# Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions



## Adapt (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi everyone,

 I just recently purchased a few Coca Cola bottles and I'm interested in some of the information embosed and painted on them. Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to end up destroying something I have no idea about.

 I have a bottle that has Coca Cola trade mark registered bottle pat D-105529 on the side and it also has a small number embosed underneath which is 54 with a weird shape and then 43 what does this mean? And it also has Oakland Calif on the bottom.

 The other ones have printed/painted Coca Cola and Coke logo's some with embosed numbers and A and M on the sides.

 Thank you in advance for any help that can be offered as I'm complete new to all of this


----------



## silverminerich (Jun 18, 2012)

From what ive seen they usually want pictures of the bottles before they answer questions.All i can tell you is oakland is where the coke plant was ,and some have numbers that are dates the 29 might be the year.There are alot of sites that show the different coke bottles through the years and you can date them that way also.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Jun 18, 2012)

> From what ive seen they usually want pictures of the bottles before they answer questions.


Welcome to the forum. In a lot of cases that's true. In this one I think a redirect to http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/ETclanSETH114/bottlehistory.html should clarify most of the Q's.
 I'm now going to move this to the soda category. It may get seen better but yes, they sound like they are all after 1900. []


----------



## RED Matthews (Jun 18, 2012)

Hello  I just recently bought a book "The Illustrated Guide to the Collectabibmles of COCA- COLA" By none other than Cecil Munsey - a great bottle book was also written by him.  In that book pages 62 and 63 lists the bottles that Coca-Cola made and when the made the changes.  

 I have a half of a brass Coca-Cola mold that I have been thinking of selling,.  It is for an Emhart ABM  of the IS type.  A couple 100 could take it away from me.  

 Bottles are a great hobby,.  RED Matthews


----------



## SkinsFan36 (Jun 18, 2012)

It's called a D-patent coke. Produced from 1938 to 1951.


----------



## bloodj2 (Jun 18, 2012)

The D-patent coke was property of the Oakland bottler. The Number 54 is probably some internal quality assurance number, the symbol is the glass company that made the bottle, and the 43 is the date. So what you have is a 1943 D-Pat coke from Oakland. I think it's probably worth $3-$5, but another member might want to check me on that. Value of coke bottles is based on condition, style, and rarity of the town. Oakland being a larger town could be more common.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 19, 2012)

Adapt ~

 Welcome to the forum.

 The D-Patents were made/distributed between 1938 and 1951. So it appears that your embossed bottle would be from 1943 and not 1954 because that would be too late for a D-Patent. But I'm a little confused by the number 54 because mold numbers typically did not migrate to the side until 1951, and there is no plant number 54 that I know of. Are you certain you are seeing the numbers correctly? And does what you described as a weird shape look something like this?  <(I)>  Or something else?

 As for the painted label (ACL) bottles, they were first made around 1955-56, and may or may not be dated or have a town name on them. The Oakland bottle (in mint condition) can often be purchased for as little as 50-cents to $1.00

 Sodapopbob


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 25, 2012)

Sodapopbob,

 Here on Guam there are 1944/1945 coke bottles laying everywhere in the jungle, wherever American soldiers bivouacked from the liberation in 1944 onward.  I see all sorts of weird numbers that don't match up to the documentation.  I've stumbled across a few dozen 1944 Oakland bottles here but only kept a couple for my collection.  One I'm looking at right now has a plant number of "5K" - meaning to the left of the logo is "5K", to the right is "44" for 1944.  Lots of early 50's bottles have plan numbers in the 50's - for example "54 <|> 52".

 I've seen people who claim the clear coke bottles were due to the shortage of copper in wartime.  I'm not sure I believe that.  I suspect they did it to identify bottles for overseas (for the troops).  I can't tell you how many hundreds of examples I've seen - the 1944/1945's are usually all clear, but they are also mixed in with 1944/45 standard green embossed with cities like San Francisco, Oakland, Portland, and Seattle.  There are quite a bit of more recent ones also, from the late 40's until the early 50's when the area I explore was vacated.  Most of those are green but with no city embossing - again probably signifying overseas bottling.

 I have a Philippine milk bottle that defies the Owen's Corning date info:  Plant 23 (Los Angeles, supposedly started in 1959), year "1" with no decimal, supposedly indicating 1931 or 1941, but with the duraglas logo which means post 1940.  I'm guessing 1951 due to the age of other bottles in the area.

 Regards,
 -Dave


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2012)

daven2nl ~

 Thanks for sharing your Guam info. If I lived there, I think I would be inclined to gather up every bottle I saw. It would be like an Easter egg hunt in the jungle. But instead of a basket, I'd probably  use a wheelbarrel or dump truck if necessary. (Lol)

 Regarding the marks, especially the ones you referred to as Plant Numbers, please be reminded that in 1951 the numbers on the sides or skirt of the bottles are "Date" and "Mold" numbers. At least this was the case with Owens-Illinois bottles whose mark was as you indicated, something like this  54 <(I)> 52 ... and that the date and mold number can be found on either side of the mark, thus often making it difficult to determine which is which. 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2012)

Oops / PS ... I accidently posted and ran out of editing time before I was finished ...

 I'd like to hear more about the 5K mark you mentioned. Is it just on the green bottles, or on both the green and the clear bottles?

 Thanks.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 Also check the bases/bottoms of the bottles, especially the post 1951 examples. You will likely find makers marks there as well.


----------



## surfaceone (Jun 25, 2012)

Chester Carl Butler...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 25, 2012)

Surf ~

 Very interesting. Thanks.

 It would be interesting to know where Butler got his bottles and whether they were made overseas or shipped from the United states. It would also be interesting to know if Butler bottles were marked as such, or had no marks whatsoever? Maybe the 5K was a Butler mark. But irregardless, according to the following, it doesn't appear that Butler was involved with wartime production of Coca Cola ...

 When World War II started in 1941, Chester Butler was one of the American citizens taken to Japan as a prisoner of war. He was interned in a prison camp in Japan. When he returned to Guam after the war his businesses were in ruins. The bottling plant, movie theater and Butlerâ€™s Emporium were completely destroyed during the American bombardment of HagÃ¥tÃ±a in 1944, and the re-established American naval government took possession of most of his property in HagÃ¥tÃ±a.


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 25, 2012)

Have you ever found any Beer cans the US military left behind in Guam? I'd be interested in those. Especially the olive drab Camouflage ones. Let me know? LEON.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks for the responses!

 If you know where to look, there are thousands of old coke bottles in the jungle.  Scattered individually, and in scattered piles where they were dumped.  No digging here on Guam - the topsoil is only a couple inches deep and then it's all limestone, at least on the northern end of the island.  






 I have a few in my collection, but as a member of the Coast Guard, I am limited in the amount of stuff I can bring when transferred.  My wife and kids things take priority!  That said, I prefer to leave most untouched so the next generation has something to explore.  

 I have always understood that the date can be read off the side (skirt) of old coke bottles.  Some sort of plant code to the left of the MFR mark, with the last two digits of the date to the right.  I have never found a coke bottle here on Guam with a date earlier than 44 - but I am primarily interested from a WW2 history aspect and have only explored areas touched during and after wartime.  The coke bottles are so plentiful that they make a very convenient way for me to date the dump I'm exploring.  If they are post-war (not 1944/45) I am honestly not interested and move on.  My primary interest in bottles are the Japanese WW2 type that were brought here during the occupation.  They are much more difficult to find however I've stumbled across a couple places where they too are plentiful.

 I've seen bottles collected by fellow Coasties who have visited various islands in the Pacific - such as Palmyra Atoll - and the ones they have are older, typically 42 or 43.  I attest the lack of older bottles here on Guam to the fact that it was Japanese occupied territory until July 1944.

 Here are two examples from my collection.  On the left is a typical green hobbleskirt, embossed Oakland CA on the base.  The one on the right is the typical clear coke bottle, either with nothing on the base or sometimes with a single raised point offset from the center.






 One additional thing of note - I've found clear coke bottles from the same year (1944 and 45) with both the Patent D embossing and with only "Trade Mark".  I'd say it's about 50/50 one or the other.






 I did my best to take a close-up of the date code info on the two bottles.  The green one is difficult to read due to weak embossing.  The Oakland bottle on the left is 5K <|> 44 (where <|> is the Owens Corning mark) and the clear bottle to the right is more easily read - 8P <|> 44.

 If it would be helpful to anyone, I could bring a notebook out with me the next time I explore and write down all the skirt data I can find, to be able to provide more data points.  Between my son and I, we've only got about a dozen that we've kept.

 -Dave

 PS:  Leon, if you didn't see my other post, unfortunately any metal beverage cans that may have been discarded have long rusted away here in the tropics.  A few months back I found an old aluminum canteen; even it was corroded into swiss cheese.  Only the stainless steel US serving trays seem to have survived - I've found a couple of them, one even with the owners initials scratched into the bottom of it.  I'll keep my eye out however, and keep you in mind - you've got "dibs".


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 26, 2012)

I think I answered my own question by poking around some more on Google. According to Bill Lockhart http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm the code to the left of the manufacturers mark is the mold number, not plant code, at least in the 1944/45 years.  So, I can imagine there would be all sorts of variety to this number.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

daven2nl ~

 First of all, thanks for the great pictures. The one of the bottle dump is unique and suitable for framing.

 Secondly, I'm not sure you understood the Lockhart info correctly. Notice where he (quoting Bill Porter) said ...

 "In 1951, two changes occurred simultaneously. The date code migrated to the left, and the manufacturer's mark moved to the base of the bottle. The remaining embossing on the skirt was the two-digit date code, a dash (-), then the two-digit mold code on the right. These changes occurred about mid-year, so Coke bottles are found with both configurations. Some Owens-Illinois-made Coke bottles actually used the standard Owens- Illinois format."

 Which means 1940s Coke bottles have plant numbers and date numbers on either side of the Owens-Illinois mark, and that this mark and numbers are on the side of the bottles.  For example:  21 <(I)> 44  would indicate the bottle was made at the San Francisco Plant #21 in 1944. 

 Mold numbers did not migrate to the sides of bottles until 1951, which is what I indicated in my reply #9.

 SPB


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 26, 2012)

Hmmm... I'm confused now.  Here's the sentence before the one you quoted (from Bill Porter):

 "Virtually all glass houses making Coke bottles had changed to "skirt" markings by 1934 (see below). This consists of a two-digit mold code followed by a manufacturer's mark (in the case of Owens-Illinois, the earliest mark with the elongated diamond) and the two digit date code (to the right) all embossed on the narrowest constriction of the "skirt" or lower half of the bottle."

 This is where I got the info... am I interpreting this correctly that the number to the left is the mold code, and the number to the right the date, in 1940's coke bottles?  I'm thinking the plant number was not embossed on Coke bottles before 1951 - only a mold number and the date (with the MFR mark).  This would explain why I'm finding oddball annotations to the left of the MFR mark in 44/45 coke bottles - since they aren't plant codes at all.

 Of course this is not the case with most other bottles of the era, which have the plant code to the left, year to the right, and mold number underneath, but the cokes were different.

 My apologies if I'm in the wrong... I'm just trying to sort this out in my head!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

Every 1940s Owens-Illinois Coca Cola bottle I am aware of has the plant number and date number on the side. The 1934 reference pertains to other makers marks and not specifically to Owens-Illinois bottles. There were lots of other glass makers who made Coca Cola bottles in the 1940s.

 But I admit I have never seen or heard of the 5K and 8P marks before. And I'm not sure Bill Porter has either. In fact, I am just now getting ready to send Bill this info, along with your pictures to see what he has to say about those two never before seen marks. I have Bill's book and cannot find any mention of those two marks. You might be the first one to have discovered them. 

 By the way, if in fact Bill doesn't have examples of those marks in his 2,000+ collection of Hobbleskirt bottles, would it be possible to acquire a few examples? I'd like one of each myself.

 I will let you know what Bill has to say just as soon as I hear back from him. I have communicated with Bill numerous times and have even sold and purchased several bottles to him.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

PS ~

 Have you examined enough of the 5K and 8P bottles yet to determine if those marks are on both the green and the clear bottles? Or is each mark specifically on one color or another?

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

I just sent an email with attachments to Bill Porter. He's really good about responding to my inquires the same day I send them, but this may not occur until this evening when he gets home from work. Below is a picture of how he displays most of his bottles. He has them fully catagorized, I believe, alphabetically by state. If anybody knows what 5K and 8P stand for, Bill will.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

Apparently Bill was home (or else got my message at work) and just this minute sent me this reply ...

 Bob, 

 Very interesting in that they have the full "D Patent" writing on the sides. I have some like these, but most I see from Pacific hoards are only marked "TRADE-MARK" on the side. I don't know the meaning of the letters in the mold numbers.

 I would be interested in a couple of sets if they are as nice as those in the pictures.

 But the really big question is - do any have city names? The ones I have do not, although I have some city-named (green) Cokes with letters in the mold number.

 Thanks - Please tell me more!

 Bill


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

Bill just sent me another reply and would like to know if the 5K and 8P bottles have city/states embossed on the bottoms? And if so, which city/states in relation to each specific code?

 I have to leave for work in 15 minutes, so you won't hear from me again until sometime this evening.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 26, 2012)

Quick PS ~

 Please think about what it would take and how much it would cost to acquire several (in near mint condition if possible) examples of the 5K and 8P bottles? We'll discuss the details later after you determine how many variations you have or can gather up from the dumps. We will be sure to make this worth your while. Plus, you will likely be establishing never before seen information that will assist not only Bill Porter (who is the guru of hobbleskirts) but also collectors worldwide.

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 26, 2012)

Bob - very cool - I would love to assist!

 The 5K is embossed on a green bottle with Oakland CA on the bottom, one of the more commonly found cities I do stumble across.

 The vast majority of bottles I find are hazed - either from contact with the limestone, acid rain, sun, or a combination of things.  It is permanent - muriatic acid does not clean them up which tells me it's the glass which is etched, not a deposit.

 There are clear ones to be found however.

 Let me run into the jungle this week.  I'll take a survey of different characteristics, along with some additional photos of how they look "in the wild".

 -Dave


----------



## OsiaBoyce (Jun 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: hemihampton
> 
> Have you ever found any Beer cans the US military left behind in Guam? I'd be interested in those. Especially the olive drab Camouflage ones. Let me know? LEON.


 
 I bet you would []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

Dave ~

 Sounds good. And please keep your eyes peeled for two really nice 5Ks and two really nice 8Ps. Bill Porter and I would like one each if possible. But before getting too involved, please let me know what it would cost to purchase the bottles and have them shipped to the states?

 If possible, Bill was also hoping you could take some notes, such as ...

 1.  How many different city/states you find with the 5K mark?
 2.  If any of the clear 8Ps are marked with a city/state? 
 3.  Any variations or other marks you find.
 4.  Anything else you think of that would be of interest.

 But please do not spend any more time on this than your interest allows. It won't be the end of the world if it doesn't work out.

 Thanks a lot. 

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

Additionally ...

 Bill Porter has done more research on Coca Cola bottles than anyone else I know of. And when he gets a whiff of a couple of bottles he doesn't already have, he's like a hound on the hunt. To date he only has a select few with letters as part of the codes. Here's a sampling he sent me some of the ones he already has in his collection ...

 Petaluma, California ... 2A <(I)> 44  (1944) 
 Susanville, California .. 3A <(I)> 47  (1947)   
 Pocatello, Idaho ......... 8A <(I)> 50  (1950) 
 Reno, Nevada ............ B3 <(I)> 50  (1950) 

 He thinks the letters might represent a number, but is not sure why the Owens-Illinois Company would do that.

 Thanks to you, Bill can now add the following to his list ...

 Oakland, California ...... 5K <(I)> 44  (1944)
 ???????, ??????? .......... 8P  <(I)> 44  (1944) 

 Congratulations!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

PS ~

 One thing I noticed about the bottles with letters, is they are all from bottlers located in the western part of the United States. But whether there is a regional/distribution connection between them of some kind, or what the letters might represent, I cannot say.

 So far, there are ... A, B, K, P

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

PS ~ PS

 Alphabetically/Numerically they equate to ...

 A = 1
 B = 2
 K = 11
 P = 16

 But cannot be Owens-Illinois plant numbers because some of the corresponding plants closed in the 1930s and the others just don't connect properly to a plant. The only one that does is the number 2 for the O-I plant in Huntington, West Virginia.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 27, 2012)

Just got back from an afternoon in the jungle.  It was a rough one - got torn up twice by wasps.  The first time were the smaller boonie bees - 8-10 stings.  Mean suckers!  The 2nd time by large yellow jungle hornets - 6-8 stings that time and they still hurt + sore.  I'm not allergic to bees but I'm going to have to stay clear of the jungle for a couple days - I don't want to stung any more until I've had a chance to recover from this bout.

 I haven't summed everything yet, but I figure I listed info from about 100 coke bottles.  It's really tough to read some due to weak embossing/moss/hazing plus the heat/humidity makes it hard to keep sweat out of my eyes.  I still need to hit 3 or 4 more places I know before I will have some good data for you.

 I'll put any bottles aside that have letter codes instead of numbers so I can confirm once the bottles have been cleaned - the rest I'm leaving behind as they may have some historical significance.

 The vast majority of the ones I listed today are the typical Owens Corning # -<|> # type with clear glass and small "Trade Mark" embossing.  Most of these are from 1945, but again I really only sampled from one dump site.

 I do believe I found one with "2N <|> 45" that I hopefully put aside.  

 In my collection at home I have the following:

 9D <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass)
 5L <> 44 (Pat-D, No embossing on base, clear glass)
 2C <> 44 (Trade Mark, no embossing on base except for a single raised dimple, clear glass)
 8P <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass)
 8R <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass)
 5K <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass)

 I still need to hit the area where I found most of the Oakland CA bottles - there are probably more letter date codes there.

 Give me a week to get as much data as possible, and I will summarize for you and Bill.

 FYI all the manufacturer marks are Owens-Corning (vast majority), Chattanooga Glass Company (C in a circle), and a 3rd mark I have not been able to identify.  This is on most of the newer bottles - early 50s.  It appears to be a circle with a horizontal line across it, and two vertical lines extending from the top and bottom of the circle.  It's really tough to see since it's so small and embossing isn't the greatest.  I'll keep digging.

 -Dave


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

Dave ~

 Wow! (or should I say "Ow" because of the bee stings?) You really earned your stripes this time! Thank you for the information. I will be sure to share it with Bill Porter. It will be interesting to see what you come up with regarding the 100 bottles you mentioned. Of special interest are the green ones, especially the ones with letters on them. 

 By the way, I just checked the time difference between Guam and the U.S., and when its 8:00 AM Wednesday here on the West Coast, its 1:00 AM Thursday in Guam.

 The first chance I get, I am going to research the makers mark you mentioned, which at present I do not recognize. Maybe someone else who reads this is familiar with it.

 I will be looking forward to hearing from you again, but no hurry. The bottles aren't going anywhere and neither are we.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2012)

PS ~

 When you say Owens-Corning, don't you actually mean Owens-Illinois?

 Also, is the makers mark you described sort of like an H in a circle or something else?

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 28, 2012)

Bob,

 Sorry - I'm a doofus!  I meant Owens - Illinois (not Corning; I don't know how that got stuck in my head)

 Here are pictures of the unknown manufacturers marks:

 The first, on a green coke bottle with a large "TRADE MARK" and no markings whatsoever on the base:







 I have only found one with this mark, which is why I kept it originally.  

 Here is the second, which seems to be the only mark I am finding on bottles from the early 50s:






 I have several with this MFR mark and I have not been able to identify either online.  This is also a green bottle, with nothing embossed on the base, and with TRADE MARK REGISTERED IN US PATENT OFFICE

 Could these be foreign bottle manufacturers?  The 1st one looks almost like a "N" in a diamond, which may be a Japanese marking according to this page:
 www.cokebottles.de/

 I have (until now) mostly ignored the more recent (IE 1950s) hobblskirts but I know where there are several that I'll be checking out hopefully over the next few days.

 Thanks,
 -Dave


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 28, 2012)

Dave ~

 It's probably mid-day where you are, but midnight here. So I only have a minute. I wanted to take this opportunity and commend you on the great pictures and say thanks. I have never seen either mark. Weird!. If the one is Japanese, then maybe there is something to be found here ...

 http://www.sha.org/documents/Technical_briefs_articles/vol4article_02.pdf

 I only scrolled through it real quick, so really don't know what all it contains.

 I'll be back tomorrow with more comments. In the meantime, please keep up the good work. Very interesting and educational. I just forwarded your last two pictures to Bill Porter. Maybe he recognizes the marks.

 Later.

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 28, 2012)

Bob,

 I've read that article over many times since Japanese bottles are what really interest me.  It's about the only document I can find that describes Japanese WW2 era bottles.  

 Unfortunately it is not complete, however.  I've found a couple different varieties here that are definitely not rare, but not included in that paper.  Also, I've run across enough Dai Nippon bottled to deduce that one of the numbers on the base is the year of manufacture (in Year of the Showa).  That is something I'm planning on writing up in the future.  That info also is not included in the paper.

 I probably am an outlier (well obviously I am) being on Guam and not North America.  I suspect I'm finding lots of oddities because we're technically overseas and the rules are slightly different (like no embossing on the bottle's base).  Today most of our stuff comes from North America - because of the Jones Act - but in the late 40s and early 50s I would imagine it would be quicker and cheaper to import things such as empty bottles from closer places, like the Philippines and Japan (not that Japan was rebuilt enough by 1950 to be a big exporter...).

 Anyway, I'm having a blast!

 -Dave


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 28, 2012)

Dave ~

 Bill Porter isn't familiar with those marks either, but finds all of this to be very interesting. The collecting and researching of Asian Coca Cola bottles is a study unto itself, with apparently very little information available to collectors unless you can read a foreign language. I'm sure you have done your homework and likely know as much or more about Asian Coca Cola bottles than your average collector. Do you speak or able to read Japanese, etc? I sure don't.

 For those among us who are inclined to do so, maybe those marks or some reference to them can be found on one of the following links which are to various Coca Cola bottlers worldwide, and specifically to Japan.

 Please continue with more - I'm hooked! Especially regarding any of the green city/state bottles with letters, etc. on them.

 Thanks again.

 Bob

  Main Link:

 http://www.7xpub.com/coca-cola-websites-and-links/coke-clubs-collectors.html?start=40

 Side Links / Japanese Coca Cola Bottlers

 http://www.cccj.co.jp/

 http://www.hokkaido.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.mikuni-ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.minami-kyushu.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.okinawa.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.sendai.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.shikoku.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.tokyo.ccbc.co.jp/

 http://www.tone.ccbc.co.jp/


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 29, 2012)

Interesting stuff!

 Check out this photo (large):

http://www.nww2m.com/wp-content/upl...ipan-Gift-of-Precilla-Porche_2001.464.021.jpg

 The interesting thing to me are the Japanese prisoners in the photo who apparently worked at the bottling plant.  They are the ones in front - and most are not showing their faces as they felt disgraced for allowing themselves to be captured.

 I suspect on Guam a similar thing happened.  Coke brought in bottling capability and a certain stock of bottles which were cleaned and refilled/capped like stateside.  It's quite possible and likely that many of the bottles I see were used into the post-war years.

 I seem to find a lot of 1944/45 bottles (clear) mixed in with a very few green bottles (some with the city on the base) from the mid 40's.  I find very few bottles from 46-50 - maybe they were still using the older clear bottles.  In the early 50's the numbers seem to pick up again.  I still need to visit a bunch more places and get more data points before I can conclude  this is the case.

 Guam was under Navy control until 1950.  So it would not surprise me that Coke used the same wartime bottling plants into the post-war years.  I guess the question would be these manufacturer marks - tracking down where these bottles were made.  I'm guessing likely candidates would be USA, Japan, or Australia.  They did not make bottles here on Guam AFAIK.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2012)

Dave ~

 There's no question the first bottle you posted a picture of is a "Nippon Glass Company, Ltd." bottle. You posted the home page to this site earlier but didn't emphasize that the identical mark is shown on the Hobbleskirt page. Scroll down and click on "Japan" and you'll see it. Here's the link again plus an altered picture I did to highlight the N. I haven't researched the company yet, but intend to and see what their connection to Coca Cola was.

 N in a diamond
 Nippon Glass Co., Ltd., Tokyo, Japan
 http://www.cokebottles.de/framesr3.htm

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2012)

PS ~

 Dave ~

 Have you scrolled through that website and looked at every mark from every country yet? I haven't but intend to tomorrow. That other weird mark might be found there.

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 29, 2012)

Yes - I have - no matches.

 Tomorrow I may have to go up to a place where I saw (and ignored) several early 50's coke bottles to see if they all have similar markings.

 I agree with the "N" in a diamond - not sure where you see that it stands for Nippon Glass Co however.  The cokebottles.de site uses frames that don't translate well into links.  I'll poke around myself also.

 If that site is accurate, they did not start bottling coke in Japan until 1957 which does not seem correct.  Why would they export coke bottles if they did not bottle there?  The lack of supporting references make me a bit leery.

 -Dave


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 29, 2012)

Check this out - translating this URL:

http://www.tokyo.ccbc.co.jp/factory/history_01.html

 I quote (from Google Translate):

 Birth of Coca-Cola

 Was born in 1886 that Coca-Cola. Was created by pharmacist Dr. John Pemberton Â· S Â· live in Atlanta, Georgia. Initially, things were sold water was added to the syrup that forms the basis of Coca-Cola, I had mixed with carbonated water in the wrong.
 People loved the Coca-Cola containing carbonated water, a refreshing Coca-Cola soda but was born.
 By the way, is named "Coca-Cola," which was named by Frank Robinson Â· M Â· was co-owner at the time. He is a name that was please it was thought that work the literary talent, that, well-sounding words And stepping on the alliteration.


 Big business

 It was in the Coca-Cola business came to be known to people is Â· G Â· Asa Candler. He bought the rights for manufacturing and selling Coca-Cola in 1891, founded the company the following year.
 I was going to deploy massive advertising activities. I went to spread across the United States to bear the convenience to shop from instantaneous who contributed to the mass market is that anyone can buy 5 cents again, handed out every novelty, such as glass containing a calendar or name.


 Japan landing

 It is said that it was imported to Japan for the first time Coca-Cola, and the Taisho era.
 The name of the Kokakoora will appear in the year 1914 (1914), which is included in the "road" poems poet Kotaro Takamura has announced "poetry of Insane person."

 Blowing love ", love the cold wind blowing wholesale Chichibu (Omitted)
 Kokakoora, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
 (Omitted) Conclusion from that town three-chome chome Ginza
 Opinion to the self 's going to have another cup of novelty Kokakoora (Koryaku) "

 Why did the Japanese before the war still too new, I disappeared from the market matches the exclusion of imported goods during the war within a common but not a reputation.

 It showed up again in Japan, when the team was "San Francisco Seals" American professional baseball in 1949, led by coach O'Doul (1949) came to Japan. Sales of Coca-Cola in the same stadium will be allowed only in this game, became the first encounter with Coca-Cola and the common people.


 Passion of Jinzaburo Takanashi

 Coca-Cola meeting and Takanashi Jinzaburo called the "Father of the Coca-Cola business in Japan", it is not long after the war of 1947 (1947). Jinzaburo At the time, was president of the lesser omentum is shopping, I felt an inconsistency in the Japanese wholesale system.
 Fascinated by the story of the franchise system such an occasion, Coca-Cola of the United States, was firmly determined that the Coca-Cola to introduce to Japan, continue to spread.
 However, there was a large wall with two on and think of Jinzaburo is conflicting, to manufacture and sell Coca-Cola in Japan. One is to get the approval of the franchise. Another was to get from the Japanese government, the allocation of foreign currency to import a stock solution of the Coca-Cola.
 Latter, there was intense enough to be picked up in such a difficult journey opposition from the industry concerned, in the Diet.
 It without giving up any explanation to the government, persuasion, repeat the petition, can earn a foreign exchange allocation 1956 (1956), was a desire, (the current Coca-Cola Bottling Co., Ltd., Tokyo) Soft Drinks Co., Ltd. Tokyo finally established in March next year, make deliveries to the U.S. military, business is manufacturing and sales company was started as the first Coca-Cola by the hands of the Japanese.
 Years of nine years had Jinzaburo flow is indeed, from listening to the story of Coca-Cola. 


 So - Coke was not bottled in Japan until 1957, yet they manufactured and exported coke bottles in the early 50s?  This doesn't make sense...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2012)

Dave ~

 I initially found a reference to the "N in a diamond" on the internet, which caused me to double check the 1972 copy of Julian Toulouse's book I have where it was confirmed. However, neither source mentioned anything about dates, so I cannot comment on that. Toulouse's book list a total of 18 different glass manufactures for japan, but none of the marks shown look anything like the one on your other bottle.

 Bob


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 29, 2012)

Interesting, I know by the early 60's Japan & Australia was canning Coke. Don't know anything about the bottles, Except I'd like to have a Clear Coke bottle. LEON.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 29, 2012)

I just got back from an old dump located near Northwest Field on Guam and was in use from 1945 - about 1955.  It was recently cleaned up by the Air Force but there is still some stuff to be found outside of the cleaned-up area.  I'd say I found about 15-20 more recent (early 50's) hobbleskirt coke bottles.

 I can 100% confirm now the "N" in a diamond MFR mark as Japanese.  I found the same mark embossed on the base of two DaiNippon beer bottles.  These bottles were probably post war because they have the same shape but different marking from the pre-and-wartime Dai Nippon bottles I usually find.  

 I found several with the unknown MFR mark I photographed previously.  All were dated 1950 and 1952.  I found a few more "Diamond N" marked coke bottles, all from 1954.  Interestingly, I found a few with another Japanese MFR mark - think the "support our troops" ribbon inside a diamond the same size as the "Diamond N".  It's shown on the cokebottles.de site as a Japanese mark.

 I only found one city embossed bottle - San Francisco from 1948.

 The ACL soda collectors would have a field day had all the ACL paint not degraded off the bottles.  Tons of weird shaped bottles.  Nehi, Pepsi, Royal Cola, ETC.  

 Neatest find was the framework for a B-29 bomber blister window.  Plexiglass broken of course, but the frame and latching mechanisms were all still there.

 I'll try to post photos later...

 -Dave


----------



## surfaceone (Jun 30, 2012)

Hey Dave,

 "N in a diamond	Tippon Glass Co., Ltd., Tokyo, Japan" From. Also, confirmed HERE.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks!

 I actually believe that is a typo - it should be "Nippon Glass Company" - which is supported by the "N" in the diamond.

 Nippon = Japan

 For example, Dai Nippon = Great Japan (as in Dai Nippon Brewery)

 All the best,
 -Dave


----------



## surfaceone (Jun 30, 2012)

You may, indeed, be correct. Though we have these 2 gaijin glass guys, both claiming Tippon.

 "Dai nippon was a leader in expanding and reorganizing the bottle industry through purchase and consolidation. starting in 1911, the company also introduced semi-automatic and automatic bottle-mak- ing machines from europe and america. in that same year, it became the first Japanese company to introduce crown closures on its bottles, and others soon followed. in 1920, Dai nippon purchased nippon glass Kogyo company, founded in 1916, whose owner was the first to acquire ma- chines and patent rights from the owens Bottle Machine company of Toledo, ohio. By the 1920s, Dai nippon was using either graham or owens machines in all its plants. Bottle sizes were not standardized until 1944, but beer was typically marketed in two sizes, with the larger size modeled after the london Bass Beer companyâ€™s 630.8 ml bottle, and the smaller size of half that volume. laker notes that Dai nippon often used different sizes of bottle at different breweries. By the 1930s, companies were even grinding competitorsâ€™ names off empty bottles and reusing them (laker 1975:88, 247â€“262).

 In addition to dominating the Japanese market, Dai nippon created subsidiary companies in Korea and parts of china, occupied as a result of Japanese military expansion." From, (I think you may find the previous article of use, though no "N in Diamond" mentioned.)

 What's the maker's mark on your Dai Nippon beers?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2012)

Dai Nippon Beer Bottle


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2012)

What's confusing me isn't the name Nippon/Dai Nippon, but rather the connection to Coca Cola in the early 1950s. We know from the bottle mark 6-N-54 that Nippon definitely made green hobbleskirts, and yet I can find no text reference regarding it. But I did find this pertaining to the history of Asahi/Dai Nippon.

  Asahi / Dai Nippon History
 http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/asahi-breweries-ltd-history/


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 30, 2012)

The weather here has not been cooperative to taking clear outdoor photos of bottles the last couple days.  Heavy tropical rain has been falling off and on, several inches overnight.  I did catch a break this morning and went out to photo the other Dai Nippon bottle.

 First for Hemihampton - I found my first ever WW2 beer can!  It was in better shape than I expected:







 I found it tucked away under a large rock.  This is what happens to something made out of metal (steel) after being left in a tropical jungle for 70 years with 90 degree heat and 90 percent humidity 24/7/365.  Sorry 'bout that - I really doubt I will find any beer cans unless they were kept in someone's home as a collection.

 Here is the newer Dai Nippon bottle (1945-49 era):






 You see the circle embossing just below the neck?  That and the shape tell me right away that this is a Dai Nippon Brewery bottle.  The circle (often with a dot in the center) signifies the sun and is a trademark logo.

 Here is the base:






 You can see the diamond "N" - the other marks are probably mold marks.  I will try to get photos of the older wartime Dai Nippon beer bottles I have in my collection.  There are big variations in embossing but the bottle shape remained the same.  

 FYI I think Nippon Glass Works is a separate company from Dai Nippon.  I think the beer manufacturer made their own beer bottles until the end of WW2, then the company was broken up - anti trust type laws - while under US occupation.

 While out and about, some more stuff I stumbled across:






 This is a large Japanese WW2 sake bottle.  They are somewhat rare, but I find them from time to time.  These are large - perhaps 16 inches tall and 7 inches in diameter.  This is as I found it - even after 70 years.  The jungle floor is all limestone rock and there is only a couple inches of dirt and leaf matter so nothing gets buried and it all sits as it was dropped.






 This is the frame from a broken B-29 bomber blister window.  Found near the WW2 bomber base Northwest Field.






 UXO - relatively common on Guam.  This is either an artillery or naval shell that failed to explode.  I laid the pen down for scale.  Obviously I never touch UXO - theoretically it is still live and could explode but the reality is that I could probably throw it onto a concrete floor and it would only break into pieces.


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

I hope you saved that P.O.S. cracked in half beer can for me. I can still see the olive drab green paint on it. Trust me, I know I can fix that evan as bad as it is. Plus I'm extremely curious what brand it could be? LEON.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 30, 2012)

I didn't grab it but will the next time I'm out.  It is incredibly fragile - there definitely was no OD paint left on it - I think the photo is misleading.  I'll poke around more the next time I'm there also to see if I can find more.


----------



## daven2nl (Jun 30, 2012)

Here are two photos of some of the older WW2 era Dai Nippon bottles I have n my collection.  These are relatively common - I've probably come across a couple hundred but most are on military property where you can get in trouble for removing artifacts.  These I found off base in public areas.

 I went with a slightly larger resize for these images...






 Yes - they all have a standard size and shape but come in all sorts of shades of color.  The green ones are very rare.  The embossing is the same - I just tried to rotate the bottles so you can see different sides.






 This is the base embossing common to all Dai Nippon bottles of this size and shape from WW2 and earlier.  Dai Nippon makes a smaller size beer bottle of clear and green glass that has Kanji (Japanese script) embossing but these are much less common.

 I have theorized and seen enough to be fairly confident that the number to the left of the star is the year of manufacture.  The two left ones in the photo are 16 and the one on the right is 18.  This is not 1916 and 1918 - it's the year of the Showa period:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/year.htm

 so 16 = 1941 and 18 = 1943.  

 I have a bunch of coke bottles to clean and photograph before I can get this thread back on topic with some more coke bottle photos of unusual mold/MFR marks...

 -Dave


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

Gotta be lot more beer cans, They just hide good. Sure wish I could be there to find some. I'd about kill for the chance.  Here some Pics of cans I've fixed. LEON.


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

After fixing


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

another


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

After adding new seam to fill hole & cleaning in acid.  I can fix extremely rusty dented cans. You don't find to many Olive Drab cans here in USA because most got exported over seas. THANKS, LEON.

 Sorry, trying not to hijack post


----------



## hemihampton (Jun 30, 2012)

Pic of only top half of rusty can dipped in acid. Was 100% totally unreadable & 100% rust. For experiment to show the wonders of acid I only dipped half the can to show before & after. Now half readable. IGA lemon lime sode. LEON.

 Sorry for hijack


----------



## hemihampton (Jul 1, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  daven2nl
> 
> I didn't grab it but will the next time I'm out.  It is incredibly fragile - there definitely was no OD paint left on it - I think the photo is misleading.  I'll poke around more the next time I'm there also to see if I can find more.


 

 I could of been seeing green moss growing on it? LEON.


----------



## grime5 (Jul 1, 2012)

i too wouldnt mind having a couple of those odd marked coke bottles.you havent seen any 1923 cokes there have you? thanks greg


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2012)

Dave ~

 Questions ...

 1.  Have you ever been to this location?

 Butlerâ€™s Store/Butlerâ€™s Emporium is situated on Route 4, next to Leonardâ€™s White House. It is the longest continuing business on Guam. Next to the building the concrete foundation is the only remnant remaining of the Coca-Cola bottling factory owned by the Butlers. In the 1920s, founder Chester Butler was the first person to receive a license to manufacture and sell Coca Cola outside the continental U.S.

 2.  Have you ever found or seen a Butler Coca Cola bottle? If so, how are they marked?

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jul 1, 2012)

Bob,

 Answer is no to both questions.  I need to visit the store, but my gut feeling is that the people who work there will be people who know little or nothing about the history.  

 It will have to happen in August when I get back from my deployment however.  No time to get over there this week.

 -Dave


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2012)

Dave ~

 Thanks.

 I think it would be interesting to see if we can figure out how the Butler bottles were marked. At present I don't even know the name of the town in Guam where the Butler bottling plant was located.Its possible that it is embossed on the base of the bottles, and if so, should make them easy to identify. And because the Butler's received their Coca Cola franchise in the 1920s, there should be a variety of different patents and dates. If anyone has an example of a Guam marked bottle or other clues in relation to this, please let us know.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2012)

PS ~

 No doubt the Butler's produced some fruit flavors as well as Coca Cola. I wonder what a Butler fruit flavor bottle looks like? They likely produced fully embossed bottles as well as acls.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 4, 2012)

Happy Fourth of July

 I have not been able to find a picture of or any specific references to whether or not a Butler/Guam Coca Cola bottle was marked on the base. However, I did discover the followng ...

 1.  Butler's Bottling Plant was established in 1915 and they received their Coca Cola franchise in 1923. 
 2.  The bottling plant was completely destroyed during WWII and was not rebuild afterwards.
 3.  Chester Butler died in 1952 and by way of a lawsuit was able to retain the Coca Cola franchise after the war. But I'm not sure why he wanted the franchise if he did not rebuild the plant nor continue to bottle Coca Cola. Maybe he intended to, but because of failing health was not able.  
 4.  Even though she did not bottle any Coca Cola after the war, either, Chester's wife was able to retain the franchise (I believe) until the early 1960s.
 5.  The original bottling plant was located in the town of Hagatna, Guam.
 6.  After the war the Butler Emporium/Store (not the bottling plant) was relocated to Sinajana, Guam, and is still open today and operated by a grandson named Gerry Champion.

 Based on what I know regarding Coca Cola Hobbleskirt bottles, the Butler's likely used three different variations during the course of their franchise years (1923-1944) which would have been as follows ...

 1.  November 16, 1915 ~ Made/Distributed between 1917 and 1928
 2.  December 25, 1923 ~ Made/Distributed between 1928 and 1938
 3.  Patent D 105529 ~ Made/Distributed between 1938 and 1951

 Its possible that Butler ... "Hagatna, Guam" Coca Cola bottles were not marked as such on the base. But, then again, its possible that they were. More research is needed to determine whether they were or were not marked.

 Here's everything I have been able to find so far related to the history of Chester Carl Butler and family ...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X7KJyjR9sY

 http://guampedia.com/chester-carl-butler/

 http://www.butlerfamilyguam.com/

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/guampedia/3988938626/

 http://www.guamdiner.com/reviews/review.php?review=305

 Below is a picture of what is described as ... "A 1945 Butler's Inc. (Store/Emporium) one-cent trade token from Guam."

 (But where-o-where are all of the Butler/Coca Cola/Hagatna, Guam bottles?)

 Bob


----------



## daven2nl (Jul 4, 2012)

Bob,

 Thanks for all the research!  I'll dig into it later - I'm fully into packing for my 4-week trip stateside coming up.  

 I am sure I have been poking around all the wrong places to find pre-war coke bottles.  There were only a few villages here at the time, and the bigger ones were completely leveled during the pre-liberation bombardment.  After the war they were bulldozed flat and rebuilt.  The areas I have been poking around were largely uninhabited aside from a few ranches/copra plantations until 1944.  For me - these areas are easy - as I can walk to them from my front door.

 The problem with the old villages is that the original town of Agana (capitol) was bulldozed flat and rebuilt.  The original village footprint is all asphalt/commercial buildings now, and the areas around the old village are heavily populated - not conductive to finding anything.  Likewise, the village of Sumay (the 2nd largest village) is now on the Naval Station and was completely blasted off the map in 1944.  It was never rebuilt - the whole area was bulldozed flat and turned into a military base with Quonset huts lined up everywhere.  The only remnant not disturbed is the graveyard - and I'm not digging there!

 I'll definitely visit Butlers when I return - I hope they have an area set aside with items from the Family's history.  I just don't have time to get down there before I leave.

 -Dave


----------



## hemihampton (Nov 5, 2012)

Did  Dave ever return from his 4 week deployment? Said he'd be back in August. It's now November & he never made a recent return comment? Anybody here from him? Wonder what Happened to him? LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 5, 2012)

Good question. He should be getting email notifications (like I just did) whenever someone post a reply ... ???

 Bob


----------



## RED Matthews (Nov 5, 2012)

While we are here on the CocaCola readers pages.  I have a 1996 Olympic Touch Relay CocaCola bottle; Atlanga Ga.  It is labeled Coca-Cola Classic and has a 5-3/4" x 1" x 3/8" wooden arrow through the sidewalls of the bottle.   I have no idea how they got the arrow through the two 7/16" holes.   Does anyone know anything about this.  RED Matthews  <bottlemysteries@yahoo.com>


----------



## Dannyrgardner (Oct 31, 2015)

*Re:  RE: Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions*

Help me with his one new to it the town is blytheville ark


----------



## Dannyrgardner (Oct 31, 2015)

*Re:  RE: Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions*

Same as above


----------



## hemihampton (Oct 31, 2015)

*Re:  RE: Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions*

Looks like OP was one hit wonder?


----------



## CreekWalker (Oct 31, 2015)

*Re:  RE: Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions*

Help me with his one new to it the town is blytheville ark. Made between 1938-51, value between $10-20 retail.


----------

