# Ward's Orange Crush by Alco Bottling?



## Canadacan (Jun 2, 2015)

I need some help to authenticate these bottles, or more so documentation from some online source that would reveal a little more information on this Bottler ...someone in the collecting field is questing the authenticity of them...He says " I really think that they are not authentic" I believe beyond a shadow of doubt they are real. The question is did Alco-Nevin Frank Co. bottle Ward's Orange Crush at this time? He claims to his knowledge that it was bottled in Eureka,California by Ernst-Delaney, in Yakima, Washington by Cascade Bottling and in Chicago by Orange-Crush Ltd., I'm pretty sure it was bottled by more than just three bottlers otherwise they would have never succeeded! ...I have a couple of other supporting photo's to add later if needed. I would think the Alco Label on the bottom was just extra advertising for them. [attachment=11303567_480057918.6780_267849818_n.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 2, 2015)

This is the Ward's Crush's with the group of other Alco soda products....note there is another bottle Concorde ????.. something? with the same Alco bottom label as the Ward's Crush's. If any of you are members of Soda Bottles Collectors group on FB you may have seen this photo. [attachment=11164827_474024109...623344986627_n.jpg]


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## carling (Jun 3, 2015)

Don't know anything about Orange Crush or Alco, but do you have a photo of the backs where you can see through the glass and check out how these labels were attached?  Might be able to tell by how they were glued, if they look original to the bottle or someone slapped them on yesterday.  The label conditions do look age appropriate. From your photos I can't make out a city mentioned on the labels.  Googling shows Alco Bottling Nevin-Frank Co. of Butte, Montana.  There is one that sold with a label on an amber bottle that can be viewed on Worthpoint, but you have to be a member to see the price. Does the seller say where or how they were found?  Looks like someone had to find a crate of them.  Would be nice to see the crate.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 3, 2015)

The earliest date I have seen for *Nevin-Frank Bottling *of Butte, Montana is *1921*                                According to these newspaper articles/ads, Nevin-Frank had bottling facilities in ...                                                                        Butte, Montana (Parent Company Location)                                                                       Billings, Montana                                                                       Great Falls, Montana                                                                       Missoula, Montana                                                                       Pocatello, Idaho [ Attachments ] 1.  The Billings Gazette ~ Billings, Montana ~ June 23, 1926 ~ Billings opening - No mention of Orange Crush2.  The Billings Gazette ~ Billings, Montana ~ June 23, 1926 ~ Same page/same date as above 3.  Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ April 30, 1937 ~ Orange Crush They were definitely bottling Orange Crush in the krinkly bottle at least as early as 1937, but I'm not sure if they bottled Ward's Orange Crush with the paper labels, and if they did, I'm not sure when. But if they did, it must have been later than 1926. ( I'm not sure when the Ward's Orange Crush paper labels began and ended )


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## Canadacan (Jun 3, 2015)

carling the city on the Alco labels is Butte MT. I'll have the bottles in hand soon and inspect the backs. No history on the find other than they came out of MT. I had seen a crate on the net but cant find it now...It's a 1940's crate that showed....I think Franks Beverages?...and it said right on the crate Formerly known as Nevin-Frank Co. Bob thanks so much for digging those up!....I would suspect my bottles have to be from before the expansion...the early 20's....I think by the time they expanded the Krinkly bottles were being used, being that the patent on them was 1920 and then taking into consideration that many bottlers used bottles as long as they could. Ward's paper labels were used from 1916-20. The 1937 ad is pretty strong evidence to suggest that they were involved with bottling Ward's Crush.... at least I know now that they bottled Orange Crush.The second document sadly does not show Ward's Crush on it but that Advertisement was to solely promote Alco right?


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## Eric (Jun 3, 2015)

Wow... I hope it turns out well for you.. those look awesome.. what a great find.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Based on what I've been seeing, there appears to be a grey area between the time when the Ward's Orange Crush paper labels were discontinued and the time when Alco/Nevin-Frank bottling was established, which suggest the possibility the Alco/Nevin-Frank paper label 'might' have been added to the Ward's Orange Crush bottle afterwards.                                                                                *?* 
http://www.metnews.com/articles/2006/reminiscing052506.htm 1906-1916 Orange Crush/Ward's Orange Crush

http://www.angelfire.com/yt/soda/Rosman-OC-amber.html  1910-1920 Ward's Orange Crush era

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/advertising/orange-crush   1920 - Ward's paper labels discontinued

https://goo.gl/KmiSoj  1921 Nevin-Frank Patent/Trademark

https://goo.gl/dY7drb  1921 Alco Nevin-Frank Patent/Trademark

https://goo.gl/wQwG18  1922 Re-ly-on Bottler Magazine


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Or possibly vice versa and a Ward's Orange Crush paper label was added to a bottle embossed with Butte, Montana that had a Alco/Nevin-Frank label on it.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Question ... Why does the 1926 Alco/Nevin-Frank advertisement include various brands of soda but not Orange Crush? (And yet it does include a brand called Orangekist)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Here's a good example of the grey area I referred to. Because this Norman Rockwell advertising poster for Nevin-Frank says "Ward's" Orange Crush on it, it's natural to assume that Nevin-Frank bottled it under that name during the Ward's Orange Crush era of the teens. However, notice it depicts a krinkly bottle and not a paper label bottle. The description did not include an exact date, but they guessed the poster to be from the 1940s, which I question and do not think was that late. I'm thinking its from the 1920s or 1930s. Norman Rockwell's first Saturday Evening Post cover was in 1916, which is when his career took off.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Canadacan: Have you checked the bases on your bottles for a makers mark and date code? If they are Owens-Illinois bottles and have a mark similar to this ... *<(I)> *... then they were made sometime after 1929. Owen-Illinois was established in 1929. I can't say for certain, but I doubt that *Ward's* Orange Crush labels, or any type of paper label, was still being used on Orange Crush bottles as late as 1929. That's about nine years after the krinkly bottle was introduced.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

P.S. In other words, if the bottles with Ward's Orange Crush paper labels were made by Owens-Illinois, then I am currently of the opinion the paper labels are not authentic to the bottles and were added at some later date.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Additionally ... I hope to eventually find confirmation, but its starting to look as if Alco/Nevin-Frank Bottling didn't start to bottle Orange Crush until the 1930s.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Ok things are smoking[] here Bob! A huge help is that advertisement, first off I knew it was not 40's or 30's in fact it's Copyright © 1921 The Orange Crush Company. You can see the Ward's on the bottle.[attachment=1921-Norman-Rockwe... Crush Company.jpg] Interesting notes: The Re-ly-on Bottler article states 'manufacture of sixteen products' in 1921The 1926 ad shows only 14 products....it makes sense to me they would not list a National brand, that advertising would have been separate. This ad shows they were the State Distributor.....question :before the expansion in 1926?...must have been unless they used this ad into the mid 20's. But most importantly it establishes that Nevin-Frank bottled and distributed Ward's Orange Crush!Maybe it would be reasonable to assume they used it for several years after the copy right date. I know one of the bottles is embossed Nevin-Frank / Butte Mont. on the shoulder ... the other bottle I can not tell. I do not have the bottles in hand yet but will be examining them when they arrive.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Canadacan: Where did you find the Copyright © 1921 The Orange Crush Company. for the cardboard sign, and do you know what aspect of it applies to 1921?  Its possible the 1921 refers to some aspect of the copyright and not necessarily when the sign was produced/printed. Please clarify if you can - thanks.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Additionally ... I hope to eventually find confirmation, but its starting to look as if Alco/Nevin-Frank Bottling didn't start to bottle Orange Crush until the 1930s.


Bob you bring me up![]...then you bring me down[]......If those bottles turn out to be newer than expected it'll have been a major disappointment. It's really hard to believe those labels because they are the first seen (I believe) in conjunction with a Bottlers label. I always like to reverese  things... if someone posed the question: I wonder if Nevin-Frank Bottled Ward's Orange Crush with paper labels?.... Hmmm I don't know but here is a bottle!.. X2...[]


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Canadacan: Where did you find the Copyright © 1921 The Orange Crush Company. for the cardboard sign, and do you know what aspect of it applies to 1921?  Its possible the 1921 refers to some aspect of the copyright and not necessarily when the sign was produced/printed. Please clarify if you can - thanks.


Came from Best Norman Rockwell Art.com....that's what the picture has watermarked. On the site all Crush advertising was under the 1921 section. I get what your saying most of these advertisements were used for several years after.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Canadacan: It is not my intent to bring you down or bum you out, but I will bet dimes-to-donuts your bottles turn out to be made by Owens-Illinois sometime after 1930  []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Here's one of the reasons why I say the bottles were made by Owens-Illinois after 1930 ... 1.  Front2.  Back3.  Base (But admit I'm only about 99.99% sure that's an Owens-Illinois mark)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Side-by-side comparison of embossed shoulder ... 1.  Canadacan's bottle2.  Owens-Illinois bottle


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Well I hope it's just the Diamond I mark for Illinois Glass Co.....for my sake! [&:]Yes I seen that bottle>>> but it's so distorted...we'll have to wait and see I guess and then go from there.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Speaking of a Alco/Nevin-Frank bottle with the I-in-a-diamond Illinois Glass Company mark (pre 1929), here's one currently on eBay ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BUTTE-NEVIN-FRANK-ALCO-Montana-Soda-Bottle-RARE-/151629431178?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234dd1818a 1.  Front2.  Base Plus ... 3.  What I believe to be the Owens-Illinois mark for comparison


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

That's a nice bottle!....And speaking of bottles, In that Alco advertisement they mentioned 'Oh Boy' well here it is from the same lot as the Ward's Crush. [attachment=Montana Sodas2.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

I agree the "Oh-Boy" brand was included in the 1926 newspaper article - but its still possible that someone stuck an older label on a newer bottle. For me it all hinges on the dates the bottles themselves were actually made. If Illinois Glass, then 1929 or earlier. If Owens-Illinois, then 1930 or later.                                                                                ~ * ~                                                         ~  Side topic for future reference  ~  I haven't been able to find the exact date, but sometime in the 1930s or early 1940s, Mr. Frank bought out Mr. Nevin and started "*Frank Bottling Works*" 1.  Notice how similar the Nevin-Frank bottle on the left is to the Frank Bottling Works bottle on the right     (The description did not indicate a date for either bottle)2.  The Montana Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ October 1, 1941 ~ Successor to Nevin-Frank3.  Frank Bottling Works crate - Successor To Nevin-Frank                    (I'm not sure if its J.H. Harkens, Harmens, or some other spelling on the end of the crate)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Notice the Nevin-Frank bottle on the right has a "Priof" finish/lip                                                            Notice below where it says ... 1.   development of the "Priof" method of bottle finish by the *Illinois Glass Company * 2.  "This finish was *not being offered* in the 1920 _Illinois Glass Company_ catalog so must have been      invented/patented shortly thereafter..." "PRIOF"  Closure/Finish  The  "PRIOF" closure is actually a finish variation for the crown cap  intended to make it easier to remove the cap in that it could be "pried off"  with a non-standard opener without breaking the bottle.  Paul & Parmalee  (1973) describe this finish and origin quite well and are quoted below:[blockquote]_One of the last minor changes or  variations of the crown closure was the development of the "Priof" method of  bottle finish by the _Illinois Glass Company_.  The crown bottle,  appearing in the early 1920s, had a projecting ledge below the lip of the crown  which assisted the consumer in opening the bottle.  By using the ledge as a  point of leverage, one could easily pry off the cap by using a knife, key, coin  or any flat piece of metal.  One needed only to insert the lever between  the ledge and the cap and twist.  Although this type of bottle finish was  used sporadically through the years, it never became popular enough to dominate  the market.  However, its major advertising feature was that it  substantially reduced the number of broken and chipped bottles which resulted  from the use of various unconventional openers._​[/blockquote]The "ledge" is visible in the image just above the  "PRIOF" embossing; in fact, the embossing is on the outside face of the ledge.   This finish was usually (always?) embossed with _REGISTERED PATENTED "PRIOF"_ horizontally on the lower part of the finish, as shown in the image above.   This finish was not being offered in the 1920 _Illinois Glass Company_ catalog so must have been invented/patented shortly thereafter as noted by Paul & Parmalee above (IGCo. 1920; Paul & Parmalee 1973).  It appears that this  finish/closure was by far most commonly used on Citrate of Magnesia bottles made  during the 1920s and 1930s, though undoubtedly saw some other use as a beverage  finish/closure.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Hey yes I noticed that bottle crate before!  That Nevin-Frank bottle you just posted is PRIOF!!! that makes it an  *Illinois Glass Company bottle. *Pre 1930 then. []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Canadacan said:
			
		

> That Nevin-Frank bottle you just posted is PRIOF!!! that makes it an  *Illinois Glass Company bottle. *Pre 1930 then. []



Yeppers, except your Orange Crush paper label bottle isn't a Priof. But I agree, it does confirm that some of the Nevin-Frank bottles were made by Illinois-Glass prior to 1929.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Gesh 16 min. latter and you can't edit!...that drives me nutz! Anyways I remember you posted the Illinois glass catalog on my Crush bottle post and it stated it was new for 1926 I think.....I was able to date that Crush bottle to 1927.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

Here's the link and a page from the 1926 Illinois Glass catalog where it describes the Priof finish as "new"                                                    (Scroll to Soda, Beer & Water Bottles - Page 154)                                                          http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm


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## hemihampton (Jun 4, 2015)

Wonder if the same Frank made these Soda cans? LEON.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Bob Thanks again for posting the catalog...really neat to see the other soda bottles in there too! Really appreciate all your hard work. The best today was you finding that original Ward's Crush with Nevin-Frank Co. ....that answered the most important question did Alco Nevin-Frank Co. bottle Ward's Orange Crush?Another thing I noticed was many of the advertising from 1923 say Ward's on the print but the bottle depicted is not a Ward's bottle.There are no Telephone directories to see if Nevin-Frank Co. just happened to be around a bit earlier than 1921...I wonder why?...was that because of the pandemic that hit Butte in 1918-19?...I could not make out that trade mark registration you posted for 1921...but we have no incorporation date right...so there is a good chance they were there in Butte before 1921.


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

hemihampton said:
			
		

> Wonder if the same Frank made these Soda cans? LEON.


Leon I'm not sure?...but possible.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2015)

I agree the proof of the pudding will be determined by the dates on the bottles themselves. In the meantime, its advertisements like the one below, plus other references I've seen, that lead me to believe the transition from paper labels to the patented Orange Crush fully embossed bottle occurred almost overnight. When I search the newspaper archives from 1920 there isn't a single ad or article that mentions anything about Orange Crush's new bottle. But in the 1921 newspapers there are dozens of ads about their new bottle. Notice in the attached ad where it says Orange Crush is "*only*" available in the crinkly bottle. (So what happened to the paper label bottles?) By the way, all of the original ads use the word "Crinkly" with a 'C' and not "Krinkly" with a 'K' as Michael Rosman does on his website. (just saying) 1.  Bottle Patent ~ 19202.  Ad from ... The Atlanta Constitution ~ Atlanta, Georgia ~ May 26, 1921


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## Canadacan (Jun 4, 2015)

Yes I agree that's how they advertised it being available in 1921 but just really wonder how much leniency the Crush corporation granted bottlers when it came time to switch? That would be a huge cost to change over bottles right away one would think. There seems to be some overlap with advertising....hey found this just for you!...lol[] [attachment=10945829_1_l.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

I was curious about the spelling of Crinkly vs. Krinkly, so I took a little detour and discovered ...                                        1.  The earliest use of Crinkly is found in the 1921 ads                                      2.  There is no use of Krinkly in the 1921 ads                                      3.  The earliest use of Krinkly is found in the 1922 ads                                      4.  Crinkly is used more often than Krinkly until about 1925                                      5.  Starting around 1925 Krinkly is used more often than Crinkly                                      6.  By 1928 Crinkly is seldom used with Krinkly being dominant The majority of the ads appear to have originated from the parent company that were distributed to the various bottlers. The two shown below are identical except for the newspapers / locations they appeared in. It appears the use of Crinkly at the onset in 1921 was intentional and originated from the parent company. I do not know why it gradually morphed into Krinkly, but that too seems to have originated from the parent company and was intentional. [ Attachments ]  Identical Ad ~ Different locations ~ Both use Crinkly ~ Except for the locations, I have seen at least a dozen like it, all of which are from 1922.   1.  The Daily Republican ~ Monongahela, Pennsylvania ~ August 23, 19222.  The Reidsville Review ~ Reidsville, North Carolina ~ August 11, 1922


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

Has anyone ever heard of this brand? Neither have I until now. I do not know the date, nor anything else about it except that its from Queensland, Australia ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

Canadacan: Earlier you mentioned something about directories. This is a page from a *1932 *Montana Manufacturers Directory and list several beverage bottlers. Notice the only bottlers of Orange Crush at that time are ...                                                                 1.  Anaconda                                                                2.  Coca Cola, Billings                                                                3.  Bozeman Bottling                                                     But for Alco / Nevin-Frank, all it shows is ...                                                                 1.  Alco Beverages                                                                2.  Techo Ginger Ale Its highly possible the directory is incomplete and the various bottlers could very well have bottled brands not listed. But I still have to wonder why it shows Orange Crush for some of the bottlers but not for Alco / Nevin-Frank?  I'll do some double checking, but as it stands now the earliest date I can find for when Alco / Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush is 1937.  (That is unless I missed something I forgot about)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

I'm still checking, but its ads like this that make me question when Nevin-Frank first started bottling Orange Crush. Perhaps this ad only list the brands that were on sale during that particular week, but I still wonder why it doesn't list Orange Crush? Is it possibly because they weren't bottling Orange Crush at the time? By 1935 Orange Crush was well known and you'd think they would list it if they sold it.  ???    From ... Montana Butte Standard  ~  Butte, Montana  ~  June 28, *1935*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

Try as I have, I just cannot find a listing that shows Nevin-Frank bottled/sold Orange Crush any earlier than *1937*. I am reposting this ad from 1937 to emphasize the numerous uses of the word "*new*"  As we know, Orange Crush made its major debut in 1916, so I'd say there was very little that was new about it 1937, which was 21 years after its 1916 debut. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but to me the wording suggest Orange Crush was new to Nevin-Frank and Butte, Montana and was possibly just introduced into the market area in 1937. Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ April 30, *1937*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2015)

P.S. Maybe they are talking about a "new" formula for Orange Crush, except I can find no evidence to support that Orange Crush was reformulated in 1937.


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## Canadacan (Jun 5, 2015)

Inserting history on the use of 'Crinkly' vs 'Krinkly'  And that funny that you posted that Krinkly Lime label, I had run acrosss that yesterday and had wondered about it? I believe it was just a lime cordial....thought it was made up, guess it's a facsimile of the original label. I suppose you have seen the Ward's labels that have been circulating that are from the UK?....nice labels, thought about picking some up. Now those two Identical newsprint adds from 1922 sparked a couple of other interesting things...that one of them was distributed by the Coca-Cola company. But what really caught my eye is the fine print show head quarters of Chicago, Winnipeg, London. I thought Crush in Canada was HQ'd out of Toronto as my Ward's Crowns show...guess not in the beginning! I know in my area (Vancouver BC) Orange Crush Bottling Co. first year of being listed is in the 1921 directory. Yes it's too bad we don't have access to more of the Butte Directories....I suppose the Butte-Silver Bow Public Archives may have info. Also I did find somewhere. ..University of MT had a list of directories, missing many years...like 1919-23...I think they had 1924 but I don't think this stuff is available online...must not be digitized?


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## Canadacan (Jun 6, 2015)

Well to further document things I found this letter dated 1923 from ebay and I'll post it for educational purposes only.Just as I had suspected the Orange Crush Company did not impose a strict compliance to change overnight to the Krinkly bottle, like I questioned before that would have been at a great cost for the bottler and if they tried to impose an immediate change over I suspect some bottlers would have just up and dropped the product altogether. I'm sure the corporation encouraged bottlers to switch though.It seems the the documented or written accepted time line for the paper label was 1916-20 and yes the Patented Krinkly bottle was from July 13,1920 but that did not mean the paper label was entirely finished in its use,...I can imagine there were a few hold outs, was Nevin-Frank Co. later in the change?....I hope my bottles reveal some sort of answer. I don't think one can really argue given this document that paper labels were used well past 1920 and maybe even into the later 20's?...hmmm. One other note , notice the tray and bottles depicted on the letter are the same as on the bottle label....It all makes sense really...paper was still being used but what better way to advertise the new patented bottle than right on the labels that were still in use with the SS bottles!  [attachment=Orange Crush 1923-1.jpg] [attachment=Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 6, 2015)

I believe these bottles are from the same Facebook site as were some of the bottles posted earlier. I wonder why these bottles are the same style and all have Butte, Montana embossed on the shoulder but the paper labels are from entirely different and unrelated bottlers?                                                             https://www.facebook.com/SassySales 1.  Concord Punch = Alco/Nevin-Frank2.  Checo = Butte Brewing Company3.  Hyball = Northwestern Bottling Works


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 6, 2015)

Revised Question ...            Are we to believe that every beverage bottler in Butte, Montana used the same type of bottle?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 6, 2015)

Especially when you take into account the Butte Brewing Company had their own Checo bottle to put a paper label on!


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## Canadacan (Jun 6, 2015)

Easy to explain that they are all from the same town, if they were not a red flag would go up! Yes same bottle group mine came from....There are two Checo bottles, they are Prohibition era bottles. I'm quite sure that in this rough and tumble mining Town of the 20's that bottlers turned a blind eye when they had customers return other competitors bottles....that was a known problem back then.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 6, 2015)

As I said earlier, I'm not trying to bring you down or bum you out, but I have to disagree about it being easy to explain. The more I look into this the more convinced I become that someone had a bunch of paper labels they pasted on various bottles, and that some, if not all of the labels, are not original to the bottles they are applied to. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to examine the makers marks and date codes on the bottles themselves. If it turns out that a Ward's Orange Crush paper label is on a 1930s or 1940s bottle, it will be next to impossible to convince me the label is original to the bottle. There's no way the transition from paper labels, which started in 1920-1921, took until 1930-1931 to complete.


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## Canadacan (Jun 6, 2015)

Posted on Printmag dot.com,This letter dated 1917 from the same company I believe, and shows the early logo used on the paper label matches up with the letter head. I have not seen a letter head that matches the other style logo, but most of the ads from 1920 best match up to it. Maybe they just had the two letter head styles from 1916-1923+? . So this would have been the first label used and my bottle  I posted above earlier would have been the last type of paper label used.  [attachment=Orange Crush 1917-2.jpg][attachment=Crush Bottle-2.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 6, 2015)

"There's no way the transition from paper labels, which started in 1920-1921, took until 1930-1931 to complete." Yea I hear what your saying...and there is no way to know how long the transition took for sure. I could contact the fellow that bought the Checo bottles to see how he feels about them being authentic?...I believe he is a very knowledgeable brewerainia collector and would not have pursued them if they were suspect. Remember the saying...'Never say Never'[].....I have to be an optimist at this point!....but fully prepared for utter disappointment[]


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## Canadacan (Jun 7, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. Maybe they are talking about a "new" formula for Orange Crush, except I can find no evidence to support that Orange Crush was reformulated in 1937.


Here is another ad dated 1929!....and you guessed it......... with the slogan NEW. [attachment=1929 New Orange Crush-1.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

I will concede that even if the bottles in question turn out to be from 1930 or later, because they do not have painted labels, they obviously had paper labels of some type. The earliest painted label soda bottle I'm aware of is a Jumbo Cola from 1934. But even with this said, the bigger question is, were Ward's Orange Crush paper labels still being used as late as 1930-34? And what about Nevin-Frank bottling, if in fact they began operation in 1921, is it likely they would start a new bottling company by using Ward's Orange Crush paper labels when the crinkly bottle was already being used?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

Meet ... *                                                                   Charles P. Nevin* The reason this *1921* biography doesn't mention Nevin-Frank bottling is because the bottling company had not been established yet when the biography was written.                                                (Scroll back to page 386 for start of biography)                                                               https://goo.gl/Pk7SZU


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

There's still hope ... []                           Nevin-Frank Bottling was incorporated sometime in *1920 *for $750,000                                        by J.F. Silverman, J.E. Thompson, Charles P. Nevin         (No doubt the biography was written sometime in 1920 prior to the incorporation of that same year)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

However ...           The proof of the pudding still rest with the makers mark and dates on the bottles themselves!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

In other words ... It probably took several months or possibly a year or more to gather all of the information for the various biographies, which was then edited, etc. prior to its publication/release in 1921. But whatever the circumstances were, Nevin-Frank was not in existence when the information for Charles P. Nevin's biography was written, otherwise it would have included it.         (I'm just heading out the door and will post where I found the 1920 date later today or tomorrow)


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## Canadacan (Jun 7, 2015)

Great news on the incorporation info!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

This link is to a *1920* issue of American Bottler magazine ...                     https://books.google.com/books/about/American_Bottler.html?id=LZZRAAAAYAAJ But in order to find the reference for the Nevin-Frank Company being incorporated, you need to use the search box. Type *Nevin Frank *in the blank box and then click on where it says "Search inside" For some reason page 62 is not available for view and as far as I know this is the only way to find the listing. You can also click on the image of the magazine itself and it will open the book which can be scrolled through. And, yes, there are numerous pages devoted to "Ward's Orange Crush" that show paper labels on their bottles. However, the bottles in question still have to be examined for makers marks and date codes because this 1920 America Bottler reference does not confirm or even hint at the possibility that the Nevin-Frank Company was bottling Orange Crush at the time. The earliest reference I can find for when Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush still stands at 1937. All this American Bottle reference tells us is that Nevin-Frank was incorporated sometime in 1920.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

P.S. Instead of scrolling through the entire magazines(s) looking for Orange Crush ads, just type Orange Crush in the search box, which will pull up at least 38 listings you can click on individually page-by-page.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 7, 2015)

More for future reference and research ... 

                                       1913 Montana Department of Public Health publication ...

List numerous bottled beverages and bottlers, but Nevin-Frank Company not listed. However, it does list "Alco-Iron / Bock / Western Beverage Company."  I do not know exactly what "Alco-Iron Bock" refers to.

https://goo.gl/qOvuao

                                                                     ~ * ~

                                                          1921 Brewers Journal ...

Notice where is says Nevin-Frank Co. "took over the Centennial and the Western Beverage Co."  (Western Beverage was listed in the 1913 publication)

https://goo.gl/ijLNp6


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## Canadacan (Jun 8, 2015)

Well there is some very interesting information Bob....the incorporation being mentioned that the capital was $750,000!...I wonder if that was a typo?....I know many other company's show varying amounts but that just seems like such a large sum.The fact that Nevin-Frank took over Centennial and the Western Beverage Co. is something to note...It just reiterates what I was saying about other bottlers being bought out and using bottles from that company, just in case that other bottle happens to be marked with one of those two, and if not that dose not really matter too much.Maybe that's why they had such a large capital into the company. I think  'Alco-Iron Bock' is a Beer? On another note, I have forwarded that Picture of the 1921 Orange Crush ad with the Nevin-Frank Co. that you posted here To Michael Rosman, He has been somewhat skeptical as well about the bottle and weather or not Nevin-Frank Co bottled OC, I pointed out the fact he had a whole section devoted to the Crush ads of Norman Rockwell and low and behold there was the ad right in his book!....I felt Kind of silly for not noticing it at first myself.The add was supposed to appear in the Christian Herald July 16, 1921 but was never published and to this day has never surfaced...other than the original ad pictured on Worth point. Anyways that was already enough to convince him the bottle was good, He stated he would make some sort of addendum to that section and give me credit, Well the credit should go to you!...I'll advise him the photo came off the internet in case he plans to publish it. More about labels, I do know Orange Crush From Turo, Nova Scotia, Canada used paper labels on the other flavors, is it possible that all their bottles were the same for all flavors with paper labels? This bottle is from The 'O-C' era....apparently 1925-35 time period. Note that a Belfast Ginger Ale label from the same company is in Mikes book. Same question arises...why were they not using the patented bottles?...even for the other flavors? [attachment=Turo Nova Scotia Orange Crush-RB.jpg][attachment=Turo Nova Scotia Orange Crush-RB1.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 8, 2015)

Canadacan:                        The information you posted is very interesting, but a little confusing. Here's why ... 1. Is this website/link related to Michael Rosman? If so, I don't see his name anywhere. Notice its dated for today, June 8, 2015. http://www.best-norman-rockwell-art.com/norman-rockwell-crush-advertisement-1921-orange-crush-young-girl-with-orange-crush.html  2.  No biggie that Nevin is misspelled, but notice where it says ... 
"As you can see my copy is a store or fountain poster issued by Nevis-Frank. Nevis-Frank was Montana's state distributor for Crush products."

                                                                         ~ * ~

Q:  If Nevin-Frank was the distributor of Orange Crush for the entire state of Montana, then why can't we find any additional references to support that claim?

                                                                         ~ * ~

      This link is to some additional information about Norman Rockwell's contract with Orange Crush ...  




http://rompedas.blogspot.com/2008/10/norman-rockwell-orange-crush.html


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## Canadacan (Jun 8, 2015)

Oh Sorry to confuse..[]...That website is not related to Michael Rosman but he published information from it into his book.Yes it's a strange thing that there are not more records on Nevin-Frank Co. Maybe when the company dissolved and became 'Frank's the records were all destroyed, I think the only hope for more information lies with the University of MT and the other source I mentioned earlier, Or the other city's to where they expanded to in 1926.I did read the blog a few days back...great stuff! All this research had me examining the recent cache of the Delenay & young bottles and got me wondering if they were authentic too but I quickly decided all was good with that find because  Delenay & young branded sodas other than Orange Crush...( another pet project???...City Soda Works, I think, Eureka California) were among the bottles as well. They have 8 sold now and 3 left for sale...and I ended up buying one because I made a significant discovery that is very subtle....It's strange how certain details pop out at you after a week of looking!I give you this:...excuse my crude paint shop edit[][attachment=1920 OC ad by Coca...ampa FL - Copy.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 8, 2015)

I know I'm running a little off track here[] but I had to put this together for a comparison.  [attachment=OC-comparison.jpg] Here is a little brighter pic of the Delaney & Young bottle. [attachment=$_57 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 8, 2015)

*                                          1916*  https://goo.gl/ftsVXz


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## Canadacan (Jun 8, 2015)

Huh well I'll be darned....I was looking at that letterhead Dated 12/26/17..and when you zoom in on the C it reveals another style again. But I suppose a real close examination might reveal a couple more. One thing for certain is they changed the font fairly quick! [attachment=books.png]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

1.  You will recall this article from The Billings Gazette dated *June 23, 1926* about Nevin-Frank opening a bottling facility in Billings, Montana. 2.  And on the same page as the article above was this advertisement, which mentioned several brands of soda pop but not Ward's Orange Crush. 3.  Well, now we know why Nevin-Frank didn't bottle Ward's Orange Crush in Billings! Its because the Eureka Bottling Works was already bottling it and had been for several years. This particular ad is from ...                                             The Billings Gazette  ~  Billings, Montana  ~  *June 3, 1926* I haven't fully researched the Eureka Bottling works, but have found references for them at least as late as 1930. There is no connection between the Nevin-Frank Co. and the Eureka Bottling Works. They were different independent bottlers. Which raises the question, if Nevin-Frank was the sole distributor of Orange Crush for the entire state of Montana, as the earlier claim stated, then how do we explain the fact the Eureka Bottling Works in Billings was also bottling and distributing it?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

P.S. I realize the current evidence is inconclusive and sketchy at best, but now more than ever I am of the opinion that the Nevin-Frank Company did not start bottling Orange Crush until sometime after 1926, which would have been well into the so called Krinkly bottle era.


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## Canadacan (Jun 9, 2015)

Yes unfortunately it dose not conclude anything, although it is very interesting. Assuming Nevin-Frank was the state distributor say in 1926 for example or even before dose not mean they had exclusive rights to buy out independents right?Eureka Bottling in Billings obviously would have covered a small territory of their own, even if  Nevin-Frank was bottling in the same town they would have just been pushing their Alco product line.We still do not know when they became the state distributor for Orange Crush but I would think before 1927 as that sign still had the Ward's on it, I think 1926 was the year they dropped the Ward's as the 1927 ads no longer show it.I'm grasping here too with this a bit[&:]


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## Canadacan (Jun 9, 2015)

To answer any earlier Question: Bob asked....... Revised Question ...

          " Are we to believe that every beverage bottler in Butte, Montana used the same type of bottle?"Hang...having technical trouble...something funky going on with this site!


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## Canadacan (Jun 9, 2015)

Ok let me try this again. Here is a Eureka bottling Works from Billings and it's a 'Priof' so it seems possible that many bottlers were using similar bottles at the time. I noticed that on page 1 the Alco Ginger Ale from Butte is also a 'Priof.  [attachment=Eurka1.jpg][attachment=Eureka2.jpg] [attachment=Eureka3.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't want to get too far afield with the Eureka Bottling Works in Billings, Montana, but because it seems to have a bearing on thinks, I thought I'd include the following ...                          A.  The earliest date I can find for the Eureka Bottling Works is *1913*                         B.  The earliest date I can find showing they bottled Orange Crush is *1920*                         C.  The latest date I can find showing they bottled Orange Crush is *1927*                                              Of particular interest is this article from ...                                  The Billings Gazette  ~  Billings, Montana  ~  July 1, *1924 *                                          1.  Full article  ~  Save and zoom to read                                         2.  Cropped portion of article that is of particular interest


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

1.  The Billings Gazette  ~  July 4, *1920*                                                 2.  The Billings Gazette  ~  May 14, *1927*


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## Canadacan (Jun 9, 2015)

Yes good stuff Bob...It establishes some important things.Well this information would indicate Nevin-Frank became state distributor after 1927, But that's not a known  fact yet.So maybe Nevin-Frank had the exclusive for Butte? Remember the Concord Punch- (a national brand) with the Alco bottom label. Question: who was the Coca-Cola bottler for Butte?....seems many Coca-Cola bottlers also had Licenses to bottle Ward's Orange Crush.Key points I think: Billings Gazette-June 3, 1926.....shows Eureka Bottling Works and their OC ad.                            Billings Gazette-June 23, 1926.....announces Alco expansion into Billings. Another Key point now is the Proof that Ward's OC was being bottled in July 4, 1920....yes in Billings by Eureka Bottling Works but we now know for sure it was in Montana at that time.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

I did a quick search and it appears the first franchised Coca Cola bottler in Butte was established sometime in the 1920s and possibly as late as 1929. But this doesn't mean Coca Cola wasn't being sold in Butte earlier than 1929 - it just means the first franchised bottling facility might not have been established there until the late 1920s. If this is in fact true, then even if they did bottle Orange Crush at some point, it would have been later than what pertains here.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

In other words ... It appears that both Orange Crush and Coca Cola were *sold *in Butte during the 1920s, but *not bottled *there. As near as I can determine, the nearest bottler to Butte for Orange Crush and Coca Cola during the early 1920s was Eureka Bottling Works in Billings. Eureka Bottling Works appears to have had *exclusive bottling *and *distribution rights *during that time period.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

Eureka Bottling Works was a huge distributor! Its because of articles like this from a 1921 American Bottler magazine that cause me to say this. Notice where is says they supplied the entire *Midland Empire *...                                                                  https://goo.gl/SEiLNB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

The new latest date I can find for Eureka Bottling Works is *1929*. But whether they changed their name or went out of business, I do not know. They are not listed in this 1932 directory for Montana manufacturers and products.                        https://archive.org/stream/directoryofmonta1932mont_0#page/n1/mode/2up Just type in anything you wish to search for and the "teardrop" results will appear at the bottom which can be opened individually by clicking on them. Try it! Its fun!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 9, 2015)

This is a page from the 1932 Montana directory I just posted a link to, which does not include a listing for Eureka Bottling Works. Notice where I placed the red arrows that it shows the Coca Cola Bottling Company was located in Billings at the time. Also notice they bottled Orange Crush. Also notice that Coca Cola is the only beverage manufacture in Billings at that time. Its possible that Eureka Bottling Works became a Coca Cola franchise bottler at this time and changed their name accordingly.


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## Canadacan (Jun 10, 2015)

That one works really good Bob!...had trouble with the ones listed by Google books. Found this interesting...as you mention the Coca-Cola Co. _1932__Brand or type                                                                     Manufacturer/ Town  _ _Crush.................................................................... Anaconda Products Company- Anaconda__        .................................................................... Coca-Cola Bottling Co. -Billings_ _Hav-Mo................................................................ Sheehan Orange Crush Co.- Helena _ I guess what I'm gleaning from what you said about Eureka Bottling having exclusive rights...my first thought is they may have contracted Alco to bottle it for them in Butte but I'm not sure that even makes sense?...after all they are like 226 miles apart which was a good distance back in the 20's ...and if they were the supplier for the entire Midland Empire does that mean all of Montana?...no I think it means just that... a region, and Billings is the center of it. I don't know the regions of Montana but I'm quite certain Butte is not or was not part of the Midland Empire. The city of Butte was certainly big enough in the 20's to have a Bottler of Ward's OC.......and Nevin-Frank had their own soda line up already so it would have been easy to just add any National brand they wanted. Have to think some more about this latter,....... right now my brain is overloaded![]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 10, 2015)

I have been seeing some conflicting dates as to when the first Coca Cola bottling facility was established in Butte, some saying as early as 1912, but according to this article it appears to have been in 1929 ...                                           The Montana Standard  ~  Butte, Montana  ~  April 13, 1929                                                 ( I do not know if they also bottled Orange Crush )


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## Canadacan (Jun 10, 2015)

Hmmm well it just may be Coca-Cola was brought up by truck or rail from Billings to Butte until this plant set up by the Montana Coca-Cola company. Someone had to be bringing in syrup in the 1900's and serving it down at the soda fountain?....there must be ads somewhere...information for Butte seem a little elusive.Too bad there was no archives from the old Orange Crush HQ in Chicago....I suppose at one point they had on file all the Authorized bottlers.


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## Canadacan (Jun 11, 2015)

Stumbled upon this article from November of 2014. I was searching for information and I thought Great Falls is not something we really looked at, after all Nevin-Frank did expand into that city as well in 1926.Have a read...neat article! http://www.greatfallstrib...et-coke-city/19155135/


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

That is an interesting article, but I have to question where it says ... *"*Tim's great-grandfather, Rasmus Jorgensen, got Great Falls into the soda pop business in 1907 in a shack on the back of a southside lot where he lived. This was the Electric City's first soft drink bottler, although it was possible to get fizzy drinks before that — just not ones that originated in Great Falls. Rasmus Jorgensen was a native Dane who knew how to operate steam-driven equipment. He came to Great Falls in 1890, and several years later helped build the mammoth sandstone building now known as Paris Gibson Square. But the soft drink business beckoned.*"* *                                                                                  ~ * ~* The reason I question the article is because of this ad I found, which tells us the Jorgensen operation was not the first soft drink bottler in Great Falls. Another thing that caught my eye is where it says Rasmus Jorgensen arrived in Great Falls in 1890. When he arrived in Great Falls there was a soft drink bottler in full operation. So I'm a little confused about the accuracy of the article and the dates it mentions. Ad from ... Great Falls Weekly Tribune  ~  Great Falls, Montana  ~  February 11, *1888* ( I also found a "Montana Bottling Works" located in Great Falls in 1895, but I'm not sure if they were a beer bottler or a soft drink bottler )


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

I don't know how long the Great Falls Bottling Works was in operation, but because of the type of bottle this is and the fact it has a crown finish, its probably from the early 1900s, which would have been about the time the Jorgensen's started their bottling company in 1907. I have not found a Great Falls Bottling Works bottle from the late 1880s, but they would have been some type of blob-top. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Great-Falls-Bottling-Montana-Soda-Bottle-/281483327723?nma=true&si=hQw7JfCAuJXJPM54L%252BhD5l7dKQw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

According to this document, the Great Falls Bottling Works was still in operation as late as ...                                                         *               1913* https://goo.gl/Vm9B3p                       ( So perhaps you can understand now why I question grandma Jorgensen's account )


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

P.S. Not to mention the Charles Gies bottling operation that is also included in the 1913 document. I'm pretty sure the Charles Gies bottling also goes back to the late 1800s, but were primarily a beer bottler that also bottled soda pop.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

There is a Charles Gies soda bottle currently on eBay - but I don't know the date other than its a crown bottle ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Chas-Gies-Great-Falls-Montana-Orange-Soda-Crown-Top-Aqua-Bottle-RARE-/321753527753?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aea0135c9


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## Canadacan (Jun 11, 2015)

Yea I guess the article is a little vague, it seems  more so focused on the Coca -Cola aspect of things to me. Definitely not the first bottler. It also did not reveal anything Orange Crush related.....anything surface Alco related for Great Falls?... Other than the  article about their expansion in 1926.... I just  figured this was a direction to look in. 
Hey I noticed that bottle last night....love the Orange label!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

Meet the Gies Brothers ...                 http://pre-prowhiskeymen.blogspot.com/2015/03/a-tale-of-two-gieses-in-great-falls.html        What's really weird is, the soda bottle pictured on this website is the identical bottle currently on eBay                                       (The article on the website is dated March 24, 2015)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

Canadacan said:
			
		

> anything surface Alco related for Great Falls?



Other than the 1926 article that talks about the expansion, I cannot find a single reference showing that Nevin-Frank and/or Alco was ever in operation in Great Falls. Maybe they just had a warehouse there for distribution but not a bottling plant ???


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

Here's the portion of the June 23, 1926 article that includes the towns they apparently expanded to ... I haven't researched every town, but if they did bottle Orange Crush, it would have been in the Krinkly bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2015)

Canadacan: Did you purchase the bottles with the Orange Crush paper labels or are you just waiting to receive information about them? The reason I ask is because the mystery can be easily solved by knowing what the makers marks and date codes are on the bottles themselves.


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## Canadacan (Jun 11, 2015)

Yes I purchased them.....hoping they arrive this week, but they are probably held up as usual by customs.


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## Canadacan (Jun 11, 2015)

Also purchased the Delenay & Young Ward's OC, not really related being a California bottle by Illinois Pacific Glass Co., but just posted on page 4 to show the label variation.I have two bottle examples from Illinois Glass Co. with the diamond I mark and what I believe to be a heel date code, There is no code on the bases of either bottle.In the mean time I found yet another one of these bottles, boy they sure were a popular style! This one is from Scott Sandford Beverages -Great Falls, and also again has the Illinois Glass Co. mark and a 'Priof' top. [attachment=Scott Sanford Beverages-Great Falls.JPG][attachment=Scott Sanford Beve.ges-Great Falls1.JPG]  One other find is this envelope! [attachment=OC-Great Falls MT.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 12, 2015)

Well It seems Ward's Orange Crush was alive and well In Great Falls MT as early as 7th July 1920.....and bottled by American Brewing Company. The ad was in the Great Falls _daily tribune._ [attachment=OC Great Falls-dai...ne 7 July 1920.jpg] [attachment=download.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 12, 2015)

Here is a real interesting contest ad for the Norman Rockwell ad that was latter used for Nevin-Frank Co.Also from Great Falls _daily tribune _12th April 1922_. _It's a bit difficult to see the picture but rest assured this is it!Notice the distributor Gamble-Robinson Co._[attachment=OC Great Falls-dai...il 1922 - Copy.jpg]_     This was a follow up in the _daily tribune _from 13th May 1922. The winning name " A Double Crush". [attachment=OC Great Falls-dai...ne 13 May 1922.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 12, 2015)

Okay, we know Ward's Orange Crush was apparently available in Billings and Great Falls in 1920. But what does that tells us about Alco / Nevin-Frank bottling it? By the way, I'm a little confused about the first ad, dated July 7, 1920.  It shows the American Brewing Company was in Great Falls in 1920. According to the information on these links, and similar references I've seen, it appears the American Brewing Company pulled out of Great Falls in *1919* 

http://nwda.orbiscascade.org/ark:/80444/xv48567

http://www.tinviennaartplates.com/catablog-items/american-brewing-co-great-falls-mt/


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## Canadacan (Jun 12, 2015)

That just tell us nothing other than the fact that it would be ridiculous to think that it was not being bottled in Butte around the same time. Seems really hard to track down any info from Butte in newsprint especially given that Library of Congress only goes to 1922.American Brewing Company did what many other Brewers did at the time of Prohibition and switched to bottling Soda and Cereal Beverages. They did not entirely pack up as the article stated after the repeal of Prohibition they were purchased be Emil Sick in 1933.Similar Story for Butte Brewery (1885-1899)....then became Butte Brewing Co. (1899-1918)...and then became Eureka Beverages Co. (1920-1933).....they survived by bottling Checo brand sodas, same bottles posted here back on page 2.


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## Canadacan (Jun 12, 2015)

Now for the Good News!!!!!...my bottles came in!!![][][]I'll start with the older of my two labels. I'm very certain this is the revised version of the label, a lemon Crush pictured in Mike's book I believe is older yet as is has no printing on the outside (white )border and dose not have the Artificially Colored printed below the main field.Label has all the correct aging, (orange color a little faded), typical black spotting on backside of label, they are authentic....and really not bad for a 90+ year old paper labels!Now the bottle it self is however embossed Eureka Beverages Co. and once again I as I stated earlier this was a possibility and I have no problem with that.No maker on the bottom, but it is embossed _E.B.Co. _The heel does have a code 20 S1....What I glean from that is the year 1920...or possibly S code Graham Glass Co? S= 1919....That's for another day to investigate more. [attachment=20150612_105830_resized.jpg][attachment=Eureke Beverages-Butte MT.jpg] [attachment=20150612_110202_resized.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 12, 2015)

Here is the verdict on this one...Authentic!...same attributes as above bottle but it's the embossed Nevin-Frank Co. Butte Mont. bottle.Bottle is marked with the Illinois Glass Co. Diamond.This is no doubt this label is an early variation of the label because the bottles depicted each have matching color caps...on later label the caps are of one color on all bottles. Plus many other features are very evident that can be discussed later. [attachment=20150612_105724_resized.jpg] [attachment=20150612_105804_resized.jpg]


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## carling (Jun 13, 2015)

Are you sure the heel code is 20 S 1?  Photo's a little blurry, maybe it's my eyes, but I'm seeing possibly *29* S 1.


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## Canadacan (Jun 13, 2015)

carling said:
			
		

> Are you sure the heel code is 20 S 1?  Photo's a little blurry, maybe it's my eyes, but I'm seeing possibly *29* S 1.


Yes it's Definitely a zero...but I see what your seeing where it looks like a small space. but it's not..it's a shiny spot with no case wear....plus there is a bit of stringy glass running through the 2 and the 0 and in that picture it distorts things a bit.
This is a little better with the flash on the camera. [attachment=20150613_004759.jpg]


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## carling (Jun 13, 2015)

Super clear now in your new photo, thanks! Awesome bottles!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 13, 2015)

Canadacan: Thanks for the great pictures. Its a rare treat to see such nice, focused close ups. Its true what they say about one picture being worth a thousand words. Now, please don't take this wrong because I'm your biggest fan, but just because there is a Ward's Orange Crush paper label on a N F CO. / Nevin-Frank bottle doesn't necessarily confirm the label is original to the bottle. The main reason I say this is because of the Alco Nevin-Frank label on the Eureka Beverage Company bottle. As far as I know there is no connection between Alco Nevin-Frank and the Eureka Beverage Company. So if this is true, then how do we explain labels from two different bottlers from two different towns being on the same bottle? If it were me, I'd need additional confirmation that Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush before assuming the labels are original to the bottles. If in fact Nevin-Frank bottle Orange Crush as early as 1920-22, there must be a reference to it somewhere.Again, I'm not trying to bring you down or be obstinate. I'm just telling it the way I see it. Respectively, Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 13, 2015)

P.S. I realize I said more than once that the proof of the pudding would be in knowing the makers marks and date codes on the bottles themselves. But when you stop and think about it, all that does is identify the bottle but not necessarily the paper label attached to it. The question that keeps spinning around in my head is; why is there a Alco Nevin-Frank paper label on a bottle embossed on the shoulder as well as on the base with the Eureka Beverage Company?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 13, 2015)

Another question I have pertains to the Norman Rockwell Orange Crush sign with Nevin-Frank on it. There must have been a reason why it never appeared in the July 16, 1921 issue of the Christian Herald as was stated earlier. Could it be because Nevin-Frank intended to secure the Orange Crush bottling rights prior to the completion of the artwork, but for some reason was unable to gain those rights, which might explain why the ad was never published?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 13, 2015)

If the information on this 2008 forum thread is accurate, it tells us the Nevin-Frank company wasn't necessarily honest when it came to labeling their bottles. I haven't researched the 1926 lawsuit yet, but think its worth looking into ...                              https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Ginger-Ale-Bottles-wanted-m30298-p15.aspx


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## Canadacan (Jun 13, 2015)

carling said:
			
		

> Super clear now in your new photo, thanks! Awesome bottles!


Thank you carling []


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## Canadacan (Jun 13, 2015)

Just to clarify something...I had mentioned way back that I would be concerned if one of the bottles had embossing from another city altogether.Bob you asked: "As far as I know there is no connection between Alco Nevin-Frank and the Eureka Beverage Company. So if this is true, then how do we explain labels from two different bottlers from two different towns being on the same bottle?" Well both bottles are from Butte MT....maybe your confusing my bottle marked Eureka Beverages Co.-Butte MT. with the bottle I posted earlier marked Eureka Bottling Works -Billings MT ? I seen a reference to Nevin-Frank Brewing Company?...and of course I lost were I had seen it :/ Well it seems to me that Nevin-Frank was more of distributor?...but then what about their line of Alco soda's ....the lack of information available to us is decidedly inconvenient!About that Norman Rockwell Orange Crush sign with Nevin-Frank on it, in the newsprint article I posted was a contest to name the print, I assume it was never released because it had not been named? On that website it was simply referred to as ' _Young Girl with Orange Crush_ '...... but in the contest the winner named it ' _A Double Crush_ ' Now I do not know if that was a Montana state exclusive? but it no doubt was authorized by HQ in Chicago. The article also mentions that ' soon you will see it in beautiful colors wherever Orange-Crush is sold.


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## Canadacan (Jun 13, 2015)

Had a chance today to do up some studio type photos...much better than what I posted last night![]Next up I'll post the label comparisons now that I have the bottles! [attachment=OC Ward's 001 - Copy-reduced.JPG][attachment=OC Ward's 002 - Copy-reduced.JPG]


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## Canadacan (Jun 13, 2015)

Ok here is the label comparison. I decided to post a full picture of both bottles, nice to see them side by side. [attachment=OC Ward's 002 - Copy-reduced.JPG][attachment=OC Ward's 004 - Copy.JPG]  This is the up-close comparison with a numbered description of differences. The Nevin-Frank would be the earlier one.1-Crown color is the same as the bottle.2- This label has a pin stripe.3-Refined detail on bottles, can't confirm at this time if the bottles say 'Ward's'...75% certain they do.4- Font style change, most noticeable to me was the 'C', also the G and E in Orange, there are several other minor changes.5-No blue color on bottles or tray. The Nevin-Frank has a yellow/green tones, and the Delaney & Young has 90% blue tone with a few green highlights. So I would dub them 'Yellow Tray' & 'Blue Tray' variations I suppose. The exact year of change is not know for sure but maybe 1922-24. A letter dated from 1923 still had the Yellow tray in use. [attachment=Ward labels-reduced - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2015)

Canadacan: I fully understand your reasons for believing Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush in Butte, Montana prior to 1929 and that the paper labels are original to the bottles. But I just have to go on record and say I am currently of the opinion that Nevin-Frank did not bottle Orange Crush prior to 1929 in Butte, Montana and that the paper labels are not original to the bottles. The current evidence is problematic for me and I feel it needs a great deal more research in order to confirm exactly when Nevin-Frank began bottling Orange-Crush. As it stands now, the earliest date I can find is still 1937. Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2015)

P.S. The reason I'm using the 1929 date is because of the Illinois Glass mark on your N. F. CO. bottle, which dates it to no later than 1929, which is when Illinois Glass and Owens Glass merged to become Owens-Illinois.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2015)

One question that's still unanswered involves Nevin-Frank's connection with *Orange Kist* as shown in this 1926 advertisement. Orange Kist was a competitor of Orange Crush and I have to wonder why Nevin Frank was bottling it when they expanded to Billings?     [Orange] *KIST* Earliest Use = 1919Trademark Filed = May 25, 1921Trademark Registered = September 19, 1922 [Attachment] The Billings Gazette ~ June 23, 1926


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2015)

And the answer might not be because the Eureka Bottling Works was already bottling Orange Crush in Billings when Nevin-Frank expanded there. Nevin-Frank might have been bottling Orange Kist in Butte before the 1926 expansion.


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## Canadacan (Jun 14, 2015)

Maybe they were unauthorized to bottle OC? I still am a defender of the authenticity of these bottles because of the overwhelming evidence given in the early newsprint from Great Falls and Billings of the products presence, yes there is a lack of prints from Butte in the 1921-26 years...why??It's not far fetched to think that Alco bottled Orange Crush, the bottles paint a picture of them doing it earlier than 1926 as the labels match the advertising of the time period.Nothing here represented proves they did not bottle it at an early date just the same.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't deny the labels are appropriate to about 1921-1926, and that at least one of the bottles is pre 1929.  Its the bottles and labels together that I question. Nor do I question that Orange Crush was bottled in Billings by the Eureka Bottling Works as early as 1920. But I do question Alco Nevin-Frank bottling it that early. Remember, Nevin-Frank was not established until 1920, which raised red flags for me right from the get-go because that was when Orange Crush introduced the Krinkly bottle But regardless of this-that-and-another, I still think we need unquestionable documented proof that Alco Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush earlier than 1937 before authenticating the bottles. If they bottled it between 1921 and 1926, then there is documentation somewhere - we just need to find it. [light]


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## Canadacan (Jun 16, 2015)

Looking back on this add... and now I realize it clearly prints that the plant and main offices were in fact in Butte, and the facility in Billings was a distribution point for them, referred to as a branch in the news article. While this really has no outcome on the real story here, but is just clarifies that they did not physically bottle in every city or maybe none at all? [attachment=Alco -Nevin-Frank.jpg]  I was wondering about the Orange Kist...I believe it was a product of the Citrus Products Co. Chicago, they also produced Blue Bird. here is an interesting ad from The Anaconda Standard May 1926....No mention of Blue Bird in the ad above. Also note they do not depict the patented Blue Bird bottle in this ad..... must have come in around 1928. [attachment=img.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 16, 2015)

Call me crazy, but I'm starting to think Alco Nevin-Frank *never bottled Orange Crush*. I don't have time to say more at the moment, but will just as soon as I complete my research.


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## Canadacan (Jun 16, 2015)

Well this my position and while respecting yours, we are after all entitled to our own conclusions.I still have to go back and quote myself on the original question:"The question is did Alco-Nevin Frank Co. bottle Ward's Orange Crush at this time?"....well I say yes.If not...Then how do you explain these items?..... there is nothing to suggest then did not. I hold in my possession physical proof that they did ( the bottles), and the Norman Rockwell ad is the the proof!.....I'm at the point the only way to convince me they didn't is show me documentation that says otherwise...and at this time it has not been found. I wish we had access to the news print of Butte from the 1921-on....they probably hold the answer.Another thought to digest...I do not think they every were the exclusive distributor of OC......I think this ad is taken the wrong way, they are merely advertising they are distributors. [attachment=Orange+Crush+Poste...k+Date+Unknown.jpg][attachment=OC Ward's 001 - Copy-reduced.JPG] [attachment=OC Ward's 002 - Copy-reduced.JPG]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 16, 2015)

The key word I'm hoping to confirm or disconfirm in connection with Nevin-Frank and Orange Crush is not distributor but whether or not they were a ...                                                                       "*Bottler*"                                                                    I'll be back  []


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## Canadacan (Jun 17, 2015)

Wow never realized Charles P. Nevin was so involved!....he was even the former mayor of Butte. And played the largest roles in Montana's soda industry....yea no kidding read to the bottom of first article. The Billings Gazette 8th Feb 1924 [attachment=The Billings Gazette-8 Feb 1924.jpg]  The Independent Record (Helena MT) 13th Feb 1929 [attachment=The Independant Re...T) 13 Feb 1929.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2015)

I apologize for being so evasive lately, but my daughter and her family are visiting from out of state and my grandkids are demanding 99% of my attention and don't like it when I'm on the computer. Anyway, I only have a minute and wanted to start with this ad posted earlier about naming the Norman Rockwell picture. It appeared in the Great Falls Daily Tribune on April 12, 1922 by the Gamble-Robinson Co. / American Brewing Co. of Great Falls, Montana. I photo enhanced it as best I could and discovered it does not have the Nevin-Frank text on it, which I believe tells us the picture was not intended exclusively for Nevin-Frank but was intended to be used by others as well, and quite possibly will eventually be found in various magazine ads as well.    1.  Full Ad2.  Cropped and photo enhanced portion3.  Nevin-Frank example for comparison ( To be continued )


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2015)

I will explain more about this article later and recommend reading it in the meantime.                                                                               From ...                                    The Independent Record  ~  Helena, Montana  ~  March 9, 1930                                             (Driving distance between Helena and Butte is 68 miles)                                               [ Cropped into five sections for easier reading ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2015)

(Continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2015)

~ Last but not least for today ~                              Two identical ads published on the same day in two different newspapers ...                                1.  The Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ April 30, 1937                              (Which is the only Nevin-Frank Orange Crush ad I can find anywhere)                                2.  The Independent Record ~ Helena, Montana ~ April 30, 1937                                                                  (Sheehan Bottling)                                          (( I will explain these new pieces to the puzzle later ))


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## Canadacan (Jun 18, 2015)

Well a little more info about the 'New Orange Crush'... and I know this thread meanders just a little![]... I found articles as early as 1930 for it, but I liked this one from The Winnipeg Tribune, 30 Jun 1931, Tue, Page 5, because it shows the crown cap and gives a great time line for it.....such a long ad so I cropped it in two! And so what was new about it?...the addition of real juice. [attachment=The Winnipeg Tribu... Page 5 - Copy.jpg][attachment=The Winnipeg Tribu...e 5 - Copy (2).jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 18, 2015)

And I now know that the contest to name the Picture was a National contest from coast to coast that included Canada.And yes that would be correct it was not intended for exclusive use by Nevin-Frank Co. And the winning names would vary from every region. I do not think it was ever published in a magazine....the Great Falls ad mentioned 'Soon you will see it in beautiful colors displayed wherever Orange Crush is sold'Here is the ad from The Winnipeg Tribune, 11 May 1922, Thu, Page 5  [attachment=The Winnipeg Tribu... Page 5 - Copy.jpg]  And the winning names...from The Winnipeg Tribune, 3 Jun 1922, Sat, Home Edition  [attachment=The Winnipeg Tribu...Edition - Copy.jpg]


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## Canadacan (Jun 19, 2015)

Also found this for the Green River product advertised on the 1926 Alco/ Nevin-Frank Co. ad from Billings. The ad is from The Anaconda Standard, 28 Jul 1926, Wed, Page 6.  Note that it says distributors, and later in 1937 on some Pepsi ads it says 'Distributed and Bottled by Nevin-Frank Co.', What does that mean?... nothing really as there are some ads where they are refereed to as neither bottler or distributor. In some articles I've seen them called 'Nevin-Frank Bottling' and there was a snippet somewhere that said  'Nevin-Frank Brewing'....which I can understand as they did brew a near beer. [attachment=Nevin-Frank Green River.jpg]  The Anaconda Standard, 28 Jul 1926, Wed, Page 6. [attachment=The Anaconda Stand...6, Wed, Page 6.jpg] Note that this ad for Blue Bird is a combined with both Nevin-Frank Co. and  Anaconda Products company,  I believe they did have an association of some kind. The Anaconda Standard, 12 May 1926, Wed, Page 3  [attachment=The Anaconda Stand... Page 3 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

Canadacan: The recent ads you posted go hand-in-hand with the one's here and clearly illustrate that Nevin-Frank did their share of advertising during the late 1920s and 1930s. In fact, there are dozens if not hundreds of such ads between about 1930 and 1940, with 1940 being when Nevin-Frank ceased operation and became Franks Bottling. With the point I'm trying to make being, if Nevin-Frank was bottling Orange Crush in the 1930s, then why are there dozens of ads for 7up, Pepsi Cola, Blue Bird, etc; but only a single ad for Orange Crush that's dated 1937? If, as you claim, Nevin-Frank was bottling Orange Crush as early as 1920-21, isn't it logical to think they would have continued bottling, distributing, and advertising it in the 1930s as well? Or is the reason they didn't advertise Orange Crush in the 1930s because they weren't bottling it at that time, and possibly never did bottle it? I realize the ads I'm talking about are from the 1930s and not the 1920s, which is when you think your paper label bottle is from, but even with that said, there's something fishy about there being *only one* Nevin-Frank Orange Crush ad but dozens of ads showing they bottled 7up, Pepsi, etc. If Nevin Frank bottled Orange Crush in the 1930s, then where are the ads to confirm it?   (To be continued) [Attachments] 1.  Blue Bird ~ Anaconda Standard ~ Anaconda, Montana ~ May 19, 1927 2.  Pepsi Cola ~ Montana Butte Standard ~ Bute, Montana ~ September 25, 1937 3. 7up ... Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ February 10, 1938


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

Or ... ... is it possible the reason Nevin-Frank didn't advertise Orange Crush in the 1930s be because Sheehan Bottling of Helena was bottling and distributing it to the Butte area as part of the Sheehan territory?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

1.  The first ad is misleading where it says "Established in 1900." What the "1900" refers to is when Henry F. Sheehan established a general merchandise company in Helena, but not when he started a bottling company. The Sheehan's did not secure the Orange Crush Bottling franchise until 1930. But it does tell us they had been active in Helena for quite some time.                                From ...  The Independent Record ~ Helena, Montana ~ June 22, 1930  2.  The second ad is inconclusive because it does not clarify exactly what type of "books" the Sheehan's were checking in Butte, but it does tell us the Sheehan's had some type of business concerns in Butte as early as 1931.                                From ...  The Independent Record ~ Helena, Montana ~ March 24, 1931


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## Canadacan (Jun 19, 2015)

There is a lack of ads, but really our archive source just scratches the surface of what was printed. I like how the Blue Bird ad for that year now shows the patented bottle.Well it is possible the fire forced them to make some temporary changes?...maybe they dropped the Crush line in favor of the Orange Kist?  *The Havre Daily News, 17 Nov 1925, Tue, Page 2*  [attachment=The Havre Daily Ne...5, Tue, Page 2.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

This is sort of like dueling banjos, but that's okay because I'm sure the mystery will eventually be solved. Its almost grandkid time again (pizza and a movie) but I have just enough time to emphasize that Orange Crush was for orange flavored beverages what Coca Cola was for colas. In other words, Orange Crush was a huge money maker and I have doubts that any bottler of Orange Crush would give up those rights because of a fire.                                                                                ~ * ~ While I'm here I wanted to post the attached image that has to do with the Coca Cola Company suing Nevin-Frank because of inappropriate bottle labeling. I haven't fully researched this topic, and not sure yet if I will, but I do know the court case was originally filed on December 28, 1926


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

Lastly (for today) ... Other than this ad dated April 30, 1937, which I consider suspect as to what it actually represents, if anyone can show me another Nevin-Frank/Orange Crush ad from any locale and any time period, I will eat my hat! [] And this does not include the Norman Rockwell painting, which I also consider as suspect.


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## Canadacan (Jun 19, 2015)

Enjoy the pizza and time with grandchild![]Yes this is true about the Orange Crush as it was huge thing back then, and that makes sense they would not want to give up the franchise.The thing that I still wonder about was my theory of why Orange Crush was not on their Alco ad in 1926 ,it does seem odd but maybe Orange Crush had police's about advertising, ie: single ads that featured only their product.I find that interesting about the labeling of Coca-Cola by Nevin-Frank...what years was it in regard to?...say it was in 1922-23 for example then does that means Coca-Cola's paper labels were still being used? I assumed the last year for the paper label was 1919?...would not surprise me if the labels were still in use as late as say maybe 1924.


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## Canadacan (Jun 19, 2015)

I must add this as I think it's an oversight to what I said above: The thing that I still wonder about was my theory of why Orange Crush was not on their Alco ad in 1926 I would think it makes sense it's not because the ad was placed in Billings to promote Alco products, it was not their territory to promote Orange Crush.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2015)

Unless my notes are deceiving me and/or I'm crazy, the *only confirmed **bottler of Orange Crush *I can find in the entire state of Montana *in* 1920 was the *Eureka Bottling Works in Billings*.


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## Canadacan (Jun 20, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Unless my notes are deceiving me and/or I'm crazy, the *only confirmed **bottler of Orange Crush *I can find in the entire state of Montana *in* 1920 was the *Eureka Bottling Works in Billings*.


Ok well you are a little crazy![].....remember the ad I posted from Great Falls Tribune?... 7th July 1920, bottled by American Brewing Co., they weren't the only ones.....lolWell the mystery is solved my Friend!.....you are going to look silly now eating your hat![]This is the earliest ad I could find!.....not much else to say I suppose?...other than I think that cow is flying..ha ha[] *Anaconda Standard June 3, 1920* *[attachment=Anaconda Standard June 3, 1920.jpg][attachment=Anaconda Standard .. 3, 1920 - Copy.jpg] *


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## Canadacan (Jun 20, 2015)

I love this next ad as it still depicts the second generation label and also reaffirms to me that the bottle date I assumed was either 1919 or 1920 for my paper label is more than likely. *Anaconda Standard June 3, 1920*  *Anaconda Standard August 9, 1920* [attachment=Anaconda Standard July 8, 1920.png]                                [attachment=Anaconda Standard August 9, 1920.png]


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## Canadacan (Jun 20, 2015)

This next article is by far one of the best I think! *Anaconda Standard June 22, 1924*[attachment=1-Anaconda Standard June 22, 1924.png]  Next is just part of the article....I had to save it in 4 sections but I'll just post the first part. I did notice the writer refers to all the products as 'Alco'?..HMMM [attachment=2-Anaconda Standard June 22, 1924.png]


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## Canadacan (Jun 20, 2015)

And the final ad for now was this one with the patented bottle pictured from 1926. I still can't seem to locate anything for the years 1921,22,23. But we now have confirmation and proof that Nevin-Frank was bottling Ward's Crush from 1920-26. *Anaconda Standard June 10, 1926* [attachment=Anaconda Standard June 10, 1926.png]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 20, 2015)

Canadacan: Congratulations on a great find. I can imagine your elation upon finding those ads. They indeed confirm that Nevin-Frank bottled Orange Crush in Butte as early as 1920 and that your paper label bottles are genuine. That's me below eating my hat. But before I finish eating the rest of it, what does your crystal ball say about what happened between Orange Crush and Nevin-Frank after 1926? Based on what I'm seeing it appears they no longer bottled Orange Crush after that. By the way, where did you find those ads? Its too bad you didn't find them earlier. Because if you had, I wouldn't have to endure the heart-burn I'm experiencing from eating a sweaty, old hat. []                                                                               ~ * ~ The next project on my list is to see what I can find regarding Coca Cola suing Nevin-Frank in 1926. I doubt it involved the patent 1915 bottle because it is said that virtually all Coca Cola bottlers had switched to the contour bottle by 1920. If there is anything to it, I suspect it had something to do with paper label flavor bottles. But right at the moment I can't think of a brand of flavor beverages that Coca Cola held the exclusive rights to in 1926. The first Coca Cola acl wasn't issued until around 1955. Thanks for sharing your bottles - it was a fun ride while it lasted! Sodapopbob  ... a.k.a, "Hat Eater" []


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## Canadacan (Jun 20, 2015)

Bob thank you!...I couldn't have done it without your help []. I darn near fell out of my chair when I found the first add!..lol, which was the train car one....It does feel good to finally know, and only you and I know the endless hours it takes to find some of this stuff!Yes there is a blank spot there from 1927-1936 for ads, I would still like to know what the deal is, my gut feeling is they were still there but the newsprint ads are unavailable to us to show that.  I stumbled upon a web page (Montana online historical newspapers) and it shows available archives, but it still falls short of listing everything..ie: Great Falls daily tribune...which is listed in the Library of Congress and that only goes to 1922, and I bet a visit to the Butte-Silver Bow archives in person would reveal more information.  Now that Coca-Cola labeling thing really has me wondering too?....Want to hear a really wild theory?Well it has to do with with how long paper labels were used. We know with Orange Crush they were used as late as 1923 right, as per the letter posted way back. I made the suggestion that they may have used them as late as 1927-28...and I may be wrong...could be more like 1924-26.  When the contents were listed for that Boxcar load of beverages(June 1924) they listed them all as *Alco orange crush, Alco lemon crush, Alco Coca-Cola, *etc.....I bet they all had paper labels because even Blue bird was shown in a SS bottle in that 1926 ad.I bet those Coca-Cola bottles...SS?,  had the same little Alco bottling label on them like my Orange Crush's do. Coca-Cola may have had strict labeling guidelines that did not allow them to be labeled together. I'll admit that's pretty out there![] but possible, so what we need to find is patented Coca-Coca bottles marked Butte with the proper date codes to disprove that, or maybe documentation from court proceedings that show what exactly the lawsuit was pertaining to.  .....ps love the hat eater image[]


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## Canadacan (Jun 22, 2015)

One last piece of the puzzle, wish I had found the before! *Anaconda Standard March 22, 1920* [attachment=Anaconda Standard March 22, 1920.png]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

For those who are interested in doing additional research, this link opens to about 265 newspaper listings for the Nevin-Frank company in the Anaconda Standard between 1920 and 1930. Unfortunately, it only shows snippet views of each article, and in order to open the entire article you would need to start a subscription. I have not subscribed but know it cost $16.25 for a month or $89.99 for a full year. It offers a free 7-day trial period, which I believe can be cancelled at any time during the first week without charge if you decide not to subscribe. It has a lot of search options that can access newspapers from various states and different time periods. It also has other types of records. I might try the free trial at some point and see what I can find regarding the lawsuit between Coca Cola and Nevin-Frank from 1926. As it stands now I haven't been able to find a single thing and still question the part about putting *paper *Nevin-Frank *cola* labels on Coca Cola bottles. I find it hard to believe that Coca Cola was doing anything with paper labels as late as 1926.  http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/SingleIndexListView.aspx?ix=newspaperarchives&qt=l&zfn=nevin+frank&zplace=anaconda&zdate=1920&zdater=10&publicationname=Anaconda+Standard


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

P.S. Or was it ...            putting paper Coca Cola labels on Nevin-Frank bottles? Whichever it was, it doesn't make sense to me!


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## Canadacan (Jun 22, 2015)

I cant seem to dig up anything yet but just to clarify this what member celerycola posted back in 2013: *'Nevin Frank was sued by Coca-Cola in 1926 for labeling their own cola with Coca-Cola labels.'*  Well there you go.....they did not label the patented hobble skirt bottle that's for sure! Here is a snippet from an article in Anaconda Standard May 3, 1925 and they claim that they have never had a compliant lodged for mislabeling....the key word here is Labeling  I know Petretti's guide shows labels, and the latest was shown to be 1917-1919. In the book The Man behind the Bottle by Norman L. Dean, he did say that by 1920 most bottlers used the hobble skirt. He also mentions that some bottlers were able to phase in the new bottle, in addition the advertising for those who opted a phase in featured both bottles.I clearly think Nevin-Frank Co. was one of those hold outs, and that they used the paper labels as long as possible.  *Anaconda Standard May 3, 1925*[attachment=Anaconda Standard .y 3, 1925 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

If someone can figure out how to open this book, details of the Coca Cola vs. Nevin-Frank lawsuit are probably right at our fingertips. I've tried to open it but this is all I have been able to come up with so far ...                                                           *http://tinyurl.com/ngq5y8f *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

Here's the subtitle of the book, which apparently was published in 1939 but refers to lawsuits prior to that ... "Opinions, Orders, Injunctions, and Decrees relating to unfair competition and infringement of Trade-mark"


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## Canadacan (Jun 22, 2015)

Looks like Library of Congress has a copy...nothing on microform/microfiche...book only.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

I discovered the book was done by the Coca Cola Company and includes references to numerous lawsuits that Coca Cola filed against various bottlers during the so called "Kola Wars." Like many of the other lawsuits, the Nevin-Frank case might have involved nothing more than them using the words "Kola" or "Cola" and not necessarily about Nevin-Frank putting actual Coca Cola labels on their bottles. I'm currently searching "Nevin-Frank Cola/Kola" to see if anything turns up.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

By the way, many of the Cola/Kola lawsuits filed by the Coca Cola Company that were decreed by the courts earlier were reversed later and allowed anyone to use the word Cola. The only thing the Coca Cola Company was able to maintain as their own was the word "Coca." I believe the majority of the lawsuits were reversed in 1939, which is when the lawsuit book was published.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

If the 2013 forum reference is accurate where it states ... *'Nevin Frank was sued by Coca-Cola in 1926 for labeling their own cola with Coca-Cola labels.'* ... then I have to wonder why anyone would be fooled by an old-school Coca Cola paper label when everyone was no doubt familiar with the contour/hobbleskirt bottle that had been in use for about ten years by that time.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2015)

Canadacan: I'm trying to determine when the first Coca Cola bottler was established in Butte, and keep seeing conflicting dates. Some say 1912 while others say 1929. Bill Porter's book does not list a straight-sided Coca Cola bottle for Butte, and it indicates there is no known example of a patent 1915 bottle. It does list a patent 1923 bottle for Butte as scarce, but those were not first distributed until 1928 - through 1938. What dates have you seen?


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## Canadacan (Jun 22, 2015)

I have seen an early SS for Billings, and that seems odd because it was a much smaller city at the time. Well I was wondering about Bill's book and what was listed. But not all 1915 patent bottles had the city embossed on the bottom.I have not seen much for the 1923 patent bottle other than the 1989 reproduction.When the Montana Coca-Cola Co. was reorganized and taken over It set up in Butte and was renamed the Butte Coca-Cola Company..this was in 1932. So I figure Nevin-Frank had it (Coca-Cola) from 1920-32? I do not know who had it prior to that...maybe the firm that they took over in 1920...Western Beverage co?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

You will recall this article I posted earlier from the Montana Standard (Butte) dated April 13, 1929. The way its worded, it sure sounds like it was the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte, but maybe it wasn't ??? Anyway, it boggles me to think Nevin-Frank would try and get away with putting Coca Cola labels on their own bottles, especially if there was a Coca Cola bottler in Butte in 1926. By 1926, every school boy and his brother must have been familiar with the hobbleskirt bottle, and its hard to image anyone accepting a substitute. But if there wasn't a Coca Cola bottler in Butte in 1926, then I can see Nevin-Frank possibly getting away with it. Its possible the only mislabeled bottles were those distributed to small towns and isolated grocery stores in the area. In order to get away with such a scam, the grocer would had to of been in cahoots with Nevin-Frank or else the grocer himself would have rejected the mislabeled bottles.


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Nevin-Frank Co was the bottler for Coca-Cola in 1924 as per the article I posted...why else would it have been listed? Anaconda Products Co. also lists Coca-Cola and Orange Crush in their product line in an ad from 1919. Still I have to wonder about the accuracy of the statement about Nevin-Frank labeling their own Cola with Coke's labels, should ask him where he got that information from, sometimes when you get information passed on down the line it gets changed.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

Because the 1924 article refers to the 1,480 bottles as *Alco *Coca Cola, I wonder if they were genuine Coca Cola or if they were the Nevin-Frank cola that was mislabeled? Have you seen any references stating that Nevin-Frank bottled actual Coca Cola? Because the lawsuit was filed in 1926, it wouldn't surprise me if the trademark infringement took place a year or two prior to that. One vague reference doesn't necessarily confirm that Nevin-Frank was a franchise Coca Cola bottler.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

P.S. Notice the individual counts of bottles in the 1924 article. The Alco Coca Cola has the lowest number of bottles and yet I would think it would have been the biggest seller. 8,072 bottles of Techo verses 1,480 bottles of Coca Cola seems strange to me.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

According to this 2011 article, the Godbout family was the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte in 1912 and remained in business for over 100 years.                                                                            ~ * ~ 
http://mtstandard.com/special_reports/economic_outlook_2011/it-s-all-about-the-cola/article_8eaaaf82-31a4-11e0-b98e-001cc4c03286.html

February 06, 2011 12:00 am  •  By Gerard O’Brien of the Montana Standard


Mile High Beverages will be marking its 100th anniversary in 2012 as a distributor for Coca-Cola products in Butte. "It's a rare anniversary," said Mile High President Chad Godbout. "Not many distributors have lasted 100 years, as many have been consolidated." Godbout and his sister, Heather Lean, run the operation at 520 Cobban, along with the oversight of their mother, Gaye, who inherited the business when her husband, and their father, Ron Godbout, died in August 2009. The business has been in the family name since the 1940s when Marlowe P. "Lefty" Godbout moved to Butte from Minneapolis to run the 7-Up distributorship. Later, he sold off part of that business and purchased Coke in 1957. "My granddad was a pitcher for Triple A baseball and had visited Butte. Back then, baseball was never a full-time job, but he saw the opportunity of opening up a *bottling company* in Butte for Coke. At the time, Coke was trucked from Missoula just once a week," Godbout said. While the distributorship doesn't bottle glass products anymore, it has expanded its line to bottled waters, vitamin water and Monster-drink products. "We used to sell three brands of soft drinks," Godbout recalls. "Now, there's nearly hundreds; Coke, Cherry coke, Diet Coke, Diet Cherry Coke, Coke Zero, etc." "I think my dad would be amazed that we're selling bottled water for over a $1 a botte," he said. Mile High has won the bid for supplying water and soft drinks to the Montana Folk Festival this July, a nice feather in their cap. Coke products have always bee in the Godbout family history. Chad started working in the warehouse when he was 10. "Dad was a good mentor. I used to load trucks during college when I was home on break," he said. After graduating from the University of Montana in 1997, he assumed the controller spot at Mile High. At age 33, he took over as president. The firm used to distribute Miller beer products until selling it to Summit Beverage in 2000. "We were getting a bit fractured with all the products we had. We were skipping over dollars trying to pick up dimes," he said of focusing on selling Coke products. "We sort of forgot we had the number one trademark in the world." The business is in an extremely competitive market, even for Butte which has four major distributorships. "We benefit from being in Montana where the cities are so far-flung. Coke doesn't like to have its products shipped more than 130 miles in a day. In extremely cold weather, softdrinks can easily freeze," Godbout said. The move to the water and other products has helped Mile Hige with a 3- to 5-percent growth over the last two years. That's good since many of the other Coke dealers have seen declines. The plant employs 35 people and has an annual payroll of $1 million. Mile High hopes to work with Nick Kujawa, the new owner of the Hiboru Tower in Uptown Butte, to refurbish the ghost ad "Drink Coca-Cola for 5 cents" building sign on the north side of the eight-story building. "As for 2011, I think we're going to see growth. It takes a team effort and we're small enough like a family, but big enough with resources to go after the competition," Godbout said. "Sometimes, when you're in second you're a little more hungry than the guy in first."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

Here's an example of what I was saying earlier about conflicting information. The first article about the Godbouts clearly says they were celebrating their 100th anniversary as a bottler in Butte. And yet this obituary for Marlow Phillip "Lefty" Godbout states ...                                "And in 1957 he sold off his 7-UP distributorship and bought Coca-Cola."


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=130425377

Note: In Cecil Munsey's 1972 Coca Cola book, he states the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte, Montana was established in 1912.


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Huh interesting articles . I can see that Techo would have sold much more product during prohibition than Coca-Cola, but when you compare that shipment of 8,072 bottles of Techo compared to Coke's 1480 it seems off, you need to remember to factor in all the other soda's combined and it shows soda's were kicking butt! This still tells us nothing more about Nevin-Frank Co's involvement with Coca-Cola....it's still a mystery[&:] *Anaconda Standard December 22, 1921*[attachment=Anaconda Standard December 22, 1921.png]  And yes it is possible they put a generic cola in bottles and sold it as Coca-Cola, but that just seems way off given Mr Nevins status in the business. I still can't find anything in the papers in regards to the lawsuit.


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Here is a ad for Blue Bird again, note it says demand Alco labeled beverages and it depicts the SS bottle....I have no doubt the label they mean is like the Alco one's on my Crush bottles, don't forget about the other National brand that has the same label..'Concord Punch'. Most bottlers updated their advertisements as soon as they switched to new bottles. Anaconda Products Co. first show the patented Crush bottle with the new 'Handy Pack' in June 1923.... Nevin Frank Co. 's first ad with the same bottle is not until June 1926...this is what I have found so far to date. Then Blue Bird with their patented bottle appears in 1927. I really strongly believe Nevin Frank Co. pushed the SS bottles as long as they could...and really still have a gut feeling the lawsuit was nothing more than an SS bottle with the Alco label attached to the bottom. If Coke seen that they would have flipped out right?....after all no other company in the USA's history filed more copyright infringements than Coca-Cola company.Having your label beside theirs had to be considered infringement at least in their opinion.I can't answer why there is no other mention of Coca-Cola in Butte at that time or before....that part is strange.  *Anaconda Standard April 29, 1925 *[attachment=Anaconda Standard ...9, 1925 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

If the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte was in 1912, then it couldn't have been Lefty Godbout who started it because he wasn't born until 1907 and would only have been five years old at the time. The 100th anniversary must have been for whoever Lefty purchased the company from. But who was that somebody? Surely not Nevin-Frank who didn't get started until about 1920.


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Maybe it was 'Western Beverage Company' that Nevin acquired in 1920?...I believe also known as 'North Western Bottling Works'?....I found the catalog but it's the darn 1923 edition!...we need the 1939 edition[&:] and from of all the places...Toroto Canada!..lol https://archive.org/detai...colaopinions00cocauoft


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

The main thing I'm looking for is confirmation of a Coca Cola franchise bottler in Butte between about 1915 and 1925? If there was such a bottler and it turns out not to have been Nevin-Frank, then it might shed some light on the 1926 lawsuit. I have seen enough tid-bits of information to convince me there was indeed a Coca Cola bottler in Butte as early as 1912, but I just can't find the confirmation I'm looking for to prove it. If Nevin-Frank and a separate Coca Cola bottler were in operation at the same time around 1926, then for me that opens up an entirely new ball game. But first I need to find Nevin-Frank and the Butte Coca Cola Bottling Company at the same place and at the same time.


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Well I did find them but not that early....and notice that North West Bottling Co. is listed....I think they went by a few different names as type setters never always got it right. *Montana Standard June 7, 1939*  [attachment=Montana Standard J.e 7, 1939 - Copy.png]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

I've seen similar references from that time period, but its the 1925ish dates I can't find.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

I scanned this from my copy of Cecil Munsey's 1972 book ...                                                        "The Illustrated Guide To The Collectibles Of Coca Cola"                                            (Montana listings of the start-up dates for Coca Cola bottlers nationwide)                                                                                      [Page 304]


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## Canadacan (Jun 23, 2015)

Where the heck dose that 1912 date come from?..hmmm. I have contacted celerycola from the form....I know him from facebook and posted a message about the comment he made here. So he has all three copy's!.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2015)

Just because we can't find any advertisements stating that the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte was in 1912 doesn't mean it wasn't the case. As evidenced on these links, they wouldn't have gone through so much hoopla to celebrate their 100th anniversary if someone hadn't been bottling Coca Cola in Butte in 1912. And at this juncture I don't think it matters who was operating it. What matters is there was a Coca Cola bottler in Butte in 1912 and that there was a Coca Cola bottler located there throughout the Nevin-Frank era between about 1920 and 1940. Which leads me to believe if Nevin-Frank was putting Coca Cola labels on their own bottles that the Butte Coca Cola Bottling Company was probably well aware of it. So the question for me now isn't whether or not there was a Coca Cola bottler in Butte in the early to mid 1920s, which I have no doubt there was, but my question now is ... *Did the Coca Cola Company actually take Nevin-Frank to court for putting Coca Cola labels on their own bottles? And if so, what were the circumstances of that lawsuit?* *                     Butte, Montana Coca Cola Bottling Celebrates 100th Anniversary  ~  1912-2012 * 
http://mtstandard.com/news/local/coke-celebration-in-butte/article_b8e3c54a-cd5c-11e1-aadf-001a4bcf887a.html


http://mtstandard.upickem.net/engine/Welcome.aspx?contestid=59466


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 24, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> *Did the Coca Cola Company actually take Nevin-Frank to court for putting Coca Cola labels on their own bottles? And if so, what were the circumstances of that lawsuit?*



                                                   A few more questions that come to mind are ... 1.  *Was Nevin-Frank ever an authorized/franchised bottler of Coca Cola?*2.  *If Nevin-Frank was a bottler of Coca Cola, when was it?*3.  *If Nevin-Frank was a bottler of Coca Cola at some point, were they bottling it at the time of the alleged  **mislabeling lawsuit?* To help answer part of these questions, because the following references from 1929 and 1932 show no indication of Nevin-Frank being involved in the operations listed, I feel it is safe to assume that Nevin-Frank had nothing to do with Coca Cola between 1929 and 1932, otherwise their name would certainly have been included in these articles from ...                          1.  The Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ April 13, 1929                         2.  The Montana Butte Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ May 25, 1932                         3.  1932 Directory - Notice Nevin-Frank of Butte and Coca Cola of Butte are listed separately Note:  In the 1932 article, notice the name change from Montana Coca Cola Bottling Company to Butte Coca Cola Bottling Company. Reminder:  Nevin-Frank was in operation for twenty years between 1920 and 1940


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 24, 2015)

Canadacan: In my opinion, the 1924 article you posted about Nevin-Frank shipping Alco Coca Cola to Yellowstone does not in itself confirm that Nevin-Frank was an authorized/franchised bottler of Coca Cola. In fact, the use of the word *Alco* Coca Cola might be our first glimpse of the mislabeling allegation.


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## Canadacan (Jun 25, 2015)

It really is difficult to say for sure what the deal was. Maybe Nevin-Frank had a generic cola and labeled it Coca-Cola?...we can only keep guessing and assuming at this point until we see those court documents, and then maybe that will confirm if they were a authorized bottler, and when the allegation actually occurred.But I cant help to still I keep digging []!....... I looked at this ad again, originally we focused on the Orange Crush aspect of it, but it firstly mentions Coca-Cola in the regulation bottle...this ad was placed 9 days after the big shipment of Alco story in June 1924.So according to Eureka bottling of Billings they used the proper bottles at this time. *Billings Gazette July 1, 1924 * - clipping from 'Making of sody pop is one of the most interesting processes'  *[attachment=Billings Gazette J.y 1, 1924 - Copy.jpg] *


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2015)

Canadacan:                                                              When you wrote ...                                            "they used the proper bottles at this time"                        ... which "they" were you referring to - Eureka Bottling or Nevin-Frank? Or are you just attempting to establish the 'ribbed' (contour/hobbleskirt) Coca Cola bottle was being used in Montana in 1924?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2015)

I might be digging a little too deep with this, but I thought I'd share it anyway because one clue often leads to another. I came across this while trying to determine the lineage of Coca Cola in Butte. The earliest reference I can find for a Coca Cola 'bottler' in Butte is 1912. But this 1907 advertisement shows a Lutey Brothers Grocery as an "agent" for Coca Cola. Except I'm not sure if the term 'agent' means they were the only ones distributing it or if it simply means they sold it along with numerous other grocers. But one thing is certain, Coca Cola was being sold in Butte at least as early as 1907 and possibly even earlier.


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## Canadacan (Jun 25, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Canadacan:                                                              When you wrote ...                                            "they used the proper bottles at this time"                        ... which "they" were you referring to - Eureka Bottling or Nevin-Frank? Or are you just attempting to establish the 'ribbed' (contour/hobbleskirt) Coca Cola bottle was being used in Montana in 1924?


Yes I meant ...they as in Eureka Bottling.And yes just trying to establish when the Hobbleskirt was being used....for all we know Eureka Bottling may have just converted that year?....assuming that phase in period of years that bottlers had the option of doing.Yea that's getting early now for mentioning Coca-Cola in Butte, but I bet several drug stores offered it. I think I saw an add for it in 1900, but that was in Anaconda.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2015)

Canadacan: Are you subscribed to this newspaper archives or one similar to it?  If not, I'm going to subscribe on July 1st and see what I can find. I'd do it now except my monthly allotment of satellite Internet gigabytes is so low I can barely function as it is. On the first of each month my gigabytes are restored and I'm good to go again. If you are a satellite user, you know what I mean.  http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/SingleIndexListView.aspx?ix=newspaperarchives&qt=l&zfn=nevin+frank&zplace=anaconda&zdate=1920&zdater=10&publicationname=Anaconda+Standard


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2015)

And if you change the search option to ...                                                 Coca Cola / Montana / 1920 + 10 Years                                                              ... it produces this ... http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/singleindexlistview.aspx?ix=newspaperarchives&&qt=l&zfn=Coca+Cola&zplace=Montana&zdate=1910&zdater=10&zbdater=0&zddater=0&se=Exact


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## Canadacan (Jun 25, 2015)

Yes I did a the 3 day trial on newspaperarchive.com, then hit the trial limit for views....then bit the bullet and subscribed for the monthly fee= expensive, but it's unlimited views....not sure how many downloads they allow per month. I'll probably cancel before next months dues because I'll be busy working.Not sure what papers they have access to but mine did not have the Great Falls tribune...that came from Library of Congress.Did I show you this list? https://sites.google.com/site/onlinenewspapersite/Home/usa/mt....and yes your right you do have to play with the search parameters a bit. ...PS...I did see those Coca-Cola ads...none of them are attributed to a bottler.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2015)

The site I posted links to is called "WorldVitalRecords"  I'll check it out on July 1st and see what I can find


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## Canadacan (Jun 30, 2015)

Courtesy of celerycola....the pages, thanks again for that. Well I can only assume the labels in question where Alco labels with the printed 'Coca-Cola' in a similar block form as the other flavors. There was an injunction and Nevin-Frank Co. was ordered to not use the name Coca-Cola, and had to pay $3000 in damages...apparently the decision was made in 1927.This also now helps to explain the lack of advertising for the product. [attachment=Coca-Cols vs Nevin-Frank.jpg][attachment=Coca-Cols vs Nevin-Frank 2.jpg] I can only assume this was the style of  label they used, it makes the most sense to me as his counterfeits would have sort of blended in....but you have to wonder where would he have sold them if there was a authorized bottler already in Butte?....maybe they were on that boxcar load of soda's headed for Yellowstone! [attachment=Alco- Nevin Frank ...ca 1920 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Canadacan: The article you posted is very interesting. Do you happen to know the magazine/document it came from and the date it was published? It would be neat if we could find an image of one of those labels, which I have looked for but have been unable to find so far. I agree it seems odd that Nevin-Frank would use a Coca Cola type label when there was a Coca Cola bottler in Butte at the time. But whatever the circumstance were, they obviously didn't get away with it, at least not for very long.                                                                                      ~ * ~  I subscribed to WorldVitalRecords.com this morning, but discovered it is not what I would call user friendly. It will only allow me to save newspaper pages in a pdf format, which then have to be converted to a jpg image file. The attached article took about 15 minutes to save/convert/crop, which is a real pain in the you-know-what. I will continue to search for various articles, but will only save and post those that I feel are directly related to this discussion. Notice in this article where it says Nevin-Frank took over the Centennial Brewing Company and the Western Beverage Company and moved into the plant of Centennial Brewing. Especially notice where it says ... *               " ... carrying on the business already established by the Western Beverage Company"* This suggest whatever Western Beverage was producing at the time, that Nevin-Frank continued to produce. So what we need to determine now is, what was Western Beverage producing, and especially if they were a Coca Cola bottler in 1920. The article is from ... The Anaconda Standard ~ Anaconda, Montana ~ March 22, 1920 (Which provides us with a fairly specific date as to when Nevin-Frank began operation)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

P.S.                       Notice there is no mention of *Alco *in the article I just posted. I wonder why?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Possible answer ...                           Because Alco didn't enter the picture until 1926 when Nevin-Frank expanded.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm getting better - this one only took 10 minutes to save/convert. However, as usual, it has me a little confused. Even though its from the Anaconda Standard, it refers to businesses in Butte. Notice it list the Western Beverage Company and Alco Beverages together. What's additionally confusing about it is ... 1.  Its from *1918*2.  It list Western Beverage as the only soft drink manufacture in Butte and not Centennial or Coca Cola     (I will have to double check and see exactly what the listings pertain to) From ... The Anaconda Standard ~ Anaconda, Wyoming ~ September 6, *1918* By the way, the reason this an other archives don't list very many newspaper articles from Butte is because newspapers from Butte prior to about 1930 either don't exist or haven't been digitalized yet Note:  I'm still searching for article about Coca Cola vs Nevin-Frank but haven't found anything yet


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

In other words ... The Alco brand existed in Butte as early as 1918 and was not connected with Nevin-Frank, who didn't exist at the time, but appears to have its roots with The Western Beverage Company


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Now we know what the 1920 article meant when it said ...            " ... carrying on the business already established by the Western Beverage Company"                                                    (Which included Alco beverages)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Canadacan: I'm not sure how long I will be able to continue searching WorldVitalRecords because opening pdf files gobbles-up gigabytes like candy. So please let me know if there is something specific you would like me to search for, such as anything else related to Orange Crush. I just checked my gigabyte usage, which was renewed to 100% last night at midnight, and I have already used 2% of my allowable bytes by opening only about five newspaper articles. At this rate I will be back to zero before I know it.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

I double checked the 1918 Anaconda newspaper and the two page listings were under the title of ... *                 Classified Business And Professional Directory Of Butte And Its Territory*                                                              With a subtitle of ... *Containing The Names, Address And Telephone Numbers Of The Leading Business And Professional Interest* It doesn't say if the businesses had to pay to be listed, but it appears it was only for "*Leading*" businesses and not for all businesses in Butte in 1918. However, I'd think Coca Cola would have been considered a leading business if they were operating in Butte as early as 1918. But then again, maybe Coca Cola wasn't considered a "leading" business in 1918. ???


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Canadacan said:
			
		

> I love this next ad as it still depicts the second generation label and also reaffirms to me that the bottle date I assumed was either 1919 or 1920 for my paper label is more than likely. *Anaconda Standard June 3, 1920*  *Anaconda Standard August 9, 1920* [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=0;677818&where=message&f=Anaconda Standard July 8, 1920.png[/attachImg]                                [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=1;677818&where=message&f=Anaconda Standard August 9, 1920.png[/attachImg]



Canadacan: This ad isn't earth-shaking, but it tells us that Anaconda Products Company was bottling both Orange Crush and Coca Cola in 1919, which is one year prior to when Nevin-Frank was established and began bottling Orange Crush in Butte, which was in 1920. I realize this doesn't tell us much, but it at least tells us that some bottlers of Orange Crush also bottled Coca Cola. Now if I can just find a connection between Nevin-Frank and Coca Cola, I'll be "in like Flint."  []


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Oops, I forgot to mention the last ad I posted was from ...                                               The Anaconda Standard  ~  July 6, 1918


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

The book is that Coca-Cola Injunctions one ... from 1939.I had posted that article already back on page??? whatever that was, so I already knew Nevin-FrankCo. continued with Western Beverage Company products, and never a mention of Coca-Cola.Nevin-Frank had some connection to Anaconda products....I wonder if they had franchise rights to Coke?..I suspect not! I did notice those Anaconda products ads during research that list Coca-Cola and Orange Crush.Alco was mentioned in the boxcar article 1924...so before the expansion...plus the early registration of the name.There was something I ran across that was Alco related but can't find it now...I'll have to think about that.


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

Maybe I was just thinking of the Alco Iron Bock....I noticed in this ad from May 1924 it mentions Iron Bock....but in the boxcar article its no longer listed...anyways I suppose this none irrelevent other than the fact it shows they advertised Coca-Cola one month earlier. *Anaconda Standard May 11, 1924* *[attachment=Anaconda Standard May 11, 1924.png] *


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Oops, I forgot to mention the last ad I posted was from ...                                               The Anaconda Standard  ~  July 6, 1918


*No you posted right the first time July 6, 1919*


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

I can only imagine but here would be an example of the caps Nevin-Frank would have used as so not to draw to much attention to themselves, I highly doubt they copied the Coca-Cola style font.  [attachment=Coca-Cola injunctions 1923 - Copy.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Yeah, I realized that date mix-up afterwards but didn't get around to correcting my typo. Thanks.                                                                           ~ * ~  Because the archives I'm searching require so much time and effort to open, save and convert, I have only been looking at snippet views and have already seen enough to convince me that Nevin-Frank did in fact *advertise *and *sell *some form of Coca Cola. But what I can't find is whether the so called Coca Cola they sold and advertised was genuine Coca Cola or a knockoff, mislabeled imitation. No matter how many types of word searches I perform, I cannot find one that says Nevin-Frank was an authorized, franchised bottler of Coca Cola. I did find an ad that said Anaconda Products Company was a bottler of Coca Cola in 1919, but I'm not sure what, if any, actual connection there was between Anaconda Products and Nevin-Frank other than their names are sometimes listed together in the same advertisements. Other than the ads I mentioned, have you seen any direct connection between Anaconda Products and Nevin-Frank?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

P.S. The 1920 ads I'm referring to, which can be seen at the top of this page, appear to have been generated by the parent Orange Crush company and not necessarily because of any direct connection between Anaconda Products and Nevin-Frank. But I could easily be convinced otherwise by finding the right article to substantiate the connection.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Canadacan: You posted portions of this 1924 article earlier about Nevin-Frank shipping Coca Cola to Yellowstone, but I don't believe you posted this portion I cropped where it says ...  " ... received in concentrated form, mixed by the formulas sent out by the manufacturers, carbonated, bottled, labeled and shipped throughout the territory." Of course, its still not a smoking gun to indicate Nevin-Frank was a franchised Coca Cola bottler, but it does tell us that some of their concentrates were ordered from parent companies. The Anaconda Standard ~ June 22, 1924


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

I still haven't found a smoking gun, but I did come across a 1925 Anaconda newspaper that showed a Nevin-Frank *bowling team *and a Coca Cola *bowling team* listed separately on the same page, which suggest to me there was no connection between the two companies in 1925, otherwise I would think there would have been only one team called "The Nevin-Frank Coca Cola" bowling team.(Sometimes big clues come in small packages).


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

Yes that pretty much tells the story, I don't think they ever were an authorized bottler of Coca Cola period.


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

It seems impossible to locate a *national advertisement* for Coca-Cola with a local bottlers name attached to it that we seek. I can find dozens from the 1915 era but no bottler is mentioned.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Talk about a smoking gun ...  This 1925 article is about the Nevin-Frank fire and is the only picture of the company buildings I have seen. I tried my best to enhance the images of the signs, but I cannot make out exactly what the lower sign says - but it appears there "might" be a couple of capital C's on it. But let's not jump to any conclusions until the sign is fully analyzed. From ... The Anaconda Standard  ~  November 16, 1925


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

P.S. The portion I posted is Page 2 of a two page article. There is nothing on either page that mentions Coca Cola or any other specific brand names that were manufactured by Nevin-Frank. The article says there was another building (warehouse) across the street, but that it was undamaged by the fire.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Yeah, I see it, too. The lower sign sure looks like it has Coca Cola on it. But let's be sure before we start celebrating []


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## Canadacan (Jul 1, 2015)

Yea I downloaded that ad last week but never posted it because it never revealed anything that I could see, it's the only photo showing the plant I could ever find.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

After careful examination, I'm seeing ...                                                              Top Sign = Nevin Frank Co.                                                  Bottom Sign = Nevin Frank Bottling Company                                                    The first page of the article mentions ...                       "tons of candy, countless smaller articles, notions, novelties and other merchandise." Which would have been products of the Nevin-Frank Company, with the Bottling Company being a separate entity within the same company. So no smoking gun and no Coca Cola.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Canadacan said:
			
		

> Yes that pretty much tells the story, I don't think they ever were an authorized bottler of Coca Cola period.



                                                                   Ditto - I concur                                                        No evidence to prove otherwise*.*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2015)

Just fooling around / Correction ... Based on the size of the letters on the top sign, the lower sign probably contains no more than 15 letters, which would be too many for NEVIN FRANK BOTTLING CO. (So it probably says something else).


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

I realize this thread has just about run its course, but because there are still a few unanswered questions remaining, I offer the following for future reference. To start with is this possible alternative for what might be written on the sign I posted earlier. Based on what we've seen so far, including bottle labels, advertisements, etc; its rare to see the name Nevin-Frank Co. without Alco Beverages being tied in with it. Hence, my new "guess" as to what might be written on the factory sign pictured below ... (To be continued shortly with what "might" be a 1913 listing for the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte, Montana)


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## Canadacan (Jul 3, 2015)

Yea I went looking for another picture of the fire...which I did find one but it's on the wrong angle and the sign is not visible.I looked at that picture, manipulated the contrast, the color, brightness...but I could not get anything more, I speculated too that it may have Alco or even Techo in it....could even be *Alco Bottling? * Does the sign appears to have white lettering above and darker below?Hey there is always more stuff to add!...and the nature of these threads do wonder off course from time to time but it's part of the discovery process, and so long as were talking about Montana related and anthing backing up the therory's disscussed it's all good to me![]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

Canadacan: I too suspect the lower sign might have a light background with dark lettering, but whatever the case, I just can't say for certain what it says and will leave that for a forensic-type of detective to figure out like they do on TV.                                                                             ~ * ~   Next up is this list of soft drink bottlers located in Butte, Montana as of *1913*, a few of which have not been mentioned during the course of this thread ....                                                              *Holland Rink Bottling Works* *Keenan Manufacturing Company* *Northwestern Bottling Works**                                                               Rocky Mountain Bottling Works* Now here's the tricky part, which I admit is somewhat speculative/assumptive, but could very well be a reference for the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte, which we have seen references to earlier that indicate the first Coca Cola bottler in Butte was established in 1912. This link is to a Montana public health document dated September 15, 1913. It contains about 20 pages, a few of which are devoted to the testing of various brands of soda pop in Butte.                                             https://archive.org/details/bulletinofdepar1913mont_7                                           The attached images are pages from the 1913 document ...  1.  Cover2.  Page 163.  Page 17 Notice: A.  The test dates are all for 8-30-13  (August 30, 1913)B.  The various bottlers are grouped individually. I.E; The Holland Rink brands are one after the other, as are the     Northwestern Bottling Works brands listed one after the other.C.  Which brings us to Rocky Mountain Bottling Works. Notice right in the middle of the R.M.B.W. listings we find ...                                                                           *COCO COLA*  I could be wrong, but I can't imagine Coco Cola (obviously misspelled) being listed right in the middle of the brands for Rocky Mountain Bottling Works if it was not they who were bottling it at the time. I found this document this morning and have not had time to fully research the Rocky Mountain Bottling Works. But I do know they made some Hutchinson bottles and were in business for a long time. Hence, more research is required to determine if they did in fact bottle Coca Cola at some point in time. By the way, by clicking on the small magnifying glass after opening the link, it will allow you to do your own word searches within the document. The Coco Cola reference is the only Coca Cola related listing in the entire book. But everyone can do their own searches and see what else might be found.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

For future reference ...  Rocky Mountain Bottling Works A myriad of rail-dependent businesses located in this area during the last decades of the nineteenth century, Hinds & Company, proprietors of the Rocky Mountain Bottling Works and agents for the Anheuser-Busch Brewing Association, moved here in 1897. In 1900, the operation included a bottling plant at the front loading platform along the railroad siding to the south and an ice house with adjacent keg storage. The tin floor of the ice house is intact and the heavy beams supporting it are still visible. A stable at the rear accommodated the company’s teams; its bricked-in windows document the passing of horse-drawn delivery. Proprietors Browne and Finnigan commissioned Nelson and Pederson to rebuild the frame facility in 1911. The flat parapeted roofs and ornamental brickwork are characteristic of Butte’s Industrial buildings. On the eve of Prohibition in 1916, the front building was a *soda bottling plant *and beer was still stored in the two-story section. By 1920, the company was out of business. Bottles embossed with “Rocky Mountain Bottling Works – Butte” are today prized among antique collectors.


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## Canadacan (Jul 3, 2015)

That Coco-Cola has to be an imitator...I can't see the typist or typesetter making the error twice?...but mabey!..lol Northwestern Bottling Works is the one Nevin-Frank took over, although in the 1920 article they refer to it as the Western Beverage Co.???...that has to be a mistake by the reporter,  and latter in 1939 the mention of North West Bottling Co.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

Coca Cola is often misspelled as typos. But regardless of that for the moment, remember this 1932 document that shows Northwestern Bottling Works listed separately from Nevin-Frank, but are located in the same town at the same time?  Plus, there's this Northwestern Bottling Works bottle currently on eBay with an Owens-Illinois mark that looks like a 4 but it could be some other number. But whatever the date number is, it would have to be later than 1929, which is when Owens-Illinois was established. In 1929 Nevin-Frank had been around for about nine years. I'm about 95% certain that Western Beverage Company (which is the one Nevin-Frank took over in 1920) and Northwestern Bottling Works were two entirely different companies. eBay link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/121677293272?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT   1.  1932 Document2.  eBay bottle3.  eBay bottle base


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

1920 newspaper reference showing Western Beverage Company ...


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## Canadacan (Jul 3, 2015)

Naw can't be possible...then why is  Northwestern Bottling works listed right below Nevin-Frank co.? ...and they are both listed for Alco beverages, Techo ginger Ale. I think the reference to Western Beverage Company in 1920 is a mistake...the only mention of it seems to be in that article. Guess I'm reading that chart wrong...but still where is Western Beverage Company then???


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

Canadacan said:
			
		

> I think the reference to Western Beverage Company in 1920 is a mistake...the only mention of it seems to be in that article.



                  1.  Are you saying this *1918* reference for the Western Beverage Company is another typo? https://books.google.com/books?id=HLkrAQAAMAAJ&pg=PR48-IA31&dq=western+beverage+company+butte+montana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qfmWVbqiIcfxoATl4pqQDQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=western%20beverage%20company%20butte%20montana&f=false                  2.  And what about this *1918 *reference?                                                                                    ~ * ~ I thought it was already established that Western Beverage Company was where the name ALCO originated?


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## Canadacan (Jul 3, 2015)

oh yea!...crap I got confused![]..lol[]...Yes right different owner on Northwestern.Carry on sir...[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

No problem-o **it happens to all of us including me []  There are dozens of ads for Northwestern Bottling Works in the Montana newspapers, including this one from ...                                        The Montana Standard ~ Butte, Montana ~ April 5, *1947*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 3, 2015)

So I'm back to researching the Rocky Mountain Bottling Works, which operated in Butte between about 1897 and 1920, to see if I can find anything else to indicate they bottled Coca Cola during that time period. I haven't found anything else yet, but I'm just now beginning my search and will report back later if/when I find anything.                                                                 Have a great 4th of July  Bob


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## Canadacan (Jul 3, 2015)

Sounds good Bob...you have a Happy and safe 4th of July Too!Ye I did not notice that ad that late...I did see some from the 30's though.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2015)

Hey, Canadacan

Did you see this currently on eBay? I thought you might be interested in it. Check  it out!

Merry Christmas

Bob


http://www.ebay.com/itm/231790893172?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Canadacan (Dec 21, 2015)

Yea funny thing since you started that thread I had been looking and noticed that bottle!... Nice one too with the U7P.... My friend recently picked up a couple paper labeled 7up's from Frank Nevin.


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## mrosman (Apr 3, 2019)

Nice review of Alco.... similar picture on p.33 of my book
Michael


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## Canadacan (Apr 3, 2019)

mrosman said:


> Nice review of Alco.... similar picture on p.33 of my book
> Michael



Yes it is the same bottle...the one and only!, I sent that photo to you!.....you must have forgotten who I am?.. lol


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