# The vanishing middle class



## druggistnut (Feb 23, 2011)

I  am a retired public employee. WE are NOT the problem.
  Letter Carriers, Plumbers, Police  Officers, Teachers, Paramedics, Firefighters, Nurses, Road Workers etc.  are NOT the enemy. If youâ€™re jealous of our benefits, FIGHT FOR YOUR  OWN! Not against ours. 
 The RICH who CREATED this crisis are pitting  middle class families against each other. We LIVE here, PAY taxes, WORK  HARD & TRY to support our families too. 
 Bill


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 23, 2011)

Wow, not sure where this came from. Not something I said I hope?


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## bostaurus (Feb 23, 2011)

We like to blame the "rich" but the middle class seems to be doing a good job fighting each other all by themselves.


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## Jim (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm self-employed in small business, and not jealous of anyone. I have a lot of respect for police officers, firefighters and every other public employee who provides or has provided a worthwhile service. I don't see you as an enemy, Bill.

 The stark reality is that government at all levels has tried to do too much for too many years. The money is simply not there anymore. There is plenty of fault to go around- wasteful spending on unnecessary projects, mismanagement of funds by politicians and bureaucrats, poor planning, reliance on temporary and limited sources of revenue (and "projected" sources which never seem to pan out) and a thousand other reasons.

 The private sector has been tightening the belt for quite a while. State and municipal governments are far behind on this, because they could get away with it. Now, the game is up, the coffers are running dry, and all they have done is make the necessary corrections much more painful.  ~Jim


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## Wheelah23 (Feb 23, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Jim
> 
> I'm self-employed in small business, and not jealous of anyone. I have a lot of respect for police officers, firefighters and every other public employee who provides or has provided a worthwhile service. I don't see you as an enemy, Bill.
> 
> ...


 
 QFT


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## woody (Feb 23, 2011)

Yes, Jim pretty much summed it up.


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## CWBookAuthor (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm retired from the Federal government and trying to keep my head above the water. Now I'm handicapped as swell (2 strokes and a heart attack that almost took me away, oh, by the way, I AM NOT LOOKING FOR SYMPATHY). I spent those pre-retirement years in intelligence and publishing and I assisted the local police enforcement officers and my years were well spent. Now, I can't do anything to help my family. I really enjoyed the many years, but I still see a number of people complaining about the Federal retirees. It is really disgusting.

 Mike


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 23, 2011)

Sounds like change is in the air. Before something can be rebuilt it must first be torn down. Sort of like the mythical Phoenix bird who rose from his ashes. To see that we are indeed in the throws of change just watch the news regarding Egypt and Libya. Don't focus on what you don't want but focus on what you want. Remember, what you focus on expands. Remember too that the meek shall inheirit the earth. What we are going through now is difficult at times but hang on. After the storm comes the calm. That's where my focus is.


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## PrivyCheese (Feb 23, 2011)

At the risk of killing a thread like I do most of the time.... I feel I would like to chime in on the subject. My son is in law enforcement. He risk his life everyday, He is 24 makes almost $40,000 yr, with some outrages benifits. After two years if he took everyday off possible it would total to almost three months. Has a pretty good pension plan ( which he does not have to contribute to) Has excellent healthcare benifits. 

   What do I say? WTF! Its rediculus   thats what. I appreciate everything the police, fire etc etc do everyday but who do these people think pay for these wonderful benifits? Jim put it way more elequent then I ever could or want to. Unions have outlived their usefulness. Collective barganing? You know what my boss would say if I asked to collective bargin my pay?.....He would say, How do you want your pink slip? Personally or in the mail?

   I work in the construction industry, I am a flooring installer. Harwood floors, vinyl laminate etc. I work piece work. If I stop to drink a glass of water I stopped getting paid. If I need to go to the bathroom I stop getting paid. I just had to drop my health ins. because it went up to $170 a WEEK! Pension? HAHAHAHA only what I sock away, and at the rate of inflation that isnt very much. I often say that my last day of work will be the day I die. I have worked for the same company for 22 yrs. How much vacation time I have? ONE WEEK! thats it....no other benifits...na da...zippo am I complainig? Nope, I dont need no ones pitty either. Its my choice right? So for me to sympathize with teachers who are working 9 months a yr and getting excellent benifits and pensions....cant do it....wont do it.

   It isnt about class warfare its about me not haveing anymore money to pay taxes so they can earn more, have increases in benifits....enough is a enough. Am I jealous? absolutely not. No matter who you are someone has more....includeing Bill Gates. I own my own home and can buy a bottle once in awhile. All I ask is that I can keep the money I work so hard for. 

   Frankly, I dont understand what a union could possibly ask for in such a contract negotiation? Seems they up the anti every time a new contract comes up. Have some kind of demand regaurdless of what their members make. Its criminal...


   Who pays for it all?  The middle class.....me.....Sorry, but the well is empty...I am all tapped out.


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## NYCFlasks (Feb 23, 2011)

Yes, the middle class is under attack in this country from all sides.  Many are working with pay freezes (I am in year 4 of the same), yet prices continue upward.  I consider myself very fortunate in spite of it as our family has always lived far below our means, saving for the rainy day, which is here.
 Still, it is not easy.  In my area, property taxes are very high, I think this area is like number 12 in the Nation!  Mine are 8k on a 275k home.  One paycheck a month goes for them.  One take home paycheck a month.  25% of my take home.  My wife works part time, if she paid them, it would be everything she makes.  Then there are the sales tax, state income tax, all the taxes and "fees" on your utilities, adds up.
 Our elected officials will tell you, promise you, ANYTHING, to get you to pull the lever for them.  Sadly for many, the promises that they have made years ago are coming due now, and there is no money to pay for them, and at least here, nothing left to tax to get the money to pay for them.  So many problems have been "solved" over the years by kicking the can down the road, but we have come to the end of the road.  I remember the State fixing its budget one year by "selling" the states prison system to the state Dormitory Authority, who then issued bonds to "buy" the prisons, and leased them back to the state to use as prisons.  They did this because the state was up to its debt limit and could not issue more bonds to borrow its way out of trouble, but the Dormitory Authority, which is separate from the State could.  Stunts like that burned me up then, and still does now.
 For many in the middle class, if you ask me, "Always the Low Price" is the enemy.  Your employer is struggling to compete with overseas workers who get 60 cents an hour, so you can not get a raise.  Many are competing in some fashion with those who stand on street corners looking for work, what some call day laborers.  Guys who do roofing, drywall in my area have been creamed, no one in this region can even survive on 80 dollars a day.
 But if you live in a closet, get paid cash, you can.
 I could go on for hours, but it will only get my blood pressure up.  I think you get the picture.


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## coreya (Feb 23, 2011)

Im a retired police officer, contributed to my pension, paid my share of health insurance (was around 20 bucks a week)while working and since I was forced to retire because of an injury have seen my insurance costs go to 760 a month for myself and wife all with no cost of living. I have NO sympathy for the state workers who are bitching and complaining because they may have to contribute a small percentage to their retirement and pay a small amount for the health insurance. Almost every worker in the private sector has to contribute to retirement (at a much higher rate) and pay much higher preumiums for health insurance. The teachers in wisconson who called in sick to protest should be fired along with any other state employee that does the same. Just my 2 cents worth!!!
 forgot to add that the legislators in wisconson who fled the state to avoid their JOB should be impeached. these games have to stop or the only thing that will be worth anything will be 20 acres and a gun!!!


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## cyberdigger (Feb 23, 2011)

So... is this one of those "special threads" which starts off very interestingly and then a personal feud takes over and next thing you know it's been deleted?
 I really hope not...
 I thoroughly enjoy reading and writing about stuff like this, debating, sharing angles, and either agreeing, or agreeing to disagree.. lets keep our dinner jackets on here, shall we? []
 Later on, I'll tell you how an artist survives..

 ..we should all watch "Gran Torino" this week..


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## PrivyCheese (Feb 23, 2011)

The real culprit to all of this is entitlement programs.....ie Social security disability, welfare, medicade etc. I absolutely know that there are people who need and deserve these services. I dont begrudge them a bit. But I know six or seven people who collect SS disability and only one of them really derseves it. He was burned in a fire over 95% of his body. His eyelids and ears were burned off his face. The othe ones....pfffft One guy worked for the state, a juvnile justice facility.
 He walked in on a foriegn kid who was up on the sink cleaning he tail end....if you know what I mean. So this guy flips out and goes and gets a crow bar and proceeds to tear the sink off the wall. The state retires him with a disability...says hes nuts...WTF! I say you friggin idiot....your fired!

   Another guy says he to depressed to work...gets anti-depressant drugs....sells them on the street for an exhorbant amount of money. Before christmas he went to the doctors to get his script filled....the doctor was on vacation and the intern ripped him and told him he was a drug addict and he wasnt getting them...He was pissed because now he couldnt get money together to buy his kid christmas presents...He called his social worker and complained. Social worker called the intern and talked him into giving him his script....WTF!

   Another guy I know was a coke head....did coke for years....guess what?...Now has a bad heart....Got SS disability. Got 34,000 in back pay....took that money bought a boat went to Florida....and what else?....yup, more coke...A year and a half later....died....I guess God had the last laugh.

 It goes on and on, Another guy I know had a kidney transplant...very serious....I agree. Alonzo Mourning was back playing professional basketball a year after his....the guy I know? 11 yrs later he still isnt working. What did he do during this time? Had 5 kids! on the states dime WTF! SS cut his benifits, he b*^&%ed and moaned....said How am I supposed to get by? Says he cant work now, daycare for all his kids would be to exspensive. WTF!

   Was in a the grocery store, three people in line in front of me. Everyone of them were using a independence card (funny they named them that. How ironic) anyways, The woman in front of me had a cart over flowing. She checked out and I got thru my few items pretty quick. I went to my truck, who should be parked next to me? yup the lady in front of me with enough food to feed a third world country. And what kind of car was she putting her bags of plnty in?....A freakin' LEXUS....WTF!

   Bitter?....Not me...just pissed This thread has pricked an open wound.


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 23, 2011)

Being a small business owner and having a wife employed at a local college I can see both sides of the issue.As individual Americans living beyond our means sometimes,not budgeting money properly,and making poor choices is all about personal accountability which seems to be lacking quite a bit these days.We need to get our own houses in order before we can help anyone else.As for the Government to run efficiently it needs dedicated workers who are what their title says they are public servants.I want them to have the ability to earn a decent wage and be able to retire someday comfortably.The Rich who got that way through hard work are entitled to every penny they earn.Most of them attribute back to the economy through purchasing of additional properties,businesses and products anyway so although they are rich they are still fueling our economy.My wife has to now contribute much more to our health care plan through the college and the money contribution she is responsible for regaurding her retirement has increased dramatically.We realize it is so much better that she has to contribute a lot more to her benifits package then if she was out of a job alltogether.

 Some of the first unions in this country were the glass workers who worked under some tough owners and circumstances.These unions were needed to establish a working middle class.Today, Military personnel,Police Fire and Emergency workers Postal employees are the cream of the crop and deserve top pay for a very demanding job.Their benefits though are much more well off then the private sector and I feel they should pay more towards their own retirements then they currently do.Leave their salaries alone as most are reasonable to their crafts.With the in the red budgets a lot of states are facing now as the norm tough decisions have to be made and all of us need to sacrifice a little now to get through this mess we HAVE ALL CONTRIBUTED TO AND ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE TO FIX for future generations.Yes we are vanishing I agree but it is not the rich peoples fault it is our OWN.Stop passing the buck and become part of the solution.If everyone would pitch in it can be righted.With all the problems this country is facing it is still the greatest nation this earth has ever known.Americans are the most generous, and caring people in the world.We have helped more people and countries whether through military endeavors, charitys or other acts of kindness bar none.I am still a proud American and believe this can be fixed.


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## PrivyCheese (Feb 23, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Steve/sewell
> 
> Being a small business owner and having a wife employed at a local college I can see both sides of the issue.As individual Americans living beyond our means sometimes,not budgeting money properly,and making poor choices is all about personal accountability which seems to be lacking quite a bit these days.We need to get our own houses in order before we can help anyone else.As for the Government to run efficiently it needs dedicated workers who are what their title says they are public servants.I want them to have the ability to earn a decent wage and be able to retire someday comfortably.The Rich who got that way through hard work are entitled to every penny they earn.Most of them attribute back to the economy through purchasing of additional properties,businesses and products anyway so although they are rich they are still fueling our economy.My wife has to now contribute much more to our health care plan through the college and the money contribution she is responsible for regaurding her retirement has increased dramatically.We realize it is so much better that she has to contribute a lot more to her benifits package then if she was out of a job alltogether.
> 
> Some of the first unions in this country were the glass workers who worked under some tough owners and circumstances.These unions were needed to establish a working middle class.Today, Military personnel,Police Fire and Emergency workers Postal employees are the cream of the crop and deserve top pay for a very demanding job.Their benefits though are much more well off then the private sector and I feel they should pay more towards their own retirements then they currently do.Leave their salaries alone as most are reasonable to their crafts.With the in the red budgets a lot of states are facing now as the norm tough decisions have to be made and all of us need to sacrifice a little now to get through this mess we HAVE ALL CONTRIBUTED TO AND ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE TO FIX for future generations.Yes we are vanishing I agree but it is not the rich peoples fault it is our OWN.Stop passing the buck and become part of the solution.If everyone would pitch in it can be righted.With all the problems this country is facing it is still the greatest nation this earth has ever known.Americans are the most generous, and caring people in the world.We have helped more people and countries whether through military endeavors, charitys or other acts of kindness bar none.I am still a proud American and believe this can be fixed.


 

  Thank you, very well said....I only wish I could express my thoughts as elequent as some of you.


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## cyberdigger (Feb 23, 2011)

Me too!!


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## rockbot (Feb 24, 2011)

What I don't understand is, why are government jobs union to begin with? I thought unions were formed because rich business owners would pay their works peanuts with no benefits and long hours. I just don't get it I guess. Government jobs don't make money, they are public servants and get paid by our tax dollars.
 How much more taxes can we afford to pay before we all go bankrupt?

 I work for a private company and we haven't gotten a raise in 8 years. You know how much the cost of living has gone up in 8 years!
 My wife works at the University and had to take a 10% pay cut 2 years ago. I think we have sacrificed enough.[&:]

 I'm about to wake up from my American dream.[]

 Rocky


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## Plumbata (Feb 24, 2011)

Want more money?

 Convert that spare room in the basement, or your attic into a Patriotic Pot-growing operation! 2 ounces/cloned plant rotated and harvested 3 times a year, in a 200 square foot area (clones nurtured elsewhere) would  produce, oh, say, 20 pounds of quality seedless a year. Go sell that for 3K-4K/lb cash in the back alley late at night, then go to your day job in the morning!

 A 50 year old landscaping contractor I worked for several years ago suggested this, lol. Apparently he was getting 3,200/lb.


 []


 Realistically though? Use your noggin and come up with some good, creative, and sustainable ideas! A lot of money can be made buying and selling all manner of materials, the more esoteric the better. Make your own money; don't expect to get a good job with great benefits from someone else. Every week I see under-qualified jokers in public positions, wasting everyone else's money. Sure, it would be a pretty cushy job, but there is a ceiling to how much you could make living that life. I don't want to live like that. Do your research, find what has a 100% or more profit margin, buy it, repackage it if necessary, and sell it. I made over 10 grand on the side last year selling a single kind of legal material with a profit margin, after fees, of about 900%. It isn't impressive by any means, but I was just getting my feet wet.

 I am arranging the purchase of a trial order of a few machines from china, at the cost of about 1,055 each with freight, which sell for 3,000 each on eBay. That alone has been an 80,000 - 100,000K/year net profit market for the past few years, and it is_ sorely_ underdeveloped.  Another lucrative product is in-transit from China right now.

 In my extensive research files I have established sources for 5 other well-researched materials that each alone have been making 30-80K/year net profits for several years, and several dozen more which have viable 2K to 29K/year net profit markets. A few dozen more on top of that which have no established markets, but intuitively I know they would be moderate-to-great successes if marketed decently (like what I made 10K off of last year). The next few years will be very exciting, personally anyway.

 If I can do it, so can you! Quit worrying about what you _can't _control and focus on what you _can_ improve for yourself and your own situation. This country is pretty screwed right now, but what can we few individuals do about it? Waste more potentially productive man-hours on the internet not accomplishing anything? Nothing in our lives is set-in-stone, good or bad, and there will never be a time in your life when there isn't at least one door to pass through leading to self-improvement; economically, socially, psychologically, or physiologically. The real task is maintaining a mind that is open enough to see and appreciate the doors of positive potential when they materialize, the mustering of the will and bravery you need to pass through them, and the strength and foresight needed to preserve what you already have. Take your life into your own hands, don't entrust it to the inefficiencies of diseased larger powers!

 An obscene "need" for modern, wasteful western comforts and entitlements has sucked away much of the the material productivity and long-term economic viability of this country, and yet once we have tasted the former we all cling to such luxuries as if they are our birthright, even with the knowledge that they will ruin this nation. It is ana-logous to people escaping from a slowly-sinking ship into an over-populated lifeboat, salvaging from the ship all their riches and possessions and entitlements and filling the life-vessel far beyond capacity, causing it to capsize, and thus destroying all the hopes which remained for themselves, let alone everything else they were desperately trying to cling to in their frenzied attempts to satisfy their shortsighted selfishness.

 Y'all have fun with that, I'm voting for Ron Paul. []


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## diggerdirect (Feb 24, 2011)

> An obscene "need" for modern, wasteful western comforts and entitlements has sucked away much of the the material productivity and long-term economic viability of this country, and yet once we have tasted the former we all cling to such luxuries as if they are our birthright, even with the knowledge that they will ruin this nation. It is ana-logous to people escaping from a slowly-sinking ship into an over-populated lifeboat, salvaging from the ship all their riches and possessions and entitlements and filling the life-vessel far beyond capacity, causing it to capsize, and thus destroying all the hopes which remained for themselves, let alone everything else they were desperately trying to cling to in their frenzied attempts to satisfy their shortsighted selfishness.
> 
> Y'all have fun with that, I'm voting for Ron Paul.


 
 Hec with Ron Paul, I'll cast my vote for you!  []

 Al


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## cowseatmaize (Feb 24, 2011)

> Ron Paul


I don't care what his middle name is, he's still a politician.[]


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## rockbot (Feb 24, 2011)

One of my side jobs. Picking up hundreds of gallons of food waste a week, cooking and feeding pigs for market.


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## RED Matthews (Feb 24, 2011)

Wow this is a depressing thread.  This reply is for Mike Russell mainly; but the world is in a calamity condition at this time.

     Mike I know where you are in life.  I am also in nearly the same bad way, except my problems are not the heart â€“ there is a lot of problems relative to my diabieties, with neuropathy and kidney/bladder/stones and prostate.  Just factors of aging.  I am still enjoying the books I bought from your library.  I think of you often.  When I checked into this thread, your entry caught my eye.  Thanks for being a friend.  

 I will have to go back and read what this whole thread has covered.  I was afraid of depression when I saw the heading of the thread.  "God Bless America"  we are better off that many in the world.  RED Matthews

   [/align]


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## diggerdirect (Feb 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cowseatmaize
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I read somewheres about limiting politicians to two terms..., 1 in office & 1 in prison  []


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## bostaurus (Feb 24, 2011)

That's the way we did it in Louisiana...except for Edwards...he was more of a office-prison-office kind of guy.


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## Plumbata (Feb 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  rockbot
> 
> One of my side jobs. Picking up hundreds of gallons of food waste a week, cooking and feeding pigs for market.


 

 That right there is a really awesome thing you are doing for yourself, and for your country in an abstract way. By diverting usable food energy from the landfill, where it would fester and be wasted, and channeling it towards a productive enterprise you are (directly or indirectly):

 Creating and nurturing valuable livestock
 Creating rich animal manure fertilizer
 Decreasing the workload of garbage collectors
 Lengthening the life of the landfills
 Having fun (maybe?)
 Making money!

 It is too bad that more people aren't taking such a sustainable and proactive approach towards self-improvement.

 I often wonder how much food is wasted, especially in big cities or rich areas? I believe that I read a figure stating that half of the calorie value of the food purchased by Americans every year is thrown away. What waste! All that food could feed tens of millions of stock animals, or just as many or more starving people in less fortunate geographic regions. Without fail, at the end of quarters or semesters I see college kids throw away entire pantries of nonperishable foodstuffs, when just a few blocks away they could donate it to the homeless. Waste like that occurrs on a far larger scale by large businesses every day. 

 Such waste and excess is the modern "American dream." The greatest generations of Americans; imbued with national pride, frugality, and an interminable work-ethic are slowly fading away and getting replaced by my generation and subsequent ones; people who were born and raised on entitlements and the expectation that they can do the bare minimum, get paid, then go home and watch TV or play video games for the rest of the day. The memory of our nation's greatness is slowly being replaced by a preoccupation with the inane folly of pampered western materialism and social-image enhancement, or just plain lazyness. PrivyCheese provided some splendid examples of the base greed which is slowly destroying this country. It is sickening. Could I scam the gov't into getting food assistance and other handouts? Sure I could! But the potential to do so doesn't make it right, even if many others are working very hard at doing not much at all.

 Sure, rich people sometimes do deserve every penny they earned, but it was this country which provided the foundation for their success. Should they, in this present economic and political situation, not owe a debt, either financially or otherwise, to the structure which served as the trellis upon which they grew, flowered, and succeeded, or rather, as is often the case, should they be allowed to happily squirrel away their millions or billions in overseas tax-havens and squander their riches on expensive luxuries which are absolutely unnecessary to living a truly happy and fulfilling mortal human life? Should the rich, with their money and subsequent political clout, be allowed to sway the policy of elected officials in their favor, with utter disregard for the needs of the masses and without contributing a similar percentage of their comforts as is required of the whole span of the middle-class? After one reaches a certain critical mass of cash, it is not hard to let the money do the work for you. That 1,000,000 made in 1 month means far less to the well-off than the 3,500 in a month made by a common american, and as such it should be taxed accordingly.



> ORIGINAL:  diggerdirect
> 
> 
> I read somewheres about limiting politicians to two terms..., 1 in office & 1 in prison  []


 

 That's how it is going lately as far as the Governors of Illinois go, lol. []

 Ron Paul is awesome though, he is like no other modern politician I have yet seen. I don't agree with alot of what he says, but he is honest, clear-focused, and unmoved by self-serving lobbies. He is a truly rare individual, and would actually bring about the promise of "change" as-yet unfulfilled by our present commander-in-chief. Tumultuous change, perhaps, with many gov't jobs lost (my father's potentially included), and with many gov't endorsed entitlements dissolved, but what else will actually bail out this country? 

 Or, as is the current modus operandi,  should we just stick to the present plan and have the fed just print several trillion more dollars to serve as temporary patches to the failing institutions of this country and allow the price of silver to jump to 60/ounce and bread to 5 bucks a loaf?


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## rockbot (Feb 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PrivyCheese (Feb 24, 2011)

Its amazing the amount of intellgence on this forum. Plumbata about summed it up in two post. I will refrain from my babbleing from now on. I totally agree with Plum, in the fact that we all should worry about ourselves. The goverment once served us now we are serveing the goverment. We go to work enmass and the goverment decides what they are going to take and how much you will make. Like sheep we are herded to slaughter.


   I like many have started a home based buisness. (travel agency) It isnt the best of times to have such a buisness but I have made enough to cover most of my mortgage payment every month. After two years I have built a clintele that is loyal and I enjoy what I do. Anyone want to go to Disney World  let me know....LOL I am a Disney expert!


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## cyberdigger (Feb 24, 2011)

I blame all the world's ills on overpopulation.. not much I can do about it except not have kids, though, which is a pity.


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> I blame all the world's ills on overpopulation..


 
 Splain that one would ya Charlie...


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## cyberdigger (Feb 24, 2011)

1960: pop 3 billion
 2010: pop 7 billion
 Size of planet Earth: unchanged.
 Amount of resources per person: dropping rapidly.
 Nothing personal...


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## rockbot (Feb 24, 2011)

Around here people make babies to get more welfare money. How do we address that issue?


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## towhead (Feb 24, 2011)

All I can say is,  I am thankful that I am ABLE to work-or dig-or something, unlike the kid down the street in a wheel chair... [] -Julie


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 24, 2011)

None taken. It immediately brought to mind an interesting thought though. It has nothing to do with over population or the vanishing middle class specifically. It goes like this. I believe that energy cannot be created or distroyed. I seem to recall that from my school days. I believe that the soul that is alive and well in every living thing is actually energy and that this soul is eternal - always has been and always will be - no beginning and no end. That sort of thing. Now you say that the population of the earth in 1960 was 3 billion and in 2010 it was 7 billion. My question is where did all of these souls come from? Makes me just wanna say...hummmmm???????


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## cyberdigger (Feb 24, 2011)

I read somewhere that the estimated total amount of humans who ever lived is somewhere around 110-115 billion. Did each of them have an individual soul, or did the souls of the deceased get recycled?


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## Steve/sewell (Feb 25, 2011)

You guys are getting veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy deep here,straying from the main topic.Chuck your starting to remind me of Harold Wormser

 All of this is starting to reminds me of what Ogre said in the scene in from the movie Revenge of the Nerds II: Nerds in Paradise 

 The boys are laying around a campfire stranded on an Island..................................................


 Arnold Poindexter: So what you're saying essentially is, is that along with infinite space which extends beyond perpetual bigness there's also infinite smallness? 

 Harold Wormser: [nods head in agreement] 

 Arnold Poindexter: How? 

 Harold Wormser: Easy. Take an asymptotic line and extend it outward. 

 Arnold Poindexter: Ohhhhhheh. 

 Stewart: Right, right, right. So perpetual bigness exists si-mul-taneous-ly with perpetual smallness.............................. What was I thinking? 

 Ogre: What if uhhhhhhhhhh  C-A-T......................................  really spelled dog? 

 Arnold Poindexter: Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwh. 

 Harold Wormser: God. 

 Stewart: Yeah. 

 Arnold Poindexter: That's heavy Ogre. Dog. 


> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> I read somewhere that the estimated total amount of humans who ever lived is somewhere around 110-115 billion. Did each of them have an individual soul, or did the souls of the deceased get recycled?


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 25, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> I read somewhere that the estimated total amount of humans who ever lived is somewhere around 110-115 billion. Did each of them have an individual soul, or did the souls of the deceased get recycled?


 
 Interesting thought Charlie. If you are asking me, I can only give you my opinion which is we are all infinite beings. Our physical bodies are born, we live and we die. The spark within us all which we call the soul it what is infinite. That is the energy part which cannot be created or distroyed. I cannot understand why we who are infinate beings would not experience more than what we do in one lifetime. Then do I believe in reincarnation? To some entent but I will not begin to try to explain it because I am not able to. Pure and simple. Beyond that I can only speculate. So the answer to you question in my opinion only is this. We experience a lifetime and those experiences are recorded in the soul somehow. Somehow we get recycled as you say and the soul experiences something that it hasn't learned before in a different body. This happens an infinite amount of times. I have thought about my life, my mortality and infinity as it relates to who I think I am. I'm still working on it,  but I don't have the answers yet. The beginning of wisdom is when you realize that you don't know anything so I am constantly rethinking what I think I know. It's late and i'm rambling so I will let this go for another time. Again, this is only my opinion and I give it freely only because you asked. 

 Steve, yes, you are probably right about straying from the original topic. Maybe tomorrow we can start a new thread or discuss evolution vs envolution or something else which is totally irrevelant. []


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## cyberdigger (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, I'm guilty of changing the subject, it seems, but I stand by my theory that if fewer people inhabited this planet, there'd be more of everything to go around, and we would all be better off than we are now.. BUT.. it goes against everything the civilized world stands for to selectively reduce population levels; nobody has the right to say who lives and who doesn't. So it's a real catch 22.. 
 Far as souls and stuff go.. I often explore this topic in depth with my wife, who is a devout Romanian Orthodox Christian, whereas I am a wishy-washy product of an agnostic lineage.. she believes a soul is born from the breath of God.. he exhales, and a soul is created.. after the physical life is finished, depending on the lifestyle of each individual, that soul is either inhaled back into God, becoming one with him again, or is denied re-entry forever. I like that theory, but I'm the insatiably inquisitive type when it comes to the unknowable, or the unprovable if you will.. Like you said, Dan.. I am also constantly rethinking what I don't know!
 Whether or not we like what's happening in our lives, it's really important to remember that we are just little specks in a vast realm of all that exists, including what we understand and what we do not.. and we should all be extremely thankful to have this opportunity to be "ourselves" for a little while.. regardless if what comes after life is better or worse than this..


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 25, 2011)

I beliieve that everyone has a right to what they believe. I won't cram what I believe down your throat if you don't cram yours down mine. In other words don't let your Karma run over my Dogma and vice versa. I am constantly searching for the truth that shall govern my life and when I think that I know the answers, like I've said before,  someone or something changes the rules and I start all over again. What I can honestly say to this point in my life is that "I dig and therefore I am."


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## cyberdigger (Feb 25, 2011)

[]


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## Dugout (Feb 25, 2011)

We imported 1/4 of the nations beef in which was consumed last year. My husband just turned 59 and is considered a "young" rancher. The land is being taken from us & being put into game reserves and national parks etc. The basis of America is agriculture and we could raise A LOT more food if we were not controlled by our Gov. The Free Trade Agreement is killing us!


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## rockbot (Feb 26, 2011)

Birth rates are leveling off in many parts of the world. What is contributing to overpopulation is that fact that everyone is living longer. Does anyone want to die sooner to save the planet? 
 Maybe a "Logan's run" type of system.[8|]


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## dollarbill (Feb 26, 2011)

Middle class what middle class we lost them 10 15 years ago now its the haves and the have nots .As far as living longer that for those who grew up with clean air and water .Thats not going to be around much longer as its already hard to find in a place thats livable. Well anyway good luck all and I myself will be praying for us all.
    bill


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## CHRISTHEHAWK (Feb 26, 2011)

I like ring bologna and beer !


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## suzanne (Feb 27, 2011)

DN is absolutely right.  It is counter-productive to waste time being resentful  of some one elses pay, even if they are parasitic and you are being forced to provide for them with your tax dollars.  The rich are indeed pitting the middle class against each other and it is impossible for employees to fight for their benefits at this time because if boss fired everyone he can replace them tomorrow with the high unemployment rate.  A corn factory (Grain Processing Corportation) here recently did just that.  Locked out the union.  Fired everyone and replaced them with temps.  2 years later they still have a large number of security guards patrolling to keep out strikers and let in scabs.  

 Also the abundance of illegal aliens for hire allows companies and government to more easily control us.

 Choose your occupation carefully.  Think ahead about what you need to survive in terms of money to support a family, pension, etc.  Don't just fall into what comes your way.  Get the training you need.  If you are unhappy that a policeman makes too much money, turn that energy into positive action, go to police academy, and become a police officer,  so that you too can make too much money.


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## Digswithstick (Feb 27, 2011)

Spot on Suz ![]


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## diggerdirect (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Jim
> 
> I'm self-employed in small business, and not jealous of anyone. I have a lot of respect for police officers, firefighters and every other public employee who provides or has provided a worthwhile service. I don't see you as an enemy, Bill.
> 
> ...


 
 As far as my opinion I think Jim here has hit the nail right on the head! I dont see this as a private sector issue (beyond the point that the private sector pays taxes like any other employee public or private) altho the fear mongers proclaim doom & gloom down the road for all. Crap rolls down hill and all the tax payers are looking up. Its certainly doom & gloom if we dont get things under control.

 Al

 Our 'politicians' love to send out little flyers, first couple pages blast the opposing parties for their wastefulness, greed & irresponsible spending, the last few pages they pat themselves all over their backs on what a good job they are doing, all the grants & money & money & money they secure for our areas. Where the hec do they think this money ultimately comes from?

  Big thing with our NY schools, they always put up all these extra propositions for vote, the catch phrase is " The State pays 80%, we only have to Pay 20%, we cant pass this up!" Where the hec do they think the State & the Feds GET their money?  From all of us


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## epackage (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  PrivyCheese
> 
> At the risk of killing a thread like I do most of the time.... I feel I would like to chime in on the subject. My son is in law enforcement. He risk his life everyday, He is 24 makes almost $40,000 yr, with some outrages benifits. After two years if he took everyday off possible it would total to almost three months. Has a pretty good pension plan ( which he does not have to contribute to) Has excellent healthcare benifits.
> 
> ...


 Sadly PC it seems you don't have a very good understanding of all the good that unions have done in the past and continue to do today, maybe we can go back to 6 day work weeks, 10-12 hour days and children working at the age of 8 or 9 for minimum wages per day. The reason the middle class has been successful for 100 years is because the working man finally stood up for himself against the owners of companies taking advantage of them.

 The WEEKEND, brought to you by the fine people of Union Labor....Your thoughts are very misguided when you call bargaining for pay and benefits criminal as you have in the above post...it's sad really.

 My perspective comes from the Private Union sector but the principles are the same...and while Plumbata is right, Mr Paul has some good ideas, his previous misgivings on race can not be ignored...


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## rockbot (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  suzanne
> 
> 
> 
> Choose your occupation carefully.Â  Think ahead about what you need to survive in terms of money to support a family, pension, etc.Â  Don't just fall into what comes your way.Â  Get the training you need.Â  If you are unhappy that a policeman makes too much money, turn that energy into positive action, go to police academy, and become a police officer,Â  so that you too can make too much money.


 
 While I agree to some extent I can't help being terrified by the fact that we should all become the "same" to survive and make ends meet. That is just all too scary!
 Kind a reminds me of the  "Time machine" novel.


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 27, 2011)

Is it my imagination or was this thread deleted and then reinstated. My hat is off to whoever did the reconnect. Yes, this is a bottle digging forum with with bottle related topics but sometimes other matters are on our minds and we need to vent them. My congratulations to everyone involved.


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## cyberdigger (Feb 27, 2011)

Threads like these are also a good way for us to learn more about each other as individuals..


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## Plumbata (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> Threads like these are also a good way for us to learn more about each other as individuals..


 

 Hey! That is what I've said about every thread which ultimately suffered the blow of a moderator's keen cyber-axe! [&:]


 There are way too many interesting topics to address here. Part of me wants to write about 12 pages of informed opinion. The wiser part just wants to smoke cigarettes and watch everyone else. The latter is easier too. []


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## old.s.bottles (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> Every week I see under-qualified jokers in public positions, wasting everyone else's money.
> 
> I am arranging the purchase of a trial order of a few machines from china, at the cost of about 1,055 each with freight, which sell for 3,000 each on eBay. That alone has been an 80,000 - 100,000K/year net profit market for the past few years, and it is_ sorely_ underdeveloped.Â  Another lucrative product is in-transit from China right now.


 
 Sorry Plum, but I gotta criticize the contradiction stated here. I think a big part of the problem is the fact that a lot of what used to be made in America is now made in China. Sure, its cheaper, but I think we, as proud Americans need to look at the amount of cheap China products being offered in Walmart and think twice. I dont think the problem is under-qualified joker's in public positions (such as myself)[&:] IF the money is to be eventually spent on American made products. Just because a dollar is earned by someone else doesnt mean it is wasted. I put no blame on one person or thing though...it just seems like a perpetual doom system. (oh no, I have little to no money, let me spend whatever i have left on products that are made overseas because its cheaper)


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## peejrey (Feb 27, 2011)

Heheheh.....[sm=lol.gif] Oh jeez
 Politics......
 Woner what this button does 
 [sm=_vti_cnf.log]


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## Staunton Dan (Feb 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  old.s.bottles
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Unfortunately because many of us have little money to spend, we tend to buy our products at Wal-mart and the like because they are cheaper, and thus perpetuating the injustice. The answer is not immediate, at least I don't have one except that I do have principals that seem to work most of the time which is to stop focusing on the problem and see a more promising future. I truly believe that what we focus on expands and that if we focus on the fear of lack, then lack is what we invariably get. How soon things turn around is not readily known, but I do believe that my future and my family's future is what I will to make it and what I will to make it is so much better than where I find myself now. Anything less than hope, until I know which direction to head in, seems fruitless.


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## Plumbata (Mar 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  old.s.bottles
> 
> Sorry Plum, but I gotta criticize  the contradiction stated here. I think a big part of the problem is the  fact that a lot of what used to be made in America is now made in  China. Sure, its cheaper, but I think we, as proud Americans need to  look at the amount of cheap China products being offered in Walmart and  think twice. I dont think the problem is under-qualified joker's in  public positions (such as myself)  IF the money is to be eventually spent on American made products. Just  because a dollar is earned by someone else doesnt mean it is wasted. I  put no blame on one person or thing though...it just seems like a  perpetual doom system. (oh no, I have little to no money, let me spend  whatever i have left on products that are made overseas because its  cheaper)


 
  There was no attempt at contradiction here, and no need for you to  apologize my good man. I should have phrased the statement more  carefully; "Every week I see under-qualified jokers in _federal, state, and municipal_ public positions, wasting everyone else's money". 

  This does not mean that the majority are under-qualified mooches, but  plenty of them are. Here are some examples of what I mean: When my  girlfriend was collecting census information, she said that 1 guy, about  35 years old, reported 40 hour work-weeks several weeks in a row with  ZERO completed responses/census forms to show for it, but if someone  claimed to have worked 40.5 hours, even with plenty of work done, they  were fired immediately. What gives? When a census-taker came to my  apartment, I was there all day and heard no knock but when I went out to  retrieve the laundry I had placed in the machines earlier, I saw a  sheet on the door requesting that I call the female census worker. I  called, and a gruff man who claimed to be her boyfriend answered and I  left a message for her to call me back. She didn't, so I called again,  with a similar result. A few weeks later a different fellow came by, and he actually performed his job.

  I bet she never even knocked, and went on to claim she spent the full day working, and got paid 12/hr to do very little.

  5 years ago, I was hosting a pretty outta-control party (like 150+  people, 2/3rds I had never seen before, when it was in full swing) on a  piece of rural property my family owns, which was busted by the cops  because someone who I did not know left, and proceeded to burn down an  abandoned farmhouse a few miles away. The cops were alerted by someone  driving home (long story) and they made it over to us.

  In one of the Cop SUVs, in the cup holder right in front of a shotgun  rack in-between the 2 front seats, was an open can of Bud Light...[]

  Needless to say, these cops were the kinds of jokers I am referring to.  They assumed that there were drugs at the party, and when they came down  the hill and the 6 police officers all turned on their flashlights, the  first thing they said was "Where's the ecstasy, kids?!" It was rather  scary, but I alone handled all 6 of them. One of my friends passed out  cold from a standing position, guess he couldn't handle it haha. I had  tons of cool chemicals there; Calcium Hydride, Sodium metal, Lycopodium  powder, etcetera, and they would pull out each item and ask what it was.  In full, confident (almost arrogant), scientific language I would  explain precisely what the items were, what they did and how, and the  silent look of dumbfounded ignorance was the only response I got back.  They searched the ground and found all sorts of stuff (not mine),  including a bag of an illicit powder that was brought out by some  country boy I had never met before. He probably used too much, lost it,  and passed out (I did not partake). They asked me what it was and with  the same confidence, I told them it was "Calcium Carbonate" []. 

  They ended up calling my father the next day to verify ownership of the  property and referenced "that rocket-scientist son of yours" [].

  Many other humorous episodes of police idiocy transpired that night, but  you get the picture. The point is that these public servants were  drinking and driving, and not a single out of 6 trained adults knew what  a single 19 year old was talking about, nor could they identify the  drugs that they actually found. Their collective attempts at employing  police mind-games were laughable. I had all those drinkin' and drivin',  ignorant wastes of taxpayer money in the palm of my hand, and these  jokers get great benefits on our dime to protect us from genius  psychopaths? HAH, not a chance! I think cops should be required to  possess at least a modicum of intellectual ability and a dash of  integrity if they are to be placed in a position of such trust,  responsibility and authority.

  Another example is a postal employee I interacted with dozens of times  when shipping loads of eBay stuff. 90% of the time she complained loudly  about how her job sucked and how she wished the day would be over  (what, am i supposed to apologize for needing to ship my packages? [&:]).  She made errors, knew none of the answers to my simple questions, and  was often seen deflecting work on her co-workers while she did nothing.  Being a postal worker is a good job, but she always complained about how  it didn't pay enough and how she hated it, to me and other customers.  It was very inappropriate conduct, to say the least.




  To get at your position regarding China, yes I agree in an idealistic  way, but there really isn't anything we can do about it. Outdated  nostalgia will not stem the tide of modern global economics, so I have  no problem making many times what I paid off of items and substances  imported from overseas. Many of my buyers were/are from foreign  countries, and at profit margins over 100% it is not as if China/Asia is  getting the better end of the deal. If I can buy something for 2,000 a  kilo and sell it for 20 bucks or more a gram, it would be a disservice  to myself and my country to forgo that opportunity to improve my own  economic position as well as that of the country, the latter by having  an influx of foreign monies which I largely spend on American products  and services (and antiques). Were I to buy the materials from large  American chemical or equipment warehouses, all but a scant few would be  entirely unprofitable. I don't personally care for electronics or  mass-produced high-volume, low-profit imported goods/luxuries and go for  the "Grown in USA" foods whenever possible. I do shop at wal-mart, but  only for groceries when I have a long and expensive list. Otherwise I go  to the corner drug store with LUG apothecary bottles displayed on the  shelf, the mom and pop hardware store which has been there for decades,  or farmer's markets, when in season. It is good to support the local  economy, but it is foolish to assume that anything will be able to stop  the current trend save a nuclear clusterfu*k initiated by North Korea.

  China has the world's 2nd largest economy and it is growing at a rate of  7% per year, and that is considered low (they anticipated 8%). They  have a gigantic workforce, and many people with college degrees are  making less than 400 bucks a month. India also is full of unemployed  people with professional 4 year degrees (or higher), and they aren't  spoiled by generations worth of of comfort and entitlements either. 

  When you have people who work for 200-400 a month and can live  comfortably and within their means, and a population of over a billion  each, you can't say that America stands much of an economic chance in  the coming decades. They are a people born into a life of grueling hard  work, with poverty and sickness all around them, often without any  access at all to basic health-care let alone health insurance, pensions,  social security, medicare, quality infrastructure, good homes, or any  general way to get out of the depressing mess without obtaining a solid  education. These people work hard, and will continue working hard long  after their American counterparts retire. Us Americans are pampered,  spoiled little softies compared to these loyal, hardworking Asian  peoples. Our collective work-ethic is terrible in comparison. THAT is  the problem, not the specter of foreign competition.

  The most mediocre of these students is probably more hard working than  some of the best American students, and as such they are completing  degrees in the higher sciences at far greater rates than Americans, to  fill the voids left by the lack of skilled American graduates. It is  only a matter of time until their infrastructure catches up to the  latent abilities of their vast populations and they blow the West out  of the water.

  No longer can one claim, based upon the stereotypes engendered in the  60s-80s, that Chinese stuff is low quality and cheap. Now, in many  cases, it is just high quality and cheap. They still do produce junk  (commissioned by and according to the specifications of American  corporations, mind you), but also some of the most sophisticated  equipment out there, and at a fraction of the cost of material bought  from American or Western European manufacturers. With the weakness of  the American dollar it is amazing how inexpensive such material still  is. Personally, I hope that the Chinese do not give in to the American  call for the revaluation of their currency (because it would harm my  profit margin, lol).

  I plan to embrace and capitalize off of this slow shift of economic  power, not wage a futile, self-destructive struggle against the  inevitable. I suggest that you all do the same.


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## old.s.bottles (Mar 1, 2011)

Alright Plum, I have a few essays for school I need you to type up for me, just kidding[], but really, all I would need to do is type the essay question, and your response would probably be an A+ everytime if I handed it in. I don't mean that in a condescending way either, your intelligent responses aren't putting me to sleep. I mean, I come to this forum to READ and share a couple of my ideas and bottles.


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## KBbottles (Mar 5, 2011)

Wow Plum,

 You have a bright future!!  Very inspiring thinking.  You would probably do very well on wall street selling commodities.


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## cyberdigger (Mar 5, 2011)

Plummy's future is so bright, I gotta wear shades.. [8D]


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