# 911-------- where were you?



## RICKJJ59W (Sep 11, 2012)

Its hard to believe it has been 11 years.

 Its weird how you can remember every detail of that day. I was driving a dump truck hauling cut wood. The truck had no radio so I didn't know right away what had happened. When I got back to the job site everyone was acting weird,thats when I found out. I used my radio head phones the rest of the day to listen to the craziness  unfolding. NEVER FORGET.

 Oh yeah, it wound have been Lobes Birthday  Miss ya man


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## Conch times (Sep 11, 2012)

I was working on a road/parking lot  in downtown key west when a guy came flying out of the building saying that someone hit the tower. After that we were still working and then they said another plane hit the tower. Then the boss took us to lunch and when we finally got to see a TV we realized what really happened. We sat there the rest of the day watching it all unfold, I will never forget that day!


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 11, 2012)

so what happened 11 years ago? Some kind of big traffic accident?


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 11, 2012)

Driving North towards New York City on the Garden State Parkway in New Jersey.  I got up about to Edison and the traffic stopped dead it was Eerie listening to it unfold and seeing the smoke just 10 miles away. It was a beautiful blue sky cool Autumn day just like today.I will never forget that day. Two days later I was back up in North Jersey working in Jersey City in the tallest building in the City on the water Front. We were running Fiber Optic Cable from the basement up to the 10th floor for a Company who was located in the World trade center # 2 building for all of their voice and data services. I was a sub contractor for a Company named Concert Technologies. The had a contract with large private company's and the Government and Military interests.It was eerie in talking to a few employees as they watched their former home smolder. I remember one man said I hope we get the Bastards who did this....It took 11 years but we got all of the master minds behind it.


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## glass man (Sep 11, 2012)

I was still in bed when it started happing.Nina was watching her niece...the phone rang and I heard Nina yelling "GET UP GET UP!AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK!Well that got my attention and I cut the tcv on...and of course it was on near evey channel...It was a sad time for the USA and on a more personal level..Nina's mom was in the hospital at that time having cancer surgery...She died not long after 9/11...JAMIE


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 11, 2012)

This is a thread that every single member can relate to.  You had to be somewhere,where were ya.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 11, 2012)

I was dead during that period for tax reasons...


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## BillinMo (Sep 11, 2012)

I was at work, getting breakfast just a few minutes after the first plane hit the tower, shown on the TVs in the company cafeteria.  The cashier and I said a few words as we wondered what sort of plane guidance malfunction could have caused such a horrible accident.

 Back at my desk I proceeded with work.  A while later, a coworker mentioned the second plane hit the other tower and I felt that sinking in my stomach, realizing this was not an accident.  Within a couple minutes, we began hearing about the Pentagon crash.  The soap opera addicts shared their little TVs, letting us all watch.  We heard the reports of Shanksville, the confused reports of all air traffic being called in and reports of airplanes still in the sky that no one could account for.  Where were they?  What other sites were targeted?  Just how big was this plan?  The anxiety built as we waited.

 My office building was in the middle of Kansas City's financial and government district.  We heard that the Federal Reserve, the Federal office building, and all the courthouses shut down and sent employees home.  The police set up sawhorses around all government buildings, shutting down all nearby street traffic.  Just about everyone in Kansas City remembers (with a chill) that Timothy McVeigh's original plan preferred Kansas City and he changed it just a day or so before the Oklahoma City bombing.  And on 9/11/2001, we had no idea who was behind it all... was it the same group?

 Our leaders sent word that we'd continue business as usual.  I remember at one point walking from my desk to the copier, and I had to walk along the windows.  I looked out at all the empty government buildings and blocked-off streets, occasionally seeing a police officer or security guard in front of a doorway.  It was spooky.


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## mtfdfire22 (Sep 11, 2012)

i was in my 8th grade geography class and just got into a fight with my teacher about "WHO THREW THAT PAPER PLANE AT ME" of course he thought it was me when in fact it was not. i made this perfectly clear as i kicked over my desk and screamed at him for 15 min. for trying to give me detention with no proof of my insolence then the attack happened and after class he apologized and told me to hurry up to my next class so i wouldnt miss the news we were all watching.
  never had an issue with that teacher again.


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## logueb (Sep 11, 2012)

We had an Inspector who was constantly watching news on his computer,( even though we were not supposed to use the computers except for company buisness).  He broke the news to the rest of us, and I thought that it must have been a small plane that had mechanical problems.   We were watching as the second plane hit.  I will never forget that day or the feelings.


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## Plumbata (Sep 11, 2012)

Freshman in HS, during my 1st period algebra class taught by Mr. Schick, who was both extremely nice and extremely brilliant. He had a small radio on and the class was all listening to the report. I remember quite clearly Mr. Schick commenting that he figured that Osama Bin Laden was behind it. I had never recalled hearing that name before that day and knew nothing at all about him. Next period everyone in the school assembled in the auditorium to watch the event unfold on TV. Pretty surreal.

 Then they cancelled school for a few days because parents/faculty were worried that the school would get attacked by terrorists, haha. I thought it was stupid as hell but ya won't see me arguing about getting extra free days.


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## SkinsFan36 (Sep 11, 2012)

Woke up early (for me) to go surfing that morning but sat down and flipped the TV on to one of the morning shows to see that a plane had flown into the World Trade Center. I was thinking "how does somebody fly a plane into something that big? Maybe the pilot had a heart attack or a seizure". I flipped over to CNN to see if they had anymore coverage and yelled to my mom who was on the phone that somebody flew into the towers. Not a minute later I watched the second go in live. A pure pit formed in my stomach of fear and sickness as I watched. I hope I never see anything like that again. Awful.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 11, 2012)

The only good thing that came out of this for me is that today is my wife's birthday and now it is easy for me to remember.  God bless America.


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## deenodean (Sep 11, 2012)

I was in the basement when the phone rang. It was my mother, she said ' are you watching the TV ' ?  I said no, it is to early for that. She said turn it on, The United States is under a terrorist attack. The World Trade Center buildings were hit by airplanes.  When I turned it on I could not believe my eyes! What a horrible thing ! I went flashback to May 22, 1998 when the Mrs and I were on the South Tower as tourists. We were outside on the 110 floor!! What tall and immense buildings. I could not believe it was happening, surreal being an understatment! I can't imagine the horror those people went through. It is sad what humans can do to others.
 I went outside and will never forget looking up in the sky and seeing airplanes making 180 degree turns, all of them ordered to land at the nearest airport. None landed where we live but many were diverted to Halifax, Gander and St.John's Newfoundland. On the bright side of humanity, all passengers and crews were put up by total strangers. 6000 in Gander alone. Many people forged lifelong friendships with those who showed hostility. Here is an article in from today's CBC News from Newfoundland.
 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/09/10/nl-911-911-anniversary-subdued.html

 We saved our World Trade Center Pass stubs...


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 11, 2012)

> Mr. Schick, who was both extremely nice and extremely brilliant


 
 would you say he had a mind like a razor?[]


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## Plumbata (Sep 11, 2012)

LOL, and yes Matt I would agree! He is a genius without a doubt and probably could have been a top-level faculty member at a prestigious university, but he truly loved teaching high school students and spreading the love and understanding of math to younger and inherently more impressionable people. Back in 2001 he had somehow wired his house so that he could use his cellphone to operate the lights, garage door, and many other things. Pretty sweet. He also liked making jokes about smoking weed behind the school dumpster, lol.

 Before 9/11, the only bit I knew about the Taliban was that they were an ignorant group of islamic extremists who were actively destroying priceless ancient artifacts/sculptures/buildings which were not in conformity with their beliefs, like the giant Buddhas carved into living rock. That bothered me a great deal, but I never entertained the thought that they would take it to the next level. The world is a crazy place.


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## epackage (Sep 11, 2012)

I was on the waterfront in Jersey City having coffee with my fellow construction workers, we were watching the fire burn and had heard that a plane had gone into the first tower. None of us went back to work as we watched the building burn, it was then we noticed another plane coming in from our right and we could tell it was flying way too low, when it hit the tower we all just looked at one another and gave each other big hugs.

 A few guys went into the city and stayed for a few days doing what they could to help, I can't drive into JC past that building without a tear coming to eye, just retelling this story makes me tear up. It's a day that's imprinted on my mind because of how close we all were to the towers, I wish I had never gone to work that day...[]


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## Bixel (Sep 11, 2012)

I was in grade 8 in a classroom. I sat right beside the computer, and my job throughout the day was to keep the class updated on news. We used the CNN website. I happened to refresh just as the breaking news of the first plane hit. I told my teacher, who had me and another students rush to get the TV from a storage room just down the hall. Our entire class, and some other staff watched in our room as the second plane hit. It was all surreal to me, but even being fairly young, I knew that what I had just watched was going to change everything we knew in a big way.


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## druggistnut (Sep 11, 2012)

I had gotten up, was drinking coffee, reading the paper and and had something on TV, in the background. 
 I heard the news break and went to see what was happening. When the second plane hit, I got all my T-50 gear together, packed my ruck, got in my uniform and headed in to my military unit.
 There were already guys there and we all waited for orders.

 >>It took 11 years but we got all of the master minds behind it.<<

 Steve, I have to beg to differ. We still haven't gotten this scum bag. You know he is looking over his shoulder. Your time is coming, al-Zawahiri.

 http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticle/504f786cc110c0d17b000001/ayman-al-zawahiri-confirms-death-of-al-qaeda-deputy

 Bill


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## andy volkerts (Sep 11, 2012)

Was at work in Santa Clara, Inspection of concrete for a slab at IBM. no tv onsite just a radio, I didnt really know the horror of it all until at twooclock the jobsite shut down and we all went to a bar just down the road and watched it on CNN. Will never forget those planes crashing into those towers. Somehow felt that the government should have known this was going to happen. Sort of like Pearl Harbor, only we were not at war, at least not yet.........


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## cyberdigger (Sep 11, 2012)

My brother woke me up with a phone call: "The world trade center is GONE!" I had a little trouble believing him so turned on CNN.. watched for a few hours, then drove up to  MOUNT MITCHELL in Atlantic Highlands and saw the plume of smoke.. by mid afternoon the winds carried the trail of smoke down over the Jersey shore and I could smell it in Long Branch.. the weather today was actually almost identical to that day, making it a slightly creepier anniversary. Last week I worked for customers who lost a son that day.

 NEVER FORGET!


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> My brother woke me up with a phone call: "The world trade center is GONE!" I had a little trouble believing him so turned on CNN.. watched for a few hours, then drove up to  MOUNT MITCHELL in Atlantic Highlands and saw the plume of smoke.. by mid afternoon the winds carried the trail of smoke down over the Jersey shore and I could smell it in Long Branch.. the weather today was actually almost identical to that day, making it a slightly creepier anniversary. Last week I worked for customers who lost a son that day.
> 
> NEVER FORGET!


 

 Yeah I was just saying that today Chuck,the weather was spot on. Cool in the morning then mid 70s. Where I work jet planes fly over head daily.that was a weird feeling just seeing that. I remember the air space was dead after 911. Creepy


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  AntiqueMeds
> 
> so what happened 11 years ago? Some kind of big traffic accident?


 
 YEAH some Azzholes hit us[] But we went around the block and hit the baztards back!!


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## Jim (Sep 11, 2012)

I was at college for a short while in 2001. I found out from one of my professors. Everyone was just shocked. I had the same fears as everyone else, "How many more?", "Someone I know?"

 I had never in my life had a desire to torture and kill anyone, but on that day, if I could have gotten my hands on even just one of the filthy animals who had any part in that mass murder and destruction, I would probably still be afraid of myself to this day. I still feel great joy and vindication every time one of those murderous creeps gets taken out.  ~Jim


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## bobble (Sep 11, 2012)

> so what happened 11 years ago? Some kind of big traffic accident?


                                                                                                      What is that supposed to mean?What happened 11 years ago puts me in places that led up to the towers. The Achille Lauro,where we went darken ship and general quarters,only to find out it was terrorists who unmercifly threw an old man in a wheel chair overboard just because he was a jew!        Watching planes come back,hotseat pilots,[who by the way,I know wouldn't lower themselves to make a comment to this  inane statement,tho I'm enlisted,so I will.]  that went back up and brought a needle in a haystack back.In '79,we were pulling people that had drifted a ways into the Yellow sea,fearing we would give them back to the Kmer rouge,who were still terrorizing their own people.So if you really mean this,to keep a sophomoric comment up on a day like today,just remember you can stll do it in this country only!


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  bobble
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I AM SURE HE MEANT NOTHING BY IT HES SUCH A JOKESTER  RIGHT GUNTH[8D]


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## bobble (Sep 11, 2012)

Not today.


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 11, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  druggistnut
> 
> I had gotten up, was drinking coffee, reading the paper and and had something on TV, in the background.
> I heard the news break and went to see what was happening. When the second plane hit, I got all my T-50 gear together, packed my ruck, got in my uniform and headed in to my military unit.
> ...


 Well get him Bill,
 We cant let our guard down they WILL hit us again its not if its when.  We need to p i s s on the UN and don't give up our sovereignty. What I fear the most is an inside job by one of the Muslim extremists in our own military, another Fort Hood type incident on a much grander scale. We have the military might to do literally as we know is in our and the worlds best interest. We don't need the United Nations approval.  THEY NEED US with out us they are NOTHING. You wanna see how to win a war quickly its coming to a theater near all of us. Watch Israel annihilate Iran in the coming days or weeks. They fight to WIN because their very survival as a nation depends on it. As a nation we owe no apologies to one. Yeah I remember it...... every day,especially when I travel by air,go to any Federal building .....Yeah I remember where I was and what I was doing on 9-11-2001 []............. I know I felt a lot better on 9-10-2001.....[8|]


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## bostaurus (Sep 11, 2012)

I was standing in the kitchen getting ready to start our home school day.  My husband called from the base (Ft Sam) and told me to turn on the TV.  The base went to high alert as well as all the units.  Needless to say we did not have school that day and I tried to my kids what as happening...hard to do when you don't understand yourself.


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## hunting262 (Sep 11, 2012)

Well I was 16 months old so......... I was sleeping.

 My mom was on the phone to the bank when it was breaking news and she told the person at the bank and they both started freaking out. Then my dad was at work and we went to visit him. And I don't have a clue what my brother was doing... I think watching TV or something?


                              VERY sad day though for everyone who lost a family member or close Friend that day.[][][] I'm glad we got bin laden dead though.[]


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## ktbi (Sep 12, 2012)

I was on my way to work when the first plane hit. Radio news said a small plane hit one of the buildings, then amended that to say an airliner.  I called my daughters at home and had them throw a VCR in the machine and record the news so I could watch it when I got back.  I wasn't aware, at the time, what was really going on.  At work, everyone was in a daze.  We set up a TV in the video conference room with everyone walking in and out throughout the day.  Nothing productive that day.  I still have the tape but have never watched it....Ron


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## surfaceone (Sep 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: druggistnut
> 
> I had gotten up, was drinking coffee, reading the paper and and had something on TV, in the background.
> I heard the news break and went to see what was happening. When the second plane hit, I got all my T-50 gear together, packed my ruck, got in my uniform and headed in to my military unit.
> ...


 
 Hey Bill, and you, too, Steve,

 Did'ya see this:
"Zawahiri's Brother at Cairo Embassy Assault


 11:21 AM, Sep 12, 2012 â€¢ By THOMAS JOSCELYN

 During the assault on the U.S. embassy in Egypt, demonstrators reportedly chanted â€œObama! Obama! We are all Osama!â€ They yelled this obvious reference to Osama bin Laden as an al Qaeda-style flag was hoisted and the American flag brought down. At least one of the protesters at the anti-American rally knows a thing or two about al Qaeda: Mohammed al Zawahiri, who is the younger brother of al Qaedaâ€™s emir, Ayman al Zawahiri. 





 [/align]Mohammed al Zawahiri has even claimed credit for sparking the anti-American protest. â€œWe called for the peaceful protest joined by different Islamic factions including the Islamic Jihad (and the) Hazem Abu Ismael movement,â€ he said, according to CNN. Islamic Jihad is most likely the Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ), a core part of al Qaedaâ€™s international jihadist coalition.
 The younger Zawahiri has been on a media tour since he was released from an Egyptian prison this past March. And some press outlets have portrayed him as a reformed moderate. In its coverage of the embassy storming, _The Wall Street Journal_ said that Mohammed al Zawahiri â€œhas renounced violence and has stylized himself as an intermediary between Islamists and the West.â€
 (On a side note: _The Wall Street Journal_ piece also says that al Qaeda is â€œwidely believed to be responsible for the 9/11 attacks.â€ Eleven years after 9/11, the newspaper should be able to set aside all doubt about who is responsible.)" 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/zawahiris-brother-cairo-embassy-assault_652217.html





http://m.indianexpress.com/news/death-loving-zawahiris-brother-proposes-peace-plan-to-end-jihad/1001506/


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 12, 2012)

Yes I saw that Surf, We need to send the seals into Cairo and anywhere else they are needed to get our people out of harms way and just let the savages kill each other because that is all they deserve anyway. They will never have what we have achieved, there jealous, they hate us for it,and they deserve the poverty and the hardship they live in because of the path they have chosen to go down in Life. There is nothing we, the United Nations, other moderate Muslim nations or anyone or anything can do about it as their sole reason to get up every day is to wreak havoc on the Western World not provide for their families or form some kind of moderate coalition who could govern themselves judiciously. 

 Its not a small handful of misguided extremists its the whole lot of them,its their way, their culture it is all they know. Could you imagine being Israel all these years enduring the hundreds of cowardly terrorist attacks they have had to deal with. God Help; Israel....... and God help the good people in Iran because they are about to get kicked in the gut so hard by the Israeli military air strikes they are not going to know what hit them. They are not just going to take out their nuclear ability they are going to DESTROY the military capability of the entire Iranian Military force. Tiny Israel the size of Rhode Island will show us once again how to win a war decisively. I know there are good Muslim people in the world and they suffer tremendously because of this large group mind numb Idiots who are easily led by the misguided clergy they follow. I have never seen a more hateful, group of people then the hard line Muslims behind ALL of the terrorism in the last 40 years...... Our president needs to stop apologizing for us UNNECESSARILY when it was we who were attacked not the Libyans. 

 The Libyian diplomats should have been escorted to the airport and all the monetary aid we send there Country shut off,same thing goes for Egypt,and any other Muslim Country who has similar views and environments So yeah I am reminded again I NEED to remember where I was in 2001.......... Come on call me a bigot bring it on...... Sorry for the rant, it hasn't been such a good day for the United States.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 12, 2012)

> send the seals into Cairo


 
 sorry they are too  busy writing tell all books.


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## surfaceone (Sep 12, 2012)

So Matt,

 You'd recommend sending in the New York Times Book Editor?






 President Obama today interrupted his fundraising & campaigning, and said a few words.






 then he continued on to Las Vegas.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 12, 2012)

a great forum for non-bottle nonsense here...
 http://www.debatepolitics.com/forum.php?s=7acb0ab1469aaf273de2a6dcaf5b4968


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 12, 2012)

Lets not turn this thread into a political NiGhTmarE I just asked where you were on 911. You guys are something else with that crap. You can turn a thread on Mary Poppins into a political roller coaster in a matter of minutes.    

 We all remembered where we were, the end. ---------911 is over.


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 12, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> a great forum for non-bottle nonsense here...
> http://www.debatepolitics.com/forum.php?s=7acb0ab1469aaf273de2a6dcaf5b4968


 

 You heard the man


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 12, 2012)

Are bottle people sometimes a little delusional, this is a lot bigger then bottles Matt, are you that callous to what happened 11 years ago and continues today to say some of the nonchalant things you said on this post. I know it was in jest by you because you absolutely cant stand political bickering. You dont have to be a flag waiving American to be impassioned about the current events.  I respect your knowledge and insight you bring to this forum with your life's work and it is much appreciated,but why cant politics be discussed in the non bottle section. The only thing hurt is feelings for a little while and it is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in some of our lives right now.  Forget the ONE Seal who told all, but remember our and their fearless leader today WHO SAID NOTHING FOR HOURS. Why is discussing these life altering events labeled as nonsense in your eyes. Bottles could be a distant memory for all of us soon.  Rick..you wont be digging privys when the terrorists bring it back to our shores again you'll be digging fox holes.     We all remembered where we were, the end. ---------911 is over.   sorry not for some of us Rick and apparently not for you either as it was your post and you felt strong enough about it to ask us.  No hard feelings here I can move on but I shouldn't have to walk on egg shells when a topic which can become heated is being discussed.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 12, 2012)

Back to the original intent:
 It was a Tuesday. I know because I have always had Tuesdays off and I often try to get out diving. I was packing my gear up to go that morning when my finace (we just celebrated our ten year anniversary!) called and told me to turn on the TV. I spent the rest of the day watching in horror. One of the positives that seemed to come out of this tragedy was that there was a real and genuine sense of purpose and unity in being an American. Thank God for George W. Bush, Rudy Giuliani, and all of the brave firefighters, police, and emergency personel who took charge, saved lives, and added purpose to the quest we began that day. We were determined then to stand as Americans and not to let any differences distract us from the path of justice. How far have we come from that ideology?

 I was lucky enough to dive yesterday and had fun. I love this hobby and the freedom I enjoy in this country to pursue it.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 12, 2012)

one little post note;
 We went to Lambeau field to watch the Packers play shortly after 911. There is an airport nearby. A plane flew over the stadium (on it's regularly scheduled route). You could have heard a pin drop. Not a sound from the stands as everyone watched the sky. An announcer then came on the PA and informed the crowd that planes fly near the stadium and that we should not be alarmed . . .


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 12, 2012)

second post note.
 My brother and I dove in the Milwaukee river that November after we had heard reports that tons of bottles had been found when they were digging footings for the Hoan bridge. At that time people were still worried that bridges might be targets for terrorists. As we were searching a huge coast guard cutter intercepted our 18 foot boat and questioned us. When they saw two english speaking balding white guys, they eased up on their concerns. They asked us to leave but said that it was not their juriddiction and would not bother us again.


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## mctaggart67 (Sep 12, 2012)

I had just arrived at the Helsinki, Finland airport and was walking through the concourse. The Finnish army were just starting to come into the airport as a security measure. I spent the rest of the day in the hotel, switching amongst three tv stations. CNN gave the American perspective, BBC gave the British perspective, and Europe's French Channel 5 carried CBC English-language feeds, with the occasional French-Canadian feed, and this gave the Canadian perspective.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm a bit dissapointed they just built one new tower.
 I think they should have built two new ones looking the same as the old ones except one foot taller.
 That would make a statement.


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## cyberdigger (Sep 13, 2012)

Lemme share a practical application of the events of 9/11 as well as yesterday in this context:

 People say things which rub others the wrong way, but rarely do they kill the offending wordsmith because of it, at least in my surroundings, which I am blessed to be surrounded by.. as this world's population devolves into what it is, and unfortunately will become, it's increasingly important to carry the torch of an enlightened, tolerant, industrious civilization, full of basic rights and freedoms and also accepting of the differences amongst humans... until someone attacks us, then we should eviscerate them.  Then go back to work and keep busy being civilized and prosperous.


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## twowheelfan (Sep 13, 2012)

i live in the lower east side NYC. i was at work in brooklyn when the plane hit.
 i went to the roof of the one story shop that i was working at and saw the destruction. i was telling people to take it easy, it happened to the empire state bldg in the 1940's a plane hit and it was bad, but the building is stronger than you think.with all the smoke and such it must look much worse than it actually is. i called my wife who was somewhat close with our 1 year old daughter to ask if she knew anything. she didn't know any more than i did but she would call if she heard anything. then i watched the second plane hit.
 game changer. now i knew that it wasn't an accident. i called my wife again, no answer her cell phone reception went dead. got her on the land line. pretty much sat there on the roof aghast. then the one tower fell. now i wanted to go home. the fighter jets were racing by now like they were doing some airshow, too low and too fast for peacetime. i called my wife again but this time no land line. scared now. jets,  tower down, no contact with wife and baby so close. second tower went down. i went to go home but the williamsburg bridge was closed off. stuck in brooklyn with family in nyc. got cellphone calls from several concerned family members in AZ andCA. asking how we were but i had to tell them that i didn't know what was up with my wife and kid. finally later i was allowed to walk over the bridge to my house (4 miles) only to find tanks and army type vehicles blocking my street with guys that were carrying m16's asking me for my ID. all quiet. not a single taxi, car, airplane or anything. and the smell.... if you ever smelled a house fire that is exactly what it was like. not a bonfire or campfire, the smoldering acrid smell of things that were not supposed to burn. my family was ok. i have a few friends who lost loved ones there. im sad for them. i still don't really know what feelings i have. still kind of processing. my dad was in vietnam in 1963-4 and never really talks about it. i understand now a little.


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## twowheelfan (Sep 13, 2012)

never forget, what the hell does that even mean?


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## cyberdigger (Sep 13, 2012)

What I don't want to forget is that our world is loaded with azwholes who want to kill who they hate and who offends their profit. They want to kill them so bad that they will die in the process.. to be a hero of their polluted cause, rather than have a worthy, productive, civilized life.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 13, 2012)

> I'm a bit dissapointed they just built one new tower.


 Gunth. I realize that you are trying to be funny and that you don't like non-bottle talk. But honestly, this is so far below your consitantly high level of posts that I wonder if an imposter is posting under your name.

 Gunth, maybe you like to yank a few chains now and then. I'm suggesting that this isn't the right way. Thousands of people died on Spetember 11th. It wasn't a fun day and it's certainly not funny.


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## twowheelfan (Sep 13, 2012)

or send others to die.


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## cyberdigger (Sep 13, 2012)

Let's all synchronize our gyroscopes here and agree it was a day of change, indelible, and prerequisite to what is yet to come..


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> What I don't want to forget is that our world is loaded with azwholes who want to kill who they hate and who offends their profit. They want to kill them so bad that they will die in the process.. to be a hero of their polluted cause, rather than have a worthy, productive, civilized life.


 
 "Never forget" 
 The Azzholes there are many, and yes,some want to kill us. Be on guard never forget!

 Some Azzholes are  harmless its hard to forget them also [8D]


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## GuntherHess (Sep 13, 2012)

> I'm a bit dissapointed they just built one new tower.
> Gunth. I realize that you are trying to be funny and that you don't like non-bottle talk. But honestly, this is so far below your consitantly high level of posts that I wonder if an imposter is posting under your name.
> 
> Gunth, maybe you like to yank a few chains now and then. I'm suggesting that this isn't the right way. Thousands of people died on Spetember 11th. It wasn't a fun day and it's certainly not funny.


 
 I'm totally serious about that. The best way to show terrorist bullies that they cant affect America would to build the buildings back exactly like they were or better and move on as if nothing happened. That shows them they cant affect us.  Every time we reitterate how injured we were its a victory for them.

 That's the problem with allowing non-bottle talk, you often get opinions you find offensive.


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Well said,
  Matt and you are correct about building them as they were and moving on. Reiterating injury can seem whiny agreed but they still are a huge threat to our way of life. They can never be trusted fully.  They are like the neighbor who moves in with two Staffordshire Terriers who are allowed to roam free about their property and you are assured they are friendly by the owners.  You have two young kids who play in the neighborhood and even though you tell them to stay away from the neighbors dogs kids are kids and something can still happen even though you have put in place to the best of your ability every rule and regulation possible. Yesterdays events reminded us of a time not long ago.


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## GuntherHess (Sep 13, 2012)

You should never forget history and some acts should never be forgiven.
 But, I imagine if Osama was alive he would be thrilled to read a thread like this where he could see how he had made a lasting mark on the infadels' culture. I would not give them that small victory.

 Plus I'd rather be talking about bottles...


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## Steve/sewell (Sep 13, 2012)

Agreed, then go here for Petes sake!!![]  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/What-really-happened-at-Crowleytown%25/m-547192/tm.htm I Posted some new info today. Not one thing to do at work real slow this week.


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## blobbottlebob (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks for the clarification Gunth.


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 14, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> You should never forget history and some acts should never be forgiven.
> But, I imagine if Osama was alive he would be thrilled to read a thread like this where he could see how he had made a lasting mark on the infadels' culture. I would not give them that small victory.
> ...


 

 Osama didn't make a lasting mark on us, we as "Americans" made a lasting mark by sticking together, moving on and rebuilding. 
   They can NEVER make a mark on us. No matter what they do.


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## Plumbata (Sep 14, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  twowheelfan
> 
> never forget, what the hell does that even mean?


 

 It's like "Remember the Alamo" or "Remember the Maine". They are simple, memorable slogans used to coalesce and unify a nation's people under a cause; ostensibly for justice, but in reality it serves to focus and direct collective greed and bloodlust against a common enemy. It's a "tit for tat" justification at best. Mexicans have land we want? Make them seem evil and take it from them! Spain supposedly blew up the Maine? Well let's go kill them and take over a bunch of lucrative territories! Praise God and his_ one true_ nation and system of government!

 And in trampling upon the rights of sovereign people and nations, we collectively feel patriotic and morally justified! How wonderfully convenient! []

 A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001? Well let's go start calling French Fries "Freedom" fries, let our idiot rednecks commit hate crimes against peaceful Muslims and Sikhs, and go invade several sovereign nations; carpet-bombing them and killing many tens of thousands of innocent civilians in righteous holy retribution. Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples, and convince ourselves that everything we did was not only good for them, but downright immune from criticism because GOD IS ON OUR SIDE! []

 Sure Rick, we can say that they didn't leave a mark on this nation, but we sure as hell have left behind some gigantic craters and chasms in several other nations. But we are the USA after all, and inherent to the nature of being the most powerful nation on earth we enjoy the distinction of being incapable of doing any wrong. Everyone who disagrees is a heathen and vile enemy who must be obliterated.

 Don't get me wrong; I love the USA, our enlightened founders and the freedoms we enjoy, but neither we, those in power, nor the world at large are constructed perfectly. No sense in pretending otherwise.


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## twowheelfan (Sep 14, 2012)

thank you


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## epackage (Sep 14, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> It's like "Remember the Alamo" or "Remember the Maine". They are simple, memorable slogans used to coalesce and unify a nation's people under a cause; ostensibly for justice, but in reality it serves to focus and direct collective greed and bloodlust against a common enemy. It's a "tit for tat" justification at best. Mexicans have land we want? Make them seem evil and take it from them! Spain supposedly blew up the Maine? Well let's go kill them and take over a bunch of lucrative territories! Praise God and his_ one true_ nation and system of government!
> 
> ...


 +1


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## Plumbata (Sep 14, 2012)

Well thanks folk, glad that resonates with at least a few people.

 I'm really not trying to get in any arguments or heated discussions here; it's just that reading all the comments here made me want to rant a little. To all of you who have served or are serving I am honestly very appreciative. I'd imagine that those who set out to serve this country (rather then be served *by* the country []) do so with pure, good, and honorable reasons. I do not have so much faith in the idea that heavy-handed and unbalanced retaliation is morally justifiable (or even effective), however. "Eye for an eye" is fine, but if you chop off their head instead, the hydra of discontent and righteous anger will sprout many new ones. It's a can of worms that will never be fully resolved in the manners thus far attempted.

 I feel the pain that we as Americans share when our fellow citizens are mistreated or murdered, but I also feel the same way about everyone else in the world, whether or not it is politically correct within the American sociopolitical framework to actually care about them. It's not just unfair to rate our value as human beings higher than those who are different; it is inherently ignorant and wrong. Something about the black/white, dogmatic, and unthinking "America is #1!" (Americans are better than everyone else) nonsense disturbs me to the core. There is much good we can share with the world, but there is a hell of a lot we can learn and improve upon as well. 

 I dunno if Charlie's "busy being civilized and prosperous" and other thoughtful sentiments are understood on this end as he intended, but I agree that we should try to be a beacon of enlightenment and tolerance, and personally feel that we should "Put America First" rather than meddle so much in the world. It is simplistic and idealistic but I'd rather see the bulk of our military forces here at home getting paid to carry out improvements to our infrastructure that the DOT can't afford, for example, then have them "accomplish" goals around the world that are far more mercurial and ambiguous in terms of discernible benefit to the people of the USA as a whole. I've had several friends join the Army/Marines, and they get sent to Germany, Japan, etc, and when they get back and I ask what they did over there their replies involve sexual escapades with the locals, heavy drinking, getting paid to drive/ride "big boy toys", and generally getting pampered with housing aid and whatnot. I mean seriously, where's the beef? [] I guess 1 friend who is a career Marine is being useful and productive now, but certainly not all enlisted are in it for life. 

 The Western Roman empire collapsed for manifold reasons, but they included a debasement/devaluation of currency, over-extension of the military all over the frontiers, lack of economic productivity due to complacency, decay of infrastructure/institutions, and other factors which parallel what seems to be going on today. It is a simplistic rundown but I'll be damned if it doesn't apply. I get the sense that the USA is getting spread rather thin, and superficial concerns like "more Jobs!" or the utter extirpation of Islamic extremists from the nooks and crannies of the world will do little to save us in the long term unless deep and fundamental internal changes for the better are made. One look at the average American though, and all I can think is "Yeah... fat chance." []


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## druggistnut (Sep 14, 2012)

I had NOT seen that, Surf. Thanks for including it. We've all heard the old adage about the apple and the tree...
 I see that the Yemeni govt has arrested four in the death of our four Americans. They need to keep on going. Take them in a helicopter 500 miles out in the middle of the sea and airdrop them from 1000 feet.  No cellphone cameras, no video equipment allowed.
 Bill


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## druggistnut (Sep 14, 2012)

>>sorry they are too busy writing tell all books<<

 The guy is a civilian now, and can write whatever he wants. He served his time and someone else stepped in to his shoes. Just like the two guys who died with the Ambassador, former Seals.
 Bill


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## surfaceone (Sep 14, 2012)

> A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001? Well let's go start calling French Fries "Freedom" fries, let our idiot rednecks commit hate crimes against peaceful Muslims and Sikhs, and go invade several sovereign nations; carpet-bombing them and killing many tens of thousands of innocent civilians in righteous holy retribution. Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples, and convince ourselves that everything we did was not only good for them, but downright immune from criticism because GOD IS ON OUR SIDE! []


 
 Hey Plumb,

 I'm not drinking the "small handful of extremists" Koolaid that the Obamaites are pushing. Not saying you're a dreaded Obamaite, either.

 Yesterday I read an AP article that ran on 9/11 about the lesser number of 9/11 Memorial services that were to be held on tuesday's 11th anniversary, and the diminished attendance at same.

*We forget the lessons of 9/11 at our extreme peril.*

 This article was prior to the assassination of Ambassador Stevens in Benghazi, and the siege, and flag burning in Cairo.







 Also before the charm offensive that is taking place through much of North Africa & the Middle East.






 US Embassy, Tunisia





 US Embassy, Yemen






 German Embassy, Sudan

 This is war, Stephen. Make no mistake about it. It's not the "war" of my youth, but it is of yours.  It's not a war against a nation or two either.

 Say. I know you were likely too young to remember the Highway of Death in Kuwait.






 Pretty much convinced the Kuwaitis they were at war, and they better call someone for help, *FAST.*

 Who was called, again? That's right, it was the good old US of A.

 I object to the following, "Oh, and profit immensely from appropriating their resources, impose our foreign mindset and political system upon their traumatized and bewildered surviving peoples..."

 Please do show and tell me of these "appropriated resources," who did the appropriating, and where those resources are now? The poor "traumatized and bewildered" eh?






 Here's a few Iraqi guys, looking none too bewildered. Scripted, supplied with props, and told what to do perhaps. Have you noticed any of these signs?
















 There's individuals and groups at work in those regions that we know precious little about. I do not think them bewildered, nor friendly.

 But then, I'd find time to meet with Prime Minister Netanyahu, were he to be in the neighborhood.

 Plumb, again, no attack or animus from me to you. After all it's probably Romney's fault...[8D]

 [8D] Is this Ryan in mufti? [8D]


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## cyberdigger (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey Surf,

 I'm not always on your page but this evening I want to thank you for this particular non-bottle contribution.. a major global war is happening, or beginning to happen.. or has been beginning more and more to begin to happen more and more.. meantime the once feared and respected citizens of the USA are getting soft, stupid, and lazy. Present company excluded, of course.. not their fault because they were born and raised in a welfare state. It's the same as communism but without the gulags and stuff. It removes the spirit and ambition, the hard work and sacrifice that builds character. As our buddies over in Muslim world are demonstrating: if you over-populate, under-educate, and give free rides to the people of a place, you will grow only zombies in that place.. !


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## Plumbata (Sep 14, 2012)

Well done Surf, thanks for the current perspective. I really don't pay much attention to either Obama or Romney so neither potential influence is to blame for my ignorance. []

 Appropriated resources include Gold, Opium/Heroin, lucrative resource-exploitation based contracts, and I suppose elements of their cultures and societies which have been "colonized" by western interests.



> ORIGINAL:  surfaceone
> Here's a few Iraqi guys, looking none too bewildered. Scripted, supplied with props, and told what to do perhaps.


 
 I suppose I was being a tad melodramatic, but may I refer to this comment:




> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> "Eye for an eye" is fine, but if you chop off their head instead, the hydra of discontent and righteous anger will sprout many new ones. It's a can of worms that will never be fully resolved in the manners thus far attempted.


 
 I'd say that the current wave of discontent was triggered by overzealous, excessive, or culturally insensitive actions on our side (being "the west"). Not to say it is justified, certainly, but we aren't exactly blameless. Looks like we're stuck with the reinvigorated hydra whether we like it or not. 

 Hell, I bet it can all be traced back to 1948, or why not go back further to the British rule of Palestine and the Zionist Commission? The Jews boldly reasserting themselves in a Muslim-dominated arena was a bad idea to begin with (like setting up a colony of cats in a region controlled by wild dogs), and when the state was established the US and much of the west stood behind them. I doubt the Muslims would care much about the USA if we weren't politically married to Israel, but religious sentiment and politics are inseparable and a predominantly Christian nation will naturally view their monotheistic forebears with a sentimental fondness not exhibited towards those who adhere to the heretical younger religion of Islam. Having pretty much engineered/supplied their military, and having generally supported them and their Zionist conquests of additional Arab/Islamic territory over the years hasn't helped out our image in the poorly educated and easily indoctrinated Islamist regions. Ultimately, Israel and the USA have become the greatest threat to their religion and culture and they probably feel that the only way to preserve their way of life is to kill or be killed. Sure ain't a political historian but that's my view. 

 Many of us westerners are educated and hope that diplomatic resolution is possible, in addition to military force and violence if the former is not possible. The poor uneducated people of these regions don't know a thing about diplomacy; all they know is the pain and suffering that they themselves or those they identify with have endured as a result of what is perceived as US and Israeli meddling. The only thing they know how to do, indeed the only course of action that they can put their "faith" in involves violence and brutality as a response-in-kind. The fact that many of the disgruntled masses of Muslims are uneducated and ignorant of the ways of the world is immaterial. They think what we are doing is evil and wrong and what they are doing is good and right. We think that what they are doing is evil and wrong and what we are doing is good and right.

 Two opposing views can't both occupy the space of "objective correctness" at the same time, so the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that both sides, in sum total, are wholly or partially incorrect. A real cluster##ck kind of situation we've got going on here.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 15, 2012)

> The guy is a civilian now, and can write whatever he wants.


 
 not true. When you are granted a clearance you agree not to divulge information you are granted under that privalage until it is de-classified.
 If I did it , I would be arrested in a minute.  He gets special treatment because people are afraid there will be a backlash if the government goes after a perceived hero. 
 The seal organization is immensly unhappy with this person.
 Legally the question is how far did he cross the line in what information he has exposed. That is for the CIA to decide.


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## epackage (Sep 15, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> 
> 
> A small handful of extremists kill 4,000 US Citizens in 2001?


 I'm buying it Plumb, in Cairo alone there are 85 million people and only 1000 were at the US Embassy, it was excatly the same at all the other embassies. What we need are more Bible Thumpers running this country so we can get more and more involved in the Holy War the sand people have been fighting for thousands of years, that seems like a great idea...SMFH[:-]

 Spreading democracy and imposing our beliefs on the rest of the world sure is fun...


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## surfaceone (Sep 15, 2012)

> in Cairo alone there are 85 million people and only 1000 were at the US Embassy,


 
 Hey Jim,

 Are you getting this geographical tidbit directly from Debbie Wasserman Schultz? I think there's a missing decimal point in there somewhere. Sure would hate to be the census taker in Cairo...



> Spreading democracy and imposing our beliefs on the rest of the world sure is fun...


 
 You gotta place credit for this latest bit of spreading & imposing squarely at the feet of that little ole Bible thumping President Obama.






 Here he is with his former pastor, Rev. 'Thumper' Wright.

 I'm not sure that "sand people" is an approved phrase in the State Department lexicon, either.


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## epackage (Sep 15, 2012)

No missing decimal point, just meant to type Egypt and not Cairo. This whole mess in the region started with your Uncle Georgie Boy, that Frikkin Idiot, and like all he's other messes he left it to be cleaned up by someone with a brain. Sadly you seem to have the same disease as George these days, and it's good to see your getting your "facts" from a Rupert Murdoch paper, you've become as big a joke as Rupert himself...


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## surfaceone (Sep 15, 2012)

> This whole mess in the region started with your Uncle Georgie Boy, that Frikkin Idiot, and like all he's other messes he left it to be cleaned up by someone with a brain.


 
 Hey Jim,

 Still on that same old "Blame Bush" DNC talking point, eh?







 As I recall, when President Bush left office. Mubarak was still in power. The Egyptian Revolution took place entirely during Mr. Obama's term, so I'm not sure how that reinforces your point.

 The Libyan Civil War also occurred entirely on Obama's watch. This is where we learned about "Leading From Behind."

 Surely you remember President Obama's famous Cairo speech "A New Beginning" from February 4, 2009.

 Seems like that whole concept didn't work out so well.


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## andy volkerts (Sep 15, 2012)

[8D] Well he did get us into a war with Iraq, which ooops didnt have weapons of mass destruction after all. He did help cause the stock market crash with the workings of his administration. He did sit in a classroom with a really stupid look on his face as the towers came crashing down. He did wait forever before helping the Katrina victims. And he couldnt put fourteen words together without some kind of stupid gaffe. and a lot of other crap too but you blind rightwinger warmongering industrial establishment types always blame the other side for his and your shortcomings. I know Obama isnt perfect but at least he can talk intelligently and not sound like some stupid redneck off the farm with no common sense. Sorry if I have hurt any feelings but the consevatives in this country hate it when liberals use their tactics against them. So I for one do not miss Bush at all or his evil vice president Cheney, which I believe really ran the country, because bush wasnt smart enough to do so, He was a cheerleader for g__sakes!!.........


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## epackage (Sep 15, 2012)

This whole fiasco started with Bush the elder, a man who I admired alot because I've always thought he was a great president when it came to foreign affairs. He did what he needed to do in the first Gulf War and then got the hell out of there, he didn't put thousands of lives in jeopardy in a drawn out affair to try and oust Saddam. Sadly that's why I believe the Idiot Bush Jr. decided he was going to get us involved there again, to show his daddy he wasn't the F'up everyone on the planet knew he was based on his previous dealings in the business world. 

 He was a man who was lead around by the nose by Dick Cheney, and instead of building an international coalition like his father he decided for a unilateral approach that has lead to a giant mess in the region, and I feel this has helped spawn the situation we have there today. Since I consider myself a centerist as opposed to your far right vision of the world, where the US can't ever be wrong because God wants us to be the best, and no liberal idea can possibly be any good I'd have to say that you're much more of an RNC talking points kind of guy than I am for the DNC. I belong to a Union here in NJ and after my first 6 years in the union I got sick of all the phone calls imploring me who to vote everytime there was an upcoming election, so I went down to the union hall and told them in no uncertain terms that if they ever called me or sent letters trying to tell me who I should be placing my vote for I would be in there kicking asses. To this day I do not contribute to the union's PAC Fund and even threatened them with a lawsuit at a union meeting if the $2 an hour was ever taken from my pay because I don't think towing the party line is ALWAYS the right thing to do, sadly this does not seem to be the case with you. Tell Hannity, Limbaugh and Levin I said hello...


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## epackage (Sep 15, 2012)

Surf, I looked thru this post again, the one that was supposed to be about where we were on 9-11, and as seems the norm lately you were once again the one member turning a thread into you own personal Obama bashing thread, just like the one, two and three word games. I've decided rather than argue with you and say to you what I really feel about you these days I'm just gonna hit the green button and ignore your need to make this your own personal site for hating the President and consistently acting like an ass. I'll leave you to your devices and wish you the best of luck, hopefully we never meet in person, be well...[]


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## bobble (Sep 15, 2012)

Oh for pitys' sake,I've been listen'n to everyone since I posted on this thread,Knowing that someone like the big E,Surf,Steve S.,Rick or Gunth would be far more articulate than I in Explaining themselves on this topic.
                                     Remembering where we were on that day,What we were doing.I too flew off the handle right off the bat , should've put it in a different thread.I certainly don't begrudge the gentlemans' comment I was replying to.It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.I visit the mans' site now and again,and He sure doesn't need any approval from me.I'm the rookie around here,and need all the help I can get.I've never been accused of having the greatest ideas or being the smoothest in completing a job.I need a leader.If I don't admit that to myself,it could cause grief to allot of people I care for.
                                  I'm not a Union man,but I know very well we need the Unions.I believe welfare took the 'Man' out of Manhood but I know we need it.I believe that for a long time this country hasn't been led in a positive way.I think not being led correctly leaves one confused,I mean,if your not moving forward,WTH are you going ?I keep everything in context by paying attention to family,who somehow are taking care of themselves,spending time out in the woods(this is my favorite time of year)yard sales,(found a Wheaton)and touching base here at the blue pages,where a person can get instruction,info,show off,vent,and still be treated like family in a sense.I'm not a unique person in this habit,I'm sure.I know I wouldn't want to visit this site,the one and only one I will,if any of the guys and gals who are head & shoulders above me,stop.


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## AntiqueMeds (Sep 15, 2012)

There are lots of people on this site who I would probably never hang out with in real life.
 They have totally different views of the world in almost every aspect.
 What's cool though is we can discuss bottles in this one 
 small spot on the internet and not worry about all the rest of the world drama.
 I want to keep my azz focused on the glazz.


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## RICKJJ59W (Sep 15, 2012)

This thread started out bringing us all together  with a common bond, then it slowly went back to the way it was "A who's right political war".
   Once 911 passed. we were back being our augmentative selves,well some of us. 
   It took a little longer for people to get to that point with 911, but on the internet things happen overnight.


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## epackage (Sep 15, 2012)

Don't feel bad Rick, look at it this way, at least Surf got the chance to once again voice his political BS regardless of the topic. Freedom at any cost, even if it gets 4 innocent Americans murdered overseas, as long as some nutjob gets to make Muslim hating videos so guys like Surf can have a place to lay the blame on President Obama. Kinda like walking into a packed movie theatre and yelling fire and then blaming the people who run the movie theatre, isn't it great??

 But it's all good because Surf uses his abilities to research bottles and post the answers in a very cool way so that people think he's here to talk bottles, now there's no need to wonder why he hides himself from everyone here. Always making sure never to appear as online here, hidden contact and personal info, a ghost who's real purpose is now exposed...


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## surfaceone (Sep 15, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Surf, I looked thru this post again, the one that was supposed to be about where we were on 9-11, and as seems the norm lately you were once again the one member turning a thread into you own personal Obama bashing thread, just like the one, two and three word games. I've decided rather than argue with you and say to you what I really feel about you these days I'm just gonna hit the green button and ignore your need to make this your own personal site for hating the President and consistently acting like an ass. I'll leave you to your devices and wish you the best of luck, hopefully we never meet in person, be well...[]


 
 Hey Jim,

 I'm gonna reply just in case you missed that green button. 

 I've no "hate" for President Obama. I do think him incompetent on many levels. Campaigning, speechifying, and offering false hope & change, however, are his strong points.

 I've got no hate, nor hard feelings for you either. I have friends who are diametrically opposed to my political views, and that's fine, we can still have a good discussion, argument, or whatever you wanna call the dialogue. Because we're "friends" we can joke around about who's got what what wool pulled over his or her eyes. We don't feel the need to pick up our marbles, and decamp in high dudgeon.

 September 11th was this past tuesday. I remembered my old friend and former classmate who died in his office in the South Tower. I went about my day. That evening I learned of the attacks on our Embassy in Cairo, and our consulate in Benghazi. I sat there in shock, flipping back and forth between the "news" channels, trying to learn more. 

 My number one son is at school in New York, I had warned him on the 10th to be doubly vigilant, and called him the night of the 11th. He had not yet seen the early reports from Cairo & Benghazi.

 I wrote a long response the other day to Matt's posting:



> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> ...The best way to show terrorist bullies that they cant affect America would to build the buildings back exactly like they were or better and move on as if nothing happened. That shows them they cant affect us.  Every time we reitterate how injured we were its a victory for them.
> 
> That's the problem with allowing non-bottle talk, you often get opinions you find offensive.


 
 I happen to agree with him on the rebuilding, oddly enough; though not on the restriction of speech aspect. Unfortunately my earlier reply went up in a poof of pixels when I got timed out on the site.

 I don't get "offended" by the opinions of other Americans, even when they are as wrongheaded as some of the ones I've read here. [8D]

 I did look back on President Obama's big speech in Cairo about a "New Beginning." It was delivered June 4th, 2009, rather than in February. Pursuant to Matt's thoughts about our "reiterating" our injuries being a victory to the terrorists:

 "And finally, just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never alter or forget our principles.  Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country.  The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals.  We are taking concrete actions to change course.  I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year.  (Applause.)" President Obama, Cairo, 6/4/09.

 As amusing as are the Obama whitehouse.gov team's inclusion of the "Applause" lines in this speech transcript, President Obama was still in campaign mode when he spoke to the Islam side of the world in Cairo. 

 And then he went to see the Pyramids...






 Well written speeches, promises of "Hope & Change" unfulfilled as they are, make for wonderful photo-ops and campaigns. An effective foreign policy, they do not make. President Obama ended the war in Iraq, and then walked away. He's telegraphed the end of the war in Afghanistan many times. I do not understand the need to hand a withdrawal calendar to the enemy far in advance.

 I keep asking myself why was Ambassador Stevens ostensibly unguarded and defenseless in Benghazi on September Eleventh, of all days. This was a failure of the US State Department, Hillary Clinton, and President Obama.

 Rick, I see you are seemingly unhappy with the direction this thread has taken. On 9/11/01, I was at the bank early, waiting in line for seemingly ever, when I finally got my business done, the manager waved me over to his office and pointed at the television. I was just in time to see a 737 fly into the World Trade Center. I'll never forget that.

 I said to the manager, "Greetings from Osama bin Laden!"

 He looked at me like I was speaking Martian, and said, "What?"


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## Plumbata (Sep 15, 2012)

*HISTORY!*

 This here, my friends, is one of the major weaknesses displayed by both sides of this extraordinarily complicated debate. Over the years so many inherently good people here have been drawn into the divisive fray characteristic of modern politics. Y'all wonder why Gunthmeds is against this? It's because factionalism and uncompromising division of beliefs is one of the death knells of a society, whether as big as a nation or small as this forum! Even though I may disagree with the politics espoused by some I still like you all as individuals (well, most of ya []).

 PLEASE, instead of attacking the politics and characters of individuals can we sublimate the knee-jerk reactions into a higher-order and more civil discussion of theory and history, if it is to be discussed at all?



> * Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.*


 
 Back when GB Jr was President I got into a very interesting conversation with a brilliant but troubled homeless ex-marine named Jack. The first sentence he spoke to me included the word "modicum" so I figured he was worth the time []. I was dissatisfied with many of Bush's manners and methods and Jack said to me that despite his faults, he is still the* leader of the nation and Commander-in-chief* and as such is owed respect and deference even if one disagrees with him. Took me a while to internalize the statement but it is the best policy if one wants to maintain a relatively harmonious society. So what if you dislike Bush or Obama? Show some respect and express your disapproval with your vote!

 The only presidents I like and agree with are all dead. I don't find the modern manifestation of the Republicans and Democrats or liberals and conservatives appealing at all. All sides are saturated with idiocy, unthinking dogma, and unrealistic or untenable agendas. Neither side seems to have an intelligent and enlightened plan for the long-term future; they just thrive on taking a step forward or pushing their opponents a step back, and seem to equate this silly reciprocal motion with actual progress. I'm a minarchist libertarian (tons of wackos in this category too lol) who loves the idea of personal freedom to pursue happiness and business more than just about anything else. Fiscal conservative and social liberal. Liberty or death and freedom for all, my friends. I may be criticized as a head-in-the-clouds idealist but I'd rather reside in the realm of beauty and harmonious industry than fight pointless fights with my fellow man. Pyrrhic victories are the best one can hope for when fighting amongst ourselves in this manner.

 Surf may lay down some pretty heavy politics but I doubt that spreading his personal political "brand" is his main agenda. Maintaining general anonymity isn't nefarious; some people just don't like being an "open book" for anyone and everyone to read, which is rather typical in regards to the way older generations approach their activity on the internet. He is well-read and enjoys posting current archaeological news as well as political news. His politics are important to him and just like the bottles that are important to us, he is driven to share with others. Both Jim and Surf have vibrant and strong personalities, and when engaged in a similar pursuit great things happen. Agreeing to disagree in the best plan here.

 In regards to differing personal politics, I'll refer back to this:




> ORIGINAL:  Plumbata
> 
> Two opposing views can't both occupy the space of "objective correctness" at the same time, so the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that both sides, in sum total, are wholly or partially incorrect.


 

 The same applies here. No one is objectively correct. Not me, not Surf, not Jim, not Matt, not Rick, not Andy, not Obama, not Romney, not anybody. The complexity inherent to politics is so extreme that no human mind is capable of understanding or observing the "big picture" and its multitudinous historical roots as it exists in objective reality. Each of us and our unique personality types and life experiences subconsciously dictate to us what elements we see and how we interpret them, thus informing our own personal beliefs. Do what is right in your heart and if it includes spreading your ideas; do so with well-documented historical fact and leave out your opinions and summary judgements so those on the receiving end can make up their own mind without feeling forced to think the same way.


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## surfaceone (Sep 15, 2012)

Hear, Hear! Stephen,

 Very well said, as usual.

 Historically, it's all so eerily Carteresque, except on a much broader front.

 Here's a map of "the protests" as of yesterday.





From.

 The good old _Atlantic_ has this:






 "Red indicates violent protests over the film, yellow indicates non-violent protests. Click to enlarge. (Wikimedia/Atlantic)" From.

 All this talk of "the film" is such a red herring. These riots in the Arab Street are no more about some Youtube video than the man in the moon. You've seen the crowds. How many of those guys know what youtube is?




Voice of America.

 The biographical highlights of Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, that I have seen, have been shifting and almost entirely unsavory. With that many aliases, it's gonna be a hot minute before we know the story on that guy, or who is pulling his strings.

 The more I look at Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, the worse it looks. Why is this man and his associates not in an ICE facility on the way back to Egypt?

 Is this part of the President's new immigration "policy"? [8D]


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## cyberdigger (Sep 15, 2012)

Your "% muslim map" is screwed up.. India is mostly Hindu.


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## surfaceone (Sep 15, 2012)

Right you are, Chuck.

 "Islam is the second-most practiced religion in the Republic of India after Hinduism, with 13.4% of the country's population (over 160 million as per 2001 census)." wiki-Islam.

 "My" map was from _The Atlantic._ I suggest you straighten those birds out. [8D]


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## cyberdigger (Sep 15, 2012)

Well doesn't make much difference anyhow does it.. a billion of this persuasion, a billion of that.. sorta takes the sport out of it.. leaves it to the most demented trouble makers to cause a stir.. present company excluded, of course.. !


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## rockbot (Sep 16, 2012)

Abraham Lincoln in 1851 was asked if he would be interested in running for political office. His response at the time, " There is but only two jobs
 that require no skill, a politician and a teacher".


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