# Purple Watkins Trial Mark bottle



## snmashar (Jan 15, 2011)

I have an embossed Watkins Trial Mark bottle that is purple. It has seams running through the top, a double collar at the top, and a trademark on the bottom that is an I in a diamond. The I/diamond mark is inside a larger circle with rather rough edges...sort of pleated along the edges and distorted...with no additional dating numbers/letters. It is the 8.25" tall, 3" wide, 1.75" thick flask or rectangular bottle. There is no paper label or other markings on the bottle.

 From the research I've done online, the trademark is for Illinois Glass and the bottle was probably made on an Owens bottle making machine. I've seen various dates for the I/diamond mark that say it was used in the 20's, but one site said it was used from 1915 to 1929. The bottle is a deep purple, not a light purple, and there is some iridescense on the inside which I think must be from being buried. I thought the bottle was probably an old "manganese" glass bottle that turned purple from extended sun exposure. However, I've read online that manganese was used as a decolorizing agent in glass only until about 1915. In other words, unless the I/Diamond mark really WAS used as early (or earlier) as 1915 it is unlikely that it would appear on a sun colored purple bottle. 

 I bought the bottle...simply for its deep purple color...at a 2nd hand store. They said it was not an old bottle, "probably only about 40 or 50 years old". It was only $2. I have been unable to find ANY reference to a PURPLE Watkins bottle anywhere online. I have read...repeatedly...that Watkins bottles are common and not worth anything, and also that old manganese glass is sometimes irradiated to make it turn darker purple or turn purple more quickly and that this ALSO devalues sun 'purpled' glass.

 I haven't found any mention of modern purple Watkins bottles (I know they still use a Trial Mark bottle), or of reproduction Watkins bottles...particularly purple ones. But the implication is also that it would be unusual to have the I/Diamond trademark on a bottle made of glass that was decolorized with manganese.  I don't CARE if it is valuable or rare, I'd just like to know that it is "old". 1915 or even 1920something is old, to ME. Can anyone help date this bottle, or give me better information on the when they stopped using manganese in glass to decolorize it, or if there if there were utilitarian bottles, like Watkins bottles, that were purposely colored purple (not sun colored) and when those were made. Thanks very much.


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## appliedlips (Jan 15, 2011)

Without a picture it is hard to be sure, but I'd guess it is a 20's or later bottle that has been artificially irradiated. Although manganese was used regularly before 1915 it was also used later and can be naturally occurring in the ingredients in the glass. Some bottle much later than 1915 can sometimes turn purple through irradiation. Value would be minimal whether it was in its original state or altered. It is an old bottle,however and not modern.


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## cowseatmaize (Jan 15, 2011)

Welcome!
 This is from Cecil Munsey's An Illustrated Guide to Collecting Bottles.
 "From around 1880, when the demand for clear glass... until approximately 1915, at which time World War I cut off the main source--Germany--manganese was America's most widely used decolorizing agent. By 1916 glassmakers were using the more stable but also more expensive decolorizing agent, selenium.".
 Illinois Glass is thought to have gone to machine process around 1910. Your description is wonderful. I would think that it's right in between 1910 and 1916.


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## RED Matthews (Jan 15, 2011)

Hello snmashar;  Welcome to the FORUM.  This subject of  (SCA) Sun Colored Amethyst and irradiated glass
 is something that is really disturbing.  I have a bottle that was irradiated and the only thing I can recognize as a difference, is the fact that the older glass has other inclusions of dirt and bubbles, while the irradiated glass is newer and usually batch house loaded cleaner glass quality.   
 Thanks for starting the thread - the subject is of interest to me.  RED Matthews


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 15, 2011)

Post a photo, It gives us a better idea what we are discussing..


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## snmashar (Jan 20, 2011)

Here are a couple of photos of my purple Watkins Trial Mark bottle. My only editor option that compressed them to below 200kb goes WAY below. This is the first time I've tried compressing and posting photos online. I hope they show are adequate. I thank everyone who has responded so far. OK, I see it will only let me load one photo, so that's all there is!


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## snmashar (Jan 20, 2011)

Here's the a shot of the whole bottle. I can see bubbles in the glass...not too many, but some very small round and elongated bubbles. But nothing like dirt or other inclusions. I'll try to take a photo of the base tomorrow.


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## coboltmoon (Jan 20, 2011)

Can we possibly get a picture of the mark. Owens Illinois mark was first used in 1929 (some say 1928).  

 In the pic is an OI mark


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## snmashar (Jan 20, 2011)

The marks on my bottle are rather "flat" and indistinct. Here is the best shot I got of the I in a diamond mark from the bottom. This also shows the round mark that is, supposedly NOT a pontil mark, but from some suction thing on the Owens machine. There is also a 6 on the bottom, back, lower edge. I'll post that photo, too.


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## snmashar (Jan 20, 2011)

Here is that mark from anothe angle. In this one you can see that it's not crackle on the bottom, it is more like pleated/wrinkled glass.


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## snmashar (Jan 20, 2011)

And here is the 6 that is on the lower back. I couldn't get it to come up clearer. It is not an 8, it is a 6


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## coboltmoon (Jan 20, 2011)

Ok I understand now, it was made by Illinois Glass Co with an Owens abm seal.  Your bottle is a cork top with a crude Owens seal which is usually 1920 or before.  I would say your bottle was made in 1914-1916 due to the manganese content and other indicators.


 Owens merged with Illinois Glass Co in 1929.


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## AntiqueMeds (Jan 20, 2011)

you are correct it is not pontil marked, it missed that by about 70 years.


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## David Fertig (Jan 21, 2011)

I'd have to say it's been nuked.  

 I have found dump bottles and shards in very deep SCA colors, but 99.9% of the time you see a bottle like this, it has been altered.  I do not advise buying these, even if very cheap, as doing so only encourages the fakers to make more.

 Dave


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## woody (Jan 21, 2011)

The was a vendor at the Keene, NH bottle show who sold irradiated/nuked glass.
 He told me that he does very well selling them and that alot of people like the color.
 To each his own, I suppose.....


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## appliedlips (Jan 22, 2011)

Yes, your bottle has definately been irradiated. Manganese content, however is not a reliable method of dating a bottle, Ive had previously aqua hobbleskirt cokes from the 50's turned as purple as a grape. I have also had early aqua glass( not de-colorized with manganese) turn due to naturally occurring manganese. These bottles with trace amounts of manganese will not purple in the sun but when exposed to extreme levels of UV they will turn. I'll stick with 1920's-30's for a date.


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## coboltmoon (Jan 22, 2011)

IMHO A 1930â€™s Watkins bottle would have been a screw top and a smaller and less crude Owens seal.  I don't see anything that would make me think the purple bottle was made after 1920

 Pic of screw top


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## coftexas (May 6, 2011)

I have the same bottle - junk store find.  However mine is not nearly as deep a blue as yours is - yet.  Actually mine is very pale in contrast to yours.

 Through my research I have found that the bottles turn blue when exposed to natural light.  The depth of the color depends on the amount of time and light exposure.  I've been told by a local collector that my bottle most likely was exposed to very little light.

 I was also told that these bottles and bottles with the manganese laced glass are VERY collectible.  So much so that reproductions are now being made of the blue & purple variations in modern bottles.

 Congrats on your find - I'm thining about putting my bottle outside and leaving it to see how long it will take to change.  Maybe - then again I really like it the way it is - lol.


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## cowseatmaize (May 6, 2011)

Hi Connie and welcome. They used to call it desert glass in the 60's. The amount of direct sun and how dark it gets is also dependent on how much manganese was in the batch. The more there was the darker and faster in turned. I think it eventually reaches it's saturation point.


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## surfaceone (May 6, 2011)

> However mine is not nearly as deep a blue as yours is - yet.Â  Actually mine is very pale in contrast to yours.
> 
> Through my research I have found that the bottles turn blue when exposed to natural light.


 
 Hello Connie,

 Welcome to the A-BN. You prompt a question by moi: How many bottle collectors are color blind? I've heard it affects males much more so than females.

 Bottles containing manganese (perhaps selenium too) will turn Amethyst in the sun after long exposure. Not blue or brown. The deep deep purple is pretty generally a sure sign of manipulation by modern means. Though I have seen some dark purply desert glass.



> I was also told that these bottles and bottles with the manganese laced glass are VERY collectible.  So much so that reproductions are now being made of the blue & purple variations in modern bottles.


 
 I gotta ask who was doing this telling? Collectors of antique glass dismiss this modern "nuking" as anathema. It may appeal to collectors of shiny colorful stuff, but it nearly negates the "value" of antique glass.


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