# THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY



## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

Buckman Springs Lithia Water ...


I have been hunting, digging, and buying soda bottles for about 40 years and still recall my first dig in the early 1970s when I was about 20 years old which was at the long abandoned ruins of a local bottling plant that began operation in 1875 and shut down in the early 1940s. Over the years I have dug at the site numerous times and found a variety of soda bottles but was never able to find one of their original blob-tops that wasn't broken. Other than the one discussed below, the only other example of one of these early bottles that I am aware of is in a local museum, but that particular bottle is missing it's original paper label. Acquiring one of these bottles has been at the top of my want list for forty years now but I never expected to see one turn up on eBay.



As you will see, the bottle is an amber blob-top with a date of 1909 on the label and is the only example I am aware of that is fully intact. The neck label has deteriorated but it's still an extremely rare bottle. Although the label dates from 1909 or later, the bottle itself is similar to those used by the company much earlier.

When I first stumbled onto the listing the bottle only had one bid of about $20.00 and at the moment I thought I had struck gold. I was prepared to pay as much as $200.00 for it but I never got the chance because it soared to $406.00 the last day of the listing. I have no idea who won the bottle but suspect it was a collector in the San Diego area, which is near to where I currently live.  I could easily have placed a bid of $500.00+ and possibly won it, but decided against paying that much at the last minute. But now I regret not bidding because I am fairly certain I will never have opportunity to purchase another one. It's a funny thing about wanting something so bad that it hurts and then to have it slip through your fingers like so much sand through an hourglass. As I sat there watching the clock tick away during the closing minutes of the auction I kept telling myself that I should enter a bid of $1,000.00 and probably win the bottle, but the main reason I didn't is because of my age. I'm 62 years old now and already have so many soda bottles that I have to keep most of them packed away in boxes and only have my favorites on display. I realize this might sound like the winding-down of an old collector, and in some ways I suppose it is, but what else is a guy supposed to do when his kids have no interest in soda bottles and will probably just sell them when I'm gone?         

But irregardless of all that, the moral of my story is this ...

Don't let those extremely rare ones get away simply because of the price (especially if you can afford it and aren't in your waning years), because you might never see another one. If I could turn back the hands of time that bottle would probably be mine now.

But this doesn't mean I'm giving up collecting - not by a long shot! In fact, I'm going to a local reservoir today that the county has been draining for several weeks, causing the water level to drop about 20 feet, which in turn caused the sloping shoreline to decrease about 150 feet. One of the Rangers I know and who I spoke with recently told me there are "hundreds" of bottles laying in the mud around the newly exposed shoreline and that they are allowing anyone and everyone who wants to, to gather up all the bottles they could carry away. The dam was completed in 1912 and the lake has been a popular fishing location ever since, so I'm hopeful of finding some possibly rare "keepers."        

I hope the following pictures post okay and are readable because they capture ...

"The rest of the story"

By the way, if anybody knows the whereabouts of one of these bottles, please let me know. It's still at the top of my want list and I would dearly like to have a shot at another one. It blows my mind that a bottle like this from a relatively unknown bottler on the west coast somehow ended up in New Jersey. But with the Internet and the way things are these days, I suppose it shouldn't surprise me all that much.

Here's the eBay listing that closed on Thursday, February 13, 2014. Notice the seller doesn't describe the bottle as rare and apparently knew very little about it. I bet he was shocked when it sold for $406.00. 

[URL=Http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amber-Buckman-Springs-Lithia-Water-San-Diego-County-California-w-Label-/231153327168?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&is=eNMzarZD4%252Bu36kPnrRHXEw3zfkc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=NC]Http://www.ebay.com/itm/A...ig_cvip=true&rt=NC[/URL] 

First, the eBay bottle itself ... Followed by about a dozen then & now pictures of the old Buckman Springs bottling plant.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

As it looks today ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 19, 2014)

Lastly ... One of the more common bottles I have found several of - probably from the Teens / 1920s. None of them have maker marks or date marks ...


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## zecritr (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice Bottle went for a nice price. Sorry you missed it hope another comes up for you.


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## epackage (Feb 19, 2014)

Tough losing out on a bottle you've known about for so long and cherish, hopefully somene who was watching has one and decides to list it after seeing what this one brought, as is often the case around my neck of the woods. This Wm. S. Kinch paneled Lager Bier sold for... $450.00 + $11.50 shipping on 7/15/13$73.55 + $11.05 shipping on 7/25/13 I just picked one up for $20 that has a crack on the base but displays perfectly, hopefully one comes your way Bob.


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## Eric (Feb 19, 2014)

Keep looking.. there's one out there with your name on it... maybe run an ad in that area? or on craigslistyou never know... so don't give up... And good luck on that shoreline bottle hunt... sounds fun.


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## Aloysia (Feb 19, 2014)

Thanks for a great history of the bottle and the pictures!  I think that everyone has a story about missing out  on some particular item!  Let us know what you find on the shoreline!


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## splante (Feb 19, 2014)

nice bottle Iam sure you may get another chance...ditto from above interested in how you make out at the shoreline


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## iggyworf (Feb 20, 2014)

Great story. Good luck on the search.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 20, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for your comments - much appreciated.

I went to the reservoir/lake but because I had a limited amount of time I was only able to walk a fraction of the shoreline, most of which cannot be driven to and is only accessible by boat or walking for several hours. It's been years since the lake was full and at it's maximum capacity has about twelve miles of shoreline. At it's current level it has about five miles of shoreline. The area I was able to explore amounted to about 1/2 mile of shoreline and is the easiest to get to, which means a lot of weekend anglers and campers have already walked through the area and have snatched up the easy finds. But they didn't find the "Califruit" bottle pictured below. I found it in the crack of some rocks where most of the casual explorers were less likely to look. The bottle is dated 1939 and no doubt has been under water ever since - thus the loss of the acl label.

My main focus yesterday wasn't so much with the shoreline as it was with the area where the dam construction workers had there camp headquarters between about 1896 and 1912. The dam was started in 1896 and after a period of several years when the project ran out of funds was finally completed in 1912.

It was just below the site of the original camp where I found the broken upper portion of the Carboy/Demijohn bottle pictured on the next page. Based on what I know about bottle making, I estimate the age of the closure at circa 1910 and have no doubt it was used in some manner involving the dam construction and used for storing chemicals and/or a variety of other uses. It might not seem like much of a find to some, but for me it's a treasure because it's a direct link to what went on in the area during the early days of the 20th century. Incidentally, the lake and dam are located about five miles south of the old Buckman Springs bottling plant discussed previously.

I plan to explore more of the shoreline as time allows but next time will probably rent a boat so as to get to areas where others have not already picked it clean. 

The Califruit bottle on the left is the one I found yesterday and the one on the right is for comparison to show what a mint example looks like. The one I found was bottled in San Diego, California and even though it's it poor shape it's one I didn't have. 

(More pictures to follow)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 20, 2014)

Here's the Carboy/Demijohn closure I found below the old dam camp. Notice the seam stops at the neck and lots of bubbles - thus probably hand-blown. The other two pictures are ... 1. 1897 Dam Camp2. Bottle closure3. Old camp on the left and Dam on the right - Circa 1918


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 20, 2014)

And here's what the lake level looks like now. Just a few months ago the water covered the whitish areas but is below that now by a good 20 or 30 feet ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 20, 2014)

P.S. I forgot to mention that the Ranges at the lake are the only ones allowed to explore the shoreline with motorized vehicles. I was told they have been using four-wheelers and picking up every old lure, anchor, and bottle they can find. I was also told they have a cache of old soda bottles stashed away that haven't been cleaned yet and that they intend to display sometime soon. The Ranger I spoke with was the only one on duty at the time and unable to get away to show me the bottles but said I could come back at some later date and they would be happy to show them to me, which I hope to do next week and take some pictures and maybe even talk them out of a couple, especially if they have duplicates.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 20, 2014)

Lastly for the time being ... The picture on the left is of the lake around 1935 when it was at capacity. The picture in the center with the red line shows the lake's current size. The red arrow indicates the now drained cove where I found the Califruit bottle. The last picture on the right shows the approximate location of the old Buckman Springs bottling plant. Foot Note:  In case you haven't already discovered it, you don't have to click on the X in the upper right corner of the images in order to switch from one to the other. All you have to do is left-click anywhere on a given picture and it will automatically change to the next one in line. Try it - it's sort of like a flicker show ...


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## Uncle_Jarvis (Feb 21, 2014)

Cool thread Bob. .Love seeing the old and new pictures. .. Fascinating


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 22, 2014)

*Regarding the broken Carboy-type bottle I found ...*

I am only guessing as to it's age, but because it has an applied top, tooled neck, and is non-machine made, I believe it to be pre 1910 and it seems to fit the going's-on in the vicinity of where it was found which started with the dam construction in 1896.

But even more interesting than that is a series of events which began in late 1915 and climaxed in early 1916. It was in January of 1916 that the city of San Diego solicited the now infamous rainmaker, Charles Hatfield, to perform his magic and hopefully create rain over the drought stricken county. If successful, Hatfield was to be paid the sum of $10,000.00 for his services. The following link has a detailed account of the event, but I can tell you in a nutshell that not only did it start raining shortly after Hatfield set up his chemical spewing tower, but that it rained so hard and for so long that it filled Lake Morena to overflowing, which in turn caused torrents of water to rush over the spillway, creating millions of dollars of damage in it's wake between the dam and the Pacific Ocean some sixty miles to the west. The end result was that Hatfield never received a dime for his efforts. The city claimed the rain was an act of God. Hatfield filed suits against the city that remained on the books for at least twenty years, which eventually faded away with Hatfield never being paid the money he was promised.

Anyhoo ... the reason I mention this is because the Carboy bottle I found just happened to be somewhere in the vicinity of where Charles Hatfield erected his tower and had his camp. It's the type of bottle that someone like Hatfield could very easily have used for chemicals and other types of stuff used in his rainmaking process. Of course proving that the Carboy bottle and Hatfield are connected would be next to impossible, but even with those odds it's enough for me to think that maybe, just maybe the bottle was tossed away by Hatfield himself. And because the Hatfield event has such a historical aspect to it, I consider finding what might have been one of his chemical bottles to be a true treasure.

Here's the link to the detailed Hatfield account:

[URL=http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/70winter/hatfield.htm]http://www.sandiegohistor.../70winter/hatfield.htm 

The attached pictures are as follows ...

1.  Hatfield's chemical tower ~ 1916
2.  The broken Carboy bottle
3.  Hatfield in his laboratory ~ Notice the bottles on the shelves


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 22, 2014)

And just for the fun of it, check this out ... The black & white picture was taken in 1916 after Hatfield filled the lake. Notice the size. The second picture I took the other day from approximately the same location, but after the recent draining. The third picture is a copy of the second picture but I painted it to simulate the 1916 picture. Now left-click back-and-forth between the two color pictures and you will see the lake rise and fall as if by magic. Bob the Rainmaker   []


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## sandchip (Feb 23, 2014)

How tall is the amber example that sold on ebay?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 23, 2014)

sandchip said:
			
		

> How tall is the amber example that sold on ebay?



The seller doesn't mention the height, but the two halves (upper and lower part) of a broken example I have measure approximately *eight inches*.


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## sandchip (Feb 23, 2014)

Is there any embossing or just label only?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 23, 2014)

sandchip said:
			
		

> Is there any embossing or just label only?



I don't know about the eBay bottle, but the only embossing on my broken example is on the base which has the number *64* Correction on the height - as best I can determine by fitting the broken pieces together it measures *ten inches *high.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 24, 2014)

Here's the broken Buckman Springs bottle I have been talking about ... which is actually portions of two bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 24, 2014)

It's true what they say, you learn something new everyday ...

This past Sunday I had a couple of hours to kill and went down to the lake again to explore another section of shoreline. The only bottle I found was a 1953 Coca Cola Hobbleskirt, and even though it was broken in half, I decided to keep it anyway because it was marked in a manner I was not familiar with. I've seen my share of Hobbleskirts and thought I was familiar with most of the codes. But as you will see in the following pictures, the one I found has the Owens-Illinois mark on the base and the date and mold codes on the side. I haven't gone through all of my Hobbleskirts to double-check them, but I honestly don't recall ever seeing one where the Owens-Illinois mark didn't have numbers on either side of it. This got me to wondering about it so I did some research and sure enough found what I was looking for. Actually, I suppose I should say I found 'part' of what I was looking for. The part I'm still confused about is the letter *L*

This link is to a Owens-Illinois article by Bill Lockhart. Scroll to the subheading "Coca Cola Bottles" where you will find the following ...                 



[URL=http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm]http://www.sha.org/resear...s-Illinois_article.cfm 



"In 1951, two changes occurred simultaneously. The date code migrated to the left, and the manufacturer's mark moved to the base of the bottle. The remaining embossing on the skirt was the two-digit date code, a dash (-), then the two-digit mold code on the right. These changes occurred about mid-year, so Coke bottles are found with both configurations. Some Owens-Illinois-made Coke bottles actually used the standard Owens- Illinois format (e.g., 24 OI mark 4 - Porter 1996:4, 7).
 The Owens-Illinois mark on Coke bottles changed to the Oval-I mark about 1954 (when it changed on other bottles - see above). The final mark-related change on Coke bottles occurred by at least 1953 (probably in 1951), when Owens-Illinois began placing a smaller single letter above the manufacturer's mark to identify the plant making the bottle. Factories and marks included A (Alton, Illinois); B (Bridgeton, New Jersey); C (Charlotte, Michigan); F (Fairmount, West Virginia); S (Streator, Illinois); and W (Waco, Texas) (Porter 1996:4)." ~ * ~ Questions: 1. Is Bill's list of plant location codes complete or incomplete?2. What does the *L* stand for on the bottle I found? According to the various charts, the only Owens-Illinois plant that fits date-wise and starts with an *L* is Los Angeles. But Los Angeles is not on Bill's list. ??? If you have a similar Hobbleskirt with a solo letter and that has the Owens-Illinois mark without numbers on either side of it, please share it with us. Thanks. The marks on the bottle are as follows ... Side:          53 - 10Base:   San Diego, Calif.                       *L*                    <(I)> P.S.  ~  In about a week I plan to rent a boat and explore the remote north shore of the lake and hopefully find some real 'keepers'


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 24, 2014)

And here's the Owens-Illinois charts I referred to ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 25, 2014)

This image is from Google Earth. The one I painted is as follows ...

*Red *= The lake's shoreline when filled to capacity.

*YELLOW* = The lake's current size.

*GREEN ARROWS* = The north shore where I intend to explore by boat. There are no roads in this area and is only accessible by boat or foot.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 25, 2014)

Speaking of Google Earth, if you haven't used it yet, it is an amazing site that allows you to explore any location on the planet. It's primarily satellite images of the Earth but also has various other features including ground level "Street Views." The street views were accomplished by a van that drove around that had a 360' degree camera mounted on the roof.

But in order for the site to work you have to download it first, which is free and only takes a minute.

This link will take you to the download page ... 

[URL=http://google-earth.todownload.com/?lp=adwords&kw=Google%20earth&mt=e&ad=27135198918&pl=&ds=s&gclid=CK-YppXW57wCFTRo7AodfHMAEw]http://google-earth.todow...ppXW57wCFTRo7AodfHMAEw 

Once you have it downloaded, and are interested in seeing a Street View of the old Buckman Springs bottling plant as it looks today, just copy/paste the following coordinates in the upper left search box (click on the search symbol) and it will automatically take you to the location. In order to use the Street View feature, just click/hold and drag the yellow man to the intersection where the coordinates appear. And from there you can 'drive' (by using the mouse scroll wheel) and go either north or turn around and go south. The old house is just to the north of the intersection and the old bottling plant is just to the south of the intersection. Try it - it's easy and fun. And once you get the hang of it, you can visit your own neighborhood or anywhere else on Earth.

Good luck and please let me know if you have any questions.

Here's the coordinates. Just copy/paste them once the site download is completed. 

32 46'13.10"N 116 29'32.40"W


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 28, 2014)

Back to Charles Hatfield the Rainmaker ...

Apparently no one knows the exact location where Hatfield erected his tower and had his camp back in 1916, but based on the research I've done I believe I have narrowed down the location to within a quarter-mile section of land. The attached black & white picture is the only one in existence that shows Hatfield's tower as it appeared at Lake Morena in 1916. I have walked the entire two mile section of road in the area where the tower was said to be, and the color picture I took yesterday is the only place that even comes close to matching the 1916 photo. After locating the spot I only had about a half-hour to look around and will need to go back in order to explore the entire area. The only thing I found yesterday was a weird looking bottle cap that I believe is made of zinc or a similar metal. What's interesting about the cap is that it has the same residue incrusted on it that the Carboy bottle shard has. Plus it fits on top of the shard just right and might have been used to hold a cork in place with the help of some wire.

I'll post a picture of the shard and cap on the next page but for starters thought you might like to see the original picture and the one I took yesterday for comparison. I realize it's been 98 years and that things have changed, including black-topping what was once a dirt road, but otherwise this is the only location where the trees and other aspects matched up ...

1.  Hatfield tower 1916
2.  Similar looking location 2014


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 28, 2014)

And here's the Carboy shard and the zinc cap I found yesterday. I don't know what the crusty stuff is on the glass and cap, but I know it's permanent and won't scrape off ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Feb 28, 2014)

P.S. I think it's ironic that it was a clear, warm day yesterday while exploring the Hatfield site but is pouring rain today. I wonder if I conjured up Hatfield's rainmaking ghost?  []


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## Photon440 (Mar 4, 2014)

I don't log on here too often, but check every few weeks just to see what Sodapopbob has been up to.  This has been a great story, or adventure.  Thanks for the history lesson and letting us in on a bit of the excitement you've been having.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 5, 2014)

Ed / Photon440 Thank you for the kind words - they made my day! It just so happens today is the day that a couple of friends and I are renting a boat at the lake and plan to do some serious exploring along the north shore. I'm hoping we find some 'keepers' that won't get away. I will report back later and let you know what we find ...


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 5, 2014)

Must be a different North Shore. Ours is still kinda , well, frigid. [] but []! I'll cross my toes for you too.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 6, 2014)

We went to the lake yesterday, rented a boat, and explored the north shore area for about five hours. There are indeed a lot of bottles to be found, but unfortunately the majority of those laying on the surface of the lake bed are beer bottles from the 1970s and 1980s. With so many beer bottles laying around it is clearly evident that fisherman drink a lot more beer than they do soda pop. Because of the silt that has built up over the years, it stands to reason that most of the older bottles are still buried in the mud and hidden from view with no way to find them except by poking around and digging for the next hundred years. You will recall from my earlier post that the dam was completed by 1913 and only half-full in 1916 when Charles Hatfield did his rain making thing. And even though Hatfield filled the lake to overflowing, because it is a reservoir used for San Diego drinking water it was drained off and back to half-full again by the 1920s. Based on what the rangers told us, the silt buildup varies in depth from about three feet around the edges to about sixty feet at the base of the dam. Which means that poking and digging for hidden bottles would be an almost impossible task to accomplish.



But this doesn't mean we didn't find any older soda bottles, because we did. At one point we were cruising in the boat close to the shore when I spotted the neck of a bottle sticking out of the mud near the lake's current waterline. When we drifted in for a closer look I could see a bit of acl on the bottle's neck and knew immediately that it was some type of soda bottle. Because it was our first significant find of the day, I held my breath in the hope it was still intact and not broken. Moments later, and to my extreme delight, I extracted the "Wilshire Club" bottle pictured below. It's an Owens-Illinois bottle and dated 1947. Because of where it was found it has no doubt been under water these past 67 years and in pretty good shape considering. I don't know very much about the Wilshire Club Bottling Company other than it was located in Los Angeles and that the brand name was registered in 1933. I know they produced some earlier paper label bottles but not sure when their first acl was produced. In any event, it is a bottle that I did not have and consider it a true 'keeper.'

Another thing I found earlier in the day was a broken shard from a Gordon's Dry Gin bottle. But what's most interesting about it is that this squarish, eight-sided variety of the Gordon's bottle was apparently first introduced in 1904, which leads me to suspect the bottle might have been discarded by one of the dam's original construction crew members sometime between about 1904 and 1913. I'm not sure how long that particular Gordon's bottle design was used, but the shard appears to be pre-1910 and is non machine made. I will have to do some additional research and hopefully discover more about the dates related to Gordon's bottles.

But the story doesn't end here ...

Because of the lake's recent draining, which hasn't been this low since the mid 1960s, an Indian encampment was discovered along the north shore that apparently no one knew about until just recently. We weren't sure of it's exact location ourselves until we accidently stumbled onto it and noticed the numerous grinding holes in the larger rocks. The grinding holes are the result of years and years of grinding acorns and other food-stuffs like seeds. One of the pictures that follows is an example of a grinding hole along with the 'mano' stone used to do the grinding. We found three of these manos (which means 'hand' in Spanish), plus there were shards of pottery scattered everywhere. It amazes me that the pottery shards are still fully intact after being under water for the most part of 100 years - you'd think the water would eventually cause them to dissolve. During the time of the Indian encampment, 150+ years ago, there was obviously no dam and no lake and the area was simply a large mountain valley with a creek flowing through the center of it.    

All in all it was a great hunt and I plan to go back from time to time and hopefully find more "treasures."

The pictures are as follows ...

1.  Whilshire Club acl soda bottle - front - after being cleaned
2.  Back of bottle
3.  Gordon's Dry Gin - broken shards


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 6, 2014)

More pictures ... 
1.  Main part of the Indian encampment - jumble of rocks in the mid background
2.  Grinding hole and mano
3.  A beer bottle in the muck nestled in the crack of a large flat rock


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## Photon440 (Mar 6, 2014)

Well, I can see that it's time you acquired some ground penetrating radar equipment for your searches.  Nice find, and very interesting about the uncovered Indian grounds.  Great update, hope to see more.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 6, 2014)

Side-note ... I grew up in the Lake Morena area during the 1950s and 1960s and the mountain in the extreme distance of this picture was always nicknamed the "Dead Indian." It might be hard to see from this particular angle, but the nickname derived from what appears to be an Indian chief laying on his back. On the right is his head and he is wearing a feathered headdress that tapers to a point. In the middle is his stomach and on the left are his legs and feet. I think this picture is especially interesting and ironic because it shows a dead Indian encampment in the foreground and a so called dead Indian chief in the background ... which saddens me in more ways than one!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 6, 2014)

I will give you three guesses as to what this stone is called and who it is that's holding it?  It is possibly the best example I have ever seen or found   []


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## OsiaBoyce (Mar 6, 2014)

Looks kinda like a 'chunky stone'/discoidal that not indented.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 6, 2014)

P.S. In case anybody is wondering about the legal aspect of finding and keeping Indian artifacts on public ground, I wish to point out that the three manos we found were left at the encampment and buried in a spot that I alone know the location of. Even the two friends that were with me didn't see exactly where I hid them. But apparently this rule doesn't apply to the park rangers because some of the artifacts they have found are now on display in their office museum. As for the beer and other types of bottles and cans are concerned, they are considered unsightly trash and even encouraged by the park rangers to clean up and dispose of.


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## 2find4me (Mar 6, 2014)

Wow, wish I had a place to explore like that!!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 7, 2014)

I was out and about yesterday and stopped by the old Buckman Springs bottling plant to see if the recent rains had unearthed anything. As you will see in the pictures below there is a ditch that runs along the entire length of the property where they used to dump their broken bottles. This is where I found the broken amber bottle I posted a picture earlier and keep hoping that someday I will find an intact example. But unfortunately yesterday wasn't to be that day and, as usual, I walked away again with nothing more than a handful of broken shards. But even the shards are kind of cool and I have decided to start gathering up as many different base fragments as I can find and see if I can put together some kind of chronology as to what all was bottled there. I have some samples soaking in water now and will post pictures of them once they are cleaned up. 1.  View of the ditch with the old house in the background.2.  Close-up of one of the dump piles.3.  Section of old ceramic pipe that fed lithia water from the spring to the bottling plant.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 7, 2014)

While I was out yesterday I also took this picture of Dead Indian mountain to give you a better idea of how it looks close up. I added the wooden cigar store Indian to illustrate the mountain's profile.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 7, 2014)

I would like to emphasize that no disrespect is intended toward Native Americans by calling the landmark "Dead Indian Mountain."  That nickname has been used for as long as I can recall and originated by the areas first settlers. The mountain's geographical name is "Cameron Mountain" and was named after the Cameron family who settled in the area in the 1870s. The mountain's summit elevation is 3,952 feet as seen in this 1956 topographical map ...


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## hemihampton (Mar 7, 2014)

If you find the Wilshire Club in a cone top let me know. It's tough as a soda cone top & came in at least 5 different flavors in the can. Pic of mine below. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 8, 2014)

Leon I come across cone-top cans from time to time during my soda bottle hunts but every one of them was so rusted that they are unidentifiable. However, I did find five different varieties of the Wilshire Club cans on gono.com, with one of them pictured below. Here's the link which shows the other ones ... http://gono.com/v-tours/sodacone/scone43wclub.htm Of the two Wilshire Club bottles I found at the lake, I gave one of them to the rangers to display in their little museum. As it turns out, they said it was the best preserved soda bottle found so far, which I thought was totally cool.  [] *Joy Flavor / Orange  ?*


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 8, 2014)

FIRE!

We had a 100 acre fire today that started about two miles north of the old Buckman Springs bottling plant. The east winds, called Santa Ana's, were blowing in from the Desert at about 50 mph and whipped the fire into a frenzy. But thankfully to the firefighters and airplanes that drop fire retardants, they now have the fire under control. At one point they closed the highway, but that occurred after I drove up there and took the attached pictures. If you compare them to the others I posted previously, you should recognize the location. I'm glad my bottle digging grounds didn't get burned, but it came pretty close. Had the fire continued to spread to the west another five miles it would have reached Lake Morena.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 8, 2014)

When I took this picture the fire was just beyond the ridge about a half-mile away and headed straight for me. They closed the highway about a half-hour later ... [&:] ... but I heard afterwards that it never reached the road.


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## hemihampton (Mar 9, 2014)

BOB, Rusty unreadable cans OK with me. Crushed, dented cans also. I can fix them & clean the rust off. Heres a pic of a 100% rusty unreadable flat top I found. I only soaked top half in acid to clean & see what it was. a half & half experiment. Pic below. LEON.


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## cowseatmaize (Mar 9, 2014)

That's wild Leon. I had know idea that would be possible. Was that oxalic acid?


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## hemihampton (Mar 11, 2014)

cowseatmaize said:
			
		

> That's wild Leon. I had know idea that would be possible. Was that oxalic acid?



 Yes it was. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 15, 2014)

Back to Buckman Springs ...



In my opening comments I said the Buckman Springs lithia water plant was established in 1875 and that the amber blob-top bottle was one of the company's earliest bottles and that the paper labels have a copyright date of 1909. Well, I recently paid a visit to our local county museum, which I haven't been to in about a year, and discovered they have a Buckman Springs bottle on display that I had forgotten about and am trying to make sense of. The bottle pictured below is the one in question which you will notice has what I believe is a "Double Tapered Lip" which apparently dates between about 1815 and 1885. But notice that the bottle also has one of the 1909 labels on it. When I asked the museum curator about a 1909 label being on a possibly 1880s bottle, all he could tell me about it is that the individual who donated the bottle to the museum said it definitely originated from the Buckman Springs bottling plant and that it had been in his family since the early 1900s.

What I am trying to determine and need some help with, is ...

1.   Does the bottle in fact have a tapered-lip finish that dates between 1815 and 1885? Is it a straight-tapered finish or a rounded-tapered finish? Or some other type of finish?

2.   And what about the 'Lady-leg' neck? Based on my research, that type of neck was primarily used on brandy-type bottles - but I suppose it could have been used on lithia/mineral water bottles as well.  ???

But what confuses me more that anything else is the fact I have dug around the old bottling plant numerous times during the past forty years and never once have I found a broken shard with that type of tapered-lip finish. So it's really hard for me to make sense of the bottle, thus my request for help that will not only benefit me but the county museum as well. 

The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that the person who donated the bottle to the museum was merely guessing and that the 1909 label was applied at some later date and that the bottle and the label are not original to one another.

What say you?

It would be mucho appreciated if anyone can date the bottle pictured below to within about ten years.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can render me.

~ * ~

Here's a couple of links regarding bottle finishes and how to date them ...            

[URL]http://www.sha.org/bottle/finishstyles.htm#Mineral[/URL]

[URL]http://www.sodasandbeers.com/SABBottleLipsSoda.htm[/URL] 

*Double tapered lip, circa 1815-1885*

The type of lip first made its appearance on black glass wine and beer bottles. The shape second taper was a refinement of the earlier lips used on these bottles. The second taper was used to hold wire that was wrapped around the bottle and over the cork to hold it in place. This type of lip was the mainstay on Saratoga shaped bottles. Its popularity started to fade during the 1880s when it was replaced with the rounded taper.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Mar 15, 2014)

One more question ... 3.  What is the absolute earliest date for blob-top bottles?


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