# Canadian LYMAN druggist/pharmacy/medicine bottle ?



## hemihampton (Aug 19, 2016)

Anybody have any information about this one ? Say's Lyman Sons & Co. Montreal. Found in a 1880's Michigan Privy recently. Is it tough o
r common? LEON.


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## CanadianBottles (Aug 20, 2016)

There's some information on the company in French here http://bouteillesduquebec.ca/publicites/lyman_sons_co.htm  They seem to have been a pretty prolific company, but that site doesn't have any examples of bottles from the company.  I'm fairly certain it's not common, Montreal pharmacy bottles in general aren't too easy to find because the Montreal dump from that era has never been dug at all and it seems like privy digging isn't as popular in Canada as in the US.


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## hemihampton (Aug 20, 2016)

Thanks for the link. Interesting. Says the Lyman & Son's was started in 1879. I figure the bottle from around 1880's since everything else seemed to be from late 1870's to early 1880's  (guesstimate) depending on how long they used this privy. I wonder what it's worth? LEON.


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## andy volkerts (Aug 20, 2016)

I think this is a related product from maybe later about 1885-90  Northrop and Lymans Dyspeptic cure. 8 3/4" aqua, applied top. very rare cure worth about   $145.00.....Andy


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## Robby Raccoon (Aug 20, 2016)

Andy,  "cure" makes a bottle more desirable. To get an accurate estimate, it was to be an identical item in extremely similar condition. Multiple sold in the same close range of price tells you better, as two bidders can drive an item up high. 

Google shows them around in 1880 and 1908, which is a long time. 
https://www.google.com/search?q="Ly...hUKEwil3-_QydDOAhWMwiYKHeHUDvYQ_AUIBygA&dpr=1


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## hemihampton (Aug 20, 2016)

andy volkerts said:


> I think this is a related product from maybe later about 1885-90  Northrop and Lymans Dyspeptic cure. 8 3/4" aqua, applied top. very rare cure worth about   $145.00.....Andy





Andy, It's a very small bottle, only 3 1/2" tall. Clear in color. LEON.


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## hemihampton (Aug 20, 2016)

Spirit Bear said:


> Andy,  "cure" makes a bottle more desirable. To get an accurate estimate, it was to be an identical item in extremely similar condition. Multiple sold in the same close range of price tells you better, as two bidders can drive an item up high.
> 
> Google shows them around in 1880 and 1908, which is a long time.
> https://www.google.com/search?q="Ly...hUKEwil3-_QydDOAhWMwiYKHeHUDvYQ_AUIBygA&dpr=1




The other link said it operated as that name from 1879-1908. LEON.


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## andy volkerts (Aug 20, 2016)

The "cure" bottle that I mentioned resides in my cure collection, and was purchased from a private collector for that price mentioned, I have seen one go for more on flea-bay several yrs ago, I would think your small bottle would be worth about 30 or so dollars, as anything from this co is fairly rare, I have never seen a pharmacy type bottle as yours is for sale anywhere. I would think that some of their bottles actually may be common, due to the long operating time, but they sure don't come up for sale much.......Andy


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## hemihampton (Aug 20, 2016)

OK, Thanks for the info. LEON.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 20, 2016)

Lyman, Sons & Co. (1879-1908) was one firm name in a chain of continuous businesses established by the Lyman family around 1800 (some sources put the founding in 1800, other in the late 1790s and yet others in 1808). Anyhow, the firm name Lyman, Sons & Co. reflects a re-organization of the business a year after the death of company mover and shaker Benjamin Lyman. The company was Canada's foremost wholesale drug firms. The Lymans also operated what was effective a branch of their Montreal business in Toronto. The only connection between Lyman, Sons & Co. and Toronto's Northrop & Lyman (patent medicines) was that both Lymans were very distant cousins through descent from an English settler in the American colonies in the 1600s. The two firms were only connected by an infinitesimal degree of shared genetic material.

As to the OP's bottle, it's a difficult one to find, but quite ironically because of the nature and size of the company. As Canada's largest wholesale druggists who seldom ventured into producing "directly for sale" preparations, the company wasn't much concerned with maintaining a public brand image; it didn't have to. Rather, Lymans focussed on maintaining reputation with the pharmaceutical and related trades by supplying chemicals, drugs, etc. for use in producing retail products. Embossed bottles were an unnecessary extra expense. This translates into lots and lots of paper-label-only bottles from Lymans, making embossed examples harder to find. My best guess is that the OP's bottle was for a one-off type of medicine or chemical compound that was intended for retail sale. I concur with an 1880s attribution. I also imagine that the bottle got to Michigan in the hands of a private individual travelling from Canada (likely Ontario) to that state, as American tariff barriers made it difficult for Lyman, Sons & Co. to export to the U.S.


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## hemihampton (Aug 21, 2016)

mctaggart, Thanks for the info. LEON.


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## RCO (Aug 21, 2016)

its a neat bottle and a good find , I haven't really seen one before or know anything more about it . I doubt it was sold just in Montreal , its was likely sold in other Canadian cities at that time , I do agree its likely a Canadian travel brought it to Michigan somehow


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## CanadianBottles (Aug 21, 2016)

mctaggart67 said:


> Lyman, Sons & Co. (1879-1908) was one firm name in a chain of continuous businesses established by the Lyman family around 1800 (some sources put the founding in 1800, other in the late 1790s and yet others in 1808). Anyhow, the firm name Lyman, Sons & Co. reflects a re-organization of the business a year after the death of company mover and shaker Benjamin Lyman. The company was Canada's foremost wholesale drug firms. The Lymans also operated what was effective a branch of their Montreal business in Toronto. The only connection between Lyman, Sons & Co. and Toronto's Northrop & Lyman (patent medicines) was that both Lymans were very distant cousins through descent from an English settler in the American colonies in the 1600s. The two firms were only connected by an infinitesimal degree of shared genetic material.
> 
> As to the OP's bottle, it's a difficult one to find, but quite ironically because of the nature and size of the company. As Canada's largest wholesale druggists who seldom ventured into producing "directly for sale" preparations, the company wasn't much concerned with maintaining a public brand image; it didn't have to. Rather, Lymans focussed on maintaining reputation with the pharmaceutical and related trades by supplying chemicals, drugs, etc. for use in producing retail products. Embossed bottles were an unnecessary extra expense. This translates into lots and lots of paper-label-only bottles from Lymans, making embossed examples harder to find. My best guess is that the OP's bottle was for a one-off type of medicine or chemical compound that was intended for retail sale. I concur with an 1880s attribution. I also imagine that the bottle got to Michigan in the hands of a private individual travelling from Canada (likely Ontario) to that state, as American tariff barriers made it difficult for Lyman, Sons & Co. to export to the U.S.



Looks like they produced a fair amount of patent medicines in the early-mid 1880's, I'm surprised that I've never seen one of these before anywhere else if they were distributed nationally.  They must not have focused too heavily on patent medicines.

As for value, I'm not sure but probably not all that much.  I've never gotten around to going to the Montreal bottle show but I expect the Montreal bottle market is similar to the Ottawa one and their drug store bottles are in the 5-10 dollar range in dug condition.  Since this is from a large company and not technically a real drug store bottle, that wouldn't help things value-wise.  I think the bottles that say Montreal but were intended for a national market generally aren't regarded as highly by Montreal collectors as bottles actually intended for use in Montreal.


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## hemihampton (Aug 21, 2016)

Maybe I'll throw on ebay & see what it gets. I don't collect Canadian bottles. LEON.


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## andy volkerts (Aug 22, 2016)

If anybody knows about Canadian bottles it would be mctaggart67, thanks for the info, as I was not sure if it was the same co or not.......Andy


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## hemihampton (Aug 22, 2016)

Close up of the pic I posted earlier. Double click pic to super size. LEON
.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 22, 2016)

Just to clarify some of what I posted above. Lyman, Sons & Co.'s line of products intended for the retail market constituted a small percentage of the firm's overall business. Most of what I've seen in this vein is paper-label only. That's not to say that Lymans didn't make patent medicines and similar -- they did -- and the OP's bottle is almost certainly an example from this sort of product. I put OP's bottle in the ironic context of being a relatively rare example of its kind from a large company when we usually find such as really common (think Wyeth, for example).


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 22, 2016)

Andy, thanks for your kind words.

Leon, any chance of giving collectors of Canadian medicine bottles at this forum a shot at the bottle?


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## CanadianBottles (Aug 23, 2016)

mctaggart67 said:


> View attachment 174204
> 
> Here's an exterior view of Lyman, Sons & Co., ca. 1880.



That building is still there today, they've added two more storeys onto the buildings on the left though. https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.5040...DHWrl2I45vW2mbx1sALw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


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## 143Tallboy (Aug 23, 2016)

Hey Glen - I have a Lyman Montreal embossed bottle. I knew they must be relatively scarce because I'd never seen one before. I'll have to dig it out and post a picture. I think it's got a crack but it only cost me $1 at a flea market a few years back.


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## hemihampton (Aug 23, 2016)

mctaggart67 said:


> Andy, thanks for your kind words.
> 
> Leon, any chance of giving collectors of Canadian medicine bottles at this forum a shot at the bottle?



I would if I felt confident I knew what it was worth but I have no clue, Some say rare, some say probably not so rare, some say $30 bottle some say $5-$10 bottle. I can't put a price on something I know nothing about & don't want to take a low ball price not knowing any better. LEON.


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## Robby Raccoon (Aug 23, 2016)

Try e-Bay. I just made an account there.


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## hemihampton (Aug 23, 2016)

Spirit Bear said:


> Try e-Bay. I just made an account there.




I've had a Account with ebay since 1999. LEON.


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## Robby Raccoon (Aug 24, 2016)

You'll find the value with a good, strong listing, many pics, and a few bidders. See what it does.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 24, 2016)

Oh well, not so sure why I bother sometimes sharing what I know to help out others.


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## nhpharm (Aug 24, 2016)

Glen,

I always appreciate your insight on this site!  I've still got the cobalt Robinson and if I decide to sell it you'll be the first to know!


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## andy volkerts (Aug 24, 2016)

Hemihampton, Try posting it on here for a few days as a give me your best offer format, and what can you lose?? no fees, or costs, and if you feel the offers are not enough, then sell it on flea-bay


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

That would just piss people off even more, to offer in here & then list on ebay. When someone has no clue what something is worth let ebay tell you what it's worth? What's wrong with that. It might get $10 or $200, I have no idea. I know nothing about Canadian bottles. LEON.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 25, 2016)

So much for common regard for one another and building up a sharing community. What pisses me off, Leon, is that your post above can be read to insinuate that somebody on this forum, such as myself, who's interested in the bottle would try to take advantage of you. As you say, "I would if I felt confident I knew what it was worth but I have no clue, Some say rare, some say probably not so rare, some say $30 bottle some say $5-$10 bottle. I can't put a price on something I know nothing about & don't want to take a low ball price not knowing any better." I sincerely hope that wasn't an intentional shot at me, a potential lowballer in your mind. Regardless, so much for trust, Leon, and thanks for what I take as, at the very least, an indirect vote of non-confidence in me. Again, why should I bother sharing information?

I've collected and researched Canadian medicine and poison bottles for around 35 years now. I've got boxes of research notes, 100,000s of lines of info in Excel spreadsheets, and I've written a number of books relating to collecting Ontario bottles (google my full name, "Glen C. Phillips" and you'll see). I've freely shared important information with legions. I don't expect those people to be beholden to me, but it is nice to receive positive regard in return, ranging from a prompt and genuine thanks to a chance given to me make an offer on a bottle.

Imagine how I feel, when I give you valuable information and then you say thanks in passing and then emphasize how you're going to sell the bottle publicly. No doubt, you'll take the info I've given you and use it to pump up the authority of your Ebay description. I can't stop you from doing that, of course -- though I suggest you not use my own words, word for word -- but please don't seem mystified when I object to what I see as shabby treatment of me from you. Yet again, why should I bother sharing information?

Okay, I get that I'd have a chance at the bottle if listed on Ebay, but then I'd have to pay an extra $20-$25 for Ebay's Global Shipping and you'd lose on Ebay and PayPal fees. My guess is that it's a $10 to $20 bottle or maybe $35-$50 at best if you're lucky enough to get two anxious collectors with a bit more to spend. But I'm not telling you anything you surely don't know.

What you don't know relates to longer term effects. As you state, you don't know much about Canadian bottles. Given that you dig a great deal in Detroit and other wonderful parts of Michigan, it's reasonable to think that you'll find more interesting Canadian stuff at some point, on account of Michigan's and Ontario's shared border and all the historical movement of people back and forth across it. Wouldn't you really want to forge and maintain strong relationships with collectors who could give you important and valuable information when you need it in future?

Forest, trees. Short-term gain, long-term benefit. Getting something, but not giving back. The choices are yours.

As to choices, here's mine. I'm not so sure I'd even want the bottle now. It's got so much negative energy attached to it and I don't collect that.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 25, 2016)

Thanks, Brandon, on both counts. Makes being here worthwhile, again on both counts!


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## RCO (Aug 25, 2016)

its a neat bottle but I don't think it will go for a lot on ebay , the seller is forgetting 1 Canadian dollar is only worth 77 cents American , its like the worst time to try and sell in American dollars on ebay to Canadians , cause the American dollar is worth so much more making purchases unaffordable , a Canadian buyer is going to have this in mind and won't let the bidding go up that high knowing they'll have to pay in American dollars .


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

I guess for now on when I dig bottles I don't post my finds or let anybody know what I've found if create's controversy.  I got many beer cans I sell on ebay & I won't usually waste my time selling any on ebay if worth less then $10. If I knew this was a $10 bottle I would't waste my time selling on ebay. I got lots of common bottles I don't collect but keep myself & don't bother selling. LEON.


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

mctaggart67 said:


> So much for common regard for one another and building up a sharing community. What pisses me off, Leon, is that your post above can be read to insinuate that somebody on this forum, such as myself, who's interested in the bottle would try to take advantage of you. As you say, "I would if I felt confident I knew what it was worth but I have no clue, Some say rare, some say probably not so rare, some say $30 bottle some say $5-$10 bottle. I can't put a price on something I know nothing about & don't want to take a low ball price not knowing any better." I sincerely hope that wasn't an intentional shot at me, a potential lowballer in your mind. Regardless, so much for trust, Leon, and thanks for what I take as, at the very least, an indirect vote of non-confidence in me. Again, why should I bother sharing information?
> 
> I've collected and researched Canadian medicine and poison bottles for around 35 years now. I've got boxes of research notes, 100,000s of lines of info in Excel spreadsheets, and I've written a number of books relating to collecting Ontario bottles (google my full name, "Glen C. Phillips" and you'll see). I've freely shared important information with legions. I don't expect those people to be beholden to me, but it is nice to receive positive regard in return, ranging from a prompt and genuine thanks to a chance given to me make an offer on a bottle.
> 
> ...




I dont really know you or dealt with you before or know your reputation. I'm not trying to insult you or anybody in here & appreciate your information. Never sold anything in here to anybody that I can remember. I'm hesitant to sell because I had a bad experiance when I first came in this site like 8 years ago. LEON.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 25, 2016)

Well, you did insult me and then I'm doubly insulted because you can't even offer a direct apology after I initially point out that insult. It's not your posts, in and of themselves, which cause controversy. Rather, it's your one-way approach to matters in this thread which has stirred things up for me. I shared collecting and historical information with you and you return the favour with words of mistrust of me. That's hardly classy. That you can't directly apologize and even continue to indirectly question my ethics is even harder to take.

Interesting that you've not sold to anybody on this forum since your first year on here. Hmmm, and yet during the same time people have been feeding you plenty of information. I truly hope that you're not on this forum just to get and not give back. But if so, it's your choice to build such a one-way street that way, but I don't think it jives with the community spirit which nourishes this forum. That's a shame, really. You know how much joy it is to acquire a wonderful new bottle for yourself. That comes though in so, so many of your posts, and makes them fun to read. If you can't understand how others take the same joy in acquisition, then that's an even greater shame!


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

A few years ago I had a well known member in here found a cone top beer can. I told him all the info I knew about it & told him I was Interested in buying from him. He said make a offer. I offered $100 which I thought was Fair. He said NO, I think I'll just throw on ebay & try my luck their. Do you know what my reaction was? Did I get all hostile & pissed off & mad. NO, I said OK & Good Luck. I watched it on ebay & was going to snipe at last second but lost track of it & Time. So I missed out. Ends up it only got $70 something, much less then my offer. Such a different reaction to the same situation. Why is that? And I never got a offer from taggart or said I would sell. Only thing I said was MAYBE I'd throw on ebay.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 25, 2016)

hemihampton said:


> A few years ago I had a well known member in here found a cone top beer can. I told him all the info I knew about it & told him I was Interested in buying from him. He said make a offer. I offered $100 which I thought was Fair. He said NO, I think I'll just throw on ebay & try my luck their. Do you know what my reaction was? Did I get all hostile & pissed off & mad. NO, I said OK & Good Luck. I watched it on ebay & was going to snipe at last second but lost track of it & Time. So I missed out. Ends up it only got $70 something, much less then my offer. Such a different reaction to the same situation. Why is that? And I never got a offer from taggart or said I would sell. Only thing I said was MAYBE I'd throw on ebay.



Sorry, but I'm not interested in defending myself any further, since such is pointless given our distinctly different views of what's going on here in this thread and how we view other collectors. As to me not offering you anything, I never got the chance or, more accurately speaking, an invitation from you to make an offer upon my asking if collectors of Canadian medicines could have a shot at the bottle. And by that, I was opening up matters for potential negotiations. Perhaps you missed that posting? Anyhow, I was opening up negotiations not because the bottle's so valuable that I saw an opportunity to rip somebody off, but because it fits a certain part in the history of Canada's medicine industry. For me, one of the joys of collecting is the historical context of pieces, and this trumps the money game for me. As to that money game, I'm not very interested in paying more to Ebay's Global Shipping Program nonsense than the bottle's worth. 

Anyhow, this has gone on long enough, so I'm done.

In closing, I think it's best that we just ignore each other. So much for community!


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

When I said low ball offer I did not specically mean you but anybody in here as that has happened in the past. I offer what ever info I know if I can & if you read my post you'd know that. Like a few months ago when a guy asked about his 1848 Cobalt Blue Knickerbocker bottle. If I remember right I was the only guy that gave him any good info & another guy offered to buy it for $200 & instead he threw on ebay for $500 opening bid & got it. I posted about another Canadian bottle I dug in here like 6 months ago. Got the impression it was a $10 bottle maybe & never threw on ebay because of that & decided to keep. All my bottlles have some sentimental value & if a bottle is only worth maybe $20 or $30 or less I rather keep it for sentimental value. If a Sentimental bottlle I dug but don't really collect has more value I may consider selling. The only reason I said I'd sell on ebay was after one guy said common $5-$10 bottle. That made me want to throw on ebay just to see if I could get more then $10 & prove him wrong. Anyways, if you felt like I was specifically insulting you I was not & if you think I was I'm sorry for Insulting you. LEON.


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## hemihampton (Aug 25, 2016)

mctaggart67 said:


> Sorry, but I'm not interested in defending myself any further, since such is pointless given our distinctly different views of what's going on here in this thread and how we view other collectors. As to me not offering you anything, I never got the chance or, more accurately speaking, an invitation from you to make an offer upon my asking if collectors of Canadian medicines could have a shot at the bottle. And by that, I was opening up matters for potential negotiations. Perhaps you missed that posting? Anyhow, I was opening up negotiations not because the bottle's so valuable that I saw an opportunity to rip somebody off, but because it fits a certain part in the history of Canada's medicine industry. For me, one of the joys of collecting is the historical context of pieces, and this trumps the money game for me. As to that money game, I'm not very interested in paying more to Ebay's Global Shipping Program nonsense than the bottle's worth.
> 
> Anyhow, this has gone on long enough, so I'm done.
> 
> In closing, I think it's best that we just ignore each other. So much for community!




OK, So what If I offer you the bottle for free, you can have it for your collection, I'd like to see it go to a good nice Canadian home. I really don't care about the money. I dig more for fun & helping others. And if you'd appreciate the bottle more then anybody else you can have it. Just pay for shipping & it's yours. Let me know? THANKS, LEON.


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## hemihampton (Aug 26, 2016)

Well Taggert was in here a couple of times after my last post to offer for free & he did not respond. I guess he's not Interested in it. I guess I'll keep the bottle. was not all that Interested in selling anyways. I just wanted to know if it was rare or common & value but nobody really seem to have a good answer for that. I tried to apologize & make things right.


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## mctaggart67 (Aug 27, 2016)

Apology accepted, Leon. And my apologies for my heat towards you.


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## hemihampton (Aug 27, 2016)

Ok, thanks, leon.


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