# How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards?



## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

Here's some different shards that I dug that I am curious about. The first 2 go together and I already know what it goes to, but which one? The others I have no clue about. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

Another pic. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

And another. Swizzle


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## downeastdigger (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi Swiz,
 Now you're talkin[]   I'm a big fan of Shard IDing!   I have a big collection of colored pontiled shards I've dug over the years,  they are fun to collect because I dont have to worry about breaking them.

 It's hard to tell yours from the photo,  but the bottom one in the group photo looks like a Masonic flask.   Could the one with the letters be a yellow amber Clark and White mineral water?

 In April we will be hosting the New England Bottle club show here.  I am hoping to have a show display in a side room,  displaying the best and rarest shards from my collection , and from anyone who wants to bring them.  I'll have them all layed out and labelled what they are and where they were dug.

 Glad you enjoy the shards as much as me 
 Bram


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## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

I'm not sure about that shard. The only 2 shards I've got a positive ID on is the ones in the first pic. I'll give you a clue. It's a horses head and the first time I've ever dug up a horses @$$ and it looks like he's pulling something. Swizzle


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## cobaltbot (Oct 12, 2006)

Success to the Railroad flask!  I'd be smiling for months if I dug a mint one of those!  I guess my best shards are from a USA Hosp. Dept bottle.


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## downeastdigger (Oct 12, 2006)

Wow, a success to the railroad, nice!   When I go home tonight (where my camera is)  I'll post some of my shards.  Hopefully we won't bore everyone else on here, but hey, they can go to the next posting right?  []   
 I brought home the top neck piece of an olive amber Swaims Panacea last night from digging.  
 Bram


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## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

I just wish I knew which of the 5 different types of success to the railroad flasks this one is. I'm hoping to find more shards to it.  There's a few acres of shards spread out all over the place. Finding an untouched hole that survived the 1970's diggers will be the real trick. This appears to be very shallow and widely spread out although some of the holes are 6 to 7 feet deep. I will mention that it is in the lower Adirondack region of NY. Anyone close by that might want to help locate a pocket or 2 in the future? I will be going back up again before winter to get some GPS coordinates. If your willing to make the trip PM me and we'll talk about it. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 12, 2006)

That one shard might very well be a clark and white's. I just found out that this is the same glass houses that manufacture Saratoga Spring Mineral Water's. WooHoo, Now I'm happy. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 22, 2006)

Hey downeastdigger, I thought you was gonna post some shards? Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 24, 2006)

More shards from the same hole. Only a few feet from the Success To The Railroad flask I found the base to a Cornicopia/Urn or Vase. I also got 3 bases to dark green or black glass umbrell inks. Some more shards to the Success to the RR and some others I haven't ID'ed yet. Sorry no pics yet but I'll get a few later. Still gonna need some help finding a good hole with whole bottles on this one. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 24, 2006)

What was the cornicopia flask made to commemorate? I know the success to the rr flask was made to commemorate the completion of the transcontinential RR from east to west in 1869, but what about the cornicopia? Hmmmm.... Swizzle


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## Mainepontil (Oct 24, 2006)

Yeah Bram, I'm waiting to see them too.[8|]


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

Shards Away  !
 This is an old school desk that I display some of my best shards in


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

Woulda beena teal Iron Pontil Meyers Rock Rose from New Haven Ct


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

On the left would have been a PINT profile Lafayette jar,  the left would have been a FAVORITE jar ( last one auctioned at Hecklers for $11,000)


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

One of 2 broken dark teal green Willington Eagle flasks I dug


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

There are only 2 or 3 whole examples known of this quart green Chittinango Springs mineral water bottle.  Dug it with friends in Chittinango NY.  It was one of my first "permissions" privies I ever got myself.  Not many whole bottles though


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

Several pontilled colored inks


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

Have dug a fair amount of whole ones, so the shards don't hurt too bad. All of these bottles were dug


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## downeastdigger (Oct 24, 2006)

The "Mother of all Shards"
 This shard was dug by a friend, and I traded whole bottles for it.  It is a thick panel from a bottle that lines up almost exactly with a Townsends.   It is olive amber, and is embosse "  , N.H. "
 It's not a Kimballs, or a Sweets or any other known med.
 My best guess, after a lot of research is that it might be an embossed variant of a "Fowler's Stomach Bitters",  which is a rare bottle from the small town of Bristol NH,  but it is a "label only" bottle.  The bottle itself is a tall paneled bottle, so if the same proprietor had an embossed bottle, it could possibly be this.
 My hope is to find a whole one


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## capsoda (Oct 24, 2006)

Great shards Bram. I used to collect them and probable still have a few of my favorites hidden[] but the wife said bottles or broken glass but not both. I already have bottles in evry room of the house.[]


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## Mainepontil (Oct 25, 2006)

There is a whole lota heartbreak there.  Isn't it funny how you can dig a dump full of broken pontil shards then that one whole bottle is a 3 in 1 oil ???


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

I'll be posting some shard pics a little later. I just wanted to say that I started to compare the shards that I dug yesterday with the shards that I dug last time and was I surprized. Not only did I dig more shards to a success to the railroad flask but I dug another shard to a different success to the railroad flask. I have the back legs of the horse pulling the wagon and the other shard you can see part of the horses leg and the wagon wheel. I also have a bunch of shards that I can't identify yet. I also have what I believe to be a piece of a pontil rod. The one olive amber pontiled 8 sided umbrella looks to have some light embossing on the base. I'm starting to wonder about this 8 foot round hole that I found all of these in. I'm hitting undisturbed dirt and water only a foot down. I'm thinking this hole is only shards. There has got to be a good pontil hole here somewhere. HELP!!! It may be a while before I get the pics posted but it will be sometime today. swizzle


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## earlyglass (Oct 25, 2006)

Swizzle,  I'm anxious to see your shards. I will post some as well. 

 Bram,  I have looked at that "N.H." shard a dozen times already. Can you tell me if this label only Fowler's bottle was a Stoddard square and in the Townsend size? 

 Being an unlisted colored pontilled NH bitters... this would be the mother of all New England bottles! I have to see a whole one in my lifetime. 

 Mike


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## downeastdigger (Oct 25, 2006)

Hi Mike,
 The Fowlers bottle is in the Ring Bitters book, it is  F-74

 I'm at work now, but I cant remember the exact shape, but it is close to a Townsends but a more sloped shoulder.   It is only embossed  "FOWLERS - STOMACH BITTERS"  but not BRISTOL , N.H.  which is what I'm guessing could be a variant that I dug.  Just a possibility,  since I havn't been able to come up with a better guess.

 Bram


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Dang it batteries are dead once again. I got 4 on the charger and I only need 2. I'm gonna try to get the pics posted before 3pm. That's some awesome black glass you got downeastdigger. After staring at the base of the ink until I got a headache I still can't read the embossing. I'm not sure if it's symbols or numbers and letters. It looks like 4 X 4 only the 4's are backwards and the X is missing a good portion of the bottom and looks like or could be a V (weird). All three of the ink bases that I dug have a little dimple on the bottom in the same spot. Dang it I wish those batteries were charged already. Are pontil rods swirled? I have a 4" piece of swirled glass thats broken off at both ends. I'm thinking that the rod got to short so they busted it off and tossed it. Anyone have any info on the cornicopia flasks? Swizzle


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## earlyglass (Oct 25, 2006)

The "4x4" is known to be embossed on some of the umbrella and cone inkwells from Stoddard. Funny that you see this as well on the bases of the Gibbs Bone Liniment bottles, as I had believed those to have been produced at the Mt Pleasant Glassworks in NY. Not quite sure what the 4x4 means, but your eyesight is fine. There is often a "002" as well. 

 Mike


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Kinda strange to find stoddard glass at a glasshouse that made saratoga mineral spring water bottles don't ya think? So there very well may be a lot of fake stoddards out there? That's what it sounds like to me. Swizzle


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## earlyglass (Oct 25, 2006)

Well, there is no doubt that the lines are very blurred between the Stoddard NH glasshouses and the Mt. Vernon and Mt Pleasant glasshouses of NY. The glass color and consistency is almost identical. Both produced an abundance of utilitarian type bottles. You mention spring waters... both produced an abundance of spring waters as well. Looking at these "larger" quart bottles it is a little easier to tell the difference. Overall, the Stoddard glass comes in mostly amber tones, and I would say that the "light golden amber" color is almost all Stoddard. Most of the upstate NY glass is a darker olive green and somewhat murky. 

 Getting back to the 4x4... I beleive it is used on the base of the GV-2 Success To The Railroad flask from upstate NY as well. I have personally dug cone inks with the 4x4 base at the Stoddard glasshouses. Can you add any information about the NY glasshouses? Have you dug these sites? Just curious, because this stuff can drive you nuts! I may be confusing the "4x4" with the "2x2"... where are my notes!  []

 Mike


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

I can't really add much. I only know that it was where they made some of the saratoga mineral spring waters and that its been dug on and off since the 1970's. There isn't much evidence of recent digs and I might be the first serious digger in the spot since the '70's. I also know the shards and melted glass chunks are wide spread over a good acre and probably more. The two deep horseshoe shaped pits acroos the road make me scratch my head as well. There is a well and what maybe foundations or diggers pits in several areas. I couple test holes that I've dug have revealed bricks and wet ash and sometimes glass shards or just bricks shards and glass chunks. The one chunk of glass/limestone that I dug probably weighs 4 lbs. Maybe a byproduct of the furnace? Another thing that gets me about this place is that all the glass is on top of the hill and I have only found a little bit of pottery and very few shards on a slope heading down to the creek. There are a lot of confusing stonewall formations. Some obscured by past diggers. I would really like to meet up with a digger with more experience and go over the area with me to get another point of view. I might be digging a pit where waste glass was tossed and no whole pieces exist. But I know there are old bottles there that the past diggers haven't gotten yet. there has just got to be. The one cornicopia flask dates to 1820/50's. I'm guessing more to the 1850's and the big bottle digging trend didn't start until the 1970's. That give the surrounding forest 120 good years to cover up a pontil hole or two. I'm also wondering about the area privy's? Seems to me a glasshouse that started a community of 100 to 150 family's would have a substantial privy somewhere? It's a big area that needs to be looked at again with the help of pro and semi pro diggers. HELP!!! Swizzle


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## earlyglass (Oct 25, 2006)

Swizzle, I will tell you this.... the glasshouse sites have (for the most part) been extensively dug. I have had conversations with a digger who dug the Stoddard sites in the 60s for many years. He did find some things, but very few whole bottles. I have spoken to locals who remember flocks of diggers in the 40s and 50s. I know that Herbert Mason and Harry Hall White would dig these sites back in the 20s, and go house to house looking for pieces. These sites always leave me scratching my head, because 20 years later they can look like virgin sites! 

 With all of that said, first I would gather any information from previous diggers. If that is unavailable, just plan a systematic approach. Map out an area, bring 5 gallon buckets, and take the glass out of the ground so it is not redug year over year. If you feel unconfortable taking the glass, scatter it in another area and really confuse future diggers! []  Try to look in the "not so obvious" areas. Everyone digs in the furnace area, everyone finds the pile of cullet (glass waste reused for future batches), but look else where. I ventured over to a large rock about 60 feet from the site, and dug. Well, what I found almost broke my heart... it was a small size GW Stone medicine, about 1/3 of it. I found little fragments of the rest scattered about. I would guess that it was thrown from the glass house on to the rock long ago. Oh well, the good thing about digging these sites are the great shards of glass, and none of it is average, it is ALL great glass! Good luck!

 Mike


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Thanx for the info earlyglass. I'm thinking about checking some of the more distant cellar holes. Maybe a mile or 2 down the road. Hopefully they will have privy fulls of good glass. Well time to slow down the internet. Here's a bunch of pics. swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Sorry about the blurry shots. Here's the 4X4 I was telling you about. It's hard to see in the pic. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

And some more...


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Is that a pontil rod? This is the pic that you can see is 2 different success to the rr flask. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

The wagon...


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Misc. pieces? Maybe Clark & White?


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Cornicopia piece?


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Urn or vase?


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Cornicopia base..


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

End of the Cornicopia.


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

Another pic of the 4X4. Swizzle


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## earlyglass (Oct 25, 2006)

Thanks Swizzle... someday I will call you Jason and you can call me Mike![][] 

 I will take some pics of some of my shards.... you will see just how similar these glasshouses (which are roughly 250 miles apart?) are almost identical. Many of your utility, whiskey and ale bottles also have the dot in the base center which is well known for Stoddard glass. It certainly is interesting.  

 Mike


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## swizzle (Oct 25, 2006)

I think that's all for now. Swizzle


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## downeastdigger (Oct 28, 2006)

This is from a couple of years ago,  I dug all these shards and glued them all back together. It is almost,  a Smith's Green Mountain Renovator from Vt,  pontilled.


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## downeastdigger (Oct 28, 2006)

Here are parts of 2 Lafayette flasks.  I dug one in Exeter NH, and one in Epping NH.
 Both of these towns are on rte 101.   There is a plaque on that road that calls rte 101 "The Lafayette Road" or something like that.  It tells how after the Revolutionary war, General Lafayette travelled this road from Portsmouth to Concord NH,  like a victory tour type of thing, I think.  It made me wonder if these Commemorative Lafayette flasks were somehow distributed or sold during this time.
 Guess I should research it more, so I'm not just taking guesses here.


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## CazDigger (Oct 28, 2006)

Hey swizzle, 1/2 pint Corn/Urn flasks (GIII-11), pint Success To The RR (GV-5), and pint and quart Lafeyette/Masonic flasks (GI-88,89) were all made at the MT Vernon (Vernon NY) 1810-1844 and Mt Pleasant 1844-1869? (near Saratoga). Mt Pleasant made many, many Saratoga type mineral water bottles, inks/utilities (often marked with a dimple in the base), medicines, etc. as well as many other bottles and glassware. The glass  is usually olive/amber or olive although they made aqua, forest/emerald green bottles as well. There is a guy named Rich Strunk who has dug there extensively over the years, although the past couple he has been too busy to dig. He has been documenting his finds to keep an inventory of what they made there.
 Mark Yates


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## earlyglass (Oct 28, 2006)

Cool stuff Bram and Swizzle! Great info as well Mark. Yes, the NY glasshouses operated within the same timeframes as the operations in Keene and Stoddard NH, and in many instances you cannot tell the difference. Shards like these are the only real documentation to inform collectors. Here are a few shards that I picked out that were dug at Stoddard. I have much better stuff, but here are a few. You can see the Hutchins & Mason from Keene, NH, as well as a piece of the small GW Stone (my shard broke in my truck). I also have some Stoddard eagles, freeblown wares, etc. 

 Mike


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## earlyglass (Oct 28, 2006)

Here is a shard "at work"... 

 I was thinking about purchasing this GREAT Stoddard milk bowl, and was a little unsure, as I often am with freeblown glass. Well, I had picked up this shard of a bowl from the New Granite Glassworks site in Mill Village, Stoddard, NH. It matches identically to the rim of the perfect bowl. That was enough for me! These shards really come in handy!

 Mike


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## capsoda (Oct 29, 2006)

Thats great Mike and a shure fire way to ID something.


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## swizzle (Oct 29, 2006)

Wow, is about all I can say. How long did it take you to Id my flask shards? I am thourally impressed. I know these shards aren't of any great value money wise. I am wondering however how important these shards really are historically? The glasshouse I was digging at isn't in Mt. Pleasant. I have other shards that I'm curious about as well. I just didn't want to start a long boring thread on busted glass. I can see though that there must be some interest since we are on the 3rd page and still growing. If these pieces are important historically in any way then I would gladly donate them to any scientific study or museum that might be interested in them free of charge. If they are just cool to look at then I'll hold on to them for future reference. I would also be glad to go back up and collect more pieces if neccessary. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 29, 2006)

Here's a couple more pics of an odd piece with a rust stain. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 29, 2006)

another view. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 29, 2006)

and down the hole. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Oct 29, 2006)

a better view of the side. Swizzle


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## swizzle (Nov 6, 2006)

bump


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## earlyglass (Nov 8, 2006)

Hey Swizzle... I could be wrong, but I think this is part of the gather that was attached to the blowpipe. The round iron residue was probably broken off from the iron blowpipe. The blowpipes were sometimes used as pontil rods as well. I have seen some of these pieces at glasshouses in NH too. Have you found any punty (pontil) rods yet?  Mike


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## swizzle (Nov 8, 2006)

Interesting. I'm not sure if I've dug any pontil rods yet. I have a few pics of a twisted aqua colored piece of glass that I thought might be a pontil rod but I'm not sure. It'd make a nice drop for the center of a wind chime. So how do I find out for sure what that piece is? Is there a place that I could send it to for possitive ID? Thanx again. Swizzle


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## earlyglass (Nov 8, 2006)

Your twisted aqua piece is probably a piece of a cane. Aqua was an unusual color for the glasshouse that you are digging. 

 The pontil rods are iron, and usually rounded at the end. They would have a small amout of molten glass at the end of the rod which was adhered to the base of the bottle. This would allow for the blowpipe to be snapped from the top and a lip to be applied. Once cooled, the pontil rod could be snapped off. 

 About your piece there, just ask around. I know a little about the glassblowing process, but I am sure others could enlighten us. 

 Mike


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## cobaltbot (Dec 17, 2006)

Didnâ€™t find much today except two PA license plates in great shape from 1958.  It was a great day to be out anyway especially for December.  In the afternoon I went out to check the land to see what has been going on after three weeks of deer season.  I have a place with a celler hole way back in our woods and Iâ€™ve found some shards on the hillside near there but havenâ€™t found the dump if there is one.  Some of the stuff is old like some gray and cobalt crock pieces but also newer stuff like Durkees.  I found part of a hutch once but the only whole bottle Iâ€™ve found there was a Davis OK baking soda of course.  Today I scratched around there in another attempt to find something and pulled up this, what Iâ€™m assuming is part of a General Taylor aqua flask.  I would love to find a whole one of these, especially on my own property.


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## Mountain Man (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi Swizzle,
 This is a Boulle' (not sure of spelling) that is the remnants of the gather of glass on the pontil rod that the bottle is blown from.  The red staining is iron oxide that comes off the tongs used to manipulate the glass.  The glass at Mt pleasant cooled off very quickly as it was worked thus became abrasive to the iron.  This staining is very evident on Mt Pleasant items and according to Norm Heckler is is also seen on some of the Connecticut glass.
 Mtn Man


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## Mountain Man (Dec 29, 2006)

Hi Again,
 I have a huge collection of organized shards from Mt Pleasant and am happy to discuss or id what you have found. Most of the site has been dug but there is still some areas that need checking.  A site visit is possible as I am in the Mohawk Valley.  They did make amber, aqua, lime green and pucy amber colored glass, but the vast majority was olive green.  The works dates from 1847-1866.  
 Mtn Man


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## graniteglass (Apr 26, 2007)

A few nice relics from the Granite Glass Co. & New Granite Glass Works sites in Stoddard, NH. Larger disk about 3-1/2 inches diameter, 1/2 inch thick, large U.S. ONE CENT impression. I excavated this piece in 1987 about eight inches deep just a few feet in front of the Granite Glass Co. factory foundation which was most likely the threshold and this piece the glass works prosperity token put there by the superintendent or owner upon inception from the first melt as was the practice of many craftsman of the period in many trades especially with glass making. Truly a remarkable piece of Stoddard glass making history and one that has a long story for later reading. Next up a COGNAC seal embossed "OTARD DUPUY & Co. COGNAC" with embossed grape vines. Nicely made, completely intact and about perfect condition save for some superficial high point wear from where it was located in the stream bed just behind the New Granite Glass Works factory site by a fellow Stoddard enthusiast from whom I acquired the piece. This seal was impressed on the marver but for some reason never applied to a bottle. Next up a "slug" of glass likely intended to be a seal but never impressed, unearthed with the aforementioned large cent disk during my 1987 dig. Lastly, a nice little glass drop with delicate loop found under some bricks of all places near the glass factory foundation. Enjoy !


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## graniteglass (Apr 26, 2007)

Additional pic of the Granite Glass Co. Large Cent prosperity token that I excavated in 1987.


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## wolffbp (Nov 21, 2009)

Swizzle, please contact me with regards to this thread.  thx


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## willong (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks for the post, graniteglass. I'd never seen a "prosperity token" before. Are you saying that the practice was to deliberately bury the piece under the threshold? Were they typically placed in just one location?

 Looks like it would make a dandy paperweight.

 willong


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## CazDigger (Jan 13, 2010)

I was just reading this thread again yesterday and thought "I know I have seen this before" I went through my shard boxes and came up with this one, it is exactly the same seal. I always assumed it was French, not Stoddard. My pieces were dug in a 1830-1850 privy about 8 yrs ago in Upstate NY.


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## CazDigger (Jan 13, 2010)

The seal is marked OTARD DUPUY & CO  COGNAC with a grapevine & bunch of grapes.








 I know, I need to get a life!


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## earlyglass (Jan 13, 2010)

That is it Mark. I have one of these seals as well, but just the seal... it was found in Mill Village at Stoddard. I have seen roughly a half dozen of these. Also to note, that these early looking applied string lip tops were also done at Mill Village. I only know of 2 whole bottles with the seal.

 Mike


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## saratogadriver (Jan 13, 2010)

I've never been able to afford one for Mom's VT bottle collection.  What a cryer.   The best we've done are the two aqua renovators.  Very crude but NOT Stoddard amber...

 Jim G



> ORIGINAL:  downeastdigger
> 
> This is from a couple of years ago,Â  I dug all these shards and glued them all back together.Â It is almost,Â  a Smith's Green Mountain Renovator from Vt,Â  pontilled.


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## bottlechaser62 (Jan 14, 2010)

Downeastdigger- great pic of some very crude bottles..............whats that ink to the left of the cannon? Is it an early butlers? Also- did you dig that small Carters cathedral - 4th from the left on shelf?

 thanks for sharing!


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