# Stoddard, or not stoddard?



## bottles_inc (Aug 13, 2021)

Seller described this as stoddard, have no clue/don't collect stoddard glass so I can't tell if it is or isn't. Don't particularly care either way, it's a neat bottle. Cool offset lip, nice color, 3 piece mold, pontilled, pretty neat. I didn't know pontilled bottles could have that little center glass nub until now.


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## ROBBYBOBBY64 (Aug 13, 2021)

bottles_inc said:


> Seller described this as stoddard, have no clue/don't collect stoddard glass so I can't tell if it is or isn't. Don't particularly care either way, it's a neat bottle. Cool offset lip, nice color, 3 piece mold, pontilled, pretty neat. I didn't know pontilled bottles could have that little center glass nub until now.
> View attachment 228618
> 
> View attachment 228619
> ...


Stoddard is a town in New Hampshire which has a long glass making history. Stoddard glass is actually a reference to the locale where it was made, not to a specific glass works. There were 3 Granite Glass Works, New Granite Glass Works and South Stoddard Glass Works.
ROBBYBOBBY64. 
"Stoddard Glass – Updated Information from Michael George | Peachridge Glass" https://www.peachridgeglass.com/2012/01/staddard-glass-updated-information-from-michael-george/


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## nhpharm (Aug 13, 2021)

It could be...they call these a "Stoddard Stubby" and as far as I know some were certainly made there.  They are nice early bottles!


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## bottles_inc (Aug 13, 2021)

ROBBYBOBBY64 said:


> Stoddard is a town in New Hampshire which has a long glass making history. Stoddard glass is actually a reference to the locale where it was made, not to a specific glass works. There were 3 Granite Glass Works, New Granite Glass Works and South Stoddard Glass Works.
> ROBBYBOBBY64.
> "Stoddard Glass – Updated Information from Michael George | Peachridge Glass" https://www.peachridgeglass.com/2012/01/staddard-glass-updated-information-from-michael-george/


It apparently came from a new Hampshire collection so that's a plus


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## saratogadriver (Aug 19, 2021)

Color is certainly consistent with Stoddard.   Definitely an old New England glass house.

Jim G


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## jwpevahouse (Jun 3, 2022)

I recently bought an example of this bottle. Last summer at a local flea market I bought a very similar black glass whiskey marked "Dyottville Glass Works, Phila." around the bottom. Other than their size they are identical. Both have "Patent" embossed on the shoulder. I would vote for Dyottville as the maker of this bottle. Dating the bottle is more difficult, I would suggest before 1850.


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## Roy (Jun 3, 2022)

Hard to say for sure but it's certainly old and NICE!!!
Roy


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 3, 2022)

*I don't see the similarity between the "stubby" pictured and the typical Dyotteville fifth.  









*


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## jwpevahouse (Jun 4, 2022)

Harry, Not a valid comparison, the Dyottville whiskey you picture is a much later version than my example,probably post 1860s.  My example is crude, darker black glass, iron pontil and well before 1860. I compared the two carefully and the only minor difference between my porter and his bottle is the shoulder, which is slightly more sloping on his bottle, Otherwise his bottle, mine and the whiskey are almost exact. 
My understanding is there was no single Stoddard Glass Works, there were five operating in the Stoddard, NH area between the early 1840s and 1870s. That makes identifying a not embossed bottle tough to impossible. Good luck to anyone who can attribute a plain amber or black glass bottle to one of those Stoddard glass works considering the proliferation of glass works which produced that type. The similar bottle I have was dug in Philadelphia which might suggest its origin.


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## DavidW (Jun 4, 2022)

Honestly since there were lots of bottle making companies in the 1850s-1860s in the Eastern states (in NH, MA, CT, PA, NJ, ME and others), and many of them were probably making some type of shorter smaller ale bottle (stubby?) AND the typical larger "cylinder whiskey" (many of them with the word "PATENT" on the shoulder)   I think there is no way to know for SURE where any of those bottles were made* unless* they bear a makers mark, or have a certified provenance going back for many years within a family, OR they were actually dug from a factory site. 

The "stubby" bottle posted by "bottles_inc" looks just like a bottle I bought at a yard sale in Kentucky 10-15 years ago.   Same dark olive-amber color, very crude applied lip, and "sand" pontiled.   I have no idea where it was made. Possibly it could be from Stoddard, but also could have been made by any of lots of other bottle companies.   

Also, (this is not about the Stoddard Stubby) but concerning the taller "Cylinder whiskey bottle" types, some were made in the mid-1850s (if not earlier), just an example,  in this article by Bill Lockhart he illustrates a very rare mark seen on a cylinder whiskey (MAUL HEBREW & Co) and that bottle can be dated tightly to 1855-1856 .   
https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/MOther.pdf
And yes they were made for many years afterward, at least into the 1880s.


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## jwpevahouse (Jun 4, 2022)

DavidW said:


> Honestly since there were lots of bottle making companies in the 1850s-1860s in the Eastern states (in NH, MA, CT, PA, NJ, ME and others), and many of them were probably making some type of shorter smaller ale bottle (stubby?) AND the typical larger "cylinder whiskey" (many of them with the word "PATENT" on the shoulder)   I think there is no way to know for SURE where any of those bottles were made* unless* they bear a makers mark, or have a certified provenance going back for many years within a family, OR they were actually dug from a factory site.
> 
> The "stubby" bottle posted by "bottles_inc" looks just like a bottle I bought at a yard sale in Kentucky 10-15 years ago.   Same dark olive-amber color, very crude applied lip, and "sand" pontiled.   I have no idea where it was made. Possibly it could be from Stoddard, but also could have been made by any of lots of other bottle companies.
> 
> ...


Good comments, thanks.  Often collectors are tempted to describe black glass bottles as Stoddard since it can add a zero or two to the value. My recent purchase of a black glass porter/ale style bottle was simply to enhance the variety in my collection.  I suspect sometimes bottlers chose  black glass for ale or porter style bottles to give their product the feel of good ole English ale, a marketing strategy.


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## jwpevahouse (Jun 4, 2022)

DavidW said:


> Honestly since there were lots of bottle making companies in the 1850s-1860s in the Eastern states (in NH, MA, CT, PA, NJ, ME and others), and many of them were probably making some type of shorter smaller ale bottle (stubby?) AND the typical larger "cylinder whiskey" (many of them with the word "PATENT" on the shoulder)   I think there is no way to know for SURE where any of those bottles were made* unless* they bear a makers mark, or have a certified provenance going back for many years within a family, OR they were actually dug from a factory site.
> 
> The "stubby" bottle posted by "bottles_inc" looks just like a bottle I bought at a yard sale in Kentucky 10-15 years ago.   Same dark olive-amber color, very crude applied lip, and "sand" pontiled.   I have no idea where it was made. Possibly it could be from Stoddard, but also could have been made by any of lots of other bottle companies.
> 
> ...


Good comments, thanks.


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 5, 2022)

*Interesting talk from experienced collectors.  I reviewed Mckearin's BOTTLES, FLASKS, and DR. DYOTT, but didn't find much to illuminate the thread.  What WOULD illuminate the thread are IMAGES of the bottles you are describing.  How about it? *


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## jerrypev (Jun 5, 2022)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Interesting talk from experienced collectors.  I reviewed Mckearin's BOTTLES, FLASKS, and DR. DYOTT, but didn't find much to illuminate the thread.  What WOULD illuminate the thread are IMAGES of the bottles you are describing.  How about it? *


I'll attach two photos of the Dyottville whiskey (base and lip)  and one of the porter squat. It would be pointless to post the full image I have of the whiskey since relevant details would not be discernible. It is dark olive with a uneven whittled surface. The image of the porter bottle is before cleaning but gives a fairly good representation of it's color and crudity. The early double collar lip they share were shorter and wider at the base, very distinct for late 1840s -early 1850s. The base of both bottles has a deep kickup and similar pontil. Both these bottles come from the Philadelphia area, not that could be used to determine the maker but is interesting.
This threat exposes the slippery slope of trying to identify makers of plain not embossed bottles generally. It's particularly troublesome since I notice collectors are quick to ID black glass bottles or dark amber as Stoddard. Actually most of the examples I see on the internet are a medium amber. Black glass by it's strictest definition is not amber, but a dark olive green with a tint of amber. Both my bottles are identical in color and huge and meet this definition.
I've tried to determine when the double collar lip began to be used but found it was simply an evolution from colonial era bottles with two rings of glass laid around the lip to a more mechanically formed lip using a tool by the 1850s.
In the end it would be interesting to know the maker of the black glass porter but I doubt it's possible. Dyott could have made the bottle, but also a few dozen other mid Victorian glass works.


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 5, 2022)

*Well, Jerry, I can't disagree with what you present.  I've always understood that Stoddard glass tended to be peppered with micro- to seed bubbles.  I don't have a porter that I can claim as Stoddard glass.  I do have a couple of demijohns that I've decided are from Stoddard, even though they are unmarked.







 *


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## jwpevahouse (Jun 5, 2022)

Harry Pristis said:


> *Well, Jerry, I can't disagree with what you present.  I've always understood that Stoddard glass tended to be peppered with micro- to seed bubbles.  I don't have a porter that I can claim as Stoddard glass.  I do have a couple of demijohns that I've decided are from Stoddard, even though they are unmarked.
> 
> View attachment 237409View attachment 237410View attachment 237411*


Nice collection of early bottles, possibly a few 18th century included.


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## Harry Pristis (Jun 5, 2022)

*I am fond of 18th C. bottles.



*


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