# Iron pontils



## opmustard (Jan 15, 2021)

Hi,
I was wondering what is the best way to preserve the iron on a pontiled soda while tumbling?
Any info would help.
Thank you, 
opmustard


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## yacorie (Jan 15, 2021)

Anyone tumbling bottles should know how to do it - but there are a bunch of options that include using a rubber ball, caulking, nail polish or some other method to protect the iron or graphite.

are you doing this yourself or are you just curious how it’s done?


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## opmustard (Jan 15, 2021)

Hi,
I used to tumble my own and friends bottles, however I haven't tumbled any bottles for over ten years.
I have had some major surgeries and illnesses between the last time I tumbled and my memory isn't so good anymore. Could'nt remember what to do about protecting the iron when tumbling.
Remember using a rubber ball, but wasn't happy with the results. Think I remember using nail polish and think it did work. Someone else told me that they used varnish and then used some type of varnish remover.
I need to know what to use and how to then safely remove the protective material without removing the iron.
Thanks, 
opmustard


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 15, 2021)

"...method to protect the iron or graphite."  There is NO GRAPHITE.  "Graphite pontil" is a long de-bunked collector mis-understanding.  It's an iron pontil scar, as Opmustard correctly describes it.


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## opmustard (Jan 15, 2021)

I was told a long time ago the same thing that you mentioned in your post, but it seemed like everybody was saying graphic iron.
Thanks for the clarification.


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 15, 2021)

*    I can't address what "everybody" was saying, but the bare iron pontil scar was construed to be a "graphite" pontil scar because early collectors couldn't imagine that molten glass will adhere to bare iron.  There just HAD to be some medium (like crushed glass or "sand") to get the pontil rod to stick.  Because the residue on the bottle was black and fine grained, someone decided it must be graphite.  The faulty idea caught on with collectors.
       BTW, skipping the step of applying a separating medium (crushed glass or "sand") to the tip of the pontil rod led to calling the new bare iron technique an "improved pontil."*


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## opmustard (Jan 15, 2021)

Harry, thank you so much for your enlighting post about the iron pontils. Part of my bottle collecting are iron pontil sodas and mineral waters. Your post has given me a new light about pontils.
opmustard


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 15, 2021)

opmustard said:


> Hi,
> I used to tumble my own and friends bottles, however I haven't tumbled any bottles for over ten years.
> I have had some major surgeries and illnesses between the last time I tumbled and my memory isn't so good anymore. Could'nt remember what to do about protecting the iron when tumbling.
> Remember using a rubber ball, but wasn't happy with the results. Think I remember using nail polish and think it did work. Someone else told me that they used varnish and then used some type of varnish remover.
> ...


There are plenty of threads posted on this subject on this site. Do a search on tumbling iron pontils and a number of options are discussed. Good luck.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## UncleBruce (Jan 15, 2021)

Maybe graphite colored on some of them


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## hemihampton (Jan 15, 2021)

there does seem to be different colors, some blackish grayish & some kinda reddish?


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 15, 2021)

*I think the orange color seen sometimes on iron pontil scars is oxidation of the iron trace -- rust.*


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## sandchip (Jan 16, 2021)

That and the inevitable impurities in the iron used on the end of the pontil rod.  You see some odd colors once in a while.  I've never been a fan of the theory that some iron pontil marks were painted.  I can't see any commercial glasshouse taking the time to paint the bottom of a soda bottle and for what practical reason?  It's about as practical as "refired pontils".


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 16, 2021)

I always attributed the black and red color to oxidation of the iron. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 16, 2021)

sandchip said:


> That and the inevitable impurities in the iron used on the end of the pontil rod.  You see some odd colors once in a while.  I've never been a fan of the theory that some iron pontil marks were painted.  I can't see any commercial glasshouse taking the time to paint the bottom of a soda bottle and for what practical reason?  It's about as practical as "refired pontils".


I can't see getting all the paint out of the pontil when done. Gray iron colored paint maybe. Never tumbled a iron pontil for fear of messing it up. Not like I find them everyday.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## opmustard (Jan 17, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> There are plenty of threads posted on this subject on this site. Do a search on tumbling iron pontils and a number of options are discussed. Good luck.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


So far, I haven't been able to navigate the website very well. The reason is because I really stink with using computers. Will get better, but it will take time.
I just posted a picture of some of my misc. bottles, it took me over 2 hours to successfully get them posted (finally my wife helped me or I would still  be trying to post them.)
opmustards


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 17, 2021)

opmustard said:


> So far, I haven't been able to navigate the website very well. The reason is because I really stink with using computers. Will get better, but it will take time.
> I just posted a picture of some of my misc. bottles, it took me over 2 hours to successfully get them posted (finally my wife helped me or I would still  be trying to post them.)
> opmustards


Are you accessing the site through Google Chrome or the tapatalk app? I find the Google Chrome easier to use. I logged in using the tatatalk app and was totally lost. I removed tapatalk and only use Google Chrome to access from now on. 
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## opmustard (Jan 17, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> I can't see getting all the paint out of the pontil when done. Gray iron colored paint maybe. Never tumbled a iron pontil for fear of messing it up. Not like I find them everyday.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


What is a refired pontil? I have heard of them, but I don't really know what they are.
I have some nice iron pontiled sodas and would love to clean them up. However, I still don't know what to do about losing the iron on them. O/Ps are easier to tumble.
I don't know about the different colors you sometimes find on the iron pontils. I just accepted them as they were.
opmustard


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 17, 2021)

Re-fired pontil? Sounds impossible. Could you be talking fire polished?
ROBBYBOBBY64


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## opmustard (Jan 18, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Re-fired pontil? Sounds impossible. Could you be talking fire polished?
> ROBBYBOBBY64


It could be a fire polished pontil. Heard of both the refired and the fire polished pontil. What is a fire polished pontil?
All of my sodas and mineral water bottles are iron pontiled. I had a few O/P sodas, but sold them.
I had a Nash iron pontiled and wish I had never sold it.
I think I use chrome Google, not sure. I want to find another search engine, mainly becasue I don't care for Google.
opmustard


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Jan 18, 2021)

They fire polish the with a high temp torch melting the surface. This breaks the surface tension and smoothes it out. It is done during the manufacture of the bottle before the annealing process.
ROBBYBOBBY64.


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## opmustard (Jan 18, 2021)

I


ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> They fire polish the with a flame melting the surface. This breaks the surface tension and smoothes it out. It is done during the manufacture of the bottle before the annealing process.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.


 Think I've had that type of pontil on some Dr. Townsend's Sarsaparillas.
opmustard


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## sandchip (Jan 18, 2021)

I don't subscribe to either, refired or fire polished in regards to pontil scars.  To me they are one in the same, fallacious and totally unrealistic in the commercial production of utilitarian bottles.  Something as thin as a sheared lip can be fire polished if seen as necessary to eliminate a dangerous edge occurring during the wetting off of the blowpipe, but a ridiculous amount of time and heat would be needed to cause a pontil scar to melt back into the bottom of the bottle without badly distorting or downright destroying the bottle.  In other words, it wasn't done.  On higher end vessels such as tableware, if the pontil scar was considered objectionable, then it was ground and then polished.  The term "refired pontil" came about from folks either wanting to imagine that they had a pontiled bottle, or an unscrupulous seller trying to fool an unsuspecting buyer.  Refired pontils and sand pontils are two completely different things, and should not be confused.  The Townsend's usually have the latter, a legitimate method of empontiling.


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## opmustard (Jan 18, 2021)

sandchip said:


> I don't subscribe to either, refired or fire polished in regards to pontil scars.  To me they are one in the same, fallacious and totally unrealistic in the commercial production of utilitarian bottles.  Something as thin as a sheared lip can be fire polished if seen as necessary to eliminate a dangerous edge occurring during the wetting off of the blowpipe, but a ridiculous amount of time and heat would be needed to cause a pontil scar to melt back into the bottom of the bottle without badly distorting or downright destroying the bottle.  In other words, it wasn't done.  On higher end vessels such as tableware, if the pontil scar was considered objectionable, then it was ground and then polished.  The term "refired pontil" came about from folks either wanting to imagine that they had a pontiled bottle, or an unscrupulous seller trying to fool an unsuspecting buyer.  Refired pontils and sand pontils are two completely different things, and should not be confused.  The Townsend's usually have the latter, a legitimate method of empontiling.


I can understand the logic in what your saying about a glass company not putting more labor than they had to, a company was in business to make a profit. I do unerstand an iron or an open pontil and those make sense in the process  of making bottles back in those days.
Thank you for your post, it makes sense.
opmustard


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 18, 2021)

*Well stated, sandchip!  This refired idea is another collector myth like wooden molds and graphite pontil scars.*


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## opmustard (Jan 18, 2021)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Well stated, sandchip!  This refired idea is another collector myth like wooden molds and graphite pontil scars.*


Now your going to have educate me about wooden molds. I thought that they used wooden molds.
opmustard


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## sandchip (Jan 19, 2021)

opmustard said:


> Now your going to have educate me about wooden molds. I thought that they used wooden molds.
> opmustard



The closest thing as far as wood being used would be a block with a hemispherical cutout that was wet and used to give the rotated parison a uniform globular shape, normally used in freeblown objects.  Still see them used today.  Not sure what they're called though.


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## opmustard (Jan 19, 2021)

sandchip said:


> The closest thing as far as wood being used would be a block with a hemispherical cutout that was wet and used to give the rotated parison a uniform globular shape, normally used in freeblown objects.  Still see them used today.  Not sure what they're called though.



What material did they use for making bottle molds?
opmustard


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## sandchip (Jan 19, 2021)

opmustard said:


> What material did they use for making bottle molds?
> opmustard



Usually iron.


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## sandchip (Jan 19, 2021)

sandchip said:


> The closest thing as far as wood being used would be a block with a hemispherical cutout that was wet and used to give the rotated parison a uniform globular shape, normally used in freeblown objects.  Still see them used today.  Not sure what they're called though.



Turns out they're called simply, a "block".


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## EvansBottles (Jan 20, 2021)

There are blue iron pontils as well.


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## Willington Glass (Jan 20, 2021)

I apply a bead of Silicon to the area I want protected.  Usually stays on during the tumbling and peels off pretty easily.


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## dab46 (Jan 20, 2021)

yacorie said:


> Anyone tumbling bottles should know how to do it - but there are a bunch of options that include using a rubber ball, caulking, nail polish or some other method to protect the iron or graphite.
> 
> are you doing this yourself or are you just curious how it’s done?


just finished doing one, used rubber ball, worked great!


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## dab46 (Jan 20, 2021)

opmustard said:


> So far, I haven't been able to navigate the website very well. The reason is because I really stink with using computers. Will get better, but it will take time.
> I just posted a picture of some of my misc. bottles, it took me over 2 hours to successfully get them posted (finally my wife helped me or I would still  be trying to post them.)
> opmustards


I have all the same problems plus I can't spell or type.


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## Harry Pristis (Jan 20, 2021)

sandchip said:


> The closest thing as far as wood being used would be a block with a hemispherical cutout that was wet and used to give the rotated parison a uniform globular shape, normally used in freeblown objects.  Still see them used today.  Not sure what they're called though.



*The wet block allows steam to escape.  Imagine, though, a dip mold of wet wood.  The molten parison would trap steam in the closed cylinder -- an analog to a steam engine piston.  Explosive.  That energetic environment would not be suitable for forming a bottle out of a parison.

Prior to the development of brass and iron molds, I suggest that bottle molds were made of clay -- dry, perhaps fired clay -- sometimes just a hole in a clay floor (reported for big vessels).  Even clay molds would have a short life, and that's why it took the development of metal molds to make glass bottles commercially important in the later 1700s.

There has been lots of speculation by modern collectors about molds.  When this speculation include wood dip molds or any sort of closed mold of wood, I think the speculation is misguided. *


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## K6TIM (Jan 20, 2021)

opmustard said:


> Hi,
> I was wondering what is the best way to preserve the iron on a pontiled soda while tumbling?
> Any info would help.
> Thank you,
> opmustard


The iron pontil mark cannot be cleaned.The reason is the dirty pontil rod and that iron go into the glass.Leave mark alone as well as the patina to keep the value of the bottle alone.You can polish the bottle,but the age old patina will remain!
Tim Durkin


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## nhpharm (Jan 20, 2021)

I read with interest some of the comments on "painted" iron pontils.  My understanding is that, particularly in the west, some early bottlers painted the bottom of their bottles to be able to quickly sort theirs from others when the bottles were returned.  I believe that some of them even documented this in trademark applications in California.


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## opmustard (Jan 20, 2021)

Willington Glass said:


> I apply a bead of Silicon to the area I want protected.  Usually stays on during the tumbling and peels off pretty easily.


If I understand your post correctly is that your saying a bead of silicon works well, but sometimes it doesn't?
opmustard


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## opmustard (Jan 20, 2021)

dab46 said:


> just finished doing one, used rubber ball, worked great!


I have used a rubber ball as a pontil protector and had very mixed results. 
Please, describe in more detail how you used the rubber ball (size, position, stopple size, etc.
Thank you,
opmustards


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