# ST DRAKE 1860 PLANTATION BITTERS Dating



## Rick (Jul 8, 2007)

Is there any way to properly date these bottles? Is there an age difference in the 4 log and 6 log versions? Thanks for any info.


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## KentOhio (Jul 8, 2007)

Brian S. is the guy to talk to. I think the 4-logs are usually older, but I also think I've seen one or two pontiled 6-logs.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 9, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: Rick
> 
> Is there any way to properly date these bottles? Is there an age difference in the 4 log and 6 log versions? Thanks for any info.


 
 Hi Rick , 
 It is generally believed that the 4log variant is the earliest ( because they are usually much cruder than the 5 and 6 logs ). I have been doing some research on this , and have found little actual evidence of this being true. I talked to another Bitters collector at the Knoxville Show this year and we had quite a lengthy discussion on this topic ..... and he brought up some very good points on the 6 log variant being the earliest. The company started in 1860 and went to mass producing in 1862. The 1860's thru the 1870's were their biggest production years. The product was produced for over 30 years. 
 There is one known ( believed to be unique )  pontiled variant ...... it was in the Carlyn Ring Collection ( it was expanded to become bulbous , and had a rough pontil mark ).  I have seen a several copy cat bottles that are very simular to a Drake's mold that have iron pontils .
 I hope I didn't totally confuse you , and I helped answer your question.


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## bearswede (Jul 9, 2007)

Great information, Brian... Thanks...

 There's been discussion on another thread about pontillation and dating using Drake's as one example... I guess what we sometimes forget is that there are no lines of demarcation... techniques don't stop immediately everywhere all at once... They fade in and out gradually thru space and time... Those folks who seek black/white sharpness of boundaries in glass blowing processes will always be disappointed I guess...


 Ron


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## cowseatmaize (Jul 9, 2007)

Just a note.
 The Bertand set out from St Louis on March 18, 1865. Over 100 Drakes were recovered and they were the six log type. So 6 log were around before that time.


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## appliedlips (Jul 9, 2007)

From a digging standpoint,I have never seen a difference in the ages of the two.I haven't dug many intact examples but have dug a ton of broken ones.The six logs show up in the early 60's holes and are almost all I dig,so the difference may be regional more than age.I only dug two broken Drake's that I can remember in New Hampshire dumps while living there,they were 4 logs.Doug


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## GuntherHess (Jul 9, 2007)

> pontillation


 
 Isnt that what bees do to flowers? []

 Crudeness doesnt always indicate an earlier version (but it usually does). 
 Even being pontil marked doesnt guarantee one example is older than another smooth based version.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 9, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Your correct !  I have found no solid evidence that the 4 log is an earlier mold than the 6 log . I was just always led to believe it was from other old time collectors. A lot of the early advertisments also have 6 logs pictured in the ads .
 You are correct on the pontils . The copy cat Drake's that are iron pontiled are later than the smooth base 6 loggers from Whitney.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 9, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: cowseatmaize
> 
> Just a note.
> The Bertand set out from St Louis on March 18, 1865. Over 100 Drakes were recovered and they were the six log type. So 6 log were around before that time.


 
 Eric , 
 Do you have access to any info on the Drake's that were found on the Bertrand ?  I'm curious if they were just plain 6 logs ( D 105 , 0r D 108's )...... or maybe 6 log variants ( such as Arabesque , or maybe the no " X" variants. 
 There are several different 6 log molds ..... and I'm curious if some were blown at different glasshouses at the same time period Whitney was blowing the Drake's.


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## Rick (Jul 9, 2007)

A book called _The Bertrand Bottles _has pictures of all the bottles along with line drawings of the sides and even the bottoms. If only all bottle books were like that. 

 There were also 6 log Drakes on the Stamship _Republic_ that went down off the coast of Georgia in 1865.


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## appliedlips (Jul 9, 2007)

Brian,

     This whole book is available free on line,I have been to the link several times but can't seem to find it tonight.It is in a file on a National Park Service sight.Rick is right,it is very informative and well written.Doug


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## KentOhio (Jul 9, 2007)

The Ravenna Glass Works in Ohio was blowing Drakes in 1864. I wish I knew which mold.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: appliedlips
> 
> Brian,
> 
> This whole book is available free on line,I have been to the link several times but can't seem to find it tonight.It is in a file on a National Park Service sight.Rick is right,it is very informative and well written.Doug


 
 Doug ,  If you happen across the link again .... I'd appreciate you sending it my way.   Thanks


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: Rick
> 
> A book called _The Bertrand Bottles _has pictures of all the bottles along with line drawings of the sides and even the bottoms. If only all bottle books were like that.
> 
> There were also 6 log Drakes on the Stamship _Republic_ that went down off the coast of Georgia in 1865.


 
 Thanks Rick !  I am familar with the bottles found by the Odyssey Marine Exploration ( Republic ) .
 But , I am not familar with the bottles of the Bertrand.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

> ORIGINAL: KentOhio
> 
> The Ravenna Glass Works in Ohio was blowing Drakes in 1864. I wish I knew which mold.


 
 Kent , Where did you get this info ?


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## Rick (Jul 10, 2007)

The bottles on the _REPUBLIC _are in a book called _Bottles from the Deep._ Just colored photos of the bottles, no pictures of the bases. 

 Looks like we have the 6 logs down, any of the 4 log ones that are able to be pinned to down to a certain time?


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

This is what Dave Bowers wrote  :  In the past it has been popular to attribute mold variations to " different glasshouses " , but I belive it logical to assign the production to just a few glasshouses , each of which may have used many molds . As most glasshouses used independent mold makers . It seems reasonable to attribute significant differences in style and format to different mold makers rather than different factories , although the answer may be a combination of both.
 Whitney , Salem , and a unnamed Lancaster ( Pa. ) glasshouse have been identified as makers of Drake's Plantation Bitters bottles by former writers.  Factual evidence is hard to come by ; literature on the subject indicates that most modern writers have simply followed suggestions of Steven Van Rensselaer ( Who named the Whitney Glassworks as a maker ) and others.         Reference ( Bottle World ) , and Dave Bowers


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

Here is an 1873 newspaper advertisment . You will notice that the bottle pictured is a 4 log . But , the artist may not be accurate with his drawing ......... as the bottle looks short and sqatty . 
 And to add to my confusion ...... you will notice that the Drake name is mentioned nowhere ..... not on the drawing of the bottle or in the ad.


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## BRIAN S. (Jul 10, 2007)

Here's a trade card from around the same period as the above newspaper ad . It is a six log and does bare the Drake's name .


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## appliedlips (Jul 10, 2007)

Try this Brian www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/bertrand/bottles.pdf   Scoll down throught the list to  THE BERTRAND BOTTLES  it is under T.Hope this helps,Doug


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## KentOhio (Jul 10, 2007)

From an April 6th, 1864 newspaper:

*"Ravenna Rock Glass Works, for the Manufacture of Druggist's Green Glass Ware, Black and Ruby Bottles, &c."*
 (P.S. Does anyone know what black and ruby bottles meant in those days?)
*...The reader can form some idea of the extent of bottle comsumption in the United States from inspecting the following figures, showing the amount of glass ware of this kind, used by a very few firms, who give a portion of their orders to the Ravenna Rock Glass Works...*
*D.S. Barnes & Co., New York, for Plantation Bitters and medicines, $200,000....*


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