# Help with dating this bottle



## Brian Tovin (Oct 24, 2016)

I recently got into bottle collecting by diving in some of the rivers down south (where I have dove for years for fossils), where steamship landings were. I found this bottle which is clearly free/hand blown. However, I am a novice and want to see if anyone can date it. From the research I have done, it looks like it could be 1700s.


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## Harry Pristis (Oct 24, 2016)

I think your French Bordeaux wine bottle dates to the mid-1800s.  The cleaner the lip string, the later the bottle.

That is a prodigious kick-up on your bottle.  Just for fun, how many ounces of water does the bottle hold?  If it's less than the standard 26 ounces, it may have been a "cheat" bottle which contained less wine than apparent.

edit:  I'm not certain now that the bottle is not a half-bottle.  If so, divide the nominal 26 oz. by two.

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## Brian Tovin (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks for the response. Here is another that I found on the same trip and this is more true "black glass" with and applied top, but I think its not as old as the first one... because the area where the punty rod was put in the pontil mark (not sure if I am using the right terminology) is not as deep.


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## Brian Tovin (Oct 24, 2016)

This final bottle I found is probably the least oldest (I am guessing late 1800s) because it is not as dark, the pontil is not as deep, and it is a different shape. By the way, all are free blown as none have mold seams. Thoughts?


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## Brian Tovin (Oct 24, 2016)

Lastly, this is the reference book I've been using.


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## nhpharm (Oct 24, 2016)

The first one you posted is the oldest by a long shot with the crude string lip and sheared top-likely 1850's-1870's.  The other two look to date around the same time and are classic 1890's-1920's era wines.  The coloration won't tell you much about the age, but the way the lip is constructed on these will.


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## Harry Pristis (Oct 24, 2016)

Brian Tovin said:


> This final bottle I found is probably the least oldest (I am guessing late 1800s) because it is not as dark, the pontil is not as deep, and it is a different shape. By the way, all are free blown as none have mold seams. Thoughts?



As NHPHM points out, color is a poor indicator of age.
Most of these later wine bottles do not have a pontil scar, were never empontilled.  The kick-up was produced by a tool called a "mollette."  Furthermore, these bottles were mold-blown, then turned in the mold to obliterate the mold seams . . . look for horizontal striations in the glass.
Ivor Noel Hume's books are great (I have three); however, he is describing colonial artifacts which are much earlier than your wine bottles.  Better is Van den Bossche's book, though it is expensive (I have a brand- new copy available -- PM me after you check the prices on Amazon).
French wine bottles can be difficult because the state of the art was sophisticated and the bottle forms are traditional.
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