town.  I was always amazed to see the white cars flake off and rust on the lot - brand new unsold.  I asked why and was told the white paint was missing something (what, I don't remember) that kept it white, but from adhering to the primer as well as other colors, which allowed it to come off and the spot to rust.   Remembering that caused confusion for me that why would white stay on the bottle, and the red to fade off, when it wouldn't stay on a car.   Secondly, then I remembered that red, during that same time period, was usually the first color to fade off on the cars, losing its shine to a dingy, dull color.   So, it fits.  Red fades off cars too, or at least used to.  (They use clear coat now to keep cars shiny and from fading.  But the older cars didn't have clear coat - so they faded, chipped off and rusted.)   Paint has come a long way in the last 50 or so years......

 Keep the info coming....

 K


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 4, 2008)

Since people are showing early acl bottles I thought I would throw these two into the mix. They are two Rums Dry bottles from the Nehi bottling company of Bluefield, VA. The one on the left is a 1938 and the one on the right is a 1943. Maybe this will give a good idea about the differences in the earlier acls as compared to the later ones. The earlier ones do seem to be duller in color and maybe even a bit thinner.


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 4, 2008)

Morbious, your two bottles illusttate the differences beautifully.  There's a big difference in the same exact label/bottle in just five years.  

 It seems to me that along the way of solving the Seven-Up red vs. no red question, we might as well delve into it and understand the process a little better as we go.  They definitely did make improvements as they went, and learned what worked better.

 Let's keep the info coming!
 K


----------



## GeorgiaVol (Jun 4, 2008)

I know this is a BAAADLY damaged bottle, but I thought I would show one where the red color was the last to go.


----------



## T D (Jun 4, 2008)

Thanks for the Rums Dry pics.  That illustrates very nicely what I was saying several posts ago.  I have the newer version, but not the older one.  Nice...


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 5, 2008)

Re: the Rums Dry, I think mine is the older one because I remember it being a duller yellow than your nice, brighter one on the right.  

 I also remembered something from my notes - and also something Bill Lockhart had asked me for at one time - about the ACL process.  

 It is from an article in *First Annual Blue Book of the National Carborator and Bottler*, February 1939.

 The link to a copy of it: 

http://www.bottlebooks.com/ACL%201937/bottles_applied_color_labels.htm

 I have the _Eighth Annual Blue Book of American Carbonator & Bottler_, March 1946, and looked in it.  It has no details about ACL labeling process.  It does have one article about labels - in the first sentence - it says if you don't use the Applied Color Labels to identify your product...then it goes on in detailed description about how to apply paper labels properly.  Otherwise, it doesn't mention ACL again.  I wish it had been earlier in the 40s than 1946, it may have had something about the things we are wondering about.   I suspect by 1946, ACL had already been covered in previous editions and it wasn't necessary to repeart it...

 But the excerpt above in the link describes the process, in 1939 anyway, in great detail.   In its version, it describes the first process I mention in an earlier post, of heating the bottles after each color (and why bottles with more than one color cost more).   But it goes on to explan what the "paint" is made up of - and something I missed (or at least had forgotten) from reading it ages ago.   The "paint" is actually made from (colored) glass crushed into powder (or something like that), so the two, label and bottle, adhere nicely when heated in the lehr.   (And yep, it is called annealing, so I at least remembered _something_.)  It was applied by silk screen, also what I suspect was an expensive procedure.  

 When my edition of the _Blue Book_ mentions ACL bottles, it tells the reader to inspect the bottles (in another article re: new bottle shipments) for proper annealment.  I guess they were supposed to see if the paint was even, etc.   Then they were to take random "test bottles" from here and there in the shipment and run them thru the process several times of washing, bottling and capping, to make sure they were of proper size, height, bottle thickness to hold the pressure of carbonation, etc. - for use.  (I wonder how many bottlers actually did that?)  Then, if the test bottles made it thru ok, then to assume the rest of the shipment was ok too and go for it.

 This silk-screened process may be the pain that has become "missing" on some of our bottles.  (And note the illustrated bottles for it - front and center is a Seven-Up bottle.)

 It's kind of cool to see what "advice" these books gave the bottlers.  If you have never seen one of these books, if you ever get the chance to - give it a thumb thru - it's worth it.

 Now, to find out when the second, more economic, procedure was invented - and what it did, or didn't do, during the process.  I also wonder if the missing red bottles are from the same bottle manufacturer(s), or if some of them all had problems of coming off......regardless of bottle maker.   

 Perhaps these silk-screened labels (that were basically hand applied) have caused the problems we are seeing - perhaps the person applying it couldn't get the paint the same thickness on each bottle, and so some had thinner labels.  Or perhaps the paint powder became contaminated at some point and didn't adhere well - or the lehr wasn't at the proper temperature, which allowed the label not to stick as well to the bottle > and so they came off easily.   

 Interesting, isn't it? 

 Another thing I would like to do is have photos from everyone's collection and put them all together on one webpage so they can be more easily seen and compared with each other (along with the info posted with each one).   I may do that in the next few days, as more stuff is added, and put up the link.....

 K


----------



## T D (Jun 5, 2008)

thanks Kathy for the link.  Super cool!!


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 5, 2008)

> ORIGINAL:  thesodafizz Re: the Rums Dry, I think mine is the older one because I remember it being a duller yellow than your nice, brighter one on the right.


 
 The duller yellow Rums Dry has the Good Housekeeping Seal while the 1943 doesn't have that.


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 6, 2008)

Wow Terry I don't see how I missed all that. My butts sore now. Callous and blunt that's me. I win lots of friends that way. I don't mean to be an ass I just come across like that. I try to be direct and blunt w/ a whole lot of smart ass thrown in to make my point.You're not the first one I've POed here, anywhere as a matter a fact. I just found out the other day some people don't like me. My bud JB say "Ya know Pat some people don't like you" I was stunned to say the least. For near 49 years I thought I was everybodies friend.I got home and told Paula my bad news. To my horror she confirmed it. "Why?" I ask. She said I was, uh what was it? Oh yea "Brutally honest, to honest for your on good" and "You need to learn to talk w/ people without them feeling as if they've been insulted. Especially when they have a problem." That all? If that's all I really don't care. No one should ask me a question.I  thought I might have had bad breath or something worse like being ugly.I just try to make people pay attention and try to get them to listen to what they say. You outta see me when I over react. I just look like a fool. I did Wed nite and it was over something really important like Lemon chicken and french fries.Mistakes, boy have I made them. Been ripped off? More than once. Whose fault was it? Mine most of the time. As far as telling Kathy you're sorry. I think you should have still. If you were in my house you would have. As far as trying to make a fool out of ya I would never do that never. I try my best to respect all and in turn I expect the same. Do I try to inject caustic humor into things poke a little fun at them? Yes I do. Damn Terry you're one of us, love them Bammer boys and our son is transferring to to your hometime. Remember I know where ya live[]. Man if ya was one of my buds I probably would torment you to no end. As far as jealous? Na, envy sometimes jealous never. How many  7Ups I got? Not many 6 or 7 maybe. I collect by state. Being S.C.,N.C. and Ga. I do have an 8 bubble swimmer and an amber paper squat from Chstn.. If I were you I would be proud of my collection. Please post some pics. S. After all of this I would really like to see yours. I said please. From the way it sound you have an impressive collection. I try to promote this hobby without malice and hope you do the same .With my deepest regards I'm sorry if  I insulted you or thought I was trying to make you look like a fool.. Pat Hall


----------



## acls (Jun 6, 2008)

Bama- I went back and read through your list of bottles you have in your collection.  It sounds like you have a great collection.  I would love to see some pics.  I am especially interested in the Alkaline bottle. There is so little known about that rare little bottle.  Most were found in the Atlanta area.  Did you find yours in Alabama?


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 6, 2008)

Why thank you there Mr. Lobey, can't never have to many friends.I know a ton people,and everyone around here knows my name wether good or for bad, but few friends. My favorite Uncle, Jimmy once told me if you can go through life and find 5 people who were true friends you have done good for yourself. I belive him. Kindred spirits maybe who suffer none. Also thank you for the PM the other day. Even though I think I missed something after the name change post. Looked at it a few hours and POOF it was gone. Been wondering what I missed. I know you saying "What the hell are them hicks arguing over a little paint for." Ya gotta be one of us to understand. I'll tell Paula I got a friend.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vY1peG8gHQ&feature=related


----------



## thesodafizz (Jun 7, 2008)

Tell Paula you have two....

 I know it must sound silly to the milk, ink, whiskey, frut jar and insulator people that we get all stirred up over some paint, but.......perhaps one day, they'll get it.  Just as I don't get it that I get an article for B&E that describes a lid for a fruit jar and says it is 1/16th of an inch less in diameter than another one.  My geez, I think what difference does it really make?  So they have to understand we have our perks too....

 My current "mission" is to try and find out if they did indeed "ration" red paint during war time (by using other means that bottling - because there has to be stuff out there that used more amounts of red paint to be lacking it than the teensy bit it would take to smear on a label).   I mean, if none of the bottles had red paint during those years, just how much paint would they have saved.   So, I am exploring avenues in regards to was there something that was needed to make the paint red that they couldn't get because of the war, like the stuff they couldn't get from Germany to make glass clear in WWI, so they used something else instead (and before-glass turns purple when "nuked" and after-glass turns amber).  

 And I guess Lockhart is pursuing the red vs. no red vs. red worn off leaving white part of it.   If I "solve" the mystery of war time vs. whatever, then I'll see if Bill needs any help.   But I want to settle this once and for all, so there's no rumors.

 My opinion at this moment, from the posts and photos, is that there defnitely are bottles missing red that wore off.   But the evidence so far hasn't closed the possibliltty that there's _also_ bottles that never had red to begin with (or why).   This  may take longer to solve, because the years and manufacturers of the missing red (worn off variety) needs to be compared to see if there's a consistency to it in either years, bottlers or glass makers.   

 Then, we'll come up with a new question to throw around.....

 K


----------



## bne74honda (Jun 10, 2008)

OH boy....do I dare make a comment? YES! First - enuff apologies already! We all know that keyboard communication is like talking with your mouth full when you're deaf and blind. Second - this entire post has been 100% worth every comment added. I've been collecting 7up bottles for a few small years and have seen many examples of everything mentioned here. The squat ambers did have red as well as white. I watched one on eBay that had been only a display bottle in a plant go for over $500 - the white and red ACL was beautiful. I've seen folks on eBay take the same bottle and apply the Lithiated Soda paper label themselves and ask over $100. And I've seen them with only white but still mint.

 I've dug some green bottles with only white but the white is mint. Personally, I've always collected that which appeals to me. In terms of the 8 bubble ACL, all I've ever heard indicates the change from 8 to 7 was made within the first 2-3 years of production. But I wasn't there so who really knows. I'll try post some pics of my stuff soon just so folks can google, gaggle, spiggle and spaggle.

 Let's just all remember that we started this hobbie for fun. For many (okay..most) it's become an obsession but don't you still get that same daydreamy feeling when you hold something 40, 50, 60 or even 100 years old? Let your inner child play and have fun!

 Just my 2 cents.

 Brian


----------



## bamascavenger (Aug 13, 2008)

Not trying to open up that nasty can of worms again i am just sharing some info i came across. It is possible that most red pigmentation can fade or lose it all together if buried and or left in the sun for a very long time. However, Toulouse (sic)? Had an article on this and another personal communication as follows may indeed prove or at least explain that some bottles...On the west coast did leave out the Red Pigmantation due to the WAR! Here is a partial copy of the letter; In a personal communication, Mike​Elling noted that ca. 1944-1945 Owens-​Illinois seems to have run short of red​pigment. Mike has a Royal Crown​pyramid bottle that is missing the red that​was typically used on the label. Billy​Grice offered a yellow-only Squirt bottle​on eBay with a 1945 Owens-Illinois mark​and date code embossed on the base. He​stated that â€œDuring the war many west​coast bottlers went to single colors.â€ It is​possible that red dye was in short supply​during the end of World War II. Owens-​Illinois may have only experienced the​shortage for the final year or so of the war.

 This is not proof, but it does help, just look carefully for the red border that should be there if it had red paint on it. Looking at it from an angle you will see where the red use to be. If there is no "base" shadow, you might have a real "white" 7up! Thank you all for your contributions.


----------



## JayBeck (Jun 1, 2010)

I dug up this old thread because I found one of the 7 Up bottles with just the white paint and was hoping to find more information but there seems to be quite some debate on this matter. It is a Glenshaw bottle with a V near the crown which dates to the 1950's. I wanted to find out more about this and found it odd that mine is later than WW II and is near mint with no signs of any red paint ever being there. Marked West Barrington, Rhode Island. I will post a pic later in a new thread with the other finds of the weekend.


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 1, 2010)

Oh boy this one again. LOL! You are correct there is much debate over this one. I picked up a late 1930's 7-up from Charlotte with the same problem. The white is perfect; however, the red is gone except for the ghostly image of it which I have seen on nearly every one of these so called war time bottles.


----------



## Bottle Junkie 56 (Jun 1, 2010)

Pat. Now You have at least 2 friends. As for the 7-up debate, everybody has an opinion and mine is until I see proof I don't buy the "white paint only" story. Morbs, I saw the Princeton Motors bottle at Hillsville Sat. before You acquired it. Great bottle!! Out of my territory and $$$ range. Guy had some great stuff but sure was in love($$$) with them. I have Upper 10 bottles similar to your Rums Dry in that the paint is fainter and thinner. How about a blue/yellow Rums Dry, they are tough to find. Need to buy me a )*^#>{! camera. Thanks. RK


----------



## JayBeck (Jun 1, 2010)

Hey Morb, I know this thread mainly pertains to the war time era 7 ups with just the white label but mine is from the mid 1950s. Do you know of any others seen from this era? I examined it very closely before I bought it and see no signs of the red ever being there, it looks like the red ran out or something and never got applied. The white paint is shiny and near mint and so is the bottle. Even with the debate do these bottles bring a premium? Any additional info is greatly appreciated.


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 1, 2010)

> ORIGINAL:  JayBeck
> 
> Hey Morb, I know this thread mainly pertains to the war time era 7 ups with just the white label but mine is from the mid 1950s. Do you know of any others seen from this era? I examined it very closely before I bought it and see no signs of the red ever being there, it looks like the red ran out or something and never got applied. The white paint is shiny and near mint and so is the bottle. Even with the debate do these bottles bring a premium? Any additional info is greatly appreciated.


 
 There is usually a ghosting which can been seen if you hold it on an angle with light shinning on it. I have seen 1950's 7-ups in various stages of the red acl damaged and the white is in good shape. I think that the red/orange acl was weaker than the white acl.


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 1, 2010)

> ORIGINAL:  Bottle Junkie 56
> 
> Pat. Now You have at least 2 friends. As for the 7-up debate, everybody has an opinion and mine is until I see proof I don't buy the "white paint only" story. Morbs, I saw the Princeton Motors bottle at Hillsville Sat. before You acquired it. Great bottle!! Out of my territory and $$$ range. Guy had some great stuff but sure was in love($$$) with them. I have Upper 10 bottles similar to your Rums Dry in that the paint is fainter and thinner. How about a blue/yellow Rums Dry, they are tough to find. Need to buy me a )*^#>{! camera. Thanks. RK


 
 Yeah he certainly has an inflated value system, but sometimes it's justified, I've been dealing with him for a while, and have better luck trading with him. Haven't seen a blue and yellow rums dry.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2010)

Today is the first time I've seen this thread from 2008. And right away I noticed something that may create even more controversy, (as if there wasn't enough to drive us crazy already). But if you take a close look at the following two photos, (both of which are taken from this thread, and both of which are seven bubble bottles), you will notice on the so called "White Label" bottle that the top bubble on the right is directly below the P ... but on the "Red Label" bottle in my next post, the bubble on the right is directly next to the P.  So even though it doesn't answer the "White vs. Red" controversy, it does open up another question as to why is there a difference in the location of the bubble? And does it have anything to do with the color scheme?  Hmmm ... more questions to rattle our brains! I don't have the answer, and probably never will. But if someone else does, I love to hear it.

 Thanks.

 SODAPOBBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2010)

Here's the red label one.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2010)

P.S. ~

 Surely I am not the first person in soda bottle collecting history to notice the different bubble locations ... or am I?  I do some painting and art work on the side, and I guess my eye is just atuned to such differences. Maybe we should start checking our other 7up bottles and see what the majority of them look like. Just in case I'm the first to discover this, I officially call it "The Offset Bubble Bottle."  Lol  []  

 SPB


----------



## epackage (Jun 1, 2010)

Very cool find SPB, this is an interesting post and I don't even collect ACL's....gonna do a bit of research myself....Jim


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2010)

I just surfed the internet and looked at more 7up bottles than I can count, and found only two so far that have the bubble below the P.  The two I am referring to are the white label one above and the 1935 amber example from San Diego shown below. Other than that, I have no evidence one way or the other as to why this was done.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 2, 2010)

Based on everything I could find after about two hours of extensive searching, it appears that the bubbles location below the P was discontinued at the same time when the company changed from eight bubbles to seven bubbles in 1938. So it appears this so called displacement was intentional, and only appears on bottles and other advertising items between circa 1935 and 1938. Of course, there may be exceptions to this, but if they exist I have not been able to find one. If you have a bottle or any other 7up item with the bubbles below the P, and which is dated later than 1938/39, please share it with the rest of us. Below is a match book cover with the lower bubbles, but I haven't been able to date it yet. But hope to as soon as I can determine when the slogan "Take Some Along" was first introduced. Slogans are a great way of determining dates. And for those interested in reading the Bill Lockhart article on 7up, here's the link. It may take a minute to load, but is well worth the wait.  []

 SPB

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/BLockhart_7UpBottlers.pdf


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 2, 2010)

I think I found an explanation of why the earlier logo had the bubbles below the P while later ones didn't. That answer comes from the paper label 7-up from Johnson City, Tenn., where you will notice that there appears to be a line of trademark information directly under the up in 7-up and the bubbles are lower to accommodate that. This of course wouldn't translate that well on an acl and they dropped the line and eventually moved the bubbles up to eliminate negative space. Just a theory, but it does make some sense.

 Just for a thought. My 1944 Bristol, Tenn. 7-up has the bubbles moved up while my friend's 1940 Johnson City Tenn. has them below. Granted the '40 is an eight bubble, but has a seven bubble neck acl. BTW the same gentleman who operated the Johnson City, Tenn. Seven-up bottling company, moved to Bristol, Tenn. to start up that company around 1941. Same guy, different bottles, most likely a company mandated running change to the logo in the early 1940s.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks Morb ~

 I had a feeling (and hoping) you might be the one to save the day. Your explanination makes total sense to me. Plus I think there was likely a lot of confusion and experimentation going on in the early days, especially during the depression when people didn't know if they were coming or going. And then after that the world was topsy-turvey again because of the war. But man, did us "Baby Boomers" ever get it right! Heck, by the 1950s there was no end to the variety of cool things a dime could buy, including an ice cold bottle of soda pop. I remember it well!

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm gonna keep my Gen-X mouth shut on the subject of boomers getting it right. LOL! As for experimentation you are correct, remember that this was the same period when they changed from 8 to 7 bubbles as well.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 2, 2010)

Geez, Morb ... 

 With your vast knowledge of soda bottles, I figured you were at least 70 years old. Lol  []  And if my Baby-Boomer memory serves me correctly, Generation-X would put you in the "Thirty-Something" category. But there is no need to respond to this, and we will just let it go knowing that it appears I am old enough to be your uncle ... (I'm 58).  []

 Plus, I want to apologize to bamascavenger for getting off topic here with the bubble thing. But there doesn't appear to be any objections so far. So with that said, I would like to add one final thought regarding the "Red vs White" labeling controversy. I said earlier that I recently looked at more 7up bottles than I could count. (With the majority of them being on e-Bay).  And although I am no expert on 7up bottles, I can say with conviction that I have never seen so many problems with deteriorating labels than those that occur with 7up. Just cruise the 19 pages of bottles currently on e-Bay and you will see what I mean. It seems that about one out of every ten of the older bottles has label issues. So it seems possible that the company had some kind of paint problems all along, and not just during the war years.

 Here's a short-cut link for anyone interested in going directly to e-Bay. But be prepared for it to open on a most unique 7up item that is just about as good as it gets, and something that I am watching and would dearly love to have. Be sure to scroll through all the images and description info. No label problems whatsoever, and it has the lower 8 bubbles, and dated 1937. The photo below is intended to wet your whistle. (From this particular page you can access the other 18 pages of 7up bottles to check out the various label problems).

 SPB

http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-1937-7-up-7-up-7up-6pack-6-5-oz-bottles-/120577996059?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1302351b


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2010)

Nice bottles. Notice that they are 6 1/2 oz, that is fairly unusual, as 7-ups are more common in 7oz bottles.

 Soda you are old enough to be my dad. LOL! I'm 36 pushing 37, and my actual baby boomer dad is 61. As for what I know, I've always had a mind like a steel trap and a burning desire to know everything there is to know about whatever particular hobby I happen to be in. I've only been collecting soda bottles since 2006, but I have read a lot and have been extremely observant. So I do ok, no expert by any means.


----------

