# Hey guys, any body ever seen this iron pontiled barrel shaped beer or brewery bottle from Belleville Illinois? Can only find reference to the brewery



## Johnny M (Sep 26, 2022)

Hey guys, any body ever seen this iron pontiled barrel shaped beer or brewery bottle from Belleville Illinois? Can only find reference to the brewery as being established in  the 1850's by the Herberer Brothers City Park Brewery in Belleville. This bottle is embossed: "T. Heberer (not Herberer) & Bros. Belleville Ills." Bottle has a smooth label panel under the name and the rest is paneled or sided like an actual barrel. Nice iron pontil too! A little sick inside only. An easy tumble and very heavy glass. Stands about 9 1/2" tall.


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## hemihampton (Sep 26, 2022)

NO, I never seen one before.


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## UnderMiner (Sep 26, 2022)

Never seen or heard of it before. Did you find it in a river, or did you dig for it?


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## Johnny M (Sep 26, 2022)

It was mixed in a box lot that looked like a guy just picked up bottles he knew were old but didn't discriminate between abms and pontils. It was definitely out of place between cobalt Vicks vapo rub bottles and slick crown sodas and a few BIM slick meds. There was a Kilmers swamp root though. and a beat up milk


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## UnderMiner (Sep 26, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> It was mixed in a box lot that looked like a guy just picked up bottles he knew were old but didn't discriminate between abms and pontils. It was definitely out of place between cobalt Vicks vapo rub bottles and slick crown sodas and a few BIM slick meds. There was a Kilmers swamp root though. and a beat up milk


Great score! Did you take the Dr. Kilmer's as well?


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## Johnny M (Sep 26, 2022)

Yup! Reminds me of the first one I ever bought at about age 11. I went to a rural 5th grade school and on recess I saw some guys throwing a bottle around that they found in the bushes and it was an abm kilmers with the debossed kidney shape and later remedy embossing. I begged to buy it with some of my lunch money and it cost me 15 cents because it was cracked


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## hemihampton (Sep 26, 2022)

The Title for your post probably the longest one ever in here.


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## UncleBruce (Sep 26, 2022)

I have seen these. Your example is in good condition.  Are you interested in parting with it?  I collect beers and this would go well with the collection.  Don't know if it actually held beer as the shape IMO would not hold any pressure well.  May have held a different product bottled by the company.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

hemihampton said:


> The Title for your post probably the longest one ever in here.


My bad


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

UncleBruce said:


> I have seen these. Your example is in good condition.  Are you interested in parting with it?  I collect beers and this would go well with the collection.  Don't know if it actually held beer as the shape IMO would not hold any pressure well.  May have held a different product bottled by the company.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

I think I'm gonna hold on to it for now. It's thick glass,shaped like a beer barrel and has ties to a known brewery from the time period being iron pontiled. They sold beer barrel shaped bottles in the 1960s and 1970s so the shape is familiar to the industry. Will keep you in mind


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## sandchip (Sep 27, 2022)

I swear I saw one like it at auction a few years back, but I can't remember if the embossing was the same.  Exceptional piece and one helluva score.  Gotta be a rare one.  I'd dang well put it on the shelf, too.  Best bottle I've seen on ABN in a while!


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## CanadianBottles (Sep 27, 2022)

Wow, that's an incredible find!  Especially considering it was mixed in with a box of commons.  That's the sort of thing I dream of coming across someday.


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## saratogadriver (Sep 27, 2022)

Great form, great embossing, nice age with the iron pontil.   Sounds like a good town as well.  Awesome find, especially in with abms.

Jim G


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

saratogadriver said:


> Great form, great embossing, nice age with the iron pontil.   Sounds like a good town as well.  Awesome find, especially in with abms.
> 
> Jim G


Yeah. I was excited to find it but more so to introduce it to the bottle world where it will eventually find a safe and proper home. Looks to be a significant example for the hobby.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

CanadianBottles said:


> Wow, that's an incredible find!  Especially considering it was mixed in with a box of commons.  That's the sort of thing I dream of coming across someday.


Yes I was certainly thrilled. It's definitely a significant example that needs to be recorded in the brewery bottles archives.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

sandchip said:


> I swear I saw one like it at auction a few years back, but I can't remember if the embossing was the same.  Exceptional piece and one helluva score.  Gotta be a rare one.  I'd dang well put it on the shelf, too.  Best bottle I've seen on ABN in a while!


Yeah, I am proud to have rescued  it from an old box being banged around and introduced it to the hobby.


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## DavidW (Sep 27, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> Hey guys, any body ever seen this iron pontiled barrel shaped beer or brewery bottle from Belleville Illinois? Can only find reference to the brewery as being established in  the 1850's by the Herberer Brothers City Park Brewery in Belleville. This bottle is embossed: "T. Heberer (not Herberer) & Bros. Belleville Ills." Bottle has a smooth label panel under the name and the rest is paneled or sided like an actual barrel. Nice iron pontil too! A little sick inside only. An easy tumble and very heavy glass. Stands about 9 1/2" tall.


That bottle is shown in the book "Bottled in Illinois: Embossed bottles and bottle products of early Illinois merchants from Chicago to Cairo 1840-1880" (Kenneth B. Farnsworth and John A. Walthall, 2011) on page 119. 
 The Heberer brewery was in business from the 1850s until 1865 when the government shut it down when Adam Heberer was arrested for tax evasion. The brewery was later run by others and eventually shut down completely in 1873 (this is according to the info in the Farnsworth book).  He estimated the bottle dated from around 1859.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

Well there you have it. Wish I had that book or a pic of that page in it.Thanks so much for your response.  Did the author have any guides as to how particularly rare it is? I had a response where a fellow claims to have seen a few of these.


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## Merle (Sep 27, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> Well there you have it. Wish I had that book or a pic of that page in it.Thanks so much for your response.  Did the author have any guides as to how particularly rare it is? I had a response where a fellow claims to have seen a few of these.


There’s one for sale on eBay right now. 4 hrs left. I spent 75.00 on mine and looks like it gonna sale for al lot less than I paid


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## hemihampton (Sep 27, 2022)

I had a rare bottle posted on here before, supposably only one known. Then you always get some clown say oh my buddy's dug 30 of those before or I had a privy full of them but left behind because broken or some story like that. It's gotta be a real tough one. Alot of Breweries from that time frame would just bottle there Beer in a recycled European Bottle & slap there own paper label on it. seen it done before. Not to many American & embossed Beer Bottles exist from 1850's in my opinion. Nice find. LEON.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

hemihampton said:


> I had a rare bottle posted on here before, supposably only one known. Then you always get some clown say oh my buddy's dug 30 of those before or I had a privy full of them but left behind because broken or some story like that. It's gotta be a real tough one. Alot of Breweries from that time frame would just bottle there Beer in a recycled European Bottle & slap there own paper label on it. seen it done before. Not to many American & embossed Beer Bottles exist from 1850's in my opinion. Nice find.





hemihampton said:


> I had a rare bottle posted on here before, supposably only one known. Then you always get some clown say oh my buddy's dug 30 of those before or I had a privy full of them but left behind because broken or some story like that. It's gotta be a real tough one. Alot of Breweries from that time frame would just bottle there Beer in a recycled European Bottle & slap there own paper label on it. seen it done before. Not to many American & embossed Beer Bottles exist from 1850's in my opinion. Nice find. LEON.


Thanks. I wasn't trying to wave a cool bottle around to boast. I just rescued it from the world of non collectors and was seeking info on it. I figured it was good


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks.


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## hemihampton (Sep 27, 2022)

Seeking Info, OK, Heres what I got. a 1858 & 1859  Illinois State Directory shows a list of Brewers & I see no Thomas Heberer. I do have a Illinois State Directory from 1868 that shows a Thomas Heberer as a Brewer. The Earliest I could find of him Brewing was from 1860. His Brothers were  Adam & Henry.


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## hemihampton (Sep 27, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> Thanks. I wasn't trying to wave a cool bottle around to boast. I just rescued it from the world of non collectors and was seeking info on it. I figured it was good


Wasn't saying you were boasting, was trying to say alot of times when somebody has or finds a rare bottle some people wanta try to rain on your Parade by trying to imply it's not as rare as you think by saying they seen lots of them when they haven't. It's happened to me. LEON.


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

hemihampton said:


> Seeking Info, OK, Heres what I got. a 1858 & 1859  Illinois State Directory shows a list of Brewers & I see no Thomas Heberer. I do have a Illinois State Directory from 1868 that shows a Thomas Heberer as a Brewer. The Earliest I could find of him Brewing was from 1860. His Brothers were  Adam & Henry.View attachment 240240View attachment 240241


Thanks! Everybody has been very helpful. This is a great forum for us bottle heads! LOL


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## Johnny M (Sep 27, 2022)

hemihampton said:


> Wasn't saying you were boasting, was trying to say alot of times when somebody has or finds a rare bottle some people wanta try to rain on your Parade by trying to imply it's not as rare as you think by saying they seen lots of them when they haven't. It's happened to me. LEON.


Understood.Didnt mean to imply any offense from your comments.I know the scenario. First they say it's not too rare then they ask if you want to " get rid " of it in a quick sale before you are enlightened on its actual availability.


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## DavidW (Sep 29, 2022)

Merle said:


> There’s one for sale on eBay right now. 4 hrs left. I spent 75.00 on mine and looks like it gonna sale for al lot less than I paid


Johnny M, this book is written from a strict "archeology standpoint" and does not list rarity or suggest values.  However, my vague "feel" is that the Heberer bottle is extremely rare. I would doubt there are no more than 5-6 in existence, and possibly only 3 or 4????    But is it very hard to know, since lots of collectors have bottles stashed away that no one else knows about, or they are secretive of what they own.   
Idea:   Maybe somebody should contact Dave Beeler (everybody knows him, he has dug in the St. Louis area for decades) so he might have a better idea on rarity onthe Heberer bottle.  

 I see no copies of that having been sold on ebay recently.   There are only a handful of copies available on the web, and sadly there seems to be no plans to reprint the book.  It sure seems like the publisher *should *print another batch of books (for the serious collector).   I bought a copy several weeks ago and paid around $120.00 ( total including shipping and tax).  Great book.  And I don't have one single bottle in the entire book.  I bought it just to add to my glass/bottle books reference collection.  
Crammed full of great background info  Most of the bottles shown are (I think) pretty rare, and many are older than what I typically see in the average antique store or bottle show.   
Anyhow this book has 792 pages and is SO HEAVY if it was dropped on your head from a second floor window it would likely kill you.
  Here are the copies still available (via bookfinder). I am NOT connected with the publisher or writer!! https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?...o%2C%201840-1880%20studies%20in%20archaeology


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## Johnny M (Sep 29, 2022)

DavidW said:


> Johnny M, this book is written from a strict "archeology standpoint" and does not list rarity or suggest values.  However, my vague "feel" is that the Heberer bottle is extremely rare. I would doubt there are no more than 5-6 in existence, and possibly only 3 or 4????    But is it very hard to know, since lots of collectors have bottles stashed away that no one else knows about, or they are secretive of what they own.
> Idea:   Maybe somebody should contact Dave Beeler (everybody knows him, he has dug in the St. Louis area for decades) so he might have a better idea on rarity onthe Heberer bottle.
> 
> I see no copies of that having been sold on ebay recently.   There are only a handful of copies available on the web, and sadly there seems to be no plans to reprint the book.  It sure seems like the publisher *should *print another batch of books (for the serious collector).   I bought a copy several weeks ago and paid around $120.00 ( total including shipping and tax).  Great book.  And I don't have one single bottle in the entire book.  I bought it just to add to my glass/bottle books reference collection.
> ...


Wow. I appreciate your recommendations and advice. I'm sure it's rare due to age and  belonging specific brewery.All respondents seem to agree. Im tickled to have plucked it from obscurity for collectors of these type of bottles. Sounds like a really good book to own if you are interested in bottles from that area particularly and it's certainly a great book just to have in a library.It sounds like a real intensive work and a commendable effort by the authors. Thanks for your input. Johnny M


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## stlouisbottles (Oct 5, 2022)

The Bottle is Rare! I collect Belleville Illinois bottles and I’ve been looking for one. If you decide you want to sell it let me know. Are you local to the area?


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## Johnny M (Oct 6, 2022)

Hi.


stlouisbottles said:


> The Bottle is Rare! I collect Belleville Illinois bottles and I’ve been looking for one. If you decide you want to sell it let me know. Are you local to the area?. I'm


I


stlouisbottles said:


> The Bottle is Rare! I collect Belleville Illinois bottles and I’ve been looking for one. If you decide you want to sell it let me know. Are you local to the area?


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## Johnny M (Oct 6, 2022)

Johnny M said:


> Hi. I'm from CT. I'm probably gonna get it tumbled and park it on a shelf for a while. I will keep interested parties in mind. I'm not sure how valuable it is. Can't find an auction record either and nobody has thrown me a number. It's a great looking bottle for sure. Glad I saved it from being bounced around in a box lot of basically junk!


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## stlouisbottles (Oct 6, 2022)

$$$$


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## stlouisbottles (Oct 8, 2022)

Johnny, Can you email me at stlouissoda@aol.com 
Thank you!


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## sandchip (Oct 8, 2022)

If you ever sell it, you'd be wise to run it through one of Pastor's auctions to get maximum exposure and top dollar.  That bottle checks a lot of boxes in its crossover appeal to collectors in several categories.  Even if you only collect barrels, it would look great in a run of different barrel molds.  Wonderful score, man.


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## Johnny M (Oct 8, 2022)

sandchip said:


> If you ever sell it, you'd be wise to run it through one of Pastor's auctions to get maximum exposure and top dollar.  That bottle checks a lot of boxes in its crossover appeal to collectors in several categories.  Even if you only collect barrels, it would look great in a run of different barrel molds.  Wonderful score, man.


Thanks. I actually had him here a couple of weeks or so ago and showed him the bottle to see what he knew on the same day I nabbed it. You basically covered all the bases with his thoughts. He was flabbergasted that it popped up and volunteered to make some inquiries and recommend a cleaner although he said he probably wouldn't touch it because it's not wicked crapped up. I gave him some bottles for his next auction and pledged to let him manage the sale when I was ready. He said it's going to be a featured find in his catalog for sure.He has always. treated me honestly,respectfully and completely professionaly and always garners great prices as he does a stellar job marketing bottles consigned to him for his auctions.He also comes to you on consignment runs as he plots a route and plans a stop to personally see you and pick up the bottles. I gave him 6 pickles a few auctions ago and got great prices . Great bottles are few and far between and I'm not getting any younger so I strive to get the best return I can on bottles I invested heavily in over the years. I appreciate your thoughts and advice. You are obviously a respectable collector and your candor and integrity are quite evident to me.


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