# What would you like to see in a bottle book?



## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

I am considering putting out a new PRINTED medicine guide in 2112 (assuming the world doesnt end).
 I have put out a CDROM price guide for many years but people are always asking for an actual paper book.
 I would appreciate some feedback from forum members about what they would like to see in a bottle book.
 Answer as many questions as you can. If you dont want to post the answer here you can email me mknapp@antiquemedicines.com
 A lot of effort goes into this so I want to try and get it right.
 My feeling at the moment is to do something similar to the Fruit Jar Redbook in phyical format (large paperback).
 THanks.

 1. What size book is best , a large 8 1/2 x 11 (thinner) or a small handbook like Kovels/Polak size (thicker)?

 2. How important are photos, are drawings ok?

 3. Would you want actual average values, dollar price ranges, a relative rarity indication, or no values at all?

 4. What type of binding is preferred?  Paperback stitched, paperback spiral/comb,  hardback stitched?

 5. What level of bottles should be included?  Rare, Common, All?

 6. Would you still want a cheaper CDROM option?


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## NCdigger5 (Jul 22, 2011)

I think it defintely should have some photos, but all descriptions dont need photos. . Also, there should be some common bottles listed, but mostly rare. Just my opinion and the book sounds like a great idea.


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## accountantadam (Jul 22, 2011)

I think a book would be an excellent idea. I know as a newbie collector I'm always looking for reference guides to help me out. I think drawings/descriptions would be ok, I know i'm learning to identify my jars by the drawings in redbook. I would like to see actual average values for bottles, (what they've really been bringing). I know some books are way out of the ballpark compared to what I see on ebay, flea markets, etc. As far as what bottles to put in, some of both would be good. I'd like to see some of what I'm likely to be finding when I'm out and about, but it would be nice to know some of the rare ones as well in the unlikely event I would come across something rare. Hope this helps - just the humble opinion of a newbie []


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## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

I want to make something beginner collectors can use, not just advanced collectors.
 So all opinions are important to me. Thanks


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## tigue710 (Jul 22, 2011)

1 larger is better, 2 photos are better, but much more costly to print which would bring up the cost of the book, I think a good selection of photos for rare or colorful bottles but the majority of examples drawn out. 3 yes to values and price ranges and yes to rarity... 4 Hardback  5 all.  6 yes


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## cyberdigger (Jul 22, 2011)

> 5. What level of bottles should be included? Rare, Common, All?


 
 I think if you include as many bottles as possible, it will be more useful to more people. I don't know if expert collectors would get tired of leafing through pages of commons, trying to find out about a rare one, but I'm sure all us novices would appreciate a well-listed guide.. a bigger book costs more, of course.. more royalties for you..


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## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

> royalties


 
 If I break even I would be happy.[]


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## RICKJJ59W (Jul 22, 2011)

How about some privy diggers in action.    [8D].     And a section for "dug" bottles,not  just. Attic mint stuff.


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## Wheelah23 (Jul 22, 2011)

If you made a book, Matt, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. When I'm out and about, the most common embossed bottles I find whose values I don't know are medicines. I come across medicines all the time I've never heard of, and I never know if I should buy them. Sometimes it's worth the gamble, and other times I get burned.

 I don't have a redbook, but I think that they used a successful model for pricing a sector of collecting, based on all the good things I've heard about it. 

 I'd say any bottles worth less than $10 in good condition should be in a giant list, like this website has. If I see a bottle on that list, then I'll know not to pay much for it.

 Bottles worth more than $10 deserve their own individual entries. By this I mean typical shapes/sizes, with average price for each, and "EXACT EMBOSSING/ FOR/ EACH BOTTLE". Obviously it should be alphabetized by product, sort of organized like a bird field guide. I'd like a small book that I can carry easily when I walk through antique shops. Pictures are nice, but I think they should only be used where needed. I think concise descriptions of the shape/color should be enough. "Rectangular, 5" aqua, embossing on front panel", etc. should be enough. 

 I'm really looking forward to you putting out a book, Matt. You'll be doing the hobby a great service. Everyone here would like to thank you! Thanks!


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## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

> How about some privy diggers in action.


 
 I'll leave that for when you write your autobiography "Sick Rick : My Hole Life" []


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## cyberdigger (Jul 22, 2011)

One question I keep coming to is.. how 'dead' is the printed word these days?
 I figure many if not most people go online to find out whatever they're curious about, unlike the good old days when we went to the book store and picked out a good reference book or field guide.. I still have all of mine but I never use them. 
 Perhaps if you present it as a high-end coffee table type book, with lots of great pics and historical stuff about the best, the rarest, and the most successful meds of yore.. this way, serious collectors might consider it a "must have" in their library, next to McK's..
 The CD rom could contain basic info about all med bottles and be affordable to anyone with a fresh bite from the bottle bug...


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## RedGinger (Jul 22, 2011)

I think pictures and drawings would be good for your book.  Everyone is attracted to photos, so the more the better imo.  I would include as many bottles as you do on your medicine guide.  I would also like to see what the current prices are or each bottle.


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## Wheelah23 (Jul 22, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> One question I keep coming to is.. how 'dead' is the printed word these days?
> I figure many if not most people go online to find out whatever they're curious about, unlike the good old days when we went to the book store and picked out a good reference book or field guide.. I still have all of mine but I never use them.
> ...


 
 I think a bottle "field guide" would sell better, and in the long run help more people. I think if you switched the order it would be great. Maybe the book could come with a CD, and on the CD would be detailed pictures and information about the best and rarest. A black and white text guide to medicines is what I'm out trekking through the antique shops of NJ... [&:]


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## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

> how 'dead' is the printed word these days


 
 I use a lot of printed bottle references.
 Personally I would rather have them all in digital form.
 It makes searching much easier and they dont take up space on a shelf.

 From the feedback I have got over the years a lot of people would rather have something on paper.


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## RICKJJ59W (Jul 22, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Hahahaha Its weird you say that,Mike Polak said something on the same  lines the other day. Who knows maybe its a sign [] I'll have to wait until I get a little older,because my "Hole Life" isn't  over yet, i'm still diggin [8D]


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## Gunsmoke47 (Jul 22, 2011)

I like the printed word. I always have even though it is more space consuming than a cd. I like pictures over drawings. I like the scale of a bottles worth (such as common, uncommon, scarace, rare, 5 known, 1 of a kind known) more so than actual prices because prices change from year to year. I think all should be included just so new diggers/collectors can get an idea of how scarace they are. I love hardbacks but I also know that really jacks the price up on the author and the buyer. I'll tell you this, I will buy your next book whatever you choose to make it .  Kelley


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## cyberdigger (Jul 22, 2011)

..lots of good advice and thoughtful opinions here.. it's nice to see the thinking caps on.. []

 With prices, I'd say save it for the most valuable ones and cite auction results and the years when appropriate.. I think for all the rest a simple rarity rating would suffice.. maybe a price guide section for frequently bought/sold ones in the $20-100 range..?


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## rockbot (Jul 22, 2011)

I like paper. I can take my book to the privy[], or outside etc. Usually that is the only free time I have to fantasize about what I would like to have.
 Color variations are very important and should be listed. Even common bottles come in not so common colors.


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## accountantadam (Jul 22, 2011)

I would definitely like to have something printed. I know I've taken my redbook everywhere with me since I got it, even if I leave it in the car until I see some jars. The rarity rating is a good idea on the common bottles, with more detail for rarer ones.


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## GuntherHess (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.
 A lot to think about.
 A book would give me a good excuse to get a table at some bottle shows.
 Anchored to a table, I wouldnt be able to easily elude other forum members[]


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## RICKJJ59W (Jul 22, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> Thanks, I appreciate the feedback.
> A lot to think about.
> ...


 
 Hahahaa yeah you would just wear that camo getup , Gunther? where?


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## RIBottleguy (Jul 22, 2011)

Well by 2112 we'll probably all be dead anyway [].  Let's see, I would include common bottles and less common bottles with a few rare ($500+) bottles thrown in.  I think it will really help educate non-collectors that you see on ebay trying to sell Bromos for $20 and the like.  That said, values (a price range) would be great, and pictures are preferable.  I would say have B & W pictures throughout the book and a leaf in the middle (like Kovels) of color photos of really rare medicines.  A rarity rating would be great too.  As long as it comes out, I don't care about the binding type, but the cheaper the better.
 Also, I'll volunteer for contributing pictures of RI medicines.  I have a nice archive at my disposal.


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## JOETHECROW (Jul 23, 2011)

Gunth,...great idea. 
 I love antique medicine bottles, and I love great pictures of antique bottles, stemming from my early years of poring over library books, soaking up all that I could. It would be a great culmination of all of your research, hard work and medicine knowledge. I pretty much echo Tigue's thoughts for a format. I too would buy a copy, to have and keep, and refer to, and just enjoy and read. I'm an old school book person. I hope you decide to do it.


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## BillinMo (Jul 23, 2011)

Excellent idea.  I'd definitely be interested in buying.

 I'm not really a med collector, but I am the nerdy archivist type so I like having books and references on all sorts of subjects.

 So to answer your questions, Matt: 

 1) Size doesn't matter (how's that for a cheap joke setup...).  Seriously, though, 8.5 x 11 or smaller is fine, larger would be cumbersome.  I don't have a preference. 

 2)  Photos would be great.  Drawings would be fine as long as quality is considered.  I've seen too many bottle and insulator books with crude, ugly drawings that a ten-year-old would scoff at.  

 3)  I'd prefer price ranges and some indication of relative rarity would be nice.  I can understand having the price list as a separate entity so the book doesn't become obsolete too quickly. 

 4)  Sturdy binding is essential.  Method doesn't matter, as long as the book holds up to being carried to shows and used again and again. 

 5)  I like comprehensiveness, so I'd like to see everything listed, even the commons (perhaps limited to American or North American items).  Depending on how the book's organized, I'd also like to see a cross-reference index by med category, name, city, etc.  as the Fike book has. 

 6)  I'd probably like having the book, but a lower-cost CD rom would be a great idea.


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## surfaceone (Jul 23, 2011)

Hey Matt,

 This is exciting news. I think having a real bound book is a signal lifetime achievement. Knowing you a bit, I'd think it would be comprehensive to the maximum. Sturdily bound, please. Double ugh on those plastic spiral ones!

 A CD would be a double bonus, and so 21st Century.

 Please put me down for one.


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## GuntherHess (Jul 23, 2011)

I am not a fan of the plastic comb bindings. That is the biggest problem I have with ODells pontil guide. Used it a couple times and the  pages all fell out (otherwise its a great work).
 I have an ancient beat up copy of Baldwins Patent and Proprietary Medicines, hard bound, read a thousand times and the binding is still perfect.


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## cyberdigger (Jul 23, 2011)

How about full page pix of bikini models holding valuable bottles?


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## Wheelah23 (Jul 23, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  cyberdigger
> 
> How about full page pix of bikini models holding valuable bottles?


 
 I think we'd ALL like to see this in a bottle book! I second this notion! This man is on to a great idea! [8D]


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## Steve/sewell (Jul 23, 2011)

Matt,
 If my Mckearins or other larger bottle and glass sources were on Disc I would never bother opening the books ever again.Searchable media is where the game is played in our impatient world.Plus you cant update printed books without printing a supplement. You would spend a fortune to put together a proffesional book.Our hobby just doesnt attract a large percentage of the antique collecting community. A book on CD is perfect and sell it with 2,3,4 year or lifetime updates depending on what the person buys.Heck you dont even need a CD just offer the book as a download in PDF or Word whatever format.Your overhead cost would be dramaticaly reduced.I think it would sell very well and I would buy it right away. Good luck with whatever endevor and I would buy the book also.


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## appliedlips (Jul 24, 2011)

Call me old fashioned but I still prefer to read on paper. I have several references downloaded on my phone and use them occasionally. I have been having a friend who is a printer, print out your book for a couple years now, refer to it alot.


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## GuntherHess (Jul 24, 2011)

> How about full page pix of bikini models holding valuable bottles?


 
 Are you offering to model???


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## saratogadriver (Jul 24, 2011)

Gunther, talk to Ed and Lucy Faulkner.   They have been doing the only new ink book out there for the last decade for a while.   It's ring bindered and self published (they did it through some local publisher and have copies made when they sell them).   It's not perfect, but it is a heck of a lot more in depth than Covill when it comes to details about the various manufacturers.

 Things they did right.   Color, as many inks as they could get access to, pictures of all.   Excellent detail with papers for various manufacturers when they could get them, and as much research as possible.

 Things I think could use improvement.   I'd like to see the bottles ordered solely by manufacturer name.  I'd like to see ALL the bottles from one manufacturer under that manufacturer's name (they did SOME bottles by type umbrella etc and some under manufacturer).  I think they should have tried to get permission to use Covill pics for bottles they couldn't get access to (don't know if that was possible but it would be a more complete listing of every ink that exists).  They emphasize that it was not their intent to document EVERY ink.   I think you have been trying to diligently document every medicine.

 I'm not big on the price guide.  It's out of date before you publish it, and, as debate on here indicates, value is very subjective on the best of dates.

 Good luck to you.   We could sure use a GOOD medicine bottle guide.   

 Jim G


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## cyberdigger (Jul 24, 2011)

> ORIGINAL:  GuntherHess
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 I'll do it.. but then you need to include a pack of barf bags with each book..


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## VTdigger (Jul 24, 2011)

I'd like to see some personal digging stories/experiances from regular diggers worldwide past and present, ones of good finds, danger, good friends/family, Discovering history,, humor Etc. something like "Digging stories for the soul."


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## peejrey (Jul 25, 2011)

Hey Surf.....If that's heaven's library, than I can't wait!![]
 Seeing as my Dad works in IT at the UMPH, he has lots of computer resources....
 He writes a lot of short stories in his spare time...some are really good..I thought about myself writing a beginning collectors guide to bottle collecting, From the begging collectors standpoint..
 When ever I first started out, about 4-5 years ago, It was hard choosing a book that looked like it would help. I bought Michael Polak's 4th or 6th edition bottle book. It was the one with the $600 Warners. I needed something not with all the big flash stuff..(I only found about 4 bottles in it[>:])
 I found this book at a used book store that was like a 2nd edition..It had them all, and the rest was history...[]
 I thought about doing a B&W book...just a little more updated..

 Matt, You got a good thing going their, and I'll surly buy one when it comes out....Put all you 1000 medicines, and trade cards, and stuff in there, and make it look nice..
 Good luck to you!
 _Preston


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## GuntherHess (Jul 25, 2011)

> talk to Ed and Lucy Faulkner. They have been doing the only new ink book out there for the last decade for a while. It's ring bindered and self published (they did it through some local publisher and have copies made when they sell them). It's not perfect, but it is a heck of a lot more in depth than Covill when it comes to details about the various manufacturers.
> 
> Things they did right. Color, as many inks as they could get access to, pictures of all. Excellent detail with papers for various manufacturers when they could get them, and as much research as possible.
> 
> ...


 
 I have talked to the Faulkners a bit about their book. I think I even provided them with a bit of input on the American Standard Frederick Inks. Many people are currently using "publish on demand" services where they print books as they are sold. This method makes the upfront cost and risk to the author lower but I think it ends up in a higher book cost. I would rather take the risk and buy 300 books  (or however many) up front and be able to sell them at a lower price. I think cost is a big factor since many collectors I know dont have a huge amount of money to spend on books. I'm going more for a working man's book than a glossy coffee table book[]  I'm still leaning towards the fruit jar RED BOOK format but with more research info. I'd love to talk to the Red Book author but his email address doesnt seem to appear on the Red Book website.
 Cross referencing is where CDROM versions really shine. Everything is inherently cross referenced since you have a search feature. Paper books are always going to be more cumbersome to find items in. 
 I am still undecided on how to express values. I have seen many people just state a rarity level (for example 8 out of 10). This can be misleading though since as we all know rarity is not always directly proportional to value.  The only thing I'm sure of is it needs some type of value indication as ~90% of collectors I have talked to consider that a major selling point.


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## westernbittersnut (Jul 25, 2011)

I recently wrote a book and had it published last December. I wrote on a subject that had not been researched very well and had only been briefly touched upon in two bottle books, one written in 1969 with about 2 pages out of 95 pages dealing with the subject matter and an updated version of the same subject written in 1999 with about 2 pages out of 132 devoted to the subject. For awhile I thought maybe there isn't any material available to be able to write a comprehensive story on the subject.
 I spent three and a half years researching and exhausting all areas that would would possibly have information on the subject matter and compiled this information into a chronological story line backed with factual information from sources that were present and writing about this at the time of their operations. All this nineteenth century information which was in black and white I had printed in color because it gave it a more appealing look. I had a quality made book with 100 lb paper with a sewn binding and hardcase cover with pressed title and gold foil imprinted into it. I knew this book would be of interest to western glass collectors and wanted it to be of very good quality as it would be read over and over again because of all the detail included in the content. The book is titled EARLY GLASSWORKS OF CALIFORNIA and is 265 pages. 
 It details all the glassworks that were in operation blowing bottles, insulators, target balls, canning jars etc., during the 19th century from the begining in 1859 through the demise of the largest in 1899. I originally had 125 copies printed and presold for $100 each, since then they have been selling $215 and the last four copies have been sold at $325 each, to collectors of California history and to institutions who have never seen anything written on this subject before. I can have more copies printed but my cost is higher due to the low volume of books being ordered. Currently I just ordered 10 more copies and they can be purchased from me for $225 each.


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## GuntherHess (Jul 25, 2011)

> EARLY GLASSWORKS OF CALIFORNIA


 
 Sounds like a great book. 

 $100 is way too high a sell price for this particular medicine guide. That would price half my intended audience out of the market.

 I have been working on a LONG term book project about early medicines made in the first 30 years of the 19th century. Its a tough subject to research and I think its info that currently isnt very available to collectors.  I may go the fancier full metal jacket approach on that one. 


 Thanks for all the good feedback.


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## baltbottles (Jul 25, 2011)

> I have been working on a LONG term book project about early medicines made in the first 30 years of the 19th century. Its a tough subject to research and I think its info that currently isnt very available to collectors. I may go the fancier full metal jacket approach on that one.


 
 I'd be very interested in this book if you ever publish it.

 As for a medicine guide. I like the PDF file you currently release with average ebay and auction selling prices. I just keep a copy on my phone so its always with me.

 Chris


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## geezer39 (Jul 27, 2011)

An alphabetical index of companies would be great for us newbies who don't know one type of bottle from another. I have a copy of Illustrated Price Guide of Antique Bottles by Sellari I use all the time because it has an index. Trouble is, it was published in 1975 so price ranges in book are way out of date.


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## GuntherHess (Jul 31, 2011)

I was doing some preliminary work on putting the book together and ran into a slight dilema.
 If I use every listing in my medicine database just those listings will take up 700-800 pages.
 This is near the binding limit for most book makers who do limited run books.
 700 pages is the limit, 500 pages for a stitched binding.
 And this isnt even including the photos, historic info or other stuff I would like to include.
 As a comparison, the RED BOOK of Fruit Jars is about 400 pages.

 So, seems I need a compromise approach.
 Either do multiple volumes[:'(] , or dont try to include every variation, or do just a listing/price guide, or some other variation.
 When it was on CDROM size wasnt an issue.
 Any ideas?


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## GuntherHess (Aug 1, 2011)

[8|]


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## Wheelah23 (Aug 1, 2011)

I think it's important to have all the most common variations listed. You don't really need a separate listing for each size. I don't know if that's the problem, hopefully it is.

 I reiterate what I said earlier, I think a simple listing/price guide would be sufficient, with no pictures or history needed. I am very interested in that sort of stuff, but I think it would be counterproductive to include that in the book. I think you'd do better to have that stuff on a supplementary CDROM, so that you could include as much of it as you want in whatever format you want. You could sell the CD as a package deal with the book, I know I'd rather do that.


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