# Early VERNOR'S crown top



## georgeoj (Sep 8, 2012)

These are scarce even here in southern Michigan. I was at a local auction to bid on jars when it showed up and asked me to take it home. The circle and symbol are duplicated on the base. No damage beyond light case wear on the lower letters.
 George


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 8, 2012)

georgeoj ~

 Cool Vernor's bottle. I've never seen one that was embossed only. Have you been able to date it? If not, there might be a makers mark or other information on the base that will be indicators. I know Vernor's has been around for a long, long time and might even be America's oldest continuious brand of soda pop / ginger ale. The crown closure was invented in 1892 by William Painter, but the earliest known example of a crown is 1895. I can't tell from your picture if the bottle is machine made or not, but it looks pretty dang old to me. 

 Please let us know if there are any numbers or symbols on it. I'm really curious to know how old it might be. In the meantime, here is a snippet of information regarding Vernor's ...

 Thanks.

 SPB

 Vernor opened a drugstore of his own on Woodward Avenue, at the corner of Clifford Street and sold his ginger ale at its soda fountain. According to the 1911 trademark application on "Vernor's" as a name for ginger ale and extract, Vernors entered commerce in 1880. City by city, Vernor sold bottling franchises, with operators of those franchises required to strictly adhere to the recipe. In 1896, Vernor closed his drugstore and opened a soda fountain closer to the city center, on Woodward Avenue south of Jefferson Avenue, near the ferry docks on the Detroit River to concentrate on the ginger ale business alone. Initially, Vernors was only sold via soda fountain franchises. The early Vernors soda fountains featured ornate plaster, lighting and ironwork featuring a "V" design, examples of which still exist, such as at the Halo Burger restaurant in Flint, Michigan. Later Vernors was bottled for home consumption.

 [ Not my collection and don't recall where I got the picture. It was in my photo files ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 8, 2012)

This link shows a bottle similar to yours which is dated 1906 ...

 http://home.comcast.net/~blizzard3/vernors/vernors.htm


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 8, 2012)

"Bottled" reference from the link ... Sometime during or after 1896

 In fact, it would not be until 1896 that enough business was being generated from the sale of ginger ale that Mr. Vernor was able to close his drug store. Mr. Vernor opened a small plant at the foot of Woodward Avenue just a few doors down from his old drug store. It was here that Mr. Vernor, along with his nineteen-year-old son, James Vernor II, (the companies only employee) blended, aged, bottled, and distributed Vernor's Ginger Ale.


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## madman (Sep 8, 2012)

NICE BOTTLE DIDNT KNOW THEY WERE SCARCE  IVE GOT ONE AS WELL


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## georgeoj (Sep 8, 2012)

SPB, 
 There are not any markings to indicate either the date or the maker. The base has no other markings beyond those in the front circle. The reverse heel has: THIS BOTTLE/CONTAINS 10 OZS.
 The bottle is machine made. Since the front embossing does look similar to the stopper version, I would think that this would be the next in line.
 George


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## epackage (Sep 8, 2012)

This is the second one posted today, how's that for a coink-e-dink??


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## epackage (Sep 8, 2012)

Was there more than one George, this one just posted today was also picked up at an auction...

https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Vernors-Bottle/m-547196/tm.htm


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## georgeoj (Sep 9, 2012)

There was only the one at the auction that I attended. I have noticed this type of co-incidence many times. Bottles or jars that are scarce, or even vary rare, sometimes show up in twos or threes within days of each other. These bottles, while scarce, do show up. They are normally in poor condition. I have passed on two in the last year because they were damaged.
 George


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## celerycola (Sep 9, 2012)

I see this style and other Vernors embossed bottles regularly at shows and shops from Ohio to Virginia. Surprised they are scarce in Michigan.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

Just for the fun of it, I intend to do some research and see if I can determine exacly when Vernor's was first bottled and hopefully find a picture of one of the bottles. Based on the information below, it appears that 1898 is a very possible date, or thereabouts. To assist in my research, I just purchased the book pictured below, which should arrive in about a week. Notice on the cover the variety of bottles pictured, and especially the bottle in the center that looks like the one being discussed here. But whether the one on the cover was Vernor's first bottle or not, still remains to be seen. As a side note, I realize now that I should have asked first to see if anyone has a copy of the book before I ordered it and whether or not it contains the bottling information I seek. But irregardless, it will make a nice addition to my growing library of soda pop books.

 SPB

 http://www.angelfire.com/tn/traderz/vernors.html

 http://www.drpeppersnapplegroup.com/brands/vernors/

 A soda fountain owner who wrote to Vernor in 1898 noted that the ginger soda had acquired an enthusiastic following in his city. "Its purity, delicacy of flavor and great refreshing powers have been testified to by thousands of our soda customers," the bottler wrote. In time, The Vernors Company would open a landmark bottling operation in downtown Detroit to handle its expanding business. This riverfront business became a favorite stopping place for locals and tourists alike in the 1940s. It was here one could sip a fresh Vernors for only a nickel and watch as it was being produced.


 http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2011/11/soda-the-dubious-history-and-great-flavor-of-vernors-ginger-ale.html

 The first cola syrups showed up around 1881, with Coca-Cola entering the market in 1886. A dozen years later, Pepsi made its debut, while the following year, glass bottle manufacturing became standardized and became the container of choice for the next 60 years until aluminum cans were invented. These were heady times indeed for the soft drink lover.


 A Good Vernor's Book. Which I do not have, but available on ebay and elsewhere:

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vernors-Ginger-Ale-Mi-Wunderlich-Keith-EDT-/150769942722?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item231a96c0c2

 Publisher's Note:

 Vernor's Ginger Ale has sparkling fizz, a unique taste, and a history that goes back before Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Hires, or Moxie. Upon returning from the Civil War in 1866, James Vernor opened a pharmacy in Detroit. He also opened a barrel of ginger ale extract he had created before the war. He discovered the four years of aging had mellowed the taste to perfection. A new "deliciously different" flavor had been created, and Vernor's Ginger Ale was born. From a small drugstore in Detroit to a product enjoyed across America and Canada, Vernor's is a success story. Vernor's is the story of a small back-room product turned into a highly successful brand. At over 140 years old, Vernor's is America's oldest continuously produced soft drink. Vernor's Ginger Ale takes readers on a journey from pharmacy to factory, from entrepreneur to franchised corporation.

 The Book I Ordered:

 http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-vernors-story-lawrence-l-rouch/1112278423

 Overview:

 Amply illustrated, The Vernor's Story â€” From Gnomes to Now captures the spirit and genius of the people who transformed Vernors into an iconic American soft drink that has spanned two centuries of shifting public taste. With over seventy photographs depicting the history of the company, The Vernor's Story is an insider's look at early operations, as well as the firm's famous marketing blitz, featuring Vernor's distinctive green and gold packaging and its engaging gnome.

 [ The book I ordered for $4.70+. Note the bottle pictured in the center ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

1919 article which hints at 1896 as to when Vernor's first started bottling. Scroll back to page 140 where the article begins ...

 http://books.google.com/books?id=IYpNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=vernor's+ginger+ale+bottle&source=bl&ots=Fq4zAJ0-xl&sig=sbE1oxwBFVUKzAsLOWOkyeMUXt8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mLpMUKTCHPPryAHwz4GQAQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=vernor's%20ginger%20ale%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

Here's another book I might purchase eventually where I found the following ...

 "The first bottles carried an insignia that superimposed the letters VGA (for Vernor's Ginger Ale) on top of each other."

 I scrolled through the pages it showed but did not find a specific date yet. But I have to believe it is mentioned somewhere in the book.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=XPdI6oTo1NEC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=vernor's+bottles+ginger+ale&source=bl&ots=j4WXUpA3n-&sig=FKw8K_loJzCR70VWZx8Spr5AUNg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4MJMUJvlMuSJ2AWProHQCw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=vernor's%20bottles%20ginger%20ale&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

Some of you may already realize this, but for those who don't, the reason I am making so much fuss over Vernor's first bottle is due to my continuing research in trying to determine which of the major brands was the first to use a "Crown" closure on their bottles? At one point I thought it might have been Moxie, but was never able to confirm it. Now I'm thinking it might be Vernor's. Thus, all the fuss.

 So far the earliest known and confirmed crown closure on a soda bottle is the 1895 Murdock & Freeman pictured below. This bottle was first brought to our attention by member Sam_MaineBottles in a thread I started back in 2010. The following link will take you to page one of that thread, with Sam_MaineBottle's contrubution starting on Page 4 / Post #61. Please check it out!

 So who was the first major brand to use a crown closure? Was it Hires - Moxie - or Vernor's? Someday I hope to be able to answer that question.

 SPB

 Link to "Earliest Crown Closure" thread ... 

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-304119/mpage-1/key-earliest%2Ccrown%2Ctop/tm.htm

 [ 1895 Murdock & Freeman - Picture courtesy of Sam_MaineBottles ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

And here's the 1895 Murdock & Freeman I purchased on ebay, but is clear and not the aqua blue color like Sam_MaineBottles bottle.

 The opener pictured is a William Painter patent from the 1890s.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

This pertains to the opener pictured in my last post. Mine is identical, but because of the black paint it's covered with, I cannot read the patent info on it, and have no intention of scrapping the paint off ...


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## celerycola (Sep 9, 2012)

In an 1889 article in The Pharmaceutical Era Vernor was noted for its ginger ale and celery phosphate at the fountain. No mention of bottling at that time.

 Here's a dispenser of the time:


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## celerycola (Sep 9, 2012)

A later dispenser:


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

georgeoj ~

 I apologize if it appears that I am hijacking your thread, but because your bottle suggest that Vernor's might have been the first to use a crown closure, I just couldn't help myself and hope you don't mind. If Vernor's was the first, you could be a part of establishing soda bottle history because, as far as I know, it has not been confirmed yet by anyone as to who was the first.

 SPB

 Here's a better pic of my "possible" 1894 William Painter opener. After all, what good would a crown top bottle be if you didn't have some way of opening it?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

celery ~

 Great pictures!

 I have been unable to determine it yet, but wondering when the Vernor's "signature" was first introduced? It's obviously not on their early bottles for some reason. ???

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

I'm not sure if this is referring to the "signature" or not, but I have come across this same information numerous times in my research, and find it a little confusing ...

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor%27s

 According to the 1911 trademark application on "Vernor's" as a name for ginger ale and extract, Vernors entered commerce in 1880.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

According to the following link, it describes the 1911 Vernor's trademark as being in a "Block Form Typeset." But I truly believe the Vernor's "signature" was used prior to this and that all it means is that Vernor's did not get around to actually filing for trademark status until 1911. It was common for a lot of brands, including Coca Cola and others, not to secure trademarks until long after they had been in operation.

 http://trademarks.justia.com/710/55/vernors-71055398.html


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

The reason I am posting the following "Coca Cola" information is to illustrate that even though the crown closure was invented in 1892, you have to wonder why a prospering company like Coca Cola didn't use a crown closure if they were readily available in 1894 when it was first bottled? As we all know, the first Coca Cola bottles were Hutchinsons. The first crown Coca Cola bottles didn't appeared until about 1899.

 In the course of the research I have done on Vernor's today, I have seen no mention of them ever using a Hutchinson bottle. Which is just one more piece of the puzzle leading me to suspect that crown closures, by Vernor's or anyone else, were not readily available until about 1895 at the very earliest. 

 So the search continues as to whether it was Vernor's or someone else who was the first "major brand" to use a crown closure? At present I am rooting for "Vernor's" ... 1896/1898 ... ????  

 (As I mentioned earlier, I have been unable to "confirm" when Hires and Moxie starting using crowns).  

 SPB

 1886 Coca Cola Established: 

 http://heritage.coca-cola.com/

 1892-93 Coca Cola Trademark Signature:

 http://www.7xpub.com/coke-facts-and-figures/326-coca-cola-brand-and-trademark.html

 1894 First Bottled:

 http://www.thecoca-colacompany.com/ourcompany/historybottling.html

 1944-45 Coke Trademark:

 http://www.7xpub.com/coke-facts-and-figures/323-coke-brand-and-trademark.html


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## celerycola (Sep 9, 2012)

Coca-Cola was first bottled in 1887 by Woolfolk Walker in Atlanta. Walker sold out to Hagan in 1888. Biedenharn was, at best, the third bottler of Coca-Cola when he started in 1894. Holmes and Barber of Valdosta and possibly others were bottling Coca-Cola by 1897.

 The Coca-Cola Bottling Company was not a prosperous business when they were founded in 1899. They were just getting started and operated a single, small bottling operation in Chattanooga using Hutchinson bottles. When the Atlanta plant opened in 1900 it was a small operation using Hutchinson bottles. That was the predominant type closure used in the South at the time. Birmingham, Macon, Rome, Louisville and other plants opening in 1901 and later used the first Crown bottles for Coca-Cola.

 The Barber letter explains why Hutchinsons were only briefly used for Coca-Cola. Ingredients in Coca-Cola reacted with either the tin or rubber in the Hutchinson stopper and the drink would turn bad in just a few days. They did not have this problem using Hutchinsons for Soda Water. That is why the Hutchinson bottles marked Coca-Cola were not used for Coca-Cola and were, instead, Soda Water bottles. 

 The Hutchinson Directory does not list a Vernor bottle. Since Vernors, like Coca-Cola and Hires were primarily Fountain Drinks any early bottling was likely accomplished by independent bottlers who used a paper label on their existing bottles. 

 The Crown Cork was one of two revolutions in the soft drink business in the early 1890's. The other was Jacob Baur's process of creating liquid carbonic acid gas for mass distribution. Prior to this a bottler had to purchase expensive machinery to produce his own gas. Baur and his Liquid Carbonic Company made the bottling process cheaper and simpler.

 Both the Crown Cork and Liquid CO2 were introduced during a depression in the 1890's followed by war in 1898. It makes sense that these new technologies took time to be tested before being widely used. There was a big market for used bottling equipment and even bottles during the depression and used equipment was cheaper than buying new, unproven, technology. 



> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> The reason I am posting the following "Coca Cola" information is to illustrate that even though the crown closure was invented in 1892, you have to wonder why a prospering company like Coca Cola didn't use a crown closure if they were readily available in 1894 when it was first bottled? As we all know, the first Coca Cola bottles were Hutchinsons. The first crown Coca Cola bottles didn't appeared until about 1899.
> 
> ...


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## georgeoj (Sep 9, 2012)

Not a problem at all Bob. I am happy to see so much info. on Vernor's. 
 George


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

celery ~

 Thanks for clarifying some of the Coca Cola bottling stuff. I have seen glimpses of similar information over the years, but confused as to why most of the Coca Cola sites and books don't go into such detail. Perhaps one of these days you can share with us where some of that information originates from ... I would love to have it for my records and future research.

 George ~

 I'm glad you don't mind my bombardment of information. In fact, I have arrived at the inconclusive conclusion that Vernor's first bottle may ineed be "similar" to the one you recently acquired, only that it would be older and likely a pre-1906 BIM type. I have looked at a jillion Vernor's bottles today and have been unable to find anything that looks much different or earlier. I can't say for certain, as it is merely described as "early," but I'm betting the one pictured on the following link is just about as "early" as they get. I would have posted a picture of it, but it's a pdf type file that won't allow it. But if someone knows how to get by the restriction, then please do so and post a picture of it for us.

 Thanks again to all.

 SPB

 PDF link with picture of "early" Vernor's bottle ...

 http://www.collectorsweekly.com/assets/pdfs/bottles-and-extras/ginger-ales-irish-roots.pdf


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> In an 1889 article in The Pharmaceutical Era Vernor was noted for its ginger ale and celery phosphate at the fountain. No mention of bottling at that time.
> 
> Here's a dispenser of the time:


 
 I'm wondering if this 1929 Vernor's Patent and the dispenser celerycola posted are the same or just similar? The illustration appears to show it with the lid lifted off. Sometimes changes are made before they go into actual production ... ???

 Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERNORS-Ginger-Ale-Soft-Drink-Dispenser-US-Patent-B206-/261009240977?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc55cf391


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

I did a little more research this afternoon and found the following in the back of Keith Wunderlich's book. Scroll to the chronology section and find 1896. If the drug store closed at that time and the "soft drink" business began, this suggest to me (once again) that Vernor's first bottle was produced in 1896.

 One of the funny things about soda bottles that look alike and were produced in the same style for a number of years, especially those made during the transition years between BIM and machine, is being able to determine which is which. I sometimes have a problem with it myself. It can be a little tricky determining whether a particular bottle has tool marks or if the seam is properly located, etc; etc. Thus, I suspect there are collectors out there who have one of Vernor's first bottles (crown closure) but don't even realize it. I doubt that most ebay sellers think about it one way or the other, and probably wouldn't know even if you asked them. The point I'm trying to make, is for those among us and/or anyone else who reads this in the future who owns a VGA version of a Vernor's bottle, to inspect it closely and see if it might just be ...

 ... the first bottle used by Vernor's, as well as possibly being "the earliest crown closure" ever used by a major brand of soda pop.

 Thanks.

 SPB

 [ Scroll to 1896 ]

 http://books.google.com/books?id=-yv2HI_5ZhcC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Vernor's+bottle&source=bl&ots=uopNpjLVRP&sig=ehK3s9nbHJ7xoz2YhE5oOp9gsIc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=S0xNUJTGDMaoywG2rIDACQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vernor's%20bottle&f=false


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 9, 2012)

In other words ...

 "There's just gotta be a simple way of dating those VGA bottles!"  [sm=thumbup.gif]

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

Although not definitive, a couple of methods that might assist in determining the age of a early Vernor's bottle are as follows ...

 1.  Whether it is machine made or hand blown in a mold?
 A: Machine made bottles typically have a mold seam that runs the entire legnth of the bottle to the very top of the lip.
 B: Hand blown in a mold bottles typically have a mold seam that terminates on the shoulder or neck.
 C: Tooling marks (sideways striations) on the neck are more typical of hand blown bottles than they are of machine made bottles.

 2. Whether or not the contents are embossed on the bottle?
 A: The 1913 Gould Amendment (see below) required that the contents of any food or beverage be present on the container or bottle. Thus, any soda bottle without the contents embossed on it was most likely made prior to 1914, which was the grace period deadline.

 So with these pointers in mind, I'm thinking that Vernor's first bottle (Crown top circa 1896-1898) will be hand blown and not have the contents embossed on it. 

 The Gould Amendment ...

 On March 3, 1913, Congress passed H. R. 22526, generally known as the Gould Amendment to the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. Although the Pure Food and Drug Act demanded a great deal of labeling information, it did not require the inclusion of volume specification. The Gould Amendment corrected that oversight when it stated that the "quantity of the contents be . . . plainly and conspicuously marked on the outside of the package in terms of weight, measure, or numerical count" but continued to explain that "reasonable variations shall be permitted." Although the law went into effect immediately, it clarified that "no penalty of fine, imprisonment, or confiscation shall be enforced for any violation of its provisions as to domestic products prepared or foreign products imported prior to eighteen months after its passage" (U. S. 1913:732). In other words, the industry actually had a grace period in required compliance until September 3, 1914.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

It's impossible to say for certain just when the embossed bottle pictured on the left below was made, but if you click on the link and read the seller's description, you will note the following ...

 1.  He clearly describes the larger paper label bottle as being a 15 1/2 ounce.

 2.  But his description of the smaller bottle does not even mention the contents, and yet he clearly describes everything else that is embossed on it, and says that it measures 9.125 inches tall (which would approximate a 9 or 10 ounce bottle).

 So was this just an oversight on the seller's part, or does the smaller bottle in fact not have the contents on it? I don't know either. He does say both are machine made, but this doesn't necessarily narrow down the date because a machine made bottle like that could easily have been made anytime between about circa 1908 to the early 1920s or 30s. It's the possibility of the missing contents that interest me most, which, if they are missing, would likely date it prior to 1914. All things considered, this "*might*" be the earliest Vernor's bottle I have seen so far.

 SPB

 Link:  http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vernors-ginger-ale-bottles-detroit-116351756


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

PS ~

 Of the dozens of other VGA embossed Vernor's bottles I have looked at, all were described with the contents amount. The bottle I just spoke of is the only one I've seen that failed to mention the contents. ???

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

I just found this ad and don't know how old it is, it didn't say, but it looks pretty dang old to me. And because of it, I'm thinking that Vernor's first bottle wasn't even embossed at all but was a plain straight-sided bottle with a paper label. This is the largest I could save the picture and have been unable to make out the label details, other than it looks plain and does not have a Gnome on it. 

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

I just realized that the paper label bottle in the old black & white ad is like the one pictured on the book I ordered. It arrives in a few days and I will let you know what it has to say ...

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

PS ~

 Based on everything I've read, Vernor's "Gnome" mascot was introduced around the-turn-of-the-century, which suggest the paper label bottles in question *might* be pre-gnome circa 1896-1899. If so, then that narrows it down pretty close as far as I'm concerned. But finding one of those Vernor's bottles with the label still intact could be next to impossible. And unless they are marked on the base in some manner to identify them as a Vernor's product, and missing the label, a person might have one and not even know it.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

Here's the wording I have been looking for ... 1896 ... bottling plant

 Now all I need is to find one of their bottles.

 SPB

 http://books.google.com/books?id=HQdTa9ZXlVAC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=vernor's+bottling&source=bl&ots=BTmjeO3PU4&sig=KQddZXGCBtrhCSN42qM_EBcSneQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tY5OUO2jIseq2gWqoICACA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vernor's%20bottling&f=false


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## epackage (Sep 10, 2012)

You're a frikkin' pit bull when it comes to the details on these sodas Bob....[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 10, 2012)

Jim ~

 Gotta have the facts right for the record books, ya know! [sm=thumbup1.gif]

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 11, 2012)

http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/news_article.html?id=1213,1372,1459,%202020


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## M.C.Glass (Sep 11, 2012)

From Crown Holdings Inc  Crown Cork Holdings
 1892-A New Industry
 Foreman and inventor William Painter patents the 'crown cork' and soon thereafter starts the Crown Cork & Seal Company of Baltimore.

 Crown cork patent drawing


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## M.C.Glass (Sep 11, 2012)

The bottle cap was around for 6 yrs. before there was an efficient way to use them. A must for Jas Vernor. He was what we call an al today.
 1898-Automation
 Painter introduces the first foot-powered, syruper-crowner. A good operator could fill and cap 24 bottles a minute! Painter starts selling crowning equipment and gains retailers support for the new bottle sealing device.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 11, 2012)

Cool collection of vintage Vernor's bottles at very end of video. If advertisement appears, just click X it away. For full screen click lower right box accordingly ...

 http://www.google.com/imgres?start=591&num=10&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=615&addh=140&tbm=isch&tbnid=Okypdezv4H2eqM:&imgrefurl=http://www.monkeysee.com/play/22071-detroit-s-ginger-ale-dates-to-civil-war&docid=mwZElj6eVmC2bM&imgurl=http://knowlera.vo.llnwd.net/o18//images/video_clip/thumb/22071/f_aheidon_vernors_detroit_10-21-11_001_001_original-thumbnail.png&w=146&h=84&ei=etFOUJi5CabDygHi84GgCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=323&vpy=239&dur=3878&hovh=67&hovw=116&tx=72&ty=50&sig=117846968910233379133&page=29&tbnh=67&tbnw=116&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:591,i:344


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## celerycola (Sep 11, 2012)

The patent drawing looks like a counter top dispenser with the syrup cooler a separate box out of sight below a built in fountain.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if this 1929 Vernor's Patent and the dispenser celerycola posted are the same or just similar? The illustration appears to show it with the lid lifted off. Sometimes changes are made before they go into actual production ... ???
> ...


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## celerycola (Sep 11, 2012)

The information on the first bottler of Coca-Cola came from Asa Candler's nephew, Samuel Candler Dobbs. His remarks were part of his sworn statement in US Federal Court when he was a top officer in the Coca-Cola Company.


> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> celery ~
> 
> ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 19, 2012)

I got the Vernor's book in the mail today, and even though I just thumbed through it, as near as I can determine their fist bottle was circa 1896-97 and looks (as near as I can tell) identical to the one Georgeoj posted a picture of initially. The picture below is from the book and shows the general eveolution of their bottles. But since it appears they used that same bottle design for a number of years, the tricky part is being able to identify the earliest one. And if they don't have a makers mark, then it becomes even trickier. So all I can suggest is for anyone who reads this thread now or in the future, and you have a VGA embossed bottle, to examine it closely and see what you can see and report it here.

 SPB

 [  Vernor's Lineup - From embossed first to one calorie current  ]


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## hemihampton (Sep 20, 2012)

Pic of 2 of my Vernors. Just a few Months ago me & Tom was digging on the Detroit River bank. We found some Blob top & crown top beer bottles. My Columbus brewing blob bottle was from around 1898. Then I found a broken Vernors bottle near it in same hole & I wondered how did this newer Vernors bottle get mixed in with this 1890's stuff? Now I wonder if that Vernors was from 1890's? LEON.


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## hemihampton (Sep 20, 2012)

Some of my Vernors Cans. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 20, 2012)

The following is pretty week evidence, so please bare with me. But when I was researching early (circa 1895-1900) crown closures, I noticed on many of them (versus the later circa 1905 bottles) that the very top of the lips seemed slightly more rounded than the more uniformed and flatter looking ones after the turn of the century. And although this needs a lot more research to be done and comparisons to be made, it might be something to consider and look for.

 Roundish crude lip = Earlier
 Flat/uniformed lip  = Later

 Here's an example of what I am referring to. The difference is subtle but noticable, especially when you have them in front of you and able to examine closely. The one on the right is an 1895 Murdock & Freemwn and the one on the left is a 1950s bottle. The earlier lips seem to be a little thicker/fatter, too.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 20, 2012)

Correction ...

 I really messed that one up. 

 Regarding the bottle on the left, I typed 1950s but meant *1920s*.


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## epackage (Sep 21, 2012)

Tooled crowns were all over the place because of variations in the tools, not until the lips were done on bottle machines did they all appear the same...


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## hemihampton (Sep 24, 2012)

Brought home some old Vernors shards that came out of a hole from around 1898-1910. Seen a few of these old embossed Vernors but never seen any that said Food and, and then the No# 1246 embossed on side. Along the bottom is totally blank & sez nothing else.  Does not say 10 oz. near bottom. Anybody know what was embossed on the side of this bottle?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 25, 2012)

Hemi ~

 The embossed wording suggest "Food And Drug" which might be related to the "Pure Food And Drug Act Of 1906." As to the No. 1246, a wild guess is ... January 24, 1906 or December 4, 1906 ... ??? 

 I'll check my Vernor's book and see if it mentions anything.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 25, 2012)

Pure Food And Drug Act according to Wikipedia ...

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_Food_and_Drug_Act


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 25, 2012)

The Vernor's book makes no mention of the number 1246. However, other Internet refrences regarding the 1906 Pure Food and Drug Act speak of *registration numbers.* I haven't fully researched this yet, but seems to be one thing that makes sense and might explain the number.

 SPB


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 25, 2012)

This is a real shot in the dark and pertains to ...

 Dunn's Pure Food And Drug Legal Manual ~ 1912-1913 ~ Page No. 1246

 http://books.google.com/books?id=P34sAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1246&lpg=PA1246&dq=Legal+manual+charles+wesley+dunn+1246&source=bl&ots=_E4ecFXUo9&sig=f8UQI2gZM8yvPM6HDj_Wq4VzowU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bc1hUJyPE8H42QXB0YHICw&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Legal%20manual%20charles%20wesley%20dunn%201246&f=false


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## hemihampton (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm A little Familiar with that 1906 Pure Food act as I have Many Michigan bottles that Mention it on Label, ect. SO, My Question is would this Statement be a way to tell the Older embossed Vernors from the newer ones sine my 1924 & 1925 Vernors bottles do not have this statement. I'd have to consider one of these a older tougher more valuable bottle to Aquire. LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 25, 2012)

Leon ~

 I agree! And willing to "guess" your shard is circa 1907 to 1914, with 1914 being when the Gould Admendment to the 1906 Pure Food and Drug act went into full effect.

 SPB


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## hemihampton (Sep 25, 2012)

They didn't start adding contents to bottle until around 1912. I'd guess pre 1912. LEON.


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## celerycola (Sep 25, 2012)

I had one of these with the Food and Drug Act embossing. Sold it on ebay long ago.


> ORIGINAL:  hemihampton
> 
> Brought home some old Vernors shards that came out of a hole from around 1898-1910. Seen a few of these old embossed Vernors but never seen any that said Food and, and then the No# 1246 embossed on side. Along the bottom is totally blank & sez nothing else.Â  Does not say 10 oz. near bottom. Anybody know what was embossed on the side of this bottle?


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## hemihampton (Sep 25, 2012)

How much did it go for? Curious minds want to know. THANKS, LEON.


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  celerycola
> 
> Coca-Cola was first bottled in 1887 by Woolfolk Walker in Atlanta. Walker sold out to Hagan in 1888. Biedenharn was, at best, the third bottler of Coca-Cola when he started in 1894. Holmes and Barber of Valdosta and possibly others were bottling Coca-Cola by 1897.
> 
> ...


great info!


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

bob there is a bottle older than the two embossed bottles youve shown but youll have to take my word on that, my buddy dug alarge quart bottle that just read vernors on the bottom and was bim


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

i wish i had a pix of the above mentioned bottle but its long gone , but heres a different variant,  vernors bottle that reads" detroits drink"

  on the reverse, when was that slogan used ? i dug this in the 4th grade, in a teens context near detroit


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

and the reverse DETROITS DRINK!


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

DANG IT HERE IT IS


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## madman (Sep 28, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernors ACCORDING TO THIS IT WAS USED IN THE EARLY 1900S


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## SODAPOPBOB (Sep 30, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  madman
> 
> bob there is a bottle older than the two embossed bottles youve shown but youll have to take my word on that, my buddy dug alarge quart bottle that just read vernors on the bottom and was bim


 
 I don't claim to know exactly what Vernor's first bottle looks like, only that ... "as near as I can determine it was made circa 1896-97"

 (And was "probably" a Crown as opposed to a Hutch)

 SPB


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## madman (Oct 1, 2012)

i believe my buddy had that bottle large quart bim seed bubbles streched neck, paper lable just read vernors on the base


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## hemihampton (Nov 10, 2012)

A few weeks ago I was finally able to Pick up the Vernors with the Pure Food 1906 Statement. Much better example then my Shard. This version seems much harder to find. LEON.


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## madman (Nov 10, 2012)

leon thats very cool! thanks for sharing ive never seen that variant


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## M.C.Glass (Nov 11, 2012)

There's a bail top Vernor's on eBay, but I have to call "fake!" because the bottle says it must have a crown-cork to be genuine and also has the bottle contents embossed. That came after 1906, right?
Vernor's bail top
 Not accusing the seller of anything. I'm sure he found it so.


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## hemihampton (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah, Seems suspicious? LEON.


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## epackage (Nov 13, 2012)

Many early crown tops came with these stoppers, not sure if these ever did but it is not uncommon at all from other bottlers...


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## hemihampton (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes, BUT, Would you put this one a bottle that is embossed in the glass saying it has a crown cork?


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## hemihampton (Nov 13, 2012)

Here's a Pic of mine with Crown Cork saying. LEON.


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## epackage (Nov 13, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  hemihampton
> 
> Yes, BUT, Would you put this one a bottle that is embossed in the glass saying it has a crown cork?


 Nope, which is why I said what I said...[]


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## daytondigger (Dec 14, 2012)

Having just dug through and cleaned up the soda shards from my mill race dig near Dayton, OH, I discovered the mystery bottom and partial side with the words "above design" and "in red" visible are in fact this same early embossed Vernors. In context, the sodas dug along side this were late slug plates and deco sodas. I dated most items as 20's on up. I have seen lots of Vernors remains in dumps and privies in and around Dayton, with only Detroit emboseed, it's somewhat difficult to guess when they first marketed it in Dayton.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

As for the fasteners, there were a multitude of various "after market" stoppers that could be purchased and used on crown closures like these by Hires for home brew. They were also used to seal bottles of unfinished beverage just as people do today. I don't recall the exact date (likely early 1920s), but there eventually came a time when wire-bail closures from the bottler were unheard of if not banned outright for sanitary reasons. It is safe to assume that the majority of soda pop sold after the late teens early 1920s had crown caps. Wire and/or other types of closures are a very unreliable method of dating bottles. Its the "finish" itself that counts the most.  

 SPB

 [ Notice the bottle pictured has a crown closure but the after market seal is a cork with a wire to hold it in place ]


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