# 7up 3-1-3  bubble bottle!



## iggyworf

Just last week I got another 7up '3-1-3' bubble pattern bottle. Awhile back I posted one I got with this strange 7 bubble pattern. This one is in better condition than my other one. But a little quirky as it has a slight misprint adding to the allure of it. We could not figure out why this pattern was used, but I can now add that both are from Los Angeles bottling co.. I have seen wooden crates from this plant also with the 3-1-3 pattern( and strangley also from Barrington RI) And just one other bottle from San Bernidino Ca. Also in Bakersfield CA, but no bottles yet from there just the actual bottling plant with larges signs that display the 3-1-3 pattern.




Both of my bottles are also 6 1/2 oz not the typical 7oz. both have the same markings on the bottom and both from 1941.



My second one has those two slots cut into the bottom, maybe to keep it lined up for acl printing?



Here are both bottles side by side.

Here is a link to the other post.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/sho...-7-bubble-variation!&highlight=bubble+pattern

Thanx for lookin!

I just noticed also that the 'U' & 'P' are more squared off than on other 7up bottles.


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## iggyworf

Adding a match book to the 3-1-3 story!


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## WesternPA-collector

Very nice bottles. Especially the one on the right. It's very odd that they are only 6 1/2 ounces!


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## Canadacan

Hey congrats on the bottle!...very interesting indeed.


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## bottle-bud

Cool bottles iggy, I have never seen that variation of 7up. The 3-1-3 pattern and a 6 1/2 ounce! Thanks for sharing


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## iggyworf

Thanx everyone! I wish we could figure out why the did that variation.


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## Screwtop

7-up! I like it!


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## SODABOB

Su·per·ca·li·fra·gil·is·tic·ex·pi·a·li·do·cious  ... or what I call a 2-3-2-2-3-3-2-3-2-2-1-2-2-5   


Maybe I can find something to explain it - but don't hold your breath - I've been-there-done-that before and didn't find anything!


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## iggyworf

Thanx Bob! Yeah I know we tried.


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## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

I hope no one was holding their breath because I didn't find out much more about the 3-1-3 labels other than what we already knew. I re-read the previous thread and the general consensus seems to be that the 3-1-3 labels were some type test market experiment. That may be the reason behind it, but I'm having some doubts about that. Here's why I say that ...

If it was a test market experiment ... 

1. Why monkey around with tiny bubbles and not something more noticeable? 
2. How many consumers would even notice the bubble placement?
3. If they did notice, would they really care enough to comment about it to a retailer or bottler?
4. If they did care, what would they say? 
5. Etc; etc. 

Or ... 

6. Maybe the parent company knew that most consumers wouldn't notice the bubble placement and that in itself was the test - to see if anyone really paid that much attention to labels. And if no one, or only a select few, did notice, and did comment about it, maybe it was enough to tell the parent company not to mess around with something that no one really cared about anyway. 

Or ... 

7. Maybe it had nothing to do with a test market experiment whatsoever and it was simply a case where the west coast bottlers wanted something slightly different and special ordered them with the 3-1-3 bubble placement for no other reason than to just be "different" 

Or ... 

8. Because most if not all of them came from the Owens-Illinois plant number 23 (Los Angeles) maybe it was an "inside job" or a so called "night shift job" that involved some goof-offs

Or ...

9. Because ACL applications require a SILKSCREEN, maybe it was just a simple case of a silkscreen maker (most glass factories made their own silkscreens) who goofed-up when he made the silkscreen and ... 

1. They produced a ton of bottles before anyone noticed the goofed-up silkscreen 

2. They noticed the goofed-up silkscreen but produced a ton of bottles anyway until the silkscreen wore out

In other words, take your pick of reasons. Unless someone with the Owens-Illinois Company knows something that we don't, the odds are that it will remain a mystery. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Sodabob


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

If I had to choose one of the above, I'd choose number 9. because no matter what other explanation there might be, the *silkscreen *was where the change took place. But who changed the silkscreen and why just takes us back to question number 1. and we end up going in circles.


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## SODABOB

P.S ~ P.S. 

I did some additional research and discovered that a single bottle silkscreen could typically produce about 40 Gross of ACL bottle labels - with a gross count being 144. Thus, 144 times 40 = 5,760. If this information is accurate as I believe it is, then it was possible that the 3-1-3 silkscreen could have produced about 5,000 ACL labels before it wore out and was replaced. 

Hey, iggy

When you have nothing better to do, howz about doing a count and see how many of those 3-1-3 labels you can find. It should only take you a year or two and we won't hold our breath while your conducting your search. (Lol) Just kidding!


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## bottle-bud

I would kinda consider option #7 in your possible reasons for the 3-1-3 pattern, after all the matchbook cover shows the 3-1-3 pattern and surely the matches did not come from plant #23. Maybe though the printer for the matchbook copied the image from a bottle that was in error or the bottler gave instructions to the matchbook printer for the design so they would both be the same. 
I am so confused! LOL


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## iggyworf

I like #7 also. but it could be any. Also lets not forget the 3-1-3 wooden crate from West Barrington Rhode Island!


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## iggyworf

Ah the mystery deepens!  3-1-3 bottle crate from North Dakota!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-WO...1:g:txsAAOSwxzdZ~jx1:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true


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## iggyworf

Even deeper? Mass.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Co...=item4b30e7fdb9:g:lG0AAOSw401aNaC9:rk:66:pf:0


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## SODABOB

I agree there are other items, including wood cases, and other locations where the 3-1-3 bubbles turn up. But do we know where those items were made? The match book was made by the "Ohio Match Company Los Angeles, Cal."

My comments about the silkscreen was primarily to point out that the bubble placement on the bottles themselves was the result of a different silkscreen than the silkscreens used by the majority of other 7up bottlers at the time. If I'm not mistaken, I believe all or most of the 3-1-3 bottles were produced at the Owens-Illinois plant in Los Angeles. I guess we need to double check and see if the other bottles were made in Los Angeles or some other location.  I can't recall right at the moment.


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## iggyworf

Yes you are right Bob. My two bottles were made in Los Angeles and I have not seen any others yet. Odd that other cities across the country would have ordered crates from Los Angeles, but until we find out more the mystery continues.


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## SODABOB

I just plugged in one of my USB image storing chips and I currently have *589 *images of everything imaginable related to 7up, but not one of them provided a definitive clue to explain the 3-1-3 bottles. I have just about run out of places to look, but the common denominators seem to be ...

*1. Los Angeles 
2. Southern California
3. 1941

*Of course, we already knew that!


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## SODABOB

I just took a quick look through some newspaper archives - focusing entirely on 7up bottling in Los Angeles and southern California in 1941, and the main stories during 1941 that involved the Seven Up Bottling Co. pertained to a confrontation with the A.F.L. (Los Angeles Federation of Labor)  But it seems unlikely this had anything to do with the 3-1-3 bottles. However, notice the bubble placement in this article from ... 


The Los Angeles Times ~ August 4, 1941

[ Save and Zoom if necessary ]


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## SODABOB

I'm not throwing in the towel just jet, but whatever the explanation might be regarding the 3-1-3 bottles and other items with the 3-1-3 bubbles, I'm 100% convinced that it was ...
*intentional 
*
... and not some accidental fluke. But who made that decision and why remains a mystery!


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## SODABOB

I'm not sure this will help but it might. It appears the Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Company was officially established on February 1, 1938. So that might be a good year to conduct some searches and see if anything can be found regarding the 3-1-3 bubbles; especially if there are any 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles between 1938 and 1940


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## SODABOB

Hey, iggy/Rich

I know we have been down this road before, but I just gotta ask, why is it ...

1. That the majority of 7up crates currently on eBay are from Los Angeles? 

2. That every Los Angeles crate starts with the number 6 no mater what the second numbers are?

3. Are we to believe that every Los Angeles crate was made in the month of June?

I bring this up to reiterate that I don't think those stamped numbers are dates. But if not dates, then what do they represent? Talk about mysteries, howz about we try and figure out what the stamped numbers represent once and for all?  I'm in if you are!

Bob


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## SODABOB

This link it to what is described as a 1933 (-1936*) Owens-Illinois catalog. At the top you will notice some comments I shared with them in March of 2017 about the date, which they acknowledged. 

https://sha.org/bottle/oi1933.htm

Anyway, open *File #21 *and scroll to the bottom where you will find a variety of wood shipping boxes or crates. Notice on the  last page of that section where it shows *STYLE NO. 6. *crates. I realize they are the smaller, flat crates, but I still can't help but wonder if the STYLE NO. 6 has any connection to the Los Angeles crates I mentioned that are stamped with the number six followed by a two-digit number?


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## SODABOB

I re-read the original thread again and was reminded that only the Los Angeles crates have the number 6 stamped on them. This prompted me to take another look around and I discovered that most (but not all) of the smaller Los Angeles crates also have the 6 on them, followed by a two-digit number. And even though I cannot prove or disprove whether or not the two-digit numbers are dates, the 6 appears to be a designation for Los Angeles only. At this juncture I do not think the 6 represents the month of June. So, if its not a month number, I wonder what the number 6 and Los Angeles have in common?


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## bottle-bud

Question: Was there ever a 3-2-2 pattern for the bubbles? Just fooling around inside on a nasty weather day and found this ad for Seven Up. My initial thought was a mistake in the advertising ad maybe?? maybe not?


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## SODABOB

bottle-bud

I can't read the entire article but do see "Gary, Indiana" at the bottom. I did a quick search and found this bottle that's currently on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-UP-ACL-S...ge-Indianapolis-Gary-Evansville-/202275544742

 Notice ...

1. It has Gary on the back along with Indianapolis and Evansville - all located in Indiana

2. The base is marked with "Duraglas" and has a 2. for 1942

3. Its a 2-2-3 


So I don't know what to make of it other than its one year after the Los Angeles bottles and five years earlier than the 1947 date on your article.   ???


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## SODABOB

Speaking of "Duraglas" why don't the 1941 3-1-3 bottles have it?  The general rule of thumb is that "Duraglas" (a glass hardening element) was introduced in 1940.


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## SODABOB

P.S.  /  Correction

I triple-checked and discovered that the San Bernardino and Bakersfield wood crates also have the number 6 stamped on them. So its not just exclusive to Los Angeles. But it does fit in with the 3-1-3 bubbles on the bottles and the crates. So it might be that the number 6 has some connection to the whole enchalada!  ???


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## SODABOB

Speaking of 1947, check out this ...


*Los Angeles ~ 23<(I)> 47 ~ Duraglas ~ 2-2-3 

*7up bottle currently on "Bonanza" 


https://www.bonanza.com/listings/Vintage-early-1940-s-7-Up-bottle-Los-Angeles/383517763?goog_pla=1&gpid=293946777986&keyword=&goog_pla=1&pos=1o2&ad_type=pla&gclid=CjwKCAiA5qTfBRAoEiwAwQy-6UZiDlWTToZnCgLMqS0mP3Nue9eZ4bIrG7EfzF5Ki9X0PDO-E5UWehoCKJQQAvD_BwE


This seems to reconfirm that Los Angeles reverted back to the 2-2-3 bottles at least by 1947. I'm still searching for 1938 thru 1940 Los Angeles bottles.


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## bottle-bud

The number 6 may refer to the box style. Illinois Glass had a catalogue showing different style boxes and there was a No. 6  
http://anyflip.com/qbni/hfbm


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## SODABOB

bottle-bud

Great find!

Illinois Glass merged with Owens Glass in 1929 to become Owens-Illinois. But its still a good clue. The thing is, we really don't know who made the 3-1-3 number 6 Los Angeles crates. Just because they got their bottles from Owens-Illinois doesn't necessarily mean they got their crates from them as well. Its even possible there was a surplus of Illinois Glass crates that were used after the 1929 merger.


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## SODABOB

P.S.

Another thing we don't know is if the locations were stamped on the crates by the bottler or the crate manufacture. Its possible they were blank when shipped and the bottler stamped the location on them.  ???


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## SODABOB

*In search of ...*

Blank / Unmarked / No Location wood soda bottle crates 

(But not sure exactly how to word it)


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## iggyworf

Still having comp probs but it is working right now. The #6 on the crates could signify 'California'


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## iggyworf

The other 3 mystery crates from RI, Mass & ND do not have any numbers on them that I can see either.


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## iggyworf

I looked at a lot of 7up crates and other crates from ebay to try and put together a possible link to the numbers thinking the #6 could be for Cal. and other numbers for other states,  but that didn't pan out. But I did notice that any of the southern Cal crates from 7up did have the #6. Even the shorter ones. I looked at other states but nothing correlated. So that theory might be shot down.


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## SODABOB

NEW CLUE(S) ... 

Sturdy- Bilt ~ Southern Box Inc ~ Jonesboro, Arkansas


Coca Cola ~ Los Angeles ~ 6-67



Pepsi Cola ~ No Location ~ 6-68




Regarding Owens-Illinois, I found this ~ No Location ~ Texas Punch brand ~ 3-55


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## SODABOB

The only glitch is, according to this newspaper article, the Sturdy Bilt company moved from Minneapolis, Minnesota and didn't relocate to Jonesboro, Arkansas until ...

*1955*

[ The Baxter Bulletin ~ Baxter, Arkansas ~ June 6, 1968 ]


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

However, there could still be a connection between Sturdy Bilt cases and the Los Angeles 7up crates marked with a 6 - except that the Los Angeles cases were built earlier in Minneapolis and not in Jonesboro.  ???


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## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

We need to double-check and see if any of the double-digit numbers on the Los Angeles cases are lower than 55


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## SODABOB

New Clue (Sort of) ...

When they were located in Minneapolis, Minnesota they went by the name ...

*Flour City Wooden Box Inc. *


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## SODABOB

I double-checked the original thread and the earliest Los Angeles (or any other) crate pictured is marked with  ...


*6-59*


But it doesn't mention anything about Sturdy Bilt or who else might have made it.  ???


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## SODABOB

More Clues or More Confusion?

Both of these crates are currently on eBay and both are described with "Sturdy Bilt" But neither one mentions a specific bottler or location


Clicquot Club- Sturdy Bilt - Flour City Wooden Box Inc Marked with what appears to be 2-65 

Note:  I'll stake my reputation on it that the Clicquot Club crate was not made in 1965!  (See attachments)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-antique-...h=item541c2feaf7:g:0z8AAOSwPhdVBJuM:rk:2:pf:0





Orange Crush - Sturdy Bilt - Jonesboro, Arkansas - Marked with 2-67


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vinta...h=item33f89626a4:g:Yt4AAOSwNexb266d:rk:1:pf:0










Orange Crush 2-67  ( 67 for 1967? - Could be?) )


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## SODABOB

Okay, here goes! But please bear with me because this might be a little confusing!

This article is from ...

[ The Minneapolis Star ~ May 23, 1963 ]

It states that Frank Blindman started all three of these companies, although the names were slightly different. Two of the dates are mentioned in the article, but one just says "early 1940s" - But what's weird is that none of them mention the words "Sturdy Bilt" - Although we have already seen that "Sturdy Bilt" was used in connection with the Southern Wooden Box Co. on the Jonesboro, Arkansas 2-67 Orange Crush crate that I posted earlier. Anyway, here's what I make of the locations and dates for the three companies ... 

1. 1913* ~ Flour City Wooden Box Inc. ~ Minneapolis, Minnesota

 *Based on the article being dated 1963 and that it says "marking his 50th year in business" - 1963 minus 50 equals 1913

2. Early 1940s ~ Waterloo, Iowa ? (Not sure) ? ( Relocation in Minneapolis ) ?  ( Pre-1951) ?

3. 1951 ~ Southern Wooden Box Co. ~ Jonesboro, Arkansas

Footnote:  But just how this might fit in with the various 7up crates from California, I haven't figured out yet. Maybe someone can find something I missed. HELP!


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

Suggestion ...

Now we need to take another, closer look at the Los Angeles and other California 7up crates and see if we can find any with one of the three names mentioned above on them. Or possibly just "Sturdy Bilt" which I'm confident is directly related to the three Blindman companies. (Maybe ? )


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## SODABOB

Gee - that didn't take long!  I found one! - But even though it was described as being dated 1969, it didn't say where they came up with the date. Although I suspect it was stamped somewhere inside. You can see part of the "Sturdy Bilt" in the back of the crate. But whether it has a 6-69 or some other reference for 1969, I dunno! No numbers are stamped on the end like the other Los Angeles 3-1-3 crates we've seen. 

However, there's no question that it has ...

1. Los Angeles

2. Sturdy Bilt

3. 3-1-3 bubble placement


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## SODABOB

Hopefully this will confirm that "Sturdy Bilt" and "Flour City Wooden Box Inc. - Minneapolis, Minnesota" are directly related and the same company. 


https://www.etsy.com/listing/110945394/sturdy-bilt-wooden-box-inc-printing


Notice it has "Trade Mark" on it. Now we need to know when it was Trademarked


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## SODABOB

I have found a ton of "Sturdy Built" soda bottle crates but all I can tell you at this juncture is that they definitely used single-digit numbers with a dash followed by a two-digit number. The example pictured here is on a Squirt crate and marked *6-64 *- But other than that, I don't know what the numbers represent. This is the only "Sturdy Bilt" crate I have found so far that has the number *6* - Hence, I don't think the number *6 *is specific to 7up, but it might represent California. Or something else all together.  ???

 


I still have a lot more "Sturdy Bilt" crates to look at, but here is a sampling of what I have seen so far and how they were marked. Most of them did not have a specific bottler or location on them. I don't think the first numbers are factory numbers because there are too many of them. Apparently they only had three factories; Minneapolis, Minnesota ( two different Minneapolis locations - but same city - they relocated once)  - Plus Waterloo, Iowa - And Jonesboro, Arkansas 


Clicquot Club = 2-65 
Pepsi Cola = 8-55   12-60
Orange Crush = 4-57  2-67 
Coca Cola = 2-64  12-58  9-64  1-69
Nesbitt's = 9-70


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## SODABOB

Hey, iggy/Rich

I hope you don't mind my bombardment of post, but you know me when I'm on the trail of something. Its way to early to confirm anything, but I'm leaning toward ... 

1. The 3-1-3 7up crates were made by "Sturdy Bilt"

2. The 6 represents "California" 
3. The two-digit numbers represent *?  *(Dates ? )


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## SODABOB

This is the last one for now - but its really cool because it gives us a start date ( I was only off by one year when I said 1913) Its from Galesburg, Illinois but doesn't have any numbers stamped on it.  I'm still a little confused when the Waterloo, Iowa factory started, other than the newspaper article leads me to believe it was pre-1951  ???

*Flour City Box Co.
Manufacturers Since 1912
Waterloo, Iowa
Sturdy Bilt Cases

* 







*For The Home
Galesburg, Illinois   


*


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## SODABOB

This newspaper article should confirm the start year for the Waterloo, Iowa box factory. Notice where it says "six months after" and that they cut the first timber for making boxes in January of 1932. I still haven't found anything definitive about the numbers stamped on the cases but hoping that information will surface eventually. 

[ The Courier ~ Waterloo, Iowa ~ December 31, 1933 ]


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## SODABOB

QUESTION

Now that we know when the Sturdy Bilt (Flour City Box) company was established ..

1. In Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1912
2. In Waterloo, Iowa in 1932-33 
3. In Jonesboro, Arkansas in 1951

If the second double-digit numbers are dates ...

Then why can't I find a Sturdy Bilt (Flour City Box) crate with a second number lower than 52?

If they were dates, there should be a ton of numbers lower than 52


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## SODABOB

Notice this Pepsi Cola grate, that was made in Waterloo, Iowa, has 1939 stamped on it. The stamp on the Coca Cola crate I just posted appears to be identical but does not have a date. It could be that some of the earliest crates were dated like this and some weren't. That might explain my difficulty in finding pre-51 numbers; because there were no numbers on some (most?) of them, and no reason for anyone to mention a number or date because they weren't stamped. So I'm going back to the drawing board and see if I can figure out exactly when they started stamping them with numbers on a consistent basis, with trying to figure out the mystery of the so called 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates as my primary goal. 

Footnote:  If 1941 was the key year for the Los Angeles and other southern California 3-1-3 bottles, and the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates are also from the same time period, then it seems to me that the Los Angeles crates would be stamped like this 1939 Pepsi Cola crate and not stamped with the variety of different numbers we have been seeing that start with a 6. And make no mistake, there are a plenty of Sturdy Bilt 7up crates out there because I have seen them during my searches. In other words; the mystery continues!


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## SODABOB

Here's a partial list of some of the numbers I have seen on *Sturdy Bilt 7up *crates ...

11-55
8-72
5-64
10-52
12-56
12-66
11-75
3-75
4-58
10-67
9-67
12-59

Some of these crates had locations on them and some didn't, which I will discuss later. But for now just suffice it to say that there doesn't appear to be any obvious rhyme or reason regarding the numbers that are consistent with either locations or dates. I did not include the 7up crates that start with a 6 in this list because those are scattered throughout this thread as well as the original thread and can be seen with a simple back-search. However, I will include the crates that start with a 6 in my final list.


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## SODABOB

"Pop" Quiz!

Did you notice in my list that none of the first numbers are higher than 12?  Hmm ... What does the number 12 bring to mind?


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## SODABOB

"Pop" Quiz No. 2

Did you notice in my list that none of the second numbers are higher than 75?  


[ The Star Tribune ~ Minneapolis, Minnesota ~ November 12, *1976 *]


Footnote:  I think where it says "73 years" is a typo and should be "63 years." Which would reflect a start-up year in Minnesota as 1913 and not 1903. However, as we now know, the actual start-up year was in 1912. But regardless of the one year discrepancy, this article should confirm the name change as occurring in 1976. Although I need to check and see if the name change included their factories in Waterloo, Iowa and Jonesboro, Arkansas.


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## SODABOB

And here we have a 7up Uncola crate marked with ... 

Sturdy Bilt
Made BY
Flour City
Wooden Box, Inc.
MPLS., MINN
2-76

Note:  7up introduced "The Uncola" in 1967

Is it possible this is one of the last 7up crates made in Minneapolis, Minnesota under the old name?


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## SODABOB

In case (pun intended) you're wondering, I openly admit that my latest post are pointing in the direction that the numbers indicate months and years. So what I'm going to do next is focus entirely on the Los Angeles and other southern California 7up crates with the 3-1-3 bubble placement and see what I come up (pun intended) with. In the meantime, here's an interesting article from ... 

[ The Baxter Bulletin ~ Mountain Home, Arkansas ~ June 6, 1968 ]

Notice the article is a re-print from the Jonesboro Sun

Also notice in the last snippet where it says ...

"It was not until after World War II that Flour City got into high level production of soft drink cases" 

Note: I will post another article later that talks about how Flour City Box devoted about 90+% of its production towards the war effort producing ammunition and other types of wood boxes during the years 1941 through 1945. They even had a government contract during those years.


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## SODABOB

Here's one of the WWII era articles from ...

[ The Courier ~ Waterloo, Iowa ~ June 28, 1942 ]


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## SODABOB

And then in 1943 a fire literally burned the Waterloo, Iowa plant to the ground!


[ The Courier ~ Waterloo, Iowa ~ February 17, 1943 ]









Following this I'm going to focus on the 3-1-3 California 7up crates and see if I can determine exactly who made them and when and where.


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## SODABOB

For starters, here's the link again to the original 2017 thread ... 

https://www.antique-bottles.net/sho...-7-bubble-variation!&highlight=bubble+pattern


Where the following can be found regarding the 3-1-3 California 7up crates ...

Page 1 ...
 Post #14 - Los Angeles = Marked 6-60
Post #17 - Bakersfield = Marked 1-59

Page 2 ...
Post #22 - San Bernardino = Marked 6-58
Post #22 - San Diego = Marked 8-65

Page 4 ...
Post #73 - Los Angeles = Marked 6-73

However, none of the above mention anything about "Flour City Box" or "Sturdy Bilt" - Which I intend to focus on this time around.


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## SODABOB

I just now found this and thought it was worth sharing. It might even put a cap on things as far as I'm concerned. The reason I say that is because ... 

1. Notice the 8 1952 on the side
2. Notice what the description says about the inside

If the bottler or Sturdy Bilt or whoever painted the side of the crate indicates that the 58 on the inside also represents 1952, then who am I to dispute that? In other words, I believe this crate was made in 1952 and that the second number inside also indicates 1952. Hence, I am strongly leaning toward the distinct possibility that all of the second numbers on Sturdy Bilt crates are indeed dates. Here's the link and description for you to take a look for yourselves and see what you think ... 

But first a question ...

Why would anyone mark the outside with 1952 if the inside mark (52) didn't also represent 1952? 



https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1952-vintage-wood-crate-box-rock-52478363



Description : Copy/Pasted

[FONT=&amp]It is green with yellow print. On each side is ROCK SPRING [FONT=&amp]BEVERAGES 24 SMALL 8 1952. JACOB RIES BOTTLING [/FONT][FONT=&amp]WORKS, INC. SHAKOPEE, MINNESOTA. U.S.A.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]On both ends is $1.00. In side is stamped in red STURDY BILT [/FONT][FONT=&amp]MADE BY FLOUR CITY WOODEN BOX, INC. MPLS., MINN. 8 - 52.



[/FONT]






[/FONT]


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## SODABOB

Hey, iggy/Rich

Because I consider my last post a possible game-changer, I'm going to suspend any further searches for the time being so I can digest the 52 = 1952 possibility. I acknowledge its not conclusive, but I also believe it to be pretty strong evidence in support of the second numbers being year of manufacturer indicators.


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## SODABOB

But before I take a break, here's a partial list of some of the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates I have already seen and how they were marked, with most of them being the large crates (LG) and one being a small crate (SM) ...

LG = 1-68
LG = 6-72
SM = 6-67
LG = 9-73
LG = 6-69
LG = 1-73
LG = 1-70
LG = 6-73
LG = 6-61

Notes:  

1. Not all of the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates start with the number 6

2. If the second numbers turn out to be the year of manufacturer, then not a single one of the Los Angeles 3-1-3 crates I've seen correlates with the 3-1-3 bottles. The lowest second number in my last list is 61. If its a year date, then its a solid 20 years after the 3-1-3 bottles were produced!  


*​?*


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## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Hey, iggy/Rich
> 
> I hope you don't mind my bombardment of post, but you know me when I'm on the trail of something. Its way to early to confirm anything, but I'm leaning toward ...
> 
> 1. The 3-1-3 7up crates were made by "Sturdy Bilt"
> 
> 2. The 6 represents "California"
> 3. The two-digit numbers represent *?  *(Dates ? )



No Bob, i don't mind at all. I just quickly read thru your posts and good work. My comp is down for the count, but I hope to have another one soon. I am on my girlfriends laptop right now. I tried to correlate the first number with states but came up blank. But found a LA crate with a different one and another state with a 6. I might not be back right away to provide some help but asap. 

Thanx for all the time and input. I will try to search for more 3-1-3 bottles.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks

We look forward to hearing from you just as soon as you resolve your comp problem. I have been through that myself (and still am to some degree with a weak wifi connection). 

The attached snippet is cropped from the newspaper article I posted in #59. Notice what it says about hundreds and hundreds of "drink cases" that bear the name of a city and that the "model" is checked before production. I'm not sure if they mean the cases were just tagged with the brand or bottler's name on it or if it means the box factory actually painted them. But because it says "hundreds and hundreds," I suspect the box factory not only constructed them to certain specifications, but also painted them as well. After all, how many different types of drink cases could there be? Surely not hundreds and hundreds. If fact, I can only think of a handful of different types. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is, if the factory had "models" they used, this leads me to suspect they might have used the same "model" year after year. Hence the possibility of a 1940s model still being used in the 1950s or even later. Maybe, just maybe the cases in question were "modeled" in the early 1940s and were still being used in the 1960s, with only slight changes such as the way they were stamped (Month and Year) ???

[ The Baxter Bulletin ~ Mountain Home, Arkansas ~ June 6, 1968 ]


----------



## SODABOB

This snippet is from the same article I just referred to - June 6, 1968

Notice what it says about the "busy season" being "December to September." That leaves out October and November; which would be represented by the numbers 10 and 11. But why the busy season included all but two months of the year, I don't know. Maybe, just maybe, the majority of the Los Angeles and other California soft drink crates were scheduled to be produced only during the month of June. Hence, why so many of the LA and other California crates that start with the number 6. I realize this is not conclusive, but I gotta wonder why none of my resent list of Los Angeles crates do not start with the numbers 10 or 11. So, with that said, I'm going to continue my search for Los Angeles crates and see if I can find any that start with the numbers 10 or 11. It could turn out to be a wild goose chase - but ya never know!


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

One thing seems certain ... If the second numbers indicate years, then any crate made at the Jonesboro, Arkansas factory would not be stamped with a second number lower than 55, because that's when the Jonesboro plant was established. I will keep that in mind during any additional searches.


----------



## SODABOB

Here's a little reminder of the three different start-up dates ...

Minneapolis, Minnesota = 1912

Waterloo, Iowa = 1932-33

Jonesboro, Arkansas = 1955


----------



## SODABOB

Brief Update ... 

(That might assist others who are conducting searches) 

Using only three search words; "Sturdy Bilt Jonesboro" I just tapped into 113 various beverage crates. What I found interesting is that 109 of them were the smaller, flat crates, and only 4 of them were the larger crates. Some of the small crates were 7up's but none of the large crates were 7up's. The reason I mention this is because it might be that the Jonesboro, Arkansas factory primarily produced the small crates and one of the other factories (Minneapolis or Waterloo) primarily produced the large crates. As I continue my search, I will keep this in mind and see if I notice a trend.


----------



## SODABOB

Talk about confusion, I just discovered something I hadn't noticed before. As it turns out, the small 7up crates from Los Angeles all have the 2-2-3 bubble placement. And not only that, but the numbers on the small crates are similar, and in some cases identical to the numbers on the large 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates. 

Here is a partial list of the numbers I have seen on the small 2-2-3 Los Angeles crates ...

Note:  The two crates with an asterisk* have the same numbers

Small Crates  2-2-3

6-72*
6-73
1-68
5-69

And here are some more of the numbers I've seen on the large 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates ... 

Large Crates  3-1-3

6-66
1-65
1-71
6-65
10-74
6-64
6-74
6-61
6-72*
6-53
6-67
1-72
6-70


Question: 

 Why do the small Los Angeles crates have 2-2-3 bubbles, but the large Los Angeles crates have 3-1-3 bubbles?


Here's an example of one of the small 2-2-3 Los Angeles crates. Its also the only 7up crate I have seen that starts with the number 12

Sturdy Bilt
Jonesboro, Arkansas
12-64


----------



## SODABOB

One picture is worth a thousand words!


----------



## SODABOB

Observations of interest ...

1. When I use the search words "7up Crate" it pulls up approximately 1,300 matches

2. When I use the search words "Los Angeles 7up Crate" it pulls up approximately 100 matches. About 75% of which are the large crates, and about 25% of which are the small crates

3. Of the approximately 100 Los Angeles matches, only a handful of them describe who manufactured the crate 

4. Of the handful who describe the manufacturer, its generally "Sturdy Bilt" and/or some variation of "Flour City Box" 

5. No matter how I word it, the majority of the matches don't say anything about the numbers stamped on the inside or the outside of the crate

6. However, in most instances the numbers are clearly evident on the images of the crates

7. The various list of numbers I have compiled are generally due to my having seen the numbers from the images, and not due to the numbers being described. In other words, most posters/sellers don't address the numbers whatsoever

8. Based on my having looked at so many of the crates, and reading the posters/sellers descriptions, it seems obvious to me that the majority of the crates, especially the large 3-1-3 crates from Los Angeles, *are not stamped with a manufactures mark
*
9. Even though the majority of the 3-1-3 crates from Los Angeles are not stamped with a makers mark, those same crates do have numbers stamped on the outside of the crates, most of which that start with the number 6

10. The bottom line in my opinion (based on selected evidence) is as follows ...  

*
Inconclusive Conclusion ... 

*1. The first numbers on the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates represent *months of the year

*2. The second numbers on the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates represent *the year of manufacturer

*3. As much as I would like to say I know the answer, I cannot find any evidence whatsoever to explain why the Los Angeles crates have the 3-1-3 bubbles - nor why the 1941 Los Angeles bottles have the 3-1-3 bubbles

4. I do not believe at this juncture that the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates have any direct connection with the 1941 Los Angeles 7up bottles that have the 3-1-3 bubbles. I say this primarily because I believe the majority of the Los Angeles 3-1-3 crates were manufactured many years after the Los Angeles 3-1-3 bottles were produced 

Footnote: 

 I will gladly stand corrected if/when evidence is presented to refute my observations and/or personal opinions

Signed;

*Sodabob*


----------



## SODABOB

( Which leads to )

*In Search of ...

*A Los Angeles, California 7up crate (large and/or small) that can *positively* be identified as having been manufactured during the 1930s or 1940s*

*I have no doubt whatsoever they used wood crates during that time period, but finding one that can be positively dated is the challenge


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Because the Los Angeles 7up Company might have used generic wood crates during the 1940s that do not have "Los Angeles" stamped on them, I will settle for (and intend to search for) *​any* 7up crate from anywhere that can be positively dated from the 1930s or 1940s


----------



## SODABOB

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water, here I go again with a list of various manufactures who produced beverage crates. Notice that Chattanooga Box actually stamped full dates (years) on the inside of their crates.  I haven't even begun to fully research the specifics regarding each of these particular companies, and am posting them now for a future reference. Other than the companies we are already familiar with, I have no idea yet if the other companies manufactured 7up crates. Nor do I know yet when these box companies began and stopped operation. However, based on what I have seen, most if not all of them were in operation during the 1940s

Note: Just copy/paste the primary name into your search browser/engine and it should pull up various matches. If necessary, leave out the '&' and use 'and' instead


1. Sturdy Bilt / Flour City Box

2. Durabilt / Owens-Illinois

3.Chattanooga Box & Lumber Company / Tennessee / Mostly Coca Cola crates / Used full dates 

4. Anchor Box & Lumber Company / Pittsburgh, Pa.

5. McWilliams & Schulte Box & Lumber Co. / Cincinnati, Ohio

6. Duncan Box & Lumber Company / Huntington, West Virginia 

7. Providence Box & Lumber Company / Providence, Rhode Island

8. New Durham Box & Lumber Company / New Durham, New Jersey

9. Hassell Lumber Company / Savannah, Tennessee


----------



## SODABOB

This is the closest thing I have found so far that might qualify as a 1930s 7up crate.  I say this because...

1. It has the "For The Stomach's Sake" slogan

2. It has 8 bubbles

3. It has the number '37 on it that might represent 1937

4. It has dovetailed corners 









Footnote:

But it doesn't appear to look anything like the 3-1-3 Los Angeles crates that we originally thought might be from the late 1930s or early 1940s ... ???


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

Even though not everyone will agree with my inclusive conclusions regarding the wood 7up crates, I feel I have exhausted that subject and plan to shift gears and continue searching for more evidence regarding the 3-1-3 bottles themselves. To start with, I'd like to present this ... 

Amber 7up Bottle ~ Houston, Texas ~ Owens-Illinois ~ 9 <(I)> 1. ~ Dot ~ Duraglas ~ 8 Bubble ~ 1941

Observation:  

I can't help but wonder why this 1941 7up bottle has Duraglas on the base but your 1941 Los Angeles 3-1-3 7up bottle does not have Duraglas on the base?  As we know, Duraglas was a glass hardening element introduced by Owens-Illinois in 1940.


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

In answer to my own question about "Duraglas," notice that this "Bali" soda bottle from Los Angeles was also made by Owens-Illinois in 1941 but does not have "Duraglas" on it. Also notice that it came from Plant #20, whereas yours was produced at Plant #23. Depending on which Owens-Illinois chart you reference, Plant #23 is usually shown as being located in Los Angeles, California and Plant #20 as being located in Oakland, California. It could be that none of the Owens-Illinois California plants had adopted the use of "Duraglas" at that time and possibly started using it sometime after 1941. Maybe only Plant #9 (Streator, Illinois) like on the amber 7up bottle, was using "Duraglas" in 1941. Anyway, this might provide a clue or two while searching for more of the 3-1-3 7up bottles. Lets make a note of the plant numbers as we search and see what develops.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I'm going to conduct a search that focuses entirely on 1941 Owens-Illinois bottles and see if I can detect a trend as to which plants did and did not use Duraglas at the time. Of course this will result in more list that I know everyone just loves. (Lol)


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich 

I just stumbled onto something that I believe was briefly discussed in the original thread but was never followed up on. During today's search I noticed that a lot of the 1941 Owens-Illinois 7up bottles still had 8 bubbles on the label. I found examples of the 1941 8 bubble bottles from Kentucky, Mississippi, Texas, and South Dakota. The South Dakota and Texas bottles both had Duraglas on the base, but I'm not sure about the other two. Nor am I sure which Plants they were produced at. But the thing is, as hinted at in the original thread, is that the 3-1-3 bottles might have been an early, and possibly even the very first of the early bottles to switch from 8 bubble labels to 7 bubble labels. If you have anything more specific related to this, please share it with us. In the meantime I will continue my various searches and see what I come 7-Up with (pun intended)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I forgot to mention that the 1941 South Dakota, Mississippi, and Kentucky 8 bubble bottles have ACL neck logos, but the 1941 Texas 8 bubble bottle has an embossed neck logo. The Texas bottle is the one I posted a picture of yesterday. If I remember correctly, I believe they discontinued the embossed necks at about the same time they switched to 7 bubbles.


----------



## SODABOB

Okay, here's the deal ...

I'm starting to see what appears to be an obvious trend that might point the finger directly at ... 
*
The Los Angeles, California Owens-Illinois Plant #23

*Its too soon to draw any conclusions yet, but the culprit behind the 3-1-3 bottles could very well be the Los Angeles plant!


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, iggy/Rich

What year(s) were the embossed neck logos typically supposed to have been discontinued? According to the description associated with this particular bottle (some of which are obvious from the pic) it apparently is ...

1. From Spokane, Washington

2. Produced at the LA Plant #23

3. Dated 1942

4. 7 bubble 2-3-2

5. Embossed neck logo


----------



## SODABOB

I just remembered this (Bill Lockhart) chart from the original thread and thought I'd re-post it here. It indicates that some of the embossed neck 7 bubble bottles were apparently produced as late as 1944. Anyway, it might come in handy for a future reference ...


----------



## SODABOB

In case there was any doubt, this should confirm the existence of a 1944 7up bottle with an embossed neck and 7 bubble label. Its from Salt Lake City, Utah. Notice the Owens-Illinois plant number. Yep, its a 23 for Los Angeles


----------



## SODABOB

Next Question ...

Why did the Owens-Illinois Los Angeles plant produce an ACL neck logo on iggy's 1941 Los Angeles bottle but produced an embossed neck logo on the 1944 Salt Lake City bottle?


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, iggy/Rich

Another question ...

How many of the Los Angeles 3-1-3 bottles are you aware of? The reason I ask is because the only example(s) I'm are aware of are the one(s) you own. I can't find a picture or reference to another one anywhere. You'd think if they were mass produced that other examples could be found. But if they weren't mass produced, that in itself could be a major clue. In other words, if only a handful of them were ever produced it could very well have been some type of fluke. ???


----------



## SODABOB

I borrowed these pics from page one and cropped them for a closer look. I inverted the bottom one because it was upside down in iggy's original pic. I thought it might help to see them again for any possible clues. iggy said both bottles are from Los Angeles and both are 6 1/2 ounce. The main differences I see are ...

1. The mold numbers ... 2 on the top bottle and 3 on the bottom bottle

2. The top bottle doesn't have the slots* but the bottom bottle does. 

*I pretty sure those slots were intended to secure the bottle while the ACL was being applied.  

Speaking of 6 1/2 ounces, maybe, just maybe there is a direct connection between the 3-1-3 bubbles and 6 1/2 ounces. In other words, maybe they intentionally applied the 3-1-3 bubbles on certain bottles that they knew were only 6 1/2 ounces so they could be easily recognized later and possibly culled later. Remember how tricky it is to tell the difference with the naked eye between a 7 ounce bottle and a 6 1/2 ounce bottle? Well, it probably wasn't any easier for the factory workers and bottlers to tell the difference either. Maybe someone at the factory messed up and somehow produced 6 1/2 ounce bottles instead of 7 ounce bottles, but because they didn't want to dispose of the entire lot they just applied a different ACL to them. Wow! That's a lot of "maybes" aint it?


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

Please forgive me for momentarily going back to the wood crates, but something is fishy somewhere. I just tapped into my favorite image site and used the search words ...

"Wood 7up Crate" 

But that's it, no Los Angeles or any other wording. As a result it pulled up approximately 12,000 matches. I haven't even gone through half of the listings yet, but of those I did open about 90% of the *large crates* are from Los Angeles. I didn't pay any attention to the smaller, flat crates because they are not as easy to recognize as the large crates. The Los Angeles crates stick out like a sore thumb. Some of the Los Angeles crates didn't even have the location in the title, but, like I said, they are easy to spot. Anyway, the fishy part is that there are just way, way too many of the Los Angeles crates to justify every one of them as actually having been used by the Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Company. And, yes, every one of them has the 3-1-3 bubbles as well as an assortment of different numbers. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I'm starting to suspect the large Los Angeles crates were constructed for some purpose other than to hold soda bottles. Like maybe some type of promotion or possibly to be used for some type of home decor purpose. I just now stumbled onto this and can't explain it further at the moment, but I definitely suspect there is something fishy going on and that there is more to this than meets the eye. Just take a look on eBay on any given day and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## SODABOB

Call me crazy and obsessed, but I just gotta share this ... 

I'm seeing tid-bits of information regarding the large 7up crates being used to store LP record albums. One reference hinted at a promotion between the Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Company and record stores. I can't confirm anything yet, but the dates on the crates jive with the time period when LP record albums were common. I might be on a wild goose chase with this, but you just never know where the rabbit will pop up next. (pun intended)


----------



## SODABOB

The Los Angeles Times ~ August 27, 1977


----------



## SODABOB

I've only had time for a brief search into this, and so far have not been able to find a picture of a Large 7up crate. So I will settle for this one for the time being. But I can assure you there are literally hundreds of ads like this between 1960 and 1990. And not only in California newspapers, but nationwide as well. Whether this explains the unusually high amount of Los Angeles 7up crates seen on eBay and elsewhere, I can't say for certain, but I do feel it is worth an honorable mention. 


[ The Los Angeles Times  ~  June 12, 1983 ]


----------



## SODABOB

Currently on eBay. Compare to Pepsi Cola crate in 1983 newspaper ad ...


https://www.ebay.com/itm/PEPSI-COLA...=item2f23ed9bbf:g:joUAAOSwCMVbvr7q:rk:58:pf:0


----------



## SODABOB

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?  I'm thinking that some (all?) of the Large Los Angeles 7up crates we've been seeing might not be original at all - but possibly reproductions developed for the collector / decor market. After Thanksgiving I will delve into this further. 

Speaking of Thanksgiving ...

*​Have a Great one !*


----------



## SODABOB

But before I pack a bag and head out of town, I'd like to share this first. As you know, I'm of the opinion that the numbers are dates. As such, I believe this particular example was produced in May of 1939. Its only the end panel, but notice the dovetailed corners and 8 bubbles. Based on what I've been seeing, late 1930s and early 1940s 7up crates should look more like this one than they do the 3-1-3 examples we have seen so many of.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Hey, iggy/Rich
> 
> Another question ...
> 
> How many of the Los Angeles 3-1-3 bottles are you aware of? The reason I ask is because the only example(s) I'm are aware of are the one(s) you own. I can't find a picture or reference to another one anywhere. You'd think if they were mass produced that other examples could be found. But if they weren't mass produced, that in itself could be a major clue. In other words, if only a handful of them were ever produced it could very well have been some type of fluke. ???



Bob, brief moment with a comp. Question? Why would Bakersfield bottling plant make this large sign for their building if the bottles were a fluke? So their must be more bottles out there. I only know of my 2 so far.




Remember these? But no bottles from that plant,,,,,Yet!


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> iggy/Rich
> 
> Please forgive me for momentarily going back to the wood crates, but something is fishy somewhere. I just tapped into my favorite image site and used the search words ...
> 
> "Wood 7up Crate"
> 
> But that's it, no Los Angeles or any other wording. As a result it pulled up approximately 12,000 matches. I haven't even gone through half of the listings yet, but of those I did open about 90% of the *large crates* are from Los Angeles. I didn't pay any attention to the smaller, flat crates because they are not as easy to recognize as the large crates. The Los Angeles crates stick out like a sore thumb. Some of the Los Angeles crates didn't even have the location in the title, but, like I said, they are easy to spot. Anyway, the fishy part is that there are just way, way too many of the Los Angeles crates to justify every one of them as actually having been used by the Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Company. And, yes, every one of them has the 3-1-3 bubbles as well as an assortment of different numbers. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I'm starting to suspect the large Los Angeles crates were constructed for some purpose other than to hold soda bottles. Like maybe some type of promotion or possibly to be used for some type of home decor purpose. I just now stumbled onto this and can't explain it further at the moment, but I definitely suspect there is something fishy going on and that there is more to this than meets the eye. Just take a look on eBay on any given day and you'll see what I mean.



I have also noticed some of them are 'extremely' in great condition.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Hey, iggy/Rich
> 
> What year(s) were the embossed neck logos typically supposed to have been discontinued? According to the description associated with this particular bottle (some of which are obvious from the pic) it apparently is ...
> 
> 1. From Spokane, Washington
> 
> 2. Produced at the LA Plant #23
> 
> 3. Dated 1942
> 
> 4. 7 bubble 2-3-2
> 
> 5. Embossed neck logo
> 
> 
> View attachment 185682



Yes I have seen them go to 1944.


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

I agree there are still a lot of unanswered questions, which I am trying to find answers to. But for now, a few reminders ...

1. The ACL labels were applied at the Owens-Illinois plant and not by the bottler

2. The new Bakersfield plant officially opened on June 13, 1939 
(Which was two years prior to the known 1941 3-1-3 bottles) 

3. Prior to 1939 , their "bottled goods came from another point" 
 (From Los Angeles or San Bernadino to a Bakersfield warehouse ?)

4. After the Bakersfield plant opened in 1939 they obviously started bottling their own goods

Questions:  

If the known 3-1-3 bottles are dated 1941 ...

1. I wonder if there are any 1939 through 1940 Bakersfield bottles, and what they look like? (Bubble placement ?)

2. I wonder which came first; The 1939 3-1-3 Bakersfield sign (and other 3-1-3 items) or the 3-1-3 bottles? 

Notice what I unlined in this article from ...

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ April 15, 1939 ]


View attachment 185699


And here's the rest of the story two months later about the formal opening in a two-page spread from ...

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ June 13, 1939 ]

(Save & Zoom+)


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

It might shed some light on things if we can find any 1939 and 1940 bottles from Los Angeles and Bakersfield and see what they look like.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

This bottle was described as being embossed on the base with "Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Co." and dated 1937. I don't have time right now, but eventually I'll look for others like it and hopefully find one with a pic of the base. But at the present I have no reason to doubt the description. Notice it has 8 bubbles and an embossed neck. But whether the 1938 through 1940 Los Angeles bottles are like this one, I don't know yet.  


Especially notice that its marked 6 1/2 Ounces


----------



## SODABOB

I'm at my daughter's and she's only allowing me 15 minutes on her Laptop so I better make this fast. I found it before I left home but didn't have time to post it. All I can say is ...
*
You just never know where the Turkey will pop up next*

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ December 2, 1939 ]


----------



## SODABOB

*
"Gobble-Gobble"

*


----------



## SODABOB

*
Happy Thanksgiving 


*


*
*


----------



## SODABOB

The Bakersfield, California Phone number 7313 did not exist prior to 1939. If first appears in 1939 used by the 7up Bottling Company of Bakersfield. They had the same phone number until 1942 when it was changed to 7-7921


----------



## SODABOB

The Bakersfield 7up Bottling Co. phone number is still 7921 ...

Address: 230 E 18th St, Bakersfield, CA 93305

Phone: (661) 323-7921


----------



## hemihampton

Is the phone # just a coincedence? or the reason it's the # of Bubbles on the Bottle? LEON.


P.S. Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## SODABOB

hemihampton said:


> Is the phone # just a coincedence? or the reason it's the # of Bubbles on the Bottle? LEON.
> 
> 
> P.S. Happy Thanksgiving.



Leon

Happy Thanksgiving

Personally, I think the phone number and the sign were intentional. Especially considering the phone number did not even exist in Bakersfield prior to the 7up Company being assigned (requesting ?) it. As for the 3-1-3 bottles, who knows? The only early Bakersfield bottle is the one re-posted here. And even though we don't know the bubble placement or when it was produced, we do know that it has an embossed neck logo. 


Later,

Bob


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I wonder which came first?

1. The Turkey or the Turkey egg?

2. The 7313 phone number or the 3-1-3 sign?  

Yep! After Thanksgiving I'm going to try and find the answer to both questions ...  :flag:


----------



## SODABOB

I'm still working on finding the answer to question NO. 2 from my last post, but the answer to question NO. 1 is ...

*1. Scrambled eggs

*The reason I say this is because that's what it does to my brain when I think about it.  

As far as the answer to question No. 2 goes, that's a bit more complicated. In order to make sense of what follows, the first thing I need to do is post this timeline as to when each of the following 7up bottling plants were first established. Please make a note of the dates because they will factor in as I continue, with emphasis on "bottling plants" and not distribution warehouses or distribution centers ... 

Los Angeles = Established in 1936
San Bernardino = Established  in 1937
Bakersfield = Established in 1939


----------



## SODABOB

Next up are three different 7up ads from 1936. What's especially interesting about these three ads is ...

1. All three were published on the same exact day (December 29, 1936)

2. All three ads are from three different newspapers [See titles] 

3. All three ads list 6 1/2 Ounce bottles

4. Two of the ads list 12 Ounce bottles

Note: I think we all agree there were no *12 Ounce *ACL 7up bottles in 1936. Hence, I have to believe the references to 12 Ounce bottles in two of the ads were for paper label bottles and not ACLs. As for the 6 1/2 Ounce bottles listed in the ads, I don't know for certain if they were paper label bottles or ACL bottles, but suspect they had paper labels. 

Special Note: Now you know the reason I started with the timeline in my last post - which was to point out that the San Bernardino and Bakersfield 7up bottling plants had not been established yet when these ads were published. There is no question they were being sold in San Bernardino and Bakersfield in 1936, but they no doubt came from distribution warehouses that were likely supplied by the 7up plant in Los Angeles.  

[ The Los Angeles Times ~ December 29, 1936 ]






[ The San Bernardino Sun ~ December 29, 1936 ] 




[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ December 29, 1936 ] 





Footnote:  Because all three ads were published on the same exact day, that suggest coordination of some type, which I suspect was a directive from the Los Angeles plant and not a coincidence.


----------



## SODABOB

And here is the only paper label 7up bottle I have found so far that is described as being from Los Angeles ... 

Copy/Pasted description ~ ( But no mention of a date or date code )

"[FONT=&amp]This is probably the oldest and rarest 7up bottle you will find. It is 1pint 13oz. It is embossed on front and back u7p it is bottled by seven up bottling company Los Angeles which is all embossed on the bottom."

[/FONT]


Notice the 2-2-3 bubble placement in this closeup


----------



## SODABOB

This is off-topic but I don't know where else to post it. I just got a PM from a new member who goes by the name *o**b2se*. I tried to send a reply but it said the new member was not set up to receive PMs. So the following message is to that member in case they happen to tap into this particular thread ... 

ob2se

If you see this, please go into your personal settings and opt to receive PMs. And then send me another PM and I will send you a reply. 

Thanks

Sodabob


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> This is off-topic but I don't know where else to post it. I just got a PM from a new member who goes by the name *o**b2se*. I tried to send a reply but it said the new member was not set up to receive PMs. So the following message is to that member in case they happen to tap into this particular thread ...
> 
> ob2se
> 
> If you see this, please go into your personal settings and opt to receive PMs. And then send me another PM and I will send you a reply.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sodabob




I was able to figure out the message from ob2se originated from "What Is It ` After 1900" so I posted a message on that thread asking him to check his personal settings.


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## SODABOB

PS

I finally contacted ob2se and suggested he start a new thread in the soda bottle category. So watch for a new thread with "American Club Beverages" in the title


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## hemihampton

Bob, Both of my Michigan Paper Label 7 up's Quart & 7 oz. have the 2-2-3 bubbles. But I guess thats not so unusual. LEON.


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## SODABOB

Leon

Yeah, its crazy that 7up has so many different labels. Some of the paper labels have 8 bubbles and some have 7 bubbles. Its the same with the ACLs. Instead of 7up they should have called it "Mixed up" 

The time just flew by today and I will get back on track tomorrow. Maybe its true what they say about Turkey making you sleepy - all I have felt like doing today is taking one long nap


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## SODABOB

But then again, maybe its not Turkey that makes me sleepy. Maybe it was Mimosa's in the morning, Rum & Coke in the afternoon, and wine with dinner. Oh well, tomorrow's another day - without any of the above being a part of it


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## Canadacan

I always wondered about the 3-2 bubble on this crown.


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## SODABOB

*7up Bottling ~ Bakersfield, Ca. ~ 3-1-3 Sign vs 7313 Phone Number ~ Timeline*


I have compiled numerous documents from newspaper articles and city directories to support the following timeline, and will post those documents just as soon as I properly organize them. But for now I just wanted to record the timeline while its fresh in my mind. In the event I make any unintentional errors, I will edit them later. As my heading indicates, my primary focus is an attempt to determine if there was a direct connection between the 3-1-3 7up sign and the 7313 phone number, or if it was just coincidental. The timeline is set up with the Newspaper records first, followed by the City Directory records.

*​Bakersfield Newspaper Archives ...*

December 24, 1938 = Permit filed by D. K. Washburn (7up President) to pour concrete slab at 230 E. Eighteenth St.

April 15, 1939 = Article stating that new 7up bottling plant is almost completed

May 17, 1939 = D.K. Washburn announces completion of bottling plant

May 18, 1939 = Earliest date when 7313 phone number appears in Bakersfield newspapers

June 14, 1939 = Formal opening of bottling plant

Footnote: Apparently it took about five months to construct the bottling plant 


*Bakersfield City Directories ...*

1938 = No listing for Seven Up or 7313 phone number 

1939 = Directory stamped with February 27, 1939

1939 = Listing for Seven Up Bottling ~ 2814 Chester 
(I need to research this address further. Its also listed as the residence of a Mr. & Mrs. George C. Cook) ?
(Maybe Mr. Cook had something to do with a 7up distribution warehouse) ?? 
(I don't know why its listed as "Bottling") ???
(See Post #126)



1940 = Directory stamped with March 11, 1940

1940 = Listing for Seven Up Bottling - 7313 phone number - 230 East Eighteenth St. address 

Footnotes: Its hard to say exactly when the various directories were published and released to the public, but the dates stamped in them provide us with clues. Although this information is inconclusive as to which came first, the 3-1-3 sign or the 7313 phone number, I suspect the 3-1-3 sign was ordered sometime in advance to allow time for it to be put together and installed. The earliest picture of the sign I have been able to find is in the April 15, 1939 newspaper article. But whether they had the 7313 phone number at that same time, I cannot say for certain but suspect they probably did due to the fact that the plant was completed at that time. If I were to speculate as to which came first, all I can say at this juncture is to ...
*

"Stay Tuned"


*


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## SODABOB

Next Question ...

How long would it take to design, manufacture, and install the 3-1-3 Bakersfield 7up sign?

This is the earliest picture of the almost completed building and sign I can find ...

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ April 15, 1939 ]


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## SODABOB

Here's the bottom portion of the date-stamped pages from the 1939 and 1940 Bakersfield Directories. I don't know what the stamped dates are for. But because both directories have them, I guess they were important to someone. They also have the same handwritten initials ...


View attachment 185775


View attachment 185776


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## SODABOB

Here's that listing from the 1939 Bakersfield Directory that has me confused. There is no listing for it in 1938 or earlier. Just 1939. Notice the address; 2814 Chester. ???

View attachment 185777


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## SODABOB

Ah, ha, I bet this explains the 1939 Directory listing for the 2814 Chester address

1. Two years ago (1937)

2. Distribution point

3. Two pieces of equipment

I wonder what the two pieces of equipment were?


[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ June 13, 1939 ] 

(From the two page article I posted earlier)


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## SODABOB

To avoid going down a rabbit hole any farther than I already am, I'm hoping this will clear up the Chester address mystery. Besides, I want to get back to the 3-1-3 Sign vs the 7313 Phone number question. The first attachment is to remind everyone that even though D. K. Washburn was the President of the 7up Bottling Co. in Bakersfield, it was A. J. Crocker who was the Manager. 

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ June 13, 1939 ]

(Also from the two page article I posted earlier)

 



Next up we have a 1940 Bakersfield U.S. Census record for Arlo Crocker

Notice ...

1. 'Chester So.'  on the left side

2. The 'R' stands for 'Rented'

3. Occupation = 'Manager Beverage Co.'  on the far right

What this tells me is that A. J. Crocker probably had something to do with the "distribution point" mentioned in my last post. Either that or he rented the Chester property after D. K. Washburn moved out and relocated somewhere else. But I'm leaning more toward the possibility that Crocker had something to do with the "distribution point" (warehouse / center)




Cropped from above


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## iggyworf

I have located a photo of a store with a advert with the 3-1-3 sign in the window. I messaged the person to ask wether they know when, where and what store it is. I hope to here from them soon.



to the right and look behind the man, a partial look at a sign with 3 bubbles on the left of it.


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## SODABOB

Rich

Great find!  It will be interesting to know where the picture was taken and when. I agree it looks like a 3-1-3, especially on the tin sign. I took a quick look for another sign like it but gave up because there are hundreds of them. However, of the hundred or so that I did look at, all of them had the 2-2-3 bubble placement.

I'm not sure how these cropped/enhanced images will look until I post them, but they might help to see the bubbles a little better ...


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## SODABOB

Next up is this newspaper snippet (Classified section) regarding the permit to pour a concrete slab ...

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ December 24, 1938 ]


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## SODABOB

Now I get to do a little speculating - so bear with me because I'm making this up as I go ...

1. I have to assume when the permit was filed they already had blueprints drawn up. How else would they know how large the slab would be? 

2. If they had blueprints of the floor plan, they no doubt knew where the offices, bottling area, warehouse, etc. would be located. Not to mention where the underground utilities such as water lines, drains, etc. would be located. As for the electric and phone connections, that probably came later and were above ground and inside the walls. 

3. If they had blueprints of the floor plan, those plans no doubt included the 'tower' part of the building where the 3-1-3 neon sign would be installed. 

4. If they knew where the tower and sign were located, they no doubt knew how large of a sign they needed to sit on top of the tower. 

5. Which leads me to believe they already knew what size and type of sign they needed/wanted when the concrete slab permit was filed on December 24, 1938. 

6. What we don't know is how long it took to design and manufacture the sign - nor if that took place in 1938 or just prior to the time when the building was partially completed in April of 1939. The April 15, 1939 picture I posted earlier shows the sign already installed. 

7. A far as how long it took to manufacture the sign goes, the one thing that jumps out at me most is that it was an "electric neon" sign and it probably took a little time and effort to construct it. 

8. Regarding whose decision it was to put the 3-1-3 bubbles on the sign, my best guess is that D.K. Washburn (President) likely had the final say in all construction matters regardless of who might have been advising him. 

9. Hence, the question as to which came first, the 3-1-3 sign or the 7313 phone number, my best guess is to say ...


*"Stay Tuned"  

*


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

I forgot one ...


10.  As to which came first, the 3-1-3 sign, the 7313 phone number, or the 3-1-3 bottles, I'd have to say at this juncture that the sign and phone number came before the bottles. I say this because the only confirmed date we have for the 3-1-3 bottles is 1941, whereas the sign and phone number are confirmed as existing in 1939.


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## SODABOB

In Search of ...

Information about F. A. Greenough - the contractor who built the new Bakersfield 7up bottling plant ...


[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ May 17, 1939 ]


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## SODABOB

Forget F. A. Greenough the contractor and F. W. DeFoy the architect, I wanna know more about these guys ...

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ June 13, 1939 ]


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## SODABOB

Here's the page from the 1939 Bakersfield Directory where the 7313 phone number would have appeared if it had been active at the time. This is the same directory that has the date stamp Feb 27, 1939 that I posted earlier. Notice that the numbers 7312 and 7313 are both missing. What I find weird about the directory itself is that the phone numbers are listed numerically instead of the names being listed alphabetically. In other words, you would have to know the number first in order to find who it belonged to. The alphabetical listing of names in another section doesn't show any phone numbers, only addresses. Crazy!


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## iggyworf

Great work Bob! I have sporadic working comp still. The owner of the photo messaged me back but with no other info on it. I also have found another photo with the 3-1-3 pattern in it but no other info on that one either.
I also wanted to search out the owner of the plant, but limited comp time.


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## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks

I'm still working on the question ...
*
Which came first - the 3-1-3 Sign or the 7313 Phone Number?*

Even though I have not found anything that's 100% conclusive yet, I'm hoping the following will shed some light on the subject. I'm also hoping I post the following information and snippets in their proper order so that its easy to understand and not confusing. This stuff gets a little tricky at times. It will likely take me several post to complete my observations, so please bear with me until I say something like "this concludes" ...

Important Note: All of the following are from the *1939 Bakersfield Directory*

For starters, I want to re-post this image that shows the Feb 27, 1939 Date Stamp. Regardless when the Directory was officially compiled and published, the Feb 27, 1939 Date Stamp suggest it was probably in full circulation at that time. I have researched Directories like this before and have discovered that most of the listings are carried over from the previous year, with new listings added as needed. In other words, it is safe to assume that a Directory published and issued in early 1939 was likely compiled sometime in late 1938. One of the first pages in the 1939 Bakersfield Directory states that a door-to-door survey was conducted to check with the resident or business to determine if the address and/or phone number were the same as the previous year or whether any changes had been made. On the same page it states that R. L. Polk & Company could not be held responsible if the information they received from a resident or business was not accurate. 

Anyway, here goes ...

 


(To be continued)


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## SODABOB

Important Note: 

My primary focus is with the 230 East Eighteen address where the new Bakersfield 7up bottling plant was built and where the 3-1-3 sign was installed - as well as the 7313 phone number that was first published in the Bakersfield Californian newspaper on April 15, 1939.  

This next snippet is found on Page 250 of the 1939 Bakersfield Directory showing 18th East at the top. Notice there is no listing for 230 East Eighteenth. I added the green *230* to indicate where the address should have been. Also notice that the numbers jump from 229 to 308. I believe that part of town might have been vacant lots at the time. The little "Bell Symbols" indicate if a particular address had a phone. 


 


(To be continued)


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## SODABOB

Next up is the section where the Phone Numbers are listed and who they belonged to. I added the green numbers where the 7313 Phone Number should have been if it was active at the time. Especially notice the names *Behan Beauty Art Studio *and *Yount, Elis, Mrs. *as I will be discussing them next. 




(To be continued)


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## SODABOB

Initially I thought that certain phone numbers were specific to certain parts of town, such as those starting with 71?? possibly all being on the same street. But after taking a closer look I realized that wasn't the case. 

Notice in this first snippet that the Behan Beauty Art Studio was located at 1906 19th and that Elizabeth Behan's residence was located at 1720 16th. Also notice that the Beauty store phone number was 7311 as indicated in my last post. 




(To be continued)


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## SODABOB

And here's the listing for Yount Mrs Eliz Nurse. Notice her address is h1919 Truxtun av. The ''h' stands for residence.


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## SODABOB

This partial summary and accompanying question conclude my observations for the time being ...

Hopefully my most recent post will confirm that 1939 Bakersfield phone numbers were random and not specifically assigned to a business or resident based on their street address. Hence, I believe the Bakersfield Seven Up Bottling Company phone number 7313 was not assigned based on the street address but for some other reason. 

Next Question:

I wonder if the 7313 phone number was 'assigned' to the 7up Bottling Company or did they *request *it?


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

I forgot to include this in my partial summary ...

Based on selected evidence (permits, phone numbers, addresses, etc) I am currently leaning toward the possibility that the 3-1-3 7up sign was designed and manufactured *before *the 7313 phone number was assigned/requested. But whether I can prove this possibility is a horse of a different color, not to mention finding proof as to whether the phone number was assigned or requested. In other words ...

*The research continues ~ Please stay tuned ...

*


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## SODABOB

This May 18, 1939 *ad* is kinda significant because its the earliest Bakersfield 7up *ad *that ... 

1. Depicts the image of a bottle

2. Shows the 230 East Eighteenth address

3. Shows the 7313 phone number

Note:  Even though the bottle is just a drawing, I definitely see 3 bubbles on the left and 3 on the right. But what about the center bubble(s) - is it a 3-1-3 or a 3-2-3?  And what about the neck logo - is it depicted as being embossed or an applied color label? I see the lines above and below the 7up, but those might just depict where the light reflections start and end near the shoulder. Compare it to iggy's 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles and see what you think  ...


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## SODABOB

Here's some more of what I call the tricky/complicated stuff - but I'll do my best with it so please bear with me as it will take several post to complete ... 

First up are these two 7up ads. One of the interesting things about them is that they were both published on the same exact day but are from two different newspapers. I will post some cropped images from them shortly, but for now I will just post the ads as they originally appeared, and then discuss them a little later ...


[ The Los Angeles Times ~ *July 11, 1940* ]

View attachment 185827


[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ *July 11, 1940* ] 






View attachment 185828


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## SODABOB

And here are a couple of cropped and enhanced images from the same two ads. 

Note: (In my last post you probably noticed the 3-1-3 bubble placement on both cartons) 

Now notice this cropped portion from the 1940  Los Angeles Times ad. Especially notice that it depicts an embossed neck logo = u7p

[ 3rd bottle from the left-side-front ]


View attachment 185829


This cropped image is from the 1940 Bakersfield ad

Notice ...

1. Back bottle = ?-1-3 bubble placement

2. Front bottle = ?-2-3 bubble placement

3. Neck logo = Not sure - Possibly embossed - No obvious ACL logo


I'm thinking the ?-2-3 front bottle might be an 8 bubble and the ?-1-3  back bottle might be a 7 bubble


View attachment 185830


(To be continued)


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## SODABOB

The main observations I'm trying to point out are ... 

1.  Even though the earliest confirmed 3-1-3  Los Angeles bottles are iggy's two 1941 examples with ACL neck logos, I'm thinking there might also be 8 bubble Los Angeles bottles with embossed neck logos from 1940 and earlier - possibly as early as 1936 or 1937

2. Even thought there is no confirmed 3-1-3 bottle from Bakersfield, I'm thinking the one in my last post is a 3-1-3 that might have an embossed neck logo


In other words, I'm thinking this Bakersfield bottle, that I posted earlier, and has an obvious embossed neck logo, might be from 1940 or earlier. Unfortunately, we still don't know the date or bubble placement on this particular example, but my best guess is that its an 8 bubble. If we could just find a picture of the front and base of one of these mystery bottles, it might provide us with some significant clues ...


View attachment 185831


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## SODABOB

Next Question ...

Do we know for certain whether all of this 3-1-3 stuff (bottles-signs-wood crates-newspaper images - etc) originated in Los Angeles or in Bakersfield? 

Footnote:

I have to admit that I'm a little confused myself regarding the answer to this question. However, if the bottle I cropped from the 1940 Bakersfield ad is indeed a 3-1-3, then that predates iggy's two Los Angeles bottles by one year. Not to mention the 3-1-3 Bakersfield sign from 1939.


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## SODABOB

Even though I don't know the exact date on this particular Bakersfield bottle, because it doesn't have the Swimsuit Girl label its likely from the late 1950s or 1960s.  The reason I'm even posting it is to confirm that other Bakersfield bottles do exist - but for some reason are kinda hard to find


( The thing stuck in the top is one of those clothes sprinkling spouts )


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## SODABOB

Just for the record ...

*24 <(I)> 6*

1. I realize the last number could be a 5 or a 6 - but I think its a 6 - either way, its pretty early

2. The 24 is for the Illinois-Pacific Coast Company that was in operation in Los Angeles between 1932 and 1937

3. Notice it has 8 bubbles

4. Notice it has an embossed neck logo

 5. Notice its 6 1/2 ounce

I'm still looking for 1937 through 1940 7up bottles from Los Angeles to see how they compare to iggy's 3-1-3 examples, but so far this is the closest I have found ...


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## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> This bottle was described as being embossed on the base with "Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Co." and dated 1937. I don't have time right now, but eventually I'll look for others like it and hopefully find one with a pic of the base. But at the present I have no reason to doubt the description. Notice it has 8 bubbles and an embossed neck. But whether the 1938 through 1940 Los Angeles bottles are like this one, I don't know yet.
> 
> 
> Especially notice that its marked 6 1/2 Ounces
> 
> 
> View attachment 185704
> 
> View attachment 185705




This is from Post #103 and I believe its the same Los Angeles bottle that I just posted except this one was described as being a 1937.


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## SODABOB

Based on *everything* I have found and seen during the course of this discussion, I believe the following will be necessary in order to put a final bottle-*cap* on the 3-1-3 7up bottles mystery ...

1. We need to find confirmed examples of 1939-40-41-42 7up bottles from Bakersfield to see what the bubble placements look like. That way we will know for certain if they have the 3-1-3 bubbles and when they were produced. 

2. We need to find confirmed examples of 1940 and 1942 7up bottles from Los Angeles and San Bernardino. We already know the 1941 bottles from both of those locations have the 3-1-3 bubbles, but we need to see the 1940 and 1942 bottles in order to determine what the bubble placements look like on them. That way we will know for certain if 1941 was the only year they were produced or if the 1940 and 1942 bottles also have the 3-1-3 bubbles.  

To summarize ...  

As it stands now, I am of the opinion that the 3-1-3 bottles started in Bakersfield and the 3-1-3 bottles from Los Angeles and San Bernardino came later. But in order to confirm anything, the first thing we need to do is find the bottles listed above. 

Just for the record, here are the labels again on the 1941 3-1-3 bottles from Los Angeles and San Bernardino. They appear identical to me, including the bubbles above the swimsuit girl. 


[ iggy's two Los Angeles bottles ] *23 <(I)> 1.*



 

[ San Bernardino ]  *23 <(I)> 1.


*


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## SODABOB

So I'm going to put a *temporary *"The End" to my participation for the time being, but will continue to look for the bottles I listed. You will definitely hear from me if/when that occurs. 

Hmm ... Just when we thought we had the 3-1-3 bubbles figured out this 3-3-3 cardboard sign turns up. But there's no way I'm going to research it because I already have enough irons in the fire without adding another one



View attachment 185857



*The End*


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## SODABOB

Well, I found 'something' Even though neither of the attached base pictures are from California, nor are they 3-1-3 bottles, they should help us to recognize 1940 and 1942 bottles. As for the copy/pasted information that follows, its what I call "The Rest of the Story" regarding the new 1939 Bakersfield 7up bottling plant. Maybe it will assist us in the future. 

Especially notice where it says ...

1. "Months of thought and preparatory work went into the planning" 

2. "7up was originally brought to Kern county in bottles processed in Los Angeles and distributed by trucks"

7-UP Bottling Company of Bakersfield Adds Further Strength to the Enviable Industrial Structure of This Metropolis

*Its New, Beautiful and Pretentious Building, 230 East Eighteenth Street, Heralds to the World Bakersfield’s Progress; 7-UP Is a Delicious, Health-Promoting Beverage Recognized for Its Flavor, Purity and “Zip”; a Solution to the Hostess’ Problem.

*
*The story of 7-Up (1939) - Click Americana*

_By R Kenneth Evans

_The company is the newest acquisition to Bakersfield’s industrial structure, with its imposing and handsome building, representing an investment of more than $200,000. D W Washburn envisioned this bottling plant in Bakersfield as one most completely equipped for the purpose of bottling only one beverage. Months of thought and preparatory work went into the planning. The plant was formally opened to the public June 14, 1939. 7up was originally brought to Kern county in bottles processed in Los Angeles and distributed by trucks.The plant is recognized as the best planned bottling plant in the western section of the United States, having a floor space of more than 16,000 square feet. The building, two stories in height, of concrete construction, is strictly modern in every detail and the appearance enhanced by beautifully landscaped grounds surrounding it. Offices, bottling equipment and storage space are on the ground floor level while the mixing laboratory, isolated for sanitation, is on the second floor. On this floor is also a public auditorium, well planned for environment and available to Bakersfield civic service clubs and individuals for private meetings. Located in the basement are the water filters, air conditioning units, and water pumps. The bottling rooms on the main floor are of tile construction with stainless steel throughout.  Emphasizing the industrial aspect and value of this new plant in Bakersfield is that it maintains an annual payroll running into many thousands of dollars. It is definitely a Bakersfield industry, giving regular employment to more than 20 trained people, headed by D K Washburn as president and direct management of A J Crocker. In the beginning many looked with askance on Mr Washburn’s idea of developing an industry with one beverage as his product.


*1940 Owens-Illinois 7up Base
*
View attachment 185858

*1942 Owens-Illinois 7up Base

*View attachment 185859
And here's me going out with a "Bang" ...:fireworks:


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## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

I didn't expect to be back this soon but discovered something "Verry Intrresting" that I thought was worth mentioning. I was searching for *any* 1941 7up bottle from *any* location and found several of them. But what I discover is that without exception every one of them is an 8 Bubble bottle. As it stands now, your two Los Angeles bottles and the one San Bernardino bottle are the only ones I'm aware of that have 7 Bubbles. My search is still ongoing and I need to look at more 1941 bottles, but I'm already seeing a trend that could point to the 3-1-3 bottles as possibly being the first to be produced with 7 Bubbles. Those of us who are familiar with 7up's history have heard the story that goes something like this ... 

"Somewhere along the line someone noticed the 8 bubbles and suggested changing it to 7 bubbles to match the brand name"

Well, what if that someone was D. K. Washburn or A. J. Crocker and the somewhere was Bakersfield or Los Angeles?

I guess the only way to shed more light on this is to keep looking for other 1941 bottles and see if the trend I mentioned holds up. If it does, then its possible that the Kern County, California 1941 7up bottles were the verry first to have the 7 bubbles, which I consider kind of significant if not historical. Here's a list of the 1941 8 Bubble bottles I have found so far. All but one of them has an ACL neck logo. The bottle from Epping Bottling in Louisville, Kentucky is the only one on this list that has the embossed neck logo ...

Clarksdale, Mississippi
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky
Aberdeen, South Dakoda
Houston, Texas (Amber)
St. Joseph, Missouri
Lincoln, Nebraska
Jamestown, North Dakota

Note: 
If anyone finds any 1941 7up bottles that are not on my list, please add them. Please note if they are 8 Bubble or 7 Bubble bottles, and if they have an embossed or ACL neck logo - Thanks


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## iggyworf

I now have another computer and so far so good. 

I searched hundreds of 7up bottles and did find one 7 bubble dated 1940 from Chicago. Made at the Fairmont WV plant. I also own a 1940 7 bubble all white 7up bottle from Houghton Michigan. Also made at the same plant. ?Both with the regular 2-2-3 pattern. My Houghton one has an ACL neck logo also. 





It would have been nice to fit into the theory of the SOCAL being the first with 7 bubbles in our 3-1-3 pattern.


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## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

Welcome back 

Two things ... 

1. If the 1940 Chicago bottle you mentioned is the one pictured, the 4. with Duraglas is a 1944 bottle, not 1940. A 1940 looks something like this ... 23 <(I)> O 

2. When I said the first 3-1-3 bottles might have originated in SOCAL, what I meant is that they might have come from the Bakersfield plant - which began operation in the spring of 1939. As we know, it was at the Bakersfield plant where the 3-1-3 sign was erected in 1939. I'm thinking their first bottle (if there was one ?) might have been a 3-1-3 to match their sign. If so, that would date the first 7 bubble bottle at 1939. But we will never know for certain until we find a 1939 or 1940 bottle from Bakersfield. As a reminder, here's the only early Bakersfield bottle again that I'm aware of. I do not know when it was made or what the bubble placement is, but it does have an embossed neck logo. Where there's one bottle, there should be others. But finding one is a horse of a different color.


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## SODABOB

Here's the base on a 1939 7up

View attachment 185913



And here's a 1940 


View attachment 185914


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## SODABOB

And here's a tid-bit of information from one of Bill Lockhart's articles ... 


Many of the post-1937 Seven-Up bottles have another code embossed on either
the base or the heel (e.g., 4285G on one base or G94 on another). This is the model or
catalog number. These apparently varied from factory to factory, even within the same
company. The 4285G number, for example came from plant #23 (Los Angeles), Owens-
Illinois. However, plant #7 (Alton, Illinois) of Owens-Illinois used G94 on its Seven-Up
bottles.


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## iggyworf

Thanx for the correction Bob. I rechecked my Owens Illinois info to see my mistake. Good work and we will just keep on searchin!


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## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> iggy/Rich
> 
> I didn't expect to be back this soon but discovered something "Verry Intrresting" that I thought was worth mentioning. I was searching for *any* 1941 7up bottle from *any* location and found several of them. But what I discover is that without exception every one of them is an 8 Bubble bottle. As it stands now, your two Los Angeles bottles and the one San Bernardino bottle are the only ones I'm aware of that have 7 Bubbles. My search is still ongoing and I need to look at more 1941 bottles, but I'm already seeing a trend that could point to the 3-1-3 bottles as possibly being the first to be produced with 7 Bubbles. Those of us who are familiar with 7up's history have heard the story that goes something like this ...
> 
> "Somewhere along the line someone noticed the 8 bubbles and suggested changing it to 7 bubbles to match the brand name"
> 
> Well, what if that someone was D. K. Washburn or A. J. Crocker and the somewhere was Bakersfield or Los Angeles?
> 
> I guess the only way to shed more light on this is to keep looking for other 1941 bottles and see if the trend I mentioned holds up. If it does, then its possible that the Kern County, California 1941 7up bottles were the verry first to have the 7 bubbles, which I consider kind of significant if not historical. Here's a list of the 1941 8 Bubble bottles I have found so far. All but one of them has an ACL neck logo. The bottle from Epping Bottling in Louisville, Kentucky is the only one on this list that has the embossed neck logo ...
> 
> Clarksdale, Mississippi
> Epping - Louisville, Kentucky
> Aberdeen, South Dakoda
> Houston, Texas (Amber)
> St. Joseph, Missouri
> Lincoln, Nebraska
> Jamestown, North Dakota
> 
> Note:
> If anyone finds any 1941 7up bottles that are not on my list, please add them. Please note if they are 8 Bubble or 7 Bubble bottles, and if they have an embossed or ACL neck logo - Thanks
> 
> 
> View attachment 185886[/QUO
> 
> 
> you can add 'Reading Lancaster Pa' to the list. 8 bubbles ACL neck logo with 7 bubbles.
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/623928...=sr_gallery-4-48&organic_search_click=1&frs=1


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## SODABOB

Rich

When searching, try using the *4285G *code once in awhile along with whatever other wording you use. Even if a a seller doesn't know what the code means, they sometimes include it in their description. The 4285G is specific to the Owens-Illinois plant  #23 in Los Angeles. I'm confident that's where most if not all of the Kern County (Bakersfield - San Bernardino)  bottles were made.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks ...

*1941 7up Bottles ...
*
Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck

Bakersfield, California = ? Bubble = Emb Neck

(If/when more are found, just copy/paste those listed above and then add the new one)


----------



## iggyworf

Just rechecked my own 8bubble bottles and found I have 3 more to add,


*1941 7up Bottles ...
*
Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck

Bakersfield, California = ? Bubble = Emb Neck


----------



## SODABOB

Copy/Pasted/Add One


*1941 7up Bottles ...

Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Houston, Texas = Amber Stubby = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck = Duraglas

Bakersfield, California = ? Bubble = Emb Neck




*




9 = Owens Illinois plat number ~ Streator, Illinois

10 = Mold Cavity Number


----------



## shotdwn

​*1941 7up Bottles ...

Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Houston, Texas = Amber Stubby = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck = Duraglas

Bakersfield, California = ? Bubble = Emb Neck
Joliet/Chicago=8=ACL neck
*


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn

Nice find - but where-oh-where are the 1941 7 bubble bottles?


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, iggy

Howz about a *1940* 3-1-3 from Los Angeles ...

[ Wilmington Daily Press ~ Wilmington, California ~ April 4, *1940* ]

Note:

Wilmington is a neighborhood in the Los Angeles Harbor Region area of Los Angeles, California, covering 9.14 square miles. Featuring a heavy concentration of industry and the third-largest oil field in the continental United States.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

*1940* 7up bottles (or any 1940 Owens-Illinois soda bottle from any town or state) might be a little hard to find because it appears from what I've been seeing that most sellers don't know anything or very little about date codes. So even if they do describe the base marks (which is rarely done by sellers) they don't realize that a '0' (zero) represents 1940. So please keep this in mind when conducting your searches. Just for the record, here's what a 1940 Owens-Illinois Los Angeles plant #23 7up bottle date code looks like (with some having 'Duraglas' and some not)


*​23 <(I)> 0.*


----------



## SODABOB

iggy/Rich

Just in case I haven't made myself clear, I want to clarify that I'm strongly leaning toward the possibility that everything related to the 3-1-3 bottles, signs, etc; started with ...

*The 3-1-3 7up Sign in Bakersfield in 1939 

*(But only with time and more research will we know for certain if my theory holds up)


----------



## iggyworf

I am leaning towards that conclusion also. With all of the research that has been done, mostly by you. Thank you!

I did locate this write up about the Bakersfield plant. 
"
*7-Up Bottling*
*(1934) 230 E. 18th St.*
Forty-five  years ago, long before Highway 99 moved two miles to the west, Union  Avenue/Golden State Highway was a bustling business corridor. And this  distinctive edifice, with its three-story spire topped with a rotating  7-Up logo, was a popular place. The 7-Up building, widely believed to  have been built in 1934, was a popular vantage point for the city’s  annual Christmas parade. People would beg to go inside the building and  take in the view.
The rotating sign, built by Bakersfield Neon,  spun with an electric motor connected to a differential from a 1944  Ford. When the original part ceased to function, the whole thing ground  to a permanent stop, and replacement parts couldn’t be located.
Many  longtime Bakersfield residents will remember touring the soft-drink  bottling operation as a Cub Scout or elementary school student. The  management would give each kid a seven-ounce bottle of soda and a little  paper hat.

*Kern County Land Co."



from here,

https://www.bakersfield.com/our-sto...cle_12ccbf46-9246-58c8-8da6-139b0234be1c.html
*


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

I think you'll agree the Bakersfield article is interesting but inaccurate. As we know, the plant had its formal opening on June 14, 1939. So I have to wonder where the author came up with the 1934 date. According to the heading, the article was written in 2012 - and yet the author states "45-years ago" - with 45 years before 2012 being 1967. Other than the dating errors, the rest of the article seems accurate, although I had never heard the part about how the sign was operated, and have to question that as well until I see additional evidence to support the claim. Notice where he says the sign was partially operated by a "1944 Ford." How could there possibly have been a 1944 Ford in 1934? And even if the 1934 date is a typo for 1944, things still don't fit properly. The more I re-read the article and think about it, the more I think the author did not do any research and was just guessing. Especially notice where he says "The 7-Up building, widely believed to have been built in 1934" -  I wonder where he got his information when all he would have had to do is a little research to discover the plant was definitely built and opened in 1939 and not in 1934.  ???


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> View attachment 185700
> 
> View attachment 185703



Just as a reminder ...

From post #101 - Save and zoom to read the entire two-page article about the formal opening - With the June 13, 1939 date at the top.


----------



## SODABOB

And just to be fair to everyone concerned, here's the Bill Lockhart chart again - notice he list a 7 Bubble bottle as early as 1938. However, notice in the footnotes where he mentions "using old molds and equipment." In other words, a bottle first issued/distributed in 1939 could easily have been made in 1938, and a bottle first issued/distributed in 1940 could have been made in 1939. This topic has never been fully explored that I'm aware of, but there is a measure of evidence that suggest there was at least a 6 month lead time between when a bottle was ordered / made and when it was used / distributed by a bottler.

View attachment 185991


----------



## SODABOB

Food for thought / Homework ...

Notice that this (date unknown) Bakersfield bottle has the *u7p *embossed neck logo. Based on everything we know thus far, when do you think this bottle was made?  Clue = Refer to Bill Lockhart's chart ...


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> I think you'll agree the Bakersfield article is interesting but inaccurate. As we know, the plant had its formal opening on June 14, 1939. So I have to wonder where the author came up with the 1934 date. According to the heading, the article was written in 2012 - and yet the author states "45-years ago" - with 45 years before 2012 being 1967. Other than the dating errors, the rest of the article seems accurate, although I had never heard the part about how the sign was operated, and have to question that as well until I see additional evidence to support the claim. Notice where he says the sign was partially operated by a "1944 Ford." How could there possibly have been a 1944 Ford in 1934? And even if the 1934 date is a typo for 1944, things still don't fit properly. The more I re-read the article and think about it, the more I think the author did not do any research and was just guessing. Especially notice where he says "The 7-Up building, widely believed to have been built in 1934" -  I wonder where he got his information when all he would have had to do is a little research to discover the plant was definitely built and opened in 1939 and not in 1934.  ???
> 
> 
> View attachment 185990



 can't believe some of those differences slipped by me.

The bottle - 1940?
I


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

You said "1940?" (with a question mark) I concur but will word it as . "no later than 1940"

Just for the record ...

Here's the 2nd generation embossed neck logo *7up* that is referred to in Bill Lockhart's chart. This one came after the *u7p *logo


----------



## iggyworf

I have 2 bottles with similar embossed logos like that one.

Here is a pic of an add from RI to deepen the mystery. I am trying to find any info on the west barrington bottling co of RI.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

I will poke around and see what I can find related to the 3-1-3 West Barrington stuff. In the meantime, here's another twist that I/we sort of forgot about. Its the Los Angeles bottle originally posted by member kbobam in 2008. 

Notice ...

1. Its a 3-1-3

2. It has the embossed *u7p *neck logo

3. Its a 6 1/2 Ounce

(I emailed kbobam about a year ago to ask about the bottle's date, but never heard back from him)  

Speaking of the date, based on our recent exchange I believe we both agree that the *u7p *logos were produced no later than 1940. If this is true, then kbobam's bottle predates your 1941 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles by a full year. And, yes, I'm hinting at the possibility that kbobam's bottle might be dated anytime between 1936 and 1940, but leaning towards it being a 1939. This is another situation of "where there's one bottle there should be others." Of course, finding one is something else. Anyway, I'm going to see if I can find one like it and will let you know if/when I do. It might even lead to a 3-1-3 Bakersfield bottle.  

(No picture of the base) (Bummer)


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

In my last post I said this ...

*"**Speaking of the date, based on our recent exchange I believe we both agree that the **u7p logos were produced no later than 1940. If this is true, then kbobam's bottle predates your 1941 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles by a full year. And, yes, I'm hinting at the possibility that kbobam's bottle might be dated anytime between 1936 and 1940, but leaning towards it being a 1939. This is another situation of "where there's one bottle there should be others." Of course, finding one is something else. Anyway, I'm going to see if I can find one like it and will let you know if/when I do. It might even lead to a 3-1-3 Bakersfield bottle." 

*But want to re-word/edit it here in *red *...

*"**Speaking of the date, based on our recent exchange I believe we both agree that the **u7p logos were produced no later than 1940. If this is true, then kbobam's bottle predates your 1941 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles by a full year. And, yes, I'm hinting at the possibility that kbobam's bottle might be dated anytime between 1936 and 1940, but leaning towards it possibly being a 1940, but no later than that This is another situation of "where there's one bottle there should be others." Of course, finding one is something else. Anyway, I'm going to see if I can find one like it and will let you know if/when I do. It might even lead to a 3-1-3 Bakersfield bottle. 

*( I will explain shortly why I edited it )


----------



## SODABOB

This is going to be another one of those tricky-to-explain quandaries, but will do my best by posting it in segments. For starters, I'm trying to determine exactly when the Los Angeles Seven Up Bottling Company began operation. What started this recent research was my inability to find a *Los Angeles *7up bottle dated earlier than *1938*. I have searched every resource I can find and the best I can come up with is this snippet that speaks for itself ...

*February 1, 1938*


 


Reminder:  This will take several post to complete - so please bear with me as it might take all day or longer


----------



## SODABOB

I posted this bottle earlier and guessed it was either a 1935 or 1936. But I'm taking that back until I or someone else finds a better picture of the base because I believe the date code might actually be an *8 *for 1938. 

 


Especially notice ...

1. Owens-Illinois plant #24

2. Catalog/Mold # 4243G




Footnote: I will address the Owens-Illinois plant numbers 23 and 24 later on.


----------



## SODABOB

Prior to 1938 there was another 7up bottler in the Los Angeles area known as "The Best Ever Bottling Company" located in Arcadia, California. Arcadia is a city in Los Angeles County, California located about 13 miles northeast of downtown Los Angeles in the San Gabriel Valley and at the base of the San Gabriel Mountains.

Note:  I'm not sure what they mean where it says "the eastern part of Los Angeles County" nor where the territory border was between the West and the East. All I can tell you at this juncture is that the article came from ... 


[ The Arcadia Tribune ~ August 2, *1935*  ]


----------



## SODABOB

Which brings us to this "Best Ever Bottling" 7up bottle from Arcadia - Which looks like an *8* to me ... I'm confident the Owens-Illinois plant number is *24 *because the Catalog/Mold number is *​4243G *which was used by plant number 24 as seen on the Los Angeles bottle I just posted.

View attachment 186048


View attachment 186049


----------



## SODABOB

In other words, I think both of the bottles I just posted were both made at plant #24 in 1938

( I'm not done yet - but getting there )


----------



## SODABOB

I know that iggy and other members are familiar with the following Owens-Illinois charts - So I'm primarily posting them for members who are not familiar with them. They are the charts that most of us refer to when researching Owens-Illinois. But the overall main reason I'm posting them is to point out that not one of them list Owens-Illinois plant #24. No one seems to know why plant #24 is not listed, but we know for certain it existed because of the Los Angeles (and possibly Arcadia) bottle I just posted base pictures of. Anyway, I will discuss this in more detail later on. 

Note: The last chart pictured here is the earliest of the three and is from Julian Toulouse's 1971 book ""Bottle Makers and their Marks" which I have a copy of. I'm not 100% certain who compiled the other two charts, but I believe they might have been compiled by Bill Lockhart and the Bottle Research Group (BRG)











(More to follow )


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

According to most sources, Owens-Ilinois plant #24 was in operation between 1932 and 1937. However, the Arcadia bottle I just posted clearly has *24 <(I)> 8 *on the base, so I guess I will have to call into question the 1937 closing date for plant #24


----------



## SODABOB

Even though I have not found absolute confirmation as to when plant #24 closed, I feel it is safe to assume it ceased operation by 1938 at the latest. As to the 1932 date when it began operation, the following should confirm that date. Please note that what I have been referring to as plant #24 was originally called ...  

*The Illinois Pacific Coast Company


*[ The Los Angeles Times ~ March 18, *1932* ]

Notes: 

1. The article starts with "Toledo" where the information originated, but was re-published in the Los Angeles Times. Toledo was where the Owens-Illinois' parent company was located and was considered plant #1

2. Owens-Illinois was established in 1929 when Illinois Glass and Owens Glass merged.


View attachment 186054


----------



## SODABOB

Before I conclude this, please be reminded that iggy's 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles are marked with ...


*23 <(I)> 1.  *(1941)


----------



## SODABOB

Now comes the really tricky part, or what I call ...

Long Story Short / Summary / Speculation / Assumption / All Rolled Into One ...

1. Based on what I have been seeing, it appears the Owens-Illinois plant #24 in Los Angeles closed at about the same time as the second Seven Up Bottling Company opened in Los Angeles - both of which appear to have occurred in 1938. 

2. Even though we don't know for certain when or where member kbobam's 3-1-3 Los Angeles 7up bottle was made, it likely came from one of the two Owens-Illinois plants -  namely plant #23 or plant #24. 

3. If kbobam's 3-1-3 bottle came from plant #24, it was likely made in 1938 or *earlier*. 

4. If kbobam's 3-1-3 bottle came from plant #23, it was likely made in 1938 or *later*.

5. If kbobam's 3-1-3 bottle was made in 1938 or earlier, it would precede iggy's 3-1-3 bottles by at least three years, as well as preceding the Bakersfield 7up bottling plant by at least one year. 

6. If kbobam's 3-1-3 bottle was made in 1939 or 1940, it would still precede iggy's 3-1-3 bottles by at least a year or two, but would sort of fall in line with the opening of the Bakersfield 7up bottling plant in 1939. 

7. The only way I think we will ever know what came first; the 3-1-3 Bakersfield sign or kbobam's 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottle, is ...

*A. To find another bottle like kbobam's that has the u7p neck logo that came from Los Angeles and has good pictures of the front, back, and base. 

B. To find a Bakersfield bottle with good pictures of the front, back, and base.

*


----------



## SODABOB

*
Christmas Special ... *:flag:*

I will send a free ACL book ($65 value) to the first member who post ...

1. Good pictures of a pre-1941 Bakersfield 7up bottle

or ...

2. Good pictures of a 7up bottle like member kbobam's

Signed ... 
**
Sodabob

*


----------



## SODABOB

*Stocking Stuffer 

Add this to my list for the free ACL book ...

3. Any 1938 through 1942 ACL 7up bottle from any of the following California locations that have not already been posted on this or any other thread.

Bakersfield / City & County
San Bernardino / City & County
Los Angeles / City & County



*


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> I know that iggy and other members are familiar with the following Owens-Illinois charts - So I'm primarily posting them for members who are not familiar with them. They are the charts that most of us refer to when researching Owens-Illinois. But the overall main reason I'm posting them is to point out that not one of them list Owens-Illinois plant #24. No one seems to know why plant #24 is not listed, but we know for certain it existed because of the Los Angeles (and possibly Arcadia) bottle I just posted base pictures of. Anyway, I will discuss this in more detail later on.
> 
> Note: The last chart pictured here is the earliest of the three and is from Julian Toulouse's 1971 book ""Bottle Makers and their Marks" which I have a copy of. I'm not 100% certain who compiled the other two charts, but I believe they might have been compiled by Bill Lockhart and the Bottle Research Group (BRG)
> 
> 
> View attachment 186051
> 
> 
> View attachment 186052
> 
> 
> View attachment 186053
> 
> 
> (More to follow )



This article here does list plant #24, scroll down to page 7. 'The Bewildering Array of Owens-Illinois Glass Co. Logos and Codes'  It lists that it opened in 1932 and closed in 1937.


https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0g...hart.pdf/RK=2/RS=GyG2Vi_88zsOaMUR.rPUEn5cpbs-


----------



## iggyworf

can anyone make out the bottom of this embossed 'u7p' bottle? It looks like a #23 on the left and possibly a 0 and dot on right.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-7UP-E...=item521424d1bb:g:myMAAOSw3xJVaO1D:rk:18:pf:0


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

That Bill Lockhart pdf file is where I found the Plant #24 information - I still call into question that Plant #24 closed in 1937 because of the "Arcadia / Best Ever" bottle I posted pictures of with the 24 <(I)> 8 base mark.

I can't make out the right-side number on the Hawaii bottle, but it could be a 0. (zero with a dot) for 1940. According to Bill Lockhart and the Bottle Research Group (BRG) they observed the use of the dot on Owens-Illinois soda bottles between 1940 and 1946. But the dot appears only on Owens Illinois *soda *bottles and not other types of bottles. Apparently they switched to double-digit numbers around 1947. 

But what I find just as mysterious about the Hawaii bottle is that it has plant #23 along with the catalog/mold number 4243G. So far I have only seen the 4243G on bottles made at Plant #24. Plant #23 bottles normally use the 4285G like on your two Los Angeles bottles. So I guess this adds another mystery to things because I am clueless at the moment as to why a Plant #23 bottle has a Plant #24 catalog/mold number. 

Here are a couple of pics of the Hawaii bottle on eBay (which I tried to enhance but didn't do much good)

View attachment 186072 

View attachment 186073


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Rich

Another confusing thing about 7up bottles and the research done on them is that most references say the "Fresh Up" in script was introduced around 1940 like on the back of the Hawaii bottle. But what's confusing is that your 1941 Los Angeles bottles have the "Fresh Up" in block font. Maybe one of these days we can figure out exactly when the block font "Fresh Up" ended and the script  "Fresh Up" began.


----------



## SODABOB

PS ~ PS

If anyone finds an *ACL *7up bottle with a 0 (zero) to the right of the Owens-Illinois logo (whether it has a dot or not) you can be certain that its a 1940 bottle. The reason I say this is threefold ...

1. There were no *ACL *7up bottles in 193*0*

2. Owens-Illinois switched to double-digit numbers before 195*0

*3. Which only leaves 194*0*


----------



## SODABOB

Triple PS ~ PS ~ PS

Rich

I just sent the eBay Hawaii 7up bottle seller an email and asked what the number is to the right of the 23 <(I)> ?  mark. I will let you know when I hear back from them.


----------



## SODABOB

This link is to the 1940 7up bottle I posted a base picture of earlier. The bottle itself is from Washington state but the listing is from France. I did a lot of clicking around and didn't have any problems so it appears to be a safe site. It has 8 bubbles and an ACL neck logo, and pretty sure the plant number is 23. Its priced in Euro money (c 69.95) which converts to $79.62 in U.S. money. I was thinking about buying it but not at that price. But it does have one of those magnifying viewers that's kind of cool. Check it out ...


https://www.1944supply.com/miscellaneous/7-up-bottle-1940-dated.html


----------



## SODABOB

*1941 7up Bottles ... Add One Update

Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Houston, Texas = Amber Stubby = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck = Duraglas
Joliet/Chicago = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
No Location = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck

Bakersfield, California = ? Bubble = Emb Neck


*



*9 <(I)> 1.  *( The 9 is for Streator, Illinois)


----------



## SODABOB

Even though I said I would give a free ACL book to the first member who found a 1938 through 1942 ACL 7up bottle from Bakersfield, San Bernardino, or Los Angeles, this particular 1942 bottle would not qualify as a winner because it doesn't have a 7up label. It has a "*Tang Up*" label. However, because of the plant #23 and the catalog/mold number 4285G, plus Duraglas, I'm 99.99% confident they used a typical 7up bottle mold to make this bottle. Even though its not a winner, it at least shows us what a *23 <(I)> 2. / 4285G / Duraglas *Owens-Illinois bottle looks like. Not to mention that its from a *Los Angeles *bottler.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

I still haven't heard from the Hawaii seller but hope to today. In the meantime, the "Tang Up" bottle got me to wondering about the different molds used at the two Los Angeles Owens-Illinois plants - namely Plant #23 and Plant #24. The two bottles pictured below are from the original thread when you did your measurement test. Both bottles are from Los Angeles. The bottle on the left is your 1941 3-1-3 6 1/2 Ounce. The bottle on the right is your 1945 2-2-3 7 Ounce. What I'd like to know is the catalog/mold numbers on each of these bottles, and whether they are the same or different? I have a 1952 San Diego 7up bottle that was made at Plant #23 that has the mold number G94 on the base. So that gives us at least three different mold numbers from the two Los Angeles Owens-Illinois plants, which are ...

Plant #23 = 4285G ~ 94G  ~ 4243G 
Plant #24 = 4243G 

Observation:  If your two bottles pictured below have the same mold number, then I have to wonder how it's possible that one is taller than the other and holds more liquid?


----------



## SODABOB

This Southern California map is from the original thread but I added a few things. I thought it might be of interest to members who are not familiar with the locations of the towns we have been focusing on throughout the course of this discussion ...

Bakersfield ~ Kern County ~ 3-1-3 Sign

San Bernardino ~ San Bernardino County ~ 3-1-3 Bottle

Los Angeles ~ Los Angeles County ~ iggy's 3-1-3 Bottles


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> I still haven't heard from the Hawaii seller but hope to today. In the meantime, the "Tang Up" bottle got me to wondering about the different molds used at the two Los Angeles Owens-Illinois plants - namely Plant #23 and Plant #24. The two bottles pictured below are from the original thread when you did your measurement test. Both bottles are from Los Angeles. The bottle on the left is your 1941 3-1-3 6 1/2 Ounce. The bottle on the right is your 1945 2-2-3 7 Ounce. What I'd like to know is the catalog/mold numbers on each of these bottles, and whether they are the same or different? I have a 1952 San Diego 7up bottle that was made at Plant #23 that has the mold number G94 on the base. So that gives us at least three different mold numbers from the two Los Angeles Owens-Illinois plants, which are ...
> 
> Plant #23 = 4285G ~ 94G  ~ 4243G
> Plant #24 = 4243G
> 
> Observation:  If your two bottles pictured below have the same mold number, then I have to wonder how it's possible that one is taller than the other and holds more liquid?
> 
> View attachment 186087



Bob my 1945 bottle is from Sault Ste Marie Michigan from Fairmont WV plant #3. I must have just used that one for a reference maybe? I have no other 7up bottles from LA.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks

When you get a minute or two, howz about making a list of the different mold numbers that are with different plant numbers. I don't think this has ever been done before and it might prove interesting for future research. I will look around and see what I can find and then compile a list that we can compare later. If I'm done before you, I will go go ahead and post my list that we can revise as needed according to what you come up with. But no hurry - just whenever you get the time.


----------



## SODABOB

*1941 7up Bottles ... (See Below)

Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Houston, Texas = Amber Stubby = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck = Duraglas
Joliet/Chicago = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
No Location = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck*
*
*
*(List for free ACL book)

1. Good pictures of a pre-1941 Bakersfield 7up bottle

*
*2. Good pictures of a 7up bottle like member kbobam's  *
*
*
*3. Any 1938 through 1942 ACL 7up bottle from any of the following California locations that have not already been posted on this or any other thread ...

**Bakersfield / City & County
San Bernardino / City & County
Los Angeles / City & County



(Below is Here)  *:welcome:*

Add the following to my list for the free ACL book ...


4.  Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1941 7 Bubble ACL 7up bottle from any state or town in the United States* 

*Except for any of the 3-1-3 bottles posted on this or any other thread  
*


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

I heard from the Hawaii seller and they said the date code is a solo *3. *with a dot for *1943*. Because a portion of the paint is missing where the first set of bubbles are, its inconclusive as to whether its a 7 or 8 bubble bottle. I wouldn't be surprised if it was an 8 bubble label. But regardless of that, your 3-1-3 bottles are still earlier by two years.


----------



## iggyworf

disregard


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> Thanks
> 
> When you get a minute or two, howz about making a list of the different mold numbers that are with different plant numbers. I don't think this has ever been done before and it might prove interesting for future research. I will look around and see what I can find and then compile a list that we can compare later. If I'm done before you, I will go go ahead and post my list that we can revise as needed according to what you come up with. But no hurry - just whenever you get the time.



Here are just my swimsuit bottles for now. All but one of my 8 bubble bottles do not have a mold # on bottom but have G94 on the base.

Plant #          Mold #                City                 Year
   3                 13               Fairmont WV            44
   3                 27               "               "            48
   3                 19.              "               "            43
   3                 27               "               "            47
   3                  5                "              "             46
   7                 13_               Alton Ill                 53(I have 2 like this)

Those are my 7 bubbles

My only 8 bubble with mold # is my white swimsuit bottle

   7                10                 Alton Ill                 36

Kept trying different ways to put this in a graph type form but couldn't seem to get it right


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks for the list but I might have messed up with the way I worded my request. Instead of mold number I should have said "style" numbers such as G94 - 4243G - 4285G. The second numbers on your list are mold "cavity" numbers they used to identify each individual mold on the bottle making machine in case one of them started forming defective bottles. If during the inspection of the finished bottles they detected any flaws, the "cavity" number would tell them which mold was the culprit and either repair or replace it as needed. Mold "cavity" numbers generally range between 1 and 20. I can't recall ever seeing a cavity number higher than 20, but there could be. Notice the cavity number 15 on the Hawaii bottle and the 2 and the 13 on your 3-1-3 bottles. But regardless of all of my gobblygook, I fully understand that the majority of your bottles have the G94 "style" number and were made at the Owens Illinois plant #3 in Fairmont, West Virginia. At some point I will combine our list but for now here's what I came up with. Let's focus on the Swimsuit labels and not the later bottles. My list only includes the plant number, the date code, and plant location, which are listed under three different style categories. Even though other glass companies made early 7up bottles, such as the Glenshaw Glass Company, my list only includes Owens Illinois bottles. Most sellers, and even a lot of collectors, don't realize that Glenshaw date codes are embossed on the reinforcing ring/lip of a bottle in the form of a letter that has to be translated, such as an "M" for 1941. Mainly I'm trying to determine which plants used which styles and if they are consistent. Anyway, here's what I found so far ...   

*Style 94G & G94 *(I've seen both versions but they are basically the same style of bottle)

PLANT # / DATE / Plant Location

23 / 47 (1947) / Los Angeles
9 / 2. (1942) / Streator, Illinois
3 / 47 (1947) / Fairmont, W.V.
7 / 50 (1950) / Alton, Illinois
23 / 52 (1952) / Los Angeles
3 / 46 (1946) / Fairmont, W.V.

*
Style 4243G

*23 / 3. (1943) (Hawaii Bottle) / Los Angeles
23 / 1. (iggy's 1941 3-1-3 bottles) / Los Angeles


*Style 4285G*

23 / 0. (1940) / Los Angeles
23 / 45 (1945) / Los Angeles

*Amber Squat Bottles* -  Style G853 - Usually embossed on the Heel and not the base* 

* I'm still working on these and will post more details later

And here's one the Owens Illinois plant charts again for a quick reference to the various plant numbers/locations. I will do a revised version for all of the above, including iggy's list, later on.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Now comes the part I have been chomping at the bit to post. It may be a little premature to say this until the jury returns with more results, but as it stands now ...
*
1. The 1939 Bakersfield sign is currently the earliest confirmed and known use of the 3-1-3 bubble placement  *

*2. Your 1941 3-1-3 bottles are currently the earliest confirmed and known use of 7 bubble bottles
*
But only with more time and research will we know for certain if your 3-1-3 bottles were actually the first ever to contain 7 bubbles.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> Thanks for the list but I might have messed up with the way I worded my request. Instead of mold number I should have said "style" numbers such as G94 - 4243G - 4285G. The second numbers on your list are mold "cavity" numbers they used to identify each individual mold on the bottle making machine in case one of them started forming defective bottles. If during the inspection of the finished bottles they detected any flaws, the "cavity" number would tell them which mold was the culprit and either repair or replace it as needed. Mold "cavity" numbers generally range between 1 and 20. I can't recall ever seeing a cavity number higher than 20, but there could be. Notice the cavity number 15 on the Hawaii bottle and the 2 and the 13 on your 3-1-3 bottles. But regardless of all of my gobblygook, I fully understand that the majority of your bottles have the G94 "style" number and were made at the Owens Illinois plant #3 in Fairmont, West Virginia. At some point I will combine our list but for now here's what I came up with. Let's focus on the Swimsuit labels and not the later bottles. My list only includes the plant number, the date code, and plant location, which are listed under three different style categories. Even though other glass companies made early 7up bottles, such as the Glenshaw Glass Company, my list only includes Owens Illinois bottles. Most sellers, and even a lot of collectors, don't realize that Glenshaw date codes are embossed on the reinforcing ring/lip of a bottle in the form of a letter that has to be translated, such as an "M" for 1941. Mainly I'm trying to determine which plants used which styles and if they are consistent. Anyway, here's what I found so far ...
> 
> *Style 94G & G94 *(I've seen both versions but they are basically the same style of bottle)
> 
> PLANT # / DATE / Plant Location
> 
> 23 / 47 (1947) / Los Angeles
> 9 / 2. (1942) / Streator, Illinois
> 3 / 47 (1947) / Fairmont, W.V.
> 7 / 50 (1950) / Alton, Illinois
> 23 / 52 (1952) / Los Angeles
> 3 / 46 (1946) / Fairmont, W.V.
> 
> *
> Style 4243G
> 
> *23 / 3. (1943) (Hawaii Bottle) / Los Angeles
> 23 / 1. (iggy's 1941 3-1-3 bottles) / Los Angeles
> 
> 
> *Style 4285G*
> 
> 23 / 0. (1940) / Los Angeles
> 23 / 45 (1945) / Los Angeles
> 
> *Amber Squat Bottles* -  Style G853 - Usually embossed on the Heel and not the base*
> 
> * I'm still working on these and will post more details later
> 
> And here's one the Owens Illinois plant charts again for a quick reference to the various plant numbers/locations. I will do a revised version for all of the above, including iggy's list, later on.
> 
> 
> View attachment 186100





I gotcha! All my Owens Illinois swimsuit bottles are G94.


----------



## SODABOB

Because I'm eager to give away a Free ACL book, I'm adding number 5. to my list. Surely there are some 1942 7 bubble bottles out there somewhere. However, if I messed up and forgot that a 1942 7 bubble bottle has already been posted, then number 5. is void and not a winner. Please bring it to my attention if a 1942 7 bubble bottle has already been posted. To the best of my recollection, I don't think one has been posted yet. Anyway, here's my revised list with the new addition in *green*... 

*Revised List for Free ACL book ...

1. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1941 or earlier Bakersfield ACL 7up bottle*

**2. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 7up bottle like member kbobam's ACL 7up bottle* *
*
**3. Any 1938 through 1942 ACL 7up bottle from any of the following California locations*

**Bakersfield / City & County
San Bernardino / City & County
Los Angeles / City & County* 

*4. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1941 7 Bubble ACL 7up bottle from any state or town in the United States*

5. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1942 7 Bubble ACL 7up bottle from any state or town in the United States* 


***Except for the 3-1-3 bottles posted on this or any other thread. 

*


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> Hey, iggy/Rich
> 
> What year(s) were the embossed neck logos typically supposed to have been discontinued? According to the description associated with this particular bottle (some of which are obvious from the pic) it apparently is ...
> 
> 1. From Spokane, Washington
> 
> 2. Produced at the LA Plant #23
> 
> 3. Dated 1942
> 
> 4. 7 bubble 2-3-2
> 
> 5. Embossed neck logo
> 
> 
> View attachment 185682




I forgot about this one from Post #85 but because there is no picture of the base and is only a description, it cannot be considered as a *confirmed* date. However, if anyone finds a picture of the base for this bottle or one like it, I will send you a Free ACL book.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Because I'm eager to give away a Free ACL book, I'm adding number 5. to my list. Surely there are some 1942 7 bubble bottles out there somewhere. However, if I messed up and forgot that a 1942 7 bubble bottle has already been posted, then number 5. is void and not a winner. Please bring it to my attention if a 1942 7 bubble bottle has already been posted. To the best of my recollection, I don't think one has been posted yet. Anyway, here's my revised list with the new addition in *green*...
> 
> *Revised List for Free ACL book ...
> 
> 1. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1941 or earlier Bakersfield ACL 7up bottle*
> 
> **2. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 7up bottle like member kbobam's ACL 7up bottle* *
> *
> **3. Any 1938 through 1942 ACL 7up bottle from any of the following California locations*
> 
> **Bakersfield / City & County
> San Bernardino / City & County
> Los Angeles / City & County*
> 
> *4. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1941 7 Bubble ACL 7up bottle from any state or town in the United States*
> 
> 5. Good pictures (Front - Back - Base) of any 1942 7 Bubble ACL 7up bottle from any state or town in the United States*
> 
> 
> ***Except for the 3-1-3 bottles posted on this or any other thread.
> 
> *



Bob I already know of a 1942 7 bubble bottle but I have gotten An ACL book from you already so I will not participate in the contest. Good luck to anyone else!


----------



## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> bottle-bud
> 
> I can't read the entire article but do see "Gary, Indiana" at the bottom. I did a quick search and found this bottle that's currently on eBay.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-UP-ACL-S...ge-Indianapolis-Gary-Evansville-/202275544742
> 
> Notice ...
> 
> 1. It has Gary on the back along with Indianapolis and Evansville - all located in Indiana
> 
> 2. The base is marked with "Duraglas" and has a 2. for 1942
> 
> 3. Its a 2-2-3
> 
> 
> So I don't know what to make of it other than its one year after the Los Angeles bottles and five years earlier than the 1947 date on your article.   ???
> 
> 
> View attachment 185534
> 
> 
> View attachment 185535
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 185536





I also forgot about this one - So I guess I will have to void number 5. on my list because this bottle confirms there were indeed 7 bubble bottles made in 1942. Please accept my apologies for not checking first before posting my revised list. But everything else on the list still stands and will be acknowledged if/when any of the other bottles on the list are found and posted.


----------



## SODABOB

PS

In the event that none of the bottles on my list for a Free ACL book are found and posted, I will come up with some way for everyone to have a shot at a Free ACL book. Maybe I will do a pick-a-number between 1 and 100 kind of deal. But one way or another, someone is going to get a Free ACL book for New Year's.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks. Hopefully my recent post will clear up any confusion.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Rich

Despite the confusion, the silver lining is that its still looking good for your 1941 3-1-3 bottles as possibly being the first to use a 7 bubble label.


----------



## SODABOB

More ...

Some of you might have seen this ad that's currently on eBay that has "*Copr. 1941 The Seven Up Co.*" in the lower left corner and depicts a 2-2-3 bottle. However, the 1941 Copyright date doesn't necessarily confirm that the ad itself was published in 1941. Sometimes they used copyright dates like that for other reasons and used them for ads that were actually published a year or more after the so called copyright date. And please don't think I'm being hard-nosed about this and want things to be my way or no way, its just that its really the bottles and not "maybe" ads that will eventually confirm the earliest/first use of a 7 bubble bottle. Here's the eBay link to this particular ad where you can check it out for yourselves ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-7up-S...es/302959731848?hash=item4689cea488:rk:1:pf:0




 


Cropped from lower-left corner


----------



## SODABOB

P.S. 

To help support my last comments, please be reminded that WWII officially began for the U.S. on December 7, 1941. With that said, are we to believe this ad was actually published during the last three weeks of 1941 and they were already talking about buying War Bonds and exceeding the wartime supply of 7up?


----------



## SODABOB

Just for the record, I did a simple Google search and on numerous reliable sites found the following regarding the selling and buying of WWII U.S. War Bonds ... 


[FONT=&amp]
*U.S. War Bonds*


[/FONT][FONT=&amp]The last time the United States issued war bonds was during World War II, when full employment collided with rationing, and war bonds were seen as a way to remove money from circulation as well as reduce inflation. Issued by the U.S. Government, they were first called Defense Bonds.  The name was changed to War Bonds after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.  Known as debt securities for the purpose of financing military operations during war time, the bonds yielded a mere 2.9 percent return after a 10-year maturity.​[/FONT]


----------



## SODABOB

Here I go again down another rabbit hole - but its okay with me if its okay with iggy - so hold onto your Mad Hatters because this could be a Mr. Toad's wild ride ...

Note: St. Louis was the home of the 7up parent company

*Stout Sign Company*

*St. Louis, MO
*
 The Stout Sign Company was established in 1886 located in St. Louis, MO.  Stout Sign Co. was most well known for creating large advertising signs for display on the highways across the country; the signs they produced were rather large, embossed painted metal. During WWII in the 1940’s Stout Signs were hired by the federal government to support the war effort by producing large metal Uncle Sam “I Want You for the U.S. Army” signs to promote army enlistment. Stout also made signs for many of the prominent soda companies across the country like Pepsi Cola, Coca Cola, Dr. Pepper, Orange Crush, 7UP, Hire’s, Triple AAA, A&W, Dad’s, Mason’s, and Squirt.


[ Bakersfield 3-1-3 7up Sign built in 1939 ]





[ Stout 3-1-3 7up Sign marked 9-41 ]

 

[ Cropped from bottom of sign 9-41 ]




[ iggy's 3-1-3 1941 Los Angeles 7up Bottles ]


----------



## SODABOB

And, yes, the Stout Sign Company made 8 bubble 7up signs. But I can't find one that has a date on it. However, of the hundreds of Stout 7up signs I've looked at, the majority of those made after 1941 are dated. The Stout Sign Company is still in operation.

[ Dates Unknown ]


 



[ I especially like this one that depicts 7 bubbles on the sign and 8 bubbles on the embossed neck bottle ]

(Date Unknown)


----------



## SODABOB

And here's my favorite one of all ...

[ Also marked with 9-41 ]

View attachment 186122


View attachment 186123


----------



## SODABOB

[ This one is marked 10-41 ]

View attachment 186124


View attachment 186125


----------



## SODABOB

*In Search of ...
*
Stout 7up signs marked with visible dates from 1940 or earlier


----------



## SODABOB

Because I messed up with the 1942 7up bottle stuff yesterday I thought I'd make up for my goof up by adding the following to my list for the Free ACL book. Please note that even though I have already looked at hundreds of these signs, there are hundreds more to be found and hopefully someone can find one that's pre 1941 and has a visible date on it ... 

*5.  Good pictures of a Stout 7up sign that has a clearly visible date marked on it from 1940 or earlier   *


----------



## SODABOB

Hey, iggy

Look at what I *bought* on eBay this morning. I'll tell you more about it and post some pictures when it arrives.


----------



## iggyworf

Awesome! I scan ebay regularly and never seen that one. Can't wait to see more pics. I hope it's a magic 3-1-3 bubble bottle!


----------



## SODABOB

iggyworf said:


> Awesome! I scan ebay regularly and never seen that one. Can't wait to see more pics. I hope it's a magic 3-1-3 bubble bottle!




Rich

My Bakersfield bottle hasn't arrived yet but I did receive this copy/pasted message from the seller ...

"I don't know how you won this bid for a $5.00 offer when I had the auction started at $9.00. Ebay has done this to me 3 times now. If you offer $5.00 for something shouldn't I have a say so?  Ebay didn't even give me a choice. I'm sending you the bottle but this won't happen again."


I didn't send them a reply because I really didn't know what to say. All I know is that I made an offer and it was accepted. So its up to the seller to figure out what happened and not blame it on me.

By the way, don't hold your breath that the bottle is going to change things all that much. Part of the reason I only posted the back of the bottle was to tease you into thinking I had found the holy grail - which I didn't. But I will let the tease play along for now and will post pictures of the entire bottle when it arrives. 

P.S. 

I'm still not sure how I found the bottle because the word "Bakersfield" was not in the listing title. The only use of the word "Bakersfield" was in the seller's description.


----------



## SODABOB

Reminder ...

The so called Free ACL Book contest is still ongoing and hoping someone will find one or more of the qualifying items from my list. I will be traveling out of state between December 22nd and January 2nd 2019 but will have my Laptop with me to stay in touch. In the event that no one wins prior to Christmas day, on December 26th I will allow any member who is interested to pick a number between 1 and 100. The number picking process will be open for about a week and on New Year's Eve I will determine the winner and announce it on New Year's Day. Later this week I will explain how the number picking process will work so you will know that in advance. I have already drawn the winning number from a hat - but all I can disclose about it at this time is that its between 1 and 100. (Duh / Lol)


----------



## iggyworf

Another matchbook. Looks like to be from NYC?




https://www.ebay.com/itm/Matchbook-...=item364303d690:g:02UAAOSwHxdbeyJM:rk:72:pf:0


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

The Bakersfield bottle arrived yesterday only minutes after my last post. I knew from the eBay pictures that it had some label issues, including rust and grime. I took some as-is pictures and then submerged it in distilled white vinegar and let it soak overnight. I just finished cleaning and photographing it. So I'm posting the "Before" and "After" pics to show how well it cleaned up using the vinegar. But first I want to apologize for teasing you earlier by only posting the back of the bottle and not disclosing the date, etc. And to make up for my teasing, I'd like to send you the bottle if you want it and are okay with paying $10 for shipping. With shipping I paid a total of $15.90. But if you don't want it, that's okay too and I will understand. However, I will say one thing about Bakersfield 7up bottles; and that's that they seem to be hard to find no matter when they were made. I'm not sure why that is, but this example is only the second one I have come across after hours of searching. Anyway, here goes on describing the bottle from top to bottom ...

1. Bakersfield, California
2. Made by Owens-Illinois
3. Marked *23 (I) 55 *~ O-I plant #23 Los Angeles ~ 1955 ~ Later (I) mark introduced around 1955 
4. Duraglas
5. Non Swimsuit
6. 7 Bubble label
7. Initial condition with rust = 7.0
8. Overall current condition = 8.5
9. Minor ACL fading
10. Minor flea bites
11. No cracks or chips
*
Before Cleaning Pics ...

* 





I have never seen the *6J *mark but its likely some type of mold cavity number.
The style number is *94-G* 




*After Cleaning Pics ...


*


----------



## iggyworf

That is a nice 'shield' logo bottle Bob. I have never seen one from Bakersfield before. Not now but I might change my mind in the future about that one.


----------



## SODABOB

Merry Christmas

I'm heading out of town tomorrow and thought I'd set this up in advance ...
*
Pick the Winning Number ~ Win a Free ACL Book ~ Guidelines*

1. Starts on Christmas Day 
2. But only if no one post one or more of the items from my previous list
3. Open to all Members ~ Only one number per Member
4. Pick and Post a number between 1 and 100
5. Please keep an eye on the numbers already posted so as not to duplicate them
6. The Member who picks a number closest to the winning number (higher or lower) wins
7. However, in the event of a tie, the lower number wins
8. For example: 
....If the winning number is 50 and one member picks 49 and another member picks 51, the number 49 wins
9. Free shipping only applies to the continental United States
10. If the winning member lives in Canada or any other country outside the U.S., they would have to pay for postage
11. If you live in a foreign country and do not want to pay for postage, please do not participate
12. For example; Postage from Southern California to Canada is about $25.00
13. The 2002 ACL Book is pictured below and is like new in uncirculated condition
14. The winning number will be announced on New Year's Day 2019

I will monitor this as best I can, but otherwise have fun with it. 

Footnote: In the event I forgot some important aspect to this, I reserve the right to amend it as needed

Signed ...

Sodabob


----------



## iggyworf

Just adding another wooden crate to the mystery, Cambridge Mass.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-La...=item3b25b0f831:g:jV0AAOSw9hJbV86U:rk:21:pf:0


Free book for anybody entering Bob's contest!


----------



## shotdwn

My guess is the number 27.


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn said:


> My guess is the number 27.





shotdwn

Thanks for participating. Your number is acknowledged


----------



## nhpharm

My guess is 68


----------



## SODABOB

nhpharm said:


> My guess is 68




nhpharm

Thanks for playing. Your number is logged in.


----------



## yacorie

Thanks for the contest.  I’ll try for 11


----------



## SODABOB

yacorie said:


> Thanks for the contest.  I’ll try for 11




yacorie

You're welcome. Your number is entered.


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

I'm spending the holidays in Phoenix, Arizona and have already gone to some of the larger antique malls in search of anything 3-1-3 related but have been skunked so far. I have a few more malls to visit but doubtful that I'm going to find anything. But if I do, I will definitely share it.


----------



## iggyworf

Enjoy!!!


----------



## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks

Google "Brass Armadillo West Side Phoenix, Arizona" and you will be able to see the 50,000 sq ft Antique mall I will be going to on New Year's day. If they don't have something 3-1-3 related, then no one in the Phoenix area probably does. If I do find something there, I will post it after I get home. The Brass Armadillo is on Interstate 10 that connects Phoenix to Los Angeles and I'm hoping they have stuff that's of special interest to the thousands of Los Angeles travelers that visit the mall throughout the year.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

Here's a link to the Brass Armadillo I will be visiting. Notice they have numerous locations, including the Midwest. Be sure to click on the brief video ... 

https://www.brassarmadillo.com/phoenixwest/


----------



## SODABOB

*Happy New Year*

Reminder ...

Today is the last day to pick a number and possibly win the free acl book. As I mentioned earlier, I have already drawn the winning number and will announce the winner tomorrow. 

Hey, Rich

I know you already have an acl book and that you decided not to play, but its okay with me if you enter a number anyway. After all, this is your thread and no one will object if you participate. If you win and don't want the book you can sell it or give it to someone. 

By the way, I have several copies of the book available and if anyone wants to buy one outright the price is $50.00 which includes free shipping anywhere in the continental United States. 

Thanks again to everyone who participates and you will hear from me tomorrow when I announce the winner.


----------



## SODABOB

P.S.

I forgot to mention that the list I posted earlier with the five qualifying items for the free acl book is still in effect. So if any member finds and post any of those items today, it will cancel out the pick a number contest. Even though the likelihood of someone finding and posting one or more of those items seems slim at this time, I will honor it if they do. With that said, check out this Bakersfield crate that was described as being marked with a 39 for 1939. But because the 39 is not visible in this particular picture, and I only have the seller's description to rely on, it would not be considered a winner. Not to mention that the crate dates are somewhat questionable anyway. However, there is also the possibility that this Bakersfield crate is the real deal from 1939 and could be a helpful clue to the 3-1-3 mystery. The only bummer is, because of the angle the picture was taken, I can't say for certain if its an 8 bubble or a 7 bubble. 

What say you?  7 bubble or 8 bubble? I believe the described 39 is on the upper-right corner on the end panel?


----------



## shotdwn

It looks like a 7 bubble to me. It looks to have a single bubble under the 7up. The other area that could a bubble under there looks to me to just be a dark spot of wood.


----------



## SODABOB

shotdwn

I agree - I zoomed it in my photo file and it appears to be a 3-1-3 - But the bummer is seeing the 39 that's supposed to be stamped on it - I can't see it no matter what type of editing or zooming I try


----------



## SODABOB

Even though this photograph definitely shows the 3-1-3 bubble placement, and the truck is described as a 1940 Dodge, it would not be a winner because the picture itself might have been taken later than 1940. The description did not include a location nor a definite date. But I still consider it a helpful clue to the 3-1-3 mystery.


----------



## SODABOB

Correction ...

I just realized the bubble placement on the 1940 Dodge truck is 2-1-3 (6) and not 3-1-3 (7) so disregard it. I don't know how I missed seeing that before I posted it. And, no, I'm not going to start a new thread about 2-1-3 6 bubble 7up logos.


----------



## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> *Happy New Year*
> 
> Reminder ...
> 
> Today is the last day to pick a number and possibly win the free acl book. As I mentioned earlier, I have already drawn the winning number and will announce the winner tomorrow.
> 
> Hey, Rich
> 
> I know you already have an acl book and that you decided not to play, but its okay with me if you enter a number anyway. After all, this is your thread and no one will object if you participate. If you win and don't want the book you can sell it or give it to someone.
> 
> By the way, I have several copies of the book available and if anyone wants to buy one outright the price is $50.00 which includes free shipping anywhere in the continental United States.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who participates and you will hear from me tomorrow when I announce the winner.



Thanx bob, but I will leave the winning book to whoever enters and wins.
that crate looks like 3-1-3 to me also. I was thinking these other 3-1-3 crates I have found and posted pics somehow someway have to be related to the southern Ca 3-1-3 mystery. But finding that link will be a big task. i have found 3-1-3 bubble crates from West Barrington RI, Minot North Dakota and now Cambridge Mass. To go along with the LA, Bakersfield  and San Bernidino ones.

Happy New Year!


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## SODABOB

Hey, Rich

I just noticed the last Bakersfield crate I posted has *Inc. *on it. But the other ones don't. I wonder if the *Inc. *is enough of a clue to date the crate? 

Here's the Bakersfield crate from the original thread and the one I just found for comparison. Check 'em out ...


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## SODABOB

shotdwn said:


> My guess is the number 27.




The winning number is ...
*23*

Congratulations *shotdwn 

*Please send me a Personal Message with your name and address and I will ship your book A.S.A.P.  If you are not sure how to send a PM, just click on my name and you will see the option. 

Thanks again to everyone who participated. And don't forget I have more of the acl books available. If interested just send me a PM

Happy New Year


Bob


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## shotdwn

I PM my address to you. Hopefully I did it right.


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## SODABOB

shotdwn

Thanks

I got your PM and will mail your book tomorrow or Thursday at the latest.


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## yacorie

SODABOB said:


> The winning number is ...
> *23*
> 
> Congratulations *shotdwn
> 
> *Please send me a Personal Message with your name and address and I will ship your book A.S.A.P.  If you are not sure how to send a PM, just click on my name and you will see the option.
> 
> Thanks again to everyone who participated. And don't forget I have more of the acl books available. If interested just send me a PM
> 
> Happy New Year
> 
> 
> Bob



Congratulations Shotdown and thanks Sodabob for the opportunity.


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## shotdwn

Thank you yacorie. Thank you SODABOB for your generosity it is people like you that make this hobby great.


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## iggyworf

Congrats shotdwn!


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## shotdwn

Thanks iggyworf.


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## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Hey, Rich
> 
> I just noticed the last Bakersfield crate I posted has *Inc. *on it. But the other ones don't. I wonder if the *Inc. *is enough of a clue to date the crate?
> 
> Here's the Bakersfield crate from the original thread and the one I just found for comparison. Check 'em out ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 186422
> 
> 
> View attachment 186423



Bakersfield crate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-Vinta...h=item56be010772:g:oKAAAOSwxFVcLEm2:rk:1:pf:0


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## SODABOB

I already sent shotdwn a PM but wanted to let everyone know that I mailed his book today and that he should receive it by Monday, January 7, 2019


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## SODABOB

SODABOB said:


> Hey, Rich
> 
> I just noticed the last Bakersfield crate I posted has *Inc. *on it. But the other ones don't. I wonder if the *Inc. *is enough of a clue to date the crate?
> 
> Here's the Bakersfield crate from the original thread and the one I just found for comparison. Check 'em out ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 186422
> 
> 
> View attachment 186423



In response to my own question about the *Inc. *on the so-called 1939 Bakersfield crate, this is one of the 1939 newspaper articles I posted earlier ... 

[ The Bakersfield Californian ~ June 13, 1939 ]


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## SODABOB

I'm home now after spending the Holidays in Arizona and will tell you later about what I did and didn't find on my trip.


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## iggyworf

Hope you found some good stuff!


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## SODABOB

During the ten days I was in Arizona I ended up going to about a dozen antique malls in the Phoenix area and ...  

1. I did *not* find any 3-1-3 7up bottles or signs or anything else 3-1-3 related 

2. I did find and bought an amber Coca Cola bottle from Nashville. Tennessee. It was made by the Root Glass Company and marked on the heel with the number 406. I already researched it and discovered that Root first started making Coca Cola bottles in 1905. Starting in 1909 Root started marking all of their bottles with a date. My bottle does not have a date but does have the number 406 which was the number they used for all of their Nashville bottles. Hence, I have dated my bottle circa 1907. It is a hand blown (BIM) bottle and one of the earliest Crown closure Coca Cola bottles made. I paid $45.00 for it. 

Note: My camera is still packed away somewhere so I 'borrowed' these pics from an identical Nashville bottle currently on eBay. In fact, there are three amber Nashville bottles currently on eBay priced at $79.00 and $89.00

My bottle is in about the same condition as the one pictured here with a few pings and flea bites - I graded my bottle @ 8.5


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## SODABOB

Rich

I haven't given up the search yet for other 3-1-3 7up bottles and during the past couple of weeks I have been focusing on *any* 7up bottle made at the Owens-Illinois plants #23 and #24 from 1940 or earlier. Even though the bottles I have seen are not from Bakersfield, Los Angeles, or San Bernardino, every bottle I have seen from that time period was an 8 bubble bottle. My thinking is, if plants #23 and #24 made 8 bubble bottles between 1936 and 1940 for other cities like Portland, Oregon, Reno, Nevada, and other western United States 7up bottlers, then it seems likely to me that most if not all of the bottles they made prior to 1941 were also 8 bubble bottles. Hence, I'm still of the opinion that your 3-1-3 seven bubble bottles could very well be the first seven bubble bottles ever made. But to prove this we still need to find the bottles in question from 1940 or earlier. And lets not forget the early Bakersfield bottle that's been posted several times has an embossed neck logo.


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## SODABOB

Rich

While researching the "*Inc.*" factor I stumbled onto this San Bernardino bottle that has *Inc.* on the back. I apologize for being secretive about it, but it might turn out to be another nothing-burger and I don't want to jump-the-gun until I research it further. But I can tell you that the 3-1-3 San Bernardino bottle already posted does not have *Inc.* on it. Additionally, the attached newspaper snippet indicates that the San Bernardino Seven Up Bottling Company incorporated in 1938 ...

*
3-1-3 San Bernardino bottle

* 


*
Inc. San Bernardino bottle


*


*
The San Bernardino Daily Sun ~ October 28, 1938


*


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## SODABOB

P.S.

I forgot to mention the San Bernardino Inc. bottle has a Swimsuit label and not a Shield label


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## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

I can't recall if this has been fully established yet, but the following newspaper snippets should confirm that the San Bernardino Seven Up bottling plant was *​built* in ... 

*1937

*The San Bernardino Daily Sun ~ February 21, 1937 (Two columns)


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## SODABOB

I just found another 3-1-3 San Bernardino bottle - but its not the "Inc." bottle I'm still researching.

 Compare the two ...

The San Bernardino 3-1-3 that was posted earlier




The San Bernardino 3-1-3 that I just found


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## iggyworf

Bob that is an excellent coke bottle! Congrats on that one. I have been running into dead ends with anything I try to search for. Hopefully the 'Inc.' lead will turn into something.


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## SODABOB

Here's the eBay link to the San Bernardino *Inc. *bottle I was researching ...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/292747460350?ul_noapp=true

I found it by doing a random search on eBay. Originally it did not include any mention of a date nor a picture of the base, and still doesn't. I contacted the seller for the information and they sent me the base pic in an email. I don't know why they haven't added the info and pic to their listing, especially when you take into account they are asking $259.96 for what I consider to be a $5.00 bottle. Anyway, it turned out to be another dead-end because the bottle was made in 1952 and does not help all that much in our pursuit of solving the 3-1-3 mystery. As for the other 3-1-3 San Bernardino bottle I found, the seller has been contacted to see if its still available. As soon as they are heard from it will be posted.

Here are the pics of the so called San Bernardino *Inc. *bottle - or what I am now calling the over-priced dead-end bottle ... 

 




23 <(I)> 52 = Owens Illinois Plant #23 Los Angeles 1952 Duraglas


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## SODABOB

*Common Denominators *

Most of us have heard the story that goes something like this ...

"At some point someone in the Seven Up Company noticed that eight bubble bottle labels were out of sync with the brand name Seven Up and that it would be better if the bottle labels depicted seven bubbles instead of eight" 

Unless someone has evidence to the contrary, it appears the earliest use of seven bubbles with anything related to the Seven Up Company is the Bakersfield, California sign that was possibly conceived in 1938 and definitely erected in 1939. As far as the bottles themselves are concerned, iggy's 1941 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles are currently the earliest known and confirmed examples of seven bubble bottles. Of course, if any pre-1941 southern California 7up bottles are ever found it could change things. But as it stands now, 1939 seems to be the earliest date. As for the various 3-1-3 wood crates we've seen, I have put them on the back-burner for the time being until more substantial evidence is presented to explain what I consider a very confusing timeline regarding the so called date marks.  

Which takes me to the reason I started this commentary with the words "Common Denominators" and included the brief story about someone noticing eight bubbles vs. seven bubbles. We may never know for certain if the 8 bubbles vs. 7 bubbles story is true, but regardless of whether its true or not, they definitely changed their bottle labels for some reason. Assuming the story is true, we may never know who that "someone" was. But regardless if it was a janitor, secretary, or someone in management, the final decision to change the labels on millions of bottles surely came from the upper management somewhere along the chain of command. And because the change seems to have originated in southern California, the one individual who was in charge of that particular region at the time and would have been the major decision maker was none other than ... 

_*D. K. Washburn*_

Hence, he currently gets my vote as the person most likely to have suggested the change from 8 bubble to 7 bubble bottles and other related items. With that said, I am going to shift my focus entirely to Mr. Donald K Washburn and see if there is any hint or clue about him that will possibly point to him as being the "someone" in the changeover story. 

So, without further ado, Meet ...

*D. K. Washburn


*


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## SODABOB

The following is copy/pasted from one of Bill Lockhart's articles and will be the cornerstone I will be working from in my attempt to discover the who, what, where and when 7up bottle labels changed from 8 bubbles to 7 bubbles ...

"During 1938, someone noticed that eight bubbles did not match well with Seven-Up. As a result, the labels from 1938 on contained seven bubbles"


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## SODABOB

P.S. 

If Bill's research findings are accurate about the 1938 date, that eliminates Bakersfield as a contender because the Bakersfield bottling plant wasn't built until the Spring of 1939. Which switches the focus to Los Angeles or possibly San Bernardino who were both in operation during 1938. Another contender I will be focusing on is the Seven Up Bottling Company of San Francisco who built and opened a new bottling plant in 1938.


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## SODABOB

P.S. ~ P.S.

If this Bakersfield bottle with the embossed neck logo was actually bottled at the Bakersfield bottling plant and was not some type of "distributed" bottle from another location such as Los Angeles or San Bernardino, then the earliest it could possibly date to is 1939 or later


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## SODABOB

And, no, I haven't forgotten about our list of 1941 eight bubble bottles - which contradicts Bill Lockhart's claim about the change from 8 bubbles to 7 bubbles occurring in 1938. Bill's 7up article was written in 2007 for the Soda Fizz magazine and if you read the entire article you will see where he mentions variations and that his observations leave open exceptions to the rule. In other words, 1938 was the year that 7 bubble labels first appeared but that it took time for bottlers nationwide to switch from 8 bubble labels to 7 bubble labels. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the changeover was pretty much complete by 1944.

Here's the list again of the 1941 mostly 8 bubble bottles ...
* 

Los Angeles, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
San Bernardino, California = 7 Bubble (3-1-3) = ACL Neck
Clarksdale, Mississippi = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping - Louisville, Kentucky = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck
Aberdeen, South Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Houston, Texas (Amber) = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
St. Joseph, Missouri = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Lincoln, Nebraska = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Jamestown, North Dakota = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Reading / Lancaster, Pennsylvania = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
Epping/Louisville.Lexington Ky - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Iowa/7up Iowa Co. - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Bay City/Saginaw Mich - 8 bubble - ACL neck
Houston, Texas = Amber Stubby = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck = Duraglas
Joliet/Chicago = 8 Bubble = ACL Neck
No Location = 8 Bubble = Emb Neck*


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## SODABOB

In other-other words, according to Bill Lockhart there should be at least a few 7 bubble bottles from 1938. Which still leaves the door open for both Los Angeles and San Bernardino as possible contenders.


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## SODABOB

Dare I say I will give away another ACL book to the first member who finds and post good pictures of a confirmed 1938 seven bubble 7up bottle from *anywhere* in the United States? With the exception that you can't use any pics from any of Bill Lockhart's articles. But to tell you the truth, I don't recall him actually posting any pics of a confirmed 1938 bottle.  I'll double check some of his articles and see if he did!


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## SODABOB

I just checked Bill's pdf articles I keep on file and did not see any confirmed 1938 seven bubble bottles. But I did have this artist rendering of a 3-1-3 seven bubble bottle from a 1938 newspaper advertisement. Of course its not the real deal but it should give us some idea of what to look for ...


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## SODABOB

Rich

Don't panic - your 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles are still strong contenders for possibly being some of first seven bubble bottles - its just that there might be a few earlier examples out there from 1938-39 and 1940. Of course, finding them is a lot easier said than done.


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## SODABOB

Just for the record, here's Bill Lockhart's chart again where it indicates the existence of 1938 seven bubble bottles. I know Bill personally and I can assure you if he claims there are seven bubble bottles from 1938 that he or one of his group of researchers has actually seen examples of those bottles. They are sticklers about that and do not rely on 'maybes'


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## SODABOB

Hey, Rich

Check out this BAKERSFIELD bottle I just bought on eBay. Its not as early as I would have liked, but it will serve as a nice souvenir to remind me of the time I've spent on your thread. I especially like the back label, which according to Bill Lockhart was used between about 1938 and 1945. As you can see, its a 1944 with Duraglas. But what's weird about the 44 is that every 1944 7up I have seen has a 4. with a dot, but this one appears to have a double-digit 44. Speaking of which, the 4 on the right looks kind of odd and it might not be a 4 at all but some type of an anomaly. I also see what appears to be a dot? But whatever it is, I will know better after it arrives in about a week. If nothing else it at least tells us that Bakersfield used 2-2-3 seven bubble bottles by 1944. After it arrives I will take some pics and be able to tell you more about it. 








From one of Bill Lockhart's Articles


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## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Rich
> 
> Don't panic - your 3-1-3 Los Angeles bottles are still strong contenders for possibly being some of first seven bubble bottles - its just that there might be a few earlier examples out there from 1938-39 and 1940. Of course, finding them is a lot easier said than done.



Good work Bob. It would be very cool if my bottles are the first 7 bubble bottles. But if not, oh well, I will just have to find the other ones. lol


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## iggyworf

SODABOB said:


> Just for the record, here's Bill Lockhart's chart again where it indicates the existence of 1938 seven bubble bottles. I know Bill personally and I can assure you if he claims there are seven bubble bottles from 1938 that he or one of his group of researchers has actually seen examples of those bottles. They are sticklers about that and do not rely on 'maybes'
> 
> View attachment 186530





I often go back to this chart also. But it does need some revisions I think. Regarding the 8 bubble story, but that is another thread. I have found 8 bubbles up to 1946. I have slowly been researching this and might have a new thread on it hopefully soon.


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## SODABOB

Rich

Thanks

The new thread sounds good. Maybe you can eliminate / fill in some of the ??? and *** on Bill's chart. 

The seller I bought the Bakersfield bottle from lives in northern California and they are going to check their inventory and see if they have any other early California 7up bottles. I gave them a crash course on how to date them which they were confused about. If they come up with anything out of the ordinary that I think you might want, I will let you know. That is, except for anything from Bakersfield. Now that I have two bottles from Bakersfield I thought I'd try to find other examples to fill in the gaps. As it stands now I have the 1955 I bought a while back and the 1944 I bought today. So I have a lot of searching to do if I hope to find any other bottles between 1939 and 1955. I'm not interested in anything later than 1955.


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## SODABOB

Both of these bottles are currently on eBay @ $29.95 each and by the same seller. I exchanged several emails with them and asked if they could determine the bubble count. They are in extremely poor condition but the seller was able to make out the 'ghost' remains of 8 bubbles on both bottles. I explained to them that because of the poor condition they would probably have a difficult time getting $29.95 for them, so I offered $5.00 for each, which they declined. But that's okay because I really didn't want them all that much anyway and by way of the emails I found out pretty much everything I wanted to. Which is that both of the Owens Illinois plants in Los Angeles, namely plants #23 and #24 were producing 8 bubble labels and embossed neck logos when they were made. 

1. Arcadia "Best Ever" bottle = 23 <(I)> 8  (The 3 is difficult to see but the seller said it was a 3)

2. Los Angeles bottle = 24 <(I)> 35 or 36 (The seller wasn't sure if the last number was a 5 or a 6) 

If nothing else, it at least tells us that Owens Illinois 7up bottles from the Los Angeles area between about 1935-36 and 1938 had 8 bubble labels with embossed necks. Which leads me to think that the change from 8 bubbles to 7 bubbles occurred sometime during or after 1938. If correct, that leaves late 1938 to sometime in 1941 when the changeover occurred. (At least in the Los Angeles area)

Arcadia / Best Ever Bottling

 

 

Los Angeles



Owens Illinois plant #24 closed in 1937


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## iggyworf

Kep I agree. I seen those bottles also, but thought they were too far gone.


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## SODABOB

I'm still poking around looking for stuff but not finding much. Although I did go back to this picture from Julian Toulouse's *1939* article about ACL bottles and was curious about the 7up bottle it shows. At a glance it looks like a 2-2-3 seven bubble bottle with an embossed neck. But I'm not sure and thought I'd share it to see what y'all thought about it. If it is a seven bubble bottle, then it will be the first I've seen from 1939. I tried to enhance the second image, but not sure it helps all that much. Maybe someone who sees this has better editing-enhancing skills than I do and can enlarge and/or clean it up enough to make out the bubble placement ...


----------



## SODABOB

Here's the entire 1939 Toulouse article for those who have never read it. If necessary, save and zoom to read ...


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## 7up lady fan

Hey Bob, just reading your chat here on bottles and crates from Bakersfield back in the early 40's and I have this 7up bottle from Bakersfield that I've attached dated 1948. It shows the Fresh Up in the The Fresh Up Drink quote as being bolded, italicized, and underlined on the back label. Just curious if you ever seen this before, thanks Bob.

Sorry for the sideway pictures, New to the site and have to figure how to work it here.


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## Jbeas31

7up lady fan, 

Your Bakersfield, CA bottle should also have the ingredient Lithium listed instead of  Lithia that appears on most swimsuit bottles after 1940. 
Unsure of the reasoning behind this change for 1948. 
I have a bottle from New Orleans with same letter styling.


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## SODABOB

7up lady fan

Thanks for sharing -- Do you have a pic of the front of your bottle? -- The main thing we have been looking for are the 3-1-3 bubbles

Bob


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## 7up lady fan

Thanks for responding back Bob. Yeah my Bakersfield bottle has the 2-2-3 format unlike the hard to find 3-1-3 and has the word lithium instead of lithia on the back. I saw hundreds of swimsuit bottles back in the seventies and only saw this Fresh Up variation once which is the Bakersfield bottle that I own. Still think our bold, italicized, underlined bottle that we own is kinda rare. Haven't seen it on ebay or anywhere else since I've started to collect these again.


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## iggyworf

That's a nice bottle. I don't have one like that in my collection.


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## 7up lady fan

Here's a straightened out version of my bottle.


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## Eric

Found this clock online... Then I noticed the 3-1-3 bubbles so I thought I'd post it here... Now I'm looking for Tom Joyce bottles,
8 bubble bottles and now 3-1-3 bottles... the collecting never ends! (thank goodness) Ha


----------

