# Unidentified bottle?



## gdog68 (Oct 18, 2022)

Bought this bottle for a dollar at an antique store. Cork top, no visible seam. Blobs of glass overflowing on the cork top. Uneven lopsided stem and top to this bottle with a floral abrasive like etching. Don't know the age range of this bottle seams to look old with the the shoddy way it was made. Any ideas of the age range or what this could be?


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## CanadianBottles (Oct 18, 2022)

Nice find!  We get a lot of liquor bottles like this in Canada that were imported from the UK, generally they date to around the turn of the 20th century, give or take a couple decades.  The etching is interesting, it could be someone's recent craft project but I think I've seen similar etching before.  I can't remember the details though.  Etching like that was sometimes used as a cheaper alternative to embossing, but usually it would be the company's name rather than decoration like yours has.


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## gdog68 (Oct 18, 2022)

Thank you for the reply. The etching is quiet interesting. I believe this bottle was hand blown without a mold because it has no seems. It could be someone's craft. Let me know if you ever find any bottles with a similar floral etching.


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## willong (Oct 19, 2022)

gdog68 said:


> Thank you for the reply. The etching is quiet interesting. I believe this bottle was hand blown without a mold because it has no seems. It could be someone's craft. Let me know if you ever find any bottles with a similar floral etching.


Nice bottle, but not free-blown. Commonly called a turn-mold bottle, the glass was rotated in the mold while still plastic. Rotating the bottle, facilitated by coating the mold interior with a special paste prior to introducing the glass, erased the mold seam marks and produced a high gloss finish. Some examples exhibit annular striations over portions of, or entire surface of the bottle cylinder, though yours appears more like the intended, over-all, glossy finish. Look at the base and you'll see more evidence of the turning: it's those concentric rings that look faintly like the grooves of a phonograph record (if your old enough to relate to that reference ).

I have a similar etched example that I dug over fifty years ago. The original etching was typically done with acid by the bottle manufacturers as an additional embellishment. Whether the glossy finish and etching actually signified premium products (liquors and wines), or merely purported such, I can't say.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that acid etching was quite common on seltzer bottles. Google the term "etched seltzer bottle" and then click on "images" for many examples.

I suspect that the reason etching was particularly common on seltzer bottles during 19th Century was it facilitated a cost effective means of producing low-number production runs of "branded" containers--dispensers actually--intended for multiple refills and reuse. A bar, hotel or restaurant that wanted a couple custom-labeled seltzer bottles, or even a few dozen of them, could hardly justify custom mold fabrication cost; but could afford etched embellishment. Seems to me that the etched branding, while not nearly as expensive as a custom mold, would be much preferred to paper labeling on a product subjected to the handling, washing and repeated reuse that a seltzer bottle would see over its service life.

As I understand the process, acid etching was done by coating the glass with a wax resist through which an artist scratched the intended design. Hydrofluoric acid applied to the surface then dissolved some of the exposed glass surface, producing the matte finish, but did not penetrate the wax-covered portions.

Having matted glass via sandblasting, I'm curious if that technology was ever used historically to etch glass in a manner similar to spray-painting a stencil design. If anyone has read accounts of glass etching by sandblasting in the 19th century, I'd be interested in links or references to literature.

WL


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## CanadianBottles (Oct 19, 2022)

willong said:


> Nice bottle, but not free-blown. Commonly called a turn-mold bottle, the glass was rotated in the mold while still plastic. Rotating the bottle, facilitated by coating the mold interior with a special paste prior to introducing the glass, erased the mold seam marks and produced a high gloss finish. Some examples exhibit annular striations over portions of, or entire surface of the bottle cylinder, though yours appears more like the intended, over-all, glossy finish. Look at the base and you'll see more evidence of the turning: it's those concentric rings that look faintly like the grooves of a phonograph record (if your old enough to relate to that reference ).
> 
> I have a similar etched example that I dug over fifty years ago. The original etching was typically done with acid by the bottle manufacturers as an additional embellishment. Whether the glossy finish and etching actually signified premium products (liquors and wines), or merely purported such, I can't say.
> 
> ...


I wonder if there might have been something to do with the manufacture of seltzer bottles that prevented them from being embossed, because as far as I know, out of the hundreds of seltzer bottlers used in Canada, none of them were ever embossed.  Large bottlers would often have huge inventories of seltzer bottles, sometimes in ornate shapes and very unusual, expensive colours, but they would always be acid-etched.  There are embossed seltzers from other countries, but I wonder if these might post-date the seltzer bottle era here which ended in the 40s or so.  Have you ever come across any embossed seltzers in the US?  I found photos of a couple, but I'm not sure how recent they are.  I know seltzer bottle use continued for much longer in the US than it did here (I think there's still one remaining company in New York using them, but I don't think anyone has had new bottles made for a while).


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## willong (Oct 19, 2022)

CanadianBottles said:


> I wonder if there might have been something to do with the manufacture of seltzer bottles that prevented them from being embossed, because as far as I know, out of the hundreds of seltzer bottlers used in Canada, none of them were ever embossed.  Large bottlers would often have huge inventories of seltzer bottles, sometimes in ornate shapes and very unusual, expensive colours, but they would always be acid-etched.  There are embossed seltzers from other countries, but I wonder if these might post-date the seltzer bottle era here which ended in the 40s or so.  Have you ever come across any embossed seltzers in the US?  I found photos of a couple, but I'm not sure how recent they are.  I know seltzer bottle use continued for much longer in the US than it did here (I think there's still one remaining company in New York using them, but I don't think anyone has had new bottles made for a while).


I dug mostly remote or rural dumps and I can't recall ever digging even shards of seltzer bottles in such settings; so no, I never personally encountered embossed seltzer bottles. I have always admired the colors and etched embellishments exhibited by examples I've seen in books. Knowing a little about mold making and acid etching, I simply hypothesized a reason for the relative prevalence of the latter type of embellishment on seltzer bottles--my hypothesis might not be valid.

I wonder how large an order for embossed bottles would have to have been in order to amortize the cost of having a custom mold manufactured? At some point, economy of scale should bring the unit cost of embossed bottles below that of more tediously etched ones--it just strikes me that seltzer water would not have been such a volume business in most markets.

Were the embossed examples you mentioned labeled for the water distributors' businesses?


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## Len (Oct 19, 2022)

I believe I have one of these bots as well. If I had to render a guess--wedding/party favor. Maybe "chapponya."  

Hey, Will, et al, I believe metal workers of the same time period, used a similar approach.-- The "lost wax process" when making the mold for statues, etc.


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## CanadianBottles (Oct 19, 2022)

willong said:


> I dug mostly remote or rural dumps and I can't recall ever digging even shards of seltzer bottles in such settings; so no, I never personally encountered embossed seltzer bottles. I have always admired the colors and etched embellishments exhibited by examples I've seen in books. Knowing a little about mold making and acid etching, I simply hypothesized a reason for the relative prevalence of the latter type of embellishment on seltzer bottles--my hypothesis might not be valid.
> 
> I wonder how large an order for embossed bottles would have to have been in order to amortize the cost of having a custom mold manufactured? At some point, economy of scale should bring the unit cost of embossed bottles below that of more tediously etched ones--it just strikes me that seltzer water would not have been such a volume business in most markets.
> 
> Were the embossed examples you mentioned labeled for the water distributors' businesses?


Here's an embossed seltzer from the Pittsburgh Seltzer Co:



and another from the Rock Creek Ginger Beer Co. in Washington, DC 




These both seem to be from around the art deco era in the 30s-40s based on their appearances, so after the era of seltzer bottles I'm familiar with.  I wonder how many seltzer bottles a large bottler would have had around that time.  Some are common enough that I wouldn't be surprised if they were ordering a thousand or so bottles at a time, but maybe that still wouldn't be enough to justify a custom seltzer mold.  It could also be that I'm overestimating how many bottles those companies would have had, especially if those particular ones are common because an unusually large number of them were never thrown away, or something.

There were lots of embossed seltzer bottles used in Argentina, no idea what era these would be from though:


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## hemihampton (Oct 19, 2022)

I don't think I ever seen a embossed Seltzer before. LEON.


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## willong (Oct 20, 2022)

CanadianBottles said:


> Here's an embossed seltzer from the Pittsburgh Seltzer Co:
> View attachment 240865
> and another from the Rock Creek Ginger Beer Co. in Washington, DC
> View attachment 240866
> ...


Thanks for digging those photos up. Attractive bottles all.

I can't read the Argentine labeling, but the two American examples seem to confirm my speculation that embossed seltzer bottles would have been ordered by seltzer water distributors rather than hotels, saloons and such. I suppose if any hotels owned enough locations approaching anything like the numbers owned by today's chains, then one might find seltzer bottles embossed "The Ritz" or something similar; but I'm really not expecting that to be the case. For now, I'm clinging to my theory that it's all about the numbers required to justify the expense of a mold.

Hmm, if I had a nice home bar I would maybe have to violate my "dig or trade only" bottle acquisition policy. Break down and actually buy an antique seltzer bottle--one like the plain, dark green example in the foreground--then horrify purists, altering it by etching my monogram into its surface!


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## willong (Oct 20, 2022)

Len said:


> I believe I have one of these bots as well. If I had to render a guess--wedding/party favor. Maybe "chapponya."
> 
> Hey, Will, et al, I believe metal workers of the same time period, used a similar approach.-- The "lost wax process" when making the mold for statues, etc.


Don't know when I'll have the time to dig through my old bottle books to find it--the "text string search" function is really clunky on printed volumes--but I'm pretty sure that at least one of them made reference to such etching-embellished, turn-mold bottles being manufactured to market ostensibly premium wines and/or liquor. Champagne was a popular drink in the late 19th century from what I've read--I think even Mark Twain got a little snooty about it.

That ancient art of lost wax casting is another one of those crafts that I'll never live long enough to try my hand at; but I've always been intrigued by the process. Perfecting application of the lost wax process to investment casting firearms made Sturm, Ruger and Company rich. I still preferred machined-from-forgings Smith & Wesson revolvers and pistols, though I sold both brands (I owned and operated a firearms and archery tackle shop for ten years until the logging industry, which employed most of my customers on the Olympic Peninsula, crapped out in the 1980's as a result of Spotted Owl protections).


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## CanadianBottles (Oct 20, 2022)

willong said:


> Thanks for digging those photos up. Attractive bottles all.
> 
> I can't read the Argentine labeling, but the two American examples seem to confirm my speculation that embossed seltzer bottles would have been ordered by seltzer water distributors rather than hotels, saloons and such. I suppose if any hotels owned enough locations approaching anything like the numbers owned by today's chains, then one might find seltzer bottles embossed "The Ritz" or something similar; but I'm really not expecting that to be the case. For now, I'm clinging to my theory that it's all about the numbers required to justify the expense of a mold.
> 
> Hmm, if I had a nice home bar I would maybe have to violate my "dig or trade only" bottle acquisition policy. Break down and actually buy an antique seltzer bottle--one like the plain, dark green example in the foreground--then horrify purists, altering it by etching my monogram into its surface!


Right sorry, I had misunderstood  your question.  I don't remember ever seeing a marked seltzer from a hotel. Are those something you get in the US?  Strangely, the only example I know of a hotel bottle from North America is actually a transferware ginger beer bottle.  I have a hard time imagining that those could have been worth the cost to have made, but it's possible that wasn't the point.  The Chateau Laurier is one of the fanciest hotels in Canada.  It was (and maybe still is) the place where heads of state would stay when visiting Ottawa, and was sometimes home to the prime minister.  Having their own exclusive ginger beer might have been intended as a demonstration of how high class the establishment was, rather than something intended to be profitable in and of itself.


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## Len (Oct 21, 2022)

willong said:


> Don't know when I'll have the time to dig through my old bottle books to find it--the "text string search" function is really clunky on printed volumes--but I'm pretty sure that at least one of them made reference to such etching-embellished, turn-mold bottles being manufactured to market ostensibly premium wines and/or liquor. Champagne was a popular drink in the late 19th century from what I've read--I think even Mark Twain got a little snooty about it.
> 
> That ancient art of lost wax casting is another one of those crafts that I'll never live long enough to try my hand at; but I've always been intrigued by the process. Perfecting application of the lost wax process to investment casting firearms made Sturm, Ruger and Company rich. I still preferred machined-from-forgings Smith & Wesson revolvers and pistols, though I sold both brands (I owned and operated a firearms and archery tackle shop for ten years until the logging industry, which employed most of my customers on the Olympic Peninsula, crapped out in the 1980's as a result of Spotted Owl protections).


Will,  you are an interesting man: Very knowledgeable in many fields, former businessman, helpful, and polite enough to dig a trench grave for the bottles you shoot so that others don't step on the broken glass. Etc. Etc. ..Sorry to hear about your store. --How is the Spotted Owl doing today?..  I had a shop in Springfield in the '70s. Sometimes a couple of S &W brass big shots came in.  One gave me a gun oil bottle--one of the company's first-- about 7", clear corker, with their monogram embossment. Really not much to look at but now such items trigger memories of times + places that even Mark Twain, may only have ricocheted past by.   ..(Btw, Twain's house in Hartford, *Conn. *has paranormal groups go through. Reports of the smell of cigar smoke, and a evp of Twain saying his wife wasn't there, but "at their other home in Elmira,"[NY] among other things, have been heard. Happy Bottleween!)


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## willong (Oct 22, 2022)

CanadianBottles said:


> Right sorry, I had misunderstood your question. I don't remember ever seeing a marked seltzer from a hotel. Are those something you get in the US? Strangely, the only example I know of a hotel bottle from North America is actually a transferware ginger beer bottle. I have a hard time imagining that those could have been worth the cost to have made, but it's possible that wasn't the point. The Chateau Laurier is one of the fanciest hotels in Canada. It was (and maybe still is) the place where heads of state would stay when visiting Ottawa, and was sometimes home to the prime minister. Having their own exclusive ginger beer might have been intended as a demonstration of how high class the establishment was, rather than something intended to be profitable in and of itself.


*CanadianBottles*,

I have to admit to a old fart's brain fart. I haven't dug out my old bottle books to thumb through those pages, but I could find only one example of a hotel-marked seltzer bottle online. Assuming that there would be photos online if a substantial number of such existed, I can only conclude that my memory failed me. I might have formed that opinion by observing photos of seltzer bottles marked with a wide variety of relatively small town locations without paying attention to the additional etched information conveying such details as "bottling works" or some variant of distributing, etc.

*Some, like the Canadian and British bottles (below) currently on eBay, only displayed a company name and location without mentioning bottling, sodas, distributing or the like.


* 



*Others featured product or company names that included "spring," "springs" or "spring water."*





So, I'll make a weak excuse that my mental association of springs and spring water with resorts (two historical examples, one of which still operates but no longer sells bottled water like they did in the late 19th century, are within 30 miles of my location*) might have skewed my memory in the direction resort hotels, bars and etc.

*:  https://www.historylink.org/File/7591

Unfortunately, that's the best excuse I can muster. At least I copped (sorta) to being mistaken about etched seltzer bottles marked with hospitality establishment names. Rest assured that I'll check back in with an edit should I stumble upon examples among the pages of my old bottle books.

*It's no redemption, but I did locate one "Hotel" marked seltzer bottle online, though it is not an etched example:*


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## willong (Oct 22, 2022)

Len said:


> Will,  you are an interesting man: Very knowledgeable in many fields, former businessman, helpful, and polite enough to dig a trench grave for the bottles you shoot so that others don't step on the broken glass. Etc. Etc. ..Sorry to hear about your store. --How is the Spotted Owl doing today?..  I had a shop in Springfield in the '70s. Sometimes a couple of S &W brass big shots came in.  One gave me a gun oil bottle--one of the company's first-- about 7", clear corker, with their monogram embossment. Really not much to look at but now such items trigger memories of times + places that even Mark Twain, may only have ricocheted past by.  ..(Btw, Twain's house in Hartford, *Conn. *has paranormal groups go through. Reports of the smell of cigar smoke, and a evp of Twain saying his wife wasn't there, but "at their other home in Elmira,"[NY] among other things, have been heard. Happy Bottleween!)


Thanks Len,

I hadn't updated myself on status of Spotted owl, recently.

So, I just looked online a moment ago at: https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/15/northern-spotted-owl-endangered-species-act/ 

A 2020 article there mentions "continued decline" in the following statement:

_*The agency said the species’ continued decline warrants a reclassification from “threatened” to “endangered’' but it elected against taking that step because it considers other listed species to be higher priorities. According to the service, the decision was based on a scientific report that was peer-reviewed by academic and industry experts. The service said a status change would not result in any additional regulatory restrictions under the Endangered Species Act — nor would it impact the actions taken to conserve the species.*_

After logging moratoriums on Olympic Peninsula federal lands were precipitated by the owl's plight, the Marbled Murrelet was also listed as threatened under the federal Endangered Species Act. During their nesting season, the murrelets also use old growth forests.

I didn't broadcast my feelings to all my customers, but the ones I considered friends knew that I harbored no resentment over the closures as long as human entry into the forests was allowed for recreational purposes. Frankly, I only wished greater, broader stretches of old growth forests had been preserved by protection, preferably Wilderness Area status, long before either bird's existence was threatened. I did have selfish reasons for feeling that way.

I was still in my thirties at the time, and my favorite method of hunting Roosevelt elk was to track and stalk the animals in old growth. Unfortunately, by the time I discovered that joyous challenge, the old growth forests outside of Olympic National Park (closed to hunting) were reduced to small strips and blocks checker-boarded by clearcuts and "reprod doghair" (densely planted, young conifer reproduction plots consisting primarily of Douglas fir). The hunting was still fun; but it could be exceedingly frustrating to close within bow-shot distance given the tendency of trailed elk to cross roads and clearcuts where other hunters could spot them, or the elk habit of fleeing into the refuge of the park as soon as they sensed any hunting pressure.

Was that a firearms shop that you had in the 1970's? That was a nice gift from the S&W guys. I just viewed some online and I like that monogram look. I have a either a Hoppe's or Marble's nitro solvent bottle that I dug. I am pretty sure that I also dug another gun care product, gun oil I believe, though I can't recall what brand. Tooled lip as I recall, both bottles are pretty pedestrian, but suit my interests well.

When I accompanied my parents to visit my mom's side of the family in Germany in 1964, we did a little driving tour of Europe. Many sights and experiences have stuck with me. One of the most prominent memories is a tour of the Krieghoff factory in Ulm conducted by Herr Krieghoff himself! I was pretty interested in art at the time, as well as firearms and hunting, and the highlight of the tour for me was watching the engravers working under magnifying lenses at their benches. The expression one was executing in the face of a Hirsch stag--the entire animal was probably less than 30mm in length--was phenomenal! I also recall that some of the engravers had lightning-stoppered bottles of beer sitting on their workbench. We also visited the Anschütz and Walther firms, but did not receive such royal reception as extended by Krieghoff. I wish that I had been wealthy enough at some point in my life to have purchased a fine Krieghoff double or drilling--I almost feel a little guilty for our working class family having received such hospitality.


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## CanadianBottles (Oct 23, 2022)

willong said:


> *CanadianBottles*,
> 
> I have to admit to a old fart's brain fart. I haven't dug out my old bottle books to thumb through those pages, but I could find only one example of a hotel-marked seltzer bottle online. Assuming that there would be photos online if a substantial number of such existed, I can only conclude that my memory failed me. I might have formed that opinion by observing photos of seltzer bottles marked with a wide variety of relatively small town locations without paying attention to the additional etched information conveying such details as "bottling works" or some variant of distributing, etc.
> 
> ...


No worries about that at all, there probably are a decent number out there from springs which also had associated resorts/hotels.  I quite like the graphics on that Hull Hotels seltzer, it's too bad we don't get more ACL seltzers here (I'm not sure we have any - maybe a couple from Toronto).


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## Len (Oct 23, 2022)

willong said:


> Thanks Len,
> 
> I hadn't updated myself on status of Spotted owl, recently.
> 
> ...



Hi Will,

As a former educator, I can tell you have benefitted from many great people in your life and your experiences have helped to mold you into a solid citizen, made even wiser with gentle aging. In short, a smart, man's man with a great set of values. Guys like you are getting rare, my friend... To answer your question, no, not a gun shop. It was a store in the Eastfield Mall. It was across the CT River at Springfield's eastern border. (The national HQ of Friendly's Ice Cream was next door. They had a retail operation which I often took advantage of.)  Anyways, I've long considered myself lucky to have lived in "The Silicon Valley Of The 1800s." The area from New Haven to Springfield which is steeped in American manufacturing, especially gun history. From Eli Whitney's factory (now a museum) Remington, Marlin, etc. in greater New Haven, I got to Colt's factory in Hartford before it obtained federal status and speaking of feds, the Armory in Springfield is quite a place if ever you're on this side of the USA. --I go back to Springfield once a year, hopefully, to take in an AHL hockey game, visit old friends, and stomping grounds which hasn't changed too much. --A year ago there was a decent sized lake that was drained near Springfield College. Of course I went and picked up a couple bots. Most good ones were already gone. Still it was somewhat interesting to see what humans threw into that body of water thinking that those items would never again see the light of day...  Well, I guess the waters of life do go full circle and some of the best roads in life are indeed, the old paths. Stay Well. --CT Len


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