# What are these



## Tomgor (Jan 17, 2005)

Hi everyone

 I have got this group of bottles in a bequest from my grandfather and I wanted to sell them. Can anyone tell me the best way to do this in the UK. I can post more detailed pictures if needed. To give an idea of scale the large bottle is about 14 inches high and very heavy.

 Any comments appreciated.







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## WhiteLighting (Jan 17, 2005)

WOW!,Black Glass/Utility glass......
 GIN,......Matter of fact early 1800's 1700's?.......Guys help this person out!

 do any have wax seals left on them?


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## WhiteLighting (Jan 17, 2005)

The squarish one is called a dip-mold case gin,either its Dutch or english "anyone have info for this guy?".......plus its lip/top is crooked which is a + when selling due to it being a imperfection "in my opinion though"....



   the others we would need to see the bases to see if they are Pontil,and also any markings "On one of the seals you said theres a crown",I have looked through 2 books so far but no info yet......check in a few hours these guys will have an answer for ya....


  I tried.


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## bigkitty53 (Jan 17, 2005)

Hi Tom,
 To echo Lobeycat,a VERY handsome collection indeed![8D][8D]Are you sure wish to sell this lot?Sentimental reasons aside,there are some excellant bottles in that collection,(and they are not anything you will likely ever replicate again![:-]) the sort of bottles that will appreciate in value as long as you hang on to them.

 IIIFFfff you do decide to sell,please post a notice/link to your Ebay page on this forum,there are a few collectors here I know would be interested![8D][8D]

 (Kumtow,that bodyseal is mine![]l.o.l.)

 KAT


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## kumtow (Jan 17, 2005)

Like hell it is Kat[][].   The bottles look like they are English except for the seal at the rear.  That one looks continental.  Hard to tell with the gin without looking at the bottom.   Some very nice bottles there Tomgor especially if they don't have any chips or cracks.  These bottles do well on eBay.  Price has come down a little though as the market has been a bit flooded lately with bottles from a dutch fort in South America.


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## BRIAN S. (Jan 17, 2005)

Hi Tomgor and welcome to the forum !
  I would be interested in any of the glass seal bottles if you decide to sell outright. Just drop me an email. And if listing them at auction ...... please inform me of when they go up for bids .  
  Thanks , Brian


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## Tomgor (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks for all your posts. Very much appreciated. I'm slightly confused as to the opinions regarding ebay. Is this the best place to sell or to buy? If I was to put them into auction here it would take a few months and would miss most of the world market. However, as I don't have any clue as to starting prices I'm hesitant to put them on ebay. If anyone can give me pointers as to an opening price/reserve it would be very helpful. They are pretty much undamaged except for the small squat one which has a small amount of the lip missing, though this is a very old damage and may be intrinsic to the bottle. The very large one looks in the picture like it has some of the top missing  but it's all there just that it has kind of melted to one side.

 Will certainly keep everyone informed as to where they do go.

 Tom


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## bigkitty53 (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Tom,
 Ebay is great as it allows bidders from all over the world,maximising potential bids. These Particular bottles,being freeblown,and mostly with seals,should also do well with one of the big auction houses' specialist auctions.(Eg. Christie's,Skinner's,etc.)Either auction venue will have previously sold similar items to give you an idea of what you can realize.I won't give you any values myself as I would be very interested in bidding on a few of your items myself,and wouldn't want any of my fellow forum members crying foul! Suffice to say,these are largely bigger-ticket items,some bids will run into the hundreds.

 Hope this helps,

 KAT


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## Tomgor (Jan 18, 2005)

Should I put them on as a group or seperately?


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## IRISH (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Tomgor, welcome to the forum.
 Firstly I'll just say HOLY %$# thats some good stuff [] ,  a few of that those where made before there where even whitefellers living over here [8D] (according to populer history anyhow [] ).  secondly I'd say you are better off selling seperately.


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## BRIAN S. (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Tomgor , 
 Selling them seperate is the way to go. As far as ebay goes ...... I wouldn't worry about putting a reserve on them if your not trying to recoop any $$$$ you have invested in them.  Better stuff on ebay usually brings a fair market value.  And it seems you get more bidding wars going if there is a no reserve auction. 
 Or you could consign them to B.A.M. as they have no selling fees right now. Or Glassworks , Heckler's , or American Auctions. But , they do charge fees to sell thru there auction houses. 
 Hey ,  Good luck on whatever you decide to do with them . Brian


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## WhiteLighting (Jan 18, 2005)

Quite abit of money if sold sepratley,in the american market even more than the english,just like my shear top inks........


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## cowseatmaize (Jan 18, 2005)

An American bottle from the same time period can bring a lot more than a European one. An English mallet may get 75-100 dollars but an American may get $200+ unsealed. That's here in the US though. Since youâ€™re in the UK I suspect yours are European. A sealed one is worth more than an unsealed one. There are lots of variables.
 I'd like to add a word of caution. It's true you can get a good price on ebay but...

 The world only sees ebay for a week. An auction house may run a catalog for a month or more and the buyers are in that market. They may be trustworthier then some of the unscrupulous buyers you will run into on ebay.

 You should have a good feedback rating before you start. Many will be turned off by a new seller. Sellers who regularly sell bottles often get better prices than someone who's in the business of comic books or no specialty at all.

 Do research and be sure to describe them accurately. Include nicks, chips, cracks and even scratches or you may lose what feedback you do have. Mention how you got them, it's part of their history. Give enough info but you can give too much also. On items as old as these some wear would be expected though.

 These people are on ebay often and do well. The link below is of a similar one to one I see in your picture.
 http://www.jeffnholantiquebottles.com/webpages/Item0099.html

 Put them up separately and ship the separately. Don't offer combined shipping and pack, pack, pack well.

 If you find a friend to sell them for you be careful. Write the add yourself to avoid trouble later. I'd guess friendships could be lost by having it done wrong by someone else.

 Get an idea by looking in the pre 1900 flask, bitters and especially black glass categories (Utility & Black Glass here Wine/Black Glass in the UK). I just looked at the UK site and I see the same bottles listed in the US and I think the rest of the world.
 There's no definitive method and no guarantees for the outcome. 

 I found this for the UK, it may help. http://www.onlinebbr.com/auctions/

 Good luck and nice bottles.


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## kumtow (Jan 18, 2005)

Tom, Cowseatmaize has a good point about eBay only being on for a week, however, there are some dedicated early glass collectors who check the Utility/blackglass section every day (including me).  Ebay.com (American eBay) would be the best of all the different eBays as these bottles do well there.  I have sold similar on Australia eBay and I was stunned at how poorly they did.  I am not sure how well they will go on the UK eBay.

 Cowseatmaize's comments on mallets is a little too general.  European early glass is generally slit into two groups, English and Continental.  A continental onion bottle is quite common and will realise $US 75-100.  An English onion on the other hand is much rarer and will realise anything up to about $US600 depending on shape and condition.  English mallets are more common than continental mallets however both types pull about the same price somewhere around $US200-300.  

 English seals are very sought after, yours at the front looks English, late 1700s early 1800s and will do well.   Pre 1800 continental seals are very rare (seal at rear) and should do very well and I won't even guess at how much that could sell for.

 May I suggest you have a look at a site called earlyglass.com.  This is a site run by Mark Nightingale (from Cornwall I think) who is an early glass expert.  The site has many early bottles for sale and you should find similar items to compare to yours.  Be aware though that eBay will NOT get the prices that Mark has on his bottles.  

 You need to be aware that most postal systems will not insure fragile items for breakage.   Most will only insure for loss so make sure you pack really well.

 Hope this helps you out.  
 Alan


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## kumtow (Jan 19, 2005)

But on the other hand.........to save you lots of hassle.........I'll give you 50 bucks for the lot.[][][][][&:]


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## Tomgor (Jan 20, 2005)

Alan, you should have said something sooner. I just accepted 49.50.


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## wootten (Jan 20, 2005)

please let us know what you found out about the bottles.....wendy usa


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## Tomgor (Jan 21, 2005)

Dear All

 thanks for all your help. this is the appraisal I have from an expert in the UK

 "I would expect to see these fetch individually in auction (from which commissions etc need to be deducted), from left to right:
 Large squat with remnants of gilding................................................approx Â£40-Â£50++
 Flat lipped strange squat if molded, of no interest, if freeblown version?........ Â£10?
 Very wide bodied squat at rear........................................................approx Â£40-Â£50+
 Waterwashed, generally lightly pitted mallet to front .........................approx Â£70+
                                                                     if of small (half) size?..approx Â£120+
 Sealed coat of arms continental long necked mallet at rear................approx Â£150-Â£250+
 Freeblown case bottle if blowpipe pontilled on base...........................approx Â£30
                                                                     if not pontilled............approx Â£10
 The sealed English cylinder............................................................approx Â£100-Â£160+
 The double magnum squat.............................................................approx Â£100+

 The continental seal is perhaps the most interesting and possible "sleeper" but at the same time the most difficult to price.


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## wootten (Jan 22, 2005)

wow-what an interesting thread to read!  It is so special to have others help out-I wish I had a bottle worth $$$$- wendy


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## kumtow (Jan 23, 2005)

Tomgor,
 You are joking with your appraisal aren't you.  That appraisal is seriously UNDER valued.  And I mean seriously.  You'll get a hell of a lot more than that on eBay.  I am being deadly serious here.


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## kumtow (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi again Tomgor,
 Just noted you appraisal is in pounds and not dollars.  Now I feel like a right twit.  [&:]Whew, that reads a little better now.  Value of the sealed Eng cylinder depends a lot on what is written on the seal and provenence of the bottle.  Some seals are quite common and your bottle looks very late 1700 early 1800s.  I would be surprised if you didn't get a lot more for the continental seal.  Continental seals are as rare as hens teeth.  I also think you mallet in the front is under valued.  If it has no chips or cracks and the string rim is complete it should be worth a lot more.  I'll give you 70 pounds for it right now.  In fact, if I had a better cash flow I'd give you what the total appraisal is for the lot.
 Did you look at Mark Nightingales site "earlyglass.com"


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## Tomgor (Jan 24, 2005)

Dear Alan

 Thanks for your positive posts. Mark Nightingale gave me those estimates and he did say that the continental seal was a difficult one to value. I'm going to give him some moire information and he will make an offer for the collection.

 PS While I'm going into this in greater detail I'm starting to get rather fond of the bottles and why my grandfather loved them. Actually he had about as many again and my cousin had the others. He also had a lot of very large earthenware bottles with brewers names either embossed or printed. He was collecting these things in the 60's and I don't think there was any value to them at the time but he had them very prominently displayed among furniture and other things of much greater value. He really loved them.

 Thanks again.

 Tom


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## kumtow (Jan 24, 2005)

Tom, 
 Mate, these bottles are mostly pre 1800 and difficult to get.   Some are certainly not as valuable as others but all are sort after by collectors.  Most tips that collectors dig in the UK are post 1870 so your bottles don't become available very often.  Mark seems to be a nice bloke and he has a wealth of knowledge about this type of glass.  You must bear in mind that he is a dealer and needs to get these bottles at the best price for him to be able to resell them later on (sorry Mark if you are reading this, but Tom should be aware).  I personally think eBay will get you more.   
 I am slowly building a collection of these bottles and they do grow on you.  Your grandfather obviously loved them and cared for them.  If you sell them you'll never get them back again as these older bottles are truely one ofs.  A collector once told me that collectors like us pay good money, not to own bottles as possessions, but for the privilage of looking after them for the next generation.  This is what your grandfather did.  Think about keeping them and adding to the group and joining the rest of us on this forum of nutcases addicted to fondling old bottles.


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## S.C. Warner (Jan 24, 2005)

> Think about keeping them and adding to the group and joining the rest of us on this forum of nutcases addicted to fondling old bottles.


 
 Amen!

 sc.


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## bigkitty53 (Jan 25, 2005)

> Hi Tom,
> To echo Lobeycat,a VERY handsome collection indeed!   Are you sure wish to sell this lot?Sentimental reasons aside,there are some excellant bottles in that collection,(and they are not anything you will likely ever replicate again!  ) the sort of bottles that will appreciate in value as long as you hang on to them.


 
 O.K.,Sometimes I repeat myself...[][] If you don't need the money Tomgor,HANG ON TO THEM!!!You are not likely build a like collection again yourself (Unless you $$$$$) and as Kumtow observes,we are caretakers for another generation-Do you have young family members?Any possibility they may develop a love of old glass??Any possibility YOU might develop a love of old glass?[][]

 KAT


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## Tomgor (Jan 26, 2005)

Dear Kat

 I appreciate your thoughts. At the moment aside from the release of 'Scooby Doo and the  Black Glass Bottle Mystery' or the MTV Guide to Early English Sealed Onions, it is highly unlikely that my children are going to develop an interest! But I have decided that unless I can get good prices then I'll stick with them. In terms of decorative value they are quite hard to beat. I've also got some old corkscrews with brushes that came with them and they look good together.


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## kumtow (Jan 26, 2005)

[][][] Mate, fondle them, check out the potstones and the bubbles, admire the pontilled bases, gaze lovingly at the crude lips and the lopsidedness.  Think about the sweat blood and tears of the people who made them (some nearly 300 years ago).  The 7 or 8 year old helped the blower make his bottle in the intense heat of the glass house.  Do all these things and you will be sucked in to the hobby just like the rest of us wierdos and nutters.[][][]


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## Tomgor (Feb 1, 2005)

Dear All

 Thanks for all your advice, help and enthusiasm. I have decided to keep all the bottles except for one that I've put on ebay. It is different to the others and so doesn't sit so well with the others as it's paler glass. The link as some of you have requested is http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6151132657 
 Please let me know if I've described it properly. I've not set any reserve as I assume the market will take care of that.

 Thanks again.

 Tom


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## Tomgor (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks for your advice everyone. I suppose that ebay was the right medium to sell the bottle. I had so many questions and general interest in the auction. Am now going to polish up the ones I'm keeping!


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## kumtow (Feb 13, 2005)

Well done Tom.


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