# Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke



## daven2nl (Dec 15, 2012)

Gentleman,

 I've been off the radar the last few months after making some posts here sharing my Guam finds and exchanging some Coca Cola bottle information with some of the regulars.  I still have the data I collected from my WW2 coke bottle survey I did in the jungle and plan on continuing with plans to write a paper on my finds - just need to find the time.

 One of the questions that came up was whether or not there was a Guam embossed Hobbleskirt from the time before WW2 when a man named Butler had a Coke franchise and bottled here on island.  

 Today I visited the Pacific War Museum and had a great conversation with the curator.  One of the first questions she asked me when she discovered I find a lot of coke bottles was "have you found an Agana Guam coke bottle yet?".  The museum actually has one on display, and I was able to take a photo through the glass.  Unfortunately their bottle is broken - chipped at the base and broken at the top - and it looks like a scuba dive find.  

 Apparently there is one more known Agana Guam coke bottle known to exist - by one of the descendants of Butler himself.  I attempted to visit their store but it was closed.  Rumor is that the National Park Service here on Guam was given a couple found by hikers, but we suspect those are simply WW2 era clear Hobbleskirt bottles.

 So - Agana Guam marked Hobbleskirt coke bottles do exist.  As far as we know, there are two bottles in existence.  I'm going to see if I can't find one myself in the time I have remaining here on Guam.  It will be challenging - the two largest villages on the island were completely destroyed during the liberation in 1944, and during the Japanese occupation all things American were illegal - so for all we know the majority of bottles were destroyed.

 I asked but they did not know the date of their bottle.   Next time I go back I'll see if they can't let me pull it out of the glass enclosure to get some better photos and look at the date.

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

Dave ~

 Welcome back. We haven't heard from you since July 4th 2012. Here's the link to the original discussion regarding your and other WWII related Coke bottles that was started by member Adapt on June 6, 2012.

 Thanks for sharing the "Butler / Agana, Guam" bottle. On the last page of this link (Post #66) is some info I found on Butler that will bring everyone up to speed.

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-525898/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

PS ~

 Dave

 I sent Bill Porter an Email with a picture of the Agana, Guam bottle to see if he can determine whether it is a 1915 - 1923 - or D'Patent bottle. I'll let you know when I hear back from him.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

Dave ~

 I heard from Bill Porter who said ...

 "His best guess is, because of the large lettering on the base, that the Agana, Guam bottle is most likely a Chattanooga Glass 1923 Patent bottle made sometime after 1932. But he also said there is a possibility it could be a very early Pat. D 105529 made prior to 1942." 

 He said if you ever find a stash of them that he would be interested in acquiring one.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

This is from Bill Porter's book which list the various dates for the five different hobbleskirt bottles ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 15, 2012)

Dave ~

 When you take the following into account ...

 1.  Where this link states ...

 http://guampedia.com/chester-carl-butler/

 "In 1923, Chester Butler traveled to Atlanta, Georgia and obtained a franchise for a new brand of cola drink known as Coca-Cola. The Coca-Cola Company was young and eager to introduce its product into new markets, and thus Butler was granted the first license to manufacture and sell the product outside the continental U.S."

 and ...

 2.  The fact Bill Porter's checklist indicates that even though the 1923 patent bottle is embsseded as such, in reality it wasn't really made/issued until 1927-28.

 Thus, this indicates to me that Chester Butler's first bottle was a 1915 patent because that was the only bottle available in 1923 when Butler received his Coca Cola franchise.

 And because Butler was only in operation until ... 

 "The bottling plant, movie theater and Butlerâ€™s Emporium were completely destroyed during the American bombardment of HagÃ¥tÃ±a in 1944."

 This indicates the possibility of *three variations* of the Butler bottle, which would be ...

 1.  1915 Patent (Issued 1917 through 1930)
 2.  1923 Patent (Issued 1927 through 1938)
 3.  D'Patent .... (Issued 1938 through 1951)

 So just in case you thought your hunt involved finding only one bottle, it now looks like there is a possibly of three to be found. (Lol)

 Good luck and please keep us posted.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## daven2nl (Dec 15, 2012)

Bob,

 Thanks for the reply and all the info.

 I regret not specifically asking to see the bottle closely.  I was with my family and since it was my 1st time there at the museum, I didn't want to press the issue.  I did give them a WW2 canteen covered with engraved artwork and the name of the owner who was wounded in action on Guam.  I have a couple other items to donate to them as well for their collection... so I suspect at some point I'll get to see it more closely for sure.

 If/when that time comes I will definitely get the date/mfr info from the bottle.  

 It would have to been made prior to December 1941 - that is when the Japanese occupied Guam.

 My challenge now is to fine one (hopefully more) of these old bottles.  Challenge is there because I have no pre-war information showing where the town dumps were, ETC.  Add to this, the two largest towns on Guam, including Agana where the bottling plant was located, was completely destroyed in 1944.  In fact, all the rubble of Agana was bulldozed into the reef flat area and is now a park - including baseball stadium and parking lots.  No digging possible nor allowed.  The other village - Sumay - where the Pan American flights passed through - was also destroyed and was consolidated into a huge military base.  I have some aerial photographs from 1945 that show a couple undeveloped areas around the old town I could explore, but these are mostly covered with thick underbrush and it will be very hard to find anything.

 My best bet would be to find a family dump on one of the old pre-war ranches on northern Guam (not many of them).  In all my exploration over the past two years, I have yet to find any.  I don't suspect that much was buried because the ground here is all coral based limestone - not easy to dig!

 -Dave


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## daven2nl (Dec 15, 2012)

One more thing... I will start bringing a note pad with me and pen, and document the coke bottles I come across while exploring (I find a lot).  I've documented about 150 so far...






 Not sure what anyone will do with this data, but it seems like information is lacking from the WW2 era with regards to Coca-Cola bottles (the clear ones for troops overseas in particular).  

 The information I'm gathering is color (green or clear), bottle type (Pat-D or other), mold code, MFR, date, and any embossing on the base.  Most don't have any.

 If there is any other info I should be collecting, please let me know.  FYI, I see most of these coke bottles on military property and their removal is technically prohibited due to potential historical significance.  As a result, I have a few examples I plan on photographing (to supplement/explain the data I'm collecting) and the rest I leave where found.  I've returned many of the ones I've cleaned up and photographed... I don't have room for a big collection myself and starting an Ebay business selling American and Japanese WW2 bottles is probably not a good idea.


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## Bill H (Dec 16, 2012)

I sincerely apologize if I have the wrong area of this forum to ask my question, but I just joined today and this site is huge.  I ran across it two days ago, and it's great.  In any event I have a case of 24 clear glass hobble-skirt Coca Cola bottles I found on the North Slope some 20 years ago.  The bottle manufacturer's logo on several of the bottle skirts is "6N<(I)>45".  On the base of all the bottles is a small single raised dimple or dot but no other writing.  The sides of the bottles have the script Coca Cola on them with the words "TRADE-MARK" below the script.  The bottles are 7 3/4 inches high.  In reading through the various postings in this site it looks like this bottle was manufacuted by Owens-Illinois in 1945 by the plant (#6) in Charleston, W VA. Would anyone know what the "N" behind the "6" represents, or can someone direct me to a series of posts that might have some additional information.  The wood case holding the bottles has both requisition and purchase order numbers stenciled on the side, and is marked "COCA-COLA EXPORT CORP."  Because the last digits of the requisition number are "-45" my assumption right now is the coke was ordered in 1945 by a military unit stationed in the Alaska Territory.  Thank you very much.

 Bill


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## daven2nl (Dec 16, 2012)

Bill,

 Welcome to the forum.  I am mostly a lurker here myself, and there are others who will surely respond who have a lot more info than I do (SODAPOPBOB being one of them).

 You've found what I find in the jungle here on Guam all the time.  Those are "wartime cokes" - clear coke bottles manufactured for bottlers overseas.  Part of the whole "a Coke for every soldier" campaign Coca-Cola ran during the war.  Brilliant, really, because when all those soldiers went home... they probably continued drinking coke.  For every 30 WW2 coke bottles I find, I might find one Pepsi-Cola bottle.

 You are correct that they are manufactured by the Owens-Illinois company in 1945.  I suspect, but may be wrong that the 6N is the mold mark, not the plant number.  You might be right however.  Most coke bottles from that era have a number only to the left of the mfr mark, not a letter.  I find letters on many of the clear WW2 cokes like you have however.  I think this might still be somewhat of a mystery, however I might be wrong.

 The single raised dot on the bottom is also very common from what I can tell.  No idea what it signifies, if anything.  I have found bases with that dot, nothing at all, or a number/letter code.  Again, not sure what it signifies, except in the "NUMBER  LETTER" case, the number always matches the number to the left of the MFR mark on the skirt.

 Pretty interesting that you found that on the north slope of Alaska... not sure what sort of military presence we had there during WW2.  The clear coke bottles can be found all over the Pacific islands that saw action in WW2, as well as Europe.

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Bill H ~

 Welcome to the forum. 

 The wood case you speak of is the first of its kind that I know of. Please post pictures of it and the stenciling. It might be the first time on this forum or elsewhere that such an artifact has ever been seen.

 Regarding the Owens-Illinois letter/number combos, no one I know of has been able to figure out exactly what they stand for. But because I believe Owens-Illinois had a reason for using them, they are surely a representation of something specific. 

 The following is from page 2 of the original thread started by member Adapt in June of 2012, which includes the currently known Owens-Illinois letter/number combos identified on various Coca Cola hobbleskirt bottles. Perhaps by a closer examination of them again a logical formula might emerge.

 By the way, Dave, I like your spreadsheet a lot and encourage you to continue it. Currently there is nothing like it that I know of and expect in time it will serve as a valuable tool for collectors. In fact, I think you have the makings of a small book in the works here which, like almost everything else involving WWII related Coca Cola bottles, has yet to see the light of day . Please keep up the hard work.   

 I'll be back later with more.

 Bob


 Link to Page 2 of Original Thread:

 https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-525898/mpage-2/key-/tm.htm

 Where the following is found ...

 Bill Porter's List of Letter/Number Combos:

 Petaluma, California ... 2A <(I)> 44 (1944) 
 Susanville, California .. 3A <(I)> 47 (1947) 
 Pocatello, Idaho ......... 8A <(I)> 50 (1950) 
 Reno, Nevada ............ B3 <(I)> 50 (1950)

 Dave's List of Letter/Number Combos:

 9D <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass) 
 5L <> 44 (Pat-D, No embossing on base, clear glass) 
 2C <> 44 (Trade Mark, no embossing on base except for a single raised dimple, clear glass) 
 8P <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass) 
 8R <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass) 
 5K <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

We can add this one to ...

 Bill H List of Letter/Number Combos:

 6N <(I)> 45


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Bob's List:

 I only have one Clear Glass WWII era Coca Cola bottle, which is marked ...

 Trade-Mark ... (Under the Coca Cola script)
 .6 <(I)> 45 ... (On the side)
 G ... (On the Base)


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Notice on Dave's list (which I edited slightly) where he shows two almost identical bottles, except that one has 9D and the other has 5K. Both are dated 1944. Both are Pat'D bottles. Both are from Oakland, Ca. Both are green. But why the different Number/Letter combos? In my opinion, there "has" to be an explanation for it! Could it indicate where the bottles were *made* and/or possibly where they were to be *shipped* to?  

 9D <(I)> 44 ... (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass)

 5K <(I)> 44 ... (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass)

 If we change the letters to numbers, we come up with ...

 D = 4 / 9-4
 K = 11 / 5-11

 Which, at present, doesn't make the least bit of sense to me!

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Based on the chart below, I am going to eliminate the letters D & K as having anything to do with plant numbers. Notice where ...

 1.  Plant #4 closed in 1944.  
 2.  Plant number #11 closed in 1940, and wasn't reassigned until 1963. 

 The 1944 date might fit, but I seriously doubt that any of the letters are directly related to Owens-Illinois plants. If correct, then it means the letters represent "something else." 

 But what's really weird, is the fact that Dave's list shows two bottles with a number 5. And yet, according to the chart below, there was no plant number 5 until the one opened in Charlotte, Michigan in 1963. Also check out Dave's number 8 bottles. Apparently that plant closed in 1939 and wasn't reassigned until 1962. 

 Something doesn't jive here, but I'm not sure yet what it is!

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Just for the record!

 The list of known letters at present are ...

 A ~ B ~ C ~ D ~ K ~ L ~ N ~ P ~ R


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

If we use Dave's list as an example, and convert the letters to numbers, and the numbers to months of the year, we come up with ...

 9D <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass) 
 5L <> 44 (Pat-D, No embossing on base, clear glass) 
 2C <> 44 (Trade Mark, no embossing on base except for a single raised dimple, clear glass) 
 8P <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass) 
 8R <> 44 (Pat-D, no embossing on base, clear glass) 
 5K <> 44 (Pat-D, Oakland CA embossed on the base, green glass) 

 9D = September 4, 1944
 5L = May 12, 1944
 2C = February 3, 1944
 8P = August 16, 1944
 8R = August 18, 1944
 5K = May 11, 1944

 But would Owens-Illinois need to track their (possible overseas only) bottles that closely? And if so, why? And what about which plants made the bottles? Or were they possibly all made at the same plant, which they already knew, thus having no reason to mark the bottles accordingly? If we can find "confirmed" evidence of even one plant that made WWII era hobbleskirts, that would be a milestone in my opinion. 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Check out this WWII photo showing numerous cases of Coca Cola bottles. It doesn't give an exact date when it was taken but does indicate it was somewhere in Italy. I zoomed in on the stenciling but cannot make it out entirely. One part looks something like ...

*CU  L17*

 If that is an *L*, then it "might" relate to the L on the list I posted. ???

 If anyone can read the stenciling better, please share with us what it says.

 Thanks.

 Bob

 WWII Coca Cola Photo / Italy:

 http://www.coca-colaconversations.com/tag/world-war-ii


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Bill H ~

 Does your wood case have any similar letters or numbers on it like the one from Italy does?

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## daven2nl (Dec 16, 2012)

Bob,

 Could it be something as stupid as just a mold code, so that the MFR (O-I) knows if there is a defect where to look for the problem?

 I was out mountain biking and found more WW2 cokes laying on the side of the trail.  More data for the collection!  The problem is that they are so scattered everywhere, it takes real effort to get from one pile to another (with 10-12 bottles in each scatter).

 I could retire and start a clear coke E-bay business but 99.99% are heavily hazed glass - I suspect from sitting in the jungle for 70 years.  It won't clear up, even after soaking in muriatic acid.  I think the glass is permanently etched.  Still - the date, ETC is usually readable so they are all good from a historical perspective (for the spreadsheet I'm working on).

 I found a 1958 hobbleshirt (1st I've found post 1954) that had the date embossed on the base, not side.... a T in a circle was the MFR mark.  Also looked clear - not green.  I didn't look closely because I was out riding but I'm definitely going back to look more closely later.

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Dave ~

 I considered mold codes, but how would that explain your two Oakland bottles, which were both made in the same year (1944) but have different number/letter combos? (Which are 9D and 5K). I can't say for certain, but I seriously doubt that the same plant would use two different molds for the same bottle.

 Please keep up the good work. You are probably the only person in the entire world with as much data and devotion who might eventually solve this mystery. Without you and your hands-on examination, we are dead in the water. I have looked high and low on the Internet and your contributions to this subject are the most extensive I know of.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Just for the record ...

 There were three different Owens-Illinois plants in California ...

 Plant #20 = Oakland, Ca.
 Plant #22 = Tracy/San Francisco, Ca.
 Plant #23 = Los Angeles, Ca.

 Of the several hundred soda bottles in my collection, I have never seen a brand (Coca Cola - Pepsi - 7up - etc) that was bottled in Oakland that wasn't either made in Oakland itself or one of the other California plants. Thus, if there was a direct connection to Dave's Oakland bottles, and they were made there or elsewhwere in California, then you'd think one of the California plant numbers would be on the bottles somewhere. At present I can find no relationship between 9D-5K and the California plant numbers 20-22-23.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Reminder ...

 Bill Porter's List of Letter/Number Combos: 

 Petaluma, California ... 2A <(I)> 44 (1944) 
 Susanville, California .. 3A <(I)> 47 (1947) 
 Pocatello, Idaho ......... 8A <(I)> 50 (1950) 
 Reno, Nevada ............ B3 <(I)> 50 (1950) 

 Even though Bill Porter's list contains post-war bottles, it could be because the American occupation of Japan (and surrounding areas) lasted until September 8, 1951. (Which is just an observation of mine and not conclusive).

 Bob 

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 16, 2012)

Dave ~

 Is it correct that Guam was liberated in 1944? If so, that could in part explain why so many of the bottles you see are dated 1944. 

 Bob


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## Bill H (Dec 16, 2012)

Bob and Dave,

 I'm really pumped now.  Thanks to everyone for responding.  My case looks almost identical to those cases, but I need to look at mine again.  Darn thing is in the basement on a shelf.  It does have the stencils on it like the photo, but I need to look at the photo closer. I'll let you know what I find.  Yesterday when I looked at my case I wrote the stencil letters and numbers down. they were "WT.43" and "CU 117"  The problem is I'm not exactly sure if the first "1" is a "1" on my case, so I need to get the magnifying glass out.  I'm going to get my wife's digital camera out and take some photos of the bottles and the case and post them.  I'll also check each and every bottle to get the numbers etc. off each.  The one thing that was interesting to me is the bottles are in almost pristine condition with no scratches or wear marks.  It was like the case arrived hot out of the factory, someone got a Coke, drank it, and gently put the bottle it back in the case.  I know there was coke in the bottles because I washed them out.  I put 23 years in the navy.  We would have just pitched it over the side. Dave, I was stationed in Guam for a year.  I'm sorry I didn't go slogging through the jungle now.


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## Bill H (Dec 16, 2012)

Bob,

 The Japanese captured Guam on December 10, 1941. We landed on Guam on July 21, 1944, and Guam was officially secured on August 10, 1944.  I'm sure Coke flowed onto Guam like a river on August 11.  The ships offshore undoubtedly had plenty on hand ready to go.

 Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 17, 2012)

Bob,

 I just lugged the case up from the basement, looked at it, and then looked again at the photo you published.  If you take a look at the case just to the left of the soldier holding the photo, that's the clearest case end.  It says "WT 43" and CU 1 17" There seems to be just a little more space between the two 1s than there is between the 1 and 7.  I think if the photo was clearer you might see a decimal point between the two 1s.  Maybe not.  I have the same 1 spacing on my case, but if there is a decimal point between the two 1s on my case it's covered up by a blemish.  I have a decimal point on my case between the "WT" and the "43"  I believe the "43" is the gross weight of the case, bottles and soda, 43 pounds.  I believe the "1 17" is the cubic feet volume of the case, or 1.17 cubic feet.  Another thing to notice in the photograph is each case has a wood lid, probably nailed on  The wood lid is probably 1/2 inch thick.  My case has no lid, but when a case is opened the lid is undoubtedly just tossed away.  The wood on the bottom of my case is 1/2 inch thick.

 My case measures 12" wide by 8 1/2" tall by 19 1/4" long.  That calculates to a case volume of 1.14 cubic feet.  If the half inch for the lid is added, making the height of my case 9" tall, then the cubic volume of the case would be 1.2 cubic feet.  1.17 cubic feet is a happy medium.  These cases were undoubtedly made all over the place, and although they were undoubtedly made to a standard specification, there will undoubtedly be a slight difference in the volumes of cases from different manufacturers.  I would imagine that if I were to look closely at my case I might be able to find some sort of case manufacturer's mark.  I'll try.  At some point in time some case measured 1.17 cubic feet, so forever more that was what was stamped on them.

 I weighed my case full of empty bottles.  The weight was almost 30 pounds.  I filled a bottle 24 times and poured it into a bowl, then measured the weight of the water (less the weight of the bowl) and it came to 10 pounds, so the gross weight of my case full of bottled water is 39 pounds.  I suppose if one wanted to go nuts then one could find out if Coke weighs more than water, but that's a bit anal.  39 pounds is ball-parkish enough to 43 pounds.  Someone probably weighed some case once and found it was 43 pounds, so like the volume that figure was used forever more.  Who would ever check other than someone like me?  Like the dimensions of the case, manufacturers probably used different wood, different nails or a different number of nails.  All that would have an impact on weight. 

 I noted the handhold openings on my case and the case in the photo are similar but not the same, so maybe some cases had more wood cut out for the handholds than others.  Maybe the lids and bottoms on some cases were a single piece of solid wood.  The bottom of my case is two board separated by a small space.

 What I do know is these wood Coke cases were the mother of all wood cases, solid as a rock and darn near indestructible.  The bottle dividers in the case are wood and measure about 3 1/2 inches high and 3/8 inches thick. What I do notice is how heavy these Coke bottles are.  It's obvious they were made to last forever and take a ton of abuse.  I don't recall seeing another bottle about their size that was more solid and weighed more, but you would be the go-to guy for that stuff.  I'll post some pictures of the case as soon as I can, and I'll also check out all the bottles.

 Bill


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## daven2nl (Dec 17, 2012)

Just got back from exploring a new area.  Ran out of daylight before I was done.  This was an area that had ranches before the war, so I was hoping to find some older bottles, perhaps the elusive Agana Guam bottle.

 I found bottles alright - thousands of them.  All 1944 and later, mostly American beer bottles.  Piles of them.  Also, dozens and dozens more coke bottles.  I found some green ones... embossed... but alas they were all San Francisco from 44 and 45.  Nothing prewar.  

 I got some data until I had to head back.  Getting lost in the jungle at night is not an option!  I'll try to get back up there this weekend.  

 here is what they look like in their natural state:







 Yes, they are lying on top of the ground like that.  Yes, that is a WW2 canteen cup and GI boot heel also in the photo.  Cleaning them up to read the data off them is what's difficult.... moss and dirt needs to be rubbed off, and the numbers on most are worn and difficult to read.

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 17, 2012)

Bill ~

 Your forensic examination of the wood crate and ability to share your findings with us in a comprehensive manner gets an A++. And because I anticipate the same when you finish examining the bottles, my excitement to hear what you discover is growing by the minute. You may very well have found the mother load of wartime Coca Cola bottles, especially if they are in as good of shape as you have indicated.

 ~*~

 Dave ~

 One picture is definitely worth a thousand words. Every time you post one I can almost feel the humidity in the air and smell the stinch of jungle decay. It never ceases to amaze me how many bottles you find laying around. It would be interesting to know what the policy was way-back-when regarding GI's returning their empty bottles. Surely they would not have just tossed away so many hundreds of them had they been instructed to return them. Its almost as if there was no return policy and they intentionally disposed of them for some reason. 

 Thanks to you both. I look forward to your next replies. Who knows, if enough bottles provide enough information, we just might break the Windtalker's code one of these days.

 Bob


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## hemihampton (Dec 17, 2012)

That Agana Coke sounds very Interesting. Let me know if you find any Beer Cans. THANKS, LEON.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 18, 2012)

Check it out ...

 http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=154147


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 18, 2012)

This is from the link I posted and is a altered image (readable stenciling) of the WWII Italy picture ...


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## Bill H (Dec 18, 2012)

Those are really cool reproduction crates in the photo.  Mine is differently constructed, and I'll try to get a photo posted.  My wife and I used a magnifying glass to look at my bottles, so here is what we found:

 All 24 bottles I have are clear glass with no abrasions or scratches.  I've numbered each of my bottles from 1-24, so that's the number on the left. The "observation" column denotes how sure I am of the manufacturer's mark on the bottle.  ** means no doubt and * means pretty sure.  I'm having a bit of trouble getting these columns to align so I apologize if it looks a little goofy.  I noted on the column to the right "Yes" or "No" if the bottle base had that little dimple or dot.  If the blow mold for the bottle was in three major pieces, the two sides and the bottom, I was thinking the dot in the mold for the base might help a worker align the base mold correctly in whatever hold the mold in place.  Something like a bench mark.  Other than that it's a mystery.  I know some of these blow molds came in two pieces with the mold for the base an integral part of one of the mold sides.  Anyway, here's my list.  Oh, there was one outlier bottle, a 1946 one.  Bottle #14.  Bottle # 6 is a circle c manufacturer. Chattanooga Glass Co. 



 Btl #            Mfg. Mark     Observation                  Raised dot on Base





 1                      6N<(I)>45                               **                                Yes

 2                      4<(I)>45                                  *                                  Yes

 3                      Only the 45 is readable                                     Yes

 4                      Only the 45 is readable                                     Yes

 5                      6<(I)>45                                  **                                Yes

 6                      33(c inside circle) 45                **                                No

 The letters of the words "TRADE MARK" under the Coca Cola script on both sides of this bottle are larger letters than all other bottles.  This bottle is the clearest bottle with the fewest flaws in the glass molding.  Unlike the other bottles the base glass is perfectly clear.  

 7                      Nothing is readable                                                       Yes

 8                      Only the <(I)>45 is readable                                         Yes

 9                      8<(I)>45                                  *                                  Yes

 10                    6<(I)>45                                  Unsure                         No

 11                    6N<(I)>45                               *                                  Yes

 12                    6<(I)>45                                  **                                Yes

 13                    8<(I)>45                                  **                                Yes

 14                    20<(I)>46                                **                                Yes

 This bottle is very clear.  The manufacturer's mark covers three folds of the skirt with the 20 on one fold, the <(I)>on the next fold, and the 46 on the third fold.

 15                    Only the 45 is readable                                     Yes

 16                    1<(I)>45                                  Unsure                         Yes

 17                    Only the 45 is readable                                     Yes

 18                    Nothing is readable                                                       Yes

 19                    5R<(I)>45                               *                                  Yes

 20                    2<(I)>45                                  **                                Yes

 21                    7<(I)>45                                  **                                Yes

 22                    8<(I)>45                                  *                                  Yes

 23                    2  or 8<(I)>45                          Unsure 1st number        Yes

 24                    8N<(I)>45                               **                                Yes      

 Bill H


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## daven2nl (Dec 19, 2012)

Bill H,

 Thanks for the info!  If you don't mind, I'd like to incorporate your data into my collection since yours are all WW2 era.  What you have is very typical of what I find out here on Guam.

 I suspect the smaller "TRADE MARK" embossing are on the Owens-Illinois bottles and the larger "TRADE MARK" embossing are on the Chattanooga Glass Co bottles.  

 The base of some of mine have the dimple, some have nothing, some have single letter codes, some have number/letter combination codes.  

 The 1944 bottles mostly have the PAT-D embossing... the 1945 are almost exclusively TRADE MARK only.

 I have a dilemma myself.  While exploring today, I came across the monster of bottle piles in the middle of the jungle.  I couldn't capture all of them in one photo.  






 About 70% are beer bottles, 20% are Coca Cola bottles, and the rest are other types - condiment, ETC.  Some canteen cups and mess tray halves thrown in for good measure.  All are WW2 era - 1945.  I suspect this was a GI encampment following the liberation and they took all the trash cans full of bottles and dumped them here.  

 The dilemma is this:  How many do I get info from?  They aren't the easiest to read due to the hazing, moss, ETC.  Add to this the mosquitoes and sweat from the heat (upper 80's even in late December) and I lose interest after 6 or 7.  I think I should shoot for 250 and call it a day... I've got data from about 160 total so far.

 Oh, and you need to watch your step in the jungle too.... we have pineapples out here.... the ones that go "boom"

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Bill ~ Dave

 Great info and pictures. Thanks. 

 Because 99.9% of the Owens-Illinois bottles I am aware of all use the *Plant # / Symbol / Year Made* marks on their bottles, I can see no logical reason why they would mark their WWII era clear glass bottles any differently. Almost without exception* every one of the 24 bottles Bill listed has a legitimate plant number on it. Now all we have to do is try and determine what the letters stand for. I continue to believe they are related to the bottling plants in some manner.

 For example ...

 Bottles number 9. 13. 22. from Bill's list are all marked with ... 8 <(I)> 45 ... And then for no apparent reason bottle number 24. is marked with ... 8N <(I)> 45 ... The N has to stand for something, but just what that something might be is a mystery at the moment. Not to mention the other letters from the bottles that Dave examined. ???   

 Regarding the exceptions ...

 * On bottle number 16. you show it as ... 1 <(I)> 45 ... Being as there was no plant number 1 in 1945, is it possible the 1 is actually a 7, which would be for Alton, Illinois like bottle number 21. on your list?

 * I'm glad to see a Chattanooga Glass Company bottle in the mix. This confirms that Owens-Illinois was not the only manufacturer who made the clear glass bottles.

 If the following article is accurate, then it will help establish a date range for the clear glass WWII era bottles ...

 http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/

 The first bottle manufactured in 1943 was simply the PATâ€™D -105529 bottle in clear glass with no City/State markings. A new bottle mold could not be made quickly to allow a different style bottle for Military use only. By 1944, the new style bottle began production with the word â€˜TRADEMARKâ€™ below the Coca-Cola script. This bottle was produced until 1946.

 Although the following article by Bill Lockhart and Bill Porter does not specifically mention the WWII era bottles, if you are not familiar with it yet, it is a good read with lots of helpful information regarding Hobbleskirts ...

 http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/coca-cola.pdf

 Lastly ...

 During the course of my continuing research, I came across several references that said the bottle cap pictured below is typical of those used on Coca Cola bottles that were bottled overseas at the various portable/temporary bottling plants that were set up behind the lines in the war zones. Its the first one I have seen and need to do more research on it. 

 Bob


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## daven2nl (Dec 19, 2012)

Bob,

 I found one capped bottle in all my explorations out here.  It was completely rotted away to nothing - absolutely unreadable unfortunately.

 I have found several Chattanooga glass bottles throughout my explorations here.  In fact, they are embossed with a larger "TRADE MARK" lettering than the Owens-Illinois bottles, so they are easy to differentiate.  I have examples of both I can photograph.

 According to my records, I have found only one clear PAT-D bottle from 1945.  All other PAT-D clear bottles are 44, and all other 1945 clear bottles are TRADE MARK.  I also found a PAT-D with only "5" to the right of the Owens-Illinois mark - no 45 - the only one like this I have ever found.

 It is possible that these are outliers - errors - or could be an error on my part trying to read weak embossing off the side of a dirty, hazed bottle in low light conditions in the jungle 

 -Dave


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## Bill H (Dec 19, 2012)

Dave & Bob,

 Dave, you're more than welcome to use anything I post.  As near as I can tell the smaller letter words "TRADE MARK" are the same on all the Owens-Illinois bottles, and only the larger lettered "TRADE MARK" is on the Chattanooga bottle.  As you all know, and as I found out, it can be very difficult to discern the manufacturer's mark on bottles even pristine ones like I have.  Obviously the reason for that has to do with the manufacturing process.  Since I knew almost nothing about the making of glass, after I found this site I did a small bit of research.  What I found (on the Internet of course) is that making glass is like "baking a cake."  What I do know from experience is that if one doesn't follow an exact procedure for baking a cake by using precise measures of ingredients, and baking the cake at an exact temperature in a good oven, the quality of a cake can vary widely.  Naturally the quality of manufacturer's marks would vary. The best video I found on YouTube for making glass bottles is this one,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVKcISj2LfA  None of this information is probably new to anyone that collects bottles, but it's all new stuff to me.  The amount of information about glass bottles on the Internet is absolutely staggering and beyond my ability to take in, for example,  http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/bottlemarks/
 I know what Guam is all about Dave.  95 degree temperature and 95% humidity, day and night.  Those grenades are still capable of going off, so be very careful.

 Bob, I took another close look at bottle #16 with a magnifying glass.  I asked my wife to do the same thing, and then tell me what she saw.  We both see a "1" We took our time and moved the bottle around to check every angle.  Lighting when looking at these things makes a difference.  As I noted on my list I was unsure of the numbers on the manufacturers mark on #16, so all I can tell you is what we see.  1<(I)>45.  I absolutely believe you when you tell me there was no plant with a number 1, so there must be a number preceding the 1 that doesn't appear on the bottle.  Just to get a comparison of what a 7 looks like I took another look at bottle #21, which has a clear 7.  Bottle #16 is definitely a "1."  The left side of the "1" is very close to where the line is between two raised folds of the skirt, so maybe the preceding number just got melted into the glass and can't be seen.  The marks and letters and script on Bottle #16 look like they were melted a bit.  I don't think there was a problem with the mold the bottle came from, but there might have been an issue with overheating.  Is there a name for these "folds"? 

 Bill H


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## daven2nl (Dec 19, 2012)

FYI, I have an Oakland, CA embossed green coke bottle from 1944.  It clearly is marked 9D to the left of the OI logo.  So this odd number/letter combo is not just limited to clear bottles.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Dave ~

 A 5 by itself ( 7 <(I)> 5 ) to the right of the symbol is not that unusual on many Owens-Illinois bottles, including Coca Cola as well as other brands. Its more that just safe to assume its a 1945. Its the letters that baffle me and which are the main focus of my current research to try and determine what they might stand for. As always, the more bottles that can be examined, the more the odds work in our favor to eventually (and hopefully) make sense of things. 

 Bill ~

 What I call "mold-melt" of the embossing is fairly common, and not just on Owens-Illinois bottles. All brands and all bottles have been subjected to it over the years, some of which are so bad that almost nothing is distinguishable. As for the solo 1, are you fairly certain its the "preceeding" number that is missing and not the "following" number that is missing? If you take another look at the chart that shows both the start and close dates for the various plants, you'll see where a missing preceeding number just doesn't work. However, if its the "following/second" number that's missing, then there are various logical options. But if there just isn't enough room to squeeze in a second number to the right of the 1, then I'm baffled.

 I am familiar with both of the links you posted, and thought the following three pictures might might assist you and others to have another perspective as to what takes place during the process of a machine made bottle.

 Bob 

 This first picture is of a typical Coca Cola hobbleskirt mold. The only thing missing is the "finish" or "lip."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Next is phase 1-2 and 3 of the Automatic Bottle Machine (ABM) process ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

And the final phases 4-5 and 6 ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Bill ~

 Here's the chart again so you won't have to click/scroll back to find it. Notice the dates of the plants that have double-digits with a 1 being part of it. I suppose its possible (as there have been a few exceptions found) that this and all of the other charts are not 100% accurate. But I still consider this one as the best of those currently available.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

PS ~

 Bill

 As I said earlier, if you can't "squeeze" another number in to the "right" of the 1, then I'm baffled. (Lol)

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

Bob those two bottle machine photos are greatly appreciated, I'm sure I could have Googled the info and found it but I never took the time. I was curious as to how they got the same amount of liquid glass for the blow and the other details pictured, an eye opener for me...[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Jim / epackage

 You're welcome. I'll consider this one a freebie. However, you're next assignment is to find out more about those mysterious  ...

 "Special Service / Armed Forces" bottle caps. [sm=thumbup1.gif]

 Gracias' Amigo

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

It would appear that if we could find this book it may shed some light on things Bob...

"These caps were often found on soda and beer bottles that were shipped overseas to the troops. An example of this can be seen in Henri-Paul Enjames' book *"GI Collectors Guide" Volume II p139*."


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

Jim ~

 Do you mean this book? 

 Geeze-Louise! Do I have to do all of the work? (Just kidding / Lol )

 Thanks for the tip.

 Bob

 http://www.amazon.com/GI-Collectors-Guide-Vol-Operations/dp/2352500796/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355977797&sr=8-1&keywords=gi+collector%27s+guide


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## 42station (Dec 19, 2012)

64 faculties supplied U.S. servicemen and women with over 5 billion bottles of Coca Cola during WW 2.


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

I meant an online version that has been scanned for us to peruse...[]

 Unless we can find one at the local Barnes & Noble[]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

PS ~

 Check out the Royal Crown bottle on the cover ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> I meant an online version that has been scanned for us to peruse...[]
> 
> Unless we can find one at the local Barnes & Noble[]


 
 I hear ya. But what's this "we" stuff? Don't forget, Christmas is just around the corner ... hint-hint

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 19, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  42station
> 
> 64 faculties supplied U.S. servicemen and women with over 5 billion bottles of Coca Cola during WW2.


 
 42 ~

 Thanks. I have seen similar numbers. But please don't tell Dave about this or else he might "blow a cork" if he knew how many bottles he still has left to examine. (Lol)

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

Here's the page, it appears only the Cokes got this cap, the others seem like normal caps...


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

Don't forget the two pages of beer...


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## epackage (Dec 19, 2012)

.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Jim ~

 You amaze me! [sm=thumbup.gif]  

 But I won't ask how you do dat? I'll just enjoy it along with a great big ...

 THANK YOU!

 And for those who like readin' words and lookin' at pics, check these out ...

 http://www.nww2m.com/2011/08/coca-cola-the-pause-that-refreshed-2/

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/photographe_professionnel_namur/2493865217/sizes/z/in/photostream/


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## daven2nl (Dec 20, 2012)

Very cool and thanks for sharing the book pages - it is great to see what all the paper labels looked like, since they are all long gone now (just a pile of brown, clear, and green glass bottles all about the same size).

 Here's another one for Bob to ponder.  Bottle given to me from a ship crew that visited Ulithi, an atoll that was a major anchorage for the US Navy in the later years of the war.

 Typical clear 1944 PAT-D O-I bottle... with a "0" to the left of the MFR mark.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Summary / Observations / Food For Thought / Points To Ponder / Research / Speculation

 I added Dave's 'O' bottle to the list, which now comprises the following letters on the bottles examined so far ...

 A ~ B ~ C ~ D ~ H ~ K ~ L ~ N ~ O ~ P ~ R ~ S

 Another note of interest is, all of the wartime bottles listed thus far, except two of them, are clear glass and have no city/state on the base. The exceptions are Dave's two green bottles, both of which are dated 1944, and both of which are from Oakland, California. To date I am not aware of a single clear glass bottle that has a city/state on the base. If this is in error, please bring it to my attention. 

 I came across the following text (which I edited slightly) regarding a similar discussion on a different forum. Note where the individual speaks of two different bottles that were found at the same location. Both are dated 1944. Both have D-105529. But one is green and one is clear. But what's most interesting are the so called mystery numbers/codes. One has a single 8 while the other one has a 8A. Also note that the single 8 is on the green bottle and the 8A is on the clear bottle. 

 Especially note where he says both bottles were found in Brisbane, Australia. 

 "*Two bottles ... both dug here in Brisbane, Australia, near to where there used to be a U.S. camp in WWII. One is a green bottle with "Oakland Calif "stamped on the bottom. The patent number is D-105529.There is a stamp at the thinnest part of the skirt which reads 8 (symbol) 44 ... the other one dug from the same location is a clear bottle. It also has Patent number of D-105529, but instead of a single 8, it is marked with 8A (symbol) 44. The symbol looks like a circle with a flatter circle across it. The best I can describe it is, that it looks like the planet Saturn ... <(I)>*

 Note: Among other things, this is another example of a green wartime bottle from Oakland, California.  

 Here's where the speculation part comes in, which starts and ends with a question ...

 1. I wonder why all of the "green" wartime bottles are dated 1944 and have Oakland, California embossed on the base? 

 (Remember: We are still not sure who made the green, Agana, Guam bottle. Bill Porter said he suspects it was made by Chattanooga Glass and not Owens-Illinois)     

 2. Is it possibe the letters ( as in the case of the 8A Australian bottle ) represent where the bottles were primarily intended to be shipped, and that the 'A' on that particular clear glass bottle stands for Australia?

 3. But if this is even remotely possible, then how do we account for the multitude of different letters found on Dave's Pacific theatre bottles?

 So many observations and questions, but with so few bona fide answers. Its enough to drive a guy bonkers.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Clairification ...

 When I said "all of the green 1944 bottles have Oakland, California embossed on the base," I was referring only to those bottles found outside of the continental United States and not those distributed here on the homefront. Coca Cola was obviously being produced at home during the war years and there are jillions of those green bottles that have various cities/states embossed on the bases.

 One note of interest about Oakland, California is that it is located on the west coast and was nearest to the action in the Pacific. As for the bottles sent to the eastern action in Italy, France, etc;, there is not enough information available on those particular bottles that I am currently aware of to even comment on them.   

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Just for the record ... 

 Here's Bill Porter's list again regarding bottles in his collection that have number/letter combos. Note that three of the four have the letter 'A' but that none of them, including the 1944, is embossed on the base with Oakland, California.

 Petaluma, California ... 2A <(I)> 44 (1944) 
 Susanville, California .. 3A <(I)> 47 (1947) 
 Pocatello, Idaho ......... 8A <(I)> 50 (1950) 
 Reno, Nevada ............ B3 <(I)> 50 (1950) 

 Please note it has been over a year since I got this list from Bill and, if I recall correctly, he said all four of the bottles were green glass and not clear. The reason I am reposting this list is primarily to point out two things ...

 1. Irregardless of my recent "speculation," I seriously doubt that any of Bill's 'A' bottles have anything to do with Australia.

 2. The one from Pocatello, Idaho has the same 8A as the Australian bottle, but instead of being dated 1944 it is dated 1950.

 Question:  So what does this all mean and what am I trying to say?

 Answer: It means I'm trying to say I have a lot more questions than I do answers and that I believe we have only scratched the surface on being able to determine exactly what the letters represent. No doubt a great deal more research will likely be required before we figure it out. However, I am totally confident there is a simple answer, but finding that answer is definitely eluding me at the moment.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Another ... "Just For The Record / Summary"

 The following is based strictly on the bottles listed on this thread and is of the currently known letter/number combinations. I am listing them into two categories ~ Clear and Green. I intentionally did not included the dates so as to make the primary focus on the letters and numbers themselves (and some of examples with a letter only) with the hope that someone might see a pattern of some type among them. I did not include whether or not they have the large or small Trademark as I am not entirely sure about that distinction just yet. Nor did I seperate those marked with Oakland, California and those with other cities/states as I am not entirely sure about all of that, either. 

 Reminder of currently known letters ... A ~ B ~ C ~ D ~ H ~ K ~ L ~ N ~ O ~ P ~ R ~ S 

 First List ... *Clear* Glass ~ All made by Owens-Illinois ~ None have a city/state on the base. (Listed randomly).

 6N
 5R
 8N
 8A
 17B
 7B
 S
 15B
 H
 C
 18B
 5L
 2C
 8P
 8R
 O

 Second List ... *Green* Glass ~ All made by Owens-Illinois (Listed randomly). 

 9D
 5K
 2A
 3A
 8A
 B3

 Do you see a pattern? I don't! Not yet, anyway.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Now here's the same list again, but this time with the dates added ...

 First List ... Clear Glass ~ All made by Owens-Illinois ~ None have a city/state on the base. (Listed randomly). 

 6N ... 1945 
 5R ... 1945 
 8N ... 1945 
 8A ... 1944 
 17B . 1945 
 7B ... 1945 
 S ..... 1945 
 15B . 1945 
 H .... 1944 
 C .... 1945 
 18B . 1945 
 5L ... 1944 
 2C .. 1944 
 8P ... 1944 
 8R ... 1944 
 O ..... 1944 

 Second List ... Green Glass ~ All made by Owens-Illinois (Listed randomly). 

 9D ... 1944 
 5K ... 1944 
 2A ... 1944
 3A ... 1947
 8A ... 1950 
 B3 ... 1950

 And one I missed earlier ...

 S ..... 1945

 Do you see a pattern emerging yet? 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Of the 22 bottles listed ...

 9 are dated 1944
 10 are dated 1945
 1 is dated 1947
 2 are dated 1950


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## OsiaBoyce (Dec 20, 2012)

Bob................I have know idea as to what conclusion you are trying to come to, but has it ever occurred to you that the randomness of the numbers and letters could represent nothing more than 'lot numbers'?

 Just a thought.

 In case some who are unfamiliar with lot numbers are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_number


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Osia ~

 The conclusion that I and others hope to determine is "exactly" what the letter/number combos stand for? It is not a matter of "need to know" or anything like that, but rather just another challenge among many challenges involving soda bottle marks that have yet to be answered, especially involving WWII era bottles, which very little seems to be known or has ever been written about. In other words, its no big deal really, just "something to do" related to soda bottle collecting. As you know, I love a good challenge whether it is ever solved or not. No harm in that that I'm aware of. 

 As for the possibility of the combos being "lot numbers" and/or "codes," that is certainly a possibility. However, as the link you posted indicates, the term "lot" could mean any number of things, including ...

 1.  Identification.
 2.  Ingredients.
 3.  Labor.
 4.  Equipment Records.

 Not to mention other possibilities like ...

 5.  Number of bottles produced.
 6.  Where produced.
 7.  Etc; etc.

 I appreciate the participation and suggestion, as I'm sure the other contributors of this thread do, and I truly believe what you suggest is definitely well worth taking a closer look at. However, what you suggest (in my opinion) still falls into the category of guesswork and speculation, (which, as you know, I am a master at). But it still doesn't "confirm" what the combos stand for. For me, "confirmation" is the primary key to establishing any bona fide record. Thus, searching for that elusive confirmation is what spurs me onward with the hope of eventually finding the correct answers.

 Thanks again.

 Bob


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## 42station (Dec 20, 2012)

Does Coca-Cola have any type of department or personnel that could provide the information that you are looking for?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  42station
> 
> Does Coca-Cola have any type of department or personnel that could provide the information that you are looking for?


 
 42 ~

 That's a $64.00 question. My last inquiry resulted in them telling me they no longer have a department for such inquiries. At least not via Email. I suspect they get bombarded with thousands of inquiries these days and consequently had to pull the plug on it. It wouldn't surprise me the only way to get any specific information from the Coca Cola Company now would be if you had clout and possibly were an esblished author or the like researching a book. And even then it would likely be by appointment only. Please give it a try and see what results.

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Setting the letters aside for the moment and focusing on *just the numbers* from the list, and irregardless of the operation (start-close) dates from the various Owens-Illinois charts, which might or might not be accurate, I have discovered without exception that every one of the numbers corresponds with a Owens-Illinois plant that was once operated somewhere in the United States.

 They are ...

 Clear Bottles:

 6 = Charleston, WV
 5 = Charlotte, MI
 8 = Glassboro, NJ & New Orleans, LA 
 17 = Clarion, PA
 7 = Alton, IL
 15 = Okmulgee, OK & Waco, TX
 18 = Columbus, OH
 2 = Huntington, WV

 Green Bottles:

 9 = Streator, IL
 3 = Fairmont, WV

 Do you think this is just a coincedence or a possible connection?

 Bob


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## 42station (Dec 20, 2012)

Okay, I shall give it a try. They do have an archivist by the name of Philip F. Mooney, unless I am looking at old info.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

42 ~

 I hope you are successful and will look forward to hearing what transpires.

 Good luck and many thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Regarding the accuracy of the dates related to the various Owens-Illinois charts ...

 It has already been established in a previous forum discussion that the Los Angeles, California plant (#23) began operation sometime in the 1930s and not 1949 as every chart I am aware of shows it. Even Julian H Toulouse, who is considered the the godfather of such charts, list in his 1971 book "Bottle Makers And Their Marks" that the Los Angeles plant began operation sometime in the late 1940s. But this has since been proven to be incorrect by the examination of numerous bottles from L.A., some of which go as far back as 1937 and possibly even earlier. 

 Bob

 Here is a image from the Toulouse book that I scanned myself from a 1971 copy of his book I own. Notice the (----- for Los Angeles starts just to the left of 1950.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Here's the base on a local (San Diego) bottle I own and know for certain was made in 1939. Notice the 23 <(I)> 9 mark which indicates it was made at Owens-Illinois Los Angeles plant #23 in 1939. This is just one of many examples I am aware of confirming that the L.A. plant began operation prior to 1949.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

And here is the bottle itself, which is one of my rarest, most valuable, and favorite bottles of all time ...


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## 42station (Dec 20, 2012)

Bob...I got a response back from Coca-Cola and it sounds very promising. I can fwd it to your email if you want me to. Personally, I think this is the better route being that I know nothing of Coca Cola bottles and I would feel more comfortable, because you have the knowledge that I lack, if you directed me as to how I should proceed. Also, I was able to track down an email address and phone number for Philip Mooney though I have no idea if either is valid. I can send you that info as well.


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## daven2nl (Dec 20, 2012)

Looks like I missed a lot of discussion during my overnight hours.

 The name Philip Mooney sounds familiar to me, but I might be way off base.  I ran into a gentleman at the Pacific War Museum last week who was very interested in the Agana Guam coke bottles.  He told a story of how he purchased an old coke bottle mold and made/sold hundreds of candles using it until Coke called and told him to knock it off.  Anyway, he said he had contact info for the Coca-Cola historian - might be talking about the same person.  I've asked for followup but have not yet received a response.

 Regarding 1944 dated green bottles I've found here on Guam - it is not just limited to Oakland.  I have found green coke bottles, mixed in with the clears, from Oakland, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle.  All 1944.  It makes sense because these were all shipping ports used by the ships that supported the war effort.  I could see bottle orders being filled out with whatever they had (clear with green) also it could be that the green ones were loaded by the ships for their own crew's consumption that eventually got mixed in with the clear bottle stash.  

 I have found postwar bottles from 48, 50, and 52.  So it also makes sense that they reused the clear bottles post-war, replenishing their stock periodically in the later years.  It is quite possible that some of the bottles I am finding that were dated 1944 were not discarded until 1952, or later.  Many of the sites I go to however were abandoned shortly after the war so most were probably consumed by soldiers.

 There were 250K troops on Guam in 1945... lots of beverages were consumed.  I'm sure they reused bottles but when you are in a war zone, you let things slide.  Imagine what happened to the squad leader who got mad at his troops for throwing away soda bottles?  No one probably cared.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

Dave ~

 It will interest you to know that forum member 42station is in the process of contacting a Coca Cola archivist. Matt and I composed an inquiry together, which includes several pictures from this and the other thread. Although we did not mention your name or anything about this forum, I hope you don't mind our "borrowing" some of your pictures. We wanted to present it to you as a sort of Christmas gift in return for your generosity of having brought all of this to our attention in the first place. I am also sending the same inquiry to Phil Mooney and hopefully will hear back from both with answers to the numerous questions that Matt and I came up with. It might take a while before we hear back from anyone, but hopefully when we do it will be good news. One of the questions we asked, which included the list of known codes I posted earlier, was ...

 What do the number/letter codes embossed on the sides of the WWII era bottles stand for?

 Merry Christmas

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 20, 2012)

PS ~

 You are absolutely right about GI's tossing away a bunch of worthless Coca Cola bottles. I'm sure they had a lot more to deal with and on their minds than something as trivial as that.

 Bob


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## daven2nl (Dec 21, 2012)

Bob,

 Just got back from another jungle trip and got info from 20 or 30 more bottles.  New letter too - "Q".  I think you may have been confused by some of the data I presented earlier... for example the "18B" is in fact the embossing on the bottom of the bottle, in very small letters.  "18         B"  is what is on the bottom.  On the side is 18 <(I)> 45.  There are other numbers that make this up... you'll see the pattern when I present all the data.

 Ran into an oddball one.  A clear Chattanooga glass co bottle from 1941.  I didn't think the clear bottles were made until 43.  Nothing embossed on the base.  I brought it home with me; unfortunately the top is broken off.  This may either be a pre-war Guam bottle that made it into the supply chain with the 44/45 bottles after the liberation, or something else alltogether.  It was mixed in a pile of coke bottles from 1944/45, including several other Chattanooga bottles (the other parts of the pile were primarily Owens-Illinois bottles).

 -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Dave ~

 I consider your clairification of my confusion a blessing in disguise. Meaning, because the bottle with the 18 on the side and the 18B on the base is double marked, it leads me to believe that the 18 <(I)> 45 is a clear indication of a standard plant number reference, with the 18 in this case being for the Owens-Illinois plant in Columbus, Ohio. And because it has the same number 18 on the base, which I suspect is not a coincidence and is directly related to the other 18, meaning "both 18s" refer to the plant location, then that just leaves us with the letter B to figure out its meaning. 

 However, my theory will be seriously flawed if you reply back and say you have seen examples where the side code and base code on any given bottle are both different. For example: A side code of 18 <(I)> 45 but with a base code of 11K. Have you ever seen it ocurr where this was the case in that a bottle had two entirely different codes ... or rather, two entirely different "numbers?"

 Thanks.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Goof up deleation - I accidently hit the quote instead of edit. ???


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## daven2nl (Dec 21, 2012)

Lets see if this works... it may explode the forum.  Here is my data in raw form.... I've never seen and number/letter combos on the base.

 The "UNKNOWN" mfr mark relates to the Japanese bottle manufacturers on the later bottles Ive found.  All are hobbleskirts.  TRADE MARK (SMALL) is the smaller lettering on the Owens-Illinois bottles.  TRADE MARK (LARGE) refers to the larger lettering on the Chattanooga bottles.  The size difference is distinctive.  for my writeup, I will include photos of all examples.



 TYPE	COLOR	LEFT	MFR MARK	RIGHT	BASE EMBOSSING
 PAT D-105529	Green	32(?)	Owens-Illinois	44	OAKLAND CALIF (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Green	52	UNKNOWN	52	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	3	Owens-Illinois	48	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Green	9D	Owens-Illinois	44	OAKLAND CALIF (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Green	50	Owens-Illinois	44	PORTLAND ORE (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Green	11	Owens-Illinois	45	SEATTLE WASH (with "S" mark)
 PAT D-105529	Green	13	Owens-Illinois	45	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF (with "S" mark)
 PAT D-105529	Clear	5L	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	12C	Owens-Illinois	44	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8R	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	32	Owens-Illinois	44	OAKLAND CALIF (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Green	5K	Owens-Illinois	44	OAKLAND CALIF (with raised dot)
 PAT D-105529	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	6	UNKNOWN	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	15	Owens-Illinois	45	"A"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17  B"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	84	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"7  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	14	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	20	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	14(?)	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	15	Owens-Illinois	45	"15  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	1	Owens-Illinois	44	"H"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	11	Owens-Illinois	45	"C"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	2N	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	"18  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	10	Chattanooga	44	None
 TRADE MARK REGISTERED IN US PATENT OFFICE	Green	55	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	??	??	??	"7  B"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	17	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	25	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"C"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 			Owens-Illinois	44	SEATTLE WASH 
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	"18  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17  B"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	44	"P"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"10  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	1?	Owens-Illinois	45	"1? B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	"F"
 PAT D-105529	Green	14	Owens-Illinois	45	SEATTLE WASH
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	"H"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	47	UNKNOWN	50	None
 		19		43	
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	52	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	"C"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	13	Owens-Illinois	45	"13  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	16	Owens-Illinois	45	"16  B"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	28	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	7P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	4P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	9B	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	7P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	18	Owens-Illinois	46	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF "S"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8	Owens-Illinois	5	
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	"18  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	2M	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Clear	15	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	15	Owens-Illinois	45	"15  B"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8A	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	18	Owens-Illinois	45	SEATTLE WASH "S"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	12	L	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Green	40	UNKNOWN	50	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	10	L	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	16	L	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	9	N	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Green	22	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Green	8	n	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Green	67	UNKNOWN	50	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	6	N	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	11	L	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	43	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	12	L	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	11	N	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	11	N	54	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Green	34	UNKNOWN	52	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	3	Owens-Illinois	48	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	18	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	?	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	27	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	9	UNKNOWN	52	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	71	UNKNOWN	51	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	70	UNKNOWN	51	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	51	UNKNOWN	51	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	"A"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	21	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	11	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	15	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"7  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	"H"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	21	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	3	Chattanooga	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	49	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	14	Owens-Illinois	45	"14  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	49	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	21	Chattanooga	45	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6B	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	"6  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	"6  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	1	Owens-Illinois	45	"1  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6	Owens-Illinois	45	"6  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	13	Owens-Illinois	45	"13  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	"3  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	"3  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	"9  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	1	Owens-Illinois	45	"1  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"10  B"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	19	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	11	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	"18  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	8	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Green	65	UNKNOWN	50	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	18	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Clear	12	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	"C"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	16	Owens-Illinois	45	"16 B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"C"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	11	Owens-Illinois	45	"11 B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	2	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	6R	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Clear	13	Owens-Illinois	45	"A"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	18	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	14	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	12	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17 B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	"3 B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	8	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	"A"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	12	Owens-Illinois	45	"12  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5Q	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	4R	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	"2."	Owens-Illinois	44	"8" above "2."
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	15	Owens-Illinois	45	"15  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	"7." 	Owens-Illinois	45	"7.  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	2	Owens-Illinois	45	"2  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	"10  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	"7."	Owens-Illinois	45	"7.  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	7	Owens-Illinois	45	"7  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	2	Owens-Illinois	45	"H"
 PAT D-105529	Green	25	Owens-Illinois	45	OAKLAND CALIF "S"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	1B	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	10	Owens-Illinois	45	OAKLAND CALIF
 PAT D-105529	Clear	1	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6B	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	"3."	Owens-Illinois	45	OAKLAND CALIF
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	6	Chattanooga	41	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	7C	Owens-Illinois	44	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Clear	3G	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6L	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	"7."	Chattanooga	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8L	Owens-Illinois	44	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Green	28	Owens-Illinois	44	OAKLAND CALIF
 PAT D-105529	Clear	8P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 PAT D-105529	Green	12	Owens-Illinois	45	OAKLAND CALIF
 PAT D-105529	Clear	6P	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	10	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	33	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	3	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	37	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	26	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	42	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	22	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	25	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	31	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	Single raised dot
 PAT D-105529	Green	29?	Owens-Illinois	45	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF
 PAT D-105529	Green	5	Owens-Illinois	45	SAN FRANCISCO CALIF
 TRADE-MARK (large)	Clear	52	Chattanooga	45	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"17  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	13	Owens-Illinois	45	"13  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	"2."	Owens-Illinois	45	"2.  B"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	9	Owens-Illinois	45	"9.  B"
 PAT D-105529	Clear	4	Owens-Illinois	45	None
 PAT D-105529	Clear	2A	Owens-Illinois	44	None
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	5	Owens-Illinois	45	"G"
 TRADE-MARK (small)	Clear	17	Owens-Illinois	45	"S"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 21, 2012)

Dave ~

 I'm short on time but big on THANK YOU'S!

 (Great info!) << ............ >>  (See Below) 

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

Dave ~

 I randomly selected the following bottle from your list as an example, with the hope you can clairfy a couple of things about it that will also pertain to many of the other bottles ...

 Sample Bottle:  TRADE-MARK (small) Clear 13 Owens-Illinois 45 "13 B"

 I am assuming part of the embossing you refer to looks something like this ... 13 <(I)> 45

 1. In your opening paragraph you said ...

 "I've never seen any number/letter combos on the base."

 2. And yet your columns are titled ... (which I edited slightly and also added the marks from the random bottle above)

 TYPE  ~  COLOR  ~  LEFT MARK = *13*  ~  MFR MARK = *<(I)>* ~  RIGHT MARK = *45* ~  BASE EMBOSSING = *13B*

 Thus, I'm a little confused.

 3. Where exactly is the 13B located on this sample bottle? On the base or on the side?

 4. Or am I totally misinterpreting  your data?

 Thanks a lot.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

PS ~

 Perhaps my confusion regarding the 13B involves what I call the "Heel" and you call the "Base."

 My difinitions of the two terms are as follows ...

 HEEL = The bottom portion (outer rim) of a bottle but still on the side.

 BASE = The flat portion of a bottle where it sits/stands/rest upon.

 Bob 

 Here's an example of what I mean by "Heel"


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

Here's another example showing both the "Heel" and the "Base" marks. (Actually, the heel is lower near the bottom of the rim but this is the best example I currently have. But hopefully you get the general idea).


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## daven2nl (Dec 22, 2012)

Bob,

 You are correct in that it looks like 13 <(I)> 45

 With regards to the 13B on the base.... the numbers and letter are well separated.  Here is an example:






 On the skirt, is 18 <(I)>  45 in this case.  This trait is only with some Owens-Illinois clear bottles from 1945 with the small "TRADE MARK" embossing.




> ORIGINAL:  SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Dave ~
> 
> ...


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## daven2nl (Dec 22, 2012)

Also, none of the coke bottles I have found have anything embossed on the heel.  Only on the base.

 Heading back out in the jungle today to hopefully hike about 1/2 mile of an old road that was abandoned just after WW2.  Hoping for some more coke bottle success.  The southern terminus of this abandoned road has bomb craters, Japanese and American bottles, shell casings (ammunition), canteens, ETC.


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## daven2nl (Dec 22, 2012)

Couple more photos:

 The single raised dot I reference:






 The difference between "TRADE MARK" (small) on the Owens-Illinois bottles and "TRADE MARK" (Large) on the Chattanooga glass company bottles:






 The bottle on the left:  2N <(I)> 45 (no base embossing), the one on the right 19 @ 45 (where the @ is a C in a circle) (no base embossing).  Letter size is definite in every case depending on the manufacturer.  I can spot a Chattanooga glass bottle in a pile of Owens-Illinois bottles just through this trait.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 22, 2012)

Dave ~

 Thanks. One picture is worth a thousand words. 

 There seems to be a consistancy with the numbers on the sides matching those on the bases, which I continue to suspect are plant numbers. Based on everything I have read, it appears the majority (if not all) of the clear bottles were the one's used/filled at the 64 various war zone bottling plants. And even though I feel we are getting close to something, there are still some missing pieces to the puzzle here, such as, what do the dang letters stand for?

 Bob

 Earlier, I believe someone asked about seeing a picture of one of the bottling plants. The only one I could find is currently on ebay. But I'm not entirely sure if it's showing the washing stage or the filling stage. Notice the bottles are upside down. Nor am I sure if they are clear or green bottles. Also notice the wood crate sitting on the floor.

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181031810164?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 [ Morocco - 1943 ]


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Bob,

 Thanks for the picture of the 3-part bottle mold.  I thought that was what one looked like, but I just couldn't find a picture.  I took another look at Bottle #16.  There is not enough room between the one and the left edge of the Owens-Illinois logo to squeeze in even another 1, let alone a larger number.  I don't have another bottle with a 1 on it so I can't compare 1s to see if there is a difference.  The 1 on my bottle is a straight vertical line, with no little line at the top or bottom.  It's parallel to the crease in the skirt "material." I see no indication of a number preceeding the 1.  I even gently ran my fingernail over everthing with the thought that although I couldn't see something I might be able to feel it.  Nothing there.  The mold-melt on the logo is severe enough so that if I didn't have another bottle to compare I woluldn't be able to discern the Owens-Illinois logo.  The "1" is definitely not a flaw in the glass.  I'll try in the next day or so to see if I can take a picture of it, but I'm not sure my simple camera can take picture very close.  My son just came up for Christmas, so before I tell him what I think it is I'll ask him what he thinks it is.

 Bill


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## OsiaBoyce (Dec 23, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: daven2nl
> 
> Lets see if this works... it may explode the forum. Here is my data in raw form.... I've never seen and number/letter combos on the base.
> 
> ...


 
 I hope like hell someone had that 'Dragon' software or whatever ya call it instead of sitting at a keyboard and hammering all this out.

 Call me lost in a sea of numbers, but what kind of conclusion are yall hunting for?

 Bob, glad to see you have a couple of Sancho Panzas for your quest.[][][]


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Bob,

 I said in an earlier post that I had a wood Coca Cola wood crate that I picked up, along with 24 bottles, on the North Slope.  I said I picked it up 20 years ago but it was actually 30 years ago.  I have 13 other photos of the crate, but it's taken me an hour to get just this far in trying to figure out how to send them.  There are some interesting things about this crate that I will discuss in another post.

 Bill


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Bill ~

 Regarding the number 1 ...

 Because of having found one error on the various Owens-Illinois charts, which is the fact that Los Angeles plant #23 opened in the early 1930s and not 1949, then there is a possibility that some of the other dates are incorrect, including plant #1 in Toledo, Ohio. The one chart shows Toledo in operation between 1930 and 1937. Because your bottle seems to have a definite number 1 in the plant location position, that example in itself might be enough to warrant a close examination of the various charts to determine once and for all whether they are accurate or not. In fact, this might be a good topic to discuss in a seperate thread, which I might initiate myself eventually. In the meantime, I am going to consider the possibility that your ... 1 <(I)> 44 ... is a 1944 bottle made at plant #1 in Toledo, Ohio.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

PS ~

 Even if the charts are somewhat correct and the Toledo plant did cease full operation in 1937, who can say for certain they didn't re-open for a short time to help supply the demand for wartime Coca Cola bottles? At the moment I don't have the dates available, but I do know that Toledo was the corporate headquarters for a number of years. I have never read anywhere saying they demolished the factory itself, which could very well have remained intact but idle for years and years. Again, more research is required to determine these possibilities.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Just the tip of the iceberg regarding how long Owens-Illinois was located in Toledo, Ohio ...

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens-Illinois

 The company's headquarters were previously located in One Sea Gate, Toledo, Ohio, a local landmark. The headquarters were moved in late 2006 to the Levis Commons complex in Perrysburg, Ohio.


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Bob,

 I asked my son to take a took a look at the #16 bottle and tell me what he saw.  I showed him another bottle with good numbers so he would know where to look and to give him an idea what to look for.  He told me right off the bat iit was a "1."  I suppose the year number could be 44, but it looks like a "45."  Again, the bottle has that "mold-melt" so I suppose anything is possible.  If you could post an Owens-Illinois clear glass bottle with a "1" then I could do a comparison, but other than that I don't know what to say.  It seems unlikely the bottle could be a 44 since all other bottles where the numbers can be seen, with the exception of one (a 46), are definitely 45s.  The last two and separate numbers of the requisition number stamped on the wood case is "45." 

 Bill H


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Osia ~

 I can't speak for everyone, but my personal interest involved with this discussion is with the hope of eventually finding answers to the following questions ... with a specific focus on the Owens-Illinois circa 1941-43 through 1951 *Clear Glass* Coca Cola bottles which are typically referred to as WWII bottles, and which have the words Trade Mark embossed below the script but that do not have the city/state embossed on the bases ...

 Questions:  

 1. Where were the clear glass bottles made?
 2. How many different glass factories made the clear glass bottles? 
 3. Were the clear glass bottles intended only for shipment to GI's during WWII?
 4. Why were they made of clear glass instead of the typical green color?
 5. Why don't the majority (if not all) of the clear glass bottles have cities/states embossed on the bases?
 6. What do the so called embossed codes stand for? Especially the *letters*?
 7. Etc; etc.

 If anyone can direct me to a website or book that has the answers to the above questions, I will glady resourse it and share that information here.

 And as to "why" this information interest me? The answer is because I am the curious type who loves doing soda bottle research, especially when it involves aspects of the hobby that are currently unknown.  

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Bill ~

 44 /1944 was a typo error on my part. I remembered it incorrectly and did not scroll back to double-check the date before I posted my reply. I stand corrected. 

 1 <(I)> 45

 Thanks.

 Bob

 If someone doesn't beat me to it, I will post a picture of an Owens-Illinois number 1 shortly.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Here's a picture that will hopefully do for now, which shows both a 7 and a 1

 Most of the pitures with 1's on the base that I have in my photo gallery appear to be slanted at the top. Some of them have the line across the base and some don't. So I don't think there ever was a standard number 1 and that it varied from one plant to another.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

And here's a number 1 with a line across it's base ...


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Bob,

 The "1" I have on #16 looks like the 1 on the Moroline bottle, without the period of course.  It also looks like the 1 on the second bottle, but without the line across the base. 

 Bill H


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  Bill H
> 
> Bob,
> 
> ...


 
 Bill ~

 Based on your empirical observations, I see no reason to believe it is anything but a definite number 1  [sm=thumbup.gif]

 But whether it represents the Toledo, Ohio plant or something else, still remains to be seen ... which I am currently researching.

 Thanks

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Regarding the various *letters* ...

 The only reference I have been able to find so far regarding Owens-Illinois using letters is in this Bill Lockhart article (whose link was posted earlier but never fully discussed) where he states ...

 http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm

 "The Owens-Illinois mark on Coke bottles changed to the Oval-I mark about 1954 (when it changed on other bottles - see above). The final mark-related change on Coke bottles occurred by at least 1953 (probably in 1951), when Owens-Illinois began placing a smaller single letter above the manufacturer's mark to identify the plant making the bottle. Factories and marks included A (Alton, Illinois); B (Bridgeton, New Jersey); C (Charlotte, Michigan); F (Fairmount, West Virginia); S (Streator, Illinois); and W (Waco, Texas) (Porter 1996:4)."

 However, it is not conclusive (and a bit confusing) because ...

 1. The dates mentioned are 1951 and 1953 and not the 1940s.
 2. None of the letters jive with Dave's list on page 5 of this thread.

 For example: 

 TRADE-MARK (small) Clear 7 Owens-Illinois 45 "7 B" 

 In this example from Dave's list, the number 7 stands for plant #7 in Alton, Illinois. But Dave's B does not jive with Bill Lockhart's B, which he indicates it is for the plant (#14) in Bridgeton, New Jersey. According to Bill Lockhart, the Alton, Illinois plant (#7) letter is an A.

 Please note, (as I said above) the only reason I am posting this information (despite its confusion) is because it is the *only* reference I have been able to find so far that mentions anthing about "letter codes" and that it might lead to something else later on.

 Bob


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Here a three more photos of my wood case.  The wood is most likely pine, and the nails holding the thing together are flat head nails, probably 4 penny.  These cases could certainly be cranked out on an assembly line by the tons.  The nails were driven in by hand, and the tips of the nails where they poked through into the box were peened over.  If someone every decided to mass produce replicas it would be fairly easy to do.  Table saw with a couple of blades, one a dado to cut the slots where the dividers insert into, and a router to make the hand hold openings.  On each end of the case is a brand made with a hot branding iron of some sort.  The brand was put on before the red stamping, so my assumption is the brand is the brand of the company that manufactured the case.  The brand is a straight line above which is an inverted V.  The guys that put these things together were pretty good because there are no hammer marks around the nails.

 Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Another photo

 Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Oops, I'll try again.  Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Got it figured out.  Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

I am now angry with myself.  Here is another photo.  Bill H


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## Bill H (Dec 23, 2012)

Final photo of the crate.  Bill H


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Bill ~

 Thanks for the pictures of the wood crate. Good job. And don't be too hard on yourself, we all forget ocassionally to put the little x in the embed box before posting pictures. If it ever happens again you can view your reply before posting it and will have about five minutes do do any necessary editing.

 Regarding your crate ...

 I am starting a collection of original WWII related Coca Cola pictures, which includes both bottles and crates. And even though they take time to find and are far and few between, I have found some interesting one's including the picture below. I'm not sure of the exact date on this particular picture but it was described as being from WWII. It is the closest I have on file that looks similar to yours. If it is similar to yours, the only thing missing on yours is the metal strap. Are there any indents on yours where a strap might have been?

 I know for certain that at one time Owens-Illinois had their own "Box Division" where they made their own crates and cardboard boxes. So it is highly possible that most (if not all) of the various original containers we've been seeing were in fact made by Owens-Illinois themselves and not from an ouside source.

 [ Notice in this picture that the words Coca Cola on the end of the one crate are horizonal and in block letters ]


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

PS ~

 Also notice in the picture I just posted that not all of the crates are identical to one another. There are obvious variations, including the lettering as well as some that appear to have different and/or possibly no metal straps.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm still researching the operation dates for the Owens-Illinois Toledo, Ohio plant, and althought the following is kinda weak, it does indicate that "something" was going on in Toledo in the 1940s.

 I intentionally highlighted *1946* and the word *plant's*. I realize this doesn't confirm a "bottling plant" in 1946, but nor does it say Corporate Headquarters, either.

 Bob 


 http://www.utoledo.edu/library/canaday/HTML_findingaids/MSS-182.html

 Biographical Sketch:

 Joseph M. Jackson was born on September 25, 1917, in Kenova, West Virginia. In 1940 he got a job working at the Owens-Illinois Glass factory in Huntington, West Virginia, and soon became the plant photographer. About *1946* he was transferred to Owens-Illinois in Toledo as a photographer in the *plant's* extensive Film Division. Later he became the manager of the Glass Container Divisionâ€™s photographic department located in the Owens-Illinois Duraglas Center downtown. Jackson died in Toledo on September 3, 1957, due to a congenital heart condition. He was survived by his wife, Josephine; his daughter, Sara; his mother, Mrs. Harry McFann; and his sister, Mrs. Donald Watts.


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## OsiaBoyce (Dec 23, 2012)

> ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
> 
> Osia ~
> 
> ...


 
 That's cool, cause I was wondering..................................and knowing how you go off on a mission.


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## epackage (Dec 23, 2012)

Has this link been posted and have you read thru it yet Bob?

 http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  epackage
> 
> Has this link been posted and have you read thru it yet Bob?
> 
> http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/


 
 Jim ~

 Thanks for bringing that to our attention again.

 But, yes ... That link was initially posted by me on page #2 - reply #35. Although it contains some helful information regarding the Trade Mark and various dates, I think one of the reasons it fell out of favor (at least with me) is because it uses the word "*Theories*." What I am looking for personally are "facts" and "confirmations" not theories.

 Here's another one of my WWII Coca Cola related pictures. You guys are really going to yell at me if I go off on a tangent and try to figure out what all of the stenciling stands for. On second thought, maybe that isn't a bad idea after all ... hmmm, I wonder?

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Osia ~

 I just wanted to acknowledge your use of the word "*cool*," especially in relation to me, which is rarely the situation. Anyway, thanks for that. You made my day!

 Merry Christmas and enjoy all of that Fanta.

 Bob


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## epackage (Dec 23, 2012)

Sorry Bob, I didn't want to read thru the whole post again because it didn't really draw my interest... Good luck with your query


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 23, 2012)

Jim ~

 No apologies necessary. I think the main thing for me are the so called code "letters." They intrigue me because I know they were intentional and have some specific meaning. But finding that meaning is the challenging part and what keeps me coming back for more.

 Bob


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## Bill H (Dec 24, 2012)

Bob,

 The cases with straps were interesting, so I looked at my case to see if there were strap marks imbedded into the wood, either on the ends of the case or the bottom.  There weren't.  I can only assume my case at one time had a wood top, but I don't know.

 The markings on my case are similar to the markings on the case in your photo.  The markings on my case are first, the top line:  REQN. 04-197-0-16547-45 and second, the line underneath: J.C.Q.M.D. P.O, 18418-C-VSD-14.  REQN must stand for Requisition Number, and P.O. must stand for Purchase Order.

 I believe, although I don't know, that J.C.Q.M.D. stands for Jersey City Quartermaster Depot (#7 on the below list)  Here is a list of naval military installations in Jersey City during the war:

Jersey City, New Jersey

 Army Market Center, Jersey City, N.J. 
 Navy Cost Inspector, Westinghouse ELectric Elevator Co., Jersey City, N.J. 
 Navy market Office, Union Terminal Cold Storage Co., Jersey City, N.J. 
 Navy market Officer, Jersey City, N.J. 
 Westinghouse Electric Elevator Co., Jersey City, N.J. 
 Resident Naval Inspector of Ordnance, Westinghouse ELectric Elevator Co., Jersey City, N.J. 
 Jersey City Quartermaster Depot, Jersey City, N.J. 
 Naval Training School (Supplemental) (MK. 50 Director), Westinghouse Electric Elevator Co., Jersey City, N.J. [/ol]
 I found two references to JCQMD on the Internet for the Jersey City Quartermaster Depot.  It might be interesting to do more reasearch, but not a productive management of my time.  

 During the war the Army had a large presence in Alaska, but with one exception the northern most installation I could find was in Fairbanks.  The Aleutians had quite a bit of Army, including Dutch Harbor.  The one exception to Fairbanks was Point Barrow, where the Army did have a radar station before the end of the war.  In 1954 the DEW line was established, and 7 DEW line stations were completed on the North Slope in 1957.  One of those stations was next to the Eskimo village of Kaktovik.  I've been to Kaktovik.  It's quite possible my case of Coke was dug out of some warehouse after the war and sent to one of the DEW line stations, maybe the one near Kaktovik.  The liklihood of digging further into this stuff and coming up with something meaningful is probably nil, and only of interest to me.

 Wishing everyone on this site a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!  I've enjoyed the my experience talking with a nice group of people.  All the best.

 Bill H


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 24, 2012)

Bill ~

 Your contributions to this discussion are to be commended and have opened up a variety of aspects worthy of more research. Its not every day we have the opportunity to discuss bottles ranging from the frozen tundra of the north to the tropical islands of the south. But its not just the bottles themselves that make this sort of discussion interesting, it also includes individuals like ourselves who share a common interest and who are attracted to forums like this one to share those interest. This might sound a little hokey, but I liken the collecting of bottles somewhat to that of forming friendships. In both cases if they are not properly cared for they can become cracked and sometimes even broken. So it is with this spirit of comaradery that I wish you and every other member on this forum the best and hope you all have a wonderful Christmas experience.

 Bob


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## hemihampton (Dec 24, 2012)

Here's some military beer cans found on a military base in Alaska. The coke bottles were probably left behind. LEON.


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## daven2nl (Dec 26, 2012)

I got an email back from a descendant of Chester Butler, the original Coca-Cola bottler here on Guam.  Apparently there are none of these "AGANA GUAM" embossed coke bottles in the family.  This may ultimately be a very, very rare bottle (makes me wonder if any exist in non-broken condition).  I will try to stop by the Butler family store this weekend to chat with him.

 I still am wondering about this Chattanooga Glass Company clear coke bottle dated 1941 that I found.  It was mixed in a big pile of bottles from 44/45.  I didn't think they made the clear coke bottles until 1943.  Could this be some sort of misprint, or is this one of the pre-war bottles mixed in with later ones, or does this add to the overall mystery of the Wartime Coke bottle production story?  It is very clearly embossed on the skirt with 6 @ 41 where the "@" is a C in a circle.  It only has "TRADE MARK" embossed below the Coca-Cola logo which matches 1945 Chattanooga wartime coke bottles, and nothing on the base.  Did they make clear coke bottles for overseas use prior to the start of WW2?


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 26, 2012)

> ORIGINAL:  daven2nl
> 
> I got an email back from a descendant of Chester Butler, the original Coca-Cola bottler here on Guam.  Apparently there are none of these "AGANA GUAM" embossed coke bottles in the family.  This may ultimately be a very, very rare bottle (makes me wonder if any exist in non-broken condition).  I will try to stop by the Butler family store this weekend to chat with him.
> 
> I still am wondering about this Chattanooga Glass Company clear coke bottle dated 1941 that I found.  It was mixed in a big pile of bottles from 44/45.  I didn't think they made the clear coke bottles until 1943.  Could this be some sort of misprint, or is this one of the pre-war bottles mixed in with later ones, or does this add to the overall mystery of the Wartime Coke bottle production story?  It is very clearly embossed on the skirt with 6 @ 41 where the "@" is a C in a circle.  It only has "TRADE MARK" embossed below the Coca-Cola logo which matches 1945 Chattanooga wartime coke bottles, and nothing on the base.  Did they make clear coke bottles for overseas use prior to the start of WW2?


 
 Dave ~

 http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/

 Even though this is the third time this link has been posted, and even if it is a little inconclusive, it's probably still the best one available regarding wartime Coca Cola bottles. However, I just realized a few things about it that I missed previously, which are ...

 1.  Yes, its a Coca Cola website.
 2.  Yes, it indicates the first clear glass bottles were introduced in 1943.

 But ...

 3.  Notice where Robert W. Woodruff made his initial announcement in December of 1941.
 4.  Also notice where it says ..."Before 1944, small portable bottling units, capable of being hauled behind jeeps, were used."

 However ... 

 5. Where does it specify which company, Owens-Illinois or the Chattanooga Glass, provided the various mobile bottling plants? 

 Which means ...

 6.  We might be assuming it was only Owens-Illinois who sent those initial bottling units.

 When in fact ...

 7.  Chattanooga Glass might have been the first one over there "ahead" of Owens-Illinois.
 8.  Which, if true, might explain your 1941 clear glass Chattanooga bottle.

 Bob

 [ Copy/pasted from link above. Please show me one place in this or the rest of the text that the link contains where it mentions either Owens-Illinois or Chattanooga Glass ] 

 ~*~     

 December 1941- Robert W. Woodruff announced The Coca-Cola Companyâ€™s wartime policy: â€œWe will see that every man in uniform gets a bottle of Coca-Cola for five cents wherever he is and whatever it costs the Company.â€

 In 1943, General Dwight D. Eisenhower sent a telegram requesting 10 Mobile Bottling Plants be sent to the European war front. The Cablegram also requested that three million bottles and complete equipment necessary for producing the same quantity twice monthly be sent. Before 1944, small portable bottling units, capable of being hauled behind jeeps, were used. By 1944, more permanent installations showed up in the Pacific and European War Theaters. Bottle production began in 1943. The bottles were to be made using clear glass and no City/State markings on the bottom.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 26, 2012)

For future reference ...

 Here's what appears to be fairly concise list of every glass maker that made Coca Cola bottles. 

 http://www.glassbottlemarks.com/glass-manufacturers-marks-on-coke-bottles/

 Notice where it says ...

 â–  G23 (or similar letter/number, lightly embossed along the lower heel) ... Graham Glass Company, Evansville, Indiana. (Not to be confused with the â€œG-numberâ€ [bottle style/design codes] seen on the base of many Owens-Illinois soda bottles).


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## daven2nl (Dec 27, 2012)

The problem with the 1941 theory that Guam was taken by the Japanese in the 1st days of the war (December 1941), and was held by the Japanese until the Marines and Army landed on the 21st of July in 1944.  It just seems unlikely that a stateside bottle from 1941 would sit around that long.  It makes more sense that it was a pre-war shipment of replacement bottles to Guam, but that raises just as many different questions.


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 27, 2012)

Dave ~ 

 I agree ... more mystery, more questions. 

 Based on everything I've read regarding the clear glass Coca Cola bottles from the early to late 1940s that have the word Trademark embossed on them, all of them were intended for use by the military during WWII. I don't recall ever reading anything that said those bottles were ever used in the states or anywhere else or for any other purpose. And because you said the Chattanooga Glass bottle you found in "Guam"   ...

 "is very clearly embossed on the skirt with 6 @ 41 where the "@" is a C in a circle." 

 ... then there has to be some logical explanation as to how it ended up in Guam. And even though it is the only one you have found so far among hundreds/thousands of other non-1941 bottles, we know it can't possibly be the only 1941 clear glass Chattnooga bottle that was ever made. There have to be others! Maybe not in Guam, but certainly "somewhere."

 Even though we may never know just how accurate the information is from the link I posted earlier, I can't help but wonder about where it states ...

 December 1941 - Robert W. Woodruff announced The Coca-Cola Companyâ€™s wartime policy: â€œWe will see that every man in uniform gets a bottle of Coca-Cola for five cents wherever he is and whatever it costs the Company.â€ 

 Who knows, maybe its a typo and whoever wrote it actually meant to say December of 1942 or 1943. However ...

 1. Because it does say 1941.
 2. And because you found a 1941 bottle in WWII war zone.

 ... then there is a piece (or pieces) of the puzzle that we're missing. ???

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 27, 2012)

PS ~

 Since the order of the day seems to involve a certain measure of theorizing, I have a theory of my own regarding Dave's 1941 bottle that might explain its presence in Guam.

 Let's assume for the moment that the Robert W. Woodruff December 1941 date is accurate. What if that so called order from Woodruff went out immediately and the Coca Cola company instructed Chattanooga Glass to start production of the clear glass bottles as early as the second week of December 1941, and that by the end of December those bottles were on their way to various areas of the war, including Guam and other Pacific islands. (Remember, Chester Butler already had a bottling plant located in Guam at the time which he obtained the Coca Cola franchise for as early as 1923-24). Maybe its possible that Butler received one of the first shipments of clear glass bottles "before" the Japanese took over the island. And because those first shipments of clear glass bottles were possibly a rush order and produced in limited quanities, then this might explain why so few of them survived and are found today.

 Please note: This is only a theory.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 27, 2012)

Before Dave or anyone else has the opportunity to correct me, and because of the following reference to December *8*, 1941 ..

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guam_(1941)

 The First Battle of Guam, was an engagement during the Pacific War in World War II, and took place on 8 December 1941 on Guam in the Mariana Islands between the Empire of Japan and the United States. The American garrison was defeated by Japanese forces which resulted in an occupation until the Second Battle of Guam in 1944.

 ... I wish to offer theory #2.

 Since Dave's bottle "is clearly marked 1941" and obviously made at that time, and because it was found in Guam, then my new theory is that it somehow got mixed in with a shipment of later bottles (1944-1945) and mysteriously ended up in Guam "after" the Second Battle in 1944. Which might explain why they are so rare on Guam and why Dave has only found one so far.

 Until something presents itself to refute it, I am sticking with the possibility that the clear glass Chattanooga bottles were intended for the war and not for homefront distribution. But I suppose only with time and more research will we ever know for certain.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 27, 2012)

Remember my saying earlier that the December 1941 Robert W. Woodruff announcement might be a "typo?" Well, if the information on the following link is accurate, then the earlier Woodruff statement is just that - a typo. 

 I'm not 100% certain this is an official Coca Cola website, but I believe it is. If so, then who would know better than the Coca Cola Company itself as to what happened when?

 Speed scroll to the *1940s* section, which is about half-way down the page. Especially notice the text under *1943*. (And be sure to "slide-bar" to the right for the second half of the text).

  http://cdn.journey.tccc.psddev.com/a7/5f/95ccf35a41d8adaf82131f36633c/Coca-Cola_125_years_booklet.pdf

 So perhaps it was in 1943 and not 1941 when Woodruff made his well-known announcement about providing GIs with a bottle of Coca Cola for only a nickle.

 Of course, this still doesn't solve the mystery surrounding Dave's 1941 bottle. But, then again, that's a horse of a different color that will likely require a lot more research.

 Bob


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 27, 2012)

I couldn't resist sharing this picture from my WWII Coca Cola photo gallery that I'm constantly adding to. All I can say about it is "*wow*" in addition to asking if anyone can explain to me the "*how*" and "*why*" of it?

 Bob

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/kt/71461392/in/set-111219


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## SODAPOPBOB (Dec 28, 2012)

I did some rough math/guessing on the stockpile of bottles picture and came up with the following ...

 1.  Fifteen rows of bottles front to back.
 2.  One hundred individual bottles left to right.
 3.  Fifty individual bottles top to bottom.
 4.  Equals *75,000* individual bottles total.

 I'd say the answer to my question as to *how* they were stacked is obvious - by hand. But as to *why* they were stacked individually and not in cases, and *what* their eventual purpose was to be, I don't have a clue. I'm also curious as to whether those are walls in the back and on the left or large crates with writing on them?

 Bob


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## daven2nl (Jan 13, 2013)

I don't mean to troll up an old thread, but I had a couple new things come up.

 (1)  I got back to the museum and got another look at the AGANA GUAM embossed bottle.  It is definitely a PAT-D bottle from Chattanooga Glass Company, but I can't read the date off the skirt.  I'm looking through glass at it, so I can't get a close look.  It is on display at the museum behind large glass panes that are not easily removed - so access is difficult (on purpose).  I hope to get a look at it sometime in the future, to determine the date and to get some better photos.

 (2)  I have a clear coke bottle, not PAT-D but "TRADE MARK" only, dated 1941.  I think this may be a pre-war Guam coke bottle but a newer bottle than the ones embossed AGANA GUAM.  Question:  Do most foreign Coca-Cola bottles from this era only have "TRADE MARK" embossed on them?  Since Patents would not mean much outside of the USA?  Also, weren't many foreign coke bottles from this era clear and not green?  That would explain my finding.  There is no embossing on the base (bottom) of the bottle.

 (3)  Yesterday I came across a new manufacturer's mark.  1945 clear Coca Cola hobbleskirt.  The manufacturer's mark is the capital letter "L" with a dot just to the right of the "L".  On the skirt:  1 L' 45

 This is a new one for me, and in more than 260 clear WW2 era coke bottles surveyed, the first one I have found with this marking.

 -Dave


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## hemihampton (Aug 8, 2013)

ANY UPDATES????????


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## daven2nl (Aug 10, 2013)

I've had a bit of a medical hiccup (good prognosis) so my exploring has been limited.  I'm still searching, and have found a couple pre-war Coke bottles, from 1940 and a German 1928 (Ruhrglas) coke bottle but none with the Agana embossing.

 I'm about to move to a new house located further south on Guam, in an area that saw significantly more pre-war human activity.  New virgin territory for me to explore.  I've not given up yet!


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## duanekiszak (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

I am stationed on Guam and an avid diver. Recently came across a lot of bottles in the harbor. I have quite a few coke bottles and we have been finding coke bottles dated from 1940 to 1946 green and clear. None from Guam though, at least not that I know of. The clear ones (mostly 1945's) the size of the writing and style varies, even the clearness of the glass as some have a dark tint to them. Some the glass isn't so clear. At first I thought it was because of coral growing on them or the sand in the bottom scratching them, but there are some I remove the coral and they are clear and look brand new.


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## hemihampton (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Interesting. Can you post a pic of some of the bottles you found? THANKS, LEON.


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## duanekiszak (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Here are some of the them. I tried to get a variety. There is a 1944 and 1946 in there also. Some of them have a dark tint, some almost frosted, and some are clear. The dark tint ones seem to larger lettering. Think they are different manufacturing.  The dark one in the middle has a 7L'45 o it. The rest have the duraglass on them.


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## duanekiszak (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Here is one more picture of a couple of more.


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## hemihampton (Dec 20, 2013)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Do you got any extras for sale or trade? LEON.


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## daven2nl (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Duane, Those are all very nice examples of WW2 era coke bottles.  My gut feeling is that they were also used in the immediate post war years also (returned/refilled).  There is a gap between 1946 and 1950 - I find almost no coke bottles with these dates.  In 1950 they start appearing again with Japanese glass manufacturing marks.  I suspect they reused the WW2 era coke bottles until supply dried up (non-returns/broken) at which time they started shipping in new stock. Depending on where you found them, they were probably either dumped from ships in the harbor or trash bulldozed off the cliff (like Shark Pit area).  I am friends with the manager of Sumay Cove Marina and he swims in the old sea plane channel and finds them there also. I'm still looking for the Holy Grail (AGANA GUAM embossed bottle).  I had some health issues over the last 8 months that kept me out of the jungle but I hope to get back to it hard and heavy since I'm transferring this summer - time is running out. -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Dave: Good to hear from you. I haven't discovered anything new and it appears that it's up to you military guys to save the day again as you so often do. So the ball is still in your court and I hope you eventually find the "Holy Grail" you mentioned - surely there's one laying around there somewhere? Good luck and please keep us posted. Bob Here's the Agana Guam bottle again to remind us that they do in fact exist ...


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 10, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

I haven't researched this topic lately and thought I'd take a quick look around. I found this snippet from a 1939 copy of the "Guam Reporter" newspaper and thought it was most interesting. I wonder why they had to use "rain water?"


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## daven2nl (Jan 11, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Back in the pre-war years there was one reservoir that served the Agana area - Fonte dam and reservoir.  During times of heavy rain, apparently the reservoir could get silted up so the water quality wasn't the greatest.  After the war, wells came online, but much of the Agana surrounding areas were swamp and rice patties so I can imagine water was somewhat of a commodity.  City water as we know it didn't exist until relatively recent times (in the last 50 year or so).  During the rainy season plenty of water could have been collected this way... we get about 90 inches of rain a year here.  FYI before I depart Guam this summer I hope to get that museum bottle out from behind the display glass so I can check the date and get some better photos.  My gut feeling is that the Agana bottles are very old - perhaps from the initial days of coke bottling on Guam.  I have found two bottles from 1940 - these differ from the stateside bottles of the time because they only have "TRADE MARK" embossed, not PAT-D.  I believe this matches the bottles used for overseas bottling elsewhere which makes sense, because Guam is an overseas territory.  If this is the case, the AGANA GUAM bottles may be even more rare. -Dave


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## duanekiszak (Jan 12, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Here is the numbers and embossing on the 1944 and earlier bottles I got. They all have the vertical and horizontal O's overlapping. I will use capital O below for that symbol below. All these bottles were found underwater in the harbor in Guam. 

Green bottles- all have the patent D info on them
31 O 42
44 O 42
8 O 42 OAKLAND CALIF embossed on the bottom
2 O 42
47 O 42
89 O 42
35 O 43 OAKLAND CALIF embossed on the bottom
67 O 43
54 O 43 SANFRANCISCO CALIF embossed on the bottom
8 O 43 OAKLAND CALIF embossed on the bottom
42 O 43
39 O 44
18 O 44
10 O 46 SANFRANISCO CALIF embossed on the bottom
9 O 46 SEATLE WASH embossed on the bottom
5 O 45 SANFRANISCO CALIF embossed on the bottom
1 O 40 NEW YORK NY embossed on the bottom
1 O 41 NEW YORK NY embossed on the bottom

Clear - all have patent D info on them

20 O 43
10 O 44
6P O 44
47 O 43
11 O 43
7 O 44
9 O 44
15 O 44
6B O 44


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## daven2nl (Jan 12, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

Duane,  those pre-1944 bottles are very intriguing, especially the ones without city embossing on the base.  Since Guam was occupied in December 1941, the NY NY bottles could have been here before the war started but the 1942/43 bottles must have come in after the liberation in July 1944.  The embossed bottles make sense - probably loaded out on a ship and dumped overboard at anchorage.  The ones without the embossing are the real question mark.  I thought the overseas bottles for troops were all clear and did not start production until 1943.  I thought all the earlier stateside bottles would have been embossed.  Interesting to say the least... The embossed ones I find in the jungle are 99% San Francisco, Oakland, Seattle, and Portland.  This is logical because that is where the supply ships heading to the Pacific theater were all loaded out. -Dave


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## SODAPOPBOB (Jan 13, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

As a sort of update, I thought the following aptly describes the two main topics involved with this thread ...
 [h2]Coca-Cola and the Military[/h2]
[URL=http://cocacolabottleman.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/coca-cola-and-the-military/]http://cocacolabottleman....cola-and-the-military/ 
 Coca-Cola has been with our military through the years, aboard ships with our Navy and found on bases across the globe. December 1941- Robert W. Woodruff announced The Coca-Cola Company’s wartime policy: “We will see that every man in uniform gets a bottle of Coca-Cola for five cents wherever he is and whatever it costs the Company.”  In 1943, General Dwight D. Eisenhower sent a telegram requesting 10 Mobile Bottling Plants be sent to the European war front. The Cablegram also requested that three million bottles and complete equipment necessary for producing the same quantity twice monthly be sent. Before 1944, small portable bottling units, capable of being hauled behind jeeps, were used. By 1944, more permanent installations showed up in the Pacific and European War Theaters. Bottle production began in 1943. The bottles were to be made using clear glass and no City/State markings on the bottom. There are two theories about why clear glass was used instead of the normal Coke Green in manufacturing these bottles. One was that it made the bottles easily identifiable as military bottles.  The other is that copper is needed to create the Coke Green glass and, due to a shortage of copper, it was necessary to manufacture them with clear glass. This latter theory may not be correct since all U.S. Coca-Cola bottles manufactured during the War years were in the standard Coke green glass. The first bottle manufactured in 1943 was simply the PAT’D D-105529 bottle in clear glass with no City/State markings. A new bottle mold could not be made quickly to allow a different style bottle for Military use only. By 1944, the new style bottle began production with the word ‘TRADEMARK’ below the Coca-Cola script. This bottle was produced until 1946. Over 5,000,000,000 bottles were served to our troops during WWII.


~ * ~
 [h1]Chester Carl Butler Brought Coca-Cola to Guam[/h1]http://guampedia.com/chester-carl-butler/
 Chester Carl Butler (1884 – 1952) founded Butler’s Inc. In 1915, along with his wife Ignacia Bordallo Butler. It survives today as the oldest family business on Guam. Butler is best known for opening the first Coca-Cola franchise outside the continental United States. He also owned and operated the popular Butler’s Soda Fountain and Butler’s Emporium in Hagåtña. He and his wife, two of Guam’s earliest business pioneers, were inducted as laureates in the Guam Chamber of Commerce Hall of Fame in 1996. Butler came to Guam as a sailor from Texas, purchasing a soda-making machine after getting out of the Navy and starting a carbonated soft-drink business in 1915. He manufactured and bottled fruit-flavored seltzer drinks, root beer and ginger ale which became very popular on Guam. He then met Ignacia Pangelinan Bordallo when she was only seventeen years old. A year later the two were married. They had five children: James, Beatrice (now Sister Martha of Jesus and Mary), Clara Mae, Benjamin and Dorothy, known as “Dolly” (now Sister Carmencita of the Infant Jesus). Together the two entrepreneurs started Butler’s Incorporated and made it a success for many years. The reputation for Butler’s great-tasting soda pop grew throughout the island, and the bottling company became a success. In 1923, Chester Butler traveled to Atlanta, Georgia and obtained a franchise for a new brand of cola drink known as Coca-Cola. The Coca-Cola Company was young and eager to introduce its product into new markets, and thus Butler was granted the first license to manufacture and sell the product outside the continental U.S. The Coca-Cola franchise brought even more success to Butler’s, and they upgraded their original bottling plant and installed modern equipment, including Guam’s first automated conveyor assembly line. Within a few years, Butler’s became synonymous with the popular Coke brand. In the early 1930s, they added to their growing business the Butler’s Merchandise Retail Store in Hagåtña, several warehouses, and the Gaiety Theater also in Hagåtña, one of only two movie theaters on Guam at the time. In 1936 the couple opened Butler’s Emporium in Hagåtña, a dry goods store featuring major U.S. Franchises such as the popular picture weeklies Life, Post, Collier’s, Newsweek and Time magazines, General Electric, and Hamm’s Beer. Butler’s Soda Fountain, located inside the Emporium, was the most popular ice cream spot on Guam before World War II. The Butlers also started Guam’s first commercial radio station, K6LG. It only operated a few hours a day, with their son Benny at the microphone. He entertained his small audiences with music and commentary and sometimes had his aunt, popular singer and pianist Rosalia Pangelinan Lanford, perform live. The station didn’t last long as most people didn’t have radios.[h2]POW in Japan[/h2]When World War II started in 1941, Chester Butler was one of the American citizens taken to Japan as a prisoner of war. He was interned in a prison camp in Japan. When he returned to Guam after the war his businesses were in ruins. The bottling plant, movie theater and Butler’s Emporium were completely destroyed during the American bombardment of Hagåtña in 1944, and the re-established American naval government took possession of most of his property in Hagåtña. The Coca-Cola Company, by then a powerful corporation, also tried to take back its franchise from the Butlers, but Chester Butler filed a suit against the company and won the settlement out of court. He retained the franchise but didn’t regain his businesses. His health had also been failing since his long internment in Japan and he died on February 14, 1952. Chester Butler was active in the community during his time on Guam. In 1924, he organized and was a founding member of the Guam Chamber of Commerce. He was also a charter member of the Elks Club and the Charter President of the Rotary Club of Tumon in 1939.


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## daven2nl (Jan 13, 2014)

*Re:  RE: Agana Guam Hobbleskirt Coke*

I exchanged emails with one of the Butler grandchildren who still owns and operates the Butler store here on Guam.  Unfortunately he didn't know too much about the Coca Cola history on Guam specifically.  He also did not have any of the Agana bottles I've been looking for.


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