# COCA COLA QUESTION / QUANDARY



## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

I know I'm jumping the gun on this one, but I'm so excited it couldn't wait!

 I stumbled into an antique shop today, and lo and behold they had a late 1800s or very early 1900s wooden Coca Cola case that was used to transport "Hutchinson" Coca Cola bottles. It had a wood lid with metal hinges and metal closing clasp. I have never seen anything like it. It is as original as it gets, and on a scale of 1 to 10 I would give it a 7.5.  Inside the case it has a lower shelf that has 24 small holes used to place the Hutchinson bottle "tops" into. Thus allowing them to be transported upside down as was the norm for Hutch bottles back then. Many of you are familiar with these cases even without seeing photos of them.

 And this brings me to part of my quandary. I took photos of the case with my cell phone, but at present I am unable to download the photos until I get the proper cord or whatever else I need to do it. But I am currently working on that.

 In the meantime I was hoping some of you may be able to help me establish a value on it. If I get a shot at it I don't want to pay too much. Plus, the dealer just got it in a couple of days ago and has not even priced it yet. They said they wanted to do some research of their own first, just as I am doing here.

          I will get the photos posted as soon as possible. Otherwise all I can tell you about it at present is ...

 1.   It is a solid piece made of wood slats.
 2.   It has a hinged lid and metal closure.
 3.   It has original red paint overall with white lettering that reads ...

                                               Return Bottles When Empty To

                                  The Inland Coca Cola Bottling Company - Boise, Idaho

 4.  On the inside it is stamped by the company who made. Which reads ...

                                       McFerson & Foster Co. -  Evansville, Indiana

 5.  It has cut-out hand holes on both ends.

 If this is something you are familiar with please let we know what you think something like it would be worth?  Even some speculating would be welcome at this point. I will post photos of it just as soon as I possibly can. The dealer said it would take him at least until Monday before he came up with a firm price on it. And here is the clincher ... "He doesn't even know what it is yet!"  []  

     Thanks to all who take an interest in this and especially to those of you who choose to comment.

                                SODAPOPBOB ... a.k.a.  "Wild Goose Chaser" ???


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## TJSJHART (Jan 20, 2011)

BOB, CAN YOU SEND PICTURES IN AN E-MAIL TO YOUR PUTER ? JUST AN IDEA.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

TJSJHART  ~

 I send internet messages to my e-mail all the time. But the photos of the case I have are on my cell phone. At present I don't even have the necessary cord I need to attach my cell to my computer.

 Were you referring to the above or something else? I am wide open for suggestions. But whatever I do it will likely have to wait a couple of days.  Plus, cell phones and I don't exactly agree with each other. Too many dang "options"  []  (But I will figure it out eventually).

 I also wanted to mention I have been searching the internet and so far I can't find zilch on the exact box. Lot's of "similars" from the 1930s and 40s, but nothing as old as the turn of the century. I'm not kidding you, my heart dropped to my stomach when I saw it! 

 The best part is the dealer told me he couldn't find anything out about it on the internet. He thinks it's something from the 1940s.   Hmmm ... that should work in my favor (I hope). ???

 Mucho Grasis'

 SPBOB


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## celerycola (Jan 20, 2011)

These so-called "Hutchinson" cases with the holes in the bottom were not exclusively for Hutch bottles. When crown bottles came into use bottlers continued to buy and use this type of case because it was easy to make sure they received only their bottles back by glancing over the bottle bottoms where their trade mark was embossed.

 When Coca-Cola published their Standardization Guidelines in 1928 they pictured the new color scheme on a case with the holes.

 I've seen these cases marked Coca-Cola priced from $50 to $200. The lid on this one is a nice feature and so is the non-standard color scheme. Is Coca-Cola in script or block?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

Celery  ~

 Thank you for the helpful information. The idea of transporting straight-sided and/or contour bottles up-side-down is new to me, but I acknowledge your expertise in this regard. 

 The script is cursive as shown in my sketch below, and is white atop the overall red of the box itself.

 Another curious aspect is that the metal latch on the lid snaps shut and has a small hole in it where a paddlock might have gone. Plus, because of the latch (that protrudes up about 1/2") it seems unlikely that another box of the same type could be stacked on top of it. The bottom is flat with no cavity or anything else to accommodate the latch if one box were placed on top of another.

 The dealer (who doesn't know yet what the box was used for) speculated that because of the locking latch it might have been a salesmen's box of somekind. 

 I sent the images from my cell phone to my brother's cell phone. He is working on it now to try and download the images from his phone to his computer and then send them back to me in an e-mail. 

 In the meantime I am trying to research the dates involving the "Inland Coca Cola Bottling Co." of Boise, Idaho. If I can determine when they started their operation it might help establish an appx. date.

 If you have any information on the Boise bottler, I would very much like to know about it. So far I have not been able to find any dates for that particular bottler.

       I will post photos of the box just as soon as my brother and I can figure out how to do it.

 Thanks again,

 SPBOB

 Sketch I did from my 1 1/2" cell phone screen.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

I still have not found any dates for the Boise, Idaho Coca Cola Bottling Company. But I researched the McFerson & Foster Co. and discovered they were a box factory in Evansville, Indiana and that they were established in 1883 and closed in 1962.

 I also discovered there was an Owens-Illinois glass plant in Evansville ... but no dates on that yet. The image below is an old sketch of the glass plant.

 SPBOB


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## splante (Jan 20, 2011)

nice crate...a lot of cases usally have a date stamped inside somewhere, If you get it for a decent price i would go for it. The 50 to 200 range celery suggest seems pretty good for early coke items


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

Splante  ~  Thanks

      I haven't mentioned this yet, but I know the dealer is going to want "at least" $100.00 for it.

 Something that continues to puzzle me about the upside-down part is it "appears" that straight-sided and/or contour bottles would flop around somewhat and bang into each other. Whereas Hutchinson bottles might fit a little more snuggly. This is pure speculation of course, but still a valid point in my un-educated opinion.  

 I'm hoping to go back over there later today (if the dealer will allow me) and experiment by trying various bottles (I have all three. A non-Coca Cola Hutch - and both a straight-sided and contour Coca Cola) and see how well they fit into the holes and how much clearance remains above them when the lid is closed. But I admit I'm not sure this will actually tell me anything specific as I suspect the "clearance" aspect will work for all three bottles. But the "flopping around" aspect may be another story. I think it really depends on the true diameter of the 24 holes, etc. 

 If and when I do get back over there, I will be sure to look for any dates. Plus I will take my camera along for some descent photos. I'm just waiting to hear from my brother about the cell phone images before deciding what to do.

 SPBOB

 P.S.  I just this minute decided to call the dealer and see what they might have come up with so far. I will report back shortly if I am able to get ahold of them.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

I just called the dealer and they said it would be okay for me to try my little experiment. So unless my brother gets the photos to me real soon, this will be the last you hear from me until I get back from the antique shop. 

 However, the dealer reminded me that he has another individual (and possibly more than one) who are also interested in purchasing the box. So things could get a little tricky - meaning it might end up being a "Best Offer" situation. 

 I hope my research and attempts to purchase it are not in vain. Please keep your fingers crossed for me.  If nothing else - at least this is a good (true) treasure hunting story.  []   I just wish I knew for certain how old the box is and what it's worth?  That's the $64.00 question!  

 SPBOB


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## RED Matthews (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi Bob;  I was impressed by your illustration of he Evansville O-I plant.  That picture has to be before 1900 because there is no Robinson Ventilators on the building.  Thanks - because I keep collecting old glass factory pictures. Red Matthews


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## celerycola (Jan 20, 2011)

From page 67 of 

 Coca-Cola Bottlers' Standards

 published in 1929.

 According to Munsey the Inland Coca-Cola Bottling Company started in 1915.
 (Boise's Nye Pharmacy was advertising Coca-Cola at their fountain as early as 1898 but it shared billing with 'Kola Celery'.)


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## morbious_fod (Jan 20, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> These so-called "Hutchinson" cases with the holes in the bottom were not exclusively for Hutch bottles. When crown bottles came into use bottlers continued to buy and use this type of case because it was easy to make sure they received only their bottles back by glancing over the bottle bottoms where their trade mark was embossed.
> 
> ...


 
 I agree. I have also ran into these style boxes from certain local bottlers that I know were only around during the crown top era.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

I just got back from taking some photos of the box with my digital camera. My brother was able to do the cell phone download, but the photos turned out blurry. But the ones to follow should make up for it.

 In case anyone intends to comment soon, please give me about 15 minutes to post about six photos. They will tell the story about the box better than I can. 

 Notice in the photo of the side where it has the number 404. I know this is a Root Glass number, but I am not sure yet if there is a connection between the box and the Root Glass Factory. I am trying not to speculate too much here. But even if the 404 number is pure coincidence (which I believe it is) the experiment I did (and explain below) should help shed at least a little light on what type of bottles the box was intended for. 

 Regarding the experiment I did (see related photo) I placed three bottles in the box â€¦ which included a Hutchinson - a 1910 Straight-side - and a 1915 hobbleskirt. (Shown left to right). The result of which was the Hutch and 1910 bottles rested well below the top edge of the box. But the 1915 hobbleskirt was slightly too tall (by about 1/8 inch) and the lid came to rest on it when closed. Iâ€™m not sure this is conclusive of anything, but it suggest that it was not intended for hobbleskirts, leaving the straight-sided bottles as the most likely candidates for the box's intent. (Question mark).

 I have more research results to share, but for the time being please look over the photos and see what you think. I titled each photo the best I could. Plus, I have lowered the condition from 7.5 to 6.0.

 Again, please allow me a little time to post my photos. I will indicate my last photo when I'm done.

 Thanks a lot.

 SPBOB

 Back side showing hinges - the back is in better shap than the front.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

Looking down inside of the box with my three bottles in place.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

Side of box with 404 ... and ... A


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

Closeup of latch on front of lid. Another box would not stack on it too good (if at all).


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

(Last photo) Box mfg. maker's mark stamped on the back wall of the inside. This company was in operation from 1883 to 1964.

 Soooo ... What do you think?  How old is it and what is it worth?

 Mucho Gracias' to everyone .  []

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

I just found out that (according to Coca Cola researcher, Cecil Munsey) the "Inland Coca Cola Bottling Company of Boise, Idaho" began operation in ...

                                                                ~  1915  ~


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

All things considered, if I have a shot at purchasing it on Monday, I believe it will end up at ...


                                                         $150.00 minimum
                                                         $200.00 maximum

                                Let's take a vote based on everything we know so far.

        YES :  Buy it in this price range?                        NO :  It's too much in this price range?

                               (And could it possibly sell on e-bay for $250.00-plus?)

                                                                 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

~ IN CONCLUSION ~

 First ... I want to acknowledge celerycola for coming up with the 1915 I.C.C.B.C. date first.

 Second ... All of the e-mail inquiries I sent out have been answered now, and according to extremely reliable sources the 404 on the box has no connection whatsoever to the straight-sided Root bottles that have 404 embossed on the heels. But that the box was likely intended for straight sided bottes of some kind from somewhere.

 Third ... The box was likely intended for use as a transport case for filled bottles to be delivered to area grocers and markets from the bottler. And to be returned to the bottler when it was refilled with empty bottles.

 Fourth ... A reasonable date for when the box was made can safely be set at  ... Circa 1915-1920. 

                  Which leaves the following categories in question regarding it's collectibility ... 

                                          ?   Supply - Demand - Rarity - Value   ?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 20, 2011)

~  CORRECTION  ~

 In the second column I meant to say ... used for straight sided bottles "initially" and then later used for the 1915/1917 and later Hobbleskirts.  []   It was likely "used" for many, many years.

 SPBOB


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## wonkapete (Jan 21, 2011)

Hey Bob, I wouldn't be so quick to jump on it for those amounts.  The Coca-Cola script looks like a stencil to me, over a sloppy red paint job.  Now I agree the box is old and original, but that outside paint appears to be a lot newer.


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## wonkapete (Jan 21, 2011)

I have several boxes from turn of the century and they simply didn't have stencil look to them.  Here's one I bought from Petretti years ago, it's actually pictured in his book.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

Wonka ~

 Thanks. I hear what you're saying. By the way, do you have a closeup photo of the latch on your case?  Below is the one on the case I have been looking at. I can't quite make out the details on your's, but they look real similar.

 SPBOB


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## wonkapete (Jan 21, 2011)

Yep, it's the same type of latch.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

wonka  ~

 Thanks. That's interesting. But I'm not sure what it tells us. Maybe nothing. I think it's mysteries like this that make collecting - researching, and everything that goes with the hobby so worthwhile. It's too bad I can't get my hands on that case for about $50.00. I'd be willing to gamble at least that much no matter how old the dang thing might be. But I just know someone else is going to end up with it. Oh well, there are more fish in the sea. Right?

 Thanks again,

 Bob


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## splante (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi soda pop 
 I think the type of nail used shows some evidence of it being around the 20's. looks like a round wire nail which first were used around 1915.The boxes construction to me anyway seems to fall into that time frame of 20's to 30's No expert but if the nails were square or rectangular shape it would date earlier. You can still buy square nails today but you can tell the diffrence of the Modern machine  made ones. compared to the pre 1910 ones .below an excerpt from believe it or not... the history of nails



 "1820 -1910 (machine made square and rectangular nails )which is consider the peak manufacture and use of this type nail.  According to a couple of sources, nails were first made by blacksmiths who hammered them into shape (dating back to Roman times), then they were cut from sheets of metal and finally by machines that tapered them and created the flat rectangular heads.   

 After about 1920, wire nails (round) came into use.  They were cheaper and much faster to make since they could be completely made by machine.  Interestingly, the old square nails can hold more than four times better than the more modern round ones.  Some of the old square nails were so valuable that old buildings were burned down just to retrieve the nails."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

splante  ~

 Thanks. But now I'm wondering (speculating) if the Inland bottling people didn't just buy up a bunch of old second-hand (turn of the century) cases and then slap some red paint and their own stenciled name on them? That would explain both the sloppy paint job and the latch. As for the nails, I really can't say. But what you say makes sense, too. Who knows?  I sure don't!  []

 SPBOB


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## celerycola (Jan 21, 2011)

A hundred years ago the National Bottler's Gazette and Southern Carbonator & Bottler had numerous articles from and for bottlers on keeping track of their bottles and cases. Most bottlers numbered their cases and many even noted the case# delivered on their invoice. 404 was likely the tracking number of this particular box. (It is just coincidence that 404 was the ROOT mold number for the Coca-Cola Hutch from Birmingham)

 Cases with lids were more expensive and not typically used for local delivery by the bottler. They were used for out-of-town deliveries by train or other common carrier where it would have been easy for someone to steal a free drink from an open case.

 Since Standardization didn't come until 1929 (at the beginning of the Great Depression) I suspect it was several years before most bottlers had switched to the new paint scheme. This crate could easily date to the 1930's.

 I see crates from this period in this condition priced from $50 to $100. The lid is a nice feature and adds some value. It comes down to what you're willing to pay.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

Celery  ~

 You and the others have all contributed some very valid points, and ones that cannot be ignored. And I agree with them all the way down the line. When I added the words "who knows" to my last reply, I meant it as a literal question that I am glad you responded to. It's obvious that I need help here in more ways than one. (No pun intended).  []

 If I were a history detective (like the TV program on the PBS channel) I think the next thing I would do would be to do some extensive research on the box itself. Which would involve (if possible) to try and determine exactly when it was made. I would start with the latch and hinges and see if a date could be established as to when they were first used, as well as when they were last used. I would also research in detail the nails and wood itself. If (big IF) it were determined that these materials were in fact turn of the century, then I would move on to researching the company who made the case. We already know the company was established in 1883, so I would start with that date and then move forward from there.

 I think everyone knows where I am going with this. So rather than drag it out any farther, I will jump right to the punch line. Which is ... There is a "possibility" that the case may have been constructed before the Inland Coca Cola Bottling Co. of Boise, Idaho obtained it. With another "possibility" that they standardized it (in 1929 or later as Celercola said) by re-painting it and applying their stenciled name to it. Which brings us full circle the the "quandary" part of the title. Meaning ... let's say it is a 1910 (or thereabouts) case with a 1930s revamping done to it. Where does this place it as far as a genuine Coca Cola collectible is concerned?  Personally, I think it would make it just that much more interesting, but certainly not worth top dollar as wonkapete's case would be that is original and not tampered with.

 Please note that I am not trying to make something out of nothing here. I have no vested interest and the likelyhood of my purchasing the case at this point is slim to none. And if it were to be offered to me, I think the most I would pay at this point would be about $75.00 (maybe $100.00).

 And in conclusion, the one thing more than anything else that still confuses me, is in regards to the test I did with the three bottles. The 1915 hobbleskirt was simply too tall for the box, and if it contained a total of 24 botles, I honestly feel it would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) to close and latch the lid properly.  ???

 Maybe we should call the "History Detectives" and have them take a look at it. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

 Thanks for letting me ramble. I hope my observations are considered valid as well as interesting.

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

I totally agree with celerycola in that the number 404 has nothing to do with the Root bottles that used the same number. Plus, I also asked Bill Porter about it and he said the same thing ..."Coincidence and nothing more."

 The primary reason for this particular post is to share the photo below that I took at the antique shop yesterday. Look close and on the inside of the lid between the hinges you will see the number 404 again in what appears to have been done with a blue grease pencil of some type. But exactly why it is there or when it was done I do not have the slightest idea, and can only speculate. But I will admit it is kind of interesting if nothing else.

 I also want to take this opportunity to acknowledge celerycola's contribution regarding the use of the case with a locking feature for out-of-area shipments. That makes totally logical sense to me and I have no doubt it is 100% accurate. Thanks Celery.

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

I spoke with the antique dealer this morning who has the case. He has established a $125.00 price for it, with at least one potential buyer ahead of me who told the dealer to hold it for him. It will not result as a best offer situation, but rather as a first in line to show an interest in buying it, which obviously wasn't me.

 So that will likely be the last I see or hear about it, unless the so called buyer reneges on his promise to purchase it. Based on what I know about the case personally, I'd say that is a fair price and doubt that anyone would expect to get it for less.

 If anything else develops, I will be sure to post it. And you can be sure I will let everyone know if the case happens to turn up on e-bay anytime soon. That was certainly my intent all along. 

 But at least we know a little more about it. Which is likely more than the average e-bay buyer would know unless they happen to see the rusults of this chat forum. And if that should occur, and you are the buyer and reading this, please leave us a reply and say "hello."  (You just never now - it's a small world).  []  

 Thanks again

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 21, 2011)

Here's a photo I almost forgot about and should help illustrate what I was trying to explain about the 1915 hobbleskirt being too tall. I wish I had given this some more thought earlier, because the photo is a little deceiving and due to the camera angle it doesn't really show the hobbleskirt (on the far right) protruding about 1/8" above the top edge of the case. I hope everyone trust me when I say that when I lowered the lid, the lid hit the top of the hobbleskirt. Whereas the Hutch on the left and the 1910 bottle in the center have ample clearance. And, yes, I pushed all three bottles as snugly into the holes as they would go. Just more food for thought on what is beginning to have all the ear-marks of being ... "A NEVER-ENDING STORY"   []

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

The dealer called recently to inform me that the case was sold to another individual for $125.00. Had that buyer not purchased it I would have been the next in line ... and would gladly had paid that much. I think it could sell on e-bay for more. ???

                                    Here is a quote from Celerycola posted earlier ...

 Cases with lids were more expensive and not typically used for local delivery by the bottler. They were used for out-of-town deliveries by train or other common carrier where it would have been easy for someone to steal a free drink from an open case.

                              And below is a page from a 1926 Illinois Glass catalog ...

 If you would like to read it for yourself more easily, just change the zoom level (located on most desk-tops in the lower right corner of your screen where it shows + 100%) to about 200%, and it will enlarge the image.

                        But if you don't have that feature, the wording reads as follows ... 

 [Top] Reads ... 

 The Hinged Cover Soda Case meets all freight and express requirements, and obtains the lowest rates on shipping of beverages.

 [Lower Right Case] ... Reads

 No. 3 1/2 style shipping case. A perforated bottom case without racks, carrying bottles neck down - complete with lock and hinges.

                                                                  ~ * ~ 

 These particular cases were made in the box division of the Illinois Glass Company. The one in question here was made by the McFerson & Foster Co. - Evansville, Indiana.

 There is no doubt in my mind that the hinges came from the same manufacturer. But as for the locking feature, I can't make it out well enough on the catalog box, but I'd guess they are the same or similar. I have seen a variety of other locks that were offered as an option.

 The bottom line here is that these types of locking cases with lids were still available and definitely being used at least up until 1926 and likely later.

 But when they were originally introduced I do not know, other than wonkapete's turn of the century case and the one in question have the same type of latch/lock. But whatever the actual date may be for when the one I was looking at was made is irrelevant now, as I am sure I will never see it again. But it is still an interesting topic of discussion, especially for someone like myself who loves a good mystery.

 Thanks again to all who have followed this thread, and especially to those who contributed comments.

 SPBOB

 {From a 1926 Illinois Glass Catalog} {Note the similarity of the hinges}


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

P.S.  ~

 I forgot to mention that I shared everything I know about the case with the antique dealer, who in turn shared it with the buyer. The dealer said that the buyer was very appreciative to have the information, as he knew very little (if anything) about the case beforehand, and that it was just another example of someone "having to have it."  Hmmm ... where have I heard those words before?  []

 The dealer also said that he felt bad because I had done so much research but did not get the case. I told him ... "It was no problem whatsoever, and that I love doing this type of research and was glad I could be of help." 

 I also told the dealer to give the buyer my cell phone number in case he had any more questions or ever wanted to sell the case. So maybe it's not the last I have seen of it after all.

 SPBOB


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## celerycola (Jan 27, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> {From a 1926Â Illinois Glass Catalog}
> ...


 
 Where did you find the 1926 catalog?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Celery  ~

 I will share mine with you if you share one of yours with me.  Lol  [] (Just kidding / Sort of).

 Actually, I'm sure you have had the website right at your finger tips all along. But it is so extensive I doubt many people have ever read every aspect of it. I know I haven't ... not yet anyway.

 The following link will take you to the indext page where it list the "entire" contents of the 1926 catalog. Just scroll about half-way down the page to where it says "Soda Packing Cases & Materials." (Shipping).

 Look around a little and you will also find a listing for a 1906 Illinois Glass catalog. But I did not see the case in question listed there.

 Have fun, and we will see ya in a couple of years, as I think that's how long it would take to review the entire website. I have communicated with Bill Lindsey many times, and some of the ACL information I have provided him and Bill Lockhart with "may" be included in an upcoming article/book on early acl sod bottles they are currently working on. (But which may take some time before it is completed. They are supposed to let me know when it's done).

 Bob

 Link:   http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

P.S.  ~

 I forgot to mention that it also shows a 1920 catalog that I am studying now.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

P.S. ~  P.S.

 Yep!  The 1920 catalog shows the same bottle case. Now I'm wondering how far back in time it goes?

 Bob


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## celerycola (Jan 27, 2011)

1910 Illinois Glass ad from the National Bottler's Gazette:



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> P.S. ~Â  P.S.
> 
> ...


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## Dragon0421 (Jan 27, 2011)

I am not for sure but i have been told that some of the crates were used on the railroad to ship the bottles to the other towns. I have 2 that look like that but they dont have the lid the one on the left looks like it had a lid at one time but not for sure just thought i would share with some variety on the crates i think 125 was alittle high for it though just my ideas on the manner. Great info and great topic love to see the coke stuff


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## Dragon0421 (Jan 27, 2011)

inside of the crates


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Celery  ~

 Thanks. Very interesting. The second case from the left (No. 3 1/2 style) must be the same one from the 1920 and 1926 catalogs. We may never know for sure, but because of my test with placing various bottles in the case itself, it still leads me to suspect it was originally intended for straight-side (non contour) bottles. The contour's (although patented in 1915) didn't actually hit the markets until about 1917. 

 Dragon0421  ~

 Thanks for stopping by and sharing your photos. If you happened to miss it, Celerycola commented on the railroad aspect earlier, and I'd say it is "almost certain" that the case in question was likely intended for that purpose involving out-of-town shipments on either the railroad - truck, or both. And, like Celery pointed out, the locking feature was most likely designed to keep would-be thieves from helping themselves to free bottles of Coca Cola.

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Dragon0421  ~

 P.S.   Regarding my willingness to have paid the $125.00, is because I would have paid that much on the gamble of it being from the turn-of-the-century or early teens. Which I know doesn't mean that T.O.C. items are worth that much. But if it was confirmed to be a super early case, I bet some e-bay buyer would be willing to pay as much as $300.00 for it. We all know how many Coca Cola collectors there are, and how passionate they are about early items. (All speculation, of course, but a gamble I would have been willing to take).

 If I had the case in my posession to closely examine, I might even try to very carefully remove one of the hinges and/or the latch/lock and see if there were some identifying numbers on them. If so, that might solve this mystery once and for all. Plus, there may even be some old stinciling under the newer red paint that tells where it originally came from. But, all things considered, I doubt I will ever have the opportunity to do any of that. Even though I will always wonder about it.

 SPBOB


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## morbious_fod (Jan 27, 2011)

Actually someone on here owns one of the rail road shipping boxes from Coca-Cola of Danville, VA and it is larger capacity and made of metal. There is a Lemon Kola one on my Lemon Kola story site with Roanoke, VA on it which is also made of metal, and most likely was used for the same purpose. I would have to believe that a wooden box could have been broken into fairly easily even locked, so most likely the metal boxes would have provided a bit more security. That doesn't mean that the wooden ones with latched lids weren't used for this purpose by smaller bottlers, they certainly seemed to be used by the Damascus Bottling Works into the late 1920's, but they were most likely using them for multifunction purposes.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Morb ~ Thanks

 You're right. Multifunction is no doubt a bigger part of the picture here. I based my earlier assumption on the Illinois Glass catalog description where it referred to these "types" of cases where it said ...

 "The Hinged Cover Soda Case meets all freight and express requirements, and obtains the lowest rates on shipping of beverages."

 I was/am assuming that "express" is referring to railroads and/or long distance truck shipments. And especially to the part where it refers to "rates." Of course, we are talking about Illinois Glass bottle cases and not the one in question that was made by the McFerson & Foster Co. But the two appear to be so similar that they could be cousins.

 My next area of research (and one I expect to be diffifcult) involves anything and everything I can find on the McFerson & Foster Company of Evansville, Indiana. It's possible there are records to indicate when they made this type of box, and when they might have had contracts with Coca Cola and/or other soda bottlers to manufacture them. All I know at present is they were in operation between 1883 and 1964. If I were a history detective, I would put all or most of my eggs in this particular basket of research. I believe the final answer will be found there. Which brings me to another question ...

                              "Why do I always pick the tough ones to research?"

                                                            []

                                                         SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't want to get too crazy with this, but just in case someone has better research skills than I, and who might have access to old company records and the like, here is something that I found on the McFerson & Foster (Box) Company that may help. I'm not sure what it all means yet, but there may be a clue there somewhere that will lead to other clues. I think parts of it was written years ago. Either that or whoever wrote it was drunk.  []  

 Thanks

 SPBOB

 From Internet ...

 1883 selected site near Helfrich and Rechtin mill to build factory burned 1890 rebuilt Mcferson & Foster Co. 1922 plants east side of Belt RR from virginia to Iowa (original site) and Belt RR to 9th Franklin to Michigan (Hoosier stamping) [1922] expanded offices? Office 706 W Michigan [1922] south side of Michigan between 9th and Bellevue (Hoosier stamping) Bellevue Virginia Iowa McFerson and Foster Co., 1826 W. Michigan St., Mcferson and Foster box factory [1884] southeast corner of Bellevue and Iowa 1937 flood picture still Mcferson & Foster gone by 1962.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Hmmm ... This is getting interesting. From the same website as my last reply I discovered there was a Coca Cola bottling plant just a few blocks away from the McFerson & Foster Box Company in Evansville, Indiana. Here is some of that weird lingo again like the last one ...

 "Coca Cola bottling Company established 1904 927 Penn St, 901-931 Penn between 2nd and 3rd http://englers.net/photos/2008/2008-03-24%20=%20More%20Old%20Buildings/IMG_5789.JPG [1922] Coca-Cola bottling works 300 east Penn expanded or rebuilt? c. 1914 blocked by the Lloyd expressway."

 The link is the accompanying photo that is shown on the same site. But no dates yet on the start up or possible closure of this particular Coca Cola bottling plant. But that shouldn't be too difficult for someone to come up with.

  Help!  []

 Thanks again

 SPBOB


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## CreekWalker (Jan 27, 2011)

sodapopbob , I enjoy a good mystery! I believe you did a great job of detective investigation into the case's origin and validity. However, If $125 was the "hold it for me" price, wouldn't $145 be the "buy in right now" price.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

Please don't pay too much attention to some of this as it is likely to develop into another ...

                                                       "Never-ending Story"

 I just realized that the Evansville Coca Cola bottling plant was established in 1904. I must have spaced out on my last reply because I initially thought that 1904 927 Penn St was an address and also a date.

 Anyway, I will continue my research along these lines and see if I can find a connection of somekind between the box factory - the bottling plant - and Boise, Idaho. It may be a long and winding road, so please don't think ill of me if I get lost from time to time. To aid in my research I am also sending out e-mail inquiries to everyone in Evansville, Indiana who is in anyway related to historical research. And if and when I find anything of interest, I will be sure to let you know.

 Thanks

 SPBOB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 27, 2011)

CreekWalker  ~

 Thanks for the support. I hear ya ... 

 Actually, I offered the dealer $150.00 for it at one point, but he declined it saying that he had already "promised" it to someone else. The dealer guy actually wanted me to have it because of all the time and research I had done on it. He even felt bad when the buyer stopped in to pay for it and pick it up.

              So I guess it's just another case of being $50.00 too much and a day too late!  [] 

                                                                  SPBOB


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 22, 2012)

Dear Soda, I'm on a similar quest for information on Coca-Cola hutch boxes.I recently purchased one and I think the paint scheme is questionable. But I would like to first address/discuss your questions about Evansville,IN.As being a native resident of Evansville and a bottle collector I have researched the companies mentioned in your article.The Libby-Owens Glass company was once the Graham Glass Works, which if you own a straight sided or Hobble-skirt Coke with manufacture code starting with EG it was produced with one of their molds, to my knowledge they did not manufacture hutches for Coke,if someone knows differently I would be interested in that discussion. Some of their buildings still stand although the facades have changed. The Coca-Cola plant still exists at the same address you mentioned. I also have a hutch crate manufactured by McFersen & Foster although it appears to be a city delivery model as it does not have a hinged lid,in fact it was my research of this crate manufacturer that lead me to your article.I purchased this crate based on it was designed to carry hutches and I like the idea of storing my collection in period containers.Upon further examination I noticed the McFersen & Foster stamp from Evansville, wow! imagine that  I purchased a item from someone in Crown Point,Indiana that advertised a product from Ohio in a crate that was actually made by a company from my home town,what are the odds of that happening?  I'll leave the discussion of my coke crate for later as my photo files are to large to upload. 

 Tim

 http://www.historicevansville.com/site.php?id=grahamglass


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 22, 2012)

SPB,
         I've attempted to attach photo of my O-Cola hutch crate, it was a Coca-Cola knock-off manufactured by The Western Ohio Bottling Works Van Wert,Ohio. This is the crate made by McFersen & Foster that I mentioned previously.Another thing of interest is the O-Cola advert was painted over the top of another company's name -Puraq,which was a water distiller in Ft. Wayne,In. Again I say I attempted to attach,it showed upload successful but I cannot see attachment.I'll try to send my Coca-Cola crate next

                                                       Tim


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 22, 2012)

SPB,  I paid a little over $100.00 for what now I feel is a re-painted Coca-Cola hutch crate. Note the painted interior and the brightness of the paint, most examples I have found do not have painted interior.It makes me feel someone repainted original Coca-Cola or took another company's crate and painted over original name.I have noticed some crates I own were made for taller bottles and I did the same comparison with hutches and straight sides and thought maybe they redesigned crates for dual use with crown finished bottles but I have also found they made numerous sizes of hutches so that theory does not hold water or soda in this case.
                                                                                Tim


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## Andrewt (Dec 22, 2012)

Congrats, I like it!


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## celerycola (Dec 23, 2012)

If you have read the entire thread you know that most of these so-called "Hutchinson Crates" never went anywhere near a Hutch bottle. The reason initials or brand names are on the bottom of most Crown soda bottles well into the 1930's is they were packed bottom up in these crates with the holes for the necks. A quick look at the bottoms of the bottles would tell the bottler whether he had his own bottles returned. 

 Your Coca-Cola crate exactly matches the red/yellow color scheme adopted by Coca-Cola Standardization Committee in 1929. Their 1929 report includes pictures posted earlier of a typical 1929 soda crate with the holes in the bottom. Your Coke crate was likely re-painted in the 1930's to match Coca-Cola Company Standards. 

 I love the O-Cola crate. I've seen a lot of O-Cola bottles but never a Hutch. I'm sure this one was made for the crown O-Cola bottles I see at bottle shows. 




> ORIGINAL:  fer_de_lance
> 
> SPB,  I paid a little over $100.00 for what now I feel is a re-painted Coca-Cola hutch crate. Note the painted interior and the brightness of the paint, most examples I have found do not have painted interior.It makes me feel someone repainted original Coca-Cola or took another company's crate and painted over original name.I have noticed some crates I own were made for taller bottles and I did the same comparison with hutches and straight sides and thought maybe they redesigned crates for dual use with crown finished bottles but I have also found they made numerous sizes of hutches so that theory does not hold water or soda in this case.
> Tim


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 28, 2012)

fer_de_lance ~

 I apologize for taking so long to reply but for some reason I didn't get an email notification and just by accident noticed your posting. 

 Please use this link in regards to my following comments. The link is to a 1906 Illinois Glass catalog.

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco_1906.htm

 1.  Scroll to the Soda bottle pages (especially pages 240-241) and you'll notice that Hutchinson bottles were still available in 1906.
 2.  Scroll to the Boxes pages (especially pages 266-267) and you'll notice a similar box to mine - item(s) No. 3 and No. 3 1/2
 3.  I realize my box was made by the McFerson & Foster Company of Evansville, Indiana, but I just wanted to point out that similar boxes were being offered at the time, and were very possibly intended for Hutchinson bottles as well as Crowns. Notice the small holes in the boxes pictured below and that it also shows bottles placed upside down.

 Celery ~

 I'm no expert on Hutchinson bottles nor on shipping boxes, but I am a little confused where you stated ...

 "most of these so-called "Hutchinson Crates" never went anywhere near a Hutch bottle."

 Maybe I'm assuming incorrectly, but based on the 1906 catalog it seems probabale that Hutchinson bottles were shipped in boxes. What exactly do you mean by your comment above?

 Thanks to both of you.

 Bob

 [ Hutch Bottles From Catalog ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 28, 2012)

[ Boxes From Catalog ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 28, 2012)

PS ~

 Once you open the link to the 1906 catalog and it's various pages, be sure and notice that you can double-click on any given page and zoom in on it for details.

 Bob


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## fer_de_lance (Dec 29, 2012)

Bob, 
 Thanks for the great link to catalog.I agree with you that boxes could have been used for either bottle finish.I call them hutch boxes as I feel the perforated bottoms were originally designed for that style bottle finish, whether or not the boxes in question actually held them we will never know.I have yet to confirm that The Western Ohio Bottling Works produced a hutch with O-Cola embossed on it, however the "HutchBook" site lists a hutch embossed The Western Ohio /Bottling Works/Van Wert,OHIO. I've also included address for Cecil Munsey's site, look in misc douments for 1885 National Bottler's Gazette- shipping and peddling boxes for beer,ale,soda bottles etc. cases. I think that indicates at an early date why boxes were designed in this fashion. 

                                                            Best Regards,
                                                                Tim

 www.hutchbook.com

 http://cecilmunsey.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=25&limit=20&limitstart=0&order=name&dir=ASC&Itemid=37


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2012)

f_d_l ~

 I looked around to see if I could find a reference to an O-Cola hutchinson bottle, but didn't find anything. As for the Cecil Munsey link you provided, which I am familiar with and even met Cecil at a bottle show once, one thing is for certain; In 1885 there were no Crown top soda bottles, which weren't invented until 1892 by William Painter, so the Wilson's boxes undoubtedly were intended for hutchinson bottles.

 Even though I was unable to purchase that particular red box, which was the primary topic of this thread, I will always wonder whether it was a Hutch box or not. And because I was never able to examine it closely enough, I will also never know if the more recent looking stenciling was painted over some older brand name. 

 However, notice in the picture of the red box below ...

 1.  The Hinges.
 2.  The wording ... "When Empty Return To"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2012)

And now compare the hinges and the wording on this Coca Cola box from Alan Petretti's book ... plus the date he indicates.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 30, 2012)

PS ~

 Reminder ...

 I researched the McFerson & Foster Company and discovered they were a box factory in Evansville, Indiana and were established in 1883 and closed in 1962. 

 Bob


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## celerycola (Jan 1, 2013)

While it has been documented that Hutchinson bottles were in use as late as World War I they were not widely used after 1910-12. Most of these so-called "Hutchinson Crates" were intended for and only used for Crown finish bottles. It cost a bottler extra to have a brand name (Coca-Cola, Chero-Cola, etc.) or his initials (for an independent bottler) cut into a mold so it would appear on his bottles. It was worth it because the bottle bottoms were visible in the industry standard "holes-in-the-bottom" crates. Most of these crates post-dated the use of Hutchinson bottles. 

 Many but not all bottle manufacturers had a crate manufacturing plant alongside the glass factory. If an order was for bottles AND cases the bottles would be packed in the cases. If the order was for bottles only they were packed in barrels with straw for cushioning. There are recorded complaints by some bottlers regarding the number of bottles received broken. Larger bottlers would order their bottles by railcar lots. 


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> Celery ~
> 
> I'm no expert on Hutchinson bottles nor on shipping boxes, but I am a little confused where you stated ...
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

celery ~

 Thanks for the follow up. 

 I think part of my confusion regarding the crates/boxes is because I primarily think of them as being used for bottles distributed from local bottlers to local grocers and not from the bottle maker to the bottler. Isn't that why some of them say "When Empty Return To?" And if they were used between local bottlers and grocers, why would this not have been a practice during the Hutchinson era? Surely they used some type of wood box/crate to transport them around town. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, so please correct me, but I can't help but think what you are saying is that they didn't use wood boxes/crates for Hutchinson bottles. And if not, then what did they use?

 Thanks again

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

This link pertains to both types of boxes for hutchinson bottles ... (Long distance and local)

 http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottling%20Process%20Shipping%20Cases/Default.htm

 [ Long distance example ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

[ Local examples ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

Please be reminded this thread was started two years ago in January of 2011 and that the red box in question is long gone and never to be seen again. As most of you know, I was unable to purchase it. Also know that I have re-read this thread several times and fully aware of the various opinions expressed and that I am not trying to turn what very well may be an early 1900s box into a late 1800s box if the evidence does not support it. However, speaking of such evidence, I am reminded of the test I did back in 2011 when I discovered the lid would not close when it held the 1915 patent hobbleskirts (which were actually first distributed in 1917), but that it would close when it held either straight-sided or hutchinson bottles. Thus, I am still of the opinion that it dates sometime prior to 1917.

 Consequently, I feel the following question is a valid one ...

 Is it even *remotely possible* the red box in question was in fact made during the late 1800s and not the early 1900s and *possibly used* for hutchinson bottles? 

 ( I fully acknowledge it was repainted later with a newer variation of the Coca Cola stenciling typical of the 1920s and 1930s).

 Please note my question does not involve whether the box was intended for long distance or local use, as that is the subject of another aspect, but rather my question only pertains to *when it was made*?

 Lastly, if you feel it could not possibly have been made in the late 1800s and used for hutchinson bottles, please explain to us in detail how you arrived at that conclusion? (Other than just general opinion).

 Thanks again to all

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

I wanted to post this earlier but it took me until now to find the links again. McFerson & Foster can be difficult to research because it is often spelled McP*h*erson with an h. But I generally use the spelling that was on the box itself. Anyway, I mainly wanted to share a couple of references indicating the company was established in the early 1880s, which was during the hutchinson bottle era. I can't find the link from a couple of years ago showing the 1883 date.

 Mcferson and Foster box factory [1884] SE corner of Bellevue and Iowa. [ Evansville, Indiana ]

 http://historicevansville.com/site.php?id=mcfersonfoster


 This next reference is from Google Books and dated 1899  

 http://books.google.com/books?id=7fx6nN0QYXgC&pg=RA8-PA36&dq=McPHerson+%26amp;+Foster+Box+Company+Evansville+Indiana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PMzlUOukB6mFiAKm4ICADw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=McPHerson%20%26amp%3B%20Foster%20Box%20Company%20Evansville%20Indiana&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

PS ~

 Regarding the 1899 Google Books reference, click on the blue "Page 36" for a full image of the page. And from there you can speed scroll to the first page to see the 1899 publication date.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

I apologize for what might seem like an obsession, but since I'm good at that and have nothing better to do this morning, I thought I'd share this picture which took me almost two hours to find. I found lots of similar pictures, but this was the only one showing the wood cases like the one's in question here. The only bummers are ...

 1. No exact date. Simply described as circa early 1900s.
 2. I can't tell whether the cases have lids or not.
 3. Obviously no way of determing the types of bottles.
 4. Horse drawn delivery wagons were still being used at least as late as 1915+

 I realize the picture doesn't prove a thing one way or another, but I still thought it was cool and worth sharing.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

Just for the heck of it I thought I'd share this picture, too ...


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## celerycola (Jan 3, 2013)

I didn't say wood boxes of this type were not used for Hutchinson bottles. My comment was that most of these soda crates with the holes were made and used long after Hutchinson bottles were no longer used. When a high walled crate with 24 holes was pictured in the 1929 Coca-Cola Standardization Guide (pictured earlier in this thread) it was a quarter century after any Coca-Cola bottler used a Hutchinson bottle.

 When you placed a hobbleskirt bottle in the red crate was it an actual 1915 or a newer bottle? There were subtle design changes between the 1915 and 1924 patents, and again for the D patent. A later bottle may have been a perfect fit and helped prove the age of the crate.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> celery ~
> 
> ...


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## celerycola (Jan 3, 2013)

Bob,

 Your insistence that this is a pre-1900 box reminds me of a current ebay auction for a "Pre 1916 Billings Montana Coca Cola Bottle Straight Side Sided MT Coke".

 Because the bottle is similar in style to the early Coke bottles the seller claims an early date for the bottle. Please look at ALL the pics for this listing and tell me if you believe the bottle is "pre 1916."

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pre-1916-Billings-Montana-Coca-Cola-Bottle-Straight-Side-Sided-MT-Coke-/321050166313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac014c429


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

celery ~

 Thanks again for your input. I truly appreciate it. 

 It's not a matter of my insisting the box be turn-of-the-centry, but rather a situation where I am at the age and phase of collecting now where I seek proof positive information as opposed to just accepting opinions and observations without the proof to back it up. I'm not saying you aren't right, because you may very well be. I'm just curious as to how anyone can be 100% certain the red box was not originally intended for hutchinson bottles? The 1929 standardized illustration you referred to is on page one. But it doesn't have a lid. The lid is one of the main things I wonder about. Take for example the case pictured below which is also shown on page two and was contributed by member wonkapete. It too has a lid with an identical lock just like the red one and wonka describes it as "Turn-of-the century." But what if it was repainted with red paint and newer stenciling? What about it other than the original lettering tells us it's a circa 1900 bottle case? Or are wonkapete and Alan Peteretti wrong? Please don't be upset or think ill of me, but I guess when it comes to certain things I am looking for that appraiser who can say without a shadow of a doubt that such and such was made in this or that year "because" .... 

 Regarding you question as to whether it was a 1915/1917 hobbleskirt I tested the box lid with, the answer is yes, it was a patent 1915 bottle, and the lid would not close enough for the latch/lock to catch.

 As for the eBay bottle you referred to, I can't make out all of the numbers, but "because" Owens-Illinois was not established until 1929, then the bottle cannot be any earlier than that.

 Thanks again

 Bob

 [ wonkapete case described as turn-of-the-century ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

For those among us who really want to scratch their noodle over something, check this out ...

 Here's a guy who claims to have been collecting Coca Cola for 42 years and states that his box was used for hutchinson bottles. I could be wrong, but just the paint alone leads me to believe it's newer than that. But then again, maybe he is dating it based on the box construction itself or the bottler it came from. Whichever the case, you'd sure think after 42 years of collecting that he would know a thing or two about Coca Cola stuff.

  http://forsale.oodle.com/view/rare-vintage-coca-cola-wooden-hutchinson-bottle-crate-1888-1902/2952172466-houston-tx/

  Be sure to click on each picture to enlarge it.

 [ Described as circa 1888-1902 ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 3, 2013)

PS ~

 Or is the guy's box just another "case" of mistaken identity?


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## CreekWalker (Jan 3, 2013)

Great forum topic, very interesting! The box may be post straight side coke bottle, and probaly a early pre-1915 hobbleshirt coke bottle. Which was slightly shorter and squat made until the HS pattern was standardized. In which case, the box would be an intermediate pattern and short lived, rare, made after the straight side coke, thus for the shorter pre-1915 standardized hobbleskirt Coke bottle. Notice the 1923 in the center, (dark green) and the shorter amber and standardized 1915 Coke,to each side, the pre-1915 early Coke was as short as the amber or less, but fatter and squat to carry six ozs.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

?


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## CreekWalker (Jan 4, 2013)

Good morning! Then again, originally this box/case was probaly for the 1910 SS Coke bottle, and later used for the Hobbleshirts, 1915, 1923, Pat.D, as the paint was altered to fit the trademark.  I would not think this is for the hutchenson.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

Creek Walker ~

 Despite how it might appear, please believe me when I say I am being opened minded about this. Had it not been for member fer_de_lance resurrecting this thread, I probably would not have given it another thought. But because of the renewed interest, I feel compelled to respond, especially regarding the suggestions that the various boxes with the small holes were also intended for the straight-sided bottles as well as the later hobbleskirts. I can somewhat see the logic of turning the hobbleskirts upside down "because" most of them have the city/state embossed on the base. But when it comes to the straight-sided bottles, that upside down aspect confuses me "because" I am not aware of too many straight-sided Coca Cola bottles that have anything other than Coca Cola  embossed on the base, and rarely a city/state. But then again, maybe it was a practice carried over from the hutchinson era to keep the crown cork wet and sealed. But I think more than anything else that confuses me is my inability to find a single picture of either the straight-sided bottles or the hobbleskirts that show them being cased/shipped/transported in the upside down position. And I haven't forgotten the 1929 standardization illustration on page two which clearly indicates the small holes. I'm just saying I wonder about the actual upside down aspect for bottles other than hutchinson's. So far, every vintage photograph I've seen, including those of horse drawn delivery wagons, always show the bottles in the upright position. 

 Open minded here and just looking for facts.

 Respectfully,

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

Horse Drawn Coca Cola Wagon 1906 ...

 http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-893660/identified-1906-photograph-salisbury-nc-coca-cola-plant-horse-drawn-carriage-old.html


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## CreekWalker (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi Bob, I had lunch today, with a local collector, who has basicly a private museum of Coca-Cola items. I pulled out my laptop afterward, and went to this forum, showing him the box photos. And inquired about his knowledge about this item and the purpose for shipping the bottles upside down. His answer was , he had seen one of the boxes, but it was not a local Coke bottler. The owner said the storage and shipping box, was for transporting to rural towns, on rough roads, the upside down bottles would  not scrub together or rub against the case slats. Thus preserving the paper label on the straight side bottles, and preventing damage , to the colorful paper label. Customers never wanted a worn looking bottle label, as this would corcern them about the freshness of the product. Also the liquid was less likely to escape, thru a wet sealed cork top. The boxes were never intended for use with the later hobbleshirt, but may have been used by frugal local bottlers. Plausible and Makes sense to me, Rick


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 4, 2013)

CW ~

 Thanks for the contribution.

 I am literally walking out the door and only have time to post the following picture. Please study it closely and I will be back later tonight or tomorrow and tell you more about it.

 Bob


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## megaoceanne (Jan 4, 2013)

see this post  coca cola  6 pack war time  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/6-pack-war-time/m-577843/tm.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  megaoceanne
> 
> see this post  coca cola  6 pack war time  https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/6-pack-war-time/m-577843/tm.htm


 
 mega ~

 Welcome to the forum.

 Are you suggesting your thread is in some way related to this one or that you just wanted me to look at your thread personally for some reason?

 By the way, I did look at it and will post a comment later.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

Creek Walker / All Members & Guest

 I acknowledge it is plausible that "one" of the reasons for the perforated holes in the bottoms of the crates was to insure that paper label bottles could be shipped upside down and not rub against one another. I also acknowledge "another" reason for the holes was to allow the bottles to be placed upside down when empty and drain properly. Not to mention various other explanations for the holes, including general shipping purposes and embossed base bottler identification.

 But rather than me going into more gobbledygook and complicating this thread any more than it already is, my primary focus boils down to the following ... (Which pertains to the initial red case from Boise, Idaho that has a lid on it).

 1.  Dating it:  How can it be determined with certainty whether the red case was made in circa 1906 during the still available Hutchinson bottle era, or made in circa 1926 during the primarily Crown bottle era?

 2.  Actual use: Even though there is ample evidence to support that the cases with perforated holes for placing Crown soda bottles in an upside down position were available for a number of years, where are the text references and pictures indicating that it was a common practice by bottlers? (I have spent hours on the Internet looking for text references as well as pictures of upside down Crown soda bottles and have yet to find a single one). 

 Lastly ...

 1.  Show me even one vintage picture of a Crown soda bottle placed upside down in a wood case and I will let this thread fade into oblivion. 

 2.  What is it about the case pictured below that tells us whether it was made in 1906, 1926, or some other year?

 Thanks again to all

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

What is it about the case pictured below that tells us whether it was made in 1906, 1926, or some other year?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

What is it about the case pictured below that tells us whether it was made in 1906, 1926, or some other year?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

Partial answers to last question ...

 Illinois Glass 1906 Catalog
 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco_1906.htm

 1906 Cases
 http://www.sha.org/bottle/Typing/IGCo1906/IGCo1906page266.jpg

 Illinois Glass 1926 Catalog
 http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco1926.htm

 1926 Cases
 http://www.sha.org/bottle/Typing/IGCo1926/page167.jpg



 Now all we gotta do is figure out how to date the red case and we'll be in like Flint. They all look alike to me. 

 Please note I haven't forgotten the Boise, Idaho Coca Cola bottling plant was established in circa 1915, nor that it appears to have been repainted. But when it was "actually made" is still the $64.00 question.  

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

So much for letting this thread fade into oblivion. But I just wanted to add these two additional post as reminders ...

 [ 1 of 2 ]



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> This link pertains to both types of boxes for hutchinson bottles ... (Long distance and local)
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 5, 2013)

[ 2 of 2 ]

 "These two city delivery cases were advertised in the 1889 W. H. Hutchinson & Son Manufacturers and Dealers in Bottlers Supplies catalog"



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> [ Local examples ]


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## celerycola (Jan 5, 2013)

Here's a typical bottling plant circa 1910. It is the plant of McDaniel Brothers of Fort Worth, Texas. They bottled cola, celery, birch beer, and a patent drink called Jersey Cream. The photo shows the entire bottling operation from the front to the rear doors. There are no Hutchinson bottles anywhere in the photo.





 Below is a hand truck of empties brought in through the back door. Visible are the bottoms of the bottles upside down in the crates.





 When the empties were brought into the plant they were loaded in the bottle washer. After they were clean they were packed again upside down to drain.





 The crates of upside down clean bottles were moved to the filling area. A crate of clean empties was set on one side of the foot-powered filling machine and the filled bottles were placed right side up in a crate on the other side.





 The filled bottles were packed right side up so the flavor would be visible on the cap when the crates were delivered to customers.





 The reason for empty bottles to be packed upside down was so a bottler knew he was refunding deposit on his bottles and not those of a competitor. Bottles were the biggest expense and he couldn't afford to pay deposit on a competitors bottles he could not legally use. 

 Below are bottles from 1904 to about 1930 showing the bottler's identification on the bottom.


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## epackage (Jan 5, 2013)

Dennis I must say, that is one great post you just made there concerning the bottles and the way they were handled and why, you're a wealth of knowledge and a great asset to this hobby. I'm proud to own a bottle that was once in your collection...


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## fer_de_lance (Jan 5, 2013)

Cerery,
  Nice post. I checked my examples of straight sided Coca-Colas (all of which are  mid-body embossed) and as Bob pointed out the bottoms were just marked Coca-Cola. Does that mean Coca-Cola bottlers had to pull their empties out of the case to find which belonged to them or did they fill any bottle as long as it was marked Coca-Cola? I'm basing my question on my bottles, there my be other Coca-Cola bottlers that had their straight sided bottles with location embossed on bottom or base.Both perforated and an solid bottom boxes were available which brings up the question why buy one or the other?  As this thread was originally a question about SBP's desired box or crate I apologize if my comments are off topic.I couldn't resist posting photo of my perforated bottom Lemo-Cola box when I saw your bottle.If you have information on Lemo I would be interested ,but it would probably be best addressed in another thread.

                                             Best regards
                                                Tim


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## CreekWalker (Jan 6, 2013)

Hi, Bob, to date any national Coca-Cola product, I match the style of lettering , the slogan/motto and color/pattern or background layout with known Coke products in Petritti;(sic) guide. For a regional Coke product such as yours dating is much more problematic. The box manufactuer recieved an order  from a local Coke bottler to build this type of crate to their specs, using possibly instructions less than the Norm for national Coca Cola crates at the time. My quess is post 1910 era, pre-1920.       PS , Dennis , never would I have thought after 20 years and a hundred+ bottle digs, I would be unable to obtain another amber: RM Becker, My-Coca, Memphis, Ten, (tn or 10 oz?) marked straight side soda, after selling a damaged one to a Aussie collector in the 1990's!


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> I acknowledge it is plausible that "one" of the reasons for the perforated holes in the bottoms of the crates was to insure that paper label bottles could be shipped upside down and not rub against one another. I also acknowledge "another" reason for the holes was to allow the bottles to be placed upside down when empty and drain properly. Not to mention various other explanations for the holes, including general shipping purposes and embossed base bottler identification.


 
 Celery ~

 I am including this quote of mine to reiterate my earlier comments regarding upside down bottles, which I acknowledge again as being available for a number of years and practiced for a variety of purposes.

 I also acknowledge, appreciate, and thank you for the collage of wonderfully presented pictures, especially the vintage black & white one's, even though they don't necessarily illustrate exactly what I had in mind when I said ...

 "Where are ... the pictures indicating that it was a common practice by bottlers?"

 However, your pictures do support at least one aspect of the reason for placing bottles upside down. But it was actually the everyday use (shipping) of bottles, like in the last vintage photo showing the filled and ready to ship bottles in the upright position, that I was primarily referring to.    

 ( I dread this next part because I feel by saying it I will be labeled an argumentative rebel whose only goal is to push an issue until a specifically desired answer is achieved. But because that is not the case, I will risk that possibility because I honestly feel the following observations and questions to be valid one's ).

 Note: The following only pertains to the *RED*, lidded case from Boise, Idaho, and not any other types. I emphasize this because I feel it is easy to get side-tracked with discussions involving other types of boxes and cases.

 Observations:

 1. I believe it was originally a railroad or long distance shipping case.
 2. I believe it was repainted and might be older than 1915 when the Boise facility was established.
 3. I believe it might be old enough to have been used for Hutchinson bottles.
 4. I believe it was intended to support bottles upside down and not upright.
 5. I also believe it could have had a dual purpose for both Hutchinson as well as straight-sided bottles.
 6. It looks almost identical to cases made between 1906 and 1926 and possibly earlier than that.
 7. The McFerson & Foster Box Company was established in circa 1883-84. 

 Questions: (Which are not intended just for celerycola but for anyone )

 Exactly what is it about the *RED* case from Boise, Idaho that tells us ...

 1. When it was made?
 2. Whether it was intended for Hutchinson bottles, straight-sided bottles, or both?

 3. fe_de_lance's question about Coca Cola bottles in particular?

 Please be specific in your answers.

 Thanks a lot

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

Creek Walker ~

 Thanks again. Your intelligent observation is duley noted.

 As to my overall observations, the truth is ...

 I honestly don't know how old the red case from Boise is. Which is exactly why I started this thread in the first place, to determine beyound a shadow of a doubt within about five or ten years when it was made. For example, if I took it to Antiques Roadshow or showed it to a bona fide Coca Cola expert, I bet they would know. But since I don't own it, then that will never be possible. It's one thing to "believe / suspect" when something was made, but another thing when it comes to the facts.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

In other words ...

 Was the red case from Boise, Idaho made in ...

 1.  1890 to 1900
 2.  1900 to 1910
 3.  1910 to 1920
 4.  1920 to 1930

 Surely it is one of the above.

 For anyone who chooses to address this, please provide proof with your answer. 

 Respectfully,

 Bob


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

While I have no answers to any of the questions posed I do have to say this, the boxes without the dividing slats must have wreaked havoc on the bottles shipped in them. I can't see them being handled without the bottles smacking into one another non stop...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

Jim / epackage ~

 That same thing crossed my mind. And even though there is no current evidence to support it, I suppose its possible the bottles were packed with something like excelsior.

 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/excelsior

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

I was thinking that was possible too Bob, but man that would have been messy as hell for the people having to unpack them when they got to their destination...

 It seems to me if you're gonna spend money for wood shavings on every case you need to ship that you would be better off paying for the dividers as a one time expense...[:-]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

Jim ~

 I agree.  There are still a lot of unanswered mysteries surrounding those shipping cases.

 Bob

 [ Excelsior ]


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

Good luck in trying to figure it out Bob, I'm heading to bed my friend...[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

I zoomed in on this old photograph and it appears the cased bottles pictured on the floor are alternated - one up - one down, etc. As for the date, the slogans, "Delicious And Refreshing" and "Drink A Bottle Of Coca Cola" were introduced around 1904-05.

 http://www.poetpatriot.com/timeline/slogans/slogans-cocacola.htm

 But here I go again getting side-tracked when the real focus is supposed to be on the red case from Boise, Idaho, which I don't see anything like in this vintage photograph.

 Bob

 [ Circa 1904 ]


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## celerycola (Jan 6, 2013)

I've used this type case packed with bottles on an 800 mile trip to a bottle show and there was no rattle. The holes seem to hold the bottle neck securely with the weight of the bottle. 


> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> While I have no answers to any of the questions posed I do have to say this, the boxes without the dividing slats must have wreaked havoc on the bottles shipped in them. I can't see them being handled without the bottles smacking into one another non stop...


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## celerycola (Jan 6, 2013)

If there were bottles neck up they would be taller than the neck down bottles due to the false bottom. All the bottles in the stacked cases pictured appear to be bottom up. The case on the left shows capped bottles neck up so the flavor can be read on the cap. Spend a few weeks reading copies of the National Bottler's Gazette and you will learn a lot about how a bottling plant operated.

 And there are a lot of inaccuracies in that list of slogans with dates from the linked website. Cecil Munsey's list is better but still inconclusive.

 If you have studied the various ads posted you know that the same styles of cases were used for several decades. Unless a stamped date is found (as many of the cases have) no "expert" can tell you precisely when a case was manufactured. Petretti has been cited here as an "expert" but you should consider the opinions of knowledgeable collectors at the various Coke Meets who disagree with much of what he has published. Petretti was a businessman out to make money and much of his information has been discredited by people with more collecting experience.



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> I zoomed in on this old photograph and it appears the cased bottles pictured on the floor are alternated - one up - one down, etc. As for the date, the slogans, "Delicious And Refreshing" and "Drink A Bottle Of Coca Cola" were introduced around 1904-05.
> 
> ...


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> I've used this type case packed with bottles on an 800 mile trip to a bottle show and there was no rattle. The holes seem to hold the bottle neck securely with the weight of the bottle.
> 
> ...


 I meant more when they were being handled and moved around by hand Dennis, especially if they had hutches in them, I can see straight sides staying put better but not hutches...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

Jim / epackage ~

 It might be a little late to disclose this now, but two years ago when I tested the Boise box with bottles, I discovered it was the Hutchinson bottles that actually had the best (tightest) fit. This might have been because the Hutch's have a shorter and flatter shoulder. Perhaps celerycola can conduct a test of his own and tell us his opinion.

 Later 

 Bob


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

Hmmmm, that's interesting, just by the look of the two side by side I would expect the crown top to stay put alot better than the hutch...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 6, 2013)

Celery ~

 I totally agree with you this time in that the Boise type of shipping boxes were made for decades and appear to be identical in many respects. Its possible that not even a so called expert would be able to precisely date it. Maybe the answer will eventually be found in an original McFerson & Foster catalog, if such a critter even exist. I looked the box over pretty good two years ago and certain it wasn't stamped with a date. 

 As for the vintage photograph I posted, I zoomed it again and the bottles still appear to be alternated up and down. Its the specks of light reflecting off the glass that leads me to think this. I was also thinking it might not have the perforated holes in the bottom, but instead is a standard flat bottom box which would allow the bottles to all be the same height. Hard to say for certain.

 All things considered, I'm calling it quits on trying to date the Boise box. Maybe someday someone will stumble onto this thread and be able to shed some more light on it. But as for myself, I've done all of the research I can think of and have hit a dead end. So it only seems appropriate to allow this thread to fade into oblivion once again just like the Boise box that I'm sure I will never see again anyway.

 But before closing, I'd like to share this one last link and picture of a vintage Coca Cola box  which is described as a ...

 Circa 1917 Train / Steamer Ship 48 Bottle Shipping Crate From Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. (No holes in the bottom)

 http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/38878-early-1900s-coca-cola-bottle-shipping

 Later alligators. Its been a fun run.

 Thanks again to all.

 Bob


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## epackage (Jan 6, 2013)

Looks similar to a Number 9 in the Owens catalog, maybe someday someone who can shed some new light on this subject will come along...


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## celerycola (Jan 6, 2013)

I love that Lemo-Cola crate. William M. Draper introduced Lemo-Cola to Sullivan, Indiana, in April, 1915. It was popular enough that franchises were issued to bottlers at Clinton and Terre Haute, Indiana. They were sued by Coca-Cola in 1925 and discontinued the name Lemo-Cola. 

 The only straight-side Coke bottle I've seen with the town name on the bottom was Elkins, WV. Digging in Birmingham we found Coke bottles both from nearby towns and often as far away as Chicago along with the local bottles. I would guess they were filled alongside the local bottles. 



> ORIGINAL:  fer_de_lance
> 
> Celery,
> Nice post. I checked my examples of straight sided Coca-Colas (all of which are  mid-body embossed) and as Bob pointed out the bottoms were just marked Coca-Cola. Does that mean Coca-Cola bottlers had to pull their empties out of the case to find which belonged to them or did they fill any bottle as long as it was marked Coca-Cola? I'm basing my question on my bottles, there my be other Coca-Cola bottlers that had their straight sided bottles with location embossed on bottom or base.Both perforated and an solid bottom boxes were available which brings up the question why buy one or the other?  As this thread was originally a question about SBP's desired box or crate I apologize if my comments are off topic.I couldn't resist posting photo of my perforated bottom Lemo-Cola box when I saw your bottle.If you have information on Lemo I would be interested ,but it would probably be best addressed in another thread.
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> But before closing, I'd like to share this one last link and picture of a vintage Coca Cola box  which is described as a ...
> 
> ...


 
 For future reference ...

 Although these two Coca Cola shipping crates appear to be the same one, they are two different examples. What I found interesting is that both are dated circa 1917. Even though they are unrelated to one another, you gotta wonder how they both came up with the same date? Maybe it has something to do with the Harrisburg bottler, or perhaps its something else. I really don't know, but I find it interesting.

 Bob

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/41606952@N07/4484038217/in/pool-71347304@N00%7C41606952@N07


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## OsiaBoyce (Jan 7, 2013)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyFyAqLtHq8


 The key word to answering the same date question is 'circa'.


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