# Digging at the Whitall Tatum factory?



## RIBottleguy (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm just curious to see if anyone has ever dug at the Whitall Tatum factory.  There must be some really interesting stuff in their dump, if it's accessible.


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## tigue710 (Jan 6, 2012)

I have heard of some digs there, there was a guy on ebay years back who dug there and sold a lot of the stuff.  I have a few solid mold bottles that were dug there I bought from him.  

 Solid mold bottles are soild chunks of glass in the shape of a bottle, which were made by filling the mold with hot glass first thing in the morning to warm it up before blowing commenced, and there for eliminating cold mold ripple, or what we call whittle...

 Id love to dig that dump where ever it is!  I know the building that housed the furnace was demolished but the store house and packing factory still stands and is now a self storage building


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 6, 2012)

the reject bottles would be a treasure trove


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## RIBottleguy (Jan 6, 2012)

Hey Matt (the Tigue one),
 Do you have any pictures of these solid mold bottles?  They sound pretty neat...


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## Wheelah23 (Jan 6, 2012)

I know RED Matthews has been after a picture of one forever. I'd love to see one too! Let's see it, Tigue! [8D]


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## Steve/sewell (Jan 7, 2012)

Check out this post Matt and the others. I was in Millville today what a great glass town it was. https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Finally-got-one/m-380645/tm.htm


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## tigue710 (Jan 7, 2012)

I thought I did have some pics on my computer somewhere, but I cant find them...  I do think I kept them though and they are in a box back east... I just found out recently that a bunch of bottles I thought I had sold I still have, so Im pretty sure these were in with them...


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 7, 2012)

> Solid mold bottles are soild chunks of glass in the shape of a bottle, which were made by filling the mold with hot glass first thing in the morning to warm it up before blowing commenced,


 
 I've seen a few of these sold on ebay over the years. I remember a fruit jar and a couple medicines.
 The tops are never finished on them so they look a bit odd.


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 7, 2012)

Here's a great chunk of piso's green glass I found from awhile back from here on the forum...Paul (Idigjars) posted this originally.


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## tigue710 (Jan 7, 2012)

I found some pics finally of one of the bottles buried in my photobucket account.  I looked for a while when Red asked about them and couldnt find them anywhere, and then this morning looking for something else I stumble across them!


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 7, 2012)

makes a very common bottle seem pretty cool.


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## epackage (Jan 7, 2012)

Very Kool....


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## tigue710 (Jan 7, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> makes a very common bottle seem pretty cool.


 
 my thoughts exactly Matt, figured if I was gonna own a hicks it would be this one...  I do seem to remember the guy telling me he had seen more of these made from the hicks mold than any other though!


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## carobran (Jan 7, 2012)

Did they do this with all types of bottles everytime before they started production?


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 7, 2012)

Cool items...Love that Hick's caupudine bottle/paperweight...I used to dig those and Kemp's balsam bottles all the time when I first started digging.


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## tigue710 (Jan 7, 2012)

Carobran, this would have done with all molds in the glass houses that did it...  Im sure there are a lot of factors we do not understand, like if it was only done in winter, when production first started for a certain mold, etc... It most likely did not become a regular practice until around the turn of the century when we see whittle disappear...


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## carobran (Jan 8, 2012)

Do you know if they did it on hutches?I imagine a solid hutch would be quite a sight(and quite heavy[&:]).


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 8, 2012)

It seems like they must have started doing it pretty regularly in the last quarter of the 19th century.  Certainly standard practice by the 1890s.
 I dont think winter/summer was a factor considering the glass is probably >1000degsF.   
 I expect they did it with all types of bottles, as I said I have seen fruit jar mold warmers.

 I am kind of wondering how they got that much glass into the mold. They must of grabbed a big gather and just let it drip into the mold. Doesnt quite look like that from the final form though. The found peices are probably busted up a little so we might not be seeing exactly what it looked like taken out of the mold.


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## Wheelah23 (Jan 8, 2012)

Holy crap, that solid bottle is amazing! It would be so cool to see a solid blob, or as carbo said, a hutch.

 I can't believe I haven't seen more like that, if they were used in every glass house. Do you think there aren't many left because they were tossed back into the pot to make cullet?


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## tigue710 (Jan 8, 2012)

they probably did toss em back, and because the glass was not annealed most of the stuff that was tossed on the heap broke up quick I would suppose.  Most glass house dumps were actually cullet piles that were eventually thrown back in the pot, so the stuff that survived is few and far between, likely what was left when production ceased...


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## baltbottles (Jan 8, 2012)

My opinion is that warming of metallic molds probably started quite early. If you blow molten glass into a cold mold the glass cools too quickly and the bottle fractures causing the blow to fail. This does not occur if the mold is heated before blowing. Allowing the glass to still be warm enough to finish the lip and transport to an annealing oven. Once glass cools to below 1015 degrees without annealing it quickly cracks.

 As for the mold warmers I would bet these were made through out the day to keep the mold at a working temperature. I am surprised that any of them survive without annealing. And I would also bet that most of them got used as cullet in the next batch.

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 8, 2012)

> most of them got used as cullet in the next batch.


 
 no doubt. The existing ones were likely dug from the glass house cullet pile.

 A solid chunk of glass like that is probably going to survive a less than optimal cooling curve better than a bottle with relatively thin glass.


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## Plumbata (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm sure that many were recycled, but just the same, I'd imagine that many were tossed on the floor and swept up and tossed in their dump. The energy needed to collect and sort several pounds of differently-hued glass, especially when mixed with the filth and contaminants on the floor which would be bad for the batch, was probably better expended doing other more productive things. Also, I could see the glass being recycled more regularly in 1850 versus the early 1900's; the era apparently represented by the very interesting pieces pictured. 

 I bet a bunch of those things are waiting to be dredged up from the river adjacent to the property. If I lived in the area I'd be there searching right now. []


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 8, 2012)

cullet had to come from somewhere. Probably better to first sort it on the site than to pay contractors for it?


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## tigue710 (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  baltbottles
> 
> My opinion is that warming of metallic molds probably started quite early. If you blow molten glass into a cold mold the glass cools too quickly and the bottle fractures causing the blow to fail. This does not occur if the mold is heated before blowing. Allowing the glass to still be warm enough to finish the lip and transport to an annealing oven. Once glass cools to below 1015 degrees without annealing it quickly cracks.
> 
> ...


 

 Ive wondered myself how or if they warmed the molds prior to the  practice of using mold warmers like this...  Ive dug quite a bit at the  willington and new london glass house sites, but have never seen any  fragments of mold warmers at either, lots of drips, frags, cullet,  chunks etc., I wonder if they used some other method?  I think as long  as the mold isnt ice cold the gather warms the mold sufficiently but not  without some deformities like whittle.  This brings me back to the wing  thingamajingy, or mold pinch, that obviously cooled quickly enough to  solidify just being pinched by the mold...


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

The mold temperature is always going to be way below the fluid temperature of the glass. That mass of iron is going to suck a lot of heat out of the glass as soon as it touches it bringing it down to the semi plastic temperature. You really want that though or you could never use the snap case on the glass after you pull it from the mold.


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## baltbottles (Jan 9, 2012)

Matt,

 I would bet they just heated the molds up  in a small chamber of the furnace that didn't get super hot possibly an annealing over or perhaps they just had a special oven for warming molds. It is also my belief that most molds made before the 1850s were probably made of brass rather then cast iron. And likely had much thinner walls so they cooled quicker so they probably had to keep them in some kind of warmer between each bottle being made. Also Brass melts at a lower temperature then molten glass so I would bet the early molds would not have been able to stand a solid pour of glass in them without damaging the mold. Later heavier cast iron molds would have been able to take this kind of abuse.

 As for the pinched fin of glass I have been talking to a glassblower that has a studio a few miles from my house and he agrees with me about them being a pinched fold from closing the mold. He said that if I can get my hands on a mold we could do an experiment. I haven't had any luck getting a mold so I have been thinking about going to a local machine shop and seeing what a simple round mold might cost to have made. If I can get a cheap mold then I can finally test my theory and put that stupid mold pinch to rest.

 Chris


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## Plumbata (Jan 9, 2012)

So do you think the molds were specifically Brass, or any copper-based alloy resembling Brass or Bronze? Stuff like arsenic, antimony, etc might have been alloyed to make a more wear-resistant mold. Copper alloys tend to transfer heat more easily than cast iron, and being generally heavier and more inexpensive it would make sense that they were thinner-walled and kept heated in a special chamber.

 Would the molds have been made at the glasshouse, or would they have contracted with bell-makers to prepare and cast the molds?

 I just found a table and apparently the copper-rich Red Brass has the highest melting point of the variety of brasses (990-1025 Celsius), and is well above Bronze, so would that likely have been used? Isn't there part of a copper-alloy historical flask mold in some glass museum out east? Someone posted a picture a year ago or so ago.

 On the subject of molds, is there any evidence of carved soapstone/steatite molds having been used in early American glasshouses? Perhaps a simple carved dip-mold?


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## kungfufighter (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  PlumbataIsn't there part of a copper-alloy historical flask mold in some glass museum out east? Someone posted a picture a year ago or so ago.


 
 Lafayette GI-85 (the "A" variant if I recall) at Corning...


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## Plumbata (Jan 9, 2012)

Spot-on as usual Jeff!

 Here's a pic;





 The site claims that it is a Brass mold, but without being able to mess with the piece it looks like Bronze or yellow brass. I'd love to dig up something like this! []


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

> Would the molds have been made at the glasshouse


 
 I would think molds would be made at a separate metal foundry. Big glass houses could have had their own foundy areas but it was sort of out of the scope of glass blowing.  I have read about molds being ordered and delivered to glass houses so at least some of them didnt make their own molds.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

Those brass/bronze molds have so little relative mass that they would probably cool down very fast.


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## tigue710 (Jan 9, 2012)

ive seen etchings and have read accounts of molds being attached and even sunken into the floor of early glass houses.  It seems it would be very time consuming and difficult to move the molds around between each use also.  Im sure they were put away when they were not in use, after an order was filled, but considering that glass blower's were paid in piece work, and could blow a bottle a minute, i dont think it would be necessary to warm the mold between each use...I really believe the molds were not warmed, except for maybe the first piece blown which could of been tossed, until later in the 19th century.  My guess is that they only started using them to keep the bottles more uniform...

 how cool does a mold, whether brass or Iron, have to be before it disturbs the manufacturing process?  Im thinking it would have to be shockingly cold...

 I wonder if someone here on the forum would be willing to let a mold be used for investigation?  Gotta be someone on here with some molds...


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## RED Matthews (Jan 9, 2012)

Hello to all of you!!!!!!!!!!  What a Thread.----------
   Well all of you this has been a job maker for me.  I have just put together a copy of this thread so I can make comments directed to each of you, if I have two cents of value to offer that may help you get a better feel of the way I see it..  This whole search of the pieces of evidence, we have been able to read about and learn about, has kept me busy for at least a good fourty years (- because it started when I was still working in the industry).  After retirement from my world marketing of mold metal castings and studying the different things I saw and experienced in those travels; I went to collecting books and reading to learn more about how glass products were made before 1900.  These studies and my years of glass collecting have all exposed me to the mysteries of making bottles in these earlier methods.  The marks on the glass are almost all I have to come to some of my solutions to the BOTTLE MYSTERIES of how things were done that didnâ€™t get covered in the books written.      I will work on this coverage for the next couple days no doubt.  RED Matthews  [/align]


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## kungfufighter (Jan 9, 2012)

Mark Vuono has a scroll flask mold that he has shared with some modern glassblowers and the results of their efforts have been surprising to say the least.  To date, none of the flasks have survived the annealing process and from the shards (yes, you read that correctly) it would seem that the blowers are unable to create an even gather, in that the pieces show a wide distribution of glass thickness.  Amazing that even with computer controlled kilns these folks cannot replicate the efforts of some drunk old glassblower blowing glass warmed by hickery, ash and apple wood[]


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

I would expect most modern art glass blowers are accustomed to creating freeblown items. Blowing in molds would require a different set of skills.  There is a lot of rhythm, precise timing, and team work involved in blowing glass.  It would likely take a good bit of practice to start producing acceptable bottles in these molds. 
 The fact that glass blowers were recruited from other factories rather than just plucking folks off the street and training them indicates it took time to gain the skill set.


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## kungfufighter (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> I would expect most modern art glass blowers are accustomed to creating freeblown items. Blowing in molds would require a different set of skills.  There is a lot of rhythm, precise timing, and team work involved in blowing glass.  It would likely take a good bit of practice to start producing acceptable bottles in these molds.
> The fact that glass blowers were recruited from other factories rather than just plucking folks off the street and training them indicates it took time to gain the skill set.


 
 Nodding in full agreement.


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## tigue710 (Jan 9, 2012)

Highly skilled to say the least!  So i wonder if Chris is on to something with the molds being kept warm?  this is the only way to enable the glass to "set right" so to say?  I wonder how the folks making the civil war reproduction bottles are doing it?  I was to believe they were replicating the process of early American glass houses, pontil and all?


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## kungfufighter (Jan 9, 2012)

Yes, that may be true but they (the folks making modern reproductions) are (I think) using molds made from different materials.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

http://compare.ebay.com/like/6280386824?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y


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## div2roty (Jan 9, 2012)

You guys is smart.  Me not.  Seriously, nice discussion.


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## andy volkerts (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
> 
> Yes, that may be true but they (the folks making modern reproductions) are (I think) using molds made from different materials.


 [8|]  Dont they make pretty good reproduction bottles at Colonial Williamsburg, I have heard that they have .........


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 9, 2012)

they made some decent repros years ago (1970s?). Thier current stuff looks a bit Walmart to me. 
 not handblown in molds.  They have an imported feel to them even though they imply they are made on site. 
 http://www.eparks.com/store/search.asp?keyword=Repro1Bottles     

 The Dog River repros were fairly realistic blown in molds. Not sure where they were done.


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## andy volkerts (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> they made some decent repros years ago (1970s?). Thier current stuff looks a bit Walmart to me.
> not handblown in molds.  They have an imported feel to them even though they imply they are made on site.
> ...


 [8D]  Yeah, I hink that from your link( which I looked at) it seems that a lot of their newer stuff is on e-bay!!!!


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## baltbottles (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  kungfufighter
> 
> Mark Vuono has a scroll flask mold that he has shared with some modern glassblowers and the results of their efforts have been surprising to say the least.  To date, none of the flasks have survived the annealing process and from the shards (yes, you read that correctly) it would seem that the blowers are unable to create an even gather, in that the pieces show a wide distribution of glass thickness.  Amazing that even with computer controlled kilns these folks cannot replicate the efforts of some drunk old glassblower blowing glass warmed by hickery, ash and apple wood[]


 
 I think another reason why these bottles may not be surviving is the glass chemistry between modern art glass and antique bottle glass. I don't think most modern art glass would be very well suited for mold blowing by hand. Also from the few videos and pictures of guys blowing bottles it looks like bottles were blown with the glass at a very high temperature and the glass still in a very liquid state.

 But I also agree it looks like it took years of practice by several people working together as a team to get the process down.

 This is a really great thread it kind of reminds me of people trying to figure out how the pyramids were built just we are doing it with antique bottles.

 My opinion is we need a bottle collector to set up a glass blowing studio and start experimenting. i'm sure after a few years of trial and error you could figure out how it was done.

 Jeff also what is mark's scroll flask mold made of and do you think you could get some pictures of it from him to post here. I'd love to see it.

 Chris


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 9, 2012)

> Someone posted a picture a year ago or so ago.


 
 LoL,...I just went looking for that pic before I read further....I posted a pic of it last year, but took a better pic when I was there at Corning w/ Penn Digger this year...since I went and dug it out of the files,...here it is.[]


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: baltbottles
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Really interesting info and ideas guys!...Thanks for the interesting post.


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## tigue710 (Jan 9, 2012)

Does anyone know if they've made any progress at the Coventry glass musem with glass blowing?  I know the they had planned on setting up a furnace and blowing glass


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## baltbottles (Jan 10, 2012)

The more I think about what I have read and what I believe I know about 18th and 19th century glass making the more I realize that the picture is very far from complete. Much of the process involved seem to have been lost to history and as such must be reinvented by the modern collector to offer a more complete understanding of how the bottles we collect were manufactured.

 The only way to do this is through experimentation based off of physical evidence present on the bottles themselves and through archaelolgy evidence from early glass houses. I think we may all be surprised at how complex the process of making glass and molds and blowing bottles actually is without modern equipment. This is likely why the secret of making glass was closely guarded...

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 10, 2012)

yes , I was going to mention that examining archeological digs and associated reports for glass houses may be one of your best sources of first hand data.

 I wonder if any diaries exist for glass house workers? People might have been more willing to put details in a private diary that they would not publish publicly. I wish they had more Library of Congress books digitized online. That's something I wouldnt mind paying more taxes for. Its a real pain to go there and track stuff down.

 Everyone here has different backgrounds and knowledge so pooling our information can often go quite far.  The hive brain[]


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## Plumbata (Jan 10, 2012)

Excellent stuff people.

 Joe thanks for the pic, do you have access to a picture of the back side of the Coventry mold?

 I've got a little theory going, hopefully some of you can flesh it out.

 The brass/bronze/bell-metal mold HAD to have been cast. It would make sense if the glassworks contracted with a foundry to create not just the raw mold, but also the more intensive section which creates the embossing. Bell-makers/founders were very experienced with mirroring text and it is likely that they took care of this issue for the glassworks before the days of slug-plates.

 Now, in the 1st quarter of the 19th century, what entity local to Coventry, CT would have the ability to cast a suitable mold? I'm thinking that the bronze used in bells would possess a melting point far lower than ideal, since it was upwards of 22% tin. In my youth I took a blowtorch to an ancient roman coin (trying to remove crust), and was perplexed when silvery beads of molten tin started issuing forth from microscopic pores in the coin. Lacking analytical data regarding the proportions of the ingredients used, I will just assume that actual bell-metal with high-tin would be avoided, as potential beads of molten tin flowing inside a bottle mold would be less than ideal.

 The data I desperately desire is an analysis of the metals used in early American brass/bronze cookware which was* intended* to be used at high temperatures. The bottle molds must have been made from a blend understood to withstand higher temperatures. We all have seen antique cast brass pots, pans, etc., but I have no knowledge of early American cookware foundries. Do any of you know about early eastern cast cookware? I'd wager that a cookware foundry created these molds, and a table of the alloy formulas used in the production of high-temp cookware back then would likely include the formula used for the creation of the mold. Do any of you have access to such data?

 Now, regarding the "warming" of the molds and the ideas postulated for and against this idea , I think that the properties of heat transfer were known to the glassworkers, and with their desire to be efficient and productive, the mold would not likely have been reheated between use, though I don't see why it wouldn't be heated before beginning production for the day, which is what I thought Chris was getting at.

 I want a picture of the backside in order to support or discard this next postulation; the thin-walled molds were likely housed within a larger insulated shell, perhaps stuffed with asbestos or filled with porous plaster of paris with a recess for the molds. This ability to maintain a reasonable running temperature would avoid the effects of super-cooling and the "locking-in" of fatal zones of stress in the glass; as indicated by Jeff. Since copper and its alloys are superior conductors of heat, insulation of some sort would be expected. The unusual posts and sockets on the rim of the mold look like they were intended to be joined with the other half more "directly" (versus pivoting in a sharp arc on a hinge attached to the 2 halves of the mold proper, if that explanation makes sense), and this would also support the idea that the mold was insulated somehow.

 Essentially, if we can hone-in on the composition of the mold we can better postulate how it was heated, insulated, used, etc.  More pictures of molds are in order.


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## baltbottles (Jan 10, 2012)

It looks like some research on metallurgy and foundry process may be in order. I will check the Sun paper and see if I can find anything about molds and brass foundries. 

 I'm sure someone could email corning and ask for pictures of the mold from all angles.

 I had never thought about the idea of enclosing the mold in an insulating hinged shell. This is a great idea and could be the solution to the problem with Mark's flask mold.

 Photos of his mold would also be helpful to determine if his mold had used such a shell.

 Chris


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 10, 2012)

the melting point of simple high tin bronze seems uncomfortably close to the temperature of the glass coming out of the pot.
 I'm not sure how much the gather cools down before it is blown. Probably not too much or they would have trouble filling embossing.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 10, 2012)

If someone wants to do some research a good source is the documents for Charles Yockel who was a mold maker by trade in Philada. Some of the docs sound interesting (like ones about molds returned because of problems)
 http://findingaid.winterthur.org/html/HTML_Finding_Aids/COL0481.htm


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## baltbottles (Jan 10, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> the melting point of simple high tin bronze seems uncomfortably close to the temperature of the glass coming out of the pot.
> I'm not sure how much the gather cools down before it is blown. Probably not too much or they would have trouble filling embossing.


 
 I don't think that is a problem because the glass may be at a working temperature of 2100F when blown but the mold may be at 700F the amount of heat energy transferred from the gather of glass to the mold still isn't enough to bring the mold to a point of melting. However if the process of blowing the bottles is fast enough to allow a heat build up the mold could quite possibly fail and melt.

 So perhaps these molds needed to be cooled off through out the day this could have been done simply by dowsing it with water. Again perhaps this rapid cooling of the mold is what occasionally caused molds to crack.

 There is way too much conjecture with this because we don't know how fast a bottle was made how many were made in a day at what temperature the mold was kept. Did they have to keep warming the mold due to cooling between each bottle blown or was the process fast enough to allow a heat build up possibly melting the mold. Causing the need for cooling throughout the day?

 A chemical analysis of the corning mold would go along way with helping this discussion. With a known melting point of an alloy experiments could be done to calculate heat lost or transfer from the blowing process. 

 Assuming a bottle a minute was blown I think a heat build up may well have been a problem with these early molds. Perhaps that is why later molds were cast iron and have a much heavier wall thickness and mass of metal. This would help withstand repeated heat build up and cooling throughout a day of blowing.

 Chris


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## kungfufighter (Jan 10, 2012)

George Foster (glassblower at the Granite Glass Company, Stoddard, NH) reported making 500 plus quart wines a DAY in his diary.  This info is included in the Granite Glass Co. sketch in American Bottles, Flasks and their Ancestry.

 Will try to get a photo of Mark's mold...


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## surfaceone (Jan 10, 2012)

For those interested in learning Glass blowing techniques, some classes:

 There are glass blowing classes offered in Oakland  @ The Crucible.

 I know nothing of the course work or contents, beyond what is available at these sites.

 Chicago Glassblowing -- @ Chicago Hot Glass.

 Boston Glassblowing Classes -- @ Diablo Glass School.

Dearborn Glass Academy sampler class.

 In Virginia, @ Oldway Art Center, Sperryville.

MIT students & Community.


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## RedGinger (Jan 10, 2012)

I wonder if the sunglasses are to protect their eyes from of course, any flying pieces, but also from the light?  Where is the Whitall Tatum factory?  Maybe I should know, but I don't know much about it.  I'm wondering where in NY the Lockport Glassworks was located.


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## RED Matthews (Jan 10, 2012)

Red Ginger    The Whitall Tatum factory was in New Jersey near Philadelphia PA.   Lockport is a town up near the Erie Canal and Syracuse.  It was a very successful glass house that made some neat green glass bottles.  RED Matthews


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## RED Matthews (Jan 10, 2012)

I am working on this review thread.  When I was with Thatchers I worked with most all of the foundries that made mold castings.    These included:   Kelly Foundry   Elkins,  West Virginia.                                 
                                           Binney Foudry  where they cast   
                                            Binneyâ€™s  DV bronze
                                            Binneyâ€™s  51 C  iron                               
                                                 Overmyer Mold Company,  Muncie Indiana  where they made                                                                         Mold iron, a bronze and other metal castings for the glass industry.      

 I havenâ€™t had time to work on my comments to review the first part of this thread.  Sorry.  RED Matthews


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## Plumbata (Jan 10, 2012)

I found Joe's thread, here are a few relevant images (thanks Joe!):







  Here is a scaled-down model of a glass-works that Joe posted. Looks more  TOC-ish and the model molds look like later cast iron ones, but I don't  see why similar devices couldn't have been used with interchangeable  brass molds in earlier years.






  Another idea is that the molds (molds plus shell) may have been hinged  along the bottom instead of the sides. I certainly don't have any  examples to study, but if any of you have some Lafayettes or other early  flasks, please check the thickness of the seam which goes across the  bottom and up the sides. If it doesn't vary much in thickness, as with  later blown bottles where the seam is thin on one side (hinge side) and  thicker on the opposing side, then we might assume that the molds were  used/operated in a different manner.

  I forget the correct terminology, but Copper alloys have a great  "capacity" for heat energy, and unless I'm mistaken the capacity is far  greater than the considerably less-dense glass. This, combined with the  efficiency of the heat-transfer or dissipation of the alloy I would  imagine that the entire mold would need to approach very near its  melting point before it would fail. Perhaps someone with a background in  physics can determine the heat capacity of a unit of copper(brass) versus the  energy in a unit of molten glass, and also the energy transferred at the  glass transition temperature between molten and solid states (assuming  there is a large amount of energy transferred at that stage, as in the  transition of ice at 32 degrees to water at 32 degrees).

  Perhaps the brass/bronze used would be similar in composition to alloyed  naval cannons? To draw this into an analogy to address Chris' points,  the gunners operating a cannon knew to let it rest to avoid overheating,  and we've heard of machine-gunners urinating on their weapons to  prevent or delay overheating. Just as the cannon crew knew the proper  interval between shots necessary to prevent overheating and failure, I'd  imagine that the glassworkers adhered to some sort of usage/rest  system, or if there was a huge order, could have used water to cool the  molds. Jeff's useful tidbit shows that 500+ quart bottles per day was  the norm, and for a considerably smaller bottle like the Lafayette the  number may be higher.

  If we assume 600 bottles per day, and a 12 hour workday, then that would  be 2 minutes per bottle. If the mold was allowed a minute between  removal of the previous bottle and introduction of a fresh gather then  I'd bet the mold would be able to cool quite sufficiently, perhaps even  with an interval of 20 or 30 seconds.

  If you look at the base of the Coventry mold you can see that it is  rectangular in profile. Perhaps this was exposed on the bottom of the  hypothetical shell and operated as a heat-sink, since the base is where  the majority of the heat-transfer from glass to metal would occur, as  this is generally where the thickest part of the bottle is.

  We really need some good shots of the superficially less interesting parts of the mold.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 10, 2012)

Glass blowers wear didymium lense glasses. They protect against UV, bright yellow , and IR (heat)


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## Plumbata (Jan 10, 2012)

> If we assume 600 bottles per day, and a 12 hour workday, then that would be 2 minutes per bottle. If the mold was allowed a minute between removal of the previous bottle and introduction of a fresh gather then I'd bet the mold would be able to cool quite sufficiently, perhaps even with an interval of 20 or 30 seconds.


 
 Silly me. It would be 50 bottles/hour, making it 1 minute and 12 seconds per full cycle. I still think this is more than enough time to allow for mold resting.


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## surfaceone (Jan 10, 2012)

Hello RED,

 Hope you're feeling about 110 percent.  I think Lockport may have made some other colors besides the celebrated Lockport Green. See Here.


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## Plumbata (Jan 10, 2012)

Nice info Red, thanks! It is interesting to know that even relatively recently Bronze (a special kind I guess?) was used in the glass industry. If you can dig up more info, or figure out the composition of the alloys, it would be much appreciated.


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## RED Matthews (Jan 10, 2012)

Well here is some more thoughts I need to throw in.  I think I had mentioned before that I made some molds for a test on an eight section IS glass machine making a wine bottle.  There was a mold of Binney's DV bronze, one of Binney's 51C iron, one made on Kelley #4 mold iron, one made of Nodular iron, one made of Overmyer's bronze and I would have to get into old notes to find the other metals.  The machine was run at various speeds to get good bottles from each metal.  The bottles were saved and evaluated for glass appearance and surface conditions.  We made quite a process study out of it.   I had the glass bottom plates marked so we could identify the metal relative to the bottles.  

 I made a ketchup bottle mold with an electro formed nickel and copper shell of a cavity.  We made glass but the cost was excessive.  We also made an mold for the Seagram's Ancient Age whiskey bottle that had cave mans petrological designs and a knurled cavity in between them, with no machining in the cavity, because the nickel and copper electroformed cavity shell was supported in an outer iron mold shell.  I still have one half of the mold in my collection.  I need to get a picture of it for you to see.  

 I got to do a lot of experiments with molds having aluminum injected in the iron cavities, and Malcomized iron cavities. 
 I had a lot of open studies going on to find improvements.   

 I am getting a kick out of everyone's participation in this thread.   RED Matthews


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## RED Matthews (Jan 10, 2012)

Yes   I know Lockport made other colors of glass.  They also ran a well controlled clean operation because their glass was always good looking stuff.  

 I have formulas for most of the mold alloys that were made while worked in the glass mold shop.   I can dig them out and list some of them.  .

 RED Matthews


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 10, 2012)

> Joe thanks for the pic, do you have access to a picture of the back side of the Coventry mold?
> 
> I've got a little theory going, hopefully some of you can flesh it out.


 
 No pics from the rear side Steven....I'd have liked to examine the mold in more detail, but the displays and atmosphere at Corning glass are such that I feel that it would have been seriously frowned upon for me to attempt to pick it up and turn it over  Also a majority of the displays were behind glass, (what else) [] I don't remember if the mold was or not.....Maybe if the right person were to ask the right person, they'd allow it...Red has some pretty extensive knowledge of metallurgy,and bottle molds,.... perhaps not as far back as to the dates in question here though....


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## Wheelah23 (Jan 10, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  JOETHECROW
> 
> Red has some pretty extensive knowledge of metallurgy,and bottle molds,....Â perhaps not as farÂ back asÂ to the dates in question here though....


 
 Geez, he ain't _that_ old! [8D]


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## baltbottles (Jan 10, 2012)

So we have a team of 3 people producing a bottle about every minute. I would think the time from when the gather is inserted into the mold and inflated would not be very long probably 10-15 seconds at most. I do agree that with these thin brass molds they may very well had enough time to air cool between blowing to keep from melting. But was this too much time for them to stay suffenctly warm? Or perhaps a bottle a minute to a minute and a half is the magic number allowing enough heat transfer to keep the mold warm without overheating it...

 If that is the case and considering a working batch temperature of 2100F And once we know the properties of some brass alloys we might be able to work out a probable operating temperature of a mold in use. I have a feeling that a good working temperature is around 600-700F. Another problem with a mold that is too hot is the glass may stick to its surface. And the bottle won't release properly. Which could seriously damage the mold. I have seen blow pipes with glass literally bonded to their tip. I assume this is due to being exposed to the extreme heat of the furnace. Was some form of release agent used to help prevent bottles from sticking to the mold? Perhaps powdered graphite?

 Chris


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## surfaceone (Jan 10, 2012)

> There was a mold of Binney's DV bronze, one of Binney's 51C iron, one made on Kelley #4 mold iron, one made of Nodular iron, one made of Overmyer's bronze and I would have to get into old notes to find the other metals.Â


 
 Hello RED,

 Sounds as if you're at the top of your game, again. I'm very pleased to see you so engaged. You're the only guy I know who can discuss "Malcomized iron cavities."

 I'm sorry to say, that all of the above is, I don't even know how many feet, over my head. Metallurgy makes my head swim.

 *********

 How's your glass chemistry equation working today?  [8D] I'm talking 19th Century production, like Lockport, Pittsburgh, Jersey, et al. Were there appreciably different batch glass "formulas" from area to area, for any given color?



> Yes   I know Lockport made other colors of glass.  They also ran a well controlled clean operation because their glass was always good looking stuff.


 
 Why is the Lockport Green so distinctive, compared to other green wares? Their Cobalt is pretty bold, as well. The West Coast guys are deservedly chauvinistic about Pacific Glass Works bottles and their clarity and depth of color. The West coast guys sometimes speak of the sand used as the "Secret ingredient." May some of that sand have been imported?

 What about 7 Up green, while we're at it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Chris got me thinking on this track when he said,



> I think another reason why these bottles may not be surviving is the glass chemistry between modern art glass and antique bottle glass. I don't think most modern art glass would be very well suited for mold blowing by hand.


 
 and then he said,



> The more I think about what I have read and what I believe I know about 18th and 19th century glass making the more I realize that the picture is very far from complete. Much of the process involved seem to have been lost to history and as such must be reinvented by the modern collector to offer a more complete understanding of how the bottles we collect were manufactured.
> 
> The only way to do this is through experimentation based off of physical evidence present on the bottles themselves and through archaelolgy evidence from early glass houses. I think we may all be surprised at how complex the process of making glass and molds and blowing bottles actually is without modern equipment. This is likely why the secret of making glass was closely guarded...


 
 Would the early glass houses have had chemists on staff to adjust the batch? Or would that have been the purview of the chief glassmaker? Would they have used solid moulds like Matt's






 as mould warmers and/or quality / color control tools?

 How much of an effect on the bottles would the quality / chemical composition of the sand have had? Was it they key ingredient of Bixby or Ball Blue? Was wood ash critical?

 RED, you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about bottle making. Can you shed some light on my poorly asked questions? If, so, please give it the slightly smarter than a 5th Grader treatment. [8D]

 We just no longer see the range of color, the thickness of the glass, the remarkable mould making artistry in today's glass objects. We're poorer for it. T'is a wonder to dig or find the mysteriously wonderful glass objects of an earlier time.




Forest glass


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 10, 2012)

> We just no longer see the range of color, the thickness of the glass, the remarkable mould making artistry in today's glass objects. We're poorer for it. T'is a wonder to dig or find the mysteriously wonderful glass objects of an earlier time.


 
 Best I've heard it put.


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## RED Matthews (Jan 10, 2012)

For baltbottles question.  Yes cavity lubricants were used.  

   You asked about mold swabbing and release agents.  Again based on what was done when I worked at Thatcher Glass.  There was a family of glass people that were key members of Thatcher Glass operation.  One of the family, RED Listen â€“ I think it was;  had a swab making shop in NY State.  These wire handle tools had a clump of cotton strings in the working end of it.  It was kept in a box having dry powder sulfur in it.  The cotton head was twisted in the powder and then the machine operator would hit it into the mold cavity where the glass was sticking or not releasing right.       The machine operators would get white gym sneakers and cut the souls into strips of the white rubber that they could hold in a set of tongs and rub in an open mold cavity where the glass wasnâ€™t releasing properly.     There were three or four companies that also sold the glass factories special oils that were used as swabbing aids.     At todayâ€™s machine operating speeds, this practice would be difficult.   RED Matthews


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 10, 2012)

> Why is the Lockport Green so distinctive, compared to other green wares? Their Cobalt is pretty bold, as well. The West Coast guys are deservedly chauvinistic about Pacific Glass Works bottles and their clarity and depth of color. The West coast guys sometimes speak of the sand used as the "Secret ingredient." May some of that sand have been imported?


 
 Surf,...great question (although I realize it wasn't directed to me...) Still got me curious enough to reread Bill Lindsey's explanation...

 In order to create other colors, the iron needs to be variably neutralized and appropriate colorizing agents or compounds added to achieve the desired color.  For instance, cobalt oxide added in proper quantities to a properly prepared glass batch results in a distinctly intense blue as shown in the bottle to the left.  In fact, this color is known as "cobalt blue" in the glass manufacturing world (Scholes 1952). 
 Glass composition formulas were (and probably still are) closely held glassmaker secrets as the experience of extensive trial and error experimentation in glass making was not readily shared with others.  Variations in glass color resulted from a myriad of different causes including the strata of the sand source, the mineral in the soil of the of the trees burned to produce "potash" (an "flux" alternative to soda), and many others known and unknown (Toulouse 1969a).  Many colorizing compounds work in different ways depending on whether the glass pot environment is oxidizing or reducing (Tooley 1953; Kendrick 1968). 
 However, discussing the simple addition of chemical additives makes any discussion of glass making and glass coloring too simplistic.  Glass chemistry is a complex science that is beyond the goals of this website and will not be pursued here.  For one who wishes to pursue this subject, Tooley's (editor & one of the chapter authors) 1953 book _"Hand Book of Glass Manufacture Volume 1 - A book of reference for the plant executive, technologist and engineer" _is recommended though possibly hard to find.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 10, 2012)

> Another problem with a mold that is too hot is the glass may stick to its surface. And the bottle won't release properly. Which could seriously damage the mold. I have seen blow pipes with glass literally bonded to their tip. I assume this is due to being exposed to the extreme heat of the furnace. Was some form of release agent used to help prevent bottles from sticking to the mold? Perhaps powdered graphite?


 
 I expect this was part of "learning how to do it right".  The mold needed to be not too cold and not too hot to work well. 
 Graphite was long known as a high temp release agent. They might have used it starting up the mold but once they got going it seems like it would take too long to keep applying very often...if thats what you were implying.
 Although you do see glass blowers rolling gathers on graphite blocks, not sure if any would stay on the glass as the pipe is stuck in the mold?? I doubt they would want anything mucking up the mold walls.
 I was wondering how in the world they kept vent holes from getting clogged. They seem like they would be real trouble if they glass was too hot/fluid .


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## Oldihtractor (Jan 10, 2012)

some glass blowing demos here  the guy commentating lives not far from me ...  they also did some flasks and some insect destroyers at the btsto show 2 years ago.. 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz05vPvIrCA


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## JOETHECROW (Jan 10, 2012)

Pretty cool that they have the portable glass furnace on the back of that truck trailer combo...


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## RedGinger (Jan 10, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RED Matthews
> 
> Red Ginger    The Whitall Tatum factory was in New Jersey near Philadelphia PA.   Lockport is a town up near the Erie Canal and Syracuse.  It was a very successful glass house that made some neat green glass bottles.  RED Matthews


 
 Thanks, Red.  I know where Lockport is, just wondered where the site of their glassworks might have been.  I love Lockport glass!  Really beautiful.


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## RedGinger (Jan 10, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> Glass blowers wear didymium lense glasses. They protect against UV, bright yellow , and IR (heat)


 
 Thanks for answering that, Matt.  I would not like to hear accounts of the effects on glassblowers' eyes in the past.  I bet there are some horror stories there.


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## RedGinger (Jan 10, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Wheelah23
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 LOL!


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## tigue710 (Jan 10, 2012)

whew... this one took off...!  As Chris said there was a team involved in each bottle blown.  The gaffers job was to collect the gather, insert it into the mold and expand.  When he was done expanding the bottle in the mold it was removed and handed off for finishing, where upon he took a new blow pipe, collected a gather and started over.  As this was going on he had a boy who operated the mold, and a few more boys who removed the bottle from the pipe, finished the lip and brought the bottle to the annealing ovens.  Exactly how many people it took or were employed in the process varied from glass house to glass house while modifications such as a pedal operated mold, snap case and hand tooling the neck into a lip form changed the process dramatically.  

 That said the rate at which bottles were being blown in the mold is about 1 every minute on average through the middle to late period of the 19th century.  I believe it is possible that the early bronze molds were insulated, but also a factor for the earlier molds is that working temptures could have cooler because of heating methods and there might have been only one or two workers blowing and finishing a bottle, which would have gave the mold more time to cool...

 As for cooling the mold or using a release agent in every litho or etching Ive seen of early glass house interiors there are always a few buckets around close to the mold?  I wonder what they held and if there was a direct relation to the mold? 

 Its likely that a mold material was chosen because of its ability to maintain operating temperatures with accord to the rate of production rather then altering the rate of production and cooling and heating the molds to comply with the restraints of the mold.  Im sure the alloy chosen was specifically designed and used for glass blowing if the margin for success is really as slender as we believe.  I do remember reading but can not remember where that the mold makers were highly reguarded and kept secret, and there were cases of mold makers being bribed away or stolen by competing glass houses...


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## tigue710 (Jan 10, 2012)

did anyone else pick up on how they treated the pontil on that lily pad pitcher in the video?  They rolled it creating what looked like would leave a tubular pontil mark?   very interesting...


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## epackage (Jan 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RED Matthews
> 
> I am working on this review thread.Â  When I was with Thatchers I worked with most all of the foundries that made mold castings.  Â  These included:Â Â  Kelly FoundryÂ Â  Elkins,Â  West Virginia.  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Binney FoudryÂ  where they cast
> ...


 Hi Red  a far 

 J


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## epackage (Jan 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  RED Matthews
> 
> I am working on this review thread.Â  When I was with Thatchers I worked with most all of the foundries that made mold castings.  Â  These included:Â Â  Kelly FoundryÂ Â  Elkins,Â  West Virginia.  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Â  Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Binney FoudryÂ  where they cast
> ...


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## epackage (Jan 11, 2012)

dE


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## kungfufighter (Jan 11, 2012)

If anyone finds themselves in the North Country you can watch glassblowers up close and personal like at Simon Pearce Studios.


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## saratogadriver (Jan 11, 2012)

Jeff, is Simon Pearce back up and running?   I understood that they had the Ottaquechee right through their furnaces during Irene, and sustained serious damage...    I'd love to spend a day watching them work sometime.

 Jim G





> ORIGINAL: kungfufighter
> 
> If anyone finds themselves in the North Country you can watch glassblowers up close and personal like at Simon Pearce Studios.


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## KentOhio (Jan 12, 2012)

I read a glassblower's diary once. It was from the late 1860s. Unfortunately it contained no glass secrets. All it had was when he woke up each day, how the weather was, and I think he went to a dance one Saturday night and played baseball another day. 
 I have some molds and have experimented with them a little. I've used aluminum and iron. The aluminum mold I used three times to make a bottle with a rest of about 20 minutes in-between each bottle. Each turned out better than the last, each time with less whittle and more definition to the design. The iron mold I used three times to press an object, with about 5 minutes of rest in-between each piece. The first was whittled and didn't fill completely, the second was pretty good, and the third looked the best but nearly stuck to the mold. I have the impression in my mind that molds need to be the right temperature between too chilled with no detail, and too hot where the glass sticks. Iron pontils, after all, are iron too, that's stuck to the glass. 
 I read somewhere that Fenton's snap cases were brushed with lime to prevent sticking. 
 I also saw a patent from the 1880s or so where someone had the idea to have a core of graphite-rich iron as the interior of a cast iron mold. 
 Molds of the 1850s seem to have been thin like the Coventry mold but iron like later molds. The Philadelphia museum of art has some on its website, if you search. They have a Jenny Lind mold, barrel bitters, booze, and some others I remember.


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## epackage (Jan 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Either my acct. got hacked or I was "sleep websurfing"....WTH is that ?????[:-]


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## epackage (Jan 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## epackage (Jan 12, 2012)

Sorry Red, not sure what I was responding too or doing but I was asleep when those posts were made and have no idea what the heck happened...Jim


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## baltbottles (Jan 12, 2012)

> Philadelphia museum of art





> ORIGINAL:  KentOhio
> 
> I read a glassblower's diary once. It was from the late 1860s. Unfortunately it contained no glass secrets. All it had was when he woke up each day, how the weather was, and I think he went to a dance one Saturday night and played baseball another day.
> I have some molds and have experimented with them a little. I've used aluminum and iron. The aluminum mold I used three times to make a bottle with a rest of about 20 minutes in-between each bottle. Each turned out better than the last, each time with less whittle and more definition to the design. The iron mold I used three times to press an object, with about 5 minutes of rest in-between each piece. The first was whittled and didn't fill completely, the second was pretty good, and the third looked the best but nearly stuck to the mold. I have the impression in my mind that molds need to be the right temperature between too chilled with no detail, and too hot where the glass sticks. Iron pontils, after all, are iron too, that's stuck to the glass.
> ...


 
 Those molds are amazing.

 It sounds like from your glass blowing experience the mold needs to be at the proper temperature for bottles to be correct. Can we see some pictures of your molds and of the pieces you have blown.

 Chris


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## RED Matthews (Jan 12, 2012)

Hi epackage - I don't know what happened  It just didn't cut and paste properly.   I went on to explain about a couple other foundries and all I can say is that sometimes when I cut and paste from Microsoft Word to the control V for these forum notes - it does strange things. 
 Sorry    RED Matthews


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## RED Matthews (Jan 12, 2012)

Hi,  I didn't find the original draft.   Here is another list I did find.

     Mold Equipment Metals.doc 
     BinneyDV metal:        15% Ni,  12% Al,  6% Zn. & Balance Cu.    
    Binney Foundry         51C metal: A mold iron that  had 1/8th bronze in the melt.                                       
                                     And had a secret annealing process used.    
    Kelley  Foundry         # 4 Mold Iron                                       
                                     Nodular Iron     
    Overmyer Mold Company    Mold Iron                                                
                                                Bronze     
    Coast Metals             50 B castings and powder.    
     Dameron Alloy Foundries    HR metal  Rc 30  40  50  w/ some age hardening alloy ??     
     Wall Colmony Company      Cast nickel alloys and powder fed metals.  

 For several years I sold special cast alloys to the worlds glass industry for DAMERON Alloy Foundries.
 RED Matthews


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## tigue710 (Jan 12, 2012)

> (in reply to kungfufighter)
> [Send Private Message]





> ORIGINAL:  KentOhio
> 
> I read a glassblower's diary once. It was from the late 1860s. Unfortunately it contained no glass secrets. All it had was when he woke up each day, how the weather was, and I think he went to a dance one Saturday night and played baseball another day.
> I have some molds and have experimented with them a little. I've used aluminum and iron. The aluminum mold I used three times to make a bottle with a rest of about 20 minutes in-between each bottle. Each turned out better than the last, each time with less whittle and more definition to the design. The iron mold I used three times to press an object, with about 5 minutes of rest in-between each piece. The first was whittled and didn't fill completely, the second was pretty good, and the third looked the best but nearly stuck to the mold. I have the impression in my mind that molds need to be the right temperature between too chilled with no detail, and too hot where the glass sticks. Iron pontils, after all, are iron too, that's stuck to the glass.
> ...


 

 A lot of answers there, thanks for bringing it up!  Here is a link to the barrel bitters mold, which is known as a treadle mold, and was operated by a single person with the use of a pedal to open and close the mold...

http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/50524.html


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## KentOhio (Jan 13, 2012)

Chris, since you asked for pictures... 
 Here's my aluminum mold. I made it in a college foundry class in 2006 and have only made 3 bottles with it. It's cast from a Clevenger scroll flask, and I added some extra embellishments.


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## KentOhio (Jan 13, 2012)

Here's the third bottle made, the one with the best impression.


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## KentOhio (Jan 13, 2012)

Here's the base. It's still a pretty badly made bottle, haha, but neat nonetheless.


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## surfaceone (Jan 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  KentOhio
> 
> Here's the base. It's still a pretty badly made bottle, haha, but neat nonetheless.


 
*Bravo Brian!*

 I trust you got an "A" in Foundry, and a definite "A+" in bottle blowing. Well done, sir. Thanks for showing us.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 13, 2012)

> Here's the third bottle made, the one with the best impression.


 
 in the year 2099 collectors will see that bottle for sale on GooglBay for 10,000 Chinese plastic dollars and argue about its origins...


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