# Monroe La. Straight side coke !



## goodman1966

Just picked this up Friday. Root glass co. 1913. Heel embossed  Property of Ouachita Coca Cola on one side. Bottling Co. Monroe,La_    Yes a dash. Never seen that before.


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## goodman1966

Heel


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## sandchip

Very nice!


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## bottlerocket

Very nice. Is this a from a dig?


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## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 Here's a newspaper advertisement to go-with your bottle. From ... The Monroe News-Star ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ April 12, *1913* (Apparently this was during the years when Coca Cola was attempting to protect it's name)


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## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966

Here's an article I think you will find interesting. It mentions that Joseph Biedenharn was the president of the Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company. According to Wikipedia, Biedenharn moved to Monroe in *1913*.

Wikipedia link and quote ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_A._Biedenharn

The move to Monroe
"In 1913, Joseph Biedenharn moved to Monroe in Ouachita Parish in northeastern Louisiana, where he purchased a small bottling plant to produce Coca-Cola."

Article from ...

The Monroe News-Star ~ Louisiana ~ December 7, *1921*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If Wikipedia and other accounts are accurate about Biedenharn moving to Monroe in 1913, that could mean that your bottle was possibly a first issue by him, which I'd say makes it even more special.


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## goodman1966

Thanks for the great info Bob !  bottlerocket, This bottle cost me 15 bucks at an antique dealer. It will be a gift to BassAssassin if and when he comes to Shreveport to help me probe an old house place on an original 1839 street here in Shreveport. "Think that will get his attention" ? lol


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## Bass Assassin

Yes, yes, and yes. You got my attention Mitch! Nice bottle! Yes, this is a 1913 bottle, yes it was the first bottle he used when he moved to Monroe and and purchased  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. See the bottle to the right in my attached photo. I'll call you tomorrow Mitch. I'm laying a ceramic tile floor at the moment.


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## SODAPOPBOB

As most of us know, the Coca Cola contour/hobbleskirt bottle was patented on November 16, 1915 but not actually distributed for the first time until the spring of 1917. I was curious when Monoroe might have first used it and the earliest ad I can find is from 1919, but it's highly possible it was used earlier than that. Bill Porter's book list the 1915 Monore hobbleskirt as rare. Anyway, when I found this ad I noticed something odd with the image of the bottle. Notice that instead of 1915 the illustration shows 1916 for the patent year. This is an obvious error done by someone, but I'm not sure if the newspapers did their own artwork or if they relied on the bottler via the parent company for it. Whatever the explanation might be, I thought it was interesting. 1.  Ad ~ The Monroe News-Star ~ Louisiana ~ July 25, 19192.  Original patent showing the correct *November 16, 1915 *date3.  Close up of bottle illustration showing the incorrect *November 16, 1916 *date Side Note:  This identical ad was published in the Monroe News-Star at least ten times during 1919. You'd think somewhere along the line that someone would have caught the wrong date, and maybe they did but just didn't think it important enough to correct. I intend to look into this and see if later ads from Monroe (1920 through 1923) show the same illustration or a different, corrected one.


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## ACLbottles

I've heard of a few bottles with a 1916 date...


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## Bass Assassin

Thanks for the home town information Bob. (Although i live in West Monroe). Mr Biedenharn's home is now a museum and there's a coca cola museum 2 doors south of his home. The old Ouachita Coca Cola (and candy) company building that was established by Biedenharn still stands on Walnut Street in downtown Monroe. There is still a coca cola advertisement on the side of the building. The loading docks face the street.


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## SODAPOPBOB

ACLbottles said:
			
		

> I've heard of a few bottles with a 1916 date...



I've never seen one myself but believe its possible.                                                         *        ~ * ~* Even thought there are tons of Coca Cola ads from the Monroe newspapers, not all of them show close-ups of the bottles. However, I did find this one from 1921 which shows what appears to be the identical artwork as the 1919 ad and it too shows the wrong date on the bottle illustration. So they either didn't notice this during a three year span or else did notice it but just didn't care. I checked to see if any of their later ads had a picture of the 1923 patent bottle and how it was illustrated, but of the numerous 1923 through 1938 (issue years for the 1923 bottle) ads there were no close-up images showing the details of the 1923 bottle. 1.  The Monroe News-Star ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ *September 9, 1921*2.  Cropped Close-up ... 1921 Ad3.  Cropped Close-up ... 1919 Ad for comparison Note:  For those who have not already discovered it, after you click on one of the images and open it, to switch to the next image all you have to do is gently roll your mouse-wheel and the image will automatically change from one image to the other and back again. Try it! []


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## Robby Raccoon

Neat stuff!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Thanks for the home town information Bob. (Although i live in West Monroe). Mr Biedenharn's home is now a museum and there's a coca cola museum 2 doors south of his home. The old Ouachita Coca Cola (and candy) company building that was established by Biedenharn still stands on Walnut Street in downtown Monroe. There is still a coca cola advertisement on the side of the building. The loading docks face the street.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of 1915 Patent Coca Cola bottles with a 1916 date on them ... I hope no old time mold makers see this, and if they do please know its just a joke - but despite what some of us might have in mind as to what it was like in a bottle making factory back in the early 1900s, if you look at some of the pictures found on the Internet, you'll discover that life in a bottle factory in the early days was no picnic, nor were the employees always the sharpest tools in the shed. Take this picture for example, its of the mold shop guy who made the molds for the Coca Cola bottles with the 1916 date on them ... []


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## SODAPOPBOB

I haven't had time to read this entire article, but it involves the Ouachita Coca Cola bottling plant having become a historical landmark in Monroe, Louiaiana. When I do eventually read it, I hope to discover the date of the attached picture, which appears to be from either the 1920s or 1930s.   

Website Link ...

http://www.nps.gov/nr/feature/places/13000275.htm

PDF Article from Website. With a lot of interesting information and pictures including the one below ...

http://www.nps.gov/nr/feature/places/pdfs/13000275.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I didn't know it snows in Louisiana? Hmmm, you learn something new every day! [8|]


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## Bass Assassin

Seems it snowed more often in the old days. Really appreciate all the information you have shared with us Bob. Great work sir.


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## goodman1966

Hey guy! The research you guys do is AWSOME !  Just checked my Jackson Ms. coke, it's 1915. Thanks for all the great replies. Man I love this place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ACLbottles

Bob, there was one that sold on ebay awhile ago for quite a bit of $$$. The seller said that there were only about 5 or 6 of them known, but I don't know if that's true or not.


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## sw arkansas

acl bottles-  good evening I am in Arkansas.  go to fults bottles on this web  Robert fults  he has a bottle collection on the web. ever find any Arkansas bottles


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## sw arkansas

acl -   if you want to email me . russellbrianarmer@yahoo.com


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## sw arkansas

goodman 1966  the research is two thirds of collecting . wonder if you have seen the Arkansas bottle book?


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## SODAPOPBOB

If you haven't done so already, you gotta read the article I posted a link to about the historical aspect of the Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling plant in Monroe. It is possibly the most comprehensive account of the business ever compiled. I'm not sure where the authors got their information, but they really did their homework. The attachments below are just a sampling of the 39 page record.

On Page 22 it has ...

Significant Dates:

1920-21  First Construction of Building
1924        Final Construction of North Additions
1926        Final Construction of West Additions
1937        Final Major Interior Alterations
1965        Bottling Company Vacates Building

Regarding the picture I posted showing the plant in snow, on Page 23 we find the following description ...

"Building of 1926 taken in late 1930s (in Snow)"  

*~ * ~*

Did you know that Joseph Biedenharn was known by his friends and colleagues as "Mr. Joe"

I hope the attachments are readable, which I won't know until after I post them. They are as follows ...

( If unreadable, save them to your picture files and zoom )

1.  Page 12 ~ Contains information about Mr. Joe moving to Monroe 
2.  Page 25 ~ Sketch map showing various phases of construction with dates


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If you're wondering how I was able to come up with the images I posted - I don't know of any way to save images from PDF files other than to print the pages first and then scan and save them to my picture files, followed by a little cropping, enhancing, etc. The tricky part is when it comes to posting them, which I can only do if they are sized to 1200 or smaller.


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## ACLbottles

Brian, I've been to his website a few times, he has an amazing collection. If I find any Arkansas bottles I'll keep you in mind... Thanks.


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## goodman1966

In the articles you posted in says Biedenharn bought Star Bottling works in Shreveport. I have two of those bottles as well, one marked Star and the other Coca Cola. So I'm assuming one is before the purchase and one after . [attachment=image.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 said:
			
		

> In the articles you posted in says Biedenharn bought Star Bottling works in Shreveport. I have two of those bottles as well, one marked Star and the other Coca Cola. So I'm assuming one is before the purchase and one after .



Cool bottles!  Is that case-ware I see around them or something else?


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## SODAPOPBOB

ACLbottles said:
			
		

> Bob, there was one that sold on ebay awhile ago for quite a bit of $$$. The seller said that there were only about 5 or 6 of them known, but I don't know if that's true or not.



I'm now a believer - and it's truly a thing to behold! The source did not say who made it, where it was bottled, the actual date it was issued, nor how much it sold for, but the ice blue color of this particular example is a thing of beauty. Check it out! 1.  Full Image2.  Close up showing the wrong date of November 16, *1916 - *which should be *1915*


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## goodman1966

That is beautiful !!!!!!!
Bob, that is caseware, and they were dug here in Shreveport. So they have the sickness too.


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## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 Thanks for the info - I thought it might be case-wear. I looked at some pictures of the same type of bottles and noticed they all have an embossed ring around them where the case-wear developed. Here's a little gift for you (and everyone else). Its the original Census document for Joseph A. Biedenharn when he resided in Monroe, Louisiana, Ouachita County, in *1920* 1.  Full Document2.  Cropped portion for Joseph A. Biedenharn and all family members - It list his occupation as     "Manager ~ Coca Cola" (For best viewing results, save it to your photo files and use your zoom feature)


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## SODAPOPBOB

I just remembered I have a Big Chief bottle from (marked on the back) ... *Quachita Coca-Cola Bottling Company Inc. Monroe & Tallulah, Louisiana* And that's not a typo on my part, it has a *Q *instead of an *O *for *Ouachita*. I never noticed the error until now and recommend that others check their Louisiana Big Chief's and see how they spelled it. Mine is a 1960, mint condition, and made by ...  The Latchford Glass Company, Los Angeles, California (mark used c.1957-c.1989) Pic of front ( I don't have a picture of the back showing the misspelling but will post one later)


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 
There are currently five Monroe-Tallulah, Louisiana Big Chief bottles on eBay. The first three listed below are spelled with a *Q*.  The last two are spelled with an *O*.

I haven't studied the dates yet, but I believe the misspelled one's were produced later and the correctly spelled one's were earlier. 

*Q*uachita

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BIG-Chief-Quachita-Louisiana-Coca-Cola-Bottling-Company-Monroe-acl-Soda-bottle-/111446326371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f2b7fc63

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOUISIANA-BIG-CHIEF-COCA-COLA-SODA-BOTTLE-Quachita-MONROE-TALLULAH-LA-/281426825150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4186588fbe


*O*uachita

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-BIG-CHIEF-BEVERAGES-SODA-BOTTLE-OUACHITA-COCA-COLA-BOTTLING-LOUISIANA-/380977672057?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b409ef79

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Big-Chief-Cream-Soda-Bottle-Ouchita-Coca-Cola-Bottling-Monroe-Tallulah-Louisiana-/171436253057?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ea659f81

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-soda-pop-bottle-BIG-CHIEF-1959-indian-Coca-Cola-Monroe-Tallulah-LA-Mint-/171415676294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27e92ba586


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## Bass Assassin

Nice work Bob! A lot of history around here concerning Joseph Biedenharn and Coca Cola. I used to be be pretty good friends with a gentleman that worked for Mr Joe. He said ole Joe was  a stickler for doing things the right way (which was his way of course) . No matter where Mr. Joe was or what he was doing he always wore a tie. It is said, when his daughter graduated from high school he filled the water fountain in his back yard with champaign. The fountain is still there. ... Here's my ice blue hobbleskirt from just down the road about 25 miles in Ruston, La.. That's some research you should do. They were bottling coke in 1907 as far as i can tell but the Biedenharn's were not the owners.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Based on what I've read, I don't believe the Biedenharn's moved from Mississippi to Louisiana until 1912. Are you saying the Ruston, La. plant could'a-should'a been owned by them?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm currently searching for a picture of or information pertaining to a ... *Patent 1915 Coca Cola Hobbleskirt from Monroe, Louisiana* I can't find a picture of one anywhere and curious to see if it might be one of the bottles with the *1916 *date on it - which might explain the ads I posted earlier and here again. If their ads show a bottle with a 1916 date on it, maybe their actual bottles did as well. ??? (If anyone has a Patent 1915/1916 Monroe bottle, please share it with us) 1.  *1919*2.  *1921*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Did you see this I posted earlier regarding Coca Cola start-up dates?  I'm not sure how accurate it is, but so far it seems to be close enough for Government work ... ??? 
http://earlycoke.com/bottlers.html

*Louisiana* New Orleans  1902Shreveport  1904Monroe  1904 or earlierBaton Rouge  1905Trenton  1905Ruston  1905Jennings  1905


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## Bass Assassin

I'm saying whoever opened the Ruston plant  had about a 5-6 year jump on Biedenharn. Its just kind of strange that he moved to Monroe and established the market here but did not buy out the Ruston market/plant which was the next biggest town in the area. And that leads to the next puzzling question. I can't understand why someone would start up a coca cola franchise in Ruston when Monroe was there for the taking. The Ruston plant was operating in 1907 for a fact because i've researched and found where a coca cola newsletter showed how many gallons of syrup the plant purchased. I just find it strange that a plant opened in Ruston before one was opened in Monroe( which had a much larger population).


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## Bass Assassin

Sorry Bob we must have been typing at the same time. Ok, i see where it shows Monroe was apparently already in operation BEFORE Biedenharn moved here (and before the Ruston plant opened). This means all the historical records here are wrong! Biedenharn has been credited for opening  the coca cola plant in Monroe,LA. and apparenlty he did not!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Biedenharn "Opened-Started" the Monroe plant, but rather that he "bought an existing plant" that was "already in operation" since about 1904 or earlier.


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## Bass Assassin

Mark

Did you see this I posted earlier regarding Coca Cola start-up dates?  I'm not sure how accurate it is, but so far it seems to be close enough for Government work ... ???


http://earlycoke.com/bottlers.html

Louisiana

New Orleans  1902
Shreveport  1904
Monroe  1904 or earlier
Baton Rouge  1905
Trenton  1905
Ruston  1905
Jennings  1905



 And thanks for this information Bob, it answers many questions for me!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Question(s): Did the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle Coca Cola and were they a Coca Cola franchise?


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## Bass Assassin

Thats what i've always suspected but could never prove. In the museum and most newspaper clippings, Biedenharn is given credit for starting up the coca cola franchise in Monroe and i believe this is not correct!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I believe this will prove that the *Ouachita Valley Bottling Works *did in fact bottle Coca Cola. Based on your recent comments, I believe it to be a historical bottle and I just bought it on eBay and paid top dollar for it! I'm not sure of the date, but because it has Ouachita Valley Bottling Works on the base, I suspect it was made before Biedenharn bought the company in 1912. What do you think? Is it the real deal or just another Biedenharn bottle? Please tell me I did good. Otherwise I won't be able to sleep tonight.  [:-] Thanks Bob


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## goodman1966

Beautiful bottle Bob, and I hope you are right !!!!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 said:
			
		

> Beautiful bottle Bob, and I hope you are right !!!!!!



Thanks, Mitch. I hope it's a keeper, too. The eBay picture is terrible because it looks black but it's actually amber.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Ongoing Research / Ongoing Uncertainty

1.  According to the pdf article I posted (see cropped portion below), and numerous other accounts, there seems to be no doubt that the Biedenharn's moved to Monroe, Louisiana in *1912*.

2.  There also seems to be no doubt that the Biedenharn's purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works from Joseph Renwick in *1912*.

3.  Notice in the pdf article where it says ...

"*On March 1 of that year [1912] the brothers purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works from Mr. Joe Renwick*."

3.  However, also notice where it says ...

"*In 1913, Joe Biedenharn bought out his brothers, and the Monroe company became the Ouachita Coca-Cola Bottling Company*."

Inconclusive Conclusion ...

If I understand this correctly, it leads to believe during the first year (1912) the Biedenharn's continued to operate the business under the original name of Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, and didn't change the name to Ouachita Coca-Cola Bottling Company until 1913. Therefore, its possible the bottle I purchased was Biedenharn's first, which they used in 1912 before the name change in 1913.

Other than the Coca Cola bottle I bought marked with Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, I can find no additional references to support that the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ever bottled Coca Cola prior to when the Biedenharn's showed up in 1912. If my observations are correct, this is still good news for my bottle because it would establish it as the first bottle used by the Biedenharn's in Monroe, Louisiana and possibly date it to the single year of use in 1912.

However, my observations don't end here!

Attachments:

1.  Cropped portion of the pdf article where it indicates the 1913 name change. 

2.  Cropped portion of a 1912-1913 Monroe, Louisiana business directory listing Joseph Renwick as president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. Even though this suggest the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was still owned and operated by Joseph Renwick in 1912-1913, the directory was likely prepared in advance and the Biedenharn's had already purchased the bottling works by the time the directory was released, but by then it was too late to change the listing.  

In conclusion, I am currently of the opinion that the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle I bought on eBay yesterday was the Biedenharn's first Coca Cola bottle ever used in Monroe, Louisiana.

However, the mystery isn't solved yet. How do we explain the listing which indicates the first Coca Cola bottling plant in Monroe, Louisiana was established in "1904 or earlier"


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. For me, solving the mystery hinges on finding the correct answers to two major questions ... 1.  Exactly when was the first Coca Cola bottling pant established in Monroe? 2. Exactly when did the name change from Ouachita Valley Bottling Works to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company?


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## Bass Assassin

I am glad to see this bottle Bob, and its a beauty. I've always suspected it existed but could not find the evidence. I've spent a lot of time searching and reading for this missing link and you found it. I do not know if it was used before the Birdenharn's came to town or after. The fact does remain that it exists and for me its a conclusion of much frustration. If you ever decide to part with it, please contact me!!! After our discussions last night i decided to take a fishing trip on the Ouachita River this morning in part to check out the tiver bank behind the old Ouachita Coca Cola  building. The bank is loaded with embossed glass shards. See photos.  The first photo was taken from the river looking at the back of the building


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## Robby Raccoon

Anything intact? There is usually something somewhere. Why do they have all the bottles out there? Got too old to reuse?


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## Bass Assassin

Sorry, the photos aren't coming out in order . Here are more.


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## Bass Assassin

And more.


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## Robby Raccoon

Usually how I find them. Lol. I say bring in a small shovel and dig in a little. Try walking in the water too.


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## Bass Assassin

More, including a Springfield,IL bottle.


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## Robby Raccoon

I would be ecstatic to find that place. I'm thinking on going down to where milk was once bottled, but it's now a Church and the river likely washed it all away.


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## Bass Assassin

A couple more. I did find a newer pint size dr pepper acl.


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## Robby Raccoon

Even damaged I really like that one. You must go back and dig and wade!


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## Bass Assassin

Spirit Bear, they were dumping the broken bottles on the river bank. Back then, there was no one who would stop them. I was looking for a shard that had coca cola and ouachita valley bottling works. Thought i would show a few photos of what i did find. Digging is not allowed on the river bank here. The Levee Board will prosecute anyone found digging between the the levee and the river. Its a big no no around here


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## Robby Raccoon

What a shame. Well, thanks for showing us! I'd still then wade around if you find it safe.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, one last thought, and i don't think its relevant, but just in case, there was another bottler in Monroe, LA at the time Biedenharn came along. It was Fidelity Bottling Works, located on Renwick Street( remember Joe Renwick?)


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## sw arkansas

bass-  for what its worth i seen a aqua  ruston ss coke to through ebay a while back it went for like 350 dollars


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## goodman1966

Well it looks like I created a monster here.....lol  You guys do great research. I'm so glad I found this bottle. Can't wait to meet you in person and hand it to you Mark !


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found at least four bottlers in Monroe that were there prior to Biedenharn's arrival in 1912. They were ...

1.  City Bottling Works
2.  Fidelity Bottling Works
3.  Monroe Bottling Works
4.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works

There may have been others but these four were definitely in Monroe prior to 1912 and all four used Hutchinson bottles. Based on the research I did on these particular bottlers, I could not find where any of them had any connections whatsoever with Coca Cola. As for the Fidelity Bottling Works, it was owned and operated by a W.G. Mattei. I'm not sure when he started up in Monroe, but I did find references for him as early as 1904 and as late as 1918, but there was no mention of him having anything to do with Coca Cola.

I can't say for certain, but it appears the references about Coca Cola starting up in Monroe in 1904 might have originated from Cecil Munsey's 1972 book "The Illustrated Guide To the Collectibles Of Coca Cola." I have a copy of this book and starting on page 312 it list several hundred start up dates for Coca Cola bottlers, including the 1904 date for Monroe. Where Mr. Munsey got his information I can't say, other than he is considered by many as one of the most  knowledgeable Coca Cola researchers of all time.

All I can say at the moment is, other than the Cecil Munsey account and others like it which use the 1904 date, the earliest date I can find for Coca Cola being bottled in Monroe, Louisiana is 1912.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This should eliminate Fidelity Bottling Works as being a Coca Cola bottler. It's from a *1913-1914 *Monroe business directory, and because we know the Biedenharn's were fully established by this time, its almost certain that both companies were not bottling Coca Cola simultaneously. 1.  Full page of 1913-1914 Directory2.  Cropped portion showing Fidelity Bottling / William J Mattei


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## Bass Assassin

Again, great work Bob. I met a gentleman a few weeks ago who lives a couple streets over from me. He is a soda pop collector and i know he has some of the early Monroe, LA straight side cokes. He was in a bottle club back in the 60-70's and the club did all their digging in the old city dump. I am going to try to set up a day to go see him either this week or next. If there's an earlier bottle than the one you just purchased, i believe he would know. Sw arkansas, i am aware of the bottle you mentioned. Did it look like this one?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Sounds good to me. Hopefully he has the answer(s). In the meantime ...  
Note of Interest ...

Old newspapers don't tell the whole story, but they do tell some of it. The newspaper archives I subscribe to currently has 76,838,069 individual pages. The following comes up when I use the search words *Coca Cola* ...

Total Number of Matches = 851,082
State of Louisiana only = 1,835 matches
Monroe, Louisiana* only = 342 matches

* Includes two Monroe newspapers ...

1. The Monroe News-Star
2.  Monroe Morning World

Of the 342 Monroe matches for Coca Cola, the absolute earliest is the 1913 article pictured below. It's about some kind of contest they conducted to promote local businesses. The rules are confusing, but because they give the answers to their questions I am assuming the winners were decided in a drawing. Anyway, it's the earliest I can find and closely ties in with the arrival of the Biedenharn's in 1912.

From ...

The Monroe News-Star ~ Louisiana ~ *February 27, 1913*

The number 10 indicates Coca Cola was the 10th on the list of the twelve companies listed.

1.  Contest heading and rules.
2.  One of two portions
3.  Two of two portions

Notice the *Ltd. *"Limited / Limited Liability"  <<< Is there a clue regarding this?


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## goodman1966

Well I searched chronicalingamerica. And found nothing on Monroe Coca Cola before 1913. However I did did this.... May 18,1905 the Caucasion. I would really like to one of his bottles ![attachment=image.jpg]


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## Bass Assassin

Very interesting. Do you have any images of the bottle?


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## goodman1966

Unfortunately no. Hutch book list 4 variants of his, all rare. Only 2 sales I found was
At Ricks bottle room 2005 sold for over 1200.00 with coca cola in the description and another for 22.00 without coca cola.  Mitch


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because this issue of ...                                                      *The American Bottler**                                                                 1912**                                                   July 15 Vol. XXXII. No.7**                                                              Page 58*                            Uses the name *Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company* Means the name change from Ouachita Valley Bottling Works had to occur prior to July of 1912 http://books.google.com/books?id=PIdRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA6-PA57&dq=ouachita+valley+bottling+works&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ct0FVJSxGoLNggTTh4KgBw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ouachita%20valley%20bottling%20works&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB

Which brings us to this little mystery from a 1921 issue of The American Bottler ...                                                          *? 1911 ?*


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## Bass Assassin

I was pretty sure with the year 1912. Wow, now we see it could have actually been 1911 !!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I realize the information from the pdf article, which was authored by a Government employee doing research connected with the historical aspect of the old Coca Cola bottling plant, is by no means the final word, but when someone uses specific dates, such as *March 1* in this case, it leads me to believe the author had access to some fairly accurate records. Otherwise he could just as easily have said, "sometime in early 1912." But he didn't! He said *March 1*. And not only did he say March 1, but he said March 1 [1912] was when "the brothers *purchased *the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works from Mr. Joe Renwick."

Which brings us back to the July 15, 1912 issue of The American Bottler. Because the article had to go through various phases before going to press, it's highly possible it was written around July 1st. So if the pdf article is correct about the March 1st date, and The American Bottler is correct about the July 15th date, then I guess we have to believe the Biedenharn's bought the plant, installed an automatic bottling machine, and everything else imaginable in starting up a bottling plant, and accomplished it all in four short months between March 1st and July 1st of 1912.

*I don't think so! *

          I'll bet you dimes to donuts the Biedenharn's had their feet on the ground in *1911*


----------



## Bass Assassin

Let me throw this wrinkle in just when you think you might have it figured out. I was searching for the archive that showed coca cola syrup orders by company and town for louisiana in 1906-1907 ( i remembered seeing it when i was researching a timeframe for when coca cola was first bottled in Ruston, LA). Anyway, i can't find it now but its out there somewhere. While i was searching today, i came across an archive in 1907 referring to Joe Renwick ordering syrup ( not stated as coca cola syrup) for "Washita" Bottling works.... Yep , it was clearly spelled Washita. I don't know if it was a mispelling or if that was the correct spelling but that could change your search altogether...


----------



## Bass Assassin

Well i see my posting was altered because of a 4 letter word found in my spelling of w-a-s-h-i-t-a


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Great find!  And I concur the name .. The American Bottler ~ 1908 http://books.google.com/books?id=NZRRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA36&lpg=RA5-PA36&dq=washita+bottling+monroe+louisiana&source=bl&ots=aOSZQu6XcP&sig=u-39wp5-9W3GzAS53iQXrL2R34c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ymwGVMr1Apa7ggTy1ILgCA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=washita%20bottling%20monroe%20louisiana&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which means one of several possibilities ... 1.  Joe Renwick originally owned W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling, sold it and started Ouachita Bottling2.  Joe Renwick owned two bottling plants3.  Joe Renwick changed the name from one to the other4.  ?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

We just saw a reference to W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works in the *1908 *American Bottler. Now here's a reference to Ouachita Valley Bottling Works from *1906-1907*. Even though the 1906-07 reference doesn't say who the owner was, we know it was owned by Joe Renwick. Because of the overlap in dates, it appears to me they were two different operations, both owned by Joe Renwick. But whether either of them ever bottled Coca Cola, still remains to be determined. And I'm still searching for that mysterious and elusive 1904 date. ???  You'll have to use the link and go to the website to see the entire page - the portion below is the best I can do at the moment.    http://books.google.com/books?id=zBJHAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA150&dq=ouachita+valley+bottling+works&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G3MGVL-ADIPDggT5s4HABQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ouachita%20valley%20bottling%20works&f=false


----------



## goodman1966

There is a root made 1912 Monroe coke on the bay right now. Here's the description from eBay . 
Offered is a selection consisting of one vintage Louisiana Coca Cola bottle dating between 1910 and 1915.The bottle is Automatic Bottle Machine manufacture style(ABM)with crown top finish.The lot includes:

1)—A 7 1/2”tall, 2 1/2” diameter, aqua crown top soda bottle, embossed on one side ""Registered / Property Of / The Ouachita / Coca Cola / Bottling Co. / Monroe, La.". Bottom embossed "ROOT", heel date code of  1461  12  . There is a 1/2" crack in top of lip, as shown, and overall hazing, should tumble up pretty good!

Great addition for the collection of Louisiana bottles or Monroe memorabilia!!

Bottle has been dug, has overall hazing, light damage as noted.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mitch Great find! Here's the link and a picture. Even though it's a block-letter bottle, and probably intended for flavored beverages, the ROOT 12 confirms the Biedenharn's were in operation at the time, which we knew from various sources, but this double confirms it because there is nothing like a real bottle instead of an advertisement to set the record straight. It's too bad it's so hard to date some of the early straight-sided bottles, which is one of the reasons I like ROOT bottles because they are usually dated. I doubt it will be, but I'm hoping the amber bottle I just bought is also a ROOT, or at least has some kind of code the seller overlooked. eBay Link:http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOUISIANA-COCA-COLA-BOTTLE-Block-Letter-Ouachita-C-C-Bottling-Co-Monroe-c-1912-/251480364711?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8d65d6a7


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of setting the record straight ... Earlier I posted this same image of a 1912-1913 Directory showing that Joe Renwick was still listed as the proprietor of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. Well, notice this other one I found from 1913-1914. It list Joe Renwick as a "Dairymen." The main reason I'm bringing this to our attention is to show that after Renwick sold to the Biedenharn's he became a dairymen and was totally out of the picture by 1913.  1.  1912-19132.  1913-1914 Cropped3.  1913-1914 Full Page (to confirm date)


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## goodman1966

The Biedenharn's had to be in full operation in Monroe by the end of 1912 at the very least. I found some legal notices in the Caucasian paper in shreveport. Jan,9 1913 calling for a meeting of the board of directors for Star Bottling Works with O.L. Beidenharn  as President of that company. So they had bought it buy the end of 1912. Surely they bottled coke in Monroe before Star Bottling Works started bottling it !


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on the extensive research I have done, which involves no less than 30 hours of intensive searching, I am currently leaning toward the possibility that the 1904 date for when Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe, Louisiana is incorrect. As I said earlier, I believe the 1904 date originated in Cecil Munsey's 1972 book and that all other references to the date stemmed from that single source. I do not know where Mr. Munsey got his information, but because the 1904 date cannot be found and/or confirmed by any other source, I call it into question. With so much information available on the Internet and in books, if Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe in 1904, I have to believe there would be at least one other reference to it somewhere. Not only that, but if the Biedenharn's bought a company (Ouachita Valley Bottling Works) that was already bottling Coca Cola, then I have to believe there would be at least one reference saying as much. But as it stands, there are zero references other than in Munsey's book that even hint at the 1904 date. I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong on my opinion, but it really should not be that hard to find something, anything to support that Coca Cola was in fact bottled in Monroe as early as 1904.

This is just an opinion, mind you, nothing more and nothing less!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I am beginning to think the listings in Cecil Munsey's book are either typos or else just downright incorrect. Stand by and I will show evidence on this page and the one that follows. First of all, here are the Louisiana listings I scanned from Mr. Munsey's book. Especially notice the start up date for Ruston which he has at *1905*.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now notice what it says in this newspaper article from ... The Ruston Daily Leader ~ Ruston, Louisiana ~ October 11, 1933


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Is it even remotely possible the listings should actually be ... Monroe ... 1914 or earlierRuston ...  1915


----------



## Bass Assassin

No. Notice it says Ruston Steam Bottleworks, INC , was INCORPORATED  in 1915.  They were definitely around in 1906 but not incorporated. I don't know exactly when they started up but i saw yesterday on an archive where they purchased some kind of machinery in 1906.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Here's a link from 1908 with Mr Griffin as president. http://books.google.com/b...uoKADQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> No. Notice it says Ruston Steam Bottleworks, INC , was INCORPORATED in 1915. They were definitely around in 1906 but not incorporated. I don't know exactly when they started up but i saw yesterday on an archive where they purchased some kind of machinery in 1906.



I've seen that reference before and might even have posted it, but it says "Ruston Steam" and I see no connection with Coca Cola mentioned. The way I see it is they started out with the Steam name and then switched to the Coca Cola name in 1915.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Ruston Steam Bottling Works did indeed bottle Coca Cola at some point as evidenced by their bottles like the one below. But where is the evidence that bottles like this date to around 1905 or even 1907? It could be a 1915 bottle. I'm wide open to interpretation here and not locked in to anything concrete, but I'd still like to see more evidence like Mitch's ROOT 12 Coca Cola bottle from Monroe. Speaking of which, I'm still leaning toward my amber Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Coca Cola bottle as being the first one used by the Biedenharn's in 1912.


----------



## Robby Raccoon

Is that one hand-tooled? Why's where the lip go on look so wavy?


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## Bass Assassin

Sorry, i misunderstood your post Bob.  I'll get you the proof for ruston steam bottling works as a bottler for coca cola prior to 1910. It'll take me a while to do the research but i have seen their syrup orders and other ledgers concerning coca cola for the 1906-1910 time period


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Sorry, i misunderstood your post Bob. I'll get you the proof for ruston steam bottling works as a bottler for coca cola prior to 1910. It'll take me a while to do the research but i have seen their syrup orders and other ledgers concerning coca cola for the 1906-1910 time period



Mark Sounds good. I have been looking for the syrup info ever since you first brought it to our attention but haven't found anything yet.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Spirit Bear said:
			
		

> Is that one hand-tooled? Why's where the lip go on look so wavy?



SB The finish looks "applied" but I doubt that it is. Because I don't own the bottle and found the picture on the Internet, I can't say for certain.


----------



## Robby Raccoon

Thanks.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, the ledger i saw about a year ago was from a newsletter coca cola distributed to the bottling companies. I don't know if it was monthly, annually or how often it was printed. And for the life of me i can't remember the name of it. Do you know any coca cola gurus that might know what i'm referring to?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Bob, the ledger i saw about a year ago was from a newsletter coca cola distributed to the bottling companies. I don't know if it was monthly, annually or how often it was printed. And for the life of me i can't remember the name of it. Do you know any coca cola gurus that might know what i'm referring to?



The first person that comes to mind is Bill Porter, but based on what I've heard lately, he apparently is not currently responding to emails. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

My Ouachita Valley Bottling Works / Coca Cola bottle hasn't arrived yet but should by Friday. In the meantime I'm trying to date it based entirely on the seller's pictures and description. Notice the seller's description below and where he refers to it as a BIMAL. I know that means "Blown In Mold - Applied Lip"  Because most of my bottles are acls and I only have a couple of BIM examples, I'm not all that educated on dating this type of bottle. However, based on what I do know and have read, BIMAL bottles usually date to *1905 or earlier*. I'll know more about it after I've had time to examine it, but in the meantime wanted to share this picture of the side showing the slug plate an swirly pattern in the glass. Based on this particular picture, can anyone tell me with any measure of certainty whether this is a pre 1905 BIMAL or a post 1905 ABM (Automatic Bottle Machine) bottle? I don't have a good picture of the neck and lip to check the seams, etc.        


eBay Seller's Description ...

Extremely early and unusual base named and empty side slug amber Coke bottle. BIMAL, NO WEAR, dirty dug condition, scattered fleabites, no other damage."OUACHITA VALLEY BOTTLING WORKS"  No TMR or contents. Heel script is only embossing on either side.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Spirit Bear Here's a brief tutor in case you'd like to do some research on dating bottles. I'm studying it myself and still have a lot to learn about BIM/BIMAL bottles. At this juncture I'd say if the seam on my bottle stops at the neck or shoulder and doesn't go all the way over the lip that it's likely to be a pre 1910 bottle, which could changes things regarding the dates we've been discussing about the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, Louisiana. Here's the link. Check it out! http://www.antiquebottles.com/questions.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The seemingly never ending questions are carbonating me. It should be a simple thing to find out *what* *year did the first Coca Cola bottler begin operation in Monroe, Louisiana and what was their name?   *                                The answer is out there somewhere, but where?


----------



## goodman1966

Woooohoooo !!!!! My first 100 post thread ! Thanks to all who participated ! Well mark, I guess I will have to expand my bottle hunting out your way, like Bob said, nothing like evidence in your hand !  The answer will come. We just have to find it ( easier said than done).  Mitch


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## Bass Assassin

Being a BIM bottle doesn't necassarily nake it pre 1905. If its a soda bottle i would venture to say pre 1910-15. In that time period most of the bottle making industry was investing in the ABM process and by 1915 the vast majority of bottles were ABM. I found a bottle i dentical to the tuston bottle posted below. It was definitely a BIM bottle. Here's a better picture of the bottle in question.  The seams were thick and the glass was full of bubbles. Were the top was broken off there was visible evidence thT the top was applied.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 said:
			
		

> Just picked this up Friday. Root glass co. 1913. Heel embossed Property of Ouachita Coca Cola on one side. Bottling Co. Monroe,La_ Yes a dash. Never seen that before.



  I have been looking at some of the straight-sided Vicksburg, Mississippi Coca Cola bottles, most if not all of which I am assuming are Biedenharn bottles before they moved to Monore. I noticed that some of them are described as having been made by the Root Glass Company. This is not to sat that all of the Biedenharn bottles were made by Root, but it appears that many of them were. It would be like searching for a needle in a haystack to try and determine who made the various Biedenharn bottles from Vicksburg, Mississippi, especially when so many sellers don't give detailed descriptions. But I can't help but wonder if the Biedenharn's got their bottles from Root while in Vicksburg if they didn't continue to order them from Root after they moved to Monroe? The point I'm trying to make is, if both the Vicksburg and the Monroe Biedenharn Coca Cola bottles are Root bottles, then it only stands to reason that my Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle, if bottled by Biedenharn, should also be a Root bottle. And if it's not, then ... ???  Here's the link and picture of one such Coca Cola/Biedenharn/Root bottle from Vicksburg ... http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-coca-cola-coke-straight-side-442035502 (The paper label looks fake but the bottle is genuine)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Based on the seller's description of my Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Coca Cola bottle, and where he said the only embossing was the Coca Cola on the side and the bottler's name and location on the base, that I am about 99.99% certain it is not a ROOT bottle. So we might as well ponder the question now as to why the Vicksburg and Monroe bottles are ROOT bottles but the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle is not?


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## Bass Assassin

I follow you Bob. Would stand to believe if he had a deal with root while he was in vicksburg then he would be more apt to use root when he started in monroe as well. I don't believe the bottle you just purchased says root on it but i could be wrong.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark! It looks like we were both typing and posting at the same time again, and only seconds apart. It must be true what they say about great minds thinking alike. (Lol) []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Mystery Solved!  *(At least part of it, anyway) Check this out. It's from a 1912-1913 Monroe, Louisiana directory and clearly shows that the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottled Coca Cola. Something even better is found on one of the first pages of the 140 page directory where it indicates the information for this particular directory was compiled from information gathered in 1911. But what the directory doesn't specify is exactly who owned the bottling works at the time and whether it was Joe Renwick or Joseph Biedenharn? I'm betting it was Joe Renwick!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The image I just posted was only the advertisement for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. Here's the actual listing. Where it shows (see bottom lines) refers to the advertisement which appears on numerous pages of the directory.


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## Bass Assassin

Well, I have a confession to make Bob. There was another bottle that was for sale identical to yours and i placed a bid on it and won it! Can't wait to get ny hands on it. I've lived here all my life and the 2 bottles we just purchased are the only 2 i've ever heard of! Oh, i think it was the same seller by the way.


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## Bass Assassin

I just read the ads you posted again and it just occurred to me that the address listed for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ( corner of Washington and 9th) is not the same address as the Biedenharn building which was built on Walnut St. They ate actually a couple blocks apart. On my way home from work tomorrow, i am going by this address to see what is there.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Congratulations on your OVBW bottle. Please take some picture and tell us more about it when it arrives and I will do the same and hoping mine arrives tomorrow. The directory page below is from the same 1912-1913 Monroe directory I posted earlier with the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works listing but this page is the residential B section where the *Biedenharn *name should be if any of them were living in Monroe at the time. But, as you can see, not a single Biedenharn name is listed. This indicates to me that the Biedenharn's were not living in Monroe when the information for this directory was compiled in 1911. Thus, the Bottling Works was no doubt owned and operated by Joe Renwick at the time. ???


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## Bass Assassin

Again, another discovery concerning the addresses you posted earlier. .. Fidelity Bottling is listed as 106 Adams st. Ouachita Valley is listed as corner of Washington and 9th. It just so happens that Washington and Adams are 1 block apart.. It is possible they could have shared the same building but used different addresses and different entrances.. ?? Our thoughts earlier that Joe Rebwick owned both companies may be a reality.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*1 of 3* *According to the 1912-1913 Monroe Directory, Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was 
owned by Joseph Renwick at the time. (Information for the Directory was compiled 
in 1911)*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*2 of 3* *According to the 1912-1913 Monroe Directory, Fidelity Bottling Works was owned 
by William J Mattei at the time. (Information for the Directory was compiled in 
1911)*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*3 of 3 * *According to the 1913-1914 Monroe Directory, the Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co. was in operation at the time and, as we know, was owned by the Biedenharn's. Fidelity Bottling Works is still listed but Ouachita Valley Bottling Works is not.  (Information for the Directory was compiled in 1912)*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*My Interpretation ...* *1.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and Fidelity Bottling Works were owned and operated by different individuals.* *2.  The Biedenharn's purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in either late 1911 or early 1912 and the name was changed to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company by July of 1912 at the latest, and possibly as early as March of 1912. *


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Regarding our amber Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Coca Cola bottles, I am currently of the opinion they were the product of Joseph Renwick and not the Biedenharn's. Because of Joseph Biedenharn's stature in the bottling business, I seriously doubt he would use someone else's bottles.


----------



## Bass Assassin

And there's a possiblity that OVBW and Fidelity were operating on the same property and when Biedenharn bought OVBW he had no choice but to build a new structure. Just throwing that in. Otherwise he could have used the existing structure if there wasn't another company operating out of the same building. When i go by there today, i will look to see if 106 Adams St is located on the same block with Washington and 9th. If it is, wow!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> And there's a possiblity that OVBW and Fidelity were operating on the same property and when Biedenharn bought OVBW he had no choice but to build a new structure. Just throwing that in. Otherwise he could have used the existing structure if there wasn't another company operating out of the same building. When i go by there today, i will look to see if 106 Adams St is located on the same block with Washington and 9th. If it is, wow!



I concur ... *Wow!* I am currently of the opinion that Joseph Renwick was the first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana and not Joseph Biedenharn.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Me to Bob. I just want to prove it


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, remember the Ruston bottle i posted pictures of earlier in this thread? This is a section of an article from Bill Porter dating center slug plate shoulder script bottles. ....competitive.
"About 1906, the Root Glass Company
(established November 1901), of Terre
Haute, Ind., began producing a frontshoulder
script bottle with the city’s or
bottler’s name prominently displayed in a
center oval slug plate. This attractive type
is found dated as late as 1911 at perhaps 10
or 12 bottling plants in Illinois, Louisiana,
Nebraska, New York and North Carolina.
and perhaps others. It was also copied by
many other bottle manufacturers"....this should date the Ruston location to around the 1908 time period and as late as 1911.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I'm following you and still searching for those elusive 1904 to 1907 dates for Coca Cola in Monroe. So far, the earliest date I can find for Joe Renwick is this *1910 Census*. Even though the census shows him as a "*Proprietor*" of a "*Bottling Works*," it does not mention which bottling works nor does it mention Coca Cola. However, I'm confident the bottling works referred to is the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. As for proving that Joseph Renwick was the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, the 1912-1913 Directory I posted clearly shows that Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottled Coca Cola and that it was owned by Joseph Renwick. And not only that, but in the same 1912-1913 Directory there is absolutely no mention of any member of the Biedenharn family living in Monroe at the time. Remember, the listings for the 1912-1913 Directory were *compiled in 1911* prior to its publication/release in 1912. This in itself is all the proof I need to convince me that ... 1.  Joseph Renwick bottled Coca Cola in Monroe at least as early as 1911. 2.  Joseph Biedenharn didn't move to Monroe until late 1911, at which time he purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works from Joseph Renwick and then changed the name to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company in the spring of 1912. Here's the 1910 Census showing Joseph Renwick as a proprietor of a bottling works.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm highly confident that our amber Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Coca Cola bottles are Renwick bottles and not Biedenharn bottles!


----------



## Bass Assassin

I can live with that Bob. Even if i can't just yet prove Renwick was bottling coke earlier than that i have enough proof to know he was the 1st coca cola bottler in Monroe and thats good enough for me. I will not give up on locating those coca cola syrup orders by the bottling companies that i ran across ladt spring. Will let you know if i ever find them. Thanks for your hard work and effort.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I can live with that Bob. Even if i can't just yet prove Renwick was bottling coke earlier than that i have enough proof to know he was the 1st coca cola bottler in Monroe and thats good enough for me. I will not give up on locating those coca cola syrup orders by the bottling companies that i ran across ladt spring. Will let you know if i ever find them. Thanks for your hard work and effort.



Mark Your welcome and thank you as well. My bottle did not arrive today but it's just gotta be here tomorrow (I hope). I can't wait to examine it and take some pictures to share. In the meantime ... At this juncture it would be next to impossible to convince me that Joseph Biedenhard had any connection with this 1912-1913 Monroe, Louisiana directory Coca Cola advertisement, especially when we take into account that the very same directory does not list him as living in Monroe at the time but it does list Joseph Renwick as not only living in Monroe, but also as the president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Just for the record ... The *1900 *Monroe, Louisiana census list Joseph Renwick as a *Cotton Buyer *at the time.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

According to this website, called "TD's Bottles," there is a 75th Anniversary Coca Cola bottle for Monroe, Louisiana. It is listed as ...

"*1981 Monroe, Louisiana ... 10 oz ... $15"*


Here's the link ...

http://www.tdsbottles.com/75th%20Anniversary.html

If my math is correct, then ...

    1981
-   75 years
----------------
= 1906

I just found this site and have not searched for a picture of the bottle yet. But if it exist, and the Coca Cola Company produced it, then I'm confident they knew what year the first bottler began operation in Monroe. If they don't know, then I don't know who does?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This website says the Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola commemorative bottle is from 1982. But whether 1981 or 1982, I'm convinced they exist!  http://www.angelfire.com/pop2/collectorscorner/75thAnniv.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark Wouldn't it be a hoot if our amber O.V.B.W. Coca Cola bottles end up being from around 1906-1907?  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Still searching for those early dates. Who the heck is Leon Hesdorffer?


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, good work again. The information is out there somewhere, we just have to find it. When i first saw our bottles i felt like they were 1905-1910.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I haven't found a picture of the commemorative bottle from Monroe yet, but I did find this book ...                                                                *Coca Cola**                                                      Commemorative Bottles**                                                        Bob & Debra Henrich**                                                                     1998*            After opening the link click on the picture of the book and then scroll to the section titled ...                                                    *75th Anniversary Bottles*                          ... where you will find a listing for the Monroe bottle dated *1982*.                                               1982 minus 75 years equals *1907* *                  "This is proof enough for me even without seeing a picture of the bottle"* *http://www.amazon.com/Coca-Cola-Commemorative-Bottles-Identification-Value/dp/1574320408*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Even without having received and examined our Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Coca Cola Bottles                                             I am confident we can date them to                                                        *Circa 1907 - 1910*


----------



## Bass Assassin

I concur! Great work!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

My bottle arrived today and I am in the process of preparing some comments about it, which I will be posting shortly. But first I wanted to share another book I found that I'm hoping will have some helpful information. I took a quick look around but so far have not found an available copy, nor do I know what they go for, but I might eventually purchase one if the price is right. Anyway, check out this copy/pasted description I found for the book which provides an idea of what the book contains. Especially notice the dates for some of the bottling facilities that Joseph Biedenharn was involved with ...  
                                                      COCA-COLA HERITAGE

          A PHOTOGRAPHIC HISTORY OF THE BIEDENHARN COCA-COLA BOTTLING BUSINESS

                                  Hardback 117-page book with numerous photographs

                                                         P. Randolph Mayo

                                                                 1990

*          Included* are stories and photographs of the entire family bottling business, including:

Biedenharn Candy Co. - Vicksburg, Mississippi - August, 1894
Ouachita Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - Monroe, Louisiana - March 1, 1912
Star Bottling Works, Inc. - Shreveport, Louisiana - December 31, 1912
Texarkana Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - Texarkana, Texas - 1914
Wichita Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - Wichita Falls, Texas - December 15, 1919
Temple Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - Temple, Texas - November 19, 1925
San Antonio Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - San Antonio, Texas - September 7, 1931
Uvalde Coca-Cola Bottling Co. - Uvalde, Texas - 1941
Coca-Cola Bottling of Northern Arizona, Inc. - Winslow and Flagstaff, Arizona - July, 1965
Coca-Cola Bottling Co. Of Cheyenne - Cheyenne, Wyoming - November, 1980

INTERVIEW WITH A. M. BIEDENHARN, SR. / BY HUNTER BELL (1965) SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS.This interview is a wonderful view back in time!

[ Cover of Book ]


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, i can check with the Biedenharn Museum next week and see if they have a copy and if so how much it is.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Bob, i can check with the Biedenharn Museum next week and see if they have a copy and if so how much it is.



Gracias' Amigo I've been looking but can't find one anywhere!


----------



## Bass Assassin

By the way, my bottle should arrive Monday. I know its not in great shape but i can't wait to get it in my hands


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*One picture is worth a thousand words!* 

My amber Ouachita Valley Bottling Works / Coca Cola bottle arrived today and after closely examining it discovered the following ...

*Features:*

1.    Extremely dark amber glass - almost a chocolate brown.
2.    7 3/4" inches tall.
3.    Six or Seven ounces?
4.    BIMAL = Blown In Mold - Applied Lip.
5.    Mold Seam stops abruptly halfway up the neck.
6.    Faint evidence of hand-tooled finish around neck.
7.    Wavy glass with numerous bubbles.
8.    No makers mark or any other codes, etc.
9.    Not a Root Glass Company bottle.
10.  Embossed on lower portion with old-school script *Coca Cola*
11.  Debossed on opposite side with a round, 2" diameter, indented "slug plate" 
12.  Embossed on base with Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Monroe, Louisiana
13.  No other embossing.

*Condition:*

1.   According to the seller, the bottle was "Dug"
2.   Faint cloudiness to glass.
3.   Various minor pings, scratches, flea-bites.
4.   No cracks or chips.
5.   Minor flea-bites on embossed *Coca Cola*  script but no case-ware.
6.    Overall condition on a scale of 1 to 10 is a *6.5*

*Estimated Value:*

1.   Still to be determine but minimum of $100.00. I found a reference to one that sold in 2006
      for $220.00 but I do not know the condition it was in.

*Year Made:*

Uncertain but based on the crash-course I educated myself with, I believe it's safe to say the bottle was most likely made sometime between 1907 and 1910.

*Overall Evaluation:*

I am of the opinion the bottle was made during Joseph Renwick's tenure with the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in Monroe, Louisiana prior to Joseph Biedenharn's arrival in circa 1911. I'm not certain exactly what the Biedenharn Museum and other sources claim, but I feel the bottle and it's accompanying accounts confirm the bottle and the bottler were the first ever in Monroe, Louisiana. Because of the controversy associated with Joseph Biedenharn and his bottling legacy, I consider this bottle to be of historical interest to collectors and historians alike.

Picture is of the mold seam that terminates halfway up the bottle's neck


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 14.  The bottle is not machine made!  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Biedenharn Coca Cola Museums, this link is for the one in Vicksburg, Mississippi ...

http://www.biedenharncoca-colamuseum.com/bottle.htm

Quote from website ...

"In the early 1900s, Joe switched to straight-sided crown bottles which maintained the integrity of the true taste of Coca-Cola. They did not, however, give any uniformity to the packaging image of the beverage. The color of the glass varied from clear and aqua to differing shades of blue, green and amber. 

In addition, the amount of liquid that a bottle contained varied from 6-7 ounces. The early straight-sided crown bottles were hand blown in molds which often left rough seams, bubbles, imperfections and irregular areas of thick and thin glass.  After 1910, the bottles were machine-made and became more uniform. Biedenharn straight-sides were embossed with "Biedenharn Candy Company, Vicksburg, Miss.," with Coca-Cola in script across the base in some cases."


----------



## Bass Assassin

Very good synopsis on your bottle. Is it possible to show a couple of photos? I noticed when you showed the picture of the bottle on ebay that it had a chocolate tone. Would like to see more of it


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Very good synopsis on your bottle. Is it possible to show a couple of photos? I noticed when you showed the picture of the bottle on ebay that it had a chocolate tone. Would like to see more of it



Please stand by. We are having a thunderstorm and I'm waiting for it to pass because I prefer full sun pictures and not flash. Plus, I don't want my camera to get soaked!  (Lol)  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Hot off the press!* *[  3 of 6  ]* *1.  Full Sun Front**2.  Natural Light Front**3.  Natural Light Back*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*[  6 of 6  ]* *1.  Coca Cola Script Natural Light**2.  Neck Natural Light**3.  Base Natural Light*


----------



## Bass Assassin

That's a nice one Bob. For what you paid you got one great deal. Wouldn't you like to see the label that would have been on that slug plate? Thanks for the pictures. By the way, i don't know if mine has a slug plate.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> That's a nice one Bob. For what you paid you got one great deal. Wouldn't you like to see the label that would have been on that slug plate? Thanks for the pictures. By the way, i don't know if mine has a slug plate.


 Yes, I'm definitely curious if it had a round paper label and what it looked like. The labels I've seen pictures of are square/angled/diamond shape. I don't recall ever seeing a round one and not sure they even exist.   It will be interesting to find out if your bottle ... 1.  Has a slug plate or not?2.  Is a BIMAL or a ABM bottle?


----------



## goodman1966

Beautiful bottle Bob, can't wait to see yours Mark !


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Come to think of it, I have to wonder if the 2" inch diameter slug-plate was intended for a paper label or something else? If a paper label went on the front above the Coca Cola script embossing, then what was the round slug plate for?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 said:
			
		

> Beautiful bottle Bob, can't wait to see yours Mark !



Mitch Thanks a lot - and there are more of them out there "somewhere"  During the course of my research I have seen pictures of about four other bottles like these, but I'm not sure of their rarity. If I had to guess I'd say "Very Rare"   ???


----------



## Bass Assassin

On the other hand it's possible that it didn't contain a label. Most of the companies had interchangeable plates to slip in the mold so a bottler could have there own plate  placed there.  I don't think that is a label area at all. This brings up another question. Why is OVBW on the bottom of the bottle and there is an empty slug plate? I'm confused. Wouldn't it be more expensive to have your name on the bottom than it would to have it in the slug plate? So did a label go there or is it a blank slug plate? Or both?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If you're asking me, my answer is "I dunno" and not sure even where to find the correct answer.                                                                 *                    ?*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

It's amazing what can be found on the Internet these days and how fast it can be found!


                                              Maybe this is "part" of the answer ...

Http://www.aquaexplorers.com/Bottleantiquehowmade.htm#.VAvGH8t0y1s

During the proliferation of Mold Blown bottles Slug Plates were developed. A Slug Plate is a reverse embossed metal plate which is inserted into a two or three piece mold. They allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to emboss their own logo on a plate which would be interchanged in a standard bottle mold. The result would be individualized product branding without the expense of creating a unique mold.


----------



## goodman1966

Found this advertisement in a Colfax La. paper. Closest thing I could find that might "fit". I am currently searching for a bottle pictured with something like this. [attachment=image.jpg]


----------



## Bass Assassin

So how many coca cola bottles have you seen with a blank slug plate and the bottler embossed on the bottom? I'm betting not many. This is one mysterious bottle.


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB
Super Member

Re: Monroe La. Straight side coke ! 6 minutes ago (permalink)
      It's amazing what can be found on the Internet these days and how fast it can be found!


                                              Maybe this is "part" of the answer ...

Http://www.aquaexplorers....wmade.htm#.VAvGH8t0y1s

During the proliferation of Mold Blown bottles Slug Plates were developed. A Slug Plate is a reverse embossed metal plate which is inserted into a two or three piece mold. They allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to emboss their own logo on a plate which would be interchanged in a standard bottle mold. The result would be individualized product branding without the expense of creating a unique mold.
This is what i'm talking about. Why would your bottle be embossed on the bottom and the slug plate be empty? Just makes no sense.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> So how many coca cola bottles have you seen with a blank slug plate and the bottler embossed on the bottom?



*1.[8|]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This morning I purchased one of these Biedenharn books on eBay and continuing to search for a copy of the other one we discussed ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-STORY-OF-JOSEPH-AUGUSTUS-BIEDENHARN-AND-COCA-COLA-BOOK-/321491199576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ada5e6658


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still searching for relevant information between about 1905 and 1910 but hitting dead-ends left and right. The unfortunate part on my end is the newspaper archives and directories I've been searching through don't go back any earlier than about 1910. And because this type of material is usually archived in libraries, I'm starting to think something happened at the Monroe library around 1909 to have caused this; maybe a fire or perhaps they just didn't start collecting this type of material until 1910. But whatever the explanation, it doesn't appear I'm going to find the magic bean that will eventually lead to a golden egg. But just for the record, I did find this 1910 Census showing that Joseph Biedenharn was still residing in Vicksburg, Mississippi in 1910 and is listed as a ...                                       [font="comic sans ms,sans-serif"]*Whole Sale / Merch / Candy Factory / Emp*[/font]                                [ 1910 U.S. Census ~ Vicksburg, Mississippi ~ 1910 ]


----------



## Bass Assassin

In my searches i've discovered there are no newspaper archives for that time petiod for wjatever reason. Yet, for the years prior to1889 there are some archived papers


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I agree - they either had a fire, flood, etc; or else just didn't start archiving until around 1910. ??? Speaking of golden eggs, the following are probably the best I'm going to be able to come up with and contribute to this discussion ... 1.  1912-1913 Monroe, Louisiana Directory ~ Listings Compiled Sometime During 19112.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ~ Coca Cola Bottle ~ Circa 1907-19103.  Base


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Earliest recorded date I have found for ... *                           Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ~ Monroe, Louisiana * * 1906 ~ 1907* *http://books.google.com/books?id=zBJHAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA150&dq=ouachita+valley+bottling+works&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G3MGVL-ADIPDggT5s4HABQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ouachita%20valley%20bottling%20works&f=false*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm trying to determine when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works began operation and if Joseph Renwick was the original owner or if it was someone else. You will recall that the 1900 Census list Renwick as a "Cotton Buyer" at the time. And yet there is a OVBW Hutchinson bottle that could easily date to the 1880s. Notice how the embossing on the side slug-plate of the Hutch bottle is almost identical to that on the base of the Crown bottle ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This OVBW Hutchion bottle listed on the "Soda & Beer Bottles of North America" website sounds like the same one I posted a picture of and even mentions the Base Design as having 10 sides. Also notice where it says it was made by the Illinois Glass Company. Based on the information from the Bottle Makers Marks website, I am assuming the OVBW Hutch bottle is marked with *I. G. CO. *and not their later mark that was an *I inside a diamond*. Here's the link and a portion of the information from the Makers Mark website ...

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/diamond-i-or-i-inside-a-diamond-mark-seen-on-antique-bottles/


The Illinois Glass Company was incorporated at Alton, Illinois in March of 1873. During the earlier years, many of their bottles carried an “I. G. CO.” mark, and later an “I G CO inside a diamond” logo. This Diamond/I mark was used by Illinois Glass from approximately 1915 up to 1929.   
*~ * ~*

Hutch Bottle Link and Description:

http://www.sodasandbeers.com/SABShowBottle.aspx?Bottle=LA0090&Firm_Number=64020
 [h2]Bottle LA0090 - Ouachita Valley Bottling Works 

[/h2]*Embossed:* (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) OUACHITA VALLEY / BOTTLING / WORKS / (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) MONROE, LA. (all in round plate) // REGISTERED / MUST NOT / BE SOLD / I. G. Co. 477 // // b // (plain)*Dimensions: *7 x 2 3/8*Manufacturer: *Marked - Illinois Glass Company *Material: *Glass*Design: *None*Mold Type: *Two Leaf Mold *Form: *Cylindrical*Edge Design: *None*Plate Mold: *Yes *Shape: *Hutchinson*Base Design: *Sides-10 sides*Plate Code:*I0477 *Sides:* *Shoulder Design: *None*Sealed: *No   *Sunken Panels:*None  *Pictures:* None*Notes:* No Notes.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Mark When your bottle arrives, check it closely for a makers mark, especially an *I. G. Co. *or an I-inside-a-diamond similar to this ... *<I>* I checked my bottle with a magnifying glass and there is no makers mark on it!


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, my bottle arrived today and after careful inspection I found it is exactly like yours(only yours is in better condition). It is  BIMAL  and actually has a bit of an egg- shape. One thing I did notice, there is still a bit of sticky residue in the blank slug plate suggesting there was once a label there.


----------



## Bass Assassin

A couple more


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Yeppers, they sure look like twins. Thanks for the great pictures.  Even though I might never be able to prove it, because ... 1.  There is a Coca Cola 75th anniversary bottle for Monroe from 1982, minus 75 years = *1907*2.  There is a O.V.B.W. Hutchinson bottle with the almost identical name embossing3.  Both of our bottles are BIMAL and crudely made4.  Have a mysterious blank slug-plate on the side5.  Plus various other miscellaneous factors ... I have a sneaking suspicion our bottles are examples of the *first* Coca Cola bottles produced by the     Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in ...                                                       *1907*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Because I cannot find a picture of the Monroe 75th anniversary Coca Cola bottle, and because I'm curious what type of information it might contain, I decided to purchase a used copy of this book I mentioned earlier. There is also a new edition available, but because those start at $100 I decided to purchase a good used one for $25.00. The book will take about a week to get here and hopefully will have some helpful information. Of course, I will share that information after I receive the book. (  Geez Louise - I need to find another thread - this one is costing me boo-koo bucks!  []  )


----------



## Bass Assassin

But it's worth every penny! Lol... On a serious note, i am in agreement with you on the date of the bottles. I truly believe these are some of the first coca cola bottles from Monroe,LA.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I truly believe these are some of the first coca cola bottles from Monroe, LA.


  Ditto! And at the time our buddy Joe Biedenharn was still back in Vicksburg, Mississippi and a good four years away from moving to Monroe to continue what Joe Renwick had started in the area.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way, did you know ...

http://www.ask4direct.com/InfoRead.asp?id=KFNV&InfoID=636734

"He [Joseph Biedenharn] bought the *Monroe area franchise* in 1912 and moved to Monroe to establish the plant in 1913. Biedenharns family continued to expand the operation throughout most of the century and grew the company to 14 bottling plants in three states before selling Biedenharn Bottling Group to Coca-Cola Enterprises in 1995 for *$313 Million*."


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark It shouldn't surprise us that our bottles were dug and in their present condition. The first thing ole' Joe Biedenharn did after taking over the franchise in Monroe was to instruct his employees to take every left-over Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle and ... "*Dump 'em over the riverbank or somewhere just so long as I never see them again."*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question: How much is a bottle worth that Joe Biedenharn personally held in his hands while standing on the banks of the Ouachita river and then tossed it as far as he could into the placid waters hoping to never see it again?  []


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## Bass Assassin

For me, priceless. Considering ny attachment to the area and the time i've put in trying to figure out the facts.


----------



## iggyworf

Bob I got that book for my girlfriend, who loves collecting coke commemoratives. Its a very good book for those bottles. Excellent thread with loads of info. Thanx you guys.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark When you took this picture of the Coca Cola plant from the Ouachita river I think you overlooked something. I think I see something laying in the grass. Maybe another fishing trip is in order to check it out more closely.


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## Bass Assassin

Thats a good one Bob. There's a ton of history on that particular spot on the river. The bank comes down and there's a ledge that sticks out into the river abot 30 ft and its about  300 ft long. . This is where the steamboats would tie up and get loaded with cotton. They used that particular spot for about 75 years . There was once a cotton warehouse standing in the area where the Biedenharn building south wall is (thats the south wall in the photo). Boy , what i would give to be allowed to do some digging on that little piece of land and out into the water about 20 ft. Just down river about 500 ft is where the original spanish Fort Miro was built in the early 1800's. The name was changed to Monroe about the middle 1800's. A union gunboat once anchored in the river during the Civil War and blasted away at the first courthouse built in Monroe. If you look hard enough, you can see old Biedenharn standing up on that bank realizing he's hit a gold mine bottling coca cola.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> If you look hard enough, you can see old Biedenharn standing up on that bank realizing he's hit a gold mine bottling coca cola.



*You're right!  I see him now!*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Joseph Biedenharn ... *Rags to Riches!* 1.  Early ~ Exact location and date unknown ~ But definitely him by all accounts! 2.  1930s with sons ~ He's the tall, grey-haired gentleman third from the left.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I received the Biedenharn booklet yesterday, which contains 16 pages and tells the story of Joseph Biedenharn's Coca Cola bottling empire. Because it was published by the "Emy-Lou Biedneharn Foundation" I trust the information it contains to be accurate. Emma Louise was Joseph and Anne Biedenharn's only daughter who was born in 1902 and died in 1984. Emy-Lou was a successful opera singer and in later years was instrumental in developing the Biedenharn Home and Bible museum in Monroe.

Because the booklet has museum tour information on the last page, it's obviously related to the museum and no doubt available in the museum gift shop. As you will see when you read the paragraph I scanned from the booklet, it clearly states ...

"*In 1912, the Biedenharn Candy Company bought a small Coca-Cola bottling plant in Monroe, Louisiana*."

Even though we were able to determine there was indeed a Coca Cola bottler in Monroe prior to when the Biedenharn's arrived, which we now know was operated by Joseph Renwick, I'm a little confused as to why there was any doubt of this in the first place, especially when the Museum itself says as much in their book? I have no way of knowing what the Museum personnel are telling their visitors, but if they're saying Joseph Biedenharn was the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, then they are either misinformed or else didn't read their own book. Perhaps Mark and/or Mitch can enlighten us further on where the doubt came from as to who owned and when the first Coca Cola bottling plant was established in Monroe? But then again, maybe it was me who misunderstood what was being said in this regard, but I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread developed into determining who and when the first Coca Cola bottler was in Monroe, Louisiana.   

1.  Booklet Cover
2.  Scan From Page 11


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Sorry Bob we must have been typing at the same time. Ok, i see where it shows Monroe was apparently already in operation BEFORE Biedenharn moved here (and before the Ruston plant opened). This means all the historical records here are wrong! Biedenharn has been credited for opening the coca cola plant in Monroe,LA. and apparenlty he did not!



Mark I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but I believe this post of yours is where the controversy began about who was the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe. Exactly what "*historical records*" are you referring to?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This link is to the "Biedenharn Museum & Gardens" website in Monroe. Click on the About Us option on the top-left side of the task-bar where you will find the following quote ...

"Under Joe's leadership, his brothers, sons, and grandsons, *established* plants in Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, and Arkansas eventually becoming the ninth largest bottling corporation in the United States."

I highlighted the word "established" to draw attention to it. The word "established" generally leads one to believe it was "the first and only." And even though the way they use the word in this particular quote is somewhat misleading, I suppose it could also mean the Biedenharn's "further established" an already existing Coca Cola plant and developed it into a dynasty. But if I didn't know what I do now, and read this quote for the first time, I too would be lead to think that the Biedenharn's were the first Coca Cola bottlers in Louisiana, which we now know they weren't.           

http://www.bmuseum.org/


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. But I'm still curious as to what the Museum personnel are telling their visitors and exactly what the Museum displays portrait in this regard?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I mentioned in the booklet I have that on the last page there is some Museum tour information. Part of that information is an 800 phone number. I just called the number and it was answered by a Ralph Calhoun who said he was the Director of the Museum. Because he was outside working on an air-conditioning problem, I kept the conversation brief. I didn't mention this forum and just told him I was doing some Coca Cola research for the Monroe area. Ralph was very courteous and said he had time for a couple of questions. He also gave me his email address. When I asked him if Joseph Biedenharn was the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, he said no and that they bought a bottling facility that was already in operation. When I asked him the name of the bottler, he replied by saying he couldn't remember it off the top of his head, but that he had the name in his files and for me to email him and he would send it to me. When I asked if the bottler bottled Coca Cola, his exact words were, "I'm not sure but I can find out when I check my files."  He said for me to include both of these question and any other's I have and include them in my email. He closed by saying he would do his best to answer them. He also mentioned something about a prepared in advance article that he has on file that he's going to send me when I contact him. I'm not sure what the article contains, but he said it will likely answer most of my questions. I plan to email either him later today or tomorrow, but first I have to compile a list of appropriate questions for him. I will let everyone know what he comes up with just as soon as I hear back from him.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I decided not to wait and just sent the following copy/pasted email message to Mr. Calhoun ... 
Dear Mr. Calhoun:

I'm the individual who called you on the phone this morning while you were working on the air conditioning and had some questions about Joseph Biedenharn and his Coca Cola bottling operation in Monroe. By the way, I hope you got the air conditioning fixed. Living in southern California as I do, I know how miserable it can be without it. 

My main questions are as follows ...

1.   Who owned the existing bottling plant that Joseph Biedenharn purchased?

2.   Did the pre-existing plant bottle Coca Cola?

3.   Most sources say Coca Cola was established in Monroe in 1904. Do you have information that confirms this? 

4.   Exactly what year did Joseph Biedenharn purchase the pre-existing plant?

5.   Did Joseph Biedenharn move to Monroe the same year he bought the plant?

6.   I've seen references for a Joseph Renwick who apparently was the owner of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, which I believe was the operation that Biedenharn bought. What do your records have to say about Mr. Renwick?

7.   Does your Museum display any of the so called Renwick Coca Cola bottles?


During our conversation this morning you mentioned something about an article with a lot of helpful information. I would love to see the article. If possible, please send it to me as an attachment.

I truly enjoyed our conversation and look forward to hearing from you. Thank you again for taking the time to assist me with my inquiry - it is very much appreciated.

Best Regards

( w/ my name and location )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If anyone is wondering why I didn't mention anything about the O.V.B.W bottles and everything else to Mr. Calhoun, it's because I want to wait and see what he has to say first. Depending on the information he sends me, I will probably send him some pictures in my reply.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark The next big questions for us to try and answer are ... 1.  If Mr. Calhoun has information confirming a 1904 date for Coca Cola bottling in Monroe, is it possible that our bottles date to 1904? If so, then how can we determine if our OVBW Coca Cola bottles are from 1904, 1907, or some other year? 2.  If the 1904 date is confirmed, then how do we explain the 75th Anniversary bottle for 1907? Does the 75th Anniversary bottle indicate the first "bottling" of Coca Cola in Monroe or the first distribution of it in "soda fountains?"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. This brings us to the commemorative bottle book I ordered which I'm hoping arrives soon and has the answers to my last questions.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of historical documents, the information on this link primarily pertains to Joseph Renwick's father Wiley Polk Renwick and of his time spent in the Confederate Army during the Civil War. Part of the document, which was published in 1914, talks about Wiley's connection with the cotton industry starting after the War in 1871, which explains the 1900 Census I found for Joseph that list him as a cotton buyer at the time. The document also mentions both father and son as being dairymen when the article was written in 1914. Even though the article doesn't say as much, it sounds as if Joseph acquired the money to start the bottling works by way of his earlier career as a cotton buyer. Check it out ... http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/ouachita/bios/renwick.txt  By the way, my objective with this line of research is to try and find out more about Joseph Renwick so the record is straight as to who he was and how he became a Coca Cola bottler. There is an endless amount of information about Joseph Biedenharn, and now it's time to give Joseph Renwick his just due as the first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana. That is unless Mr. Renwick bought out someone that was already bottling Coca Cola before he did. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm not sure how much information there is about Joseph Renwick but some of what I'm finding is kind of interesting. Joe was born around 1869 but obviously wasn't always a cotton buyer nor a bottler of Coca Cola. But he was definitely a busy beaver. According to these two newspaper ads, dated 1887 and 1888 when Joe was 18 and 19 years old, he was apparently a firewood supplier. The first ad makes it sound as if he was working for a company called The Trousdale Brothers. But about a year later it sounds as if he was working for himself. Somewhere along the line I believe he attended collage but I haven't found enough about that yet to confirm it. Heck, by the time I'm through with this research I might turn up more information on Joseph Renwick than the Biedenharn Museum has.


1.  The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ *December 24, 1887 *~ 18 years old

2.  The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ *August 25, 1888* ~ 19 years old


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

More ... Joe Renwick was also a member of the Masonic/Fraternal organization called the "Ouachita Pelicans." Notice in the first article where Joe won an award for drilling. Also notice who one of the judges was that presented Joe with the award - none other than Captain Trousdale of The Trousdale Brothers. Speaking of Captains, notice in the second article where Joe was elected captain after all of the others officers apparently resigned. I wonder why they resigned and also how it turned out that Joe was elected captain to replace that Trousdale guy? Hmm, do I sense a conspiracy here? [] Joe was 20 years old in 1889 Both articles are from the Ouachita Telegraph Newspaper and dated ... 1.  July 20, 18892.  September 7, 1889


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... The Trousdale Brothers were grocers of general merchandise including farm implements, etc. Because Joe Renwick apparently worked for them at one point with the firewood and they were members of the Ouachita Pelicans together, maybe the grocery aspect was one of the influences that led Joe to eventually becoming a bottler. From ... The Ouachita Telegraph ~ January 28, 1888


----------



## Bass Assassin

Wow Bob, you've been busy today. I have been to the museum only once and that was about 1 year ago. When I entered and paid my money I was then given a tour by an elderly lady who proceeded to recite lines describing everything we looked at as we made our way through the museum. At one point she actually stated that BIedenharn opened the first coca cola bottling plant in northeast Louisiana in 1912. At this time i stopped her and stated that was not the case because i had a Ruston,LA bottle that dated pre 1910. She was very surprised and didn't know how to respond. I explained that I wasn't trying to be a problem but I felt like she was giving credit to Biedenharn for something undeserving. Anyway, we went on and later she let me know that she was a new employee and was only stating what she was instructed to say to visitors...so, this is where the idea came from when I said earlier in the thread that Biedenharn was given credit for being the first coca coka bottler in this area. It could be that many people are confused by him being the" first successful bottler of coca cola" verses the "first bottler of coca cola in this area." I could be wrong Bob but I'm sure  I've seen hs name as being the first bottler of coca cola in this area on a couple of websites through the years... I'll see if I can find one of those references. By the way, great research on Joe Renwick!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks for the clarification - I figured it was something like that. When I hear back from Ralph Calhoun I will probably do a follow up and send him some pictures of our bottles plus some of the key newspaper articles. Maybe the museum will be able to use them and add them to their archive files. But it really depends on what Ralph comes up with. He might have more information than what I have been giving him credit for. We'll see! Correction ... Joseph Renwick was not born in 1869 as I previously thought. He was ... Born:  July 4, 1868Died:  April 24, 1942 at the age of 73 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20663333&ref=acom


----------



## Bass Assassin

The following statement is correct but very misleading."MONROE -- Coca-Cola Enterprises will cease its bottling production in Monroe in September, eliminating 80 jobs at the historic Ouachita Coca-Cola plant that was founded by Joseph Biedenharn, the first person to bottle Coke"..       I'll keep looking


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Good find!  There's that word "founded" which is similar to the word "established" found on the Museum's website, both of which are misleading.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Here's another very misleading statement..."The first person to bottle Coke was Joseph Biedenharnin in Vicksburg, Miss., in 1894. In 1912 he bought a bottling franchise in Monroe, Louisiana and moved to Monroe to establish the plant in 1913."...


----------



## Bass Assassin

And this statement is way off base.."Two giant names of American business are deeply ingrained in the history of Monroe, and its neighbor across the Ouachita River, West Monroe: Delta Airlines got its start here in 1926 as a crop dusting service, and Coca-Cola opened its first bottling plant here. Today, those legacies provide unique attractions for visitors. Biedenharn Home and Gardens, the estate of that first Coke bottler, is open to the public as a museum and sculpture garden. The Chennault Aviation and Military Museumof Louisiana has exhibits on Delta Airlines, the local World War II flight school at Selman Field and the volunteer combat unit called the Flying Tigers co - See more at: http://www.louisianatrave...e#sthash.D0E5WWcy.dpuf"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Good stuff! If Ralph Calhoun is misinformed as well, you might have to go over there and ruff him up a little bit. Err, I mean "Set him straight on a few things"  []


----------



## Bass Assassin

If you sent him all the questions you posted earlier, I think he's going to be very careful in the way he answers. I expect he will do his homework first.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I expect he will do his homework first.



I hope he does do his homework, and maybe find some information that will surprise us. By doing the research himself it might spark his interest enough to possibly integrate it into the museum system.( I'm hoping to hear from him today ) Here are a couple of more Renwick ads for your scrapbook. After Renwick sold the bottling works and became a dairymen, my first impression was of him milking cows and sloshing around in you-know-what. But I see now where the dairy wasn't just a producer of dairy products, but also a manufacturer and distributor, which means they must have had a milk bottling operation as well as other facilities for processing products such as butter, ice cream, etc. Both ads are from the Monroe News-Star ... 1.  May 28, 19132.  July 22, 1921


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## Bass Assassin

I posted a statement similar to this one last night saying Monroe had the 1st coca cola bottling operation. Bob, have you seen anything like this in your research? ..."During the years that followed, Monroe had its share of success as primarily an agricultural community. It had the first Coca Cola bottling operation in Louisiana. In 1914, Joseph Biedenharn the first Coca Cola bottler, relocated to Monroe and remained there until his death in 1952....


----------



## Bass Assassin

Here's a new one one, Monroe had the first coca cola bottling plant.???.."Monroe is located along the Ouachita River and is the parish seat for Ouachita Parish. It's the primary distribution base for the region's farmers. According to National Geographic, the Ouachita River is one of the most beautiful rivers in the entire world. The region is known as "Sportsman's Paradise," and is the location of the first Coca Cola bottling plant."...


----------



## Bass Assassin

I promise this will be my last link to share as now I have found where Biedenharn actually founded coca cola..."Nestled on the banks of the Ouachita River in northern Louisiana, Monroe offers a range of attractions sure to keep visitors busy. Perhaps the most interesting is the Biedenharn Home and Museum, the historic 1913 home of Coca-Cola founder Joe Biedenharn. "...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Did you say "founder" or "flounder?" There's a big difference you know! One is a person who finds and/or starts something and the other is a fish that flops around on the shore after you catch it and remove the hook from it's mouth. But don't pay any attention to me - I haven't caught a fish in years!  []  In other words ... (To be continued)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark

Continued ...

I have seen statements similar to the ones you posted but not identical. There has been so much written about Joseph Biedenharn that it's hard to keep track of it all. The statements you posted are incorrect on more than one account ...

First ... According to "The American Bottler" magazine we know Biedenharn was in Monroe and in operation by at least July of 1912.  


Second ...  Biedenharn wasn't the first Coca Cola Bottler in Monroe because know that "Ouachita Valley Bottling Works" was the first, under the helm of Joseph Renwick.

I realize you already know this stuff, but you gotta wonder where people get the information they come up with like in the statements you posted. I think some people just take whatever information they find from the first website they tap into, like Wikipedia, and then assume the information is 100% accurate. After that they go on their merry way and from there it spreads like wildfire until it gets to the point that no one knows what's fact and what's fiction. I'm not saying I've got it all figured out yet, because I don't!  But I'm confident that some of the stuff I've found is likely the first time some of it has ever been seen. But of all places that should know the facts, you'd think the Biedenharn Museum in Monroe would have it fiqured out by now. And yet, when I asked Ralph Calhoun yesterday if the bottling plant Joseph Biedenharn purchased in Monroe ever sold Coca Cola, his reply was, "I'm not sure." You'd think he'd know the answer to that one for sure.          

Speaking of the Biedenharn Museum, no word from Ralph Calhoun yet, but maybe tomorrow.


Speaking of "on their merry way" ...

I didn't mention this earlier because, well, because I didn't. Anyway, one of the reasons I've taken such an interest in the Monroe area is because I have cousins living there. I've lost track with most of them but know that a couple of them still live in the area. One cousin I stayed in contact with until she died in 2009 was  ...

Merry Carol  (Because she was born on Christmas day 1945) 

1.  Her maiden name was Nordstrom
2.  Her parents were Douglas and Tempe Nordstrom (Uncle Doug was my mother's brother)
3.  Her first marriage name was Bailey
4.  Her second marriage name was Justice (Larry Justice)

Two of Merry Carol's children, who are my second cousins, still live in the Monroe area. Even though Merry Carol lived in Monroe at one time, I believe she was living in Pioneer, La. at the time of her death. The main reason I even mention Merry Carol's name is because she was an accomplished artist and some of her oil paintings might still be hanging in homes in Monroe and the surrounding area. Her later paintings are signed with ...  Merry Carol Justice 

Anyway, I thought you might like to know this because I feel a little bit connected to Monroe.

Signed,

Cousin Bob  []


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I just remembered that one of Merry Carol's brothers, who is my first cousin. still lives in Monroe. His name is Harold Nordstrom and should be about 60 years old now. I haven't seen him since the early 1970s when they came out west for a visit. If anyone who reads this knows Harold, please tell him I said hello.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob , I have heard the Nordstom name before in this area. It is a unique name and not heard very often. I am also very familiar with Pioneer, LA.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Family Histories ...

Meet ...

*Wiley Polk Renwick*

W. P. Renwick was Joseph Renwick's Father

Born ... August 16, 1840 (Georgia)
Died ... April 27, 1928 (88 Years Old)

The more I look into the Renwick name the more I think they should have their own museum in Monroe as well. Here are just a few of the reasons why ...

1. W.P. joined the Confederate army in 1861 and was in the 3rd Infantry Company B. One ironic aspect of his service is that he was captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, *1863*. The irony being that Vicksburg is where Joseph Biedenharn got his start in the 1890s. Notice in the attached prisoner record that W.P. Renwick was a Lieutenant.

(To Be Continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And then after the war this *1870* Census list W.P. Renwick as a Retail Grocer ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Followed with ... 
1.  From the Ouachita Daily Telegraph ~ February 22, *1873* ~ River Boat Agent

2.  From the Ouachita Daily Telegraph ~ March 18, *1881 *~ Monroe City Councilmen

3.  From the Ouachita Daily Telegraph ~ May 9, *1886 *~ Groceries

Note:  This is only a sampling of W.P. Renwick's career. He and his family should be considered as true "founders" in a lot of Monroe, Louisiana's history.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. When W.P. Renwick was captured at Vicksburg in 1863, Joseph Biedenharn hadn't been born yet. Biedenharn was born in 1866. Joe Renwick was born in 1868.


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## Bass Assassin

The only thing i can think of in Monroe named after Renwick is Rebwick Street


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## SODAPOPBOB

Speaking of Renwick Street ... According to the 1930 Census, Joseph Renwick Sr., his wife Goldie, and their son Joseph Jr., lived at ... 2624 Renwick StreetMonroe, Louisiana Joseph is listed as being 61 years old at the time and a farmer. The home value is listed at $19,000.00  Earlier Census addresses are as follows ... 1910 ... 401 Breard (41 y/o)1920 ... FM 200  (Farming Community)  (51 y/o)1940 ... 510 North 3rd (71 y/o)  Attachments ...  1.  1930 Census2.  Census cropped ~ House number looks like 2621 but it's *2624*3.  Google Earth picture of what the house looks like today


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the house on 2621Renwick Street. Which of the two do you think was worth $19,000.00 in 1930?


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## SODAPOPBOB

According to Google Earth this is ... *401 Breard Street**Monroe, Louisiana* ... and the former location of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works - Owned by Joseph Renwick and where our amber Coca Cola bottles came from. Of course, it would also be the property Joseph Biedenharn purchased in 1912. (No word from Ralph Calhoun and no Commemorative Coca Cola book yet, but maybe today is the day)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. In an earlier post I incorrectly said Joseoh Renwick's wife's name was Goldie. It was actually ... Gordia / Gordie


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

According to Google Earth this is ...

*510 N 3rd*
*Monroe, Louisiana*


This one had me confused at first because when I found the address on a 1940 Census I naturally assumed Joseph Renwick lived there. But after seeing the building on Google Earth and then taking a closer look at the 1940 Census, I realize now the building was his Real Estate office. I'm not sure where Joseph lived in 1940 at the age of 72, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't at 510 N 3rd Street.  In the newspaper archives I kept running across advertisements about Joseph Jr. having a Bar-B-Q joint but I never connected it to possibly being connected to the Real Estate building. Take a close look at the 1940 Census snippet and you will see it list Joseph's occupation as Farmer / Real Estate and Joseph Jr. as a Cafe Manager. It also shows their ages ...

Joseph Sr. 72
Joseph Jr. 42


Hey, Mark

This old building looks like a good place for the "Renwick Museum." Because of it's current condition you should be able to purchase it for a song and a dance!

1.  1940 Census
2.   Google Earth picture of building


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm not certain if Joseph Jr's. Café was in the same building as the Real Estate office but plan to do a search and see what else I can find.


----------



## iggyworf

Bob, I have been curious about that 75th ann bottle, seeing as you did not get your commemorative book yet, I went to my girlfriends house and looked it up in the book I got her. On page 233 it has one pic only of the bottle and not much other info. Nothing specific. Maybe you can come up with more.(her book is the 2nd edition)This has become a monster thread with lots of interesting stuff. Thanx to all who provided input, especially SodapopBob, Bass Assasin and of course goodman1966 and his bottle!


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, i noticed on page 6 of our thread Ouachita Coca Coca is listed in the 1913-1914 directory on Washington St. But earlier directories list Ouachita Vally Bottling Works at a different address. Then Biedenharn came along and built a new plant on Walnut st. I'm wondering at what address OVBW was actually at when it was purchased by Biedenharn.


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## Bass Assassin

The other address is 401 Breard, which you are saying is the location that Biedenharn purchased. If so, at some point Ouachita Valley must have relocated from corner of Washington and 9th to this address, right?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark The main reasons I believe the 401 Breard Street location is the place that Biedenharn bought in 1912 is because of the 1912/1913 Directory and the 1910 Census. Both of which list the same address. The only kicker is that the Directory has an "h" with the listing which usually means "*h*ome" address. Although it doesn't seem likely, I suppose it's possible the Renwick's lived at the bottling plant at that time.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:
			
		

> Bob, I have been curious about that 75th ann bottle, seeing as you did not get your commemorative book yet, I went to my girlfriends house and looked it up in the book I got her. On page 233 it has one pic only of the bottle and not much other info. Nothing specific. Maybe you can come up with more. (her book is the 2nd edition)



iggy I got the book today but as it turns out I messed up and ordered the wrong one. I got the First Edition instead and it does not have any 75th Anniversary bottles in it - only commemoratives. So I'm glad you were able to check the one you have access to because the main thing I was hoping to establish is a "confirmed" 1907 date for Monroe Coca Cola, which I think we all agree now is the accurate date because of the anniversary bottle and various other bits and pieces of evidence to support the date. And we darn well know for certain that Joseph Biedenharn was not in Monroe in 1907!


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## Bass Assassin

I spoke to the soda collector I mentioned early in this thread. His collection is in a barn in another parish(county). He says there is an aqua version of our Ouachita Valley bottle and he's pretty sure he owns one. He said the bottles we have were definitely made in the 1905-1910 era


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> He says there is an aqua version of our Ouachita Valley bottle ...



In my hours upon hours of searching for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works *Coca Cola *bottles, I never once saw an aqua one. Very interesting.                                                                  *~ * ~* 
To help put things in perspective I have compiled the following timeline which I believe to be as accurate as I can come up with based on the evidence presented thus far. I plan to do a more detailed one in the future.

1866 ... Joseph Biedenharn born
1868 ... Joseph Renwick born
1894 ... Biedenharn bottles Coca Cola in Vicksburg, Mississippi
1900 ... Renwick is a cotton buyer in Monroe, Louisiana
1907 ... First Coca Cola bottler in Monroe (According to the Coca Cola Company)
1910 ... Renwick is president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
1912 ... Ouachita Valley Bottling Works located at 401 Breard St., Monroe, Louisiana
1912 ... Biedenharn purchases Ouachita Valley Bottling Works 
1912 ... Biedenharn changes the name to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company
1913 ... Renwick is a dairymen at Wildwood Farms, Monroe, Louisiana


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## Bass Assassin

You read my mind Bob. I was hoping you would make a detailed list of the facts


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Based on these two listings, both of which are from the same 1912-1913 Monroe Directory, there is either some confliction in the listing or else some confusion on my part. The explanation must have something to do with the letter "h" which means "home" address. The answer is at our fingertips but I haven't quite figured it out, yet.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The only thing that makes sense is that at one time there was a home at 401 Breard St. instead of that huge, old industrial building that is currently located there, which, apparently, is what the "h" means. Which in turn means the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was (as you said) at the corner of Washington and 9th. ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

But its hard to imagine that a successful bottler and businessman would live in this part of town ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is from Google Earth and shows a birds-eye view of Washington & 9th streets in Monroe. Which are mostly vacant lots now but obviously one of the corners was once the location of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works.


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## Bass Assassin

I feel pretty confident 401 Breard was his home address and the plant was at northwest corner of Washington and 9th. Notice in the phone listing of your post it also lists his daughter as having the same address (Breard) only she lives in the "addition".


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I feel pretty confident 401 Breard was his home address and the plant was at northwest corner of Washington and 9th.



 I agree!  Check this out! This is the "street view" from Google Earth and shows the building on the northwest corner of Washington & 9th.  However, when you "drive" around as the street view feature allows you to do, in one of the images the building is *gone*. 1.  Building there facing west2.  Building not there facing west  There must have been a major time lapse between one picture and the other. But whatever the explanation, I'd say the old Ouachita Valley Bottling Works building is no longer there.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Timeline Edited ... 1866 ... Joseph Biedenharn born
1868 ... Joseph Renwick born
1894 ... Biedenharn bottles Coca Cola in Vicksburg, Mississippi
1900 ... Renwick is a cotton buyer in Monroe, Louisiana
1907 ... First Coca Cola bottler in Monroe (According to the Coca Cola Company)
1910 ... Renwick is president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
1912 ... Ouachita Valley Bottling Works located at *corner of Washington & 9th*, Monroe
1912 ... Biedenharn purchases Ouachita Valley Bottling Works 
1912 ... Biedenharn changes the name to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company
1913 ... Renwick is a dairymen at Wildwood Farms, Monroe, Louisiana


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Here's your "Gold Star" for setting the record straight. []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Mark But if you want another Gold Star, you'll have to explain to us what the Renwick's were doing living in what appears to be an "Industrial District" @ 401 Breard Street. []


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## Bass Assassin

Good work Bob! I remember that old building. This part of town isn't exactly a place where you want to get out and walk around, but there is so much history here and its ashamed that it can't be "rediscovered." One more block south is the old railroad depot and the area that was once called "5 points" because it was an intersection of 5 roads. There are so many fallen down TOC buildings and vacant lots that would be great for privy digging or searching the grounds with a metal detector. You would have to be packing heat to ward off the trouble-makers.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I just purchased this Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola bottle on eBay because ... 1.  I have a sneaking its an Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle.  2.  It is *not* embossed with Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company.  3. Every script Monroe/Biedenharn bottle I've seen is marked Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co. 4. It is described as "Hand Blown" 5. It's Aqua Of course I'm not 100% certain it's the bottle I hope it is, but I'm prepared to take that gamble because another one like it might be extremely hard to find. It's not in the greatest shape, but that's okay because neither is my amber bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here are a couple of close-ups ... 1.  Script w/ Monroe, Louisiana2.  Base w/ C 1163 I'm not familiar with the C 1163 mark but plan to research it. If anyone is familiar with the mark, please let us know. Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co. is not on the bottle. I could be wrong, but I believe all of Biedenharn's post 1912-1913 straight-sided bottles are marked as such. All this one has is ...                                                                *Coca Cola*                                                        Trademark Registered                                                               Monroe, LA.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mid Body Script - About 1900-1910

http://www.antiquebottles.com/coke/index.html


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## SODAPOPBOB

*C 1163*                                                      Scroll to page 235                                          ?  Chattanooga Glass Company  ?                                                      ?  1905-1907  ?                                                (According to Bill Porter)                         http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/ChattanoogaGlass.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

goodman1966 said:
			
		

> Just picked this up Friday. Root glass co. 1913. Heel embossed Property of Ouachita Coca Cola on one side. Bottling Co. Monroe,La_ Yes a dash. Never seen that before.



Back to page 1 ... 1.  Root Glass2.  19133.  Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co.4.  Monroe, Louisiana5.  *Shoulder Script*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I forgot to mention something unique about the aqua bottle, which is referred to in the seller's description below and can be seen in the attached image. The words Monroe, LA. are located within a "rectangular slug plate." You will recall the amber bottles have oval/round/egg shaped slug plates which are blank. You will also recall this link and information I found regarding blank slug plates where it said ...

Http://www.aquaexplorers.com/Bottleantiquehowmade.htm#.VAvGH8t0y1s "During the proliferation of Mold Blown bottles Slug Plates were developed. A Slug Plate is a reverse embossed metal plate which is inserted into a two or three piece mold. They allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to emboss their own logo on a plate which would be interchanged in a standard bottle mold. The result would be individualized product branding without the expense of creating a unique mold."


Is it possible the aqua bottle's rectangular slug plate was originally blank? I'm not sure either and know very little about that process. But what confuses me most is where it says blank slug plates "allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to *emboss their own logo on a plate ... *"

How in the heck would a bottler emboss their own bottles? Did they have a furnace of some type for melting glass? Or did the glass company keep the plates and use them on generic bottles? Whatever the answer might be, I don't recall ever seeing another straight-sided Coca Cola bottle with a rectangular slug plate.

Here's the eBay seller's description of the aqua bottle I bought ... 

Offered is a selection consisting of one very hard to find Straight Side Louisiana Coca-Cola bottle, 7 1/4" tall, hand blown in mold manufacture style with crown top finish, nice bluish aqua color,embossed in crude script in middle of bottle "Coca-Cola", with "Trade Mark Registered" embossed underneath, and "Monroe, La." embossed on heel in an unusual rectangular slug plate. Bottom embossed "C 1163".

[  Look close at the picture and you will see the outline of the rectangular slug plate  ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I think you were right when you said Ralph Calhoun was going to do his homework before replying to my inquiry. I emailed him on Thursday September 11th, which was five days ago and I have not heard back from him yet. Perhaps he came across this thread and I scared him away. I hope not, but if that's the case and he reads this, I would like to say ... Dear Mr. Calhoun: In the event you have been following this discussion and interpret any said as challenging or offensive, please know this is not my intent and that we are simply seeking answers for some very puzzling questions about Joseph Biedenharn and his purchase of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. With your invaluable assistance we are hoping to set the record straight as to who in fact was the true first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana. Thank you in advance for any information you might have and wish to share with Coca Cola collectors worldwide. Respectfully, Sodapopbob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

To refresh our memories regarding a possible answer to my own inquiry, I wish to reiterate two key factors regarding the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, Louisiana ... 1. This link reference from *1907* which clearly indicates the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was in operation at the time ... http://books.google.com/books?id=zBJHAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA150&dq=ouachita+valley+bottling+works&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G3MGVL-ADIPDggT5s4HABQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ouachita%20valley%20bottling%20works&f=false 2.  The 75th Anniversary bottle which was produced by the Coca Cola Company itself and clearly indicates the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, Louisiana was established in *1907*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Notice the script is slightly different on my two Monroe bottles. I wonder which of the two is the oldest? 1. Amber2. Aqua


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Do you see what I see? Is the script on the aqua bottle "debossed?"


----------



## Bass Assassin

Here's a tidbit of info for you..."Straight-Sided Coke

Of the S-S Cokes, listed below are the basic styles which depend primarily on where the script Coca-Cola logo is located:
center slug plate script - about 1900-1905.
base rectangular slug plate script - about 1900-1905.
mid body script - about 1900-1910.
base script - about 1902-1915.
center diamond script - about 1907-1912. Only from Cumberland MD (amber and clear) and Toledo OH (amber). Photo courtesy of Tim McGuire.
vertical script - about 1905-1910. Only from Milwaukee WI.
vertical arrow script - about 1912-1916. All amber, primarily TN and KY.
circular arrow script - about 1912-1914. All from Jackson TN (amber and aqua).
shoulder script - about 1910-1919.
For each style listed above, you can click to see an example. Note there are also custom styles that do not fall into one of these categories." 
Bob, the above is not written in stone but a pretty good guide to follow


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks. I've seen that reference before but others may not have. Based on your list and various other factors, it appears the aqua bottle might be the earliest of the two. I realize the rectangular slug plate on the aqua bottle is where the words Monroe, LA. are embossed, but its interesting what your list has to say about that area of the bottle ...                                Base rectangular slug plate script - about 1900-1905.


----------



## Bass Assassin

I don't happen to agree with it 100% of the time.. For instance, it dates the center slug plate script bottles  between 1900-1905. I have one and no for sure the company didn't bottle coke until 1906-1907. And previously in this thread it was mentioned a few places where still using the center slug plate script as late ad 1910-1911. So there are exceptions to this list.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I will have to wait until the aqua bottle arrives in about a week to know for certain, but the more I study the seller's images the more I think the script is debossed and not embossed. Look at the shadows and see if you don't agree. If it is debossed, it's the first and only one like it I have ever seen. I spent at least two hours searching for a picture or description of a straight-sided Coca Cola bottle with debossed script and could not find one.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. It's got to be an optical illusion I'm seeing, but will find out for certain soon.


----------



## Bass Assassin

It looks debossed to me


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> It looks debossed to me



It looks debossed to me, too. But because I have never heard of a debossed Coca Cola bottle, I have to seriously question it. If it does turn out to be debossed, then that means ... ??? This link is to a chronology of Coca Cola script signatures and the apparent dates they were used. But it's kind of like the list of straight-sided bottles and hard to say just how accurate it is. The attached image appears to be the closest match, except that it list it as being used in 1898 to 1902.  It's the "fat" tail on the first C that is the most distinguishing feature ...  http://cocacolaloft.blogspot.com/2006/04/coca-cola-script-trademarklogo.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the signatures for ... 1.  19032.  1903-1931


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## SODAPOPBOB

Putting aside the debossed/embossed question for the moment, I have other questions I wish I could find definite answers for. The most important of which is confirmation that Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was in fact the first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana. Even though most of the indicators point in the direction of OVBW being the first bottler, especially when you take into account the amber bottle with OVBW embossed on the base and then combine this with the Coca Cola Company issued anniversary bottle for 1907, but how do we know with certainty that OVBW didn't take over someone else's franchise who gave it up for some reason, thus allowing it to be transferred to OVBW around 1909 or 1910? The main reason I am even thinking along these lines is because I believe the aqua bottle is older than the amber bottle, and yet there is the OVBW Hutchinson bottle to consider, which is clearly marked with OVBW. So my question is this; Why would the OVBW have a Hutchinson bottle with their name on it and then all of a sudden have an aqua Coca Cola bottle without their name on it, and then turn around and have an amber Coca Cola bottle with their name on it again? I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this somewhere but at the present it seems inconsistent that the OVBW would jump from a Hutchinson bottle to an amber bottle and then leave the aqua bottle unmarked. I hope what I'm trying to say here makes sense. If not, then perhaps the following will simplify things ...


Note: The following is based on my belief the Hutchinson bottle is older than the aqua bottle and the aqua bottle is older than the amber bottle. Also please note I am using the 1907 date because that's when the Coca Cola Company says their first franchised bottler was established in Monroe, Louisiana, thus indicating that neither the aqua bottle nor the amber bottle can date to any earlier than 1907. I'm using 1912 as the cut-off date because that's when Biedenharn came along and changed the name to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co.

1.  Hutchinson Bottle ~ Circa 1900? to 1905? ..............(Marked with OVBW)
2.  Aqua Bottle ~ Circa 1907 to 1912  ........................(Not marked with OVBW)
3.  Amber Bottle ~ Circa 1907 to 1912 .......................(Marked with OVBW)

To rephrase my main question(s) ...

*If the aqua bottle is a OVBW bottle, then why isn't it marked as such but the Hutchinson and amber bottles are? And if the aqua bottle isn't a OVBW bottle, then who was it made for? *


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## Bass Assassin

I thought about that as well Bob. #1 Can't understand why a bottler would have their name on bottles, then not have their name ,then have it again on the bottles. #2 what if the amber bottles are older and the aqua is the first bottle Biedenharn used when he bought OVBW and left off the name intentionally. #3 its still possible that the aqua was bottled by another company (such as Fidelity). ... You have to ask the question at hand.  " why was the bottler's name left off the aqua bottle?"  Take into consideration that coca cola was likely the number 1 seller and any bottler in their right mind would WANT their name associated with the brand. So, for me the most logical 2 answers are: A. They didn't want to spend the extra money or B. Biedenharn intentionally did this because he knew he was going to change the name and didn't want the coca cola brand associated with OVBW any longer.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I with you to a certain point, but what about the indicator's that point to mid-body script bottles being older than base-script bottles? I realize this information is not etched in stone and there are exceptions to every rule, but even with this said I can't help but wonder.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because the aqua bottle is marked on the base with *C 1163*, I believe the information from the link I posted earlier and these two images from the link are possibly our best clues as to even approximating the date of the aqua bottle. I realize the text uses the word "speculation" which obviously implies a measure of doubt as to whether the mark was that of Chattanooga Glass or the Carolina Glass Company, but irregardless of that the dates they use suggest that any Coca Cola bottle marked with C 1163 is pretty dang early and possibly no later than about 1907  ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I am of the current opinion the aqua bottle is pre-1910 and pre-Biedenharn


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## Bass Assassin

I am going to cough up $5.00 and go by the museum on my way home just to see their bottles. I will try to get photos but keep in mind the bottles are in a showcase with mirrored backing and its hard to get my phone camera to focus.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I am going to cough up $5.00 and go by the museum on my way home just to see their bottles. I will try to get photos but keep in mind the bottles are in a showcase with mirrored backing and its hard to get my phone camera to focus.


 Super-duper!  Ask them to gently remove the bottles from the case and set them on top for your pictures. I bet if you say "please" they'll do it for you.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I'm confident we can eliminate *Fidelity Bottling Works *as being a Coca Cola bottler. Remember, the Monroe Biedenharn Museum book I have says "the Biedenharn Candy Company bought a small Coca-Cola bottling plant in Monroe, Louisiana." Because the 1913-1914 Directory pictured below shows that the Fidelity Bottling Works was still in operation at the time, then it couldn't have been the "small Coca-Cola bottling company" that Biedenharn purchased. Plus, in the same 1913-1914 Directory it list the Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I don't have the information at my fingertips, but I have seen references for Fidelity Bottling Works as late as *1918*.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Monroe, Louisiana Directory *1913-1914*


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## SODAPOPBOB

According to Google Earth, 106 Adams Street is currently a vacant lot ... 1.  Birds-eye view2.  Street View from the opposite direction


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## SODAPOPBOB

We can safely eliminate Monroe Bottling Works as well because they were still in operation at least as late as 1919 which is when this ad is from ... The Monroe Journal ~ June 13, 1919


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## SODAPOPBOB

To clarify what I mean by "eliminating" Monroe Bottling Works, I mean they couldn't have been the "small Coca-Cola bottling company" that Biedenharn purchased in 1912. I looked at ads for Monroe Bottling Works that go back as far as 1906 and not in any of them did it show where they ever bottled Coca Cola.


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## SODAPOPBOB

There was also a "*City Bottling Works*" in Monroe but the only readily available listing I can find for them is from the Hutchbook website. It appears they might not have been in operation in the 20th century, but I could be wrong. This list shows all of the bottlers from Monroe that used Hutchinson bottles ... http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottle%20Directory/Documents/USA-LA-Hutches.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB

I could be totally wrong, but it appears the "Ouachita Valley Bottling Works" was the small Coca Cola bottling company that Biedenharn purchased in 1912. Especially when you take into account that starting in 1913 Joseph Renwick all of a sudden starts being listed as a "Dairymen" in every newspapers and directory. Which brings us back to the aqua bottle! Who else do we know of that was bottling Coca Cola in Monroe between about 1907 and 1911 besides Ouachita Valley Bottling Works?


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## Bass Assassin

I went by the museum as planned. When i went inside, i explained to the lady that i didn't really want the tour because i had been there a year earlier. I told her i just wanted to see the bottles on display and take a few photographs. She was very kind and told me i didn't have to pay and i could even get a nickel coke! I told her i could come up with a nickel but when i continued to offer to pay the admission she would not take my money. Moving on, i was disappointed there was not a single Biedenharn script coca cola Monroe bottle to be found. There was 1 Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Co bottle but it was in block letters and was not an actual coca cola bottle. The bottles you see in the few photographs i took were all Vicksburg bottles. There was one large bottle in the center that was a Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle in slug plate and on the back it read This Bottle Not To Be Sold. Not sure what the capacity was but  it was much larger than the others. On the bottom it was embossed NPC & Co. I'll show that bottle first then the Vicksburg bottles and also an early delivery truck and an early Dixie press,  cork and seal bottling machine ( from the 20's - 30's) hard to focus on the bottles due to the mirror backing in the display. Sorry Bob, they would not remove the bottles.


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## Bass Assassin

Vicksburg bottles


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## Bass Assassin

Delivery truck and machine.


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## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB
Super Member

Re: Monroe La. Straight side coke ! 5 hours ago (permalink)
P.S.

I am of the current opinion the aqua bottle is pre-1910 and pre-Biedenharn
Helpful Report AbuseForward  Quote   #14

I am in agreement with this statement but i'm not completely on board with the aqua being older than our 2 amber bottles. It's going to take some convincing to sway me. I can be stubborn


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark

Fantastico! I'm glad to see you made it to the museum. It puts a little-bit of reality into things instead of just wandering around aimlessly on the Internet. Its too bad they didn't have more bottles for you to examine - maybe you should donate your amber bottle so they would have at least one example of a Coca Cola bottle from Monroe. Just kidding of course about donating your bottle. I doubt I would let go of mine even if they offered me $200 for it. By the way, its no fair that you got to go to a museum today when all I was able to accomplish  was go to the store for some groceries - and the store I'm referring to is 50 miles away! But I did have a Bobcat run out in front of me while I was driving so I guess that's something.  

As for convincing you that my aqua bottle is older than the amber bottles, try this on for size ...

If you re-read and closely study the information I posted about the C 1163 mark, you will see where neither the Bottle Research Group nor Bill Ported expressed any doubts about the mark dating between 1903 and 1907. The only thing they questioned was whether the mark belonged to the Chattanooga Glass Company or the Carolina Glass Company. As for the date range, they seemed to be in total agreement about that with the chart showing a date of 1903 to circa 1905 and Bill Porter coming up with circa 1905 to 1907. Notice that no one attributed a date later than 1905-1907. I've read many of Bill Lockhart's articles and he often uses the term "Empirical Evidence." That means he did an actual  hands-on examination of a particular bottle and that his findings were factual and not second hand. The reason I mention this is because if Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter both agree about something such as the date range of this-or-that bottle or bottle mark, you can take it to the bank they did their homework first. And when you combine their information with the 75th Anniversary bottle, which denotes a start-up date for Monroe as 1907, then I am compelled to believe that my aqua bottle dates no later than 1907 as well. As for the amber bottles, the best guess I can come up with at the moment is Circa 1908 to 1911.

Here's the link for the Chattanooga Glass article so you won't have to click back and find it ...

Http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/ChattanoogaGlass.PDF


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## Bass Assassin

Ok, you've convinced me. Now, to find another bottle fron Monroe to really confused things. I shall be doing some local privy digging this winter downtown if i can get some permission!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark More bottles are always more better. I hope you find a truckload of them. As to which of the Monroe bottlers used the aqua Coca Cola bottle, there were only four local bottlers I am aware of that were in operation in Monroe during the period from around 1900 to 1910. If I am missing any, please let me know. The ones I am aware of are ... 1.  City Bottling Works2.  Fidelity Bottling Works3.  Monroe Bottling Works4.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Because we know Joseph Biedenharn purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, which was listed in the 1912-1913 Directory as being a bottler of Coca Cola, then it seems logical that the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was the only bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe prior to Biedenharn's arrival. And because we know the Fidelity and Monroe Bottling Works were still in operation after Biedenharn's arrival, then that only leaves the City Bottling Works as a possible candidate as a Coca Cola bottler prior to when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works secured the franchise. But the tricky part about the City Bottling Works is, I can't find any specific dates for when they were in operation other than they used a Hutchinson bottle at some point. If you have any information pertaining to the City Bottling Works, please let us know. If it turns out they were not in operation around 1907, then I'd say that points the finger directly at Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as the origin of the aqua Coca Cola bottle. Who else could it possibly have belonged to?


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, if you see addresses for city bottling works and monroe bottle works please list them, i would like to know where they were located. I have a friend that has a monroe bottling works hutchinson that i estimated to date about toc. I agree with your assessment that the aqua you bought was likely a ouachita valley bottling works bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Will do about the addresses ... that is just as soon as I get back from my twice-monthly poker game which I'm just heading out the door to attend. In the meantime ... While searching for anything related to the City Bottling Works I found this article which is the earliest date in any of the Monroe newspaper archives that use the word "*Bottling*" It doesn't actually say "Bottler" but I'm assuming that's what George C. Enssminger was gearing up for. I did a quick search for Mr. Enssminger and the only thing I found so far was that he was born in 1837 and was in the restaurant business in Monroe during the late 1800s. But whether he was the very first soda bottler in Monroe or not, I do not know. Notice at the bottom of the article where they use a play on words and say "Fizzician" instead of "Physician" ... From ... The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ *May 28, 1880*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark

*City Bottling Works*

The one and only reference I can find for this company is from the Hutchbook website I posted earlier. All I know about them is they produced a Hutchinson bottle at some point.


*Monroe Bottling Works*

1.  1912 Monroe Directory with address @ ... *115 South 8th Street*
     (Notice Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company is not listed)

2.   Google Earth view of location, but not sure which corner they were on.

3.   Monroe News-Star June 13, 1919  ~  T. J. Price Proprietor.

      I searched but could not find anything specific about T.J. Price. I need a first name.

     I have seen pictures of their Hutch and Crown bottles, all of which have a large "P" on the
     base. I assume the "P" stands for "Price"


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. My aqua/teal bottle arrived yesterday and will post some pictures and information this afternoon.


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## Bass Assassin

Thanks so much for your help. Your research is very much appreciated. Can't wait to see some photos of what is obviously one of the first coca cola bottles filled in Monroe,LA


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks to you as well! We must be on the same page again because I was just getting ready to post some pictures and info. I'm still working on the info part, but will start with this picture of both bottles together. I'm not sure whether to call them cousins or Lil' Brother / Big Brother. But whatever we call them, they are obviously different in many respects. Earlier I referred to the color of the aqua bottle as aqua/teal. I did this to emphasize that the color is a true bluish tone and not any shade of green. Sometimes greenish bottles are described as aqua - but not in this case. I used natural sunlight and hope I captured the true beauty of both bottles. And, yes ... the amber bottle is 1/2" inch taller than the aqua bottle. But at the base they are identical and both measure exactly 2 1/4" in diameter. By the way, the aqua bottle is *embossed *and not debossed. Except the embossing on the aqua bottle is about half the thickness of the embossing on the amber bottle.    I will be posting more pictures and information shortly. In the meantime I hope everyone enjoys this one ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a picture of the neck. The red arrow indicates where the seam stops. This is a BIM bottle(Blown In a Mold) ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a close up of the heel slug-plate where MONROE, LA is embossed. It is impossible for me to know whether the lettered embossing was done at the glass factory or whether it's one of those "Do-it-yourself" deals we read about.


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's my new best friend all by himself ... ( I will be posting a full description and evaluation shortly )


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## SODAPOPBOB

This is the same format I used for the amber bottle except this time it is for the aqua bottle ... 
My aqua Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola bottle arrived yesterday and after closely examining it discovered the following ...

*Features:*

1.    Aqua/teal glass 
2.    7 1/4" inches tall.
3.    Six or Seven ounces? (Not sure but appears to be of less contents than the amber bottle)
4.    BIM = Blown In Mold - I'm not certain if the lip is applied but it appears to be. 
5.    Mold Seam stops abruptly just below the neck.
6.    Faint evidence of hand-tooled finish around neck.
7.    Textured glass with numerous bubbles.
8.    Base embossed C 1163. The C either stands for the Chattanooga Glass Co. or the Carolina       Glass Co. According to the Bottle Research group the mark indicates a date of Circa 1903       to 1907. 
9.    Not a Root Glass Company bottle.
10.  Embossed in mid-body with old-school script *Coca Cola*
11.  Debossed rectangular slug-plate on lower body and embossed with MONROE, LA.
12.  No other embossing.

*Condition:*

1.   The bottle appears to have been "Dug"
2.   Faint cloudiness to glass and some oxidation.
3.   Various minor pings, scratches, flea-bites.
4.   No cracks but a few chips here and there. The worst of which is on the back and pinky size. 
5.   No case-ware.
6.    Overall condition on a scale of 1 to 10 is a *5.0  *( I gave the amber bottle a *6.5 *)

*Estimated Value:*

1.   Still to be determine but minimum of $100.00. Condition is mid-grade but rarity could be high.

*Year Made:*

Not 100% certain but based on the Bottle Research Group and Bill Porter = *Circa 1907* 

*Overall Evaluation:*

I am of the opinion the bottle was made by the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in Monroe, Louisiana prior to Joseph Biedenharn's arrival in circa 1911. I'm not certain exactly what the Biedenharn Museum and other sources claim, but I feel the bottle and it's accompanying accounts confirm the bottle and the bottler were the first ever in Monroe, Louisiana. Because of the controversy associated with Joseph Biedenharn and his bottling legacy, I consider this bottle to be of historical interest to collectors and historians alike.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. This might come as a surprise to some of you, but the truth is I only own *two *straight-sided Coca Cola bottles. And I bet you can guess where these *two *bottles are from. I have about 500 various acl soda bottles but have never purchased any straight-sided Coca Cola bottles until now. The main reason I purchased these two bottles is because of the Joseph Biedenharn connection and also to help set the record straight in that Joseph Renwick and not Joseph Biedenharn was the first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, i am "digging" the color. Obviously it was dug in this area and as to who dug it we will probably never know. Great synopsis and i will admit i have never seen one like it. So in the past 2 weeks i have been introduced to 2 different straight side style coca cola bottles from my home town thanks to you...I'm quite sure your aqua bottle does have an applied top by the way.... I suppose this will likely be the near end of this thread. It has been a real pleasure working with you and i hope in the future i can find another bottle that will ruin everything. Just kidding!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I hope in the future i can find another bottle that will ruin everything. Just kidding!



                                                    Okey-dokey  []                   Then maybe you can start by telling me what you know about ...                         *The Consolidated Ice Company & Bottling Works* *                                    Monroe and Shreveport, Louisiana* *                                              Ed Ball ~ Proprietor* *                               Bottlers of Soda Water, Ginger Ale, Etc.* 1890


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## SODAPOPBOB

( In all seriousness )                                                 Mitch   a.k.a. goodman1966                                                                 and ...                                                  Mark   a.k.a. Bass Assassin Thanks to you both for allowing me to bombard this thread as I so often do. But I guess that's just my nature. I'm like a bloodhound and when I get on the scent-trail of something that interest me I just keep chasing after it until it's treed. I am presently working on a timeline chronology involving Joseph Renwick and the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and hope to have it completed in a few days. I still have not heard back from Ralph Calhoun.  If I don't hear from him soon I plan to do a follow up and see what's what.  Bob


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## Bass Assassin

While doing some research on this thread i remember stumbling across Consolidated Ice Co. but i can't recall what it said or where I saw it. What's the scoop on them? Where they located in Monroe and Shreveport? Mitch might know something about them. I'm all in on more information about Joe Renwick and looking forward to what you can share. I don't really believe Calhoun is going to respond to you. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he was following this thread.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> While doing some research on this thread i remember stumbling across Consolidated Ice Co. but i can't recall what it said or where I saw it. What's the scoop on them? Where they located in Monroe and Shreveport? Mitch might know something about them.



Here's where I found the reference for the Consolidated Ice Company. I was just curious about them more than anything else and wondered if there were any Monroe bottles marked as such? I don't plan to unleash my bloodhounds on them - although I might consider doing that with Ralph Calhoun if we don't eventually hear from him. I'm certain that Ralph is a straight-up kind of guy and seriously doubt that anything posted on this thread would actually offend him. I bet he's just doing his homework in order to *help us out*. At least that's what I would like to think.                                                                  Meet ... Ed Ball                                                        *Louisiana Memoirs ~ 1890* *http://books.google.com/books?id=ZucxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=Ed+Ball+Bottling+Monroe+louisiana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PNAcVNDxHIKZyAT7zoLADA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ed%20Ball%20Bottling%20Monroe%20louisiana&f=false*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark and Mitch

Here's a little information about Consolidated Ice. Just thought you might like to know in case they did produce a marked bottle. I don't intend to research this one but please let us know if there are any bottles by this company and what they look like. I did a quick image search but didn't find anything.    

*Monroe, Louisiana Tokens*

THE / CONSOLIDATED / ICE CO.
Good For / 5 / Cents / In Ice
The Consolidated Ice Company was located at the corner of Walnut and Breard. It operated from 1888 until about 1930.

http://www.louisiana-trade-tokens.com/articles/monroe-louisiana-tokens.html


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## sandchip

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Here's a close up of the heel slug-plate where MONROE, LA is embossed. It is impossible for me to know whether the lettered embossing was done at the glass factory or whether it's *one of those "Do-it-yourself" deals we read about.*



What do you mean?


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## SODAPOPBOB

sandchip said:
			
		

> SODAPOPBOB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a close up of the heel slug-plate where MONROE, LA is embossed. It is impossible for me to know whether the lettered embossing was done at the glass factory or whether it's *one of those "Do-it-yourself" deals we read about.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
Click to expand...



sandchip / Jimbo

When the amber Coca Cola bottle turned up it had what the seller described as a round "blank slug plate" on the back. (See attached image). I am familiar with bottle making and slug plates in general but I had never heard of a blank slug plate. So I did a little research and posted the (blue) information on Page 8 Post #154 which I posting here again. When I first researched the slug plate aspect I thought it was saying the bottler received the bottles with the blank slug plates from the glass factory and then added his own embossed name to the bottle, which I referred to in the post you quoted as a "Do-it-yourself" bottle in that the bottler was somehow able to emboss/melt/apply his own information onto the bottle. But now that I have had more time to look into this I see where my interpretation was incorrect. In the blue paragraph below where it says "They allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to emboss their own logo on a plate which would be interchanged in a standard bottle mold," doesn't mean that the bottler embossed his own bottle, but means the glass factory kept personalized slug plates on file for various bottlers so that all the glass factory had to do was insert the personalized slug plate into the bottles being ordered, which was a lot cheaper for the bottler than to have an entire "customized" mold made. 

And because the aqua bottle had the words "MONROE, LA." in a rectangular slug plate, I suspected the embossing might have been done by the bottler and not the glass factory, which I now know was not the case.  

As it stands now, I still don't know for certain what a *blank slug plate *was intended for but hope to find out eventually.  

The following links include everything about glass making and molds that a person needs to fully understand the process. Most of the information was compiled by the Bottle Research Group who also did the article about the C 1163 mark on the aqua bottle.     


Http://www.aquaexplorers.com/Bottleantiquehowmade.htm#.VAvGH8t0y1s

During the proliferation of Mold Blown bottles Slug Plates were developed. A Slug Plate is a reverse embossed metal plate which is inserted into a two or three piece mold. They allowed smaller manufacturers and local businesses to emboss their own logo on a plate which would be interchanged in a standard bottle mold. The result would be individualized product branding without the expense of creating a unique mold.


Glass Making Tudor


http://www.sha.org/bottle/glassmaking.htm


Slug Plate Definition

http://www.sha.org/bottle/morphology.htm


Plate and Plate Molds Detail

http://www.sha.org/bottle/glassmaking.htm#Plates


More Plate and Plate Mold Information

http://www.sha.org/bottle/body.htm#Plates

The plates were inserted in the mold within the area outlined by the embossed box. The lettering inside the box is from the plate, but the box itself was engraved into the mold surface. This is called a "ridge slug plate" in the collector world.

Advanced Reading ~ The whole story

http://www.wheatonarts.org/museumamericanglass/pastexhibitions/90-99/1990outofthemold/


"Another important improvement in bottle molds was patented by Gustavus Storm of Philadelphia in 1875. He patented the design of a removable plate that could be engraved with personalized lettering. The bottle shape stayed the same but the plates could be changed for different customers. The interchangeable plate attached to the mold with a bolt in a manner almost identical to that used in the repair of the Millfora flask. The process for using removable plates had been used in molds for some time; Storm's patent made it more convenient. An example of an interchangeable plate or slug plate mold is the cylindrical jar with opening for an oval lettering plate."


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm not certain but I do not think bottles with blank slug plates were "in stock" bottles that were "re-fired" to apply/emboss an individual bottler's name and information on them. But I could be wrong about this. More research is required.


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## Bass Assassin

I may be wrong but i believe this is how it worked.. You ordered that particular style of bottle and you could have your logo made up on a slug plate that was interchangeable. If you didn't want to pay the extra money for a personalized bottle, they either inserted a blank plate to fill the void in the mold or they did not insert a blank plate. The side form of the mold where the blank plate would normally fit left the depression sometimes seen. So i don't know if a blank plate left that depression or no plate at all


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## iggyworf

Thanx all you guys, I enjoyed this thread alot. I have said before my girlfriend collects coca cola and she only has 3 SS cokes.Keep searching for more!!!


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## SODAPOPBOB

I think we are getting closer and closer to understanding the blank slug plate mystery. The information on this link doesn't focus specifically on the blanks, but it is worded in such a manner that its easy to visualize what's being said about slug plates and molds in general. http://www.cjow.com/archive/article.php?month=11&a=11Molds%20Molds%20and%20More%20Molds.htm&year=2003 Notice in the first image, which is a mid-body script Coca Cola bottle from Fort Valley, Georgia, that it has a rectangular slug plate like that in the accompanying image of my aqua Monroe bottle. The similarity between the two bottles suggest the practice of using rectangular slug plate embossing must have been somewhat common, but I must confess I am currently only aware of two examples of this - the Monroe bottle and now the Fort Valley bottle, but I'm sure that other example exist and can be found if we look long enough. Of course, none of this actually answers the question about the blanks, but, as I said, I think we're getting closer. I'm guessing the Fort Valley bottle and the Monroe bottle are from the same time period.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*                                                                       Bingo!* If the information on this link doesn't have the answers to many of our questions, then I suspect nothing will. I'm still reading it myself and trying to digest everything it contains, but so far it's a pot of gold regarding early Coca Cola bottles. And guess who the authors are - none other than our researching buddies Bill Porter and Bill Lockhart. We'll compare notes later after everyone has had a chance to read it.                 http://www.fohbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/DatingEarlyCocaColaBottles.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If after reading the article there is information you choose to quote from, please mention the page number and paragraph heading or column. That way when we go back to view it for ourselves we won't have to spend a bunch of time scrolling around looking for the quote and/or information you are referring to.  Thanks


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. I recommend printing the article if possible. That way it can be read at your leisure such as during commercials of NFL football games. If they didn't want us to be able to print it they wouldn't have provided the option that pops up near the bottom of the pages. Plus, printing allows you to make notations such as I have already done on several of the pages. One notation we'll discuss later is about the "Flat-footed Tails" (Hmm, it seems like we learn a new word or term everyday) []


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## SODAPOPBOB

If you read Bill Porter's article about early Coca Cola bottles and are *confused* about some or all of the information it contains, don't feel like the Lone Ranger because I read it three times and I'm still scratching my head about much it. I realize now that to try and understand every part of it in even three readings is beyond my comprehension and that I need to dissect into sections and focus on one aspect at a time. Because this thread is about Monroe, Louisiana bottles and how to properly date them, I plan to try and use Bill's findings and apply it to those bottles only. All I can say at this juncture is, based on the information from the article, I am still of the opinion the aqua Monroe bottle is earlier than the amber bottle. But as to which glass company made the aqua and amber bottles, well, it appears the jury is still out on that question. (I'll be back)


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## Bass Assassin

I thought it was just me. There is a ton of information in the 12 pages but its not in any king of order and its very confusing. You may have to take your bottles one at a time and find the information that is relevant to that particular bottle.


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## SODAPOPBOB

There is one riddle in particular about my *aqua *Monroe bottle with the *C 1163 *on the base that I'm trying to unravel but need some help. At the top of the last column on Page 11 of Bill Porter's article it states (in part) ...

"... I have noticed that no Whitehead territory bottles have base numbers preceded by a "C."

And in Cecil Munsey's book (as well as other accounts) we find where it states (in part) ...

"Thomas selected the heavily populated eastern and Middle Atlantic states and the Pacific coast. That left Whitehead with the warmer Southeast and Southwest and the Middle West."

I have tried to find a breakdown of exactly which states Benjamin Thomas and Joseph Whitehead each ended up with but so far have only found what is stated above. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Louisiana is a "Southeast" state and should have been part of Whitehead's territory. And yet, Bill Porter says there are no Whitehead territory bottles with the "C" codes followed by a four-digit number. 

Questions:

1.  Who had the northern Louisiana territory?  Thomas or Whitehead?

2.  If northern Louisiana was in fact part of Whitehead's territory, does this mean that my aqua bottle with C 1163 on the base is an exception to Bill Porter's findings and possibly a first known example of a Whitehead bottle with the "C" mark?

3.  Or am I misunderstanding what Bill Porter is saying? 

Note:  Thomas and Whitehead first established themselves as Coca Cola bottlers in 1899 and then split ways and established their respective territories starting in 1900.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Almost every account I've read about Thomas and Whitehead Coca Cola bottles state ... 1.  Thomas preferred *amber *bottles.2.  Whitehead preferred *clear, green,* or *aqua *bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ...

*Joseph Brown Whitehead*

Born:  1864
Died:  1906 (At the age of 42)

http://jbwhitehead.org/about-the-foundation/joseph-b-whitehead/

Brief Coca Cola "Franchise" bottling history ...

http://www.sodapopbottles.com/coca-cola-bottling-plant-history.html


Because Whitehead died before my circa 1907 aqua bottle was made, I'm not sure it would be considered a true "Whitehead Territory" bottle. But even with that said, it likely was part of the franchise that Whitehead and his partner John T. Lupton established around 1903 which they called the "Dixie Coca Cola Bottling Company." I'm not certain but pretty sure now that most if not all of Louisiana was originally a part of the Whitehead/Luption/Dixie bottling franchise. The problem is, I don't know if Bill Porter was referring to 1900 to 1906 Whitehead bottles (while Whitehead was still alive) or bottles produced later under Lupton's leadership, or possibly both time periods? But irregardless of which exact time period Bill Porter was referring to, it appears I have an ...

Aqua, Center-script, circa 1907, Monroe, Louisiana straight-sided Coca Cola bottle marked with C 1163 on the base that *might *be considered a "Whitehead Territory" bottle. And *if *it is a Whitehead bottle, it *might *be the first one known that has the "C" mark on it. ??? 

But even if it does turn out to be the first known Whitehead bottle with a "C" mark on it, what does that add to the bottle, if anything? Does it make it rarer - more valuable - more interesting, or what? I don't know either but it's fun to wonder about.

Another thing to wonder about is ...

If Whitehead preferred clear, green, and aqua bottles, and Thomas preferred amber bottles, then how is it that an aqua and an amber bottle came from the same town (Monroe) during the same time period? 

[ Joseph B. Whitehead ]


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## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ... *Joseph Renwick* (Coming Soon)


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## Bass Assassin

If Whitehead preferred clear, green, and aqua bottles, and Thomas preferred amber bottles, then how is it that an aqua and an amber bottle came from the same town (Monroe) during the same time period?



This is the same question i had in mind


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## SODAPOPBOB

I heard from Ralph Calhoun this morning and will tell you more about that later. In the meantime ... 
I *wonder *why this amber Coca Cola bottle from New Orleans, Louisiana has a mark on the base "similar" to the mark on the base of my aqua bottle?

Monroe aqua marked w/ C 1163

New Orleans amber marked w/ A.B. Co. 1197 4 


Currently on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Coca-Cola-Bottle-from-New-Orleans-Louisiana-Amber-Brown-Straight-Side-/201138701352


A.B. CO.

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/

A.B.CO ... American Bottle Company (1905-1929). Chicago, Illinois (office – 1905-1916); Toledo, Ohio (office – 1916-1929).  Glass plants were located at Streator, Illinois;  Newark, Ohio;  Belleville, Illinois;  Massillon, Ohio  &  Wooster, Ohio.  The American Bottle Company was purchased by Owens Bottle Machine Company in 1916 (with some of the plants being closed soon afterwards) but the Streator and Newark plants continued to operate under the American Bottle Co. Name until 1929, when they became part of the merger that resulted in Owens-Illinois Glass Company. (For Streator and Newark plant marks from 1916 to 1929, see “17N” and “16S” entries). Most, if not all, of the “AB”, “AB CO.” and “A.B.CO.” marked bottles are believed to date between 1905 and 1916. However, it is possible that some bottles with these markings _might_ date between 1916 and 1929, but, if so, could only have been made at either the Streator or Newark plants.  See also “AB (letters connected)” page, here.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The message I received from Ralph Calhoun this morning said he and the museum curator, Daniel, are still working on answering my questions and will get back to me as soon as they were done. But when that will be I do not know.


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## SODAPOPBOB

* Joseph Renwick Chronology/Timeline*

           ( I have never seen a middle name for Joseph and suspect he didn't have one )

                    ( His father was Wiley Polk Renwick ~ Abbreviated here as W.P. )

*1840  *Wiley Polk Renwick born August 15, 1840 ~ Georgia
*1861  *W.P. Renwick Joins Confederate army during the Civil War
*1863  *W.P. Renwick captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, 1863 ~ Lieutenant
*1868  *Joseph Renwick born July 4, 1868 ~ Louisiana
            (Joseph was born five years to the day after his father was captured at Vicksburg)
*1870  *W.P. listed in census as retail grocer
*1873  *W.P. listed as river boat agent 
*1881  *W.P. listed as Monroe city councilmen
*1887  *Joseph employed as firewood supplier for Trousdale Brothers Grocery
*1888  *Joseph self? employed? as firewood supplier
*1900  *Joseph listed in census as cotton buyer
*1906  *Earliest known listing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1910  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as president of Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1912  *Monroe Directory list Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as bottler of Coca Cola
*1912  *Joseph Renwick sells Ouachita Valley Bottling works to Joseph Biedenharn
*1913  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as a dairymen ~ Wildwood Farm Dairy
*1928  *Wiley Polk Renwick died April 27, 1928 ~ 88 years old
*1930s *Joseph Renwick dairymen and involved in Monroe civic affairs including school board
*1942  *Joseph Renwick died April 24, 1942 ~ 73 Years old


Additional dates of interest  ...

*1866  *Joseph Biedenharn born
*1894  *Joseph Biedenharn bottles Coca Cola in Vicksburg, Mississippi and considered first
*1912  *Joseph Biedenharn changes company name to Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company

*Circa 1907  *Estimated date when aqua Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola bottle produced
*Circa 1908-1910  *Estimated date when amber O.V.B.W. Coca Cola bottle produced


Attachments ...

1.  Joseph Renwick O.V.B.W. Coca Cola bottle
2.  Joseph Renwick milk bottle cap


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. *1982  *Coca Cola Company issues 75th Anniversary bottle for Monroe, LA. = Established in *1907  *


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. My last post caused this thread to hit the *5,800 Views* mark! Because of this, I wish to acknowledge, thank, and congratulate goodman1966 for bringing this subject to our attention in the first place. Appreciation is also shared with Bass Assassin for his invaluable contributions. I just hope Ralph Calhoun, director of the Monroe, Louisiana Biedenharn museum, comes up with something that will add even more information to this most interesting topic of discussion. Plus, we still need to figure out what the C 1163 and 1197 4 numbers mean and if they are in some way related. I will be working on that as time allows and hope to find the answer. I will post what Ralph Calhoun has to say just as soon as I hear back from him.


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## SODAPOPBOB

I might never make sense of all of the information that Bill Porter included in his article, but one thing of interest I discovered is found in the last paragraph of the last column on page 11 where he says ... "Both firms used a unique "signature" [script] Coca Cola trademark, with a large "C" in "Coca" and a smaller, *slanted* "C" in "Cola" (Figure 43)." Even though I haven't figured out exactly what this implies, I can tell you for certain that ... 1.  My aqua bottle has a *slanted *"C" in "Cola" 2.  My amber bottle has a *vertical *(non slanted) "C" in "Cola"


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## SODAPOPBOB

Pics ... 1.  Aqua Bottle ~ Slanted C in Cola2.  Amber Bottle ~ Vertical C in Cola


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## Bass Assassin

All descriptions lead to the aqua being one of their bottles. Don't know who made the amber


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> one of their bottles.



One of *who's *bottles?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Oh-oh! Look what I just found!  [:-] From ... The American Bottler ~ *1908* *W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works ~ J. Renwick ~ Monroe, Louisiana* This could change things dramatically, especially if it can be confirmed that Wa****a Bottling Works bottled Coca Cola. Because of the 1908 date, my aqua bottle could very easily be a Wa****a Bottling Works bottle and not a Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Bottle. I can't believe I accidently found this while looking for something else. Oh my gosh, does this mean we have to start from square one again? And no, I did not get this information from Ralph Calhoun! I have not heard from him since yesterday and even then he did not share any information with me. I found this while searching for varied information about Louisiana bottlers in general and not Monroe in particular. Check it out ...  http://books.google.com/books?id=NZRRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA36&lpg=RA5-PA36&dq=renwick+monroe+louisiana&source=bl&ots=aOTROv8VjT&sig=XQUOqymz4rpqzTWXisI7mRPRh78&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bBIiVLK-MYyOyASThYDQCw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwBDjIAQ#v=onepage&q=renwick%20monroe%20louisiana&f=false Iddy-biddy snippet ~ I guess its true what they say about good things coming in small packages. Hey, Mark Didn't we briefly discuss W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works earlier?  I remember the spelling problem like now but not much else.


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## SODAPOPBOB

In answer to my own question, the discussion about W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works can be found on Page 4 starting with Mark's Post # 75 and continues to Post #79. But for some reason we just glossed over the subject and never got back to it. And we never did determine for certain if Joseph Renwick operated both Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works at the same time. One explanation might be because that was before I purchased the aqua bottle with no bottler information on it. And then later, after I got the aqua bottle, we wondered why Ouachita Valley Bottling Works had a Hutchinson bottle, jumped over the aqua bottle without their name on it, and then had an amber bottle with their name on it once again. Don't feel like the Lone Ranger if you find this confusing because at the moment I feel like Tonto, which means something akin to "Dumb Head" in Spanish. Anyhoo, now I'm thinking the aqua bottle is a W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works bottle and not a Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle. If this is true, it still makes Joseph Renwick the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, but changes the first "bottling company" to that of W-a-s-a-i-t-a Bottling Works. Of course we still have to find a confirmed connection to "prove" this claim. What say the rest of you? W-a-s-h-i-t-a or Ouachita Valley as the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe, La.? Note:  From this point forward let's use W.B.W. instead of that other way of spelling it, which is a pain in the you-know-what!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Next Question: Are there *any *bottles from Monroe marked W.B.W? Or might all of the W.B.W. bottles be unmarked?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... The absolute only reference I can find for W.B.W. is the one in the 1908 American Bottler. Nor can I find a single bottle, picture or otherwise, that's marked with W.B.W. So I guess its up to you Louisiana boys to solve this one because I'm totally stumped!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Because I think its important to confirm where I got the 1906-1907 dates for the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, I managed to download/print/scan/save this coal document. I posted a link to it earlier but this time we will be able to view it as it was intended. I won't comment other than to let you read it for yourself. [ Attachments ] 1.  Cover page of Document2.  Page 150 of Document3.  From 1912 Monroe Directory to confirm they did sell coal over the years


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the July 15, 1908 issue of The American Bottler listing for W.B.W. ... 1.  Cover Page (Upper portion to confirm date)2.  Page 36h      Red arrow = W.B.W. ~ J. Renwick ~ Monroe, La.     Red line = J. Renwick (Applying for membership into the Louisiana Bottlers' Association)


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## SODAPOPBOB

I received the following information from Ralph Calhoun this morning. I sent him a thank you reply with a picture of the amber bottle but I did not go into detail about our other findings and told him I will get back to him later with more pictures and more information. The one thing of particular interest that Ralph touched on is the possibility that Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe as early as 1904, and possibly even earlier. I'm not sure we they got that information but it will be interesting if they eventually find a date to support it. Anyway, here's the message ... 

                                                             ~ * ~

This is from our curator, Daniel Walters. Hope it helps. If you are writing an article or if you find more information please share it with us. Also If you get to Monroe let us know and we'll try to meet you and give you a special tour. Joseph Biedenharn purchased the Monroe Coca-Cola Bottling plant from his brothers in 1913.  Albert was the original manager for a short time before returning to Vicksburg and ultimately moving to San Antonio. The Biedenharn Brothers purchased the Monroe plant in February 1912 from Mr. Joe Renwick. At the time of purchase it was Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and Joe Biedenharn renamed it Ouachita Coca-Cola Bottling Company/ Ouachita Candy Company and later relocated the business from Washington Street to Walnut Street (1920). It does appear that it was an existing Coca-Cola bottling plant for at least a short time prior to the Biedenharn purchase. Possibly 1906/1907 and may go back to 1904 (still looking)It is highly likely that 1904 was the year of original establishment of Coca Cola in Monroe, but even that is debated (possibly earlier than 1904).  I am still looking for a more conclusive answer on that because I have very little information before 1912.  It is highly unlikely that the Biedenharns sent their carts that far west of Vicksburg between 1894-1912. Joe Biedenharn bought it in 1913 but the brothers bought it in February 1912 Yes, Joe did move his family to Monroe the same year as the purchase of the Monroe Coca Cola plant. Mr. Renwick was the previous owner who the Biedenharn's purchased the company from but I have nothing on Renwick here. I am working on finding something that may help but sources for that time frame in Monroe history are limited. No, we do not display any of the Renwick bottles at this time but my understanding is they were Hutchinson style bottles, brown/amber glass, labeled on the bottom with Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. The Biedenharn bottles are not labeled with the word “Valley” on the bottom but they did sell Coke out of Monroe as early as 1912 but they were not the first to bottle Coca-Cola in the city of Monroe.


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## SODAPOPBOB

They way I see things, there are at least five major missing links to be considered and hopefully find the answers to, which are ... 1.  Exactly when was Coca Cola first bottled in Monroe? 1904 or earlier? Or later than 1904? 2.  Who was the first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe? 3.  How long was W.B.W. in operation? 4.  Did W.B.W. bottle Coca Cola? 5.  Did my aqua bottle originate from W.B.W. or O.V.B.W?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I truly believe the answers to all of our questions will be found in Monroe City Directories from about 1900 to 1910. Its possible that one of the city or county libraries have those particular directories and I think it would benefit all of us if you could check into it. Because they are considered reference books they probably won't allow you to remove them from the library but they might allow you to scan and/or take pictures of the listings. I have pretty much exhausted my Internet searches and hope you can find the time to check out your local libraries.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, great discovery there. Yep i did mention WBW earlier in the thread. I am also very interested in their physical address. What if Renwick changed the name from WBW to OVBW ?


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## iggyworf

My vote now is for W.B.W. Lots of info to digest though!


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## SODAPOPBOB

The most important question I have at the moment is ... Did W.B.W. actually exist? The reason I ask this is because the 1908 American Bottler listing is the only reference I can find that it was ever in operation - no bottles - no nothing. We are putting a lot of eggs into the American Bottler basket but what if they messed up and confused the word Ouachita with the word W-a-s-h-i-t-a?  I believe they were both names of different rivers in the area as well as names of two different counties (parishes). I would feel a lot better about things if we could find a couple of more references for W.B.W. Heck, even one more reference would make my day!


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## Bass Assassin

There is only one river in this area and it is Ouachita. There is only 1 parish (county) named Ouachita. There is a river  in Arkansas i believe named W-a-s-h-i-t-a. And Ouachita and Washita are pronounced the same. There were some mispellings in the early 1800's maps of the Ouachita River here and it was spelled as the Washita River. Hope that clears things up for the folks who do not know how to pronounce Ouachita. ( its actually pronounced washitaw). I will have to take a trip to the library and see if there are any directories or other information on file. Good work Bob.


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## iggyworf

The Washita river runs from Texas into Oklahoma.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Thanks, Mark and iggy Because ... 1.  The 1908 American Bottler listing might be a typo2.  There are currently no other known listings for W.B.W.3.  It doesn't make sense that Joseph Renwick would operate two bottling plants at the same time4.  The Hutchinson Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle suggest a turn-of-the-century origin 5.  There is no factual or physical evidence to support that W.B.W. ever existed ... I am going to assume for the time being that Joseph Renwick owned and operated only one bottling facility in Monroe at any time, especially in 1908, and that that bottling company was the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. If evidence to the contrary presents itself in the future I will stand corrected at that time. As for the unmarked aqua Coca Cola bottle from Monroe, that still remains a mystery. But one possible explanation might be that it was Renwick's first Coca Cola bottle and for some reason he just wasn't able to have Ouachita Valley Bottling Works embossed on the base and that his first bottle to have the name was the amber bottle.


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## Bass Assassin

Thanks iggy. I knew there was another river i just didn't know where


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The possibility of the aqua bottle being Renwick's first might also explain the rectangular slug plate on the bottom where MONROE, LA. is embossed in that it was originally a generic bottle mold that a slug plate name was added to for quicker and cheaper delivery to Renwick.


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## SODAPOPBOB

For Future Reference ... Here's some more information about the C 1163 mark that's on the base of my aqua bottle. This particular article is by Bill Lockart and the Bottle Research Group but has quotes from Bill Porter. The C Four-digit number part is on pages 167 and 168 or pages 9 and 10 if you use the speed scroll on the right. Notice where they attribute the C. 1163 mark to a Lexington, North Carolina bottle but for Monroe, Louisiana they list a C. 1113 mark. We may never know for certain who made my aqua Coca Cola bottle, but according to this article they are apparently leaning toward the Carolina Glass Company, Columbus, South Carolina. However, according to the other article I posted, the marks could also have been those of the Chattanooga Glass Company in Tennessee. As for myself, I'm still leaning toward my aqua bottles as being formed from a generic Coca Cola mold which had a rectangular slug plate inserted into the mold to emboss it with MONROE, LA.   Read all about it! http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/carolinaglassco.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I sent Ralph Calhoun and Daniel Walters the "Joseph Renwick Timeline" and hoping it will knock their socks off. I also asked that they be sure and contact me if/when they find a confirmed date for the very first Coca Cola bottler in Monroe. If it turns out to be 1904 or earlier, that will knock my socks off because it will open up the possibility the aqua bottle is even earlier than what I am currently speculating it might be. By the way, I also sent them a picture of the aqua bottle and hoping it will blow their minds as well.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. Because of the extensive information this thread contains, everyone who Google searches anything about Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola - Joseph Biedenharn, or Joseph Renwick will undoubtedly be led to this thread, which I hope will assist everyone who reads it and especially because it might give Joseph Renwick his just due that has been overlooked in the past.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Coca Cola Bottling vs. Coca Cola Franchise*

To take this discussion one step further and hopefully shed some light on the dates, I discovered that in order to become a Coca Cola *franchise* bottler in the early days that a prospective bottler had to meet certain requirements, which were ...

"The requirements to obtain a franchise were to purchase ten shares of Coca Cola Company stock and to sell 200 gallons of Coca Cola syrup, each year, for three consecutive years, after which the franchise would be granted."

If this was true when Joseph Renwick first started bottling Coca Cola in Monroe, then it might explain why the 75th anniversary bottle is dated 1907 but in reality Joseph Renwick actually started bottling Coca Cola in 1904, which would account for the *three year *gap. It could be the various anniversary bottles indicate when the franchise contract was secured and not necessarily when the product was first bottled. I plan to research this further, but it appears this *might *explain a few things regarding the debate involving the dates. 

I'm not sure what one share of Coca Cola cost in 1904-1907, but in 1919 they were selling for $40.00 per share. If the dividends from that single share were reinvested over the years, it would be worth $9.8 million dollars in 2012.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, that makes perfectly good sense. Good piece of information you uncovered. As soon as i can i will visit the library to see what i can dig up


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark

In case no one has noticed, and you'd have to be blind not to have, but it seems I have dug a research hole that's so deep I'm beginning to wonder if I will ever see daylight again. But I can't seem to help myself because with every turn of the shovel I uncover another shard of evidence that spurs me on to keep diging even deeper and deeper. My latest whim involves searching for straight sided Coca Cola bottles that have the rectangular slug plates on the lower bottom with the town and state embossed in it. And I'll be danged if the three examples I am aware of so far don't all have five things in common, which are ...

1.  All three bottles have the rectangular town/state slug plate on the lower portion of the bottle.
2.  All three bottles are embossed with the mid-script Coca Cola signature.
3.  All three bottles are embossed with TRADEMARK REGISTERED.
4.  All three bottles are either clear or aqua colored glass.
5.  All three bottles are from southern towns and states.

They are ...

1.  Monroe, Louisiana
2.  Dublin, Georgia
3.  Fort Valley, Georgia

There's a Dublin, Georgia bottle currently on eBay. Notice what the seller was told by an "older collector." 

Dublin, Georgia bottle ~ eBay link


http://www.ebay.com/itm/XXX-RARE-DUBLIN-GA-COCA-COLA-STRAIGHT-SIDE-SS-COKE-BEAUTIFUL-BOTTLE-GEORGIA-/161426586795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2595c63cab

Because I am only aware of three of these slug plate bottles so far, and not sure of the dates they were made, I still have some more digging to do and see what my shovel turns up next to try and make sense of and/or find a connection between these particular bottles. If I find even one bottle that doesn't have the same five things in common as the others, then I plan to fill in my research hole and call it a day.


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Speaking of digging bottomless holes, try searching for rectangular slug plate Coca Cola bottles and you'll see what I mean (Lol) []


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, look what I just found - another one!  And guess where it's from ... Millidgeville, Georgia (Its hard to see the rectangular slug plate in this picture, but its there! And best of all, it meets the criteria of the other bottles)


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Major Breakthrough / Maybe / If ...*

The earliest confirmed date we have seen so far for the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works came from the 1906 coal document I posted earlier. However, *if *the following information is accurate, and I believe it is, then we should be able to safely establish an "in operation" date for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as early as *1903*. First of all, notice in the attached image, which is from the Hutchbook website, where I underlined in red that their Hutchinson bottle is marked with ...

*I.G.Co. 477*

Now scroll to Page 7 of this Bill Lockhart article where you will find ...

*"Numbers in the 1903 *[ Illinois Glass Company ] *catalog extended to 477"*

There is a lot more information to be gleaned from the article, but this one sentence is enough to convince me the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was definitely in operation in Monroe, Louisiana at least as early as *1903*. Which in turn brings us closer to the possibility that Coca Cola could very well have been bottled in Monroe as early as 1903 or 1904.

Here's the link ~ Scroll to Page 7

Http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/BLockhart_FHGW.PDF


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. On the same page of the article I just posted it also says ... *"The 1906 catalog extended the numbers to 666"* I couldn't find a 1903 catalog, but I did find this 1906 catalog. I haven't had time to study it yet, but if what they said in the last article is correct, then the bottle style numbers in this 1906 catalog should start with *478 *and extend to *666*. If someone finds the number 478 before I do, please let us know where to find it for ourselves. Thanks! http://www.sha.org/bottle/igco_1906.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB

Correction ... I incorrectly typed the number 666 which should have been *766*


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## SODAPOPBOB

I guess I need a vacation to get me out of the hole I dug. *766 *is the correct number but for some weird reason I got logged out during an edit and things got messed up trying to log in again. It felt like one of those commercials where they say "Help, I've fallen down and I can't get up."  In other words, keep track of your password because you never know when the hall monitors will sneak up on you and require you to log in for no particular reason.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Okay, I'm back on track again (I think) [:-]  The information in the Bill Lockhart article is confusing as heck, but aside from that I did manage to find a Hutchinson bottle with mold No. 477. The cool thing about it is, it matches the style of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works hutch with the 10-sided mug base. However, let's not forget that this particular bottle was in the 1906 catalog. So I'm still a little confused if Bill Lockhart was saying this same bottle style was in both the 1903 and 1906 catalog or just the 1906 catalog. But whatever the case, because the same bottle is in the 1906 catalog, that takes it away from being a "confirmed" 1903 bottle. Hey, Mark Howz about one of these dayz going back to the Biedenharn Museum and check the 28 ounce crown O.V.B.W. bottle you took a picture of and see if it has a date code on it which is what Bill Lockhart said most of them should have. I remember you said it was marked with I.G.Co. If there is a number on it near the I.G.Co. mark, that could be one of the date codes Bill Lockhart was referring to. 1.  Page 243 from the 1906 Illinois Glass Company catalog2.  Cropped image of Hutchinson bottle No. 4773.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works hutch bottle for comparison


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If the museum bottle happens to have a date code earlier than 1906, then we would have a new date to work with and possibly put us near the 1904 date we keep hearing about. If the O.V.B.W. was in operation as early as 1904, then they could very easily have been bottling Coca Cola at that time.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. To eliminate any confusion, its highly possible the O.V.B.W. used a hutchinson bottle and a crown bottle at the same time. Especially if they "needed" a crown bottle with Coca Cola embossed on it! The more I look into this, the more convinced I become that the aqua Monroe Coca Cola bottle just might be one of the earliest "crown" Coca Cola bottles ever produced. It's starting to strike me as a possible transition bottle from hutch's to crown's. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. ~ P.S. Let's not forget that Monroe, Louisiana is only about 80 miles from Vicksburg, Mississippi. And because Vicksburg is where Joseph Biedenharn got started in 1894, its not hard to believe that many of the first Coca Cola bottlers were established "*close to home*." (Of course, Atlanta, Georgia was the real home of Coca Cola, but let's not go there!) []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I hope everyone understands that my obsession here is mainly in trying to comprehend what the experts like Bill Porter and Bill Lockhart are conveying in their various articles. Without their information and the hands-on research they've done, I for one would be lost to oblivion in trying to figure this stuff out on my own. The only bummer is, their information can be extremely hard to understand at times, which is one of the reasons I keep jumping around so much trying to make sense of it. As weird as this might sound, it's partly because of the confusion and the re-reading of the material over and over again that I just now stumbled onto something that I missed earlier and which now allows me to say ... Hey, Mark I just found evidence that might prove our amber bottles were made *before *my aqua bottle. I'll tell ya more about it tomorrow, and hope it will knock your socks off!  []


----------



## sandchip

To the rectangular slugplates, add Hawkinsville, Waycross, Augusta, Albany, and Americus.  That's just what I have, and I believe there are many more from Georgia.  Georgia Crown Tops by Barnett and Nease would probably picture many more.


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## SODAPOPBOB

sandchip / Jimbo

Thanks for the additions. Since my last post I also found several more examples, all of which were from southern states. But I'm still not sure of the dates or exactly what it tells us other than there seemed to be a trend for using the slug plates on southern bottles. Like I said earlier, if the same thing is eventually found on non southern bottles then it eliminates the practice as being a strictly southern attribute. I suppose only with time and more searching will we ever know for certain. In fact, the rectangular slug plate topic could easily become a study unto itself in trying to determine the who, what, where, and why's of it. If it can be determined that only small-time bottlers used the slug plates because it was cheaper, then that would at least offer one explanation for the practice. But even determining that could be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark

Its because of the following information from Bill Porter's 2012 article, "Dating and Identifying Early Coca-Cola Bottles" that leads me to suspect our amber bottles could possibly have been produced before the aqua bottle. I remember reading this portion of the article previously but at the time it just went in one ear and out the other. But now that I've had time to organize my notes a little better, the information seems to fit more neatly into the scheme of things. However, please be reminded that even Bill Porter uses terms like "possible" and "line of evidence," which indicate that none of his findings are necessarily etched in stone and are subject to other interpretations. But even with that said, I believe Bill has done more hands-on research than anyone else and that his observations are probably as close to being accurate as we are likely to find anywhere. So without further ado, I draw your attention to the portion of the article where it says ...

*           "... the term 'Trademark Registered' did not appear on early Coke bottles."*

                                                     (See attached images below)

It so happens that my aqua bottle is clearly embossed with 'Trademark Registered' but the amber bottles are not!

But let's not jump to conclusions just yet because there is the usual confusion that goes along with this. The confusion I'm referring to is the part where Bill says ...

*                          "Interestingly, however, this did not apply to many states." * 

As you will see after reading the snippets below, Bill seems to be of the opinion that it was primarily the Joseph Whitehead territory bottles that fell into the category of being the ones to have 'Trademark Registered' on them. And even though I strongly believe Monroe was originally part of Whitehead's territory, I could be wrong about this. If we assume for the moment that Monroe was in fact part of Whitehead's territory, and that it was the Harold Hirsch bottles in particular that carried the "Trademark Registered,' this is the primary reason why I now suspect two potentially important things ...

1.  The *amber* bottles might have been produced *prior* to when Hirsch gained control
     over the bottles under his jurisdiction which began in 1905.

2.  The *aqua* bottles might have been produced *after *Hirsch gained control over the
      bottles under his jurisdiction which began in 1905, thus requiring all bottles from 1905
      and later to be embossed with 'Trademark Registered.' 


Another aspect of the amber bottles I can't seem to shake off is how closely the base embossing resembles that of the embossing on the side of Hutchinson bottles, which are almost identical. Not to mention the blank slug plate on the side of the amber bottles. That looks as if it could have been intended to be used for another form of bottler identification embossing, but in the case of the amber bottles was put on the base instead of the side.

But irregardless of this-that-or-the-other, the main reason I now suspect the amber bottles might be older than the aqua bottles is because of the 'Trademark Registered' on the aqua bottles.   

As to when the aqua bottles were made and why they don't have a bottler's name on them, I can only speculate they might have something to do with Joseph Whitehead's influence on what was required for bottles after 1905.

 What do you think? Does any of this make sense?   

[  These cropped paragraphs are from Page 3 of the 2012 Bill Porter article ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Correction! Where I said ... As to when the aqua bottles were made and why they don't have a bottler's name on them, I can only speculate they might have something to do with Joseph Whitehead's influence on what was required for bottles after 1905. ... I meant to say *Harold Hirsch's* influence and not Joseph Whitehead's influence.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next important question ...       Which states were in Whitehead's territory and which states were in Thomas' territory?       (I have done an exhaustive search for the answer but can't find the specifics anywhere)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the aqua bottle again to confirm the embossed 'Trademark Registered'


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## Bass Assassin

i told you earlier that i felt the amber bottles were older and i finally let you convince me that the aqua pre-dated the ambers. I don't have any proof or evidence to back up my opinion. I know when i pick up the amber bottle and hold it i just get a feeling in my gut that its a very early bottle. These bottles raise more questions than they answer. The research you have provided answers a lot of questions that have plagued me for the past couple of years. I am definitely going to hace to go into the library and look for old phone listings, maps and newspapers.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:
			
		

> Bob, I have been curious about that 75th ann bottle, seeing as you did not get your commemorative book yet, I went to my girlfriends house and looked it up in the book I got her. On page 233 it has one pic only of the bottle and not much other info. Nothing specific. Maybe you can come up with more.(her book is the 2nd edition)This has become a monster thread with lots of interesting stuff. Thanx to all who provided input, especially SodapopBob, Bass Assasin and of course goodman1966 and his bottle!


 Mark I agree - mucho questions - paquito answers! I'm thinking libraries might be our best resource. The script location isn't much help either. According to charts like this one, both bottles could have been made anytime between about 1900 and 1910. center slug plate script - about 1900-1905.[ul][*]    base rectangular slug plate script - about 1900-1905.[*]    mid body script - about 1900-1910.[*]    base script - about 1902-1915.[*]    center diamond script - about 1907-1912. Only from Cumberland MD (amber and clear) and Toledo OH (amber).    Photo courtesy of Tim McGuire.[*]    vertical script - about 1905-1910.    Only from Milwaukee WI.[*]    vertical arrow script - about 1912-1916.    All amber, primarily TN and KY.[*]    circular arrow script - about 1912-1914.    All from Jackson TN (amber and aqua).[*]    shoulder script - about 1910-1919.[/ul]  iggy Could you please check your girlfriend's commemorative book again and tell us if the Monroe 75th anniversary bottle that's pictured in it is aqua, clear, or amber?  Thanks


----------



## Bass Assassin

Iggy, if possible try to take a photo of the bottle


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## iggyworf

I will get that info soon and a picture as well and post it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Thanks a lot - we will be looking forward to it.

In the meantime, here's a brief biography about Wiley P. Polk for future reference and historical interest. It was published in 1914 and mentions Joseph Renwick as being in the real estate and dairy business. All it needs now is a footnote indicating that Joseph was the first bottler of Coca Cola in Monroe, Louisiana.


http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/ouachita/bios/renwick.txt

Biography of (Capt.) Wiley P. Renwick, Troup County, Ga., then Ouachita Parish, Louisiana
Submitted by Mike Miller Source: Source:  Louisiana: Comprising Sketches of Parishes, Towns, Events, Institutions, and Persons, Arranged in Cyclopedic Form, volume 3, p. 735. Edited by Alc e Fortier, Lit. D.  Published in 1914, by Century Historical Association.<BR>

**********************************************
Copyright.  All rights reserved.http://usgwarchives.net/copyright.htm http://usgwarchives.net/la/lafiles.htm 
**********************************************
 Renwick, Capt. Wiley Polk, prominent in the commercial life of Monroe, was born Aug. 16, 1840, In Troup county, Ga. His parents were Dr. Nathan R. And Maria (McCriller) Renwick, the former of whom was a native of South Carolina, who settled in Georgia when a young man and practiced Medicine in Troup county.  He remained there until toward the close of his life, then settling In Bastrop, La., a few years prior to his death, where he had continued his professional labor.  W. P. Renwick spent his youth in Georgia till 1861, when he came to Louisiana and joined Co. B, 3d Louisiana regiment infantry, in order to be with his brother.  He was first under Gen. McCullouchAnd later under Gen. Price. The first year of the war he was in southwest Missouri and northwest Arkansas, but in 1862 was transferred to Corinth,Miss., under Beauregard and Bragg. He was in a number of battles, having been wounded 3 times, twice in 1 battle, and in hospital on both occasions. He was taken prisoner twice by Grant's army, the first time being left behind on account of a wound; The second time he was surrendered at Vicksburg in 1863. On the latter occasion, after being paroled, he came home and remained until exchanged. After that he saw no active service and was not well from his wounds for 7 years. In 1865 he was paroled and came to Bastrop, where he engaged in general merchandising for about 7 years. In 1871 he moved to Monroe and engaged in handling cotton and freight on steamboats and cars, having remained in the shipping business to this time. He devotes all his time to the People's Warehouse & Compress Co. and the Standard Warehouse & Compress Co., both in Monroe, La. 
In the Confederate army Mr. Renwick was a lieutenant and in reconstruction days he was elected captain of a company, since which time has been called captain. Capt. Renwick is a member of the Masonic order, a member and elder in the Presbyterian church and commander of the local camp, No. 182, of the United Confederate Veterans.  In Dec., 1862, Mr. Renwick was married to Margaret, daughter of N. P. Cook of Yazoo county, Miss., and they have the following children:  Joseph, in real estate and in the dairy business with his father;  Willie Fay, now Mrs. F. B. Seiguine of Monroe; cook, in the dairy business; Leonora, now Mrs. H. G. Prophitt of Monroe, La.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark

Remember the brief discussion we had about whether there was ever a W-a-s-h-i-t-a Bottling Works and if the 1908 American Bottler reference was a typo? Because I still can't find another reference for W.B.W., I'm still of the opinion they never existed. As it turns out, it appears the American Bottler wasn't the only source who was confused about the name. But whether this was because of the pronunciation or some other reason, we may never know. Notice in this 1912 publication where they got the parish correct but then said Monroe was on the W-a-s-h-i-t-a River. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=6ptPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PT384&lpg=PT384&dq=washita+river+monroe+louisiana&source=bl&ots=XYgSpvgRnG&sig=p9ckjvcsR3PhcJJh9QWh_O8DRhc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MF4nVNeBOZfQoAT_nIGwDg&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=washita%20river%20monroe%20louisiana&f=false

Apparently even early map makers were confused ...

[ Attachments ]

1.  1860 Map Shows W-a-s-h-i-t-a Parish
2.   But on the same 1860 map it shows the Ouachita River 
3.   And then on this 1864 map it shows it as the W-a-s-h-i-t-a River 

You gotta wonder why it was so confusing. I can only assume it was probably because of the pronunciation.


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## SODAPOPBOB

This link contains a ton of information and is for anyone interested in doing some advanced research on the genealogy of Ouachita Parish, Louisiana ...  http://www.genealogyinc.com/louisiana/ouachita-parish/


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## SODAPOPBOB

sandchip said:
			
		

> To the rectangular slugplates, add Hawkinsville, Waycross, Augusta, Albany, and Americus.  That's just what I have



Jimbo Do any of your slug plate bottles have makers marks, date codes, or anything else that might help to date them?  According to Cecil Munsey's book, the start dates for the bottlers you listed are ... Hawkinsville = 1903Waycross = 1905Augusta = 1902Albany = 1903Americus = 1905


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## iggyworf

Here are the pics of the 75th anniversary Monroe bottle. The book has only one image. It is clear glass.[attachment=coke monroe 75th annv 1.jpg] [attachment=coke monroe 75th info.jpg]


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## Bass Assassin

Thanks Iggy. We really don't know if the anniversary bottle was made to look like the 1st  one or if it was one bottle style  they used for all of the anniversary bottles.  We may be at a dead end on this one. Look at the book again and see if all the bottles that are anniversary bottles look the same.  At this point i don't believe coca cola knows what type bottle each bottling company used for their 1st year. That would be next to impossible for them to have that infornation for every bottler out there.


----------



## sandchip

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Do any of your slug plate bottles have makers marks, date codes, or anything else that might help to date them?  According to Cecil Munsey's book, the start dates for the bottlers you listed are ... Hawkinsville = 1903Waycross = 1905Augusta = 1902Albany = 1903Americus = 1905



The shoulder script Augusta has a 7 beneath the script on the bottom.  The mid-script Fort Valley and Hawkinsville have nothing.  The mid-script Waycross has a 1388 with an A beneath embossed on the bottom.  It's difficult to tell if the last digit is actually an 8.  Looks like there was some alteration on that character (letter or number).  I'll check the others tomorrow.  Here's a base script on the back of an Americus Bottling Co. that I found a few years back.  Ken Nease told me it was only the third example he had ever heard of. [attachment=americuscoke.jpg] [attachment=americuscoke1.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy

Thanks for the picture of the 75th anniversary bottle. I agree with Mark in that most if not all of the anniversary bottles are somewhat generic. I did an image search for the various bottles issued and every one I found was a shoulder script style. I did not find a singe one that featured a mid-body nor a base script. However, several of them were made in amber glass but I do not know if this was a true representation of the bottlers first bottle or just an indication they produced an amber bottle at some point. The attached images are of an original amber bottle from Huntsville, Alabama along with it's 75th anniversary counterpart that is also amber. Buy, again, I'm not sure if this was Huntsville's first bottle or not. According to Cecil Munsey's book, the Huntsville Coca Cola bottler bagan operation in 1902.



Jimbo

Thanks for the information about your slug plate bottles. I tried to make sense of them by using Bill Porter's article about dating early Coca Cola bottles but didn't come up with much other than it appears your bottles are early and possibly pre 1910.



I'm at the point now where I think it highly unlikely we'll be able to precisely date any of the bottles in question here, including the amber and aqua examples from Monroe. But I do believe we will eventually be able to determine exactly when Monroe first began bottling Coca Cola if we look in the right place, which at this juncture I believe will be in Monroe city directories if they can be found in the date range from around 1900 to about 1907. And when I say 'directories' I don't necessarily mean phone directories. There was also what was known as business directories. If the right person finds the right directory, this mystery might be solved in a heartbeat.



Hey, Mark

I'm thinking that 'right person' is you!  And if the city or county libraries don't have the right directories, try the (ULM) University of Louisiana at Monroe library. I've seen indications where they have an extensive collection on Monroe history reference books including some directories. 

Good luck - we'll be waiting anxiously to see what you "dig up."

1.   Original Huntsville, Alabama amber Coca Cola bottle ~ Mid-script ~ Date unknown
2.   75th Anniversary Huntsville, Alabama amber Coca Cola Bottle ~ Shoulder-script ~ 1902-1977


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## SODAPOPBOB

For those who are not familiar with Bill Porter's "Coke Bottle Checklist" booklet, it also includes two sections for straight-sided Coca Cola bottles. The first section is for aqua bottles and the second section is for amber bottles. However, its important to note that he does not include any dates, hence there is no indication whether the listings for Monroe are pre or post 1912 when Joseph Biedenharn began his operation. But whether pre-1912 or post-1912, he list both the aqua as well as the amber bottle from Monroe as somewhat common. One note of interest is that for the entire state of Louisiana he list a total of 13 aqua straight-sided bottles but only 3 amber straight-sided bottles, with the 3 amber bottles being from Monroe, New Orleans, and Shreveport. But, again, no specific dates. According to Cecil Munsey's book, the start-up dates for the three Louisiana bottlers that used amber bottles are ... Monroe = 1904New Orleans = 1902Shreveport = 1904


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## SODAPOPBOB

Next Question: Did Biedenharn ever use an amber bottle? If so, it should be marked with "Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company," and date between 1912 and about 1917. (The first "Hobbleskirts" were issued in the spring of 1917)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I respectfully call into question Bill Porter's indication that *amber *Coca Cola bottles from Monroe and Shreveport are considered somewhat common. I found lots of pictures of amber bottles from New Orleans, but try finding a picture of an amber bottles from Monroe or Shreveport and you will see what I mean.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. / Correction I unintentionally included the Shreveport amber bottle in my last post. Bill Porter list it as rare, so it does not count in my questioning of its rarity. But I do stand firm on the Monroe amber bottle's rarity.


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## sandchip

Neither of my mid-scripts from Americus or Albany have any additional markings.


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## iggyworf

Yes I believe all the anniversary bottles are generic, with most of them looking like the monroe one. There are some with different designs. I think the amber/clear ones might be random also. But great work everybody on this topic!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Based on my personal interpretation of the evidence presented thus far, my new best guess estimate regarding the dates and rarity of the two Monroe, Louisiana Coca Cola bottles in question are as follows ...

Dates:

1.  Amber Bottle ....Circa 1904 to 1907

2.  Aqua Bottle ......Circa 1907 to 1910


Rarity:

1.  Amber Bottle .... Rare +  
2.  Aqua Bottle ....... Rare ++


Footnote: 

I'm rating the amber bottles as less rare than the aqua bottles because two of the amber bottles appeared on eBay at the same time which were from two different sellers in two different states. Whereas the aqua bottle is the only one I'm aware of. Plus, I have found several pictures and references for the amber bottles but no additional pictures or references for the aqua bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Revised/Edited/Updated                                Subject to change depending on future evidence                                    Joseph Renwick Timeline

   ( I have never seen a middle name or initial for Joseph and suspect he didn't have one )

               ( Joseph's father was Wiley Polk Renwick ~ Abbreviated here as W.P. )

*1840  *W.P. Renwick born on August 15, 1840 ~ Georgia
*1861  *W.P. Renwick Joins Confederate army during the Civil War
*1863  *W.P. Renwick captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, 1863 ~ Lieutenant
*1868  *Joseph Renwick born on July 4, 1868 ~ Louisiana
(Ironically, Joseph was born five years to the day after his father was captured at Vicksburg)
*1870  *W.P. listed in census as retail grocer
*1873  *W.P. listed as river boat agent 
*1881  *W.P. listed as Monroe city councilmen
*1887  *Joseph employed as firewood supplier for Trousdale Brothers Grocery
*1888  *Joseph self employed as firewood supplier
*1889  *Joseph listed as member of the fraternal organization "Ouachita Pelicans" ~ Captain
*1900  *Joseph listed in census as cotton buyer
*1904  Possible date when Joseph Renwick first bottled Coca Cola in Monroe, La.*
*1906  *Earliest found (Confirmed) listing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1910  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1912  *Monroe Directory list Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as bottler of Coca Cola
*1912  *Joseph Renwick sells Ouachita Valley Bottling works to Joseph Biedenharn
*1913  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as a dairymen ~ Wildwood Farm Dairy
*1914  *Joseph listed as a dairymen as well as being in the real estate business
*1928  *Wiley Polk Renwick died April 27, 1928 ~ 88 years old
*1930s *Joseph Renwick dairymen and involved in Monroe civic affairs including school board
*1942  *Joseph Renwick died April 24, 1942 ~ 73 Years old


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 1.  My amber bottle shipped from Virginia2.  Mark's amber bottle shipped from Georgia3.  My aqua bottle shipped from Arkansas Note:  Because the sellers might be members of this forum, I'd rather not mention their names.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Talk about misleading ...

Please educate me where this Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle that's currently on eBay ...

1.  Is marked that it's a Coca Cola bottle?
2.  Is an early paper labeled Coca Cola bottle?  


http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-STRAIGHT-SIDED-COCA-COLA-BOTTLE-MONROE-LOUISIANA-early-Quachita-Valley-/301334096151?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4628e96917

Seller's Description:

Real nice example. Embossed "QUACHITA VALLEY BOTTLING WORKS MONROE, LA." In slug plate. Owned by the Biedenharn family of Vicksburgh, MS. Early paper labeled coca cola bottle. No chips or cracks.



By the way, I sent the seller an email and asked him to check and see if the bottle had any letters, numbers, or symbols embossed on it. However, I did not attempt to educate him. Who knows, maybe he forgot to show a picture of the other side of the bottle. I'll let you know what he has to say when I hear back from him. I normally wouldn't post something like this but doubt anyone is going to pay a starting bid of $125.00.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, i definitely believe all the ebay sellers of our bottles are on this site including this newest one. I am willing to bet the farm that "coca cola" is not embossed anywhere on this bottle


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, it says this bottle is embossed on the bottom NPC &Co. A few posts back you asked me to go back to the museum and see what was on the bottom of the large OVBW bottle. That's it, NPC& Co.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark You must have tapped into the "new description" right after the seller updated it. I just now got a reply from him saying the same thing. The O.V.B.W. hutchinson bottle also has the NPC & Co. mark, which I researched but never was able to determine what it stood for. You probably noticed in the revised description that the bottle is also marked on the heel with ROOT 539, which I'm researching now and trying to connect a date with. I'll be back!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Long story short ... Based on the information in the Bill Porter article I have been referring to, the best I can come up with is that the ROOT 539 mark was used sometime between about 1905 and 1909. Which really doesn't help us all that much because we already knew the O.V.B.W. was in operation during that time period. But one thing is for sure - that ain't no Coca Cola bottle!


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, i just looked at my center slug plate OVBW bottle and it doesn't have a maker's mark on it. It is BIM with an applied top.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Bob, i just looked at my center slug plate OVBW bottle and it doesn't have a maker's mark on it. It is BIM with an applied top.



Mark I'm not sure if there is a question tucked in there somewhere, but based on what I've learned along the way I'd guestimate your bottle to date sometime between about 1905 and 1910. The key thing I'm looking for lately is the use of the 'Trademark Registered' which, at least in the case of most Coca Cola bottles, was apparently first used around 1905 or later. Speaking of questions, here's one for you ... What you think a dinged up, scratched, clouded glass, *possibly one-of-a-kind*, aqua Coca Cola bottle from Monroe, Louisiana worth? If you'd rather not say, I will understand. But if you do take an honest stab at it, then I'll tell you and everyone else how much I paid for it. Plus, if I ever decide to sell it you'll be the first one on my list to offer it to. So whatta ya say? How much is such a critter actually worth?  Here's a picture of it again to refresh your memory ...


----------



## Bass Assassin

Its a one of a kind that I've never seen. In my honest opinion, with the dings/chips I still think its worth every bit of 150 to a serious collector. If it were in mint condition, who knows. I am very interested to know if my neighbor/friend has one in that barn where his collection is. He used to dig in the old Monroe dump.


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## sandchip

Doesn't look to be in too bad a shape to me.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Gracias' Amigos I Paid ... *$68.00 ... Buy It Now**$10.55 ....... Shipping**$78.55 Total* So I guess I did alright!  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next Question ... What the h*LL does *NPC & Co. *stand for? I've looked high and low and cannot find anything bottle or glass related to it.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, thats a conservative number. Until proven otherwise, thats a great deal you made for a rate bottle.... I can't find anything on NPC& Co...thats just crazy!


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## goodman1966

Hey guys, I've looked too.......absolutely nothing !


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## SODAPOPBOB

Notice that the Root and the Illinois Glass Company Hutchinson bottles both have the NPC & CO. mark. Which leads me to suspect it has nothing to do with either glass company but rather something to do with the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works itself. I'm thinking it might be a name abbreviation of some type such as (for example) ... Nathan Patrick Connors & Company And don't be confused by the ROOT 559 on the Hutchinson bottle, especially after we just talked about the ROOT 539 on the eBay crown bottle. According to Bill Porter, it was not uncommon for a lower number to be on a later bottle. Plus, its possible the Hutch bottle is actually later than the crown bottle. Umm, on second thought, forget what I said about "don't be confused." Its a long story that you'll have to ask Bill Porter about. []  Anyhoo, I think NPC is someone's initials. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And ... If its not someone's initials, then what common denominator is there between the Illinois Glass Company and the Root Glass Company?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Perhaps the answer to the NPC & CO. question can be found on one of these sites. I especially like the second one but I haven't had time to read all of it - too much information to absorb this late in the day.  



Illinois Glass Company ~ Brief History

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/diamond-i-or-i-inside-a-diamond-mark-seen-on-antique-bottles/



Illinois Glass Company ~ Detailed History ~ Bill Lockhart

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/IGCo_BLockhart.pdf



Root Glass Company ~ Brief History

http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/root-glass-company-terre-haute-indiana/


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## SODAPOPBOB

Its starting to look as if the N.P.C. & CO. mark was used exclusively on Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottles only. I scrolled through the entire listing of Louisiana Hutchinson bottles and found several that were made by the Illinois Glass Company and were model No. 477 bottles, but only the O.V.B.W. bottles are embossed with N.P.C. & CO. The bottles on the link below are listed alphabetically and the other Louisiana town names that used the I.G.Co. 477 bottle are ...

Alexandria ~ Page 1
Bunkie ~ Page 2
Leesville ~ Page 5
Plaquemine ~ Page 13


I'm also including the link for the entire Hutchinson bottles listings by state, which I briefly studied but so far have not found another bottle marked with N.P.C. & Co. Even though my findings are not conclusive, I'm going to assume for the time being that the N.P.C. & CO. mark was in some way directly related to the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. But whether its someone's initials or stands for something else, I still don't know, but I intend to focus my ongoing search on Monroe and especially on the O.V.B.W. and see what I can find if anything.


Louisiana Hutchinson Bottles List


http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottle%20Directory/Documents/USA-LA-Hutches.pdf


All States Hutchinson Bottles List

Http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottle%20Directory/HutchDocuments.aspx


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

There's no way this is just a coincidence regarding N.P.C. & Co. in connection with Joseph Renwick and N.P. Cook 

http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/ouachita/bios/renwick.txt

In December of 1862, Mr. Renwick was married to Margaret, daughter of *N.P. Cook *of Yazoo county, Mississippi


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I searched the U.S. Census for N.P. Cook of Monroe, Louisiana and found the following occupations for him ... 1880 ~ Age 32 ~ Clerk in store1900 ~ Age 42 ~ Public Market Master1910 ~ Age 52 ~ Mercantile


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Major Correction ... It wasn't Joseph Renwick who married Margaret Cook in 1862, it was Joseph's father, Wiley P. Renwick. Which means N.P. Cook was Joseph's grandfather.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ... *N.P. Cook & Company* From ~ The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, Louisiana ~ June 16, 1888


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next Question ... Why is the name reference of N.P. Cook on Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottles?


----------



## Bass Assassin

I' m guessing he helped fund the start up of OVBW.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> I'm guessing he helped fund the start up of OVBW.



 I agree! The term "& Company" could have been other family members who were involved in his various enterprises. There is more information on N.P. Cook in the Monroe newspapers than I can shake a stick at! Just suffice it to say he was a prominent citizen and merchant in Monroe for many, many years. The newspaper articles and advertisements I found for him date between 1880 and 1927, and there may be other years I didn't have time to access. He should be added to the historical list of individuals involved with the establishment of the O.V.B.W., which eventually became the first bottlers of Coca Cola in Monroe.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> I'm thinking it might be a name abbreviation of some type such as (for example) ... Nathan Patrick Connors & Company



Because the newspapers just show the name as N.P. Cook, I was having difficulty finding a first name for him. Needless to say, I was shocked when I discovered that his first name was ... *Nathan* That's why I included my earlier post. I just pulled the name Nathan out of thin air when I used it as an example as to what the "N" might stand for. So I guess I must be physic because I can offer no other explanation as to how I came up with the right first name. I was also having a bit of a problem determining what year he was born, but the following attachments will hopefully clear up all of that. 1.  Monroe Daily Star - February 4, 1927 ~ Says he was 70 years old at the time, which means he was born around 1847. It also says he was in the wholesale meat business at the time. 2.  1929 Monroe Directory showing the name Nathan P Cook as a "Meat Ctr" (Cutter). Which I'm assuming is the directories shortened way of saying he was in the meat business. 3.  Cropped enlargement of the 1929 Directory listing. Hence ... Nathan P Cook was born around 1847 and worked in the wholesale meat business during his elderly years. By the way, in the 1912 Monroe Directory he is listed as a "Dairy Employee." Hmm, I wonder whose dairy he worked at? []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the 1912-1913 Directory showing the dairy connection ... at which time he was about 65 years old. This is the extant of what I intend to post about Nathan P Cook. I just wanted to establish his name in connection with Monroe history in general and the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in particular.


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## Bass Assassin

Excellent work Bob. My guess is that NPC&Co was embossed on the earlier bottles, since my OVBW does not have it and we speculate that bottle to be circa 1905-1910.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks. I'm searching the newspaper archives again hoping I can find N. P. Cook involved with some type of bottling business. So far I haven't found anything but will continue to search and let you know if/when I do find something.


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## Bass Assassin

Wonder why the Biedenharn museum would have an early OVBW ( embossed on the bottom with NPC&Co.) on display with the Biedenharn bottles. This bottle would likely be 10 years old before Biedenharn purchased OVBW. Maybe the reason is because there were no Ouachita Coca Cola bottles in the display and this OVBW bottle represented the company that Biedenharn purchased. Its not really important but I'm a little curious why they would display that bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Mark In case you haven't thought of it yet, there is a possibility that Nathan Cook started the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and his grandson, Joseph Renwick, took it over later. The N.P.C. & CO. on the earlier bottles might mean more than just a casual involvement on the part of N.P. It could mean he was the original proprietor. ???


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## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB
Super Member

Re: Monroe La. Straight side coke ! 4 hours ago (permalink)
I searched the U.S. Census for N.P. Cook of Monroe, Louisiana and found the following occupations for him ...

1880 ~ Age 32 ~ Clerk in store
1900 ~ Age 42 ~ Public Market Master
1910 ~ Age 52 ~ Mercantile
 post edited by SODAPOPBOB - 4 hours ago



Bob, according to the above, he easily could have started up OVBW. Being a public market master and then in the mercantile business he probably could foresee a great need for a local bottling  company. Just think, sodas, mineral water, etc.. and probably worked up a deal with local druggists for their bottling needs. Pure speculation of course. Like you, i have a strong feeling he founded OVBW or helped fund it


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here are a few dates and their related information which are confirmed ...

*1900 Census *... Nathan P Cook listed as a Public Market Master
*1900 Census* ... Joseph Renwick listed as a Cotton Buyer
*1900 Census *... Wiley P Renwick listed as a Warehouse Manager 
*1906 Coal Document *... O.V.B.W. in operation at this time and possibly even earlier 
*1910 Census* ... Nathan P Cook listed as being in the Mercantile Business
*1910 Census* ... Joseph Renwick listed as being the Proprietor of a Bottling Works

Of course we do not know for certain when the O.V.B.W. began operation, but the current evidence suggest it was sometime between about 1901 and 1905, with Cecil Munsey claiming in his book it was in 1904. Okay, fine! Close enough! For the sake of argument, let's assume it was 1904. But what I'm wondering now is, who would most likely have had the capital necessary to start up a bottling facility around 1904 ...

1.  A Public Market Master?
2.  A Cotton Buyer?
3.  A Warehouse Manager?
4.  Or perhaps all three - hence the term *& Company*?

And the most important questions of all at the moment, at least for me, are ...

1.  Why was Nathan P Cook's name on the early O.V.B.W. bottles if he was not a major participant in the scheme of things?

2.  If Joseph Renwick was the head honcho at the time, then why wasn't his name on the early bottles?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark The ball is back in your court again. It appears that I've hit a major dead-end because the crucial information and years we need, namely about 1895 to about 1905, just don't seem to exist, at least not on the Internet. For some weird reason the newspapers and directories jump over this time period, which I'm sure is where the vital answers rest. So we're back to the libraries and public records again, which likely can only be found and accessed in Monroe.


----------



## Bass Assassin

I agree, its going to take some library time to fill in the missing info. Do i remember you saying OVBW had a hutchinson bottle?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Do i remember you saying OVBW had a hutchinson bottle?



But this is the only picture I have found of one. Plus, the Hutchbook website list two of them, one made by the Illinois Glass Company and one made by the Root Glass Company 1.  Bottle2.  From Hutchbook


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The first Hutchinson bottle was patented in 1879 and ceased being used for the most part around 1905, although some bottlers continued using them well into the 1920s.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Revised Update ...

*                Joseph Renwick Timeline*

          ( I have never seen a middle name for Joseph and suspect he didn't have one )

                  ( His father was Wiley Polk Renwick ~ Abbreviated here as W.P. )

*1840  *W.P. Renwick born on August 15, 1840 ~ Georgia
*1861  *W.P. Renwick Joins Confederate army during the Civil War
*1863  *W.P. Renwick captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, 1863 ~ Lieutenant
*1868  *Joseph Renwick born on July 4, 1868 ~ Louisiana
(Ironically, Joseph was born five years to the day after his father was captured at Vicksburg)
*1870  *W.P. listed in census as retail grocer
*1873  *W.P. listed as river boat agent 
*1881  *W.P. listed as Monroe city councilmen
*1887  *Joseph employed as firewood supplier for Trousdale Brothers Grocery
*1888  *Joseph self employed as firewood supplier
*1888  Nathan P Cook establishes N.P.C. & CO. Embossed on early O.V.B.W. bottles *
*1889  *Joseph listed as member of the fraternal organization "Ouachita Pelicans" ~ Captain
*1900  *Joseph listed in census as cotton buyer
*1904  *Possible date when Joseph Renwick / O.V.B.W. first bottled Coca Cola in Monroe, La
*1906  *Earliest found (Confirmed) listing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1910  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1912  *Monroe Directory list Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as bottler of Coca Cola
*1912  *Joseph Renwick sells Ouachita Valley Bottling works to Joseph Biedenharn
*1913  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as a dairymen ~ Wildwood Farm Dairy
*1914  *Joseph listed as a dairymen as well as being in the real estate business
*1928  *Wiley Polk Renwick died April 27, 1928 ~ 88 years old
*1930s *Joseph Renwick dairymen and involved in Monroe civic affairs including school board
*1942  *Joseph Renwick died April 24, 1942 ~ 73 Years old


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Meet ...

*Mr. E Fudickar*

If I understand this article correctly in that the abbreviation *& CO. *and the word *firm *mean the same thing, then it tells us the N.P.C.&CO./Firm was comprised of only two individuals as of 1889. If the CO./Firm included any member of the Renwick family at the time, then you'd think it would say as much in the article. Thus, it appears we have another individual who might have been involved in the establishment of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. I haven't researched Mr. Fudickar yet, but plan to.

From ...

The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, La. ~ September 28, 1889


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And let's not forget ... *Mr. Leon Hesdorffer* Because he owned a half interest in the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as of June 1910, then in 1912 when Joseph Biedenharn purchased the O.V.B.W., he didn't just purchase it from Joseph Renwick, but also from Leon Hesdorffer, who was a co-owner of the O.V.B.W. Thus, I need to add the names E. Fudickar and Leon Hesdorffer to the Joseph Renwick timeline. From ... The Monroe News Star ~ June 9, 1910


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Ernest E Fudickar* Born:  1848 ~ Germany1900 Census:  Ice Manufacturer1910 Census:  Manager of Ice Factory. Sons Paul and Frederick employees at Ice Factory1912-1913 Monroe Directory:  President of the Consolidated Ice Company


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Leon Hesdorffer*

Born:  1870 ~ Mississippi
1900  Census:  Saloon Keeper
1910  Census:  Agent / Businessman
1913  Owner/Operator of Hesdorffer's Steam Laundry ~ Monroe


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## SODAPOPBOB

*                       Revised Update ...*


* Joseph Renwick / O.V.B.W. Timeline*

      ( I have never seen a middle name or initial for Joseph and suspect he didn't have one )

                  ( His father was Wiley Polk Renwick ~ Abbreviated here as W.P. )

*1840  *W.P. Renwick born on August 15, 1840 ~ Georgia
*1861  *W.P. Renwick Joins Confederate army during the Civil War
*1862  W.P. Marries Margaret Cook, daughter of Nathan P Cook *
*1863  *W.P. Renwick captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, 1863 ~ Lieutenant
*1868  *Joseph Renwick born on July 4, 1868 ~ Louisiana. *Mother is Margaret [Cook]* 
(Ironically, Joseph was born five years to the day after his father was captured at Vicksburg)
*1870  *W.P. listed in census as retail grocer
*1873  *W.P. listed as river boat agent 
*1881  *W.P. listed as Monroe city councilmen
*1887  *Joseph employed as firewood supplier for Trousdale Brothers Grocery
*1888  *Joseph self employed as firewood supplier
*1888  Nathan P Cook establishes N.P.C. & CO. Embossed on early O.V.B.W. Bottles*
*(Nathan P Cook is the grandfather of Joseph Renwick)*
*1889  Ernest E Fudickar is a member of N.P.C. & CO. along with Nathan P Cook* 
*1889  *Joseph listed as member of the fraternal organization "Ouachita Pelicans" ~ Captain
*1900  *Joseph listed in census as cotton buyer
*1904  *Possible year when Joseph Renwick first bottled Coca Cola in Monroe, La.
*1906  *Earliest found (Confirmed) listing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1910  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
*1910  Leon Hesdorffer purchases half interest of O.V.B.W. from Joseph Renwick*
*1912  *Monroe Directory list Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as bottler of Coca Cola
*1912  *Joseph Renwick sells Ouachita Valley Bottling works to Joseph Biedenharn
*1913  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as a dairymen ~ Wildwood Farm Dairy
*1914  *Joseph listed as a dairymen as well as being in the real estate business
*1928  *Wiley Polk Renwick died April 27, 1928 ~ 88 years old
*1930s *Joseph Renwick dairymen and involved in Monroe civic affairs including school board
*1942  *Joseph Renwick died April 24, 1942 ~ 73 Years old


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

RECAP...

       Early Monroe, Louisiana Coca-Cola Bottles

Irregardless as to when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was founded and who the individuals were that established it, as it stands now we only have two reliable sources to fall back on for determining when Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe, Louisiana ...

The first source comes from Cecil Munsey's 1972  book, "The Illustrated Guide To The Collectibles Of Coca Cola," in which he states that a lot of the information for the book came from the Coca Cola Company archives, including his claim that Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe in *1904*.

The second source comes from the Coca Cola Company 75th anniversary bottle issued for Monroe which indicates a start-up date of *1907*.

The only other confirmation I'm aware of as to when Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe prior to Joseph Biedenharn's arrival comes from the 1912-1913 (Compiled in *1911*) Monroe City Directory, in which it states the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works were "Bottlers of Coca Cola."

*~ * ~*

In case you're wondering where I'm going with this, its to point out that even if we had a confirmed date for when Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe and whether that date was 1904, 1907, or some other date, we still have the task of determining when the amber and aqua Coca Cola bottles were made. Despite the research that's been done about the this-and-that aspect of early Coca Cola bottles, which is somewhat confusing to say the least, all we really know at the present is that the amber and aqua bottles were "most likely" made between 1904 and 1911. But is that an acceptable date range or is there something we've overlooked that will help narrow down the date even more? And what about the N.P.C. & CO. that's on some of the early O.V.B.W. bottles? Is there something about that which we've overlooked? Why is the N.P.C. & CO. embossed on some of the early O.V.B.W. bottles but not on the amber and aqua Coca Cola bottles?

As Mark and others have been saying throughout the course of this thread, there seem to be a lot more questions than there are answers. But even with that said, I for one believe that a bottle in the hand is worth more than two bottles in the bush! In other words, I'm confident we will find the missing links and that the bottles themselves will be the one's who will eventually speak for themselves. But as Bill Porter said in his article, we need to listen closely if we want to hear what the bottles have to say.


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## Bass Assassin

Well said Bob. Your research has been fantastic and i can at least speak for myself and say i have learned so much about OVBW, Joseph Renwick, Biedenharn and the first coca cola bottler in Monroe. I too believe there's still a vast amount of information left to be uncovered. I also believe that I will have to put in some time here in Monroe researching to find those answers. The most important facts for me to find now are:
1 what year was coca cola first bottled in Monroe
2 what does the first Monroe coca cola bottle look like
3 when were our examples made
4 is this script coca cola hutch i just found the only one of its kind  (just kidding)

These are just a few questions i would like to have the answers to but i realize i may never know. One thing i do know.. Joseph Biedenharn was not the first coca cola bottler in Monroe, LA


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## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> The most important facts for me to find now are:
> 1 what year was coca cola first bottled in Monroe ~ *1904*
> 2 what does the first Monroe coca cola bottle look like ~ *Its amber and identical to ours*
> 3 when were our examples made ~ *1904*



Ditto / Well said! Your questions are the same ones I have, so I took a stab at answering them. If I'm truly psychic like when I guessed Nathan Cook's first name, then maybe it'll work here as well.


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## SODAPOPBOB

[h2]                                                *[font="georgia,palatino"]1904[/font]*[/h2]*[font="georgia,palatino"]                         ???[/font]*


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I'm listening and trying to hear what the bottles are saying. This is the first time we have seen the bases of our bottles side-by-side. I'm curious if the embossing is identical or just similar. I won't know myself until this is posted and will comment later. But one thing I already noticed on my bottle is how the *LI *in *BOTTLING *sort of looks like a *U* ... 1.  Mine2.  Yours


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the script for comparison ... 1.  Mine2.  Yours


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Comments ... After studying the characteristics of both bottles, and taking into account they were blown in a mold and not machine made, coupled with what I know about pre-machine bottle making, I'd venture to say both bottles were blown in the same mold. Unlike machine era bottles that were made in multiple molds, hand blown bottles were usually made in a single mold that was used over and over again. The attached picture is described as follows and gives us a good idea of how bottles were made in 1908 ... This great 1908 image is from a West Virginia  glass factory and shows a "gaffer" (blower) at work to the far left with his  crew. This is a typical mouth-blown shop crew which included the "mold  tender" boy (lower right) with a set of "tongs" in his right hand, the  "gatherer" (behind gaffer) with the next gob of glass for the gaffer on a second  blowpipe, and the "snapper up" (to the right standing) with a snap case tool in  his left hand. The caption to the photo is:  _*"Glass* *Blower* and Mold Boy. Boy has 4 1/2  hours of this at a stretch, then an hour's rest and 4 1/2 more: cramped  position. Day shift one week: night shift next. Grafton, W. Va. Location:  Grafton, West Virginia"_ ( Lewis Hine photo, Library of Congress).


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## SODAPOPBOB

Cropped close up of mold from 1908 photograph ...  Notice that the top portion of the bottle appears to have a Crown finish/closure. I suspect when this picture was taken that the bottle was already formed and the mold crew were simply posing for the photographer.


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## goodman1966

This has been an incredible journey in knowledge and history in our hobby ! Thank you Bob, Mark and all others who contributed !  This just goes to show us you never know what you may find out there. I guess this is why I never pass by an antique place, yard sale or flea market without going in for a look around, you never know what you may find !   Mitch


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## steviecheri

Have been thoroughly enjoying reading through your Monroe, LA info and discoveries. I am writing to confirm that there is indeed a OVBW hutch made by Illinois Glass and as soon as I figure out how to upload a photo of the one I have, I will do so. Additionally, I want to throw the name of yet ANOTHER Monroe bottler of the same era into the the mix: C. FONTANA'S BOTTLING WORKS. Again, I will post a photo ASAP. Has anyone found any info. on this one?


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## SODAPOPBOB

steviecheri : Welcome to the forum. I'm looking forward to seeing the hutch bottle. To post pictures, start by clicking on (Open Full Version) which will change the screen and a "Upload file(s) to the server" box will appear at the bottom. Click on that and follow the various steps from your photo files. I haven't been able to find very much on C. Fontana's Bottling Works, but I did find this from ... The Monroe News-Star  ~  February 17, *1913*


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## SODAPOPBOB

From Ancestry.com ... *Charles "Cologero" Edward Fontana* Born:  August 12, 1867 - ItalyArrived U.S. : 1890 - Age 22Married: 1894 to Felicia SciambaNaturalized: 19141913-1914 Monroe Directory: Grocery Store1920 Census: Proprietor Grocery Store - Married to Felicia - Ten childrenDied: September 11, 1934 - Monroe, Louisiana - Age 67


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The Fontana grocery store was located at ... *416 Olive - Monroe, Louisiana*


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## SODAPOPBOB

From Google Earth ... As near as I can determine, this building should be at *416 Olive Street - Monroe, Louisiana*


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The newspaper article says the bottling plant was "adjacent" to the grocery at 416 Olive and assume that means "across the street" which I will look for next.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In this view you can see the Grocery Store on the left and the building "across the street" which appears to be a likely candidate for the bottling works ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

Or does "adjacent" mean "directly next to" on the same side of the street?


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## Bass Assassin

So happy to see this post brought back. Adjacent means next to, parallel.  There is an O.V.B.W. Hutch currently listed on eBay. It is embossed N.P.G. &Co. Only one bid thus far.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Greatd find. Here's the link and pic from eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/361174389963?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true If N.P. & G. Co. is a glass maker, I can't find it listed and suspect part of it might be a typo by the seller ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the seller's description ... This is an old, 6 3/4 inch , aqua hutch that is embossed OUACHITA VALLEY BOTTLING WORKS MONROE, LA.  inside a slug plate.  Panels around the base.  Back has REGISTERED MUST NOT BE SOLD across the full back.. Base is embossed N P & G Co and something appears to be double stamped.  No chips or cracks but does have case wear and some inside stain.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Duh ... I forgot about this for Nathan P. Cook & Co. Which indicates the eBay seller did read it wrong.


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## Bass Assassin

I'm pretty sure he did. Not a bad bottle to have but its a bit high


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## SODAPOPBOB

New member steviecheri said his/her bottle was made by Illinois Glass, which is what the I.G. Co. stands for in my last image. Which means there is still a "ROOT" Hutchinson bottle out there somewhere.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Not a bad bottle to have but its a bit high



 Mark: Why do you think the current bid of $49.99 is a "bit high" ?


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## Bass Assassin

Thinking in the $30-35 range would be a more realistic price. But hey, if he's got a buyer at $50 then my opinion don't mean squat


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark: Thanks. I might bid on it but haven't decided yet - it depends on what develops over the next 24 hours. By the way, I sent the seller a request for a picture of the base. Plus I asked him if it had ROOT or I.G. Co. on it anywhere.


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## SODAPOPBOB

The same seller has a Biedenharn Candy Company hutch - But no bids which start at $400.00  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Coca-Cola-hutch-BIEDENHARN-CANDY-CO-VICKSBURG-MISS-bottle-Coca-Cola/361174407479?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27673%26meid%3D39467b1e82874017adae9674a7a1bfc3%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11378%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D361174389963&rt=nc Description: This is a very rare aqua 1894 original hutch that is embossed BIEDENHARN CANDY CO VICKSBURG MISS on the side.  Registered near the shoulder.  7 1/4 inches tall.  It is listed in   PETRETTI'S  COCA COLA collectibles.  This is an original old bottle.  This company was the first to bottle COCA COLA.  Base is embossed B C CO and on the back near bottom is embossed ROOT 471.  No chips or cracks but does have some inside stain and some case wear.  Rare find.  Could be cleaned.


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## steviecheri

Dang! This is better than Christmas morning! Alright y'all, I have so many dates and numbers and names in my head...but I REALLY hope what I'm about to post will answer some remaining questions for y'all so I can read the CliffNotes version which doesn't give me nearly the headache! (Seriously, THANK you for all the time and effort you have obviously put into this.. Crossing my fingers I can upload pix. Please forgive the quality. I'm supposed to be sorting! 
First photo is the IG bottle...front, back and heel


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## steviecheri

This is the bottom of the IG, and the next two are full view and closeup of some of what i found this morning...the Root 539


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## steviecheri

539 heel and bottom


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## steviecheri

And last but not least the ouachita coca cola bottling co.-Root 1461. Sorry they didn't get a bath first. These have been in a shed for at least the last 20 years, along with about 2000 others. There are some other Monroe Coke (and other locations) bottles I don't know what to make
of. I will try to get photos soon


----------



## hemihampton

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Thinking in the $30-35 range would be a more realistic price. But hey, if he's got a buyer at $50 then my opinion don't mean squat



 I bid $50 on a Wyandotte hutch with mug base on ebay I wanted a couple of weeks ago. I thought my $50 was high & I'd get high bid but some clown outsniped me at last second. $ 50 on a hutch would be high only if these are common & seen all the time which I don't know on this particular hutch? LEON.


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## Bass Assassin

Nice response Hemihampton. I don't think they are rare. ...steviecheri, where are you from?


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## steviecheri

Southeast Arkansas.


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## Bass Assassin

What town in southeast,AR ?


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## Bass Assassin

Also, steviecheri, did you digs these bottles in southeast,AR ?


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## steviecheri

I'm in Eudora...bought a collection of 50+ years, roughly 5-6,000 soda and fruit jars, with a few whiskey and medicine bottles mixed in. And about 2,000 marbles. I've educated myself on the fruit jars...the sodas are a work in progress, and at the rate I'm going I figure the marbles will wind up being the kids' problem. Ha


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The eBay seller responded to my inquiry and posted these two additional pictures ...


----------



## Bass Assassin

There are some great places to dig in Eudora. I have family that's been there for 150 years. Not many of them are left now. They've moved away and died off. There's a couple of old family home places south of town on hwy 8 going west.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now I'm trying to date the Hutchinson bottles marked with N.P.C. & Co. The newspaper clipping is from The Ouachita Telegraph ~ Monroe, La. ~ September 28, *1889*, which only establishes an early date for N.P.C. & Co., which may or not be when they got into the bottling business. But I'm thinking 1889 might be close. Surely the Hutchinson bottles predate the crowns and Nathan P. Cook's ownership of Ouachita Valley Bottling Works predates Joseph Renwick's ownership.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Reminder ...* http://files.usgwarchives.net/la/ouachita/bios/renwick.txt

In December of 1862, Mr. Renwick was married to Margaret, daughter of N.P. Cook of Yazoo county, Mississippi.  Which means Joseph Renwick was Nathan Cook's son-in-law


----------



## Bass Assassin

I agree, the hutchison bottles predate the others. If you go back earlier in the thread I posted a picture of a crown top ovbw bottle that does not have the npc& co embossing. I am now wondering when it was made. I thought it could have been made about the same time our coca colas were made


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Another reminder (which I forgot about) ... The Root Glass Company was established in *1901*, so the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works Root Hutchinson bottle, or any other Root bottle, cannot date any earlier than that.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ... steviecheri's Ouachita Valley Bottling Works hutch was made by Illinois Glass. Because Illinois Glass was established in *1873, *that puts a slightly different light on things.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the basic skinny about Illinois Glass ... I.G.CO. ... Illinois Glass Company, Alton, Illinois (1873-1929). This mark was used _possibly_ as early as the mid-1870s to around 1900, embossed on both bases and heels of bottles, and was also used for several years after 1900 primarily on the lower _heels_ of their soda bottles (since the base would frequently be reserved for the logo or initials of the bottling company a bottle was made for). Use of the mark on certain soda bottles is known to have extended at least to 1909, perhaps 1911.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Major Correction ... It wasn't Joseph Renwick who married Margaret Cook in 1862, it was Joseph's father, Wiley P. Renwick. Which means N.P. Cook was Joseph Renwick's grandfather.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just doing some comparisons and trying to determine which of the two Hutchinson bottles was made first ... 1.  Base on steviecheri's Illinois Glass Hutch2.  Base on eBay Root Hutch (1901 at the earliest)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just noticed steviecheri's Hutch has a small "o" in "Co."  Whereas the eBay Hutch has a large "O" in "CO."  Different glass makers, of course, but possibly a clue to dating them.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

According to this Bill Lockhart article about the history of Illinois Glass, the I.G. Co. mark was used between 1895 and 1911. Of particular interest is where he states the I.G. Co. marks accompanied by numbers, such as the 477 on steviecheri's bootle, are catalog numbers. He goes on to say that every known combination of the I.G. Co. mark accompanied by a number was listed in the 1903 Illinois Glass Company catalog.  Read the article for yourselves and see what you make of it.   http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/IGCo_BLockhart.pdf [ Attachment ] steviecherie's Hutch with I.G. Co. 477


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Especially read the part where Bill discusses *1903 *in connection with the I.G. Co. mark and see what you think he is referring to.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For reasons I can't quite put my finger on nor explain at the moment, I'm leaning toward the possibility that both Hutchinson bottles ( Root / I.G. Co. ) date to around ...


*Circa 1903*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Revised Update ...
> 
> *                Joseph Renwick Timeline*
> 
> ( I have never seen a middle name for Joseph and suspect he didn't have one )
> 
> ( His father was Wiley Polk Renwick ~ Abbreviated here as W.P. )
> 
> *1840  *W.P. Renwick born on August 15, 1840 ~ Georgia
> *1861  *W.P. Renwick Joins Confederate army during the Civil War
> *1863  *W.P. Renwick captured at Vicksburg, Mississippi on July 4, 1863 ~ Lieutenant*1862  *Wiley P. Renwick marries Margaret Cook. N.P. Cook was Joseph Renwick's grandfather.
> *1868  *Joseph Renwick born on July 4, 1868 ~ Louisiana
> (Ironically, Joseph was born five years to the day after his father was captured at Vicksburg)
> *1870  *W.P. listed in census as retail grocer
> *1873  *W.P. listed as river boat agent
> *1881  *W.P. listed as Monroe city councilmen
> *1887  *Joseph employed as firewood supplier for Trousdale Brothers Grocery
> *1888  *Joseph self employed as firewood supplier*1888  *Nathan P Cook establishes N.P.C. & CO.
> *1889  *Joseph listed as member of the fraternal organization "Ouachita Pelicans" ~ Captain
> *1900  *Joseph listed in census as cotton buyer*1903  ???*
> *1904  *Possible date when Joseph Renwick / O.V.B.W. first bottled Coca Cola in Monroe, La
> *1906  *Earliest found (Confirmed) listing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
> *1910  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as president of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works
> *1912  *Monroe Directory list Ouachita Valley Bottling Works as bottler of Coca Cola
> *1912  *Joseph Renwick sells Ouachita Valley Bottling works to Joseph Biedenharn
> *1913  *Monroe Directory list Joseph as a dairymen ~ Wildwood Farm Dairy
> *1914  *Joseph listed as a dairymen as well as being in the real estate business
> *1928  *Wiley Polk Renwick died April 27, 1928 ~ 88 years old
> *1930s *Joseph Renwick dairymen and involved in Monroe civic affairs including school board
> *1942  *Joseph Renwick died April 24, 1942 ~ 73 Years old


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This link is to a *1903 *Illinois Glass Company catalog and includes soda bottles on *Pages 199-245*. The only bummer is, there's no way that I can see to search specific pages and you have to click through them one at a time. I haven't done it yet, but as near as I can determine it will require at least 15+ minutes of clicking to get to page 199. Various Hutchinson bottles are no doubt listed and should show the catalog/ordering numbers such as the 477 on steviecheri's bottle. When I find the time and patients to click through all of the necessary pages, I'll see what I can find. In the meantime others might like to check it out. Here's the link ...   http://www.sodasandbeers.com/ManufactureCatalogues/IllinoisGlassCo/1903/SABManufCatIllinoisGlassCo1903FC.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I was toying with the catalog and discovered it intentionally jumps over certain pages, so it only took about five minutes to find page 204 where the 477 Hutch is listed. I'm guessing the reason it jumps over a lot of pages is because they are not relevant to beer and soda bottle collectors, which is what the website is primarily devoted to. Anyway, here's a direct link to page 204 that shows the 477 bottle, which I have also attached an image of below ... http://www.sodasandbeers.com/ManufactureCatalogues/IllinoisGlassCo/1903/SABManufCatIllinoisGlassCo1903P204.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's the text portion from Page 204 that tells us a little more about bottle No. 477 ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And here's steviecheri's bottle for comparison with the 477 bottle in the 1903 catalog ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> RECAP...
> 
> Early Monroe, Louisiana Coca-Cola Bottles
> 
> Irregardless as to when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was founded and who the individuals were that established it, as it stands now we only have two reliable sources to fall back on for determining when Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe, Louisiana ...
> 
> The first source comes from Cecil Munsey's 1972  book, "The Illustrated Guide To The Collectibles Of Coca Cola," in which he states that a lot of the information for the book came from the Coca Cola Company archives, including his claim that Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe in *1904*.
> 
> The second source comes from the Coca Cola Company 75th anniversary bottle issued for Monroe which indicates a start-up date of *1907*.
> 
> The only other confirmation I'm aware of as to when Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe prior to Joseph Biedenharn's arrival comes from the 1912-1913 (Compiled in *1911*) Monroe City Directory, in which it states the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works were "Bottlers of Coca Cola."
> 
> *~ * ~*
> 
> In case you're wondering where I'm going with this, its to point out that even if we had a confirmed date for when Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe and whether that date was 1904, 1907, or some other date, we still have the task of determining when the amber and aqua Coca Cola bottles were made. Despite the research that's been done about the this-and-that aspect of early Coca Cola bottles, which is somewhat confusing to say the least, all we really know at the present is that the amber and aqua bottles were "most likely" made between 1904 and 1911. But is that an acceptable date range or is there something we've overlooked that will help narrow down the date even more? And what about the N.P.C. & CO. that's on some of the early O.V.B.W. bottles? Is there something about that which we've overlooked? Why is the N.P.C. & CO. embossed on some of the early O.V.B.W. bottles but not on the amber and aqua Coca Cola bottles?
> 
> As Mark and others have been saying throughout the course of this thread, there seem to be a lot more questions than there are answers. But even with that said, I for one believe that a bottle in the hand is worth more than two bottles in the bush! In other words, I'm confident we will find the missing links and that the bottles themselves will be the one's who will eventually speak for themselves. But as Bill Porter said in his article, we need to listen closely if we want to hear what the bottles have to say.



            I'm reposting my own quote to draw specific attention the part where I said ... "The only other confirmation I'm aware of as to when Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe prior to Joseph Biedenharn's arrival comes from the 1912-1913 (Compiled in *1911*) Monroe City Directory, in which it states the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works were "Bottlers of Coca Cola."                       Well, I just found another confirmation for 1911 which is from ...                                   The Monroe News-Star  ~  January 6, *1911*                   ( So far this is the earliest "newspaper ad" I have been able to find )


----------



## Bass Assassin

Great research Bob. So if I may ask a question.  There are the OVBW hutch bottles and crown top bottles that are embossed with the N P C & Co.  Then there are crown top bottles (including our cokes) that are embossed OVBW but no NPC& Co embossing. (Matter of fact I've yet to see a coke with the NPC&Co unless I'm overlooking something). Without re-reading the entire thread, do you remember if you ever saw anything concerning when the NPC&Co was dissolved? If NPC&Co was on the earlier bottles, then I can see your point about the hutches with that embossing being made at least prior to 1904(when Munsey stated coke was first bottled in Monroe). I think the answer is simply trying to find when NPC&Co was dissolved.  Feel free to correct me if I'm overlooking that you have already stated that year.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark: First of all, I just won the Hutch bottle on eBay. I probably paid too much for it ($62.54) but it will make a nice addition to go-with my other two OVBW bottles. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. As for when N.P.C & CO. was dissolved, I'm not sure but will do some more research and see what I can find. As far as the bottles themselves are concerned, the only thing I know for certain is the ROOT bottles had to of been made in 1901 or later because 1901 is when the Root Glass Company was established. I'll be back!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The ROOT bottle I won on eBay has *N.P.C. & Co. *embossed on the base, as does steviecheri's I.G. Co. bottle. But which of the two was made first, I do not know.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Congratulations Bob in winning the bottle.  I'm betting the Illinois Glass is the earlier bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Congratulations Bob in winning the bottle. I'm betting the Illinois Glass is the earlier bottle.



Thanks - I was thinking the same thing about Illinois Glass being the earlier of the two, but just how early is the $62.54 question. If we are going to find anything related to Nathan P Cook / N.P.C. & CO. prior to 1910 it won't be from the newspaper archives I'm subscribed to because it only list newspapers for Monroe starting in April of 1910. Ancestry.com has various information on Nathan P Cook such as Census listings and Directories, but none of it mentions his involvement with N.P.C & CO., nor anything related to bottling. I'm beginning to think he was a silent partner, especially when you take into account his other business ventures over the years which indicate he had his fingers in a lot of different pies. The one major clue I keep going back to is the fact that Nathan P Cook was Joseph Renwick's grandfather. But even with that said it doesn't explain why N.P.C. & CO. is embossed on most if not all of the early OVBW bottles. Maybe Nathan was just the "money man" and nothing more.  ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark : Here's a little reminder as to when N.P.C. & CO. was established. It's from ... The Ouachita Telegraph (newspaper) Monroe, Louisiana  ~ June 16, 1888 ( I'm going to re-research the Telegraph listings and see what I can find)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The Telegraph newspaper has dozens if not hundreds of listings for N.P. Cook & Co. The bummer is, the listings only go to 1889 and that's way too early for anything related to the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. But I'll say this much, Nathan Cook must have been a millionaire. He was involved in a lot of major business ventures including cotton, shipping, marketing, warehousing, etc; etc. He even invented and patented some type of harrowing plow in 1889. It wouldn't surprise me to eventually discover he was the money-man who helped finance his grandson, Joseph Renwick, in starting up a bottling company in ( what year ? )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

If in fact Joseph Renwick started the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works on his own, but possibly with finical help from his grandfather, Nathan P Cook, my best guess as to when the business was established would be sometime between 1901 and 1909. The reason I say this is because ... 1.  The 1900 U.S. Census list Joseph's employment as a "Cotton Buyer"2.  The 1910 U.S. Census list Joseph's employment as a "Bottling Works" And right smack-dab in the middle of those years is the year 1905. So my educated guess would be Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was established in ...                                                      CIRCA  1905


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I am discounting Cecil Munsey's claim where he said Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe in 1904. Instead I'm going with the Coca Cola Company's claim (Anniversary Bottle) of 1907. In my opinion the Coca Cola Company date is accurate because they should know better than anyone. Plus, I feel the 1907 date fits better into the scheme of things. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!  []


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Thus, I'm circa dating the Monroe bottles as follows .... 1. I.G.Co. Hutch = Circa 19052. ROOT Hutch = Circa 19063. Amber Coca Cola = Circa 19074. Aqua Coca Cola = Circa 1908-1911


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the earliest documentation I am aware of for "Ouachita Valley Bottling Works" which is dated 1906 and what I referred to earlier as "the coal document"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And yes, for some weird reason the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works sold coal over the years. Check this out from ... The Monroe News-Star  ~  January 10, 1911


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Note of interest ... The coal ad I just posted was published exactly 104 years and two days ago!


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Thus, I'm circa dating the Monroe bottles as follows ....
> 
> 1. I.G.Co. Hutch = Circa 1905
> 2. ROOT Hutch = Circa 1906
> 3. Amber Coca Cola = Circa 1907
> 4. Aqua Coca Cola = Circa 1908-1911



I think you may be pretty close on these dates Bob. Personally, I was hoping Munsey was correct with the 1804 date. Until we can prove otherwise, I think these dates you listed above are about the best we can do. Good work by the way.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Sorry, typo. What I meant to say was I was hoping Munsey's date of 1904 with coca cola in Monroe was correct


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:
			
		

> Here are the pics of the 75th anniversary Monroe bottle. The book has only one image. It is clear glass.[attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=0;663089&where=message&f=coke monroe 75th annv 1.jpg[/attachImg] [attachImg]https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=1;663089&where=message&f=coke monroe 75th info.jpg[/attachImg]



 From Page 19  ~  1907 / 1982 = 75th Anniversary


----------



## Dean

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> This is the earliest documentation I am aware of for "Ouachita Valley Bottling Works" which is dated 1906 and what I referred to earlier as "the coal document"


I believe this was a common practice at the time.  These 3 hutchs are all just north of Monroe in Southern Arkansas.  Dean


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Dean: Thanks for the information and pictures - very interesting. It helps put things into perspective.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I won't know if this article is readable until I post it. If it's not readable, save it to your files and check it out there. Of particular interest are the two portions I cropped where in the first one it uses the word *"steam" *in connection with the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. Also notice where it says Joseph Biedenharn bought the bottling works in 1912 but didn't move to Monroe and start operating until 1913. The article is from ...

The Monroe Morning World  ~  June 15, 1952

The first cropped portion (bottom of column two) leads directly into the next portion (top of column three)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Notice the wording where it says ... *Machinery in the first Monroe Coca-Cola plant ...* It sounds like they're saying a Coca Cola plant was in existence prior to Biedenharn taking it over. If this is correct, then its the first I've seen where they admit that Coca Cola was bottled in Monroe prior to 1912-1913


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By doing the math, this article also places the Biedenharn start-up date as 1913 ... 1936-  23____= 1913 From ... The Monroe News-Star  ~  October 29, 1936


----------



## Bass Assassin

Nothing gets that bottle cleaner than the old trusty lead shot...lol. The "existing" plant consisted of 1 foot-operated bottling machine.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Error


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The following might not make a lot of sense, but I'll give it my best shot anyway ... 
For those of us who are familiar with the Bottle Research Group (BRG) and the many articles by Bill Lockhart, who is a leading member of the group, then you will probably agree they have done some of the most extensive bottle research ever documented. If their findings regarding the Root Glass Company are accurate, which I believe them to be, then the following information should shed some light on this topic. According to their findings, the Root Glass Company was established in 1901 and their earliest bottle marks were ...


*1901-1906  =  RGCo *and *RGCO   *(small 'o' and large 'O' in Co / CO) 

And then later they changed their mark to ...

*1906-1909 =  **Root     *(script)  
*1906-1931 =  ROOT   *(capital letters)

Because the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works (Hutchinson) bottle I purchased has the ROOT mark in capital letters, I am inclined to believe it dates to no earlier than about *1906*. I realize the BRG uses 'ca' for 'circa' and that circa means approximate, but I also know the BRG base their findings on empirical evidence, which means having examined actual bottles and not just relying on guesswork. In other words, I believe it is safe to assume my OVBW Hutch was made in 1905 at the absolute earliest. In conjunction with this, I also believe it is safe to assume that Ouachita Valley Bottling Works used Hutchinson bottles before they started using Crown bottles. Even though much of this remains somewhat speculative and inconclusive, I am currently of the opinion the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works crown Coca Cola bottles date to no earlier than 1906, and possibly 1907, which is when the Coca Cola Company 75th anniversary bottle indicates Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe, Louisiana. As for the I.G. Co. (Illinois Glass Company) Hutchinson bottles, I'm not sure what year they were made, other than to say I believe they too were used before the Crown bottles.

Here's the link to the Bottle Research Group chart where I found the attached Root images. The chart also has a ton of other glass maker marks/dates. Check it out!     


http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/alllogotableslow.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Recap ...* Thus, I'm circa dating the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottles as follows ....

1. I.G.Co. Hutch = Circa 1905 (which I think is the year OVBW was established) 
2. ROOT Hutch = Circa 1906
3. Amber/crown Coca Cola = Circa 1907 (which I think is the year OVBW first bottled Coca Cola)  
4. Aqua/crown Coca Cola = Circa 1908-1911 5. OVBW sold to the Biedenharn's = 19126. Biedenharn's began operation = 1913


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still looking for specific dates and found this notice. It is the best reference I have seen so far as to when Joe Renwick sold the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. This identical ad appeared in numerous publications between February and March of 1912. Even though we already know the bottling works was sold in 1912, this narrows it down to the early part of the year. Because it is from February of 1912, I suspect negotiations between Joseph Biedenharn and Joseph Renwick probably began sometime in mid to late 1911. This is the earliest notice of many and is from ... The Monroe News-Star  ~  *February 15, 1912* (The latest notices I can find identical to this one is dated March 16, 1912)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In case you forgot or are wondering about the part where it says ... "In selling out *my interest *in the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ..." Please be reminded that Leon Hesdorffer purchased a half-interest in 1910 From ... The Monroe News-Star  ~  June 9, 1910


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still digging for that elusive "start date" for the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works. But this should answer the question once and for all time regarding the *end/sold/purchase date *... The Monroe News-Star  ~  *February 12, 1912*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I received my OVBW Hutch bottle today and giving it a grade of *8.5-9.0 *There are no cracks, chips, or major case ware. The only thing keeping it from being a 10.0 are a few flea bites and some minor rubs. The glass is a clear and shiny aqua color and has numerous bubbles. I will post some pictures of it soon. The only thing the eBay seller failed to see/mention, is that next to the word ROOT is the number 559. I have already researched the number and there is nothing about it I was able to find that indicates a specific date. Root's numbering system seemed to have more to do with locations than it did with dates. Of the references I was able to find for the number 559, all of the bottles were from Louisiana. However, this is not conclusive information and even the Bottle Research Group hasn't got it all figured out yet. I'll be back!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Long Story Short ...*

In an attempt to accurately date my ROOT 559, Hutchinson, Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle, I accessed every available resource I am aware of and am 100% confident it dates to ...

 *1905 ... At the earliest !*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm also attempting to date steviecheri's * IG. CO 477 *OVBW Hutchinson bottle and my preliminary findings are pointing to ...  Circa *1903*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

steviecheri : Please look extremely close on the heel or base of your I.G. CO. 477 OVBW Hutch and see if it is embossed with any numbers such as *01, 02, 03 , etc.*  Thanks Bob


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, can we see the hutch you just purchased?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I upped the grade to a solid *9.0* 1.  FRONT2.  BACK3.  BASE


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If you look close at the base you'll see where the *C. & *are double-stamped


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just found this ad and still researching it, but at the moment I'm about 95% certain it's exactly what it appears to be. From ... The Monroe Morning World  ~  June 15, 1952


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm trying to make out what it says on the wood cases in the lower right portion of the 1905 picture. The cases/writing appear to be upside-down in the original image so I inverted it in the second attachment. 1.  Original2.  Inverted


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Minor error. Please stand by ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

You'll never believe where I found the 1952 Ad I just posted. It was directly under the article I posted four days ago on Page 25 of this thread, Post #500. The reason I didn't see it earlier is because the archives only zeroed in on the article and I didn't think to look below it for more. The only reason I found it now is because I was looking for something else when the Ad popped up and I caught a glimpse of the 1905. As near as I can determine it's saying that Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe, Louisiana in *1905* [ Attachment ] Full page showing both the article and the ad ~ Monroe Morning World ~ June 15, 1952


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*        []!!! 1905 !!![]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*By the way ...* I'm still 100% confident my OVBW Hutch dates to no earlier than 1905. I now believe OVBW transitioned from Hutch bottles to Crowns in 1905. In conjunction with this I am now dating the amber Coca Cola bottles to 1905 as well and believe they were the first Coca Cola bottle used by OVBW.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. The reason why *N.P.C. & CO.* is on the Hutch bottles but not on the Coca Cola bottles could have something to do with the franchise contract. Its possible that in order to become a franchisee with Coca Cola that certain requirements were involved, including what was and what was not allowed to be embossed on their bottles. Hence, the  N.P.C. & CO. was eliminated and only the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, Monroe, LA. was allowed to remain on the base.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Wow! This is a game changer. So Mumsey was very close with the 1904 date. Thanks for the pictures of the hitch, very nice bottle and in fantastic condition. I am jealous.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Like they say, where there's one bottle there's bound to be more!  Check out this link. Its a shortcut to the 1952 Ad I found. It works for me because I'm a subscriber, but it might not work for others. ??? http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/88063776/ Thanks again for bringing the Hutch to my attention - it's now my new best friend! [] But it still doesn't answer the question as to when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was established.


----------



## hemihampton

Nice Hutch, Nice Research. LEON.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> *Coca Cola Bottling vs. Coca Cola Franchise*
> 
> To take this discussion one step further and hopefully shed some light on the dates, I discovered that in order to become a Coca Cola *franchise* bottler in the early days that a prospective bottler had to meet certain requirements, which were ...
> 
> "The requirements to obtain a franchise were to purchase ten shares of Coca Cola Company stock and to sell 200 gallons of Coca Cola syrup, each year, for three consecutive years, after which the franchise would be granted."
> 
> If this was true when Joseph Renwick first started bottling Coca Cola in Monroe, then it might explain why the 75th anniversary bottle is dated 1907 but in reality Joseph Renwick actually started bottling Coca Cola in 1904, which would account for the *three year *gap. It could be the various anniversary bottles indicate when the franchise contract was secured and not necessarily when the product was first bottled. I plan to research this further, but it appears this *might *explain a few things regarding the debate involving the dates.
> 
> I'm not sure what one share of Coca Cola cost in 1904-1907, but in 1919 they were selling for $40.00 per share. If the dividends from that single share were reinvested over the years, it would be worth $9.8 million dollars in 2012.


 *I'm still a little confused as to why the 75th anniversary bottle indicates 1907 as the year Coca Cola was first bottled in Monroe. That's why I'm reposting this from Page 18 of this thread, Post #342. I plan to do some more research on this aspect and see what I can find. At the moment I don't recall where I got the franchise information, but will go back and see if I can find it again.   *


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

In the meantime, check out this cropped image from the 1952 Ad. Is that a paper label I see on a bottle where I placed the red arrow?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought it would take hours to find the franchise information again but it only took about five minutes. Notice where it mentions a "letter" the prospective franchisee was to receive ...  http://trentonbtlgwrks.com/xhtml-css/Gallery/coke_panelssmall.pdf


----------



## Bass Assassin

The 3 year waiting period fits the time schedule perfectly.  I'm amazed at the information you keep digging up. That picture sure looks like a paper label to me. Great work Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Sometimes we need little reminders (at least I do) to help us better visualize 
how things were way-back-when before motorized transportation was introduced. 
This snippet is from the 1952 article and refers to Joe Renwick's method of 
distributing Coca Cola in 1905 prior to the Biedenharn's taking over the 
operation in 1912-13. I find this especially interesting because my research 
involving early Cola Cola franchise agreements defined a bottler's territory as 
being the area in which a horse draw wagon could travel to and from in a single 
day. I'm not sure how far such a distance might have been, but when you take 
into account the time required to stop and make the allotted deliveries, etc; my 
guess would be that a typical territory in 1905 would be a radius of no more 
than about twenty miles from the bottling plant. Which means Mark's and my amber 
OVBW Coca Cola bottles probably took a few wagon rides in their day.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

During the course of my research in an attempt to better understand the early Coca Cola franchise agreements and how they worked, I came across the following website that I believe contains the entire chapter titled "The Cola Wars" from Richard Tedlow's 1990 book ...

*                  New and Improved - The Story of Mass Marketing in America*

Even thought the chapter doesn't include the specific franchise details I was looking for, it is hands-down the most comprehensive history of the Coca Cola Company I have ever read. I'm not sure who Richard Tedlow is or where he got his information, but I consider the Cola Wars chapter as a must read for all Coca Cola enthusiast. In fact, I'm so impressed with what Mr. Tedlow has to say that I found and ordered a copy of the book on eBay that I purchased for only $3.97, which even included free shipping. By the way, there is at least one more copy available on eBay at that price for anyone interested in purchasing it. But before doing that, check out the chapter on the following link and see for yourself what I mean about it being comprehensive. I'm hoping the book itself will explain where Mr. Tedlow got all of his incredible information.    


Link:



http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/tedlow.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Brief update ... I still don't know for certain when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was established, but I can tell you with historic accuracy the Coca Cola *franchise program *was first initiated in *1901 *and that prior to 1901 there was no such thing as a Coca Cola "franchised" bottler.   (More about this later)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm still reading this one and want to get it posted before I lose track of it. It appears to have a lot of good information about Thomas and Whitehead who started the franchise program ... http://www.nps.gov/nhl/find/statelists/ga/CocaCola.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just purchased this bottle on eBay for a total of $26.04. I have been searching for one since this thread started in October of 2014. It's not only the first one I have seen for sale, but it's also the first one I have seen a picture of other than the one posted by member iggyworf on Page 19, Post #370 of this thread. This is possibly the first one ever posted on the Internet that shows pictures of both sides.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Close Ups ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As for the Cecil Munsey date of 1904 vs. the newspaper date of 1905 vs. the anniversary date of 1907, the best I can come up with at the present is ...                                                                    *?*                                                         (To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Correction ... This thread started in *August *of 2014


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is for member steviecheri : I just sent you a PM to see if you had a chance to examine your OVBW / I.G. CO. / Hutchinson bottle and see if it had anything else embossed on it such as the numbers 01, 02, 03, etc? Thanks Bob


----------



## iggyworf

Still following this great thread. Good work Bob. But I hate to say this. I,m sorry you had to pay up for that commemorative bottle. I just found one for about half of what you got yours for. Still very cool though. Here is a link. Funny how It seems it always works out that way. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1...mp;hash=item43d63796a7


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks for sharing the link. Maybe Mark / Bass Assassin will be interested in the one you posted and nab it. I can't believe I missed seeing it but obviously I did. Yeah, it's weird how things work out. For the longest time there were no listings whatsoever, and now two pop up at the same time. Maybe it has something to do with this thread and those who have the anniversary bottles researched them and decided that now would be a good time to sell them.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For those who are wondering why I'm placing so much interest in steviecheri's Illinois Glass OVBW Hutchinson bottle, it's because of the information I found on this site/link titled ... *The Dating Game  ~  Bill Lockhart and David Whitten  ~  Winter 2006* http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/BLockhart_FHGW.pdf Scroll to Page 7 where you will find the information I cropped the attached image from. Because of this, I think there's a good chance that steviecheri's Hutchinson bottle has one of the 01, 02, or 03 marks. If so, the number would date the bottle, which in turn might also be the date when the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works began operation. Of course this all hinges on hearing from steviecheri again. Reminder:  steviecheri's bottle has the 477, which, according to the article, was the highest model number listed in the 1903 Illinois Glass Company catalog.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

It blows my mind how similar (identical ?) my ROOT bottle is to the 477 bottle in the 1903 Illinois Glass Company catalog. Especially notice that both bottles have the 10-sided mug base ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Better yet / For comparison ... 1.  My Root2.  steviecheri's Illinois Glass


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I wonder which glass company made the third one pictured?  From ... http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/hutch-hutchinson-soda-bottle-monroe-139682577 1.  Root2.  Illinois Glass3.  Unknown


----------



## iggyworf

Here is another cool OVBW coca cola bottle for sale on fleebay. The person states its from 1910.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/A...mp;hash=item3aa0929a94


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just fooling around ... This is a Phillip Morris sign I found in the brush along an old highway about two years ago while searching for soda bottles.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Great find! Except that it's no longer available because I just purchased it for $40.55. It will be a great research item, especially because of the block lettering. Hopefully it has a makers mark and date code. I can't wait to receive it. Thanks a million Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I just realized the bottle is marked ROOT 540, which doesn't necessarily date it but will be a good place to start my research.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a couple of pics, which I lightened for better detail ...  (By the way, the fact the top is missing doesn't bother me all that much. If it turns out to be a one of a kind, then any condition is acceptable)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

As Mark would say, "this is a game changer" Based on my preliminary findings, the ROOT 540 tells me the bottle was made in *1905 at the very earliest*. In fact, even the Root Hutchinson bottles were not first made until 1905. Because the bottle has Coca Cola in block letters, I am inclined to believe it predates my other (unmarked) OVBW  bottle that has Coca Cola in script. I can't imagine them ordering a script bottle first and then ordering a block-lettered bottle afterwards. Nor can I imagine them ordering a full slug-plate bottle first, that has the complete company name, and then ordering an abbreviated bottle afterwards. (To be continued)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For comparison ...  1.  Script Front2.  Script Back3.  Block Front


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

And the bases for comparison ... 1.  Script2.  Block


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Notice the *mold seam* on the base of the block-lettered/abbreviated bottle. That should provide us with a major clue because I remember reading something about those base seams "somewhere"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just found where I read about the mold seam on the very bottom of the bottle. According to Bill Porter and Bill Lockhart, the base seam is a definite characteristic of "all" Root bottles, including Coca Cola bottles as well as non Coca Cola bottles. Even the Hutchinson bottles made by Root all have the seam on the bottom, as seen on the attached image below. Now I need to focus on the number 540 and see what I can find about it. [ Attachment ] OVBW / ROOT / HUTCHINSON ... with mold seam on both sides of the base/bottom


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the seller's description for the block-letter Coca Cola bottle. I wonder where he came up with the 1905 aspect of the 1905-1910 date? The bottle is being shipped from Roland, Arkansas but I do not know if it was dug there or what. The seller seems to know a thing or two about early soda bottles.                                                                                ~ * ~ [align=center]
Offered is a selection consisting of one vintage Louisiana Coca Cola dating between 1905 and 1910. The bottle is Hand Blown In Mold manufacture style with crown top finish (BiM) ...[/align][align=center] [/align]                                                                     The lot includes:

1)—A  7 1/2" tall(as is), dark orange amber color straight sided Coca-Cola bottle, embossed in large block letters in a crude slug plate "Coca Cola", bottom embossed with the initials "O.V.B.W.", which was the abbreviation for the franchisee Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in Monroe, La. Faint reverse heel markings of ROOT 540. As you can see, the top of crown is missing, and there is a 1/2" chip on back center as well as some small pecks on front. A hard to find amber Louisiana Coca Cola bottle!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I fully realize that I keep going in circles with this discussion, but no matter how hard I try to find information to the contrary, the "whirlpool" of evidence keeps centering on 1905. Not only does the 1952 newspaper article say "First in 1905," but everything I'm finding related to Root bottles also points to 1905. Is it possible Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was established in 1905 and that all of their early bottles, such as the Hutchinson, the amber block-letter Coca Cola, and the amber script Coca Cola are all from 1905?  I realize how unlikely this sounds, but I just cannot find anything to dispute it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I just checked and Roland, Arkansas is about 200 miles north of Monroe, Louisiana.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, I have purchased a bottle from this seller before. He is polite and prompt. There's a very good chance he knows of this thread and is thinking this may be a good time to see if he can get something for this damaged bottle, and that may not be a bad idea.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, I just read where you purchased the new bottle of discussion. I have ALWAYS been a firm believer that bottles with coca cola in block lettering do not contain coca cola, and that only those with script actually contained coca cola. This one gives me a weird almost sick feeling in my stomach. There is something about this one that is different. I have no proof and no evidence to base this theory on, but... I am strongly of the opinion the bottle you just purchased actually contained coca cola. There, I've said it and people can laugh at me or say whatever they want but that's what I believe. Just look at it. I think it's the most intriguing coca cola bottle I've ever seen. Given the age/color/ bottler, I don't believe this was a coca product the real thing.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark : I agree! I also think the amber block-letter bottle was intended to contain Coca Cola and not a flavor beverage. But regardless of that, the fact it has COCA COLA/OVBW/ROOT embossed on it is the best part of all and opens up all kinds of possibilities. But the phrase "where there's one there's bound to be more" might turn out be a horse of a different color.  []


----------



## iggyworf

I also tend too agree. Even with my limited knowledge. (I've only been into collecting for about 3 yrs now). Great score Bob!That seller has alot of nice bottles for sale. And he's upfront about all the purple glass he has.


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## Bass Assassin

Sorry, typo at the end of my last post. I don't believe this bottle contained a coca cola product but contained the real thing


----------



## Bass Assassin

I am glad to hear someone else has the same opinion.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Based on what I know about Coca Cola flavor bottles, most if not all of them are marked with Coca Cola Bottling Company and didn't make their debut until the 1920s. Plus, I can't recall ever seeing an amber one. Until something presents itself to refute this, I am 100% of the opinion the block letter Coca Cola bottle contained "The Real Thing"


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, look at the photos of your new bottle and see where it was "double stamped". Wonder if the mold had been reworked or if the bottle was mishandled and was moved in the mold ever slightly while it was still hot?


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> Based on what I know about Coca Cola flavor bottles, most if not all of them are marked with Coca Cola Bottling Company and didn't make their debut until the 1920s. Plus, I can't recall ever seeing an amber one. Until something presents itself to refute this, I am 100% of the opinion the block letter Coca Cola bottle contained "The Real Thing"



I agree


----------



## Bass Assassin

And again, we have another OVBW embossed Amber coca cola without the NPC&Co embossing.


----------



## Robby Raccoon

I disagree. Coca-Cola flavor bottles were out before then. I know you said "Most," but I doubt mine is in the top-ten oldest-- Paul's Drinks started in 1917 here, a flavor-line bottling at least Strawberry if not more flavors. Further, until the 1930s, if I recall, Paul's Drinks did *not* put "Property of Coca-Cola Bottling Co." onto their bottles. All they did was put a large "C" on the base of their bottles. C = Coca-Cola. If I recall, they then continued for perhaps a decade with the C and Property Of statement, then finally cut-out the C in the 1950s till Sunrise Strawberry replaced Paul's.  I have 4 Coca-Cola Bottling Co. bottles in my room. All are block-letter. I had been lead to believe, initially, they held Coca-Cola. Later, I was lead to believe they did *not* hold Coca-Cola. As evidence to support that argument, they have semi-legible numbers on their back heels. I believe one reads "18" and another "16"-- these I think to be date-codes, thus putting them after the Straight-Side era (Might I add that they're Straight-Sided, and that everyone who sells them calls them Straight-Sides.) If date-codes, they're not Straight Sides-- unless the very last-- and it fits the time-period of bottles I find in that location; so I still feel, albeit I do not like it, that they never held Coca-Cola, but instead they held another drink bottled by the company.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but if you deflate mine then you win the argument.  4 variations of Drink Paul's Drinks from Muskegon, Michigan. The two newest (best-condition ones, which are clear) I traded-out. The oldest is the green, at 1922 I think (possibly the oldest-surviving,) then the next oldest known is the hazy and cracked clear at far left.  The Root-made green one lacks several characteristics of the newer ones. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/New-to-CollectionHe-just-wouldnt-take-No-m654550.aspx^ More on the two older ones as well as some company history. They may only have bottled Strawberry--we may never know, but it's clear that the ACL bottle of Sun-Rise Beverage (Strawberry, if I recall,) came out when this one died. There was one Paul's for sale that still was capped.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Spirit Bear, we are talking about 1905. Anything is possible in the birth years of coca cola. Remember, there was not even a franchise in Monroe,LA at this time.(at least not documented) so it is unlikely they were bottling coca cola flavor drinks if they didn't have a franchise. The second thing to consider is that coca cola is in the slug plate. If it were somewhere else on the bottle I would agree with you. And lastly, show me a coca cola flavored drink in an amber bottle. ( and there may be one but I haven't seen it)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bass Assassin said:
			
		

> Bob, look at the photos of your new bottle and see where it was "double stamped". Wonder if the mold had been reworked or if the bottle was mishandled and was moved in the mold ever slightly while it was still hot?



Yeah, I noticed the double-stamping, too. The OVBW Hutch is similarly double-stamped. Both are Root bottles. I will examine the block-letter bottle closer after I receive it. I also noticed it does not have the N.P.C. & CO., but can't explain why.


----------



## Robby Raccoon

Bass Assassin, I might find one this Summer. Mona Lake has produced over 50 different bottles-- be them shards or intact-- as well as another 100+ variations (usually in shards. [])


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Spirit Bear Thanks for sharing. However, I have to confess I'm a little confused. I read your text, as well as the text on the link you posted, but I was unable to totally understand what you were trying to convey. As for the five bottles you posted pictures of, which I'm not sure about either, I will bet you dimes-to-donuts that all five of those bottles are from the 1920s at the earliest. But regardless of that, its the *amber color *more than anything else that leads me to believe the block-letter bottle contained Coca Cola and not a flavor beverage. Show me a pre-1910 amber flavor bottle and I will be the first to step forward and stand corrected.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... There are at least two Hutchinson bottles I am aware of that do not have the Coca Cola script but are embossed with Coca Cola in block letters. One is from Chattanooga, Tennessee and the other is from Brunswick, Georgia. I'm not sure of the dates, but both are considered to have contained actual Coca Cola and not a flavored beverage. If necessary, I will post pictures of them tomorrow.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Courtesy of Coca Cola Museum ... http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/file/7353


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Chattanooga, Tennessee  ~  Sold in 2013 for $2,878 http://www.antiquesnavigator.com/d-1383550/rare-coca-cola-hutchinson-hutch-bottle-mispelled-coco-cola-chattanooga-tenn.html


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*In Search of ...* "Any" *amber* Coca Cola bottle that is not embossed with the *Coca Cola  *script, but is embossed with Coca Cola in block letters. Allan Petretti shows about 35 amber Coca Cola bottles in his books, but not a single one of them has all of the embossing in block letters. Like Mark said earlier, the bottle I purchased today is the first one like it that either of us have ever seen.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The bottle shipped this morning and should arrive by early next week. Here's a sneak peek. I have searched high and low and cannot find another one like it!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*Major Game Changer ...*


http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/glass-manufacturers-marks-on-coke-bottles/

O.V.B.W ... Ohio Valley Bottling Works, Cincinnati, Ohio. Initials as reported to be on the bottom of a circa 1910s-1920s amber straight-side Coke bottle. This was apparently a short-lived local bottling operation, not a glass maker.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*1920 American Bottler * Scroll to Ohio ... Ohio Valley Bottling Works https://books.google.com/books?id=LZZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA64&dq=Ohio+Valley+Bottling+Works,+Cincinnati,+Ohio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjTBVLHYAdDioATczYHQDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Ohio%20Valley%20Bottling%20Works%2C%20Cincinnati%2C%20Ohio&f=false Of course I'm disappointed, but the rarity of a bottle from a short-lived bottler is still kind of exciting. I plan to do some more research but for now will accept it for what it is.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Even though the American Bottler listing says the Ohio Valley Bottling Works was a "new" company in 1920, this doesn't explain the eBay seller's description about the bottle being a BIM / Blown In Mold. I find it hard to believe that a 1920s ROOT bottle would be hand blown. Especially when you take into account the accompanying number 540 embossed on the heel. ???


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hmmm ... Dare I even hint at the possibility the bottle makers mark website is incorrect? After all, it did use the words "reported to be"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. I'm going out on a limb here and say ... *There's now way the Root Glass Company was still making BIM bottles in the 1920s*


----------



## iggyworf

Wow! That puts a new twist on the subject. Sorry Bob, I hope I didn't prompt you to buy a bottle you didn't want. But with my limited knowledge I have to tend to agree that BIM bottles were done with by the 20's also. It still is a very cool bottle. I hope you can figure out what glass maker it came from.


----------



## Bass Assassin

It certainly appears to be a BIM from the photos I've seen. I still believe it contained coca cola as well.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'll go one step further and put my reputation on the line and say that O.V.B.W. does not stand for Ohio Valley Bottling Works but stands for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and the bottle makers marks website information is incorrect. I'll know more about the bottle after I receive it, but for now that's where I stand.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I have quite a bit of evidence to submit in support of my belief the letters OVBW on my block letter amber Coca Cola bottle do not stand for Ohio Valley Bottling Works, and will start with this image of the bottle to confirm it was made by the Root Glass Company of Terre Haute, Indiana. More evidence will follow as soon as I organize my notes. The eBay listing does not show a clear picture of the mold seams, which I will provide pictures of after I receive the bottle, but for the time being here's the eBay link where you can examine the seller's pictures for yourself, which is where I found this one ... (Not shown is the Root number 540 but we can trust that it's there) http://www.ebay.com/itm/251802065556?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

My next piece of evidence is this snippet from a 1922 document titled  ... *Official Gazette U.S. Patent Office * ... where we find the following information about the Ohio Valley Bottling Works ... *Filed December 15, 1919**Published July 6, 1920**Serial Number 126,056* Link ... https://books.google.com/books?id=CRaQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1036&lpg=PA1036&dq=ohio+valley+bottling+works&source=bl&ots=a-5uFJG5O2&sig=xHu4rh5hmQ76tOnTEAxyI1cxwlk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gcnBVP6MKM22oQSk9oHoAg&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=ohio%20valley%20bottling%20works&f=false


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next is the information found in this 2004 Bill Lockhart article where he states the Root Glass Company was experimenting with bottle machines as early as 1905 and was fully automated by 1912 and used what was called the "Root Machine" or the "Red Devil"  Note:  You can do your own research regarding when Root Glass became fully automated, but I can assure you, most if not all of the references will point to the year 1912.  Scroll to Page 3 under the heading ... *The Root of the Red Devil* *http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/taleoftwomachines_blockhart.pdf*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question: If the Root Glass Company was fully automated by 1912, then how do we explain a Root BIM (Blown In Mold) bottle being made for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works that wasn't established until 1919-1920?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. 1.  If anyone can find a date earlier than 1919 for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works, please share it with us. 2.  If anyone can find a date later than 1912 indicating Root Glass produced BIM bottles, please share it with us.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Now back to the only reference I can find (which is copy/pasted from the Makers Marks website) that suggest the letters OVBW stand for Ohio Valley Bottling Works ... Notice I *highlighted *the words that throw up red flags ...  O.V.B.W ... Ohio Valley Bottling Works, Cincinnati, Ohio. Initials *as reported to me *on the bottom of a circa 1910s-1920s amber straight-side Coke bottle. This was *apparently *a *short-lived* local bottling operation, not a glass maker.  Regarding the "short-lived" part, I have seen references for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works as late as *1942*, which I will post later today.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Even the well known patent 1915 Root Coca Cola prototype Hobbleskirt bottle was produced by machine. Check it out ...  https://books.google.com/books?id=_0TOKtTyS5MC&pg=PA97&dq=root+glass+company+bottle+machine&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gmDCVNCUB9C0oQSm9oDwDA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=root%20glass%20company%20bottle%20machine&f=false


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, another thing you could do is ask the seller where he got the bottle. He may have dug it here, local to Monroe. Remember when I said I purchased a bottle from this seller? Guess what, it was a Ouachita Valley Bottling Works slug plate soda. There's a photo of it early in the thread.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The more I dig into this the more interesting it gets. As you will recall, the makers mark site, as well as several other references, state that Ohio Valley Bottling Works was located in Cincinnati, Ohio. However, based on what I have been seeing, it turns out the Ohio Valley Bottling Works was located in *Ironton, Ohio *and not in Cincinnati. Ironton is located about 150 miles southeast of Cincinnati and about 50 miles south of Portsmouth, Ohio which is where this newspaper article is from. Notice it mentions a Louis Koukos. I'm currently researching him and have already found some pretty interesting stuff, some of which I will be posting later. In the meantime, check this out from ... The Portsmouth Daily Times  ~  Portsmouth, Ohio  ~  January 12, *1942*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next up is this 1940 U.S. Census from *Ironton*, Ohio which list Louis Koukos as a ... *Bottler Soft Drinks   *( Above where I placed the red arrow in the cropped snippet ) ( By the way, the 1930 Ironton Census list Louis Koukos as a Candy Store Proprietor )


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought this one was especially interesting. I'm not sure when it was published but it's an officialdocument listing wounded soldiers in WWI. In this particular listing it shows that Louis Koukos of Ironton, Ohio was wounded on August 9, 1918. Notice how precisely they listed his age as well as some of the other abbreviated wording.  By the way, in all of my searches involving the Ohio Valley Bottling Works and/or Louis Koukos, I have not seen a single reference saying they ever bottled Coca Cola. WIA stands for "Wounded In Action"


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Even though some might consider my recent contributions as inconclusive, it will, I hope, at least explain in some small measure why I so strongly believe the initials OVBW on my new amber Coca Cola bottle stand for ... *                                              Ouachita Valley Bottling Works*           ... and not for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works as the Makers Marks website suggest.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*~  SUMMARY  ~*


*1901 =  Root Glass Company Established*
*1905 =  Root Glass Company experiments with bottle making machines*
*1905 =  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ~ Bottler of Coca Cola*
*1912 =  Root Glass Company fully automated with bottle making machines*
*1920 =  Ohio Valley Bottling Works established*


After I receive and examine the amber block-letter Coca Cola bottle in question I will do a follow up with pictures and include any other pertinent information it happens to reveal. The main thing will be to determine whether it is a BIM or a ABM bottle. If BIM, then in my opinion it could not have been a product of the Ohio Valley Bottling Works which didn't even begin operation until 1919-1920.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. By the way, I do not consider 1920 to 1942 as a "short-lived" period of time! If fact, the Ohio bottler might have been in operation even later than 1942, of which I have not researched and do not consider to be all that relevant anyway.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the fun of it ... Here's the link to a block-lettered Ouachita Coca Cola Bottling Company bottle from Monroe that's currently on eBay. Because of the company name and date, the bottle is one of the Joseph Biedenharn bottles and not an Ouachita Valley Bottling Works bottle. I have no doubt this particular bottle was a flavor bottle and was not intended for actual Coca Cola. Biedenharn would have known better than that.       Notice ... 1.  Its the same seller I bought my recent amber bottle from.2.  The bottle is marked with a ROOT 1461 12 which indicates it was made in 1912 You will recall that Root started dating all of their bottles in 1909. Which is another reason I know my block-letter amber OVBW bottle could not have been made any later than 1909. http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOUISIANA-COCA-COLA-BOTTLE-Block-Letter-Ouachita-C-C-Bottling-Co-Monroe-c-1912-/251480364711?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8d65d6a7


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly (for the time being) ... This link is for those who might have forgotten about Root dating their bottles starting in 1909. This link has been posted more than once and is to an article titled ...                                    *Dating and Identifying Early Coca-Cola Bottles* *                                                        July-August 2012* *                             By Bill Porter with contributions from Bill Lockhart*                          Scroll to the second page ~ First column ~ Second paragraph         http://www.fohbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/DatingEarlyCocaColaBottles.pdf


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I thought this picture was worth sharing. I did a quick search on Henry Houston but could not find anything relevant. Its impossible to say if the Hutch bottle is an OVBW or one of Biedenharn's that he brought with him from Vicksburg. Nor can I make out any details on the other bottles. From ... The Monroe News Star  ~  April 17, 1968


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If Henry Houston was 69 years old in 1968, that means he was born in 1899. Which means he was only 13 years old when Joseph Biedenharn purchased the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in 1912.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

According to USPS tracking, my amber OVBW bottle should arrive today. If so, I will try and post some pictures of it this afternoon. I contacted the seller and asked if the bottle was dug. He replied back saying he didn't know and that he purchased the bottle last week at a show in Mississippi.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I'm assuming this is the show he was referring to ... Jan 17, 2015 ... Jackson, MS 29th Annual Mississippi Antique Bottle Show, Saturday 9am-4pm, Dealer setup Friday 3-9pm and Saturday 7-9am. At the Trade Mart Building, Mississippi Fairgrounds, Jackson, MS.


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> P.S.
> 
> I'm assuming this is the show he was referring to ...
> 
> Jan 17, 2015 ... Jackson, MS 29th Annual Mississippi Antique Bottle Show, Saturday 9am-4pm, Dealer setup Friday 3-9pm and Saturday 7-9am. At the Trade Mart Building, Mississippi Fairgrounds, Jackson, MS.



You would be correct Bob. I wanted to go but was too ill. Haven't been sick for 20 years and I got the flu last Thursday. Anyhow, I've heard there were many vendors and the turnout was great


----------



## iggyworf

Great work you guys! Bass I hope you get better soon. Bob, can't wait too see some more pics of that bottle.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The bottle arrived today and it is truly a thing to behold. If not for the broken lip I would grade it a solid 9.0. But because it has significant damage to the lip, I have no choice but to downgrade it to a 5.0. The sheen is excellent and it has no case ware. There are a few minor scratches, but those are only visible in certain light. It is definitely a Blown In Mold (BIM) in that the seam terminates on the shoulder where it has been tooled with visible striations. The most intriguing feature is the finish/closure in that it is flat on the underside and not rounded like your typical crown top. The attached pictures will better illustrate what's hard to put in words. I've only seen pictures of these so called flat-bottom crowns and not familiar enough with them to explain the process involved nor why they are flat. But not only is the underside flat, the sides of the closure are flattish as well with very little roundness to it. I want to call it a truly applied finish, except there is no melt-drip that is typical of a truly applied lip. If anyone is intimately familiar with this type of closure, please educate us. I considered having the closure repaired, but because of the unusuality of it I will probably hold off doing that until I find out more about it. Now for the pictures - which are worth more than a thousand words ... 1.  Full2.  Shoulder Seam3.  Base  (Notice the double stamping)       (More to Follow)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

1.  Broken Finish/Closure2.  Close up of broken top showing flat underside3.  ROOT 540 on heel


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Comparison with my other amber OVBW bottle to illustrate the two different closures. ROUND vs FLAT


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*                           Until further notice/research, I am dating the bottle ...* * [font="impact,chicago"]circa ... 1905[/font]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. All things considered, I am 100% confident it is a *Ouachita Valley Bottling Works *bottle and was intended to contain actual *Coca Cola*


----------



## Bass Assassin

That is one great bottle Bob. I haven't seen that style of neck before on a crown top soda.  I think you have a very unique bottle and I'm betting there weren't many of those produced. Got to be one of those around here somewhere in an early 1900 privy. Great piece and thanks for sharing it with us


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks Speaking of the neck, notice how it slants to one side. That's not an optical illusion and most likely occurred when it was removed from the mold. Either that or else the mold itself was crooked. ???


----------



## Bass Assassin

Sometimes those BIM bottles have irregular shapes. The one I have like your other Amber OVBW is egg-shaped instead of round. Gotta love 'em.


----------



## iggyworf

Excellent bottle Bob. Great pics. Glad you got it. I like the comparison pic you took of the two different closures.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks We need to come up with a name for the finish on my bottle. I did a quick search and cannot find another one like it. Not only is it the only amber, block-letter Coca Cola bottle I've ever seen, but now it has another feature that's a first (at least for me). I'm not even sure how to word a search for one. Nothing seems to fit the description. The only term I can currently think of is ...                                                *Flat-bottom Crown Finish*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or, maybe, just maybe it's a typical crown closure that was *never finished*. If that's the case, then I guess we could call it an ...                                              *Unfinished Crown Finish *


----------



## Bass Assassin

Slightly resembles those bottles that had lightning closures.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Surely your not suggesting its not a Crown finish but something like this Bates Closure bottle? If its not a Crown finish then we are going where no man has gone before. http://www.sodasandbeers.com/SABBottleClosuresBeer.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For Comparison ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... I poked my little finger inside the top and even probed around with a toothpick - there is no seam or detectible ridge on the inside. But not sure what that tells us, if anything. I also examined the outside with a magnifying loupe and where the underside of the finish meets the neck it is totally smooth with no visible alterations, seams, or anything to suggest the finish application was an after market job.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the best I can do to show the flat underside ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

To clarify so there is no confusion ... The underside is absolutely flat all the way around and is smooth to the touch with no sharp edges.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just made another interesting discovery. The round slug plate on the new amber bottle and the round slug plate on my other amber bottle are *identical *in size, diameter, and shape, with the slug plate on both bottles being an elongated egg shape. Dare I ask, connection or coincidence? (Comparison pictures tomorrow)


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> For Comparison ...



I'm just throwing the possibility out there. I've looked for other crown tops designed like yours but haven't seen any...yet. Why else would the adjoining neck/top be designed the way it is except to be a lightning style closure? Maybe we need to focus on finding another cola designed the way yours is.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Go here and see this coca cola bottle. It is not designed like yours but does have a lightning closure. 4th picture down on left side.

www.collectorsweekly.com/coca.../bottles


----------



## Bass Assassin

Sorry having a problem pasting the eBay link.  Here is the item #, not sure if it's a hoax or real.
Item Number:
181643943866
Category:
Collectibles > Bottles & Insulators > Bottles > Modern (1900-Now) > Sodas
Condition:
Used


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I agree 100% the flat underside of the finish "appears" to have been designed to hold a wire-type closure in place such as a lightning stopper and/or any number of other similar types of closures. But the crazy part is, most if not all of those types of finishes fell out of favor well before the turn of the century. The types of finishes I'm referring to are typically known as blob tops. But the thing about blob tops is they have a rounded underside and are not symmetrically flat like the finish on my bottle. Not to mention that blob tops were for the most part replaced by Hutchinson's by 1885-1890. So that we are all on the same page and speaking the same language, notice the definitions on the attached image of a typical Crown finish. It is comprised of three basic parts - the lip - the reinforcing ring - and the neck. Especially notice that where the reinforcing ring leaves the neck it immediately begins it's rounded aspect until it joins with the lip. The reason I emphasize this is because the so called reinforcing ring portion on my bottle is not rounded but instead is fairly flat and gradually tapers inwards. But whether it ever had a lip is the $64,000 question.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I have been looking at dozens of different types of finishes/closures, and the closest thing I have been able to find similar to the finish on my bottle is the example pictured below. I'm not sure what to call the finish other than to describe it as some type of blob top with a flat underside. The metal closure itself was patented by James T. Walker. The only problem is, the closure was patented in 1885. I'm not saying this is the type of finish my bottle has, I'm only saying it is the "closest match" I have been able to find, notably because of the flat underside and the way in which it tapers towards the top.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ... This is for those (including myself earlier) who think the finish on my bottle is a fake that someone added to the bottle at some point. All I can say at the moment in anticipation of this possibility, is that based on what I know about such things and am seeing after careful examination of the bottle, the finish is *original *and not something that was done afterwards.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but as for myself I don't think we are going to be able to solve this one without some help. The truth is, I don't even know where to look for a plausible answer. Everything I'm seeing keeps pointing to some type of blob top, but because of the gap difference involving dates, it just doesn't make sense. Remember, the bottle is clearly marked with ROOT 540, and the Root Glass Company was not even established until 1901. So like it or not we have to think in terms of 1901 or later. The only thing I can think of at the moment to explain the existence of what appears to be wire-type finish on the bottle is possibly one of the following ...  1.  It was done as a special order to accommodate a bottler who had a surplus of wire-type closures he wanted to use up. Of course that bottler would have been the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works in Monroe, Louisiana. Or ... 2.  Because the bottle is hand blown, when it came to the finish, the bottle crew at Root either intentionally or accidently applied a blob-type finish for some unexplainable reason, perhaps even as a joke of some type that never left the glass factory. I'm considering sending the bottle to Bill Lockhart for him to examine, but I haven't decided yet whether to pursue that path or not.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Or ... As I hinted at earlier, is it possibly a hand blown Crown finish that was never finished? I wish I knew the answer, but I don't!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. And we haven't even fully addressed the block-letter embossing yet, which will be like opening an entirely new can of worms.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I will explain more about these bottles later, but what we have is a transition that occurred in the same year from a non-crown to a crown by Murdock & Freeman Bottling in Portland, Maine. Notice that both bottles are dated 1895. The non-crown does not appear to be identical to the finish on my bottle, but it might be close. Also notice that the wire stopper is on the crown and not the other bottle. Using wire closures with ceramic stoppers on crowns was a fairly common practice at one time.  By the way, it has already been determine by the Bottle Research Group (Bill Lockhart) that the 1895 date on the bottles is when they were made and not when the company was established.  The point I'm attempting to make is not that my bottle is from 1895, but that it appears to have been a fairly simple process to change the finish on the same basic bottle type.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Note of interest ... The Bottle Research Group has stated the 1895 Murdock & Freeman crown bottle is the earliest known and confirmed crown bottle they are aware of. The crown finish was patented by William Painter in 1892, but the 1895 Murdock & Freeman crown is the earliest known to have actually been made.


----------



## Bass Assassin

I think you should contact Lockhart


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I have decided to contact both Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter. I have both of their email addresses and will address my inquiry to both of them at the same time. Initially I will send them a brief explanation to see if they are interested and then follow up with pictures and details if they express an interest in assisting me. It could be that one or both of them are already familiar with the bottle and tell me as much in their first reply. I will keep this thread informed as things develop, but it might require a few days before I hear back from them.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just sent Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter a detailed inquiry and attached about a dozen pictures, including those of the mystery bottle as well as pictures of the Hutch and the amber script bottle. Keep your fingers crossed! I'll be back Bob


----------



## Bass Assassin

Hoping you get a reply back. Good luck


----------



## RED Matthews

That is a funny hand - there are too many fingers showing.  Some other hand had to be in the backrground.  Humorous!!!!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Red : Thanks for stopping by. I'm glad you enjoyed the weird hand. I agree, it was faked, but still funny. Please stand by because I heard from Bill Porter and in the process of posting his information. Bob


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I heard from Bill Porter and he informed me with the following regarding my so called mystery bottle ... 1. He has the same bottle.2. His bottle has the flat underside* on the finish but is not broken.3. His bottle is a typical crown other than for the flat part.4. Because of the Root number 540 he dates the bottles to 1905 or possibly later.5. He believes the bottles are "most likely" flavor bottles.6. There are many other amber block-letter Coca Cola bottles with city names on them.7. Until proven otherwise, he believes all block-letter Coca Cola bottles were flavor bottles.8. He likes my theory** about O.V.B.W. standing for Ouachita Valley Bottling Works and not for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works. * Bill did not expound nor present a theory as to why the bottles have the flat underside on the reinforcing ring portion of the Crown finish. ** Because he said he liked my theory, (which stems from the 1919-1920 patent information and the 1942 newspaper article I sent him involving the Ohio Valley Bottling Works) I suspect he was not certain what the letters O.V.B.W. stood for. Bill did not say nor did I ask him where David Whitten (author of the Bottle Makers Marks website) got his information about the meaning of O.V.B.W.


----------



## iggyworf

Great stuff Bob. Some great info on that bottle. Glad he was able to help out.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I totally respect Bill Porter's expertise, observations, and opinions, but because he said "until proven otherwise" regarding all amber block-letter Coca Cola bottles being flavor bottles, it leads me to believe the jury is still out on that subject and it could very well be something we will never know for certain.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. ~ P.S. I have not heard from Bill Lockhart yet but hope to eventually. I sent him a follow up and asked if he had any specific information or theories about the flat part on the underside of the reinforcing ring. If/when I hear from him I will be sure to post what he has to say.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I just heard from Bill Lockhart and this is his copy/pasted reply ... 
Hi Bob and Bill,

Bill is probably right about the date, although some of the lower catalog numbers were used later. It is almost certainly earlier than 1909, when Root began using date codes.

Those finishes are interesting, and most that I have seen were on pre-1930s bottles. Many bottlers -- especially brewers -- offered bottles with both crown caps and/or Lightning stoppers, and/or corks until about 1914, when corks were discontinued. Anheuser-Busch advertised both crowns and corks until 1914 (at least). Lightning fasteners were used later and are still found on some beers.

The flat under-surface of the reinforcing ring could have served as an anchor for the wire bale for the Lightning.  I have seen a photo of one crown finish with a still intact Lightning fastener. It was excavated at an archaeological excavation in Canada, and only the neck and finish (with the Lightning fastener) remained.

Bill


----------



## Bass Assassin

I  think Bill Lockhart got it right. This bottle was designed in this way for a purpose. There were far too many "regular" crown top bottles out there when this particular bottle was produced, so they weren't still learning how to make them. As for whether or not it contained coca cola, we will never know for sure. I'm still of the opinion there was no franchise at this point and this being a flavor drink of coca cola is very unlikely. Just my opinion.


----------



## Bass Assassin

By the way Bob, your persistence and remarkable research is greatly appreciated. Hat's off to you sir.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark Thanks Of additional interest involves my suggestion to Bill Lockhart for him to come up with a collector's term for the flat-bottom crown. Here's the reply I just received from him ... "The industry calls the top ring the Sealing Ring or the Crown Ring. The second one is the reinforcing ring. The purpose of the lower ring is to reinforce the upper ring to withstand the pressure of the capping machinery and bottle openers -- hence the name. Let me think about this awhile. Flat-based reinforcing ring is quite a mouthful."

Bill


----------



## iggyworf

I have too agree with Bass, Great work Bob. You too Bass.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks Because I think Bill Lockhart and The Bottle Research Group (BRG) are the leading authorities on soda bottle manufacturing, I think its only appropriate that Bill come up with the right term for the flat-base crown reinforcing ring. While we are waiting to hear back from him, which I expect to be no more than a day or two, I thought it might be fun for the rest of us to see what kind of collector term we can think of. As we know, there are terms for other bottle finishes such as the Blob-top, Hutch, Crown, etc. But what one or two words best describes a flat-base reinforcing ring?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I know Bill Lockhart is thrilled and honored to be the first to come up with a new term. I can assure you he is taking it seriously because he knows that whatever he comes up with could potentially be a new term not only for current collectors but future collectors as well. As for myself, I'm excited to be a part of this no matter what he comes up with. Its like being on the cutting edge of soda bottle collecting history.


----------



## Bass Assassin

You said Bill Porter has  a bottle as well. Is it just like yours, an OVBW bottle, or a different bottler? We could call it the Bob Brown crown top, the flat bottom ring crown top, or the OVBW crown top.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Ha ha, Hee hee , very funny  [] Yes, Bill Porter's bottle is marked O.V.B.W. on the base and even has the flat-base reinforcing ring.  I sent him some stuff about Joe Renwick and the early days of the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works prior to Joseph Biedenharn. I can't say for certain, but I get the impression he agrees with us in that O.V.B.W. does *not *stand for the Ohio Valley Bottling Works. The best I can come up with is ... *Flat-base Crown* ... but I don't feel right about it because I'm stealing the "Flat-base" part from Bill Lockhart.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I'm reposting this image as a reminder of the difference between a typical crown and a flat-base crown. I have been looking at crown soda bottles on eBay trying to see if I can find another one with a flat base. Sometimes I think I found one, only to discover after zooming in on it that its just another typical crown. But now with this reminder of exactly how they look, I'm pretty sure if I do eventually find one that it will stand out like a sore thumb. No doubt about it, the base is absolutely flat!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Just fooling around! The real deal should look something like this ...


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I've got a new name for it ...                                                   *[font="comic sans ms,sans-serif"]WEIRD[/font]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

This is the best I can do with my limited photo editing talents, but it should be close to accurate. I realize the flat base stands out like a sore thumb but that's the way an unbroken bottle would probably look and what makes it so unique.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Side by Side comparison with my script bottle ... [  Gently roll your mouse wheel back-and-forth from one image to the other  ]


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I ran this idea by Bill Lockhart as a possible nickname but have not heard back from him yet ...                                                   *[font="courier new,courier"]Bobbed Crown[/font]*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Bottle Definitions:

*Bobbed Crown ... *Nickname for Crown-top soda and beer bottles which have a flat under-surface on the reinforcing ring designed to anchor the wire bale of Lightning type stoppers.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Reworded ... 
Bottle Definitions:

*Bobbed Crown ... *Nickname for Crown-top soda and beer bottles which have a flat under-surface on the reinforcing ring designed to anchor the wire bale of Lightning type stoppers. The term "Bobbed" derives from women's block-cut hair styles introduced in the early 1920s.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I heard from Bill Lockhart who said he was going to present my term "Bobbed Crown" to the Bottle Research Group (BRG) and see what they think of it. I told him I can't ask for more than that and am honored he would even consider it. When I first visualized the finish it reminded me of a Beatle haircut, but the term "Beatle Crown" was too weird. In turn that led me to the Bobbed hairstyle, and when I saw how they looked I immediately liked the similarity. The fact my name is Bob is purely coincidental.


----------



## iggyworf

That's a good one. "Bobbed Crown" Everything I was trying to think of had the word ''Flat" in it. It would be nice if you could get some pics of his bottle to show for all. That would be up to him of course.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

For future reference and only a sampling of what influenced Bill Lockhart's definition ... 1.  The porcelain stopper with a wire bale used in this country was invented by Henry Putnam and was known as the lightning stopper (shown in middle of ad). According to the ad, it was patented in February of 1893. 2. Original Patent  ~  Filed May 31, 1878  ~  Published February 25, 1879 Note:  Henry W. Putnam patented several different types of bottle seals. In fact, there are dozens if not hundreds of different types of wire bottle fasteners that were patented over the years by different individuals.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Good idea! I'm contacting Bill Porter right now and ask if he will send me a picture of his ... OVBW / Amber / Coca Cola / Block Letter / Bobbed Crown / Bottle


----------



## Bass Assassin

iggyworf said:
			
		

> That's a good one. "Bobbed Crown" Everything I was trying to think of had the word ''Flat" in it. It would be nice if you could get some pics of his bottle to show for all. That would be up to him of course.



I agree with iffy. I would really like to see  some photos of this bottle if at possible. I like the term "bobbed crown." I think that is a perfectly suitable name. Good work Bob. Please keep us informed of any updates. I wish surfaceone was still around to he a part of this.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark: I hope you're in the mood for a joke because I just gotta kid you about your latest typo. Its "iggy" and not "iffy"  (LMAO)  [] I sent Bill Porter a request for a picture and waiting to hear from him now. Speaking of "mouthfuls" (as Bill Lockhart mentioned earlier) I wonder if there are any "Bobbed Crown Hobbleskirts" out there anywhere? Probably not, I just like the connection between olden day nicknames.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Sorry about that iggyworf. I was typing without my reading glasses.


----------



## iggyworf

No prob. I got a chuckle out of it.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark Great come-back! I just noticed the 'f' and the 'g' are side-by-side on keyboards. The next time I make a typo I'm going to use your explanation. I use reading glasses, too. [8|]


----------



## iggyworf

There is times I do feel "iffy"[&:]


----------



## Bass Assassin

iggyworf said:
			
		

> There is times I do feel "iffy"[&:]




I know how you feel. I just spent my last 3 weekends digging in what I thought were privies, side by side. Come  to find out they were wells. After about 15 feet  into each one and sticking a long  probe down into them and not feeling anything but dirt, I felt a bit Iffy too. Too deep for a one man job. (Not to mention the dirt is awful soft around these parts)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I heard from Bill Porter and all I can tell you is, he is unable to provide me with a picture of his OVBW bottle. I'm not sure why but it is what it is and the only alternative I can think of is to try and find another one. Like they say, where there are two bottles there are bound to be more. No word from Bill Lockhart either, but because he has to communicate with other members of the BRC I really don't expect to hear from him anytime soon anyway.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Are Ye of so little faith to think I couldn't find another one? [] And check out the "Bobbed Crown" ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/COCA-COLA-amber-coke-bottle-RARE-slant-lettering-straight-side-nice-example-/261750341830?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf18940c6


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I already sent the seller an inquiry about possible marks. Even though he said in his description there wasn't, I asked him anyway. I told him the most insignificant mark can sometimes disclose volumes of information.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

1. eBay2. Mine


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Next Question ... Why is it that both of these Coca Cola have at least three things in common? 1.  Amber Glass2.  Block Lettering3.  Bobbed Crown


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Hey, Mark Notice on my recent post #676 that I made a typo and wrote BRC instead of BRG. And the 'C' and 'G' aren't even next to each other on my keyboard. Plus, I had my reading glasses on at the time. So please don't feel like the Lone Ranger because it happens to all of us from time to time. Just ask iffy, he can tell you all about it. []


----------



## iggyworf

Yes unfortunately I also need reading glasses now. Bob that bottle must be a very recent listing. I searched early this morn for amber coke bottles and didn't see that one. Yours seems a little bit more squared off than that one, but both are very close.The person is asking a lot for that one.(I have my glasses on at the moment)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

By the way ... My mouse finger is just itching to click on the "Buy It Now" box for that eBay bottle. So if anyone is interested in it, you might want to nab it soon. Speaking of which, on a few "Buy It Now" items in the past I have asked the sellers to add a "Make Offer" option and, if they did, I told them I would offer such-and-such amount. It's apparently allowed because it has worked for me more than once. I might try the same thing with this one but need to contemplate it for a while.


----------



## iggyworf

Hey Bob did you look at this one also? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coca-Cola-Lexington-Ky-amber-soda-pop-old-Coke-bottle-antique-Kentucky-bottles-/171655398843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f77585bb Message that person and make them an offer. I have done that before.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I wish there was a better image of the flat underside. I might even ask the seller to provide us with one. The protruding edge on mine measures exactly 1/16 of an inch.


----------



## iggyworf

Not related to our discussion here but that seller has another ss coke with a strange neck. Check it out when you can. I have never seen that before.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks. I see it now and have it on my watch list. I like the current price, that's for sure. Especially for a "research" bottle.  Here are a couple of pics of it ... All of a sudden they are popping up left and right - weird!?


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob's bottle seems to be more "crude" than the other one he found and the one iggy found. I am not interested in either so you can count me out. Iggy, good eye to spot that second bottle. That's a nice script coke. Bob, that narrows the list down to Amber bottles containing coca cola or a product of coca cola. We need to find an aqua bobbed crown bottle. 
P.S. When typing this post I realized my spellcheck tried to correct iggyworf to "iffy word." I'm guessing that's what happened earlier.


----------



## iggyworf

Yours is still completely squared off where these other two are not as pronounced, but very close.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Seller's Description on the Kentucky script  (Which mentions a makers mark / See below) ...

"Brown or amber soda pop bottle embossed "Coca-Cola" on one side above the heel; "D.O.C. 342"  below that at the heel;   "Lexington, Ky.  Registered." on the back heel.  And  "Coca-Cola"  on the base.  No chips , cracks or dings. Tiny bit of case wear  around the middle.  Shiny, clean, beautiful bottle.  Probably dates 1905-1915."  



Makers Mark Info ...

D.O.C ... D.(Dominick) O. Cunningham Glass Co., Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (c.1882-1931). A prolific producer of soda bottles, especially Hutchinson-style sodas (“Hutches”). The mark seems to be seen primarily on handmade bottles manufactured (generally speaking) before around 1910.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Which means it wasn't just Root Glass who made them, nor that the Bobbed Crown is only on block-lettered bottles. The most common denominators so far are ... 1. Coca Cola2. Amber Bottles


----------



## Bass Assassin

SODAPOPBOB said:
			
		

> iggy
> 
> Thanks. I see it now and have it on my watch list. I like the current price, that's for sure. Especially for a "research" bottle.  Here are a couple of pics of it ...
> 
> All of a sudden they are popping up left and right - weird!?
> 
> Yes, all of a sudden they are popping up...hm.....


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Maybe the entire collecting world is following this thread and decided to break out their Bobbed bottles. Eee-gads, if that's the case I'll be broke before the week is out!  (Lol)  [&:]


----------



## iggyworf

I've been searching clear coke ss botles. What do you's think of this one? http://www.ebay.com/itm/SAVANNAH-GA-STRAIGHT-SIDED-BASE-SCRIPT-COCA-COLA-BOTTLE-/400571533729?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d43ec89a1


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## SODAPOPBOB

Yeppers! I say it's another one! What's weird is, not one of the sellers mentioned anything about an unusual Crown. But at least we can add aqua Coca Cola bottles to the list. Plus, I'm pretty sure I see a makers mark of *A.B. CO. *in one of the pictures. Which means the most common denominators so far are narrowed down to ... 1.  Possibly all are Coca Cola Bottles  ???2.  Possibly all are BIM's  ???3.  At least three different glass makers  ... ROOT - D.O.C. - A.B.CO. Possible Makers Mark info ... A.B.CO. ... American Bottle Company (1905-1929). Chicago, Illinois (office – 1905-1916); Toledo, Ohio (office – 1916-1929).  Glass plants were located at Streator, Illinois;  Newark, Ohio;  Belleville, Illinois;  Massillon, Ohio  &  Wooster, Ohio.  The American Bottle Company was purchased by Owens Bottle Machine Company in 1916 (with some of the plants being closed soon afterwards) but the Streator and Newark plants continued to operate under the American Bottle Co. Name until 1929, when they became part of the merger that resulted in Owens-Illinois Glass Company. (For Streator and Newark plant marks from 1916 to 1929, see “17N” and “16S” entries). Most, if not all, of the “AB”, “AB CO.” and “A.B.CO.” marked bottles are believed to date between 1905 and 1916. However, it is possible that some bottles with these markings _might_ date between 1916 and 1929, but, if so, could only have been made at either the Streator or Newark plants.  See also “AB (letters connected)” page, here.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Highly possible *A.B. CO.*


----------



## Bass Assassin

1)Maybe all of these bottles had applied tops and the makers thought it might be easier to apply the tops if the bottom was squared off.
2)is it possible the makers left the bottoms squared off just in case the bottler wanted to use the Lightning style closure? According to Lockhart many bottlers were still using the Lightning style closure while the crown cap was already the favored choice.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I'm wondering the same things. I just sent (bombarded) Bill Lockhart with links to all three of the newly found bottles. If he and the BRG decide to look into this, maybe they can come up with an explanation. I asked Bill to consider that, but I don't expect to hear back from him until later and possibly will even be a couple of days. I'm really not sure yet just how interested he is in all of this.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Meanwhile, in Monroe,LA the temperature reached the high 60's or low 70's for the third straight day. Feel sorry for you good folks on the upper east coast. This is not ordinary January temperatures for us.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. If it turns out the BRG are not interested, and we are left to our own devices in trying to figure this out, I suggest we start by researching each of the individual bottlers and glass companies we know of that made or used the flat crowns and then go from there. Its possible that somewhere in one of those company archives there is mention of them making or using the unusual crowns and possibly even an explanation as to why. All we need is one such reference and that in itself could be all we need to solve this thing. I'll do what I can, but I already see hours of researching ahead, so please bare with me in the meantime. The only thing I feel fairly confident about at the moment is ... The flat-based reinforcing rings served a *purpose* and were molded on the bottles *intentionally*. So our mission, should we decide to accept it, is to try and determine exactly what that purpose was. Most likely to anchor a wire bale, as Bill Lockhart indicated, but proof of the pudding is what we need to look for.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

List of known glass companies ... 1.  ROOT2.  D.O.C.3.  A.B. CO. List of known (Coca Cola) bottlers ... 1.  Ouachita Valley Bottling Works2.  Lexington, Kentucky3.  Savannah, Georgia Dates ... Pre 1915 and possibly Pre 1910


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## SODAPOPBOB

The current number one common denominator appears to be ... * Coca Cola   /   Coca Cola *


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One thing I want to point out right from the get-go is, every glass maker mentioned so far is listed on David Whitten's website of glass makers who produced Coca Cola bottles. I realize this obvious, but its the obvious stuff that eventually leads to the not-so-obvious. Here's the link to David's site, check it out ...                  http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/glass-manufacturers-marks-on-coke-bottles/


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, I'll start with D.O.C. Company


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## SODAPOPBOB

10-4 I'm currently working on Lexington, Kentucky Coca Cola bottles. There are seven straight-side examples on eBay right now but only one of the has the flat crown. By the way, I'm using the term "flat crown" because most of us here know what I mean and its easier to write. Later on we'll deal with the nickname thingo. Anyway, my initial finding is, regardless of the exact dates, most of the Lexington straight-siders *do not *have the flat crown. But what this tells us I don't know yet, just make a note of it for the time being and we'll sort things out later. P.S. I'm going to focus on "Bottlers" first and not glass makers. But when I do switch to glass makers, I'd like to research ROOT.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Savannah, Georgia Four straight-side Coca Cola examples currently on eBay. Only one has flat crown.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark / iggy / anyone / everyone ...                                                 I just had a brainstorm! [light]  It's got to have something to do with *LIGHTNING-TYPE STOPPERS / WIRE CLOSURES !!! * Nothing else makes sense and I believe Bill Lockhart hit the nail on the head right from the get-go. I seriously believe we need to focus our attention on that aspect first and see where it takes us. Hence, I plan to search for every possible reference I can find to connect Coca Cola with wire closures.


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## Bass Assassin

I think so too Bob. I kinda have a feeling the bottlers were requesting the bobbed crown tops. I looked at 4 other Amber DOC bottles and all 4 were the regular crown top


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

I realize what I'm suggesting falls squarely in the lap of the *glass makers*, but the main question I'm hoping to find an answer to is, "why" did certain Coca Cola bottlers need or want to use wire closures when the crown cap was so readily available? Somewhere in the realms of the Internet we will find a reference or quote from some old-time bottler who's going to say ...                 "In the early days I used wire closures instead of crown caps because ..." (And however he finishes that sentence will not only answer the question but solve the mystery)


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I believe its as you said more than once, the bottlers "wanted" and "requested" the flat crowns and the glass makers were just accommodating the bottlers "needs." By why did the bottlers need or want bottles that would accommodate both types of closures - the crown and the wire?


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## SODAPOPBOB

Questions: 1.  Around 1905-1910, which was the *cheapest*, the crown cap or wire closures?2.  Around 1905-1910, what was involved in capping bottles versus applying wire closures?


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

3. Were wire closures reusable?4. What if a bottler had 10,000 surplus or reusable wire closures but no crown caps?


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## SODAPOPBOB

I apologize for this bombardment, but that's how I clear my mind. Remember, I said I had a brainstorm. Now you know what I mean. Anyway, we're not talking about just any ol' bottlers here. We're talking about Coca Cola bottlers from ... 1.  Lexington, Kentucky2.  Savannah, Georgia3.  Monroe, Louisiana Why would these particular bottlers want or need wire closures?  Find the answer to that single question and its game over!


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Lastly ... Let's take them one at a time. Because we already know quite a bit about Joe Renwick and the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works, let's start with it ... What do we know about the OVBW early history around 1905 that would explain why they would want or need wire closures?  I'm thinking if we can't answer this question about a bottler we are familiar with, then the other bottlers are irrelevant.


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## iggyworf

Should this one be added this one to the list? Good closeup of the closure & top. What do you think?Providence RI.  
http://www.ebay.com/itm/R-RARE-STRAIGHT-SIDE-SS-SHOULDER-SCRIPT-COCA-COLA-BOTTLE-PROVIDENCE-R-I-/171651663321?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27f73c85d9


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy I'd say no because it appears to have a typical crown. I have seen dozens of examples of crown soda bottles with various types of wire closures. Which raises another question; why all the fuss with flat-based reinforcing rings when the indention under a typical crown would accommodate a wire bale just fine? If we are to believe the so called Bobbed Crowns were specifically designed to work with both types of closures, then there must have been a good reason. I'm beginning to think that reason was nothing more than a ...                                                          *Experiment*


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## SODAPOPBOB

I just heard from the eBay seller who has the block-letter bottle. Here's what he had to say ... "I Just gave it another once over and there is nothing of a Glass Makers mark at all. I know most all bottles have something on them telling you who made it but this one is a mystery."


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## SODAPOPBOB

An experiment that was short-lived, failed, and was discontinued!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Food for thought regarding my "Experimental Bottle" theory .... 1.  Hutchinson and other types of wire closure bottles were popular for many, many years2.  Straight-side crowns replaced Hutchinson's3.  Straight-side crowns were, for the most part, used between 1905 and 19154.  The Coca Cola Company was the largest user of straight-side crowns5.  Certain Coca Cola bottlers would have been perfect guinea pigs for an experimental bottle


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## SODAPOPBOB

Question:  Why are there no Bobbed Crown Hobbleskirts? (Which was patented in 1915)                 Answer:    Because the Bobbed Crown experiment crashed and burned.                              (Now all I need is to find evidence to prove my theory)


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## SODAPOPBOB

Long story short ...   http://www.hutchbook.com/Industry%20History%20Hutchinson%20Era%20Demise/Default.htm Not only did the Bobbed Crown experiment crash and burn, but anything other than sanitary crown bottle caps eventually crashed and burned as well!


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, I read that last night. Matter of fact I read in great detail about the demise of the Hutchinson stopper and was going to share all that information. After looking it over, I realized we were dealing with Lightning style closures and not Hutchinson. Hutchinson stoppers were deemed unsanitary and ceased to be used. The Lightning style was different since the cap/cork/stopper wasn't pushed down inside the bottle. I think you already have stated the obvious answer earlier, and that is....the bottlers already had all these Lightning style closures on hand and wanted to use them since they were already bought and paid for. I just can't see another reason why they would continue to use them (Lightning) unless they still had a surplus inventory on hand.


----------



## iggyworf

Here are the 4 "Bobbed crown" bottles in question for comparison. Bobs bottle being first. If you notice  It seems to me that Bobs is considerably flatter on the underside of the "Bobbed Crown" than the others. A more pronounced edge. Is that how it looks to you guys?  I wonder if that means anything. I briefly thought your bottle Bob was a 'freak' bottle so to speak. You are thinking experiment now. But I was afraid to bring that up. My knowledge is far less than you guys. But I am learning more everyday. (just hope it stays in my head)


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggy Thanks for the grouped image. I need to "learn" how to do that! 
Mark / Iggy

                                    I know we are all on the same page and agree ... 

1. The flat-base reinforcing ring was intentional and designed to serve a specific purpose.
2. That purpose was to anchor the wire bale on some type of stoppered closure.
3. The flat-base was not a random fluke.
4. It has thus far only been found to occur on straight-side Coca Cola bottles.
5. It occurs on bottles made prior to 1915. With my Root 540 bottle probably prior to 1909.
6. It was produced by at least three different glass makers.
7. It occurs on block-letter bottles as well as script bottles.
8. It occurs on amber as well as aqua bottles.
9. It occurs on bottles from at least three different cities/states. 

We know Ouachita Valley Bottling Works used a Hutchinson bottle and that it was produced by Root Glass in 1901 or later. For the time being let's assume the Hutchinson bottle was their first bottle and at some point between 1901 and 1905 they transitioned from a Hutch to a Crown.

Taking into account all of the above, there a few specific questions I keep asking myself ...

Q1: Where is the evidence to support Ouachita Valley Bottling Works ever used any form of wire closure such as a Lightning stopper?

Q2. Why would the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works want or need a bottle designed to anchor a Lightning-type wire closure?

Q3.  When would Ouachita Valley Bottling Works have used a Lightning-type wire closure?

Q4.  Where would a surplus of Lightning-type wire closures have come from?


                The best answers I can come up with at the moment all boil down to a single word ...  


*Experiment* 

I have more to say about this theory which I will address later, but for the time being will let it rest here.

The following are links to the Bobbed Crowns currently on eBay. The dates are for when Cecil Munsey claims those particular bottlers began bottling Coca Cola. The rest is information from the seller's descriptions. I would like to believe all three bottles are BIM, but only one of the seller's descriptions addresses that aspect.   

Lexington, Kentucky  ~  1904  ~  Amber  ~  BIM/?  ~  D.O.C. 342  ~  Base Script     

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171655398843?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Savannah, Georgia  ~  1902  ~  Aqua  ~  BIM/?  ~  A.B. CO.  ~  Base Script 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400571533729?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Block-Letter  ~  Amber  ~  BIM  ~ Unknown Date, Location, Glass Maker 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261750341830?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Images ...

1.  Lexington, Kentucky
2.  Savannah, Georgia
3.  Block-letter ~ Unknown


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One more question ...        There are probably ten jillion regular Crown Coca Cola bottles for every Bobbed Crown ...                                                            Q5.  *Why?*


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Question of the day ... I have David Graci's 2003 book "Soda and Beer Bottle Closures 1850-1910" which is the most extensive book of it's kind I am aware of. It has 52 color pictures of different closures and list many others, some of which include black & white illustrations. The one thing more than anything else that captured my interest is that of the numerous wire-type closures pictured on original bottles, the majority of the bottles are blob types and are relatively smooth where the finish meets the neck. In other words, the bottles do not require a symmetrically flat underside in order for the wire bale to be securely anchored. Some of the closures/bottles date as far back as the 1850s. Hence, we see a timespan of at least 50 years where wire closures did just fine by being anchored to the indention below the finish without the need for a symmetrically flat underside. As we have seen, even typical Crown finishes have enough of an indention beneath the reinforcing ring to accommodate a wire fastener to be securely attached. So ...                                                            QUESTION: Why design a Crown finish with a symmetrically flat underside when it worked just fine for wire closures just the way it was without changing a thing?                  ( I have another theory and it doesn't necessarily involve an experiment )                                                         [ I'll be back ]


----------



## iggyworf

Looking forward to hearing your theory. I noticed that also, about the closures. I looked for any SS soda bottle too see if any of them had that flat underside. Could not find any.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Here's my new theory, which may or may not have involved an experiment The symmetrically flat underside of the Crown finish was *not *designed to attach a wire bale of any type but was designed to serve in some manner to secure the bottle during one or all of the following  ... 1.  The Handling of the bottle2.  The Filling of the bottle3.  The Washing of the bottle4.  The Capping of the bottle5.  The Dispensing of the bottle 6.  Etc.


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## SODAPOPBOB

iggyworf said:
			
		

> I looked for any SS soda bottle too see if any of them had that flat underside. Could not find any.



 iggy I looked for other example too and could not find any. In fact, I quit looking and don't plan on going down that blind alley again. But what I am looking for is bottle handling, washing, filling, and/or capping machines that might have been used in connection with the flat underside. I doubt it was designed for hanging the bottle because the underside "lip" is only 1/16 of an inch wide and would easily chip if hung or improperly handled.


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, the DOC bottle you referenced in post 723 is a blown in mold bottle according the following....1. DOC / x or xx on base (mouth-blown) – all on beer or export beer bottles – probably pre-1896 2. DOC x to xxxx on heel (mouth-blown) – beer or soda bottles – ca. 1896-ca. 1920s; Coca-Cola
bottles and possibly some others had this pattern as basemarks.
3. DOC x (or xx or xxx) - x on heel (machine-made) – only soda bottles – ca. 1914-1931; These occasionally had a space instead of a hyphen.


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## Bass Assassin

We interrupt the show you are watching to go to this late-breaking live newsflash Lol, just kidding. Bob, on a hunch I am looking at early 1900 beer bottles and guess what? Out of 9 iv'e looked at I've already seen 2 with the "bobbed crown." One is a Schlitz.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mark I'm a little confused. Are you saying you saw a Bobbed Crown on a Hutchinson bottle or a Crown bottle?  And are you looking online or bottles you own?


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## Bass Assassin

I found some bobbed crowns on early 1900 crowned beers on eBay.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Please describe how to find them and/or provide links?  Thanks.


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## Bass Assassin

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=191095059737


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## Bass Assassin

Sorry, I use my cellphone and sometimes I just can't copy a link for some reason


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## SODAPOPBOB

I found a couple of early Schlitz bottles with the Bobbed Crown. This link is to the one made by the A.B. CO. / American Bottle Company ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schlitz-A-B-Company-Beer-Bottle-Amber-Antique-Bottle-/261749402942?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf17aed3e Mark Great find. Now we know the Bobbed Crowns were not exclusive to soda bottles nor to just Coca Cola. I'm not sure what that tells us regarding the purpose of the flat underside, but it definitely opens up more possibilities. Another line of thought I'm having is the flat underside didn't serve a specific purpose at all but is just some type of not-so-typical Crown with a sheared-off base that had something to do with the way it was applied to the neck. Unfortunately, I'm not all that versed on how finishes were formed/applied/etc. So I guess I have some homework to do and try and figure that out. By the way, I have another nickname for the finish. It's ...                                                         *Sheared Crown*


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## Bass Assassin

Bob, we could almost classify these crowns in 2 categories. 1 being the "sheared" crown such as your OVBW bottle and the other category could be the "bobbed crown" which are the ones that are a little more rounded on the bottom edge of the supporting ring


----------



## iggyworf

Yeah, I am starting to think bob's bottle could be an anomoly. Almost like its an *unfinished crown* top that a worker or somebody made and took home from the bottling plant or something like that. All these others we have found have the edges considerably more rounded off than Bob's. But still have some flatness on the underside to them. I have mentioned this before but didn't get any response as to what you guys thought about it. I hope I am not talking out of my arse. I'm sure I could be. It would strengthen our efforts if we could find one like Bob's. It's too bad we can't see pics of Bills bottle to see if it's excactly like Bob's. I looked alot last night for more examples but could only find a Pepsi that came close so far. I am just enjoying this thread and trying to come up with idea's. Hope you guys don't mind my novice thoughts.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Mark / Iggy I have mixed feelings whether the other Bobbed Crowns are the same or just similar to mine. In some of the pictures the edge part appears smoother and more rounded, and in other pictures the edge appears sharper like on mine. I think it would be necessary to do a hands-on examination of several examples to know for certain. If Bill Lockhart comes up with a definitive answer, then I will go with his findings. If not, then I plan to purchase one or more of the other bottles and examine them for myself. Based on my understanding of the information contained in Bill Lindsey's extensive website, (see link below) the finishes on the bottles in question were "formed in the mold" and "not applied." Because we are talking about BIM bottles that were finished with a "tool," that leads me to believe there might be more than one type of those "finishing tools." But what I don't know is whether the flat underside was formed in the mold itself or the result of the finishing tool. That's why we need the expertise of someone like Bill Lockhart and/or Bill Lindsey who have been researching and documenting this stuff for years. Link ...  http://www.sha.org/bottle/finishes.htm


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*In search of ...* A circa 1905 *finishing tool* used on BIM Crown bottles that has a distinctive "flat" feature near where the finish joins with the neck.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's the illustration of a typical Crown finishing tool that would have created a rounded area where the finish meets the neck. What I'm searching for is a similar tool but one that has a flat extension where I placed the red arrow.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

One thing we can be reasonably certain of is the flat underside was "formed" in some manner and is not some unexplainable fluke. And that "forming" had to of been achieved by one of two methods ... 1.  In the mold2.  By a finishing tool ... but which of the two it is, I do not know.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Because we know the majority of BIM soda bottles have the typical rounded finish, then we can also be reasonably certain the bottles with the flat underside were exceptions to the rule and that the glass factory "crew" who made the hand-blown bottles would have been well aware of the differences between a rounded soda bottle finish versus a flat soda bottle finish. With the point I'm trying to make being, the crew would have been instructed to produce certain bottles one way and certain other bottles another way, and that whoever instructed them had a specific reason for doing so. Even though I am not certain, I am currently of the opinion the finishes in question were "achieved in the mold" and not by a finishing tool.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

However ... (and I just remembered this) My bottle is definitely a BIM, but it also has a tooled finish, which is obvious because of the disappearing seam and the tool marks on the neck. Which means, even if the flat underside was primarily achieved in the mold, the tooling process that followed had to of involved a special tool as well, otherwise the flat underside would have been entirely wiped out in the tooling process. Which in turn suggest the flat underside was probably achieved by a combination of both - the mold and the finishing tool.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

But why? Why would they make certain bottles one way with a rounded finish and other bottles a different way with a flat finish?  There's got to be an explanation somewhere!


----------



## Bass Assassin

iggyworf said:
			
		

> Yeah, I am starting to think bob's bottle could be an anomoly. Almost like its an *unfinished crown* top that a worker or somebody made and took home from the bottling plant or something like that. All these others we have found have the edges considerably more rounded off than Bob's. But still have some flatness on the underside to them. I have mentioned this before but didn't get any response as to what you guys thought about it. I hope I am not talking out of my arse. I'm sure I could be. It would strengthen our efforts if we could find one like Bob's. It's too bad we can't see pics of Bills bottle to see if it's excactly like Bob's. I looked alot last night for more examples but could only find a Pepsi that came close so far. I am just enjoying this thread and trying to come up with idea's. Hope you guys don't mind my novice thoughts.


No iggy, we don't mind one little bit. You are a great help and your participation is very much appreciated.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Look at what I just found (and searching for more). This particular tool was not used on Crown bottles but it does show a similar flat underside ... which suggest to me that tooling, and not just molding, was a definite factor. Patented in 1901


----------



## Bass Assassin

Good research Bob. Still wondering if some of the bottlers asked the glass companies to tool these tops so that they could use a lightning style closure if they wanted to. Got to be some information somewhere pertaining to tooled tops and closures. Will keep looking


----------



## Bass Assassin

Bob, read the last line and tell me what your interpretation is. 
Hand tooled blobs up until 1905
Bottles embossed “Registered” or “This Bottle Not To Be Sold” 1893 and later Baltimore Loop Seals 1885-1905
Hand tooled Crown Cork Seal 1892 to 1915 or earlier.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Never mind, I was thinking something totally different when I read this. I think the crown caps simply had a cork lining inside them. For a minute I had a picture in my mind of a crown made of cork.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Here's a finishing tool called a ... *Glass Blower's Implement  ~  Patented in 1905* I acknowledge it does not have a flange for forming a flat underside on the reinforcing ring, but posting it to give us a general idea of one example being used in 1905. I still believe there is a tool showing the flat flange and will continue searching for one. If it was just one glass maker that produced the flat Crown, that might lend credence to some type of prototype experiment. But because there were at least three glass makers doing the same thing at the same time, it seems to suggest more than just an experiment, although it might have been. I hope Bill Lockhart comes up with an explanation because I'm about a stone's throw away from being totally stumped.


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

*William Painter* Because it was William Painter who invented and patented the Crown finish/closure in 1892, its possible that any alterations/changes made to the finish in the following years, no matter how subtle those alterations might have been, could possibly have his name associated with it, even if those alterations involved a mold or finishing tool.


----------



## Bass Assassin

Yep I stumbled across a website last night that referenced Painter Cork Crown and Seal. I feel like our answer could be there somewhere


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

Process of elimination ...

*No Connection with Capping Apparatus*

                                                        (That I can find) 


Because of earlier references that said machinery at Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was
"antiquated / primitive," I spent several hours searching early bottle *capping *apparatus,
devices, machines, to see if any of them were designed that might explain the flat underside.
Because there were hundreds of apparatus listed, I only focused on those patented in 1910
or earlier. The long-story-short of it is, I did not find a single bottle capping apparatus that incorporated the use of a reinforcing ring with a flat underside. Those that had attachments for holding a bottle securely in place during the capping process were usually in the form of a half-circle metal ring in which the mid section of the bottle was placed against. Most if not all of the capping apparatus I looked at were either hand or foot operated.

Here are the links to just a few of the apparatus I'm referring to - all of which were for Crown finish bottles. The dates are for when they were patented.

By the way, I also did a brief search for bottle *filling *apparatus, but couldn't find any connection.

1900
https://www.google.com/patents/US660322?dq=bottle+capping+device&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dqzLVKGZMoa2ogT35oDoCw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBjigAQ

1904
https://www.google.com/patents/US777784?dq=bottle+capping&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2vrLVKb8D9LZoASCv4D4Dg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAj1905

1905
https://www.google.com/patents/US798579?dq=Bottle+Capping&hl=en&sa=X&ei=07DLVNbjA9PVoASa44Io&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCDhk

1910
https://www.google.com/patents/US946138?dq=Bottle+Capping&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qq_LVP3BOcysogS35oLYBw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA

1909
https://www.google.com/patents/US939141?dq=Bottle+Capping&hl=en&sa=X&ei=56_LVJCbBpSLoQSB5IHACw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAjg8

1910
https://www.google.com/patents/US962030?dq=bottle+capping&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sfzLVN3JNNDhoAS4rYDwCw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAjiWAQ


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

The basic definition of "*Occam's Razor*" is ... "The simplest answer is usually the correct answer" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor With Occam's Razor in mind, I am back-to-basics (which Mark has been a supporter of all along) in that the flat-base reinforcing ring was intended to anchor some type of closure. However, this doesn't necessarily mean the closure had a wire bale, nor that it was a Lightning-type. The closure used with the flat-base reinforcing ring might have been a *N**on-typical Crown *similar to this example patented in 1912. (And still searching for something earlier than 1912).


----------



## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. Where there is one weird Crown finish/closure, there are bound to be more ???


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## SODAPOPBOB

Like I said earlier, I'm pretty much stumped. But before I call it quits altogether, I'll go out on a limb with this guess and say ... *I believe the flat-base reinforcing ring was intended to anchor some type of closure. But whether that closure had a wire bale or some other type of securing device, I do not know. In my opinion the flat-base attribute is too distinct and too deliberate not to have been designed and produced to serve a specific purpose.* I can't say what the flat underside looks like on other bottles, but this is what it looks like on my bottle ...


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## SODAPOPBOB

I rest my case!  []


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## SODAPOPBOB

For future reference and possible research ...



*                          The Bernardin Bottle Cap Company  ~  Evansville, Indiana *


*History*
http://robbernardin.com/Custom.aspx?apId=66979


*History*
https://www.facebook.com/notes/will-smith/in-the-history-of-evansville-indiana-bernardin-bottle-cap-company/10152070784188309


*History*
http://www.hutchbook.com/Industry%20History%20Lawsuits%20Imitations/Default.htm


*The Competition *
Http://www.bullworks.net/virtual/infopages/crowncork.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB

(Additional Research Material)  *                                                     Bernardin Bottle Cap Patents * *https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=pts&q=Bernardin+bottle+cap*


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## SODAPOPBOB

[font="comic sans ms,sans-serif"]*1903*[/font]


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## SODAPOPBOB

*?* http://www.averysoda.com/about.html


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. I don't know when the neck-ring bottle cap was invented, but because Avery's was established in 1904, the cap pictured above cannot date to any earlier than 1904. But neither do I know how late the cap might have been used.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*Lastly ...* I have presented all of the so called evidence I am likely to find to explain the existence of the flat-base reinforcing ring. But even with that said, I'm still stumped! Now its up to Bill Lockhart and the Bottle Research Group. If they can't figure it out, I suspect no one can.


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## SODAPOPBOB

*                                                       In Search of ...*                           Circa 1904-1910 (any pre-acl) Avery's soda bottle


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## iggyworf

Thanx Bob for all the research. And Bass too. This has been a fun thread. Hopefully the BRG will come up with something.


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## Bass Assassin

Yes, thank you so much Bob for all the research you have done. This has been personal for me since it is centered on Monroe. I wish I could have helped more but with my job(I work 9-10 hours a day) and my father-in-law battling cancer I really didn't get to put very much effort into it. Thank you too iggyworf for your help and interest in this thread. Lastly, thanks to my new friend Mitch who started this thread and gave me the ss coke. Are we done? (I'm kind of hoping there's more to come)


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## SODAPOPBOB

There's nothing I like better than a good soda bottle research challenge, especially when its related to early Coca Cola history. Perhaps one of these days Joe Renwick and the Ouachita Valley Bottling Works will get the proper recognition they deserve as a significant link in a long chain of Coca Cola bottlers. I will always treasure the Monroe bottles I acquired during the course of this thread and will likely keep my eyes peeled for others. Speaking of which, I wonder what happened to member steviecheri? I even sent he?/she? a PM to ask about the I.G. CO. hutch but never did hear back from them/? Other than info about that hutch, the only loose end I can think of that hasn't already been discussed is in regards to the flat-base Crown, and I'm hoping to hear from Bill Lockhart about that one of these days. Based on what I know about Bill, he is like a bloodhound when it comes to a bottle attribute he hasn't already researched and is curious about. I expect we'll hear from him eventually and when I do I will be sure to share it with everyone here. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion, especially Mark, iggy (or is it iffy?), Mitch, and steviecheri. There's nothing like a good mystery to capture our attention and keep the ole juices flowing. Eventually, I might do another recap, but will need to reread this entire thread again and take some notes first. I just hope the administration doesn't lock it down because you never know when and where the rabbit will jump out next. Later, alligators Sodapopbob


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## SODAPOPBOB

These three pictures sum it up best!


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## SODAPOPBOB

Just for the record ...                       As of this posting, this thread has received *18,740 *views                                              ( Congratulations, Mitch )


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## goodman1966

I never dreamed this bottle would create this much info ! I want to thank everybody who contributed ! Your welcome Mark, that bottle has surpassed the Two word game. Bob, I give you my word, if I ever find another similar bottle, It will defiantly be yours. You have earned it ! 
Mark you asked for it ;  Hey Bob I was driving down the road today thinking about that "flat based crown". Let me ask you this. Was it made that way for the early capping tools or machine to hold the bottle in place during capping ?   Mitch


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## goodman1966

Look and ye shall find ! Got this off goggle images. It was patented in 1920, but something similar could have been in use for much longer.  [attachment=image.jpg]


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## SODAPOPBOB

Mitch Thanks for the kudos - but had you not started this thread the OVBW history might still be a mystery.   I searched for various capping devices but never found one that mentioned anything about a flat-base Crown closure. I found the patent for the capper you posted a picture of, and even though it does not mention any specifics about the bottle type, it does say ... "The invention is particularly designed to automatically grasp the neck of the bottle while the cap is being applied, thereby facilitating the bottle capping operation, and at the same time enabling the application of the cap and the sealing of the neck of the bottle, and the securing of the cap to the neck of the bottle, to be made with uniform efficiency."  

Bottle Capping Implement
C.A. Bunker
1,362,776
December 21, 1920

I searched but could not find an earlier example of this particular type of capper, although there might have been. Most inventors get their ideas from other inventors/patents, and then either alter or improve on them. But I will say this much, in the illustrations below the bottle appears to have a flat-base Crown and is the closest thing we've seen thus far. Parts 18/19 are described as "Bottle Grasping Jaws."

Here's the link to the original patent ...

https://www.google.com/patents/US1362776?dq=bottle+capper+december+1920&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gz_OVOjTHsLfoATRpIDQAQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA


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## SODAPOPBOB

For future reference ... This is to confirm Schlitz beer offered both *Cork *as well as *Crown *closures at the same time at least as early as *1909* https://books.google.com/books?id=05YwAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA2-PR11&lpg=RA2-PR11&dq=schlitz+bottle+crown+or+cork&source=bl&ots=PY5DjAPbV6&sig=EorzBwhddYZl5ulGjKDbA9HtHpc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O6fOVOq2KIbqoASSooCYCQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwDTgK#v=onepage&q=schlitz%20bottle%20crown%20or%20cork&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB

Typo/Correction ... I meant to say "as *late* as 1909 and no doubt earlier"


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## SODAPOPBOB

P.S. It goes without saying because beer is carbonated and under pressure that a beer bottle sealed with a cork would have needed some type of wire fastener to hold the cork in place. But whether Schlitz offered more than one type of bottle, I do not know. I only know I have seen early Schlitz bottles that appear identical except that some have a flat-base Crown and some have a typical Crown.


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## SODAPOPBOB

Three quick notes ... 1.  I have not heard back from Bill Lockhart and will wait another week before doing a follow-up 2.  I received my 75th anniversary Monroe bottle and it is in pristine mint condition. The only other information I can tell you is that it's embossed on the base in Coca Cola script along with 3,B : 7   22   1345 3.  I offered the eBay seller $100 for his block-letter, amber, Coca Cola bottle but he replied back saying he paid more than that for it and will keep it if it doesn't sell for his Buy It Now price of $225


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## mcdonaat

Alright guys, I know this thread has somewhat died off, but I came across a straight-sided Coke bottle from Monroe, LA at an antique shop in Vicksburg, MS. It's the same exact style as the one posted on the first page, with Property of Ouachita Coca-Cola Bottling Co., Monroe LA, but where is the date? The only number I see is on the heel of the bottle, where a 1 exists, followed by some digit that's pretty much destroyed. I see a "1462A ROOT", with MAYBE a "14" following it. Curious as to what the rarity of a 1914 Ouachita CC Straight-Sided Coke would be! I also found a Biedenharn bottle, in the same design as the Coke, except it says "Registered Property of Biedenharn, Vicksburg, Miss" that holds 7 ounces, ROOT at bottom, 1915 date. It's been repaired slightly (bottom has been filled in on one corner of bottle) with a B on the bottom. Also came across a 1915 Patent Coke from Vicksburg (bottom says "Vicksburg, MISS 1" with a 1927 date on the bottle itself. Any info on what I might have found?


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## goodman1966

Hi Andrew, you have found a nice bottle if it's in good shape. Hopefully sodapopbob will chime in for you. If he doesn't send him a pm. If you decide you don't want it, I would like to have it. Of course I'd like to see some pics, does it have any condition issues ? That Monroe bottle would most likely be the second year of issue for Biedenharn after his move to Monroe. Value depends on a lot of things. Demand, condition, rarity......etc. 
  The other two I can't help with, sorry. You didn't mention what they wanted for those. And that's ok. But it would help to determine if they are worth it. I have been to some of the Vicksburg shops and find them to be overpriced in most instances. Funny thing is during this whole thread the value of the bottle I found was never discussed that I remember.........  Mitch


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## mcdonaat

The bottles are in fair condition, not amazing condition, but you can distinctly tell what they are. I do still want the Monroe Coke one, but since the Biedenharn bottle is from across the river, I would be more likely to get rid of it. I can't figure out how to post photos directly, so I created a set of photos on Imgur. Here's the link - http://imgur.com/a/NbvUV


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## lesliewestbrook

Hello all, I'm found this site/thread while researching my Ouachita Valley brown Coca-Cola bottle just like the one discussed in this thread. It's the only other example I could find. It belonged to a woman who is now deceased, but lived her life in north Louisiana and collected brown bottles. Mine is in pretty good shape with just a couple of chips. I've been very intrigued reading through some of this thread. I just listed it on Ebay, offers and corrections are welcome. http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272523400377?


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## iggyworf

That is nice. Thanx for posting!


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## Bass Assassin

Haven't seen that style bottle before. To be perfectly honest, I don't think you will have any offers at that price.


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## Bass Assassin

Also, Beidenharn didn't start OVBW, he purchased it. This bottle was before Beidenharn took over operations and changed the name to Ouachita.


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## lesliewestbrook

I honestly don't expect to sell at the buy-it-now price, but I purposely set it high so I wouldn't miss out on the best offer someone might be willing to make. I'll entertain all offers and interest. Thanks for the correction about the bottling company.


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## Bass Assassin

Wishing you success and thanks for showing your bottle


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## lesliewestbrook

If this bottle is from before Beidenharn took over, and he changed the name to Ouachita, then what did the "O" in "O.V.B.W." stand for before he purchased the bottling company? "O.V.B.W." is printed on the underside of my bottle.

Also, if what you say is correct, does that mean that the bottling company was bottling Coca-Cola before he purchased the company?


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## Bass Assassin

Yes, Ouachita Valley Bottling Works was bottling Coca Cola before Beidenharn ever arrived in Monroe. He changed the name to Ouachita Coca Cola aka Ouachita Coca Cola and Candy Co.


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