# COCA COLA / 1915 PROTOTYPE / EARL R DEAN / RAY A GRAHAM



## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

I recently discovered something that I thought was most interesting and wanted to share. It involves a forum thread most of us should recall that was started by member sodapops on August 19, 2011 and was titled "Schmidt Coke Museum Auction." As you may recall, the thread eventually developed into a discussion involving the auction/sale of one of the two original Coca Cola contour prototype bottles and it's sketch. In December of 2011 the bottle sold for $240,000 and the sketch for $228,000. (See link below).

 The Julien's auction of the contour bottle was brought to our attention by Jeff Dean, who is the grandson of Earl R Dean, who was the man who designed the contour bottle in 1915. Jeff's first post is on Page 1 ~ Post # 8.

 Long story short ...

 On December 22, 2012, Page 9 ~ Post #168 of the thread, Jeff Dean shared another bottle with us that he said was one of the "other" entries in the Coca Cola bottle design contest that was apparently stolen from one of the display tables in 1915. Jeff goes on to tell us that he was contacted by someone who claimed to possess that particular bottle and that it might come up for sale eventually. 

 Cut to the chase ... 

 Jeff stated there was very little known about that "other" bottle. However, based on my recent discovery, it appears that a Mr. Ray Graham, of Graham Bottling, patented that "other" bottle on November 21, 1916. 

 Reminder: The Coca Cola design contest was held in 1915.

 In conclusion I wonder ...

 1.  If any of the 1916 R. A. Graham bottles were ever produced?

 2.  If they were produced, what brand names are embossed on them?

 3.  If produced and examples still exist, what they might be worth today?

 I am dedicating this thread to Jeff Dean and will be contacting him shortly to share this information with him. 

 If you have an example of the bottle in question, please share it with us.

 Thanks a lot.

 Sodapopbob

 ~ * ~ 

 Forum Thread ~ Schmidt Coke Museum Auction ~ Started August 19, 2011

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-439778/mpage-1/key-earl%2Cdean/tm.htm


 From Wikipedia:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham-Paige

 Graham Brothers: 
 "After successful involvement in a glass manufacturing company ..."

 "Ray A. Graham (May 28, 1887â€“August 13, 1932) ... "

 From Makers Marks / Graham Glass:

 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks-2/

 Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana; Loogootee, Indiana; and Okmulgee, Oklahoma (1907-1929). Another plant location also was operated at Chekotah, Oklahoma until 1923. Graham owned by Owens Bottle Company after 1916, plants became part of Owens-Illinois in 1929.

 Here's the patent I recently discovered. Notice the name "R.A. Graham"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

And here's the "other" bottle that Jeff Dean brought to our attention ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

Patent text and illustration of the 1916 R. A. Graham bottle ...

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD49924?pg=PA1&dq=R+A+Graham+Bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nstqUeWYMITo8QSI9oH4Cg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=R%20A%20Graham%20Bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

More about Ray A Graham ...

 http://www.cruise-in.com/resource/cisbk08.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

Plus ...

 Recommended reading regarding the history of the Earl R Dean Coca Cola prototype bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

The original 1915 Coca Cola prototype bottle ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

And the original 1915 sketch ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

Scroll to pages 49 and 50 for information and pictures of examples of Graham Glass bottle marks as they appear on early Coca Cola bottles. The marks on the R. A. Graham bottles, if they were ever produced, might be similar ...

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

I heard from Jeff Dean who provided me with the following link and reminded me that the Coca Cola bottle contest was held in 1916 and not 1915. He also said that as far as he knows the R. A. Graham bottle was never produced beyond the patent stage and that Graham's reason for patenting it in the first place was with the hope it would be chosen at the 1916 bottler's convention. But, of course, we know the Graham bottle lost out and the Dean bottle won. 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola#Contour_bottle_design

 "During the 1916 bottler's convention, Dean's contour bottle was chosen over other entries and was on the market the same year."

 The contour bottle was designed by Dean in June of 1915 and patented in November of 1915. I'm not sure which month in 1916 the bottler's convention was held, but it should be easy enough to find.


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## epackage (Apr 14, 2013)

Bob I may have missed it previously but has any mention been made regarding the similar shapes, was there some sort of collusion during the design period?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Bob I may have missed it previously but has any mention been madeÂ regarding the similar shapes, was there some sort of collusion during the design period?


 
 Jim ~

 I wondered the same thing because of the "somewhat similar" design of the two bottles. As far as I know there were no specific guidelines other than contents size and Coca Cola's request for a bottle "that could be recognized in the dark." I don't believe there was any cheating / copy-cating / or "collusion" going on. Nor do I believe that anyone knows what any of the other entries look like or how many there were.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

P.S.

 I will have to re-read the Dean book and see if I can find some answers there.


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## epackage (Apr 14, 2013)

It's odd that all of a sudden two very similar, previously unused/unknown bottle styles would be produced for the same soda, at least to me. I'm guessing something funny may have happened, it was a different age and a more trusting time so it wouldn't shock me if there were shenanigans..


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

Its the fluted columns and the bulge in the center that appear similar. If there were any shenanigans going on, I'd say it was someone in the Graham camp who was up to no good and not someone connected with Dean. That is, unless there was a spy in the Dean camp who "leaked" some design information to Graham. ???

 Bob


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## epackage (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm not trying to place any blame on anyone[] just hoping that some light can be shed on why the bottles have such similar forms. Hopefully you'll be able to enlighten me in the near future...[]


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## cyberdigger (Apr 14, 2013)

Weren't they trying to make a bottle that looked like a cocoa bean?


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## celerycola (Apr 14, 2013)

What I find amusing is that, in the case of the Coca-Cola adopting a design patent "hobbleskirt" bottle, Coca-Cola was the imitator. 

 One of the biggest imitators of Coca-Cola was Gay-Ola, based in Memphis TN. Gay-Ola was introduced in 1910 and a script logo was used on various types of straightside bottles. Over ten years time, Coca-Cola filed more lawsuits against Gay-Ola than any other brand. At one point, in 1913, Gay-Ola thought to distinguish their product from Coca-Cola by using a distinguishable, standard bottle for their franchises across the nation. The "Four-Ring" Gay-Ola bottle was design patented in 1914 and the courts determined that the bottle made Gay-Ola distinct and that lawsuit by Coca-Cola was thrown out.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> I'm not trying to place any blame on anyone[]Â just hoping that some light can be shed on why the bottles have such similar forms. Hopefully you'll be able to enlighten me in the near future...[]


 

 Jim ~

 I just got down my "signed" hardcover copy of Norman Dean's book that I acquired through Jeff Dean and plan to research it this coming week. I'll let you know if I find anything of interest related to your queries. 

 By the way, did you know that Earl R Dean designed "hundreds" of bottles for Root Glass and that two of them were ...

 1.  The embossed Nu Grape bottle.
 2.  The embossed Squeeze bottle.

 I would scan and post images of the original design sketches from the book but promised Jeff I wouldn't so as to encourage others to purchase the book for themselves and read "the rest of the story."

 Bob


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## epackage (Apr 14, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: cyberdigger
> 
> Weren't they trying to make a bottle that looked like a cocoa bean?


 This states Dean drew up a Cocoa Pod design, but no mention of Graham so I wonder how they came to use a similar design...

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

This is not a scan from the Dean book but rather from the Encyclopedia Britannica where Dean got the idea for his design ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

I just received another email from Jeff Dean and he said the owner of the Graham bottle has received offers ...

 "everywhere from $10,000 up to middle six figures."

 And that he has declined all of them and intends to put the bottle up for auction "in the fall" of this year.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 14, 2013)

P.S. / Correction ...

 The guy said he's going to auction the bottle in the fall, but only "if he still has it at that time." Apparently he's taking offers now and will only auction it if it doesn't sell first. If interested in making an offer of say, $200,000+, please let me know and I will let Jeff Dean know. That is unless Jeff comes on board himself as he has a link to this thread and is following it. 

 Bob


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## epackage (Apr 15, 2013)

If it had Paterson embossed on the bottom I might, but I have that dreaded Fundsrlow disease....


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

Link is to portions of the Dean book online which include several images and the following ...

 1.  Coca Cola bottlers convention January of 1916
 2.  11 contenders

 http://books.google.com/books?id=dGTbe_4NXkAC&pg=RA1-PT4&dq=1916+coca+cola+bottlers+convention&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SPxrUamsGsfJqQH6z4GoBA&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBg

 I wonder what became of the "other" entries and if any of them will ever surface?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

The following list is from Bill Porter's book and includes "some" of the glass manufacturers who at one time produced Coca Cola bottles. I have to believe that most of them had entries at the 1916 convention. I plan to research the names and see if I can find bottle patents issued by any of them in 1915 and 1916 that might have been contenders at the convention.

 1.  Laurens Glass Works
 2.  Root Glass Co. (The Dean Prototype / Winner)
 3.  Graham Glass Co. (Under Discussion)
 4.  Chattanooga Glass
 5.  Southern Glass
 6.  Reed Glass

 Bill states "there were many other small glass companies," [ that produced Coca Cola bottles] but he does not list all of them. If the count is close to accurate with the eleven (11) contenders, I imagine they would include some of the major glass makers who are not listed here.

 Other possible contenders might be found here ... (But would need to have been in business in 1915)

 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/#ABCDEF

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

I just realized that the R. A. Graham bottle was patented "after" the convention. Which suggest that "other" contending bottles could easily have been patented after the convention as well.

 On this page and the one that follows are two bottles patented on October 3rd by a R. C. Graham. Not doubt the R. C. stands for Robert C. Graham who was Ray's brother and one of the co-owners of the Graham Glass Company. But whether or not either of the two R. C. Graham bottles were entries at the Coca Cola convention, I do not know.

 Notice that the R. C. Graham patents have the same attorney and wittnesses as the Ray A Graham patent ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

And the second patent ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

And the R. A. Graham patent (again) so as to show all three together ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

Hmmm ...

 It appears that Robert C Graham was also the designer (patent owner) of the familiar "star fruit flavor" bottle ... 1923

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD63365?pg=PA1&dq=r.+c.+graham+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QRFsUdyjLpCOrQHkzIEg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=r.%20c.%20graham%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

Side Note:

 I'm not sure when the Graham Glass Company started producing the 1915 patent contour bottle, but I bet it bugged them to no end to have to produce a bottle that was designed by a Root Glass employee. I can just hear the gossip around the Graham Glass water cooler ...

 "It should have been our bottle that won the contest. That Root bottle looks like a piece of ... "

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

P.S. ~

 This link provided by epackage/Jim earlier explains the Graham Glass production of the contour bottle along with the codes and dates ... with 1916 being the earliest. 

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf


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## zecritr (Apr 15, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Side Note:
> 
> ...


 

 Well if that was going on,that maybe might mean the other was produced just for some spite  lol (hopefully)


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## RED Matthews (Apr 15, 2013)

Wow!   This is quite a study of bottle design development.  These projects could mean a lot if one is into the details.  
 We all need to and do appreciate these efforts.  Thank you.   RED Matthews


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## zecritr (Apr 15, 2013)

Like Red said,thanks and I love it


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for the comments an participation. 

 On post #25 I listed six (6) glass makers who might have been at the 1916 convention and possibly had entries in the bottle contest. I'm adding two more manufacturers to the list, which are ...

 1.  American Glass Works ~ Richmond, Virginia
 2.  Lynchburg Glass Works ~ Lynchburg, Virginia

 I came across this 1916 convention name tag that I thought was pretty cool. As far as I know it is an example of the tags worn by all of the attendees ...

  http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9686167


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 16, 2013)

I was curious who the name *Cowley* was on the 1916 convention pin and found the following ... 

 (But why some of the text is in Spanish/Italian, I'm not sure).

 http://search.ancestry.it/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=mediaphotopublic&rank=1&sbo=t&gsbco=Italia&gsln=Cola&gss=angs-d&gl=&gst=&hc=20&fh=260&fsk=BEFmZmYIgAAERQDOLXw-61-&pgoff=11

 O.P. Butler and Mr.Cowley at Coca Cola bottling plant.

 Guntersville, Alabama 1911

 "OP"Oscar Peter Butler (1883-1943) 

 The picture below is from the above link as is the text. I'm not exactly sure who either of these gentlemen were but obviously connected with the Guntersville, Alabama Coca Cola Bottling Company in some manner, possibly managers.

 I researched both names and could not find anything regarding Oscar Butler, but I did find a *David M Cowley* from a 1910 U.S. census that stated he lived in Guntersville, Alabama at the time and was 31 years old in 1910.


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## celerycola (Apr 16, 2013)

You searched the Italian website for ancestry.com. Here's the link to the US site in English:

 http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=mediaphotopublic&rank=1&sbo=t&gsbco=Italia&gsln=Cola&gss=angs-d&gl=&gst=&hc=20&fh=260&fsk=BEFmZmYIgAAERQDOLXw-61-&pgoff=11

 According to the Alabama Coca-Cola Bottlers book O. P. Butler was manager of the Coca-Cola plant at Guntersville.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I was curious who the name *Cowley* was on the 1916 convention pin and found the following ...
> 
> ...





> http://search.ancestry.it/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=mediaphotopublic&rank=1&sbo=t&gsbco=Italia&gsln=Cola&gss=angs-d&gl=&gst=&hc=20&fh=260&fsk=BEFmZmYIgAAERQDOLXw-61-&pgoff=11


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 17, 2013)

celery ~

 Thanks for the website correction and for confirming that O. P. Butler was the manager of the Guntersville Coca Cola bottling plant. I thought it was odd that the picture referred to the other man simply as *Mr.* Cowley as if everyone would automatically know who he was. If Butler was the manager, I wonder if Cowley was the owner of the bottling plant?

 Just for the record, I found the following and am pretty sure it pertains to the Mr. Cowley in question ...

 http://sallenbach.net/getperson.php?personID=I562&tree=dee

 David Morgan Cowley Jr.
 Born: October 9, 1878
 Died: July 27, 1919

 Which means he would have been 37 years old during the January 1916 Coca Cola convention held in Atlanta, Georgia. Notice he had several children born in Guntersville, Alabama.

 Even though I got side-tracked with Mr. Cowley, my main focus is still on the hope of determining which glass manufactures had bottle entries in the Coca Cola contest held at the 1916 convention. As it stands now we know that Root Glass and Graham Glass had entries, but still searching for the other nine or so that are currently eluding me. 

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 17, 2013)

However ...

 Even though we currently don't know who the other nine entries were, we do know who the seven judges were who voted at the 1916 convention and selected the Dean/Root bottle as the winner. Perhaps by researching the names something might be found to clue us in regarding the other nine glass manufacturers. The following is from the Norman L Dean book ...

 "Based on research done by former Coke archivist Wilbur Kurtz Jr. in 1957, Kurtz concluded that the committee of seven - all Coca Cola bottlers - were:"

 1. Charles Rainwater ~ Advisory Board Chairman ~ Atlanta, Georgia
 2. Arthur Montgomery ~ Atlanta, Georgia
 3. Crawford Johnson Sr. ~ Birmingham, Alabama
 4. J.K. Crosswell ~ Sumter, South Carolina
 5. W. A. Bellinggrath ~ Montgomery, Alabama
 6. Columous Roberts ~ Columbus, Georgia
 7. John Kinner ~ Nashville, Tennessee


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 17, 2013)

P.S. ~

 One of the seven judges/committee members did not vote and eliminated himself because prior to the voting he saw the Dean bottle sticking out of someone's coat pocket. Who can tell us which member did not vote and who's pocket the Dean bottle was in?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 17, 2013)

P.S. ~ P.S.

 Another way of determining who the other nine entries were might be found by knowing who the head honchos were with various glass manufacturers, such as the ...

 1. Owners
 2. Presidents
 3. Vice Presidents
 4. Secretaries 
 5. Etc.

 ... and see if any (1915-1916-1917) bottle pattents were filed under their names?


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## Andrewt (Apr 17, 2013)

Bob, Excellent thread, Thank you!!    -Andy


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## celerycola (Apr 17, 2013)

Some of the Design Patents from the period I've studied were filed by Patent Attorneys.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~ P.S.
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 17, 2013)

Andrewt ~

 You're welcome and thank you, too. Mucho appreciated.

 celery ~

 Ditto. That info will help a lot ... providing I can find some names of who-was-who in 1916, which is turning out not to be so easily done, but I'm still looking.

 This should help as well and hopefully lead to more names and more bottle entries / patents ...



 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/glass-manufacturers-marks-on-coke-bottles/

 The list below is certainly not complete, and I hope to eventually add more information as time allows. This includes makers of Coke bottles covering a wide time period, including the earlier â€œstraight-sidesâ€ and the later â€œhobbleskirtâ€ classic shaped bottle.

 A.B.CO. â€¦ American Bottle Company, Chicago, Illinois.

 A.G.Wâ€¦ American Glass Works.

 Anchor logo entertwined with a capital â€œHâ€... Anchor Hocking Corporation, Lancaster, Ohio.

 C inside a circleâ€¦ Chattanooga Glass Company, Chattanooga, Tennessee. Chattanooga was a HEAVY producer of Coca-Cola bottles. 

 Diamond & O (oval) entertwined with an I in center, looks something like an eye or the planet Saturnâ€¦ Owens-Illinois Glass Company, head office Toledo, OH. (See a number of pics showing this frequently encountered mark at that page). This firm probably made more Coke bottles than any other glass manufacturer, at least during the 1940s and 1950s. Chattanooga would possibly be second place in total production.

 D.O.Câ€¦ D.O.Cunningham, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

 Duraglasâ€¦ Owens-Illinois Glass Company.

 EG (along heel, with numbers)â€¦ Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana.

 F within a hexagonâ€¦ Fairmount Glass Company, Fairmount & Indianapolis, Indiana.

 FV (connected, as shown)â€¦ FÃ¡brica de Envases de Vidrio S.A. De C.V, Mexicali, Mexico. This is seen on some of the â€œMexican Cokeâ€ bottles imported into the United States. Although this company began in 1987, Iâ€™m not sure if the mark has been in actual use that entire time. I have a Coke bottle with the mark which is date coded for the year 2006.

 G23 (or similar letter/number, lightly embossed along the lower heel)â€¦â€¦â€¦.. Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana. (Not to be confused with the â€œG-numberâ€ [bottle style/design codes] seen on the base of many Owens-Illinois soda bottles).

 GRAHAMâ€¦ Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana.

 H entertwined with (superimposed over) an â€œAnchorâ€ emblemâ€¦ Anchor-Hocking Corporation, Lancaster, Ohio.

 I inside an O (circle or oval)â€¦ Owens-Illinois Glass Company.

 I.S.G.COâ€¦ Inter-State Glass Company, Kansas City, Missouri.

 Lbg â€¦ Lynchburg Glass Works, Lynchburg, Virginia.

 L G W â€¦ Laurens Glass Works, Laurens, South Carolina.

 R within a triangleâ€¦ Reed Glass Company, Rochester, New York.

 ROOTâ€¦ Root Glass Company, Terre Haute, Indiana. Root was the first company to produce the classic â€œhobbleskirt designâ€ glass Coca-Cola bottle.

 S within a starâ€¦ Southern Glass Company, Los Angeles, California.

 V, actually a highly stylized â€˜Vâ€™ logo, which typically looks like a group of 3 small triangularly-shaped raised â€œspotsâ€
 or â€œbumpsâ€œâ€¦ Vitro Corporation, Monterrey, Mexico. This mark is seen on huge numbers of recent bottles imported into the United States, including soda bottles as well as many other types of glass containers.


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## celerycola (Apr 17, 2013)

Obear-Nestor was making straightside Coke bottles at the time. I read in a pre 1910 magazine that there were four hundred glass plants making bottles in the US. By 1915 that number had probably increased.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 18, 2013)

So many questions ~ So few answers ...

 Because we know Chattanooga Glass Company of Tennessee was a huge producer of Coca Cola bottles, I have to believe they were one of the contenders who had an entry at the 1916 convention. I also have to believe that Chattanooga Glass designed/patented numerous bottles over the years. And yet, even with this said, I can only find one bottle related to them, which is the one pictured below and invented/designed by a James F. Harrison that was filed on May 18, 1927 and patented on August 23, 1927. 

 Question:  If in fact the bottle pictured below was an entry at the 1916 Coca Cola convention, is it possible that Chattanooga Glass would wait a full ten years before patenting it?

 Answer:  I don't know but it doesn't seem likely, although I suppose its possible.

 (If anyone knows of or finds another bottle designed/patented in relation to Chattanooga Glass, please share it with us).

 Thanks

 Bob

 Patent Text Link: Note it refers to James F. Harrison as the "Assignor" 

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD73288?pg=PA2&dq=James+F+Harrison&hl=en&sa=X&ei=agBwUYP5Esn0rAHGmIGwCA&ved=0CDUQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=James%20F%20Harrison&f=false

 Does this look like a bottle that could be "recognized in the dark?"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 18, 2013)

For additional research ...

*THE DESIGNERS*

 Bottle design became a competition between glasshouses. The bottle designers of the times had highly successful careers some of which spanned decades. Their names and faces are unfamiliar but their work survives them. Among the more prominent of the 1920s were:

 Paul A. Ginter and Gayle D. Stewart and who were working for the American Bottle Company (1905-1929) which eventually became Owens Bottle Company and eventually Owens-Illinois.. 

 Robert C. Graham and Frank R. Miller of the Graham Glass Company of Evansville, Indiana. Robert's Father had started the glass company and it operated from 1913-1930. After 1916 it was a subsidiary of the Owens Bottle Company, Toledo;

 Fredrick W. Schwenck of Cincinnati, Ohio;

 Thomas C. Johnson of Atlanta, Georgia;

 George N. Mas of Lynchburg, Virginia;

 Claud A. Sears of Columbus, Georgia was assignor to the Chero-cola Company.

 Vess Jones of New York City.

 Chapman J. Root of Terra Haute, Indiana of the Root Glass started two factories, one for beverage bottles and the second one a year later in 1902 for jars. Root sold the jar plant to the Ball Brothers in 1909 and the beverage plant to Owens-Illinois in 1932. It was at the Root plant that the original design for the Coca Cola bottle was proposed by Alex Samuelson, *[ Earl R. Dean]* a plant foreman.. By the 1920s, Root was operating three continuous tanks.( Some information taken from Bottle Makers and Their Marks - Julian Harrison Toulouse, 1971.)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 18, 2013)

P.S. ~

 I searched all of the designers in my last post and found tons of bottles in their names, but the earliest one I could find was patented in *1923*. Although the James F. Harrison / Chattanooga bottle "might" be a possible candidate, I am primarily interested and researching bottles from 1915 to about 1917.

 Bob


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## celerycola (Apr 18, 2013)

I have several variants of this bottle in emerald green and clear glass embossed Lake's Celery from Jackson, MS. There is an aqua one from East TN with a town name but no bottler. 


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> So many questions ~ So few answers ...
> 
> ...


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## celerycola (Apr 18, 2013)

Soda bottle design patents are typically pictured in issues of American Bottler, Southern Carbonator & Bottler, and the National Bottler's Gazette. The Coca-Cola Bottler magazine had no news on the deliberation process, just a final announcement of the chosen design.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> ...


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## cokebottle1916 (Apr 28, 2013)

Good Morning everyone.......I have the Bottle you are talking about. If you want to look at pictures let me know..... It is made by Graham Evansville In. And so for it is the only one to make it out of the Coca-Cola Contest. E-mail me for pictures  cokebottle1916@gmail.com        Tks


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 28, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> Good Morning everyone.......I have the Bottle you are talking about. If you want to look at pictures let me know..... It is made by Graham Evansville In. And so for it is the only one to make it out of the Coca-Cola Contest. E-mail me for pictures  cokebottle1916@gmail.com        Tks


 
 Gary:

 I just sent you an email and look forward to seeing the additional pictures. Is it okay to post them on this thread? Plus, I would eventually like to conduct a brief interview with you if you are interested in that. Please let me know and I will post some questions here for your consideration.

 Thanks a million for stopping by.

 Bob


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## JeffDean (Apr 28, 2013)

Just received an email from Gary, the gentleman with the Ray Graham bottle. He says feel free to email him anytime with questions, interests...etc, about his bottle. You can email him here: 

 Here is a recent pic of his bottle encased.


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## cokebottle1916 (Apr 28, 2013)

Bob, Call anytime to talk about the Bottle Indiana     Gary


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

Here is the article written by Rob Mathison regarding this fantastic bottle and it's history, what an incredible bottle in my personal opinion...


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 28, 2013)

Gary:

 If its good for you, I will call you tomorrow (Monday) evening at 5:00 PM Pacific Time / 8:00 PM Eastern Time.

 Please let me know.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

Thanks for the emails Gary...


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

No disrespect to the Deans or the original hobbleskirt but I would rather own this one than the hobbleskirt original for some reason, but I'm a bit wacky...[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 28, 2013)

Jim / epackage ~

 Thanks for posting the article. I knew you could do it.  

 Bob


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

Blown up pics from Rob Mathison's article...


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

.


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## epackage (Apr 28, 2013)

.


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## zecritr (Apr 28, 2013)

ool knew you could do a better job.


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## cokebottle1916 (Apr 29, 2013)

Thanks for the nice job with the picture. Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 29, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Gary:
> 
> ...


 

 Gary:

 I got your emails and thank you for providing me with your phone number. I will call you this evening.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 29, 2013)

I just got off the phone with Gary Salb and had an amazing hour-and-a-half long conversation with him. I plan to share more about that conversation in the morning but I can tell you now that Gary is what I consider a regular guy who just happens to have inherited what might very well be the most sought after and most valuable soda bottle on the planet. People around the globe are drooling over it as if it were a Van Gough painting which, in my opinion, is far more interesting than any ol' painting ever will be. After all, it's a one of a kind Coca Cola prototype that has been tucked away for ages and is just now seeing the light of day, not to mention that it's for sale if Gary's magic number is met. And even though I don't know exactly what that magic number is, I can tell you if the right person comes along the bottle will be theirs. But before you break open your piggy banks and start counting your nickles, you might want to consult someone like Donald Trump first, because I suspect it will be someone like him who will eventually end up purchasing the bottle. 

 More later ... (I took notes)

 Bob


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## zecritr (Apr 29, 2013)

Sweet Would Love to hear More

 trump stole my Piggy bank so I'm out of the Running hehehe


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## epackage (Apr 30, 2013)

I look forward to tomorrow...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

Please keep in mind the phone conversation I had with Gary Salb was just that, a conversation and not an interview. Gary did most of the talking and I kept notes as best I could. Gary gave me permission to "tell all" because he is eager for his story to be told in order to bring as much attention to his bottle as possible. But rather than my presenting this information word for word as told to me by Gary, I thought it would be easier to format it in a timeline. Some of the first names and dates might not be 100% accurate but should be close enough for our interest here. But first, a little about Gary himself ...

 Gary lives in Jasper, Indiana and is 57 years old. He does not consider himself a bottle collector despite the fact he possesses one of if not the rarest soda bottle in the world. Remember, there are at least two of the Earl R. Dean prototypes but only one of the Graham prototypes, which just happens to be owned by Gary. It was left to him by his grandfather who I will discuss shortly. And speaking of the Graham Glass Company, Gary has already confirmed that no one named Graham has any legal claim to the bottle and that the patent on it ran out many years ago.

 Note: Gary shared a lot of funny anecdotes about his family with me, but are too numerous to include here.

 1870:

 Gary's great grandfather, O. Arnold Kremp, starts a bottling business in Jasper, Indiana. (I assume the name Kremp is on Gary's mother's side of the family but I never did confirm this with him). Gary said he has bottles with the name Kremp on them and that some of them are embossed and some have (acl) painted labels. The bottling company was a family business from 1870 until it was sold in 1986. 

 Early 1900s:

 Gary's great grandfather purchases the first motorized vehicle in the town of Jasper, which was a truck he used for deliveries. Ironically, the truck was made by the Graham brothers who originally owned Graham Glass. Gary said the truck's fuel tank was poorly designed in that the truck would quit running when going uphill. Thus, they literally had to drive it "in reverse" in order go up hills.

 1910:

 Gary's great grandfather becomes an independent Coca Cola franchise bottler in Jasper, Indiana.

 1915:

 Gary's grandfather (whose first name I did not get) is 15 years old at this time and attends the Coca Cola bottlers convention with his dad, O. Arnold Kremp. 

 Gary isn't sure if it was his great grandfather or his grandfather who actually removed the bottle from the display table at the convention but assumes it was his great grandfather who in turn gave it to his 15 year old grandfather as a "souvenir" of their visit to the Atlanta, Georgia convention. But irregardless of which one of them removed the bottle, it went home with them to Jasper where it was displayed for a time at the family bottling plant there. 

 Jumping ahead to the 1970s and 80s ...

 Gary worked in the family bottling business as a teenager as did Gary's father along with other family members. Gary said everyone was aware of the bottle's existence but that no one really thought much about it other than it was a novelty and family souvenir. 

 I'm not sure when, but somewhere along the line Gary's grandfather eventually put the bottle in a safe deposit box where it remained until 1987 which is when his grandfather passed away. It was always known that the bottle would eventually become Gary's because it was promised to him by his grandfather. Apparently Gary was one of the most devoted and hardest workers at the family bottling plant.

 As it turns out, Gary's mother took the bottle home from the bank and for some unknown reason placed the bottle and the canvas bank bag it came in, into a "kitchen drawer." Inside the bag with the bottle were the two Kurtz cards (see article pictures) but to this day no one knows exactly what the cards refer to or when Gary's grandfather acquired them. The assumption is that the cards had something to do with the Coca Cola Companies interest in the bottle. Because Gary's grand father was a Coca Cola bottler, the parent company has been aware of the bottle's existence for many, many years and had often expressed an interest in someday acquiring it for their museum archives. However, Gary indicated that Coca Cola was not prepared to "pay the price" and apparently wanted Gary's grandfather to donate the bottle to them, which he was not interested in doing.

 Current:

 I have intentionally left out a lot of stuff, which for the most part are tid-bits of information that Gary shared with me that would make for great reading if Gary ever does a book,  but hopefully you have a general idea now of the bottle's timeline.

 As you know, the bottle is for sale and Gary is considering offers. And even though this is pure speculation on my part, I predict that if/when the bottle sells, the price will exceed $500,000.00 ... Or should I say, on Gary's behalf, "I hope it does."

 If I think of anything else of interest, I will post it later.

 In the meantime, I want to thank Gary for speaking with me and for allowing me to share just a small fragment of a much larger and more interesting story than I have been able to tell here.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

This 1961 newspaper article, which I believe is a birth announcement for Gary's younger brother Ryan, will confirm the connection between the names Salb and Kremp.

 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=w_EaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xkcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6557,3256977&dq=kremp+jasper+indiana&hl=en 


 I did a little research on Kremp / Coca Cola / Bottling and have found a little information, but haven't had time to fully research it yet but intend to.

 Bob


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## zecritr (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks Bob for relaying that info 
 most certainly helps in the Timeline for sure

 Jasper Huh  Hmm only a couple hours at the most from me  hehehe now finding the gas money would be interesting  LOL Provided Gary Would let me see the bottle  oh and would have to snag a decent camera for sure  LOL

 Womder if i could find a dig spot on the way there or back  LMAO Hmmm I might not make it back home if i did  LOL


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

Correction ...

 Because of the patent date on the Dean bottle, I keep thinking the Coca Cola bottlers convention in Atlanta was held in 1915 when in fact it was held in January of *1916*, which is when Gary's bottle was removed from the display table by either his great grandfather or grand father.

 Bob


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## cokebottle1916 (Apr 30, 2013)

Wow!    Bob, Thanks for the kind words, but I was not the hardest working one at the plant, and I do not have a younger brother named Ryan. I think the reason my Grandfather wanted me to have the bottle was I did show some interest in his bottle collection and he liked my wife. ( My Grandparents  thought she was a Saint putting up with me).  One more typo, the bottle was never on display at the bottling plant. No one ever saw the bottle till about ten years ago. Except my mother who really did have it in here kitchen drawer. Thanks to everyone for letting me post here to get the word out about my bottle.  Tks Gary


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## OsiaBoyce (Apr 30, 2013)

Why doesn't any heirs of the Graham brothers have any say or claim to this bottle? They did design it did they not? I guess Libby-Owens might could have had a dog in this fight, but would not the Pilkington Group be the actual owners if someone had not "removed the bottle  from the display......................."?


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## Eric (Apr 30, 2013)

Yes I'm surprised someone doesn't come for the bottle... If it's clear that his grandfather took it, it really doesn't belong to them.
 If my great grandfather designed something and it was taken then turned up decades later with someone clearly stating they â€œtookâ€ it... I
 would come knocking... Not really the right way to go about it... maybe that's why they kept it hid....
 Should have asked for the bottles that were rejected.


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## zecritr (Apr 30, 2013)

Sorry the statue of limitations on shopplifting probably expired and it was his Grandfather not him,Should we throw you out of the house because you grandpa tooted in the tub? get real


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## cokebottle1916 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ok new info just talked to the heavens . The bottle was given to my Grandfather. See now everyone is happy happy happy


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## zecritr (Apr 30, 2013)

LMAO
 Darn and i wanted to say finders keepers losers weepers


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

Based on the brief research I did, there appears to be no reason for concern regarding ...

 Petty Theft / Receiving Stolen Goods / Etc. 

 What is Statute of Limitations?

 Statutes of Limitations is a statute in a common law legal system that is designed to set forth the maximum period of time that a certain legal proceeding based on certain events may be commenced. A Statute of limitation is basically the amount of years that an individual or a business has to proceed with a legal claim. If the statute of limitation has ran, that individual or the business will not be able to use the legal system to bring a small claims suit.

 Indiana Code 35-41-4-2 - Periods of limitation


 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Sec. 2. (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a prosecution for an offense is barred unless it is commenced:
 1. within *five years* after the commission of the offense, in the case of a Class B, Class C, or Class D felony; or
 2. within *two years* after the commission of the offense, in the case of a misdemeanor.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

And for the state of Georgia ...

 If under $500 it is a misdemeanor and the statute of limitations is two years. If it is $500 or more, the theft is a felony and the statute of limitations is four years.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Not to mention that would be somewhat like saying every bottle in my collection that is marked "Product of the Coca Cola Company" is still their property. If that were the case all of us would be in trouble. 

 Bob


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## Eric (Apr 30, 2013)

Ha.. Wow.. I am real and I was just thinking out loud.. I'm just wondering if someone could lay legal claims to it
 since it was taken without permission. More than likely no one cared, they were all going to be destroyed anyway
 it sounds but the post before mine had me wondering... say it was your companies and/or families design and bottle,
 it goes missing, then decades later it shows up and now worth serious money possibly to the right person... 
 Then that family/company steps forward asking for its return, could they get it returned since the one who has it has
 claimed it was taken without permission in the first place. That's a far question... dang lighten up.

 By the way I'm not the one who used the words â€œshoplifted, Petty Theft, Receiving Stolen Goods, Etc.â€ 

 And for what its worth... cool bottle... a shame they all weren't saved.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Apr 30, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> No one ever saw the bottle till about ten years ago.


 
 Eric ~

 Because I am the thread starter on this topic I will attempt to moderate it by stating ... 

 Gary is the really theperson to ask regarding the bottle's rightful owner. Everything else, including my own comments, are just loose opinions based on conjuncture. The reason I posted the partial quote of Gary's above is because, based on what he told me, there are numerous people who are fully aware of the bottle's existence, including the likes of the Coca Cola Company who have had ample time in recent years to look into every aspect of the bottle's legitimacy as well as any legal concerns. I have to believe that someone along the line even looked into the patent aspects and probably came up empty handed. And speaking of the patent, I think its ironic that the bottle was "removed" from the convention table "before" it was even patented. The convention was held in January of 1916 but the bottle wasn't patented until November of 1916. Can you imagine the tangled mess it would be for a judge to try and determine the ownership of something that "disappeared" "before" it even legally existed?

 Thanks for your participation and comments. I for one appreciate them.

 Bob


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## OsiaBoyce (Apr 30, 2013)

Statute of limitations does not convey ownership..........................if something was stolen from me 50 ago, it's still mine. Holocaust victims artwork is an example.

 Still I ask, why does the Graham heirs have no claim?


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## cokebottle1916 (May 1, 2013)

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! I made a mistake. I thought it would be fun talking about the bottle,but I think I was wrong. Stolen? Come on guys. Next time you eat at restaurant don't take a extra pack of ketchup or napkin. I will not post anymore here so PM if you want more info. I am done with this game. Thanks Gary


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## cokebottle1916 (May 1, 2013)

Oh by the way the Bottle was given to my Grandfather. They liked him. They also told him to give the bottle to Grandson of his choosing. That's my story and I am stricken to it. Now this is my last post here. Wow! my family are lairs and thief's. Thanks again Gary


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## zecritr (May 1, 2013)

Sorry for the way i put that if it offended,true it is a legitimate  question still think that would have been figured out years ago,like bob pointed out.

 Gary please don't stop posting here,these types of questions will always come up about anything. 
 And it is way to easy on the Internet to misunderstand something that was said or how it was said.Happens to me al the time and i do it all the time.

 you Have a Great Bottle and a Great story,we really would love to see more of it and hear more of the history.

 These types of things are also why we recommend YOU right/write the story


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## jays emporium (May 1, 2013)

Gary, I don't blame you for being upset about some of the comments here.  This is a worldwide forum and there are some members on here who continually stir up the pot and probably some who are jealous that you have such a fine bottle.
 There is no way to know what actually happened in that room 97 years ago.  A likely scenario would be your grandfather asked, "What's going to happen to  these other bottles that didn't win?"  Reply, "We're gonna throw them away."  "Can I have one?"  "Sure, kid, take whatever you want."
 Anyway, whether you post here anymore or not, the word is out about your bottle.  If you are really going to sell it the best thing for you is publicity.  Your story should be told in the two American bottle magazines, ANTIQUE BOTTLE & GLASS COLLECTOR  and BOTTLES & EXTRAS.  There is a national bottle collectors show in July in Mansfield, NH.  It would be easy to arrange having your bottle on display for bottle collectors to view at that show.  That might lead to some National news coverage, Yahoo, Fox News, whatever.  And then place the bottle in an auction with a large antique auctionhouse.
 You have the ball rolling.  Antique-bottles.net is a start and now the word is out.  Good luck, whatever you decide to do.  If you need contact information for the bottle magazines feel free to email me.
 Jay


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## epackage (May 1, 2013)

[:-]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

I'm obviously not an authority on the subject, but because I support Gary in every way and would like to hear more from him, I did some extensive reading on the topic and came up with the following ... 

 1.  If an official claim was submitted in 1916 stating the bottle had been stolen, then whoever submitted that claim *might* have a right to the bottle today.

 However ...

 2.  If no offical claim was filed in 1916 then the law defines it as no theft having occurred. 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

Somewhat similar situation / Interesting reading ...

 Children Under A Palm Tree / Winslow Homer Painting / Theft or Throw Away?

 http://nell-rose.hubpages.com/hub/Children-under-a-Palm-Tree-Fake-or-Fortune-A-Mothers-Quest

 "There was no burglary, as the Blakes stated in the first place. So surely the law just has to decide whether if you throw something away, have you a claim to it now?"

 Wikipedia:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Under_a_Palm


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

Back to another aspect of this topic ...

 Because we only skimmed the surface on this earlier I would like to revisit it now with a little more focus ...

 Is it possible the Graham Glass Company had more than one entry in the 1916 contest? Notice the patent date(s) on the bottle pictured here and the two that follow. They are exactly the same! The only difference being, one was patented by Ray Graham and two were patented by Robert Graham. Is it simply that the Graham brothers designed three bottles at the same time for no particular reason or ...

 1. Because they had more than one entry in the contest?

 Or ...

 2.  Because they designed three bottles for the contest but only entered one of them? 

 Ray A Graham / Bottle Patent Number 49,924
 Filed June 30, 1916
 Patented October 3, 1916

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD49924?pg=PA2&dq=Graham+bottle+49,924&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ESyBUYGrN8yoqQGD9YGoBg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Graham%20bottle%2049%2C924&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

Robert C. Graham / Bottle Patent Number 49,729 
 Filed June 30, 1916
 Patented October 3, 1916

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD49729?pg=PA1&dq=R+C+Graham+bottle+49,729&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MimBUeDPDYKNqgGiwIDQAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=R%20C%20Graham%20bottle%2049%2C729&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

Robert C. Graham / Bottle Patent Number 49,730
 Filed June 30, 1916
 Patented October 3, 1916

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD49730?pg=PA2&dq=Graham+bottle+49,730&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eCuBUZX8JY_xqQGFmICQBA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Graham%20bottle%2049%2C730&f=false


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## tftfan (May 1, 2013)

Dont let the HECKLERS get ya down ! That bottle is SWEEEET !


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

P.S. ~

 While contemplating your answer to my questions above, please show me where the contest rules state ...

 "Only one entry per manufacturer"

 Gracias'

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 1, 2013)

Correction ...

 The Ray Graham *filing* date is the same as his brother Robert's two bottles, which was June 30, 1916, but for some reason  Ray's bottle received a later patent date of November  21, 1916.

 However, even with this clarified, my questions still remain.

 Bob


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## epackage (May 1, 2013)

I'm going to say that all three bottles were designed with the thought in mind they could/would be entered in the contest, I say this because *they all meet the criteria* mentioned about Coke wanting the bottles to stand out by feel alone when sticking ones hand into a ice filled cooler. Whether or not they were all in the contest, I have no input, and unless one surfaces the way Gary's did I doubt we will ever know, unless someone from Coke can tell you...


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## digdug (May 1, 2013)

A friend showed me this bottle years ago. I think it was one of the contest bottles too, but was the loser. We all know the contour from ROOT won.   
 This bottle has arrows on the neck area, panels, much like the soda water bottles used by Coca-Cola bottlers, marked: ATLANTA, GA on the bottom. And no makers mark.  I have seen two in the past 6 years. Both damaged in much the same way. It looks as if someone knocked off the neck on purpose. 
 Maybe this is what happened to the 'Losers' of the contest!
 See the next page for more of this bottle.


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## digdug (May 1, 2013)

Another photo....


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## epackage (May 1, 2013)

WOW, that's gonna make Bob's head spin...lol[]


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## zecritr (May 1, 2013)

This bottle sorta makes me think of the "Robert C. Graham / Bottle Patent Number 49,730 "

 probably isn't but gives me that idea anyways,maybe bob can tell


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## pinballdude (May 1, 2013)

I always wondered what happened to the "other" bottles.
 Am I the only one who wonders why the Graham bottle looks hobble skirt, too?
 Coincidence?


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## epackage (May 1, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: pinballdude
> 
> I always wondered what happened to the "other" bottles.
> Am I the only one who wonders why the Graham bottle looks hobble skirt, too?
> Coincidence?


I asked this way back on the first page, nobody seems to know...


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## zecritr (May 1, 2013)

Industrial espionage of course  lol
 just as rampant back then as today  we just got better tools today  lol


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## Eric (May 1, 2013)

I think the Graham bottle looks more organic.. maybe they too looked at the Cocoa plant...

 Hard to believe they went to all that trouble, each company/group, to design a bottle then make/cast only one.
 I'm sure they would have made several... maybe even trying out different color glass... some may have kept a
 prototype others may have destroyed them once they realized their design wasn't chosen...

 When the grandfather took the Graham bottle.. later came back and seen they were all gone... heck maybe everyone
 grabbed a bottle or they got handed out... Maybe no one cared as they focused on the new design...
 One would think there probably was a photo....all lined up... would be a great image.


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## celerycola (May 1, 2013)

If all of the "inappropriate and disruptive" comments are removed from this and other threads found at this site are removed we would have maybe a third of the content and what was left would be like reading bible verses in church. There's nothing wrong with reading the bible out loud, of course, but we are a diverse community from all walks of life and all parts of the country. We have a common interest in soda bottles and their history and come here both to learn and to share. 

 I agree with Osia that there is way too much opinion and conjecture presented here as fact and it is a disservice to the new collectors tuned in today and those who may happen across the site in the future to spread mis-information. It does not help to attack the messenger and "submit a complaint to the administration" when the message is no more inappropriate than the tv shows your kids watch. 

 I know the Arlo Guthrie song and think I know where Arlo's coming from. I feel the same about Osia and am pleased to hear from either of them at any time. If the "administration" needs to remove posts they may as well start with mine. If they choose to remove the humanity from this site due to someone getting their feathers ruffled for a friendly question of the facts I will continue to read and post at the numerous other sites where collectors come together to share.


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## celerycola (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for posting this one, Doug. It makes sense in the context of several bottles vying to win the lucrative Coca-Cola contract that this would be one of the contenders. It shares the important attributes of the other two bottles: distinctive shape, Coca-Cola in script, Contents 6 1/2 ounces, and Atlanta, Ga. Interesting that this bottle was used across the nation for soda water bottled by Coca-Cola bottlers. I have an emerald green 1950's ginger ale from Liberia in this squared shape coming my way in a trade with FloridaBottleDude. 


> ORIGINAL:  digdug
> 
> A friend showed me this bottle years ago. I think it was one of the contest bottles too, but was the loser. We all know the contour from ROOT won.
> This bottle has arrows on the neck area, panels, much like the soda water bottles used by Coca-Cola bottlers, marked: ATLANTA, GA on the bottom. And no makers mark.  I have seen two in the past 6 years. Both damaged in much the same way. It looks as if someone knocked off the neck on purpose.
> ...


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## cowseatmaize (May 2, 2013)

Classic case of a cough on one side a village being pneumonia on the other in minutes.
 I apologize for the rudeness Gary. After going over it for the first time, it was purely the accusations of apparently small minds that came to the conclusion of "stolen". I see no indication from you or any other reason to lead me to that conclusion.
 I hope they are ashamed of themselves.
 Very nice, rare bottle you got there. Be proud of it.
 Eric


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 2, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  digdug
> 
> Another photo....


 
 digdug ~

 Except for the Coca Cola signature and the arrow, the bottle you posted definitely looks like what is typically referred to as a fruit flavor bottle. I have never seen one like yours and have to wonder (because of the embossed script) if it was intended for Coca Cola itself / flavors / or both? I also wonder if there is a connection between the verticle arrow on your bottle and the arrows seen on the straight-sided amber bottles which I believe date from about 1912 to about 1916? It wouldn't surprise me to discover that the original Graham version of a similar bottle was one of the entries at the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention. But finding confirmation of that is another question and the primary focus of this thread.

 Below is the Graham patent again for comparison to your bottle.

 Thanks for sharing and bringing your bottle to our attention.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 2, 2013)

Just for the record ...

 Here's another Robert C. Graham patent of a similar bottle dated 1923. Notice the sculptured neck and stars.


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## zecritr (May 2, 2013)

Robert C. Graham and Frank R. Miller of the Graham Glass Company of Evansville, Indiana. Robert's Father had started the glass company and it operated from 1913-1930.  After 1916 it was a subsidiary of the Owens Bottle Company, Toledo;

 http://www.bottlebooks.com/designer%20sodas/designer_soda_bottles1920.htm

 So did they go broke in designing for the coke contest and had to give over later to Owens? who used a type from the contest? into the above bottle?
 And is there a way to find out?


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 2, 2013)

z ~

 I'd like to draw your attention to the following link I posted on page one of this thread regarding the Graham brothers. They definitely did not go broke but rather sold their glass company and began manufacturing trucks. 

 As to yor question about who used the flavor style of bottle, (the basic one without the Coca Cola signature) I'd say just about every bottler in the country used it. But whether everyone who used it was a Coca Cola franchise bottler or not, I do not know.

 Bob

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham-Paige 

 Graham Brothers:

 After successful involvement in a glass manufacturing company (eventually sold to Libbey Owens Ford) brothers Joseph B. Graham (September 12, 1882â€“July 1970), Robert C. Graham (August 1885â€“October 3, 1967) and Ray A. Graham (May 28, 1887â€“August 13, 1932) began in 1919 to produce kits to modify Ford Model Ts and TTs into trucks.

 http://www.allpar.com/trucks/graham-brothers.html

 [ Graham Brothers Trucks ~ I'm not sure of the dates on these particular one's  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 2, 2013)

P.S. ~

 According to the second link I posted, the Graham brothers started their truck company in *1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 2, 2013)

*In search of ...*

 The answers to many of our questions might be found in the following written by Coca Cola co-founder Asa Candler, titled ...

 "Confidence In Your Product" ( 1916 Bottlers Convention Booklet )

 If anyone has an original copy or finds anything related to in online, please share it with us.

 Thanks

 Bob

 [  Scroll to page 478 / Paragraph 47  ] 

 http://books.google.com/books?id=bSAChoqpnHUC&pg=PA478&lpg=PA478&dq=Asa+Candler+confidence+in+your+product&source=bl&ots=JuUmjZhlgf&sig=WYoZ5TSBJ8GeknZvG86c4umZ034&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zsOBUenjEqKV0QGqhoGwCg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Asa%20Candler%20confidence%20in%20your%20product&f=false


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## zecritr (May 2, 2013)

Whoops sorry missed that,figures
 ok not broke lol


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## OsiaBoyce (May 2, 2013)

A well worded retort and the power goes out.......................................now that just sucks.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 3, 2013)

For the record ...

 Just because the Graham brothers sold their glass company in 1916 and went into the truck making business, that doesn't mean there are no Coca Cola bottles with the Graham mark later than 1916, because there are. In fact, Graham marked Coca Cola bottles can be found as late as 1929 and possibly even 1930. I will post some links later so you can read all about it.

 Bob

 Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana; Loogootee, Indiana; and Okmulgee, Oklahoma (1907-1929). Another plant location also was operated at Chekotah, Oklahoma until 1923. Graham owned by Owens Bottle Company after 1916, plants became part of Owens-Illinois in 1929.

 [ Insert from Bill Porter's book ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 3, 2013)

P.S. ~

 What I find even more interesting and ironic regarding the Graham sell-out is, even though the Graham brothers were well established truck makers by 1923, brother Robert C. Graham apparently still had a passion for soda bottles at the time as evidenced by this bottle he patented in 1923.

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=xjBbAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 [ I realize having posted this same patent recently, but I didn't fully explain the 1916 vs 1923 dates ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 3, 2013)

Term of patent 14 years ...

 http://books.google.com/books?id=c3yW_SCzqzcC&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=robert+c+graham+bottle&source=bl&ots=ttZ9T_Wuxs&sig=JrRRMJ7Z8VpinalN3brbTiYp2iM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cPqDUaiFGY_L0gHV9YG4CQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=robert%20c%20graham%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 3, 2013)

Another term of patent 14 years ... ( I bet everybody will recognize this one )

 http://books.google.com/books?id=dXjXZMhdsV0C&pg=PA908&lpg=PA908&dq=status+on+1916+patent+49,924&source=bl&ots=_pkcfvsNFd&sig=JajInsKcRAQSWMo9kZ3ywCP687E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k_6DUe25J8nC0QHx9YDAAg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=status%20on%201916%20patent%2049%2C924&f=false


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## zecritr (May 3, 2013)

interesting bottle patent above grahams in that first patent


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## cokebottle1916 (May 4, 2013)

OK OK I must eat crow. I"m back posting. This site is just to interesting and full of information to stay away. Now the bottle that was broken but thought to be in the contest looks good. The abbreviation of fluid is FLU, the same that is on my bottle. Interesting? I have been told is was that way abbreviations were  the early 1900"s. By the way thanks to this site I have received one offer on my bottle. So Thanks for the help. No, I did not sell the bottle..........Thanks Gary


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## zecritr (May 4, 2013)

Cool welcome back
 Glad you didn't sell it 
 Still Hope to get up there and see it


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## T D (May 4, 2013)

Congrats Gary on a really cool bottle.  One related note on the "FLU" marking- that has interested me about bottles of that era also.  I went back and checked some Chero Colas in my collection and these are some of the markings (all either 7 or 6 1/2).  I'll do all caps to simplify- 

  FLUID OZ, FLUID OZS, OUNCE, OUNCES, FL OZ, FL OZS, OZ, OZS, FLU OZ, FLU OZS, FLUID OUNCES.  

 Just like in other aspects, not a lot of conformity in bottles until later on.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

Regarding contents *embossments* on old soda bottles ...

 1. According to the Norman L. Dean book "The Man Behind The Bottle" pages 142-143, it indicates the original 1915 prototype did not have the contents embossed on it.

 However ...

 2.  The "modified" contour bottle (the one that eventually went into production) was embossed with ... 

*CONTENTS 6-FL. OZS.*

 Additionally ...

 3.  Prior to 1913 when the Gould Admendment went into effect, the majority of bottles - food/drug containers - etc; were not required to label their products with contents amounts. The Gould Admendment changed that. (See links below).

 I believe it will require some rather extensive research to determine exactly when the *FLU* embossment was first introduced and for how long it was used. I have already looked around but so far haven't found anything specific. Perhaps a close examination of some circa 1915-1916 bottles is in order. 

 Bob

 Gould Admendment / Wikipedia:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gould_Amendment


 Detail / AN ACT / 37 Stat. 732 / Gould / Approved March 3, 1913

 http://www.fda.gov/regulatoryinformation/legislation/ucm148690.htm#enactment


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

P.S. ~

 I meant to address this earlier but forgot. It pertains to a comment someone posted earlier who wondered why the glass manufacturers who had entries in the contest would only produce "one or two" bottles for the contest? We may never know how many of Gary's bottle were produced, but I do know (according to the Dean book) that about "one dozen" of the winning contour bottles were produced and that only "two" of them are known to exist today. The other "ten" were (I believe) destroyed at the Root Glass factory.

 As far as anyone currently knows, Gary's bottle is a *one-of-a-kind.*

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

Following are pictures of both the Dean and the Salb bottles shown together for comparison ... I'll be danged if there aren't a whole bunch of similarities between the two!


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

And here's an example of a 1917 "modified" contour bottle ...


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## cokebottle1916 (May 4, 2013)

Wow~ Bob, I don't know where you get all you info, but keep it coming. And you say I should write a book? You should. Tks Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

Gary ~

 Thanks for the support but the truth is, some stuff is relatively easy to find if you devote enough time to search it out. But on the other hand, some stuff is almost impossible to find, especially when your not sure if it even exist, not to mention how to word it in my browser. Take for example the Graham bottle patent pictured below - I have been trying to find an example of it having been produced but I keep coming up empty handed. For all intents and purposes, it appears to be what most of us think of as a "flavor" or "soda water" bottle. And yet, when I use those words by themselves and/or variations of it such as "Graham Flavor Bottle," it invariably brings me back time and again to the patent illistration but no actual bottle. So this is a perfect example as to why Antique-Bottles.net is such a valuable tool in itself - with hundreds of members and thousands of guest, all it takes is one person to pop up and say, "Hey, I have that identical bottle in my collection," and then the next thing you know we have confirmation that it was in fact produced. However, that hasn't happened yet with this particular bottle design, so the search continues even if it might be in vain.

 By the way, I really don't expect to find one like this that's embossed with Coca Cola. That would asking for too much. But it would be nice if we could at least determine whether or not it was produced. It might appear like any ordinary flavor bottle, but already having found quite a few "similar" to it, I realize now that it is quite unique. The most notable features are ...

 1. The carved/scooped out neck.

 and ...

 2. The "bulges" near the bottom are pointed and not rounded like most flavor bottles are.

 As for my writing a book - this thread and the one of yours are likely as close to that as we will ever get - which is another benefit of Antique-Bottles.net - Instant publication with no red tape - but, of course, no profit either ... oh, well.

 Here are a couple of links for those interested in doing a little reading about Coca Cola "*Flavor Bottles*"

 http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/collectorscorner/flavorbott.html

 http://www.coca-colaconversations.com/2008/04/flavor-bottles.html

 And the patent to the bottle I am looking for - possibly in vain ... ???)

 ( If anyone has a bottle like this in their collection, please share it with us ).

 Thanks

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

Here's the closest bottle I have found so far. But notice the differences in the neck and the "bulge" at the bottom. I realize bottle designs are sometimes modified, but I'm pretty sure this is not an example of the bottle I'm looking for.

 Bob

 Note: 
 The website where I found this picture didn't know a single thing about the bottle other than it said "Coca Cola Bottling" in block letters around the heel.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 4, 2013)

P.S. ~

 It took me about two hours time to research and type my last couple of post, which some might say is obsessive and spending too much time online. But what they don't know is that I have my big screen tv positioned where I can watch CNN and be on the internet at the same time - sort of like chewing gum and walking at the same time - not to mention I can eat a burger with one hand and type with the other. (Lol)  [sm=thumbup1.gif]

 Later, 

 Bob


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## epackage (May 5, 2013)

I think that is your bottle Bob, very similar, and it was common to makes changes as you stated...


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## zecritr (May 5, 2013)

I know it's not but (i think) it looks like a ketchup bottle to me. First thing i think of when i see that patent.


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## cowseatmaize (May 5, 2013)

You... obsessive...?[][]
 If that's true that is proving OCD can be a good thing Bob. Chew all the gum you want while walking but don't run with scissors.[][][]
 I appreciate the info.





> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

Check this out ...

 Graham definitely modified their bottle from the original patent design!

 eBay / Description:

 "*Embossed around heel in small print is "Pat. No. 49729*"

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Art-Deco-Pittsburg-Kansas-Coca-Cola-Soda-Bottle-Square-Graham-Glass-1920s-/370776239641?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5653fc6e19

 Now scroll back and notice the patent number on the bottle under discussion.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

Heel / Cropped ...

 49729


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

Reminder:  The bottle was originally patented in 1916

 The eBay description states the bottle is also embossed with ...

*1188EG22 *

 Which I am almost certain is for *1922*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

However ...

 The bigger questions still remain unanswered, which are ...

 1. Was more than one entry per manufacturer allowed at the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention?

 and if so ...

 2. Did Graham Glass actually enter more than one bottle?

 Reminder: Based on the best information currently available there were eleven (11) bottles entered in the contest. 

 Note: The only real connection between the deco bottle under discussion and the Graham/Salb bottle that was removed from the convention are the patent dates of 1916.

 In my opinion ...

 1.  Only one entry per manufacturer was allowed.

 2.  Graham designed several bottles at the same time and then had their own internal contest to decide which one they wanted to enter in the contest.

 3. Graham voted for and entered the bottle now owned by Gary Salb.

 4.  Because Graham liked their other design(s), they eventually went on to produce them as well.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

Back to the future and the biggest questions of all ...

 1.  Who were the remaining nine (9) glass manufacturers who entered bottles in the 1916 contest?

 And ...

 2.  What did those bottles look like and what became of them?

 Lastly ...

 3.  Will we ever know the answers?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

One more ...

 https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/rec.antiques.bottles/dnSZo_Rawno


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 5, 2013)

Maybe I am obsessed ...

 Because now that I am searching/tracking patent numbers and not the elusive bottles themselves, I have already found a ton of references for the last Graham bottle under discussion, which was patent number 49,729 (Deco soda bottle).

 However ...

 When I search the Graham/Salb bottle patent number of 49, 924 ... I can't find a single reference to it other than this thread and various links that take me to the patent itself but no actual bottle. 

 I wonder why Graham Glass eventually produced their other bottle designs but not the "best" one of the lot?

 By the way, I actually did find another U.S. patent number 49,924 ... but it's for a *coal oil lamp* patented in 1865. I'm no patent expert, but maybe they reassigned numbers once the patent terms ran out. Either that or else "Design" patents for bottles are in a different category than regular patents. I think the answer is the latter but I'm not certain ... ???

 Coal Oil Lamp Patent 49,924 / 1865

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=oToAAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## zecritr (May 5, 2013)

maybe the other's weren't allowed in contest rules to use the losing bottles?

 Did i miss it ? but do you have the contest rules?


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## epackage (May 5, 2013)

Maybe the Graham's figured they might run into trouble with a lawsuit from Coke because of the shape of the bottle if the used it for another bottler, Coke had no trouble suing anyone and everyone back in the day...


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## celerycola (May 5, 2013)

Exhibit of Graham bottles at the 1915 Convention American Bottler's of Carbonated Beverages.


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## fer_de_lance (May 5, 2013)

sort of off topic but couldn't resist after the great display photo.

                          Tim


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## fer_de_lance (May 5, 2013)

different year convention, rough condition but probably hard to find considering the fragility


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## fer_de_lance (May 5, 2013)

the ink leaked out but glass pen looks to be undamaged.Any thought on how these pens worked?Were they functional?


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## surfaceone (May 5, 2013)

> As it turns out, Gary's mother took the bottle home from the bank and for some unknown reason placed the bottle and the canvas bank bag it came in, into a "kitchen drawer." Inside the bag with the bottle were the two Kurtz cards (see article pictures) but to this day no one knows exactly what the cards refer to or when Gary's grandfather acquired them. The assumption is that the cards had something to do with the Coca Cola Companies interest in the bottle. Because Gary's grand father was a Coca Cola bottler, the parent company has been aware of the bottle's existence for many, many years and had often expressed an interest in someday acquiring it for their museum archives. However, Gary indicated that Coca Cola was not prepared to "pay the price" and apparently wanted Gary's grandfather to donate the bottle to them, which he was not interested in doing.


 
 Evening BOB, Howdy Gary, howzit everyone,

 I saw that card with the name Wilbur G. Kurtz, Jr. and wondered about it, too.

 I did a bit of looking around and see that Wilbur, Jr. was a long time Coca-Cola man:





Sold on April 27, 2013.

 Wilbur Kurtz Jr. was the Coca-Cola Archivist, cited repeatedly in Norman Dean's book. 

 I wonder if Mr. Kurtz was not the emissary from Coca-Cola who went to see Gary's mother or grandmother about acquiring the bottle...

 BOB, thanks for a truly *epic* thread, man.

 "p.20	Kurtz's Korner: Contour Design for the Standard Bottle for Coca-Cola, Root Glass Company, Terre Haute, Indiana - History by Wilbur G. Kurtz, Jr., October 1975, The Archives, The Coca-Cola Company" T_he Coca-Cola Call_, 1977.


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## surfaceone (May 5, 2013)




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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

I don't a visit ever happened. Wilbur Jr. retired about 35 years ago. The note was on I think a white business card that had yellowed over the years.The note was with the bottle when the bottle was given to me. (It may not have anything to do with the bottle) . Just another answered question.  I think the bottle was requested many years ago and I think my Grandfather knew Wilbur Jr. as a friend. Remember, my Grandfather died at age 87 in 1986. He started bottling Coca-Cola with my Great grandfather when he was  about age 10. My great Grandfather signed up with the Carson's and Thomas Co. to bottle Coca-Cola in 1910. He was offered the Coke territory everything south of Indianapolis In. to exclude Evansville In. for $8.000.00 . He didn't have the money and he wasn't sure he could sell Coke. He was also offered the entire state of Indiana (exclusive) to sell 7-up for $10.000 and turned it down. Wow!  So that is some of the story that he wrote down before he passed away. I have that in writing. Tks Gary


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

Oh, by the way the note from Wilbur Jr. is brittle and yellowed. I guess it to be early 1930"s or 1940"s. It is old! Anyway to find out how old? Tks again. Gary


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

Wow!!! ZECRIYER makes the best comment on this site. Why would the Coca-Cola Co have a contest to choose a bottle, than let the competition use the losing bottles. No way........... I think that would have happened. This almost confirms, I just might have to one and only that survived.  Thanks guys. I think the bottle has to be worth over several hundred dollars. Thanks again Gary


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

One more thought. (Put yourself here). You have a company, you are going to choose a new package, so you invite your suppliers to create a special package for your product. After the meeting you choose the package you want and you tell your suppliers thanks. Now, go ahead and use the packages we didn't choose and sell to our competition. So for the next comment.  How DUMM do you think Coke is. NOT, I Don't think so. Every comment on this wonderful site is pointing to the one and only bottle known to have survived the Coca-Coca contest.   Tks again


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

Sorry for all the posts this morning. Now I have to go make a living. Can't wait till this evening. Well, Ok,,,,,,,,, I do have an I-phone so I can check on the road. But don't tell anyone. Ltr


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## ScottBSA (May 6, 2013)

This is a terrific thread.  I don't normally read the soda thread but this conversation is very interesting.  It gives real meaning to the word rare and the words one of a kind.  Good family stories as well and a tip of the hat to the car guys out there as well.  
 I can tell you there is one straight-sided coke bottle maker that was not in the running for the new coke bottle of 1916, Interstate Glass Company of Kansas City. Missouri.  The building was destroyed in a flood of the Missouri River in May-June 1903.  The factory was purchased by the Obear-Nestor Company and ran for I don't know how long afterwards.  I have a straight-sided coke and a whiskey bottle from that company.  The ISG Co was open for like 18 months.
 As an aside, has anyone ever heard of or seen an amber SS coke from Kansas City?

 Scott


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 6, 2013)

First of all, I want to thank the recent poster's for their comments and pictures - all of which are very helpful and informative. Regarding the Wilbur G. Kurtz Jr. card (pictured below), Gary stated it might have been given to his grandfather in the 1930s or 1940s. Just for the record, Wilbur George Kurtz, Jr. served as the Coca Cola archivist *between 1941 and 1977*, and was born in 1912 and died 1991.

 Secondly ...

 Hey, Gary

 Please tell us more about your family bottling plant in Jasper, Indiana. You told me on the phone that you have some old bottles, some of which are embossed and some that have (acl) painted labels. Do you have any pictures you can share with us?

 I'm also curious about the first names of both your great-grandfather and your grandfather, and if the last name, Kremp/Krempp, was spelled with one p or two? 

 Plus, is the George Kremp pictured in the link below your great-grandfather?

 Thanks again to all, especially to Gary.

 Bob

 Picture of George Kremp ~ Jasper, Indiana ~ Circa 1910:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=_MGxr2R0H4wC&pg=PA27&dq=Kremp+Jasper,+Indiana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nbWHUZuAMYfY0QGmyoCYCA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Kremp%20Jasper%2C%20Indiana&f=false

 1922 Indiana State Bottlers Convention ~ George Krempp ~ Board of Directors

 http://books.google.com/books?id=guw1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA22&dq=jasper+bottling+works+indiana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LL2HUeA3hdDTAfTogfgD&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=jasper%20bottling%20works%20indiana&f=false

 [ Wilbur G. Kurtz Jr. card ~ Date currently unknown ]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

Where do you find this stuff? That is my Great Grandfather George ? Find more pictures


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## epackage (May 6, 2013)

.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 6, 2013)

Jim / epackage ~

 Thanks for the enlargement. I'm sure everyone, especially Gary, will enjoy it.

 Now maybe you can find the rest of this article and make sense of exactly what took place where it says ...

 Visitors ... George Kremp of Jasper, Ind. ... visit of the Graham Glass Company.

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob

 [ The American Bottler ~ 1913 ]

 http://books.google.com/books?ei=_UCIUf7mCYX6yQGqmoH4BQ&id=r6ZRAAAAYAAJ&dq=o+a+kremp+bottling+jasper+indiana&q=kremp+


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## epackage (May 6, 2013)

Here you go Bob, it was a meeting of the Kentucky Bottlers Association...


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## epackage (May 6, 2013)

.


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

You guys are GOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where do you find these pictures? I wish I would have asked more questions.  Tks tons. Gary


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## zecritr (May 6, 2013)

Wow there are some names on there for sure  lol
 is that the epping of orange crush epping? of louisville,ky (have that on a bottle)


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## celerycola (May 6, 2013)

I'm surprised to see G. L. Wainscott of Winchester not listed or in the picture. Wainscott invented Roxa-Kola, a popular drink franchised in a number of towns that Coca-Cola eventually brought to court. 

 Several of those names listed were taken to court by Coca-Cola: Charles W. Springer, John Forthoffer, Epping of Louisville, and the Vogels of Henderson.

 The photo is a regular Rogue's Gallery.


> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> .


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## epackage (May 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: zecritr
> 
> Wow there are some names on there for sure lol
> is that the epping of orange crush epping? of louisville,ky (have that on a bottle)


 Makes sense...[]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 6, 2013)

Why not the Mr. Carson from Evansville Indiana? I think he also owned Madisonville Ky. I would have thought he would have been in the picture.


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## epackage (May 6, 2013)

I think a few men are cut out of the photo on the left side, I just posted it as I found it...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

*Observations / Questions / Speculation ...*

 Observations:

 1.  There are 25 names mentioned in the article

 2.  There are 20 men, one woman, and an African American wearing a cap in the picture, which totals 22 individuals.

 3.  Not counting the woman or the African American, there are at least 5 individuals not pictured.

 Questions:

 1.  For Jim/epackage:  Is the picture from the 1913 American Bottler article? ( I assume it is but you didn't specify ).

 2.  For Gary:  Is your great-grandfather George Kremp in the picture? ( I'm thinking the man on the woman's right with his hat pushed back above his forehead might be him).

 Speculation:

 1.  Because George Kremp and R. A. Graham both attended the meeting, it suggest they likely met and possibly even knew each other beforehand. After all, George Kremp had to purchase bottles from someone and it only makes sense that he would order them from a glass maker close to him in the same state.

 2.  Assuming for the moment they did know each other in some regard between at least 1913 and 1916, its possible the two men met again at the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention in Atlanta. And maybe, just maybe, after the bottle voting was done and the non-winner's names were revealed, that George Kremp was well aware that the bottle he removed from the table was a Graham bottle. Who knows, its even possible that the two men discussed the bottle afterwards. (Providing of course that R. A. Graham or one of the Graham brothers was at the 1916 Coca Cola convention, which hasn't been determine yet).

 3.  Who knows, maybe one of the Graham brothers told George Kremp, "Sure, go ahead and *take* the bottle. We don't need it because we have a dozen more just like it back at the factory." 

 One more Question for Gary:

 1.  Do any of the early (circa 1910 to 1920) Kremp bottles in your collection have the Graham makers mark?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

Are both of these pictures of George Kremp?

 [  Circa 1910  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

[ 1913  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> Where do you find these pictures?


 
 Gary ~

 In answer to your question, pictures can be found with the right wording (which is the tricky part), at various places on the Internet including Google Images, Google Books, Etc.

 Regarding my question about any Kremp bottles with the Graham makers mark, the following should help in case you are not sure. I believe the letters LP are also sometimes present ...

 Bob

 G 23, G 24, G 25, or similar configuration, embossed along the lower heel area of soda bottles (usually seen in light aqua or light green glass), this number is normally found within a string of several other letters and/or numbers. Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana. See Graham.

 Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana; Loogootee, Indiana; and Okmulgee, Oklahoma (1907-1929). Another plant location also was operated at Chekotah, Oklahoma until 1923. Graham owned by Owens Bottle Company after 1916, plants became part of Owens-Illinois in 1929.


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

I am going to check my bottles tonight . Tks


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## epackage (May 7, 2013)

Yes Bob, that pic is directly from the same page as the article..


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

Here are my Bottles
 1. Nov 1915   code 576 E G27  Evansville In on bottom
 2.Coca-Cola SS Evansville on bottom side  Code ROOT
 3.1901 SS in a circle on the side is printed Jasper Bottling Works Jasper Indiana Code 445 LP
 4.Nov 16 1915  code 575 E G24
 5. 1912 SS Evansville In bottom side   Code ROOT
   Looks like a mix of different MFG's   
    Tks Gary


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## zecritr (May 7, 2013)

Gary sent this to post  he gets to explain it  lol


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

The above bottle is my other rare find. A friend made it for me but will not tell how he does it. Z


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## epackage (May 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: cokebottle1916
> 
> The above bottle is my other rare find. A friend made it for me but will not tell how he does it. Z


 I can tell you how it was made Gary but that would take the fun out of it for you... Jim[]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

Come on I need to know. PLEASE


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

I have a bottle I might trade... Ok I better not


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

Jim ~

 Thanks for clarifying the picture. Notice the height of George Kremp in the first drug store picture and then compare it to the height of the man I singled out in the meeting picture - both are rather short men.

 ~*~

 Gary ~

 Thanks for posting your bottle list. Some of them are definitely Graham bottles, which confirms your granddad(s) ordered from them. 

 Do you happen to have a 1915 Coca Cola hobbleskirt with Jasper, Indiana on the base? If so, it is listed in Bill Porter's book as *scarce*.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 7, 2013)

P.S. ~

 I know the bottle/arrow trick, too, but I'm not telling how it's done, either  (Lol)  []

 Bob


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

My two Jasper bottles are NOV 16 1915


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## cokebottle1916 (May 7, 2013)

By the way this bottle trick is making my NUTS!!!!!!!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 8, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> By the way this bottle trick is making my NUTS!!!!!!!!!


 
 Wood through bottle trick ...

 Clue #1 ... Steam


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## cokebottle1916 (May 8, 2013)

I already figured it out wood is pliable. Tks


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 9, 2013)

I am currently working on a summary for this thread which I hope to have completed and posted in a few days. Of course I cannot speak for everyone, but as for myself I have pretty much exhausted my research abilities in the hopes of determining ...

 1.  Who the approximately nine other contenders were who entered bottles in the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention contest.

 2.  What those bottles looked like.

 3.  If those bottles were ever patented.

 4.  If those bottles were ever produced at a later date.

 I think our best hope of possibly finding some answers to these questions will be found in the publication I mentioned earlier by Asa Candler, entitled ... 

 "Confidence In Your Product / 1916 Bottlers Convention Booklet."

 Speaking of which, during the course of my research the following website came up several times. It is from the Virginia Historical Society Collection who I believe might have a copy of the booklet in their archives. It says their records are researchable but I haven't determined if that means in person only or via the Internet. If anyone lives in or near Richmond, Virginia, perhaps you could pay them a visit and see what they have. I plan to email them and ask about the booklet but just haven't done it yet. 

 For those that have the time, please scroll through the records on the link and see if you can determine which box/folder the booklet might be stored in ...

 Link:   http://www.vahistorical.org/arvfind/centralccbott.htm

 Additionally ...

 I am currently of the opinion that if any of the contending bottles were ever patented that it would have occurred sometime between 1915 and 1918 and not five or ten years later. I could very well be wrong about this but, like the Dean contour bottle and Gary's Graham bottle, I honestly believe any patenting would have occurred right away. 

 I conducted a somewhat extensive search for any beverage-type bottle patented between 1915 and 1918 and came up with the following list below. ( I did not include the other Graham bottles nor the Root/Dean bottle as they have already been discussed. I focused only on bottles previously undiscussed). You'd think there would be a ton of them, but the following examples are the only one's I could find in that particular date range. If there are more, I couldn't find them. Please check them out!

 I'll be back later with my summary.

 Bob

  [  Beverage/Soda-Type Bottle Patents Between 1915 and 1918  ]

 Arthur Zimmerman ~ Filed December 14, 1914 ~ Patented January 18, 1916

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD48480?pg=PA2&dq=48,480+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mquLUcndEs3F0AGtioHwBg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=48%2C480%20bottle&f=false

 G. E. Brett ~ Filed July 20, 1917 ~ Patented October 23, 1917

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD51409?pg=PA2&dq=51,409+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LcCLUZSKJoO70gGXiYHADg&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=51%2C409%20bottle&f=false

 E. S. Sutton ~ Filed August 1, 1914 ~ Patented December 18, 1917

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=eGxsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Henry C Anderson ~ Filed July 17, 1917 ~ Patented September 17, 1918

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=E6htAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 9, 2013)

P.S. ~

 More links for *future reference* ...

 This first bunch are patents by Coca Cola bottlers only that were in business during or prior to 1916. Notice the "Assignor" designations ...

 American Bottle Company:

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=ByhpAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=T81sAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=fvtoAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=BShpAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Chattanooga Glass Company:

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD73288?pg=PA2&dq=Chattanooga+glass+design+for+a+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ep-LUcHqGYrZ0wG424DoAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Chattanooga%20glass%20design%20for%20a%20bottle&f=false

 Laurens Glass Works:

 https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts#tbm=pts&sclient=psy-ab&q=laurens+glass+works+design+for+a+bottle&oq=laurens+glass+works+design+for+a+bottle&gs_l=serp.12...25426.29650.1.32722.12.10.0.0.0.9.2305.14625.6-4j2j1j3.10.0...0.0...1c.1.12.serp.nkmX76bz-Lc&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=63003363efaf67eb&biw=1024&bih=568 


 This second bunch is related to Graham bottles only / Various dates ...


 Digger O'Dell:
 http://www.bottlebooks.com/questions/march%202001/march_2001_questions.htm

 Graham 
 http://www.google.com/patents/USD70281?pg=PA1&dq=70,281+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O-yKUf2UA4ilqQG65IHYAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=70%2C281%20bottle&f=false

 Graham
 http://www.google.com/patents/USD70128?pg=PA2&dq=John+M+Lents&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mO2KUaOvMbCH0QGp5oHgDQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=John%20M%20Lents&f=false

 Graham:
 http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZadsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Graham:
 http://www.google.com/patents?id=L2dsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Graham:
 http://www.google.com/patents?id=-E5sAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Graham:
 http://www.google.com/patents?id=HE9sAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Graham:
 http://www.google.com/patents?id=0lBvAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 9, 2013)

Lastly ... (For the time being).

 Who is *Arthur Zimmerman* and what do we kow about his *1916* bottle?

 ( Just because it was filed in 1914 doesn't mean it couldn't have been entered in the 1916 contest )

 Patent:

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD48480?pg=PA2&dq=48,480+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mquLUcndEs3F0AGtioHwBg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=48%2C480%20bottle&f=false

 Misc. / Related:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=WcjmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=Arthur+zimmerman+bottle&source=bl&ots=ftkXonrBtX&sig=fMynTYwJbesOVDt67IL9YV0F9Mg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C6iLUfzQKMTV0QGpo4HoCA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Arthur%20zimmerman%20bottle&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=EfpYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT587&lpg=PT587&dq=Arthur+zimmerman+bottle&source=bl&ots=WcJHxqNWhA&sig=1APFVdfzwtGeOXV8cGjmIWrMfAE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r6iLUYzWKMHY0gHD24HIAQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBA

 http://books.google.com/books?id=Y-01AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=Arthur+zimmerman+bottle+designer&source=bl&ots=Sy7Kp7w3pJ&sig=h4Ne-6buKg-WJvSaOyFFjpdICPE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bqmLUfqIK8aG0QHWtYHgBw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Arthur%20zimmerman%20bottle%20designer&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=mnwbAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1032&lpg=PA1032&dq=Arthur+zimmerman+bottle+designer&source=bl&ots=eFigmHHXMq&sig=QC3bSN6b6G1wvbvT0Cm6dw00f6M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xqmLUZ-KJtS70QG96YDYDA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Arthur%20zimmerman%20bottle%20designer&f=false


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## zecritr (May 9, 2013)

I looked through the Virginia historical society website stuff and so far I haven't found anything or reference to anything past the early to late 20's,
  1927 is the earliest so far but who knows


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## zecritr (May 9, 2013)

Possible area's

 Series 15.5. Photographs and Prints, 1910â€“1965.

 but finished looking through what is posted there and nothing on this topic there


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 9, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  zecritr
> 
> Possible area's
> 
> ...


 

 Z ~

 I saw that category too and the following info from the website might be why my searches led me to it in the first place, especially because of the word "Convention." But you're right, nothing specific to 1916.

 Thanks for taking a look.

 Bob

 ~*~

 Series 15.5. Photographs and Prints, 1910â€“1965.

 This collection of photographs and prints features images of many men significant in the leadership of the Coca-Cola Company. Harrison Jones (folder 1739) was the Coca-Cola Company's fourth chairman. George T. Hunter (1738) was head of the Coca-Cola Bottling Company (Thomas), one of the largest suppliers of Coca-Cola syrups to bottlers in history. Ernest Woodruff (folder 1743) bought the Coca-Cola Company in 1919 with an investor from the Candler family.

 Folder:

 1725 Bottling Works Scrapbook, 1932â€“1955 
 1726  Candler, Asa G., 1929 
 1727  Coca-Cola Bottling (Thomas) Inc., 1942, 1965 
 1728  Coca-Cola Bottlers Conference, 1934 (Filed in Oversized Folder 2) 
 1729  Coca-Cola Bottlers Convention, 1928, 1948 (Filed in Oversized Folder 2) 
 1730  Coca-Cola Convention, 1910


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## celerycola (May 9, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Bottle for a competing drink "VIVA". I have found this rare bottle in the wild.
> G. E. Brett ~ Filed July 20, 1917 ~ Patented October 23, 1917
> ...


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## cokebottle1916 (May 9, 2013)

So, I have been reading this thread for about 2 weeks now and have come to the conclusion. Sodapopbob knows more about my bottle than I do. What a wealth of information. (Thanks Bob) So, now I have come to the decision the bottle that will be on display at the  Coca-Cola Convention in Charlotte NC. on July 3rd 4th and 5th 2013 .  The new display case arrived today and has been approved to display the bottle. Set the dates for July and view the bottle. I will post the room closer to the date. Thanks Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 10, 2013)

I'm organizing some emails to myself (which is how I save links, etc.) and wanted to post the two below before I lose track of them ...

 Bob

 From Dean Book / Reference to 1916 Convention

 http://books.google.com/books?id=dGTbe_4NXkAC&pg=RA1-PT4&dq=1916+coca+cola+bottlers+convention&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FQmNUfiYENOP0QGv3ICgAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBg

 2011 Julien's Auction / Dean Prototype / YouTube Video  

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERmqcl3E7M


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## zecritr (May 10, 2013)

1915
 Answering the call of
 The Cocaâ€‘Cola Company, the contour
 bottle prototype is designed by
 Alexander Samuelson and patented
 by the Root Glass Company. It is
 approved by the Bottlersâ€™ Association
 and becomes the standard bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 10, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  zecritr
> 
> 1915
> Answering the call of
> ...


 
 Just for the record ...

 The contour bottle was not designed by Alexander Samuelson but rather by Earl R. Dean. Samuelson's name is on the patent as assignor to the Root Glass Company, but only because that's the way they did things back then. For a more detailed explanation regarding this I recommend the book "The Man Behind The Bottle" by Norman L. Dean (son of Earl R. Dean).

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=bbVsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 Bob


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## zecritr (May 10, 2013)

lol i agree 
 but that is what is on the coca-cola page of a little booklet they made

 adnd a couple places i seen


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## celerycola (May 10, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201100905981814&set=o.348631341895299&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

 Patent model of a soft drink bottle. 

 One of the contenders?


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## zecritr (May 10, 2013)

well it looks cool but what makes it a patent model?
 looks like a carving of a botle from the sixties,had a couple of those as a kid 
 and it does look like a coke bottle, so if it is a contender what is the difference? or is it a patent model of the root/dean bottle?


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 11, 2013)

*Summary*: 

 Which might not be 100% accurate but is the best I could do by information gleaned from this thread as well as from the Internet.

 Related pictures can be viewed throughout the thread.

 ~*~ 

 1.  Early 1915 ... The Coca Cola Company announces to numerous glass manufactures about standardizing their bottle and invites glass makers to submit designs. (I'm not sure if this same announcement went out to the Coca Cola bottlers at the time but it might have. I believe it would be difficult to keep it a secret). 

 2.  June 1915 ~ Earl R Dean designs prototype bottle for Root Glass using an illustration of a cocoa pod he finds in a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

 3.  Root Glass files for a bottle patent for Dean's bottle design on August 18, 1915 which is officially patented on November 16, 1915. Patent number 48,160 is recorded under the name of Alexander Samuelson, assignor to the Root Glass Co., but bottle was actually designed by Dean. 

 http://www.google.com/patents?id=bbVsAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 4.  January 1916 ... Coca Cola bottlers convention held in Atlanta, Georgia where the Root/Dean bottle was selected by a seven member committee of bottlers (one of which who did not vote). The bottle was selected from among approximately eleven other entries. The names of the seven committee members is currently known but not the names of all eleven entrants.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=dGTbe_4NXkAC&pg=RA1-PT4&dq=1916+coca+cola+bottlers+convention&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FQmNUfiYENOP0QGv3ICgAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBg

 5.  The Kremp / Salb Story: 
 The last name is found with two different spellings. Krempp and Kremp. For our purposes here I will use "Kremp."

 1870 ... Andrew B. Kremp starts a soda bottling business in Jasper, Indiana.
 1910 ... Andrew B. Kremp and son George Kremp become Coca Cola franchise bottlers.
 1916 ... George Kremp and his 15 year old son (name?) attend the Coca Cola bottlers convention in Atlanta, Georgia.

 The following information was provided to me by Gary Salb. Gary is the great-great-grandson of Andrew ~ great-grandson of George ~ and grandson of O. A. Kremp ...

 While George and his son were at the 1916 convention, one of them, (its not known for certain which one) removed a non-winning contest bottle from a display table and then took the bottle home with them to Jasper, Indiana. The bottle later became the property of O. Arnold Kremp (Gary's grandfather) and eventually was placed in a safe deposit box in a Jasper, Indiana bank where it remained until O. Arnold's death in about 1986-87. It was Gary's mother who had the bottle next and who promptly placed it in a kitchen drawer for safe keeping. It wasn't until years later that Gary saw and held the bottle for the first time. It was still in it's original bank bag which also contained a note from Coca Cola archivist Wilbur G. Kurtz, Jr. It is not known for certain what the note referred to.

 5-A.  Andrew B. Krempp / 1880 Census / 44 Years Old / Grocer / Jasper, Indiana

 http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=6742&iid=4240583-00191&fn=Andrew&ln=Krempp&st=r&ssrc=&pid=26179239
 http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?did=17&pidlist=7602-13323075_6742-26179239&o_iid=39552&o_lid=39552&o_sch=Web+Property&gss=angs&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=26179239&db=1880usfedcen&indiv=1

 5-B. George Krempp / Son of Andrew:

 http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1880usfedcen&indiv=try&h=27285295

 5-C.  O. Arnold Kremp / Son of George: 

 [ *Note to Jim/epackage* ... If possible, could you please find and post the rest of the following "two" pages ~ Thanks ]

 "It was O. Arnold Kremp's father who built the company's fine plant in 191/, installing every modern production device and building an outstandingly attractive office. Of the children of the original pair, Andrew and Louisa Kremp, who were ... "

 http://books.google.com/books?id=fioXAAAAIAAJ&q=O+arnold+kremp&dq=O+arnold+kremp&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6lyOUfznNKjZyQGZ4oG4BA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

 5-D.  O. Arnold Kremp / Grandson of Andrew:

 "Andrew B. Kremp, Sr. began operating a bottling business in Jasper in 1870. "He was an original subscriber to the NATIONAL BOTTLERS' Arnold Kremp, grandson of the founder. A family business for over 112 years GAZETTE," reports his ... "

 http://books.google.com/books?id=-uoJAQAAMAAJ&q=O+Arnold+Kremp+grandson&dq=O+Arnold+Kremp+grandson&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9WGOUaKtIYeuqgGJ8oCIAg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA

 ~*~

 6.  Ray A Graham aspect:

 As it turns out, the bottle that George Kremp and his son "acquired" from the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention was designed and patented by Ray A Graham of the Graham Glass Company which was located in Evansville, Indiana at the time. Design patent number 49,924 was filed on June 30, 1916 and approved on November 21, 1916. To date the bottle is considered a one-of-a-kind as no other examples are currently known to exist. Most believe the bottle to be quite rare and quite valuable. 

 http://www.google.com/patents/USD49924?pg=PA2&dq=bottle+49,924&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2vKOUYDKBouI0QGRzoDIBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=bottle%2049%2C924&f=false

 ~*~

 Gary Salb has already looked into it and claims to have clear ownership of the bottle as there are no pending claims to the contrary that are currently known. The bottle is for sale and Gary is currently considering offers. If interested please contact him through this forum in the form of a personal message/email. If not sold beforehand, the bottle will be on display at the Coca Cola Convention in Charlotte, N.C. on July 3rd - 4th - 5th of this year, 2013.

 My personal thanks go out to Gary for sharing his amazing bottle/story with us. I also want to thank the numerous contributors' to this thread without whose help it would not have been possible nor received the attention it has.

 Bob

 [ "The Bottle"  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 11, 2013)

[  The Ray A. Graham patent for "The Bottle"  ]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 12, 2013)

Bob: I don't know how you do it. Every time you post you come up with more information.  Thanks, you are an asset to the board. Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 12, 2013)

Gary ~

 If not for you and Jeff Dean ( who brought your bottle to our attention ) this thread would never have been started. But now that it has, the only thing missing are *pictures* of your "other" bottles - the one's you have from the family bottling business - especially any painted label (acl) brands - which are my favorites.

 Speaking of which ...

 I found two Hutchinson bottles but am a little confused about them. Both are embossed with "G. H. Krempp" which I am assuming stands for George H. Krempp, your great-grandfather. If they do stand for "George," then they must be a later bottles (circa 1910) because I believe George was born in 1879 and would have been 31 years old in 1910. (I believe the majority of Hutchinson bottles date between about 1880 and 1900).

 Another confusing aspect is that one of the bottles is from Jasper, Indiana and one is from Huntingburgh, Indiana. Did you family also have a bottling plant in Huntingburgh or did they just distribute to that town?

 Anyhoo ... Check them out. 

 And, if possible, please share some pictures of your bottles with us.

 By the way, I also saw a listing for another Hutch bottle that was embossed "A. Krempp" but not sure of the date and assuming the A stands for either Andrew or Arnold ... ???

 Thanks again,

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 G. H. Krempp / Hutchinson Bottle / Jasper, Indiana

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/aqua-hutch-soda-jasper-bottling-jasper-ind

 Description:

 Embossed Jasper Bottling Works, G. H. Krempp, Prop. Jasper, IND.

 ~ * ~

 G. H. Krempp / Hutchinson Bottle / Huntingburgh, Indiana

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/aqua-hutch-soda-g-h-krempp-huntingburgh-ind

 Description:

 Embossed G. H. Krempp, Huntingburgh, IND. 

 [ Picture is of the Jasper Hutch ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 12, 2013)

[  Close Up  ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 13, 2013)

I'm not sure if the following link will work, and if it does for how long, but it's to a 1961 newspaper article about the 50th anniversary of the Kremp Coca Cola bottling company in Jasper, Indiana. Notice in the reference part below that Wilbur Kurtz attended the party that was held at the Dubois County Country Club. But in the article itself, I believe the Wilbur Kurtz reference is on (Continues on Page 12) part that I was unable to find.

 The most interesting part to all of this is that it places the Krempp family and Wilbur Kurtz at the same place at the same time. I wonder if Kurtz was told about "the bottle" and possibly even saw it during his visit?

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 [ If the link doesn't show the article its because they want you to purchase a print of it instead ]

 http://newspaperarchive.com/jasper-dubois-county-daily-herald/1961-05-24

 Jasper Dubois County Daily Herald, Wednesday, May 24, 1961 ... 

 Newspaperarchive.com â€º Home â€º Jasper Dubois County Daily Heraldâ€Ž 

 Cached 
 Share
 View shared post

 Check out Page 1 of Jasper Dubois County Daily Herald from Wednesday, ... 

 And talk to Mr. Kremp in turn asked Wilbur Kurtz of the Coca Cola promotions a ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 13, 2013)

P.S. ~

 I wonder what the front of this 1970 "green" 100th anniversary Krempp/Kremp bottle looks like?

  http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1970-100th-anniversary-coca-cola-39622926


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## zecritr (May 13, 2013)

wouldn't mind seeing that bottle (again) I've actually seen that one before many years ago,didn't think much of it at the time,just thought it was cool.


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## cokebottle1916 (May 13, 2013)

You have got to stop. I am learning more about my family every day. I did not know this party even happened. Bring on more info. By the way I have 3 of those green bottles. Gary
 http://newspaperarchive.com/jasper-dubois-county-daily-herald/1961-05-24 [/quote]


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## zecritr (May 13, 2013)

cool gary can we get a pic of both sides?


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## epackage (May 13, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I'm not sure if the following link will work, and if it does for how long, but it's to a 1961 newspaper article about the 50th anniversary of the Kremp Coca Cola bottling company in Jasper, Indiana. Notice in the reference part below that Wilbur Kurtz attended the party that was held at the Dubois County Country Club. But in the article itself, I believe the Wilbur Kurtz reference is on (Continues on Page 12) part that I was unable to find.
> 
> ...


 Here is the article Bob, I copied it because I couldn't get a good pic to post...
 [align=center] [/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Open House To Mark Coca-Cola Anniversary*[/align] [align=center]*A special open house for the dealers of the Coca Cola Bottling Co. of Jasper this evening and two open house seesions for the general public on Thursday will mark the continuation of the observance of the 90th anniversary of the Kremp family in the bottling business and the 50th anniversary of Coca-Cola in Jasper.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*The celebration got under way Tuesday night when the Kremp family hosted Coca-Cola bottlers and officials and the other guests at a dinner at the Dubois Conty Country Club. Bottlers from 8 cities in Indiana and 3 in Kentucky and 1 each from Ohio and Illinois attended as well as the Coca-Cola Co. officials from Chattanooga Tenn., Atlanta Ga. and New York.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*James A. Farley, company executive from New York and former Postmaster General was the guest speaker for the evening. Mr. Farley commended the Kremp family, stating that few businesseslast in the same family for 50 or 75 years, let alone 90 years.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*The speaker recounted many of his past experiences during his long career and outlined some of the advances being made by the Coca-Cola Co. throughout the world. Mr. Farley was introduced by DeSales Harrison, chairman of ther board of the Coca-Cola Bottling Co.(Thomas) Inc., of Chattanooga.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Ray Kremp of Bedford served as master of ceremonies for the evening. He called upon his brother, Earle Kremp of Washington, who introduced the other members of the family who were present. The six living children of George H. Kremp who atended included G.A. Kremp, Vern Casbon, Earle J. Kremp, Ray A. Kremp, John Drew and Ed Gill.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*The two daughters of G.A. Kremp and husbands, Mr. and Mrs. earl Salb and Mr. and Mrs. Jerome Schneider were introduced as were Ray Kremps daughter and her husband, Mr. and Mrs. Larry Evans.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Mrs. Carrie Kunkel of Jasper, daughter of the founder of the bottling business Andrew Kremp Sr. was unable to attend.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Representing the Coca-Cola Co. from Atlanta Ga. was Wilbur Kurtz, Frankling Garret, Dick Stevens of the fountain division and Ben R. McGowan. From Chattanooga were Mr. Harrison, William Workman, Ralph Lincot, Charles Pearce, David McKain and Bud Randolph.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Among the special guests were Mr. and Mrs. Albert Fritch, representing the dealers. Mr. Fritch has sold Coca-Cola continually for the last 45 years, it was announced. Mayor and Mrs. Edward Knies, Mr. and Mrs. Othmar Eckerle, Mr. and Mrs. Jerry Berge of WITZ and Mr. and Mrs. Jack Rumbach of The Daily Herald were also present. *[/align][align=left] [/align][align=center]*Employees and their wives or husbands of the Jasper plant and a group of employees from the Washington and Bedford plants also attended.*[/align][align=center] [/align][align=center]*Bottlers present included...... BLAH BLAH BLAH( Nothing more to add here except a long lis of names I didn't want to type)*[/align]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 13, 2013)

What great history. Tks Gary


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## zecritr (May 14, 2013)

gary sent me these so thanks to him for the Views


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## cokebottle1916 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks for the post. Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 15, 2013)

*Upside Down Theory* ...

 The following might seem a bit farfetched at first, but because there is so little known about Gary's Ray A Graham / Coca Cola bottle, I suppose anything is possible at this juncture, including a few wild ideas like mine.

 On Page 8, post #149 and #150 of this thread, members celerycola and fer_de-lance posted pictures of the Graham logo showing an upside down bottle. But what they didn't emphasize, (and in fer_de_lance's picture is blurry), is where it says at the bottom of the logo ...

 "Blown Upside Down"

 The explanation for this is because Joseph B. Graham (who was one of the three Graham brothers) and Frank R. Miller, invented a bottle making machine ...

 Patent Number 1,189,811
 Filed June 2, 1910
 Patented July 4, 1916

 http://www.google.com/patents/US1189811?pg=PA5&dq=1,189,811&hl=en&sa=X&ei=p1eSUdmbHOnX0QGupYDYDg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=1%2C189%2C811&f=false

 ... that molded bottles "upside down."  

 For one reference to this, scroll to Page 3 of the following Bill Lockhart article "A Tale Of Two Machines" under the subheading of  "The Graham Entrance."

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/TaleofTwoMachines_BLockhart.pdf

 Another, more detailed, reference to this can be found in the following article by Marg Iwen.

 http://www.fohbc.org/PDF_Files/EvansvilleGlassCo.pdf

 Page 64 ~ Subtitle "New Tenants Fill Old EGC Buildings" where it says, in part ...

 "Joseph Graham successfully eliminated the weak point between the shoulder and the neck of mechanically blown bottles by blowing them upside down, causing glass to flow toward the weak point."

 ~ * ~

 Now to my ...

 "*Wild Theory*"

 Is it possible when Ray A. Graham designed the so called Coca Cola prototype bottle for the 1916 bottlers convention, that he had the upside down bottle making machine in mind? Notice in the inverted patent image below that ...

 1.  The base appears to represent a "flowing into" feature.
 2.  There is very little or no pronounced shoulder.
 3.  The neck is extremely short and almost nonexistent.

 Maybe I'm just crazy. But then again, maybe not. Who can say for certain what influenced the design for the Ray A. Graham bottle?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 15, 2013)

P.S. ~

*If* the bottle was influenced by the upside down machine, then Ray A. Graham *might* have believed he had developed the ultimate, almost undamageable bottle with no weak points.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 15, 2013)

More *upside down* Graham logo/info links. Plus the fer_de_lance picture from Page 8 with the blurred "Blown Upside Down" wording.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=c69RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=graham+bottling+blown+upside+down&source=bl&ots=WVMQPP1xeu&sig=JuTo2Qa8LGkLkp2orliEf79muEI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqqTUcT5GfPO0QGioIAg&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=graham%20bottling%20blown%20upside%20down&f=false

 http://books.google.com/books?id=AzEyTU_S8EUC&pg=PT34&lpg=PT34&dq=graham+bottling+blown+upside+down&source=bl&ots=BZKDct3nZ8&sig=XVaOWgx3ktMwXh08xgyUaLaM0KY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WqqTUcT5GfPO0QGioIAg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

 http://books.google.com/books?id=duk1AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA97&lpg=RA1-PA97&dq=graham+bottling+blown+upside+down&source=bl&ots=CoebkRqqP_&sig=4LoQ08VgJ1QqQgf93cojpxJlGnk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4qqTUfDTKIPL0gHzt4D4DA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=graham%20bottling%20blown%20upside%20down&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 15, 2013)

Just for the record ...

 I was curious as to what days in January of 1916 the Coca Cola bottlers convention was held and found the following, which, if accurate, indicates the opening day was ...

*Monday ~ January 3, 1916*

 January 4, 1916 Atlanta Constitution Newspaper Article ...

 Which in part says ...

 COCA-COLA DELEGATES PLAN 1916 CAMPAIGN 
 Opening Meeting Monday Called to Order by Sales Manager S. C. Dobbs. 


 http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/ajc_historic/access/556937732.html?dids=556937732:556937732&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&date=Jan+04%2C+1916&author=&pub=The+Atlanta+Constitution&desc=COCA-COLA+DELEGATES+PLAN+1916+CAMPAIGN&pqatl=google

 1916 Calendar  ~ January 3rd was a Monday and the 4th was a Tuesday ...

 http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/?year=1916&country=1

 But I'm not certain (yet) as to how many days the convention went on - my guess would be about a week ... ???

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

I purchased the following two newspaper articles for $5.95 each. They were received in a pdf format which I then printed and saved for my files. I searched the first two weeks of January 1916 but these were the only articles during that time period related to Coca Cola. Even though the articles do not disclose any specific information regarding the selection of a new bottle design, nor who the contenders were, the first artice does seem to hint at something important on the convention schedule where is says ...

 "An interesting feature on the convention program is an address to be delivered by S. C. Dobbs, advertising manager of the Coca-Cola company"

 The articles also provides us with a little more information than we knew before, including where the convention was held and for how long. In all of my previous searches, the two articles are the only results I have found that are actually from that specific week, (as opposed to historical documents and book references that were recorded many years later). 

 From ...

*The Atlanta Constitution newspaper
 Monday ~ January 3, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

From ...

*The Atlanta Constitution newspaper 
 Tuesday ~ January 4, 1916*


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## zecritr (May 16, 2013)

Interesting doesn't even give any kind of hint that there was to be a design contest.

 of course it prbably didn't seem like to big a deal at the time,wasn't really till a few years later when it really began to take off,that people wold have begun to really see how important that convention was.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

This postcard is the earliest picture of Hotel Ansley I could find. 

 Dated on the back ...

*December 11, 1914*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

Back ... 

 Notice the date on the bottom/left

*Dec 11, 1914*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

Even though this picture is dated 1942, it is described as ...

 The Hotel Ansley *Ballroom*

 This is the only picture of the ballroom I have been able to find so far and was where the Coca Cola contour bottle (as well as the Graham bottle) were voted on in 1916.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

The 1916 newspaper articles mentioned the following two names. Here's a little more about them ...  

*Judge John S. * (John Slaughter Candler)

 http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/campbell-cannington.html#019.39.35

 Candler, John Slaughter (1861-1941) â€” also known as John S. Candler â€” of Atlanta, Fulton County, Ga. Born in Villa Rica, Carroll County, Ga., October 22, 1861. Democrat. Superior court judge in Georgia, 1896-1902; justice of Georgia state supreme court, 1902-06; delegate to Democratic National Convention from Georgia, 1912. Methodist. Member, Knights of Pythias; Odd Fellows. Died in Fulton County, Ga., December 9, 1941 (age 80 years, 48 days). Burial location unknown.

*S. C. Dobbs* (Samuel Candler Dobbs)

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Candler_Dobbs


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

Because its doubtful I will ever find an original item related to the 1916 Coca Cola convention in Atlanta, I decided to purchase this postcard instead showing the lobby of the Ansley Hotel. It will serve as a little momento to this thread. I am not a postcard expert, but I'm hoping it will date to the early teens. The only thing I know at present is that the Ansley Hotel was built in 1913, so the card can't be any earlier than that. Wouldn't it be a hoot if the picture on the card was taken in 1916 and shows individuals who attended the Coca Cola convention?

 Bob

 [ Front ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

[ Back ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 16, 2013)

I haven't been able to precisely date my postcard yet, nor who is pictured in it, but I did find references for the manager "William R. Secker" listed between at least 1914 and 1917. So its certain that Secker was the manager of the Ansley Hotel during the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention.  ( I currently do not know how long Secker served as manager ).

 Below is a Atlanta Constitution newspaper article regarding Secker's promotion from assitant manager to full manager.  

 If there are any postcard experts among us, please help me date my postcard. I researched the name (I. F. Co. Inc.) but haven't found anything specific yet.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 Atlanta Constitution ~ Dated ... *July 2, 1914*


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## zecritr (May 17, 2013)

VeryCool postcard


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## epackage (May 17, 2013)

In 1915 cards in the US went to white borders Bob, so 1913-14 seems logical...


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## epackage (May 17, 2013)

Card was made in 1915.... right at the transition to white bordered cards...[]


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## cokebottle1916 (May 17, 2013)

I said it once, I will say again, Thanks for all the history on my family and linking Wilbur Kurtz Jr. to his visit in Jasper Indiana. The card I have From Wilbur that states, (AS REQUESTED.  From Wilbur G, Kurtz, JR. and was with the Most desired  bottle in the world, could only be (he wanted the bottle). Well he didn't get it. I have decided I will keep the bottle till someone who wants this bottle more than me and can grasp the history and the mystique the bottle has. I looked at the bottle Thursday Am. before it was moved to a secure location, all I could say was the same everyone else has said. WOW!  The bottle was sad being placed in a bank box. The bottle has it's own personality. The same as any one of a kind piece of history. It needs to be displayed. It knows how to shine, and it stands  proud for everyone. I showed the bottle to the gentleman at the bank and he took a step back and you would have swore he saw a ghost ,and he didn't know what he was looking at. But that is the same reaction as everyone that has seen the relic. Well thanks again. The bottle is gone. All locked up for the time being. When it come out, I hope the Whole World can see it. My hope is that this artifact with all the history will someday be displayed at a Museum for everyone to see.  Thanks .


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

Thanks again to everyone for all of the helpful information and interest in this thread. I truly hope that Gary's amazing bottle eventually sees the light of day again so it can shine for all the world to see and enjoy.

 Regarding my Hotel Ansley postcard, Jim/epackage is right - it was made in ...

*1915*

 If you scroll back and take another look at the backside of the postcard you will notice two revealing details ...

 1. The code at the top ... *R-58376*
 2. The wording down the center ... *C. T. PHOTOCHROM*

 The C. T. stands for ... *Curt Teich*
 The R-58376 is a Curt Teich code for 1915.

 The Curt Teich code numbers for 1915 are 54000 thru 61999

 Here's a Curt Teich link for future reference and identification ...

 http://www.lcfpd.org/docs/teich_guide_dating.pdf

 So as it turns out, my postcard is not directly related to the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention but is close enough for me to serve as a souvenir of this thread.

 Speaking of souvenirs, I also just purchased the postcard shown below. At least this one has the words Coca Cola on it. The description said it was from 1913 but there was no picture of the backside to confirm the date. I'll check it out when I receive it and let you know.

 Later,

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Prior to this thread, I wonder how many people/collectors knew that the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention where the Root/Dean bottle won the contest was held at the Ansley Hotel? I didn't! I'm not saying I take credit for discovering this, but I do think it is an interesting aspect from a historical point of view. Everyone who lives in Atlanta, Georgia has probably known this forever. ( I believe the hotel was demolished in 1973 ). 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

Hmmm / Very interesting ...

 Did you know that Coca Cola founder Asa Candler *bought*/*owned* Hotel Ansley in 1918? I didn't know it either until just now.

 Bob

  http://books.google.com/books?id=Y3vmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA54-IA17&lpg=PA54-IA17&dq=asa+candler+ansley+hotel&source=bl&ots=AqzyCwtznW&sig=MnSAS5JTl4IVj1jZ_fMyIx4mmyA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9GeWUdK4FeX10gGwiYHoBg&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=asa%20candler%20ansley%20hotel&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

Just for the record ...

 According to the information on the following links, Hotel Ansley was built in 1913 and demolished in 1972 or 1973.

 Notice in the Wikipedia link that it shows a picture of the same postcard I purchased on eBay this morning. Also notice that the picture indicates a date of 1912 and yet they clearly state the hotel was built in 1913. In any event, it appears the postcard I purchased *might* be the very first one of Hotel Ansley, which I think is pretty cool.

 Bob  

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Ansley

 http://album.atlantahistorycenter.com/store/Products/86332-ansley-hotel.aspx


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## epackage (May 17, 2013)

It would be nice if a Coke historian who had some details regarding the bottle competition could be found and asked to chime in...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> It would be nice if a Coke historian who had some details regarding the bottle competition could be found and asked to chime in...


 
 Jim ~

 I agree! 

 I'm not sure if the entire building pictured below is of Hotel Ansley or just the far end of it, but whichever the case, notice the Coca Cola in the window on the corner. The picture is described as being taken in circa 1918, which would have been about the time that Asa Candler owned it. It would be interesting to know if the window sign is for a soda fountain or just advertising that Coca Cola was served at the hotel?


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 17, 2013)

*Sub-Summary ...*

 Here we are on page 13 and still don't know who the other nine contenders were. But I just gotta believe that *Chattanooga Glass* of Tennessee was one of them. After all, they were one of if not the first Coca Cola bottler and made tremendous quantities of the classic â€œhobbleskirtâ€ shaped bottles, and the â€œC in a circleâ€ is often seen on the side or the base of these bottles.

 So far, the bottle patent pictured below is the only one I have been able to find that is in any way related to Chattanooga Glass, but it's dated 1927. 

 Bob


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## zecritr (May 17, 2013)

looking at the post card with this pic of,it's definitely down the street to the corner,not shown in the postcard,down to the left in the postcard.


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## cokebottle1916 (May 18, 2013)

What I am about to say is total speculation. By know we all agree there was a contest. Could it be the Glass Manufacturing people were told make one bottle, but they could make several styles to put in the contest. Could it be the Root Co. went ahead and made several Prototypes and Graham and others only made one? The reason, I say this is I was a Manufacturing Sales Rep. for several years, and when we made prototypes we only made one. As we revised the sample we always destroyed the previous one. (We didn't want it to get in the wrong hands). If the project  was given to a competitor we got rid of the sample and all drawing. Another reason for one bottle is the cost. Samples and molds take away from production time, and from what I have been reading the glass manufacturing was in there haydays in the early 1900's. Remember I am thinking aloud. Could it be because Root was a large Mfg.Company. they made just one sample but  several of that one, because they could afford the cost, and Graham and others were smaller and just made one prototype because of the cost? Knowing Coca-Cola I am sure all the Glass Co. were instructed never make the bottles that were not chosen in fear of selling to the competition. Could you imagine telling Coke's competition we are making the loosing bottle that Coke did not choose but you can buy the bottle and imitate Coke. Do you think that would happen? Probably not.  I read where two Root bottles were found in the bottom of a locker and one was given to Wilbur Krutz Jr. I have read were that is about the time Wilbur was in Jasper Indiana. visiting my Grandfather and was he requesting the bottle, like my card says? Remember, as we have all concluded, thanks to all the History and digging for information on the Graham bottle it was the only one to make it out of the contest expect for the Root bottle. There are two Root bottles that we know of. I still say the Coca-Cola Co. bought the Root prototype at the auction last year but we my never know. At the present time the Graham Bottle is tucked away waiting to make an appearance at the Coca-Cola Collectors Convention In Charlotte NC. Who knows what will happen. I feel it will have a new owner buy than  but only time will tell. I have found out this is a great place for information. YOU GUYS ARE GOOD!!! At this time The Graham Bottle has to be one of the Rarest Coca-Cola artifacts to be had. Am I wrong? Thanks


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## epackage (May 18, 2013)

I don't really know Gary but I can tell you this, don't accept the first offer you get at the convention, I have a feeling there's gonna be many high dollar offers coming your way in Charlotte... Jim


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 18, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> Could it be the Root Co. went ahead and made several Prototypes and Graham and others only made one?


 
 Gary ~

 I'm not sure if you mean several of the "same" prototype or several "different" prototypes, but I do know (according to the Dean book "The Man Behind The Bottle") that the Root company made "about a dozen" of the same prototype but that "only two survived." And those two were placed in Earl R. Dean's locker where they remained "for about a year," after which he gave one to Chapman J. Root and kept one for himself which he took home. Eventually the Chapman bottle was donated to the Coca Cola company by the Root family. I suspect the other glass makers who had entries also made more than one of the same prototypes because I believe it would be difficult to pour/mold only one bottle at a time in a ten or twelve mold bottle machine. But since I'm not a mold expert I could be mistaken about this.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Here's some more food for thought ...

 I wonder if the Coca Cola token pictured below had any influence on Ray Graham when he designed his prototype bottle? Compare the shape of the token to the shape of the bottle base which I will post a picture of on the next page.

 I haven't been able to precisely date the token, but because it features a straight-sided bottle on the back I think it is safe to say it pre-dates the 1915 contour/hobbleskirt bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 18, 2013)

Graham Bottle Base ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 18, 2013)

P.S. / Correction

 I just referenced the Dean book and it states that Earl R. Dean only carved / hand made *one mold* for his prototype bottle and that it only took him 24 hours to complete it. And from that *one mold*, about twelve bottles were made. To this day no one knows what became of the mold itself.

 Bob


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## cokebottle1916 (May 18, 2013)

Bob: Do you have that token? It sure does look like the bottom of my Graham. Gart


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## cokebottle1916 (May 19, 2013)

Sorry trouble spelling ....Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Gary ~

 I don't own the token and found the picture on the Internet. But there is one currently on eBay with a Buy It Now for $19.95 or Best Offer ...

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/271201345532?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 I have tried to research it but not sure yet about the slogan "Betty Says." However, I do believe it was exclusive to Atlanta, Georgia.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Compare this Graham bottle patent ... 63,365 / 1923 ...


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## cokebottle1916 (May 19, 2013)

Thanks. Found it. Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

... to this bottle I recently acquired. 

 I did a comparison and they are almost identical. The reason I say "almost" identical is because my bottle is embossed on the heel with patent number 49,729 and not 63,365. Plus, my bottle is also embossed on the heel with ... 4 L.G.W. 0 ... Which is a Laurens Glass Works mark for 1940.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Here is the patent for bottle number 49,729. Which is the number on my bottle but is different in many ways.  We agreed earlier they often modified their designs, but how do we explain such a huge difference? And why is my bottle embossed with 49,729 and not 63,365?


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Some possible answers are ...

 1.  Graham totally discontinued patent 49,729 / 1916 and re-designed it in 1923 with a new patent number 63,365.

 2.  Manufacturers were allowed to make bottles patented by other glass makers, such as in the case of my Laurens Glass Works bottle originally being a Graham patent design.

 3.  Maybe?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

The more I look into the "design" aspect of soda bottle making the more inclined I am to think that a lot of the glass manufacturers did not have their own "in house" designers but instead relied on bottle designs created by independent designers. I say this because of my inability to find more than one bottle directly related to such manufacturers as Chattanooga Glass, Laurens Glass, and others. Surely these glass makers made dozens if not hundreds of different styles of bottles. But where did they get the patent designs? Even when it comes to Graham Glass, so far I have only found a handful of different bottles. One exception to this seems to be Root Glass where Earl R. Dean got his start. According to the Dean book, Earl designed "hundreds" of different bottles. But show me just one reference where it states that companies like Graham or Laurens designed "hundreds of bottles" and I will stand corrected.

 Bob

 THE DESIGNERS

 "Bottle design became a competition between glasshouses. The bottle designers of the times had highly successful careers some of which spanned decades. Their names and faces are unfamiliar but their work survives them." 

 From:   http://www.bottlebooks.com/designer%20sodas/designer_soda_bottles1920.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Nor do I think the term "*Assignor*" means that that individual was employed by a single glass maker, but rather that he had the flexibility to design bottles for whomever he chose.


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

In other words ...

 Just because a soda bottle, whether it be an embossed deco or acl bottle, has a particular makers mark on it, I don't think it necessarily means that that bottle was "designed" by that particular maker. But rather that it was "made" by them but "designed" by an independent designer who the manufacturer simply purchased the patent rights from. 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Case in point ...

 My "Graham Patent" bottle that was "made by Laurens Glass Works." Laurens simply purchased the rights from Graham to produce it!


 Embossed Heel Marks ... 

*4 L.G.W. 0*

 and ...

*Pat. No.  49729*


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

I was doing some of my usual research (about four hours a day) and came across this reference ...

 The Indiana Historian 1993

 http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/coca-cola-coke-indiana-glass-bottle-152622027

 ... which referred to a 1916 magazine titled "Scientific American Supplement." The WorthPoint description indicated the magazine had some pretty cool pictures related to Coca Cola and Root Glass.

 I looked on eBay and sure enough not only found a copy of the supplement in question, but a bound volume of six issues.  So I purchased it for a total of $56.51. When you open the eBay link, scroll almost to the bottom and you will see the cover of the December 2, 1916 issue of the "Scientific American Supplement" that has the Coca Cola / Root Glass pictures and article.

 eBay / Original Scientific America Supplement / July thru December 1916

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/120324121304?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

 I'm hoping the December 2nd issue has some pictures that I have never seen before and possibly even some specific information related to the Root/Dean prototype. There might even be some interesting information in one or more of the other 1916 issues.

 I can't wait to receive the book and will share what it contains after it arrives. 

 By the way, the same seller has one more of the 1916 supplements for sale at the same price.

 Bob

 [  Front Cover ~ December 2, 1916  ]


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## epackage (May 19, 2013)

Cool find Bob, I look forward to seeing what turns up...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

Jim ~

 Thanks.

 But there is a possibility its the 1993 "Indiana Historian" that has all of the pictures and not the 1916 "Scientific American Supplement." However, that is a risk I am prepared to take. After all, its only money!

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 19, 2013)

P.S. ~

 In the meantime I am on the hunt for a 1993 edition of THE INDIANA HISTORIAN.


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## epackage (May 19, 2013)

This is a writeup I didn't see posted yet, if it has been I'm sorry for the repeat...

In 1915, the Coca Cola Company launched a competition among its bottle suppliers to create a new bottle for the beverage that would distinguish it from other beverage bottles.  Chapman Root, the company's president, turned the project over to members of his supervisory staff including company auditor T. Clyde Edwards, plant superintendent Alexander Samuelson and Earl Dean, supervisor of the bottle molding room.   

 Root and his subordinates decided to base the bottle's design on one of the soda's two ingredients, the coca leaf or the cola nut, but were unaware of what either ingredient looked like.  Dean and Edwards went to the Emeline Fairbanks Memorial Library and were unable to find any information about coca or cola.  Instead they were inspired by a picture of the gourd-shaped cocoa pod in the Encyclopedia Britannica which Chapman Root approved as the model for the prototype.

 Faced with the upcoming scheduled maintenance of the mold-making machinery, over the next 24 hours Dean sketched out and created the mold for the bottle.  Dean then molded a small number of bottles before the glass-molding machinery was turned off.

 Chapman Root approved the prototype bottle and a patent was issued on the bottle in November, 1915.  The bottle was chosen over other entries at the bottler's convention in 1916 and was on the market the same year.  By 1920, Dean's contoured bottle was the standard for the Coca-Cola Company.

 As a reward for his efforts, Dean was offered a choice between a $500 bonus or a lifetime job at Root Glass.  He chose the lifetime job and kept it until the Owens-Illinois Glass Company bought out the Root Glass Company in the mid 1930s.  Dean went on to work in other Midwestern glass factories.

 Earl Dean died in January, 1972


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## epackage (May 19, 2013)

Bob can you cancel your purchase of that supplement???


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## epackage (May 20, 2013)

...


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Bob can you cancel your purchase of that supplement???


 
 Member Jim/epackage just brought to my attention that the entire 1916 "Scientific American Supplement" is viewable online and does not contain the Coca Cola/Root information I was hoping it would. I took a close look at it myself and am disappointed but not enough to try and cancel my order nor send it back once received. I scrolled through various issues and saw some interesting stuff that I am interesting in reading. Plus, the supplement provides a glimpse into what the world was like in 1916, which I feel is worth the money I paid for it. Besides, I just got a $3,500 refund from the IRS so I am splurging and will probably make more purchases before the week is out.

 Here's the link Jim provided me with. Scroll to page 353 for the front cover of the December 2, 1916 issue. The accompanying article about bottle making is on page 360.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=dgA9AQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Scientific+American+Supplement%22+++1916&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ao6ZUcCKIsWo4APui4HwCw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=coca&f=true

 Thanks for the information, Jim. Its good to know but not a total loss as far as I'm concerned. Thus, the search continues for a 1993 copy of "The Indiana Historian." 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

*Life goes on ...*

 And speaking of research, I also came across this today ...

 American Druggist / 1916 / Cuba and Canada Reference

 "The Romance of Coca Cola"

 http://books.google.com/books?id=71cgAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA82&dq=the+romance+of+coca+cola+1916&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZGOZUbiZIdC40AGcm4HYCw&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=the%20romance%20of%20coca%20cola%201916&f=false

 Notice where it says ...

 "*Eleven* branch houses in the United States, two in *Canada* and one in *Cuba*."

 Now compare it to the the Dean book reference regarding "11 Contenders" ...

 http://books.google.com/books?id=_0TOKtTyS5MC&pg=PA29&dq=earl+r+dean+11+contenders&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gI6ZUYiiEvLE0AG71YCgAg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=earl%20r%20dean%2011%20contenders&f=false

 And then compare both of the above to the January 4, 1916 newspaper article pictured below where it mentions Canada and Cuba.

 Its probably no big deal but I still thought it was an interesting "coincidence?"

 Bob


----------



## epackage (May 20, 2013)

I agree Bob, there are alot of interesting things in there, I scrolled thru the whole thing. I learned that many books and magazines are available for free online after purchasing alot of Paterson books, there are people on Ebay selling 8 Paterson books on CD that I've paid a few hundred for... So now I always check to see what's what. But no harm no foul because there's a ton of cool stuff in the supplements.[]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

Jim ~

 Thanks again.

 And regarding the information you provided about the Root/Dean bottle, links have been provided to the book that that info came from (like in my last post) but it has not been copied/pasted yet like you did, which I like because it emphasizes it better. As I said before, I highly recommend the book and can't even begin to say how much information it contains.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

I'm also looking for this booklet ...

 "The Romance of Coca Cola" / 1916


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

.


----------



## epackage (May 20, 2013)

I found this blurb about the booklet Bob, I don't see a mention about the convention or the bottles but you never know...


----------



## epackage (May 20, 2013)

Another mention but still nothing regarding the bottles...


----------



## epackage (May 20, 2013)

Ad from 1915...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

Jim ~

 Thanks for posting the snippets and ad. Most of the references for the Romance booklet just say it was published in 1916, but I did a little additional research and found a couple of other references that referred to April and May of 1916, so I'm hoping it was published after the January convention and might contain some info. But finding a copy or someone who has one is another thing.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 20, 2013)

I was curious about the American Druggist use of the words "branch houses" and determined that it refers to Coca Cola syrup factories/warehouses that were strategically located around the country for distributing syrup to the bottlers. So it appears to be only a coincidence that there were eleven contenders at the convention and eleven syrup factories at the same time in 1916.

 Bob


----------



## Photon440 (May 20, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  fer_de_lance
> 
> the ink leaked out but glass pen looks to be undamaged.Any thought on how these pens worked?Were they functional?


 
 Glass pens are still fairly widely available, such as here:
 http://www.islandblue.com/store/product/12615/J.-HERBIN-GLASS-PENS-RED/

 Usually, they were the type of pen that you dipped in ink, rather than having their own reservoir.  Often used for calligraphy and art work.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 22, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Hmmm / Very interesting ...
> 
> ...


 

 I was curious as to how long Asa Candler owned the Ansley Hotel, which he purchased in 1918, and discovered he sold it in March of 1944 as this newspaper article indicates ...

 http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mNM0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=oE4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4127,8101055&dq=asa+candler+ansley+hotel&hl=en


----------



## Dragon0421 (May 24, 2013)

THe romance of coca cola booklet is in this advertising piece that i have, it must have been a pretty good size promotional item then. This was hung in a window in the store or fountain i have always assumed. Just thought i would share.


----------



## Dragon0421 (May 24, 2013)

close up of item


----------



## jblaylock (May 31, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> *Sub-Summary ...*
> 
> ...


 
 I have to say, this looks an awfully lot like the Pepsi "pinch" bottle.

 As a side note, even though I'm a Pepsi collector....this has been the most interesting read ever.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 31, 2013)

Josh ~

 Thanks for the compliment on the thread. Here's a Pepsi Cola "Pinch" bottle for comparison ... and it does look similar.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 31, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone


 
 Surf ~

 I meant to thank you earlier and reply to your picture/post but am just now getting around to it. I thought this side topic would be of interest for future reference regarding ... Asa Candler / When Coca Cola was first bottled / Grier's Almanac / Etc. ...

 Bob

 ~ * ~


 Auction / Grier's Almanac pictured below ...

 http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/10853063_1891-griers-almanac

 Video: Regarding the picture that surfaceone posted earlier ...

 http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/11/prweb10147177.htm

 Antique-Bottles.net: Refuting the 1891 Grier's date ... 

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-595311/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#595387


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (May 31, 2013)

On the link I posted I couldn't get the YouTube / Asa Candler video to open in full-screen so here is a direct link to it where you can ... 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-is1WP5hbg8


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB


 
 And if you eliminate the rick-rack embossing it looks even more like a Pepsi Cola "Pinch" bottle ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2013)

.


----------



## celerycola (Jun 1, 2013)

It doesn't look much like the actual patent drawing for the Pepsi pinch bottle which has the narrow shape and rectangular panel for the Pepsi:Cola logo. But why let facts get in the way of posting random, baseless speculation that will confuse newcomers to this page?


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2013)

P.S. ~

 Josh / Anyone

 Do you happen to know what the glass makers marks are on the Pepsi Cola pinch bottles and/or if they are embossed with a patent number? If they were made by Chattanooga Glass they should have "CHATT" embossed on the heel or base. It wasn't until about 1934 that Chattanooga Glass started using a 'C' in-a-circle for their mark. 

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## celerycola (Jun 1, 2013)

This would mean that Chattanooga Glass was making bimal bottles in the mid-1930's for bottling companies that ceased operation before 1910.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 1, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> It doesn't look much like the actual patent drawing for the Pepsi pinch bottle which has the narrow shape and rectangular panel for the Pepsi:Cola logo. But why let facts get in the way of posting random, baseless speculation that will confuse newcomers to this page?
> 
> ...


 
 Celery ~

 Because many bottles are known to have been modified with panels etc. added later to accommodate a particular brand. I don't consider it baseless speculation whatsoever when you consider that Chattanooga Glass was a huge producer of Coca Cola bottles and the fact that the patent in question is the only Chattanooga Glass related bottle to surface so far. Nor do I believe that newcomer's or anyone else will be confused by this course of research, especially if it produces another contending bottle from the 1916 convention. If you go back to page one you will notice this thread started out by my *speculating* whether or not the Graham patent was in fact the bottle that Jeff Dean initially brought to our attention. And now here we are on page 15 of one of the most complimented threads in recent months. And because I am a civil guy and not one to ruffle feathers, I acknowledge your opinion and respect it. Please help us out here by providing another Chattanooga Glass related patent. Surely there must be one out there somewhere.

 As for your second reply about mid-1930s bottles, If that's not confusing to newcomers then I don't know what is.

 I understand your point about preferring facts, but facts are not always available and more often than not it requires considerable research to sort thing out. *Please, please* do not soil this thread with negativity. It is still a work in progress that a lot of members have expressed their enjoyment in following.  

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## celerycola (Jun 1, 2013)

The only thing worse than ignoring facts is selectively choosing which facts to quote to support speculation and ignoring others. The Chattanooga design patent you propose as a Coke or Pepsi design has been thoroughly discussed here in this forum and members have identified it with only two bottlers, neither of which were Coke or Pepsi and both dating a decade after the Root Coke design was in use. Not to mention the actual Pepsi pinch design registered by the Pepsi:Cola Company -distinct from the Chattanooga design. There were a number of bottle designs patented during this period with pinched waist. Was the MIT-Che design in the Coke design contest? Blackberry Cola? Double Grape? Nu Grape? Bracer? Licht Mountain Dew? Why select one and ignore other, similar designs? There are people who believe something because they read it on the Internet. Presenting random speculation as fact will confuse newcomers as will the practice of opposing facts as "negativity". Burying the facts will not make the speculation true.


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 1, 2013)

Facts? Facts? When receiving accolades from the misinformed, they nothing to do w/ the subject.


----------



## jblaylock (Jun 2, 2013)

I was just stating an observation about that sketch and another similar bottle....let's just drop it.


----------



## celerycola (Jun 2, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Here's a Pepsi Pinch Bottle from a Glenshaw Glass advertisement and the patent drawing for the bottle.


----------



## celerycola (Jun 2, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Here are the Chattanooga and Glenshaw bottles side-by-side. Separate design patents were issued to unrelated owners two years apart.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 3, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

I only have a minute this morning and wanted to share the following to help clarify celerycola's recent replies where he said "two years apart" ...

 I'll be back later with additional comments.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Chattanooga Glass Company Bottle :
 Filed May 18, 1927
 Patented August 23, 1927

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD73288?pg=PA2&dq=73,288+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ybqsUbKwL7Gr4APCpIHoBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=73%2C288%20bottle&f=false

 Pepsi Cola "Pinch" Bottle :

 Filed August 20, 1929
 Patented February 25, 1930

 https://www.google.com/patents/USD80587?pg=PA2&dq=80,587+bottle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lbmsUYbhJ4qN0QHmkIC4Bw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=80%2C587%20bottle&f=false


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  jblaylock
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Actually that isn't the Pepsi bottle. I thought it was myself at one point; however, it is just similar to the peanut pepsi. I've actually owned this very bottle from Johnson City, Tennessee, and I'm still trying to figure out who was using this bottle there. The only information on the bottle was the town name on the bottom. One of my possibles is a Pepsi-Cola bottler which showed up for a short time and quickly closed, but there are other possibles as well. I do know this is in no way a Coca-Cola bottle. The link below takes you to the page I created for this very bottle, and my example of the bottle itself.

 http://tazewell-orange.com/mysterybottle.html


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## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> Here are the Chattanooga and Glenshaw bottles side-by-side. Separate design patents were issued to unrelated owners two years apart.


 
 Holy cow there's a green version? Where's it from?


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## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2013)

Here is the patent sheet for the Peanut Pepsi bottle.


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## morbious_fod (Jun 3, 2013)

The bottle in question.


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## celerycola (Jun 3, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> Holy cow there's a green version? Where's it from?


 Southwest of Bluefield WV


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## zecritr (Jun 3, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

that's just a cool bottle especially in both colors


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## celerycola (Jun 3, 2013)

Talk about your Pepsi Pinch imitators.







 These were used by an actual Pepsi bottler in Pennsylvania.


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## epackage (Jun 3, 2013)

We had a local pinch style here in North Jersey....


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## celerycola (Jun 3, 2013)

That's a Bludwine/Budwine bottle patented in 1918 and 1921. The company had been using the same shape bottle since about 1908 when it started in Athens GA.


> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> We had a local pinch style here in North Jersey....


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## morbious_fod (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Quit messing with my mind! LOL!


----------



## celerycola (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

I drew a line on the map to verify - almost due southwest of Bluefield.


> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Regarding what I said earlier about my additional comments pertaining to the so called Chattanooga Glass and Pepsi Cola "pinch" bottles, I would like to share this reminder that the side topic first came up because the Chattanooga patent was the only patent I could find related to that company, thus sparking my speculation that because Chattanooga Glass was such a huge producer of Coca Cola bottles that the patent might have been one of the designs in the 1916 Coca Cola convention. And then later, member jblaylock commented that it reminded him of the Pepsi Cola "pinch' bottle. And from there the topic evolved into a discussion of the various styles of "pinch" bottles, which is not an uncommon occurrence with threads of multiple pages and that have pretty much run there course. So in an attempt to put this thread back on course, I would like to share the following which I believe to be most interesting and might even lead to another contending bottle. But before I continue, please know that the following is also based on a certain measure of speculation and that more research is needed to determine whether or not it is a course worth pursuing.

 It involves a brief article which appeared in ...

 The National Glass Budget
 January 29, 1916
 Page Fifteen

 http://books.google.com/books?id=EfpYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT612&dq=National+Glass+Budget+H.+V.+Cunningham+Coca+Cola+Convention&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DO2tUbvhJ7S00AH_y4GwDg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA


 Wherein it says ...

 "T. S. Cunningham of the D. O. Cunningham Glass Co., Pittsburgh, was in Chicago the forepart of this week, in attendance at a meeting of glass bottle manufacturers. His son, H.V. Cunningham, returned home last Sunday from Atlanta, Ga., to which place he had gone to attend the annual convention of Coca-Cola manufacturers. The Cunningham factories are operating to capacity."

 ~ * ~

 Even though the article, which was published about three weeks after the convention, does not mention anything about a bottle contest, it does confirm that the D. O. C. Company  was represented there. Of course, so were a lot of other glass manufacturers and bottlers, but as to "specifically" who those others were who were in attendance, we can only speculate for the most part because there is so little information available to determine that. But here we have a "confirmed" attendee which I believe is sufficient evidence to warrant a search pertaining to bottles made by and/or for the D. O. C. Glass Company. I took a quick look around this morning and so far have not found anything, but if other members assist in the search we just might find something. And by "something," I mean possibly another contending bottle from the 1916 Coca Cola convention.

 Makers Marks / D.O.C.

 Dominick O. Cunningham Glass Co., Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (c.1882-1931).  A prolific producer of soda bottles, especially Hutchinson-style sodas (â€œhutchesâ€).  The mark seems to be seen primarily on handmade bottles manufactured (generally speaking) before about 1910

 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/#ABCDEF

 Thanks again to all ...

 Bob

 P.S. for Jim/epackage:

 Would you please perform your magic and crop/save/post the paragraph from the National Glass Budget article? Thanks !!!


----------



## zecritr (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> Dominick O. Cunningham Glass Co.,


D. O. Cunningham (1880-1931)
 Dominec Cunningham left the firm
 controlled by his father and uncles to start
 his own company in 1880. From the
 beginning, he was competing with his
 relatives in the beer bottle trade. The
 company incorporated in 1897, which may
 account for some of the controversy about
 the name (variously recorded as D. O.
 Cunningham, D. O. Cunningham & Co.,
 or D. O. Cunningham Glass Co.).
 Although Dominec died on March 26,
 1911, the company remained in business
 until 1931 (Ayres et al. 1980:13; Knittle
 1924:344; McKearin & Wilson 1978:156-
 157; Toulouse 1971:120, 163-164).
 There is some dispute about the final
 disposition of the company. Toulouse
 (1971:163-164) claimed the firm closed in
 1937. Creswick (1995:264) repeated the
 Toulouse date. McKearin & Wilson
 (1978:157), however, stated that the
 company was taken over by All-Pak in
 1931. Ayres and his associates (1980:14)
 stated that the company remained listed in
 Pittsburgh city directories until 1959.
 The confusion was clarified by the AllPak website (2005):
  All-Pak, Inc. was established in
 1958 through the combination of
 Cunningham Glass Company and
 Allied Can and Container Company.
 Cunningham Glass Company was a
 manufacturer of glass containers
 from 1849 to 1931. In 1931,
 Cunningham ceased manufacturing
 and established themselves as a
 distributor for Owens-Illinois Glass
 company. To achieve success as a
 glass container distributor, it was
 essential to develop competencies
 for all types of customers. An
 extensive inventory of containers of
 various sizes, shapes, and colors was
 built and maintained. In addition,
 the company competitively shipped
 full truckloads of containers directly
 from the manufacturing plant.

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/Cunningham_BLockhart.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Z ~

 Gracias' amigo. The "hunt" is officially underway. I just hope it doesn't turn into another wild goose chase.

 Bob


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> I drew a line on the map to verify - almost due southwest of Bluefield.
> 
> ...


 
 There is no way that thing is from Richlands, VA.


----------



## celerycola (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Get a map and draw a line from Bluefield, due southwest, for 650 miles. 


> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## epackage (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

T. S. Cunningham, of the Columbus Glass Co., Lancaster, O., came over to Pittsburg last Saturday and remained here until Tuesday evening, when he returned to the factory. Mr. Cunningham says that the Columbus concern is well supplied with orders; that it is getting out a good production, and the outlook all that could be desired.


 President Chas. Wandlass, of the Columbus Glass Co., Lancaster, O., who has been laid up with rheumatism for about five weeks, is now in an improved condition and expects to be on the job again in the near future.


 The Arter Paint & Glass Co., of Charleston, W. Va., has been incorporated with an authorized capital of $25,000. The incorporators are: John Y. Arter, E. M. Surber, B. T. Clayton, J. H. Nash, Jr., and George P. Alderson, all of Charleston.


 Augustus Senecal, Sr., aged 60, a window glass blower by trade, died at his home in Hartford City, Ind., on Friday of last week, following a protracted illness of tuberculosis. When the disease first asserted itself he was engaged at blowing. Thereafter he occupied a position temporarily as gatherer, and when fires were lighted in November of last year he went to Cedar Grove, La., but remained there only a short time. A widow and six children survive.


 The Rochester Tumbler Co., at Rochester, Pa., is at present operating two furnaces, and report business good and prospects favorable. In this factory several Rip Van Winkles are now carrying in, having displaced the boys in evidence prior to the advent of Pennsylvania's new child labor law. Mr. Runyen is greatly in love with the Brumbaugh-Lovejoy a la labor fakir legislatim now effective in the Keystone state.

 L. S. Cunningham, of the D. O. Cunningham Glass Co.. Pittsburg, was in Chicago the forepart of this week, in attendance at a meeting of glass bottle manufacturers. His son, H. V. Cun- ningham, returned home last Sunday from Atlanta, Ga., to which place he had gone to attend the annual convention of Coca-Cola manufacturers. The Cunningham factories are operating to capacity.  

 The Midwest Glass Casket Co., with headquarters at Wichita, Kans., has been organized for the purpose of manufacturing glass caskets. Names mentioned in connection with the enterprise are J. P. Miller and H. A. Eldridge, and it is stated that they are figuring on building a factory in the vicinity of Wichita. We have heard talk of this kind before.

 A Different Fish Story.

 J. Clarence Harvey, the Lambs' Club wit, is telling this story about elimination: The proprietor of a fish store had a new sign: "Fresh Fish for Sale Here." "Why say 'here'?" said the first cus"It's unnecessary." He painted out. Said the second customer, for sale'? Of course they're for He painted out two words more, 'fresh'?" said a third customer. "You wouldn't sell them if they weren't fresh, would you?" At last the sign read just "Fish." Along came a fourth customer. "What's the use of having that sign," he asked, "when you can smell them a block away?"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

*Glasshouses & Manufacturers
 of the Pittsburg Region
 1795 - 1910
 BY:
 Jay W. Hawkins
 2009*

 This book takes a minute to load, but when it does, speed scroll to page 149 for an interesting read, including pictures, pertaining to the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company. 1910 predates the 1916 Coca Cola convention, but the book is still worth taking a look at.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=uRa4LxMg8r8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Glasshouses+%26+Glass+Manufacturers+of+the+Pittsburgh+Region+1795+-+1910&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xXquUe62MYO88ASChYG4BQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Something happened to that link and various pages ended up missing. So try this one, but you will likely have to skip/scroll to page 149 ...

 http://books.google.com/books?id=rSl0niAD6KUC&pg=PA157&dq=D.+O.+Cunningham+Pittsburgh+Region&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0n6uUd7JOcbXrQGu24DABg&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=D.%20O.%20Cunningham%20Pittsburgh%20Region&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

I apologize for this but something crazy is happening during the copy/paste process. Anyway, once you figure it out the good stuff can be found starting on page 156.

 Bob


----------



## morbious_fod (Jun 4, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> Get a map and draw a line from Bluefield, due southwest, for 650 miles.
> 
> ...


 LOL! You didn't say how far away from there.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Note of interest ...

 On pages 5 and 6 of Bill Porter's book we find the following ...

 Page 5 ~ "Some bottle manufacturers who made mostly straight side coke bottles include the following marks:"

 Page 6 ~  "D.O.C. the mark of the D.O. Cunningham Glass Co., also in Pittsburgh, from 1882-1937. (I don't know of any hobbleskirts with this mark)"

 ~ * ~

 I'm not sure when the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company first started producing straight side Coca Cola bottles, nor for how long, but I find it interesting they seemed to have produced an ample supply of them and yet it appears they never produced the contour/hobbleskirt bottle. I wonder why? It would be easy to speculate at this point and assume one of the following reasons ...

 1.  They lost the contract.
 2.  They didn't want to invest in new molds.
 3.  They had a dispute of some kind with the Coca Cola Company.

 Or ...

 4. They got mad at the Coca Cola Company because the bottle design they entered at the 1916 convention didn't win.

 I am currently researching and could use some help in trying to determine the following ...

 1.  When the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company first started making straight side Coca Cola bottles, and for how long?
 2.  Anything of interest connecting D.O.C. and Coca Cola.

 If you have a Coca Cola bottle marked with D.O.C., please share a picture of it with us.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 Just for the record, the following is from Reggie Lynch's website ...

  http://www.antiquebottles.com/rl/coke/

 Coca-Cola / BUFFALO, N.Y.  
 Green tinted glass, height 7 3/4", BIM with crown top, shoulder embossed "TRADE MARK / Coca-Cola / REGISTERED" in unusual style, above base embossed "BOTTLING CO. / BUFFALO, N.Y.", above base on back embossed "D.O.C. 1213" (circa 1913), excellent condition with some stain and dings but no chips/cracks, first Coke I've seen in this style, item #C359, SOLD.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 5, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

I had this picture in my photo gallery but not sure when or where I got it. I titled it ...

 Coca Cola Bottle D.O.C. 1183


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 12, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water again, here I show up with another "shark sighting."  I'm still researching and trying to find an answer to the following question I posted earlier ...

*Why did the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company not produce any Coca Cola contour/hobbleskirt bottles?*

 There is ample evidence of D.O.C. marked *straight-sided* Coca Cola bottles, but not a single hobbleskirt that I am aware of. And please believe me, I've looked!

 If you consider yourself an advanced researcher and have a few tricks up your sleeve, finding an answer to my question might serve as a good challenge because I honestly believe there is an answer to my question out there "somewhere." But I guess I'm not an advanced researcher myself because so far I have yet to find the answer even though I continue to look.

 During the course of my recent research I came across this link ...

 http://xrl.us/bo9b9n

 ... which opens to page 11 of a 1924 article from a series of magazines published by the International Cork Company / Re-Ly-On Bottler. The magazine(s) contain a lot of interesting articles and pictures, many of which have references to various (A.B.C.B.) American Bottlers of Carbonated Beverages conventions.

 What I found most interesting about the information on Page 11 is the list of EXHIBITORS at the 1924 A.B.C.B. convention that was held in Louisville, Kentucky and where it list ...

 Coca Cola Company - Spaces 605, 607

 D.O. Cunningham Glass Company - Space 636

 Graham Glass Company - Spaces 307, 408 

 So here we have an example of all three companies apparently still in business in 1924 and still rubbing elbows with each other and yet ...

 1.  The D.O. Cunningham Glass Company was just a few spaces down from Coca Cola but never made a hobbleskirt bottle.

 2. The Graham Glass Company sold out in 1916 but was still represented in 1924.

 Anyhoo ~ Long story short ...

 If you have information as to why the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company never produced Coca Cola bottles after 1916-1917, please share that information with us.

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 12, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

P.S. ~

 In the 30+ years that I have been collecting and researching soda bottles, I find it interesting that, until just recently, I never once heard of ...

*Re-Ly-On Crown Bottle Caps*


----------



## epackage (Jun 12, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

My guess is they wanted too much money...


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## celerycola (Jun 12, 2013)

*RE: D.O.C.*

Lowest D.O.C. mold number I have seen on a Coca-Cola bottle. This circa 1904 Soda Water bottle is marked D.O.C. 13.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 14, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> My guess is they wanted too much money...


 

 Jim / epackage ~

 By "they" do you mean the "Coca Cola Company" wanted too much money, which I interpret as also meaning there was not enough profit margin for D.O.C. to make the new contour/hobbleskirt bottles. 

 Or ...

 By "they" do you mean "D.O.C." wanted too much money from the Coca Cola bottlers for producing the new contour/hobbleskirt, thus resulting in D.O.C. not getting any orders?

 ~ * ~

 As a side note regarding D.O.C's. stability during that era ... (Providing the information is accurate)

 Open the following link and then click on the *blue* "Page 158." And then read the paragraph which starts with ...

 "In 1912, ..."

 http://xrl.us/bo9z47

 Key phrases to look for ...

 1.  250 hands in 1920
 2.  exclusively making soda bottles
 3.  annual production was 800,000 gross of bottles
 4.  Like most successful companies
 5.  The large number of machine-made bottles attests to this transition

 Thanks.

 Bob

 P.S. ~  If the blue Page 158 doesn't work the first time, close it and try again.


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## epackage (Jun 14, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

DOC wanted too much money, overplayed their hand, and PO'd the folks at Coke and got the boot...


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## AlexD (Jun 14, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I had this picture in my photo gallery but not sure when or where I got it. I titled it ...
> 
> Coca Cola Bottle D.O.C. 1183


 


 Hope I'm not butting in too late... [&:]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 16, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

AlexD ~

 Thanks for sharing the pic of your bottle. It helps confirm the cropped image I posted.

 ~ * ~

 Additionally ...

 I realize that just because H.V. Cunningham (of the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company) attended the Coca Cola Bottlers Convention in 1916 doesn't necessarily mean that company entered a prototype design. But I still wonder why they never produced a Coca Cola hobbleskirt bottle? It could very well have something to do with them wanting too much in return for producing the bottles, and yet, even with that said, it in turn makes me wonder why they did produce Pepsi Cola bottles? 

 Check out the following and you'll see what I mean ...

 Bob

 ~ * ~

 D.O.C. / Domenic O'Connor Cunningham Glass Company

 1917 Ad

 http://xrl.us/bpaf6e

 1922 Ad  (Pepsi-Cola) (Whistle)

 http://xrl.us/bpaf6x

 eBay ~ 1923 Pepsi-Cola bottle ~ D.O.C. 

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1923-Pepsi-Cola-Bottle-DOC-VA-Script-Drum-embossed-vintage-soda-straight-/140974005800?nma=true&si=THZesP0R%252BB%252BOam3oXTKcCGe%252FmXU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 16, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Heel of 1923 Pepsi Cola bottle from eBay ...


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## epackage (Jun 16, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Maybe there was an exclusivity contract, Pepsi says we'll pay you X amount to produce bottles for us but you can't make bottles for Coca Cola...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 16, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Jim / epackage ~

 That's the best hypothesis I've heard yet as to why D.O. Cunningham Glass never made a Coca Cola hobbleskirt bottle. 

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## AlexD (Jun 16, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*

Bob, I apologies for sounding so stupid but... Does the D.O.C mean it's rarer than others?


 [8|]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2013)

*RE: Pepsi Pinch Bottle*



> ORIGINAL:  AlexD
> 
> Bob, I apologies for sounding so stupid but... Does the D.O.C mean it's rarer than others?
> 
> ...


 

 AlexD ~

 I don't believe the D.O.C. mark is considered rare, at least not on pre-1917 Coca Cola bottles. Based on my findings, the D.O. Cunningham Glass Company was a large producer of straight-sided Coca Cola bottles but for some reason never produced a contour/hobbleskirt bottles.

 To refresh everyone's memories as to my reasons for researching D.O.C., it started when I discovered that H.V. Cunningham attended the 1916 Coca Cola bottlers convention, which led me to suspect his company might have entered a prototype design in the contest. And even though I have not found anything to indicate they did enter a bottle, I did discover that at about the same time (1916-17), the D.O.C. Company seems to have quit producing Coca Cola bottles altogether and I was just curious as to "why?"

 It could be, like Jim/epackage stated, the D.O.C. Company started producing Pepsi-Cola bottles instead and because of contract agreements could not produce both Pepsi-Cola and Coca Cola bottles at the same time. (Maybe / I'm still looking for information related to this possibility / And if anyone is aware of a pre-1917 Pepsi-Cola bottle with the D.O.C. mark, please share it with us).

 Another thing related to this that I discovered and thought was interesting can be found on the following link ... (Article by Charles David Head).

 http://www.fohbc.org/PDF_Files/KocaNolaHistory_CHead.pdf

 Scroll to Page 13 / Heading "Pennsylvania"

 Read where It indicates the D.O.C. mark is on Koca Nola (Hutchinson) bottles, circa 1905. Koca Nola was a huge thorn in Coca Cola's side during that era and it could be there was a dispute between Coca Cola and D.O.C. because of it. I believe Koca Nola was produced until about 1913 when they finally went bankrupt. "Maybe" by the time of the convention three years later there was still some tensions between D.O.C. and Coca Cola, at which time D.O.C. said to heck with them and stopped producing Coca Cola bottles. ??? (All of which is pure speculation on my part with no genuine evidence to support any of it ... at least not "yet.") 

 Bob


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## celerycola (Jun 17, 2013)

*RE: Just Speculating*

It would not seem to be a good business decision for DOC to shun Coke in favor of a contract with Pepsi at the time. Pepsi had financial difficulties during WWII related to the sugar market, lost many of their franchise bottlers and finally declared bankruptcy in 1923.

 Koca Nola was never a thorn in Cokes side. The president of Koca Nola was active in Atlanta civic affairs and worked alongside Asa Candler to boost their city. While Coke took many of their local imitators to court they never sued their biggest local rival Koca Nola. You will have to read Charles' book for the rest of that story. 

 There is a more likely reason for DOC not to make hobble skirt Coke bottles. They were one of the later firms to switch to machines for making bottles. They were best suited for small orders and probably could see no profit in paying Root a royalty to use the Root design with the small volume they could produce.


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## epackage (Jun 17, 2013)

*RE: Just Speculating*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> There is a more likely reason for DOC not to make hobble skirt Coke bottles. They were one of the later firms to switch to machines for making bottles. They were best suited for small orders and probably could see no profit in paying Root a royalty to use the Root design with the small volume they could produce.


 Great insight Dennis...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 17, 2013)

Hey Jim ~

 I hope you don't mind, but I like celery's idea better than either one of ours about Coca Cola vs. D.O.C. I wonder if a guy could find what the average price of producing hobbleskirt's was for various glass makers in the late teens and 1920s? I dread the thought of doing the research that might involve, but you know me, I like a good challenge.

 Plus, I changed the title of this thread back to the original so email notifications won't confuse subscribers.

 Bob


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## epackage (Jun 17, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Hey Jim ~
> 
> I hope you don't mind, but I like celery's idea better than either one of ours about Coca Cola vs. D.O.C.


 I concur


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## celerycola (Jun 17, 2013)

*RE: Just Speculating*

One topic I would like to see explored is how late were non-machine made bottles made. I have seen a few non-machine hobbleskirt Cokes and know of one bottler that used Hutchinson bottles as late as 1918 although they were likely bottles on hand. I have seen a few Hutches with contents embossed as required in 1914 by the Gould Amendment. A few books claim that no non-machine bottles were produced after 1903 when the Owens machine was invented but common sense (and documented companies starting business ten or more years later) prove it took years for hundreds of glass makers to complete the transition. 

 Who has the last non-machine soda bottle?


> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 18, 2013)

Of all of the articles ever written about the Coca-Cola hobbleskirt bottle, my favorite is the one by Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter, which I have provided a link to at the bottom of this reply. The article is definitely worth reading in it's entirety. I have read it numerous times myself and keep going back time and again because it contains so much information that I can't remember it all. Because this thread has born discussions related to various side topics, I invite you to read a portion of the article that relates to patent ownership and *royalties*. I believe it will help answer at least part of my question as to why D.O. Cunningham and other glass manufacturers shied away from producing hobbleskirts. Basically speaking, there appears to have been a lot of confusion going on at the time, not to mention it also appears that the Root Glass Company had a great deal of control at the time and apparently wanted a pretty big piece of the pie. This may be another one of the reasons why D.O.C. and others decided to call it quits.

 The portion of the article I am referring to starts on page 47 in the far right paragraph that begins with ...

 "Both Munsey (1972:58) and Dean (2010:33) stated ..."

*The Dating Game:
 Tracking the Hobble-Skirt Coca-Cola Bottle
 Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter
 2010*

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf


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## epackage (Jun 18, 2013)

Pretty much reenforces Dennis point regarding why DOC didn't make hobbleskirts, I have a feeling Dennis knows that document rather well...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 18, 2013)

Jim / epackage ~

 I posted the article primarily for those who might have forgotten about it and/or new members who never heard about or read it. I agree it reinforces celery's point, just in different words. 

 Bob


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## epackage (Jun 18, 2013)

Again I concur...[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 20, 2013)

*Interesting but confusing ...*

 I just discovered there were actually *two* Coca Cola conventions held in Atlanta, Georgia in *January* of *1916*. I'm still researching and trying to make sense of it, but it appears one convention was held for bottlers in general and another convention held for the *district managers*. You may recall my earlier post and the two ads that were dated January 2nd and January 3rd of 1916. Well, here are a couple of more ads I found, one dated January 19, 1916 and one dated January 21, 1916. Notice in the January 21st ad where it says at the bottom ... "A number of excellent addresses were delivered ..." and that one of them was given by Asa Candler entitled "Confidence in your product." Also notice in both ads that the convention was held at the *Piedmont Hotel* and not Hotel Ansley where the earlier convention was held. I intend to try and research this in more detail, but what I'm really wondering at the moment is ...

*Which of the two conventions was the Root/Dean prototype bottle voted on and selected?*

 Bob

*Atlanta Constitution newspaper
 January 19, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 20, 2013)

*Atlanta Constitution newspaper
 January 21, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 20, 2013)

*January 3, 1916* (Atlanta Constitution newspaper)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 20, 2013)

*January 4, 1916* (Atlanta Constitution newspaper)


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## celerycola (Jun 20, 2013)

Remember, there were two Coca-Cola businesses: the fountain syrup business owned by Asa Candler since 1892, and the bottling business started by Thomas, Whitehead, and Lupton in 1899. Candler had syrup plants across the US and Canada, with regionally organized sales managers and an army of salesmen who introduced the product, placed advertising, and took orders. This was a very different business than the bottling business that Candler disdained. Of course they had their own convention focused on the fountain trade. It was not until 1920 that more Coca-Cola was sold in bottles rather than at fountains.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 21, 2013)

I was scrolling through the following book and found something of particular interest ...

*Atlanta and Environs
 Volume II
 by: Franklin M. Garrett
 1969*

 http://xrl.us/bpbrqn

 It takes a minute for the book to load, but once it does scroll to Page 699 where it says that Charles Howard Candler (son of Asa Candler) succeeded to the presidency of The Coca Cola Company on *January 21, 1916*. That date was the day after the general managers convention and the same date of second article I posted. Although neither of the two articles mentions anything about a pending change in the presidency, it wouldn't surprise me if some type of announcement was made during the two day event.

 The book also contains a lot of other interesting Coca Cola information and pictures, with a good portion of it contained on Pages 119 thru 128. For more Coca Cola related info, scroll to the index on Page 1030 and click on any the blue links shown for Coca Cola.

 Here's a 1913 postcard of the Piedmont Hotel where the January 19th and 20th, 1916 convention was held. The hotel was built in 1903 and demolished in 1963 ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 21, 2013)

Here's the article from the second day of the convention ...

 ( This was the largest size it would allow me to post - I will try later to enlarge it )

*Atlanta Constitution ~ January 20, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 21, 2013)

Article enlarged in two parts.

*Part One ...*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 21, 2013)

*Part Two ...*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 21, 2013)

Notice in part two of the above article where it mentions the convention attendees visited the Coca Cola bottling plant which was located at 460 Edgewood Avenue, Atlanta, Georgia.

 I realize I'm speculating again, especially not knowing which of the two conventions the bottle competition occurred, but for all we know the bottle competition might have been held at the bottling plant and not at a hotel. After all, a "bottling plant" seems like a likely place to discuss "bottles." Plus, the visit to the plant was definitely a part of the convention schedule.  

 The following link will take you directly to a page containing some brief information about the Edgewood Avenue bottling plant. 

  http://xrl.us/bpbvvq

 This picture is undated, but obviously an early image of the plant which was destroyed by fire in 1925.


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## OsiaBoyce (Jun 21, 2013)

According to Lawerence Dietz, in his book 'Soda Pop The History.......America'

 Page 59.

  ........................in November, 1915, and submitted along with some 30 other entries, to a panel of seven parent bottlers.......................

 After almost a week.........chose..............the Samuelson design, which went into production late in 1916.

 Maybe you need to speak w/ him?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 22, 2013)

For everyone ...

 Using the link provided, please read pages 121 thru 123 of the book pictured below ...

 http://xrl.us/bpbwfs


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## cokebottle1916 (Jun 22, 2013)

I can add this to the thoughts above. I was always told My bottle was taken from a meeting where the contest was held. I was never told where the meeting was.  I have assumed with the reading here, I think the meeting would have been at the hotel. Thanks for all the information you keep digging up. Gary


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## OsiaBoyce (Jun 22, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> For everyone ...
> 
> ...


 
 Seems like this Dean feller could be or have been a bit biased.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  cokebottle1916
> 
> I can add this to the thoughts above. I was always told My bottle was taken from a meeting where the contest was held. I was never told where the meeting was.  I have assumed with the reading here, I think the meeting would have been at the hotel. Thanks for all the information you keep digging up. Gary


 

 Gary ~

 Thanks for stopping by. I too think the bottle competition was most likely held at a hotel but I keep searching for confirmations and anything else I can find that will eventually lead to who the other contenders were. Please let us hear back from you after you return from your upcoming trip.

 Here's another tid-bit of info I found regarding the two day convention held at the Piedmont Hotel on January 19th and 20th of 1916 ...

*The American Bottler ~ December 15, 1915 ~ Convention Announcements*

  http://xrl.us/bpb7ht


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

P.S.

 I find it a bit strange and wonder why the December 15th issue of The American Bottler didn't also mention the January 2nd, 3rd and 4th convention held at the Ansley Hotel?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

The following is a list of the specific words used in the various newspaper articles which describe the individuals who attended the two separate conventions. Perhaps there is a clue in the words that will help determine which of the two conventions the bottle competition took place.

 All from the Atlanta Constitution newspaper for 1916.

 January 3rd = Delegates - Guests
 January 4th = Salesmen and branch managers - Delegates - Visitors
 January 19th = District managers - Managers - Delegates - Bottlers 
 January 20th = Bottlers - Delegates
 January 21st = Bottlers - Delegates


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## celerycola (Jun 23, 2013)

*Speculation*

I pointed out earlier that there were two Coca-Cola businesses: the bottling business owned by Thomas, Whitehead, and Lupton, and the larger fountain business owned by the Coca-Cola Company under Asa Candler. The American Bottler printed what was relevant to their readers- the bottlers. I suspect you would find mention of the other convention in Soda Fountain Magazine and others directed at the retail druggist and confectionary trade. If you want reports on the fountain convention these magazines are available online.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S.
> 
> I find it a bit strange and wonder why the December 15th issue of The American Bottler didn't also mention the January 2nd, 3rd and 4th convention held at the Ansley Hotel?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

Meet ...

*Mrs. Ruby Marett*

 The sales*woman* who Asa Candler personally invited to attend the 1916 convention but who was unable to attend do to her father's illness. The article is too large to post in it's entirety but it tells the story about Ruby who at one time was one of very few women working as a salesperson for the Coca Cola Company out of Atlanta, Georgia. I'm not exactly sure which of the two conventions the article is referring to but suspect it was the January 2nd, 3rd and 4th convention because of the other article's reference to "salesmen."

 Here's a picture of Ruby from the article. I will post a snippet from the article on the next page.

*Atlanta Constitution ~ April 9, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

Snippet ...

*Atlanta Constitution ~ April 9, 1916*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

P.S.

 I forgot to mention that Ruby Marett was an *extract / syrup* salesperson. But whether she was connected to fountain syrups, bottling syrups, or both, I'm not sure. All I know at present (based on the 1916 article), is that Asa Candler was impressed with her.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 23, 2013)

Here's a portion of the Ruby Merett article that refers to *extracts*. It mentions "manufacturers" and "bottlers" but I'm not sure if that includes fountains as well.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 24, 2013)

*In Conclusion ... (For the time being)

 I am temporarily discontinuing my research on this thread because I have exhausted every resource I can currently think of to find confirmed/verifiable answers to the following questions ...

 1.  Who the other contenders were at the 1916 Coca Cola Bottlers convention where the Root Glass Company/Earl R. Dean design was selected as Coca Cola's new standardized bottle.

 2.  Which of the two 1916 Coca Cola conventions, (January 2nd thru the 4th, or January 19th and 20th) the bottle competition took place. 

 If anyone finds verifiable answers to either of the above questions, please share that information with us.

 Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this topic, and also to those who have been following it with interest.

 Respectfully,

 Bob 
*


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## cokebottle1916 (Jun 24, 2013)

Bob: You need to be commended for all the time and effort you put into the research to verify the information about not only my Coca-Cola Bottle, but all the interesting information you dug-up on my Great Grandfather along the way. So what I think you are saying is My 1916 Coca-Cola contest loosing bottle is "SPECIAL"? Thanks Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 24, 2013)

Gary ~

 Thanks.

 Your bottle is not only "special," it's ...

*Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious * [sm=thumbup.gif]

 Good luck. I hope it eventually sells for a million bucks.

 Bob


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## cokebottle1916 (Jun 24, 2013)

Thanks, I will let you know....Gary


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 24, 2013)

For anyone interested in doing additional research on this topic, here's an individual whose name I do not believe has been mentioned yet and might worth looking into. I have not researched him myself. 

 Meet ...

*Harold Hirsch*

 http://xrl.us/bpciym


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## celerycola (Jun 24, 2013)

It was Harold Hirsch who hired an army of Pinkerton detectives for Coca-Cola, sending them across the country 1910-1916. They were instructed to find druggists, confectioners, and mom-and-pop store owners selling anything other than Coca-Cola and threaten them with legal action from their multinational employer. When threats failed, they simply dragged the poor shopkeepers into the street and beat them up. 

 Harold Hirsch was the leading general for Coca-Cola (and likely the model for the protagonist in the only novel on Coca-Cola).

 If you want to know what was going on in the trenches in the Kola Wars you need to research Harry Nims. Harry was the brains and the brawn who actually led the legal battles for Coca-Cola in the courts. He was such an expert in unfair competition and trademark law that his book on the subject was the standard textbook in law schools for sixty years. 

 Harry Nims law files were sold by his family a couple of years ago and are in a private collection.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> For anyone interested in doing additional research on this topic, here's an individual whose name I do not believe has been mentioned yet and might worth looking into. I have not researched him myself.
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2013)

The primary reason I brought up the name Harold Hirsch is because of the letter he wrote (Dated April 26, 1915) which was sent to various members of the Coca Cola Bottlers' Association regarding a new bottle design. The following link also contains a number of other names that might be worth researching, which I haven't had time to look into. I bet one or all of those guys knew who the other glass manufacturing contenders were. 

*Power of the Contour ~ Chapter 8*

 http://xrl.us/bpcn2f


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## cokebottle1916 (Jul 27, 2015)

*Re:  RE: COCA COLA / 1915 PROTOTYPE / EARL R DEAN / RAY A GRAHAM*

Good Morning : Just wanted to say Hi. My bottle is tucked away nice and safe. As always much interest. Check it out on YouTUBE ( Worlds Rarest Coke Bottle). Ltr Buzz


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