# Cross & Co. Vancouver B.C. 1894-1963



## Canadacan

Just wanted to share the bottles I have up to date before my new ones arrive[]. I don't have the very earliest bottles but I will post pictures of them in this thread at some point. The date range on the first three bottles is approximate except for the most recent of the embossed which is dated 1945 and the earliest is a BIM. The 6.5 oz bottle I assume were flavor and syrup bottles...note the green one has the Registered Priof top!I will also layout a location time line.. and hope to solve a bit of a mysterious thing regarding the earliest information about Cross & Company. [attachment=20141120_091016_resized.jpg]


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## Canadacan

Here is a photo of the earliest Black Bear Brand bottles,showing front and back of the bottle known as the standing bear.              [attachment=A36_MS031_PairBlac...ancouver_1 (1).jpg]  [attachment=A36_MS031_PairBlac...ancouver_2 (1).jpg]


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## Canadacan

The location time line is shaky to me because I could not locate information for 1894,95. I believe the company was listed as Vancouver Soda Water Works in 1896...the owner? seems to be  Cross D. Gavin.It's not until 1899-1900 that the name Cross & Co. appear in the listings.You may have noted that that little torpedo shaped bottle has MIEKLE BROS. & C0MPANY LTD.  on it?...well best I can tell they has a business relation of some kind no doubt about that as they also amalgamated in 1908.So Cross operated as Vancouver Soda Water Works from 1894-1899,1900.....where dose this 1894 come from?The 1959 soda bottle with the blue ACL!....all this information may be written in some book...Pioneer soda companies of BC or something like that?..but I don't have it and have no idea what information it contains. Vancouver Soda Water Works 1894?-1899     Gore Ave. Vancouver BCCross & Co. Ltd.                    1900 - 1906     503 HornbyCross & Co. Ltd.                    1907 - 1912     1067 RichardsCross & Co. Ltd.                    1913 - 1922     38 Lansdown Ave East.Cross & Co. Ltd.                    1923 - 1963     38 East 4th Ave Pictured below is the still standing! location from 1923 - 1963 on 38 East 4th Ave. [attachment=Cross & Co. -1923-...t  4th Ave. -2.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

I never knew there was a relation between Cross & Co. and Vancouver Soda Water Works, that's interesting.  If they're the same Black Bear Brand, that is, and I'm not sure of that.  Vancouver Soda Water Works is a really confusing company that goes back earlier than 1894, back to when they were owned by Murchinson and Derraugh (might have spelled those wrong, the bottles only say M&D) in the early 1880's.  I never made the association between the two Black Bear Brands (mostly because I don't own any Meikle Brothers bottles, they're crazy expensive).


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## Canadacan

Yes it is very interesting stuff hey. Well Murchison & Derraugh Vancouver  is shown 1888-1890 and then all in one this is shown -Vancouver Soda Water Works (M & D) Calley & Co. Ltd. Vancouver BC 1886-1908Now have a look at this!?...I know it's a little bit tiny lol.....it's from 1899. [attachment=0572_Vancouver_-_N.._Page_035 Cross.jpeg] But Cross was mingled in there , must have been more that business dealing maybe a partnership or he was a majority share holder, and if you look at my ACL it does show since 1894.That pair of Black Bear Brand's sold for $900


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## Robby Raccoon

Bear. []


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## Canadacan

Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> Bear. []


Oh yea your name sake!!![]


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## Canadacan

Here is early photo from the City of Vancouver archives showing Vancouver Soda Water Works, Meikle Bros. circa 1900.I will assume this is the location 719 Gore Ave. 1886 - 1908...I have not researched if they had any other addresses.I figured it would be appropriate to show this considering the ties they had Gavin Cross-Cross & Co. and besides the subject matter is superb! As far as the date given (1900)... IMHO    I think it's a little earlier than that. [attachment=Vancouver soda wat...os. Circa 1900.jpg]


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## sunrunner

nice history ,great research.


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## Canadacan

sunrunner said:
			
		

> nice history ,great research.


Thank you sunrunner1...I'll be adding some more photos and interesting facts that I also recently discovered.


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## Canadacan

Here is the best I could do for a then and now comparison of the 38 East 4th Ave. location 1936 vs 2014. [attachment=Cross & Co. 2014 then&now1.jpg]


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## Canadacan

And here is the full version of the photo. I discovered that in 1928 Cross & Co. picked up the Whistle brand of soda, it was listed as Vancouver Whistle Co. and of course shared the same address. The photo is dated Aug. 24th 1936 and is from the City of Vancouver archives. Wondering about the motorized go cart? this info came from Theoldmotor.com The Whistle brand promoted on the hood of the midget car was an orange soda pop that originated in St. Louis, Missouri in 1919. And while the identity of the mid-thirties International “C” Series truck in the middle is easy to figure out, the year, make and model of its much older companion is also an unknown to us. We invite you to tell us what you might know about it, the little race car and Cross & Company. You can also find more than 100 pages of _unusual trucks and buses _here on _The Old Motor. _Photo courtesy of the_ City of Vancouver._* Updated * By Robert Cunningham: _“The midget auto is a National Junior Racer, manufactured by Ezra Plummer in Des Moines, IA,  from 1932 until the late 1930s, when rights were transferred to M.A. MacKenzie’s Wichita Carriage Works in Wichita, Kansas. The cars were 82 inches long, weighed 340 pounds, traveled 60 miles per gallon, and were powered by a single-cylinder Briggs & Stratton “Y” air-cooled engine”._ _[attachment=Cross & Co. Vanouver BC Aug 24 1936.jpg] _


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## Canadacan

These are the only 2 Whistle bottles I have. The straight side short is 6.5 oz...I know very little about it and can't get a maker mark or year from it but would date from the late 20's to early 30's.  On the tall cross hatched 6.5 oz it is bottom marked Vancouver BC, the bottle was US made and has the IPG triangle mark with a date code of 1928. [attachment=Whistle.jpg][attachment=Whistle1.jpg]


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## Canadacan

And one more amazing photo ....I just love these old time photos..check out the Cross logo on the back of the truck!This photo is circa 1938 taken in front of Moose temple on 636 Burrard st...photo from City of Vancouver. [attachment=Cross & Co. Vanouv..., 636 Burrard].jpg]


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## Plumbata

Really nice work here, and engagingly presented. For what it's worth, I've dug those SS whistle bottles (same style, that is) in 1920s contexts, and from what i recall they had date codes from 1922 and 1923.


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## Canadacan

Plumbata said:
			
		

> Really nice work here, and engagingly presented. For what it's worth, I've dug those SS whistle bottles (same style, that is) in 1920s contexts, and from what i recall they had date codes from 1922 and 1923.


Thanks very for the comment [] Hmmm so that SS bottle could be a little older than I think hey...and now that you mention the 1920's and date codes, I believe most earlier bottles have no date codes...but that's not always the rule either. I have bottles with the IPG Triangle logo and no date on code on the lip...those I tend to date at 1926-28.There is numeral 1 embossed on this bottle and assume it's a mold # ?


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## CanadianBottles

That little car is fantastic!  And it was even issued a license plate as well!  Interesting to see that Cross & Co. seemed to only advertise their ginger ale.  The only other flavour of theirs I know of for sure is club soda, but it seems like there should have been more, especially with that logo that's clearly a ripoff of Coca-Cola on the back of the blue and white ACL.  Maybe ginger ale was just their most successful.I've been looking through that Museum of Vancouver website and they have a lot of bottles, although most are unfortunately not photographed.  Which is really a shame, since there are some things, like an NDNR Cross's bottle, an acid-etched Thorpe's (not a syphon), and a Coquitlam patent med called OK Mosquito Oil (if that counts as a med) that I would really like to see pictures of.  Also, turns out Lucky Strike used bottles as well, which explains my crates, since they are way too tall to make sense for cans.


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## Canadacan

Yes no doubt ginger ale was there mainstay!... I always loved that lettering on the back of those ACL's! in the Coca-Cola script [] Now I don't know when they first bottled it but did you know they bottled Kist Beverages?Kist is dated 1954. [attachment=20141120_091719_resized.jpg] [attachment=20141120_091743_resized_1.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

Hey, I didn't know about that one!  I didn't know Kist was bottled by independent bottlers at all, all the ones I've seen have only mentioned Stratford.  That's definitely one to look out for.


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## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:
			
		

> Hey, I didn't know about that one!  I didn't know Kist was bottled by independent bottlers at all, all the ones I've seen have only mentioned Stratford.  That's definitely one to look out for.


Makes me wonder what else they bottled?...have you seen these?...hope this link works! So I pretty much include the Kist with the Cross family of bottles being it's the only one I have [] http://www.ecbw.ca/tim_ma...kist_canada_ltd_02.jpg


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## CanadianBottles

Oh wow, those are really interesting.  I guess they must have still contained Kist, but I've never heard of a company allowing their packaging to be altered to the point of taking their name off of it.


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## RCO

that kist is unusual , you never see them in Ontario with local bottlers names on them , although there was a lot of companies bottling kist I would think but none have there name on bottle


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## Canadacan

RCO said:
			
		

> that kist is unusual , you never see them in Ontario with local bottlers names on them , although there was a lot of companies bottling kist I would think but none have there name on bottle


Really?...I would think Ontario would be littered with bottlers names on them. Maybe there was to many bottlers in the region and Kist Canada would not allow bottlers to mark them. An exception was made possibly because Cross & Co. was the exclusive distributor in BC?....that could be why. I will have to check the back next time I see one.


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## mctaggart67

I had the opportunity to interview Les Morris of Les Morris Beverages Ltd., Sarnia, Ontario, a licensed bottler of Kist and Vernors, among other brands. Les Morris had a quart ACL Vernors Ginger Ale marked "Les Morris Beverages Ltd., Sarnia, Ontario," an example of which I found in the kitchen of an abandoned farmhouse. I asked him about this marking and he replied that Vernors was not pleased with this localized marking and asked him to pull the bottles. He noted that it was an honest mistake made early in his bottling career, in that the Dominion Glass rep simply asked what he'd like marked on his bottles. Hoping to begin the chase for another local variant, I asked him if there were any Kist bottles marked with "Les Morris Beverages Ltd., Sarnia, Ontario." He told me that he knew there were none ever made because the Kist Canada franchising headquarters in Stratford, Ontario, was quite explicit and exacting that he only use bottles marked "Kist Canada, Stratford, Ontario." Now, I can't offer anything about the case in B.C., but, on account of Kist Canada's enforced policy, it would seem that Kist bottles from Ontario are likely not marked in localized fashion. By the way, the "Les Morris" version of the Vernors is extremely rare. I've only seen two of them in my nearly 35 years of collecting, not surprising since Les Morris was ordered to pull such bottles.


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## Canadacan

That's great information, Thank you for posting. It did also get me wondering about other Western Canadian provinces Kist bottles....the bottles pictured is the generic back...that's what they should be, this one is from Regina, not currently in my collection.Could have been the same thing with Cross & Co. then Dominion asked what they wanted. My example came from the Redcliff Alberta plant.Now you really have me wondering do I have a tough or even rare example?.. only time will tell now. Or did Kist Canada strike a deal with Cross & Co. to get the brand into Vancouver?Very intriguing indeed![8D]  Ivan [attachment=Kist Beverage.JPG]


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## CanadianBottles

Hey Mctaggart, do you have any idea what the deal is with those other Kist-type bottles on the ECBW website?  Those ones are really intriguing, especially if it was a company that usually prevented bottlers' names on the back.I know I've never heard of another of those Cross bottles, and I got my generic Kist bottle in BC, though I can't guarantee that's where it originated.


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## mctaggart67

No idea about the Maedel and Trudel bottles, though they are fascinating specimens. Could be really obvious (and legally precarious) rip-offs, or more likely unauthorized localizations. I know from various sources (archival, newspaper, interviews, etc.) that national brand name franchisors, ranging from the biggies, such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi and Orange Crush, right down to smaller nationals and regionals, such as Vernors, Kist, Country Club, The Pop Shoppe, etc., assumed a business model of unified brand recognition that involved eliminating the advertisement of local bottlers' names on bottles, signs, giveaways, etc. Crates seem to be the exception here. This makes sense given that these franchisors aimed to increase market share and sales through generic (and more cost effective across geography) advertising campaigns. Les Morris also explained to me that another reason for pressure against localization was that the franchisors did not want the buying public to associate local bottlers' names with their brand names in case they wanted a different franchisor to take over production and/or distribution. Cutting out the locals' names made such a transition easier and cleaner. The general rule was product over local maker.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm not certain what the main topic of discussion is on this thread, but thought this ad might shed some light on things. Its from ... The Vancouver Daily World ~ Vancouver, B.C. ~ November 22, *1890*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I also found a newspaper article stating that G.D. Cross and J.D. Cross "severed" their relationship with Cross & Company in January of 1905 but that the company continued in operation under the original name.


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## Canadacan

Yea that era is a little bit confusing to say the least, but that would be correct that A.C. Murchison was the proprietor of Vancouver Soda Water Works....of course that 1890 add is 4 years prior to Cross coming onto the scene...but I can't find mention of Cross until 1897....and on that ACL they Claim 'Since 1894'And then this : Meikle Bros.Vancouver Soda Water Works 704 Westminster Ave. ,719 Gore Ave. 1886 - 1908 .....you have to wonder about that photograph I posted showing Meikle Bros.Vancouver Soda Water Works....is one of those men out front Cross? Interesting about the newspaper article as well, I did find that the name A.D. Hossack is listed with Cross & Co. as early as 1900-1902, In 1903 for example he is listed as a Manufactures Agent on 900 Pendar St, this is the other address that I could not verify until now!, but Also listed under Cross & Co. (A.D. Hossack) soda water mfgs., 900 Pendar St. A.D. Hossack is listed as an Agent 1894-1907.Cross's name disappears in 1905.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Where do these stoneware/ceramic bottles fit into the scheme of things date-wise? And who was "Agent Bourne Denby?" And what does BC 18 stand for? The first bottle is on eBay ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cross-Co-Ltd-Canadian-Ginger-beer-from-Vancouver-BC-/231404398227?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item35e0c6e693 I found the two other bottles and cork on Google


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## SODAPOPBOB

I discovered that ...

Bourne  =  Last Name

Denby   =  Pottery Company, England

http://www.denby.co.uk/denby-heritage/denby-history/page/denby_history

http://www.denby.co.uk/denby-heritage/200-years-of-denby/page/200_years

http://www.perfectpieces.co.uk/backstinfo.php?pmanuid=2

I wonder if any of this is related to the 1894 date?


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## Canadacan

Yes I knew it was a maker from the UK.....I'm not totally up to speed on the Ginger beer bottles but would think Cross & Co. used them up to at least the 1920's? I wouldn't mind adding a ginger beer to my collection some are within reach others though like the Meikle Bros.Vancouver Soda Water Works Black Bear bear are out of my league! This is from Maple Leaf auctions...sold for $4000. [attachment=A38_GB059_MeikleBear_Vancouver_2.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Where do these stoneware/ceramic bottles fit into the scheme of things date-wise? And who was "Agent Bourne Denby?" And what does BC 18 stand for?



BC 18 just means it's his eighteenth bottle from BC that he's selling.  Speaking of which, just noticed he's got a Stanley Park Brewery bottle for sale there, that's not one you see up for sale often.  It's also one of the holy grails of BC collecting.  And Canadacan he's got a Felix Distributors ginger beer for ten bucks, which is about as cheap as stoneware bottles go in Canada.  (Which is why that's the only BC stoneware I have).


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## Canadacan

Was that Stanley Park Brewery not from a past auction?...I think these ended on the 15th Nov. or at least the Black Bear did. I noticed a Stanley Park Brewery on ebay @ around 250....it has issues no doubt!I also noticed a Cross's for 56 start bid....not the best perfect example but it's at or around my cut off price range...I think[]....Me stepping up to the plate on a bottle is usually around 30-40.


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## CanadianBottles

No, it ends tomorrow.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley-Park-Brewery-Vancover-BC-Canadian-Ginger-Beer-/231399919972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item35e0829164  Though maybe it was relisted.  Probably didn't sell due to the damage, which is kind of surprising to me.  Maybe they aren't as in demand as I thought they were.  I guess that makes the Meikle Black Bear the true holy grail of BC collecting.


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## Canadacan

I think I heard that the standing bear is one the most sought after in Canada.....that'd be like a dream bottle hey.I suppose the condition has something to do with no sale? (Stanley Park)...but even so it's a wanted bottle!


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## Robby Raccoon

I'd love the bear. Lol.


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## Canadacan

Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> I'd love the bear. Lol.


I posted that just for you![]Just noticed now that the bear on the glass bottle faces left and on the stoneware it faces right.


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## Robby Raccoon

Canadacan said:
			
		

> Spirit Bear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love the bear. Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> I posted that just for you![]Just noticed now that the bear on the glass bottle faces left and on the stoneware it faces right.
Click to expand...

Thanks!! Made me smile. Good observation.


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## CanadianBottles

Yeah it's funny no one's bidding, since in good condition it was supposed to go up to around two thousand back in the early 80's.  I wonder what the most is a bottle has ever sold for in Canada.  Not sure I've ever seen one of those auctions go above five thousand, though I'm sure they have at times.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Canadacan said:
			
		

> The location time line is shaky to me because I could not locate information for 1894,95. I believe the company was listed as Vancouver Soda Water Works in 1896...the owner? seems to be  Cross D. Gavin.It's not until 1899-1900 that the name Cross & Co. appear in the listings.You may have noted that that little torpedo shaped bottle has MIEKLE BROS. & C0MPANY LTD.  on it?...well best I can tell they has a business relation of some kind no doubt about that as they also amalgamated in 1908.So Cross operated as Vancouver Soda Water Works from 1894-1899,1900.....where dose this 1894 come from?The 1959 soda bottle with the blue ACL!....all this information may be written in some book...Pioneer soda companies of BC or something like that?..but I don't have it and have no idea what information it contains. Vancouver Soda Water Works 1894?-1899     Gore Ave. Vancouver BCCross & Co. Ltd.                    1900 - 1906     503 HornbyCross & Co. Ltd.                    1907 - 1912     1067 RichardsCross & Co. Ltd.                    1913 - 1922     38 Lansdown Ave East.Cross & Co. Ltd.                    1923 - 1963     38 East 4th Ave



 I'm still trying to make sense of things, especially the names, dates and addresses, and thought the following newspaper articles might help ...  1.  Vancouver Daily World  ~  December 28, *1888  ~  *(Vancouver Soda Water Works)2.  Vancouver Daily World  ~  June 20, *1896  *(1 of 2)  ~ Says ...  "Established ten years ago"  3.  (2 of 2)


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is the earliest ad I have been able to find (so far) for Cross & Co. Vancouver Daily World  ~  December 7, *1901*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I have been unable to zero in on the 1894 date and exactly what took place at that time!


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## Canadacan

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S. I have been unable to zero in on the 1894 date and exactly what took place at that time!


Yes same here!...Thanks for your Hard work in trying to bring light to this[] Well we know the Cross's were tied into this soda business in one way or another.And I've never seen that MACK mineral water!...wow! Remember this from the beginning of the post.It's from 1899 [attachment=Cross D.G..jpeg]  And then there is also this from 1896 [attachment=Cross G D --1896.jpeg]


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## SODAPOPBOB

*                             Mack Mineral Water ~ St. Catharines ~ Ontario, Canada* Most of what I'm finding for Mack Mineral Water places it in St. Catharines, Ontario, which is a long way from British Columbia. I'm thinking Cross & Co. was a distributor of the brand and not necessarily a bottler. ??? 1.  Vancouver Daily World ~ August 20, 1903     (There are dozens, and possibly hundreds of similar ads like this between 1901 and 1905) 2.  1900 / 1901 Booklet Cover 3.  1900 / 1901 Booklet Article   2.


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## Canadacan

Yes Bob that could be that Mack was not bottled by Cross's & Co. These are New additions that just came in today and are now part of my Cross line up[] Some pretty cool ACL's! [attachment=ACL's from Goodwood1.jpg]


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## Robby Raccoon

I like them.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found this 1894 British Columbia directory but haven't had time to search it. Click on "Full Screen" and a "Search Inside" box will appear at the top ... https://archive.org/details/cihm_17837


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the link to a 1895 British Columbia directory. Maybe something related to Cross & Co. can be found in one of these directories ... https://archive.org/details/cihm_34514


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## Canadacan

Thanks Bob...I have looked through those via a different website viewer, but the one's you posted from the University of Alberta have a much nicer viewer! I'm going to have a look again...but from what I can tell not even a name pops up...(no pun intended[]).His name may be tied in on a Gazette for legal and business dealings or notice of sorts. And again on my newest ACL with the red cross it has the 'Since 1894'...that bottle is dated 1958, so at that time that's the information they had. Also the bottle itself is design reg. 1956 so that would be the earliest you'd see that ACL.Is it entirely possible they were misinformed?...I mean they are only off by two years.


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## Canadacan

And I thought I'd show a family photo of the three Cross & Co. ACL's together. The green glass with the red cross was their dedicated Ginger Ale bottle. To date the only other ACL I know of was on the Black bear Brand GA bottle. [attachment=Cross & Co. family.jpg]


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## Canadacan

So here is something I never knew or have never seen before..that I can remember. One is obviously the Cross bottle the other is the Polar Aerated Water Works that I had posted on my Calgary thread. It's basically a semi generic ACL?! Is that weird or what[:-]...so I assume Dominion glass had a catalog with some basic outline designs to choose from?But it doesn't make sense to me because it's like a copyright infringement. Any body ever see something like this? [attachment=Cross & Co. with Polar1.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

I really like those two new Cross bottles!  Never knew either of those existed, though figured a green Since 1894 bottle was likely as a lot of bottlers at that time had a seldom-used green version.The Double Header one is really weird though.  Generic ACL's must have been a thing, we've already established that with finding an almost exact copy of my Canora Beverages bottle from another bottler.  But I don't know why they would both say Double, that's just weird.  Especially since they operated in different provinces so wouldn't need to compete with each other; most Calgarians had probably never even heard of Cross & Co.  As for whether it's copyright infringement that would only count if they'd trademarked the name, which they might not have, plus they would be very unlikely to bother seeking legal action if the company wasn't infringing on their local market share.  Something else I just noticed is that the Calgary label has a much cruder design than the Vancouver one.  Maybe Polar got the old label designs after Cross was done with them?  Not sure why they would have kept the word Double though if they had to change the label anyway.


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## Canadacan

Yea your probably right about the copyright thing...two totally different markets so far apart. The Calgary one has a very tiny font style on the bottom, almost like it was penciled in. Both bottles predate the letter date code system...they are identical embossed 8 <D> 8I think these were like a 7up style citrus drink....the Calgary one being obvious. Could it have been some national company short lived maybe?... that provided syrup for this drink and allowed the local bottler to personalize the bottle?Here is a picture of the base. It is weird and mysterious!...I love a good mystery....or better yet in the words of William...'Is that weird or what'[] [attachment=double drink-base.jpg]


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## Canadacan

I made an incredible discovery today!...now it dose not solve the Double Header drink mystery this only adds to it!I almost picked this bottle up from the Goodwood connection but passed as the price was to high.A close examination reveals some very intriguing detail [:-] [attachment=Hub beverages, Sask..JPG]


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## SODAPOPBOB

*1899*[attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=0;666904&where=message&f=Cross D.G..jpeg[/attachImg] *1896*[attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=1;666904&where=message&f=Cross G D --1896.jpeg[/attachImg] This newspaper snippet raises more questions than it provides answers, but it at least puts us closer to the 1894 date. From ... The Vancouver Daily World  ~  Vancouver, B.C., Canada  ~  *September 6, 1895* I'm currently researching the name Gavin Dalziel Cross, but all I have found so far is that he died in 1932


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I have decided to bite the bullet and pay the $27.00 to upgrade my subscription on Ancestry.com so as to include international (Canadian) listings, which hopefully will give us with some answers related to G.D. Cross and J.D. Cross. I don't have time this morning to do a full search, but should have something by this time tomorrow.


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## Canadacan

That brings Cross one year closer!......It is somewhat of challenge to follow hey!....thanks for the hard work[]I've just had a minor breakthrough and it's been sitting right there in front of us ...I suppose fresh eyes and mind help this morning...no brain overload yet[]Ok have a close look at that 1899 snippet...can't believe I missed it before..Cross, D.G., emp. Vancouver Soda water works.     emp.  is empoyee!!!! So Cross worked for the Meikle Bros.Vancouver Soda Water Works?...I guess so.....but the way directories list people back at that time it can make things confusing!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a little teaser I found for Gavin Dalziel Cross from Scotland in 1883 ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Based on my preliminary findings, Gavin Dalziel Cross was born in Scotland in 1862 and immigrated to Canada in 1892


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## Canadacan

Huh...that's cool![8D].....So he was in the merchant service before he came to Canada.


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## CanadianBottles

That Saskatoon bottle is interesting and I'd say at this point it's most likely that Dominion offered a generic design that could be customized if you didn't want to pay a graphic designer to design your own.  My theory is that the generic said "Double" and the bottlers thought "hey, I'll go with that" or maybe thought that they had to include the name.  Since there's no reference to Double on the Saskatoon bottle it seems highly unlikely to be a little-known franchiser.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This document is a little confusing because it's titled ... *Scots in USA and Canada - 1825-1875* ... and yet it clearly shows dates later than 1875. In any event, it shows a date of 1894 for Gavin D Cross and has him located in Langley Prairie which, apparently, is an earlier name for the town of Langley which is located about 40 miles southeast of Vancouver. Unfortunately it doesn't tell us much, but I'm still searching for more. At present I do not know what the boxed [?????] part represents.         1. Entire Page2.  Title3.  Listing for Gavin


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## Canadacan

Yes I know Langley quite well...I'm an hour from there, That's bottle stomping grounds for many of the bottles I've posted that came from Napier's Country Antiques...a couple of which were Cross's!..lol, and then there is the original Fort Langley with the little town that I hit the antique shops at.Great stuff you've posted none the less, I looked at Langley prairie directory and no listing for him in 94 or 95?His name dose not appear until 1896 in the Vancouver directory....but still the best was seeing that snippet from 1895!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still trying to fill in some missing links, but here's a preliminary timeline I've come up with for ...

*                                           ~  Gavin Dalziel Cross  ~*

*1862 *- Born in Ardrossan, Ayrshire, Scotland ~ Father's name is Alexander Cross
*1871 *- Scotland Census list Gavin's father, Alexander, as a Minister / Scholar 
*1883 *- Gavin qualifies as a 2nd Mate Mariner in Scotland ~ 21 Years Old
*1885 *- Gavin qualifies as a 1st Mate Mariner in Scotland ~ 23 Years Old
*1891 *- Scotland Census list Gavin as an unemployed Master Mariner ~ 29 Years Old
*1892 *- Gavin immigrates to Vancouver, B.C., Canada ~ 30 Years Old


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. A "Master Mariner" is basically what is known in the U.S. as the "Captain" of a sea going vessel.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Food for thought / Coincidence or Connection? / Mariner's Navigation?                                                        *The Southern Cross*


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## Canadacan

Nice time line there Bob!....thanks so much!Wow a full fledged Captain at 30....and then gave it all up for the soda industry. He did quite well though...his company was very dominant , and lasted some 60+ years.Interesting about the Southern Cross.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Does anyone know the first and middle name for J. D. Cross? Based on what I've seen, I do think Gavin and J.D. were brothers. Gavin had a sister named Jane but no brothers that I am aware of. J.D. might be a cousin or uncle. ???


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## Canadacan

Hmmm Not sure about that at all. Thing I wonder about is where he went after the soda venture..maybe he went back to the merchant business. And really amazing that the company remained under excellent business leadership after he left and after A.D. Hossack left. The company managed to survive through the depression!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I have seen census records and other references for Gavin D. Cross after 1905 and will post some of those findings in the morning. In the meantime ...  The attached article is where I found the reference for J. D. Cross ... but I'm starting to think it might be a typo for G. D. Cross. For some reason I was under the impression there were two individuals, possibly brothers, who were involved with Cross & Co., but now I'm not sure. Did I imagine the second individual or is there proof positive of his existence and involvement? Article from ... Vancouver Daily World  ~  January 19, 1905


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## Canadacan

Yes that has be a typo...I never observed a J. D. Cross in the directories, I'll have to re-read this post now![]That's ok today I had it in my mind that Cross ran the company right to the end!...geesh[&:] I do a great job of confusing myself at times...most of the time[]


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is cropped from a *1911 *Vancouver, Canada census and list Gavin Cross' occupation as a ... *Sea Captain / ????? River* I can't make out the word that's before 'River' but perhaps someone else can.  The *11-2-31* is a backwards date for February 31, 1911, but I don't know what it represents.  Gavin would have been about 49 years old in 1911.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Correction ... I did some double-checking and discovered the 1911 census is not for Vancouver but for ... Province:  British ColumbiaDistrict:    New WestministerPlace of Habitation :  Ladner


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## CanadianBottles

I'm pretty sure that says "Fraser River" which is the major river flows through Vancouver.  Also that's the Iron Cross, which was the symbol of the German military at the time (or possibly not long before, as I'm not sure when Cross started using it), not the Southern Cross.  Someone just superimposed that similar cross over the Southern Cross, the two aren't related at all.  What's weird about them using the Iron Cross is that at that time the Germans were the enemy, or had recently been the enemy.  Seems a strange symbol to want associated with your product.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I was kind of leaning toward the cross symbol as possibly being related to the cross atop the crown on Gavin Cross's 1883 2nd Mate certificate, which I believe is the crown of Scotland. ??? 1.  Gavin's 1883 2nd Mate certificate2.  Cropped portion of certificate with crown and cross


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's Gavin Cross's *Master *(Captain) certificate dated October 12, 1888 when Gavin was 26 years old and four years prior to his immigrating to Canada in 1892.


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## Canadacan

Yea it could be a Crusader Cross at the very tip of the crown....my theory is he just simply chose it as a symbol because his last name is Cross..that's all, I mean initially he may have chosen a specific one but there are three different types used over the years .The earliest style on the bottles is Cross Pattee ...then the Cross Formee, and on the last bottles the Formee Pattee.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The *Crusader states* were a number of mostly 12th- and 13th-century feudal *states* created by Western European *crusaders* in Asia Minor, Greece and the Holy Land, and during the Northern Crusades in the eastern Baltic area.


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## Canadacan

[attachment=Cross's variations.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB

I wonder where this bottle fits into the scheme of things? There was no date mentioned in the description but it appears to be a very early acl. I had to color enhance it so as to see the label which reads ... *Cross & Co. Limited  /  Cross Logo  /  Vancouver, B.C. *


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## Canadacan

Thanks for your continued interest Bob..contributions have been wonderful[] So ol Gavin went back to sailing hey, neat to know!...and yes I concur that document states Fraser River.I need that bottle!....I was wondering if that style was used by them and now we know!....was the bottle for sale?It's a generic design used by many bottlers and was used from approximately 1945-1955.I cant quite make out the cross...it appears to be the latest style.


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## SODAPOPBOB

CC The acl was not for sale - I found the picture randomly. As for Gavin Cross going to sea, there's this from *1907* *http://books.google.com/books?id=VWvNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA445&dq=G+D+Cross+Vancouver&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3YGDVICYIYPUoATCw4K4Cw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=G%20D%20Cross%20Vancouver&f=false*


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## SODAPOPBOB

I came across this colorized example of the 1936 picture that was posted earlier and thought it was worth sharing ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I also came across this six pack that wasn't dated but is probably from the late 1950s or early 1960s ...


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## Canadacan

Well good to know the bottle exists!,another one to pursue[]....speaking of which....I just got a lead on a Black Bear brand ACL..now I already have that bottle but the label is faded, it's the 3rd bottle in the picture at the start of the post; and from the same person I think I have another variation that fits in between bottle #1 and #2..it's aqua green with what I hope is a variation on the large B.....I'll have to do a new family photo soon!..see fuzzy attached pic. That picture looks strange with color added to it[] Funny thing that you posted that six pack...there is one for sale in our local antique shop!, bottles and carton...of course they wanted too much for it[] [attachment=Cross acl-1.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

This is a Cross bottle I'd be interested in being able to see, too bad it's only the description: http://openmov.museumofvancouver.ca/node/115548  And here's a description of the bottle Bob posted, which mentions the date code: http://openmov.museumofvancouver.ca/node/115548 Funny that two of those paper cases survived, never seen another BC soda case of anything.   Guess it's possible that it's the same case, mind you, since that listing was a few years ago I think and it might have since changed hands.  It was too expensive back then too.


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## Canadacan

Yes it Would be great to see for sure....the date code sounds like 1968?....or 1962, 62 make sense because as far as I know they were around till 63. Hmmmmm [8|]  the other link is a duplicate ..lol The owner of our local shop has two of those cases, he had one sitting in the display case and I noticed he had another one behind the counter today! He said a fellow bought it yesterday and that it was on hold, the guy said he was a long time bottle & Cross's collector and had never ever seen one[]....geesh should I just cough up the cash!I left behind a Green glass 12oz I think...with a Cross's GA paper label on it...ever see one? similar or identical to the ACL...not sure if I mentioned it before. It is fully intact but had varnish spilled on it [] so much of the label is darkend off., maybe I should just grab it and stop being a fussy nit picker!...it's only $5 bucks.And he had another Cross & Co. Black Bear...with the ACL on the back but it's another variation (embossing) to the ones I've already pictured..don't think it's the same as that bluish/green one pictured above....although it may be the same as the ACL beside it. The Cross is different for sure and the positioning of Vancouver is not the same as the other 3.Well I hope my contact doesn't bail on me for those two bottles!


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## Canadacan

Ahh right here is the Cross's down at the local shop...at least I know that one should still be there..lol [attachment=Cross-Variation.jpg]


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## Fleetbag

Several Cross and Black Bear bottles on Ebay right now. Put up by someone from BC. Not exactly cheap.


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## CanadianBottles

My bad, here's the correct link: http://openmov.museumofvancouver.ca/node/115549Definitely get it if it's only five bucks!  I almost never came across BC paper labels that I could afford, even in bad shape.  Don't think I've ever seen a Cross paper label.  Are you saying it's an ACL with a paper label?  That's pretty unusual in itself.  I've seen one of that variation of the Black Bear bottles on Ebay, but it was in terrible condition and ended up selling for way too much.


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## Canadacan

Fleetbag said:
			
		

> Several Cross and Black Bear bottles on Ebay right now. Put up by someone from BC. Not exactly cheap.


Hey thanks for that!...be interesting to where they go $....bothe the Lions listed already got opening bids @ $35There is a Double Drink from the same seller...@ $40 opening bid..some of the white in the lettering is missing, is in a littler rougher shape than mine and I paid 25% less.


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## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:
			
		

> My bad, here's the correct link: http://openmov.museumofvancouver.ca/node/115549Definitely get it if it's only five bucks!  I almost never came across BC paper labels that I could afford, even in bad shape.  Don't think I've ever seen a Cross paper label.  Are you saying it's an ACL with a paper label?  That's pretty unusual in itself.  I've seen one of that variation of the Black Bear bottles on Ebay, but it was in terrible condition and ended up selling for way too much.


yea I had a look last night. Oh man I was there today and I still left the paper label behind!!!..lol...it's ugly!.. it's on green glass....ahh yea I'm like a yo yo with it!...at home I say I should get it, then I see and say that's just ugly!I brought the embossed home ..has a pretty faded ACL on the back...not as bad as the 1945 dated bottle though, It's in the sink getting cleaned up []


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## Canadacan

This is the current line up with the new bottle. I had not realized there was a size variation on the ACL!I will eventually get an ACL that is in decent shape.Note there are so far 4 distinct 'B's,  four distinct layouts for 'VANCOUVER',   4 distinct Cross logos ...my new one could be argued that it's the same as the previous but it has more curvature to it. And also 4 various layouts for the 'Cross & Co ltd.' above the Cross logo. So there we go 4 distinct variations on the front embossing. [attachment=New Cross bottle1.jpg] [attachment=New Cross bottle.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

I still say go for it if it's only five bucks, who knows, it might be the only known example!  Not a lot of paper label sodas survived from any company, and any from BC (except Felix Distributors, strangely) are really scarce.  I'm really glad I got one of those Cross bottles when I did, it was years ago and I had no idea how they are to find, especially in good condition.  Still have to find all those other Black Bear variations, though, which isn't easy living in this part of the country.


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## Canadacan

Yea I think that seller on ebay  has em priced a little high?..but who knows. Ages ago when I got the first Cross bottle #1 , I never realized there would be so many variations...but knowing that bottle spanned 4 decades it's understandable.As I write this I'm trying to figure out how to nail down another Cross's variation[] It's a doozie too!!! you ready for this?....I don't have a pic but the back is marked 'Bottle Made in the USA' !!! I was dumb founded!! lolOk now I present to you this piece of crusty paper labeled bottle and of course some others that tagged along home with me [] [attachment=Cross's paper.jpg][attachment=Cross's paper1.jpg]


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## Canadacan

Well I let a Cross's variation slip away[] It would have been great to have but was in a group of three bottles and I already have the other 2 that were with it. The price was just to steep IMHO ...and true they say sometimes you just can't have it all!...but I got the next best thing, photos to document it's existence![] This would have been a 5th variation for me as it has BOTTLE MADE IN USA embossed on the back and the Cross & Co. Ltd is a placement variation.Possible that the large B is also a variation. [attachment=Cross-made in USA - Copy.JPG][attachment=Cross-made in USA1 - Copy.JPG]


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## Canadacan

Well with missing out on bottle variations and other contacts flaking out on me I was down in the dumps[>:]But alas a nice little envelope showed up today with this little gem![] The only thing that could have made it better?...well nothing really!...it's uncrimped in near mint condition[] I would be guessing it's from the late 30's or 1940's but I have no real way of knowing.  [attachment=Cross Club Soda cap.jpg]


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## CanadianBottles

Hey I like that paper label Cross's!  Even if it is ugly it's a pretty early one.  I wonder where it fits in with the chronology of Black Bear bottles.  Right after the last ACL?  That Mac's is the version I have, I'm assuming the North Star and Husky aren't from BC, right?  Though I guess there are probably still some brands I've never heard of.That Black Bear bottle is an interesting one, never seen another one of those either.  Never realized how many variations of that bottle there are.  I guess a lot of bottles are like that.  I have five or so variations of that McCulloch's Aerated Waters bottle from Vernon, and that one's a generic design no less.And I think you're right on the date of that cap, it looks very similar to all the other BC caps I've seen from that era.  Actually come to think of it I've never seen a BC soda cap from any other era, not that I can think of anyway.


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## Canadacan

Thanks CB [] yes I'm glad I took your advice and went back and got it. So the paper label bottle is dated 1950...taking into consideration they reused the bottles (case wear on this one is minimal) so the label may be a bit later. And my latest Black Bear with an ACL is 1945, and on the last style of ACL that bottle design was Reg. in 1956...my green one with the red cross is dated 1958, there could be earlier examples?...but for now we have a window of 1946-1958...but they may have used them for shorter or even longer time period and introduced them in around 1940, tough to really know though. Yea variations are fun! did you see that one of the Lion's on ebay just in the last few weeks?That was a fluke thing I got that Mac's!..I was at the store that day to get the Paper Cross and the store owner said just wait I'll run home and grab a box I have with some other bottles you might want, I grabbed all those that are in that picture lol.The North Star is from Prince Rupert and the Husky is from Wisconsin (1945)...it is in such pristine condition I could not bear to leave it behind[]


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## CanadianBottles

Oh hey, Prince Rupert, so there is another BC brand I've never seen before!  I have a feeling there are probably a lot of Northern BC sodas I've never seen, you don't see much from that part of the province.  Speaking of Cross's variations, do you have a 6oz orange peel Cross's bottle?  I've got one of those and figure it must have been for one of their products that wasn't ginger ale.And yeah I saw that Lions bottle, never knew that the larger version of that design was used in BC, that's another one to look out for now.


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## Canadacan

That Prince Rupert is the only size/style I've seen to date. The Lions was an 11 oz...uncommon size indeed.Yes I have two of the Cross's 6.5 oz orange peel, one is green glass with the Priof top, and one clear, they are pictured on the first post.[]


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## CanadianBottles

Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  Oops.  Man it's hard to keep track of all these.  Hey do you know of any other northern BC brands?  Only other one I know of is Dawson Creek Beverages, which had a brand called Tall that I have.  I think you have one of theirs with a white ACL.


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## Canadacan

For more recent brands in Northern BC I'm not really sure. I know of the Dawson Creek one...don't have any of their bottles. Pioneer co's there was Royal Bottling Works Hazelton B.C.1914-?....north west west of PG...about half way to Prince Rupert along the #16 highway. Then there was Albion Bottling Co. T.Z. Krusner 2nd Ave & 8th St. Prince Rupert B.C....(no date)....  also Crown Bottling Works 3rd Ave & 6th St. Prince Rupert B.C....(no date)J.H. Falconer Bennett B.C.1900 - 1904....an old abandon gold rush town.I would like to think there had to be some kind of mom & pop operation in Prince George. And I forgot the seller that had the Lions bottles had a Fort William ACL!...now I would assume that's from Williams Lake but it was not marked as such.


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## CanadianBottles

No, his Fort William bottle was probably from Fort William, Ontario.  I thought you had that Dawson Creek bottle, guess I must have seen that one somewhere else on here.I know about the early companies thanks to the Pioneer Soda Water Companies book, but finding information on more recent companies is a lot harder.


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## Canadacan

Ahh I had suspicions it was from Ontario!.. Don't think there was too many in the north but always on the lookout, you just never know what will show up because of the internet.


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## Canadacan

Here is a little update to this topic, figured the best place of all to post these new bottles is right here.Well I was pretty happy this past weekend to add this 28 oz Cross's ACL in green!...as well as the 8 oz ACL that has a decent  label...I have the other beside it now so yo can see the embossed side too, the last two are previously posted bottles and  are there just for comparison. I would still like to find an upgrade on the larger label variation...which is the older one on the right.Interesting to see the latest style of ACL on that 28 oz with the ' Since 1894'....which probably ran till the end in 1963. *Dates for bottles pictured left to right 1956, 1945, 1945, 1942, 1950 * [attachment=20150713_212457_resized.jpg]


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## Canadacan

This is my first inside thread from Cross & Co. The condition is excellent with strong embossing, sure wish it had the threaded cap with it. I believe it is the more common height, it stands at 8 1/2 inches......there is one that is much rarer that stand at 7 3/8. [attachment=20151010_232702.jpg]


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## Canadacan

About a month back I spotted this bottle for sale on ebay...from a seller in my area, of course the bottle was way to pricey for a modern NDNR bottle and I never acquired it 
But I did get photos!...it's a 28oz NDNR bottle with a paper label, crazy thing is the bottle is dated 1968!.......so Cross's seems to have still been sold at that time.... maybe a correction for the time line could be change to 1968 instead of 1963....things that make you go hmmm


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## Canadacan

Well it has been a long time since I've had anything worth posting!...so here it goes,  just last week I scored this great Cross & Co. bottle crate, it's dated 1947...which happens to be the last year the Whistle co. of Vancouver was listed in the telephone directories. they started bottling Whistle in Vancouver about 1922 up to 1947...about that time the seemed to change gears and started bottling Kist....what every became of Whistle? ..I suppose they could no longer compete with Crush in this market.
One of the strange things though, is I have never seen an ACL Whistle bottle in BC ...I do have an example from Winnipeg dated either 43 or 53.... I lean toward 43 because this paticular label design was in use by at least 1939.



My Whistle line up ...but not including my 28oz.
*[SUB][/SUB]*


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## CanadianBottles

I didn't know that Whistle ACL bottles existed at all, I've never seen one anywhere.  Do any of those bottles make mention of Cross?  I've got a Cross bottle that looks almost exactly like that one on the left.  Never seen a Whistle bottle like that.
That's a nice crate, I like the phrasing "Wrapped in bottles," I've never heard anyone describe a beverage as being wrapped in a bottle before!


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## Canadacan

You bet they do!...that one is an 11oz ACL but they also came in 30oz...as for 10oz or 28oz I can't say for sure it they did. Yes there are some similarities between those bottles, the Cross's on the end are both US made (1926-32)...the first two Whistles I can't identify a makers mark, the middle bottle is from Dominion glass. On a side note I came across the two stippled Whistles at an antique store last summer and could not leave them behind as I have never in all my years seen them before! No mention of Cross on the Whistle bottles...I believe they were used up to about 1926...well that was the patent date embossed on the new curvy whistle, no doubt they were used a bit longer.
Yes I was pleased to get the crate!...you can see the in the old photos the similar crate was used. I like the slogan as well!...I believe it was a much older one, I ran across it some place but can't locate it right now.


*[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]*


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## CanadianBottles

I really like that Kork n Seal bottle on the far right, not sure I've seen that one before.  I think I knew that it existed at one point, but maybe only due to an illustration in an advertisement.  I actually can't think of any other Kork n Seal soda bottles used in Canada.


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## Canadacan

Oh that one...yea that's called a Priof top, lol!, the only reason we have a Canadian bottle with it is because Cross's chose to order bottles from the USA. It was new for 1926. Strange ...I thought I had posted that bottle on this thread?....guess I did not or they disappeared when the transfer took place.


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## CanadianBottles

Ah that's the name I was trying to think of, but I forgot the spelling and couldn't verify that it was actually called a Prioff on Google.  I don't remember seeing that bottle on here before, I don't remember seeing a picture of one before at all.


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## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:


> Ah that's the name I was trying to think of, but I forgot the spelling and couldn't verify that it was actually called a Prioff on Google.  I don't remember seeing that bottle on here before, I don't remember seeing a picture of one before at all.



So it turns out that Cross's PRIOF is posted on page #1 at the top...haha. I only have one other bottle with that top and it's an Orange Crush clear 8oz krinkly from the USA....apparently very scarce!


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## CanadianBottles

Well look at that!  No idea how I completely forgot about that one.


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## odonaher

Hi, I have the green Cross and Co bottle with the priof top. It's in very good condition. I'm looking for sources for it, but can't find any. Do you have any information or can point me in the right direction? Thanks


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## Canadacan

odonaher said:


> Hi, I have the green Cross and Co bottle with the priof top. It's in very good condition. I'm looking for sources for it, but can't find any. Do you have any information or can point me in the right direction? Thanks


So you are saying you have that green priof..right?.... and your looking for sources to get more of them?


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## BillHaddo

L

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Canadacan

BillHaddo said:


> L
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk



What are you trying to say?


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## BillHaddo

Canadacan said:


> What are you trying to say?


I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to send you a message. Cool bottles though!

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Canadacan

It's been a while since I've had anything to add, and I do now but almost forgot about this thread because of other distractions!
So last year I was able to pick up one of those Cross's cartons that Bob had posted way back, and earlier in the winter I was able to fill the carton with bottles from an auction I won.
I had seen this carton in our local shop a couple of years ago filled with the 10oz blue cross bottles, passed on it due to the price at the time. But I'm really not sure if it truly is a late 50's carton?...for some reason I keep thinking it could have been filled with the 1940's style 8oz bottles...it just seems to be a better match, but I may be wrong. 

Another auction win was a Lot of soda crowns in pretty dirty condition, but it paid off because in it were several Cross's crowns! There were a few rare Whistle ones marked Cross & Co. Vancouver B.C....I believe they are 1930's and not from the paper label era but were most likely on the curvy fishnet embossed, and also several Cross's Extra Dry Ginger ale...they really do seem to match the 8oz 1930's-40's style bottle. 
The other most significant find was the early Wynola crowns marked Cross & Co Vancouver B.C., I knew Wynola had to be bottled out here but never knew by who. The last two are probably a bit later, one is a Lime Rickey and the other is Orange.


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## Canadacan

It has been a long time since I've had anything new to add to my Cross collection. This is a clear quart I recently picked up from a friend, the ACL label matches the 7oz bottles that have the 'Non Alcoholic' statement, it has an odd size listed 29 fluid ozs.
I have a green glass quart on hold with the same label but cant recall the size listed on the back.


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## CanadianBottles

Just came across this and thought it was interesting.  Not only did they rip off Coca Cola on the back of the blue ACL, but that red ACL was a blatant ripoff of Schweppes.


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## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:


> Just came across this and thought it was interesting.  Not only did they rip off Coca Cola on the back of the blue ACL, but that red ACL was a blatant ripoff of Schweppes.


Well that's pretty cool!...but I'm not so certain it's not a rip off. Remember that glass companies supplied generic bottles right?, they did so to with generic labels.
Here are a couple examples from Double Header Drink and Double Drink, then Drink Canora and Drink Lee's, there was also Dr. Wells and Crown Beverages...but with that one I'm not certain Crown was authorized to use it. There are more but I can't think of them right now.
It's possible that label on Schweppes precedes the Cross's...or more than likely does, and they never continued with it's use.
Anyways this is pretty facinating!


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## CanadianBottles

The reason why I'm assuming it's a rip-off rather than a generic label is that as far as I know the generic labels were all used by small Canadian companies within Canada, whereas the Schweppes label is British.  Schweppes is also a major, widely-recognizable international brand which would not be using any sort of generic designs.  It's definitely possible that Cross only started using the design after Schweppes abandoned it and that's why Schweppes never sued them though.  As for Dr. Wells and Crown I have a feeling that Crown was not authorized to use it, though I'm not sure what motivation there would have been for them to rip of Dr. Wells - would Canadians at that time have even known what Dr. Wells was?


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## Canadacan

Ok starting with the Dr. Wells. It was bottled by Crown Beverages in Winnipeg...I'm assuming they adopted or borrowed the ACL style from Dr. Wells because latter bottles have a different ACL all together. 






So I did not realize the photo you posted is featuring a sign from the UK. I can't seem to locate any Canadian Schweppes ads with that style, and I'm beginning to think that was used exclusively outside of Canada because any ads I find are from London, and many from Australia. I wonder when the product was introduced to western Canada on a large scale. I also noted that label was used by Schweppes in the 30's right into the late 50's. Also keep in mind this label was for their 'Dry' ginger ale. 
So if this label was a mainstay for Schweppes why did they not pursue Cross's to stop them, or maybe they did?

Here is some type of Art ad, I assume it's from the 30's and depicts several of their labels.



London News 1930


And a Uk magazine ad from 1954


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## CanadianBottles

Oh I didn't realize that Dr. Wells was bottled by Crown.  Yeah that's a really interesting case then, I think it's the only example I've seen of a franchisee using the label design of their franchise product for their own other flavours.  I'd really like to know the story behind that one.  

Yeah I'm not sure when Schweppes started having a real presence in Western Canada.  Do you know when Schweppes started being bottled in Canada at all?  I only know of their Canadian ACLs which showed up in the 50s or 60s, and before that I've only seen the British bottles, though those were clearly used fairly widely in Canada.  It's possible that Schweppes wasn't really marketing their products in Western BC at the time and they were only available in hotels and such as imports.  If that's the case they might just have never noticed that Cross had copied their label design, or if they did didn't care because of how little they were really trying to capture the market in BC.  I'm honestly more surprised that Cross got away with that Coca Cola script, considering how harsh Coke was about suing anyone coming close to copying their trademarks.


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## SODABOB

Schweppes ...

I heard my name mentioned and thought I'd share a some tid-bits of information and a few pics ...


Schweppes Story - Established in 1794 - Three Parts - Best I've seen with some cool pictures of various bottles

http://mikesheridan.tripod.com/schweppes1.htm




eBay paper label bottle - $425  (see attachment)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-...981494?hash=item3d34641db6:g:XEUAAOSw9mFWJ8-Z 


Lemon Squash Ad - $856.84 in U.S. currency (see attachment)


https://www.joseflebovicgallery.com/pages/books/CL171-36/schweppes-palarino-and-lemon-squash


Attachments ...

1. Earliest newspaper reference I could find - Scotland - 1799
2. Earliest U.S. newspaper reference - 1840
3. Earliest Canadian newspaper reference - 1880
4. Lemon Squash Ad - 1931 - I wonder if examples of these bottles exist?  I looked around but could not find one.
5. Lemon Squash ad - circa 1930s - $856.84 - (see link)
6. eBay paper label bottle - $425 - (see link)


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## Canadacan

Bob thanks for the input! I had noticed that Ginger Beer bottle on ebay, the Lemon Squash and Orange Squash is something I've never seen!
 So unfortunatly none of this information seems to give any clues about Cross's copy cat label, other than the fact that the Schweppes products were being sold or advertised pretty early at least in Eastern Canada. I definitely  need to see what's available for B.C. news print ads pertaining to Schweppes Dry.


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## SODABOB

Cc

My initial post was to establish some dates for Canada as a whole. I didn't realize the main focus was on western Canada. So this time around I looked through the Vancouver newspapers --  some of which I am attaching. There are literally hundreds of references for both Cross & Co. as well as Schweppes. But thought it best to post those with illustrations/pictures of bottles. They are titled accordingly with source and dates, which can be seen by moving your cursor over the image.  If some of them turn out too small to read, just save them to your files for closer examination.  Following this I will see what I can find regarding the so called copycat labels. I hope the attachments will help in some manner.  

*1929*


 

*1900* 



*1914*



*1955*


----------



## Canadacan

Bob thanks again!...this refreshes my thoughts now a bit. So that Schweppes label was advertised in Canada pretty early (1914)...I'm sure it was advertised in Vancouver at some point.
I forgot about that Cross's ad as well, and we can see that the label was being used as early as 1929. 
Note that Schweppes used a different label for their regular ginger ale.

So was this a purposely copied label?...maybe. If it was why would Schweppes not go after them for the label? I think if Cross's did copy them..which it appears to be so, the changed just enough so they were not infringing.
First off the logo in lower left, Schweppes vs Cross's.., different. Second is the Schweppes label has a boarder, the Cross's has no boarder. It can't be that Cross was paying homage to the UK brand because he was Scottish!


----------



## CanadianBottles

The sense I get from these ads is that Schweppes wasn't really operating in BC all that much, they were just shipping cases of bottles out to retailers in BC.  So it's possible that they never noticed the label similarity.  As you say it's also possible that it was just different enough to not be considered copyright infringement in those days.
Also I was curious about the ginger ale bottle shown at the top of that 1929 ad, can you see what it is?  It's not one that I recognize.


----------



## SODABOB

From the 1929 Cross & Co. Full Page Article ...



1929 - 40 years = 1889


----------



## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:


> The sense I get from these ads is that Schweppes wasn't really operating in BC all that much, they were just shipping cases of bottles out to retailers in BC.  So it's possible that they never noticed the label similarity.  As you say it's also possible that it was just different enough to not be considered copyright infringement in those days.
> Also I was curious about the ginger ale bottle shown at the top of that 1929 ad, can you see what it is?  It's not one that I recognize.



I never got a proper zoomed in on that center bottle myself, but I'm assuming its their regular ginger ale... which would be extremely rare to find.


----------



## SODABOB

The center bottle is an Ambassador Ginger Ale


----------



## Canadacan

Awsome!...thanks Bob, it's been a while since I've looked at any of the Cross stuff in the archives, I had the original ad saved on my computer but when I zoomed to crop it went too fuzzy. 
Ambassador was also an 'extra dry', interesting!...that is a label that no one has ever seen really.


----------



## SODABOB

I have been looking for an actual Ambassador Ginger Ale bottle and/or paper label but can't find one. In fact, the ONLY illustration I can find is the one in the 1929 article I posted earlier. There are lots of ads like the one attached here, but no illustrations of their bottles ...

*1929*


----------



## SODABOB

This will wrap it up for me today, but I will be back with more in a few days - possibly tomorrow if the Boogeyman doesn't get me ...

*​Happy Halloween*

According to this Canadian patent, Schweppes was granted a trademark for their label in 1907. Please let me know if the description jives with the paper labels y'all are interested in.  I'm also looking for something similar about the Cross & Co. but haven't found anything yet.


----------



## SODABOB

One for the road ...

I did a quick search and found this torpedo bottle with a Schweppes paper label that has the image of a water *FOUNTAIN *on it. The 1907 trademarks I posted described a fountain.  Notice it says Trade ... Mark on either side of the fountain image.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

Its kind of hard to see, but the bottle in the 1914 newspaper article has a fountain on the neck label ...


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

In case you are wondering where I'm going with this -- its to establish that Schweppes was granted a Trademark for their label.  Now we need to determine if/when Cross & Company applied for and/or was granted a Trademark for their label?  If that can be determined, it might shed some light on the so called copycat issue.  By the way, which brand was introduced first in Canada; Schweppes or Cross?


----------



## CanadianBottles

Wow Bob that research is fantastic, thank you!  I don't think you'll ever find an Ambassador bottle, there's a good chance that there just aren't any left in existence.  Lost BC paper label soda bottles probably outnumber known examples 10 to 1.  Many have only one known example.  

That's really interesting to see that Schweppes was granted a trademark for their label, the description of it being "chocolate coloured" is throwing me off but otherwise sounds like the red and white label.  

As for which brand was available in Canada first, your newspaper ad from 1880 confirms that Schweppes was here before Cross & Co was established, and I expect that Schweppes was available in some capacity long before 1880 due to its ubiquity in the UK in those days.

I'd be extremely surprised if Cross was granted a trademark for their label, considering that they were only ever a local bottler I'm not sure they'd have bothered trademarking something as mundane as that even if they hadn't copied the design from a major brand.  They did seem to be an unusually bold bottler in terms of flirting with copyright infringement; I can't think of any other post-1930 bottler who came anywhere near as close to ripping off Coca Cola's trademark as Cross & Co did.


----------



## Canadacan

Cross's was not established untill 1894...but not really because he was involved with Vancouver Soda Water Works and Calley & Co. prior, Cross's does not show up in the directory until 1899-1900.
The only thing I have seen Registered is the Black Bear Brand, oh and a correction I need to make, I showed an ACL label for Cross's that has no border, but in fact the paper label version has a border.

I don't believe all bottlers necessarily had a trade mark reg. or copy right noted on their labels, but maybe it was more of a thing for international or national brands, So some deep digging is needed to find out for the Cross's brand. On a case about local bottlers trade marking, Felix Bottlers did so with their Double AA product....speaking of them, were they even authorized to use Felix the cat?!


----------



## CanadianBottles

Oh that's a good question about Felix, it does seem odd that a local bottler would be granted rights to use a pretty iconic cartoon character doesn't it?


----------



## SODABOB

Backing up for a moment ... 

The so called "cone" shaped Schweppes bottles exist and are generally described as being from the late 1800s -- but other than that I know very little about them. They came in at least two colors -- Clear (flint) and Green






(I'll Be Back)


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record ...

One thing is certain -- of the various changes the Schweppes labels went through over the years, the Fountain Trademark was in constant use, and is still being used today ...

Notice the Fountain and cow skulls on this label from the 1955 newspaper Ad I posted earlier



But on this Bicentennial (Bicentenary) bottle from 1983 the skulls mysteriously morph into a couple of trees. I wonder what that's all about?



The Fountain Trademark is still being used today


----------



## SODABOB

If anyone is interested, there is a Schweppes "Cone" shaped bottle currently on eBay ...

No bids yet = Starts at $15.16 in U.S. Currency 
Ships from Australia 
Shipping = $37.17 if shipped within Australia - More if shipped to the U.S.

Part of the description says Era = 1970s -- But that could be a typo for 1870s ??? 


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1983-Schwe...216859?hash=item235d107c5b:g:0FwAAOSwvt1WR~WR




(After this I am shifting my focus to the Copycat / Infringement possibility)


----------



## SODABOB

Before continuing I want to get these out of the way first -- which are titled accordingly


----------



## shotdwn

Bob, I wonder if Cross avoid a trademark infringement lawsuit by not using the actual trademark, which was the fountain, even though the label was a similar.


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn

Good question -- but the only response I have at the moment is ...


----------



## SODABOB

Unless I missed something, these are the two labels that sparked the Copycat / Infringement controversy. However, before saying more, I find it strange that I have been able to find examples of an actual Cross's bottle label but not an actual label for a Schweppes bottle.  The Schweppes label I inserted here was taken from the sign pictured on CanadianBottle's post #125. If someone has a picture of an actual Schweppes bottle label like the one shown here, please share it with us. 

The main similarities I see are ...

1.  The red bar at the top
2.  The [FONT=&quot]Ginger Ale script = Which appears not only similar but identical to me
3.   The round, red logos / trademarks in the lower left corner  
4.   Misc.


(More later / Wide open for discussion)



[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I love to find a good pic of the round, red symbol on the Schweppes label -- I can't say for certain, but I bet it depicts a fountain. ???


----------



## SODABOB

I'm not sure how well this Schweppes postcard will appear, but its the ONLY example of the copycat label I have been able to find.  When I zoom it in my photo file, both the main label and the neck label have a fountain in the red 'seal' -- It was described as originating from Yorkshire, England, but no date was attributed to it. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I honestly think it is save to assume that all of these particular labels have a fountain in the red seals. Which takes us back to Shotdwn's question about avoiding a trademark infringement.


----------



## CanadianBottles

Here's a pretty clear picture of one of the Schweppes bottles.  It is funny that we can't find a picture of a surviving example, but the picture there confirms that the red circle has a fountain in it.

I also found this interesting: looks like a similar label design was in use pretty recently - 1970s maybe?





And while I can't find a full-size version of the label still in existence, I did find a miniature version http://www.hilarypagetoys.com/Home/Products/87/1109#prettyphoto[pp_gal]/0/


----------



## SODABOB

CB

Great find -- But does anyone know WHERE those particular labels were used?  Canada -- U.S. -- England -- All three locations?  And WHEN?


----------



## SODABOB

This is one of those weird 'snippets' that sometimes comes up in my searches, but it confirms that Schweppes was prepared to, and occasionally did sue someone for label infringement.  I haven't fully researched this particular case, and don't know when it took place, but it appears that Schweppes won. But whether Schweppes ever sued Cross's is still the $64 question.


----------



## SODABOB

And there's this newer case where Cadbury Schweppes sued Solo ...

Note: Just establishing that Schweppes was definitely in the suing 'business' -- and still looking for Schweppes vs Cross & Co. if it exist?


----------



## SODABOB

I realize I'm jumping around, but thought this was extremely cool ...


*London, England ~ 1898


*


----------



## SODABOB

If Schweppes was concerned with protecting their name, trademark, and labels as early as 1857, then I gotta believe they would be all over a company like Cross's if they tried it -- especially if both companies were located in the same place at the same time such as Vancouver, B.C., Canada. I realize this is speculative and that we may never find confirmation of it, but it wouldn't surprised me in the least to discover that Schweppes was well aware of what Cross & Co. was up to, and possibly confronted them about it out of court, causing Cross & Co. to discontinue using ANYTHING that was even remotely similar to what Schweppes was using. such as an almost identical bottle label (Maybe?)

*
Preston, England ~ 1857*


----------



## CanadianBottles

The little bottles are definitely British based off of the coin, the miniature I have no idea about.  I've still never seen a Canadian-made Schweppes bottle predating the ACL era, so I'm curious about just how much presence Schweppes Ltd actually had in Canada.  All the ads we've seen from before 1955 were placed by Canadian agents for the company - in other words not directly by Schweppes Ltd.  It's also worth noting that Cross was using that label from 1929 until some point in the ACL era, likely at least the 1940s.  So that's 15 or so years that Schweppes didn't do anything about them copying their label design.  My current theory is that, despite Schweppes products being widely available in Canada at the time through local agents, Schweppes Ltd themselves weren't active enough in the country to bother with or possibly even know about imitators.


----------



## Canadacan

Just to elaborate on the time line for Cross's using that label. The eairliest we know is 1929 as previously mentioned,...it's possible it was even earlier right? I can establish that Cross used that label (although slightly modified sometime between 1947-56) from 1929-1956. It was changed to just the Cross logo on the bottle for sure by 1958. Interesting to note that Schweppes was still using that same label in question as late as 1958 in the UK.
So we have at a minimum 18 years and if we include the updated label that brings it to 27 years of use.

Something I thought about... The word 'Coca-Cola' is copyrighted when combined right?, but just cola is allowed to be used by others. My thought is that 'Ginger Ale' is not copyrighted and is used by all manufactures, so it's generic. 
The name of the product 'Cross's' is not even remotely close to the name 'Schweppes'
Next is the fact Schweppes copyrighted the water fountain symbol as their trademark along with obviously the name. I would imagine it's possible that Cross's copyrighted the 'Cross' symbol.

Maybe that was just not enough to pursue litigation for copyright infringement, and all the while Schweppes was well aware of it.


UK ad dated 1958



My three examples dated 1947, 1956, 1958


----------



## shotdwn

Could it be that it would not have been cost effective for Schweppes to pursue a trademark infringement case in Canada. They may have known about the similarities of the label but didn't have a big enough presents in Canada for the gain to out weigh the cost. Also with Cross being a Canadian company and Schweppes being a British one that the difference may have been enough that Schweppes knew they stood a good chance of losing the case in Canada trying to enforce their trademark.


----------



## CanadianBottles

Either scenario is definitely possible.  I'm pretty certain that copying the entire label design but changing the words and pictures wouldn't be allowed under copyright law today, but I have no idea how stringent it was in the 1920s-1950s.  I wonder if there are any other examples out there of a local bottler copying the complete label design of a major brand and changing the logo and words.


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

This Schweppes ad was published in a Vancouver, Canada newspaper in ...

*1914

*




I acknowledge what it says about a British connection and that it was imported -- but even with that said, based on the current timeline it precedes the 1929 Cross's date by fifteen years. If Schweppes was the first to use that particular label, that carries a lot of weight when it comes to trademarks. copyrights, etc. 

However, I also acknowledge ...

1.  British trademarks and U.S. trademarks might fall into different categories when it comes to rights and protections.

2.  It appears the only thing Schweppes was ever granted a trademark for was their name and the fountain logo.

3.  Maybe its like what Shotdwn said earlier, in that the different red seals; Schweppes with a fountain and Cross's with a cross, was enough of a difference that no infringement by either company had occurred.   

Or ...

4.  Neither company cared what the other company did and there was never an issue to begin with. 

If y'all want to pursue this further, I think it would help to keep digging and see if we can find two key components, namely ...

1. If Cross & Company ever applied for and was granted a trademark of any type. No trademark no protection?

2. If there are records of either company suing the other one.  For all we know at the present, Cross might have sued Schweppes.


----------



## SODABOB

These are the earliest references I can find for both companies in any of the VANCOUVER newspapers. I realize they don't address the label in question, and are merely intended to establish who was the first to advertise their ginger ale in Vancouver, BC, Canada.  I acknowledge that both companies might have been operating earlier in Vancouver, but if they did I can't find confirmation of it.  Please note I am focusing on Vancouver only and not other locations in Canada. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the label in question was only distributed in Vancouver.  
*
Schweppes ~ November 5, 1900

*

*
Cross & Co. ~ December 14, 1901

*


​


----------



## Canadacan

CanadianBottles said:


> Either scenario is definitely possible.  I'm pretty certain that copying the entire label design but changing the words and pictures wouldn't be allowed under copyright law today, but I have no idea how stringent it was in the 1920s-1950s.  I wonder if there are any other examples out there of a local bottler copying the complete label design of a major brand and changing the logo and words.



Well in Ontario Maedel's Beverages from Essex - Chatham basically used the Kist bottle with their name on it! I was told Kist went after them for it.


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> These are the earliest references I can find for both companies in any of the VANCOUVER newspapers. I realize they don't address the label in question, and are merely intended to establish who was the first to advertise their ginger ale in Vancouver, BC, Canada.  I acknowledge that both companies might have been operating earlier in Vancouver, but if they did I can't find confirmation of it.  Please note I am focusing on Vancouver only and not other locations in Canada. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the label in question was only distributed in Vancouver.



Yes correct, I don't believe Cross's was distributed outside of British Columbia, just the general Vancouver area.


----------



## SODABOB

I don't know the dates for either of these Cross & Co. seltzer bottles, and will try and determine that later, but they should confirm that Cross did Trademark their cross logo at some point. There are lots of these Vancouver Cross seltzer bottles to be found, but I don't know the exact dates for any of them -- but would GUESS they are from the 1920s and/or 1930s. Notice they both have REGISTERED on them and not applied for.


----------



## SODABOB

I posted this 1929 full page article earlier but wanted to point out a couple of things that might have been overlooked -- namely that Cross & Co's Ginger Ale is shown as one of the B.C. trademarks in 1929. They might have established their trademark earlier, but this should give us a date to start with and work backwards from. It also shows one of their bottles in the upper-left corner that has the type of label being discussed ...


----------



## SODABOB

Update / Reminder / Earliest of the two labels so far ...

Schweppes ~ 1914



Cross & Co. ~ 1929


----------



## Canadacan

That's what i suspected, and that's why the Cross is on the 1958 10oz.


----------



## SODABOB

Detour >>>>

I don't know which of the Vancouver Cross & Co bottles you guys have in your collections, but do you have or are you aware of this one?

http://openmov.museumofvancouver.ca/object/history/h20003732


----------



## CanadianBottles

I don't have that one in my collection and I've never seen one in person that I can remember, but I am aware that it exists.  I think it's one of the harder to find Cross ACLs.  Not sure where it fits into the timeline, that style of generic bottle was used for quite a while, to my knowledge at least from the mid-30s to the mid-50s.


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> Detour >>>>
> 
> I don't know which of the Vancouver Cross & Co bottles you guys have in your collections, but do you have or are you aware of this one?



Bob yes I was aware of that bottle, you did post it on this thread way back on page 6,7,8 maybe???..lol. I stated then the bottle style seemed to be used from about 1945-55...but I now concur what CB said for the earlier mid 30's as I now have one from a different bottler dated 1938. 
Yes CB they are difficult to obtain....I'm at ground zero here and have only had the opportunity to ad that bottle to my collection once in the last 5 years, and well....I'm still hunting


----------



## CanadianBottles

I dug a dump a while back which was packed with this style of bottle (embossed) and was mixed in with license plates from the mid-1930s.  None of them had date codes on the bottom but I'd be confident in assuming that they were in use at least by 1936.  Since they were also for bottlers located hundreds of kilometres away from where they were dug, they were likely in use a few years before that.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks for refreshing my memory about the Cross & Co. Limited bottle. I forgot it was posted earlier, and will keep my eyes peeled for one. 

When I said the 1914 Schweppes bottle with the script label was the earliest I could find from Vancouver, I should have said it was also one of the latest.  In other words, the ONLY examples I can find of that particular label in the Vancouver newspapers are from 1914 and 1915. Everything after 1915 depicts a different label.  But at this juncture I can't say with certainty if this means that particular label was only used for two years in Vancouver, or whether it was even used at all.  The lack of an actual bottle from Vancouver is concerning, and newspaper illustrations are not always the most reliable source.  I'm going out on a limb and suggest that since there are no known examples of the Schweppes script bottle from Vancouver, that they might not exist and never were used in Vancouver. There is a saying that bottles speak for themselves -- which is another way of saying -- no example suggest non-existence. 

However, check out these newspaper ads from London, England ...  

*1937

*


*1954

*


*Questions ...

*1.  Is it possible the Schweppes script label bottle was NEVER sold in Vancouver, Canada?

2.  If it never was sold in Vancouver, does that mean there was NEVER an issue with Cross & Co. using the script label?

3.  Is it possible the 1914 Vancouver newspaper ILLUSTRATION of the script label bottle originated in England and not Canada? 

4. Where is the PROOF that the Schweppes script label bottle was ever sold in Vancouver?


----------



## SODABOB

Speaking of *1954* Schweppes newspaper ads from ...

*Vancouver, Canada

*



Totally different labels than those advertised in London, England in 1954 ... ???


----------



## Canadacan

Well for the 1920's, 30's, 40's in the Vancouver area Cross's and Felix probably had the market tied up. Schweppes would have just been an import right? Yes maybe that ad originated in England

Well I was under the impression that Schweppes had two label designs one for Dry Ga and one for regular. I don't know the proper origins of this ad but it indicates it was from Paris.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks Cc

Other than in Ads and on a few Signs and Trays, the only ACTUAL Schweppes bottle I can find from Canada or England that has the script label is the one pictured here -- and its a miniature that I'm not sure where its from. Now I'm starting to wonder if the regular size script label bottles were even sold in England.   ???


----------



## SODABOB

I was able to determine the miniature bottle is from England -- but still don't know when it was made. I enlarged and enhanced the attached pics the best I could -- maybe they will provide a clue or two.  I'd sure like to know what it says below the red seal -- but can't make it out.


----------



## CanadianBottles

I suspect it says "By Appointment to Her Majesty The Queen" in the first two lines.  The words are roughly the right length and shape.  I would be extremely surprised if these bottles weren't sold in the UK considering how many ads show them across multiple decades.  Keep in mind that bottles of this era are not widely collected over there, so it's not too surprising to me that no one would have bothered to post a picture of one online.  For example, just look at how few British mid-century soda or milk bottles show up online compared to Canadian ones, despite the UK having twice the population.


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

I agree its hard to find certain UK bottles - I'm experiencing that as we speak - but I would still like to find at least one of the regular-size bottles just to confirm they actually exist. 


By the way, here's the link where I found the miniature bottle ...

1. The bottles are listed alphabetically -- Scroll to the Schweppes listings
2. Then click where it says "View Info" 
3. Then click on the full page / expand symbol in the upper right corner
4. Use slide bars to view close up


http://www.hilarypagetoys.com/Home/Products/87/0


If I understand what it says on their home page, the collection was apparently accumulated between 1937 and 1954


----------



## CanadianBottles

Here's another image I found.  Looks like at some point the fountain in the red circle was replaced with a coat of arms.





I also found this very high resolution image of one of these labels from  1942.  Note the text at the bottom: "Issued only by Schweppes Limited" which suggests they were having problems with imitators.


----------



## SODABOB

CB

Fantastic Finds!

Because the bottles shown in the ads appear to be actual bottles and not just illustrations, that confirms they were produced at some point. However (and please don't think I'm being obstinate for saying this) it only confirms they were advertised and not necessarily produced for distribution. This goes back to what I said earlier about "bottles speak for themselves." Which means if they were actually produced for distribution, then there's gotta be some examples of them somewhere. I'm attaching a 1930 magazine ad from London that shows one of the bottles -- if it represents an actual bottle sold at the time, then we are talking about a possible timeline from 1930 to 1942 - which is twelve years. That's a long time and a lot of bottles if they were actually produced for distribution. And yet we still can't find an ACTUAL bottle. Call me a skeptic, but I'm still not 100% convinced they were ever put on the open market. I honestly think we are missing something, but not sure what it is ... Wait! I just remembered! We're missing an actual bottle! (Lol)


----------



## Canadacan

Well they still had a 'Dry' Ga in the 70's...but in a modern label style.






I'm more so of the thought that the bottle was produced, that's just too many different decades of the same label advertised for it to not have been produced.
Here it is on a tray from the 40's - 50's


----------



## SODABOB

Notice on the Tray and other examples where SCHWEPPES is embossed on the heel. It could be those types of bottles have been right in front of us all along but what's missing are the PAPER LABELS.  The example I'm attaching might be an example - but missing the paper label. So it could be that what we should be looking for are not the bottles themselves, but the paper labels that were intended for them. Of course this might be a lot easier said than done because certain paper labels are extremely hard to find. Think of how many millions of original Coca Cola paper labels there were - but try and find one now and it will not be as easy as it seems. So, from this point forward I am going to focus on the paper labels and see what I can find. By the way, these particular bottles aren't necessarily easy to find either. So far I have only found two examples. At the present I don't know who made them or when, but intend to look into that.


----------



## SODABOB

Yesterday, I sent an inquiry to this Schweppes collector / website in Germany to see if he had one of the bottles and/or paper labels, or knew anything about them - and he (Hans-Jurgen Krackher) sent me a reply this morning saying he would get back to me soon.  If anyone can solve the mystery, I'm hoping he can. 

https://spiritschweppes.com/2014/03/03/storytelling-schweppes-since-1783/




He also sent me this picture that isn't shown on his website


----------



## SODABOB

Check out this Schweppes ashtray. Especially notice the bottle is a blob-top with a cork. The base is marked with "E.P. Co. ~ Empire Works ~ Stoke-on-Trent ~ England.  I haven't fully researched the company's history, but I did find the attached newspaper snippet that may or may not date the ashtray ...


----------



## SODABOB

I just received this pic from Hans-Jurgen Krackher who described it as an original paper label. So they do exist! He said he will get back to me later in the week with more information.


----------



## Canadacan

Yes notice he is the fellow with the porcelene sign that shows the bottle, but yet he has no example.

Ahh ha he does have a label!....you almost ate your hat Bob!...lol!
Anyways this is great!


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

Notice we posted at the same time = 7:46 AM (PT) ... I must have beat you to the draw by only seconds. Even though I don't recall saying I would eat my hat, its good to know I won't have to now. By the way, I sent Mr. Krackher a reply and asked if he knew the date of the label, as well as when they were first and last used.  I will let you know when I hear back from him again.


----------



## SODABOB

I just heard from Hans again and he sent me the following links. The first one is to a Pinterest blog he maintains, and the other one is to a book he recommends and described as the "Holy Bible" of all things related to Schweppes.  I think he forgot to answer my question about the date of the paper label, but will cross that bridge later. He said he is going to send me some more stuff, but I don't know what it is or when he plans to send it. 

Pinterest Blog ~ More pics than you can shake a stick at


https://www.pinterest.de/spiritschweppes/spiritschweppes-worldwide/ 




Schweppes Book ~ Euro eBay ~ Not sure of the price, but going to look for another one on the U.S. eBay and/or elsewhere


https://www.ebay.de/itm/Schweppes-T...sh=item4d98f1f4f7:g:~dkAAOSw7cldPCdY#shpCntId


----------



## SODABOB

Well, that didn't take long. I just found and BOUGHT a copy of the book on eBay for $7.57 with free shipping. I will let you know what all it contains after it arrives in about a week.


----------



## Canadacan

Wow well that's cool!..notice anything on this?..lol 
All those pictures, a major collector of the brand and no live examples of a bottle and label intact! Hey did you happen to show him the Cross's label?



https://www.pinterest.de/pin/423338433724900883/


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

I haven't discussed Cross's with Hans yet but will later today. Although I did ask if he had any information about Schweppes being sold in Canada. In response to that and other questions, he keeps referring to the book I bought as if it has all, or at least some of the answers. I should point out there is a slight communication challenge between us. Because of the way he words certain things, I get the impression that his grasp of the English language is limited. And it could be the same with him regarding the way I word certain things. So I will just take it one step at a time and hope for the best. However, one thing is fairly certain - he has a definite passion for all things Schweppes and seems thrilled to share it with me. Such as the attached pics he sent yesterday ...

Metal sign - which he said was from the 1930s



Close up of label - Notice at the bottom where it says "All Corks [???] With Name Of Company"  Even though is says corks, the bottle is a Crown. Now I'm wondering if the CROWN CAPS used in Vancouver and elsewhere in Canada have the bottler's name on them?  Do you have or ever looked for any bottle caps like that?  Its possible that none of the paper labels have locations on them - but the caps might. 



Collection of paper labels - which he said were from the 1950s and 1960s. Although the one in the upper right corner looks older ???


----------



## SODABOB

These are the ONLY Canadian Schweppes bottle caps I have been able to find so far. All I know about them is what you see ...


----------



## SODABOB

Please refresh my memory and/or correct me if the following is not accurate ...

1.  The EARLIEST date for the Schweppes "Script Label" advertised in Vancouver, Canada is *1914*

2.  The EARLIEST date for the Cross & Co. "Script Label" advertised in Vancouver, Canada is *1929

*I want to be sure about this before I ask Hans about the *Cross's* label and send him some pictures of it. Another thing I'm not sure about are ...

3.  The LATEST date for the Schweppes "Script Label" from Vancouver?

4.  The LATEST date for the Cross's "Script Label" from Vancouver?


----------



## SODABOB

This is from an earlier post that I added the dates to and thought I would use it for the one I send to Hans. But I would still like to know the answers to the questions in my last post if anyone knows them.


----------



## CanadianBottles

I have one of those tonic water caps.  They were used on the Canadian ACL bottles, which is the earliest example I know of where Schweppes was bottled, rather than simply sold, in Canada.  It doesn't have any additional information printed on the edge.  Never seen the ginger ale cap and it looks older to me.  I'm very curious to know if Schweppes was ever bottled in Canada before the ACL era.  I've never seen one of those heel-embossed bottles used in the UK over here, and if it was imported in the bottle you'd think that more of them would show up.  Mind you, it's not like the ACL bottles are super common here either, so I'm not sure how popular Schweppes ever got over here.  Even today it's a distant second to Canada Dry.
Also regarding those labels, they're definitely from a wider age range than the 50s and 60s.  Note how one features a bar code, which means it's from no earlier than the mid-1970s (and probably later).  A couple also mention the king, which means they date to 1952 at the latest.  And of course as you mention, the one in the top right looks much earlier than the 50s.


----------



## CanadianBottles

Thought this was interesting too, a similar label was being used for cans in the 70s http://www.canmuseum.com/Detail.aspx?CanID=39347&Member=


----------



## SODABOB

Just to be clear about things (and please correct me if I'm wrong) ...

But other than for some ILLUSTRATIONS shown in a few Vancouver, Canada newspapers and possibly magazines, there are no known examples of the Schweppes "white script" labels from Vancouver or anywhere else in Canada.  In fact, I can't find where that label was ever used in the United States either.  It now appears the Schweppes "white script" label was ONLY used in England, and possibly other foreign countries.  

If my assumptions are accurate, that means ????????????????


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I sent Hans the picture of the Cross bottles I dated and asked him some more questions - and will let you know what he has to say when I hear back from him. However, I wouldn't hold my breath that he has the answers because I think he is getting a little confused. He doesn't seem to know all that much about what took place in Canada and the United States and keeps referring to the book I bought for the answers.


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record / Confusion ...

*Australia ...


1912

*


*1940

*


*Me*



*
*


----------



## CanadianBottles

Yes you're correct, I have no knowledge of any Canadian-produced Schweppes bottles of any type predating the ACL era.  It's very possible that Schweppes was only available in imported bottles from the UK in the first half of the 20th century.  I've found Schweppes stoneware shards in Ottawa, and they were definitely British imports.  That's all I've ever found from Schweppes in the wild, and I haven't found anything from after 1930 or so.
That first Australian ad is definitely interesting to see, that's the first cork top bottle I've seen bearing that label.  I thought Schweppes had switched to crown tops by 1912 as well.  I'm also curious about that bottle in the 1940 ad, it looks different than the British ones I've seen so far.  It's definitely possible that Schweppes was being bottled in Australia by 1940.


----------



## mctaggart67

The problem with historical trademark registration in Canada is that the practice of "passing off" was covered under Canada's criminal code from the 1890s onward. Before that, the English common law essentially outlawed the practice. Passing off occurs when one party either uses another's trademark as his trademark or creates a trademark that so closely resembles another party's trademark that it looks fundamentally the same in the layman's eyes. In either case, the offending party is passing off his wares as someone else's in order to derive financial benefit by trading on the good reputation of the party being copied. Anyhow, most Canadian pre-1930 bottlers did not register their trademarks because they didn't really have to, since all they really had to do in a case was show the court an example of the "passed off" trademarked example with the genuine article and prove that the genuine article came before the "passed off" one. No government trademark registration was required as proof.

As to the Schweppes-Cross trademark relationship, it's quite likely Schweppes was aware of Cross's actions but determined either the passing off wasn't close enough -- think the fountain -- to mount a successful court challenge or that mounting a challenge, assuming there were grounds for such, just simply wasn't worth the time, energy and resources. I'm thinking the former was likely the case, though I'm still open to historical evidence which shows that a law suit did happen. Of course, there is always the possibility that Schweppes and Cross came to some sort of arrangement.

All the same, it's been interesting following this thread.


----------



## SODABOB

mctaggart67

Thanks for stopping by and sharing.

You must be what my dad used to call a "Philadelphia Lawyer."  Which is intended as a complement.  I have never heard the term "passed off" but it totally fits the scheme of things. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened.  I just wish we could find a Schweppes bottle or white/script paper label from Vancouver like the one in question. We know they advertised and probably sold it early on, but the lack of an actual bottle or paper label from Vancouver makes you wonder.  I'm still thinking the next best thing is an early bottle CAP. But even those are eluding us. I'm also hoping the book I bought will have what we're looking for, and will report on that after it arrives in about a week.  I heard from Hans again this morning - but all he said was that he knew nothing about what took place in Canada or the United States. Which kind of surprised me because he's the one who recommended the book - and if the book has that information, why didn't say so specifically?  Anyway, if the book doesn't have the answers, I really don't know where else to look. I guess it will be up to our Canadian friends to keep digging and keep looking for ... ???


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> mctaggart67
> 
> Thanks for stopping by and sharing.
> 
> You must be what my dad used to call a "Philadelphia Lawyer."  Which is intended as a complement.  I have never heard the term "passed off" but it totally fits the scheme of things. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened.  I just wish we could find a Schweppes bottle or white/script paper label from Vancouver like the one in question. We know they advertised and probably sold it early on, but the lack of an actual bottle or paper label from Vancouver makes you wonder.  I'm still thinking the next best thing is an early bottle CAP. But even those are eluding us. I'm also hoping the book I bought will have what we're looking for, and will report on that after it arrives in about a week.  I heard from Hans again this morning - but all he said was that he knew nothing about what took place in Canada or the United States. Which kind of surprised me because he's the one who recommended the book - and if the book has that information, why didn't say so specifically?  Anyway, if the book doesn't have the answers, I really don't know where else to look. I guess it will be up to our Canadian friends to keep digging and keep looking for ... ???



Bob the research you've done is amazing, Always appreciate everyone's input too!...thanks so much fella's. And Thanks to CB for bringing this copycat label to the post!... I mean who would have ever thought that Schweppes was going to flood this feed!
I concur at this time with CB, I have not seen any Schweppes labels any later than the already known ACL's. And the only label I've ever seen in Canada  for the copycat label in paper is my Cross's on that green glass.


----------



## SODABOB

I finally received the 1983 Schweppes book that devotes about four pages to Schweppes expansion into the United States and Canada. However, most of the book deals with what took place in Europe. The U.S. / Canada part is somewhat vague but it does indicate that Schweppes was first introduced in both countries in the late 1800s. Then it jumps to the 1940s where it gets a little more interesting. Prior to the 1940s Grocers were reluctant to carry the brand because during that time period anyone who sold Schweppes was required to return the bottles to England. It doesn't say who had to pay the shipping fees for returning the bottles, but I get the impression it was the responsibility of whoever sold the brand. This might explain why some of the Canadian ads we have seen were those by the Hudson Bay Co., who was a distributor and not a grocer. Schweppes was well aware of the return bottle problem and between 1948 and 1950 initiated a "major push" to eliminate the problem and increase sales both in Canada and the United States. Their solution to the problem was to start granting franchises to bottlers in both countries, with the most notable franchise being granted to Pepsi Cola in 1953. After that things "really took off" and sales in Canada and the United States increased dramatically. 

As far as the white/script paper label is concerned, the book does not address it specifically, but by putting together some of the pieces of the puzzle from the book, the label definitely appears to have been used in the 1950s and 1960s for both the American and Canadian markets. The book does not say, nor can I explain why an identical label appears in ads as early as 1914. But whatever the explanation might be, those 1914 bottles and labels were definitely imported and not domestic. By the way, none of the references to Canada in the book specifically mentions Vancouver -- it just lumps Canada together without mentioning any specific locations.  

We may never know the whole story, but based on conjecture I gleaned from the book, I am prepared to speculate as follows ...

1.  The white/script paper labels were used in both Canada and the United States as early as the 1920s, but are extremely rare due to having an extremely limited market until the 1950s and 1960s when the franchises kicked in. 

2.  The bottles that originally had the white/script paper labels from the 1950s and 1960s are those that have SCHWEPPES embossed on the heel. Find one of those bottles with a 1950s or 1960s date code on it and I believe the odds are pretty good that it originally had one of the white/script paper labels.  

So far so good, but a couple of nagging questions still remain: If the bottles with Schweppes embossed on the heel were as abundant as it might seem, then ...

1. Why are there so few examples of them, especially from Canada?

2. Why can't we find a single example of a paper label from either country, no matter how old it is?


----------



## Canadacan

Bob thanks very much for that. It does seem so odd that none of these labels have shown up, and I'm thinking more of the north American market, but even in the 1950's and 60's in the Vancouver region I'm pretty sure Canada Dry, Cross's, Felix Ginger Ale and Thorpe's had the lions share of the market.
I never really pursued Schweppes and only have two club soda bottles from Canada, both ACL's 10oz and 7oz dated 1971. I have a few cans one from the late 60's and it is marked Schweppes (overseas) Ltd London England, and by the mid 70's they were marked Cadbury Schweppes.
Sure would be something to find one of those bottles with the embossed heels...something to watch out for now!


----------



## CanadianBottles

That info is great, thank you!  That explains why the earliest Canadian bottles anyone has been able to find have been the ACL ones.  I'm quite surprised that they bothered with returning bottles from overseas, but I guess it makes sense since the bottle would have been worth more than the contents.  That definitely explains why there aren't that many of them to show up in Canada since it would have been such a hassle.  My impression so far is that only fairly high-class establishments would have carried Schweppes, since it seemed to be a bit of a status symbol in those days.  The dump I mentioned earlier which had a bunch of early Schweppes bottles was a luxury hotel dump.  I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for those embossed bottles from now on, and I'd love to be able to find a paper label but certainly won't be holding my breath for one to show up here.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks for the kudos 

However ...

I have been researching the early franchise years between about 1950 and 1960, and it now appears that the labels used in Canada and the United States during that time period were NOT the white/script labels we have been discussing. EVERY ad I can find with a picture of a bottle during that time period are like those attached here. The only exception is the one from London, England that depicts the label in question. I also discovered that the same labels as those depicted in 1955 were still be being used in Canada and the United States as late as 1985. So, as near as I can determine at this juncture, the white/script label was ONLY used on bottles sold in Europe, and possibly on bottles that were IMPORTED to Canada and the United States PRIOR to the franchise years. The white/script label does not appear to have been used by domestic bottlers in either Canada or the United States after the franchises kicked in starting around 1953. Hence, I now believe if we want to find a white/script label we will have to look for one from a European source such as UK eBay. 


*Vancouver, Canada 1955* 

 

*
New York, New York 1955* 




*London, England 1954

*


Footnote:  MORE research required - especially involving FRANCHISES


----------



## Canadacan

Schweppes- Bottled on the island Malta by Simonds-Farsons-Crisk Malta 1960's. Although not Canadian still seems tough to impossible to find any example!
Note this is the 'Dry' version with embossed heel.


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

Cool bottle!

I searched UK eBay and there are hundreds of listings under SCHWEPPES but I did not look at all of them.  So I changed my search words to SCHWEPPES GINGER ALE and it narrowed down to about 100 listings.  The only thing I found that even came close to the label in question is this bottle described as being from the 1970s.  It is priced at 15.00 pounds which is about $20.00 in U.S. currency.  I don't intend to buy it, and it appears they don't ship to the U.S. and if they do it would probably cost a fortune. But I do believe that UK eBay is probably the best place to look for the label and/or bottle in question.  There might be some other ginger ale stuff to be found by searching the hundreds of listings under SCHWEPPES but I don't plan to look through all of them, at least not today.  It could take hours to look at all of them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bottle-o...214984?hash=item420300a348:g:sXgAAOSwP9FdBiLh


----------



## SODABOB

I took another look on the UK eBay and found this bottle. Its not in the greatest shape and I probably won't bid on it, but I did contact the seller to see if they shipped to the U.S. and how much it would cost if they did. There are no bids on it yet that starts at about $7.50. They describe it as being from the 1950s or 1960s. I'm attaching a pic of the base but can't make out everything on it. It appears to be European made but I'm not sure. Nor do I know how to date it. Maybe one of y'all can.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...798663?hash=item1f05977707:g:Qo8AAOSw-qldwfVN


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I just found this in their description ...

"[FONT=&quot]On the bottom is written J L & Co and serial number 234LI6"

Now the research REALLY begins!


[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

I just found this on David Whitten's bottle marks site. If its accurate, then the Schweppes bottle appears to be older than the 1950s or 1960s ???


----------



## SODABOB

And this from Bill Lockhart and the Bottle Research Group (BRG) which I am a member of now.  Its a pdf - just scroll to where you will find some detailed information about J L & Co ...

https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/JOther.pdf

But I'm still confused about the date of the UK eBay Schweppes bottle.  ???


----------



## SODABOB

Take another look at the UK eBay bottle and you will notice it also has the LDC mark -- which the seller failed to mention. The LDC mark is discussed in the pdf I posted -- but I'm still confused -- how old is that danged Schweppes bottle? 

This link and pics are from a forum discussion about a similar bottle / mark. Notice the L [small D] C

https://www.antique-bottles.net/showthread.php?519501-Odd-shaped-soda-bottle


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

If necessary I can contact Bill Lockhart about this -- but before doing that I'd like to see if WE can figure it out on our own.  I/WE might have found a bottle that doesn't fit in with the scheme of things as they currently stand. I also want to ask to have the opportunity to bid on the UK bottle before anyone else on this form does. Providing they ship to the U.S. and it doesn't cost a fortune. There are currently no bids on the bottle that ends this coming Tuesday. I hope to hear from the seller before then about the shipping -- and will let y'all know just as soon as I know. 

Thanks

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S.  

The only date I can glean from everything presented so far is that the UK Schweppes bottle is *P**re 1937*.  What say you?


----------



## SODABOB

I didn't go back and see if I already posted these, but if I did they now take on a new relevance in connection with the UK eBay bottle

*London, England ~ 1937*


----------



## SODABOB

For the time being I'm going to leave-off with this. If newspaper ads are reflective of the types of bottles they used when the ads were published, then the same or similar bottle was being used in England at least as early as 1933, and possibly earlier. Which is early enough for me to take an entirely new interest in the UK eBay bottle. If everything falls in place and the seller ships to the U.S. without charging a fortune for shipping, I'm going to bid on it and see what happens. If I win it I will figure out how to date it later. And maybe even find a paper label for it one of these days.

*London, England ~ 1933* 

You can even see SCHWEPPES on the heel


----------



## SODABOB

I just heard from the UK eBay seller and he said he can ship the bottle to California where I live for about $15 U.S. -- Still no bids yet so I'm going to place one later and see what happens.


----------



## Canadacan

SODABOB said:


> I just heard from the UK eBay seller and he said he can ship the bottle to California where I live for about $15 U.S. -- Still no bids yet so I'm going to place one later and see what happens.


Ok best of Luck!...it's quite possible it's pre 1937.


----------



## SODABOB

Cc

Thanks. The bottle ends tomorrow and I will let you know how it goes. The seller's name is Wendi and we have exchanged a few emails.  She is going to look around and see if she can find one of the white/script labels. I won't include everything I have found here, but I have been researching J L & Co. / J Lumb and Company to see if I can make sense of the numbers on bases of their bottles. The only thing I came up with is that certain bottles have certain numbers, which I would call "style" numbers.  They are definitely not dates despite that some of them look like dates. I was kind of hoping that the 34 on the 234L16 bottle I'm bidding on might be for 1934. But that doesn't seem likely now that I have researched the mark a little more. The thing that strikes me the oddest is that I have only been able to find a couple of examples like the bottle I intend to bid on. Because its origin is England it was probably never exported, unless it was but then returned to England. But regardless of that, you'd think there would be jillions of them. That's the main reason I'm interested in the bottle. Its apparent rarity. 

For a future reference I am attaching the best pictures I have been able to find of the J L & Co. LDC mark. And will take some pics of the Schweppes bottle if I win it. 

Later

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I meant to include this in my last post but forgot. Its pretty much self explanatory and addresses the return bottles aspect. Its dated 1895 and indicates that Schweppes was involved in the practice early on. Which isn't all that surprising because this was a common practice between American and/or Canadian glass makers and bottlers as well. But it also indicates that bottlers we reimbursed for returning the bottles and apparently didn't have to absorb that cost. This ties in with what the Schweppes book talked about. However, if the bottlers were reimbursed, then I have to wonder why it was a problem in the first place. Of course it might have been an entirely different can of worms when it came to overseas shipping. So many questions and so few answers. By the way, I checked and the distance between Coleford and Bristol, England, where the receipt was mailed form, is about thirty miles. 


View attachment 191322


----------



## SODABOB

I'm either losing my marbles or else there was a switcheroo with the UK bottle. I don't recall a "make offer" when I first found it. But one was there when I looked at it again yesterday. So I made an offer and they accepted it.  The total with shipping was $21 U.S. The only kicker is that it might take several weeks to get here. I think its literally being shipped on a ship. But that's okay because its reminiscent of how it was done back in the day. I will report back when it arrives. I want to thank Canadacan for allowing me to hijack his thread (again) and hope my contributions have been helpful. This phase of the discussion involved the possible infringement of the label in question, and it appears to me that Cross's did in deed "copycat" the label. However, because the only part of the Schweppes label that was protected by a trademarks was the fountain, no infringement appears to have occurred. It also appears that once Schweppes started setting up franchises in Canada and the United States they introduced an entirely different label for those markets. Speaking of which, the next thing I'm going to look into is to see if the new labels and the franchises correlate at about the same time. The label I'm speaking of is like the one attached here. Pre franchise or post franchise?  

Thanks again,

Bob


----------



## Canadacan

Bob excellent news on aquiring the bottle! It's been an interesting ride here for sure and your contributions are most welcomed! I know of a couple fellas the do bottle digging in our region, I'll have to run it past them to see if they've ever dug up any of those Schweppes bottles! I concur with your statement about this 'Copycat' label.


----------



## SODABOB

Thanks Cc

You are right-on-the-money about dug bottles. If any have or can be found like the one in question, the odds are it originated in your area as opposed to showing up in an antique shop or similar outlet that you never know where it came from. You already know this, but if any dug bottles do come to your attention, be sure and check the bases to see if they were made by a domestic glass maker or by a foreign glass maker such as J L & Co. Determining the glass maker should help to date them as well. 

These attachments are the earliest references about franchises I have been able to find for both the United States and Vancouver, Canada. The Vancouver article is dated 1959, with a franchise reference of 1954. 

*United States ~ Pepsi Cola ~ 1953*


 

*
Vancouver, Canada ~ Pepsi Cola ~ 1954

*


----------



## Canadacan

Bob thanks for posting the newspaper clips, and supersized for these now older eyes!...lol!
Yes I'll keep in mind the dating and manufacturer on the base of any future bottles I may run across


----------



## SODABOB

Update ...

My Schweppes bottle left the San Francisco USPS distribution center this morning at 5:AM and should arrive here sometime next week. 

Have a "5-R" GRRRRREAT weekend

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

I received the Schweppes bottle the other day and have been researching it ever since. I have also been exchanging emails with the seller who is doing some research as well. The seller's name is Wendi and she lives in Leven, Scotland where the bottle was shipped from. She said her boyfriend found (dug) the bottle in an old dump on the outskirts of Leven. Other than that, she doesn't know its history or where it might have been bottled.  We are trying to determine if there was bottler located in Leven at some point, but we haven't found anything specific yet.  It might have originated in Glasgow, Scotland which is about 65 miles east of Leven. Glasgow is a much larger city than Leven and likely had several bottlers at one time.  I still need to look into that a little closer.  I'm still leaning toward it as being made prior to 1937, but nothing definite on that.  Although the bottle was definitely made by the John Lumb Glass Company ( J L & Co LDC ). There is a small star embossed on both sides of the neck, but I do not know anything about them yet.  I'm hoping the stars will lead to some additional clues about the bottle.  Hopefully the attached pictures and images with help tell some of the story that is still unfolding. 

 







*Leven, Scotland 1947*


----------



## slugplate

Interesting that your first three sodas has, what appears to be, an early MASON logo. Was Cross and Co. anyway connected to them? IDK, but I'd check there too.


----------



## Canadacan

Hey Bob very nice!...interesting that your bottle is from Scottland....remember Gavin Dalziel Cross was born in Scotland in 1862 and immigrated to Canada in 1892.
Just a coincidence though  
​


----------



## Canadacan

Been a long time since I've had anything to ad to the variation line up on the embossed straight sided crown tops!
I was happy to pick up this Cross & Co variation that I was unaware of!  It's embossed on the back 'A. ALEXANDER & Co Ltd LONDON' It has a mint tone with the seam going right through the top, unlike my aqua tinted version with the black highlighted lettering that has an applied lip.
 It had quite a bit of rust on it but cleaned up real nice with no haze, I also love the fact it has very strong embossing 

So


----------



## CanadianBottles

Oh that's interesting!  I think it's the first time I've ever seen a Canadian crown top embossed with the name of a British manufacturer on the heel.  That's something I usually associate with internal thread stopper bottles.  I wouldn't have expected BC companies to be buying ABM crown bottles from the UK, I would have thought by that time it would make much more financial sense to buy from a domestic manufacturer.


----------



## Canadacan

@CanadianBottles  Yes that did seem odd to have a crown top with a UK firm, the other one is not marked by a maker but does have a # 109 on the base. I did check my internal thread to see if it happened to be the same firm but it's marked 'E.B & Co. Ltd.'
There is also a crown top version with ' MADE IN USA '.


----------



## Canadacan

@CanadianBottles  So I was digging around through my digital archive and low and behold came across an article about Cross & Co. that makes reference to buying 'B.C.' when possible, they go on to mention they have not yet secured a supplier for Bottles or Crowns in Canada!
And this was in late 1929.
So this does not explain why the bottles were either UK or USA made, and Thorpe's bottles were pretty much the same. I'm not sure why Red Cliff Dominion glass plant could not supply at the time?...or if this firm had just not secured a contract?
Maybe Dominion glass was at full capacity and could not fulfill any further orders.
Also I do have a Cross that's dated 1929 from Illinois Pacific Glass Corp, the next bottle in line is a Dominion with just the diamond D , so obviously shortly after they got Dominion making their bottles.

Cross and Co-The Vancouver Sun, 30 Nov 1929, Sat, Page 41


----------



## tsims

Canadacan said:


> You bet they do!...that one is an 11oz ACL but they also came in 30oz...as for 10oz or 28oz I can't say for sure it they did. Yes there are some similarities between those bottles, the Cross's on the end are both US made (1926-32)...the first two Whistles I can't identify a makers mark, the middle bottle is from Dominion glass. On a side note I came across the two stippled Whistles at an antique store last summer and could not leave them behind as I have never in all my years seen them before! No mention of Cross on the Whistle bottles...I believe they were used up to about 1926...well that was the patent date embossed on the new curvy whistle, no doubt they were used a bit longer.
> Yes I was pleased to get the crate!...you can see the in the old photos the similar crate was used. I like the slogan as well!...I believe it was a much older one, I ran across it some place but can't locate it right now.
> 
> View attachment 176719*[SUB][SUP]
> [/SUP][/SUB]*


I've got the clear cross & Co 6 1/2 oz and the Clear Whistle 8 1/2 oz


----------



## tsims

Canadacan said:


> @CanadianBottles  Yes that did seem odd to have a crown top with a UK firm, the other one is not marked by a maker but does have a # 109 on the base. I did check my internal thread to see if it happened to be the same firm but it's marked 'E.B & Co. Ltd.'
> There is also a crown top version with ' MADE IN USA '.View attachment 203507


Beautiful bottles


----------



## Historical-Info-Service

Canadacan said:


> Bob yes I was aware of that bottle, you did post it on this thread way back on page 6,7,8 maybe???..lol. I stated then the bottle style seemed to be used from about 1945-55...but I now concur what CB said for the earlier mid 30's as I now have one from a different bottler dated 1938.
> Yes CB they are difficult to obtain....I'm at ground zero here and have only had the opportunity to ad that bottle to my collection once in the last 5 years, and well....I'm still hunting






I have that one in my collection - the Dominion date code is C <D> 2, so either 1942 or 1952, as the letter coding was used until mid-1953.  But if Canadacan has seen them dated 1938, I'd lean towards 1942, which would make it a fairly early ACL Cross & Co bottle


----------



## Historical-Info-Service

Just trying to bring this thread back on topic a bit..here's a cool Cross & Co item - I have a case of these.  Pretty sure they were used on the standard blue label 10 oz Cross's bottle.  made by Crown Cork and Seal (CCS).


----------



## Canadacan

So I just acquired a bottle in the Cross series that I have spoke about before and even pictured it many pages back!
It's the USA made version from Illinois glass co dated 1936 and marked on the back "Bottle Made in USA"...fascinating too because I have a 1929 Illinois Pacific Glass version with the IPG in a triangle located on the heel, it's from before the take over.
And on another interesting not this particular version does not have 'Ltd.' embossed on the front, and It's from plant #21 San Francisco, Ca. 1932-37. 
Now I can't recall what the heel mark is I-31.... is it possibly an older date code?...1931?








On the Left is the IPG version from 1929 with Ltd., it also has the date code on the lip of the bottle. And the right is the Illinois Glass Co. for 1936 with out Ltd.




IPG logo with 1929 date code.


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## Crushy

Hi.  New to the group a week or so ago.   Lots of great comments and threads on here  - not to mention so fabulous collections.   Saw this thread pop up and want to check in on a label I've had for a few years but never knew where it came from.   Looking over the back pages here, I'm thinking its a 1929 era Cross from Vancouver.    Measures 4" by 3" 

Wondering what others think.


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## tsims

Moosecop said:


> Just trying to bring this thread back on topic a bit..here's a cool Cross & Co item - I have a case of these.  Pretty sure they were used on the standard blue label 10 oz Cross's bottle.  made by Crown Cork and Seal (CCS).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 218105View attachment 218106View attachment 218107


Would you like to sell one? I have the blue cross bottle.


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## Canadacan

Crushy said:


> Hi.  New to the group a week or so ago.   Lots of great comments and threads on here  - not to mention so fabulous collections.   Saw this thread pop up and want to check in on a label I've had for a few years but never knew where it came from.   Looking over the back pages here, I'm thinking its a 1929 era Cross from Vancouver.    Measures 4" by 3" Wondering what others think.



I would think your label is 1920's-30's. The version I have is done in gold lettering and gold border, in very poor condition on a green 12oz bottle, I figured it to be from the 1950's


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## Crushy

Canadacan said:


> I would think your label is 1920's-30's. The version I have is done in gold lettering and gold border, in very poor condition on a green 12oz bottle, I figured it to be from the 1950's


Thanks for the info.   That would be consistent with what I know about this particular label.   I got it about 35 years ago in a stack of labels I acquired from a guy who worked in the bottle soaking room at the Calgary Brewing and Malting Company in 1946.  Seems he took home a good number of the labels he removed.  Most were from the early 40s but there was a healthy dose of labels from the 30s and 20's and a couple from earlier than that.


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## CanadianBottles

Crushy said:


> Thanks for the info.   That would be consistent with what I know about this particular label.   I got it about 35 years ago in a stack of labels I acquired from a guy who worked in the bottle soaking room at the Calgary Brewing and Malting Company in 1946.  Seems he took home a good number of the labels he removed.  Most were from the early 40s but there was a healthy dose of labels from the 30s and 20's and a couple from earlier than that.


That sounds like a really cool collection!  Were there any others from BC in there?


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## Crushy

CanadianBottles said:


> That sounds like a really cool collection!  Were there any others from BC in there?


Thanks for the note.  It was a pretty cool find.  About 80 or so labels - about 90% beer and some rare stuff.  There was some BC stuff - Victoria Phoenix, Revelstoke, Vancouver Breweries  that I remember.    I believe the Cross one was one of the only 2 pop labels in the batch.   I ended up being more of a Crush and Alberta pop guy, so I leveraged the beer stuff into some nice stuff.


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## Canadacan

Just picked up another 8oz variation, this one has a green tint and no 8oz marking on the back...in fact it has no other markings that I can find at all. It does fit into that early 1910's erra so I'm really liking that considering this was in a grab box of a few bottles for real cheap.










And here is the current line up from the 1910's to 1945 with the ACL on the back


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## Donas12

Congrats on a new variation find! What a great set you have.


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## Canadacan

Donas12 said:


> Congrats on a new variation find! What a great set you have.


Thanks so much!  It's interesting with this brand for me,...the fact that I've never tried too hard to seek out variations but yet they have been finding me.


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## tsims

CanadianBottles said:


> I never knew there was a relation between Cross & Co. and Vancouver Soda Water Works, that's interesting.  If they're the same Black Bear Brand, that is, and I'm not sure of that.  Vancouver Soda Water Works is a really confusing company that goes back earlier than 1894, back to when they were owned by Murchinson and Derraugh (might have spelled those wrong, the bottles only say M&D) in the early 1880's.  I never made the association between the two Black Bear Brands (mostly because I don't own any Meikle Brothers bottles, they're crazy expensive).


I have (3) Meikle bottles. What kind of prices were you seeing when you posted this? I thought mine were pretty reasonably priced. Depending where you are located could possibly trade you for a bottle or sell you one. Mine have the hutchinson top with the marble.


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## CanadianBottles

tsims said:


> I have (3) Meikle bottles. What kind of prices were you seeing when you posted this? I thought mine were pretty reasonably priced. Depending where you are located could possibly trade you for a bottle or sell you one. Mine have the hutchinson top with the marble.


To be honest I'm not sure in hindsight, I've seen some reasonably priced ones show up in the interim since then.  Might be that since I was on the Island I'd only ever seen a few overpriced ones on Ebay showing up for sale.  
I'm curious, what do you mean Hutchinson top with the marble?  I know there are Meikle Hutches but not sure what marbles would be doing in them.  You don't mean a Meikle Codd bottle, right?


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## Canadacan

I don't recall a Meikle codd either? So I have seen just recently a Meikle for 20 bucks. I paid 35 for the one I have with a chip in the lip 
My understanding is it is a tougher version, but I don't know that for sure.


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## tsims

Sorry, i wasn't thinkly there obviously when i wrote that, i meant to save the hutchinson stopper inside the bottle. Mine is not chipped but stopper is in two pieces here is photo. Where on the island are you?


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## Historical-Info-Service

tsims said:


> Would you like to sell one? I have the blue cross bottle.


I don't seem to get notifications of posts here.  Do you?  Just seeing this now Terri.  I can send you a couple caps.  I will message you.  Gerry


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## Historical-Info-Service

Well, I have seriously upgraded my "Black Bear Brand" collection.  Need one upgraded, but I am happy with what I have now.  Added one other generic, but period correct, Cross & Co bottle for  kicks.  I have other Cross & Co bottles but they aren't part of the Black Bear line-up.


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