# shipwreck bottle finds



## barney00 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hi y'all - new to the group.  We recently discovered a sidewheel steamer in deep water off Florida.  There is a significant quantity of bottles spread across the bottom, which we believe to be the scattered top layer of cargo, with the remainder buried in the sediment.  We recovered a few of the exposed bottles as samples to try and help date the wreck.  Our current hypothesis is this may be a Civil War blockade runner called the C. VANDERBILT (aka BLACK JOKER), lost in 1862.   Can anyone help with the identifications of these bottles, perhaps providing date range, use/contents, and perhaps value? The most common bottle we saw was the Bordeuax-style wine bottle.  However, it is quite small at 9.5 inches in height. [attachment=photo 2(1).JPG]We also recovered bottles containing what might be brandied fruit; the bottle has a threaded glass stopper and saltwater does not appear to have intruded into the bottle.  You can still see the round fruit inside the bottle.[attachment=photo 1(1).JPG]I also recovered a big jar that is embossed WILLIAM UNDERWOOD & COMPANY on the bottom with 128 OZ around the shoulder.[attachment=photo 3(1).JPG]Thanks in advance for any information or insight you can share. Cheers,Mike


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## MichaelFla (Nov 1, 2014)

Do any of them have pontil marks?


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## hemihampton (Nov 1, 2014)

MichaelFla said:
			
		

> Do any of them have pontil marks?


If he is not a bottle collector you might have to show him or explain to him what Pontil means. When I first got in here did not know what it was? LEON.


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## barney00 (Nov 1, 2014)

Yes, the big jar has one, as does the fruit preserve bottle.  The wine bottles have deep punts so not sure if that would have a pontil scar or not.  The wine bottles are similar to those recovered off an 1865 shipwreck, though the lip is apparently different indicating they could be older.


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## sandchip (Nov 1, 2014)

Great finds, Mike.  Welcome and we appreciate you sharing your finds with us.  We look forward to seeing what else you come up with.


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## sunrunner (Nov 1, 2014)

the win look 1850s and the other jars almost look English , or European .


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## botlguy (Nov 1, 2014)

First of all, WELCOME to the forums and please don't be a one post wonder. Those are terrific finds, THANKS for sharing, you will be a great addition to our group.The William Underwood jar is listed in Red Book #8 as #2835 if you mean it's embossed on the HEEL of the jar rather than the bottom / base. My Red Book does not list it as pontiled but perhaps the later editions do. This would indicate that at least some of the cargo was American and dates to the 1860s. The wine bottles appear to be European made and from that same time period.I am completely unfamiliar with the inside screw stopper bottle and fascinated by it. Ya'll Come on back, hear!   Jim


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## MichaelFla (Nov 1, 2014)

I don't speak pontil as fluently as others here. I am under the impression that generally pontiled means Civil War and earlier, but I believe the type of pontil can help to date the bottles more accurately. Can you provide photos of the bottoms? By the way, congrats on the great finds, and I wish you luck in finding more. Hopefully soon I will be able to get out and dive some as well.I know you didn't ask, but the William Underwood jar has a collector's value of $300+.


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## MichaelFla (Nov 1, 2014)

Jim, the photo shows the embossing on the heel. But RB 10 also does not indicate that the 128 oz version is pontiled, though one of the other versions is, and one version is known with and without pontils. Perhaps this is an unknown version.


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## botlguy (Nov 1, 2014)

MichaelFla said:
			
		

> Jim, the photo shows the embossing on the heel. But RB 10 also does not indicate that the 128 oz version is pontiled, though one of the other versions is, and one version is known with and without pontils. Perhaps this is an unknown version.


Thanks for that info Michael, my tired old eyes couldn't see the heel embossing. It could be a new variant or an oversight. Whatever the case, it's a valuable jar, worth mid-three figures.     Jim


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## barney00 (Nov 1, 2014)

Here are some additional pics of the jar I just took...I think that's a pontil scar, yes? [attachment=photo 1(2).JPG]  [attachment=photo 2(2).JPG] [attachment=photo 3(2).JPG]


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## barney00 (Nov 1, 2014)

Here is a short teaser video of the wreck site...the stuff y'all are interested in is right at the end.  The bottom was littered with bottles...I can't wait to get back out there! [tube]https://youtu.be/qXNWYdsB1u8[/tube] Cheers,Mike <Edit: Video embedded>


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## MichaelFla (Nov 2, 2014)

That looks to me like an iron pontil scar. According to Bill Lindsey that _generally_ places it in the 1845 - 1865 time frame, which would be what you are looking for regarding date range.


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 2, 2014)

I agree about the Underwood and the pontil, it's the ship I'm having problems with. Some say it was an 1837 British ship and others say confederate while other books say it was Union commissioned during the war.. I tried not to mix the USS with the C Vanderbilt but it likely I did, it was very confusing.Can you shed some light on this?Thanks


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## barney00 (Nov 2, 2014)

Yes, you are mixing up two different ships.  Our ship is the C. VANDERBILT, built in 1837-1838 in NYC and operated by the Wilmington and Raleigh Rail Road Company as a packet steamer between Wilmington and Charleston.  In 1861 she was either seized, sold, or somehow acquired by the Confederacy and moved to New Orleans.  She made 3 successful runs between New Orleans and Havana.  At some point during these runs, she tried to throw off the USN and became British flagged and was renamed BLACK JOKER.  But that was a common ruse used by blockade runners... The other ship was the larger steamer VANDERBILT that served on the Hudson River, donated to the USN and served as the USS VANDERBILT.  But this was definitely a different ship.


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 2, 2014)

This was one thing from 1864. [attachment=Clipboard01.jpg]FROM


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 2, 2014)

Of coarse since Vanderbilt build the family empire starting with shipping and ferrying there may have been way more the just the two... or something like that.


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## barney00 (Nov 2, 2014)

Getting back to the bottles, are the 9.5" wine bottles pretty common and of little value?  Also, any ideas on that threaded lid preserve jar?  Here are some more pics of the top of the preserve jar...the stopper stem is chipped on this one.  The stopper is frozen in place...wondering if the pressure created a vacuum that locked the stopper down. [attachment=photo 1.JPG] [attachment=photo 2.JPG] [attachment=photo 3.JPG]


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## cowseatmaize (Nov 2, 2014)

I can't personally see that as threaded in the pictures but it is odd to have a glass stopper on that type of bottle. It doesn't look like a ground stopper either though.


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## MichaelFla (Nov 2, 2014)

I don't see the threads either. In the third pic it looks like you can see a glass layer in the seal. Maybe it was just placed in and then sealed with paraffin? I've never seen anything like that so I'm not familiar with it, but it's intriguing.


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## barney00 (Nov 2, 2014)

Maybe it's not threaded...I thought I read about antique threaded preserve bottles somewhere but could be wrong.  It is definitely sealed solid though.  No budging it...


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## cannibalfromhannibal (Nov 2, 2014)

MichaelFla said:
			
		

> I don't see the threads either. In the third pic it looks like you can see a glass layer in the seal. Maybe it was just placed in and then sealed with paraffin? I've never seen anything like that so I'm not familiar with it, but it's intriguing.


I agree, and also being a food bottle/jar, they were utilitarian in general and less likely a candidate for such a costly modification when a standard wax seal would suffice, which is what I think I am seeing. The glass stopper, while highly unusual, is not unseen. Last year I dug a small jar with a similar stopper containing olives and they were well preserved and dated to the late 1850's. My 2 cents worth is these are slightly predating the civil war and the wine bottles likely were bottled earlier and allowed to age, like 12 year old scotch. Not unusual to find different alcoholic bottles older than the context of their surroundings due to this aging factor. I'm sure more will be revealed as it gets excavated. Great finds and loads of potential for some really rare ones! Please post them when you can. Jack


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## goodman1966 (Nov 2, 2014)

That stopper is very unusual, but I like it ! Maybe it's stuck due to the sugar inside. Great stuff Mike !


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## adshepard (Nov 4, 2014)

Welcome and great finds.  I dive for bottles off the old steamship wharves in Maine.  Disovering an old steamship wreck is fantastic.  What is the condition of the wreck?  How deep is it? Tell us more! Alan  PS - I should be in the water this weekend looking for more artifacts.


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## coreya (Nov 4, 2014)

Love that preserve jar!!!


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## adshepard (Nov 4, 2014)

barney00 said:
			
		

> Here are some additional pics of the jar I just took...I think that's a pontil scar, yes? [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=2;665304&where=message&f=photo 1(2).JPG[/attachImg] [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=1;665304&where=message&f=photo 2(2).JPG[/attachImg] [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=0;665304&where=message&f=photo 3(2).JPG[/attachImg]


I just realized you are with AUE.  Nice video.  So many lionfish, it's unbelievable.  The sea floor is littered with bottles, that is so cool.  I bought an AUE t-shirt many, many years ago.  Alan


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## barney00 (Nov 4, 2014)

Thanks.  The wreck is largely intact, but obviously all exposed wood (majority of upper decks and hull) is gone.  What is left is the outline of the wreck, machinery, and cargo.  It is in deep water (i.e., well beyond recreational diving depths).  We suspect the cargo area has a lot to reveal, and plan to properly document the site prior to further examination. 





			
				adshepard said:
			
		

> Welcome and great finds.  I dive for bottles off the old steamship wharves in Maine.  Disovering an old steamship wreck is fantastic.  What is the condition of the wreck?  How deep is it? Tell us more! Alan  PS - I should be in the water this weekend looking for more artifacts.


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## RED Matthews (Nov 4, 2014)

Interesting finds'  I wish every one take the time to "print out the embossing of words that are on their pictured bottles and jars""  All we can do us guess about what might be identified.  You mentioned that the find was overly deep.  I have  no idea or experience of diving with today's equipment - but old bottles - aren't worth too much risk to anyone.    RED Matthews


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## barney00 (Nov 4, 2014)

RED Matthews said:
			
		

> Interesting finds'  I wish every one take the time to "print out the embossing of words that are on their pictured bottles and jars""  All we can do us guess about what might be identified.  You mentioned that the find was overly deep.  I have  no idea or experience of diving with today's equipment - but old bottles - aren't worth too much risk to anyone.    RED Matthews



We are not diving the site specifically for the bottles.  The wreck is drenched (pardon the pun) in history and we are working to document it.  The bottles are merely a part of what we expect to be a large and varied cargo from what could be an intact Civil War blockade runner.


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## Btl_Dvr (Nov 4, 2014)

Mikey,Glad to see you've made it over here to get some info on the bottles. Lotta knowledge over here.JayOh, and congrats again on the find!


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## RED Matthews (Nov 4, 2014)

Hello'  I would put some liquid wrench in the top. set it out in the sun and let the heat help get the sealant softened.  The sun could heat the contents enough to help lift it up..  It is a very interesting bottle, in my opinion.  RED Matthews


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## MichaelFla (Nov 4, 2014)

As part of an historic research team, I would think that when you open the preserves they would be tested to determine what, exactly, they are, as well as the state of preservation. I have occasionally heard of products dating from the 1820s to the 1870s being tested and found to be still theoretically viable as a food source (meaning they were still preserved and had not soured or rotted).


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## Rika (Nov 4, 2014)

I am new to this but could this help. "Underwood's history reaches even further back than B & M's, dating to 1822 when an Englishman named William Underwood started a small condiment business in Boston. Beginning with mustard, Underwood soon began selling ketchup, marmalade, cranberries, and pickles, which were stored in bottles and glass jars produced by Boston glassmakers. Underwood shipped his products all over the world, and by 1836 he had outgrown the production capacity of the local glassmakers and was forced to turn to canisters." http://www.fundingunivers...b-g-foods-inc-history/


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## barney00 (Nov 4, 2014)

MichaelFla said:
			
		

> As part of an historic research team, I would think that when you open the preserves they would be tested to determine what, exactly, they are, as well as the state of preservation. I have occasionally heard of products dating from the 1820s to the 1870s being tested and found to be still theoretically viable as a food source (meaning they were still preserved and had not soured or rotted).



That's what we hope to do, and why we are leery of using chemicals that could contaminate the contents.  I tried applying heat to the next with a hair dryer (thinking it might melt the wax seal, if there was one), but that was not successful.


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## barney00 (Feb 22, 2015)

Hi guys-It's been a while since I last posted.  We are planning to get back out to the wreck once the weather improves.  In the meantime, please check out a Kickstarter campaign we just launched to fund dedicated filming trips to document some insane wrecks (including the suspected BLACK JOKER), and also feature cool cave exploration, extreme spearfishing, and feature some various marine science topics. The Kickstarter page features just a few of the projects...we have many other cool sites up our sleeves! We hope you will support this project to produce the UA webisodes, which could hopefully lead to full network support.
 Please check out the link below, enjoy the promo video, and hopefully support the project. We have lots of cool incentives - from shipwreck books to artifacts (bottles!) - in recognition of your contribution. If you can't support the project financially, your assistance with sharing the link will also help us towards our goal. 

https://www.kickstarter.c.../underwater-adventures

 Cheers,
 Mike


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## glass man (Feb 22, 2015)

GREAT POST! YES WELCOME TO THE FORUM! Wish  I could see more different shapes of the bottles  in the video..especially some CATHEDRAL PICKLES [A FAV. OF MINE!]   Are the bottles you show pics. of the only ones you got from the dive? Probably will get some BLACK GLASS from there too...oh the  possibilities..KEEP THE INFO AND PICS. COMING! JAMIE


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## MuddyMO (Mar 3, 2015)

Ditto on everything said... nice jar! Sea water may have ate all the iron away?

There were way to many scorpions down there. Unfortunately prolific in the gulf. Good finds and safe diving to you!


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## barney00 (Jul 4, 2015)

Got back out to the wreck to do some more work...clearing a top layer of bottles in one area to inspect cargo below.  Bottles recovered included many more mini style Bordeaux bottles, large Champagne bottles, and more of the odd preserve bottles.  One of the corks of the mini Bordeaux bottles was in excellent shape and stamped "J.L. Duret, Bordeaux".  It appears Duret was a producer of fine olive oil, and likely was the contents of these small bottles.  Some of them had their contents congealed like butter, further supporting this theory.Here is a video we produced documenting the dives:https://vimeo.com/131561437Cheers,Mike


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## goodman1966 (Jul 4, 2015)

Thanks for the excellent follow up !  Please keep us it mind as you bring up the artifacts. We love this stuff !   Mitch


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## sandchip (Jul 5, 2015)

Thanks for the update and the excellent video!  Very informative.


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