# Archaeologist or looter?



## ScottBSA (Sep 29, 2013)

Just read a post where there was some discussion of digging bottles for fun and profit running up against archaeologists and historians.  Occasionally I see some information on line about a bottle or two from the local museum where they have them stored out of view, AND THE DATES ARE ALL WRONG!!!!  Sorry about that.  How hard is it to go the the library down the street and look up in the collection of city directories the published dates a company was in business or go to the court house across the street from the library and look up business and tax records.  I do research on the items in my collection.  The bottles are cataloged.  For many of the bottles I can tell you not only who owned the company, but some biographical information about the owner and employees, when and where the bottle was made, if the building that housed the brewery or bottling works is still standing and have pictures to go with them.  I know lots of us care not only about the hunt, but the historical relationship between the bottle and where it was found.  
 I could go on, but you get the idea.
 By the way, one of the best museums with lots of bottles is in Kansas City with the Steamboat Arabia Museum.  If you are ever in town it is a must see.

 Scott


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## MichaelFla (Sep 29, 2013)

I know in Florida they have made it illegal to dig in any navigable water way or body of water over 160 acres without 1) Being an archaeologist, anthropologist, or have a masters or above in history; and 2) Having a permit from the state specific to the site they want to dig. It is also illegal to pick up anything from those same waters that is over 50 years old. Picking up items over 50 years old from the bottom of the waterway is a misdemeanor, while digging in the waterway for bottles (or any collectible item) is a felony. There is a minimum fine of $500. 
 Once I finish getting the degree I am currently working on and getting a decent paying job, I will go back and get a masters in History, just so I can collect bottles legally


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## sandchip (Sep 30, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  ScottBSA
> 
> By the way, one of the best museums with lots of bottles is in Kansas City with the Steamboat Arabia Museum.  If you are ever in town it is a must see.
> 
> Scott


 
 And the clincher is that it was done entirely by private citizens with private money and NO government anything.  Everything found is on display, not the good stuff hidden away for ivory tower eyes only.  Hawley's book, Treasure in a Cornfield is one of the best and most amazing things I've ever read.


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## cowseatmaize (Sep 30, 2013)

> it was done entirely by private citizens with private money and NO government anything.


I doubt that. Some local, state or federal agency was at the very least watching the whole thing, maybe even funding it somehow.
 They got it done right and that's what counts.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 30, 2013)

The steamboat story was interesting. 
 Weren't they a group that thought there was gold or silver on the wreck?
 It turned out there was just a bunch of cool cargo so the museum was a way to try and still make some money out of the fiasco.
 That was the impression I got, maybe wrong.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 30, 2013)

> I doubt that. Some local, state or federal agency was at the very least watching the whole thing, maybe even funding it somehow. They got it done right and that's what counts.


 
 Don't bet on this... it was entirely private.  They were initially just going to salvage, but the scope of what was found was so astounding and fascinating they saved everything and then took years of their lives to find support for the museum that truly is a must see.  I never get tired of going.  It should be the top item on the bucket list of everyone in this forum.


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## Potlidboy (Sep 30, 2013)

Many years ago I had the pleasure of sitting with the Hawleys in their office & talking about the wreck of the Arabia.....The entire operation was private (no government assistance or intervention).  At one point they actually tried to get some government assistance in conserving the items & parts of the wreck. Our government turned them down...the rational was that if the government were to assist in preserving the items coming from the wreck, it would encourage other private citizens to do similar projects.....In other words our government would rather let the items found on the Arabia deteriorate then be conserved .  The Hawleys finally found assistance from archeologists in Canada....The museum surrounding the Arabia is first class....The attitude of our government toward bottle diggers is archaic....It seems to me the government would benefit a great deal from enlisting the knowledge & labor of its citizens rather then treat the entire thing the way the do.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 30, 2013)

The government (we the people) gets grief when they spend money on stuff like that and they get grief when they don't provide funding for stuff like that. 
 I would assume they took the decision of least pain, not funding it.
 Some groups are calling for everything to be privately funded so it may be the future.
 I'll admit that Walmart may be faster making my drivers license than the DMV but I still don't like Walmart.


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## cowseatmaize (Sep 30, 2013)

> I'll admit that Walmart may be faster making my drivers license than the DMV but I still don't like Walmart.


Talk about getting around any rule or regulation! If you need to know, ask them. 
 I've seen some prime wetland filled in to make a wallymart. Now it's streets and houses in the nearby that get flooded from the runoff and more traffic lights to stop at. 
 Sorry but I hate them, never bought a thing from them and never plan to.


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## Potlidboy (Sep 30, 2013)

AntiqueMeds.......We the people.....yep that about sums it up......The Hawleys did not ask for money...just knowledge. So sad they had to go to Canada for advise....This was not a money issue....This was a â€œboys clubâ€ mentality. I'm sorry, but I have seen just too much poor government in this area.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 30, 2013)

so the post question was Archeologist or Looter.

 Archeology is basically the study of earlier cultures by examining physical artifacts of the cultures.

 If you research the proprietors or contents of your bottles , then you are an archeologist.
 If you write articles, blog , or make a web page describing your finds , then you are an archeologist.
 If you discuss early methods used to make bottles, then you are an archeologist. 
 If you learn to interpret insurance maps to locate privies, then you are an archeologist.
 If you educate a home owner about the history of their property and items found on it, then you are an archeologist.
 If you ponder why someone threw their false teeth in the privy, then you are an archeologist. 

 Don't be too hard on archeologists, you might be one.


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## cowseatmaize (Sep 30, 2013)

> so the post question was Archeologist or Looter.


Great point that's being missed. 
 It kinda belongs on any of the number of threads about the topic.
 Maybe this should be changed to "Steamship Arabia question?"


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## ScottBSA (Sep 30, 2013)

Thanks for the terrific input here.  I feel that I am an uncredentialed, research archaeologist.   Before I retired from teaching I looked heavily into getting a master's degree in history from one of the three large universities near Kansas City.  All of them required undergraduate degrees or at least a minor in history before one could even apply, and two of the colleges capped their enrollment at like 20 per year.  With the advent of internet learning, I am sure someone out there wants my money and will exchange cash for college credits.  I know a lot of us have intimate knowledge of a bottler, brewer, town, pharmacy, quack medicine company or what have you that would be worthy of a master's thesis.

 Thanks again for the input and come to KC to see the Steamboat Arabia.

 Scott


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## Potlidboy (Sep 30, 2013)

ScottBSA.......Good luck on your foray...I'm sure you will bring integrity to your chosen path.[]


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## reach44 (Sep 30, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> so the post question was Archeologist or Looter.
> 
> ...


 

 You forgot part of the definition.
 "If you are very handsome"

 I meet all of these requirements.  I guess I'm an archaeologist!!   [sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]  []


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## mctaggart67 (Oct 1, 2013)

I have mixed feelings about the state of the archaeology business up here in Canada (and it is a business with a vested financial interest in preserving potential dig sites, in order to get government grants to undertake digs). I read many Canadian archaeology journals and am struck by two things: 1) there is some very good professional work being done to locate, preserve and understand our material history, and 2) many in the archaeological sector truly do not like what we bottle collectors do with respect to digging and selling. I'll pass over the irony in their condemnation of us for making money selling artifacts, despite their own financial interests in connection with the same artifacts.

 What I do find irritating is their frequent dismissal of us bottle collectors as not having anything useful to impart toward the ends of locating, preserving and understanding our material history. Such rebukes verge on the childish. No matter that, ultimately archaeologists up here in Canada are staking out their territory by asserting their academic qualifications and professional credentials over our supposed lack of the same. One can read this as a tyranny of self-created privilege which runs like this: 1) we archaeologist believe that only the fully qualified and credentialed are capable of effectively dealing with material history, 2) we archaeologists are the only ones so qualified and credentialed, 3) therefore, only we archaeologists should be entitled to dig, research and assess, and 4) we archaeologists will make sure the law and our literature/publications reflect our viewpoint.

 Essentially, they've created an ivory tower into which only their own are admitted. And like all ivory-tower dwellers, they look down upon the rest of us and self-servingly ignore what we plebeian amateurs have to offer. So much for building bridges among people! So much for employing such bridges as a means to attain greater understanding!

 I've found this dismissiveness personally frustrating and consider it counterproductive to the very goals archaeologists claim as their professional purpose. An anecdote explains this. A few years ago, a local archaeological firm secured a government contract (grant $$$) to excavate in Calgary, Alberta's "East Village," a derelict part of town that was once the first permanently settled part of Calgary and which is now being redeveloped. The firm hit the proverbial jack-pot of early artifacts, including some great early local bottles, which I could see in the firm's workroom through a window. The firm's office happened to be in the same building as my wife's former place of work, so I routinely peeked through the window to gawk at the finds which were being catalogued. I asked if I could look at the bottles and share my research findings. I was met with, "Sorry, but that's just not possible" and so on. I explained that I have an MA in history and had undertaken intensive research into the people/companies behind many of the bottles they were cataloguing. Their reaction was pretty much the same, except now they emphasized that their primary job was to catalogue the bottles, pack them securely into coded bankers' boxes, and then ship them for permanent storage (yes, you read that correctly) in a warehouse facility in the provincial capital, Edmonton. What a great lose-lose situation! They didn't get any valuable historical info and I didn't get to see the bottles up close, even though the bottles were being saved on my behalf as a citizen of Alberta (in Canada, heritage protection/preservation is a provincial responsibility of law). 

 Now, I sound bitter, but I'm not. I just get on with enjoying my bottles and researching the history behind them and sharing the results with whomever wants to know what I learn, whether those people are high schoolers sitting in my classroom, fellow bottle collectors, or, yes, even archaeologists who want to venture beyond their ivory tower.

 Anyhow, I say dig away, research away, tumble away, sell away, trade away, buy away, but above all, enjoy away. Looters? Sticks and stones, my friends!


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## sandchip (Oct 1, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> so the post question was Archeologist or Looter.
> 
> ...


 
 Don't lump us amateur archaeologists in with the professionals.  There's a world of difference, primarily being that when the money runs out on excavating a site, so do they, whereas we will continue digging to the very end.  That being said, there's also a huge difference between amateur archaeologists and looters.  Unfortunately, like the proverbial bad apple, the looters, whose motive is usually the same as metal thieves, give us all a bad name, because the media chooses to place us all in the same category, hence, restrictive laws passed by uninformed do-gooders in high places.

 And no, not all professional archaeologists are bad.  There are still a few, very few, who are still collector-friendly, who realize there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained by an alliance with us.


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## justanolddigger (Oct 2, 2013)

> And no, not all professional archaeologists are bad. There are still a few, very few, who are still collector-friendly, who realize there is a wealth of knowledge to be gained by an alliance with u


 
  Well said, there is good & bad everywhere. My digging budding Tony & I just did a privy dig in a small Michigan town for their annual home tour. People buy tickets & get to go through houses, we pick a house & dig a privy while the tour is going on. Usually have about 300 people stop by & see what we are doing. Last year, the village was questioned about keeping records, so they hooked up with an archeological student who came & took notes about every pit we dug. She noted location, age, and all of the artifacts. Found the usual stuff, bottles, dishes, doll parts, lamp parts, she logged it all. It went very well, she accepted us & we accepted her. She even got to get dirty & dig a little and had a ball. I have no problem with them, as long as they have no problem with us, but the majority of archeologists do have a problem with us. I think we got along with her because she loved what she was doing as much as we loved digging.


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## AntiqueMeds (Oct 2, 2013)

I thought about going into the archeology field as a young man. I decided rather to pick a profession that paid well and enjoy archeology as an amateur.  No regrets yet.


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## cacarpetbagger (Oct 2, 2013)

Looter? I have been called worse.  The Arabia museum is a amazing and a tribute to what "amateurs " can contribute to preserving history.


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## NYCFlasks (Oct 5, 2013)

Some wise posts here, and I agree wholeheartedly with several of you.  I am at least 40 years in the hobby, and in those years I have presented programs for 30 to 40 groups, perhaps more, ranging from bottle clubs, to dive clubs, to car clubs, to many historical societies, one of which I am on the Board of Directors.
 Many are quite interested in our hobby, and our knowledge gleaned from hours of "digging" in directories and other historical references.  I have encountered a number in the "professional" field who are interested in our work, and are grateful for the knowledge we can share with them.
 I have also encountered those who refer to us as "pot hunters", "robbers" and worse.  One organization once they learned more of my intended program and my background then canceled me.  Funny, the program, which they requested was on local stoneware and the related potting industry on Long Island, which I have collected and researched for 40 years now.
 Likely we will never see the end of this dispute, and sadly, many in the "professional" arena will not have the benefit of the knowledge which we so passionately seek, and share.
 This is something in which, to me, it is hard to say there are winners, or losers among those in the debate.  Those whom are most passionate in their views are unlikely to be swayed by any arguments, pro or con.  
 The ultimate looser is the public really.


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## pchan (Oct 5, 2013)

Well, the thread I began with the same question on this site recently didn`t get this much action. Must be because I`m new here or.....could it be because I`m Canadian?....`ts OK, we`re accustomed to being ignored until theres a world war or something that the rest of youse need us to contribute to. 
 So carry on like I wasn`t even here.


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## epackage (Oct 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  pchan
> 
> Well, the thread I began with the same question on this site recently didn`t get this much action. Must be because I`m new here or.....could it be because I`m Canadian?....`ts OK, we`re accustomed to being ignored until theres a world war or something that the rest of youse need us to contribute to.
> So carry on like I wasn`t even here.


 This post got 5 more responses than yours did, and that includes the post above where you cry about not getting attention, I'd say it must be a Canadian thing, but none of the other Canadian members moans and complains the way you do. I think it's just you needing attention...


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## mctaggart67 (Oct 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  pchan
> 
> Well, the thread I began with the same question on this site recently didn`t get this much action. Must be because I`m new here or.....could it be because I`m Canadian?....`ts OK, we`re accustomed to being ignored until theres a world war or something that the rest of youse need us to contribute to.
> So carry on like I wasn`t even here.


 
 Umm, not sure how to respond to this, both as a Canadian and a bottle collector. Anyhow, I'll take a stab and say that threads come and go. Some get hot, as they either provoke participation or they get posted at just the right time when a large number are logged onto the forum. Not all of my postings get a response -- maybe they're too long-winded -- but I don't dwell on it. I just move on to the next topic. You've got to imagine that a forum is like a bottle show, with short conversations flaring up here and there.


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## surfaceone (Oct 6, 2013)

Looter Statue Fund Drive â€“ Despite it turning into an absolute fundraising failure, Iâ€™m still very proud of the effort the Fark Board gave to raise funds for the Looter Statue. Designed to stand the test of time and future flood waters, the monument would be composed of mosaic tiles with a dazzling Raku finish. The Looter Statue was going to be constructed in front of the St. Roch Market on St. Claude Avenue in New Orleans. On the first day we had pledges from Yurintroubl, Sawfiddle and BigEasy totaling almost $100. Unfortunately, our final tally of $136 and twelve Heinekens fell way short of the $100,000 needed to make the Looter Statue a reality. I wonder if President Obama might have an interest in helping us rekindle interest in the project.


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm kind of surprised this one got so much attention, the same premise has been done so many times.
 Premise, is that the word I'm looking for? [8|]


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## pchan (Oct 6, 2013)

OH......are we supposed to be serious ALL the time here? Didn`t know, sorry. It was an attempt at humor people, so far most of my attempts have been deleted so I`ll see if this one can be taken in the way it was intended by the overseers of the site. Not going to say anything about the cry comment other than to say you are one who misunderstood what I said. You know, I have stopped kidding around in class here because by the time my students get their dictionaries out and dissect each word, it`t ain`t funny anymore....so maybe I should just stick to that here too. And thanks mctaggart67, yeah, I`ve been around the web for some years now, know how it works, evidently you also missed the humor in my post.  And I though guitar players on the sites I`m a member of were a little too serious, boy....maybe I should just stay with reading on this site which is what I was doing before joining, didn`t know it was going to be this difficult.


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## pchan (Oct 6, 2013)

just had a thought, maybe you two guys should just put me on your ignore list that way you will be spared the pain of reading my posts and I won`t have to be serious all the time.


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## cowseatmaize (Oct 6, 2013)

Try a [] or 3 or "just kidding" or even a  at the end. 
 It really did sound like insecurity and you were insulted.


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## pchan (Oct 6, 2013)

No, it was interpreted that way by a couple of people it wasn`t intended as such. But I`ve had several posts deleted already by the people who run this site so I have asked to have my membership deleted, I`ll find another place to get info on bottles I find.


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## Plumbata (Oct 6, 2013)

No! Don't Go Pete-chan! I recognized the humor; the comment about the world wars kinda crystallized in my mind that your message was tongue-in-cheek. Early on I misinterpreted all sorts of comments and acted a fool in response to the misunderstandings, and likewise I've had perfectly innocent comments misinterpreted by others. There are many different personalities and perspectives interacting here so it can be difficult to figure out the real meaning and intentions behind this rather flat 2-dimensional communication format. I've had hundreds of posts deleted over the years and am none the worse for it. Life is a battlefield, so you should be prepared to wake up every morning ready to look any man square in the face and tell him to f*ck off and go to hell. [] Ultimately, the words one posts are only a reflection of a reflection of but one of a multitude of the facets that comprise a true individual (unless they are particularly simple and stupid people), so if someone takes offense to a few words and in reaction makes expansive character judgments without the additional evidence necessary to justify it, you should feel free to roll your eyes and ignore it all wholesale.


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## mctaggart67 (Oct 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  pchan
> 
> . . . And thanks mctaggart67, yeah, I`ve been around the web for some years now, know how it works, evidently you also missed the humor in my post . . .


 
 Gee whiz, I misread your post's intent. It did not come off as humorous, since it wasn't worded with any irony or light sarcastic phrases or emoticons, which would indicate a lighthearted posting and which we long-time internetites assume experienced forum surfers would use to project humour. Not using those techniques renders your posting raw and bitter sounding. To claim otherwise is unfair to your responders, who only saw the rawness and bitterness in your comment. To say anyone "evidently" did not see your humour is unfair and illogical, since your posting had no textual evidence, either in actual text or in subtext, which suggests humour. Sorry to say, but the problem is not how we have misread your posting; it is in how you have written it.

 So, if we are to get down to brass tacks here, the root of the entire miscommunication is your word choice. Now, I won't really hold it against you, since you may have written your original comment when tired or in a bad mood or pressed for time. Oh well, these things happen. Still, if you don't write humorously, how do you expect your readers to respond? Jim (epackage), others and I couldn't see the humour, so we replied accordingly. My intent was to convey to you that it's no biggie to be ignored or not answered fully on this forum. It happens to all of us.

 But now you're defending yourself with explanations laced with juvenile declarations and insulting implications. These cannot be ascribed to fatigue, etc., since such are deliberate attempts on your part to denigrate others, including me. This much is clear -- no emoticons necessary. Even so, your choice to leave is misplaced and too extreme a reaction to the whole sorry direction this thread has taken. I'm big enough to apologize to you if my word choice was insulting. So, sorry for the condescending tone in my first reply to you.


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## pchan (Oct 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  mctaggart67
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


 ....edited.....decided I just don`t wanna keep this going. thats what you think, fine by me.....not like we`re friends or anything, just more crap on the web.


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## RED Matthews (Dec 23, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Archaeologist or looter?*

THANKS for the good reading.  Smiles were made here.  RED M.


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