# Applied color labels (acl) - hand painted labels & machines



## SODABOB (Sep 1, 2018)

Howdy

I haven't been around for a while (computer/wifi problems-long story) but was recently involved in a thread that sparked my interest - which consequently inspired me to start this new thread. What I'd like to take a look at (with your help) involves two primary topics that I have just now started to research in depth. They are ... 

1.  In search of the possible existence of very early (1930? to 1935?) "*hand painted*" ACL bottles, which I found a reference to recently, but never knew existed. And still not sure if they exist - hence the reason for this thread.

2.  The first/earliest ACL labeling "*machines*" 

I'll be back with more tomorrow, and hope this will be a fun and informative discussion. 

Bob


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## SODABOB (Sep 2, 2018)

For starters, I'd like to point out that my availability to the Internet is limited these days (poor wifi connection), and that I won't be able to devote as much time to the necessary research as I used to do (sometime 8+ hours a day) but will do my best to keep things moving.  

With that said, the first thing I'd like to focus on is the source where I found a reference to 'hand-painted' ACL bottles. The following link will take you to a site where you'll find an article by Julian Harrison Toulouse* published in 1939. The article appeared in a periodical called the ... 

"First Annual Blue Book of the National Carborator and Bottler"

*Toulouse later (1971) published the 624 page book "Bottle Makers And Their Marks," that many of us are familiar with, and is considered the most comprehensive book of its kind. 

http://www.bottlebooks.com/acl%201937/bottles_applied_color_labels.htm

Notice in the fourth paragraph where Toulouse says ...
[FONT=&amp]
"While these colors may be painted on bottles by hand, and frequently were in the early days of this type of decoration, the present generally used method involves employment of silk screen of very fine mesh."

Important note:  It has been confirmed that the first ACLs were on Milk Bottles as early as 1931. And the earliest confirmed ACL soda bottle was in 1934 - "Jumbo - A Super Cola" 

However, its also possible that some of those so called "hand-painted" bottles might have been soda bottles. And I suppose the only way to determine that is to ...

1.  Take a close look at some of the earliest ACL soda bottles.

2.  Invite members to take a close look at any early ACL soda bottles in their collections that that might qualify as having been "hand-painted" as opposed to silk-screened. 

Note:  I can't say for certain at the moment, but suspect that if any hand-painted soda bottles exist that they will be lettering only and not contain any detailed graphics. 

(To be continued)


[/FONT]



[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]


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## SODABOB (Sep 2, 2018)

Continuing with a little more reading, then I'll will post some pictures of some early acls. These snippets are from Rick Sweeney's 2002 book ...


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## SODABOB (Sep 2, 2018)

We'll discuss these bottles in more detail later, but I can tell you that both the images and dates were contributed by forum members several years ago. At present they are considered some the earliest acl soda bottles known.


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## iggyworf (Sep 2, 2018)

Great to hear from you Bob. Look forward to your research and hope to help in any way I can.


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## SODABOB (Sep 2, 2018)

But first and foremost we need to take a close look at some early ACL/Pyro *milk* bottles. Please note that Julian Toulouse didn't necessarily say hand-painted "soda" bottles in his article, but rather, "bottles" in general. And because we know that milk bottles were the first to use ACL labels, that's probably a good place to start. 

This first image is of a "Kolb's" milk bottle and has been confirmed to have been made by the "Thatcher Glass Company" in *1934*. But whether its a "hand-painted" label, I can't say at the moment. Nor can I say if the so-called hand-painted bottles were done by the bottlers themselves or by glass manufactures. 

[Kolb's - 1934]

 

This next one I found at random - but thought it was interesting because it has the dairies name embossed on one side of the bottle and an ACL label on the other side - possibly suggesting an earlier bottle that was re-purposed. Unfortunately there was no date mentioned regarding this particular bottle. 

Does the ACL label look hand-painted to you? 

[ White Clover Dairy ]






Question(s) of the day ...

1.  Did Toulouse mean hand-painted with a paint *brush*?

or ... 

2.  Hand-painted by some other means of application such as a *stencil*?


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## SODABOB (Sep 2, 2018)

iggyworf said:


> Great to hear from you Bob. Look forward to your research and hope to help in any way I can.



Gracias' Amigo 

I just hope my computer/wifi problems don't get in the way - but so far, so good


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## Screwtop (Sep 2, 2018)

Here is a few in the group I found over a two month period.


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## Canadacan (Sep 3, 2018)

Interesting topic Bob!...hope all is well! I don't think any of my Canadian bottles are quite early enough to qualify as hand painted, 1938 being the earliest dateable bottle I have, I may have one ACL Whistle bottle that is a tad earlier but has no date. Odd thing on it was that the process used two colors and the blue came up semi transparent! Definitely not hand painted.


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## bottle-bud (Sep 3, 2018)

Very interesting story Sodabob, I would think the hand painting would have been done with a stencil rather than just a brush. I do realize that there are talented people out there that could perhaps paint a label on a bottle simply using a brush, but to me that would be too time consuming, a stencil would be much faster.
A far as your White Clover bottle goes it is too close for me to tell if it is hand painted or ACL
Canadacan, That Whistle bottle is a gem, haven't seen one like that before!


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I've stumbled onto something that can only be described as ...




However, I think you'll find it interesting. I'll post what I'm referring to just as soon as I get my ducks in a row.


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

*First Things First / Jumping to Conclusions

*The following link is to a thread (one of my first) that I started in 2010 - and was last posted to in 2017. Its quite long and will require considerable time to read through it. Its end conclusion regarding the earliest known ACL soda bottle came from member Moribous_fod. As far as I know, the "Jumbo - A Super Cola" is still the earliest known and confirmed ACL soda bottle. 

Link ...

"EARLIEST ACL SODA BOTTLE(S)" 

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?300938-EARLIEST-ACL-SODA-BOTTLE(S)

(Continued next page)


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Next we have the following images from the thread - which confirmed the "Jumbo - A Super Cola" as the earliest known ACL soda bottle ... 

Morb's bottle ... 

[Front]



[Close up of ACL label]





[Base - with Owens-Illinois mark for 1934]


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Next up we have a couple of newspaper ads ... 

Kingsport Times - Kingsport, Tennessee

[Article - September 20, 1934]


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Cropped portion of article where we see the word "Fused" which suggest the ACL labeling process had advanced beyond the so called "hand-painted" days ...

 

Next up we have an advertisement from the next day ... same newspaper ...


[September 21, 1934]



Cropped lower-right portion of ad where we see that the coupon expires on October 1, 1934



(Much more to follow - please stand by)


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Because the previous evidence seems to confirm the "Jumbo - A Super Cola" bottle with the ACL label as having been introduced in 1934, and because no earlier ACL soda bottle has ever surfaced that I'm aware of, I'm jumping to the conclusion that its possible, and even likely, to be one of, if not the very first ACL soda bottle ever produced. Only with time will we know for certain.  

Which brings me to this "Jumbo - A Super Cola" bottle I found and purchased on eBay just this morning. (What a coincidence) Check it out. Here's the link. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/263378233116?rmvSB=true



Even though its not in the greatest shape, notice in the description where the seller desribes it as being from the "1960s."  Now compare the base of Morb's bottle to the one I bought on eBay. I'll know for certain in a few days, but the two bases sure look similar, and I'm hoping the one I bought has a 4 to the right of the Owens-Illinois mark

Here's the pics from eBay ...

[Front]

View attachment 184157

[Close up of faded acl label]

View attachment 184158

[Base of eBay bottle]

View attachment 184159

[Base of Morb's bottle for comparison]

View attachment 184160


(More to follow)


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## iggyworf (Sep 3, 2018)

That sorta looks like a 4 for 1934 on your bottle Bob!


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

iggyworf said:


> That sorta looks like a 4 for 1934 on your bottle Bob!



Rich:

I agree - that's the main reason I bought it - at least I'm hoping its a 4 - if so, it will make for some good research material. I'll let you know when it arrives. 


By the way, I'm not through with my "jumping to conclusions" - stand by for what follows ...


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

The conclusion I'm jumping to is that the earliest, and possibly only so called hand-painted bottles were *milk bottles*. And that the Jumbo Cola label was applied with some type of silk-screen machine and not hand painted. Check out this article I found by the Bottle Research Group (BRG) regarding milk bottle rim-codes. 

Note:  Over the years I have communicated with several members of the group, and know Carol Serr personally. She lives in the San Diego area and I saw her last June at the Antique Bottle Collectors annual sale. I sent Carol an email yesterday and hope to hear from her soon. 

In the meantime, check out this pdf file I copy/pasted the following from. Notice the part about the first Owens-Illinois ACLs and especially the part about the Brant Rancho / Canoga Park milk bottle ...

https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/rimcodesarticle.pdf


One of the Illinois-Pacific bottles is particularly
interesting. It has a rim code of “2
/ 1” and a circular plate-mold label for Brant
Rancho, Owensmouth, California. The opposite
face has an applied color label—the only
example of such a label found on a rim-code
bottle—with similar information, but this label
locates the dairy in Canoga Park. The change
in location reflects the fact that Owensmouth
changed its name to Canoga Park on 1 March
1931 (Van Nuys News 1931).  Thus both t he
rim code and the embossing should predate the
applied color label.  Presence of a color label
is initially confusing since the technology was
not introduced until the mid-1930s.
Owens-Illinois introduced applied color labels
on milk bottles beginning in mid-1933, offering
them only from its Huntington, West Virginia,
f a c t o r y.  Th e  p r o c e s s  wa s  e x p a n d e d  t o  t h e
Columbus, Ohio, factory in 1934 and then to
other plants (Milk Dealer 1933; Modern Packaging
1948: 122) .  Color- labeled bottles were
available from Owens-Illinois California plants
(i ncl udi ng t he former Il l i noi s-Paci fi c pl ant s)
beginning in fall 1934 and were heavily advertised
by 1935 (California Milk News 1934; Los
Angeles Times 1935; Milk Dealer 1935; Owens-Illinois
Glass Company 1935). the important point here is that color labels
could be applied to old bottl es.  In fact ,  the
Owens-Illinois San Francisco factories did this
experimentally in 1936, inviting local dairies to
send in embossed bottles to have color labels
applied to the opposite side (Milk Dealer 1936).
It is quite possible that the Los Angeles plants
did the same. Such a practice would result in 
bottles with dual-embossed and color labels, and
the present specimen seems to be an obvious
example of this process.


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

Lastly, for the time being, the following from the BRG article is where my research will be taking me next ... 

*"*Owens-Illinois introduced applied color labels
on milk bottles beginning in mid-1933, offering
them only from its Huntington, West Virginia,
f a c t o r y."

Note; Please feel free to do your own research on this aspect - you might find something I don't.


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## SODABOB (Sep 3, 2018)

P.S.

Just for the record, the Owens-Illinois mark for their Huntington, West Virginia glass factory is a 3 as in ... 

*3 <(I)> 4

*.View attachment 184161

... which is what appears to be the plant number on Morb's bottle and possibly on the eBay bottle I bought. ???



*
*


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## bottle-bud (Sep 3, 2018)

Here are my earliest acl pop bottles. All dated 1937. The Cleo cola I see was posted earlier.


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

bottle-bud

Great pictures! Thanks for sharing. I love those early ACLs - especially the Cleo Cola. 

*Summary / Update

*Based on what I've seen so far, I am currently of the opinion that ...

1. The likelihood of there being any hand-painted, hand-stenciled *soda bottles *is slim to none. (But keeping an open mind to their possible existence).

2. If any hand-painted, hand-stenciled bottles exist, they are some other type of bottle such as medicine bottles, etc; and especially *milk bottles*.  

3. Recognizing a hand-painted, hand-stenciled bottle of any type would be extremely difficult if not down right impossible. Possibly the best way to pursue this aspect would be to find a document of some type where a bottler speaks about having hand-painted his bottles. Which is something I'm currently searching for, but so far have not found.  

With all of this said, I would like to leap-frog ahead for a moment and draw attention to bottle painting/stenciling *machines*. Patent searches can be extremely time consuming and often complicated, especially when you have to keep leap-frogging from one patent to another because most patents are spin-offs of other patents. For example; the earliest stenciling machines I've seen thus far are for fabrics, cardboard, etc. Most of the glass stenciling patents I've seen include references to those earlier fabric and cardboard stenciling machines. In other words, early bottle stenciling machines are merely changes, alterations, and improvements to previously existing machines. 

Long story short ...

The earliest bottle/ceramic/hard-surface stenciling machine I've seen so far is the one pictured below. Here's the link to the pdf file where you can examine other aspects of the machine and read the detailed text. 

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9c/42/b3/b62b33f5d836ab/US2009098.pdf

Ironically, notice the type of bottle pictured ... 

Filed: January 8, 1934
Granted: July 23, 1935







(To be continued)


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

Now for the fun part ...

*In Search of / Contest
*
I'm convinced that the introduction of Applied Color Labels/Letters for soda and milk bottles was such a big deal at the time that bottlers and dairymen would have *advertised *its arrival - such as the 1934 newspaper article I posted for the "Jumbo - A Super Cola" bottle. I gotta believe there are similar articles/ads for various other brands of soda pop and milk. I invite everyone who is interested in participating to conduct your own article/advertisement search - and the member who produces the *earliest *article/ad for either a soda or milk bottle that is dated* *1934 or earlier*, I will send them a free** ACL book. 

Notes:

* The date has to be on the page itself or within the periodical it derived from. (No guessing)

** I will only ship free within the continental United States - unless the winner is willing to pay the postage if they happen to live in Canada or some other foreign country. (It cost about $25.00 to mail a book to Canada).

Something like the following would not apply because the seller doesn't specify where he got the 1934 date - although I suspect he knows his milk bottles and probably got the date from a rim-code like the ones spoken about in the BRG article I posted. But he doesn't say where he got the date, (no confirmation) hence, it doesn't qualify. What I'm hoping will turn up is a pre-1934 print ad (magazine, etc.) with the date clearly visible on the page itself. 

If nothing else, the text portion that follows might provide some word-clues to assist you in your searches. 

Good luck to all, and may the best searcher/researcher win. (By the way, I'm exempt regardless of what I find). 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/trpq-1934-salesman-sample-mt-vernon-1691966075


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

And here's the text part with word-clues - various names for the ACL process by different glass makers ...

[FONT=&quot]Up for bids is a Mint!, 1934 (VERY EARLY FOR PYROGLAZE!!!) , tall, round SALESMEN SAMPLE / DISPLAY quart milk bottle, red pyroglaze MT. VERNON CREAMERY CO! on front, PASTEURIZED (picture of dutch girl in wooden shoes with yolk & wood milk buckets) MILK on back ... the dairy was located in Mount Vernon IL. near Fairfield Centralia Flora Salem Harrisburg Marion West Frankfort Benton Carbondale Herrin Du Quoin DuQuoin & Texico .... it comes with the original 100% intact 2-tone, cream colored interior paint (done by the milk bottle manufacturer) which shows the razor-sharp creamline when held to the light, this is how you can tell a real, vintage display bottle from a fake!... these bottles were used primarily by the various glass company salesmen between 1934 and 1939 to promote their sale to dairy owners and nothing drove that point home better than to show the dairy owner what his own dairy name & bottles would look like with the new colorful labeling!... In 1933-34, the glass companies had different names for the color labeling process, the Lamb Glass Co. of Mt. Vernon Ohio called it Lustro-Color - Owens-Illinois Glass Co. of Streator ILL. called it A.C.L. (Applied Color Labeling) and the Thatcher Manufacturing Co. of Elmira, N.Y. called it Pyroglaze which is the name most milk bottle collectors refer to today. T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]he beauty of these bottles has shown they practically sold themselves by the end of the 1930's and the process lasted until the use of milk bottles ended in the late 1960's-early 1970's[/FONT]


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

P.S.

I'm limiting the contest to the month of September 2018 only. The earliest dated (1934 or earlier) ad/article/periodical/etc. will win. In the event of a tie (for example; two confirmed but different 1933 ads), I will send both members an ACL book.


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## bottle-bud (Sep 4, 2018)

Found an ad in the Star-Gazette, Elmira N.Y. as follows


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

b-b

Fantastic find! You're currently in the lead with ...

December 30, 1933


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## iggyworf (Sep 4, 2018)

Great work bottle-bud! My white swimsuit girl 7up bottle is dated Owens Illinois 1936.


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

SODABOB said:


> P.S.
> 
> I'm limiting the contest to the month of September 2018 only. The earliest dated (1934 or earlier) ad/article/periodical/etc. will win. In the event of a tie (for example; two confirmed but different 1933 ads), I will send both members an ACL book.




Please don't think ill of me, but I find it necessary to amend the contest rules. It just dawned on me that if multiple ads/articles are submitted for the same year, say 1933, that I would have to send multiple books. I don't think that would be fair to me or anyone else. So the new rule is, the earliest date by not only the year, but also by the month, would take president. In other words, bottle-bud is still in the lead, but if another 1933 date is submitted earlier than *December 30th*, then the earlier *month and day *would win.  

Thanks for your understanding and patience, good hunting ...

Bob


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## SODABOB (Sep 4, 2018)

iggy/Rich

Nice 7up bottle. I'm still looking for the one pictured here. Its dated 1935 but is supposed to slightly pre-date the 1935 swimsuit labels. If ever an ACL soda bottle looked hand-painted/stenciled, this would be the one ...

View attachment 184179


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## SODABOB (Sep 5, 2018)

*Contest Part II
*
Currently, the earliest known and confirmed ACL bottles of any type are ...

1. Jumbo - A Super Cola (1934 soda bottle / Owens-Illinois)

2. Kolb's Dairy (1934 milk bottle / Thatcher Manufacturing)

But due to bottle-bud's 1933 newspaper article, it leads me to believe that Pyroglazed milk bottles were being produced by Thatcher in 1933.

 Notice in the newspaper picture text where it says ... 

"*Mr. Wollinghoff is explaining the new bottle ... featuring colored lettering fused directly into the glass"
*
Its hard to say for certain, but some of the bottles pictured in the stack appear to have pyroglazed lettering on them - which would make since considering where it says "*Mr. Wollinghoff is explaining the new bottle."

*Anyhoo, the Part II contest is as follows ...

1. Prize = ACL Book

2. To the first member who finds and post ...

3. A picture of a 1933 Thatcher "pyroglazed" milk bottle

4. A picture of the bottle's Makers Mark* - embossed on the base

*The mark on the base of the Kolb's Dairy bottle pictured here is ...

*3E4*  inside of a circle. The E is for Elmira - and the 3 4 is for 1934

Which leads me to suspect that a 1933 Thatcher milk bottle will be marked ...

*3E3
*
Even though the picture of the Kolb's bottle base pictured here is blurred, the Bottle Research Group (BRG) examined the actual bottle and confirmed the 1934 date. 

Final notes:  

1. In order to win, the pictures have to be clear and un-challengable. 

2. If someone finds a 1933 Pyroglazed/Applied Color Label bottle of any type, it will reign as the earliest known and confirmed ACL bottle and go down in the record books. 



Thanks again, and good hunting.

Bob


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## OsiaBoyce (Sep 5, 2018)

Call me a sceptic I still do not believe these 'JUMBO' bottles are from 1934 as I have seen far too many of them..........................and all in great condition.


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## SODABOB (Sep 5, 2018)

I have found several Thatcher milk bottles that are described as being marked on the base with ...

*3E3

*This link is to one of them ...

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/crowleys-milk-co-rnd-emb-qt-milk-497669987

The only bummer is, they are all embossed bottles and not Pyroglazed. But that's okay, because it at least tells us that the 3E3 bottles were produced. Now all someone has to do is find a Pyroglazed example marked with 3E3. Easy-smeasy! Right?


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## SODABOB (Sep 6, 2018)

This is the only image of a *3E3 *base mark that I could find. But the milk bottle itself is embossed, not pyroglazed ...


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## SODABOB (Sep 7, 2018)

I hope bottle-bud doesn't mind, but I dinked-around with his 1933 newspaper image in an attempt to see the stacked bottles better to see if any of them showed Pyroglazing. It appears to me that every bottle in the stack is Pyroglazed. Of course I can't make out any of the details, except for the one in the lower-left (bottom row) which appears to have a 'wavy' design on it. I'm also curious what it says on the front of the platform, but can't make it out. See what you think ...


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## PlaneDiggerCam (Sep 7, 2018)

Do you guys know when the embossed lip (A bottle of milk is a bottle of health) type was produced by thatcher in pyro?


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## M.C.Glass (Sep 8, 2018)

Last year I found a Jumbo Cola bottle like the 1934 example in the oldest ACL thread, and purchased it. With no pics of the bottom, it arrived and I was very happy to see that it was dated 1934 also. The label isn't perfect, but one side displays very well. Another example showed up in a Facebook group on the subject as well.


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## bottle-bud (Sep 8, 2018)

I don't mind you dinking with the picture at all. This is a fun project. The label says ???? Superior Quality. ??? probably being some dairy somewhere.


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## bottle-bud (Sep 8, 2018)

Here is an enhanced photo of the stack of bottles, not much better than than yours bottle-bob.


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## SODABOB (Sep 8, 2018)

PlaneDiggerCam said:


> Do you guys know when the embossed lip (A bottle of milk is a bottle of health) type was produced by thatcher in pyro?



PDC

Thanks for participating.

I took a quick look around and found the following regarding the slogan ...

"*A Bottle of Milk is a Bottle of Health*"

1. Blue Pyroglaze
2. Small Child w/ Building Blocks
3. Embossed on base in a square *[**IPM]
*4. IPM stands for "Ideal Pure Milk"

The reference was dated ...

*1938
*
But it didn't say and I don't know if this was the first/earliest Pyro milk bottle with that slogan. I looked for one of the Pyro, Child/Building Blocks bottles but have been unable to find one. I hope this helps.


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## SODABOB (Sep 8, 2018)

MCglass said:


> Last year I found a Jumbo Cola bottle like the 1934 example in the oldest ACL thread, and purchased it. With no pics of the bottom, it arrived and I was very happy to see that it was dated 1934 also. The label isn't perfect, but one side displays very well. Another example showed up in a Facebook group on the subject as well.



MCglass

Thanks for sharing. 

My Jumbo Cola bottle should arrive today or Monday, and I will post some pictures of it after it arrives.


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## SODABOB (Sep 8, 2018)

bottle-bud said:


> I don't mind you dinking with the picture at all. This is a fun project. The label says ???? Superior Quality. ??? probably being some dairy somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 184219



bottle-bud

Thanks.

The "Superior Quality" part looks correct, and I'm thinking the top word might be "Thatcher" ???


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## SODABOB (Sep 8, 2018)

I came across this Thatcher poster and thought it was interesting. Notice the various Design Codes/Numbers. Some of the names are ...

[FONT=&amp]Kane Dairy
Martin Creamery
Bryan's Dairy
Burgess fresh farm milk
Dairy Service Company

I checked several of these names and they were legitimate dairies. Unfortunately, it didn't say what year the poster was printed. Perhaps some of the Design Codes will lead to other clues ...

[ Save and Zoom for details ]

[/FONT]


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## SODABOB (Sep 9, 2018)

In Search of ...

Earliest / First Thatcher *Pyroglazed Soda Bottle  

*The general consensus is that the earliest known painted label soda bottle is the 1934 Jumbo Cola. However, that's an Owens-Illinois bottle. But what about the Thatcher Manufacturing Company's first painted label (Pyroglazed) soda bottle? They definitely made soda bottles, as evidenced by what follows. 

I'm not 100% certain how to decipher their date-codes/marks, but after looking at several of them it appears the date codes *might *be easily recognized. Check out the following and see what you think. Please note the question marks *??? 

*Except for the Gran'pa Graf's bottle, the codes I'm including were part of the seller's description. Unfortunately, sellers seldom include clear pictures of the bases, and more often than not, no picture of the base at all. 

Here's what I've found so far ... The codes/numbers for each bottle are included - All are Thatcher bottles

Thatcher Makers Mark - mTc = Thatcher Manufacturing Company



Leary's - 2608 E 2 50 (1950 ?)



Golden Slipper - 2910 E1 53 (1953 ?)



Tootsie - 2349 E 4 (1949 ?)



Seacrest - 2451 E57 (1951 or 1957 ?)



Gran'pa Graf's - 2367 E 47 2 (1947 ?)



Gran'pa Graf's Base


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## SODABOB (Sep 9, 2018)

And there's this ...

From a Bottle Research Group (BRG) article - No date indicated - Late 1930s / early 1940s ???

View attachment 184250 

Kist - Described as a Thatcher bottle - But no base marks included in description - Exact date unknown

View attachment 184251


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## SODABOB (Sep 9, 2018)

In Search of / Continued ...

If the two-digit numbers are dates, then what I'm hoping to find (with your help) is a Thatcher pyro soda bottle marked with ...

E33
E34
Through E39

Because I don't currently know when the first Thatcher pyro soda bottle was produced, the earliest so-called date code might be from the 1940s, such as ...

E40
Through E49

*???

*Help!?


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## SODABOB (Sep 10, 2018)

Just for the record, here's the entire 3 pages from the 1939 Julian Toulouse article that sparked my interest for this thread. I got to thinking about the reference to "hand painted" bottles and strongly suspect it means ...

Hand *Stenciled
*
If my assumption is correct, I'm thinking the hand-stenciling was done by the glass factories themselves and not by individual bottlers. Nor do I currently believe that hand-painted means with a paint brush. Hence, my continuing research will, among other things, involve a search for any of those so called hand "stencils." 

Note: Some of those stencils were addressed in my "Earliest ACLs" thread, but this time I'm going to dig a little deeper. After all, isn't that part of what bottle collectors do; "Dig" 

From the ...

*First Annual Blue Book of the National Carborator and Bottler ~ February 1939* 

[Save + Zoom to read]







[Cropped from above - I did the red underlining]


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## SODABOB (Sep 10, 2018)

*NEWS FLASH!

*It just came to my attention of the possible existence of *1930-31-32 *ACLs. I will do a follow up on this just as soon as I can confirm a few things and get my ducks in a row ...


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## SODABOB (Sep 10, 2018)

My Jumbo Cola bottle arrived today (See pics) ...

1. Its in medium condition - 7.5 - Numerous Flea Bites - Poor ACL - But no chips or cracks. 
2. The base marks are 3 <(I)> 4 for Owens-Illinois 1934. (It appears to be identical to Morbious_Fod's example) 
3. The O-I plant number is a 3 for Huntington, West Virginia.

I used a razor blade and tried to scratch off a portion of the 'ghost' ACL but it didn't effect it at all - convincing me that what's left of the label is "fused" into the glass and not hand painted/stenciled. All things considered, not a bad investment of $8.99 total for a soda bottle intended for research and experimental purposes.


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## OsiaBoyce (Sep 10, 2018)

Bob, can you show us an add for Jumbo Cola from 1934? As many of these bottles that are out there they must have been very popular and without a doubt they advertised.


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## SODABOB (Sep 11, 2018)

OsiaBoyce said:


> Bob, can you show us an add for Jumbo Cola from 1934? As many of these bottles that are out there they must have been very popular and without a doubt they advertised.



Osia

I already posted a 1934 article on #14 and an ad on #15. They were originally found by Morb and posted in my Earliest ACLs thread several years ago. Check 'em out.


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## SODABOB (Sep 11, 2018)

False Alarm

Earlier I said that I was on the trail of the possible existence of 1930 to 1932 ACLs. It involved an Owens-Illinois catalog that's located in the archives department of the University of Toledo, Ohio. Because of what we're calling the 'Signatures Page' (See pics) they believed the catalog was published in 1930. But as it turns out, the catalog was published in 1934 at the earliest, and most likely sometime between 1935 and 1937. Like other O-I catalogs from that era, the one in Toledo contains a section on Libbey Safedge ACL tumblers (drinking glasses) with a Donald Duck tumbler among them. The thing is, Donald Duck didn't make his debut until 1934 in a book titled "The Wise Little Hen." Prior to that 1934 debut, no one ever heard of Donald Duck - and even then he was just a minor character. So the catalog in Toledo cannot be from 1930. I have exchanged several emails with the archivist, Sara Mouch, and she was very helpful. If someone who reads this lives in or near Toledo, Ohio, and is interested in examining the catalog, they can make an appointment with Sara to see it. Here's her information ... 

Sara Mouch
University of Toledo
Archives Department
Phone 419-530-5578
Email  sara.mouch@utoledo.edu

In the event that someone does make an appointment to examine the catalog, please let us know what you find. Perhaps you can figure out some way to properly date it. 

(Pics to follow on next page)


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## OsiaBoyce (Sep 11, 2018)

SODABOB said:


> Osia
> 
> I already posted a 1934 article on #14 and an ad on #15. They were originally found by Morb and posted in my Earliest ACLs thread several years ago. Check 'em out.


Hmmmmmm, I missed that. I still do not understand or see why I've seen so many of these bottles and in the condition that I saw them........maybe,


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## SODABOB (Sep 11, 2018)

The reason the archivist thought the catalog was published in 1930 is because of this so-called 'Signatures Page." All images courtesy of Sara Mouch.

Catalog Cover




Signatures Page



Cropped top of page. 

Notice ...

1. "Beck" = Harold (Beck) Boeschenstein (Vice President of the Owens-Illinois Company in the 1930s)
2. "The First Owens-Illinois Catalog"  (The Owens-Illinois Company was established in 1929)



Cropped upper-right portion of page. 

This is the main reason the archivist thought the catalog was published in 1930. But apparently the signatures page was added to a later catalog. Notice where it says "Catalog finished Dec 1930"  Sara said the signatures page was already in the catalog when the University received it. 



Cropped from the bottom of the page. 

This is a mystery in itself. Notice the word "Replica." Sara said the page is made of Vellum paper, but couldn't explain the "Replica" aspect, and doesn't know where the original is, or even if it still exist. But at least the combination of things indicates there was a "First Catalog" published at some point in time, even though no 1930 catalog has ever surfaced that I'm aware of.


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## SODABOB (Sep 20, 2018)

I'm continuing with the following, which is from an AB.net thread ...

1. Started by member ACLbottles in 2014
2. The copy/pasted text below was posted on Page 1/Post #9 by member epackage
3.Among other things, it provides some new terms (that I edited and changed to red) for the ACL process used by different glass making companies. 
4. The link should take you directly to the thread that originally appeared in the "Milk & Dairy Bottles" forum. 



https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?640187-Blue-pyro-Perry-Creamery-Co




This process was called *P**yroglazing* (pyro for short). Pyroglaze was the term used by the Thatcher Manufacturing Company of Elmira, New York. 

Owens-Illinois Glass Company of Toledo, Ohio used the term *Applied Color Lettering *or ACL for the same process. 

The Universal Glass Products Company of Parkersburg, West Virginia called the process *Fire-fused Color Lettering* or *Hi-fired* Color Lettering. 

Liberty Glass Company of Sapulpa, Oklahoma used the term *Lustro-color* for their bottles with colored lettering.

[ Notice what epackage says here - especially some of the dates ]

The first mention that we have seen of colored lettering by a U. S. glass manufacturer was a January 1933 newspaper article that said the Sheffield factory of the Knox Glass Bottle Company was experimenting with the process on prescription bottles. An industry press release in May of 1933 indicated that Owens-Illinois Glass Company had developed this process for use on milk bottles at its plant in Huntington, West Virginia. Soon after, by July of 1933, they started promoting milk bottles with fused names and trademarks in color (they did not use the term ACL at that time) in their own advertisements. In August of 1932 they used the term "Applied Color" Bottles in their advertisements to refer to display milk bottles that had color fused to the inside of the glass bottle. Display milk bottles were internally colored white to simulate milk and a yellow color to indicate the cream. This was done inside the bottle and used by milk dealers in their promotional displays. One unintended use of these display milk bottles was as a way to hide liquor. Prohibition was still in place in 1932 and these painted milk bottles did a good job of concealing their contents, especially if it was not milk. We are not sure if coloring the insides of the bottle was the same technology as applying colored labels to the outside of the bottle but Owens-Illinois claimed that the colors were fused to the glass by intense heat. They said the color was an integral part of the glass and permanent and indestructible except through breakage. The first advertisement we have seen from the Thatcher Manufacturing Company for pyroglazing was in March of 1934. They used the term pyroglaze in that advertisement.


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## SODABOB (Sep 20, 2018)

Here's the thing(s) that keeps me digging deeper ... 

*If *epackage's information is correct, the *1933 *dates suggest there should be some ACLs from that year - even if they were experimental, and possibly only on milk and pharmaceutical bottles.

Plus, there's this article from ...

The News Herald ~ Franklin, Pa. ~ August 27, 1935






[ Cropped from above ]


*If *its correct, and we deduct four years from 1935, that takes us to *1931* 

So what I'm thinking is, there's a possibility that ACLs exist from as early as 1931-1932. Not to mention the possibility of some of them being hand painted/stenciled. But finding and properly dating them is another can of worms unto itself. Hence, one of the many reasons for this thread and why I continue to dig deeper and deeper. I'd like nothing better than to find a hand painted ACL from 1931-32


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## SODABOB (Sep 20, 2018)

The copy/pasted paragraph below is from the 1939 Julian Toulouse article I posted earlier. I selected this particular part because of the first sentence where it says ..."In the beginning of the silk stencil process the designs were carefully cut by hand with a knife."  Now we not only have Toulouse eluding to "hand painted" ACLs, but also to "hand cut stencils."  But where-o-where are those elusive boogers?  

*"*In the beginning of the silk stencil process the designs were carefully cut by hand with a knife. The life of these screens were short and the method of preparing them made them quite costly. Later photographic methods were developed which allow extremely complicated designs, fine registers, the employment of several colors superimposed, and other great advantages at markedly reduced costs. These factors contributed much to the growing popularity of applied color labels."


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## SODABOB (Sep 20, 2018)

I've been looking at dozens of early ACLs and came across this (pint cream) milk bottle ... 

Mary's Grove Dairy ~ Lenoir, N.C.   ~  mTc Thatcher Manufacturing Company ~ Marked 3E4 for 1934

The reason I selected this particular bottle is because the ACL looked kind of crude, as if it might have been hand painted/stenciled. Plus, the dairy itself sounded kind of small and a possible candidate for a low production of bottles that maybe, just maybe, were hand painted/stenciled. But who can say for sure? Does the ACL look like it was hand made to you? 



View attachment 184550 

View attachment 184551

(To be continued)


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## SODABOB (Sep 20, 2018)

Lastly (for today), here's a great picture of a *3E2* (1932) Thatcher milk bottle base. Unfortunately, its fully embossed and not an ACL. But it will give us some idea of what to look for and hopefully find one that's an ACL. And where there's a 1932 ACL milk bottle, maybe, just maybe there's a 1932 ACL soda bottle?


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## SODABOB (Sep 21, 2018)

One way to determine whether or not hand painted/stenciled bottles exist is to try and figure out when the first stenciling *machines* became common. Even for the big glass makers like Owens-Illinois and Thatcher, I have to believe the introduction of stenciling machines was a gradual process and didn't occur overnight - just as the transition from fully embossed bottles to ACLs was a gradual process for the bottlers who used them. 

Take for example the following machines - which were invented by individuals listed as "Assignors" to the Owens-Illinois Glass Company. I'm still searching for earlier examples because it appears that by the time these two machines were invented the ACL process had advanced considerably. But even with that said, they give us a peek at what was going on at the time, and might provide clues to earlier bottle stenciling machines.

This first example was ... 

Filed for in 1938
Granted in 1941




[ Notice the label in this cropped portion - and that it appears to be a beverage bottle ]



This next example was ...

Filed for in 1941
Granted in 1942

I especially like this one because its the earliest I could find that addressed the shoulder ACL application.



[ Notice the 'tilt' feature in this cropped portion ]


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## SODABOB (Sep 21, 2018)

The image below is cropped from the 1939 Julian Toulouse article. Notice that none of the ACLs pictured have a shoulder ACL. Now I'm wondering when the first/earliest shoulder ACLs were produced. 

Hey, iggy/Rich

You're the 7up guy among us - when did the ACL shoulder emblems first appear on 7up bottles? I'm thinking around 1938, but I'm not certain. If the shoulder ACLs did start around 1938, they might tie-in with the 1941-1942 shoulder stenciling machine I just posted.


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## SODABOB (Sep 21, 2018)

After considerable *digging *I may have hit pay-dirt with this one. Its another bottle stenciling machine and the earliest one I expect to find. Based on the detailed description associated with it, its primary function was for round surface bottles of various shapes and sizes. Here's a copy/pasted portion of the description. You can read the entire text by using the link. Notice the inventor was an 'Assignor' to the Hazel Atlas Glass Company ...

https://patents.google.com/patent/U...ciling&q=machine&oq=bottle+stenciling+machine



UNITED STATES 2014,372 PATENT office 2,014,372 METHOD of AND APPARATUS FOR STENCILING GLASS OR OTHER CERAMIC CONTAINERS HAVING CURVED SURFACES Barry S. Brickell, Jr., Pittsburgh, Pa., assignor to Hazel-Atlas Glass Company, Wheeling, W. War, a corporation of West Virginia. 


Application May 4, 1933, serial No. 669,445 



The stenciling of bottles, jars, and other containers made of glass or similar material, does not involve any serious problem if the bottles or jars have a plane surface upon which the word or design is to be stenciled. Just the contrary is true in the stenciling of bottles, jars, tumblers and similar glass containers having curved surfaces upon which the word or design is to be applied. This problem is encountered in the stenciling of all round bottles and jars, oval bottles and jars, round or oval tapering bottles and jars, and in fact in all glass containers which have a curved surface, whether such curved surface extends lengthwise of the glass containers, or transversely of the container, or in all directions as in the case of containers having convex or spherical surfaces to be stenciled; and herein after when a curved surface is mentioned it will be understood to include any and all curved surfaces of glass containers, as distinguished from containers having flat or plane surfaces. It will also be understood that the present invention relates solely to the stenciling of curved Surfaces as distinguishing from the printing or other decoration of curved surfaces; the problems being entirely distinct. After the words or designs have been applied to the articles they are fired in the usual manner. 

Filed 1933
Granted 1935





The bottles in the machine appear to be 'Bluing' bottles


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## SODABOB (Sep 21, 2018)

New Word / Term ...

ACL originally stood for Applied Color Lettering ( And then changed to Applied Color *Label *)

My New Word / Term is ...

SACL for Stencil Applied Color Label

or if you prefer ...

SACL for Silkscreen Applied Color Label


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## SODABOB (Sep 21, 2018)

[ Just fooling around ]


But, then again, maybe its a Hazel Atlas *ink bottle *...


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## SODABOB (Sep 22, 2018)

[ Weekend Homework ]

Do you consider the word "*Bitters*" on this Hazel-Atlas bitters bottle as an Applied Color Label?


Angostura Bitters 




Base w/  10 K-278





I'll post more about these bottles next week, but I can tell you now that I do consider them as having an Applied Color Label. I have seen them with black, blue, and red lettering. 

I'll be back. Have a great weekend - be sure and finish your 'homework'   


Bob


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## bottle-bud (Sep 23, 2018)

Here is a picture of a worker at a pyroglaze machine. From the Star-Gazette of Elmira N.Y. Dated June 20, 1954


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

bottle-bud

Great find - but a little confusing. I had to save and zoom the newspaper clipping in order to read it - which was no problem, but was surprised to discover it said the guy was "Hand-feeding" the bottles into the machine. I would have thought that by 1954 they had automatic machines. But apparently not - at least not at that particular plant. So I guess I/we need to dig a little deeper and figure out the 'Hand-fed' machines vs the 'Automatic machines.' Not to mention whether the 1954 machine in the clipping applied the Pyroglaze paint electrically/air pressure or just how it was applied. ???


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

ACL or something else?

[ From a Hazel-Atlas bottle marked with 3-K-278 ]


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

I have found numerous examples of the Hazel-Atlas bitters bottles - all of which appear to be identical in size and shape. The only distinguishable difference is the markings on the base. All have the *K-278 *on them. But the first numbers range between 2 and 10. I have not found a 1, nor anything higher than 10. 

Here are examples of those that had acceptable pictures of the base ... 

2-K-278

 

(The 3 is shown in my last post)

5-K-278



6-K-278



10-K-278



Next Question:

Are the first numbers (2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10) Date Codes, Mold Numbers, or something else?


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

Some Helpful Clues ...

1. The 'K' represents the Hazel-Atlas plant in Zanesville, Ohio where the bottles were made
2. The 'K' is representative of the *K*earns-Gorsuch Glass Company (Zanesville) that Hazel-Atlas acquired in 1920

3.


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

This should confirm "Viviano Bitters" was being sold in painted label bottles at least as early as *1935



*

[ The Cincinnati Enquirer - Ohio - April 26, 1935 ]


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## SODABOB (Sep 24, 2018)

bottle-bud said:


> Here is a picture of a worker at a pyroglaze machine. From the Star-Gazette of Elmira N.Y. Dated June 20, 1954
> 
> View attachment 184598




bottle-bud

I re-read the text part of the 1938 thru 1942 Stenciling machine patents and it appears they were operated by electromagnets and air pressure. However, the 'bottle loading' aspect seems to have been by hand (operator), who also controlled the pyroglaze application levers and switches. According to what I've read, those early operators could process about 25 to 30 bottles per minute.


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## iggyworf (Sep 25, 2018)

SODABOB said:


> The image below is cropped from the 1939 Julian Toulouse article. Notice that none of the ACLs pictured have a shoulder ACL. Now I'm wondering when the first/earliest shoulder ACLs were produced.
> 
> Hey, iggy/Rich
> 
> ...



My earliest 7up with neck label dates 1936.


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## SODABOB (Sep 26, 2018)

bottle-bud said:


> Here is a picture of a worker at a pyroglaze machine. From the Star-Gazette of Elmira N.Y. Dated June 20, 1954
> 
> View attachment 184598


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## SODABOB (Sep 26, 2018)

iggy/Rich

Howz about a pic of your 1936 7up with the ACL neck label - Thanks


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## SODABOB (Sep 26, 2018)

https://patents.google.com/patent/U...:19330101&oq=Hazel+Atlas+Stencil+Machine+1933



The stencil is referred to generally by numeral 4, and is preferably composed of a sheet of stencil paper in which the letters or other designs are cut, and a *silk screen* cemented to the stencil paper.


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## iggyworf (Sep 27, 2018)

SODABOB said:


> iggy/Rich
> 
> Howz about a pic of your 1936 7up with the ACL neck label - Thanks



Here is my 1936 7up with neck label. It is actually my white swimsuit bottle! The label is a little lower on the bottle than later yrs. Normally you see the neck label higher up on the neck of 7up bottles. Not sure why that might be. Maybe back then they were trying that area first on the bottle. I have seen other 7up early bottles like this one before. It is not centered on any other part of the bottle either. And with only one neck label on the backside of the bottle.


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

iggy/Rich

Thanks for the pic. 

Those Downy-Joyce 7up bottles seem to have been produced with a variety of different ACL labels - and possibly (likely?) some of the earliest. 

The following U.S. Patent is a little later than your 1936 7up, but its the earliest I can find where the ACL label was applied "*simutaneously*" to the body of the bottle as well as to the shoulder. I can't say at the moment, and we may never know for certain, if your 1936 7up ACL labels were applied simutaneously or separately. Perhaps with more research we'll be able to determine that someday. 

Notice that the first part of the text says "Improvements" - indicating earlier patents ... 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2152356A/en?q=bottle&q=silk+screen&oq=bottle+silk+screen&page=5


" Improvements in decorating glass bottles and the like, and it is among the objects thereof to provide apparatus whereby decorations, lettering or the like, may be simultaneously applied to the body and shoulder of the glass articles." 

Filed: March 14, 1938
Granted: March 28, 1939


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

This next part is a little more complex, but I'll do my best. It involves an Owens-Illinois patent ...

Filed: December 20, 1935
Granted: December 15, 1936

... regarding the "*Stencil Screens*" themselves and not the machines that applied them. Especially notice the words "*s**pread by hand*" which is a reference to how the earlier process was performed as opposed to this particular Patent that employs a built-in (automatic) squeegee for spreading the paint.

*I'm thinking this might have been what Julian Toulouse meant in his 1939 article when he referred to "hand-painted" ACL labels. And not so much that they were "hand-painted" but rather that they were 'hand-squeegeed" ???

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2064764A/en?q=bottle&q=silk+screen&oq=bottle+silk+screen&page=7













I posted this Hazel-Atlas ACL Bitters label earlier - and think it might be an example of the "imperfect, uneven pattern" mentioned in the above Patent that was a problem with the earlier processes. If so, the imperfect, uneven pattern of the Bitters label might be an example of a hand-painted / hand-squeegeed ACL label - and possibly a clue to recognizing other so called "hand-made" ACL labels. ???



Footnote:   "*Squeegee / Squeegeed*" is one weird word!


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

Based on what I'm learning about U.S. Patents, especially those involving machines, it appears to me that in order to "*File*" a Patent the inventor would first have to build a working prototype of the machine. How else would he know if it even worked? Not to mention the text description that goes into detail as to how each gear, sprocket, and what-you-may-call-it works. In other words, a Patent for a machine that was "Filed" in 1933 could very easily (and likely) have taken a year or more to build and test. After that it was the Patent Office's task to make sure that the Patent didn't infringe on some other patent - hence the time it took before the Patent Office would "*Grant*" the Patent to the inventor. Thus, a Patent filed in 1933 could very well have resulted from a design that was begun in 1932 or earlier. Just because the "Granted" dates came later doesn't mean that companies like Owens-Illinois weren't using those machines in their factories prior to them being legally granted.


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

*In Search of ...   *

A silkscreen actually used for a soda bottle label (or any bottle) ...

Based on their size (Appx. 30 inches long) the silkscreens pictured here were for Coolers and Signs and not bottles. I have done an exhaustive search and cannot find a single example of a silkscreen intended for bottles of any type. Apparently they were extremely fragile and once used were not saved. If you know of or find one, please post it. The examples shown here are the only ones I could find of any type. 

Royal Crown Cola 

View attachment 184717

View attachment 184718

Frostie Root Beer (Notice the can for scale/size)

View attachment 184719

View attachment 184720


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

P.S. 

Another *Contest *...

I will send a free ACL book to the first member who post a picture of an actual *Soda Bottle *silkscreen. Silkscreens for Coolers, Signs, Etc; do not qualify. This particular contest ends on October 31st (Halloween) 2018. The so called "Proofs" shown below are not actual silkscreens and do not qualify. 

Regarding the "Pyroglaze" contest, bottle-bud is the current leader with his December *30*, 1933 newspaper article. If no earlier example is found by this coming Sunday, September 30, 2018, then  bottle-bud will be the winner and receive a free ACL book. 

Note: The shipping of any book is free only in the continental United States. If a winning member lives in a foreign country they will have to pay the shipping themselves. Thanks for understanding.


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## SODABOB (Sep 28, 2018)

This doesn't qualify as a winner because its a "*jar*" silkscreen and not a soda bottle silkscreen. But I thought I'd share it anyway to give us some idea what a soda bottle silkscreen might look like. Besides, I can't give myself a free ACL book because I already have about ten of them. (Like new 2002 editions - available for sale @ $45.00 per).

[ Star-Tribune Minneapolis, Minnesota January 10, 1949 ]


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## hemihampton (Sep 28, 2018)

Not a silkscreen but a cool Dad's Item. LEON.


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## SODABOB (Sep 29, 2018)

hemi

Nice can. It ties in with the Dad's "proof."  Speaking of which, the blob in the upper-left corner of the proof is the top of one of the family member's head - I believe its "Mama's" head/hair, but I haven't been able to find a label *exactly *like the one shown on the proof. ???


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## SODABOB (Sep 29, 2018)

*In Search of ...
*
The actual magazine/periodical that the image below came from. Its supposed to be from ... 

*"The Glass Packer"  ~  February 1933 

*Here's the text/caption that's supposed to be with the article ...

"The enamel is baked or fused into the glass and, becoming an integral part of the container, will not rub or scratch off; nor is it in the least affected by water or chemicals. The enamel may be applied in any color, and it retains its luster during the entire life of the bottle." 

The name on the bottles is ...
*
Mandel's Pharmacy  ~  Chicago, Illinois  ~  Plus a phone number

*If the article is genuine, and the bottles were actually made, then they are the earliest ACLs I am currently aware of. The bottles were supposedly made by *Brockway Glass  ~  Brockway, Pennsylvania *


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## SODABOB (Sep 29, 2018)

Here's a 1942 issue ~ I can't find a 1933 ...


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## SODABOB (Sep 29, 2018)

I haven't found a 1933 Glass Packer magazine or one of the bottles, but I was able to confirm there was a ...

*Mandel Drug Store
6161 Kedzie Avenue
Chicago, Illinois



*(Now all I need is to find one of their 1933 ACL "Monogram" bottles and I'll be in like Flint)

[ Chicago Tribune ~ September 22, *1933 *]


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## SODABOB (Sep 30, 2018)

*​If ...*


Here's where I found the 1933 Glass Packer magazine reference and the Mandel's Pharmacy bottles picture. The link goes directly to the pdf download. Notice on page four where it says ...

https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/Brockway.pdf



"This was the first use of what would become widely known to bottle collectors on soda bottles as the Applied Color Lettering (ACL) process (actually the name used by the Owens-Illinois Glass Co.) and on milk bottles as pyroglazing (the term used by the Thacher Mfg. Co.). The article noted that the process was only being offered initially for prescription ware, but the firm intended to add food bottles and perfume containers. What the article did not say was that 1933 technology was incapable of applying the enamel to curved surfaces. Its use on one curve (e.g., on cylindrical bottles) was perfected the next year, when it was used on soda and milk bottles."


If I understand it correctly, its saying the Brockway Glass Company was the "first" glass maker to produce an ACL bottle. If so, and if the picture of the Mandel bottles is actually in the 1933 issue of the Glass Packer magazine, then that's pretty strong evidence of the existence of a 1933 ACL. And because the picture is of actual bottles and not just a drawing, then I'm inclined to believe those bottles were actually produced and possibly still exist somewhere. Even though I haven't been able to find one yet, I plan to continue the search and hopefully find one someday - and if I can't find a bottle, maybe I/we can find a copy of the 1933 Glass Packer magazine and see if the article is actually in it. 

Check out this article about the "Mandel Brothers" 100th anniversary in Chicago ( "Since" 1855" ). The Mandel Brothers and Mandel Pharmacy/Drug Store were one and the same, only different locations at different times ...

[ The Chicago Tribune  ~  October 8, 1933  ]


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## SODABOB (Sep 30, 2018)

*Summary ...

Earliest (Unconfirmed) ACL Pharmaceutical Bottle ~ Brockway Glass Company ~ February 1933 

*


*
Earliest (Unconfirmed) Pyroglaze Milk Bottles ~ Thatcher Manufacturing Company ~ December 1933

*


*

Earliest (Confirmed) ACL Soda Bottle ~ Jumbo A Super Cola ~ Owens-Illinois Glass Company ~ 1934


*

(To be continued)


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## hemihampton (Sep 30, 2018)

Interesting. Keep up the good work Bob. LEON.


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## SODABOB (Oct 1, 2018)

Leon

Thanks - 

I just wish I could find one of those Brockway bottles or a copy of the Glass Packer magazine. The first bottles might have been experimental/introductory, but because they thought enough of them to put in a Trade periodical, there's a good chance there are some survivors somewhere. If someone who reads this lives in or near Chicago, maybe they can look into it.


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## SODABOB (Oct 1, 2018)

bottle-bud / pyro-guy

Congratulations! 

Please send me your address via a PM and I will mail your ACL book ASAP 


View attachment 184763


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## SODABOB (Oct 1, 2018)

For Future Reference ...

This Brockway bottle isn't an ACL, but I selected it as a possible clue as to what to look for regarding the base marks. The seller claims it was produced between 1924 and 1934, but I'm not sure how he reached that conclusion. Based on what I've read about Brockway marks, no one seems to know for certain just exactly how to decipher them. Apparently it has something to do with ...

1. The "B" in a circle

2. The "B" itself and that some of them have "Serifs" which refers to the overhanging/extended part of the "B" something like this ...

*B
*
( Notice the "B" in the attached pic.)

I'm not certain, but I don't think the *29 *is for 1929, but I suppose it could be. My guess is that the *1229* is a style/mold number. Anyhoo, perhaps with more searching we'll eventually find one of the so-called 1933 "Monogram" bottles ...

Link to bottle ...


https://www.etsy.com/hk-en/listing/...ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=brockway







I selected this bottle mainly because of the base marks and the seller's claim about it being produced between 1924 and 1934


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## SODABOB (Oct 1, 2018)

*NEWS FLASH ...

*I just exchanged emails with several members of the BRG / sha.org and they confirmed the existence of the 1933 Glass Packer article about Brockway Glass. They no longer have the actual copy because the member who had it apparently had a stroke and is no longer available for comment. Member Bill Lockhart said the Brockway bottles in the article are the absolute earliest ACL/Pyro bottles he is aware of. Carol Serr sent me this link where copies of the magazine are located - all in New York. If anyone who reads this lives in or near New York City, please look into it one of these days and let us know what you find - Thanks

Library Location Link ...

http://www.worldcat.org/title/glass-packer/oclc/14178277/editions?referer=di&editionsView=true

(The search continues for one of the bottles itself)


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## SODABOB (Oct 2, 2018)

I did a thorough search for a "Mandel's Pharmacy" ACL Prescription Ware bottle from Chicago but cannot find one anywhere and starting to suspect they were never mass produced for that particular drug store. However, I did find and just purchased this "Carl's Drug Store" ACL/Paper Label bottle - Greencastle, Pennsylvania.  Greencastle is about 150 miles south of Brockway, Pennsylvania where the Brockway Glass Company was located. The seller's description did not say anything about who made the bottle, nor when, but I'm betting it was made by Brockway Glass. I'll let you know what the base marks are after I receive the bottle in about a week. I'm crossing my fingers that its a 1933 bottle. ???



Note: The bottle I inserted into the 1933 Glass Packer article is not the one I purchased. I just did that to show the similarity to the Mandel's bottle. I found that one after I purchased the ACL/paper label bottle. But having already found two examples of the Carl's bottle, that's a good indication they might have been mass produced. The word "Offer" in the title refers to the fact that I made a lower offer to the seller, which they accepted. 







Here's the one I purchased ...


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## SODABOB (Oct 2, 2018)

PS

This link goes to a full history of Carl's Drug Store in Greencastle, PA.  I consider it good news because its consistent with the possibility that Brockway Glass focused on the more successful drug stores at the time. Check it out ...

http://www.greencastlemuseum.org/carls-drug-store.html


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## SODABOB (Oct 2, 2018)

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ...

( But no date or other info and not for sale )




Notice the ACL label is the same style as that on the prescription bottle - except this one is blue and the other one is white. I guess that qualifies them as true Applied *Color* Label bottles ...


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## SODABOB (Oct 5, 2018)

According to USPS Tracking, my Carl's ACL bottle is supposed to arrive today. I'm still crossing my fingers that its a 1933 bottle. If it is, it will be the earliest ACL bottle I'm aware of. If not, then ...

(To be continued )


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## iggyworf (Oct 5, 2018)

Bob, great stuff once again!!


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## SODABOB (Oct 5, 2018)

iggy/Rich

Thanks

The bottle arrived and I'm currently photographing it. I've also contacted Bill Lockhard and Carol Serr (BRG / sha.org) who are assisting me in trying to date it. I'll tell you what we come up with later.


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## SODABOB (Oct 5, 2018)

Here's the pics I took.  As you can see, the bottle is super small. I took numerous pics, but these are the best of the lot ...

Its marked on the base with a ...
*
K in a Keystone with the number 5

*Its a "Knox Glass Bottle Company" bottle - who I am not all that familiar with. I'm still waiting to hear from Bill Lockart who I sent the same pics to. All I know at the moment is that it dates sometime between 1924 and 1968. I'm hoping Bill can narrow it down for me a little more. 

This link is to a pdf file that Bill and Carol participated in about ten years regarding the Knox Glass Bottle Company and its bottle marks. Check it out. I'll let you know what Bill and Carol have to say later on. By the way, there was still a little Anise oil in the bottle, and now my whole place smells like it. But, actually, its kind of a cool fragrance and smells something like vanilla/cinnamon. 

https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/Knox2_BRG.pdf









This is a *3 1/2 *on the shoulder which I measured with water and is .5 or 1/2 Ounce





The base with K in a Keystone and the number 5






I'll be back!


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## SODABOB (Oct 5, 2018)

I just heard from Bill Lockhart. Here's his copy/pasted comments ...

"Unfortunately, Knox never used date codes, so there is no way to reduce the date range for its products. Unless bottle style can somehow be deciphered, there is not even a way to tell if a bottle was made at the Knox, Pennsylvania, plant (before 1952) or if it was made at any one of the factories after that date.  I'm afraid this is another dead end."


And here's the copy/pasted reply I sent to him and Carol Serr ...

Thanks, Bill and Carol

"I was afraid of that. I'm going to do some additional research (primarily by newspaper articles/ads) on Carl's Drug Store and see if I can find something there. There are hundreds of Carl's articles - I just need to find the right one that might say something about them using an ACL bottle. If that occurred years ago, it might have been such a big deal that they might have advertised it. I'll let you guys know if/when I find anything pertinent."  


Thanks again for all your help

Bob


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## SODABOB (Oct 5, 2018)

There's still hope for my Carl's bottle being an early ACL. Lookie what I just found ... 

[ The News-Herald ~ Franklin, Pa. ~ August 27, 1935 ]



 [Article cropped for easy reading ]




[ Notice ~ "Perma lettered" and experimented "Four Years" ~ 1935 - 4 = 1931 ]


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## SODABOB (Oct 6, 2018)

More/Better Good News for Knox Prescription Ware "Decorated" Bottles 

*1933

*[ The Clarion Democrat ~ Clarion, Pennsylvania ~ January 26, 1633 ]


[ Full Page ]




[ Cropped from upper-left corner of page ]





[ Cropped from lower-left portion of page ]


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## SODABOB (Oct 6, 2018)

More ...


[ The Kane Republic ~ Kane, Pennsylvania ~ February 23, 1933 ] 
*
**1933*


[ Full Page ]





[ Cropped Portion ]


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## SODABOB (Oct 6, 2018)

P.S. 

The January 26, 1933 Knox article is slightly earlier than the February 1933 Glass Packer magazine article about the Brockway Glass Company ACL bottles. Hence, the January 26, 1933 Knox article is the earliest reference to painted label / decorated bottles that I am currently aware of. 


View attachment 184856


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## SODABOB (Oct 14, 2018)

I apologize for being AWOL - but I got sidetracked on a new project that is demanding most of my attention (which I don't have as much of these days as I used to).  Anyway, when I return I hope to continue this discussion - and might even have a few surprises in store. So please don't give up on me and stay tuned for ... ???

Bob

P.S. 

Contest #2 is still ongoing for the first member who finds a *soda bottle silkscreen*. The contest ends at midnight on Halloween. And in case you didn't already know, bottle-bud has received his ACL book for winning the first contest.


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