# EARLIEST OWENS-ILLINOIS SODA BOTTLE MARK (NON-ACL)



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

Howdy ~

 I haven't been around lately - been busy with a variety of things, including catagorizing and photographing my extensive collection of approximately 500 Southwest related items. Just the postcards alone took me almost a week.

 Anyway, the following is something I have been wanting to do for some time now, and thought it might be interesting and fun to invite others to participate. What I would like to do is find as many of the earliest Owens-Illinois bottle marks as we can find - and the brands that used them. 

 As most of us know by now, the Owens-Illinois merger was officially approved on April 17, 1929. However, even though there are claims of the mark being used as early as April 20, 1929, there still appears to be come controversy surrounding this early of use. The <(I)> mark itself was not officially registered (#269,225) until April 1, 1930.

 According to Julian H. Toulouse, actual production began sometime in 1930. Irregardless of the exact year, it would pre-date acl (painted label) bottles which first started to appear around 1934/35. Of course, Duraglas would not join the Owens-Illinois team until 1940.

 So what I'm looking for are those "possible" 1929 examples if they exist - and definitely the 1930 thru 1933 examples.

 Here's are some links if you would like to brush-up on your Owens-Illinois history. And please note this is not intended to create a debate involving the dot / no-dot discussion. I think most of us will agree that if the bottles in question are non-acl and of the deco-style variety, more than likely whatever mark they have, whether it be a single 9 or a zero/0, the odds are it is either a 1929 or 1930 bottle. I realize that some bottlers were still producing non-acl deco styles as late as 1939, but I believe they will be far and few between.

                                      First let's just see what we can find with a single ...

                                                           9 ~ 0 ~ 1 ~ 2 ~ 3

           ... and if any 9s turn up, then we will take a vote as to whether they are 1929 or 1939.

                    The earliest example in my collection is the "Quality" bottle pictured below. 








 Bill Lockhart Articles[/align] [/align]http://www.sha.org/research_resources/newsletter_articles/lockhart.cfm[/align] [/align]http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/OwensIll_BLockhart.pdf[/align] [/align]Owens-Illinois Plant Locations/Numbers[/align] [/align]http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/owens.html[/align] [/align]Bottle Makers and Their Marks / Diamond Superimposed ...[/align] [/align]http://www.myinsulators.com/glass-factories/bottlemarks.html[/align][/align]

 I expect this to be a brief thread, as I am doubtful of many 1929 thru 1930 Owens-Illinois bottles turning up. Most will likely be 1931 thru 1933. And if you post, please show a picture of both the bottle itself (with a description) as well as a picture of the base. One picture is worth a thousand words. 

 Note: The first O-I plant location/number is No.1 Toledo, Ohio. But whether they actually made the very first bottles, I would expect so, but not sure.

                                         Thanks in advance to all who participate. 

                                                          SODAPOPBOB

 [ Quality ~ Fremont, Nebraska ~ Coca Cola Bottling Co. ~  3 <(I)> 1 ~ Fairmont, W.VA. ~ 1931 ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

[ Base ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

[ Owens-Illinois List ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

*1929s*

*        Do They Exist?*


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## TheCaliKid (Sep 29, 2011)

Where have you been? 

 I'm heading out to Randsburg on Saturday morning.....gonna get me some moar. There are three different shops there that sell bottles - mostly western ones I might add.



 You wanted to know where the 29's are, did you? Apparently in Randsburg:


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

Kid ~

 What do you mean "Where have I been?"  You only have 187 post compared to my 3184 post! Where have "you" been?  Lol  (Just kidding). []

 And if you like "wide" imagery, check out this website link that goes straight to a timeline of major events for *1929*.

 We still need to go bottle huntin' "one of these days."

 Take care,

 Bob

 1929 Timeline Link:  http://xroads.virginia.edu/~1930s2/time/1929/1929fr.html


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## TheCaliKid (Sep 29, 2011)

Wow, that site is really cool. Whoever put that together really put some effort into it. Bookmarking for later. 

 Well, yes, I have a low post count.....but hey, I don't have 500 bottles to go off and take pictures of either! So, there's your lack of motivation right there.  


 Yes, I would like to go hunting still. I think I have kinda given up on the "side of the road" method. I'd like to get into digging at remote sites. I hear the BLM is cracking down on activities like this tho.  

 If you could find out, would you like to try to dig in the Darwin area? I heard of a guy that does it the last time I was in Lone Pine and a lady who owns the rock shop there in town said her brother does it. (he lives in Monterey of all places)

 Knowing my luck, there won't be anything left to find, at least not soda bottles. There is a real finite supply, if you know what I mean. Besides, people have been scrapping those places for decades already. This isn't the  midwest or east coast folks! We have to remember too, there just weren't a whole lot of people out here in these remote places to begin with.


 Did you see my thread about the museum I went to in Laws yet?

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Some-bottle-pictures-from-Laws%2C-California/m-447904/tm.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

Kid ~

 Great tour of the museum and it's bottles. But I wouldn't call that a thread ... it's more like a "rope!" 

 Good job!

 By the way ... I wonder if Dean would send me a Ruby Red, too?  Lol []  Just kidding, Dean. Don't you dare offer me one! I'd feel terrible if you did.

                                                   Now back to the 1929'ers

                                                    Where the heck is one?

                                            Not in my collection, that's for sure!

                                                                  SBB


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## TheCaliKid (Sep 29, 2011)

Thank you for the complements! 

 Not to thread jack, but you should take a gander at my other two recent threads, since you've been absent as of late.


*The soda shards of our lives: *
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/The-soda-shards-of-our-lives/m-447900/tm.htm


*Kern County California bottle:*
 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Kern-County-California-bottle-%2D-need-helpimas-please%21/m-447886/tm.htm


 Well, I'm going to be gone for 5 days on an epic camping/road/hiking trip with my wife (girlfriend, but we might as well be married, actually we will be Common Law married soon if this keeps up.) to the eastern Sierra and environs. The aspen trees are gonna be turning colors! (for those of elsewhere in the nation - don't get mad, it's just that as a native-born Californicator I never get to experience seasons!) 

 When I get back, where is the best place on the forum to share vacation pictures?

 Here's a sneak "peak" (as we are going back to some of the same places.)


 A little slice of heaven @ 10,000 feet:


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 29, 2011)

Kid ~

 1.  This thread will likely be slow going anyway. I doubt many members are in a hurry to check every one of their non-acls for a "maybe" 1929/1930 Owens-Illinois mark. So don't worry about what you post here. Anything goes for now. But if it takes off and a lot of O-I bottles start showing up, we might want to cool it. 

 2.  Circumstances don't allow me to get out much these days. So I will have to take a rain-check on going anywhere. I haven't been able to go bottle hunting in months. Just a few antique shop finds.

 3.  That picture you posted looks like the Mineral King area. I was there years ago. Did you know that Walt Disney wanted to build a "Mountain Theme" amusement park there at one time? The Sierra Club put a stop to it.

 4.  I'll check out your other threads soon. I'm sure they will be worth a look.

 Have a good trip ... but I'd take your longjohns along if you plan on visiting anything at 10,000 feet this time of year.

 Later,

 Bob


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## TheCaliKid (Sep 29, 2011)

Observations duly noted sir! 


 That picture was taken in the Inyo National Forest. However, Kings Canyon National Park is just on the other side of that ridgeline in the picture.


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## bottleopop (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi Bob,

 I have a deco Big Shot 24oz with the big shot himself on it.  It's an Owens-Illinois bottle.
 The numbers on it are:

```
9   9
   2
```
I cannot find any dot.

 I vote that it is a 1939 bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 Check out this link. It claims Big Shot first came out in New Orleans in 1935. If this is correct, then your single digit 9 would be 1939. The site even shows a picture of the base of a Big Shot embossed bottle. I can make out the plant no. 3 for Fairmont, W. VA., but I can't make out the date number ... can you?

 I'd like to see a picture of the base on your bottle anyway if you feel like taking one and posting it.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 Link:   http://magicmonkeycollectibles.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/big-shot-clear-root-beer-soda-bottle-embossed-new-orleans/


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## madman (Sep 30, 2011)

HEY BOB GOOD QUESTION, IVE GOT A BUNCH OF EARLY OWENS BOTTLES ILL HAVE TO CHECK THE BOTTOMS, MY GUESS IS THAT THEY WERE STILL USING THE O IN THE SQUARE MARK  IN 29


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

madman ~

 Thanks for stopping by. That same thing crossed my mind. But the "Quality" bottle is the only early O-I I have ... except maybe a few Coca Cola hobbleskirts that I intend to take another look at today. I have to believe there are some 1929 O-I Cokes.

 The following may help regarding the different marks you spoke of. Note how the Illinois Glass Co. and the Owens Bottle Co. "sort of" combined their marks. * The [ ] is the best I could do to make a square.

 Bob


<I> - Mark of the Illinois Glass Company of Alton, Illinois in use between 1916 and 1929.​​[O] - Mark of the Owens Bottle Company in use between 1911 and 1929.​​<(I)> - Mark of the Owens Illinois Glass Co. Of Toledo, Ohio used upon the merger of the Owens Bottle Company and the Illinois Glass Company in 1929 and used until 1954. Associated with this mark will be numbers to the left, right, and bottom. The number to the left indicates the manufacturing plant. The number to the bottom is the mold number. The number to the right is the date number and can usually be added to 1930 to get the year of manufacture. Bottles from the early 1940s were marked with a single date digit to the right of the mark that may cause confusion with bottles manufactured in the early 1930s. Although some bottles from 1940 were simply marked with a 0, others were marked with a dot following the 0. This use of a dot to designate a 1940s age continued until a two digit date mark was instituted. Still, the single digit and dot designation may be found on bottles through 1946, though the two digit markings began in 1943. Further confirmation of a 1940s age is that stippling is commonly found on the base of these bottles, which is an indication that the glass is Duraglas, which began to be used in 1940. An exception to the dating formula was on very small medicine bottles where accompanying numbers were left off entirely or only a single date digit was used into the 1950s.​[/align]


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## madman (Sep 30, 2011)

OH YOU MEAN EMBOSSED SODA BOTTLES DUH ME, OK I CHECKED ALL MY TOLEDO STUFF MOST OF THOSE DONT HAVE AN OWENS MARK  THEY HAVE NUMBERS LIKE 19N OR 28N ON THE SIDE HEEL OR BASE, AND THE ONES THAT DO HAVE A LATER DATE  HERES THE CLOSEST I COULD FIND


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## madman (Sep 30, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> madman ~
> 
> ...


 YES BOB THANKS FOR THE INFO ON OWENS I GREW UP IN TOLEDO OHIO LOL!  I DONT THINK EITHER OF THE BOTTLES WEVE POSTED ARE FROM THE 30S  AFTER A QUICK SEARCH MY VARIETY CLUB BOTTLE IS FROM 1940 NO DOT AFTER 0.??? AND IM GUESSING YOUR BOTTLE TO BE A 41


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

madman ~

 What "brand" is that?  It looks like a good candidate (if that's a zero I see) for a 1930 Owens-Illinois.

 Is there a dot after the zero?

 Also, I wanted to mention that any 1929 Cokes will be on the so called Christmas bottles marked below the signature with ... December 25, 1923. Which were in production at least until 1938.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

madman ~

 Duh, myself. I see the "Variery Club" now!

 I realize there are exceptions ... but the reason I "suspect" my Quality bottle is a 1931 is because "most" of the Owens-Illinois bottles had Duraglas on them by 1941. Plus, "most" 1941 bottles would likely be acls.

 Bob


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## madman (Sep 30, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> madman ~
> 
> ...


BOB NO DOT AFTER THE ZERO BUT THE RESEARCH I DID SAYS THEY STARTED IN 35? YES ILL AGREE ABOUT THE ACLS IN 41 BUT THERE WERE STILL ALOT OF EMBOSSED BOTTLES USED DURING THAT TIME AS WELL


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

madman ~

                                                    Thanks ... and duly noted.

                        And as a reminder to everyone who takes an interest in this topic ...

 I will consider this thread a success if even one "confirmed" 1929 Owens-Illinois bottle can be found. It may require some additional research, (like madman just produced regarding his Variety Cub) but it will at least confirm or refute the claim that ... "Some Owens-Illinois bottles were produced as early as April 20, 1929."

                           Even a "confirmed" 1930 would make this country boy happy.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

Here's the quote and link to the primary source where I found the reference to the April 20, 1929 date.

 "The mark (#269,225) was registered on April 1, 1930, and the company claimed first use on April 20, 1929."  (Creswick 1987:154).

                 Note: I know nothing about this Creswick guy, or his 1987 book ... page 154.

                                Unless it's a typo and they meant to say April 20, 1930.

 But I do know of cases where some designs/logos were sometimes used before they were offically registered. 

 Link:  
 http://www.sha.org/research_resources/newsletter_articles/lockhart.cfm[/align]

 Scroll down to the title that starts with ... Common Owens-Illinois Marks. Quote is in first paragraph.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

P.S. ~

 But if official records prove that Owens and Illinois merged in 1929, why would they wait until 1930 to start producing bottles with the new  <(I)>  mark?

 Bob


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## StLouBrew (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi Bob,
 Unsure about the date on this one?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

St ~

 What is the number on the right? Is it a zero or a six? And is there a dot with it?

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## StLouBrew (Sep 30, 2011)

The number on right is a 0 and there is no dot.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

Saint ~

 Fantastic! It's a solid candidate for either a 1930 or 1940 bottle.

 Let's research the brand and see what turns up. Please post "everything" embossed on the bottle.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## StLouBrew (Sep 30, 2011)

The bottle is embossed Missouri on front and 3067-R on the rear near the base. And Missouri Soda St. Louis Mo. Cap. 1PT. 7 FL.OZ on the bottom.


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 30, 2011)

With the Hutter closure, I would say that one is 1930. I think it was mostly dead by 1940 or earlier. I have an embossed 1927 soda with the Hutter closure. 

 I don't really collect machine made stuff, but I think I have some ABM things around. I will look on the dates for them.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

Wheelah23 ~

 Please note where Saint said the same Missouri name was also on the "cap." (closure). Which, according to your evidence, adds one more point in favor of Saint's bottle being 1930. So far so good.

 Let's see what (if anything) turns up on the brand itself.

 Thanks again,

 Bob


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 30, 2011)

I am notoriously bad at knowing what people are talking about, but I think "Cap." was referring to the capacity embossing. I will look in a couple minutes, if I can even find where all my bottles are... [8|]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

Wheelah ~

 Duh! I'm sure you're right ... it's for capacity. I'm the one that's "bad," not you. (Lol) I'm sure Saint will come along shortly and tell us exactly what he meant. But I'm still giving his bottle ...

                                                             "Two Points"

 Bob


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 30, 2011)

Here's my entry for now. I have more in the attic, but the lights aren't working and it's really dusty up there... *cough*

 I am leaning towards 1941 for this one, but it has a "1" to the left of the mark, and no dot. The cap says "Snow Crest Bank Bottle". It has a coin slot in the middle. I think the whole idea of a bank bottle for kids to score coins in might be related to the Great Depression, which had started by 1931, so it might be from that year. 

 The base is embossed "SALEM MASS./ MADE BY SNOW CREST BEVERAGES, INC. PAT. PEND.". There's a "2" to the left of the O-I mark, a "4." below it, and a "1" to the right. The "1" shows visible evidence of having been altered, and I can see that a "0" was scratched out and the mold was re-engraved with a "1".


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## Wheelah23 (Sep 30, 2011)

base


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2011)

Wheelah ~

 Totally cool! Thanks. "Any" Owens-Illinois bottle counts, including banks. Especially if one happens to be a 1929. Another thing we may want to consider are the "early" (low number) plant/factory codes. In your case it is a 2 for Huntington, W. VA. There may be a clue with those numbers as well because I suspect they represent the first plants to produce bottles. Just a thought.

 I'm leaning toward your bank bottle as being ... originally 1930 / re-molded / re-sold in 1931. I still feel that "most" 1941 or later bottles will likely be stippled and have "Duraglas" on them. (With the noted realization that there are always exceptions).

 Bob


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## madman (Sep 30, 2011)

BOB IM REALLY INTERESTED IN THE OUTCOME OF THIS THREAD! I DUG IN TOLEDO FOR 20 YEARS,  DIGGING IN DUMPS FROM THE 1900S TO THE 1940S, I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT THE LOGO CHANGE OVER HAPPENED SO FAST,  BUT  IT MAY HAVE!?  MY GUESS IS THAT BOTH COMPANIES CONTINUED TO PRODUCE BOTTLES WITH THEIR OWN MARKS, FOR HOW LONG I DONT KNOW??? MAYBE A YEAR 6 MONTHS? BUT, IVE NEVER FOUND A OWENS ILLINOIS BOTTLE FROM 29,  BUT... IVE GOT TWO DUMPS IM DIGGING THAT DATE TO THE EARLY 30S, AND IM DIGGING TOMORROW, ILL BE LOOKING AT ALL THE BOTTOMS, THE CLOSEST THING I HAVE IN MY COLLECTION IS A VAPO CRESOLENE BOTTLE FROM 28


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 1, 2011)

MM ~

 Cool. Is that plant number 3 again?

 Bob

 Edit/Add ... I forgot ... that's an [O] for Owens only and would not be an O-I plant!


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## madman (Oct 1, 2011)

PLANT 8


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## OsiaBoyce (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
> 
> Here's my entry for now. I have more in the attic, but the lights aren't working and it's really dusty up there... *cough*
> 
> ...


 
 Ahhhhhhhhh the rare Snowcrest Bear. Held orange and grape flavored syrup.

 From 1931?.............................Nope.
 From 1941?.............................Nope.

 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 

 Can it be a 1951?.....................Yep.

 That's what that is..................... In addition, they did an Abe Lincoln in 1952.

 Also they are usually priced around $10.00.


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## StLouBrew (Oct 1, 2011)

Regarding the Missouri bottle, there are no markings on the top of the closure. Sorry bout the confusion. I can however make out what appears to be the letters GEM embossed on the underside of the closure. As far as the brand Missouri Soda, I haven't been able to find out anything. I think it may be a hard one to research.

 Steve H.


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## Wheelah23 (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  OsiaBoyce
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I am no expert on O-I bottles, but from what I know of their glass marks, that shouldn't be possible. By the 1940's, they had started using two number date codes, and certainly by 1951 they were. And after 1940, I'm pretty sure the bottles had "DURAGLAS" embossed on the bottom. And even more, the base isn't stippled or knurled, like they had by the 50's!

 Also, I don't think this bottle ever had a product in it. The metal cap has "Bank Bottle" written on it, and a distinct coin slot in it. There wouldn't be a hole in the cap if it had a product in it. The person who gave it to me said his grandmother used it to store coins during the Great Depression. I'd be happy to get $10 for this bottle, I've just had it sitting in a box collecting dust.


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## StLouBrew (Oct 1, 2011)

I have what I think is an example of a 1951 O/I bottle. It does have the two digit date code but no stippling and no Duraglas though Hmmm?
 Steve H.














 I forgot this is a Non ACL thread. I guess they have different markings?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 1, 2011)

I doubt I am the only collector who has ever noticed this before, and yet I cannot recall it ever being fully discussed. It involves what I call ...

                                  The "Straight-Sided" Owens-Illinois O vs. The "Oval" Owens-Illinois O 

 Some of you will know immediately what I'm talking about. Others may have to do some additional research and look at a bunch of bottles to understand it. But if you look close at some of the early (especially 1940s) Owens-Illinois marks, you will notice that the O in the Diamond is slightly straight-sided. Several bottles already posted on this thread show this distinction, including both my "Quality" bottle as well as the "Snow Crest" bottle. Even though I have done some extensive research over the years regarding this curiosity, I have never been able to find out much about it. The only thing I can say with any measure of certainity is that this so called straight-sided O generally appears on the older bottles, and especially on bottles from the 1940s. I'm not saying it doesn't appear on some of the 1950s bottles, because it does. But by the early 1950s it appears less frequently. The majority of the 1940s Owens-Illinos bottles in my collection have this straight-sided O. Whereas the majority of the 1950s bottles in my collection have the Oval-O. I have never been able to find a precise date when this change-over occurred, but it appears to have been intentional by the company. 

 The only reason I even mention this is simply to add a few more details to our ongoing education involving Owens-Illinois bottle marks, and that it might be something to look for and consider when trying to determine certain dates.

 SPB


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## OsiaBoyce (Oct 1, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: Wheelah23
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
  I'll stand by my 1950's date and offer these as proof.
http://www.nwmangum.com/Grapette/SnowCrest-1.html

http://www.renovateyourworld.com/SmartBuys/Snow_Crest_Beverages_Glass_Bear_Bank-p1075574.html

http://www.artsconnected.org/resource/75605/snow-crest-still-bank


 Now if ya know something they didn't...................but remember what ya said.
 "I'm no expert..............."  or "I'm pretty sure..............."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 1, 2011)

I knew some controversy would enter this thread ... but that's okay. It's all a part of the learning process. If we keep checking those soda bottles, I'm sure we will eventually come up with at least a few that we can all agree upon. And please bare in mind that the primary focus of this topic is to try and determine whether or not Owens-Illinois produced any 1929 bottles? And if not any 1929s, then maybe a few solid 1930s or 1931s. I'm confident they are out there, we just have to keep looking. And if anyone has a bunch of the Patent 1923 Coca Cola bottles, please give them a good looking at as well.   

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 1, 2011)

Anybody ever hear of or have this one? I researched it, but was only able to find out there were some reproductions made of it. Anyway, it might be a lead to a possible 1929er.

                         A.Yoerger & Brother, Alton, IL / Owens-Illinois Soda Bottle 1929 

 Bob


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

OK BOB, DUG THE 30S DUMP TODAY TO ADD TO THE CONFUSION, I FOUND THESE TWO SLICK PHARMS THE OWENS BOTTLE DATES 32 AND THE ILLINOIS BOTTLE DATES 36, BOTH WITH OI LOGO BUT MADE IN SEPERATE PLANTS??? EXPLAIN THIS................


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

AND YES THE BOTTLE ON THE BOTTOM HAS A DOT NEXT TO THE SIX BUT THERES NOWAY ITS A 46 NOTHING THAT NEW IN THE DUMP WEIRD............


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

THE TOP BOTTLE IS PLANT 13 AND THE BOTTOM BOTTLE IS PLANT 8 ACCORDING TO YOUR LIST NEITHER LASTED INTO 1940


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

mm ~

 Interesting. But do you realize how many scribbled notes I had to do to make sense and keep track of everything you just posted?  It temporarily made a pretzel of my brain.  Lol  []     

 1.  I know very little if anything about medicinal bottles. I'm not sure about the Illinois bottle, but I think there was a brand name of "Owens." Are you sure those are the glass maker's names and not brand names? It seems strange ... because both bottles have the <(I)>  Owens-Illinois mark.

 2.  Check the chart below. It's a little more accurate than the one I posted a picture of earlier. It's from the first Bill Lockhart link I posted. Please note where it says they are "approximate."

 Do you feel just because the dump did not produce numerous examples of 1940s bottles this is "proof positive" and that there is "no way" the 6. dot stands for 1946?  I agree it's curious - but I'm not sure it's an accurate and definite conclusion. I think the chart below supports the 6. for 1936 more than anything else, and adds another question mark in our learning process.

 3.  See chart below ... Plant No.8 = 1930 - 1939 ... Plant No.13 = 1930 - 1940.  Your Owens bottle fits in okay - but the Illinois bottle is the question mark.

 Bob



 Table 1. Owens-Illinois Glass Co. Plant Numbers and Dates of Operation* (from Toulouse 1971:395) 


 Plant Number
 Plant Location
 Dates of Operation

 1
 Toledo, Ohio
 1930-1937

 2
 Fairmont, West Virginia
 1930-present +

 3
 Huntington, West Virginia 
 1930-present +

 4
 Clarksburg, West Virginia
 1930-1944 

 6
 Charleston, West Virginia
 1930-1963

 7
 Alton, Illinois 
 1930-present +

 8
 Glassboro, New Jersey 
 1930-1939

 9
 Streator, Illinois
 1930-present +

 10
 Newark, Ohio 
 1930-1939

 11
 Evansville, Indiana 
 1930-1940

 12
 Gas City, Indiana
 1930-present +

 13
 Chicago Heights, Illinois
 1930-1940

 14
 Bridgeton, New Jersey
 1930-present +

 15
 Okmulgee, Oklahoma
 1930-1940

 16
 Cincinnati, Ohio
 1930-1932

 17
 Clarion, Pennsylvania
 1932-present + 

 18
 Columbus, Ohio
 1932-1948

 20
 Brackenridge, Pennsylvania
 1932-1940

 25
 Terre Haute, Indiana
 1934-1950

 26
 Muncie, Indiana
 1936-1949 

 15**
 Waco, Texas
 1938-present +

 20**
 Oakland, California 
 1946-present + 

 23
 Los Angeles, California 
 1949-present + 

 10**
 Atlanta, Georgia
 1960-present +

 21
 Portland, Oregon
 1960-present +

 4**
 Rockport, New York
 1962-present +

 8**
 New Orleans, Louisiana
 1962-present +

 22
 Tracy, California
 1962-present +

 11**
 North Bergen, New Jersey
 1963-present +

 5**
 Charlotte, Michigan
 1968-present +

 16**
 Lakeland, Florida
 1967-present +


 * All dates are approximate; Toulouse used a graph that was not precise.
 ** Plant numbers with two asterisks are ones where the number was reassigned after the original plant ceased operation.
 + Present=1971, the date of Toulouse's book, Bottle Makers and Their Marks.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

P.S. ~

 I forgot to mention that I contacted Bill Porter, and he said there are "no" 1929 Owens-Illinois Coca Cola bottles. But that there "are" Owens-Illinois Coke bottles dated 1930. Apparently Coca Cola did not jump on the Owens-Illinois band wagon until 1930. So if anyone is checking their hobbleskirts for a 1929, I wouldn't waste your time.

 Thanks again to all.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

Pop Quiz ... (for anyone).

 Date and identify the plant on this one ...


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## epackage (Oct 2, 2011)

Huntington WV 1959 ??


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

epackage ~

 Thanks.

 I just realized the two Owens-Illinois plant charts conflict. Check them out and you will see what I mean. The last one I copy/pasted direct from the website. So now I'm not sure which one is accurate.

 But you still get this ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

Regarding what I was saying about the "O" in the early Owens-Illinois <(I)> mark looking "straight-sided," this is a snippet from one of Bill Lockhart's articles ...

 There was a slight difference in the Owens-Illinois logo during the 1930s. The mark tended to be taller and larger, and the oval is maybe a bit more 'squared' or 'vertically rectangular' at least ... compared with later ones. By the 1940s, however, marks became more refined and smaller. This trend toward reduction in line thickness and increased clarity of the mark and codes continued into the 1980s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

I found this on the Internet, and am trying to make sense of what they guy means where he says ...[/align] [/align]If one adds the date number to 1930, the total was the date of manufacture. On a diamond-less mark, the number should be added to 1954. The mold number was located under the mark.[/align] [/align]Link:  
http://www.museumsofwv.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17:dating-owens-glass-bottles&catid=2:ask-a-curator&Itemid=7[/align] [/align]For me it's a little confusing. What do you make of it? Is it that simple, and does his formula really work? [/align] [/align]Bob
 [/align]


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## andy volkerts (Oct 2, 2011)

I used to work at the owen illinois plant here in Tracy california for a time, and can tell you guys that at one time there was an Owens glass and a separate co called illinois glass and they combined to produce Owens Illinois glass Co. i know that they have made all sorts of bottles each in there own right, and many more as the combined outfit. we made quart mayonaise bottles for a time in tracy


> ORIGINAL:  madman
> 
> OK BOB, DUG THE 30S DUMP TODAY TO ADD TO THE CONFUSION, I FOUND THESE TWO SLICK PHARMS THE OWENS BOTTLE DATES 32 AND THE ILLINOIS BOTTLE DATES 36, BOTH WITH OI LOGO BUT MADE IN SEPERATE PLANTS??? EXPLAIN THIS................


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

OWENS BOTTLE MACHINE COMPANY TOLEDO OHIO  LOOK THE WAY OWENS IS WRITTEN


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

mm ~

 It seems strange they would put "Owens" and "Illinois" seperately like that on the bottles, but at the same time use the combined Owens-Illinois mark ...  <(I)>   ?   I guess we still have a lot to learn about this stuff.  

 Additionally ...

 1.  I have Julian Toulouse's original book where it seems everyone quotes from. And according to his book, the chart I posted a picture of on my opening pages of this thread is the correct one. The one in the book and the one I posted are identical. So it appears that Bill Lockhart got a few of them mixed up when he wrote his article ... that is unless Toulouse was wrong and Lockhart was correcting him. I may contact Bill Lockhart and see what he has to say about it.

 2.  I have been experimenting with that museum guy's dating formula, and have (I think) figured out what he is saying. It appears the "date numbers" he is referring to are the ones on the "Owen's" bottles only and not those of the combined Owens-Illinois date marks. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. But the problem for me is, I don't have enough "Owens only" [O] soda bottles to do an accurate test. Maybe some of you do, and can tell us if his formula works on those Owens only soda bottles, or not.

 Thanks.

 SPB


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

bob the only soda bottles ive seen with the o in the square base, are slick quart crown tops prob used for grape juice or somthing else? most of the early owens bottles were used for food products, generic meds the only soda bottles ive seen have the <O> embossed on the base although i do have a soda with the illinois diamond on the base..........


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/owensbottlecompany.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

mm ~

 What do you make of that guy's formula? Does it make sense to you? If you do as he suggest with the regular (single digit) date numbers, it still doesn't distinguish 1930s bottles from the 1940s.

 For example ... According to his formula,  if we use  11 <(I)> 2

 Single date number ... 2
Add to 1930 
 = 1932

 But how do we know it's not 1942?  He doesn't mention using any dots. (Confusing)

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

> ORIGINAL: madman
> 
> http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/owensbottlecompany.pdf


 

 mm ~

                                Thanks. I've seen that before, but will read it again.

                        So where the heck is a picture of a ... for sure ... Owens-Illinois  

                                                   (example) ... 8 <(I)> 0  

                                      (Not counting Bill Porter's hobbleskirts) 

*                    1930 Soda Bottle?*


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## madman (Oct 2, 2011)

heres a 1930 cascade ginger ale bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 2, 2011)

Great! Thanks. But it's not a ...


*Owens-Illinois*

*                      <(I)>*


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## bottleopop (Oct 6, 2011)

SODAPOPBOB-

 I have 144 Owens-Illinois deco bottles in my collection.  (2 are NDNRs; a 1968 and a 1976.)
 I categorized and counted them by their O-I markings.

 In the categorization, I used some abbreviated names as follows:
 If the number to the right of the O-I mark has 1 digit, I call it an s-digit.
 If the number to the right of the O-I mark has 2 digits, I call it a d-digit.
 The number below (or sometimes above) the O-I mark I call the mystery (number).
 The number to the left of the O-I mark, I call the plant.

 Dots appear on either the s-digit, or the mystery, or both, or neither, so I categorized accordingly.

 I believe that the date rule is:
 s-digit with no dot:  s-digit + 1930
 s-digit with dot: s-digit + 1940
 d-digit: d-digit + 1900

 Here are the types and their counts:
 s-digit & dot, mystery & dot: 6
 s-digit & dot, mystery: 5
 s-digit, mystery & dot: 16
 s-digit, mystery: 52
 s-digit & dot: 3
 s-digit: 20
 d-digit, mystery & dot: 6
 d-digit, mystery: 22
 d-digit: 14

 I did a few excel pivot tables:

 The plants and their counts:
 2: 1
 3: 50
 4: 2
 7: 13
 8: 1
 9: 49
 11: 1
 14: 1
 15: 2
 20: 7
 21: 13
 23: 1
 24: 1
 27: 1 (Hollywood, CA 24oz. Bireleys)
 29: 1 (Hawaii bottle)
 Note: some numbers were for one plant that shut down and then used in another plant.  None of the plant tables I've seen show all this, but here on the bottom right of the page numbered 78 is a list of them in paragraph form.  Possibly some of my plant 21 bottles were from the San Francisco #21.

 Mystery numbers and their counts:
 1: 53
 2: 12
 3: 5
 4: 2
 5: 3
 6: 1
 7: 1
 9: 1
 10: 1
 1.: 27
 2.: 1
 none: 37

 Double-digit and their counts:
 43: 1
 45: 2
 46: 3
 47: 5
 48: 6
 49: 1
 50: 2
 51: 1
 52: 2
 53: 4
 54: 3
 55, 56, 58, 60, 62, 64, 65, 66: 1 each
 68: 2
 69, 76: 1 each

 Single-digit and their counts:
 0: 4
 1: 13
 2: 8
 3: 3
 4: 8
 5: 11
 6: 16
 7: 9
 8: 7
 9: 9
 1.: 3
 2., 3., 4., 5.: 2 each
 6.: 1
 7.: 2

 Slight caveat - in my very earliest years of collecting, I may have missed the dot, but I think this affects only a very few if any of these bottles.  I will try to find out.  I decided to go ahead and post this for now anyway.  I have checked a few of the handy ones and there is no dot, as recorded.

 Photos of at least some of the 9-1-2-3 are coming.
 Names and a bit of a description of each of those are coming too.

 The only one that I think might have a verrry slight chance of being a 1929 is a bottle called Erie.
Here is why; in the first paragraph of page 2.  I think this bottle is a 1939 anyway.
 The O-I marking on this bottle is: 3 OI 9 with mystery digit: "1.".
 The other writing on it:  Erie, Erie Bottling Wks. Utica, N.Y. Contents 6Â½ FL. OZ. Registered.  The decoration is a simple ice crackle design on 95% of the bottle; otherwise, just one ring at the bottom border of the crackle zone.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 I realize the time and effort it takes to accomplish the results you posted, and I truly appreciate it on behalf of everyone concerned. I like your system once you get the hang of how it works. We will be looking forward to hearing from you again soon with the pictures you mentioned. It sure would be cool if there was a 1929 Owens-Illinois ... and if not a 1929 ... then a for sure 1930. I still think my Quality bottle is a 1931. But will continue to research it to be sure.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## celerycola (Oct 6, 2011)

Great go-with for this discussion:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-BOTTLE-1923-Paperweight-Bust-FOUNDER-OWENS-BOTTLING-MACHINE-/370548543768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56466a1118#ht_1761wt_1254


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## celerycola (Oct 6, 2011)

1923 Owens Bust


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

Celery ~

 Thanks. That is a great go-with. I put it on my watch list. Even though the bust is marked with 1923 when Owens died, I wonder if it's actually that old, or something more recent? The seller doesn't say.

 Here's another so called go-with. It's an ad from 1940 when Duraglas joined the Owens-Illinois team. I always thought the "smooth lips" part was kind of funny. It suggest that before Duraglas came along crown closures were rough textured.

 SPB


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## celerycola (Oct 6, 2011)

Duraglas suggests to me that the bottles do not easily chip.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

Celery ~

 Yeah, you're probably right. I can't remember the details, but I think Duraglas did have some secret formula for durable glass.

 Here's an Owens-Illinois bottle I found yesterday that claims to be made in 1929. It's called ...

                                                       "Hospital Liquids Inc."

 ... which could have contained any number of different solutions. But whether it is a true-blue 1929, I really can't say. But it might be.

 SPB

 [ Entire Bottle ~ Base Photo Next Page ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

This one needs more research

                                                              12 <(I)> 9

                            Plant number 12 ~ Gas City, Indiana / Single Digit 9 = 1929 ?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

The only thing I can say about the Hospital bottle that may be a clue of some kind, is that it appears to have a "suction scar" that was caused when the bottle was removed from the glass making machine. The example shown here is the base of a "Owens Glass" bottle with the O in a box [O] mark. It states the mark was used between 1919 and 1929. But I'm not sure how long the "suction scars" continued to appear on bottles, and whether or not it was somehow eliminated when Owens-Illinois merged. But the main point of interest here is that the Hospital bottle appears to have this scar. Which brings up the question ...

                             Did these scars still appear on 1939 Owens-Illinois bottles?

                   If not ... then the Hospital bottle could very well have been made in 1929

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

For those who are interested in reading more about these suction scars, go to this website and scroll down to the title ...

                                               "Owens Machine Suction Scars"

 Then read it and see what you think. If the law of averages has a part in this, I suspect the Hospital bottle may very well have been made in 1929 ... but then again, maybe not. See what you think. And be sure to watch the short video at the end of the article. It shows an early bottle machine in action.

 Hey Celery ~  Is that Mr. Owens at the beginning of the Video?  Could be?

 Thanks.

 SPB

                                 Link:  http://www.sha.org/bottle/bases.htm#Suction Marks


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 6, 2011)

Celery ~

                                  I just re-read the article myself where I found this ...

                 Michael Owens is the second person shown picking up and examining a couple beer bottles.


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## madman (Oct 6, 2011)

bob the hospital bottle is a 39,  yes owens illinois bottles still had the suction scar in 39, here are two that i know for a fact 39s, i know also for a fact that in 1940 theres a dot or period after the date code at least till 42. ive dug a 39 - 42 dump for 5 years


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## madman (Oct 6, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Celery ~
> 
> ...


very cool


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## madman (Oct 6, 2011)

i think i have a 39 duraglas jar also


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## epackage (Oct 7, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> 1923 Owens Bust


 I like this one Dennis, here is an earlier one for Owens....Jim


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## wam (Oct 7, 2011)

Somewhere, among my files, I have some of the early letters of the Owens Co., and the Root Glass Co. from the 20s & 30s.


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## madman (Oct 7, 2011)

LOVE TO SEE THOSE WAM!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 7, 2011)

Wam! Bam! Me Too!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2011)

Here's a little something for your weekend's entertainment ...

 Link #1 ... Does this person know what they are talking about, or are they just guessing? And can anyone make out the marks on the bottom? I can't! I wonder if they are using the number 3 for the date, or if there is a zero on the right that I can't make out?

 Link: 
http://www.reddsquare.com/rosaleagallery/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1042[/align] 

 Link #2 ... Check out these different Owens and Owens-Illinois marks. Some of them I have never seen before. Just move your cursor over each logo and it will display the various dates. Except the one I am most interested in doesn't give a date. Dang! Does anyone know how to find this link's home page? It just came up under some images I was looking at.

 Link:  
http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/exhibits/oi/Gallery/Logos.htm[/align] [/align]Lastly ... Check out the chart below that I found. It has information I have never seen before about what the various Owens-Illinois marks stand for. It sounds like whoever put this chart together knows what they are talking about, but I'm really not sure. If it's correct, then I consider it a major break-through in my ongoing research as to how to properly date O-I bottles. Of particular interest to me is where the chart states ...[/align] [/align]                                             1.  Digit(s) above logo represent ...  Container "Style"[/align]                                             2.  Digit(s) below logo represent ...  Mold "Cavity"
                                              3. The "Closed" dates
 Number[/align] [/align]SPB[/align] [/align]                                                            [/align] [/align] [/align]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 8, 2011)

I'm just adding this stuff as I find it for documentation. I will try and figure out what it all means later. This first entry will help with some of the 1940 Owens-Illinois bottles. I'm still searching for a copy of the actual trademark application, but not sure yet if one even exist. I like the exact date it mentions. But I'm not sure if the word "use" means on the bottles themselves or in advertising. ???



> In their trademark application, Owens-Illinois said the first use of Duraglas was ...
> 
> September 4, 1940.
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2011)

I contacted Bill Porter today and he sent me a list with 43 Coca Cola hobbleskirts, all of which were the Patent 1923 bottles from 22 different states. Every one of them was made at the Owens-Illinois plant no.11 in Evansville, Indiana. All are basically marked the same and look something like this ...

                                                              11 <(I)> 30E

                         All have a double-digit 30 for 1930. The E stands for Evansville.

 But we need to be reminded that those early Coca Cola bottles are exceptions to the rule. If you have read Bill Lockhart's Owens-Illinois article, you will recall he discussed these Coca Cola bottles seperately, and that the Coca Cola Company had spefic guidelines regarding the manufacturing of their particular bottles. And because of their requirement to have their bottles made with double-digit date codes, it appears to me they had the smarts to foresee problems with single-digit dates. Of course, Coca Cola was (and still is) the big dog in town, so whatever they wanted, they got! Can you imagine how big of an account a Coca Cola account must have been? 

 So even though I have yet to see another "for sure" 1930 Owens-Illinois soda bottle, because of Bill Porter's invaluable assistence, we know for certain now that they do in fact exist. Thanks, Bill. You're the man! 

 Bob


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## jskirk (Oct 9, 2011)

I have this commemerative Owens Illinois Bottle from the Gas City Plant 12showing on the front Owens Illinos 1892-1982. The Back states   "Last OI Bottle on the AQ Machine, J.L.Thompson Bottle Co." Then it has all the logos and datres used underneath them.  The bottom is embossed Last Owens Bottle and it has all the initials of the workers on the line . This also has embossed  DEC. 1982 Gas City Indiana.


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## jskirk (Oct 9, 2011)

pic


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## jskirk (Oct 9, 2011)

pic


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## jskirk (Oct 9, 2011)

pic


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2011)

jskirk ~

 That's a totally cool bottle. I've never seen one like it. I have been checking some stuff and comparing it to the dates on the chart I posted. Your 1982 Gas City date and the 1983 on the chart are different, but close enough. I discovered that some of the dates on the chart are actually when the plants either sold or were shut down for good, and not necessarily when the last day of production occurred like your commemorative bottle. That's a true keeper. Thanks for sharing.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm adding a new aspect to this topic. Which is ...

                                                            In Search of ...

                                "The earliest Owens-Illinois "Double-Digit" date code"

      Based on my research, and that of others, the earliest O-I double-digit date code will likely be ...

                                                               43 = 1943

 We don't have to worry about a dot/no-dot this time because the double-digits speak for themselves.

 I have yet to see a 43 (or earlier if they exist) but I do have a 44 = 1944 shown below. Which is a ...

            "Country Boy" acl ~ San Diego, Ca. ~ Owens-Illinois ~ Plant *No.20 Oakland, CA.

                                        *Reassigned in 1937 from Brackenridge, PA.

      If you have a double-digit that dates anytime prior to about 1945, please show us a picture of it. 

 Thanks.

 SPB

                                                                   4304-G
                                                                20 <(I)> 44
                                                                       7


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2011)

Full Image ... (Considered one of the Holy Grails for San Diego collectors)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 9, 2011)

Point of interest  ...

 There will likely be lots of "single-digit" 1943s, but my primary interest here is with the "double-digit" examples.

                                                               [ Below ]

                     "Royal Crown ~ Single-Digit 3 = 1943 ~ Honolulu, Hawaii ~ Duraglas"

                             Now let's see if we can find a 1943 or earlier "Double-Digit"


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## bottleopop (Oct 10, 2011)

That Royal Crown base looks like a 3 with no dot so how is it a 1943?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 Good question. And one that may never be fully understood until someone eventually breaks the Owens-Illinois dating codes completely. Meaning ... there are almost always exceptions to the rule. Meaning ... some of the 1940s dates don't have dots. Most do, but not all. It's puzzling. But in this particular case we have three major factors to support (confirm) the Royal Crown as being 1943 ...

 1.  It is also marked with "Duraglas" which did not start appearing on O-I bottles until 1940.
 2.  It can't be 1933 because it's an acl (painted label) which did not start being produced until 1934/35.
 3   Which only leaves 1953 ~ But I have never ever seen a single-digit 1950s O-I bottle. By 1950 O-I
     was well established into using double-digit date codes. A 1953 would look like this  13 <(I)> 53

 Note: Another confusing aspect of the codes is that not all post 1940 O-I bottles have Duraglas.

 I hope this answers your question.

 Thanks.

 SPB

 Here's the whole bottle ...


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## bottleopop (Oct 10, 2011)

It does answer my question!  []


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## bottleopop (Oct 10, 2011)

I might have an answer to this, but I don't have enough bottles from some plants.  Perhaps others can fill in the substantial statistical gap.

 That being said, here's a pivot table of date field data on O-I bottles.  (The O-I bottles not included here are the double-digit date field ones.)  Across the top are the plant numbers represented in the data.  Down the left side are the date field contents, with the 'dot dates' listed in the bottom section.

 Although the data here isn't enough as I've said, there is an indication that only O-I glass plant numbers 3 and 9 used the dot indicator for 1940s.  Of course it could also be that my collection for whatever reason has no bottles from the 1940s from the other plants (less likely, I think).  The main problem though, is that I have 76 bottles from these 2 plants and only 26 bottles from the other 9 plants.

 However, this kind of thing may be a way to solve the issue if there's more data available.

```
s-digit					Plant Number						Total
 	2	3	7	8	9	11	20	21	24	27	29	
 0			1		3							4
 1		5			7	1						13
 2		2		1	5							8
 3		1			2							3
 4		5	1		1			1				8
 5	1	5	1		3		1					11
 6		4			2			10	1			17
 7					7			2				9
 8		3			1		2			1		7
 9		5			2		1				1	9
 1.		1			2							3
 2.		1			1							2
 3.		1			1							2
 4.					2							2
 5.					2							2
 7.		1			1							2
 Total	1	34	3	1	42	1	4	13	1	1	1	102
```


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 It took me a minute to make sense of your chart, but I finally figured it out and like it. When you get the time, could you please show us some clear and focused pictures of the bases on all of the bottles with 0 -1 - 2 - 3 date codes, both with dots and without? In the meantime I will study your data more closely and see if something jumps out at me that I can't see at the moment, but may fall into a pattern of some kind.

 Thanks. I really appreciate the time and effort it took for you to compile the list.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

P.S. ~

 What I will be doing first is to compare your dates and plant numbers to the "closed" dates on the last chart I posted and see if something can be found there. You may want to do the same and we can compare notes later.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

P.S. ~ P.S.

 I forgot to mention that you might want to compile a seperate list or add to your existing one which (if any) of the bottles are acls (painted label). Irregardless of the date codes, an acl would not date any earlier than 1934-1935.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 I converted your chart to a picture format where it can be saved and printed more easily for those that might like to work with it.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 10, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 I printed out and have been studying your chart. In case I wasn't clear regarding what I said earlier about painted label bottles, what I meant is that any acl with a 1 2 3 on it (irregardless if there is a dot or not) can be immediately eliminated as representing a 1930s bottle. There were no 1931 - 1932 - 1933 painted label soda bottles. In fact, there is no 1934 that I am aware of, but there may be. The earliest "confirmed" acls start with 1935.

 Bob

 Here are the top 10 "Earliest/Confirmed" Acls, ranging from 1935 to 1937. No 1934 has ever been found.


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## bottleopop (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi Bob,

 I don't collect ACLs so I have no data on them to offer.  Sorry about being so tardy with photos.  I have been having a major battle with my camera because I can't download pictures from its SDHC card.  Bottle pictures are difficult enough that I don't want to resort to using a phone camera yet.

 I certainly see your point of using the start of ACL on bottles as a borderline of possible dates.

 There have been a few challenges proposed in this thread so I'll add one more:  *does anyone have an example of an Owens-Illinois bottle with a date field* (the number to the right of the O-I trademark) *that has a dot* (like 8.) *that is NOT from O-I plants #3 or #9*?  (The plant number is to the left of the O-I trademark underneath the bottle).


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## StLouBrew (Oct 11, 2011)

Hi bottleopop, I have a couple beer bottles from plants 6 and 7 that have a dot after date code.















 Steve


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 11, 2011)

bottleopop ~

 Don't give up the ship just yet. Meaning ... the biggest "challenge" with these kind of threads is getting members interested enough to look at the bottoms of hundreds of bottles. I'm the one who started this thread, and I'm just lazy enough not to want to do that. It doesn't mean I never will, only that it will take "time." So hang in there and be patient. We both may eventually get some answers to our questions. There may be a ton of 1930 O-I bottles out there, and as time goes by members may remember this little thread the next time they dust off their bottles, and say ...

           "Hey! Whatta ya know! Here's a 1930 O-I bottle. I bet Bob would like to see this one."

                                                   And I would like to see it!  

                                                               Thanks.

                                                                   []

                                                         SodaPatientBob


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## bottleopop (Oct 12, 2011)

No worries here.  []

 So my current theory is:  Except for plant numbers 3 and 9, no O-I plants added a dot to the date side of the O-I mark, except for Duraglas bottles made in O-I plants 6 and 7.


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## madman (Oct 14, 2011)

MEMPHIS BOTTLE  ILLINOIS 29????


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## madman (Oct 14, 2011)

BASE MEMPHIS TENN QUALITY BEVERAGES  COULD THE NUMBER ON THE RIGHT BE THE DATE? NOT SURE


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 14, 2011)

madman ~

 That's a good one ... and yes, I believe the 29 is the date. But instead of it being one the first Owens-Illinois bottles, it's one of the last Illinois Glass bottles.

               I within a diamond ... Illinois Glass Company, Alton, IL. Mark used 1915 to 1929.

 But it's one to earmark, because it is a transition bottle, and one I didn't think of. Another good one to see would be a 1929 Owens Glass bottle. Their mark is the O in a square [O]

 Thanks a lot. I will be saving a picture of your bottle for my records.

 SPB


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## madman (Oct 15, 2011)

BOB WHAT IVE FOUND HERE IS RE ENFORCEMENT THAT THERES NO 1929 OWENS ILL SODA BOTTLE, JUST A ILLINOIS OR OWENS BOTTLE FOR THAT YEAR,  AND STILL OPERATING AS DIFFERENT PLANTS INTO THE 30S  WITH STILL DIFFERENT LOGOS AS I PROVED WITH THE MEDICINES, IVE NEVER SEEN A EMBOSSED SODA WITH A QWENS MARK YET, BUT THEY EXIST ALONG WITH THE ILLINOIS BOTTLE IN 1929


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## madman (Oct 15, 2011)

ALSO IN THE LATE 2OS OWENS WAS PRODUCING LOTS OF FOOD CONTAINERS KECTHUPS , MUSTARDS, MEDICINES, THE ONLY EARLY O IN THE SQUARE OWENS BOTTLES IVE FOUND WERE SLICKS QUART AND SMALLER, GRAPE JUICE BOTTLES WELCHES JR INCLUDED


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## carobran (Oct 15, 2011)

did you get my PM??..[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 15, 2011)

madman ~

 I hear ya, and agree there are probably no 1929 Owens-Illinois soda bottles. Aside from Bill Porter's Coca Cola hobbleskirts, there are probably very few, if any, O-I bottles that are marked 1930. Which is the primary focus of this thread ... meaning I would settle for just one 1930 if it exist. As for 1931 and later, I'm hopeful that a few of those will turn up eventually. Which brings me full circle again to my so called 1931 "Quality" bottle. Other than knowing for certain when the Coca Coca bottling plant opened in Fremont, Kansas, I can see no way of proving nor disproving that it's not a 1931 bottle. If someone can prove to me that it's not a 1931 bottle, I will glady accept that and then move on to searching for a 1932 Owens-Illinois soda bottle.

 Thanks.

 SPB

 carobran ~

 If your question is addressed to me and not madman, I did not get a PM from you. I checked my PM status and it's only at 50%. So if you sent it to me, it should have been received with no problem. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 15, 2011)

Correction ...

 I meant Fremont, Nebraska


----------



## madman (Oct 15, 2011)

AFTER LOOKING AT 3000 BOTTLE BOTTOMS, LOL, I BELIEVE YOUR BOTTLE MAY BE A 31, I LOOKED AT HUNDREDS OF BOTTLE BASES YESTERDAY, MOST BOTTLES HAVE A DOT AFTER THE DATE CODE INDICATING THAT THERE POST 1940, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM DO, I SAW SEVERAL EXAMPLES OF 1940S BOTTLES THAT DID NOT HAVE A DOT, HERES 2 MORE EARLY 30S BOTTLES 30- 31  SORRY NO BASE PIX


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 15, 2011)

madman ~

 I hope you mean ... NO BASE PIX "YET"   We just gotta see them bases! Then it will be etched in stone. Especially if the plant numbers closed before 1940 and 1941. (See chart I posted earlier).

                             We'll be waiting ............................................. patiently. []

                                                                Thanks.

                                                                  Bob


----------



## bottleopop (Oct 16, 2011)

madman -

 Were there any O-I bottles with a dot on the date that did not have plant numbers 3 or 9 and that were not Duraglas?


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## celerycola (Oct 17, 2011)

Probably Alice Creswick who painstakingly researched and wrote the Fruit Jar books for many years.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Here'sÂ the quote and link to the primary source where I found the reference toÂ the April 20, 1929 date.
> 
> ...


----------



## celerycola (Oct 17, 2011)

Illinois Glass 1930 (no Owens) 

 Kolatona Bottling Works from Huntington Ind marked 30 S for Illinois Glass plant at Streator IL.

 I have an almost identical Kolatona Bottling Works bottle marked 11 <(I)> 1 for Owens-Illinois Evansville plant 1931.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 17, 2011)

Celery ~

 Thanks for the info. Especially about the Kolatona bottle. That will chalk up one for sure 1931 Owens-Illinois bottle. According to the chart I keep referring to, the Evansville, Indiana plant number 11 closed in 1939. So if the chart is correct as I believe it is, then there is no way the 1 on your Kolatona bottle could be for 1941. Any chance of seeing a picture of the base? You know, just for the official record?   

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob

 P.S. ~ My apologies to Alice Creswick for assumming she was a guy.

 Hey madman! Where's your pictures?  (Lol)


----------



## madman (Oct 17, 2011)

yup!


----------



## celerycola (Oct 17, 2011)

Heres a series of Illinois Glass bottles from 1926 to 1931, all from the Kolatona Bottling Works of Huntington IN. Kolatona was a Celery and Kola drink that originated in Huntington in 1894 and was sold in bottle types from 1890's blob top to 1950's acls. The earlier Kolatona bottles I have from Huntington are a couple of amber blobs and a bimal circa 1910 crown with similar embossing to these and no contents (pre-dating the Gould Amendment) and no manufacturer marks. I have not seen a bottle for this brand dating between 1914 and 1926. I have acls dating 1946 (Ball), 1954 (unknown mark), and 1955 (Duraglas) but have not seen a bottle dating between 1931 and 1946. 








 Five bottles I'll number 1 thru 5 left to right.






 #1) bottom has the number 1 and the diamond <I>. 
 Heel has 1040   26






 #2) no diamond <I> anywhere. Heel has 1040   26X (what's the X mean?)






 #3) bottom has the number 1 and the diamond <I>. 
 Heel has 1040 with no year






 #4) bottom has 30 S for IG Streator IL 1930. no diamond <I> or <(I)>






 #5) bottom has 11 <(I)> 1 so 1931


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 17, 2011)

Celery ~

 Bingo! Bango!

 I'm listing the last one #5 as an offical 1931 Owens-Illinois soda bottle. Plant #11 Evansville, Indiana ~ which closed in 1939 ~ confirms that the 1 represents 1931.

 Good job!

 Thank you very much.

 Bob

 P.S. ~  I contacted the Chamber of Commerce in Fremont, Nebraska to see if they can tell me when the Coca Cola Bottling Company began and ceased operation there. Knowing this should help me to more accurately date my "Quality" bottle.

 [ Quality Base ]


----------



## celerycola (Oct 18, 2011)

*Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I went thru my Green Deco Sodas and found these three bottles dated 1929 - 1930 - 1931.






 Left to Right #1 #2 #3.







 #1) Big Boy Charlotte NC
 29N for Newark OH plant of Illinois Glass







 #2) Broadway Dry New York NY
 BOTH <(I)> for Owens/Illinois and 30S for Illinois Glass Streator Plant







 #3) Brand Houston TX
 9 <(I)> 1 for Owens-Illinois 1931


----------



## madman (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

thanks for clearing up the s and n i posted that way back in this thing but wasnt sure what bottle maker mark that was!  end game!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Celery ~

 Your bottles display what I consider to be a rarely seen transition from Owens and Illinois sererately, to them together. The Broadway bottle is especially interesting and unique because it has both marks. Based on what I see, I suspect all of the 1930s bottles are likely the same, as no doubt are the 1929s. In a way, I'd say this establishes soda bottle history and answers the question as to what the earliest Owens-Illinois bottles and their marks look like. I bet there aren't too many collectors who have ever seen one. It's certainly my first.

 As far as I'm concerned this mystery is solved. And where there is one bottle there are certainly more. But one is enough for the record.

 Once again you have proved your resources invaluable.

 Thanks a million.

 Bob


----------



## celerycola (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I seriously doubt you will see a 1929 <(I)>. I suspect by the time the lawyers completed the details of the merger all of the plants were up and in production for the season. Retooling molds to apply a new logo would have cost time and money in lost production.

 The 1930 transition bottle with both 30S and <(I)> indicates the new company was still figuring out the details following the merger. I like that this transition bottle is a New York City bottle appearing just months after the October 1929 stock market crash that launched the Great Depression. Due to the economic uncertainty and bank failures a lot of bottlers nationwide may have been hesitant if financially unable to purchase new bottles in 1930. It would be interesting to see sales and production figures for both the Owens and Illinois companies and the combined business for 1929 through 1931. There may not have been that many 1930-31 bottles made.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Celery ~

 Well said, and I agree 100%. About a week ago I sent an e-mail to the current O-I Company, asking if they had a department or individual who could answer a few questions I had. They replied saying they did not have a public relations department for such inquiries. So it sounds like their records are sealed and we may never know everything that ocurred in the early days. However, I believe someone wrote a book about the Owens-Illinois history. I can't recall at the moment where I saw a reference to that book, but I'm pretty sure one exist.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I just did some quick research and found the book I was thinking of. It is titled ...

                         The Glassmakers, Revisited: A History of Owens-Illinois, Inc.

                                                                  By

                                                          Jack K Paquette 

 Here's a link. If it connects properly it will give a sample of the contents. The downloadable Kindle version is available for $7.95. And Amazon.com copies starting at $29.95.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/B003N2QZJW/ref=sib_dp_kd#reader-link

 Short Desription

 "Its corporate name is hardly a household word, yet Owens-Illinois, Inc., located near a small town in northwestern Ohio, is the worldâ€™s largest manufacturer of the glass bottles and jars used to provide food, beverages and medicines every day to millions of people around the globe. 

 Unlike most corporate histories, The Glassmakers, Revisited, is a page turner....a book filled with illuminating facts and interesting anecdotes about the company that became a global giant due to the mechanical genius of Michael J. Owens, who, in 1903, invented a machine to blow bottles, automatically, and Edward D. Libbey, the astute glassmaker who bankrolled him. 
 [/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I just purchased this book on e-bay. I'm not sure yet exactly what all it contains, but hopefully it will prove interesting. It is an original copy dated 1931.



                                      Want Book & Price List Owens-Illinois Glass Co. 1931[/align][/align] [/align]Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Want-Book-Price-List-Owens-Illinois-Glass-Co-1931-/350498430029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519b559c4d[/align] [/align]I will let you know what the book is about when I receive it in about a week. With shipping the total came to $13.95.[/align] [/align]SPB[/align][/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~

 I also just purchased a new paperback version of the Owens-Illinois book from Amazon.com for a total of $19.94. So with these two books on the way, I should be an Owens-Illinois expert real soon. (Lol). I hope!

 I'll report back later.

 Bob


----------



## madman (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I just purchased this book on e-bay. I'm not sure yet exactly what all it contains, but hopefully it will prove interesting. It is an original copy dated 1931.
> 
> ...


wow thats the ticket it will show all the bottles for that year nice find bob!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

madman ~

 Thanks. I just spent the past hour researching the Owens-Illinois Want Book/Price List, and it appears to be "extremely rare."  I'm excited and can't wait for it to arrive!

 In the meantime, check this out. It is a postcard of the Streator, Illinois glass plant. Notice at the top where it says ... "Owens-Illinois"

 But wait a minute and I will show you something interesting about the post mark on the other side. 

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

This postcard is currently available on e-bay, but I do not intend to purchase it. The seller describes it as being dated 1928 ... and it sure looks like 1928 to me. But how can it be dated 1928 when Owens-Illinois didn't merge until 1929? Hmmm ... very interesting. Unless it's actually 1938. ??? I really don't know!

 What say you?

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 19, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I should have done this earlier, but didn't think of it until just now. I did a couple of zooms on the postcard and discovered it is dated 1938. Plus, in the lower right corner is the card number ...

                                                                  8A381

 Based on everything I know about those old linen postcards, part of the number is also the date it was made.

 So this all turned out to be much to do about nothing. Sorry bout that. I'm just glad I didn't buy the postcard, which I almost did. Heck, I already spent $35.00 today. But that's okay, because I just increased the estimated value of the Owens-Illinois "Want Book" to $50.00.  

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I'm still working on trying to determine if my "Quality" bottle from Fremont, Nebraska (Coca Cola Bottling Co.) is a 1931 or 1941. And although I'm surprised I didn't think of this earlier, I just checked Bill Porter's book to see what dates it shows for Fremont. As it turns out, it list the 1923 bottle from Fremont as being rare. And as most of us know, the Coca Cola 1923 patent bottles were made from 1928 thru 1938. So this tells us the Fremont, Nebraska Coca Cola bottler was in business at least as early as 1938, and possibly even sooner. Which means there is still a 'chance' that my "Quality" bottle is from 1931.

 Note: I sent e-mail inquiries to both the Fremont Chamber of Commerce and the Nebraska Historical Society, asking when the Coca Cola bottler first opened in Fremont, but I have not heard back from either one of them. My next step is to contact Bill Porter and see what year his earliest 1923 hobbleskirt from Fremont, Nebraska is dated. (If he has one ?)  

 SPBOB


----------



## morbious_fod (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

While looking through my recently acquired Beverage Blue Book 1930 edition I noticed an ad from Owens-Illinois where they are claiming to have three divisions, and I was wondering if maybe this might help explain the odd differences we have been finding early on. The three are the Illinois, American, and Graham divisions and may be separated due to the glass companies that they bought to form the parent company. If this is the case then there is a distinct possibly that each division would have it's own standards of dating, quality control, etc. held over from their prior incarnations. It may have taken the company several years to sort the differences out into one company standard.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Morb ~

 The information you posted is great and will be worth researching further. I'm hoping the Owens-Illinois history book I ordered recently, but have not received yet, will cover some of that stuff and more.

                                                                      ~ * ~

 Also ... I just heard back from Bill Porter and he said the Coca Cola bottler in Fremont, Nebraska began operation in 1924. And even though this doesn't confirm my "Quality" bottle as being from 1931, it's starting to look as if it 'could' be.

 Bill said he got the Fremont date from a book titled, "Bottlers of Coca Cola" By: Bill Rickett. He said the book is out of print now, but is one to look for. I have never heard of it, but plan to do a search for one. Does anyone reading this have a copy of the book? If so, please tell us what you think of it.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I have Rickett's book here somewhere. It is shirt pocket sized so will be hard to find.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Morb ~
> 
> ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Celery ~

 Great!  If/when you find it, please let us know what all it contains, and whether it is worth looking for. It's supposed to have listings for when certain Coca Cola bottlers began their operations. I'm still not sure when it was published, but suspect it was at least twenty years ago. Bill Porter said he has only seen two copies in his lifetime, and owns both of them. But neither one is for sale, because I already asked that question. He wished me luck in finding one, but indicated it could be a tough one to find in any condition.

 Bob


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## celerycola (Oct 22, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

It's just a list of Coca-Cola plants and start dates and I think I bought mine in 1974. I confirmed some inaccuracies on some towns where I did considerable research so I don't think it is very reliable.

 A better list of plants and dates is in the back of Cecil Munsey's Coca-Cola book.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Celery ~
> 
> ...


----------



## celerycola (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I'm just now putting away my finds from last weeks Findlay OH bottle show. I bought this June, 1929 Glass Container magazine for the glass mnfr ads and the "Bottled Carbonated Beverages" article by a college student Carl A. Jones. (that name seems familiar to me but I can't place it. If it rings a bell with anyone please let me know.)

 There were two ads from Owens-Illinois Glass. The ad below shows the <(I)> mark alongside the statement: 

 "Trade-mark appearing on the bottom of all Owens-Illinois Bottles." 

 This means that just three months after the merger the new firm was using the <(I)> mark on ALL bottles produced. I don't know if the glass mnfrs were still seasonal in 1929, shutting down for the summer. I've found lots of references in the bottler magazines where soda bottlers bought their bottles in winter and spring for the summer season. What bottles were produced over the summer may have been for the packing industry to use for the fall harvest and  would likely have been the first to use <(I)>. I would think by late fall/winter of 1929 they would be making soda bottles with the <(I)> logo.


----------



## morbious_fod (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

College Student Carl A. Jones....in 1929? Carl A. Jones would have been 50 years old and running the Dixie Coca-Cola Bottling Works in Bristol, VA. More likely it was Carl A. Jones Jr., who graduated from Ohio State University in 1934 and would go on to be publisher of the local Johnson City Press for the rest of his career. Makes more sense for him to be writing articles about beverages given his having grown up around his daddy's business. Granted he would only be around 17 at the writing of that article.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Hmmm ... Most interesting. Which means we may have to take a closer look at some of those (non acl) single digit  11 <(I)> 9  that we have been thinking were for 1939. Unless we just haven't seen a true 1929 yet because there were so few of them made. ???

 But the question still remains; "How do we distinguish a single digit 1929 from a single digit 1939?"

 The search continues!

 Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

The <(I)> 1930 Broadway New York was a two digit year.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> The <(I)> 1930 Broadway New York was a two digit year.


 

 True ... hopefully it will be that easy. But it likely won't be me who finds one. My earliest is the "maybe" 1931.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Maybe I did find a 1929 after all. But I can't say for certain because all I have to go on is the description that came with the picture below. This is a perfect example of having to rely on someone's word as opposed to seeing a picture of the base to support their claim. But it sounds like they know what they are talking about. (The double use of the word 'cracks' is theirs, not mine).( I do not know who Thomas Miller is).

 SPB

                                                      Copy/Pasted Description

 SCARCE ARTESIAN BOTTLING COMPANY FISCHER BROTHERS FISCHER BROS BELLEVILLE, ILLINOIS 24 FLU OZ UNUSUAL DARK GREEN COLOR. MADE BY OWENS-ILLINOIS GLASS COMPANY TOLEDO, OHIO PER THE BASE IN 1929. UNUSUAL DESIGN. NEAR MINT CONDITION. VERY SMALL DING ON THE BASE. VERY VERY MINIMAL INTERIOR CLOUDING. NO CHIPS, CRACKS, DINGS, OR CRACKS. FANCY DESIGN. CURSIVE SCRIPT. THOMAS MILLER ST. CLAIR COUNTY ILLINOIS BEVERAGE BOTTLES NOTES THIS VARIANT AS SCARCE IN THIS GREEN COLOR.


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## bottleopop (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Hmmm ... Most interesting. Which means we may have to take a closer look at some of those (non acl) single digitÂ  11 <(I)> 9Â  that we have been thinking were for 1939. Unless we just haven't seen a true 1929 yet because there were so few of them made. ???
> 
> ...


 
 As you pointed out via the acl bottles, we can't distinguish between 1939 and 1949 either, just by the markings on the base.  Therefore, a 9 with no dot could be 1929, 1939, or 1949, given no other clues by the bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

bottleopop ~

 True to a point ... except that most if not all of the 1949s should be double digit like this  17 <(I)> 49

 Consistant double digiting started around 1943-1944 and was fairly common by 1949-1950. It's the 1939s that are the tricky ones. I suppose the best we can do is to see how many single digit 9s we can find (both dot and no dot)(non acl) and then go from there. And don't forget Celerycola's reminder that some if not all of the 1929s might be double digit anyway ... which will make it easy-smeasy if we can just find one.

 Thanks and good luck.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I was curious about the reference to Thomas Miller in connection with the 1929 Artesian/Fischer Brothers bottle, and found the following. If anyone has one of these out of print books, please let us know what it has to say about Owens-Illinois. I checked Amazon.com and numerous other places, but could not find a copy of this book.

 Thanks.

 SPB

A survey of early soda/mineral water manufacuturing in St. Clair Co: A glimpse of Illinois history through glass, (1840-1910) by Thomas Miller (1984) Out of print. [/align]


----------



## celerycola (Oct 24, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Interesting. That's a soda book I don't have. I just now contacted the publisher to see if copies are available or if the author can be contacted.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Â
> I was curious about the reference to Thomas Miller in connectionÂ with the 1929 Artesian/Fischer Brothers bottle, and found the following. If anyone hasÂ one of these out of printÂ books, please let us know what it has to say about Owens-Illinois. I checked Amazon.com and numerous other places, but could not find a copy of this book.
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I finally received the two books I ordered, with the 270 page Owens-Illinois History arriving just this morning. It doesn't contain a lot of pictures, so I have some reading to do. In the meantime I wanted to share the picture below which is of the first Owens-Illinois catalog, dated 1930. So even though, as celerycola pointed out, they were definitely producing bottles sometime in 1929, their first official catalog did not come out until 1930. And you just know the catalog pictures some cool soda bottles. I sure would like to find one of these catalogs someday.

 As for the other book, (1931), it was pretty disappointing. It turned out to be a strictly prescription bottle ordering book, and hardly has any pictures at all. I think it was intended to accompany one of their catalogs and to be used for ordering purposes only. Most of the pages are blank lines. But still a cool and early Owens-Illinois collectible.

 I will be back with more just as soon as I read through the book.

 SPBOB

 [ First Owens-Illinois Catalog ~ 1930 ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~

 I almost forgot about this Invoice I found on the internet. The dates seem to indicate that the order was placed on January 10, 1930 - and was shipped on February 12, 1930. So if we didn't already know it, this should help confirm that Owens-Illinois was running full-steam by January of 1930. Note the bottles were shipped by PRR (Railroad) from the plant located in Gas City, Indiana. And since they were shipped to a doctor, I am assuming the order was for prescription/medicinal bottles. I'm not sure what "Argyle Panels" means.

 SPB


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## epackage (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> ...


 Argyle Panels Bob...

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/Typing/IGCo1906/IGCo1906page42.jpg


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

e-pack ~

 Cool. Thanks.

 I really gotta get me one of them catalogs ... especially an Owens-Illinois from 1930 or later. But even if a guy did find one, I bet you couldn't touch it for less than $100 - $200

 Bob


----------



## epackage (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> e-pack ~
> 
> ...


 Bob here's a link to the whole catalog for 1906, that's where I posted it from.....Jim

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco_1906.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

epackage ~

 Thanks. Yeah. I'm pretty familiar with that site. Although I don't know of anyone who has it all memorized yet. It's so extensive it takes hours/days just to scroll through it. I have communicated with Bill Lindsey several times, and he is a very helpful and knowledgeable guy. For those who are not aware of it, the site also shows the Illinois Glass catalogs from 1920 and 1926. Check them out below.

 If anyone ever hears about a Owens-Illinois catalog being for sale (1930 thru 1960), please let me know.

 Thanks.

 SPB







 1920: http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1920.htm[/align] [/align]1926: http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm[/align][/align]


----------



## epackage (Oct 29, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Will do Bob, I'll keep my eyes open....Jim


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I'm reading the Owens-Illinois history book I purchased recently, and wanted to share the paragraph below that I thought was most interesting. But first, please note that the author, Jack K Paquette, worked for the Owens-Illinois company for 33 years and was vice president when he retired. So he should know a thing or two without having to guess or embellish the facts. Plus, he states that most of his information comes directly from documented company records he had access to.

 The paragraph below is part of a section in the book where the author refers to various developments that occurred in 1931. Of particular interest, please note where it indicates the following ...

 1.  That the company "announced" the ACL process in 1931.

 2.  That the term ACL first stood for "Applied Color Lettering." With the word "Lettering" being the point of emphasis here, which most of us now think of as ACL for "Applied Color Label." This suggest that somewhere along the line someone (collectors ?) changed it to mean "Label." (No big deal really, but still very interesting).

 So if the company "announced" the innovation of the ACL process in 1931, are we to believe that it took until 1934-1935 before the first ACLs began to appear on the market? I wonder! I also wonder if some of the single-digit 1s-2s-3s-and 4s that most of us are familiar with don't actually indicate acl bottles that were made in the 1930s and not in the 1940s as previously believed? 

 Yes! I'm suggesting that we take another look at some of those single-digit 1940s bottles and re-evaluate what "may" in fact be 1930s bottles. The bottles with Duraglas and stippling (orange peel texture) on the bases can be immediately eliminated. It's the bottles whitout these features that I'm talking about. This may be much to do about nothing. But then again it could change ACL soda bottle history as we currently know it.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~

 I forgot to emphasize the part in the paragraph where it states ... "immediately popular." This suggest to me they "immediately" began the acl process in 1931 ... and likely no later than 1932. ???

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Another aspect of my current research involves the dots vs no-dots theory as seen on the base photo below. The picture is the base of a (Indian Club/Maid) "ColaRootBeer" with the Owens-Illinois mark 20 <(I)> 1.  Notice the big-fat dot!

 If you take another look at the chart I posted back on page 5, you will see where plant number 20 was originally for Brackenridge, Pennsylvania, which closed in 1937 and was reassigned that same year to a newly acquired plant in Oakland, California. My ColaRootBeer bottle is an acl and just happens to be from Oakland, Ca. So I know in this case that it is a 1941 bottle. 

 But what I'm wondering (and it's way too early to draw any conclusions yet) is if the dots after some (if not all) of the single-digit numbers may have something to do with "reassigned" plant locations and not just the date or a quality control aspect? Has anyone ever looked at it from this perspective? I haven't until just now. But it may be worth looking into. Someone may be able to immediately prove this possibility as false ... but on the other hand, maybe not. When you get the time, please check the dots on some of your acl bottles and see if you can find any connection between the dots and the reassignment dates from the chart on page 5. This may be much to do about nothing, but it "might" just be a missing link that will shed some more light on the dot/no-dot mystery. 

 Thanks.

 SPBOB

 20 <(I)> 1.  =  Oakland, California 1941 ~ But is the dot for the date or for the reassignment location? (or both?)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Here's the chart again so you won't have to click back to page 5 for it. I printed it out and now have a copy of it tacked to my wall behind my computer. (Note: I just developed this new theory of mine last night, so please bare with mean if it seems outrageous). Thanks. SPB


----------



## morbious_fod (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

I recently purchased a industry magazine by the name Bottling Industry from November 1952. The interesting thing about this magazine is that it is a special issue which gives the history of the industry, brands, and the affiliated industries. This of course includes the glass makers. The odd thing is that they credit the creation of the applied label, they call it "Pyroglaze" which is another term for the process that gets thrown around, to Thatcher Glass of Elmira, NY in 1932. This is the maker of the Wedge Wall brand of bottle. Having just purchased a milk bottle from Kingsport, Tennessee with the same glass mark on it, I wonder if this process was originally created for Milks. I haven't seen very many sodas from this company this early on, although I have some from the 1950's created by them. There is no mention in the Owens Illinois article about their ACL process; however, the Jumbo A Super Cola bottles I have seen are from Owens Illinois.

 As to the meaning of ACL, If you look at the earliest examples they are mostly one color and usually only letters, eventually as they were able to do more with the process I'm sure the name of the process changed to labels. As for the possiblity that these single digits are earlier, one thing I have observed is that there is a distinct difference between the acls of the 1930's and of the 1940's. They go from a dull thin look to a vibrant and thicker look around 1938, so if they are vibrant instead of dull and thin looking, they are most likely very late 1930's into the 1940's. Not a strict rule of course, just a general observation over time.


----------



## morbious_fod (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Another aspect of my current research involves the dots vs no-dots theory as seen on the base photo below. The picture is the base of a (Indian Club/Maid) "ColaRootBeer" with the Owens-Illinois mark 20 <(I)> 1.  Notice the big-fat dot!
> 
> ...


 
 Most of my bottles with dots and without come from #3 Fairmont WV which was never reassigned.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Morb ~

 Thanks. Your information is very helpful. So based on your plant #3 Fairmont, West Virginia bottle observation, I am going to eliminate the possibly of the dots being connected to reassignments. The problem I'm having is that about 90% of my acls are double-digit without dots, which makes it hard for me to do any accurate comparisions. But now, thanks to you, this kills that theory. Which is fine, and I will just move on to the acl process research.

 If you recall from my "Earliest ACLs" thread, we came up with a "confirmed" acl milk bottle made by Kolb's Dairy which was a Thatcher bottle dated 1934. (See pic below). But this was the earliest we were able to confirm.

 But I'm still thinking that maybe, just maybe, there are some 1931 to 1934 acl soda bottles out there, and will use your "faded label" possibility as a place to start. So if anyone has a single-digit Owens-Illinois bottle, both dot and no dot, marked 1 thru 4, and it has an extremely faded label, please share it with us for closer examination.

 Thanks a lot.

 SPB

              [Kolb's Dairy milk bottle ~ Confirmed by the Bottle Research Group as being made in 1934 ]

                                            3E4 is for Thatcher Glass ~ Elvira, New York ~ 1934


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

And here is the "Extremely Faded" label of the 1934 Kolb's Dairy 1934 acl milk bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 31, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~

 For those interested in this latest search for acls, please don't bother with the single-digit 5s and later, as we have already confirmed in my "Earliest ACLs" thread from over a year ago that there are a quite a few 1935 acls. The focucs this time is with the single-digit 1s thru 4s. That is unless you happen to have a single-digit 9 (non acl) that you think is for 1929. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

 And speaking of "Hoot," have a fun and safe Halloween.

 SODA"BOO"BOB []


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Not what I meant. Not a faded label but a duller thinner label. How about an example to clarify. This is my 1938 Rums Dry from Bluefield, VA, note that the labe is in great condition, it's just that is has a duller look.....


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## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

As compared to it's 1940 sibling, same brand, same bottling company, same glass maker, stark contrast in the brightness of the acl between the 1938 and the 1940.


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Another example of the earlier duller acl. 







 Note how the white is almost a light grey instead of bright white.With the Yellow on this bottle you can really see what I mean by thinner.


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Now compare it to this 1939, from the same bottling company and glassworks, but a couple of years later.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Morb ~

 Thanks again.

 I actually knew what you meant when you said "duller," and not sure why I said "extremely faded." But in any event I agree with your observationa that the first acls were no doubt experimental until they finally perfected the process. The insert below is from my acl book and refers to "the early days" when pine oil mediums were used, which in part may explain the duller labels. I suspect even those pine oils went through various stages until they finally came up with the thermoplactics that the article says were first introduced in the "mid 1950s." 

 I went back and read through some of the post in the "Earliest ACLs" thread, and realize now that during the course of that thread most (if not all) of us unanimously agreed that any Owens-Illinois single-digit date code with a dot automatically meant it was a 1940s bottle. But now I'm wondering, because of the exceptions to this rule that have surfaced along the way, if some of those "dotted" bottles may in fact be from the 1930s? I can't help but ask myself; where can it be found with 100% positive proof that an Owens-Illinois acl soda bottle marked with  9 <(I)> 3.  is a 1943 acl and not a 1933 acl? Especially if it doesn't have Duraglas or stippling on the base? Thus my reason for us to take another look at some of those single-digit 1s 2s 3s and 4s. 

 SPB

 Following this paragraph is another one that states; Pine oils were "liquid" based, whereas thermoplactics were "solid" based. I'm not sure what the specific difference was, but it may explain the "duller" finishes vs the "brighter" finishes.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~

 I realize I am going out on a limb here regarding the possibility of there being 1931 thru 1934 acls, and that I am putting all of my eggs in one basket simply because of a single sentence where Jack Paquette states ...

 "Another development the Company announced that year [1931] was a glass decorating innovation called "Applied Color Lettering," or "ACL."

 ... but I just find it extremely hard to accept that it took the world's largest manufacturer of soda bottles four or five years before they began producing acl sodas. The author could just as easily have worded it differently by saying something like "in the early thirties." But he didn't, he specifically said 1931. According to the book, Jack Paquette worked for the Owens-Illinois Company for 33 years, starting in July of 1951 through July of 1984. So I just gotta believe he knows what he's talking about. He was there when they introduced "thermoplastics" to the acl process.

 SPB


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~
> 
> ...


 
 There was the tidbit I was waiting for, he started working for the company in 1951, twenty years after the events he's reporting on, another good question is when was this book published? My point is that they might have started developing the idea in 1931, but it took a few years to perfect it and sell it to the bottlers, that's why it would take until 1934 to produce the first commercially sold acls, in sodas anyway. If he had actually been working for the company in 1931 then I would be more apt to buy it, but he is obviously going from memory of what he has been told, or at best possibly company records.







 1934 Jumbo A Super Cola produced by Owens Illinois. BTW is has a number 3 below the logo with a dot beside it. Yet the 4 to the right of the logo has no dot.


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

From the introduction article for Jumbo A Super Cola from the Quality Kist Bottling Company of Johnson City, Tennessee dated September 20, 1934 where Sam Tarver makes a special note about the new package recently perfected by a leading glass manufacturer, and claiming the first Carbonated Beverage bottle to use this process is Jumbo A Super Cola.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Morb ~

 1.  The hardcover edition of the book has a copyright date of 2010. My softcover edition is dated 2011. However, this particular book is a "revised" follow-up to his first book which was published in 1984 right after he retired. The 1984 book is titled, "A History of Owens-Illinois, Inc., 1818-1984." He also did another version of the book in 1994. My 2011 edition primarily brings things up to date as of 2009. Jack Parquette was born in 1925 in Toledo, Ohio (Hometown of original Owens-Illinois Co.) As far as I know he is stiil alive and would be about 86 years old now.

 2.  I agree more research is needed to either confirm or refute the possibility of there being any 1931 thru 1933 acls. But based on the foregoing information I think it is worth looking into.

 3.  Your "Jumbo" bottle just set the bar as the earliest acl soda bottle I am currently aware of. If nothing else, the article confirms it. Good job! In my opinion you just changed acl soda bottle history as we know it. How'z about a picture of the base for the official record?

 Thanks a million, and congratulations on your discovery.

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

P.S. ~ Morb

 Which Owens-Illinois plant number does your "Jumbo" bottle have? If it is any of the plant numbers from my chart that closed before 1944, then it will triple-confirm the 1934 date. (Providing the chart is accurate ~ which I personally believe it is). 

 Thanks.

 Bob


----------



## celerycola (Nov 1, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> 1934 Jumbo A Super Cola produced by Owens Illinois. BTW is has a number 3 below the logo with a dot beside it. Yet the 4 to the right of the logo has no dot.


 
 I used to have one of those. ;-)


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## morbious_fod (Nov 2, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~ Morb
> 
> ...


 
 Unfortunately due to some glass distortions around the bottom that number has been mostly obscured; however, it appears to be a 3, but honestly is could also be a 9 or an 8, but I'm pretty sure it's a 3. Yeah my money is on 3 which is Fairmont, WV.

 I'm not shocked that the Jumbo is the earliest so far, it has long been concidered the first. The Double Cola Company website claims the brand was introduced in 1933, so there may be an even earlier one out there from that year.


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 2, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> I used to have one of those. ;-)


 
 LOL!


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## celerycola (Nov 2, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> I'm not shocked that the Jumbo is the earliest so far, it has long been concidered the first. The Double Cola Company website claims the brand was introduced in 1933, so there may be an even earlier one out there from that year.


 
 Isn't there an embossed Jumbo the same basic shape and style?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 3, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Morb ~

 I thought you and others might like to read a couple of pages from the Owens-Illinois History book. These particular pages primarily deal with the early 1930s and cover a couple of things you touched on earlier. Including ...

 1. Brief mention of milk bottles.
 2. Other acqusitions.
 3. The 1931 ACL paragraph.
 4. Diversity.
 5. Depression era.
 6. Prohibition recovery.

 But mainly I am posting the following pages to emphasize what I feel are the talents and specific documentations of an accomplished writer and buisnessman, and not just the foggy recollections of some old guy who didn't have anything better to do than write three (3) books chronicling the history of Owens-Illinois Inc. Meaning ... I honestly think when he makes statements like "announced that year," that it was something which actually took place, and are not just guesswork comments. Of course, we still have a lot of searching to do to determine if there are in fact any 1931 through 1933 acls. I agree, 1931s are doubtful. But 1932 and 1933? Just "maybe."

 Note: Most of the information in this 2010 book is carried over from Paquettes previous two books when he was younger. I have no doubt that he had full access to any O-I records he wanted.

 1st Book 1984 ... Paquette was 59 years old and recently retired.
 2nd Book 1994 .. 69 years old.
 3rd Book 2010 ... 85 years old.


 Thanks.

 Bob

 [1 of 3 pages]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 3, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

[ 2 of 3 pages ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 3, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

[ 3 of 3 pages ]


----------



## morbious_fod (Nov 3, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 There is a Jumbo Beverages bottle, but it is very different from the Jumbo A Super Cola.
 Isn't there an embossed Jumbo the same basic shape and style?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 4, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Note: Although this thread seems to have transitioned from looking for non-acl 1929 O-I bottles to 1934 or earlier acls, I am still interested, and continue to search for a 1929. So if you happen to come across one before I do, please be sure to share it with us as that is still the primary focus of this discussion.

 In the meantime ... check out this "Thatcher Glass" ad that (if I understand it correctly) is from 1934. You will most likely have to do a zoom on it to read it, which can be easily changed by adjusting your zoom level on the lower right of most screen displays. Set it at about 200%.

                        The paragraph of most interest is the fourth one down that reads ...

 For bottle collectors, probably the most interesting development of the 1930s was the introduction of applied color labels. This labeling technique - called "pyroglazing" by Thatcher - was reportedly "demostrated" by the company in 1932 [Figure 8]. Their first ads for the process, and presumably it's first appearance on their bottles, was in March of 1934.

                                                                ~ * ~ 

 I acknowledge the article uses terms like "presumably," but it is still enough to capture my interest. But the best part of all is the [Figure 8] ad itself. It really hits the nail on the head. The only thing that I'm a little confused about is if I understand it correctly, and that the ad in figure 8 is from 1932 or later? But even if it is from 1934, the acl soda bottles pictured in the ad would definitely be worth looking at for those who have them in their collections. I'm not entirely sure about how to decipher a Thatcher Glass mark, as I don't have a single Thatcher bottle in my collection that I am aware of, so if you have one or more of them, maybe you can educate us.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB

 [ Thatcher Glass article and ad ~ Ad likely 1932 thru 1934 ~ Definitely very early once you read it ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 4, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Here's an enlarged - cropped - highlighted version of the Thatcher ad that should be easier to read without zooming. The Thatcher mark looks something like this ... 

                              mTc ... and stands for "Thatcher Manufacturing Company"

                               ... but I'm still not sure about their date codes/numbers?

                                     The mark can be seen on the Kist bottle in the ad.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 7, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Here's a picture of the base on the ...

                                                " *JUMBO *~ _A SUPER COLA_"

_                                   ... _that Morb sent me in a PM. It is embossed ... 

                                                            3 <(I)> 4  (no dot)
                                                                 3.

                                                       Which translates ... 

                               Owens-Illinois Plant #3 ~ Fairmont, West Virginia
*                                                                            1934 *
_                                                 3. = Mold Cavity Number_

         Thanks Morb. Your bottle is the earliest acl soda currently known! Congratulations.

  If anyone else has one these bottles ~ please check the base and see if it has a similar date code 

                                                           SPBOB


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## bottleopop (Nov 7, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Here is the patent for this bottle.  It's assigned to the Seminole Flavor Company.

 Click on "Drawing" near the top left of the page that comes up.

 The patent was filed at the patent office on Feb. 23, 1934 and the patent date is April 24, 1934.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 7, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

bottle-O ~

 Good job! That falls right in sinc with Morb's article which is dated September 20, 1934.

 Thanks.

 SPB


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Bringing this thread back up after I got this bottle yesterday. It's most likely a 1931, I think. It's got a metal cap, not a plastic one. They started using plastic in the 1930's, so 1931 makes more sense. The 12 plant number was clearly altered in the mold, as was the "1" to the right of the O-I logo. I'm a bit pressed for time, so I'll just let you interpret the pictures...


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Wonder if it works as advertised?


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

base


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

base


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## cyberdigger (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

All you need from that mixture is the valerian.. a nice valerian tea would make for a most splendid snooze..


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Wheelah23 ~

 Personally, I don't doubt one iota that your bottle is a 1931. But I am curious as to what you think the number 1 was altered to or from? I'm also curious if the O part of the mark runs through the Diamond or if it is only above and below the Diamond? The reason I ask is because in your picture it looks like the O may have been added later on top of an older Illinois Glass mark which was a Diamond only, and looked something like this ... <> ... Whereas the later Owens-Illinois marks looked like this <(I)> 

 As for the cap, notice in the picture below of my 1931 Owens-Illinois book at the top right of the left page where it says "Aluminum Capped Service." Also notice in the "Handy Flacons" section near the bottom of the page, where on the top line it says "Bakelite Caps." So they were definitely making both metal as well as plastic caps in 1931. Note: You may have to zoom in order to read the book clearly.

 Thanks for sharing. Cool bottle with nice label and contents ... but I'm sure it's expired by now.  Lol

 By the way, if someone is interested in purchasing my 1931 Owens-Illinois "Prescription Bottle Ordering Book," I would consider offers of $50.00 or more. It may not be worth that much, but I like it just enough as an early O-I collectible that $50.00 is the least I would take for it. If interested, shoot me a PM with your offer. 

 Thanks.

 SPBOB

 [ I tried to post a larger picture but it wouldn't let me. On a scale of 1 to 10 the book is an 8.5 ]


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 9, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Well, to explain what I mean by the numbers having been altered... 

 The "12" to the left of the mark is only partially altered. Whatever was once where the "2" is now, had been peened out at some point. The "1" was not added onto peened out embossing. This makes me think the mold originally had a one digit plant code on it, that wasn't plant 2. Then, when the mold was moved to a different plant, they scratched out whatever plant code it had before, and made it so it was "12".

 The "1" to the right has the same clear evidence of peening. There is no way to tell what was peened out originally, but assuming this bottle IS a 1931, then this mold must've had either a "0" or a "9" before the peening happened.

 The 1 below the mark has no evidence of peening whatsoever. It almost looks to have been added in as an afterthought, as it is not in line with the O-I mark.

 Also, this bottle has a rather crude machine scar. Compared to the later scars, which are all but invisible, this scar is rather noticeable.


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## MIdigger (Nov 11, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

SPB-- I know this is a soda thread. However yesterday I dug some small Genesee Dairy milks (Michigan) now what I am understanding is so far nothing earlier than sodas acl 34? . Ok this milk has an acl and has the markings  18 <O> 1   would this be a 1931 as it has no dot next to the 1?.

 Secondly I dug a McDonald dairy pint acl with 18 <O> 0  and wondered if this is 1930? It appears all these milks are from plant No 18.

 Sorry to drift off course on the thread but was curious. Thanks.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 11, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

MI ~

 I am personally responsible for the topic drifting from early non-acl Owens-Illinois marks to just about anything acl related, so I wouldn't worry about that. In fact, I really need to transfer some of the acl information from this thread to my "Earliest ACLs" thread and do an update there. Which I intend to do sometime this weekend.

 As for your ACL milk bottles being 1930 and 1931, I think the odds of that are pretty slim. This doesn't mean they're not, only that the current evidence suggest otherwise. Especially the 1930 bottle. Indicators suggest that in 1930 and 1931 most glass makers we just beginning to experiment with the innovation of using applied color labels. I have come to the personal conclusion the only way of actually "proving" that pre 1934-1935 acls exist, is to research the brand name itself and "confirm" what they did and when ... such as with Morb's Jumbo Cola that is fully supported with the 1934 newspaper article. I suspect with more time and research someone will eventually be able to say with certainty what the dots/no dots mean, but right now I honestly believe it is more of a guessing game.

 Therefore, I am of the "opinion" (until further evidence surfaces to indicate otherwise) that your milk bottles are more likely from 1940 and 1941. Plant No.18 was in Columbus, Ohio, and according to the chart, "switched" in 1947. But I am not sure what it was switched/transfered/reassigned to. (Not all 1940s Owens-Illinois bottles are marked with Duraglas).

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 11, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Speaking of ACLs, here are a few messages I received from two of the countries leading researchers. I won't mention their names because these were personal communications sent to me and I'm not sure if either researcher would want me to quote them without getting their permission first. I am primarily posting them here for the purpose of using the information for future research, and to suggest that other members check their collections for any of the bottles mentioned and see if you have one or more that might qualify as early acl soda bottles. There are some good leads here that I feel are worthy of taking a closer look at.

 SPBOB


 (1st Message)

 Do I have some surprises for you! The first large confirmed use of ACL soda bottles was in 1934. Two of the brands that really stand out are 7-Up and Par-T-Pak brands. There were others too. I've seen 2 different 1934 7-Up bottles. One from South Gate, CA., and one from Philadelphia, PA. Can't remember where the third one came from or if it even had a bottler's name on it. The Par-T-Pak brand really stands out because Nehi didn't start bottling the Par-T-Pak brand until Feb of 1935. Yet there are date stamped 1934 ACL Par-T-Pak brand soda bottles out there. I know you're asking how can that be? Before WWII, depending on the design of the label and bottle, the lead time for new bottles was 9 months to a year. If the bottle was really elaborate, the lead time could extend out to 14 or 16 months. So first run new bottles could be dated the year before they were used. Remember, this is only on first run new bottles. I have some information, but no proof yet that there were some small runs of ACL soda bottles as early as 1929. I have in my collection a very late 1920's or early 1930's EMB soda bottle. On the back side is a very crude, about a 2 inch round dark green,  ACL label. [/align] [/align](2nd message )[/align] [/align]Owens-Illinois was experimenting with ACLs by at least 1930. However, the firm's first catalog (December 1930) illustrated several ACL bottles, but none of them were sodas or beers. They were all household types. In 1933, the Brockway Glass Co. advertised the first ACL bottles -- for druggists! Although some sold, the idea never caught on in the pharmacy field.[/align][/align] [/align] [/align](3rd Message)[/align]
 [/align]Owens-Illinois offered to put ACLs on older, embossed bottles for its customers. A leading researcher I know found at least two articles by O-I inviting it's customers to send back their old bottles. We found two milk bottles in the California State Parks collection that had 1931 date codes and ACL labels. Other identical bottles had the same embossing but no ACLs.[/align] [/align]I strongly agree that some ACL bottles were actually made in 1934, probably including the Jumbo Cola and the 7up and/or Par-T-Pak. I think the documentary evidence is pretty clear that the first commercial use of ACLs was on the Brockway pharmacy bottles, followed by O-I and Thatcher in 1934.[/align][/align]


----------



## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Hey guys. I found one one the green Arttesian bottles. Is it worth anything or should i toss it out?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

pearce69 ~

 Welcome aboard. Please refresh our (old guy like me) memories as to what the Artesian bottle is all about? Is it an early Owens-Illinois or a early ACL or both? And if you could post a couple of pictures of it, that would be great, too.

 Thanks.

 SPB


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Hey guys. Ive found one of these green bottles. Can you tell me if its worth keeping or should i toss it out?


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Oh. Sorry. I didnt see that u responded allready. Its the exact green bottle in the picture above. Schafer bros, artesian bottling co.  belleville ill.


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Im trying to upload a picture but it keeps telling me the file is too big?


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Its the one you posted in post 147.


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

This one? I wouldn't throw it out just yet. I wouldn't pay more than $10 if I saw it in a shop, but then again, I don't really collect these. You've come to the right place, though, if you want to find people that do.


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Thank you very much. I think ill keep it on the shelf for a while. Ill let you know if i find one of the others you are looking for.


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## pearce69 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

(my wife asked)  Do you have a guesstimation of what a collector might give for it?


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## Wheelah23 (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

Depends on the collector. Like I said, I wouldn't pay $10 for it. But someone might collect these green deco quarts, and if it's rare, they might pay a lot for it. You'd probably do best to start your own thread about it, that way you could find its rarity.


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## madman (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

hey bob dug this this weekend,  these pharmacys almost never last in the ground, early 30s acl, thought id share glad to have found this for the collection, minimal paint loss


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

pearce69 ~

 I know you are new here, so please do not get discouraged. But it's true what Wheelah23 said. It all depends on the individual collector. Even if your bottle was worth $100, and you offered it to me for free, I would pass on it and say offer it to one of the other members first who would really appreciate it. On the other hand, if you had a nice "Big Chief" bottle you didn't want, I'd be all over it like white on rice. I just depends on the taste of the collector. There is definitely some one here with knowledge and interest regarding your Artisian. And because I do not collect that type of bottle, I really have no idea what it's worth. Start a new thread on it like Wheelah23 suggested, and I think you will be pleasanty surprised with the results. And as far as posting pictures is concerned, try reducing your images to about 600 (Windows) and see if that works. 

 Good luck. And please don't hesitate to ask for help if necessary.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

madman ~

 Fantastic! Is it base mark dated? And made by who?

 SPB


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## madman (Nov 26, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

k in a keystone 1924 - 1968 bottle was dug in a early 30s context dump badly burned-- knox pa. bottle works


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

pearce69 ~

 I just re-read the post on the Artisian bottle and forgot to ask the most important question of all ... What type of symbols ~ numbers - etc, are embossed on the bottom?  If possible, a good focused picture of the base would be even better. If it's a   <(I)>  1929-30, then it would definitely be of additional interest.

 Thanks a lot.

 SPB


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## wisodas (Nov 27, 2011)

I have 2 Wisconsin sodas with the Owens-Illinois mark, and dated 1929.  They are ROBBIN'S BEVERAGES bottles from Richland Center, Wisconsin.  There is a mold 1 and a mold 2.

 Mold 1 has the O-I mark, the mold number 1, the bottle design number 3247 and the date 29 - all on the bottom of the bottle.  Mold 2 is similar except that the mold number is 2.

 Mold 1 is also known with the I in a diamond mark (Illinois Glass Co. at Alton), the mold number 1, the bottle design number 3247, and the date 29.

 Mold 2 is also known dated 1930.  The bottom embossing on that bottle has the O-I symbol, to the lower left a 0 (for 1930), to the lower right a 7 (for the Alton plant), centered and lower down the mold number 2, and under that the bottle design number 3247 and a filled spot in the mold where the 29 date used to be.  Note that the date and plant number are reversed from later practice on this early O-I bottle.


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## morbious_fod (Nov 27, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  madman
> 
> hey bob dug this this weekend,  these pharmacys almost never last in the ground, early 30s acl, thought id share glad to have found this for the collection, minimal paint loss


 
 Nice find. Finding any sodas in this 1930's dump?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Nov 27, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

wisodas ~

 Welcome to the club. Lots of new members these days. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your information. How'z about a few good pictures of bases on your bottles? That would really make my day.

 Thanks a lot.

 SPB


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## madman (Nov 27, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  morbious_fod
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah!


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## morbious_fod (Nov 28, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*



> ORIGINAL:  madman
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Anything good?


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## madman (Nov 28, 2011)

*RE: Here's your Missing Link from 1930*

yep


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