# I know it's not old, but what is it?



## AMChandler (Aug 30, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52705130@N02/7896675980

 Here is a link to the picture, hope it works. I found this bottle in the woods. I know it's not old, I think there's a 73 on the bottom - maybe the year? But I'm wondering what this seal/mark is. I can't find it anywhere. Anyone know? Hope you can see it well enough. It actually came out clearer in the picture then what I can see in person. 
 Thanks in advance!


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## epackage (Aug 30, 2012)

Stubby beer bottle and 73 sounds about right on the date, maybe Lowenbrau...


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## epackage (Aug 30, 2012)

.


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## AMChandler (Aug 31, 2012)

Thanks for adding it as part of post. I'm on an iPhone and haven't figured that out yet.  Thanks for your thoughts!


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

Pretty remarkable.  Just last week I found the exact same bottle in the woods while searching one of my favorite farm dump sites.  It has the exact same logo (which I'll comment on), is a stubby probably 12 oz. bottle, and has the following markings on the bottom (where you want to look for more clues); bottle maker is indicated by KPP inside an oval, lets say at 12:00, the number 72 at 3:00, and the number 18 at 9:00.  From my information, the KPP logo belongs to Kerr Glass Manufacturing Corporation.  The number 18 is probably associated with KPP in some way (e.g. plant number), and the number 72 is probably the year.

 I don't think the logo is Lowenbrau (take a look at their logo and is just doesn't match).  But it is a play on the coat of arms of Bavaria; that contains 2 "standing Bavarian lions" facing each other and separated by a "crest" that has the letters CB inside, themselves separated by what looks like a barley stalk.  Finally, there's a crown above the crest.  I suspect the letters CB has something to do with the name of the beer, possibly the initials?

 I found several beer makers with similar modified Bavaria coat of arms, but none fit exactly (I posted one here and in following posts).  That being said, the beer could be of German/Bavarian origin, or some US makers (from Wisconsin?) that believe their beer is of that heritage.  Canadian Ace Beer has an "interesting" story line that's worth reading (just Goggle the name and you'll get plenty of hits).  Originally founded in 1893 as the Manhattan Brewing Co., it was "purchased" in 1919 by known mobster Johnny Torrio (just before prohibition hit, dah!).  I can just hear the backroom chatter, "Yo, Johnny, I think wezz should get into this beer business so the G men can't touch us.  Yuz know what I mean?"  Maybe that sounds too much like south Philly.  Shortly thereafter, Al Capone and his buddies got involved, changed the name of the company a few times, until they settled on Canadian Ace Beer in 1947.  I thought because of the "CB" in the name, this brand could be a front runner.  However, they closed the doors by 1968.  And if your 1973 and my 1972 dating guesses are correct, the timing is wrong.  Plus, I couldn't find a version of the Canadian Ace Beer logo that had CB in the crest.  Bottom line, brewers of this stubby little bottle with the Bavarian-like coat of arms remains a mystery!


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

Another brewer.


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

And yet one more.


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

Post Note: The proper name for the 2 standing lions facing each other in the bottle logo is "combatant lions".  And the Bavarians don't hold the patent on this image.  So I have to be careful in assuming the logo on the bottle suggests Bavarian roots, in one way or another.  Cheers.


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

AMChandler, if you don't mind my asking, what state are you from?  I'm in North Carolina.  I just want to see if our finding the same bottle is a regional thing, or more national.  Could help.  This logo has me totally stumped!


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## AMChandler (Aug 31, 2012)

Shoveler I am in Missouri. 

 Mine has the circle I mark.


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

Circle I is Owens-Illinois Glass Company, located in Perrysburg, Ohio. Approximately 25 glass manufacturing locations in the US and Canada.  Finding a bottle from Owens-Illinois is not uncommon, more so than Kerr Glass Manufacturing Corporation, who only operated 7 glass plants by 1975 (I think mostly East coast).  So it's probably not surprising that you would get a bottle from Owens-Illinois (Ohio based) and I would get a bottle from Kerr Glass Manufacturing Corporation (East coast based).  Whatever beer brand we're searching for, they were large enough to purchase bottles from 2 different glass companies, and were probably well distributed across the US.  I hope it's not some Budweiser collectors edition or something boring like that!    But my bet would be that it is a US based company.


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## AMChandler (Aug 31, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  shoveler
> I hope it's not some Budweiser collectors edition or something boring like that!


 
 True! And with me being in the STL area, I find a lot of A-B products!


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## shoveler (Aug 31, 2012)

Wanted to show you a picture from a German wheat beer (Erdinger) that features a drawing of a wheat grain head in the circled logo at the top.  The same image that's between the C and the B in the crest of our bottle.  Doesn't necessarily mean ours is a wheat beer.  The difference between a wheat grain head and that of barley is insignificant; especially in a small caricature for a beer bottle.  But it does suggest some effort to have a European flair.


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## surfaceone (Sep 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  shoveler
> 
> Post Note: The proper name for the 2 standing lions facing each other in the bottle logo is "combatant lions".  And the Bavarians don't hold the patent on this image.  So I have to be careful in assuming the logo on the bottle suggests Bavarian roots, in one way or another.  Cheers.


 
 Cheers shoveler,

 I think you'll find that the proper name for that lion attitude is "Rampant."




From.

 In my opinion, you're shoveling a lot of speculation to the discussion that is not supported. I don't see Erdinger, or other different modern brewery crests as being germane. Maybe the right church, wrong pew, but certainly not John Torrio's. [8D]




Bavarian Coat of Arms.




Regardant.

 I think sometimes it depends on who is picturing the crest, and what heraldic messages they are projecting.



> The same image that's between the C and the B in the crest of our bottle. Doesn't necessarily mean ours is a wheat beer. The difference between a wheat grain head and that of barley is insignificant; especially in a small caricature for a beer bottle.


 
 I cannot tell from Annette's photo, what tiny image, or symbol resides within the shield, nor where the "C" or "B" that you speak of might be. Perhaps better photos might tell us more.

 I can assure you that wheat, barley, and hops all have separate and divergent meanings in heraldry, and in brewing.




From.



From.



From.

 Bavaria is not far from Bulgaria, right? [8D]




Bulgarian National Bank.

 A spot of heraldic humor:




From.


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## shoveler (Sep 1, 2012)

There's always a party crasher!  []  But seriously, all the speculation was merely brainstorming.  [8|]  An effort to get a discussion going that, in my experience, can sometimes lead to the correct answer.  But point well taken, and thanks for chipping in.

 Rampant lions indeed, but when 2 rampant lions are facing each other, referring to them as "combatant" specifies their posture relative to one another (see attachment).  Not individually, so you are correct on that issue.  So I think we're on the same page.  But thanks again for clarifying that issue.

 As for the grain head and CB lettering, trust me, I have magnification tools that allow me to see things up close and personal.  There is no doubt the crest has the head of some small grain (wheat, barley, hops, take your pick) in the middle of the letters C and B.  I'll work on getting a close-up picture on a follow-up response.

 Thanks for your contributions to the discussion.


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## surfaceone (Sep 1, 2012)

> Rampant lions indeed, but when 2 rampant lions are facing each other, referring to them as "combatant" specifies their posture relative to one another (see attachment). Not individually, so you are correct on that issue. So I think we're on the same page. But thanks again for clarifying that issue.


 





 shoveler,

 We are learning a bit about heraldry, for whatever that is worth. [8D] 

 Heraldry is some confusing stuff. I'll agree that the lions combatant that you have pictured are indeed "combatant," but they are not depicted as such on Annette's coat of arms, nor, I'm assuming, on your un-pictured example.

 On Annette's coat of arms, the lions rampant are supporters of the escutcheon or shield that contains whatever unmagnified symbol. It's kinda difficult to be "combatant" while holding that heavy shield, don'tcha think?

  Late 20th Century "heraldry" on beer bottles and cans seems to have stylistically degenerated to the realm of stock images, i.e. flatfooted lions, nondescript crowns, and initialed escutcheons.

 Are you seeing the "C" and "B" on the banner? I cannot tell if they are letters or components of the banner, no matter how large I make Annette's photo.


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## AMChandler (Sep 1, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52705130@N02/7907440652

 Hopefully better picture of the seal. Thanks for looking and thanks for the discussion. 
 Sorry cant get picture as part of the post.  I even tried to macro it with my real camera, it doesn't photograph well.


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## surfaceone (Sep 1, 2012)

Hey Annette,

 Thanks for the additional photo. I can see that "C-B" now.

 Don't thinks it's a Coors, nor a Carling, either. Hopefully someone will recognize it now.


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## hemihampton (Sep 2, 2012)

Here you go, I got your Mystery solved. LEON.


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## epackage (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks Leon, I didn't take the time to check Carling, DOPEY ME!!


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## hemihampton (Sep 2, 2012)

I got about 30 different Carling Black Label beer cans from cones to flats to Aluminum pull tabs from around 1973 like the one pictured. Only took me a minute to check. Glad I could help. LEON.


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## surfaceone (Sep 2, 2012)

*Way to go, Leon!*

 And I did a fair amount of looking at Carling.  They must not have used that Coat of Arms for a long period.















Some Amusing UK Carling Ads...


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## AMChandler (Sep 2, 2012)

That certainly looks like it! Thanks!


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## shoveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Outstanding Hemi!  You deserve, well, a nice cold can (or bottle) or Black Label beer!

 And I stand corrected SurfaceOne............rampant regardant posture it is.  I didn't notice until just last night that the heads were positioned backwards, not forward.  Considering all the heraldy education I had in the States, I should have known there might be a difference worth discerning!  []  Old Black Label.  I seem to recall my old man having a case of this stuff in his basement some 40 yrs ago.  I wonder if it really is Full Flavored.  But of course....it comes from the House of Carling after all!  Glad this one is over.  Well done all around.  Cheers.


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## shoveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Wait just a rampant lions minute Hemi.  And I said rampant, not regardant.  It only took you "a minute" to solve this puzzle!  I'm taking back my cold bottle of Black Label.  []  OK, I'm jealous I didn't get there first.  But in reality, I'm glad you did come to the rescue as this one was getting old (as I already eluded to).

 Question Hemi.  Seeing how you have 30 cans or so laying around, have you ever seen a bottle?  Is there at least some novelty in all this!


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## shoveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Never mind Hemi.  Decided to invest yet a few more minutes and found plenty of stubby bottles.  But not many have the embossed coat of arms.  We could be rich AMC!


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## shoveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Hey......think I just found a picture of my old man riding shot gun in an old Black Label delivery wagon.  Maybe that's where he got all those cases of beer I saw in the basement as a kid.  Hmmmmmm


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## hemihampton (Sep 2, 2012)

I got a few long neck Black Label bottles from the late 60's with paper labels & they do not have the 2 Lions design on them. Neither do any of my 1960's or older cans. Must of been a 70's thing. I don't really collect 70's cans or bottles, not old enough for me. I got this same can in a Straight steel can also besides Aluminum. LEON.


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## hemihampton (Sep 2, 2012)

Here's another variation of the Black Label can on right. On this one 2 lions partly obscured by Black Labels Label.  Can on left is the back of can. LEON.


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## shoveler (Sep 2, 2012)

Are you kidding me?!  An awesome collection you have there Hemi.  Is here room for a lounge chair to sit back an ponder your achievement; while enjoying a cold one I hope.  I want you on my team if there's such a thing as Trivial Pursuit: Beer Cans [].  It's pretty cool (and frustrating at times) when brewers or distillers make minor changes to their logo, then go back to the original.  I was looking at different BL stubby bottles and it seems it depends on the brewer.  Here's an interesting article on the history of BL, one of many if you Google.  www.fohbc.org/PDF_Files/Munsey_CarlingBeer.pdf


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## hemihampton (Sep 2, 2012)

No Lounge Chair but I do have a Couch & a Chair to far right. But still can't sit on them, to much Breweriana in the way. Not sure if you can see them under all that stuff? LEON.


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