# RC Cola!



## iggyworf

Got this debossed RC bottle today. I know there was major discussion last yr about the earliest RC cola bottle. I skimmed thru all the old threads to refresh the memory. Mine is 12 oz. With LGW and the # 1 below it on the bottom. If I recall only LGW 2 3 4 5 6 were talked about. Not sure if that # is the year as in 1931 ect. I don't know if this bottle will shed any light on the subject or not. But wanted to post it none the less. It is not in great shape. Lots of scratches. Doesn't appear to be any 'ghost acl' on it.


----------



## Canadacan

Very Cool indeed!...so I would assume it had a paper label...anyone ever seen an RC paper label?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Here are the links to both of the original threads. They are unlocked and can be posted to. I'm not sure about a number 1 being found but it should be easy to determine by scrolling through the various pages. I believe the 2 through 6 numbers were discussed in Morb's thread ...  
dbv1919 ~ Started in May of 2014

https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Oldest-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-Bottle-m650674.aspx


morbious_fod ~ Started in October of 2014

https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Earliest-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-redux-m663404.aspx


----------



## iggyworf

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> I received another communication from the eBay seller of my clear RC bottle and
> they informed me that they dug several of the same type of bottles except that
> where mine has a 2 the others have 3, 4, 5, and a 6. Normally I'd say single
> digit numbers like that are mold numbers, but the odds of finding sequential
> mold numbers in a single dump seem astronomical to me, suggesting that the
> numbers might very well be codes for 1932,1933,1934,1935, and 1936. ???(Please note the question marks) []       This is from dvb1919's thread. Do we know how to date these LGW bottles?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Based on everything I recall about dating Laurens Glass Works bottles, I'm confident the numbers 1 through 6 are mold numbers and not dates. You can reread the other threads and see what you can find, but I'm pretty sure the results will be the same. Plus, you will also discover the earliest date found for Royal Crown *Cola *is 1934. There was an earlier Royal Crown Ginger Ale, but its the Cola that applies here. This link will take you to a site where the LGW (Laurens Glass Works) mark is listed alphabetically http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks-3/


----------



## iggyworf

Bob, Thanx. I have checked that site often and looked at it for this bottle. Without any other numbers on the bottle I guess it will be hard to determine the year. Thought it might mean '1931' but maybe not. I reread thru the threads pretty good. Lots of great info on RC cola ect!


----------



## M.C.Glass

I have one like yours Iggy, but mine is a #6. Also scratchy but with clear glass, yours looks aqua.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

To expound on the numbers 1 through 6 ... Its possible that Laurens Glass Works was conducting an *experiment *similar to what the Root Glass Company did prior to 1909 when large single-digit numbers were embossed on the base of early Coca Cola bottles. But with Laurens the experiment involved RC bottles around 1935-1936. With Root it is thought the single-digit numbers involved various formulations of molten glass to see which formula held up the best on the finished bottles.                                                              In other words ... With Laurens Glass and the numbers 1 through 6, its possible that each number represents a different glass formula. In a sense they are mold numbers, except that all bottles with a number 1 were of one experimental glass formula as were the numbers 2 through 6 of various other formulas. And then after a predetermined period of time they were able to track which bottles held up the best. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the numbers 1 through 6 only appear on the debossed pyramid bottles. If this is correct, then it could help support the experimental theory in that one of the test they conducted was to see how well the thinner, debossed area of glass held up. Which appears not to have passed the test because they eventually discontinued the debossed pyramid bottles and started embossing them instead. The test also appears to have involved both aqua as well as clear glass bottles, which likely had something to do with the different glass formulas I mentioned. One thing is certain! Laurens used date codes prior to the debossed pyramid bottles and used them on the later embossed pyramid bottles as well. So in my opinion there is no reason to think that Laurens would stop using date codes and then start using them again were it not because of some type of experiment.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. There would have been no need to date code the 1 through 6 bottles because they already knew those particular (experimental) bottles were from a specific year.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the opening statement and accompanying picture by member dbv1919/Brad from the original thread started in May of 2014 ... "Hey, just a question, has anyone ever saw an RC bottle ACL older than a 1936? From the left 1936, 1937, 1937 debossed and 1938 and 1938 embossed. Thanks, Brad"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm attempting to narrow down what year(s) the debossed pyramids were used. The following is also by dbv1919/Brad and is a copy/pasted portion of his statement from Page 2 - Post #24 of the May 2014 thread ... "judo that's a 1937, Iblackvelvet I think bottlingco is dead on the money. Just from what I have observed the 36's and 37's have the really large RC in the acl and debossed necks with full or partial pyramid and star. The 38's have a smaller RC in the acl and embossed partial pyramid neck."


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If I'm not mistaken (and will do some double-checking to be sure) I believe the 1 through 6 bottles ... 1.  All have the debossed pyramids2.  All are non acls* *I can't recall - some might be acls or so called "ghost" acls


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Since this is your thread, I thought you might be interested in helping me out by going through both of the original threads and taking notes on every one of the bottles that have the numbers 1 through 6 embossed on the base. We need to determine ...                                         1. If they are debossed or embossed?                                        2. If they are acls or non-acls?                                        3. Anything else that might apply to them.  We'll compare notes later and see what each of us come up with. Here are the links again ... dbv1919 ~ Started in May of 2014
https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Oldest-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-Bottle-m650674.aspx


morbious_fod ~ Started in October of 2014
https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Earliest-ACL-Royal-Crown-Cola-redux-m663404.aspx Thanks Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. iggy 4.  If they are clear or aqua? Please note which numbers apply to which bottles. For example ... Bottle with a #4 = Clear Glass / Debossed Pyramid / Non Acl


----------



## iggyworf

OK had some work today but I just went thru all the threads again . Morb's thread discusses only Glenshaw glass mark's. It's in dvb1919's thread where LGW(Laurens Glass Works) are talked about. This is what I've found so far. Hope I got this right[]lol          LGW             Color          ACL          Company          Ounce               Pyramid          DE or EM
#1(my bottle)    aqua              no                 Nehi                   12                  point                      DE
#2(Bob's)         clear               no                Nehi                   12                   point                      DE
#3                      ?                  ?                  ?                       ?                        ?                         ?
#4                      ?                  ?                  ?                       ?                        ?                         ?            
#5                      clear            yes              Nehi                      ?                    point                    DE
#6(Brad)             clear            yes               Nehi                   12                    point                    DEDE = debossed  EM = embossed


----------



## iggyworf

Here are some similar ones on ebay now. All have flat top pyramids.http://www.ebay.com/itm/V...mp;hash=item27f8c0c1abLG 38 on bottom http://www.ebay.com/itm/2...mp;hash=item19fb9be9fcowens illinois http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-RC-Cola-Royal-Crown-Embossed-Soda-Bottle-Aqua-w-Star-1937-Nehi-/261770296845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf2b9be0d has this one has a 'ghost acl'


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks for the great chart. I found the same results as you did when I scrolled through the original thread. Some of the descriptions lacked specific details, which account for your use of the question marks, but in most if not all of those instances I think it is safe to assume there was a consistency. For example; I'd say its safe to assume all of the bottles are 12 ounce and that all of them have pointed, debossed pyramids. I also think it is safe to assume all of the bottles are marked Nehi. As for the ACL aspect, notice the lower numbers are not acls but the higher numbers are acls. Also notice that your bottle appears to be the only one that is aqua. Without examining dozens of similar bottles we may never be able to fill in all of the blanks with absolute certainty, but based on what we do know, which I call common denominators, I honestly believe it is safe to assume that all of the LGW 1 through 6 bottles  ... 1.  Are 12 ounce2.  Are marked Nehi3.  Have debossed, pointed pyramids Plus, it appears to me that ... 4.  For some reason the first (No. 1) bottle was aqua5.  All of the other bottles are clear6.  The lower number bottles are non acls and had paper labels7.  The higher number bottles are acls In conjunction with this, on Page 4, Post #80 of Brad's original thread there is a picture of and brief discussion about a Dr Pepper bottle marked with LGW and a solo number 5. But what is most interesting about the Dr Pepper bottle is that it's "clear glass" and "debossed." You can justly accuse me of jumping to conclusions if you wish, but at the moment I refuse to believe its a coincidence the LGW 5 Dr Pepper bottle and the LGW 1 through 6 RC bottles are all "debossed" if not for a specific reason.                                          Hence, I am currently of the opinion ... *The LGW 1 through 6 bottles were experimental prototypes involving the introduction of Royal Crown Cola's first 12 ounce bottles in 1935 to test not only the style of bottle but especially to test the strength of a bottle with a debossed trademark symbol on the shoulder. I'm also of the opinion the test bottles failed and that this is the reason why they switched to embossed bottles instead of the weaker debossed bottles.   *


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As for the dates ... *It appears to me the test period for the experimental bottles started in 1935 with paper labels and concluded in 1936 with painted, acl labels.*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy               Only with time and more research will we know for certain, but I'm thinking  ... *                                  Your aqua LGW 1 bottle is the rarest of the lot!*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Even though I truly believe the LGW 1 through 6 bottles were experimental prototypes, I can't help but wonder why they used multiple numbers and not just a single number? Part of the answer might involve some of the bottles having paper labels and some being acls, but there might be more to it such as the different molten glass formulas I touched on earlier. I plan to look into this and see if I can come up with anything.


----------



## iggyworf

Bob about how long did debossed style bottles last? Did the glass fail at the debosing lines you think? Because it was thinner? I have a Dr Pepper debossed also, but it has a different glass mark on it. It's from 1945. If I have a rare RC bottle, that's awesome. I paid 99 cents for it. + 8$ shipping off of ebay. I wish it was in better shape. I hope we can figure out what the LGW 1 thru 6 mean. I like your theory though.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy To the best of my recollection, the *debossed* RC only occurred on the *pointed* pyramid bottles. As I recall, all of the *flat-top* pyramids are *embossed*. As for the debossed portion being weak, we can only speculated about that at the moment, but simple logic suggest the thinner the glass the weaker it is. All things considered, I can only think of one reason why a soda manufacturer would want to deboss a bottle, and that reason is ... *To be able to apply a paper label over the top of the debossed area, and yet still be able to identify the bottle when the paper label fell off or was removed during various stages of handling such as washing, etc. * As evidenced by this example image from ... The Gazette And Daily  ~  York, Pennsylvania  ~  December 3, 1936 (Placing a paper label over embossing would have been difficult to say the least)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. iggy I'm thinking the only thing rarer than your debossed aqua bottle with a pointed pyramid is a debossed aqua bottle with a pointed pyramid that has the paper labels still intact - but I think you'll agree the odds of finding one of those is pretty slim!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy As for how long the debossed bottles lasted, its hard to say without doing a great deal more research and a lot of hands-on examination of those bottle types. My best guesstimate is, they were produced from 1935 to maybe 1937.  I'd also like to add that anything with a number 1 on it, such as comic books, etc; is always better than something with a number 2 or higher. I think you really lucked out by finding that bottle as I have been looking around and can't even find a picture of one, let alone one for sale. You did great! Congratulations.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Things keep popping into my head, which explains all of my PS's. Anyway, I'd like to emphasize that your bottle is aqua and not the later greenish color bottles they eventually settled on. Hence, the aqua color makes it even rarer in my opinion.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Aqua and Green side-by-side for comparison ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ...                               I'm currently of the opinion that iggyworf's Royal Crown Cola ...                                                             1.  Aqua                                                            2.  12 Ounce                                                            3.  Debossed                                                            4.  Pointed Pyramid                                                            5.  Nehi Bottling                                                            6.  LGW 1                                                             ... bottle is one of if not the first experimental prototype bottles ever produced by the company.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Nice bottle iggy. This is a great thread.


----------



## iggyworf

Thanx Bass. I know now too keep an eye out for a paper label on this type of bottle. But like Bob mentioned, that might be very hard to come by.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Another thing to bare in mind is that whatever took place at the Nehi Company when they decided to start bottling Royal Crown Cola and the type of bottle they intended to use was conceived in advance of actually placing an order with Laurens Glass Works for the new bottle. In other words, they had the option to create either a debossed bottle or an embossed bottle and their decision to go with a debossed bottle was deliberate and must have had a reason. With this in mind it occurred to me that around 1934-35 glass manufacturers were experimenting with and starting to produce the first painted label (acl) bottles. The earliest known and confirmed acl soda bottle was a brand called "Jumbo - A Super Cola" and the bottle was made by the Owens Illinois Company in 1934. I'm not certain when the first Laurens Glass Works acl soda bottle was produced, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was in 1935 or 1936. In fact, determining when LGW produced their first acl soda bottle could be the topic of an entirely new thread. But regardless of that, its possible when Nehi got together with LGW, that LGW told Nehi they were on the verge of perfecting their acl process and they should keep this in mind regarding their new Royal Crown Cola bottle. Its possible they agreed on a bottle style that would start out with a paper label that could also be used when LGW perfected their acl process, which I'm sure was on the drawing board at least as early as 1935. So what they came up with was a debossed RC in a triangle (or pyramid) that would easily accept a paper label but could still be used later when the acl process was introduced. Hence, a debossed RC/Pyramid with a relatively flat surface for the paper label.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question(s) of the day ... When did the Laurens Glass Works introduce acls and what is their earliest confirmed example?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

2nd Question ...                     Is it possible that Royal Crown Cola was Laurens Glass Works first acl? Remember, Royal Crown Cola was a Nehi product and at the time (1934-35) Nehi was a hugely successful brand that had been around for about ten years and had the money and distribution capabilities to skyrocket Royal Crown Cola to new heights, which we know they did in a relatively short period of time.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Even though we've been down this road before on the earlier threads, its worth another read.                                                            Scroll to ...                         Page 400 - Discussion starts about Royal Crown Cola ACLs       Page 401 - Confirms debossed flat-top pyramids / trapazoid's were used on ACLs                      Page 402 - Says first Royal Crown Cola ACL bottle was in 1937                                 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap10a.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And now back to ...                                                        *Exhibit No. 1*                          Upon which I am placing all of my chips and going "all in"


----------



## iggyworf

I tried searching out those questions Bob. But my limited search capabilities didn't lead me to the answers.  I found lots of good info on Laurens Glass Works. But nothing specific on the bottles in question.  I am starting to believe the RC cola was there 1st acl bottle. Just my thoughts though. I like the pic of the debossed bottle with paper label over it you found.  (To the best of my recollection, the *debossed* RC only occurred on the *pointed* pyramid bottles.) Don't these bottle's look debossed to you?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/2...mp;hash=item19fbdb122a and this one?http://www.ebay.com/itm/V...mp;hash=item27f8c0c1aband also this one?  http://www.ebay.com/itm/V...mp;hash=item3cf2b9be0dor do I need to get new reading glasses?


----------



## iggyworf

some of those links failed. Here they are again.http://www.ebay.com/itm/171677106603?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT http://www.ebay.com/itm/1...ame=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I also looked on eBay for RC bottles, but unless the seller actually knows the difference between a debossed bottle and an embossed bottle, and describes them accordingly, the pictures themselves can often be misleading. For example, the third link you posted looks like it might be of a debossed bottle, and yet the seller uses the word "embossed." But regardless of that, if you open the pdf file I posted a link to and scroll to page 401, you will see where Bill Lockhart uses the word "debossed" and shows an accompanying picture of a debossed trapezoid RC bottle that is also an acl. So its stuff like that from an expert we need to rely on for certain details. Because of Lockhart's knowledge about specifics, we now know that certain RC bottles, which are likely from 1937 or later, were indeed debossed and were acls as well. In fact, Lockhart indicates that debossed and embossed bottles coexisted at the same time, which adds a touch of confusion to things. I'd have to go back and open the file again to be sure, but I believe the debossed/trapazoid/acl bottle he referred to was made by the Owens Glass Company. If it was Owens Illinois as I believe it was, that still doesn't tell us who made the first RC acl. Was it Laurens Glass or Owens Illinois? The information we are looking for to explain Laurens Glass debossed bottles versus embossed bottles might not even exist. And if it does exist, its likely buried away somewhere in a company catalog or file which might never see the light of day. However, once in a while you get lucky and unearth something like the following letter ...               https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Laurens-Glass-Works-m454587.aspx Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, nor explain the debossing, but it at least gives us a glimpse of the inner working at Laurens Glass in 1931 and confirms they did in fact test their bottles for strength, and explains how they did it. Its stuff like this I consider priceless and wish there was more of it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize newspaper archives do not tell the whole story. And yet, even with that said, the following can't help but shed a little light on things ...                       The newspaper archive I subscribe to currently contains ...          95 Million individual pages from hundreds of different newspapers coast to coast            When I search "Royal Crown Cola" without a date it pulls up 74,671 matches                 When I search "Royal Crown Cola" in 1935 it pulls up zero matches              When I search "Royal Crown Cola" in 1936 it pulls up about 20 matches  Of the 20 1936 matches that show a picture of a "Royal Crown Cola" bottle, every one looks like this ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 1937 = About 50 matches1938 = About 300 matches


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...  *[font="times new roman,times"]                        1937[/font]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I forgot to mention the 1937 bottle is an ACL and has the RC/Triangle/Pyramid                              (But I do not know if it is debossed or embossed)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Side-by-side comparison ...                                                         1.  1936 Paper Label                                                        2.  1937 ACL


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And for those who might have forgotten, this is dbv1919/Brad's bottle from the original thread.                                                                    Notice ...                                          1.  It's an ACL                                         2.  It has the debossed RC Triangle/Pyramid                                         3.  It's marked on the base with LGW 5                                                                                                                               (If you weren't confused before this oughta do it!)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Questions of the day ... 1.  Did the non-acl 1 through 6 LGW bottles, which were designed for paper labels, get recycled and have painted labels applied to them? 2.  How do we explain Brad's LGW 5 acl?


----------



## dbv1919

Hey Sodapopbob it is kind of hard to tell but it is in fact a six not five. That is why on the original thread I thought it was a 1936. Good luck hope you find out more than I ever did. I have yet to see a 1936 Owens Illinois bottle. LGW numbers 1-6 you got me.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad Sorry bout that / typo / easy fix / I meant ... Brad's LGW *6* I'll be back with more shortly!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'll do a follow up on this later. In the meantime I invite everyone to ponder the questions ... *1.  Why is it that every 1936 newspaper ad shows images of paper label bottles?* *2.  Why is it that every 1937 newspaper ad shows images of painted label bottles?* [ Attachments ] 1.  19362.  1937


----------



## iggyworf

From what I have read the ACL process seems very involved and probably more expensive than paper labels.  So that might not be a reason. Maybe ACL's took better pictures?


----------



## iggyworf

1.  Did the non-acl 1 through 6 LGW bottles, which were designed for paper labels, get recycled and have painted labels applied to them?(quote from SodaPopBob) That sounds like it could have been a possibility. And could Brad's bottle be one of them?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Based on your chart, which I agree with and found the same results, we see that about half of the LGW 1-6 bottles are non-acls and about half of them are acls. Bottles 3 and 4 have question marks and it is currently unknown whether they are acls or non-acls. For simplicity sake let's assume for the moment that bottle number 3 is a non acl and bottle number 4 is an acl, with the main point of emphasis being that the lower numbers are obviously non-acls and the higher numbers are acls. When I combine this information with everything I have been able to glean from all three threads, which I have compiled notes on, I have reason to believe ... 1.  The LGW 1-3 non-acl bottles were produced in 19362.  The LGW 4-6 acl bottles were produced in 19373.  The LGW 1-3 non-acl bottles were not recycled4.  The first Royal Crown Cola ACL was produced in 1937


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Based on everything I know about the acl process, the necessary machinery to apply paint to two roundish surfaces at the same time was not available until circa 1937. Prior to circa 1937 it was only possible to apply paint to one surface at a time such as on the main body of the bottle, which is relatively flatter than that of the shoulder or neck.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I thought you might enjoy this 1939 article about the Applied Color Label process. Especially notice the bottle on the left side of the accompanying picture ... http://www.bottlebooks.com/ACL%201937/bottles_applied_color_labels.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I can share this now because I did not win it. I have been watching it for about a week but didn't want to draw any attention to it. I have been looking for one of these for about a year and consider it one of the coolest labels ever made. The person who won it must have wanted it more than me because they snuck in at the last split-second and nabbed it. It sold for a whopping ... *                               $173.50* http://www.ebay.com/itm/351310771856?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&autorefresh=true                         Because it has Chero Cola Bottling Co. it dates before 1925


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ... I did win these yesterday and paid $15.00 for all three. Of course I haven't received them yet and still need to do some homework to try and date them. I'll do a follow up on them in about a week after they arrive ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Vintage-Royal-Crown-Ginger-Ale-Labels-/201284368456?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=WC%252BSKO%252BvZlPEShYun0s2RS%252BEbLs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy If you would like one of the labels I won, please PM your address to me and I'll send you one for free. Of course I plan to keep the best of the lot []  but will be sure to send you the second best.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm hoping my three labels date to around 1905 which is when the Union Bottling Works was established and started bottling Royal Crown Ginger Ale. I'll know more after I do some research, but I'm confident they are earlier than the camel/pyramid label. But even if they are earlier, the camel/pyramid label is more desirable simply because of the graphics. Here's a little history on ...                       Hatcher/Union Bottling/Chero Cola/Nehi/ Royal Crown Cola        http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/54/Royal-Crown-Company-Inc.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

dbv1919 / Brad If you would like the third best label, please PM your address to me and I'll send it to you free.                   (Actually, I think all three labels are in about the same condition)


----------



## dbv1919

Sodapopbob I must confess I also was one of the dummies trying for that label, too rich for my blood, lol.


----------



## iggyworf

That's funny how both of you were bidding on that label and didn't know it. Too bad one of you didn't win it. Yes that is a lot for a label. Thanx Bob for your generous offer. I messaged some of those rc cola bottle people on ebay to double check if there bottles were embossed or debossed. Two of them came back to thank me for pointing that out. They are debossed but one other stated they are embossed. I purchased one of them for a total of 10$, have not got it yet. I might bid on the other one. But might wait too see if price drops.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I found this but it didn't say if it was the real deal or if the label was added to the Chero Cola bottle later ...  ... but notice the angle of the label and the slant of the Chero Cola embossing are in line.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm starting to see tid-bits of information pointing to the possibility the Royal Crown Ginger Ale labels I bought could very well be those of the Union Bottling Works and date sometime between 1905 and 1912. One of the most intriguing clues is that the majority of items related to early Royal Crown Ginger Ale, such as the camel/pyramid labels, are marked Chero Cola. As we know, Chero Cola Bottling was established in 1912 and was changed to Nehi Bottling in 1925. It appears that by the time Chero Cola Bottling was established it was important to the company to mark all of their products accordingly, just as they did later with Nehi Bottling and Royal Crown Cola Bottling. But in the early-early days, it appears it was the brand recognition that was most important and not necessarily the company who produced it. In other words, if the three labels were Chero Cola or Nehi products, I'm fairly certain they would be marked as such.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Not to mention the three labels are of the old-school diamond shape that was so popular during the early part of the century.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Embossed - Straight-sided - Circa 1905-1911                                 Union Bottling Works ~ Columbus, Georgia     I can easily image the diamond-shape Royal Crown Ginger Ale label attached to this bottle


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way, Rich/iggyworf and Brad/dbv1919 both accepted my offer for one of the Royal Crown Ginger Ale labels and will be receiving them shortly after I do, which should be in about a week.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If you look close, you'll notice the label with the queen has "Union Bottling Works ~ Columbus, Georgia" on the bottom. But the three labels I purchased do not have a bottlers name on them. I can't say for certain, but it's hard to imagine they would put the bottler's name on their first label but not later one's. In other words, I'm thinking the labels I bought are earlier than the one that has the image of a queen. Unfortunately I do not know the dates for either of these labels other than I'm fairly certain the are from circa 1905 to circa 1911.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And what do they mean ...                                    "Warranted To Keep In Any Climate"                                  (That sounds pretty dang early to me!)


----------



## iggyworf

Cool stuff Bob. I briefly looked for Royal Crown Ginger Ale stuff, but couldn't find much. I guess I don't know where to look. Warm ginger ale I guess would taste alright. My mom would give us kids warm Vernors when we were sick.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Um, ah ...  I might have to take back my offer to send you guys the labels for free. The more I look into this the rarer they get. Other than the one on the Chero Cola bottle, I can't even find a picture of one, let alone any reference to where any have sold on eBay or elsewhere. I said earlier the camel label is more desirable because of the graphics, but I could be wrong about that. Once the word gets out about the one's I bought, and the fact they exist, things could change overnight. Of course I'm just kidding about not sending one to you and Brad for free because I would gladly have paid $15.00 for just one, which is all I need. Who knows, we might be the only collectors in the country who now own one. Maybe we can start a club and call it "The Earliest Royal Crown Label Club."  (Lol) []


----------



## iggyworf

Bob, I totally understand if you want to keep them all. There would be no hard feelings at all. But then I would be honored to be in the "Earliest Royal Crown Label Club". I will put it in a small frame to display. I have an old lithiated 7up label in a frame also.Thank You!!!!!


----------



## Bass Assassin

Those labels are awesome. Great buy Bob!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I'm totally kidding about not sending the labels. I love to share and this is my way of expressing it. I'm mainly trying to boost collector interest in the hope of increasing their value. I'm pretty sure they are hard to come by if not rare. Maybe someday they will be worth the $173.50 like the camel label sold for. Like I said earlier, I hope they can be connected to the Union Bottling Works. That would really make my day.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The plot thickens ...               Most of the Royal Crown histories provide us with the following timeline ...                               (All of which were located in Columbus, Georgia) 1901 - Cole-Hatcher-Hampton Grocery Company1903 - Hatcher Grocery Company (Their first product was Royal Crown Ginger Ale)1905 - Union Bottling Works1912 - Chero-Cola Company1925 - Nehi Bottling Company1959 - Royal Crown Cola Company Hence, its possible the three labels I purchased are connected to Hatcher Grocery Company and date to as early as *1903*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just when you think its safe to go back into the water there comes this bit of confusion ... As indicated in my last post, most of the timelines show the name "Hatcher Grocery Company" was changed to "Union Bottling Works" in 1905. And yet in this 1908 newspaper article we see where both of those companies are listed as bottlers of Hop Ale. So I can see this is going to require some more research to try and find an explanation why both of those companies appear to be listed as separate entities in 1908. From ... The Atlanta Constitution ~ Atlanta, Georgia ~ January 26, 1908


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... I posted this link earlier on Page 3 Post #56 of this thread and is what I have been primarily depending on for most of my information, including the timeline I came up with. But now I'm beginning to wonder how accurate it is. However, its not the only reference I'm using. There are numerous others that can be found by Googling "Royal Crown Cola History." Mainly what I'm trying to determine is, which bottler first produced Royal Crown Ginger Ale? Was it the Hatcher Grocery Company in 1903 or the Union Bottling Works in 1905? This source claims ... 
http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/54/Royal-Crown-Company-Inc.html



The first soft drink Hatcher created was named Royal Crown Ginger Ale, and its success opened the Hatchers' eyes to the opportunities available in the soft drink market. In 1905, father and son made their commitment to the soft drink market officially by reorganizing Hatcher Grocery Co. as Union Bottling Works and concentrating wholly on producing Royal Crown Ginger Ale.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The answer might be found on the labels themselves. There is "something" under the image of the crown that I can't make out. I'm not sure if it's a symbol, a letter, some small words, or just what it is. But we'll find out for certain in just a few days when the labels arrive. The seller sent me a follow up and said he was mailing them out today.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Unfortunately, there is no zoom feature on the eBay listing for the labels. It only has the click to enlarge option that doesn't help much. Here's the seller's description, but he doesn't say where he came up with the date ... "Some stains on edges as seen in scan. I think they are from about 1915. Found in New Orleans LA"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This link is to one of the most comprehensive Royal Crown histories I'm aware of. I've copy/pasted a couple of paragraphs from it, and if I'm reading it right, it leads me to believe Royal Crown Ginger Ale was first bottled by the Hatcher Grocery Company. The part that's still a little confusing and I'm not sure about the date, is where it says ...               "Royal Crown Ginger Ale Trademark: a pretty queen wearing a crown."                                                             ~ * ~                 (I invite others to read the document and see what you come up with)                                            *RC Cola Gets Start in Basement*                                Contributed By: Christine Thacker - June 20, 2007                                                          By Bill Winn                                                     Guest Columnist  

http://files.usgwarchives.net/ga/muscogee/photos/hatcher13430gph.txt

From the basement of the Hatcher Grocery Company, then located on Eleventh Street between Broadway and Front Avenue, came the first bona fide Columbus Soft drink creation to achieve status - Royal Crown Ginger Ale.

                                                             ~ * ~

Claud Hatcher decided the Union Bottling Works must produce a cola. So he got busy. The result was a carbonated beverage called Chero Cola. Chero Cola caught on fast. In a short time it was the spearhead beverage of The Union Bottling Works. Young Hatcher, who had proven to be a master at organizing promotion ever since he created his first Royal Crown Ginger Ale Trademark: a pretty queen wearing a crown, decided the firm should bear the name of this new cola beverage.  Chero Cola Company was organized in 1912. Chero Cola's first board of directors consisted of Claud A. Hatcher, Lucious A. Hatcher, William A. Anthony, C. G. Anthony. C. A. Sears, Dewitt Pickett, John Shields and Walter Davidson. Claud Hatcher was president; W. A. Anthony, treasurer and C. A. Sears, secretary.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Inconclusive Conclusion           I can only speak for myself, but I am currently of the opinion the three labels are from ...                            *The Hatcher Grocery Company  ~  Circa 1903-05*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reminder ...                          The label I posted earlier with the Queen on it definitely says ...                                      "Union Bottling Works ~ Columbus, Georgia"              ( I am of the opinion the three labels I purchased precede the label with the Queen )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Rich and Brad: I realize some of this is still speculative, but I just wanted to suggest in advance of receiving your labels to not to sell them for less than $50.00 each in the event someone offers to buy them from you. Of course you can do as you wish with them, but I now believe they are rare to extremely rare and warrant a special distinction among early Royal Crown Cola collectibles, which could very well be extremely hard to find in the future. In fact, even if I were offered $100.00 for the one I keep, I would respectfully decline that offer.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ... (For the time being)                                                      ~  Rarity Factor  ~  I realize Coca Cola collectibles are generally more desirable than Royal Crown collectibles, but even with that said, near-mint examples of original Coca Cola paper labels can easily sell for as much as $100 each. However, we need to be reminded that early Coca Cola paper labels were produced by the millions and were used for something like twenty years. By comparison, the Royal Crown Ginger Ale labels I purchased, if original as I believe they are and as early as 1903-05 which they might be, suggest they might have been produced and used for only a few short years, which in turn suggest they were produced in lower quantities and that surviving examples could very well be as rare as hen's teeth. Again, I acknowledge this is at best pure speculation on my part, but even with this said I can't help but wonder why I can find almost unlimited references to the existence and sale of early Coca Cola labels but not a single reference to the existence and sale of the Royal Crown Ginger Ale labels purchased? If anyone can find a reference to one ever being sold, please let me know.


----------



## iggyworf

Great work again Bob, I did find and read that article once that you put a link to in post #77. I will reread it later tonite again. I doubt I would ever sell that label you are giving me. Like you said though not for anything less than 50$. I love the fact that it is getting what we believe to be rarer and harder to find.


----------



## dbv1919

Bob thanks again for the label Royal Crown Bottles are my favorite of all. I wouldn't sell that label once I get it for any amount of money simply because it is a gift. Great research as always. Maybe some day we will have definite proof of the whole LGW 123456 thing.


----------



## Canadacan

Great reading Bob!...very fascinating information on the labels, and so nice of you to share the find of labels with fellow collectors. I personally believe rare RC stuff is wroth more than one might think, I know in the past it used to be just Coke stuff but over the last 25 years all the other brands have climbed in value too! Great stuff!..keep up the good work[]Ivan


----------



## iggyworf

Regardless of the timeline of the Hatcher Grocery Co. or Union Bottling Works,  those labels  are at least 1905 I believe.  If they were bottling the 'Royal Crown Ginger Ale' before they started Union Bottling Works, I wonder what bottles they were using for the drink. How long did they make the Ginger Ale? Did they stop when they changed it to Chero cola? 
Here is a link to a Chero Cola bottle with a label on it. But the lister does say he put the label on it. But that is how the bottles came with a label like that I think.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/K...mp;hash=item4190d3519a

Also like Brad stated, we still have the LGW 123456 mystery. I think my LGW 1 bottle has to be from 1934-35.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I own the paper label pictured below and have been able to date it to around 1932. I have also seen newspaper ads for Royal Crown Ginger Ale well into the 1940s but nothing from the 1950s.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Notice the paper label I posted is 12 ounce. The reason I mention this is because it measures 4 1/2 inches X 3 1/2 inches and is quite large. If applied to a typical 12 ounce bottle it almost wraps entirely around it and takes up most of the flat surface from the shoulder to the heel. I always thought this was a bit strange.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding the LGW 1-6 bottles;  I think the best clue thus far is that the lower numbers 1 and 2 are non-acl paper label bottles and the higher numbers 5 and 6 are acl painted label bottles. Of course this doesn't automatically mean the 1 and 2 non-acls were made in 1936 and the 5 and 6 acl bottles were made in 1937, but based on every shred of evidence I can find, I think it is a certainty the first Royal Crown Cola painted label bottle was made in 1937. In one of the Bill Lockhart articles it quotes a Michael Elling (who I believe is a longtime Royal Crown collector) as saying "Only the larger, more successful bottlers used the ACL bottles at that time." [1937-1940]  In other words, it appears that paper label and acl bottles were both being produced at the same time and for some reason certain bottlers preferred the paper labels over the acls, possibly because the acls cost more. I realize this doesn't fully explain the LGW 1-6 bottles, but it might be a clue to add to the list.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I think the one question more than any other I have about the LGW 1-6 bottles is, why didn't they just use a 1 for the non-acls and a 2 for the acls? Why number them 1 through 6? The answer might be found by a closer examination of the bottles. If anyone has a 1 and a 2 bottle, look them over closely for the minutest of differences. I'm not sure there is a difference, but there might be such as the weight, the thickness of glass, the embossing, etc; etc. If a difference can be found it might give us another clue to work with and possibly explain things. I recommend the same for the 5 and 6 acls. Are there any differences in them?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy As for a 1934-1935 bottle, according to historian Cecil Munsey, the amber bottle pictured below with a paper label was the first Royal Crown Cola bottle ever used during the test market period between 1934 and 1935.


----------



## iggyworf

Wow! Great find. I would have never expected an amber bottle. We need more info on that bottle, if possible.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Royal Crown paper labels, has anyone seen this one? I have been so busy researching the other labels I haven't even begun to research this one, yet.


----------



## Canadacan

I love those labels!...so what is Bounce?....citrus flavored?


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah! That's another cool label. Do you own that one?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I don't own the Bounce label and researching it has proven to be a little confusing. It obviously has Royal Crown on it but every reference for it seems to be connected to Nehi. As we know, Nehi was introduced around 1925. Additionally, the label is almost identical to the Royal Crown camel label that sold for $173.50 which has Chero Cola Bottling on it. And yet I can find no connection with the Bounce label and Chero Cola either. As we Know, Chero Cola Bottling was Changed to Nehi Bottling around 1925. But what I did find (see below) is from 1931 and describes Bounce as a "new" Nehi product at that time. So as you can see, dating the Royal Crown/Bounce/Camel label might be difficult to say the least. Aside from the dating confusion, the 1931 ad at least tells us that Bounce was an almond flavored cola, which sounds kinda yucky to me.    As a couple of side notes ... 1. Notice in the Bounce ad where they use the word "kick."2. In the 1960s Royal Crown introduced a brand called "Kick" with a mule on the label which    was a citrus drink intended to compete with Mountain Dew. It's possible Kick was a spin-off    from the 1931 Bounce ad that used the word "kick"3. Notice that Kick's slogan was "Just Ain't None Better"4. Notice in the 1919 Chero Cola ad the slogan "There's None So Good"5. It's possible that Kick's odd slogan was a spin-off of Chero Cola's unusual slogan  [Attachments] 1.  Bounce Ad ~ Shiner Gazette ~ Shiner, Texas ~ July 30, 19312.  Kick Soda Bottle3.  Chero Cola Ad ~ Manning, South Carolina ~ 1919


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I don't know the date for this Bounce bottle cap, but it was described as being from Columbus, Georgia.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I hoping the Royal Crown Ginger Ale labels arrive today - but it might not be until Monday ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy f you go back to Brad's original thread there is quite a bit of information about the amber Royal Crown Cola bottle. Look for the images similar to the one below and especially read the stuff about Grubb Bottling in Dotham, Alabama Speaking of the label on the amber bottle, we never did figure out what the small mark is on the pyramid - which I do not think is a nick in the paper. Notice ... 1.  The small mark on the pyramid that I placed a red arrow under2.  The Royal Crown Ginger Ale label has a 'similar' mark where I placed a green arrow, but I'm     not sure if it's the same mark as the one on the amber bottle


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I can't say for certain, but both marks look like the letter *W*


----------



## dbv1919

Bob sometime we need to delve into the WWII royal crown cola thing I have a 40 acl with good housekeeping the only actual wartime bottle I have has royal crown cola embossed on neck with no acl its a 43. wondering what went on. I'm also a lover of firearms and I know a lot of factories retooled for other things. For example Singer sewing machines retooled and made 1911 .45 cal pistols. I don't necessarily think anything like that but wondering about the odd 43 bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad I made a quick tour of Royal Crown Cola during WWII and the one word more than any other that kept popping up was the word ...                                                          *Rationing* But, as we know, it wasn't just Royal Crown that rationing pertained to, it was "everything." To be more specific, it was *sugar *rationing throughout the entire soft drink industry that took the heaviest toll on bottlers. As for the bottles themselves during WWII, they too were of a limited quantity like everything else, which is one of the reasons why there was such a huge demand by bottlers to have their empties returned. However, based on what I have been able to find, it appears the larger bottlers faired a lot better than did the smaller bottlers throughout the country. In other words, it appears that not all of the Royal Crown Bottles during the war were intended for paper labels and had embossed shoulders, but rather that only some of them did. It could be the bottle you describe was from a small bottler. I suspect it would require close examination of numerous bottles from numerous towns and states to really narrow down any type of plausible trend as to what was produced where and when.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding a timeline for Royal Crown Cola during WWI, the following are considered the most significant and which made the headlines coast to coast ... 1941 = Taste Test campaign conducted 1942 = Court decision related to Coca Cola allowing Royal Crown to use the word "Cola" 1943-44-45 = Major Newspaper/Magazine campaign using movie stars to sell war bonds and promote Royal Crown Cola nationwide


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Most if not all of the movie star ads between 1943 and 1945 show bottles with acl labels on the main body as well as on the shoulder.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Both of these ads are from *1943* and are somewhat self explanatory ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

These are especially cool. Place you cursor arrow over each ad to zoom in on the bottles. And/or double click on each ad for super enlargement ... 
1942

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Crown-Grudge-Fightin-Beverage/dp/B005KMTQ0S

1943

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Crown-Comedian-Serviceman-Military/dp/B005LJY84Y

1944

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Secret-Helped-Gehrig-Homers/dp/B00DZY7LZ0

1945

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Crown-Diana-Actress-Paramount/dp/B005O4YFMQ


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way, the three labels did not arrive today, so we'll have to sweat-it-out until Monday []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad This is the only bottle I have been able to find like the one you mentioned. It was described as being marked with ...                                                       *4 LGW 3*                                                     (For 1943) If your bottle is marked the same, then maybe it's just a Glenshaw Glass Works thing. If so, then maybe our focus should be with Glenshaw bottles only


----------



## dbv1919

Excellent info as always Bob. I was going to post a pic but there's no need, that is exactly the bottle and it is marked as  4 L G W 3 too.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

There's no doubt that rationing took it's toll on the soft drink industry during WWII, but there might be more to the story where the Laurens Glass Works is concerned. Notice in this 1943 newspaper article where it says ...                        "Eight warehouses and the *paint shop building *were destroyed"                                                  I acknowledge it also says ...                                "Production would be resumed within a few short days" But you gotta wonder exactly what type of production they were referring to, especially when you take into account where they say the paint shop was "*destroyed*"  From ... The Daily Times-News ~ Burlington, North Carolina ~ May 4, *1943*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

It should interest everyone to know the same bottle was not only produced in 1943, but in *1944 *as well ... 1.  Front2.  Heel with *4 LGW 4*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This bottle was discussed in the original thread, and even though the eBay listing no longer has a picture of the bottle, I saved a picture of it in my files which is the one shown below. The reason I'm sharing this again is to draw attention to the seller's description where he says the bottle is marked with *4 LGW 2 *for 1942, and to establish that Laurens Glass Works was producing ACLs in 1942 after WWII started. Of course, most of the rationing probably didn't start until later in the war, possibly in late 1942 or early 1943, but this will at least give us some type of timeline to work with. eBay Link ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/251552983401?_trksid=p2048036 [Attachment] Picture I saved from eBay listing ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

eBay seller's copy/pasted description for the 4 LGW 2 Royal Crown Cola bottle ... *How many of these survived? This listing is for an EXTREMELY RARE 1936 12 oz. Royal Crown RC Cola unopened soda bottle. The bottle features the iconic "Pyarmid" logo with "COPYRIGHT 1936 NEHI CORPORATION" and "CONTENTS 12 FLUID OUNCES." The back of the bottle has the words "BOTTLE STERILIZED BEFORE FILLING" and "CONTAINS CARBONATED WATER, SUGAR, AN ACIDULANT, COLA NUT EXTRACTIVES, NATURAL FLAVORS, CARAMEL COLOR." "PROPERTY OF NEHI BEVERAGE CO. INC LOUISVILLE, KY" The bottle has never been opened. The metal cap is very rusty and not in good shape.  The original contents are still in the bottle and have crystalized, but are still there. There is some liquid inside as well. It measures about 9 3/4" tall and the bottom is unmarked. The back of teh bottle near the base (raised in glass) has the following  "4 L G W 2" A nice and RARE bottle for a RC or soda collector. This came from my grandfather, who had it on display in his kitchen since my mom was a little girl. **Please email a**ny questions. The successful bidder shall pay $8.00 shipping to the lower 48 states. The successful bidder shall submit payment, including shipping, within five (5) days of close of auction.*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Now we need to find a *4 LGW 5 *(1945) Laurens Glass Works Royal Crown Cola bottle and see what it looks like. I haven't looked for one yet but intend to.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't found a LGW 1945 Royal Crown Cola bottle yet, but I did find this Rum's Dry acl that's marked on the heel with *4 LGW 5 *which at least tells us that Laurens Glass Works did in deed produce some acls in 1945. Also notice it's embossed with *Nehi RC Company* http://www.ebay.com/itm/rums-dry-ginger-ale-soda-bottle-1945-acl-LGW-propery-of-nehi-for-smart-people-/381135305389?nma=true&si=QrR1iqsuIVfOemElvqVqRX%252BtWw4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question of the day ... Why would Laurens Glass produce a 1945 ACL for a somewhat obscure brand like Rum's Dry but not for a major brand like Royal Crown Cola? (I'm betting they did)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Inconclusive conclusion regarding 1942 through 1945 ACL soda bottles ... You can look through your own collections, on eBay, or any other form of search you wish to do, and I guarantee you'll find more 1942 through 1945 acls than you can shake a stick at. There are just too many of them to believe that WWII rationing had a major effect on every glass maker and every bottler in the country. I have seen acls from this time period that were made by most of the major glass makers in the country, not to mention acls from small town bottlers I've never even heard of before. I'm not saying Laurens Glass Works didn't cut back on their production of acls between 1942 and 1945, but I am saying I strongly believe there is some other explanation for the 1943-1944 embossed shoulder Royal Crown Cola bottles currently under discussion.


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah, I thought so also. I have a Glenshaw glass from 1946. It has the 'R' code on the lip.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If Laurens Glass Works was in bad shape during WWII, then how do we explain ...                          1.  They spent $600,000 to expand the factory in 1945?                         2.  They manufactured 90 Million bottles the previous year? (1944)                                                                From ...                      The Index-Journal ~ Greenwood, South Carolina ~ November 29, 1945


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Another Question ... Is there a connection or is it merely a coincidence the Laurens paint shop was destroyed by fire on May 4, 1943 and the Royal Crown Cola bottles in question were produced at about the same time or possibly a little later?


----------



## dbv1919

Bob I looked around and found tons of ads and acl bottles that we during WWII maybe the fire limited some acl production. I have a '41 acl OI.


----------



## dbv1919

One more weird LGW thing. I was looking at some 1938 bottles and one is a LAURENS GLASS WORKS but the pattern on the bottom is different than the LGW 123456 and it is different than the  4 L G W 3 pattern also. I am 100 percent sure its a 1938 by the 38 acl and 38 neck embossing. Its identical to my other two Owens Illinois 1938 bottles. Go figure. I think we looked at it on the original post looks like L G W on top and I on bottom nothing on heel.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad I'm thinking it's a number *1 *and not an *I* I can't recall ever seeing the letter *I *embossed like that with the cross-part but I have seen a lot of the number *1 *with the cross-foot The letter *I *is usually embossed like a lower case *l  *(L)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize it's late in the game to be throwing in the towel, but the more I look into Laurens Glass Works the more confused I get. There are just too many inconsistencies in their dating and mold codes to make total sense of them. In case no one has noticed, Royal Crown Cola bottles are not the only bottles that have LGW and a single-digit number. I have seen similar marks on other brands as well, especially various Pepsi Cola bottles. Which means the LGW 1-6 marks are not exclusive to just Royal Crown Cola bottles. The only things I am fairly certain about regarding all Royal Crown Cola bottles, whether they were made by Laurens Glass, Owens-Illinois, or some other glass maker is ... 1.  The pointed-pyramid/triangle bottles precede the flat-top-pyramid/trapezoid bottles2.  Most but not all of the non-acls precede the acls3.  Their earliest 12 ounce non-acl bottle dates to circa 1935-19364.  Their earliest 12 ounce ACL bottle was produced in 1937                                  And now back to the 1943 bottle for a moment ... The bottle pictured below is from Honolulu, Hawaii and was made by Owens-Illinois in 1943. It is marked on the base with  20 <(I)> 3 and Duraglas. The 20 represents the Owens-Illinois plant in Oakland, California. Some might debate the date, but because it has Duraglas and a single-digit number, I am confident it dates to 1943. I realize it's not a Laurens Glass Works bottle, but it at least tells us there are Royal Crown Cola bottles from 1943 and made during WWII. I'm hoping the paper labels arrive today. If they do I will be sure to closely examine them and post some new pictures this afternoon or evening.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record regarding one of the Pepsi Cola bottles I mentioned ...                               ( I dare not even guess as to the date it was made ) 1.  Front2.  Shoulder Embossing3.  Base with LGW 2


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly (for the time being) ... I'm not sure this will help, but I think our best clue of all regarding the LGW 1-6 bottles is that the lower numbers are NON-ACLs and the higher numbers are ACLs. But exactly what this tells us I'm not sure, nor if it is even a bona fide clue.


----------



## iggyworf

Great work again Bob. Regarding that Pepsi bottle. I am pretty sure that style is from the 30's. Now whether or not the LGW 2 stands for 1932 I am not sure about.


----------



## iggyworf

Another thing, I received my other debossed Rc cola bottle on Sat. But my camera is on the fritz again so I can't post any pics. Although I don't think it will help in any of our mysteries here. It is clear with a ghost ACL. Debossed trapezoid with star on top. Bottom is marked LG 38. I think that is Liberty Glass and probably 1938. Still it's an early one and is pretty clean. 
Thanx for all the investigative work.


----------



## iggyworf

Maybe too add to the LGW dating confusion. Here are 2 pepsi bottles with LGW #'s and date codes.The first has 3LGW9 at the base. That should be for 1939. And LGW 5 on bottom.The 2nd has 4LGW0 at base. Would that be 1940? Apparantly no LGW on bottom. Fiddled with my camera and got it to work for the time being.


----------



## iggyworf

Here is a pepsi from ebay with a LGW 4. This also should be from the 30's.  I think this and the other ones I posted might of had paper labels. But I  can't confirm that. http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLUMBIA-SC-COBLE-PEPSI-COLA-BOTTLE-STRAIGHT-SIDE-/281485737237?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4189db7d15


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Good stuff - every little bit helps! I think the only think not considered yet is the *shape *of the bottles and a possible connection with the mystery numbers. For side-by-side comparison we have ... 1.  Your Royal Crown LGW 1 Bottle2.  The Pepsi Cola LGW 2 Bottle3.  My Royal Crown LGW 2 Bottle Question:  Are the shapes identical or just similar?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. In case you have never tried it, click on one of the three bottles above to enlarge it, and then move your cursor off to the side of the enlargement and wheel-scroll the page itself until the enlarged image lines up with the pictures of the Pepsi bottle from the book. That way you can do additional side-by-side comparisons.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's another shape comparison ...


----------



## dbv1919

Good work guys, I think the whole LGW thing will remain a mystery. Maybe one of us will stumble onto an older acl. Until then I think it's time to pee on the fire and call in the dogs. Best wishes,Brad.


----------



## dbv1919

? still confused ?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brad I agree. If the answers are ever found I expect they will come from company catalogs or something along those lines. By the way, the mailman just came but I haven't gone out to the box yet to see if the labels arrived. I'll let you know in a little while.


----------



## iggyworf

Yep, great work everybody. Now on to the next one![]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Rich/iggyworf and Brad/dbv1919* *The labels arrived today and I will be mailing yours out no later than Thursday. Please allow about a week for them to arrive. * *I have decided to start a new thread about them because I feel they warrant special attention. Plus, I want to do some extensive research and see if I can find out more about them and possibly when they were made. I plan to start the new thread today and will be sure to include a link to this one as well as links to the other two threads. * *The attached image is the label I will be keeping, which I scanned and is the best I can do and is a true representation as to what it actually looks like. I decided not to scan and post the labels I'm sending you so you will be surprised when they arrive. They are all in about the same general condition except that yours have some minor nicks. I will describe mine in detail on the new thread. * *Here's the one I'm keeping ...*


----------



## iggyworf

Excellent! Thanx Bob. I got a frame ready for it. But check out this add I found. Don't know if you have seen or found this one.[attachment=royal-1.jpg]


----------



## iggyworf

I think it might be from Morb's website. Yes it is. Good job Morb.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Morbious_fod posted that ad on his Redux thread, but I don't believe he ever mentioned a date. However, notice it says "Improved," which indicates there was an earlier version prior to whenever that one was produced. I'm still sorting through some notes and hope to have the new thread going shortly. The labels are definitely suitable for framing! Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Here's the link to the new thread about the early Royal Crown Ginger Ale paper label ...* *https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/EARLY-ROYAL-CROWN-GINGER-ALE-PAPER-LABEL-m672355.aspx#672355*


----------



## logueb

Bob,  I went out to[attachment=2-26-15 012.JPG]  the bottle barn and found these two RC Bottles. Not sure if these mean anything or not. One debossed one embossed


----------



## logueb

Debossed RC is clear and is marked LGW 1 on base[attachment=2-26-15 016.JPG] [attachment=2-26-15 013.JPG]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Typo / Error / Standing By


----------



## logueb

Embossed RC is aqua/greenish and is marked LGW 3 on base[attachment=2-26-15 015.JPG] [attachment=2-26-15 014.JPG]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

logueb Thanks for the information [&:] Now I'm more confused than ever! There just doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason or consistency in their marks. What I originally thought would be a simple process of elimination has turned into a rocket science project. As I said earlier, I think the only way we are going to make sense of things is for someone to get their hands on some old company catalogs or records and see what can be found their. Perhaps someday, someone will do just that.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of the debossed/embossed triangle/pyramid bottles, you will recall this ad I posted earlier showing a paper label applied to the shoulder atop the debossed/embossed area. As it turns out, they even produced tin signs showing the same thing. Because of the signs, which I have to believe were intended to be displayed and last for many years, it leads me to suspect they were not all that familiar with the acl process at the time or else had no immediate plans to change from paper labels to painted labels. If they planned to start producing acl bottles early on, then why produce tin signs to the contrary? [ Attachments ] 1.  Ad I posted earlier from The Evening Sun ~ Hanover, Pennsylvania ~ October 8, 1936. (Please be reminded that ads like this depicting paper labels only appear in 1936. The 1937 ads abruptly change to bottles with acl labels). 2.  Original photograph with one of the tin signs hanging on the wall of an old store. The photo is documented as being from 1938, but the sign could easily have been there considerably longer. 3.  One of the tin signs showing a paper label adhered over the triangle/pyramid.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the link where I found the picture of the tin sign. Click on the view large for a super-zoom examination ... http://merrillsauction.com/node/1361


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Error / Ignore


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Based on what I've been able to determine, I believe the tin signs date to 1936. As such, I consider them one of the earliest, and possibly rarest, Royal Crown Cola collectibles that would compliment any collection of Royal Crown Cola bottles. I suspect most sellers of the signs do not know the sign's history and that one might be had for an affordable price. But just how hard they are to find, I do not know, yet. By the way, watch out for reproductions!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on the results of a brief search, I'd say the tin sign in question is extremely hard to find. I contacted Merrill's Auctions to see if the one I posted a picture of is still available. I will post their reply when I hear back from them.


----------



## iggyworf

I found this pic possibly of that sign or a similar one.  It's hard to enlarge without losing quality. This was found on Etsy.https://www.etsy.com/listing/178062445/1940-old-stone-store-natchez-mississippi?ref=sc_1&plkey=45bd7ae30f845d10f9f75d8b968d9d232ed84751%3A178062445&ga_search_query=royal+crown+cola&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery


----------



## shannon red

I have recently come across a mini bottle collection that seems to contain an RC Cola bottle with a paper label.  I am having a hard time finding anything similar.  Can anyone tell me if RC actually made a bottle with a paper label.  It doesn't seem to have the Pyramid in the glass above the label like the others I have seen.  The closest I have come to finding a similar one seems  to be the 1924 bottle, but I'm not sure.  ANy help is appreciated.[attachment=FullSizeRender.jpg]


----------



## iggyworf

Shannon, Hello and welcome. I don't think any of us have come across a paper label of that style on a regular size bottle. I could be wrong though. It could just be for that kind of novelty style bottle. Might have been cheaper to do paper labels for them than the 'ACL' process.


----------



## carling

I'm guessing that is a sticker type label, and not a paper label on that mini bottle.


----------



## BlancoBros

Did all of the debossed Royal Crown bottles have a makers mark on the bottom? Mine just has a "3". Would mine be a 1937?


----------



## iggyworf

Not necessaryly. I would think each bottle maker put different markings on there bottles. You do have an earlier bottle. Because of the embossed trapezoid/star on the neck. 1930's.


----------



## canti128

SODAPOPBOB said:


> iggy Based on your chart, which I agree with and found the same results, we see that about half of the LGW 1-6 bottles are non-acls and about half of them are acls. Bottles 3 and 4 have question marks and it is currently unknown whether they are acls or non-acls. For simplicity sake let's assume for the moment that bottle number 3 is a non acl and bottle number 4 is an acl, with the main point of emphasis being that the lower numbers are obviously non-acls and the higher numbers are acls. When I combine this information with everything I have been able to glean from all three threads, which I have compiled notes on, I have reason to believe ...* 1.  The LGW 1-3 non-acl bottles were produced in 1936 2.  The LGW 4-6 acl bottles were produced in 1937 3.  The LGW 1-3 non-acl bottles were not recycled4.  The first Royal Crown Cola ACL was produced in 1937*



Hello everyone,
I'm here to _bump_ this old section of the topic since I *THINK* I found an anomaly to Sodapopbob's belief here. Recently I found a bottle on eBay for *$19.99*. I even made a topic about it and will make a shameless plug about it. Anyway, it appears to be a VERY MINT - *Clear/ Debaussed Pyramid/ Paper Label/ LGW 6 *(see photos for details). My previous assumption (before reading this topic) was that it was a 'salesman sample' due to its pristine condition (and lack of 'ghost' acl).


Also on every 1936 ad which was posted previously show the neck label *over* the debaussed pyramid as opposed to my neck label being *above* the debaussed pyramid. Since LGW was experimenting with the various compositions of the bottle, it makes sense that they'd also experiment with the paper label placement. Although my bottle is the *oddity since its a 6 and by all accounts it should have been recycled and used for ACL printing*. So perhaps it was a corporate memento that survived scrapping? I'm also not ruling out fake as I've heard numerous folks in the 1960's slapping labels on old bottles. BUT if that was the case, then obviously there would be an ACL label on the inside or have some remnants of being 'rubbed' clean... none of which I can see.


----------



## misskayce

I am new here.I just sort of skimmed through the thread.I did not see anything about when they began using the non-returnable bottles.I know it was sometime in the 1960's.My dad always bought RC Cola for us.My brother went back to the old home place and found a few of our old bottles.I have a light green(agua?).I was wondering if there is a way to decipher the numbers on it to determine the year.I also have a clear one.


----------



## Canadacan

Hey Welcome to the forum!....pretty cool you were able to obtain bottles that you possibly drank from as a kid!...or at least that your dad bought!..wow! Yes the numbers generally can be deciphered, can you post pictures for us to see?


----------



## iggyworf

Yes, Please post some good clear pics of the bottoms especially. And welcome!


----------



## BlancoBros

Didn't know if this was posted on the boards before.

Ad from 1941. Actor Gary Cooper, Star of Samuel Goldwyn's "Ball Of Fire" (and obviously many other films).
"I prefer Royal Crown Cola anytime- winter or summer"


----------



## Eric

Here is a nice cooler that all those bottles may have chilled in....


----------

