# Damaged Old Sachem Bitters And Wigwam Tonic Bottle Value



## Nola (Oct 13, 2018)

Hi,
This is my first post to this forum and I am a complete novice with bottles. I hope I'm asking my question in the right place.
I recently got an Old Sachem Bitters and Wigwam Tonic bottle which unfortunately has a bubble in the top half that broke making a hole in the side of the bottle.
The hole has a few radiating fractures as you can see in the photos but other than that, overall, the strength and condition of the bottle seem pretty good.
I have researched and seen a few different values for these bottles in good shape but no info about damaged bottles.
I wonder if anyone would please help me and let me know what they think my bottle might be worth and why.
Thanks very much in advance for any and all input!


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## Robby Raccoon (Oct 13, 2018)

Does it have a pontil scar on the bottom, or is it smooth-based?


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## Nola (Oct 13, 2018)

Spirit Bear said:


> Does it have a pontil scar on the bottom, or is it smooth-based?



Not sure exactly how to determine if there is a pontil scar or not. 
There is a slightly raised smooth area in the center of the bottom.
It is not a perfectly smooth bottom but there is nothing sharp edged.
Hope the photos I've included will help.
Thank you!


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## hemihampton (Oct 13, 2018)

I would think a damaged bottle with that much damage would be worth 25% of a undamaged bottle. Some people hate damaged bottles & may say 5-10% value of a nice one. LEON.



P.S. Doesn't look pontiled.


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## Nola (Oct 13, 2018)

Thank you, Leon!
I hope you don't mind but I have another question and would like to learn more. 
What bearing does having or not having a pontil have on the age, history and/or value of this bottle?
Thanks again for your help.


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## hemihampton (Oct 14, 2018)

Nola said:


> Thank you, Leon!
> I hope you don't mind but I have another question and would like to learn more.
> What bearing does having or not having a pontil have on the age, history and/or value of this bottle?
> Thanks again for your help.




I'm far from any expert on bottles like some in here but as far as I know you have 2 different kind of Pontil bottles, the open Pontil & non open Pontil both dating before the 1860's or maybe upto early to mid 1860's for the graphite Pontil. Your bottle probably dates from 1870's+. Pontils always seem to get more money just because they are older & more desirable, Just my opinion. Anybody else wanta chime in? LEON.


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## hemihampton (Oct 14, 2018)

Here's a example of a similar one I found with a graphite or iron pontil bottom. Usually a reddish or grayish color on bottom. The open pontil no color just a small round rough looking hole. LEON.


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## Harry Pristis (Oct 14, 2018)

Looks like a casualty of over-enthusiasm with a steel bottle probe.  What a shock that bottle must have been when dug up!  As is, the bottle might fetch $10 - $20 from the right buyer, I think.


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## Robby Raccoon (Oct 14, 2018)

I agree with Harry. Damage destroys value, but that bitters isn't one the general collector would be able to afford and would fill the spot temporarily. And, no, it isn't pontiled.


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## hemihampton (Oct 14, 2018)

I'd pay $20 for it. LEON.


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## nhpharm (Oct 15, 2018)

Harry,

If hit by a probe as you suggest, I would say more like bad luck than over-enthusisam.  If you've run a probe, you know that even with the gentlest of touch, that style of bottle will not hold up to any level of probe contact.


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## Nola (Oct 15, 2018)

hemihampton said:


> Here's a example of a similar one I found with a graphite or iron pontil bottom. Usually a reddish or grayish color on bottom. The open pontil no color just a small round rough looking hole. LEON.View attachment 184977View attachment 184978



Thanks very much for the info, Leon. There isn't anything like that on my bottle.
I came across an Old Sachem Bitters bottle mold while researching my bottle and thought I would share it here for anyone who might be interested.
Hope that's okay.
You can see an example of the mold here-
http://www.philamuseum.org/collections/permanent/50524.html


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## Harry Pristis (Oct 15, 2018)

nhpharm said:


> Harry,
> 
> If hit by a probe as you suggest, I would say more like bad luck than over-enthusisam.  If you've run a probe, you know that even with the gentlest of touch, that style of bottle will not hold up to any level of probe contact.




Yes, I have done a fair bit of probing.  Never had the too-common experience of piercing a bottle though.  And, unless YOU are the prober, how do you know this damage was a result of bad luck and not over-exertion?  It seems to me that you are assuming facts that are not in evidence, while I relied on the observable damage.


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## hemihampton (Oct 16, 2018)

I usually go slow with the Probe & come to a stop when I seem to hit a bottle. But sometimes your just hitting a Rock or a Brick & it can be difficult to tell the differance sometimes. LEON.


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## Harry Pristis (Oct 16, 2018)

hemihampton said:


> I usually go slow with the Probe & come to a stop when I seem to hit a bottle. But sometimes your just hitting a Rock or a Brick & it can be difficult to tell the differance sometimes. LEON.




I agree, Leon, that distinguishing between brick and glass bottle and window glass is a learned skill.  Some probers will be better than others at that skill.  Experience makes a difference in "reading" the probe.


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## jarhead67 (Oct 19, 2018)

That puce color is nice. Damaged or not, it would look great in a shape/color window display.


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## hemihampton (Oct 19, 2018)

Are you sure it's Puce, thought it looked amber & maybe the light artificially effecting color? LEON.


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## jarhead67 (Oct 24, 2018)

hemihampton said:


> Are you sure it's Puce, thought it looked amber & maybe the light artificially effecting color? LEON.



Yup, you're right. Amber looks right. Amazing how it looks after I came back and looked at it again. Maybe my monitor was toning on me. Or maybe a trip to my ophthalmologist is in order.


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