# EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ...  (PART TWO)



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2010)

*                                ~ EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) ~*

*Unlike* my earlier thread under a similar title, (which primarily dealt with early crown-top soda bottles in general) Part Two will focus only on "Major Brands," and my seemingly neverending quest to identify the first major brand to transition from the Hutchinson bottles to Crown bottles. 

 You would think that a major change as significant as this would have generated some specific advertising to herald in this "new age" of soda bottles. But in my continuing research I have not found a single advertisement or reference along these lines. It seems that the transition "just happened" one day and little or nothing was ever said about it. Surely it was a major event for brands like Dr Pepper - Hires Rootbeer, and Coca Cola ... and yet there is (to my knowledge) no readily availabe information on when thease various transition were made. Possibly only in various company archives will I ever find the answer. But as we all know, most (if not all) of these records are inaccessable to the general public. Thus, requiring someone like myself to "dig" around the internet in the hope that some day I will be able to say with conviction ... "This is the first Crown-top soda bottle ever produced." 

 In terms of general interest, here is a nut-shell reference to the invention of the Crown closure. Notice the mention of Dr Pepper and El Paso, Texas. We know that Dr Pepper was first introduced in Waco, Texas in 1885, and that their first bottle was obviously a Hutchinson. But is it possible (based on the text below) that El Paso was home to the nation's very first Crown-top soda bottle?  Perhaps some day we will have a definitive answer. 

    (Note: Please allow me to complete 3 or 4 additional pages before posting replies - Thanks ... SODAPOPBOB). []

                                                                   ~ * ~ 

The crown cap was not an immediate success since it required new bottles, new bottling machinery, and a level of uniformity of bottle manufacture that was just beginning to be possible in the early 20th century. It was also possibly perceived as being "too good to be true" - the corollary to the human inclination to resist change.  There was also already a lot of fully functional beverage bottles in use that only accepted other closure types; businesses could not or would not make the large investment in new bottles without some proof that this new closure was a significant improvement on the old. Although it has been noted that by 1905 less than 25% of U. S. bottlers had adopted the crown finish/bottles, some areas seemed to have adapted to the new closure earlier.  For example, El Paso, TX. appeared to have the majority of bottles with crown finishes by 1905 or so. Conversion also came a little faster in New England and the Mid-West.

  [/align]*Dating Notes*:  It appears that no crown finish bottles date prior to the 1892 patent date. In fact, virtually all crown finish (soda and beer) bottles date to after ca. 1894-1895, since in 1893 a national depression (the famous "Panic of 1893") made investment capital very scarce for several years deterring the use of new and expensive equipment like that needed to accommodate this new closure.  As an example of the progression in acceptance of this finish/closure style, the crown finish first shows up in the 1896 _Illinois Glass Co._ catalog with just one soda bottle offering. In 1899 the IGCo. offered several different crown soda bottles. By 1903 21 different soda bottle molds were listed with crown finishes, and 37 different molds listed by 1911.[/align][/align]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2010)

Here's the photo that put me on the "band-wagon" for Part Two. It is an old photo of a very early Dr Pepper wagon showing both the Hutchinson and Crown bottles. (Date unknown, but surely turn of the century). I wish I could make out the label on the crown bottle, and would sincerely appreciate it if someone has specific information on it to share it with the rest of us. Thanks. SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2010)

And here's the earliest Hires Rootbeer ad I have been able to locate so far ... Dated 1896.  So far Dr Pepper and Hires are in the spotlight as being the earliest major brands to use the crown-top bottle. But which was first?  Stay tuned and hopefully I (with the help of others) will eventually have the answer. And what was Coca Cola, Pepsi and others doing at the time ... ???   Lots of questions, few bonified answers!

 Thanks again to all,

 SODAPOPBOB

 (We've seen this one before!)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2010)

A side project of mine will also include research on the first bottle "openers."  Because without a devise to open the newly invented crown-top bottles, how would anyone be able to open one? With this type of devise intended both for practical use as well as advertising, hopefully it will connect me to more specific brands and dates. Here's what I have come up with so far ... note the date of 1894.

 Bottle openers were introduced around 1894, when they put the first bottle caps on bottles. They needed a cap lifter for them, and William Painter, from Baltimore, Maryland, invented it. Actually he was trying to invent the bottle cap, the crown cap. But because he needed it, he came up with a little cast-iron opener to pop that cap. And they caught onâ€¦ both the crown caps and the openers. It spread all over the country.

 Here's just one example of an early opener ... dated circa 1900. As yet I have found nothing specific on a 1894 one   ... but will continue to search. (Note:  Apparently the holes on the right of this particular opener were intended to "adjust ?" the headlights on early automobiles. Until now I didn't know they were even adjustable).  ???

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 27, 2010)

I realize this is slightly off-topic, and include it here primarily because I have found numerous of the early bottle openers with the automobile headlight adjusters on them. Here's a Winston Touring Car made in 1903 (California, Idaho, New York) and clearly shows why an adjuster was needed. In fact, it appears as though they didn't know where to stop with the design ... as this particular model has more headlights than you can shake a stick at! (Just another small piece of a much larger puzzle).

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm still trying to date/identify the old black-and-white Dr Pepper wagon photo, but have run into a bit of a stumbling block that I could use some help with. Hopefully a Dr Pepper collector/expert will be able to clairify the following statement for me ... 

 "King of Beveragesâ€ was one of the first slogans for the soft drink Dr. Pepper (later simply â€œDr Pepper,â€ without the period). Several websites claim that the slogan was used from 1889-1914, but â€œKing of Beveragesâ€ appears to be first used in a 1906 newspaper advertisement.

 I know horse and buggies were still around in 1906, but something tells me the photo is older than that. Surely the controversy of the slogan date must have been resolved by now. But I have been unable to fully confirm and/or disclaim it either way.  Plus, I would dearly love to find an image or anything showing and discussing the paper label on the crown bottle.  If someone can help me out here I would sincerely appreciate it.

 Thanks a lot,

 SPB

 Here's a photo of the "Artesian," Waco, Texas bottling plant ... but doubtful the photo was taken in front of it. This particular ad dates ... 1907


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## celerycola (Jun 28, 2010)

That wagon was the float of Keay's Bottling Works at the Baton Rouge, LA Mardi Gras Parade on February 27, 1906. The Hutch bottle represented their soda water flavors and the crown for their 'leading drink' Dr. Pepper. The label reads "Dr. Pepper Phos Ferrates - Wheat and Iron with a picture of an anvil."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 28, 2010)

celery ~

 Thanks a million. I can't tell you how many times I looked at that label and couldn't make it out. The wheat looked like a couple of hands, and I never did have a clue regarding the anvil. So that dates the photo. But what is your opinion (or facts) regarding the date for the "King Of Beverages" slogan?  1906/07 or earlier? And while we are on the subject, do you have a "confirmed" date for their first crown-top bottle?

 Thanks again,

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 28, 2010)

You should check with the Dr. Pepper collectors or one of the well documented histories, particularly the book written by long time Dr. Pepper employee Harry Ellis who started the Dr. Pepper archives. My only interest in Dr. Pepper is due to one of their other soft drinks called Celery Champagne.

 Celery=Cola was bottled in Hutches starting in 1899 in Birmingham. When the bottling operation was spun off as a franchise in 1901 they started using crowns in addition to Hutches. Celery=Cola was bottled in a Hutch as late as 1909 by the franchise bottler in Charleston, WV.

 Coca-Cola started in Birmingham in 1901 using exclusively crown bottles. They added Hutch bottles a year later for soda water because the reusable stoppers were cheaper. Of all the towns that had a Hutch embossed Coca-Cola the only one that ever used them for Coke instead of soda water was Atlanta in 1899. They quickly discovered that the rubber seal on the Hutch stopper caused a bad taste in the Coca-Cola and had to use the more expensive crown stoppers. If you look at soda water price lists from the time you see that a case of Coca-Cola cost about ten cents more than soda water to pay for the non-reusable crown stoppers.

 The National Dope Company operated 1909-1911 and used both Hutches and crowns for the whole time. When that company was renamed Birmingham Bottling Company in 1911 they continued to use both Hutches and crowns at least to 1914 when federal law forced them to emboss the capacity on their Hutches.

 Pepsi-Cola had been bottled across the South in crown bottles for several years before the Pensacola FL franchise opened in 1909 and used a Hutch bottle. 

 Look into the history and you'll see there was no 'cut-off' for switching from Hutches to crowns. Many bottlers used both concurrently for many years. Probably the biggest reason to switch was the fact that you could bottle more quickly using crowns. When automatic crown bottling machines appeared in the larger bottling plants Hutches were used only by the very small bottlers. In 1912 the Birmingham Coca-Cola Bottling Company was bottling fifty thousand bottles of Coca-Cola a day in straight-side bottles. They could never have done that using Hutches.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 28, 2010)

celery ~

 Thanks. You are very articulate in your writing form, and I appreciate that as much as anything. I have searched through and read so many Historical documents (at least those I have found online) that I am almost blurry eyed. And yet, even with this said, I continually run across terms like "circa" - "around" etc. regarding dates of when this or that company first started using crown bottles. Maybe there is no easy soloution and that my number one question will never be answered. But one would sure think it wouldn't be so difficult to determine ...

                     "When" and "Who" used the first Crown-Closure soda bottle? 

 Even Bill Lockhart and Bill Lindsey admit they don't know the answer, and have added that "it's a good question!" But it seems to be a good question without a clear answer. Maybe it's no big deal, but it continues to intrigue me with a whimsical obsession. 

 Thanks so much for the contribution. I will take your advise to heart and employ it dilligently. Just watch, someone will pop up out of nowhere and say ... "Gee, why didn't you just ask me? The first major brand of soda pop to use a crown-top bottle was ... "

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

Since Crown Cork & Seal Company was based in Baltimore I suspect the first bottler to use a crown was a local one. There is a Baltimore Bottle Book but I don;t have a copy.


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## blobbottlebob (Jun 29, 2010)

> You would think that a major change as significant as this would have generated some specific advertising to herald in this "new age" of soda bottles.


 
 Hey SPB,

 I love the zeal with which you are pursuing the answers to your questions.  I also agree that Celerycola is spot on.

 It seems like bottlers way back when were more concerned with practical - useful - affordable glass bottles than they were with the exact type that they used. When hutches began to replace mineral waters, there was a long transition. (For example: Some bottlers put hutch stoppers in earlier long necked bottles.) It makes sense that the same occurred when crowns took over. One of the events that drove bottlers from hutchinsons towards crowns had to be the advent (and acceptance) of automatic bottle making machines. Those produced crowns in astounding numbers. Until then, there is likely overlap and shared usage.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

celery & blob ~

 Thanks to you both. Great minds must think alike; because researching the Baltimore, Maryland area for answers is exactly the avenue Bill Lindsey recommended that I pursue. Which I have done to some extent, but as yet have not found what I have been looking for. I fully understand the transition aspect, and agree there was a lot more going on than meets the eye. I keep hoping I will stumble onto some old advertisment with a headline stating something like ...

       Amazing Breakthrough Introduced For 100% Sterilized Bottled Beverages! 

                 Drink "Bob's Cola" and Taste The Difference For Yourself!

                   The all New ... "CROWN" OF SODA BOTTLES!

      Anyhoo ... the search continues, and I welcome all comments and photos.

 Thanks again,

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

I realize this may seem like kicking a dead horse / going in circles / groping for straws ... but the patent illustration below clearly shows that the capability of capping soda bottles was available right from the get-go in 1892. And even though I have yet to find a specific reference as to when-and-who was the first to use this new invention, I seriously doubt William Painter just stood around twiddling his thumbs for years doing nothing. 

 Following his original patent for a manually operated capping devise, Painter made at least three or four improvements to it (with new patent numbers granted) between 1892 and 1900. Surely someone was using it by 1900 ... but who?  Hires?  Possibly ... but he earliest ad I have come up with on Hires using a crown-top bottle is 1896.  Bill Lindsey is confident that "someone" was making and distributing crown-top bottles as early as 1894. But the question and research continues ... Who?

 I'll be back ...

 Thanks,

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

Regarding the "Crown Cork & Seal Company" ...



*1892-A New Industry*
 Foreman and inventor William Painter patents the 'crown cork' and soon thereafter starts the Crown Cork & Seal Company of Baltimore, Maryland.






[/align]


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS April 30, 1893 with a pic of the bottle*

Found this in a quick search.

 Beer - not soda.

 Wolters Brewing Co Savannah GA


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS April 30, 1893 with a pic of the bottle*

celery ~

 Thanks ... but I can't quite read it (too small of print). Is there a date associated with it?

 Thanks,

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Canada 1893*

Another Beer Bottler


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS England 1894*

Soda Bottler using both crowns and Codds


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

Kola Champagne
 Kola Tonic
 Iron Brew
 Cyclade
 Jubile
 etc

 Kingston, Jamaica


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Iowa Ginger Ale 1897*

beer and ginger ale


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS England 1894*

celery ~

 Fantastic! Where'd you find that stuff?  I see now where you added the dates near the top. Now all ya gotta do is find a "Soda" ad and you win my famous gold star!  In fact ... I'm going to present it to you now anyway!  Good Job!

 Thanks,

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Iowa 1898*

Lemars Bottling Works


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Moxie 1899*

Boston


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Texas 1900*

San Antonio


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Old Way v New Way*

WI


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*

Indianapolis 1901


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## epackage (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*

Dennis you truely are a wealth of info, it never ceases to amaze me........


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*

celery ~

 I can barely keep up with you ... keep it coming!  You may very well be establishing soda bottle "History" (At least on A-B.net). I don't know where you are finding that stuff, but I would sure like to know if you are interested in sharing. I've been searching everything I can find on early advertising ... but nothing like this. The only sites I shied away from were the ones requiring a fee. Please, please tell me ... I promise I won't tell if you want to keep it seceret.  []

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

Has anybody ever heard of these brands?  I haven't!  And what the heck is the Jamaica connection all about?  Now instead of hitting a dead-end, the flood gates have just been opened for more research!      Thanks to ...

*   ~ CELERYCOLA ~*
_*                                                      THE MAN OF THE HOUR!                                                                         *_






> ORIGINAL: celerycola
> 
> Kola Champagne
> Kola Tonic
> ...


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

Kola Champagne, Kola Tonic, and Punch Soda were popular brands in England and the Commonwealth: Australia, Canada, South Africa, Jamaica. Cyclaide was a variation on Cyc-Kola sold by Clicquot Club of Millis, MA starting in the 1890's. (There was also a Celery version from Philadelphia in 1897 called Bi-Kola). 

 Iron Brew was a popular flavor in the US an Canada as well as England. 

 Bottles and advertising for all these brands show up on ebay.


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

Jubilee Pop reminds me of the 1960's historical novel based on the early days of Coca-Cola where 'Jubilee' was the name of the famous Georgia drink. They even included a tragic Leo Frank character as superintendent of the Jubilee Factory.

 Does anyone else know of an entire novel based on a soft drink?


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*



> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Dennis you truely are a wealth of info, it never ceases to amaze me........


 
 Still not ready to give up my day job.[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*

Due to celerycola's amazing contributions I decided to celebrate the day by purchasing the "Crown Beverages" soda bottle shown below. When I stumbled onto it, it only had about five minutes left, with zero bids. So I got it for $2.99!  The seller didn't list a date, but I just liked it because of the brand name. I realize it has little or nothing to do with the "Earliest Crowns" but I'm hoping there is a connection of some kind. I don't think just anybody could use the name "Crown." I guess I will find out in a week or so.

          Thanks again celery ... I probably wouldn't have seen or purchased it otherwise. [8|]

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS 18 Million Crowns*

celery ~

 You've done enough already, but if you "happen" to come across an ad like the others from your top-secret site, and is by a major brand like Hires - Dr Pepper - Moxie, etc. ... that is pre-1900 or so, and makes a specific reference to "The New Crown Closure," please post it and I will put this puppy to rest. At this point I'm ready to call it good, and would be completly satisfied with just one good ad by a national brand. And if/when one turns up, I'll bet you a nickle it's either Hires or Moxie. Although not positive, I'm pretty sure (because so much research has been done) that Coca Cola and Pepsi waited until "after" the turn of the century. From everything I've read about Coca Cola, it appears their first crown was circa 1900 - 1904. 

 Thanks again,

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

The 1899 Moxie was the earliest US Brand. 

 Here's a Crown bottling machine from a 1900 ad in the National Bottler's Gazette:


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## celerycola (Jun 29, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

One last pic from Georgia:


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

According to my latest Internet research, the Hires Rootbeer bottle shown below is said to be from 1893, and made by the Crystal Bottling Company, with the accompanying text supporting this claim. I am just now beginning to research the Crystal Bottling Co. history, and hopefully will find further confirmation. My initial query pulled up several companies by the same or similar names. One I found was on morbious_fod's Tazwell site, but that particular bottler was Crystal Bottling & Cider Company, Graham, Va., and likely not the same as the one referred to in the following text. Perhaps Morb can shed a little more light on this subject for us ... hint - hint!  []  Thus far I can find no image or references stating that Hires was ever available in a Hutchinson style bottle, but will stand corrected if someone comes forward with one. If the 1893 date below is correct, it certainly qualifies it as being one of, and possibly the first national brand to bottle and distribute soda pop in a Crown-Top bottle.

 SPB

 Text :

 The next logical step for a businessman like Charles Hires was to bottle finished root beer, and make people's lives easier by removing the need to do any work to produce root beer at home. In 1893, the Crystal Bottling Company began bottling Hires Root Beer and distributing it to local retailers. Of course being a pharmacist, Charles promoted his root beer as being good for you. With it's slightly bitter herbal character, every root beer, no matter which recipe (and they're all a little different) has a slightly medicinal flavor. That's part of what makes root beer taste so old fashioned!


1893 Hires Rootbeer Bottle ...?  Note the rounded bottom on this one as compared to the flat bottomed bottle shown earlier in the 1897 advertisment. Of course, this bottle would have had a paper label of some kind.


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## celerycola (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB


 
 That's a fairly common form Hires bottle found in cities all over the US in clear and aqua and even a few ambers in California. Most have no bottler name or town but a few do have this information embossed. It even appears in a machine made variant.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Thanks again. This is a learning process for me, with my research results being that of internet sources I have to rely on. And regarding the numerous references I have found pertaining to Hire's 1893 bottle, do you have any specific information or images on that?  Is it possible that the same bottle was used for several years?  

 SPB


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## celerycola (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I would date that bottle 1905 - 1920 based on a number of them I've seen in the wild. I've been digging and collecting bottles for forty years and still don't consider myself an expert. 

 As far as sources on the internet most are unqualified. Anything that doesn't reference a primary source is questionable. Unfortunately anyone can post misinformation on a website or in an ebay auction. Once someone else turns that speculation into gospel the misinformation may get widely distributed as 'fact.'

 Since 1970 I done primary research on soda history in at least twenty states, have gone through thousands of newspapers and directories, read every issue of the National Bottler's Gazette from 1882 to 1930 along with issues of American Bottler, Western Bottler, and the Southern Carbonator and Bottler, and consumed hundreds of local histories and biographies to glean what soda related information I could find. Even though the piles of research in my bottle room are high enough to obscure the bottles on the shelves I still don't consider myself an expert.

 I may have some information on early Hires bottlers but have no idea at the moment where that Hires folder could be found.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Thanks again. And I know you don't think I'm trying to forceably "pour" Hires down anyone's throat, so I won't even go there. But it's the clearly dated advertisments like the one below (dated 1895) that keeps me pulling my hair out for a definitive answer. We know that Hires was established around 1876 and that it was first available in fountains and then later in the small/square syrup bottles that everyone and their brother has in their collection. But what really confuses me is the transition from syrup to carbonated bottles. No question they had a crown-top by 1897. There are tons of those dated ads. But again, it's the circa 1894/95 ads that boggle me. Some suggest root beer that was "bottled" at home. (Which my dad did back in the 1920s). While others suggest a retail carbonated bottle available from a local grocer. But what befuddles me most of all, is the "Type" of bottles they are referring to. Some look like Blob-Top / Lightning Stopper types ... others have a raw cork with a string to hold them in place. And of course we have the for-sure crowns by 1897.  But if these earlier bottles were "corkers" then why can't I find a single example of a real one? Everybody knows that Hires slapped their name on everything that wasn't nailed down, and surely they did it with their "First" carbonated bottle!  But where are they?  All I can find are crown tops!  Help! ... "Obi-Wan-Kanobi" ... you're my only hope!  Lol  []

 SPB

 Ladies Home Journal (Cover) 1895  ... Hires interior ad to follow.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hires ad (Same Magazine)  ... is that a blob top or a crown top?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

And what about this one from 1895? ... Home "Corker" or Retail bottle?  (It says one packet makes five gallons).


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Another "Home Brew" ad. (Cork with string ... surely they didn't sell it in stores this way ... or did they?)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Last but not least a 1899 with "Crown Opener."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Final thoughts ... 

 First; I want to apologize if my last postings seemed like a bombardment. That was not my intent. 

 Second; I'm so ready to put this thread to rest, it's hard to put into words. But before doing that I'm hoping that myself or some other member like yourself will produce an actual photo showing a definitive Hire's bottle from 1893 to 1895. I'm convinced they had one, as all the evidence suggest it. And at this point I will even settle for a blob-top-type if in fact that was their first bottle. Surely there must be one out there somewhere!

 I truly appreciate your help, and want to publicly thank you for your "expertise" on this matter. If you are not an expert of some kind, then I don't know who is!   []   It sure as heck ain't me!

                                                            Thanks again,

                                                       SODA "POOPED" BOB

         1894 ad with "Cork" closure ... Home or Retail ... ?????????????????????  ...   [][][][][][][][][][]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

I thought I would share this photo of an "Iron Brew" bottle cap I found on e-Bay today. (It's one of the brands from celerycola's post).  I have no idea of a date, nor if "Iron Brew" was a beer or soda. Although the term "brew" certainly suggest beer. I just love the image ... and can't help but wonder which came first ... "Arm & Hammer" baking soda, or "Iron Brew" beer/soda?  [8|]  Hmmm ... who knows?  Maybe they are related.   

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

P. S. ~

 Being as I couldn't recall, I went back and checked ... it's a "Beer" cap and still available for $12.95 ... (No thanks !)  []

 SPB


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## madman (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

hey bob nice early hires adds thanks for sharing!


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## T D (Jun 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

One thing I have found about researching old ads, they are an invaluable source of information.  BUT, what I also know to be true is that just because you have a picture of a certain bottle, that doesn't necessarily mean that the local plant used those bottles.  In my corner of research, the local Chero Cola plant was opened in 1915.  There are some 1915 ads that show the "slant script" bottle in the ad.  It is widely regarded that 1913 and 1914 were the two years that the "slant script" was used.  All the known locals are of the "block lettering" variety.  I love to imagine that there is an older variation out there, but until then....  

 What we all need to remember, no matter how much research that we do, there is still tons of stuff out there that we don't know yet.  We must avoid trying to find that "magical" site out there in cyberspace to answer all the questions.  Dennis has devoted a lifetime to EXTENSIVE research, and for him to consider himself "not an expert" certainly makes me a complete novice.  Patience is a virtue!

 I'm guilty as the next guy at wanting questions answered NOW.  Sometimes we just gotta research some more.

 I ADMIRE Bob's enthusiam for research and desire for answers.  If you never question anything, you never learn anything.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

T D ~

 Thank you for the very helpful reply. I sincerely respect your insights and opinions, as well as those of others who have devoted a lifetime of interest and research to the hobby of collecting soda bottles. And thanks to the endless variety of topics discussed here on Antique-Bottles.net I continue to learn something new every day. This is the very reason I enjoy participating in the multitude of threads, as well as contributing some of my own. And it may be of interest to note that one of the first things I searched through when coming aboard, was the A-B archives for information on two specific areas that have intrigued me for years. One being the history of the first ACL bottles, and the other being the history of the first Crown-top bottles. And yet I was surprised to discover there was very little information available here, or elsewhere for that matter, regarding specifics on these two topics. Thus my reason for creating the two threads in question.

 When I Google search "Hires Root Beer" I typically get about 8,000 results. And when I add the word "Bottle" to that same search it reduces it to about 4,500 results. Believe it or not, I have kept a running list of my second search wording, "Hires Root Beer Bottle" and am currently only about half-way through it. And of those "hundreds" of results I have looked at, I repeatedly come across references like this ...  (Copy/Pasted)

 Most sources list 1893 as the date when bottled Hires Root Beer went on the market. According to a 1932 United States Board of Tax Appeals decision, it was in 1895 that the Charles E. Hires Company â€œadded to its former products carbonated root beer put up in bottles ready for consumption.â€ 

 Hopefully everyone concerned will appreciate the fact that my intent here is not to create controversy, but rather to simply employ the help of others in assisting me to locate and identify one of these seemingly elusive bottles. I just figured since this is an antique bottles website, the chances might be promising that someone has one in their collection. But the more I look into it, the more I realize I may be looking for something that doesn't exist. And yet, even as I say this I am reminded of the dozens upon dozens of references I have come across saying that one does exist. 

                     So with all this said, I will rephrase my initial question by asking ...

 Does anyone here on Antique-Bottles.net have one of those 1895 Hires bottles, or know of any specific information to either confirm or disconfirm it's existance?  And if not this specific bottle, what is the earliest Hires bottle you do have? I sure would like to hear from you and see what you have; if for no other reason than to put an old guy's curiosity to rest.  []

 Thank you so much for allowing me to ramble ... it appears to be what I do best. I sure as heck ain't no bonified reasearcher ... that's for sure!

 Respectfully,

 Bob        [/align]


----------



## Wangan (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

Would it be possible to contact the Hires company and ask them when their first crown top came out? After all,they are still in business and must have a history about themselves somewhere.


----------



## celerycola (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I pulled these pics of bottom-embossed Hires from an old forum post. I've seen lots of the blob Hires like the one on the left. The two-ring lip on the bottle on the right is new to me and appears to be an older style. It is a good candidate for the 1895 Hires bottle. I suspect the blob on the left is newer and was used concurrently with the same bottle in a crown. Consumers may have had a preference for one or the other and Hires likely supplied both to cover the market.


----------



## celerycola (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This bottle from Bob's 1896 ad appears to be the same bottom-embossed bottle as the blob just with the crown closure. 

 What magazine was that ad from?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

wangan ~

 Thanks for the suggestion, but I have done that very thing twice. I received a reply from one of my inquiries saying they were unable to assist me at this time, but suggested I purchase one of several books published that details the companies history. They also gave me an e-mail address to a collectors club which I have not heard back from yet but hope to soon. At this point I'm not even sure if their first bottle was a Hutchinson, Blob or a Crown-top. I just figured with so many avid collectors here on A-B.net that at least one collector would have one or know something about it. From everything I have gathered so far it leads me to believe it was a blob-top of some kind and definitely has the name Hires embossed on it. But mainly I would like to see their first crown, and may have already seen it but don't realize it because of the difficulty in dating post 1900 bottles. You would think from all the websites I have looked at that there would be at least one photo of one, but so far all I have come across are images from magazine ads, etc. My next step is to research the 1932 Tax Appeals stuff. Hopefully that will shed a little more light on things, but I doubt it will provide me with a photo. Which brings me back here where I started. I'm sure something will turn up "one of these days."

 Thanks again,

 SPB


----------



## Wangan (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

What about patents? This is interesting and I hope you find your answer.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897*

celery ~

 Weird! We were both typing and posting at the same time ... only about four minutes apart. Like I said, "great minds think alike!"  []  Thanks again for your invaluable assistance. I went through the archives some time back but somehow missed those photos. Exactly what I have been looking for all along. Now find me one with a paper label ... Lol  []  (just kidding).  I'm tickled pink with what you found. I'm going back now to check on that magazine ad, but I believe it was dated 1896.

 Thanks again ... I'll be back.

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

The ad below is from Cosmopolitan Magazine, and dated 1897. The earliest I have found so far is the Ladies Home Journal from 1895. But that appears to be a blob-top and not a crown. At this point I honestly believe they introduced their first crown in 1897. Which I am personally happy with, and feel it is safe enough to "assume" this was the introduction date. One thing is clear to me, and that is that Hires was one of the most aggressive advertisers in the country at the time. Even Coca Cola didn't get that involved with advertising until after the turn of the century. One explaination for this may be that (according to some sources) Hires had it's initial beginnings as early as the 1850s, (soda fountains) and went national around 1876 with their bottled syrups for home brewing.

 So unless someone produces something to the contrary, I am going with 1897 for a date of their first crown. I realize this is somewhat speculative, but close enough for a former Boy Scout from sunny southern California. I'm even going to go out on a limb here and say the next time someone ask ...

 ... what was the United States first national brand of soda pop to use a crown-closure bottle? I will respond ... 


"*Hires Root Beer ! "*

                            Or was it Moxie ?   (Stay Tuned !)

                                      Thanks again to all ...

                                                 SPB

Cosmopolitan 1897


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Please forgive me folks, but I'm full of mischief this morning and couldn't resist this one. Just think of it as me saying ...


*                          " I WANT YOU! ... *

*    ... to accept my thanks for being so helpful."  []*


*                                          Sincerely,*

*                                      SODAPOPBOB*


----------



## celerycola (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

The reference to Hires Root Beer being bottled by Crystal Bottling Company still intrigues me. I wonder if Crystal was a 'contract bottler' like those of our day that bottle and can 'store brand' pop but do not have the actual bottler name on the bottle.

 I did find this reference at sodasandbeers.com to a local Philadelphia Hutch embossed Crystal Bottling Company. This must have been the bottler referred to since Hires was a Philadelphia firm.

 Bottle 03084AA - Crystal Bottling Company

 Embossed: () THE CRYSTAL BOTTLING CO. / PHILADA //
 Dimensions: ? x ?
 Manufacturer: Not Known
  	Material:	Glass		
  	Mold Type:	Two Leaf Mold
  	Form:	Cylindrical	
  	Shape:	Hutchinson
  	Pictures: None
 Notes: Details are not known. The last "A" in "PHILADA" is raised and underlined.
 Variants

 1.	 Aqua, Smooth Base, Rounded Collar, Hand Blown, Hutchinson Internal Spring Stopper, Philadelphia, PA, United States
 Comments: None
 Contributor/Source: Frank Kendorski


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 It intrigues me too!  So what'a ya say we "CAP" this thing off with a photo of that Hutch? I'll be back if/when I find one ... but something tells me you will likely beat me to it ... I hope! [] 

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 I didn't want to show up empty-handed so I brought this Crystal Bottling Co. Hutch with me to share with others. You've probably already seen it as it's from here on A-B.net. But it doesn't really count because it's from Key West, Florida. There sure are a lot of references to Crystal Bottling Co.I found another one that was located in Kentucky. There are also similar companies that use the word Crystal Bottling "Works" in their name. I suspect you are right that Hires used a generic Hutch bottle, and that it probably had a paper label identifying it as such. Let us know if you find something, but don't rack your brain. Personally, I'm still giddy with the blob-tops you found. []

 Thanks again,

 SPB

 P.S. ~  I was amazed to discover there was a Hutchinson bottling company in Key West at some point. I don't think they even built the connecting bridges until sometime in the 1920s or 30s ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

_*                             ~ Read All About It ! ~*_

Here's the A-B link where celerycola found the Hires blob-tops ... plus some other interesting Hires stuff. It was started by "Carling" on April 13, 2009. It's easier this way than having to go through the search feature for those interested in checking it out. The photo below is from the thread, and although not a 1896/97 crown-top ... it's still very cool. I still cant believe I missed all of this stuff during my earlier searches. I honestly believe now that the search mode wasn't working or something that day ... but I guess I will never know for sure.

SPB

Link :    https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-32352/mpage-1/key-hires%252Cpaper%252Clabel/tm.htm#54166


----------



## celerycola (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

A bridge? Cars weren't widely available until after 1900. This Hutch and the blob sodas I've seen from Key West predated the automobile. 

 Key West was even important enough to have a Celery=Cola bottling plant.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

                         You're right "again!"  The following text is from Wikipedia ...

 The older bridge, originally known as the Knights Key-Pigeon Key-Moser Channel-Pacet Channel Bridge, was constructed from 1909-1912 under the direction of Henry Flagler as part of the Florida East Coast Railway's Key West Extension, also known as the Overseas Railroad.

 But, (according to the above) I guess they had a "Train."  Of course this still post-dates later than the Hutchinson bottles that were likely from the late 1870s or early 80s. By the way ... do you have one of the Celery=Colas from Key West?  I bet they are as rare as hen's teeth!  [X(]

 SPB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jul 1, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

CORRECTION !!!

                 The last A-B link I posted was started by "Barqs19" and dated March 22, 2006

                                                    Here's the 2009 "carling" thread ...

 See how it goes with research ... One dummy like me post an incorrect date and it messes everything up!  Sorry 'bout that!

 SPB

 Link :  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-217160/mpage-1/key-hires%252Cpaper%252Clabel/tm.htm#217160


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 19, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I haven't posted to this thread since July 1, 2010. And although I'm still content with Hires likely being the first major brand of soda pop who used a Crown top bottle, I was stumbling around the internet this morning and found a photo of a super early Crown top made in/around 1893. It was used by a brand called "J. McLaughlin Soda Water."  The link below will take you to the site where I found it. I would have posted a photo but it has one of those lock-down pop-ups that won't allow photos to be saved. Otherwise it appears to be a totally save site. I have an extremely high level security system and it allowed access with no problems. In any event I just wanted to ad it here as an example of an extremely early Crown. Once the site opens just scroll down a ways and you will see it on the left side. Eventually I intend to do a little more research on it. Notice it says ... c. (circa) 1893 ... which means the posibility of an actual later date.

 By the way: The site has a lot of other cool stuff too. Enjoy!

 SPBOB

 LINK :    http://www.digitaldeliftp.com/LookAround/advertspot_canadadry.htm


----------



## celerycola (Aug 19, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> http://www.digitaldeliftp.com/LookAround/advertspot_canadadry.htm


 
 Bob,

 Here's your bottle pic.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 19, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Fantastic! Maybe we should start a "Hey Celery" thread ... and ask "how'd you do that?"  It looks like the same photo I was having a problem with earlier. ???

 And if you really want to make my day, perhaps you know when Hires introduced their first acl ?

 Mucho gracias'

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Aug 19, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Sometimes you need to click with the middle finger. That usually get a response.

 My Hires info is rather thin and my acl collection consists of a dozen bottles: all Celery Soda.


----------



## fanboy (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Regarding the McLaughlin, I have doubts that it is 1893. I would have to see it to be sure. The one in the picture looks a little too well made for a Canadian bottle of that period. 

 Machine made bottles started around 1907, so I would like to see the lip and if there is a suction scar. I have similar slug plate quarts that I would put in the teens or later. McLaughlin was using bottles in the 1890's but they were blobs/corkers. The bottles I have dating 1906 have lots of internal bubbles and the hand tooled necks often are not straight.

 I have attached a photo of 2 York Strings bottles from Toronto Ontario. I figure it is the best representation of the change to crown caps in Canada. It would appear the torpedo mold was modified to give it a flat bottom and a new crown tool was used. My feeling is that this is still in the 1900's...

 Chris


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

fanboy ~

 Thanks for the info and photos. I enjoy seeing examples of transition bottles. I agree with you regarding the McLaughlin bottle, and have my reservations as well about the c. 1893 date. It can be extremely tough to properly date bottles from the turn of the century unless specific information can be found on company histories, etc. I mainly posted it as a "possible" candidate of an early example. I am still searching for that elusive "First Crown," but suspect my endeavours may be in vain, and that I may never find it. I think the answer rest somewhere in the northeastern part of the U.S., and keep hoping I will someday stumble across an old advertisement of somekind saying something like ... "Introducing the New and Improved Closure for Soda Beverages."  []  But, like I mentioned earlier, I'm currently happy with the Hires bottle. Which, based on everything I know so far is certainly one of the earliest "National Brands" to use the Crown top.

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB


----------



## madman (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

hey bob heres some early knoxville crown tops


----------



## madman (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

early toledo crown top


----------



## madman (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

one more knoxville


----------



## madman (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

early toledo


----------



## madman (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

maryville tn.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 20, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hey madman ~ Fantastic!

 Check it out! I too have one of those "T. C. Fox" bottles. I bought it specifically for research on this thread. And by "early," do you have any specific info regarding dates? And if you have a formula of some kind for dating any of the turn of the century Crowns, please share it with us and you will be my new best friend.  (Serious, but still L'ingol). []

 Thanks

 BOB


----------



## Lordbud (Aug 22, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Interesting thread, full of information. Link to a 1910 - 1920 thread with tooled crown-tops made by the PCGW in San Francisco. PCGW didn't switch over to machines until 1924, so on the flipside is the question, "What is the latest tooled-top crown soda made in the US?"

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-214059/mpage-1/key-train/tm.htm#214061


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Lordbud ~

 Thanks for stopping by and sharing that interesting link. Here's one for you in return regarding your "Latest Tooled Finish" question. If you haven't seen this site yet you are in for a real treat. There is so much information about bottles it boggles the mind. I have exchanged several e-mails with it's author, who is not only informative but a great individual. (Although retired now, I believe he only maintains the site but doesn't devote as much time to it as he used to. But he said he still gets out and hunts bottles from time to time).

 Anyway, check it out. It will take a lifetime to read through all of it. The particular link I am posting will open on a page where all you need do is scroll down a ways to a topic box, and then click on "Crown Cap."  It will tell you pretty much everything you need to know as to when the latest tooled Crown's were produced. And if you wish to learn more there are about a jillion other pages to look at.

 Enjoy !

 SPBOB

 Link :   http://www.sha.org/bottle/closures.htm#Crown


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Aug 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Just for the heck of it I thought I'd add this Hires photo I "borrowed" from A-B.net member wonkapete. I am still of the mind that Hires was one of if not the first national brand to start using the Crown closure. The bottles shown here are similar to others posted earlier, but the one on the right looks super early. Hopefully wonkapete will eventually see this and tell us more about them. I believe wonka has one of the largest collections in the country, and probably should be the author of this thread and many others of mine.  []

 Thanks wonkapete. I hope you don't blush from all the kudos, nor object to my posting your bottles. 

 SPBOB

 Early-Early Hires Bottles ... (I think)(I hope)


----------



## celerycola (Sep 15, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This has got to be it.

 According to the seller this crown soda is PONTILLED! 

 http://cgi.ebay.com/VTG-Emboss-Pontil-Glass-OK-Soda-Bottle-Works-Ontario-CA-/110586638264?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bf7a2fb8#ht_1848wt_1129


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 15, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

"We tried to do some research on this great piece, but could find nothing!  We always welcome expert advice/info!!  "

 ...shall we?    http://cgi.ebay.com/VTG-Emboss-Pont...ltDomain_0&hash=item19bf7a2fb8#ht_1937wt_1137


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 15, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celerycola ~ Thanks. Great lead on a strong possibility for a very, very early crown top bottle. Pre 1895 ??? Maybe.

 cyberdigger ~ Is that your bottle on e-bay or are you just interested in researching it? Or both? And as far as research is concerned ... here's the photo of the base in question. I'm still studying it and at the moment will leave it up to the "Pontil Experts" to comment on. Various other photos can be seen by going directly to the e-bay site.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This is a copy/pasted question and reply someone sent to the e-bay seller regarding the bottle above.

 Q:  Greetings.. I would like to learn more about the pontil mark on the base of this hand-crafted artifact.. would you please tell us if it is iron or open? Sep-15-10

 A:  Hello! Well, great question! Since we are not experts regarding 'pontil' bottles, we thought we had better to some checking, so that we could respond accurately to you! WOW! We were definitely unaware, and surprised, that there are so many 'types' and definitions of pontil markings!! Guess we can say for certain now, that we absolutely do not know which, or if this bottle has authentic pontil marks!  Therefore, we believe (based on our quick research) that if the mark on this bottle, is in fact pontil, it would be categorized as 'iron bar' or 'ground polished'. However, we may have mixed up the pontil mark with a 'mold' mark, as they both can appear (to the untrained eye...that's us!!) to resemble a bulls eye or dot in the 'depressed' center of the base. Not sure if any of this helps??!  Sorry!! But if you have additional info to help us solve this 'pontil' or 'not-pontil' mystery, we would love to know!!  Thanks so much for your interest...and understanding! Charlene


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

[8|] there ya have it...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Eventually I intend to do some additional research on the "OK" brand itself and see what may turn up on that regarding a date. I'm sure it's an early example of somekind. In the meantime here is a refresher of a couple of other bottles shown previously in this thread. I still need to research this brand a little more as well, and wish I could find more examples like this from the same company that clearly illustrates the transition from blob top to crown top. But even here the dates are in question ... with dates - dates - dates being the question from day one. Oh well, I guess that's what Google is for.

 Thanks again for breathing a little life into this thread. Someday we'll find that "first crown" or be darned.

 SPBOB

 Johannesburg blob and crown. (Exact dates unknown)


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Sorry to have been so elusive.. first I quoted a selection from the ebay listing, then I asked the question which the seller answered, and _how_..
 FACT: there are no pontilled crown tops. 
 By the time this sodey was made, the people who stuck punty rods to the bases of bottles were turning in their graves.. it is 100% machine made. 1920', -30's. []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

cyberdigger ~

          Thanks for that. I can see we are both brick layers and prefer it when everything lines up.  

                                                                SPBOB

                                                                    []
                                                                    []
                                                                    []
                                                                    []
                                                                    []


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hi Bob, me again! Yes I know it's not necessarily from the States, but any idea on how old this crown top might be? It's very blobby and definitely an applied lip. I'll show the base, but it doesn't help much (certainly not pontilled !!!)


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

the base : it has J. K. & S (bit unclear)  and 2952 embossed -


----------



## celerycola (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> This has got to be it.
> 
> ...


 
 My post was entirely in jest. The use of pontil for applying/finishing a bottle lip was discontinued decades for the invention of the Crown Cork. Also, if you look closely at the photos for this auction you will see mold seams going to the top of the bottle and horizontally below the collar. The bottle was complete when taken from the mold - there was no additional finishing. This bottle is an early machine made and probably dates 1910-20. This is a great example of an ebay description by someone who does not know bottles.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

SAbottles ~

 I have seen similar bottles and jokingly refer to them as "ET" bottles ... skinny neck and big head. But I admit I know very little about them. However, I will say this; From my research I am beginning to suspect there are some valid reasons to support the possibility that the crown closure may have first appeared in Europe, and that William Painter's 1892 patent may not have been the true "first invention" of the design. But since we are primarily interested in U.S. bottles, I will leave the European possibility for someone else to research.

 But getting back to your ET bottle, it's definitely an early crown of some kind. Just about any crown with an applied lip and tons of bubbles has got to be fairly old. I'd say at least pre machine made, which would place it around 1906 or earlier. I intend to do some research on the embossing and see what I can find. Or perhaps someone will recognize it immediately and solve the mystery instantly.

 Thanks for sharing ... and how'z about a full image of the bottle? And did you "find" it in SA? Or did it possibly migrate there from another country?


 celery ~  They say most of the best detective work in the world is accomplished by the process of elimination. Thus, in my opinion you are a good detective! Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

You're right, Bob, it is a long skinny one! Yes it was dug out here, but no embossing or label unfortunately. Here is the whole bottle:


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Here is an easier one (note the "American" Cream Soda) :


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I say easier because the Talana Glass Works were considerate enough to date their bottles on the base! Sorry, I know this isn't the _*earliest *_crown top, but at least it's easier to date! -  1945


----------



## celerycola (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This looks like the kind of bump where horizontal and vertical mold seams meet. If there are horizontal mold seams just below the collar then the bottle is machine made.


----------



## SAbottles (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Oh it's definitely machine made; the seam runs right up through the lip. I just thought it was of some interest because of the label & the fact that it was so considerately dated! I have many of these with different dates, 40s to early 50s. After 1953 Talana started using a triangle with different coded dots, frustrating if you don't have the code !


----------



## cyberdigger (Sep 16, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Those applied crowns are kind of intriguing.. I have dug up several amber and olive specimens from a TOC context and although they were otherwise unspectacular, I kept them, finding it odd that a crown top would be applied rather than tooled, since tooled lips were quite the manufacturing norm by 1892. 
 My best guess as of yet is they were of British/European origin.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 12, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I haven't posted to this thread in about a month, and wanted to share a photo and accompanying information regarding an early crown-top bottle that I received from Bill Lockhart. As most of us know, Bill has in the past, and continues to do extensive bottle research, and is well known and respected among the bottle collecting community. Ocassionally I will contact him, as well as Bill Lindsey, regarding my ongoing research involving early crown-closure bottles.

 Here's the message and photo Bill Lockhart send me regarding an early El Paso, Texas crown-top.

                                                                 ~ * ~

 { The bottle shown has a crown finish with embossing for R.F. Johnson. The HP in the center indicates Henry Pfaff.  R.F. Johnson moved to Salinas, California in 1895. Pfaff ran the operation until December 1898 when he took over completely and began advertising under his own name. Pfaff remained in business until 1907.

 Johnson used a total of four different kinds of Hutchinson soda bottles between 1891 and 1895. The bottle in the photo had to have been ordered by Pfaff sometime between 1895 and 1898. I have estimated it circa 1897 because Pfaff certainly used up Johnson's Hutchinson supply first. However, there would have been no reason to include the Johnson name after December 1898.

 Pfaff had his own crown-topped bottle, simply embossed HENRY PFAFF / EL PASO / TEX.  He used the same bottle during his entire remaining years in business.}

                                                                 ~ * ~

 I intend to follow Bill's advise and will be taking a closer look at some of the so called local bottlers, as opposed to just the national brands. It's very possible that the smaller bottlers were the first to start using crown closures. Whereas the larger national brands, like Coca Cola and others, put off phasing out their Hutchinson bottles until they felt it absolutely necessary to do so. The earliest crown-topped Coca Cola bottle I am aware of is dated 1902.

                                                                 ~ * ~  

 R.F. Johnson / Henry Pfaff crown-topped soda bottle ... circa 1897. Notice the somewhat crude top. Applied / non-machine made.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Today's focus is on a bottle sent to me recently by member Cyberdigger. It is a E. L. Kerns crown soda from Trention, New Jersey. On the heel it is embossed ... E.H.E.CO 

 I found this to go with it ...

 [*]E.H.E.CO ... Edward H. Everett Company (Newark Star Glass Works), Newark, OH (1880-1904). Plant merged in 1904 to become part of the Ohio Bottle Company and in 1905 part of the American Bottle Company. American was purchased by Owens Bottle Company in 1916, and in 1929 this plant became part of the merger that resulted in the formation of Owens-Illinois Glass Company.

 Based on the above information we know the bottle cannot date any later than about 1904. And according to cyberdigger's expert knowledge on early soda bottles, he is certain it dates sometime in the 1890s. I fully agree with cyberdigger, and have done some additional research of my own which should help to confirm the 1890s date.

 Also, I would like to take this opportunity to officially thank cyberdigger for his most generous gift. And even though I feel a little guilty about accepting it, it is a beautiful example of an early crown soda that I will always treasure.     

 This current discussion will involve about three pages. And to conclude this particular page here is a photo of the bottle itself.

 SPBOB

 Note the detailed Elk's head at the top.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

And here are the bottle's earlier "cousins" from a photo by cyberdigger. These are blob-types that pre-date the crown. Notice that the bottle on the right (except for the top/finish) is almost identical to the crown example. These would date pre-1892 when William Painter patented the crown closure.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Below we have a closeup of the crown closure itself. And this is where things get a little complicated (at least for me) regarding the more difficult task of precisely dating these early crowns. Even with all the research I have done on this subject, I will admit here and now I always thought that an "applied" finish and a "tooled" finish were one and the same thing. But thanks to cyberdigger's bringing it to my attention recently, I stand corrected on this, and now know the two finishes are distinctly different.

 But rather than my going into detail about this, I invite you to visit the following two links and read about it for yourselves. With the focus being on the fact that a "tooled" finish will have distinctive tool marks on the lip that look something like swirls or smudging where the caliper tool was spun around the top. The information in the links will explain all of this in much more detail than I could ever do.

 This first link involves various finishes in general, with the emphasis on "applied/tooled" finishes.  
http://www.sha.org/bottle/finishes.htm#Applied

 This second link more closely involves the "Crown" finishes in particular.
http://www.sha.org/bottle/closures.htm#Crown

 Notice in this closeup of the E.L. Kerns crown bottle that there are no tool marks, or any of the swirl/smudging marks I mentioned above. See where the near-surface bubble is undisturbed? This is a clear indication the bottle was not "tooled", making it a true "applied" finish in my opinion. But this is not to say that all "applied" finishes were not "tooled."  Finishing tools definitely go back to at least the mid 1800s. I am only saying that I agree with cyberdigger that the bottle is certainly a 1890s example of a very early crown. And currently the oldest example of one in my collection. Thanks again cyberdigger ... you did good, and I appreciate it.

 Bob

 Disappearing seam also visible at bottom near the two black dots.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Lastly is this illustration of an early tooling caliper. It was hinged and would close around the top of the bottle and spun while the glass was still hot. Notice at the bottom where it is shaped like a crown-topped bottle. These types of tools usually pre-date the automatic bottle machines that were first introduced around 1905.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

P.S. ~ 

             My next area of research (and my next question for that matter) involves this ...

 Is it possible to have a true applied (BIM) crown closure that was at the same time non-tooled, and yet show no sign of dripping?

 Clue:  An applied finish "typically" would have some indication of "dripping" near the closure base. 

                               If you have a definitive answer to this please post it.

                                                              Thanks,

                                                              SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Cyberdigger ~

 Help! I am at my usual confused stage again, and need some assistance. In answer to my own question, and following some additional research I found on Bill Lindsey's website, it seems apparent now that your/our E.L. Kerns bottle does in fact have a tooled finish and not an applied one. I summarize this new finding of mine with the information below that I just re-discovered but had forgotten. As we know, the Kerns bottle definitely has a "disappearing seam" on the neck of the bottle. 

 I am still researching, but I was hoping you could set me straight on the date(s) when they transitioned from applied finishes where the seam goes clear to the base of the lip, verses the tooled finishes where the seam disappears on the neck of the bottle?

 Thanks again,

 Bob    

*The "standard" tooled finish is identified by a side mold seam that distinctly ends or fades out on the neck distinctly below the bottom edge of the finish. *


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

The photo below is from Bill Lindsey's website. I realize they are bitters bottles and not crown soda's, but according to Bill they are perfect examples of all "applied" vs "tooled" bottles. But as yet I still can't make complete sense of the transition date(s). It's this photo and various other bits of information that raise new questions for me regarding the Kerns bottle. If we can narrow down when bottles like this with disappearing shoulder seams first started, we may be able to more precisely date the Kerns bottle. And at present that is my primary focus. We know for sure it dates somewhere between 1892 and 1904 (no question about that) ... but if there is any way possible to nail it down even closer would be a great stride for me regarding all of this dating stuff. Sometimes it boggles my mind!

 Thanks for the millionth time! 

 BOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Confusion / Conclusion ...

 The Kerns bottle appears to have a "tooled" finish. And yet it has no "tool marks" on it. Is this possible?

 SPBOB


----------



## beendiggin (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I have dug probably a hundred different tooled and applied crown top bottles over the years, as many of the dumps I'm in are TOC. Many times they are mixed together with early ABM bottles and I have also dug tooled crowns with lightning bails and stoppers.  I agree with Cyber regarding the European type crowns, they do seem to be applied more than tooled. They are usually unembossed and in an olive green color.  

  I don't know how you can identify exactly the year in which a particular bottle was made, unless you have some corroborating glasshouse, merchant, or bottling house records.  It's an interesting time period at the TOC when the crown top came out, because everybody involved with the transition to crowns were in different stages of business.  Some bottlers probably had backstocks of lightning stoppers to use up, some may have wanted to change over but couldn't afford the new tools or machinery, some may have not wanted to see the change happen for different reasons, like distrusting the new closure, or maybe personal loyalty issues, ...and then there were probably others who jumped on the new closure immediately. 

  I guess what I'm saying is that the time period from just before the crown to full acceptance of this new closure was full of overlapping methods for creating the bottle finish and using up the existing lightning stoppers as well as serious financial or trust commitments to a new design.  Which glasshouses were first to change?  How fast did they go from tooled to ABM?  Which bottlers were financially capable? Was there a race to outperform their competition? Was the change regional, did companies closer geographically to Painter get info faster?  Or did Painter have some personal or political arrangements as to who could get the technology first?  Lots of questions and it would make a good history book for those of us interested in this era when bottles transitioned from hand blown to machine made.


----------



## beendiggin (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> The Kerns bottle appears to have a "tooled" finish. And yet it has no "tool marks" on it. Is this possible?


 
 Red would likely know more about this than me, but I'd say it's possible based on the particular glass batch, temperatures, the condition of the lipping tool and the skill of the person with the tool.  Also, I guess it's possible it was refired to smooth it out.  I'd like to hear Red's take on it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

beendiggin ~

 Thank you. I appreciate the time it took for you to type and send your very helpful information. And, I might add, it was extremely "right on" in it's conclusions. You'd think I would settle for a date of circa 1892 to 1900. But I am determined now to find out all I can about it. Cyberdigger was so kind as to send it to me, that I want to make him proud of my interest and efforts to more closely date it. I even sent Bill Lindsey an inquiry with photos, and hope he may have some input as well.

 I'm also hoping that celerycola sees this. He seems to have a way of pulling stuff out of the woodwork when it comes to bottling histories like that of E. L. Kerns. The maker's mark only tells us that it was made prior to about 1904. Any information on the bottler itself would be fantastic. And to hear from Red would be great too. I know he worked for years at a glass plant. 

 Thanks again. I truly appreciate it.

 Bob


----------



## beendiggin (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Are there any particular bottles or information that you are looking for?  I can always keep my eyes open for you.  Sometimes I just find stuff in antique shops, etc.  I really like the history behind the bottles we collect so if I can help solve a mystery, that's a good thing.  I guess long after we're gone many unknowns about bottles and the people who made them will be revealed to the next generations of collectors, providing the research continues.  I don't usually read the soda posts, so excuse me if I missed previous info.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

An additional bit of information for those who are following this, but are still a little confused about the tool marks we have been discussing, would be to point out that these tool marks are typically more visible on the upper neck of the bottle than they are on the lip area itself. If you go back and take another look at the illustration I posted of the finishing tool, you will notice at the bottom that the two end pieces come to points. It was these extension arms that often left the most visible lines or swirls around the neck. Take a close look at what you know to be a BIM bottle prior to about 1905 and you should be able to see what I mean. And to reinterate, the Kerns bottle in question has none of these marks or swirls around the neck, nor on the lip itself.

 SPBOB

 PS ~

 beendiggin ~

 I just saw your reply in the middle of this one. The main focus here is hopefully to find the earliest "Crown-Closure Soda Bottle" known to mankind! (Confirmed). At present the earliest advertising for a crown is a 1896 Hire's ad. Bill Lindsey is convinced (but unable to substaintiate it yet) that this 1896 date is a bit late, and believes someone will eventually find one for around 1893 to 1894. But the search continues.  

 Thanks again,

 Bob


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hello Bob! First of all, you are most certainly very welcome for the little present.. your enthusiasm and appreciation has me all warm and fuzzy!! []
 I read through your posts about it and I want to try and explain about identifying the creation of a tooled finish, which the Kearns bottle has.. sometimes it's what you DON'T see that gives it away.. in this case, the mold seam has been erased by the lip shaping tool, which is why the seem stops, or disappears, along the neck. That patent picture you posted shows the end of the tool coming down to just about the same part of the bottle as where the seam vanishes.. the glass was still red hot and workable when the tool was used, it was clamped over the top of the bottle and twisted to form the lip shape. 
 Now, you see the bubbles in the glass, how they seem to be stretched and twisted in one direction? This is more evidence of the tooling action. There were well trained craftsmen who finished thousands of bottles per day and got pretty dern good at it, so  many tooled tops were quite nicely done. The disappearing seam is always a telltale sign, though.
 In the case of an applied top, it was literally a separate piece of glass glued onto the bottle, and in most cases, the seam was not disturbed by this action, so the seam runs right into the lip. This is the source of confusion fro people who have been told, erroneously, that the lower down on the neck the seam ends, the older the bottle is.. the truth is the opposite..


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

..now to get a confirmed date of manufacture, we will not be able to use this sort of examination, the evidence will be had in advertisements and company records.. somewhere out there is a bona fide 1892 crown top, and I bet you're gonna find it!! []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

cyber ~

 You're right, of course! The bubbles do flow in one direction. In this case to the right. I even read somewhere that most finished applications have a tendecy to flow to the right, simply because most finishers were right-handed. But that an occassional leftward flow may also be found from time to time and, supposedly, done by left-handed finishers. But how true any of this is, I really cannot say. But I do see now 100% that it's a tooled finish and, like you said, done by a true craftsman. But what else would one expect? Surely someone of your stature wouldn't send me a bottle made by an apprentice flunky, now would you?  Lol  []

 So there we have it! The E.L. Kerns bottle has a tooled finish and made sometime between 1892 and 1899. Now all that remains is to find an ad or some other confirming information indicating just exactly how long E.L. Kerns was in operation. And being as I am one individual who loves to speculate, it would truly make my day to discover they closed shop around 1894-95. The earlier I can push that bugger back, the better I like it. But don't worry, I will stick with the facts and not get too crazy about it.

 As for my finding a 1892 crown ... heck, if that happens I will close up shop myself and write that book I've been talking about. I think I'll title it ... "Look What I Found The Other Day."  

 Thanks to all, and especially those like cyberdigger and others who don't think I'm totally crazy to be constantly searching for needles in haystacks. I.E.,  "Earliest ACL" - "Earliest Crown" - "Popeye Soda" - etc; etc. Even I don't know what will be next. But you can bet it'll be something.

 SODA "POOPED-OUT FOR THE TIME BEING" BOB


----------



## beendiggin (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

A thought.........probably not original, however.  There must be a way to find out where the first crown lipping tools were made and who made them.  That might lead to which glasshouse the tool was shipped to and from there, whose bottles were being crowned.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

beendiggin ~

 It's interesting you should mention that. Because doing that very thing in earnest crossed my mind a time or two. That is until I looked into a bit. Man! Talk about "where do I begin"?  All I found on my initial search was patent information. After that I was totally at a loss as where to go from there. Please feel free to look into it if you have any ideas as to where to look. If you or anyone else comes up with a lead or two, I will be happy to follow up and research it further. And you're right! That information should be out there somewhere, and very likely would lead a trail to some bottles.

 Great suggestion!

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

As an afterthought I am reminded about what cyberdigger just mentioned when he said the final answers will likely come from advertising and company records. I especially like the company records aspect. I once read where that information used to be readily available to collectors. But I also read where the Coca Cola Company and others like them had to shut the door on the sort of thing because there were just too many inquires flooding in over the years.

 It wouldn't surprise me that even as we speak, retired and oldtime employees are currently working on books and articles of their own that will eventually answer every question collectors like ourselves could possibly think of. And if/when a book or books of that nature do surface, it will likely cast an entirely new light on things that we can only speculate and dream about at present. So if any of you would-be researchers and writers are following this, please hurry up! Us other oldtimer's ain't gonna live forever!  Lol  []

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Today at an antique mall in Blue Island IL I saw an early and very ornate crown opener. It had a 1.5 inch shield with advertising for Crown Cork & Seal. If it had been in better condition I would have bought it at $38. Not all the lettering was readable.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Super! And if you are still online could you please describe that opener in a little more deail? I'm looking at a website right now that shows photos of 2,620 openers. I tried entering Crown Cork & Seal in their search box, but nothing came up. However, that particular opener may be buried among the others somewhere. And although I hate to disclose this, I have a mirror hanging on the wall behind my desktop, and there is nothing I like better that watching playoff baseball and fooling around on my computer at the same time. The current score is tied at 2 to 2 between Philidelphia and San Francisco. But please don't tell anyone about the mirror part. Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

It's amazing how just the mention of something can open up a whole new ball game. And this time I am not referring to a playoff game. After celerycola spoke of the Crown Cork & Seal company, (which I have researched extensively in the past) I just discovered something entirely new that I apparently had missed before. Which is that the very first crown caps originally had 24 teeth, as opposed to the current count of only 21. Did you know that? I didn't. So the next time you see what you think is an extremely old cap, count the teeth and see what you find. But beware! It will drive you bonkers! But it might just reveal what may very well be one of the first crown soda bottles ever made ... plus a name to go with it.

 Good luck.

 SPBOB


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I would be watching the game but my cable provider is boycotting Fox.. hey Bob, do you own a capping tool?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

No capping tool here ... and no playoff team either. My San Diego Padres bombed out during the final game of the regular season. In fact, they lost to the San Francisco Giants who are in-it-to-win-it right now!

 Bob


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 23, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I still can't believe SD let this season get away.. I'm partial to the Padres because I visited my aunt & uncle from San Carlos in the early 1980's and they brought me to a game.. the lady sitting next to me got hit by a foul ball ..right in the nose.. not much blood, but an indelible memory.. !


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

If anyone doesn't enjoy this website I am providing a link to, I will buy them a root beer. The illustrations will knock your socks off too! And while you're at it, count the teeth on the caps. On Monday I intend to send them an e-mail inquiry (which I should have done ages ago) ans see if they will tell me who the first crown bottler was. It may even have been a "beer" bottle. Imagine that!  []

 SPBOB

 Link :  http://www.bullworks.net/virtual/infopages/crowncork.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Additionally, I am also looking for a larger version of this ad. Perhaps one where the caps can more easily be identified. And if anyone can make out what it says in the upper right hand corner, I would appreciate that too. To me it looks like February 34 J-4 ... but that doesn't make much sense ???

 Thanks,

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Oct 24, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Additionally, I am alsoÂ looking for a larger version of this ad. Perhaps one where the caps can more easily be identified. And if anyone can make out what it says in the upper right hand corner, I would appreciate that too. To me it looksÂ like February 34 J-4 ... but that doesn't make much sense ???
> 
> ...


 That's the cover of a monthly magazine sent to bottler by Crown Cork. The cover is all photos of actual caps. I've had copies of this before.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 24, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Thanks. If you have a larger image of the magazine cover, I sure would like to take a closer look at them caps.

 Also, is the 1908 Crown Cork & Seal bottle opener below anything like the one you saw?  I got the photo from that website I posted.   

 SPBOB


----------



## celerycola (Oct 24, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> celery ~
> 
> ...


 
 The one I saw was more ornate with a larger handle. The butt end had a shield with the embossing and was as large as the opener end. It was obviously an advertising piece for Crown Cork.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 25, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

In a recent post I mentioned my sending Bill Lindsey an e-mail with photos about the E.L. Kerns bottle. In Bill's very enlightening reply that I received today he pointed out a couple of things about the bottle that I had missed. That's what makes Bill the expert and me the novice. All in all, he confirmed the bottle does indeed have a tooled, non-applied finish.  

 Take another look at the closeup of the closure and you will notice where the elongated bubble is seen on both a portion of the neck as well as on the lip itself. This could not have occurred on a closure that was "applied" seperately. Following are Bill's own words that he most generously has allowed me to share here. 

                                                                        ~ * ~

 "Yes, tooled finishes certainly do not always exhibit the horizontal tooling marks similar to turn-mold bottles not always showing the rotation marks on the body/neck. In the case of your soda bottle it could have been refired after tooling to smooth it out; a post-finishing treatment that I think was more common than people realize.
 [/align]Looking at your photo it is indeed a tooled crown style finish (applied crown finishes are very, very uncommon and then mostly seen on foreign - Asian in my experience - bottles) and the glossy appearance indicates that it was likely refired/reheated after tooling. The long skinny bubble (looks like a bubble anyway) that extends from the neck into the finish is prime evidence that the finish was tooled from the glass used to blow the entire bottle and couldn't be an applied finish.[/align] [/align]The transition from applied finishes to tooled varies with the type of bottle one is dealing with but as noted, crown finishes are always tooled on American made bottles in my experience. Here is a link to an article - which is destined to be chapter for an upcoming SHA "bottle book" - that I've already posted on the Historic Bottle Website discussing bottle specific transitions from the two main mouth-blown finishing methods."[/align] [/align]                                                                  ~ * ~ [/align] [/align]Following is the link Bill referred to. Some of it will be familiar reading to some of you, but for others it should open up a whole new world of understanding the techniques of properly dating early crown, as well as other bottles. The line I especially like at this time, and which directly ties in with the E.L. Kerns bottle in question, is this ...[/align] [/align]  
 " ... by the mid-1890s the changeover from Applied Finishes was largely complete, and a very large majority of American-made bottles dating after that time have Tooled Finishes."

 So this doubley confirms the Kerns bottle date at ... "Circa 1900." Just like cyberdigger said in the first place! And who I never doubted for a single minute. But rather who I wanted to impress with my genuine sincerity for sending me the bottle in the first place. Thanks again cyber.

 Please be sure to read Bill Lindsey's entire article. It may soon be in a new publication, but at present is available here for your enjoyment. I promise you won't be disappointed.



*                  "THE FINISHING TOUCH"*
* 
 A Primer on Mouth-Blown Bottle Finishing Methods with an Emphasis on "Applied" vs. "Tooled" Finish Manufacturing.

                                                                     Bill Lindsey
*
                          Author of the _Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website_
*
                                                                Copyright Â© 2010

 Link :  http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/finishingtoucharticle.pdf
 [/align] [/align]                                                          Thanks Bill. You really made my day!
 [/align]*
*                                                                       SODAPOPBOB
 [/align]

*[/align]     

 [/align]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

... but there is still one thing I can't figure out. Let's say there is such a thing as a true 1892 crown soda bottle. (And based on the evidence, I have to believe they exist). Then which of the two is it most likely to have ... (1) An applied finish  (2) A tooled finish ... ?  If the final phase of true applied finishes didn't occur until the the mid-1890s (94-95-96) then it seems logical that a 1892 bottle could possibly have an applied finish.  Right?  I definitely would like to figure this one out. Because if I ever do come across a crown soda with a drip-over lip and a seam that goes clear to the base of that lip, then I would like to know for certain what I'm looking at.

 Bottom-line question ... Were the William Painter era 1892 crown soda bottles applied or tooled?

 I hope someone has the answer, because I don't. 

 Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I sent Bill Lindsey the same question as above, and in his most helpful and generous reply he directed my attention again to his website where he pointed out the following key information that I had previously overlooked. It is referring somewhat specifically to soda and mineral water bottles with crown finishes where it states the following ...

        ... with very few applied finishes being produced on these types after about 1890.

 There is a considerable amount of more information to be gleaned from Bill's site regarding specifics, but with this single sentence it assures us that all pre-1900 crown-closure soda bottles most certainly had tooled finishes.

 I personally consider this new evidence to be a milestone in my ongoing search for the earliest (first) crown-top soda bottles. Which tells me that the Hires root beer bottles discussed previously need to examined closer and presently appear not to have "tooled" finishes. Thus the likelyhood of them being made after about 1895 and not as early as I had previously thought.

 Bottom Line?  Any crown soda from 1892-93 will be BIM and have a tooled finish where the seam terminates on the neck.

        I hope this new information helps those like myself who are on the same quest in search of ... 

                                      ~  THE EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS  ~

                     Thanks again to all, and especially to Bill Lindsey and cyberdigger.

                                                                 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Just for the record here are three examples of early Hires bottles. The one in the center is obviously pre-crown. But I sure would like to take a closer look at the seams on the other two. If anyone has either of the two crown bottles shown here, (or similar ones) please examine them closely and let us hear from you.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB

 Please note:  There is substantial evidence to support that Hires first bottled their product in 1893. But it is equally obvious to me now that their first bottle was certainly not a crown. So the question still remains; When did Hires introduce their first crown bottle?  Pre-1900 or Post-1900? And was it BIM or machine made?


----------



## celerycola (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

The only applied top crown bottles I've seen are the olive green mineral type that were probably made in England. I've seen a number of these that have the dripped glass below the finish.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

celery ~

 Thanks. You are always a good source for reliable and valuable information that I for one appreciate. And your information above falls right in line and supports Bill Lindsey's years of research. If you have one of the bottles you mentioned, please share a closeup of the finish. I have never seen a crown finish that was "applied" and I sure would like to see one, (foreign or otherwise).

 And to clarify my last request regarding the Hires bottles, I wish to emphasize with the ad below that we already know they had a crown by 1896 (Which is the date of the ad). But what I am hoping to see is an actual example of one of these bottle from someones collection. It is not confirmation of it's existance I am looking for, (we already have that) but rather just to see one in the flesh, which I am not sure we have seen yet. I will gladly settle for any Hires bottle that definitely has a disappearing neck seam. I hope this makes sense.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This final post of mine for the time being is for the benifit of everyone, but primarily for celerycola to let him know how much I appreciate his recent contributions. It came about as the result of his suggestion to take a closer look at the Crown Cork & Seal stuff.

 In following up on that suggestion I have focused a considerable amount of my research time lately looking at bottle caps. There are over a thousand of them on e-bay alone, not to mention other sites.

 As you may recall, I recently discovered that early-early crown caps had 24 teeth as opposed to the 21 teeth they have now. I am still not sure when they switched from 24 teeth to 21, but I am working on that aspect even as we speak.

 But I have developed an uncanny ability to look at a cap and almost immediately tell how many teeth it has. However, I cannot teach this technique to anyone, and believe it can only be developed by looking closely at hundreds of caps like I have done lately.

 I bet the majority of people selling caps have no idea there is even a difference. And I also believe that the eventual identification of some of the earliest brands of crown sodas may very well come from this sort of research. The only bummer is, after looking at hundreds of caps, I have yet to find one with 24 teeth. But I just know I will find one eventually and that I will definitely post it here when I do. In the meantime if anyone happens to know or discovers a date when they changed to 24 teeth, please let the rest of us know.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB

 Image from William Painter's patent of 1892 showing 24 teeth.  []


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hey Bob.. I have a few applied crowns buried in boxes ..a couple ambers and a couple olives.. let me see if I can dig them out and get some pics up for ya..


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I know I said my last post was going to be it for awhile (I hate to hog all of the air time) but in response to cyberdigger's last reply, I just gotta say ...

                                        SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS !!!

 Did you know the above word is in dictionaries now? How else do you think I knew how to spell it?

 SPellBOB  []


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Bob you crack me up! I dug out a set of very dark aqua/ambers from Europe.. with applied crowns.. here's a teaser for now.. I'll be back with close-ups in a little while.. I'm sharing the computer with the wife this afternoon..[]


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*





 The short one..




 Other side..




 ..bottom.. 




 ..the medium size one..




 ..other side..




 ..base..




 ..the tall one..




 ..base..

 ..I also found a couple round bottom applied crowns.. these tend to come from England & Ireland:


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

..a little closer..


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

..lots of "glue" oozing out of this one! []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 26, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Cyber ~

 Geez-Louise! I step out of the house for a few hours and come home to find my computer coughing up bottles. Talk about ask and ye shall receive ... you really delivered the goods. Great photos. Those dudes aren't just applied, they're flat-out stuck on. Where do you find stuff like that? They look dug. Surely if anything like that had been done in the states they would be abundant. I've never seen anything like it. Even the few old meds I have don't have applied tops. Except for a hutchinson soda I picked up awhile back, the Kerns bottle you sent me is still the oldest bottle in my collection ... and now one of my favorites. At least I know what a true applied crown looks like now. The ones I've seen on the internet were all meds, bitters, etc.

 Thanks for taking the time to photograph - download - upload and post. I know what all of that involves and commend you for it.

 And now back to counting teeth on bottle caps. Pretty soon my brain will be dripping like one of your bottles. [:-]

 Bob


----------



## cyberdigger (Oct 27, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

How could I resist posting for you! I tell ya, your enthusiasm is downright contagious!! [] I enjoy the subject matter, too.. 

 Yes, I dug at least most of them.. I need to put "at least" in there because sometimes I buy them at yard sales and flea mkts if they are cheap, for further study at home, you know.. but I excavated many of them from a Victorian-era seaside resort garbage dump on the Jersey shore. The European bottle presence was palpable in that dump.. fancy imports, like.. ..now for the record, of all the applied crowns I have seen, I never saw a confirmed American made example.. that would be something _really_ special, if you ask me.. now Bob, you better get yourself a funnel and a pontilled pitcher to catch that brain dribble.. cause there's more to come! []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 27, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I have been searching in vain for a copy of this book ...

                                                    "Story of the Crown Cork"

 The only thing I've found so far was listed for $210.00. Which is a lot more than I wish to pay at this time. Help! If you have a copy or know where I can get one fairly cheap (ratty condition okay) please let me know.

 Thanks.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 27, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I am also searching for one of these Moxie bottle caps. It's hard to determine from the photo, but from what I know about it so far it may be a 24-pointer.

 Thanks again.

 SPBOB


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 27, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I learned a couple of interesting things about Moxie today. One of which is who the man on the cap is.

*Augustin Thompson was born on November 25, 1835 in Union, Maine. He grew up on the family farm, and when the Civil War erupted, he enlisted in the Union Army with some buddies. He must have been a pretty bad dude, because he went from private to Lieut. Colonel by the end of the war. After the war he enrolled in medical school and graduated from Hahneman Hospital in Philadelphia.*

*Once he graduated he setup practice in Lowell, MA and was **soon developing and offering patent medicines to supplement his medical practices income. Patent medicines were extremely popular at the time, and had made millionaires of several entrepreneurs (and at that time a million dollars really meant something). In fact, Lowell, MA was already home to three very popular patent medicines, and in 1876 Lowell became home to a fourth -- Moxie.*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Oct 27, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I also learned from the ad below that Moxie was definitely using a crown cap in 1898. (I apologize if this is a second confirmation). But the image I know is a first. And please note the ad is prior to Teddy Roosevelt becoming President which wasn't until 1901 thru 1909.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This from the Moxie Encyclopedia, by Q. David Bowers
 "Early Moxie bottles were sealed with.......Beginning the early 1890's the cork lined metal caps made by.... By July 1, 1898, the use of this format on new bottles was exclusive, and The Moxie Nerve Food Company of New England noted that after that date no refunds would be given on empty bottles of any other style.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Also, The Food and Drug Act gave them the OK to continue with Nerve Food. Law suites that were coming up in other companies in 1908 and 1909 caused them to consider getting rid of it do to it being to close to Nerve Tonic and others. The discontinuation appeared voluntary to avoid legal action. Late 1909 or early 1910 is when it appeared to become simply The Moxie Company.


----------



## celerycola (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> ORIGINAL:  cowseatmaize
> 
> Also, The Food and Drug Act gave them the OK to continue with Nerve Food. Law suites that were coming up in other companies in 1908 and 1909 caused them to consider getting rid of it do to it being to close to Nerve Tonic and others. The discontinuation appeared voluntary to avoid legal action. Late 1909 or early 1910 is when it appeared to become simply The Moxie Company.


 Dr. Brown's Celery Tonic didn't officially become Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray until the 1930's. I have an ad from a distributor still using "Tonic" into the 1950's.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

True, I'm not so sure it was the word food or tonic that was ever in question. I think the word "nerve" was to close to indicating a medical condition. After the F&DA it was just the wording that got you prosecuted. Selling  something that seamed to indicate medicine when it wasn't. False  advertising I guess. It really wasn't until the Harrison act of 1914?, I'll have to look that up again, before it became clearer of the use of certain chemicals such as opiates and others that it was prohibited over the counter. Most of that act was a revenue bill, not a true prohibition. Until then I believe cocaine et al was still readily available from druggists that were willing to sell it. The temperance movement had more to do with removing such things than the drug act. Most of it was voluntary rather than stating it contained the stuff. 
 Short and possibly mostly correct.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Until just now I never Googled the words "Nerve Tonic." However, I wasn't surprised by the answer that came up. I think most of us already assumed that cocaine was the base ingredient to most of these so called "remedies" that were supposed to cure everything from headaches to heartache. Even during the cowboy days, snake oil peddlers were using such "cure-alls" known as laudanum which was nothing more than a form of opium. So its no wonder that the practice continued for many years to follow. After all, what else was available until the creation of aspirin?

 I'm not sure that another repeat of the Coca Cola story is necessary here, but it might help to remind us of just what they were actually serving over fountain and pharmacy counters way back when.







 Invented in May 1886 by Doctor John Pemberton, a pharmacist from Georgia, Coca-Cola was originally marketed as a tonic, containing extracts of both cocaine and of the caffeine-rich kola nut. The cocaine additive was simply a "valuable tonic with nerve stimulant," with sugar being added for extra sweetening. Described as a "delicious, exhilarating, refreshing and invigorating soda-fountain beverage but also as the ideal temperance drink," Coca-Cola was so good that it was, well, "addictive."[/align]






 And here's something else I stumbled onto while searching for the definition of "nerve tonic," and which I had never seen before. Whether it's the true original Coca Cola formula or not, I honestly can't say. But whoever wrote this certainly thinks it is ... thus the word "Purported."


 Purported secret recipes
 Pemberton recipe
 This recipe is attributed to a diary owned by Coca-Cola inventor, John S. Pemberton, just before his death in 1888. (U.S. measures).[11]
 [ul][*]Ingredients: 
 [ul][*]1 oz (28 g) caffeine citrate
 [*]3 oz (85 g) citric acid
 [*]1 US fl oz (30 ml; 1 imp fl oz) vanilla extract
 [*]1 US qt (946 ml; 33 imp fl oz) lime juice
 [*]2.5 oz (71 g) "flavoring," I.e., "Merchandise 7X"
 [*]30 lb (14 kg) sugar
 [*]4 US fl oz (118.3 ml; 4.2 imp fl oz) powder extract of cocaine (decocainized flavor essence of the coca leaf)
 [*]2.5 US gal (9.5 l; 2.1 imp gal) water
 [*]caramel sufficient [/ul]
 [*]"Mix caffeine acid and lime juice in 1 quart boiling water add vanilla and flavoring when cool."
 [*]Flavoring (Merchandise 7X): 
 [ul][*]80 oil orange
 [*]40 oil cinnamon
 [*]120 oil lemon
 [*]20 oil coriander
 [*]40 oil nutmeg
 [*]40 oil neroli
 [*]1 US qt (946 ml; 33 imp fl oz) alcohol [/ul]
 [*]"Let stand 24 hours." [/ul]
 This recipe does not specify when or how the ingredients are mixed, or the flavoring oil quantity units of measure (though it implies that the "Merchandise 7X" was mixed first). This was common in recipes at the time, as it was assumed that preparers knew the method.[/align] 








  [/align]


----------



## coboltmoon (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

This was an old advertisement paid by Coca-Cola that was in a 1916 medicinal journal.  The NH journal also had a great Moxie ad but did not get a pic of it.  Coke claimed no Cocaine in Coca Cola.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Hmmm ... It seems that times may not have changed as much as I previously thought. Here's a product that is currently on the market and apparently can be purchased at your local drug store. I wonder if the person shown in this ad is related to John S. Pemberton?  Lol  []


----------



## coboltmoon (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Same Journal had this Cocaine ad.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> (decocainized flavor essence of the coca leaf)


 Both were known for centuries in natural form. Aspirin has been around since the 1850's. Cocaine could have been substituted but aspirin is non addictive. I think the preparers knew that. Plus aspirin didn't give you a "rush". Freud and others were hooked by it's sensation and the medical community wasn't ready to say it was dangerous. It wasn't until the Collier articles came out around 1905 that it was even noticed by the general public.

 The decoainized was much later than 1888 I would think. That is what came in 1910+ years because of the temperance movement and the PF&D act. More like the 0's-10's I would guess and maybe still today for the flavor. I've been wrong before and may be now. Yes, I do know that the temperance movement was much earlier than 1900.
 I guess the article that was from should state the year of entry and who is in possession or we'll still continue the be clouded in mystery until it get historically authenticated.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I agree that the controversy continues and that we may never know for sure. But you would think by now that someone-somewhere-sometime would have found and tested an unopened bottle of pre-1900 Coca Cola and been able to determine whether or not it did or did not in fact contain cocaine. I was just researching this possibility, but came up empty handed. But I did find this ... which most of us, myself included, have seen before from Wikipedia.

 Coca Cola â€” cocaine
 Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose; in 1891, Candler claimed his formula (altered extensively from Pemberton's original) contained only a tenth of this amount. Coca-Cola did once contain an estimated nine milligrams of cocaine per glass, but in 1903 it was removed. Coca-Cola still contains coca flavoring. After 1904, instead of using fresh leaves, Coca-Cola started using "spent" leaves â€” the leftovers of the cocaine-extraction process with cocaine trace levels left over at a molecular level. To this day, Coca-Cola uses as an ingredient a cocaine-free coca leaf extract prepared at a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey.
 In the United States, Stepan Company is the only manufacturing plant authorized by the Federal Government to import and process the coca plant, which it obtains mainly from Peru and, to a lesser extent, Bolivia. Besides producing the coca flavoring agent for Coca-Cola, Stepan Company extracts cocaine from the coca leaves, which it sells to Mallinckrodt, a St. Louis, Missouri pharmaceutical manufacturer that is the only company in the United States licensed to purify cocaine for medicinal use.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

And now back to Moxie and early crown-closure soda bottles ...

 Just a couple of weeks ago I was in an antique shop and saw a very, very early Moxie cardboard cutout store display with that Fred Archer guy on it. It was slightly browned (foxed) around the edges but otherwise in great shape. I won't mention just now how much they were asking for it, but after doing some reseach I discovered that most of these types of Moxie advertising items are quite rare and often valued into the hundreds of dollars.

 Question :  Are there any Moxie experts out there who are familiar with these signs and know if they are in fact worth as much as I hope they are?  If so I am going back today and buy it. (Providing it's still there, of course).

 Thanks

 SPBOB


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> But you would think by now that someone-somewhere-sometime would have found and tested an unopened bottle of pre-1900 Coca Cola


 Rest assured, if I find one it will go straight out for analysis. I won't contact Atlanta or any auction house. This mystery needs to be solved and no amount of money could ever sway my decision process.
 I just hope I can trust the company I send it to.[][][]

 I just figured it out!! The word that begins with a term used for a bodily part in the posterior in the anatomy. I always wondered why the **** was in analysis.


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

analcite, analecta, analemma, analeptics, anal-expulsive, analgesia, anal-retentive.
 Kind of absurd, really.I didn't count the plurals, tenses ect.


----------



## celerycola (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Coca-Cola claimed in U S Federal Court that they used "de-cocainized" coca leaf exclusively starting in 1902. The government suit against Coke in 1910 was based on the presence of caffeine.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

cowseatmaize ~

 I ran into the same problem in the past with some of the same words. But since this is a "Family" website I have to agree to some extent. (Yeah, right! But how many kids do we know of who have ever posted a single reply here?)  []  

 Anyhoo ... below are examples from my 2003 Soda Pop book showing the Moxie sign that I have my eye on. And even though they are shown here in black and white, the one in question is colored. I'm not sure which of the upper two it is, but I do know its not the lower one from the 1950s that depicts a different individual.

 However, I also just discovered that these cardboard signs are being reproduced, and that one is on e-bay right now. So how does an average collector like myself distinguish the difference between an original and a fake?

 HELP !!!

 Safe e-bay link to "Fake" Moxie sign :   

http://cgi.ebay.com/Drink-MOXIE-Never-STICKY-SWEET-Paper-Adv-Sign-REPRO-/350413871625?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51964b5a09[/align] [/align]Thanks[/align] [/align]SPBOB
 [/align]
 {Scanned from my Soda Pop book}


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

P.S. ~

 The fake one on e-bay is like the 1950s one in the book. So if I can get the one I'm looking at for under $50.00 ... should I and would you buy it on the likelyhood that its original?

 Thanks

 Bob


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*



> Coca-Cola claimed in U S Federal Court that they used "de-cocainized" coca leaf exclusively starting in 1902. The government suit against Coke in 1910 was based on the presence of caffeine.


 That's interesting! 
 Unfortunately it doesn't answer the question at hand. It sounds like there may be an admission than no one could claim the presence of cocaine but there was no proof it wasn't there. Do you have the file?


----------



## cowseatmaize (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

"This is a newer collectible. Great for any collection! "
 Run away!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Final P.S. for the time being. I'm getting ready to leave and buy that dang sign, or at least go look at it if its still there. I can't stand not knowing if I stumbled onto a true "find" or not. If I suspect its original I will take my chances and fully research it later. After all, its only money! Right?

 I also want to take this opportunity to acknowledge "cowseatmaize's" input regarding the fact that apirin has been around since the mid 1800s. Thanks!  I should have researched that first.  [8|]

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I will attempt to make this as brief and painless as possible. I went to the antique shop (mall) where I saw the Moxie sign and it turns out that I know the dealer whose display case the sign was in. She collects Hopalong Cassidy stuff and I sold her a few items several years ago. I also discovered she rents display cases all over the city. Anyway, she already sold the Moxie sign about a month ago, which was right after I initially saw it. She sold it for $30.00. And even though she had done a "little" research on it about a year ago when she first aquired it, (and was able to determine that it was in fact original, which is another story all together) she said she never was able to come up with a true value on it and just priced it based on "what she had invested in it" (about $10.00) and then priced and sold it accordingly.

 I had my book in the car, and even though I am not certain myself if the values listed are accurate or not, I showed it to her anyway. She had treated me fairly in the past and I saw no reason not to return the favor by showing her what the book had to say about the sign. She immediately recognized the sign in my book as being the c. 1911 one. She said she remembers this because during her research the one she had was described as the "high tie" example vs the "low tie" example. See the photo I posted and you will realize what she meant by the location of Fred Archer's tie in relation to the words "Drink Moxie." I never knew this before and didn't even catch it myself until she pointed it out to me. Otherwise they are the same exact dimensions and similar in many respects.

 Bottom line?  

 She was shocked by the value stated in the book, and said in the furture she is going to contact me first whenever she has a soda pop related item she needs help identifying. She is a very nice lady in her late 60s, and said I qualify for major discounts on future purchases should she ever have something I am interested in purchasing. So I suppose that is one consolation for what was otherwise a "wild goose chase."  

 Lesson learned?  

 I should have bought it when I saw it!

 Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 31, 2010)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

To conclude my discussion on the Moxie sign, I wanted to share this photo and text I came across from a 2007 auction archives. Pictured is the same die-cut sign I that "almost" had. The next time something like this occurs I am going to shoot first and ask questions later.  []   (Plus, I said Fred Archer, when in fact it is "Frank.")

 SPBOB

 {Text From Auction Archives}

 Lot #10099 [/align]Moxie/Frank Archer Chromolithograph Die-cut Advertising.[/align]Sold For:  $150.00  October 2007 
 Moxie/Frank Archer Chromolithograph Die-cut Advertising Display Card, Framed.[/align][/align]

 {Image From Auction Archives}


----------



## Wheelah23 (Jun 10, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I remembered this thread and decided to resurrect it after I saw the following bottle in my eBay travels. This would seem to be a very early crown top, and it is also 100% confirmed to be from 1895. Everything about it would make sense with an 1895 date. That diagonal script embossing seemed to be very popular with many bottlers around the TOC time period.  Here's the listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-SODA-BOTTLE-1895-MURDOCK-FREEMAN-Portland-/400222093049?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2f187ef9#ht_3463wt_905

 Notice the 1895 date on the heel...






 I've also dug a lot of tooled crowns in a TOC dump I frequent. It seems that they coexisted quite peacefully with blob tops for a while. A local soda bottler, J.W. Ransley, seems to have been using blobs and crowns around the same time, and serves as a good case study. They started business in the 1880's, and went until either 1910 or 1916. In 1910, they were advertising some stuff for sale in the "American Bottler" magazine,:

 "50 gross Cork Wired Quart Soda Bottles. Rotary Filler and Sirup Filler in fine order. Write us quick. J.W. Ransley & Son Co., East Orange, N.J."

 They also sold the rest of their property according to this Dec. 31, 1915 NY Times ad. Wouldn't I have liked to have been there...

 "*AUCTION SALE*
 The Soda Manufacturing Plant
 Formerly J.W. Ransley & Sons,
 34 Sterling St., East Orange, N.J.
 Consisting of machinery, tanks, syphons,
 bottles, auto truck, block tin, wagons, etc.,
 will take place at the above address on
*Tuesday, Jan. 4th, 1916, 11 A. M.*
 WATCH FURTHER ANNOUNCEMENT.
*H. GOLD, Auctioneer,*
 Phone 6612 Market.​ 
 In this group shot, you can see a bunch of bottles from the firm. I think the changeover from "J.W. Ransley" to "J.W. Ransley & Son" took place around the very   early 1900s. 










 This billhead from 1897 says "J.W. Ransley", without the "& Son" so this confirms three things:
 [ul]
 [*] The changeover to "& Son" came after 1897, but I am unsure of exactly when. I suspect 1903, due to some other information.
 [*] After the changeover, the firm continued to use both blobs and crowns with the "& Son" embossing. Why this is true, the world may never know. The crowns with the "& Son" are very similar to:
 [*] The crown embossed without the "& Son". It definitely is before the time they incorporated, but probably not by much, because of its distinct similarity to the crowns embossed with the "& Son".
 [/ul]

 Looking through my files, I also found another tidbit: This is from another NY Times newspaper list from March 4th, 1903. It is a list of various companies that incorporated in the tri-state area, assumedly in that year. It says:

 "*INCORPORATED IN NEW JERSEY*
 J.W. Ransley & Son Company, to manufacture mineral waters; capital, $200,000. Incorporators --
 J.W. Ransley, William Ransley, and William Deas.​"

 The bottles I have may or may not be earlier than 1903: who's to say they didn't go by "J.W. Ransley & Son" before they officially incorporated under that name? 

 Half the fun of bottle collecting is researching them, and I can say that this researching was indeed fun.


----------



## Sodasandbeers (Jun 10, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Found these directory listing in the Oranges Directory:

 1881 Ransley, John W., clk, 196 Water

 1886 Ransley, John W., mineral waters, Main n Sterling E. O.; Gpo

 1888 Ransley John W., mineral waters, 45 Main, E. O.

 1890 RANSLEY JOHN W., mineral waters, 34 Sterling, E.O.
 1890 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, E.O.
 1890 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, E.O.

 1891 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1891 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1891 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, EO

 1892 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1892 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1892 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, EO

 1893 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1893 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1893 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, EO

 1895 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1895 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1895 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, EO

 1896 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1896 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1896 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W & Son 34 Sterling, EO

 1897 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO
 1897 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO
 1897 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W & Son 34 Sterling, EO

 1900 Ransley John W, Ransley & Son, 34 Sterling, EO


----------



## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Wheelah23 ~

 Incredible collection of Ransley bottles you have there. I wish I knew more about them, but the truth is they are new to me. Tod's list is great too, and should help immensely.

 The Murdock & Freeman bottles were discussed about a year ago on a seperate thread I did regarding this subject. Since then I was able to acquire one on e-bay and paid about $20.00 for it. And you are right about the date. The Murdock & Freeman crowns have been determined to be the earliest known examples of a soda bottles with that type of closure/finish. It was first brought to light by member Sam_MaineBottles on April 22, 2010, and was confirmed by a national bottle research organization shotrtly afterwards. I would like nothing better than to see one of your Ransley crowns pre-date 1895. But the tricky part is figuring out how to confirm it. The majority of turn-of-the-century soda bottles are not embossed with a date like the Murdock & Freeman's are, and there is no sure-fire method I know of to accurately date them.

 Here is a link that will take you directly to the thread where the Murdock & Freeman bottles are discussed.  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-304119/mpage-4/key-/tm.htm  By the way, the "&" between Murdock and Freeman looks like a "V", which confused me for awhile. But it was brought to my attention that it is definitely a "&"

 Please let us know if you come up with anything conclusive on your Ransley bottles, and I will do the same as I intend to research them also. Thanks a million for the lead, and especially for sharing it with everyone concerned.

 Bob

 [ Two Murdock & Freeman bottles side by side - one crown - one non crown - transition 1895 ]


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## Wheelah23 (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Tod seems to have really helped this operation. He's given me some great information regarding the company.

 This information seems especially helpful in the quest for a date of the crown tops:

 "1895 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO 
 1895 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO 
 1895 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W, 34 Sterling, EO 

 1896 Ransley John W, mineral waters, 34 Sterling, EO 
 1896 Ransley William, clerk, 34 Sterling, EO 
 1896 MINERAL WATERS Ransley John W & Son 34 Sterling, EO "

 This seems to indicate the firm changing names in 1895-1896. That means my 1903 date was wrong. It seems the firm went by "J.W. Ransley & Son" 8 years before they officially incorporated under that name in 1903. Thus, the crown without the "& Son" dates before the 1895-1896 date when the name changed. We can only say this tentatively, because the company might have waited to order another set of bottles. But this seems unlikely, due to the obviously numerous different mold variations the company used. Because of this, I think the "& Son" was added to the bottles very soon after the name change, which means the one without it was before the change. In other words, probably around 1895-1896.

 In reference to the billhead, Tod said: 

 "Often paper invoices were used after a name change and until the old stock ran out.  That may explain the 1897 invoice." This would also make sense, given that we now know "& Son" was added in 1895. 

 More research is obviously needed, but I'm now leaning towards an earlier date for these crowns. 1896 is almost certain, with a strong possibility of one being 1895.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Wheelah ~

 At first glance I was a little confused, but I am starting to follow your drift now, and you may very well be hot on the trail to something. By the way, is the bottle laying on it's side a true crown or some other closure? I can't quite make it out and it looks a little odd.

 Thanks

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Also ...

 Have you determined yet if the Ransley crowns are machine made or hand blown in molds? That would definitely be a clue to their age.

 SPBOB


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## Wheelah23 (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

All the Ransley bottles are BIM. The company never survived into the ABM age. While the ABM first came into use in 1905 or so, it could only be used for wide mouthed bottles like jars and food bottles. It wasn't until around 1913 that it could be used for narrow-necked bottles like sodas. 

 The crowns are all very crude, with lots of bubbles, and one is even whittled. The age of the dump I pulled them from ranges from the mid 1880's to no later than maybe 1910. I have pulled a few ABM bottles out of it, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and all are wide-mouthed jars.

 The 7 oz. bottle is a blob. It's the only Ransley I know that used the Baltimore Loop closure. That is indicated by the groove on the inside of the blob mouth. I dug the bottom half of a 7 oz. just like it in my dump, except that one had the "& Son" on it. It's anyone's guess whether it is a blob or crown, but I'm leaning toward crown. 

 I'm going digging today, so hopefully I'll uncover something conclusive.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

Wheelah23 ~  Note:  I see we are posting at the same time. I haven't read yours yet but will post mine anyway. Also, you may get an argument or two from other members about machine made crowns not being available until 1913. This may be the majority rule, but there are numerous exceptions that I'm sure others will be able to produce. ???

 In your inital reply you mentioned that bottles with diagonal script seemed to be popular on turn of the century bottles. The bottles shown below are three such examples that I have. However, only two of the are TOC. One is circa 1915. From left to right they are as follows ...

 1.  Murdock & Freeman - 1895 - No makers mark. - BIM
 2.  E.L Kerns - w/ stag head - Unconfirmed date, but likely circa 1900 - Makers Mark / E.H.E. Co. = Edward H Everett Co., Newark, Ohio / 1880-1904 - BIM
 3.  Yoffe Brothers - Circa 1915 - Unconfirmed makers mark with C in a star within a circle - Possible Coshocton Glass Co., Coshocton, Ohio. - Machine made - Has contents 10 1/2 Fluid Oz. - The fact that it is machine made and has the contents on it likely dates it to circa 1915 because that was about the time when the Gould Admentent to the 1906 Food and Drug Act went into effect requiring that bottles and all other food and drug packaging have the contents clearly maked on them.

 Typically, the simplest method of identifying a machine made bottle is when the mold seam goes all the way up and onto the very lip of the crown. Machine made bottles typically have a starting date of about 1905/1906.

 On the very lip of the closures below notice the slight difference between the M&F and the Yoffe Bros. The M&F lip slopes somewhat and is cruder. The Yoffe Bros. is somewhat flatter and more uniformed. This may serve as another clue when attempting to distinguish the older bottle from the newer.  

 SPBOB

 [ M&F 1895 - E.L. Kerns circa 1900 - Yoffe Bros. circa 1915 ]


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## Sodasandbeers (Jun 11, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I believe this is the earliest crown, although I cannot prove it:

Earliest Crown

 These bottles also occur with blob tops and the crowns are applied and not swiped.  Note that they are crudely applied and misshapen.  Since Painter was from Baltimore it makes sense that he sold these locally before going national.  There are a lot of beer bottles from Baltimore that date prior to 1899 when most of the Breweries consolidated into a Trust called the Maryland Brewing Co. Blob top bottles from Baltimore are actually not common after 1900.  Most of the bottles made by the Ohio Bottle Co. (1904-1905) in Baltimore are crowns and "all" of the bottles made by the American Bottle Co (1905+) are crowns.

 As far as ABM crowns go, Edward H. Everett aquired the exclusive right to manufacture soda and beer bottle with Owens machine in about 1904 and these rights were assigned to the American Bottle Co. in 1906.


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## Wheelah23 (Jun 12, 2011)

*RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS*

I'd say that's the crudest crown I've ever seen. I know applied crowns exist, but I've never seen one that is definitely American. Nice work!


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